1993 03 08CH~NH~SSEN CZTY COUNCZL
REGULAR MEETING
MARCH 8, 1993
Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Wing, Councilwoman Dockendorf,
Councilman Mason and Councilman Senn
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Todd Gerhardt, Charles Folch,
Paul Krauss, Sharmin Al-Jarl, 3o Ann Olsen, and Scott Hart
APPROVAL OF AGENOA: Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Oockendorf seconded to
approve the agenda with the following additions: Mayor Chmiel added a Visitor
presentation by representatives from School District ~112, and Councilman Mason
wanted to discuss an item from the Administrative Section under Council
Presentations. All voted in favor of the agenda as amended and the motion
carried.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS; None.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the
following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
a. Approve Variance to Construction Work Hours Restriction for MnDot Trunk
Highway 212 and Trunk Highway 101 Overlay Project.
b. Resolution ~3-14: Approve Resolution Authorizing Exercise of Option to
Purchase Certain Real Property, Tanadoona Drive, Zimmerman Property.
c. Resolution ~3-15: Award of Bids: Public Works Vehicle and Equipment
d. Set Date for Board of Equalization and Review.
e. Stone Creek First Addition, 8400 Galpin Boulevard, Hans Hagen, Project 92-9: 1) Approve Development Contract
2) Approve Construction Plans and Specifications
f. Willow Ridge Second Addition, South of Lake Lucy Road 500 feet West of
Powers Boulevard, Lundgren Brothers, Project 93-4:
1) Final Plat Approval
2) Approve Development Contract
3) Approve Construction Plans and Specifications
g. Adopt Senior Commission Bylaws.
i. Approval of Accounts
j. City Council Minutes dated February 22, 1993 Planning Commission Minutes dated February 17, 1993
Park and Recreation Commission Minutes dated February 26, 1993
City Council Meeting - March 8, i993
k. Approve Contract for Engineering Services, Fox Path SWMP Project
1. City Code Amendment Regarding Subdivision and Park and Trail Dedication
Fees, Flnal Readlng
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
H. ZONING ORDINANCE AHENDHENT T_.__QO AHEND SECTION 20-1023, HEIGHT OF FENCES AND
SECTION 20-1019, L__OCATION OF FENCES, FINAL READING.
Councilman Senn: I would like to move approval of (h) with one change. That
change is that the front yard fence helght be at 3 1/2 feet. However, if they
open or open mesh type of fence ls used, it would be increased to the 6 1/2
feet. I've had an opportunity to talk to Sharmin about that and I belleve we're
in agreement. That that doesn't cause any problems. In fact, I thlnk we both
like it because it in effect encourages people to use more open types of fenclng
versus enclosed or stockade types of fencing. So wlth that one change I would
move approval.
Hayor Chmiel: Okay, any other discussion?
Councilwoman Oockendorf: Well I guess when I was reading this I thought, why
can't we do what Maple Grove does and just say no chalnllnk? I hate chainllnk
fences and that seems to be pushlng it even further in the direction of
encouraging tall chalnllnk fences if you say mesh. How would anyone else feel
about that issue?
Councilman Senn: Colleen, I guess I'm not quite sure how we differentiate it.
The thing I would like to see more of is the, I wouldn't want to discourage
somebody from comlng in wlth let's say brlck or wood columns and wrought 1ton
fencing or something like that. That's what I mean more in terms of the open
or the open mesh. If there's a way to delineate that, I wouldn't have a problem
with that myself. Is there a way?
Sharmln Al-Jarl: If you want to just say that chainlink fences should be no
longer used in Chanhassen.
Councilman Wing: In front yards.
Sharmin A1-Jaff: In front yards.
Councilman Senn: Or I mean they'd be restricted to the, what are they
restricted to now, 4 feet or whatever? Or 3 1/2.
Sharmin Al-Jarl: Rlght now they're 6 1/2 feet.
Mayor' Chmiel: Front yards basically are 3.
Sharmln A1-Jaff: 4 feet.
Mayor Chmiel: Or 4. My concern with those more specifically on intersections
or corners. What happens if people want to have some slats put lnto those
fences? What does that do with the safety aspect withln those corners?
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Councilman Senn: weii again, they can't put a fence in the, Z mean as Z
understand the new ordinance, they can't put a fence in the vision angle anyway.
Paul Krauss: That's true. There is a separate part of the ordinance that deals
with that.
Councilman Senn: Yeah. So there's no conflict there as I would see it.
I hesitate wiping out, you know I hesitate wiping chainlink, at least myself
totally in a front yard because I think there's probably some cases it's
appropriate where people need to confine children or whatever else. Along busy
streets or whatever and maybe it's the most appropriate. ! guess I don't know
for sure. ~ mean again, it's one of those types of fencing I don't get real
excited about either but I would guess that a prohibition would cause us
problems but Z wouldn't have any problem leaving chainlink at the existing 4
feet and talk about other types of mesh or open fencing being.
Hayor Chmiel: Just as long as we remove that 1 foot of barb up on top, it's
okay.
Councilman Senn: Yeah, only if it's electrified.
Councilman Hason: So we need some kind of wording then? To reflect that and
then we'll be done?
Hayor Chmiel: I think that'd be right. Do you have some appropriate language
for that Sharmin?
Sharmin A1-Jaff: How about if we leave number 2 as is and then add wrought iron
fences may not exceed 6 1/2 feet within front yards?
Roger Knutson: If that's what you want.
Councilman Senn: How about wrought iron or other open types of fencing
excepting chainlink? Or something like that. Especially if chainlink's in
consideration, let's just except that directly and that still falls under the
other part then.
Roger Knutson: You can just provide that, any open mesh type fence, except
chainlink, shall not exceed 6 feet in height. Chainlink fences may not exceed 4
feet in height.
Councilman Senn: So moved.
~ayor Chmiel: Do you have that?
Sharmin Al-Jarl: Yes I do.
Councilman Wing: Second.
Councilman Senn moved, Councilman #~ng seconded to approve the final reading of
Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Amend Section 20-1023, Hetght of Fences as amended
by the City Attorney adding the following langage, any open mesh type fence,
except chainlink, shal! not exceed & feet in height. Chainlink fences may not
City Council Meeting -- March 8, 1993
exceed 4 feet in height; and Sectin 20-1019, Location of Fences. All voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
H. APPROVAL GAHBLING PERNIT APPLICATION, CHANHASSEN LIONS CLUB.
Councilwoman Oockendorf: Quick and easy. I, as a matter of principle, I don't
want my name being put to approval of a gambling application. So I'd be
opposed.
Councilman Wing: This is for the 4th of July, a one day permit, right?
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. It's a one day permit which they've had for many, many
years.
Councilman Senn: It's basically the Bingo thing?
Mayo)- Chmiel: No.
Councilman Wing: Raffles? ...you might ask Mr. Hart specifically, what is this
all about?
Scott Hart: Gambling?
Councilman Wing: This is pretty standard.
Scott Hart: An application for pulltabs. Similar to what the Legion does but
this one's at Pauly's with the Chaska Llons. Or Chart Lions, pardon me. Most of
the regulations, Councilwoman Oockendorf are requlred by the State and Mr.
Sloss is here on behalf of the group and he's gone through the class and about a
year ago we changed the ordinance to maintaln more control over who's runnlng
gambling operations in town. Requiring a certain percent to be donated back to
the city and making sure that clty residents are benefitting from the proceeds.
Councilwoman Oockendorf: I'm sure it's on the up and up. I just, as a matter
of principle, any gambllng application that comes before me, I'm golng to do my
small part to oppose.
Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Councilman Wing: Don, I guess I reread this. When I saw the 4th of July, for
some reason I re].ated it to the city and that's not it. They're going to set
this up at Pauly's on a regular basls?
Scott Hart: Correct.
Councilman Senn: Scott, is this new or has it been there?
Scott Hart: No, this is a new one.
Councilman Senn: Oh, it's a new one.
City Council Meeting - March 8, lgH3
Scott Hart: Correct.
Councilman Wing: The only other one that has it is the Legion right now?
Scott Hart: Correct.
Councilman Senn: Thls ls the flrst one golng lnto in effect a prlvate, let's
call it a prlvate establishment?
Scott Hart: Yes.
Don Ashworth: Well if I may clarlfy. They have had it in Pauly's from several
years back and similarly in Pony Express.
Councilman Senn: Pulltabs?
Don Ashworth: Right. Maybe not this particular person but the actual sales has
occurred there in previous years.
Scott Hart: I've not dealt with those specifically but I'm sure that's the
case. But this is a new one for this group.
Mayor Chmlel: Rlght. And I mlght add that if these are operated accordingly,
it does beneflt the city because they often times do different things for the
city such as the Legion has done. Putting up in our Lake Ann Park, our shelter
portion where foods and things can be served and so on.
Councilman Wlng: I need to clarify too, because I can't. This ls permitted
under State and City ordinance both?
Scott Hart: Correct.
Councilman Wlng: And only a small percentage can actually go to the
organization. A large percentage has to go back to the City specific, is that
rlght Scott, or just charitable?
Scott Hart: Well charitable organizations but our ordinance sets forth a
speclflc amount, I thlnk it's 10~ from the proceeds mlnlmum will have to be
returned to the city.
Councilman Senn: How many do we have?
Scott Hart: In operation right now in the City? Just at the Legion.
Councilman Senn: So it's just at the Legion?
Scott Hart: Right, yeah.
Councilman Senn: So again, thls is the only prlvate establishment that we have.
Mayor Chmiel: Rlght. Correct.
Councilman Senn: It has been occurring there for several.
City Council Meeting -- March 8, 1993
Don 4shuorth: Chaska Lions operated it I would say for close to lO years.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Okay, being that you're not for it, I'm going to make the
motion to approve the Chanhassen Lions Club gambling application. Is there a
second?
Councilman Senn: I'll second it.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved arid seconded. Any other discussion?
Councilman Mason: Just a quick comment. I share with Colleen's concerns and I
think clearly now we're starting to, there's some research out there that says
it appears that people that have the least amount of money are spending the most
money gambllng and my guess is that people that go to pauly's and the Leglon are
going to be golng there one way or the other and spendlng thelr money there, so
this kind of thing doesn't concern me like some of the other gambling. 6oDd for
you. I'm done.
Resolution ~93-1G: Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilman Senn seconded to approve the
Chanhassen Lions Club Gambling Application. All voted in favor except
Councilwoman Dockendorf who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to
1.
VISITOR PRESENTATION:
Mayor Chmiel: We do have Dr. Susan, would you please step forward and inform us
as to what is golng to be happening within School District ~112.
Dr. Susan Hagstrom: Thank you Mr. Mayor, and members of the Clty of Chanhassen
City Council. I appreciate the opportunity to be here this evening to talk to
you about the needs and upcoming events in School District ~112. I would like
to introduce my colleage, Joe Betz. Joe is a member of the Citizens Committee,
affectionately known as our Kid's Committee, and Joe is chafing the City of
chanhassen bond referendum campaign effort and will make just a few brief
comments after I finish the presentation. I would like to use the overhead
projector and the screen if that's possible. Can I take a minute to just kind
of take my slides over there?
Mayor Chmiel: Certainly.
Dr. Susan Hagstrom: Thanks. This is a wonderful facility. I've not been here
before.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Dr. Susan Hagstrom: You should be very proud of it. Thank you very much. I'm
a relatively new resident in the Chanhassen area. I moved here in December of
'g2. Or 'gl actually so Z've been here a little over a year and what I've
noticed in just the past one year is that our community in Eastern Carver County
ls growlng by leaps and bounds. Z have a frlend who 1lyes in Chanhassen who
says that, in School Dlstrict ~112 we have city trafflc on country roads and I'd
like to begln [he presentation this evening by talklng a little bit about the
crowded conditions in our community that are evidenced most obviously at our
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Middle School recently, but very much at School District ~112. We are fortunate
to haue some very talented staff members on our faculty and the artistic
renderings you see here are done by David Zander who ls an art teacher at our
new school. Jonathan Elementary School, and he shows the problem that we are
experiencing in 01strict ~112. Our enrollment is growing by leaps and bounds.
We have a current capacity of approximately 4,616 students and we are expecting
?,000 students by the year 2000. As you can see in 1984 the becket, whlch is
School 01strict ~112 facilities was comfy, as our School Superintendent Oave
Clough describes lt. By 1992, thls fall, we are full and nearly full to
overflowing. As a matter of fact, we are really one classroom short this year
but we've managed to move students. Several sectlons of 5th grade students came
over from Chaska Elementary to Chanhassen Elementary. Some of you may be aware
of that, thls past fall. But by the year 2000 you can see that the situation
becomes really very difficult and nearly impossible. When the Board realized
approximately a year ago that our projections were in fact not as accurate as we
would like to have them be, in the fall of 1991 we were expecting 200 new
students and 400 arrlved. At that point we de¢lded that we needed to do
something very significantly different in terms of our projections so the Board
commissioned several pleces of research. The flrst was a demographic study
conducted by Or. Barbara Lukerman who ls on the faculty at the Humphrey
Institute. She's a very well known demographer in the Twln Cities area and has
done some work for the Metropolitan Council. Her task was to answer the
question, how many students do we have and can we expect in the near future. We
also conducted a facility inventory and that was done by the £0S Architects
flrm. They bullt our Jonathan Elementary and they helped us determine that we
could accommodate with our current facilities approximately 4,616 students. They
answered the question for us, how much room do we really have. We also then put
together an education plan which is ktnd of a culmination of a number of studies
that had been done in the district over the last probably 10 years and it
answers the question, what do we want to do for students in the future. After
those three studles were completed, the Board appointed a facility planning task
force with a number of staff members, citizens, and ¢lty and county officials.
This committee studles for 7 months. They held public hearlngs and they
actually reviewed 17 different proposals for how to solve the problem. Here's
the solution that they recommended, whlch the Board of Olstrict ~112 has
adopted. They recommended that in order to solve the problem we should build a
new High School for grades 10-12. We should convert the current High School to
a Middle School for grades 8-9. We should convert the current Mlddle School
which now houses grades, 6, 7, and 8 to a school houslng grades 6.and 7. And
that we should build a new elementary school for grades 1-5 and update and
repair all of our older buildings. I have some enrollment figures to support
that recommendation. And these sort of surround the years that you saw the
beekers representing. In 1986 our enrollment was just over 3,200 students. We
had a capacity of just under 3,500 at that point. We were very comfortable. We
had some extra space and we had the capaclty to grow. We were no classrooms
short at that point. This fall, with an enrollment of 4,648 and a capacity of
4,616, we're 32 students over capacity but we've managed to accommodate that.
Being one classroom short is not a serious crisis but it's changing rapidly. I
should just comment on the capacity change between '86 and '92. '86 was prior
to the rennovation of our Early Childhood Center and also to the building of
Jonathan Elementary. By '96 you can see we will be nearly 1,600 students over
capacity. 58 classrooms short. And by the year 2000, we'll be 88 classrooms
City COLIncil Meeting -- March 8, 3.993
short with nearly 2,400 students which is more students over capacity than a
very large high school.
Hayor Chmiel: Susan, if I could ask. If you'd just stay to the far side of the
projector so the cdmera can pick this up for the TV.
Dr. Susan Hagstrom: Here?
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that'd be great.
Dr. Susan Hagstrom= Z'm sorry. Z didn't recognize your sign Don. Here's
another way of estimating, or actually depicting our rate of growth. This year
we expect to graduate approximately 290 seniors. Our current kindergarten class
however is 441 students. You can see when you have smaller classes leaving the
system and much larger ones entering, that you've got a problem. But the
additional compounding factor ~s that our current kindergarten class, by the
time the students become freshman in the year 2001, ue will have nearly 575 and
that's taking into account some conservative projections from the demographer,
and ~ know several of you in the city of Chanhassen have some concerns about how
conservative those projections were. Be that as it may, we still expect to grow
by that much, including the students who would come into our High School from
the non-public schools. 575 is nearly double 290 and we're very concerned about
that growth. The other concern ue have, several people in our community have
asked, why don't you just tack on some extra classrooms. You'd be able to
accommodate the students then if you add a wing here, add a wing there. One of
the concerns that ue have about that is our core facilities. The gymnasiums,
cafeterias, office spaces, halls and media centers were built during a period of
time prior to the advent of the computer lab and other speciality classrooms
that we use for art and music. So they were really built to support the
capacity of the building or less actually. And the computer lab has really
changed and [he use of classrooms for special programs, such as gifted education
and special education has really changed our capacity. So as you can see our
need is now, by next fall ~e'll be short 12 classrooms. By '94 we'll be short
27 and by '95 ue will be short 41 and '95 is the soonest ue could have a new
elementary school open if the voters approve our bond referendum on Tuesday,
March 30th. That's Tuesday, March 30th. By '96 we'll be short 58 classrooms
and that's the earliest year that we could have a high school open, if the
voters approve our bond referendum on liarch 30th. So the need is dire. The
situation is critical. So that's fine but, what will it cost. Here's the cost
breakdown for the school development project that the Board is offering. The
new high school is expected to cost approximately $28,671,000.00. Converting
the old high school to a middle school for grades 8 and 9 would cost
approximately $1,260,000.00. The new elementary school for grades 1-5 would
come in at just under $8.2 million. And to update and repair old schools, that
cost would be approximately $3.85 million. Technology. We need to update
technology in our older buildings so they can have a similar capacity to our
newer ones. ~e would need a million dollars to do that. And then other costs,
such as acquiring the site, for both the high school and the elementary school
and then the development costs for the district and various other costs that
relate to preparatJ, on of the documents and design, would come in at
approximately $1.6 million. That's for a total package of $46.5 million. I'll
briefly show you the tax impact breakdown and then I'll give you an opportunity
to ask questions if you wish. Here are the residentJ, al tax breakdowns and I
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
won't go through each of those for you because I do have a handout for you and
Joe, maybe this would be a good time to give members of the Council and the
audience our officlal Dlstrlct ~112 School Publication that has some questions
and answers and the tax impacts printed inside. An average home in District
~112 ls valued at approximately $104,000.00. So I'll just refer you to the
$100,000.00 market value figure on the middle of this table. The annual tax
lmpact is expected to be $148.00 wlth an approximate monthly tax lmpact of
$12.33. You can see for a $$0,000.00 home it's just under $5.00 a month. For a
$150,000.00 home, it's approximately $22.00 a month and those flgures are inslde
on the left page. Page 2. Some of you may be interested in the tax impact on
commercial and industrial property. Here's some cost figures for properties
ranging from $100,000.00 to $2 million. And here we have just the annual tax
lmpacts. They range from $350.00 all the way up to about $10,000.00. I also
have'a slide showlng the agricultural property tax impact. Here we show
properties at price polnts in market values of $100,000.00 up to approximately a
million. Those are the costs for a package that we believe would serve all
learners in Dlstrlct #112 extremely well and with that I thank you for your tlme
and would like to answer any questions you might have at this time, if that's
appropriate Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Chmlel: Thank you. Yes, it would be. Boes anyone have any speclfic
questions in relationship to some of the things that she brought up?
Councilman Mason: I have some comments but no questions so I'll wait.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay.
A1Klingelhutz: Are those flgures on homestead property or are they only
dealing with non-homestead properties?
Dr. Susan Hagstrom: They're on homestead property. On the agricultural figures
I'm not sure. I would have to check on that. I believe tt's homestead but I
would have to check on that to be sure. On the residential taxes it is
homestead.
Mayor Chmlel: I guess if there are no other discussions at this time or
questions.
Dr. Susan Hagstrom: Joe would like an opportunity to just comment for a moment
or two and I thank you for your time and attention and your support. See you on
March 30th.
Joe Betz: As one of the Co-Chairs for the referendum campaign, Z'd just like to
say that it's an extremely important thing for all of us here and for all of our
kids. As someone who's been in Chanhassen for many years and around qulte a
long time, we have seen many, many changes take place. This is just another one
that's come along. Zt's our responsibility as citizens of this community to
provide appropriate and adequate facilities to give our kids the education that
they need. Along with that I'd 11ke to bring your attention to two statements
that are actually in this document we handed out. On the back page is the
questlon that said, did the State approve the plans that the Distrlct sent for
review and comment? The answer is yes. The Commission of. Education, Gene
Mammenga has approved the District's plans with the following statement. "Based
City Council Meeting -- March 8, 1993
on the Department's analysis of the district's required documentation...the
Commissioner judges that the construction and other improvements to be
educationally and economically advisable." And then on the first page, a
statement by the Board Chair, Marjory Adams says, "The need couldn't be more
urgent. We are out of space and ue must build if ue are to be able to serve our
students." I think that's the message I'd like all of you to bring to the
citizens of Chan who are also members of District $112 to make sure that we get
out and vote yes and deliver the kinds of facilities our students will need.
Thank you for your time.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Joe. Any commen[s by Council?
Councilman Mason: I sincerely hope that the citizens of Chanhassen, regardless
of where they live in Chanhassen, get behind this. As a teacher in Eden
Prairie, I'm painfully aware of what growth can happen if the district isn't
prepared for it. In Eden Prairie, in the 6 years I've been there we've added a
1,200 student Middle School, IUD elementary schools, continuing remodeling on
the Middle School. Adding onto elementary school buildings. The population
wave is coming out this way and I don't think anyone likes to throw money around
loosely but if we're concerned about educating the children of Chanhassen. Well
not just of Chanhassen. District ~112. I see this as very important. As a
school teacher I would not want to be teaching, nor would I feel right about
teaching with a classroom of 35 kids or having 30 kids from 6;00 until noon and
30 more kids from noon until 6:00. It would not be a workable situation. So I
hope we can get people out to vote in the affirmative.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you Michael. Anyone else? Education, as everyone
knows is very important and even though we look at the slze of a referendum, the
referendum is going to provlde that kinds of education that the chlldren are
golng to need uithln our school dlstrlct so I would suggest that everyone who
has any questions, either contact the School Board or some of us on Council and
we'll be happy to get the answers back to you. Whatever they may be. So wlth
that we'll move right along with our agenda. Thanks for coming. Appreciate it.
Next 1rem is our publlc hearing.
Councilman Mason: I think there might have been another visitor presentation.
Mayor Chmiel: Oh! Okay. I'm sorry. I thought, would you like to come
forward? Please state your name and your address.
Mark Halla: My name is Mark Halla from Halla Nursery. My address is 770
Creekwood in Chaska mailing address actually. I'm here under Visitor
Presentation to simply discuss something and make you aware of a concern I have.
I talked with you Don earlier today on it. I talked with some city officials on
it. It's in reference to a planned sale of some trees to city residents. It
states in the recent literature that came from the city that the city is
planning to sell trees on a wholesale basis to any resident of the city that
desires to purchase such trees. I have a concern on this because, number one
I'm in the business of selling trees and obviously it effects my business if the
city is selling trees at a cost that I must pay for tile tree. I can't make
money and be in business if the city chooses to support...this is absolutely
excellent. I'm in the business. My family's been in the business for 51 years
rlow. I think that in itself says that we're interested in improving the
10
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
environment. That lt's been a good buslness for us. We enjoy lt. I enjoy it
personally. There's a lot of good things we can do. I look at businesses and
I thlnk of all the things that I could be dolng, this ls something that gives me
a lot of self satisfaction and I have an actual, I guess an ablement to improve
the environment and protect it. So I think it's a great business. I'd just
soon continue it. When the city decides that they want to do something like
thls, as much as I belleve in the cause, I think that's what local businesses
are for. I think the city's out of line to come in and interfere with the free
enterprise system. As a taxpayer ! firmly belleve that that makes me a client
of the city and that the client is there to serve my needs. They're not there
to compete wlth me in my dally business ventures of trylng to make a proflt.
I don't think you considered the full effects of this program on the local
businesses. I thlnk you've looked at it from the standpoint that it ls going to
lmprove the environment. Improve the local aesthetics of the clty and I think
that's great. I thlnk there are other methods that that can be done that don't
Interfere wlth local business. Some of the detrimental effects that this would
create for us would be loslng those sales of trees. Let's say for lnstance
sell 100 trees or 200 trees or 10 trees. Any tree that you sell may or may not
have been a potential sale for me. There are other businesses in Chanhassen.
Generally we've found from the information and the clientele that we have that
they came from local. And for those people now to be able to buy those trees at
the same cost that I must pay for them, if they aren't something I grew,
obviously is golng to take buslness away from me. There's no reason, unless
can compete with your price, that they would come directly to me. That's just
lsn't the way it would work. They would go through the city and buy that tree
for the same cost that I might sell it, or be able to'buy it for, excuse me.
I've been continually investing money in maklng my buslness more suitable to
meeting the needs of Chanhassen residents. 90X of our business comes from the
local trade. We've grown each year. Last year we dld just over a m1111on
dollars in business. We continue to spend quite a bit of money reinvesting in
our company in order to meet those future needs. I think that's evldent to
everyone. We've talked with the city before. We've currently put up some .
buildings. We've made a lot of improvements. In the last year alone I've
invested over $120,000.00 into improvement of my business. And it's hard to get
a return on investment when anyone comes along and starts selling my same
product at the cost that I must pay for it. In the free enterprise system, if
Lotus or...Market decldes to open thelr doors and compete wlth me, that's
understandable. That's fine. That's what keeps prices low for the community
and that's the way it should work. They have to pay overhead and aren't able to
tax clients in order to pay for that overhead and therefore we're going to be
competitive. We're golng to charge a fair price and a fair market value for the
goods, yet we're going to be competitive and that's where I think.the
competition should 11e. It shouldn't 'be between local businesses which are
paying taxes and supporting the city. We shouldn't'be, not only doing that but
then competing wlth you for the same business. I talked with the clty today and
I met some resistance from 3 people. Actually I heard.them say, fine. 3ust
glve the lowest bld. Then you won't have a problem. You'll get the buslness
anyway. Like I said earlier, I'm mainly a residential company. 99~ or more of
my business is done residentially. What I grow and sell myself are mainly
larger shade trees. When it comes down to the B and B trees, that you're
talklng about se111ng, inch and a half to 4 lnches is what I heard when I talked
with Todd Hoffman I believe it was earlier today, a lot of those I do buy in. I
buy them from other growers and I'm not able to compete. Some of the growers
11
City Council Meeting -- March 8, 1993
that you're putting this out to bid to are the same exact people that I buy from
on a regular basls. So to come in with the same bid would be saying if I pay so
and so for a tree, then I have to meet that price agaln. There's no way I can
compete. Not if you're getting bids from the growers that I use. On top of lt,
as I understand it from today's discussions, the bids aren't even golng just to
city businesses. They're going to whoever and anyone that's available to meet
the needs for those trees. I dlsagree ulth thls ldea. I thlnk lt's out of line
and there's no reason whatsoever that the clty should be lnvolved with selling
these trees. If they're golng to do lt, they certainly should be protecting
local businesses in the process or looking for a method to work with them. We
provlde the same products and services but we aren't able to tax our c11ents and
able to pay for our overhead. So obviously we would have to sell them at some
margin above our cost. I thlnk lt's out of place for the clty to initiate,
condone, or help with the sale of anything. Whether it's composting bins or
whatever. The clty's here to keep things golng to help the community be strong
and successful. They aren't here to participate in the sale of these goods.
Whether lt's at cost or not, whether they see any proflt or not, this clty
shouldn't be selling items to the public. They can get I guess what they want
or make the improvements vla different restrictions. Some solutions Z have to
the problem, Z thlnk I've voiced my concern on it well enough. You can use the
tax money, if you want to lmprove the environment and you want to improve the
Iooks of things, [tse the tax money to buy and install trees on boulevards. Come
up with a boulevard tree plantlng program that the clty's land ls improved.
Don't improve prlvate residerlces. That's for private businesses. We're there
to meet the needs of those people. Z'm all for you spending my tax money to
improve and build athletic fields. To landscape boulevards. Tree plantings
boulevards. To require more than i tree per slte on new buildings. You know
these are ways that you can get the same end product without alienating or
hurting local businesses. You can promote the installation of trees by
pubtLcally expressing their benefits. You can, there's a tot of research on it
and you can publlcally do that. That helps people think about lt. Zt helps
them desire to purchase the product and then let them purchase it from the local
businesses. Z think the city needs to Z guess focus a 11ttle more on standlng
with and behind the local businesses. 6et their input. Possibly their
cooperatlorl and work together, not agalnst each other.
Hayor Chmiel: Mark, maybe if I could just interject something.
Hark Halla: Sure.
Mayor Chmiel: As you may or may not be aware, this is the second year that
we've gone through the process and I don't know whether or not Halla was aware
of the fact that we did thls last year and had the opportunity to do the same as
the other people who did put those bids in. But I think our main intent within
the Councll at that tlme was to provlde trees to people who probably wouldn't be
able to buy them, even though you're required to put one tree in per lot. The
maln lntent ls that many of those trees, at least in my opinion at the tlme,
people who did wont to put a tree in would go elsewhere in other areas. I don't
want to use competitors names but normally that's probably where they would go
because their prices are much lower. To get a standard, quality kind of tree
was the idea and concept that we had for thls speclflc reason. And not only
that is that we dld want to see trees within our city because we're known as a
clty of trees and have had that bestowed upon us by the Department of Natural
12
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Resources already. And so I thlnk that was some of the lntent behlnd lt. Maybe
Don can elaborate maybe a little bit more on that as well.
Don Ashworth: The program was a priority of our Tree Board. I think we're
trying to carry out a reforestation of the city. We're trying to do that in a
number of different fashions. I think the Mayor ls correct. For those people
who are looking for a discount tree, they may be people that would participate
in this type of a program. Z don't think that they would be the same ones that
may purchase from Mr. Halla or from Lotus Garden. Last year's low bid dtd go to
Lotus. We have tried to lnsure that we are keeplng the bids to local area
people. We have not tried to mass market this thing into a wholesaler out of
Wisconsin. Agaln, last year's program was by a local provider. We also
literally give away seedlings as a part of Arbor Oay program. Again, an effort
to carry our reforestation. Lotus dld recelve the bld for the reforestation of
South Lotus Lake. You're right. We do requlre 1 tree on each lot. We're
brlnglng about 500 lots to market each year. The Tree Board would like to
increase that to 3 trees. I think right there our local suppliers should really
benefit from those type of programs. And flnally, I forgot my flnal polnt. Oh,
the point on the boulevards. As the Council is aware, you bring out an
excellent point. We are following an aggressive schedule so this year we will
be planting Kerber Boulevard literally in it's entirety. Audubon. And again,
we hope to be golng back to local suppliers to provide those products. One last
point and that is, my congratulation to the Halla's because over the years they
have been very supportive of the city as well. All of the trees around the old
City Hall, which at the time they were put in were relatively large. I would
say at least a 6 lnch diameter, were all donated by Halla and I think they've
continued to donate and help the city over the years so I thank you for that.
Mark Halla: Well I appreciate that and that's, I do strongly support the ldea
behind it. The method is what I disagree with. Last year, I'll be honest wtth
you, I wasn't aware of lt. My people let me down. The people that should have
been bidding it, made me aware of it within my organization didn't do so. As I
expressed to Oon earlier today, we would have had this discussion last year.
Obviously a year behind is a little late to come into the game and say hey, I
disagree. No question about that. Had I known last year, ! would have been
here last year saying the same thing. I d£sagree that the people that are
looklng for a bargaln are going to find thls method of getting the same tree or
the people that aren't looking for a bargain are going to come to me because in
the end, people don't reallze the differences in trees. People, that's why
Frank survives.
Mayor Chmlel: I didn't say lt.
Mark Halla: There is a difference and that's you know, for instance I can buy
whlte plne from North Carolina. I can brlng them in here and sell them on a
retail level for about $80.00 a tree as opposed to buying them, grown locally in
clay where they run $189.00 a tree for the same exact sized tree. There is a
difference. Root stock is a big difference. How hardy it's golng to be.
Whether it can stand the types of sotls here. $o people are going to always
look for bargains. We accept that. We try to offer bargains. As I expressed
to Todd Hoffman, I go to a lot of auctions during the year from businesses that
haven't done well. I sell a lot of items at my place for below wholesale
already. I have I guess about 600...pines that I'm talking $10.00 less than I
City Council. Meeting ~ March 8, 1993
car, buy them anyplace. I have deals like that. We publish them. You've seen
our advertisements. We spend a lot of money advertising. We do a lot of
promotions in order to move out products at a reasonable price and get people
into our store. Your method of doing this takes that even away from us. Not
only are you selllng the trees that possibly I could be, but you're not even
giving me the option of having them come into my environment and see what I have
to offer. If you have to do thls, there may be a way that you can work with
local businesses. Whether- it be through a coupon deal where all three of us get
together and say, sure. We uill glve 50~ off to anyone who comes to us wlth
thls clty of Cha~lhassen coupon. We'll give 50~ off on up to 3 trees durlng this
month. Then they at least come to our store. We don't make our mark-up. Maybe
we break even but they come to our store. They see what we have to offer and
hopefully they come back. Sprlng ls our busiest tlme of year. If uo don't get
the people in the door in spring, they don't see what we have, they aren't going
to come back throughout the season. When it gets hot, they aren't golng to come
back in the fall. You know it's a tough busil~ess. It's simllar to a farm
atmosphere where you're dependent upon a number of other factors 11ke
environment and weather. It can really give you a beatlng and to have something
11ke thls come up, it just seems 11ke a real conflict of lnterest to me. On one
hand I've got 100 acres that I'm paying taxes on and I support this bond issue
for thls school. It's golng to raise my taxes qulte a blt but I support lt.
think touchlng on that, the only way the world ever' improves is through
education. If we don't do a good job of it, we go nowhere. So I support that
and I have no problem paying extra tax money but if part of my tax money
going towards the city's overhead lncurred in seelng that people can buy trees
at the same price I pay for them, I just disagree. It's unfair to me. It's an
unfair advantage that you have. So I appreciate your time. I think Jay from
Lotus will be up next. Are there any comments or questions?
Councilman Wing: As the Mayor said, this is the second year on this so the
argument lsn't new. ~ remember meetings upstairs where the local businessmen
had colne in and discussed the same concerns you had. z don't disagree wlth it
at a11. Clearly one of the primary goals here would be education. No question
about that but as the Tree Board thls year looked at all the different optlons,
Z think that last year the Park and Rec klcked this off but as the Tree Board
has moved 1nrc place now, education is one issue. Worklng wlth the local
businesses is the second issue. Whether you offer local residents a discount or
whatever happens but this one shot Arbor bay, Tree Bay once a year is sort of
another plus on top of it. I think just the city's involvement once a year
trying to push reforestation and push the sale of trees, is really to the city's
benefit. I think it's nice to be concerned about local business, and I think we
are sensitive to that issue but also we've got to progress and progress we want
to make on reforestation_ Now in my own case personally, with 3 kids in college
right now, the last thing in the world ~ would ever do would be come to Halla
and buy a tree. I just wouldn't even think about it. I couldn't afford it.
don't want to do it but all of a sudden when the city says, Arbor Bay. I kind
of light up. And then discounted and wholesale trees. I just automatically
order one just to participate in the program. So I guess thls once a year sell
trees, let's reforest our city as part of our education process and I think that
as long as we lnvolve the local buslness init as much as possible, I have to
continue to support it. But I would like to see the local businesses get
lnvolved in thls to the polnt where maybe that doesn't, through education and
cooperation of local businesses, that doesn't even have to occur anymore. If
14
City Council Meeting - March 8, lg93
I knew that I could go to Halla as a resident of this city and get a special
deal on trees because you're encouraging reforestation, would alter my thinking
on thls a little blt but that's not in place now and I think where you're golng
to want to really put some attention is to this Tree Board and sell your program
to them and cooperate ulth them and let's get a cltywlde program golng.
Mark Halla: I agree wholeheartedly. I was never asked. You know if I would
have been.
Councilman Wing: I'll see that you are.
Mark Halla: Last year I didn't see it so I couldn't do anything about it. I
would love to participate. You know lt's for the beneflt of a11, there's no
question about that. Another thing that I didn't mention earlier ls that you're
se1'11ng the B & B trees, which they're a hlgh money amount. If you want to do
it and not effect local businesses as much, you could certainly be buylng bare
root trees. You could be se111ng the same callper trees in some instances for I
guess probably 300~ less. So there are ways of working this out and I would
11ke to but I still, regardless of whether it's one day or not a year, to do it
through local businesses showing support for your taxpayer as opposed to
competing them for their daily support of their business. ! don't have anythlng
further.
Mayor Chmiel: I think the comment of course that Richard had made, in fact that
just to sit down with the Tree Board and come up with some of the ldeas, I like
some of the thlngs you even sald. Potentionally, maybe a 50~ coupon or whatever
it might be but I'd like you at least to come in and talk to the Tree Board.
Mark Halla: I would be pleased to do so.
Mayor Chmiel: And get something set on that.
Councilman Mason: Yeah I think, I support the one shot deal atso but I also
support what you're saying Mark. I'd like to see staff and Tree Board, whoever,
talk with your industry in town and see if something can be worked out.
Mark Halla: I appreciate that. I keep hearing one shot deal. I was under the
understanding from talklng wlth Todd Hoffman that there was golng to be several
weeks of advertising for this. That it was going to be made publically aware to
as many people as possible and you're hopefully going to sell as many trees as
possible. That's different than a one shot deal to me.
Councilman Wlng: Our one tree sale a year.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, it's just one time. One of the benefits I thought last
year, and I talked to Jay about that, is the fact of getting those people lnto
your business place. It might be a one time, no money making but it's also
maklng those people aware as to what business you have and what you have to
offer and sell and coming back for repeat business as well.
Mark Halla: Right. Well I agree and that's why you know I'd love to see the
coupon deal or something so at least I get the obvious benefit of having them
see my establishment. So I thlnk that has a lot more merit than just slmply
15
City Courier. 1 Meeting -. Hatch 8, 1993
selling the trees, and as I understand it, the city is delivering them as well.
So thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Appreciate it. Jay.
Jay Kronick: My name is Jay Kronick. I live out of the city in Laketown
Township on Tellers Road. I do own Lotus Lawn and Garden and pay my taxes here
~$ well. Pay more taxes here titan out in Laketoun.
Mayor Chmiel: We appreciate it.
Jay Kronick: And if I could vote in Oistrict ~112, I too would sUpport the
referendum. As was mentioned, I had the opportunity to participate in the
program last year and was tile lucky vendor. Before participating I voiced some
of the same concerns Mark dld to the Mayor, to Todd Hoffman and wlll probably do
so again here tonight. I thought about this program off and on over then. I
guess part of the reason I chose to go ahead and participate was that I thought,
okay flne. We'll do this. Got a foot in the door. We learn a little bit about
the program and then we're golng to go back and fine tune lt. And I got a
surprise call from Mark this morning. Jay, have you heard about this? Well, I
knew about it last year Mark and he apparently didn't. I didn't receive the
newsletter' yet so I called up and found out, yeah. The program's planned again
for '93. Same way as last year. Imagine my dismay when there was none of that
fine tuning and talking with some of the interested parties as I had thought
might happen. I appreciate the opportunity to speak again here this evening and
must also stress that I encourage, as well as anyone else I think in this room,
the goal of reforesting Chanhassen. That's a...and one that we're probably all
behind in one respect or another. As the owner of Lotus Lawn and Garden, I am
concerned about the program as it stands for two reasons. First, it's my
opinion that the provision of goods, such as trees in this case, belongs in the
marketplace and riot controlled or organized by any political jurisdiction. The
city does offer' what we characteristically refer to as municipal services, fire
protection, road maintenance, etc. but to my quick knowledge today as I was
putting my notes [ogether, the city sells no other goods to residents. And if
it does, if I've overlooked something, it's probably a good that's not readily
available through the local marketplace or it's not a good that impacts
significantly on a local private sector provider-. In the case of this program
with the trees, there is a distinction. The planting of balled and burlap, high
dollar trees constitutes a significant portion of what ultimately results in the
legitimate profits that businesses like Mark's and mine are entitled to. The
second reason for my concern is that the practice of selling wholesale, the city
selling trees at wholesale, also runs counter to what we might call established
patterns of economy in this country. Wholesale pricing is meant roi- qualified
buyers, and I stress word qualified, who buy in quantity. Wholesale pricing is
not for the individual who needs 1 or 2 trees in their yard. And when
individuals who are not qualified buyers have the opportunJ, ty to buy at
wholesale, thls has a negatlve lmpact on the fetal1 nursery business. Prlce
expectations become lowered across the board. A perception develops that the
regular competitive fetal1 prlces, and we have those in this area because there
are several nl~rseries, that those regular competitive prices are too high and
the long term lmpact of a buslness suffers as a result. Boy, Halla's
expensive. Did you see the price of those B and 8 trees compared to what we can
buy them for through the clty? Boy, I'm not going to Lotus. That tree's
16
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
$169.00 there and I can buy it through the city sale next year for $85.00. How
does that impact down the line on the rest of my business when someone comes in
to buy fertilizer or thelr flowers. That perception ls created. I thlnk you
could even make the argument that the city's intrusion into what is a locally
thrlving free market for the purchase of nursery material. There are three
retail nurseries in town now, is a form of reverse price fixing. Whereby the
prices are belng drlven artlflcally low on these balled and burlap trees by the
city's process as it stands. Now I want to emphasize at this point I'm not
trylng to get rlch or rlp anybody off. I just want to make an honest living
doing a professional job in a profession that contributes to the betterment
improvement of our natural world. I echo some of Mark's sentiments there. And
I do want to make a living at it. I want my business to be profitable and I'm
not looklng for excessive proflts however. When I established my buslness here
in Chanhassen 5 years ago, I was encouraged by the City Council and the people
I talked wlth in the city. Residents and city officials allke. At that tlme I
agreed to comply with a broad range of conditions that cost my fledgling
buslness a lot of money, and st111 do. You've got some nice ordinances here but
they cost us. I willingly bore those costs and continue to do so to this day
and I realize full well there were no guarantees that I'd have a lock on the
tree and shrub market. I knew where the competition was and I expected that
others would come ln. I did at that tlme, and still expect that the competition
in reaching the residential market would be other retail businesses that at
least on the local level would comply wlth the same set of restrictions I do.
Not play by different rules. Here it is 5 years later. My business is up and
we're going and I'm glad I've chosen to locate it here. It's a good community
and I've enjoyed really getting involved with the community beyond the scope of
the business. Over the years we've contributed to the 4th of July and Halloween
celebrations. We helped out with the clty compost demonstration site. I spent
a lot of time, as well as money, working with the Scout who was involved in
that. We've offered landscape courses, one sort or another, through the
Dlstrlct ~112 Continuing Education and we've provlded trees for the City Center
Park. We do all these things with no strings attached. No expectations of it
comlng back to us or anything, but out of a splrlt of goodwill. We like what we
do. That goodwill however rises out of a feeling of being welcome and belng a
part of the community, and I'm not sure that a program such as the one proposed
says on the part of city government, local buslness you're welcome here. Zt has
the opposite effect. What do ! suggest as an alternative? Scrap the program
entirely. Let people buy freely within the context of the marketplace. I'm not
sure that, as some of you have claimed, that the program as proposed, plants
more trees. I think all that it does is make the bigger ones more affordable
and if you have $50.00 to spend on a tree, well sure you buy that 2 1rich tree
but it's not, in and of itself, all it's going to do is shift the size of the
trees that are belng planted and that may not be the best thlng. I'm not sure
that we're gettlng all that many more trees planted that way.-If, on the other
hand your mlnd ls made up, as it sounds like it ls and you've got to get
involved in this program, well I guess you're working on private land. My
suggestion would be find some money wlthln the clty coffers to flnance part of
this. Subsidize the trees. Help the businesses and residents out. There's got
to be some fundlng out there. Whether lt's rlght withln the city. The SBA's
got some programs for cities. A couple years back I called Jo Ann 01sen and
sald are we Tree Clty, USA because there's money through that program for cltles
through the SBA. There's got to be some means by which the burden of this
program doesn't fall entlrely on the back of the local businesses. I thlnk
17
Cj. ty Cottno'il Heeling -- March 8, 1993
we're all working towards the same end and just came out this evening to voice
some of my concerns. I fully would be willing to sit down and talk about how to
restructure this program. There were some comments about the tree preservation
board and as you know Councilman Wing, I had applied. I was invited to apply
for that Board. I was not chosen, and that's a nice relief because my time is
stressed too far but no one I~as said to me since, hey ue're for him. Come on
back and participate as a local business person. I'll extend one more effort to
do that as well to help out in any way ~ can.
Mayor Chmiel: Jay, I might also suggest that with Mark, we're going to sit down
with Ilia. i'd also suggest you probably do that as well. Haybe if there's
another solution to this, you can come up with something better than what we
have. That's something that can be looked at.
Jay Kronick: Well, I'm certainly willing to do that. I would like to.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. hpprecia[e it. ~ny questions?
Councilman Senn: Don I guess, you knou I think both these gentlemen are making,
Z think some pretty good points. ~ guess ~'m a business person in town and if
the city went into my business temporarily or otherwise, ~ guess I'd be pretty
upset too. At the same time, we all need to support the local economy and as
the city we do a lot to encourage that and do that through broader city efforts.
~ good example Z think is sometimes some of us make purchases at local stores
that may not necessarily save us money but we do that because we want to keep
those business in Chanhassen. Z think this really runs contrary to that. I'd
really like to see these gentlemen sit down with the Tree Board, with the
directive that they define a program that works really well for both parties. ~
see the city's role in this as really being one more of education. I mean you
know it's our job to educate people as to the advantages of reforesta[ion or
forestation. I think to use ~rbor Day as a key time to do that of course makes
a lot of sense simply because there's a lot of efforts going on at that time
whlch draw a lot of attention to it. But again, I think our program could be
something different than it is which would use c~ty efforts and city doJ. lars to
educate and maybe in conjunction with our local businesses, establish a program
that saves our residents some money and helps in that effort but again uses the
private marketplace. I would really strongly consider again a directive from us
to our Tree Board and that they sit down with these gentlemen and do that in
conjunction even with the program this year.
Mayor Chmiel: What I'd rather see done is have some discussions uith the Tree
Board and come back with a recommendation back from the Tree Board back to us.
Councilman Senn: That's what i'm suggesting.
3ay Kronick: Would it be your intent that we get this going real quick...
CounciJ. ma~ Senn: I think ue should do it right away.
Don Ashuorth= Well the city newsletter has gone out.
Mayor Chmiel' Yeah, that's already out.
18
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Don Ashworth= I think that's what ..lay was referring to was he hasn't seen the
newsletter yet. Mark had called him to tell him what was in it.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Right, but there's still some things...I didn't read
the details of it.
Mayor Chmiel: I don't know specifically what the requirements are but I think
if we would work this as I suggested, as Mark has even indicated, I think we can
come back with something and we can take it from there.
Councilman Senn: Yeah, I mean have we let a contract on this for this year?
Don Ashworth: No.
Mayor Chmiel: No, no.
3ay Kronick: I was told that I'd be invited to bid again and have not received
anything.
Mayor Chmiel: First learn what we went through the process and how we did the
process prior to this year. What ue did last year and then come back with those
kinds of comments.
Councilman Senn: Don, I understand that but just because we did it before that
way doesn't mean that's the right way to do it. I'd rather see these guys go
sit down with the Tree Board and see if they can come up with a better way to do
it for even this year, if that's possible. But again, the only way we're going
to find that out is kind of put the emphasis that way and ask it to be done. The
easiest way of course is to avoid the issue until next year and I'm not sure we
need to take the easiest way.
Mayor Chmiel: No, and we're not.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: We're just reading in here and this is real general.
There's still time to.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. Right.
Councilman Mason: Yeah, I think there's time to work together.
Jay Kronick: Should we contact someone on the Tree Board?
Mayor Chmiel: Well contact Todd Hoffman.
Don Ashworth: I would like, and I think that's fine. I think have them meet
with the Tree Board and as soon as possible. My concern ls that under publlc
law, we must advertise x number of days in advance that we must take blds for x
amount of period of time and then the officlal award has to occur by City
Council. So although it appears as though there is tlme between now and the
proposed sale date, I don't think that we have a lot of tlme. So if we're going
to do thls type of thing.
Mayor Chmiel: Hop on it tomorrow.
19
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Don Ashworth: Well I would say within the next week we should be meeting.
Mayor Chmiel~ Well tomorrow is soon e~mough. That way we can set something up
real quick.
3ay Kronick: I'd be perfectly willing to do that. Happy to do so. Thanks for
your time.
Mayor Chmiel: 6ood. Appreciate it. Anyone else? Any other visitor
presentations?
PUBLIC HEARING: LAKE LUCY ROAD EXTENSION AND OFFICIAL MAPPING (TRUNK HIGHWAY 41
TO GALPIN BOULEVARD), PROJECT 92-12.
Public Present:
Name
Address
A1Klingelhutz
Jerome Carlson
Ed and Mary Ryan
Sam and Nancy Mancino
8ill Engelhardt
8600 Great Plains Blvd.
Galpin
6730 Galpin
6620 Galpin
Engelhardt and Associates
Mayor Chmiel called the public hearing to order.
Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. Our project consultant
engineer, Mr. Blll Engelhardt ls here tonight to glve a presentation of the
results of the feasibility study and then we can open it up for public
discussion from the audience.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you.
Bill Engelhardt: Your Honor and members of the City Council, my name is Bill
Engelhardt. Again, we're the consultants on the mapping of Lake Lucy Road and
looklng at alignments and aJternatlves for that particular roadway. It's a
connection between State Hlghuay 41 and County Road 17. The project really
focused on two phases or two halves of the project. The westerly half off of
State Highway 41 serves what's called a Westside Baptist Church property, which
ls located rlght here. And then the Gestach subdivision which ls located and
shown in dashed lines as a potential subdivision. Then the easterly half of the
project was basically just an officlal mapplng. Looklng at how best a collector
street could be provided between Highway 41 and County Road 17, through the
Edward and Mary Ryan property. Just for reference to this, Sam and Nancy
Mancino property is up in this area and the Jerome Carlson property is down in
here. The affected property owners would be the Baptlst Church, the Gestach
property and the Ryan property. We looked at two different alternatives for
this particular roadway. Our maln objective on the west slde was to determine
how we could best serve those two properties. The Baptist Church and the
Gestach property. And on the east slde we looked at how we could best get
through the Ryan property and make a connection at the existing intersection of
Lake Lucy Road and County Road 17. I think you have to keep in mind that thls
westerly, or easterly portion of the roadway is basically just a mapping. No
2O
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
construction is proposed at this time through that particular area. It's a way
oF determining that if this sectlon of the road ls built, can a road be extended
through. Can a connection be made? How could it be made and at what cost could
it be made realizing that in the future we may have other costs. We may have
other alignments through that westerly, or easterly property. The two
alignments we looked at, again Alternate 1 was running a roadway along the
Carlson property line. Along the south side of the West Baptlst Church property
and then up into the Gestach property. Trylng to avoid the wetland areas in
order to get the curves that we needed to meet State Ald standards and in order
to fit, best fit an alignment in there. The second alternative that we looked
at shlfted the west alignment to the north and basically held the alignment
through the easterly portion, the same as we had it under the Alternate 1. The
reason for that was that there's a large grove of trees in this area and really
what happened, I drive this road every day and I didn't want to see, see if we
could avoid cuttlng those trees in there. Thls alignment does skirt those
evergreens that you see out there. If you're familiar with the property.
There's a row of evergreens through thls area and then just to the south of the
evergreens is a hardwood tree area. Again, the only reason for this particular
alignment was to see if we could avoid taking those evergreens in there.
01scussions in the homeowners meetlngs with the Carlsons. They indicated that
they somewhat preferred, if we're going to have an alignment, to be on the
property 11ne. It would best serve their property. We would not have
additional right-of-way acquisition. These parcels in here would have to be
acquired and they'd be virtually useless. So the city would end up owning that
property. The only reason thls was shown agaln was to see if we could avoid
cutting those trees. As it turns out, there's really only about 2 rows of
evergreens in there. They're not ideal evergreens. The hardwood forest ls
behlnd that. Even with the Alternate 1, we would be staying out of those
hardwoods, and that was important. Mr. Carlson's thought on it was, if we would
take the evergreens, that we'd replant those and actually have a better tree and
a better look than what we have rlght now. Part of the process for mapping the
alignment was to look at the topography. This is a, it's a very difficult
topography. It's rolllng. It's hilly. We have large wetland areas in this
particular area. There's hlgh hills to the north. In the Ryan property there's
a knoll right through here. The Gestach property, we have slopes and hills that
come down and go back up again and right along this side, the church property
slopes down to the pond area whlch is down in here. Right here. The alignment
again we felt that best served the properties, particularly on the west side was
to keep the road along the Carlson property line. That gave the church area the
largest area to work with for development of their property and to place their
church. And Z'11 show you in a 11ttle blt another overhead that shows the
sanitary sewer line that goes through there, so this property gets somewhat cut
up if we start shlftlng this alignment to the north. It also best serves the.
Gestach property, although there is very slight change from Alternate 1 and
Alternate 2 up in this area. Again we held with the same alignment for the
easterly property focuslng on making this at a T intersection with Lake Lucy
Road. I thlnk it was explained to the property owners during our homeowner
meetings that if this property, if the Ryan property were to ever develop,
elther by them or someone else, that thls alignment could be adjusted through
here to best serve the proposed development but we would ultimately want to end
up at Lake Lucy Road. At that intersection.
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Mayor Chmiel: Bill, with the existing l.e~ke Lucy Road and with our sewage lift
station tllat we have there, that's not going to run directly from one into the
other is it?
Bill Engelhardt.' Well at Lake Lucy Road we have what's called the water
pressur'e station. Is that what you're referring to?
Hayor Chmiel: Yes, I'm sorry. Water pressure.
Bill Engelhardt: There's a booster station that's dead center on this
alignment. And durlng the construction of thls particular piece of roadway,
that station would have to be relocated in order to get this to come in at a T
intersection.
Mayor Chmiel: The reason I bring that out is, our previous engineer, when that
was brought up, our concerns were that that was going to be put in a locatlon
directly across from that and that that particular statlon would interfere with
the road. At that time we were told, no. It wasn't golng to and now we're
golng to have to relocate the dang thing.
Bill Engelhardt: I think, yeah. If you're looking at this alignment, and the
Ryarl's had concerns about, and naturally and I understand their concerns about
platting or actually, we're not proposing to do any construction in this area.
We want to see if this would work. As far as the Ryan's are concerned, thls
could be shifted one way or the other. Our objective and our main focus would
be [o get thls lnto a gO degree intersection because this is a major collector
that we'd be building. ~e don't want to bring Lake Lucy Road up to CR 117 and
then have to make a jog down ~00 feet and come back up through. You want that
as a thru road. I don't know what the tlme perlod on that would be. When that
would ever be reconstructed or what. But I believe that we would have to do
some work in there, yeah. No questlon about that. We could possibly try to
shift ita 11ttle blt but agaln, Z thlnk if you look at collector street deslgn,
if you try to brlng your traffic start through, and if we had any kind of shift
in alignment in there, we'd be causlng a real bottleneck at that intersection
and we'd have some potential problems. ~f we go to the north, towards the
Manclno property, [hls lsa uery steep hill in through here and you'd have
difficulty buildlng a roadway. It's possible you could come down south and come
back up around. That would be possible. In the study we incorporated some
profiles, just to give you a rough ldea of what the topography looks like. This
solld 11ne ls proposed grade. The up and down 11ne through here, the vertlcal
line is the existing grade so you can see there's some rather steep hills up
through that area. Part of the pro~ect also was looklng at providing sewer and
water service for petitioning properties, whlch again were the Baptlst Church
and the ~estach property. We looked at the ultimate for sanitary sewer. How
you would best serve the entire alignment. Again, keeping in mind that the area
to the we~t ls not belng considered for any type of construction at thls time,
we'd only be looking at the area to the, or excuse me, [o the east. Only the
area to the west. Exlstlng trunk sanitary sewer, the Lake Ann Znterceptor runs
through the Westside Baptist Church property. Follows along the Gestach
property and then down 1nfo the Jerome Carlson property and basically keeps on
going south along the wetland area. That is the interceptor. That is the sewer
Faclllty that would serve the entlre area. What we would do under thls
particular project is construct the lateral lines. If you were going to build
22
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
the street section at this time you would want to put the laterals in. The
lateral sewer line so you wouldn't have to redo the streets at some point in
time. Water is not that critical. We have not looked at a water cost for it.
The watermain could be put in along the shoulder area of the roadway but if
we're going to do the, if you're going to build any kind of street in there, you
should provide the sanitary sewer. They'd be tied directly into the Interceptor
and then this line, on the Gestach property would serve his development and
they'd be able to tie into that manhole. Part of the street construction would
ultimate have to have storm sewer in it. This is what the green indicates. How
we would storm so the project, the little bubbles indicate catch basin
locations. Where we would intercept the drainage. This particular project
would discharge into the large wetland areas but the new rules and regulations
state that we need to have NURP ponds priOr to discharge in the wetlands. No
increase in runoff to the wetlands than what we're seeing right now. So we
would have to do some work to treat the storm water before we discharge in the
wetlands. We'd not be allowed to go directly into the wetlands. The street
section would also have a trail system on it. Trail is planned to be on the
north side of the roadway. Again, only through the Westside Baptist Church and
the Gestach/Paulson property. In the feasibility study we did break out the
costs for the entire alignment. We tried to come up with a cost per foot.
Realistically, what we need to look at is the construction of two phases. For
the Phase 1 would be through the Westside Baptist and the Gestach property and
the cost for Phase 1, based on a front foot cost, would be $78.32 for street,
storm sewer and sidewalk. $29.69 per front foot for sanitary sewer. That would
be for Alternate 1, which is along the Jerome Carlson property line. Alternate
2 which again shifts the westerly alignment slightly to the north, would have
$70.2B per front foot for street, storm sewer and sidewalk and $50.57 per front
foot for the sanitary sewer. This project is, as a collector has been proposed
as a State Aid street. Connects county road and State Highway 41. Qualifies for
State Aid funding. In this particular case, the City's policy is that the
individual property owners would be assessed for a typical residential street
and the cost over and above a typical residential street would be born by the
State Aid funds. And that's going from a 31 foot street with concrete curb and
gutter, to basically a 44 foot with concrete curb and gutter. And this
particular slide shows you the total project cost of $356~268.00. State Aid and
local share is $117,492.00. Total assessable is $268,77~.00 and we have the
sanitary sewer construction, that's for street. We have sanitary sewer
construction of $54,873.00. Sanitary sewer would be a direct benefit to the
property owners receiving service and that would be assessed directly to those
property owners. Our recommended alignment would be the Alternate Number 1. It
best serves the properties to the west. It's the same alignment for the Ryan's
on both alternatives. We have less cost for right-of-way acquisition and we're
able to serve the Carlson property, Westside Baptist, the Gestach subdivision.
It does not cut the Westside Baptist Church property up. Right now they have
the sanitary sewer easement going through there so the closer we, farther north
we push this alignment, we restrict their buildability. So the best location is
along this property line. With that I'd be happy to answer any questions you
might have or any of the residents...on the property.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Why don't we just wait with our questions on Council.
What I'd like to do, as I indicated, this is a public hearing. Those of you who
are interested in providing comments regarding this proposal, please come up and
state your name and your address and what your concern is. Is there anyone at
23
Cily Council. Meeting -- March 8, ].993
this time that would like to provide any comment? As I say, it's a public
I~earlng. Don't be afraid to come up. It's just 11ke sitting in your kitchen to
talk to us. We don't blte.
Councilman Wing: I think A1 knows that.
Hayer Chmiel: A1 who?
A1 Klingelhutz: I'm A1 Klingelhutz and my son Brian is involved in this project
and he's out of town tonight so he asked me to come up here and address you
honorable people. There's a few new thlngs have come up and I've talked to
Jerome Carlson about this. At the present time, and I think Jerome would agree
with me, that the entrance should be on the property 11ne on the south side of
tile church property. Even if there already is a 60 foot easement through the
church property, to glve access to the Gestach/Paulson/Klingelhutz property.
That. easement was put in at the time of the sale of the property to the ~estside
Baptlst Church so there would be sure access to the property behind it.
Councilman Wing= Al, before you go any further. Are you saying that would be
alignment number i or are you saying...
A1 Klingelhutz'. I think it probably could be a little bit different than that.
T belleve that Jerome has agreed that he would take part of that alignment onto
his property ~o it wou].d push it a little bit further south and make the
feasibility for the Westslde Baptlst Church property much better than it even is
with this alignment. Zf we went with tile easement across tile Westslde church
property, I don't know, there wouldn't be too many possibilities for the
property because anything north of the road would get too close to tile pond.
And the south $1de of the road could possibly hold a church or a few bulldlng
~ite~. But tt would make it very limited there. One thing ~ can't qulte
understand ls why there has to be a collector street through thls property to
service the development that's in there. Just about 6 weeks ago Z was up here
to a Counc11 meetlng and there was another proposed road golng from County Road
117 to TH 41. A full two lane road and that was allowed ~o be put in at a 50 or
60 foot wldth. Now you want a collector ~treet through this property and
irl~tead of having only a collector street road through, you've got this proposed
road. You've got the one you've already approved for the Lundgren property,
plus you'll have three roads from what would be CR 117 to TH 41 went in about a
m].le stretch from Hlghway 5. It seems a 11ttle blt excessive to put that much
land into road~ when it can be much better used for other purposes. Thank you.
Mayor Chmlel: Thank you Al. Is there anyone else?
Jerome Carlson: Jerome Calgon. Maybe I could, want me to u~e the mic? Can you
hear me?
Mayor Chmiel: We have a mic.
Jerome Carlson= What A1 was suggesting is that, as I went out and really looked
,xt this thing a few times, what I discovered. As the result of your concern
about the evergreens, whlch I also can appreciate the beauty of. I wanted to
see exactly how close [o the llne all these beautiful mature maples and oaks are
and what I thlnk I discovered is that there ls, wlth some understanding with
24
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
staff, which I haven't had the opportunity to do yet, on site. I think there is
room to pretty much split the boundary line, greatly diminishing the number of
evergreens that would have to be taken. And literally not sacrificing I think a
single hardwood. I stepped it off in several areas. I had to take a few extra
steps because of my height but I did make it, and also I would recommend as we
go out there, that we look to turning this a little bit earlier. Perhaps not
quite as sharply or severely, although that certainly isn't, because in one
place there are three very, very large, and they're right on the border.
don't know if they're mine or the churches, there are three very, very large
mature oak trees that I think could be easily avoided. That would be my
opinion. This routing is going to assess us for all of the footage on here
anyway so frankly, partly in an effort to avoid some of those evergreens and if
ue could get out there together I could show you, would avoid the vast majority
of them. Moving that road about 30 or 40 feet to the south. So that would be
yet another alternative that I believe would diminish the taking of trees to the
utmost and would absolutely maximize the use of the Baptist property and it
would still serve our property at such time as ue were to develop. We would be
paying this assessment under this plan anyway. Thank you. And I would invite
the opportunity to go out there and walk that with staff.
(Someone in the audience made a comment that was not picked up on the tape.)
Jerome Carlson: We're talking about a maximum of what? A total of 80 feet?
Bill Engelhardt: 80 feet of right-of-way, yeah.
Audience: And that includes the trail?
Bill Engelhardt: Yeah.
Jerome Calson: What I would like to do, I would enjoy doing, is going out there
and actually tying, ribboning the trees and doing the measurements on site
because lt's surprising, when you get rlght up on the boundary 11ne, that just
off the hlghway the beginning of the pines is actually some footage north of the
property 11ne. The way they line up. There's a significant distance that you
don't notice from the highway. You have to be in the woods. But I do thlnk
that whether the road is 60 feet or whatever, I do thlnk you would find that to
be perhaps a better alignment. Thank you.
Mayor Chmlel: Thank you.
Bill Engelhardt: Your Honor, could I just comment?
Mayor Chmiel: Sure.
Bill Engelhardt: Just one second on that. I don't have any problem, and I'm
sure Charles and I could get out there and meet with Mr. Carlson. I think one
thing that I should point out to you why we chose the looatlon. Mr. Carlson was
not one of the original petitioners and his property, even though he would be
assessed, was not part of where we would want to acqulre right-of-way. So what
we're looking at is trading the right-of-way basically through the existtng
right-of-way or easement area that the Baptist Church has going through thelr
property for this right-of-way through their property, thereby keeping the cost
25
City Council Heeting - March 8, 1993
of the total acquisition down. But if Mr. Carlson wants to dedicate the
right-of-way along his properly line, we'.d be more than happy to look at that
because that would reduce the right-of-way that we'd need on the Baptlst Church.
The reason for that was to save on the cost of the acquisition. Agaln, if
that's a real...
Councilman Wing: Bill, before you sit down. A lot of the letters we've gotten
and the neighborhood meeting was concerning the Ryan property and so on and so
forth. And Z just want to clarlfy that anything we do here, Z guess at some
polnt we have to decide for the City's best interest, if ther-e's golng to be a
collector street golng through, then we have to get an alignment set up for the
future. Whether it's a year', 5 years, 10 years, 100 years. That's maybe
irrelevant. But rlght now we're concerned about a road that may or may not
serve that proposed development, and was it my understanding that both sewer and
water can come in independently and serve that? The sewer can be hooked up as
is and the water can come in from the north.
Bill Engelhardt: That's correct.
Councilman Wing: So we're no way touching the Hancino/Ryan properties? They're
just irrelevant at this tlme?
Bill Engelhardt: The Mancino property is definitely out. There's nothing even
planned to be mapped on lt. The Ryan property again is a future consideration.
The only reason '[hat we looked at it agaln was your Comp Plan does ldentify thls
as being a collector street and your comp Plan does show a 1i~e through there.
Thls was just trylng to establish what is a reasonable location and area for
that road to go through and that's a11.
Councilman Wing: So then the Ryan's have to assume that at some point in the
future this may be a collector street, but the only issues we're really going to
be dealing with here are golng to be the western petition?
Bill Engelhardt: That's correct. That's correct.
Councilman Wing: Okay.
Councilman Senn: The right-of-way that exists now, is strictly a trade then
between that and the right--of-way on the church property?
Bill Engelhardt: What we looked at originally was that again, the Westside
Baptist church was a petitioner in the project. Now they have indicated by
letter that, I'm not so sure they're st111 interested in the project. And if
they're here they can certainly speak for themselves tonight but there was, when
(he 6estach?Paulson people sold. They owned all thls property and when they
sold this 10 acres to the Westslde Baptist Church, they maintained an access
easement through here that would allow them access to their property. At that
time they were looking at possibly dolng a 2 1/2 acre lot subdivision because it
was not in the MUSA 11ne area. Well now it's in the MUSA line area and it can
be broken up lnto large lots, meeting slngle family size for the city of
Chanhassen, and they st111 have that easement through there. And as Baptist
Church being a petitioner of the project and wan~ing the roadway, it would
behoove them to have that roadway moved to the south because it glves them more
26
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
buildable area for their property. It's not real clear on this map but what
this line is is the pond that you see out there and they have certain setback
restrictions for building on that property, plus if you remember the other
slide, we do have the interceptor coming through here. So they are somewhat
11mlted on how they can bulld on thelr property and by keeplng thls alignment to
the south, it enhances their property. If Mr. Carlson is willing to go along
with the project and wants to shlft half that right-of-way onto hls property,
that makes it even all the better.
Councilman Senn: No, but that still doesn't answer my question. Is the
existing easement a trade-off to the new easement?
Bill £ngelhardt: At this time I'm not sure because I'm not sure where the
Baptist Church is on whether they want to do the project or not.
Mayor Chmlel: Bill, my understanding, according to staff, they have withdrew
their proposal for thls petition.
Bill Engelhardt: So if they were not part of the project, don't want to be part
of the project, we would have to acquire whatever right-of-way we need from
them, we'd have to acqulre.
Councilman Senn: Unless we went in the easement?
Bill £ngelhardt: Unless we went in the easement. Which-would severely restrict
their property.
Councilman Senn: I understand that but I'm just trylng to find out the issues,
okay.
Bill Engelhardt: That's correct.
Councilman Senn: The second question is, coming back into your costing before
though, on your Alternate number 2 you're showing a much hlgher pricetag. If
there's an existing easement running to the north, why are we showing such a
large price tag on the second one and not you know.
Bill Engelhardt: Alternate number 2 was not on the easement alingment. None of
the, elther Alternate Number I or Alternate Number 2 were on the easement
alignment.
Councilman Senn: Okay, so the Alternate 2 is not on there?
Bill Engelhardt: No. That was just a matter of sklrting around the edge of
those evergreens to see if we could save those. From the north slde of the
property. The easement that we're talking about goes more through the middle of
that property.
paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, if I could touch on a couple of items briefly. The
idea of...road away from the pond and the south property 11ne was originally at
the church's request. I understand...but the church came to us 6 months ago. 7
months ago. Whatever it was, and said that the road easement, which is not a
public road easement. That road easement that Klingelhutz and Gestach has, puts
27
City Council Meeting ,- M.arch 8, 1993
[heir land in such a way that they can't reasonably develop the church they want
to develop. They asked us to look at alternatives to move that road on the
south property line. Now it's a little bit of a funny position...It impacts
their property a little bit less. Secondly, if I could touch on the Comp Plan
issues that were raised a moment ago. I don't have a good overview of this.
This is the Comp Plan that was approved by the City several years back. From
what you can see here is Lake Lucy Road coming across the top and being extended
generally in the vicinity of what we're talking about now. I don't believe this
is a new concept. As I recall, this may have even been in our '80 comprehensive
plan. It is the only possible roadway that goes across the north end of the
city because of the location of the lakes. The other collector road which was
referenced, is this one that's kind of shown as a straight line down here
through the Lundgren property. In our early workings with Lundgren, we
downgraded that from a collector status to a local street that connects from one
side to the other because the grades are so difficult in there, it was concluded
that you just couldn't get a legitimate collector street there and it didn't
have the continuity that Lake Lucy Road did. So Lake Lucy Road is really the
only street that offers, at least a...continuity across the top half of the
city.
Councilman Senn: Did Lake Lucy Road used to go straight across?
Paul Krauss: Yeah. The old alignment was right through here a~d that was
vacated and changed when it was large lot slngle fatally through there.
Councilman Senn: And that was done when?
Councilman Hason: 3 or 4 years ago?
Sharmin A1-Jaff: '83-'84.
Paul Krauss: Yeah, quite a while ago.
Councilman Mason: What's the distance between Lake Lucy Road and the road south
of there?
Paul Krauss: Well actually this...and it comes through the middle in the
Oolesji...
Charles Folch: Probably, it's almost a mile now.
Paul Krauss: And again, we downgraded that simply to provide a connection
through so large property...could go through but lt's a local street that's
built to a narrow standard that's going to go up and down quite a bit and have
houses along lt.
Councilwoman Dockendorf'. And the third one that A1 referred to?
Paul Krauss: I believe the third one is probably...
Charles Folch: I should mention that the Lundgren, what was basically
downgraded with that [.undgren street. The width is remaining at 3~ feet, whlch
ls what we bulld our collector streets to. It's the right-of-way actually that
28
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
was narrowed down to allow for grading and such but they're still building it to
56, which is what we propose to build this extension of Lake Lucy Road.
Councilman Senn: I just, not having the history Z have to back up and ask
questions. If what I heard earlier is true where you're going to in effect
brlng everything in from the north. Okay, and now the church ls not, the
petitioner or participating in this. Why don't we just bring it in from the
north?
Charles Folch: Because the easement that's granted to the north would was
written strictly in favor of the Gestach?Paulson/Klingelhutz property. It's not
a publlc easement that's been granted to the clty. It's just been ln, it allows
access, potential access to that Paulson?Gestach/Klingelhutz property. It's not
a public road right-of-way easement.
Mayor Chmiel: What size easement is that?
Charles Folch: 60 foot I believe.
61Klingelhutz: I believe that the three of them could turn it over into a
public right-of-way.
Bill Engelhardt: You could turn that &O into a public right-of-way easement.
The problem is that at that point you would then have a local street and not a
collector and lt's a declslon by the city whether you want to have a collector
or a local street. That's basically what it boils down to.
Councilman Senn: Part of a collector.
Bill Engelhardt: Part of a collector, right.
Councilman Senn: Because we're not addressing the east, we're just talking
about an alignment.
Paul Krauss: ...officially map the route. But clearly, we never, advocated
building this thlng until development warranted it...we'd ask' you to officially
map it so that everybody knows where this thing ls located and at such time in
the future that development warrants it, we can put it in. But that's the only
action that you would take.
Councilman Senn: But what I'm trying to do is get to the point. Can you
separate the issues? I mean can this project go ahead without that particular
declslon belng made proceeding it?
Paul Krauss: So in essence you would look to build the western portion and not
officially map the eastern portion?
Councilman Senn: No. Could you put in the residential street versus the
collector to servlce the one residential development you're talklng about?
Bill Engelhardt: At that point you've got a residential street and then to go
back ln, let's say 10-15 years from now and you declded that you needed to build
a collector, you would have to increase the size of that street and tear
City Council. Heel:ino ,- Ma~-¢:;h 8, 199~
everything out and rebuild it. So again the question is, do you want to, or the
decision is, do you want to build a collector at this time or do you waist to
allow just a local street go in and then in the future possibly have to rebuild
that local street when you have people living on it.
Councilman Senn: I understand what you're saying but at the same time I come
back to the iss~ie of, if you have an existing easement through there, I still
haven't heard a big reason why we aren't planning on using that easement other
than the fact that it might hurt the use of the church property.
Charles Folch: There's actually two potential problems. One is, HnDot has
control access along TH 41, which means if ue go ahead and build just a local
street access along that existing alignment, in the future it's likely that we
have difficulty with HnDot getting another collector ~ccess at such a short
spacing to the south of that existing 60 foot easement.
Councilman Senn: Why did you move it to the south I guess the question I colne
around to? I mean why can't you bulld.
Charles Folch: You moan tear out the road in the future and then build it to
the south in the future?
Councilman Senn: No.
Charles Folch: Z mean if you bulld the local street now on the exlstlng 60 foot
e~sement, Z would.
Councilman Senn: Why couldn't the feeder go where the local street is?
Charles Folcl'l: Because, oh that's my second part of this ls, you get into
wetland lssues because when we construct that road through there, you're golng
to end up havlng fil]. slopes and ~ think we would be encroaching upon that
wetland along the exlstlng alignment. There was some problem with gettlng the
alignment and the fill slopes through that area.
Bill Engelhardt'. Again, using the 60 foot right-of-way that the church has, or
60 foot easeme~t. Excuse me. 60 foot easement. If we use that right-of-way,
that severely restricts the use of the church property. So the church basically
can't build. When they came and petitioned the city, they requested that that
· right-of.-way be moved or changed, looked at a different locatlon so that they
could get the building and facilities that they wanted to build in there. Now
if all of a sudden the church doesn't want to build, then we could posslbly that
60 foot right-of--way and you can keep it there but it vLrtually eliminates
construction of what the church wanted to do in there. It cuts that property in
t'lalf.
Councilman Senn: I understand that but when they bought the property the
easement was there. And now you're asking the city to make a rather costly and
significant decision forced to a point that it appears that it doesn't need to
be forced.
Bill Engelhardt: The decision by the city is whether they want a collector road
through there or not.
3O
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Councilman Senn: At this time?
Bill Engelhardt: Yeah.
Mayor Chmiel: I think what Bill is saying, is if you don't put a collector in
now, you put in the regular road at this time, you may have to go back to redo
it and he's saying you're putting good money after bad once you put this in.
Councilman Wing: We're looking at our Comp Plan. I think that years ago we
decided we want a collector street going through there. It's been defined. It's
been talked about. It's our northern tier. I think we've got to get it mapped.
I think in fairness to the owners, they have to know where it's going to go.
Now we have the question of the church. Zs it this one or isn't doesn't it and
we're talking about easements that may or may not exist. Carlson has come in
and he said he wants it on his property. Good for him. Let's trade it off.
That's fine. I think it's a great idea. His trees. He doesn't seem to be too
concerned about them and mapping of the east, building to the west, mapping to
the east, I'm getting lost. Can we table this until staff has had a chance to
find out who's who and what's going on?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Councilman Senn: I'm really confused where we're going with it. I really am.
Mayor Chmiel: But before we table it, we still have some more people who would
like to address the lssue and I'd 11ke to have those come up yet.
Ed Ryan: Thank you Mayor. My name is Ed Ryan. I live at this little plot of
land here. There's been a lot of discussion. Did any of the councllmembers get
a copy of my letter that I forwarded to them? Okay. Our concern is a couple
fold. We received notlce of a meetlng that we attended. A neighborhood
meeting. Mary and I dld, where we learned for the very first time that the road
was actually mapped or plotted, whatever the formal description ls, cutting
right in the middle of our property. My concerns are several..Number one it
was explained to us pretty clearly by mapping the road at this time, there's a
financial incentive that State Aid then becomes available. At this time, as far
as we're concerned, the issue of developing this property is frankly none of our
business. They need access to access their particular property. A collector
road at this time just seems very inappropriate to us. There is going to be
another collector road somewhere in this vicinity that has been referred to as
the Lundgren property. In terms of what Mary and I have done, we have been on
the property for approximately 8 years. This was the former Brendon property.
We have many children. We have number x on the way and we have talked about
various locations potentially for a home that might accommodate our needs and
our feeling is that this road is basically being driven by the city in order to
establish a collector site now. I guess our opinion is, if Mr. Carlson or the
other property owners would accommodate this road as being a local road at this
time, we feel that would be appropriate. If the development continues in this
direction, at some point in time, perhaps an extension of the collector in this
particular location might be appropriate. This, Paul referred to this as being
the only point. It has always been referred to us as a representation of where
it might be. It's never been said that this is exactly where this point is
going to be. So those are our concerns and Z think again, we have no qualms
CJ. ty Council Meeting -March 8, 1993
about the development of this property. That's up to them but as far as
designating a collector at this time, ue fee] would be inappropriate.
Mayor Chmiel: Ed, could you just outline your property, as to where you're at?
Ed Ryan: Yes. We're running along the Hancino property to the north. Then the
line drops this direction to the south and then we abut up against part of the
wetlands here and then continue to CR ].17~ What this basically says to us is
that if this is going to be mapped like this, it means it's coming. And I
guess Z don't see where t hdt serves the city's needs, nor our needs obviously at
this time. So this is where we're at.
Mayor' Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Is there anyo~le else?
Sam Mancino: Sam Mancino, 6620 Galpin. My wife and I, Nancy are up in this
property here. I've got a couple of questions. One, do we know exactly what
the church wants right now? They withdrew their petition whlch seems to
indicate that they're not in favor of it right now?
Mayor Chmiel-~ TI'mat's correct.
Sam Mancirlo: Is it possible to build a road right now to specifications at a 32
foot collector status at the right class? Whatever, Class g.
Charles Folch: The City standard for collector, or standard for residential is
31. Tile standard collector is a 3~ foot roadway. That allows for, gives you
enough room for the lanes and allows for infrequent parklng, if it should occur.
Stalled vehlcles and as such. It allows for motorist to count the types of
vo].umes that are expected to be maklrlg use of a collector type roadway to be
able to comfo~'t~bly and make use of the ro~d. So [hat's basically where the
basis and standard comes from in that additional width that you have in the
roadway from a 31 to a 38.
Sam Mancino: Does it requlre bike paths or walking paths?
charles Folch: Actually there is, as Bill mentioned, there is an 8 foot
bituminous path belng proposed wlth the project whlch won't be on the roadway
like the current Lake Lucy Road has between Powers and 6alpin. This one u111
actually be off in the boulevard area.
Sam Mancino: But my question is, is it required to meet the conditions or the
needs of a collector?
Charles Folch; This has been identified as a standard that we make use of, yes.
Sam Mancino: But it doesn't contribute to the moving of the traffic.
Charles Folch= Yes it does.
Sam Mancino: To put in the roadway, the walkway, the bikeway, etc. It requires
that 80 foot easement. You could get by with a smaller easement and a smaller
road rlght now that would st111 be adaptable to move enough trafflc later,
wouldn't you?
32
City Council Meeting - Hatch 8, 1993
Charles Folch: Actually the Eastern Carver County study, which was completed in
late fall of '90 pro3ected forecasts year 2010 volumes that may even warrant, at
that point in time or thereafter, depending on development of the community, the
possibility of going to a four lane facility if volumes should warrant. The
trouble with just taking a 60 foot or acquiring a 60 foot right-of-way now is,
later on if you need to go back and build a 4 lane facility, you need to have
the 80 foot right-of-way. Oftentimes you may have some buildings that have
occurred on properties and it makes it much more difficult to acquire the
additional right-of-way in the future.
Sam Mancino: Okay, thank you. I guess our concern is that it seems that you're
at a polnt in Chanhassen where you need to conslder the default that you bulld
into all of your decisions. And ls the default value that you're going to
facilitate possible development at a future time or are you golng to encourage
it? And I thlnk that the time has come for you to start slowing down the
default so that you facilitate it but don't overly encourage it and I think by
putting in a large collector system right now, paving it right up to this point
and in essence telling the Ryans that another road is coming very soon,
encourages or promotes development of that property rather than merely
facilitating lt. So we would encourage your default.
Councilman Wing: We've used the word 20 years. Where have we said that Ryan,
I trled to emphasize earlier that we're only talking about the west. That road
is on the map right now. That road was on the map when they bought it but
they've only been there 8 years. It's been there a long tlme. It has to be
finalized so in all fairness to whoever deals with this 50 years from now,
realizes that we lntend to put a road through there. We're only talklng about
the west tonight. As long as Ryan's don't develop their property, it's
irrelevant. We're not pushing the road through. We're not developing
We're not proposing it. We're not holding public hearings for that road. Ryan
property lsn't even part of the discussion tonight except where the alignment
may go for further development, whenever they choose to develop or sell or
whatever occurs.
Sam Mancino: But it also impacts the size. It impacts the scale of the road.
Councilman Wing: Well the collector too is State Aid. A city street is not
State Ald so we're talklng about two different lssues here too.
Mary Ryan: I'm Mary Ryan. I guess I feel that the Ryan property is relevant
here. I feel that if that road was always sald to us that it was there. It was
a possibility. It was kind of a dream. It was a place that it might be
someday. I feel that we can never dream about our property wlth anythlng but
that road going through right there. I think that at this point, you know it
could be a smaller road. I guess what we basically have left after that lsa
whole lot of wetland. I would like to see it somehow moved down to the south if
it has to. You know if we have to have thls long road that connects the east/
west, north end of ouT- city. Or to the north somehow. I also feel that Lake
Lucy Road at thls polnt, I walk it. I run it. I bike lt. Z feel that lt's
kind of a speed trap in a lot of ways and I can see that if the road is put in
this way, it could very well be the same way that way so I guess in so many
ways, it seems like a bad idea to me and I fee1 that I guess our property, that
cuttlng it rlght in the mlddle 11ke that makes it very, very relevant to us.
33
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
And having it on the books, sitting on file somewhere, even if it is for 20
years, it's still there and we know it and I just fee]. there must be some other
alternative that we can come up with here. That doesn't run it right smack down
the middle of our property there.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is anyone else wishing to address this?
A1 Klingelhutz: I guess I'll have to say that a trail along the road is very
important. I think it would be great for anybody living in that area to be able
to take a bicycle or walk to what I think is a major resource in Carver County
and in Chanhassen, Lake Minnewashta Park. I know there's a lot of people going
there now and if our young people could get there in an easier fashion, then
walking or biking along side of a road, would be a real safety factor. I think
some of the discussion that's taking place here tonight should probably call for
a continuation of this hearing until 2 weeks from tonight and we could go out
and take a look at what Jerome Carlson has proposed and come up with a more
satisfactory solution for the whole project. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Councilman Wing: The only question on that would be, would 2 weeks be enough?
Mayor Chmiel: Well that's the question. One of the things that I would like to
suggest ls that a lot of the questions that were brought up thls evenlng, I
think what we should do is come back wlth some of those answers. And also look
at some of the other proposals that have been mentioned. Collector or regular
city street. From a clty standpoint Z understand tile collector and because of
the additional fundlng that would be available, would very possibly cut the
cost. I'd like to know what the difference in the cost are from one to the
other. And I thlnk you can probably pick that up without too much trouble as
opposed from the 31 feet. As opposed to tile 44 driven surface that you were
talklng.
Charles Folch; 36.
Hayor Chmiel: 36, excuse me.
Charles Folch: I do want to point out though that that roadway system is
already on the City's State Aid system even though it's not been built. It's
actually a paper street if you will so the city has been getting drawing needs
and financial monies, havlng that roadway system on our municipal State Aid
system so there is no advantage from a funding standpoint to officially map or
not officially map lt. It's already on the State Aid system.
Mayor Chmiel: I realize that but I just want to know what the cost differences
are.
Charles Folch: Yeah, sure. No, I just wanted to clarify that with the letter
that came from the Ryans
Mayor Chmiel: And then I'd like us to respond to the questions that were brought
up. See if we can't approach it from that aspect. Z would entertain a
34
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
motion...I don't know how much time you would require Charles to pull something
together.
Charles Folch: In order to have ample time to actually get the written Minutes
from the meeting tonight and be able to prepare the responses, we wouldn't
really have it ready in 2 weeks. So you're probably looklng at the first
meeting in April.
Councilman Wing: I would so move that Mr. Mayor.
Councilman Senn: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion? Yes.
(The recording quality was poor of the following discussion and Mary Ryan was
speaklng from the audlence so all of her comments were not picked up on the
tape.)
Mary Ryan: Mr. Mayor, I guess I'd like to...
Mayor Chmiel: That would be the only way of going through, as Mark has
indicated. It would be a combination but that...
Paul Krauss: Well I mean clearly, traffic levels would have to build to the
polnt where...I've got to believe that's...ways off. In fairness too, Mary
and I haven't spoken but I spoke to...and he told me that there's a potential
and agaln, that there's a potential subdivision up on the property. Not the
development but I guess more for tax purposes. Those are the kinds of things
that we don't lnltiate actlon unt11 somebody else does, but if there is a
subdivision, with an officially mapped road, we'd be obligated to recommend to
you that you set aslde the right-of-way at that time... It st111 doesn't mean
that there's emminent construction of this road. I mean clearly the only part
that we're considering bulldlng ls the part that a private property owner is
willing to defray the costs on. But when the road is officially mapped, we do
know exactly where to take right-of-way. It can also prevent people from
bullding a home right where the road's going to go. It does give you a period
of time to say that you cannot bulld in that future right-of-way and allow the
city to pursue acquisition.
Mary Ryan: That's the problem though. If we wanted to build a home...
Paul Krauss: Well again Mary, in fairness to you, that's the point...It doesn't
do you much good to officially map a road and then allow the right-of-way to be
disturbed in such a way that you can't build it anymore...
Mary Ryan: I heard you say that the traffic flows...
Paul Krauss: Well there's only two reasons that the city has ever built roads.
The first is that development ls occurring and lt's needed to serve that
development and get the development to defray most of the cost, or all of the
cost to do that. That seems to be what's happening on the west end. The only
other time the city ever builds anythlng is when there's a clear and present
publlc purpose. That the trafflc levels are dangerous elsewhere because there
35
City Colinc[]. ~leet..i. ng - March 8, 1993
is no alternative route. The fire emergency vehicies can't get through.
can't teiI you, I mean without a traffic anaiysis when that might occur but it's
got to be aiong ways off...for the City Council to do what they're normally
reiunctant to do, and that's to go in and condemn right--of--way and then take the
entire cost of building it...That's reaiiy something that's onIy ever been
considered as a iast ditch...and Z don't think we've ever done it before.
Mary Ryan= I guess I am hearing though that because of the...
PaLtl Krauss~ ~e~l, it's always been considered a collector road and that's
based on the comprehensive plan, the ultimate development of the city, whenever
that occurs, has always anticipated that that would be a collector road.
the Comp Plan never says it's going to be 32 feet or 36 feet or whatever the
right--of-way's going to be. That's...but it's always been labeled as a
collector.
Mary Ryan...
Mayor Chmiel: By the same token you may have some developer that may make that
offer so sweet lhat. you may even choose to move from that location or relocate
f-rom where you're at and sell your property to that developer. One never knows.
It's the same way when I moved into my home and I said, I'm going to live here
the rest of my life. I don't know that for a fact. Someone may knock at my
door and say I'm going to offer you x number of dollars for your home. If it
sounds good enough, I may just so choose to do that. But that's one of those
kinds of situations. You don't petition for that road, it's unlikely that it
probably will go through because it's going through your property. But at the
same time, it's going to enhance the property value of that property as well by
having that as such.
Mary Ryan: I guess I don't see that...a~d for there to be a huge, wide road
going through it, to me diminishes the value of it.
Mayor Chmiel: Well if you look at a lot of the homes that are in and adjacent
to Lake Lucy Road, it hasn't deterred that aspect of it. ~ith the homes that
are there.
Mary Ryan...
Mayor Chmiei: Sure. Okay, we did have action on a motion with a second to
table. Any other discussion?
Councilman Wing: And hold over the public hearing?
Councilman Senn: We're continuing the public hearing, correct?
Mayor Chmiel: That's correct.
Councilman Senn' Just one other question. Personally I guess I'd be interested
in just seeing the data that justifies or I guess shows the eventual need or
whatever for the collector street in that area. I look at that area and the
amount of wetiands and everything else and look at the proposed density of the
existing development. Even if you overlay that density on all the remaining or
36
City Council Meeting - March
appearing buildable land I guess, you know I don't know. Again, I don't know
the history. I don't know the difference so I guess I'd 11ko to see that.
Mayor Chmlel: Okay, I'll call the question.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Senn seconded to table action on the official
mapping of the Lake Lucy Road extension, Project 92-12 until the first meeting
in April, and to hold open the public hearing. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously.
AWARD OF BIDS: PUBLIC SAFETY VEHICLE.
Scott Hart: Mayor and City Council. In your packets I have submitted the
results of our seeking quotes on a 4 wheel drive public safety vehicle and the
cost of the Crown Victoria on the State bid. Rather than reviewing the
specifics that hopefully you've had a chance to review yourselves in the packet.
Because the Chevrolet does not meet the specifications that we had established
after reviewing our needs for a 4 wheel drive vehicle, it is our recommendation
that the bid from Win Stephens Jeep, which is the lowest priced Jeep bid, be
accepted, or in the alternative. If the Jeep is not acceptable to the Council,
that authorization be glven to purchase the Ford Crown Vlctoria on the State bid
from Superior Ford.
Mayor Chmlel: Okay, thank you. I have gone over this and I guess the only
difference I see between from what our State bid is as opposed to our proposal
for the Jeep ls we're comlng out with about $4,364.00 difference. Whlch lsa
substantial amount of dollars, plus the fact it is not 4 wheel drive. The Crown
Victoria. My understanding ls that the Crown Vlotorla would st111 be functional
for the requirement needs of the CSO to go out and pick up dogs and be able to
keep them wlthln the back portlon of that vehlcle as well. They have a, what
-.
type of seat? In the back.
Scott Hart: For the sedan. There's a fiberglass insert available for it.
Mayor Chmiel: There's also a containment that can be put within and still leave
room for that CSO if he goes out and picks up someone. It mlght be a DWI.
They're still able to provide a space to keep that person in the back seat as
well. There's a couple things there that we have to look at. Whereby wlth the
other...so I guess it's a Council call as to what you think we should go into.
Councilman Mason: Living on a very steep hill in the city of Chanhassen, and
having two cars with 4 wheel drive, I know for a fact there are a couple of
times that 2 wheel drlve vehlcles would not have been able to get to some homes
on Woodhi11, Ponderosa, if emergencies occurred. I understand the difference in
price and I guess I'm interested in other Counc11 members comments. I'm
certainly leaning, even with the expense in 4 wheel drive, just because I know
the ease in whlch you can get around in in bad weather and if it saves a few
minutes here and there or if they can get into areas where a regular 2 wheel
drive couldn't get ln, I guess I think it would be worth the expense.
Mayor Chmiel: Well we have our vehicles comandeered by the Sheriff's Oepartment
and they've been able to get around...during storms.
37
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Councilman Mason: I notice '[hat, and I think that's important as well. If I
can also ask a quick question. How would these cars be labeled? I mean elther
the Crown Ulctorla or the, whichever we go with. I mean it says, just like all
ouT' other CSO's.
Scott Hart-' Well it wlll say Chanhassen Publlc Safety on it.
Co~ncilman Senn: As I understood what we got in the packet, the budgeted amount
for this vehicle is $17,500.00.
Scott Hart: We had that money set aside last year and it wasn't spent so that
amount's available, altflough we had originally planned on $t2,900.00.
Councilman Senn: Okay, so we're at StY,500.O0...s~zggestJ. ng in here and the bld
on the Jeep is under that? Zt's at $16,970.00.
Scott Hart: Correct.
Councilman Senn: It seems to hie given the number of times that the CSO has to
drlve to Mason's lmouse, that we ought to glve hlm a 4 wheel drive.
Councilman Wing: ...so I wouldn't support the Crown Victoria if it was
$4,000.00. ~ don't see that as a dog catcher's car, if ~ can slipping about
that. Because that's clearly what lt's going to be used for. Zt's an animal
control, vehicle of[eh tlmes and a Ford Crown Victorla just doesn't fit the bi11.
Mayor Chmlel: Hold on just a mlnute. We have that I'mappenlng right now with the
canine with the Sheriff's Department. ~'11 move approval of the Jeep.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: )l.t's been moved and seconded for the approval of the Jeep.
Councilman Wing' Okay, so discussion then?
Mayor Chmiel= Sure. Discussion.
Councilnlan Wing: My only complaint at all would be that I think that to put a
CSO's in a marked police squad, I don't particularly like. I'd like to see, if
it's going to be the strong percentage of CSO's, just the lssue of CSO's in a
marked squad dolng their job versus a CSO's in a CSO vehlcle. On the other
hand, if the most of lt's use is going to be police, then maybe you don't want
it marked CSO but I don't see that just lgnored. I'm not comfortable with the
CSO in a marked squad doing their job necessarily. If they're not identified
and that may not be an issue...
Mayor Chmlel: Z thlnk as he indicated, it would be properly marked accordingly
and Z look favorably upon those vehlcles shootlng through the community because
one who is ina posltion of saylng...likely to look at your house or my house,
mlght just deter thenl from doing that, with that vehicle moving around.
38
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Resolution ~93-17: Hayor Chmiel moved, Councilwoman Oockendorf seconded to
award the bid for the Public Safety Vehicle to Win Stephens in the amount of
$16,970.00 for a 3eep Cherokee. All voted in favor and the mot/on carried
unanimously.
ESTABLISH 1993 LIQUOR LICENSE FEES.
Public Present:
Name Address
Own Dahlin
581 West 78th Street
Mayor Chmlel: In 1leu of Don Ashuorth's absence, I will automatically start our
next, establishment of our 1993 liquor 11cense fees. I believe this was tabled
from our last meeting ulth concerns as to how and what the current fees are as
opposed to changing those and I thlnk we can see there's a considerable amount
of difference between them. I think it's still best for the Clty to remain on
our existing current fees and pursue that as we move right along. Here he comes
down the stairway.
Councilman Senn: Don, this is good to see the comparisons...basically where we
stand...terrlbly hurting us. One of the thlngs Z klnd of asked, or one of the
thlngs that I guess I was raislng the lssue over last tlme when Z tabled it was
the issue though that, I sat through a oouple meetings where I heard a lot of
concerns about Fllly's. The activities at Fllly's and all that sort of thlng.
I was just surprised to see in our ordinance that we st111 allowed 11censes to
non-restaurant uses. And maybe that doesn't have any real relevancey as it
relates now to approving rates for '93 but is that an issue? Do we want to take
a look at most munlclpalltles...out in this area that I'm aware of that have
switched to a system where liquor licenses are applying to restaurant uses. In
fact they restrlct the limitations on that wlth saying 50~ of gross revenue has
to come from the sales of...
Mayor Chmlel: Rlght. Oon.
Don Ashworth: Over the years we've looked at some of those. And actually the
number of real bar types has reduced. Pony's for years was a constant problem
in that they would, it's very difficult to take and get the records associated
with what the sales are and a lot of places will actually just put in a popcorn
machlne or some type of a microwave, whatever to get around the laws. Then the
City becomes more tuned in and then they pass more laws in terms of more and
more of a percent of the buslness profits have to come from food sales. But it
becomes very difficult again to check all of those. So right now I would say
that any type of stand that you might reasonably take, the Riveria would pass.
Probably Pauly's. The Bowl does serve food. They sell hamburgers, and whatever
else. I'm sure lt's not a big part of thelr business. I haven't answered your
question well but ~ don't know that there is a good answer except we have issued
non-food service type of 11censes forever. Far before I was ever here.
Councilman Senn: But we've also, I mean wasn't Pony's one of the problems?
Problem ones?
39
City Council Heeting - March 8, 1993
Mayor Chmiel: It was a problem at a given time.
councilman Senn: I mean that was part of the reasoning or rationale that went
into buying it wasn't it?
Don Asllworth: No. Basically just cleaning up that corner.
Councilman Senn: Well but that use has something to do with cleaning up the
corner, does i[ not?
Mayor Chmlel: Well lt's probably. Maybe.
Councilman Senn.' Let's say probably it does. Z mean wouldn't...appropriate on
our part to look at a further definition of that to keep ourse].ves out of that
type of situation in the future?
Mayor Chmiel: Well I think we do have that control right now. Either approve
or disapprove.
Councilman Senn: Well but Don, like at the HRA meeting I went to, when the
discussion came up about buylng Chanhassen Bowl and Filly's, again that was one
of the rationale that was used. The problem. A lot of drinking. A lot of
people hanging out, you know blah, blah, blah. And agaln it seems to me well
yOU have the right to...
Hayor Chmiel: I don't think Filly's is probably as much of a problem as what
tile Pony was. Because that attracted a little different type clientele.
Councilman Mason: I wonder if maybe this is something that we feel the need
should be taken a look at, it can be put on an agenda at a later date and we can
go ahead and approve...
Don Ashworth.' Or potentially glve it over to the Publlc Safety Commission. If
you'd like to have them revlew the rationale for restaurant versus bars.
Mayor Chmlel: Because they do normally check them out and check out to see
whether they have any record per se. That uouZd be a good idea.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Can we still move on this?
Hayor ChmieZ: Yes. ~e can put that on a future agenda at some time when we
don't have too much and dlscuss that.
Councilman Senn: I'll move approval.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Resolution ~93-18: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded that the
1993 liquor license fees be established at the same rate as 1992. All voted
favor and the mot/on cart/ed unanimously.
4O
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
SCHOOL/RECREATION ACQUISITION, HIGHMAY 5 AND GALPIN BOULEVARD.
Public Present:
Name Address
Dennis Oirlam
Highway 5 Partnership
Councilman Senn: I asked this to be tabled I guess. Since then I've met with
Oon and with staff and stuff. One of my primary concerns I guess last meeting
when thls came up was kind of being the last item on the agenda, it was booked
as an Administrative Presentation and here we were 3umping into a situation
where the Counc11 was belng asked to take an actlon to approve the acquisition.
I was real uncomfortable with it at that polnt and because I didn't have a lot
of the background and the hlstory on it and so, since then I've met with staff
and I think have gotten that. £ven with the background and history and
everything else I'm st111 real uncomfortable wlth it I guess is what it comes
down to.
Mayor Chmlel: Let me try to maybe make you feel a little more comfortable. I
thlnk we in the past, we've looked at this in the past 4 years as a proposed
slte. I thlnk what I would really like to see ls that maybe we could go through
what I would call a concept approval and probably have Don also dlscuss this
wlth the School Dlstrlct regarding their purchase. In addition, also to
finalize and pursue the agreement with the owner. I don't know, how long would
that really take?
Don Ashworth: I feel that I could be back in front of you withln, I think 2
weeks may be stretching it but I would say wlthin 30 days and have a written
commitment from the School Distrlct as to thelr agreement to repurchase thls
property, or at least 20 acres of this site back from the city upon successful
passage of the referendum by the School District. I think that they would also
be wi111ng to pay interest on that... I'm led to believe that that's the form
of the agreement they have wlth Chaska, although as of tonight I do not have a
copy of that agreement. Getting the signature of the owner, I think if they had
a clear indication thls evenlng that the Council would be approving that subject
to getting this agreement signed with the School District, I'm sure that I could
have that signature wlthin that same timeframe.
Councilman Senn: Don, I guess I'd really like to see one more step added in the
mlddle there. The step I guess I'd really 11ke to see added is that I'd 11ke to
see really, this issue has I think fairly significant impact on the city if,
let's say for no other reason economically or potentially economically. That's,
the economics of this deal has never really been put out on the table and I'd
really 11ke to see a publlc hearing scheduled to do that, and I know there were
a lot of public hearings 4 years ago or whatever over this issue but the issue
at that tlme was land use. It was not the deal we have here, and you know this
is a fairly significant deal with fairly significant ramifications; especially
depending on the outcome of the referendum. I've got a lot of numbers here
since I met with staff that I'd be happy to share with you but maybe that's not
necessary but I'd feel a lot more comfortable if we could schedule a public
hearing and put the economics as well as the full deal so to speak out on the
table and then act on it after we've had an opportunity to get publlc lnput.
41
City Council Meeting --Fiarch 8, 1993
Mayor Chmielr I don't know if public hearing or having a public meeting. I
guess I wouldl]'t really ;]ave any adverse problem with that rather than a public
hearing.
Councilman Senn: I'd like to see it suffic/ently advertised.
Mayor Chmiel: Well we can do that. Yeah, we can do that but still we could
call that a publlc meetlng al~d we could advertise that for the, probably the
12th. The 12th of April whlch is our next meeting. And with that come up wlth
eitl'ler the final declslon and move along wlth lt. I thlnk we're just belaboring
something rlght here and I thlnk we should conslder that. But I'd like reactlon
from the Counc11. Mlke.
Councilman MaSOrl: I think you all know my stand ~n education and the need for
it. It's my understanding that this land is in the TIF district, ls that right?
Mayor Chmiel: That's correct.
Councilman Mason: And TIF monies are monies that come back to the city instead
of going to the State coffers and then we can use how we see fit. Is that
correct?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Councilman Mason: And it seems to me by purchasing this land to build a much
needed elementary school in the city of Chanhassen as opposed to anywhere else
in the area, lsa flne idea. I don't, I see thls as good for the clty
regardless of where I live in the clty and I'm prepared to move on it tonlght.
Hayor Chmiel: Okay. Colleen.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well, I think your point about belaboring it is well
taken. [4e discussed this at our last Council meeting and T thlnk we a11, excuse
me, four Counc11 members stated our oplnions at that tlme and it was just, we
were providing extra tlme for Mark to investigate the issue and I agree wlth
Mlke that we're ready to move on it tonight.
Mayor Chmiel: Richard.
Councilman Wing: So the motion you would want would be the conceptual approval
of the property acquisition with stipulations as mentioned by the Mayor and with
the inclusion of a public meetlng 'For ~prll 12th. Is that correct?
Mayor Chmiol: Information,al..
Councilman Wing: Informational, public meeting. I'll so move that.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'll second it.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion?
Councilman Mason: What are we looking for in this informational meetlng on the
12th? Now is that the same as the...
42
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Mayor Chmiel: We would get to know exactly what the I believe the School
District ~ould feel.
Councilman Senn: We don't even have an agreement.
Don Ashworth: I'd have a written signature back from the School District. We
would also seek to have the seller sign the document and have that in front of
you. I'm sure that the owner would like to take and see that occur for a
meetlng 2 weeks from today. But that just can't happen because if I send in the
notice to the newspaper, the first it would have it would be Friday which would
be for publication for the following week whlch would then come out on Thursday
which would be giving like 2 or 3 days notice in advance of that meeting. So
really the flrst time we could do thls ls Apr11 12th.
Councilman Mason: So what's the purpose of the public informational meeting?
Mayor Chmiel: Just I think to make everybody aware as to what it is and what
we're looking at and put all our cards on the table.
Councilman Mason: So okay. Because this is a major deal here, what we're
looking at right now, what I'm looking at is voting for or against conceptual
approval to purchase like Rlchard sald, based on a slgned agreement from
District and the people that own the land?
Councilman Wing: Those are two stipulations.
Councilman Mason: Those two stipulations.
Mayor Chmlel: But before we act on it, I thlnk Mr. Dlrlam ls here and maybe Z'd
like to just hear an oplnion from him.
Dennis Dirlam: I'm Dennis Dirlam. Obviously we're not crazy about another
delay and you know, I'm trying to be sympathetic, I am being sympathetic to your
situation here too. I guess if we have a conceptual idea, you know we're
getting a good feeling on where you're coming from now, I guess.we'll certainly
walt unt11 the Apr11 12th meetlng. I guess hopefully after that either it's,
you know April 13th either we have something or we don't have something and I
guess that's where we're. We're just really up in the alt right now and we
can't keep putting people off.
Mayor Chmlel: No, I think Aprll 12th you'll have an answer. No more delays
that I can see.
Councilman Mason: Excuse me Mr. Mayor, but I'm assuming if District ~112 is in
agreement with that.
Councilman Wing: It's done.
Dennis Dirlam: I guess the other, the legality thing where you're talking about
something signed from us, again I'm not sure that.
Don Ashworth: Typically what the Council has done is to have the commitment
back from the owners as well. Typically has had that in a written format.
City Council HeeLing -- March 8, 1.993
De~nis BiT-lam: A letter of intent type?
Don Ashworth: Well I'm not quite sure.
Roger Knutson: A signed purchase agreement. Normally that's the wax it works.
We go to the landowner, ltave the landowner sign a purchase agreement so the
Council knows exactly what the deal is. We'll bring it back here and say, here
it .is.
Dennis Dirial,: Okay.
Don Ashworth' Hopefully sign it that night.
Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. I'll call the question.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Oockendorf seconded to give conceptual
approval for acquisition of the property located on Highway 5 and Galpin
Boulevard contingent on reaching agreement with School District ~112 wherein
they would enter into a purchase agreement, similar to the one proposed by
Frauenshuh Companies, that would guarantee the purchase by School District #112
and obtaining written agreement from the owners of the property as well, by the
first City Council meeting in April. All voted in favor except Councilman Senn
who abstained and the motion carried.
REQUEST FOR PROGRAM CHANGE~ TRIAX CABLEVISION, RICHARD FINCH.
Richard Finch: The purpose of my visit here this evening is to obviously
dlscuss the modification oF the requirement to carry our regional channel 6,
which is any of you that are customers of ours would only have to turn to that
channel to see the problems that we have wlth that particular channel. In
addition, to qulckly brlng you up to date oil some of the changes that have
occurred in the operations since I've taken over the relns of this reglon this
past fall, and also answer any of the questions you may have. The reglonal
channel. 6 issue does require a little history. Explanation. Reglonal channel
was really forced on about 4 years ago at the time that we made the acquisition
of the cable sysLenl by another franchise authority that happens to share this
cable system as well. Whlle we dldn't necessarily feel we were obligated to
carry it based on the f~ct that it wasn't really operational, as opposed to
delay our acquisition, we declded to go ahead and try to facilitate that
request. What we did though ls, as opposed to pickirlg it up off the alr like
most anybody else would, because lt's an off air channel, ls that we looked at
several optlons and one of whlch was to lease space on a couple oF other cable
systems in the metro area to plggy back thls channel to us. Which we have wlth
King Vldeo and I believe Paragon. I'm ~ot entirely sure of the other provider.
So in order to get channel ~ to us, the signal has to travel through 110 trunk
amp].ifiers in additlon just to get into o~r system before it's ever transmitted.
And the quality of picture ls obviously what we get. I'm concerned that the
channel's on because tile quality is just sub p~r ~nd as an operator that does
not serve our buslness well when people turn to channel 6 and see this klnd of
picture. Additionally, we can't meet khe FCC technical standards for this
channel. And if we can demonstrate the ablllty to replace programming of that
channel in a sllnilar fashion, that we can come to you and request that
modification. Our proposal ls that we remove it untll such tlme that channel 6
44
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
becomes operational. And then we'll bring it back on but in the interim, and
permanently ue would put CSpan II, whlch is coverage of the Senate, as opposed
to just the House, whlch you currently have now. The problem with channel 6,
and I should revert a little bit to the beginning is that, and I'm not familiar
enough wlth the downtown buildings but either they're sltuated on the top of
the IDS tower or the Pillsbury building. One of the two that are downtown. One
of the two, whichever is the largest, is blocklng that slgnal and they transmlt
in a radlus outward and with that buildlng blocked, we happen to be in those
vold of servlce. So we just can't plck them up off the alt. We've had lengthy
discussions with channel 6 as to how they can resolve this problem, all of which
are extremely expensive on their part and they just simply don't have the
funding at thls point. However, they have indicated that they are dedicated to
getting it to us but there ls no timeframe for that. It could be years before
they'd ever secure that kind of funding. So that's the basis for our request
for the modification to carry channel 6. Our process is that I have a few
franchise holders that have approved it, and then I have a few others that are
all associated wlth thls cable system as well as yours that I need to get that
grant to go ahead and do it. $o it wlll be somewhat of a lengthy process but we
hope that we can do thls in the next couple of months.
Mayor Chmiel: This is at no cost to our subscribers?
Richard Finch: That's correct. That's correct. If you'd like, I could answer
any of your questions on channel 6 at this point.
Mayor Chmiel: I was looking at some of our comparable service rates surveys
that we've gone through. It looks like we're the second highest of 6 cities
that ue reviewed in our cable rate costs.
Richard Finch: I don't know if that survey is entirely accurate. As I was
looking at lt, it appears to me that 3 communities, Brooklyn Park, Eden Prairie
and Apple Valley's rates that you see in the parenthesis of the third panel are
not inclusive of the 5~ clty franchise fee. So you'd have to add 5% on top of
that. Bloomington and Chaska, it is included in those rates that you see. Our
rate, I'm not quite sure where we came to $23.19 but I show our rate of $21.99
is our basic rate with the franchise fee of 5% whlch would take it to $22.99.
So I think that in order to compare apples to apples here, we'd have to
calculate it in the same fashion and I think that you'll find that we're
extremely competitive.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. If I compare apples to apples and look at our basic
service of $14.69 with the expanded service which would give us 23.19 for a
total of 42 channels. And if I were to look at Chaska's, thelr baslc rate of
$8.86 as opposed to, and of course this is different between the number of
channels for that basic rate from 20 to 14 but I'll guarantee you there's a few
channels I never even look at. But are on and I can probably eliminate it back
to 14 or less. But, the point belng that expanded servlce is $23.41 but they
also offer 45 channels which is 3 more than the ones that we have with Triax.
For a minimal difference in cost and the additional.price per channel, as I'm
looking at, is even less per each. And I just wonder why.
Richard Finch: Well you know, it's very hard for me to answer what the other
cable systems are doing. I could probably tell you number one they're probably
45
City Council Me~.;I.[r~9 -, March 8, 1993
larger than our' cablr~, system so the ability to spread out the cost is a little
bit different.
Mayor Chmiel: I don't think so.
Richard Finch: I don't know. I don't know that for a fact.
Mayor Chmiel: We're larger than the city of Chaska and I think we have more
subscribers here.
Richard Fincl',-' Well I think that they service more than just the city of Chaska
or the city of Apple Valley. I'm not. entirely sure. I'm not that familiar.
But I think that once again I think that we're very competitive. There's going
to be some differences of cl~annels and what their" rates are and what they need
and how they can a[fo;'d to maintain their profitability and their financial
make-up, T can't answer for it but I can answer that our rates are where we need
to be so we can have an effective and profitable bus.i_ness~ I did want to kind
of run, since we brought up channels, I ~lso looked at your channel survey which
said that we're not carried by Triax and you indicated Bravo~ CNBC and a Comedy
channel are not carried and in fact they are. In addition, QBC is a shopping
channel. Now we have the Home Shopping channel and I don't 'think too many
people are going to want another home shopping network added to their cable
system. So there are some minute differences. We're really getting into some
fringe programming at this point that ue don't carry on our' cable system. As
I looked in the future I think that country music television and sci-fi channel
are probably going to be the ~ext two that will be added in our cable system.
As to whether that comes this year, I've not yet determined that but sci-fi has
a very likely chance of being added in the second half of thi:~ year. And ~ do
know that we have an obligation to the country music channel and whether that
obligation needs to be fulfilled this year or next year, I know the country
music channel wlll eventually be added to the cable system in the near future.
Councilman Senn: Don, I think your comment's well taken. I really wish I would
have brought it tonight because I'm golng to say not ek, en 30 days ago or within
the last 30 days there was a survey published in the paper that showed Trlax as
the highest. Not the second highest.
Mayor- Chmie].: I was just making it comparable between the ones we just had.
Councilman Senn: Yeah, and stuff so I mean I think, I'm not sure that lt's a
falr statemen( to '.say everything's comparable. Another questlon I really though
was, I also looked at least at that newspaper one and some of the other ones
that were a lot lower priced. Oh Minnetonka, Hopkins, etc. I mean they have
community based studios and Eden Prairle. Community based programming. There
seems to be an effort far beyond what's occurring in Chanhassen at least as far
as ~ can see. Yet again those franchises a're charging, at least in that survey,
a substantially lower charges so that's just I guess in support of your
comments. I had a couple questions I guess I'd really like dealt with that I've
had people call. me on lately. That is that I've heard from several people now
that they keep calling to get cable and they keep getting a different answer
each month as to why they can't get cable. I guess I'm just, if Triax is
servicing Chanhassen~ I guess my cluestion is why can't they get cable when
people less than a block away from them have cable. And I guess if that can't
City Council Heeting - March 8, 1993
happen, and they see these cost issues and stuff, I just am really wondering if
ue should be looking at a more competitive situation. I mean I don't know the
answer but I guess I'd like to hear an answer to that in terms of why these
people who have been asking for a month can't get cable.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: And as one of those people. I'm not asking for it.
It's the last thing I want but what I really don't want even less is satellite
dishes in my neighborhood and we've been circumvented for years. Going around
us and absolutely refusing to come in our neighborhood and maybe Todd you can,
you know where I live. Do you know an answer?
Richard Finch: What development is that?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Timberuood Estates.
Councilman Senn: I live in Kurvers Point. I mean I've got it and a lot of
people a block away from me in our development don't have it and.
Richard Finch: And that's a very difficult one to understand. And the reason
behlnd it ls simply that the way our systems our designed, that there are
limitations and that it lsn't as simple to, even if they're a block away, that
ue can't just quickly run a 11ne down there without some potential extension of
the amplification system getting deeper into the cable system than just say a
block away. We may have to go back to the maln trunk station. We may have to
go back and go further so the cost effectiveness of doing that can make a
difference in that. So there ls some reason behlnd it if somebody behlnd you
has it and somebody a block away doesn't. There is some rationale that I could
explain to you if I knew the particular circumstances and allowed me to take a
look at the maps and so on. But one thing I do want to let you know what I
found when I got here was a real problem wlth extension of cable servlce into
these new developments. If anything is clear, if I haven't already gotten the
message by sitting here tonight, ls that you have a very fast growing community.
And unfortunately I don't think Triax has done a very efficient job of keeping
up wlth lt. And this year the plans are that I've already alloted money for
certain projects and I'll be more than happy to tell you which ones those are.
And that I have other projects that are slated and that elther by securlng
additional funding and/or getting some help from our developers that are in
there dolng these developments, to help wlth the upfront cost associated with
bringing these cable service into these markets, we can get cable service to
these customers. But it's important to remember that we can't effectively bulld
and get a fair return on our investment until we approach 30 homes per mile
crlterla and that's 30 cable mlles, not necessarily road miles. And that ls
the mark point where we start to take a good look at and it says, okay it makes
it feasible. But what Z had mentioned ulth Todd ls that hopefully wlthln the
next few weeks I'll be able to get together with you and the city and tell you
where we stand on these projects. Let you know which ones we'll be dolng. Let
you know where we stand on the ones that, when I did my budgeting £n November,
that there were no homes there and now I have 7 or 8 there. That we need to
deal with and whether the developer's going to help us out and get it in there
or I've been able to secure additional funding to bulld these projects thls
year. The ones that are absolute that barring any circumstances that I'm
unaware of that would effect our capltal. I have Flamingo Drlve, Foxford Road,
Country Oaks, Kurvers, and Reed Circle all scheduled to be done this year. The
47
City Council. Meeting - March 8~ 1993
ones that we're going to have to deal with, either with the developers or secure
additional fur, dil~g, are going to be the Bluff Creek Estates, Chanhassen Hills'
and 8th, the Zthiliens, which is rapidly becoming a very feasible build. The
Summit and Willou Ridge. Now those are the ones that we've been able to
identify and I know there will probably be a few more out there. But those are
the ones that right now I don't have any firm commitment that we're going to be
able to do yet this year but I'm sure that ue'll be able to do a few of those.
Mayor Chmiel: With new residential developments that we have coming in, you're
probably going to have 500 more. I guess that's some of the things that I keep
looking at. One other thing. Oil your connections uithin the home. That's
$4.95 a flat fee for, or is it $5.00?
Richard Finch: Up to 4 fol-
Mayor Chmiel: Up to 4. You know years ago Northwest Bell Telephone had jacks
withi~ the house and wherever you had a jack you paid additional amount of
dollars for those jacks. The federal government made them remove that cost on
those jacks to them. Why~ if we're providing or if we're having that service
given to us, why is it necessary for us to pay up to 4 at that $4.95? 4nd why
is that charge included into your cost?
Richard Finch: Okay. That happens to be a very common question that we hear
quite a bit of and it happens to be one of the issues that the FCC is addressing
with this new S-12 that was passed. I don't think they're going to come up with
ti~e same kind of FulJ. ngs. There's a couple of factors that get involved in it.
Even though you had several jacks within your house for a telephone, you could
still only pick up and make one phone call. So you only had use of one
telephone at that time, whereas cable television you could have 6 televisions
sets on 6 different channels so there's a use issue. There's a value associated
with it. ~dditionally, there's some FCC requirements as it relates to signal
leakage that ue have to maintain which says, since us're utilizing some
aeronautical frequencies, they have to be contained in the cable system and
frequently when people go and wire their pun outlets, which ue do know they do,
they don't do it very well mild it does leak and so we are held responsible for
that, so that's another issue. ~nd another issue comes up is that our system is
designed to drive signal and if I had 10 houses that I designed for say a
capacity of 4 outlets and ail 10 of those decided to have 8 outlets, we uould
have to go back and modify the design of the system. It's not like a telephone
line where you just gain access to one of them. So we have to be careful as to
the capacity of that being used because every time you split if off, it's like a
hose. There's going to be less water coming out at the end. So there is some
reasoning behind it. It's an issue that's going to be addressed. I don't think
they're going to come in and say carte blanche they're going to do what the
telephone company did.
Mayor Chmiel: Well it could take place and the only reason I say that is
because with fiber optics and all. the new innovative ways of bringing in a
picture or anotbe'r' company or Northwest Bell or whoever, could have that
opportunity to pipe into whoever wants whatever they want. 4nd so that was my
main reasoning ill questioning as to why. I think to be competitive with the
outside to what's coming up, I think it would behoove Triax to probably think
48
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
about some of those things to provide their customers with those additional
incentives.
Richard Finch: Yeah, and the key is obviously that we currently depend on that
revenue stream and if you eliminate that revenue stream, you've got to reap it
somewhere. And we would certainly not want to try to lncrease the rates, the
basic rates because of that and hopefully through some of the other acquisition
of pay per view, whlch we're trylng to get more lnvolved ln, advertising
revenues that hopefully are going to start to kick in a little bit more, that we
can count on some of those other things. Those other steams of revenues that we
haven't had in our cable system to help defray that, if it does become a
reallty. I know it lsa major consumer polnt that they feel they should be able
to do anything they want with their wire because the telephone company did but,
and it's a tough one for most people to understand.
Don Ashworth: Mr. Mayor. I don't think that you or I have had a chance to meet
Mr. Flnch before. I know that you and I had met with a representative of the
cable company from 3, 6, probably closer to months ago, if not maybe longer.
I thlnk that there were some lssues on the table that we probably didn't get
answers to. Resolved at that point in time. It would appear as though we have
some other lssues currently in front of the Councll that I'm hearing Councll
would like to see some of the maps as they deal with some of the neighborhoods.
If Mr. Flnch ls aware that they are going to go through, and maybe some analysis
of those areas that the Council has questions why aren't they in a particular
neighborhood. When I flrst saw the lssue on the reglonal channel, and I don't
know the current status of Statute and law. At one point in time it was the
responsibility of the cable companies to insure that channel 6, not only would
be dedicated but would be shown. And I think over the years I noted there's a
lot of jostling between the companies and the regional people in terms of who's
at fault. My original recollection was is that the Statute put the onous back
on the cable company to resolve that problem. Now I'm more than wllllng to slt
down and see if, you know maybe it's not resolvable. Maybe the suggestion that
they're coming back with ls the only one, but I really feel that there's a
number of issues that are on the table that I would like to have the opportunity
to slt down wlth Mr. Flnch. Hopefully the Mayor wlll joln me. We would bring
back up some of the issues we had before. I'd like some clearer answers to this
reglonal channel 6 lssue. I'd 11ke to see what it is that they are proposing to
construct. Why we're not getting into some of the other neighborhoods. And I
would even 11ke to explore some of the, I don't get complaints as to the cost.
I know that Councilman Senn had brought that up. The number one complaint that
I recelve is the lack of belng able to get certaln channels. Specifically,
PSN seems to be a real hot one as far, because that's primarily sports and a lot
of that activity. We don't have it. You're saylng that you now are carrying
the The Movie Channel, and Comedy. Good. I'm happy about that but those were
two other ones that I continuous got complaints on.
Councilman Wing: Before we get off channel 6. I'd rather have it blank than
have the Senate hearlngs myself. What are the cholces that 'ti1 you resolve the
local regional issue, what else could you put in there? What else would be
entertaining enough to 3ustify lt?
Richard Finch: Well I think the issue is that we want to try to maintain that
governmental channel of some nature and that's why C-Span II was the logical
City Council Heoting -. H,.~,rch 8, 1993
choice. I don't know of any other channel that could fill that void ur, der that
same type of programming that's out there. So I really don't know of an answer
for lt. Now from an entertainment standpoint, there's a couple other channels
that we could add, but that doesn't resolve our issue with channel 6 and that
we'd actually be, the mix of programming would be changed and we're trylng not
to change ti'mat mix of programming, is my at~empt.
Mayor Chmiel: Todd, have we acquired the information that we requested on
revenues and things of that nature?
Todd Gerhardt: We should have that by the end of next week, rlght?
Richard Finch: Yeah, I've got it scheduled for, it should by March 15th. You
should get a revenue analysis spreadsheet which will break down all the revenues
and the various categories where before, it's my understanding you weren't
gettln9 that. In addltlon it has an independent audit associated wlth your
franchise fee payment. So you should get that. That was o~'dered and they
should be there by March 15th.
Mayor Chmiel: What I'd suggest is that we take no action at this time and table
this until all these other things get resolved. Comes back to Council.
Councilman Senn: So moved.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: Zt's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion?
Richard Finch: If I may. Could Z just touch on a few other issues or did you
want to resolve that lssue at that polnt? Z mean did you want to pass your
motion just to, ~ just have a couple of quick issues ~'11 touch on. I won't
take much more of your time.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. We'll give you about 2 more seconds.
Richard Finch: A couple things I wanted to let you know is obviously with the
growth, I reformula[ed our technical staff and added ano[her technician into the
system. Predominantly there ls one that uill be an area dedicated to your
community. Your community's activities dictated it. The desire is to decrease
the length of time for installation to under 7 calendar days, not uorklng days
and we've been able to maintain that with the addition of the technician in the
area. In addition, these technicians aren't just golng to be dolng lnstalls and
disconnects. They're also golng to be dolng service work whereas before we only
two people that were doing the servlce work. So we've gone through thls
training process and iL's continuing in the hope that we'll see a better
'response to some of those lssues that tlme of installation and servlce calls. In
addition a new phone system u111 be installed. ~n our main office we'll expand
our 11ne capability to be able to handle calls better and also be able to track
where our hot points are. Peaks and valleys. In addition, some of our
personnel will be undergoing some more tralnlng as it relates to customer
service. Things that they may not have gone through before. So hopefully we'll
see some changes orl those fronts. But I do, in closlng just want to let you
know that I'm committed to trying to communicate with the cities better than
5O
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
what we have in the past. I think that that's the problem has just been the
lack of communication. The lack of knowledge. Nobody knowing. The developer
not knowing. The customers not knowing. The city's not knowing. What was
occurring as it relates to their development and that's what I hope to try to
bridge this year. And I look forward to meeting with you.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Appreciate it.
Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Nason seconded to table the request for
program change by Triax Cablevision for further discussions. All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
SITE PLAN REVIEW, TECHNICAL INDUSTRIAL SALES, 1~,410 Sg, FT. OFFICE/~AREHOUSE
BUILOING, NORTH OF PARK ROAD, EAST OF PHT.
Public Present:
Name Address
3on Heidinger
Mark Undestad
1240 Ottawa Avenue So, 55416
8800 Sunset Trail
Sharmin Al-Jaff: This is a very simple site plan. The applicant is proposing
to construct 16,410 square foot office/warehouse...located along the north and
east part of the site. The architecture of the building is fairly simple...is
the maln material. There ls some glazed tlle for accent. Metal pitched
elements have been incorporated into the facade of the building. The
landscaping ls of hlgh quallty and we are recommending approval of the whole
plan. There are two points that I would like to, two conditions if I may, I
would like to add to the conditions of approval. First one is that the
landscaping along the south of the property be staggered. And a parking space
rlght here, along the northwest corner be strlped rather than turned lnto an
island. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is the applicant here?
Mark Undestad: Mark Undestad with Eden Trace Corporation, the architect of the
project here and the ltems that Sharmin has just gone through. We have made the
changes on the renderings here and they'll be made on the building permit plans.
This shows we dld make the changes on staggering the trees in the front there...
Mayor Chmiel: So you're in agreement basically with what has been said by
staff? Just one question. Belng thls ls going to be a combination office/
warehouse facility, what's going to be contained within the warehouse ltself?
My concern ls chemicals.
Mark Undestad: ...from TIS here, he can explain that.
Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you.
3on Heidinger: Mr. Mayor, I'm Jon Heidinger. I'm an outside director of TIS
and it's a manufacturing rep organization and primarily the only thing that wlll
be stored in the warehouse are some cast iron valves that are manufactured by
51
City Council. Mee~.ing .,. March 8, 1993
FMC that our ma3or customers are Koch Refining, NSP, Minneagasco, things like
that. Light, maybe 8 people total will be ir, the building. That's it.
Mayor Chmiel.' Very good. Thank you. Any other questions? Discussion.
6ould I have a metier,?
Councilman Mason: I'll move approval of site plan review for Lot 3, Block 1,
Chan Lakes Business Park, 5th Addition.
Councilman Wing: Second_
Mayor Chmiel: It's been i,ov~.d afmd seconded. Any other discussion?
Councilman Senn~ A question if I could. Under the section on property is
expected to receive tax increment financing assistance th]'ough the City's
Housing and Redevelopment Authority. Is that the normal sewer and water?
Mayor Chmiel: That's the norm.
Todd 6erhardt-" In this case they would qualify for special assessment write
downs and...3 year tax increment policy of the HRS.
Mayor Chmiel: That is the norm with each of the people that are contained
within that area.
Todd 6erhardt: It's a large building and there was approximately $32,000.00 a
year so you would qualify for about $~06,000.00 worth of assistance. And Z
think specials are somewhere around $40,000.00 so they would see about
$50,000.00...
Mayor Chmiel: Hearing no other questions, I'll call the question.
Councilman Hason: Just for ~.he record, do those two conditions need to be on
there even though they've already been taken care of?
Sharmin Al-3aff: Yes please.
Councilman Mason: I'll make that as a friendly amendment to my motion.
Nayor Chmiel: Bees the second accept the friendly amendment?
Councilman Wing: Sure.
Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve Site Plan Revie~
~3-1 as sheen on the site plan received March 4, 1~93, subject to the follouing
conditions:
1. The applicant shall submit a detailed drawing of proposed signage. A
separate sign permit is required.
2. The applicant shall obtain and comply with all conditions of the Watershed
District permit as ou~li~ed in tl~eir attached memo dated February 4, 1993.
52
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
3. All disturbed areas should be seeded or sodded immediately upon completion
of the parking lot. The City's boulevard along Park Road must be sodded.
Vegetation along the north shall be replaced wlth a mix of conlfers and
deciduous trees.
4. Connection to the City's storm sewer system shall be in accordance to Clty
standards. City staff shall inspect and approve the storm sewer connection
prior to extension onto the site. The applicant's contractor shall contact
the City's Engineering Department for an inspection 24 hours in advance of
the proposed work. At the tlme of building permit issuance, the applicant
shall escrow $500.00 with the City to guarantee the proper installation of
the storm sewer and payment of any inspection fees lncurred by the Clty.
5. Heet all conditions of the Fire Marshal as outlined in his memo
dated January 26, 1993.
The landscaping along the south of the property shall be staggered.
7. The parking space along the northwest corner shall be striped rather than
turned into an island.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
AFFIRHATION OF ALTERNATIVE ALIGNHENTS FOR THE ENVIRONHENTAL ASSESSHENT STUDY
NORTH OF HIGHWAY 5 BETWEEN POWERS BOULEVARD ANO HIGHWAY 41.
Public Present:
Name Address
Jay Oolejsi
Lee Kerber
6961 Chaparral Lane
1620 Arboretum Boulevard
Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, this is one of the first products of the Highway 5 Task
Force. Many of you were in attendance last week at the Planning Commission
where this was heard. The Highway 5 Task Force has worked'along 11nes
established by the Comprehensive Plan and Blll Morrish to develop an access
boulevard system north and south of Highway $. These are often times called,
well boulevards. They're called an extension of main street. They're called
lots of things depending on who you ask. But clearly the idea for the northern
one, whlch we'll be focuslng on tonight, is to allow development to occur. To
allow trips to occur such that anybody north of Highway 5 can access a variety
of public facilities in the downtown and employment centers without having to go
onto Highway 5. Highway really is for more long haul trips. The design
standard has been established of, I forget what the exact right-of-way width
but it's relatively narrow right-of-way width with the trail and extensive
landscaping. The Counc11 established a goal of making sure that consideration
of these roads does not derail the Highway 5 construction program. Also
sure you're all aware of the fact that MnDot has agreed to cooperate wlth the
City on this north access boulevard, agreeing to share the construction costs
and agreelng to conslder sharlng some of the right-of-way acquisition costs.
The condition was that the City undertake the required environmental assessment
document, which we are in the process of doing. Two alternative roadway
53
City Council Meeting --Harc.'.h 8, 1993
concepts have beel] developed. I think you've all got those roadway concepts
1,%id out in your packet. I've got a very long one here that if need be I can
open up but I don'f, have it on arl overhead. Basically you have two
alternatives. Ther e'.~ a northern alternative and a southern alternative a~d
there were several crossover points. So in essence you can kind of have a
Chinese menu by picking one from 6olumn A, one from Column B. The Task Force
tried to whittle down some of these alternatives prior to the start of the
Environmental Assessment. They found that J.t was a little bit of a cart and a
horse situation. That until we had ~11 the information on land use decisions
that were going to be made, they felt that they couldn't chop these back any
further. $o we worked with our consultants to make sure, or to be assured that
these alternatives can be carried through the study process. ~hen this E~ is
completed, you will then have an opportunity to select the preferred route. So
you will I,ave to conclude ~his at, I think it's by mid-summer we've been told
the E~ would be done. ~t that poir, t you select your preferred route and it's
that preferred route ~ith the E~ that's [oruarded to MnDot and the Fed's for
fur, ding assistance. So tn essence we're keeping our options open and not
precluding anytl~ing at this point. The two alternatives that were developed are
based upon existing and proposed land use patterns, environme~tal opportunities
and constraints and input, as /. said by the Comp Pl.'.,n and the Horrish study. ~n
a lot of cases there really aren't, well in most cases 'there really are
virtually no viable options beyond those two that are being :shown. You either
run into a wetland or some other major lmpediment. ~nd ;tn some areas it's clear
ti,at you or, ly really have one alternative. For example when you skirt the city
park, not running through the park property. Then there's needs to offset
intersections for' safety sake and what not. ~e did not have the consultants
here tonight to give their spiel again. ~e felt that time could be better used
to be working on the next phase of the Highway 5 stuff. This is pretty much
stuff that a lot of you heard last week and most of the folks I see in the
audience /. think have been through that as well, at least on several occasions.
We are recommending that you affirm the alignment alternatives so that the E~
can be star,.ed_ Until we do this, the consultants can't go forward with the
Environmental hssessment. In affirming the alternatives, you're not picking any
one over' the other. You're just saying that these are the viable options that
should be studied and you will, as I said, have the opportunity to pick the
preferred route when it's over. ~ith that I'll cut tills short and respond to
any questions you want to ask.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Is there a~ybody in the audience that wishes to
address anything at this particular time, or has any questions regarding what
we're doing?
Lee Kerber: I'm Lee Kerber and I'm going to lose my house. Are you going to
pay ,,e 3-4 year's ahead of time so that I can go look around? You charged me 2-3
years ago for an assessment, which I haven't been able to use. How do we work
those sort of things? ~nd why do you need to come all the way up, according to
the drawing I sau last week. Why do you need to come all the way up to my
house? ~hat ,~dvantage is there in having it way out there and going right
through the middle of my property rather than staying next to the highway? ~nd
how long after' the highway is done, are you going to put in the frontage road?
Paul Krauss: ~ell, I can respond to the last question. I kind of lost, maybe
Sot, can add some ~.o the first. This frontage road would be, or access boulevard
54
City Council. Meeting - March 8, leg3
would be construction concurrently with Highway 5. In fact there's some
discussion, I think it hasn't been determined, about building it sllghtly in
advance of Hlghway 5 and thereby allowing the use of it to off load traffic on
Highway $ when that's under construction. The timeframe for this periodically
slips back a little blt but it is a scheduled project. Don, do you recall what
the current timeframe is?
Don Ashworth: Well, 1995-96 and I would put money on '96. And they allow 2
years prior to the letting of the contract is the start of the acquisition
process to lnsure that the acquisitions are completed prior to the actual
construction. So if that were the timeframe, I would anticipate the State
negotiating wlth owners, such as Mr. Kerber, starting in 1994.
Mayor Chmiel: In other words what he's saying Lee is that you would have
probably 2 years lead time to meet or have negotiations wlth the Highway
Department and give you that opportunity to find something within the city or
wherever you choose to go. If this all goes through once the EA is completed.
Councilman Wing: But that assumes that we're going to take his house. The EA
mlght say we don't want to take his house. We're going to move this $0-60 feet
north and leave the homestead. That could happen too, is that right?
Mayor Chmiel: That's a potential, but that does then split his property there.
Don Ashworth: Do you like one of the two alternatives or are you against both?
Lee Kerber: Well according to my house, there is no alternative. You're coming
straight across Highway 5 right up to my house and then they're going to go west
and then there's a possible of going further one way or another south or north.
...my house there is no alternative as far as I can see.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah it goes right, just about right through. Yeah, and that
could posslbly change.
Paul Krauss: ...alternative in that area, we're kind of hampered by the fact
that Audubon Road is here and no matter what you do, you need to provide
adequate separation for that intersection whlch boots the road back up whlch
puts it square in the middle of that home.
Lee Kerber: Here you've got an alternative coming down part way and that's the
only way.
Paul Krauss: The only way to avoid it really ls to eliminate the intersection
with Audubon, which has actually been talked about from time to time.
Mayor Chmiel: That was something that was discussed at one time in making that
into a cul-de-sac portion and utilizing the south servlce road then to have
access back onto TH 5 down farther, rlght.
Councilman Wing: Paul, according to that we really can't go much further north
elther because then we get lnto the ravine, lsn't that right?
Paul Krauss: Well you start getting in the ravine.
City Council Mc~ti~g .- March
Mayor' Chmie].: Right where we feed the deer right Lee?
Lee Kerber: From there you go, Z saw 3 of your deer out there tooklng for more
app].es today...
Mayor Chmiel: I've got some in the garage I'll bring over tomorrow.
Paul Krauss: I'm not certain but there is the State sponsored right-of-way
acquisition loan fund that is administered by the Metro Council. We haven't
used il in Chanhassen and I'm not sure if this road would qualify but since it's
basically serving a frontage road function for a State Highway project, it
might. So it may offer, we may be able to offer you an early buyout through
that program but if, I can speak to you about that directly Lee. I'll find out
more informatio;~ about that. If you're looking to do it earlier, that may be an
option.
Lee Kerber: We're not looking to do it at all but I don't think we'll have a
whole lot of choice.
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe what you could do is get back to Lee and let hlm kr, ow.
Lee Kerber: Pardon?
Mayor Chmie].: What Paul will do is get back to you and let you know whether
there is that kind of alternative to offer you some money up front prior to
that. If the EA, the environmental assessment even dlctates that that's where
lt's really going lo be.
Lee Kerber: Do I have to buy hinl off...I've flnally got it almost llke I want
J.t and it goes out the tube.
Mayor Chmiel" Yeah, I reallze that. Thanks. Is there anyone else?
Jay Oolejsi: lty name is Jay Oolejsi. I own property west of tile golf facility.
I've been attending the Hlghway 5 coaJ. lLlon meetings. I'd 11ko to bring my
concerns for the Council. Both of those alternatives that are golng through my
property are going to severely impact the property. Both are golng to be doing
damage to my pr'operty more titan just the width of the right-of-way. Of the two
alternatives, I prefer Alternative 2 whlch I think wi].1 do less, have less of an
lmpact. The other concern I have is the uncertainty of the situation. You're
talklng about Lake Lucy Road and the people havlng a road scheduled sometime
lnto the future oil their property being upset. Well. ~ know this one's coming.
It's not a matter of somewhere in the future. My property was put lnto that
1995 study area somewhat arbitrarily I feel in that it's an island so to speak
and I'm wondering how thls is golng to be assessed back. Who's golng to pay for
it. How you beneflt property that has no utilities to it. Well these are the
concerns that I have as far as thls pro~ect.
Mayor Chmiel: We don't reaJ. ly know ali. those answers but hopefully after the EA
ls done, we may have some answers from that because we can't say one or the
other route J:s goJ. ng to go. T just look at the routing in itself and I sort of
11ko that Alternative 2 myself rather than Alternative 1.. But that's just my
opinion. Any other discussion?
56
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Councilman Mason: Something like this is very painful, particularly for people
that are directly in the path and I would hope that the City and the people that
the City hired for consultants and engineers take a real hard look at that
property and see if there is a way we can accommodate the concerns, particularly
of Mr. Kerber.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I agree with that.
Councilman Mason: If in fact, well I just hope that's, it's one thing for an
engineer to drau some lines, and I'm not demeaning that in any way, but they're
not the people that have tlo deal uith uatchlng thelr house get bulldozed doun
and moving after someplace they've been in for 35 years, and that's a whole
other lssue.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, and that was one of the things that I made a suggestion to
Paul at the time is potentially maybe having a cul-de-sac on Audubon Road and
not havlng that access out onto that highway, only because if someone's golng to
be going westbound and making that cross through, to me that could cause a lot
of problems. A lot of accidents as well.
Councilman Wing: The problem is Lee's in a bad position because no matter what
we do, I mean let's just make the assumption thls road ls going through but
whether we put it rlght next to the hlghway or he's still an island and rlght
now he has thls plot of land that he's enjoyed for 35 years. Along comes
progress and no matter what we do, he's going to be in the middle of nowhere
here between two major roads, and that's a concern for hlm. So he in fact may
choose to move to more peaceful areas but the worse thing is for all the owners,
because this is so conceptual, we can't answer any questions rlght now. That's
the hard thing for me ls to recognize that we can't even tell them what's going
to happen to thelr house because it's so conceptual. But I think it's important
that their concerns be known so that they're the top of the head the whole way
here.
Mayor Chmiel: Good point. Okay. Anyone else? If not I would entertain a
motion.
Councilman Wing: I'll so move the affirmation, because these are the
established roads. We have to make no decisions so other than to continue the
progress on this, I wlll move affirmation of alternative alignments and wlthout
favoring 1 or 2, because they both have to be done anyway as part of the
Mayor Chmiel: Right, EA.
Councilman Wing: EA.
Councilman Senn: Couldn't we take care of Lee and move it north through Don's
house lnstead?
Mayor Chmiel: Sure. He can come and see me and we can put the apples in the
backyard but I don't think the deer will come there.
Counciluoman Dockendorf: I'll second the motion.
57
City Council Heetil~g --Hatch 8:1997
Hayer Chmiel.' It's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion?
Coun(;it~¢oman Oockendorf:: I ju~-;t have one questioll. When did it. get named
Arboretum Boulevard? That's a new one on me.
Paul I<rauss; We].]. actually that ~as something that Morrish talked about. It's
been called, like I say if.'s been called a lot of things. I think if you look
at ~he Morrish study, I,e called the south boulevard ~rboretum Boulevard and
the north boulevard Char,hassen 8oulevard or something like that.
Council. woman bockendorf: Yeah, it makes more sense.
Cottr, cilman Wing: Yeah. how did that happen?
Pau]. Krauss: We].]. we real£zed that i:l~e south boulevard didn't have the
continuity that the north boulevard had so the north boulevard got the fancier
I'm 6~ m ~. ~
Resolution ~93-19: Councilman Wgng moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to
affirm the draft alternatives for analysis in the Environmental Assessment
document north of Highway 5 between Powers Boulevard and HJgh~ay 41. All voted
in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVISION 17.2 ACRES INTO 35 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS; REZONING
FROM A2, AGRICULTURAL ESTATES TO RSF, RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY, EAST OF COUNTY
ROAD 11Z, ONE-HALF MILE NORTH OF HIGHWAY 5. ROTLUND COMPANY.
Public Present:
Name Address
OCR Jensen
Bret Davidson
Roltlund Copmanies
7291 Galpin Blvd.
Jo Ann Olser,: Timis is a pretty simple subdivision. As you said, the applicant
ls proposing to subdivide lnto 35 single family lots. There ls really no
significant featltres of this site. It's been farmed~ It's ~ust a rolling
topography. There's no ~etland, vegetation or anything. Planning Commission
did recommend approval with a coup!e of clla~ges to the planning staff's
recommendations. We are recommending that the Clty Councll adopt approval with
those changes to the conditions ~nd ~.he other staff col~dltions as were presented
to the Plannlng Con,mission.
Mayor Chmiel: okay. Thank yOU JO Anrl. Is Rottlund here this evening? Would
yoL~ like to just give us a f~-;u words of uisdonl.
Don Jensen; A Few words of wisdonl I'm not sure I ca~l impart but Don Jensen,
Land Development Manager ~,itll Rottlund COnlpany, 52.01 East River Road, Frldley.
We've reviewed the staff report and all the various recommendations. We accept
those recommendaf, ions ns good conditions. We have a couple of issues wlth items
number 3 and 4 of [he report on page 8 that we received. We have been
discussJ, ng possl[)Jli[ies of temporary access and the Future pondlng that are
golng to bo reqltired (o the property to the north. Bret Davidson is here
58
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
tonight to listen and for his own particular issues and clarifications. Part of
the drainage for this particular project goes off slte in two different
directions and the clty is asking by condition that the Rottlund Company put
temporary holding ponds on up to 3 of the lots, as well as pay cash in lieu of
future downstream pondlng. We would just 11ke the ability to work with staff
and the Council as you decide what the downstream ponding charges are. It's a
11ttle bit ambiguous by the condition as to what the cap on those amounts mlght
be and we would just 11ke that to be specific to the lots on our plan perhaps
that do not have the pondlng provided for. The western portion of our
development does have a NURP pond and does control rate of release downstream.
So that's our main concern is conditions 3 and 4. Otherwise we are fine wlth
all of the conditions, including the ones that were extended by the Planning
Commission, number 22. We would like to see perhaps a sunset to the temporary
ponding on the varlous lots. At such tlme as the city makes some downstream
pondlng available or that there's some type of timeframe that ls attempted, so
that for the lots, if we do have lots where the building pad ls taken out for
temporary pondlng, that there ls some due diligence or obligation on the part of
the city to continue to moving forward as quickly as progress allows for that to
happen. And also, if in fact Mr. Davidson to the north ls successful with his
application, that as soon as a final plat for that property occurs, that
conditions placed on thls subdivision for temporary ponding would be removed.
think the staff report was written not contemplating what's going on immediately
around us and to the extent that we have a condition that is at least removed
when new development is ripe, we would prefer that. I have no further comments
or questions, unless the Councll or staff has those.
Mayor Chmiel: Jo Ann. With ltem number 22, there should be 22 conditions
contained and it shows 21 the Councll should move on. And to put that drainage
easement must be granted for the pond located in the southwest corner and other
temporary ponding areas is necessary.
Jo Ann Olsen: Rlght. And on page 10, we're showing the changes and 22 should
be added as the changes to i and 20.
Mayor Chmiel: Council action should take the 22 conditions rather than 21.
Jo Ann Olsen: Right. And the changes to 1 and 20. And as far as what Don has
brought up, we can work with that prior to final plat approval. That's really
more for engineering to answer and I don't see any problem with it. I don't
know that we can put a cap on the fees. We can maybe, like you said, tie it in
with certaln lots.
Don Jensen: Well we just wanted to get a chance to work with staff. It's
difficult to figure out what your end price ls to assign values to homes and
lots if you ultimately don't know when the Councll is going to act on the
particular program that you're contemplating. The only other recommendation we
could have ls, as solutions are brought, we would prefer that staff and the
Council look at conditions that might be tied to building permit rather than the
very front end. So if the lot ls taken out for temporary pondlng, that we're
not paying a fee for future downstream ponds, which this temporary ponds provide
our assistance for and pay for everything up front. Whereas if the city can
find a solution, only when those lots come through for building permlt.
City Council Meeting - Harch 8, 1993
Mayor Chmiel: I think .staff can probably discuss that with you and come up with
a conc].usion.
Don Jensen: Thank you.
Mayor ChmZel: Any questions? Can Z have a motion?
Councilman Senn: Z move approval.
Couniclman Mason; Second.
Mayor Chmiel: Hove approval with all 22 conditions of Subdivision ~93-d and
Rezonlng ~93-1 for tile Wirldmil]. Run Subdivision.
Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve Subdivision ~93-4
and Rezoning ~93-1 for Windmill Run Subdivision wi. th the following conditions:
1. Elevation of the southerly cul-de-sac should be adjusted to provide better
grade continuity for lhe future extension of ~lndm111 Drive to the south,
and additional contour data shall be obtalrled to optlmlze the vertlcal
aligrlment of W£ndmill Drlve.
2. The water quail[y/retention pond proposed in the southwest corner of the
development sha].], be increased to provlde a wet volume of 1.2 acre/feet.
Zn addition, an outlet restricting flows shall be 11mlted to 4.5 cfs at the
hlgh water level.
3. The applicant shall deslgn and construct temporary holdlng ponds for storm
runoff on Lot 1, Block 1 and Lots 4 and 5, Block 3 to malntaln the pre-
developed runoff conditions. In addition, the applicant shall pay into the
City's Surface Water Management Program for future downstream water quality
improvements. The specific amount wlll be determined by the Clty's storm
water corlsultant.
4. The applicant shall pay the appropriate storm water trunk fee to be
determined by the City's storm w~ter management consultant to contribute
towards the future extension of storm sewer downstreanl.
5. All street and utility improvements shall be constructed in accordance with
the City's 1993 edltlon of Standard Specifications and Detall Plates.
Street const'ructlon shall also include a drain tile system behind the curb
to accommodate househo].d ~ump pump dJ. scharge.
6. The applical~t shall submit storm drainage and ponding calculations
verifying the plpe slzlng and pond volumes. The storm sewer shall be
deslgrled and cor, structed to handle 10 year storm events. Retention ponds
shall be constructed to NURP standards as well. as malntain the surface
water discharge rate from the subdivision at p'redeveloped runoff conditions
for a 100 year, 24 hour storm eve~lt. Drainage plans shall be consistent
wlth tile City of Chanhassen's Best Management Practlce Handbook.
The applicant shall apply for and obtain all necessary permlts from the
regulatory agencies such as the HPCA, Health Oepa'rtment, Watershed
6O
City Council Heeting - March 8, 1993
District, DNR and Carver County Highway Department.
Prior to the City signing the final plat, the applicant shall enter into a
development contract wlth the Clty and provlde the necessary financial
security to guarantee construction of the public improvements and
compliance of the conditions of approval. The development contract wlll be
subject to City Council approval.
9. The applicant shall provide at a minimum a right turn lane along County
Road 117 and any other improvements required by the Carver County Highway
Department.
10. Both temporary cul-de-sacs that are proposed for future extension shall be
provided with a turnaround that meets city standards with a barricade and
slgnage stating that it is a temporary cul-de-sac and this road will be
extended in the future.
11. The preliminary plat approval shall be subject to the City Council ordering
the public improvement project No. 92-5 for the trunk sanitary sewer and
water improvements through the development.
12. The applicant shall dedicate the necessary drainage and utility easement
for the extension of the trunk sanitary sewer and posslble storm sewer over
Lot 1, 8lock 1.
13. Lot grades throughout the development shall not exceed 3:1 slopes.
14. The applicant shall dedicate temporary street easements for those areas of
the temporary cul-de-sacs outslde the dedicated right-of-way.
15. Indicate lowest floor elevations and garage floor elevations for each house
pad on the grading plan.
16. Submit details on corrected pads including compaction tests, limits of the
pad, and elevations of excavations to the Inspections 01vision. A general
solls report for the development should also be submitted to the
Inspections Oivision.
17. A ten foot clear space must be maintained around fire hydrants, i.e. street
lamps, trees, shrubs, NSP and Northwestern Bell, cable boxes, pursuant to
clty ordinance.
18. No housing construction beyond Lots 12, 13, 16, and 17 may start until fire
apparatus access roads are provided. These access roads shall be designed
to the clty of Chanhassen Engineering standards, and meet the approval of
the Chanhassen Fire Department pursuant to Uniform Fire Code 1988 Edition,
Sectlon 10.207(f).
19. The street named "76th Street West" is unacceptable and must be renamed.
The reason being that the city already has a 76th Street and 76 does not
11ne up with the city's grid map system.
20. The applicant shall submit an amended landscaping plan which provides
61
City Council Meeting -- March 8, 1993
landscape species recomnlended by staff. A landscaped soil berm shall also
be included subjec[ ~.o staff reuiew.
21J Heet conditions of 'the Park and Recreation Commission.
22. Drainage easements must be granted for the pond located in the southwest
corner and other temporary pondlng areas as necessary.
All voted in favor and the mot£on carried unanimously.
REVIEW PROPOSED HIGHWAY 41 REALIGNMENT IN CHASKA AND RELATED ISSUES.
Public Present:
Name Address
Ron Erickson MnDo[
Harold Hesse
Paul Krauss: Hr-. Mayor, I don't know who is in the audience that's present for
th£s one tonight, b}e do have a representative of HnDot here. Chaska was
supposed to send ~ts a representative but z don't see one. You wlll recall that
t l~is was an issue that was raised by, I t hlnk it was Bill Heyer at a Visitor
Presentation. Fie became aware of the fact that Chaska was proposing to
officially map and reserve some right-of-way for future realignment of Hlghway
41. We were not originally lnformed of that. We became aware of it at a late
hour and found out about it in advance of the Clty Council but you asked us to
return to you wlth information. Basically f. he proposal ls in the Hesse Farms
area_ Generally, here is the Highway 212 alignment that goes on into Chaska.
The proposal ls to route 41 down here and across the river, whlch ls shown ina
11ttle blt more detail. If you look, key on these lots right over here. Thls
ls that area in somewhat more detall wlth the Hesse Farm lots belng right over
here. The Char~has:sen/Chaska city line is right there. This is the Highway
alignment that's been aligned for two lanes. This however, an interchange where
this would be a highway to highway interchange. Northbound TH 41 to eastbound
212. The other one over there. ~e found out that '[here was in fact a lot of
information on this routing from time to tlme. I was just lnformed tonight too
that there was apparently some environmental uorkup that was done on thls in the
very early 70's which is really, must have been one of the first EIS's because
the law was only approved I t hlnk when Nlxon was President. But basically
you've got a highway that has been talked about conceptually for quite a perlod
of tlme but there's a difference between conceptually talklng about a highway
and it's ultimate realization. We did find that Chaska really did make a, I
mean thls has been on Chaska's docket for some tlme and ue haven't necessarily
been a party ~oi[ but this is not Sonlething that Chaska just came up with.
There was even some documentation that the Metro Council looked at the 10 top
river crossings in ~.he Twln Cities region, I think it was in 1989 and labeled
this as number 7. ~ith a star. I found that very surprising. My u~derstanding
ls, because I don't have the whole report. ~ excerpted some of it in here.
That of the 7, or the 6 on lop of lt, either they're under construction right
now o)' in serious planning stages and I think they've built number 8. So that
would lmp].y the Metro Councll thought thls had some importance. We looked lnto
ii. in great detail and we have some sensitivity ~o I guess not wanting to rock
62
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
the boat extensively where Chaska is concerned, but this is one that really has
us worried. We do not see in any klnd of conceiveable time horizon, the need
for this road. We understand that Chaska wants to get the trucks off their main
street, and that's a reasonable thing to do. But this is a phenomenally
expensive way to do lt. I also have a difficult tlme seelng that lt's warranted
given that it took 15 or 20 years to get the Bloomington Ferry Brldge done, and
that was certainly much more in demand and the Shakopee Brldge ls being upgraded
at this time too. The concept is one of doing a bluff to bluff bridge and the
only thlng I can thlnk that parallels this ls the Mendota Brldge, whlch is
obviously extraordinarily expensive. It passes through an area that we now know
in pretty significant detail ls one of the most prlstine wetland complexes in
the southwest suburban area, or anywhere in the Twin Cities~ And we have a
difficult tlme seeing how lt's warranted. Not again, nobody's actually
proposing to do the highway. It's not on the MnOot 20 year plan. MnOot is here
tonlght and can comment on lt. Don't look to shoot the messenger, if I could
ask you that. MnOot wasn't pushing this forward but they have been working with
Chaska at Chaska's request and thls is something that they've been talklng about
for apparently a couple decades and may talk about for another couple decades
before any klnd of need surfaces. Chaska apologizes for not directly contacting
us, or the residents. They did try and take some of what they perceived our
concerns to be lnto account. One of the thlngs that they dld ls thls dashed
line here is the original 11ne that was sketched up by MnOot...The city 11ne is
rlght here. So essentially that alignment booted the hlghway directly lnto
Chanhassen, at least one of the northbound lane and pretty severely impacted
some lots in Hesse Farms. What Chaska asked MnOot to do, and MnOot dld do ls
they moved the alignment further to the west so it's entirely located within
Chaska. Now Chaska has a development proposal in this area rlght in here and
what they wanted to do ls reserve the right-of-way so that it doesn't get
developed, and agaln Chaska thought in thelr vlew of the world that they were
doing us a favor and the people in Hesse Farms a favor because they possibly see
thls hlghway as inevitable. And if it ls inevitable and MnOot wants to build
this thing in 10 years. It's a lot easier to blast it through Hesse Farms and
take out homes, in their view anyway, than it would be to... But Chaska dld
make a good faith effort to have it moved. There is still one area that impacts
Chanhassen directly and that is this ramp design over here cuts through thls Lot
10 in coming up there. MnOot did tell us that they would start a little blt
later and come that way to avoid dlrectly impacting those lots. $o that lsa
possibility. You're not being asked to do anything. I mean there's nothing on
the agenda. We dld have some residents that asked that this be clarified.
Chaska has applied to the Metro Council for RALF funds. The Metro Coun¢11, I
asked the Metro Counc11, did we have a rlght to intervene in thls should we
decide to, and they basically said no. But this raised some policy questions
for them and they were going to have a meetlng and I haven't heard the outcome
of that meeting. They view this, I mean there was some talk at the Metro
Counc11 staff level that if thls project ls really over a 20 year tlme horlzon,
there's a lot of other highway projects that are a lot closer and probably could
warrant the use thelr funds. But that was really golng to be thelr decision to
make.
Mayor Chmiel: Is this through Ken?
Paul Krauss: I'm not sure about that Mayor. I know Tab was responsible for
that river crossing, or at least that was revlewed by them so it wouldn't
City Council Meeting--Harch 8, ].993
surprise me. But this is, it's been so hypothetical that, Z mean I remembered
that Z saw a concept that klnd of drew a big dashed line on a map when Z was
working with the County Engineer in the Eastern Carver County traffic study and
Z even remember commenting that isn't this a little bit different. Z mean T.
don't see the need for this and they were adamant that it's been in the hopper
for ~ long period of time and Z just dropped it thinking that it would never
resurface. ~ell, these things have a habit of coming back to bite you and this
one showed up. However, Z think it might be useful to do a couple things. This
road could go away for another 20 years and, or ~0 years or whatever, and
uhoever's sitting in these chairs at that point in time, is not going to have
any kind of a paper trail that this was ever considered. Or any kind of a
status report on what the City's position was. ~ think it might be prudent for
you to consider adopting some sort of a resolution stating that you have some
concerns with this proposa~ and those concerns can be conveyed to MnDot and the
Metro Council. The second thin9 is, in light of the design that MnOot sketched
up, should this ever red]_ly happen, MnDot's J. ndicatod that they coutd skew that
access ramp over. We think it might be prudent to ask them to do that even
though you're objecting to them doing tile highway in the first place. The whole
thing's ,a little squishy but Z've talked to at least one of the property owners
down there and he seemed to understand that we're really not il~ a position to
put a road block up against a project that's not being proposed by anybody. But
~ think th,~t that would be a legitimate course of action to take ~t this point
in time.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you Paul. Does MnDot want to say anything at this
particular time? I know we said we'd have you on about 9:00 but I was talking
about tomorrow morning.
Ron Erickson: I'm Ron Erickson, Predesign Engineer in the metro division. My
office is in Golden Valley and I think Paul has quite well explained the
project. MnOot does recognize that this is a long ways off. It's not in our 20
year plan. I guess we would support the opportunity to protect the right--of-way
because of the Met Council plans and though the river crossing plans did show
the proposal in that area, and if you look at the river crossings, it's a rather
limited area. The studies go back quite a ways in here and I don't want to take
a lot of time because it's late but basically there was a study in about 1970.
It included 169 and 212. Some alternatives were picked for 41 and at that point
Chanhassen did concur with it at one of our public hearings that we had for it.
This is 20 years away. We feel that there is a risk. Obviously Chaska is very
interested in protecting that. They i~ave threat of development now so they
would like to do that protection and I guess we support that. But we can't back
it financially a~d if it's 20 years, I would say it's not going to be 10 years
for sure. I know it's not going to be 10 years. It will be more like 20 years
before we're looking at that roadway but some of the difficult problems that you
had here today was because of landowners already building houses in those area
and this is, if we can plan to reduce the amount of development, then it would
be a great asset Lo us to build a road. I realize that's a very difficult one
with the river crossing. It is very difficult.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you.
Councilnlan Wing: It sounds like if tl~ey stay out of our city we don't have a
problem right?
64
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Mayor Chmiel: I believe we might have just one question.
Ron Erickson: ...It's my understanding the RALF funds are to be able to use
under that concept...I don't know what the Met Council's golng to declde in thls
situation because I know that they've got mixed feelings about spending them on
this corridor. I don't know what they've decided...
Paul Krauss: Well if I could, the RALF funds are appropriated by the State
legislature and dispersed direction to the Metro Council, they don't go through
MnOot so it's not as though MnOot is advocating or not advocating the use of the
RALF funds. It's really going to be a Metro Councll decision.
Mayor Chmiel: Thanks. I would look hopefully to make a recommendation for us
as we have in front of us requesting MnOot redraft their maps to take the
proposed access ramp out of the area not contained in the Highway 212 official
map. Thus if thls lssue really comes and resurfaces in the future, at least
there will be some common understanding regarding that particular route.
Councilman Senn: I'll move staff's recommendation.
Councilman Wing: For both?
Councilman Senn: Yes.
Councilman Wing: Both recommendations. In ail cases, stay out of Chanhassen,
is that implied?
Paul Krauss: Well, actually I don't think it's, the concerns that I have are to
the bluff line and to the wetland environment and to the river valley and that's
appropo of wherever they.
Councilman Senn: As I understood it, the opposition is (a), to the project.
And (b), if the project does proceed even over our opposition, then that the
intersection realignment occur to mlnlmlze lt's effects so that's in effect the
motion I was making.
Councilman Wing: I second Mark's motion.
Harold Hesse: Yeah, I'm Harold Hesse and you can understand, I would be opposed
to it because lt's adjacent to the lots and it wlll be detrimental to them.
Even though it isn't, if it would maybe be hitting them, it's better than just
bypassing them and recelve the damage from the road noise. So I guess I'd just
say I would like to see it moved a bit farther away... So I just wanted to go on
record that I am opposed and I would like to recelve any support I can from the
Chanhassen Counc11.
Mayor Chmiel: I think we've already given you that support in recommending the
two different positions.
Harold Hesse: Yeah, I understand and I'just wanted to go on record as
requesting it. And I am sure you received the letter from my attorney that I am
opposlng lt. So I would 11ke to see it just go away and have been a nightmare
and not see it go out there.
65
City Council Heeting -- March 8, 1993
Mayor Chmiel: Would it be a benefit for ~ts to also adopt a resolution portion
with this contained in it?
Paul. Krauss: Yes, that would be ideal. If you will authorize a resolution, I
can put the wherefore's together for your signature.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, let's do tt,at with the recommendations that have been done.
Paul Krauss: By th~ way, before I forget too, we did give you a resolution on
tho previous item on, it escapes me, on the access boulevards. I'm just going
to fill the blanks in on that too.
Mayor Chmiel: That was part of the motion as well. Accepting the
recommendations.
Resolution ~93-20: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Wing seconded that the
Council adopt a resolution asking MnDot to redraft their maps to take the
proposed access ramp out of the area not contained in the Highway 212 official
map. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
AMENDMENT TO CITY CODE AUTHORIZING ANIMAL CONTROL PERSONNEL TO EUTHANIZE ANIMALS
WHEN NECESSARY, FIRST READING.
Scott Hart: I hope this was worth the wait.
Mayor Chmiel: I would so move this. Is there a second?
Councilman Wing: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: If we have additional discussion, we can do it at our next
mee(ing. It's getting late.
Hayor Chmiel moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the first reading of an
amendment to the City Code Section 5-74 authorizing the animal control personnel
to euthanize animals when necessary as presented. All voted 1n favor and the
motion carried unanimously.
AMENDMENT TO CITY CODE REGARDING PEDDLERS, SOLICITORS, AND TRANSIENT MERCHANTS,
FIRST READING.
Scott Hart: I want to thank you for the support on those last two items. I'll
make this brlef. After discussing this issue wlth Councilman Senn and
Councilman Wing earller, ~ thlnk we've really come up wlth a neat idea to avold
having to pick OhO or the other and that's (o combine the two. And I'd like
permission of the Council to bring this back to the next meeting with a combined
ordinance that would protect the people that don't want to be bothered and give
us regulations over Ihs people that are in town soliciting and peddling.
Mayor Chmiel: Can't we just put a sign up saying IlO soliciting?
Scott Hart: Well that's alternative number 2.
Councilwoman Oockendorf: That was my questioll. Can we just say no solicitors?
66
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Councilman Senn: In the city you mean?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: In the city.
Mayor Chmiel: ...the Cub Scouts and the Girl Scouts.
Councilman Wing: Well they're exempt.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, they-are.
Councilman Wing: When my daughter's at home, I don't want anybody knocking on
that door that Scott hasn't personally gotten a permit and checked their
background. There's too many safety issues anymore to have people running
around ringing doorbells so I want the sign on my door to be protected. I also
want anybody that should come to that door, to have been through Scott's office
so I like your idea but I really want the teeth in there too. As long as Scott
feels he can administer it.
Mayor Chmiel: That's the whole crutch of this.
Councilman Senn: I think Scott feels he can and the other cities that have done
this, I mean to be honest with you, stick the regulation in and the permit fee
in there and that eliminates 9/10 of it right there.
Hayor Chmiel: How much in fees do ue acquire?
Scott Hart: Well right now, I don't know what the total is. It's only $10.00
at this point because all people have to do right now is register. So it's just
a matter of filing the papers but I'll have to review it.
Ha/or Chmiel: Do you get 10 of them a year?
Councilman Senn: No, we talked about it being a lot more significant than that
and actually reflect the cost of the new.
Mayor Chmlel: $1,000.007
Counoilman Senn: Scott is going to look at it and come back.
Scott Hart: $1,000.00 did you say Mayor? I'll review it.
Councilman Mason: So we're tabling this for 2 weeks?
Councilman Wlng: I'll move tabling.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to table action on an amendment
to the City Code regarding peddlers, solicitors, and transient merchant~ until
the next City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
City Cou~ciJ. Moetin:j - Hatch O, 1993
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
LEGISLATIUE UPDATE, PLANNING DIRECTOR.
Councilman Wing: And could I, I realize this is out of order, but there is sort
of an emergency situa[ion I would just like to ask your opinion on. You can so
strike but you have normally not done thai. That's why I felt comfortable ir,
asking.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Who's going to do our legislative update? Don? And Paul?
Don Ashworth: Paul.
Paul Krauss: We are spearheading two legislative initiatives on behalf of the
City and like minded commul,ities. The first one I've told you about from time
to time is on the wetlands, State wetlands law. I have been speaking out about
it around the State. Roger and Jo Alan and I participated in the early drafting
of the law. The ].a~ was perverted by the legis.lative process that at about this
time a night on the last day of the session, crams a bunch of bills togetl]er and
calls it a law and it really doesn't accomplish environmental goals or
administrative goals. The current law, while we all agree with the no net loss
concept and have developed our own city ordinances which are held up as the
example to follow, ti'me State law as is currently written is very destructive to
our ability to effectively...no net loss and to manage the community. It really
takes away a lot of local abi].ii'y to control situations. So ue put together a
coalition of cities, watershed districts, and developers which is really taken,
they took notice of it because it's very rarely did all three groups can work
together and we petit.~oned, we.l], we put testimony in to the hearing judge on
rules. There are soBe changes that came out of that. Not as significant as ue
would have liked, and we rea].lF didn't expect the hearing judge to change the
rules substantially. We I~ave now moved onto the next phase, which is the State
legislature. The State legislature is re.-.hearing the rules and possibly may
open the door again. We hope they ~ill on the la~ itself. We'd like to get
some fundamental changes to the law and we've, through the Urban Wetlands
Hanagement Coalition, are basically using t.arkin-Hoffman as a lobbyist to
represent us and to get those changes to occur. I'll keep you updated as to the
pr-ogress, Th.~F~gs move fast in the legislative session I've found. The second
item that we're actively involved with is on the series of bills that have been
submitted by Hyron Or'field. Representative Orfield has very astutely defined
the problems for Hinneapolis and St. Paul. Unfortunately solutions don't deal
as ~ell with those problems and basically I~e has a very well intentioned effort
to burn what he calls the fertile crescent, which is you guys. We are part of
f. he fertile crescent in question in Orfield's vernacular. ~nd you're fair game.
hnd what they're looking to do is basically to stop any further development in
this area. To make it extForbil~ately expensive to develop in this area. lie's
J.n cahoots with the Northern Hayo'r's Conference and outstate folks they're
cutting deals with. The Nortl~ern Hayor's 6onference basically ~ants suburban
development as long as it's in Blaine or Brooklyn Park. Orfield doesn't want
anything anyplace outside of Hinneapolis or St. Paul. But there's a lot of
support in the legislature for those bills~ We've heard that he's pretty ~ell
got the horses to do what he ~ants to do in the House of Representatives. The
Senate is somewhat open to more conjecture. Through our Southwest Community's
Coalition, 3ol~n Boylan represents us. We've asked John to serve ,~s a
68
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
representative of the group for the State legislature, and I just wanted to
update you on that because this is a new role for him. I want to keep you
versed on exactly what he's doing but basically we've developed a number of
policy positions for him to carry forward that say, look. We agree that the
reglon needs to address urban core problems but thls sure lsn't the way to do it
and propose some alternatives. There's been some chinks in his coalition
showlng lately. East Metro appears to be dlvided with St. Paul breaking off
from all the other suburbs out there over some lssues with the farmland
preservation trust I belleve uhlch ls causlng some difficulties out there. So
we'll keep, and we've also heard that Dakota County has hired a lobbyist on this
as well. And also, frankly I thlnk the news of the last couple weeks has really
severely hurt Minneapolis' chances of bringing home the bacon on thls one. It's
klnd of hard to argue that a clty that blows $31 mi111on in a lawsult and has a
school distrlct that seems to be falling apart at the seams, and all of these
are probably unfalr hits to take, but that's the public perception. That lt's
kind of difficult to convince a legislature that want you need to do in those
cases ls twlst suburban arms to give them even more money so they can contlnue
on the same course. We'll keep you posted on both actions but as I say, things
break pretty fast there. If you have any concerns you want me to false, 3ust
let me know and I can pass them onto our lobbyist and we'll keep you posted.
Councilman Senn: Paul, I thought that was kind of being reordered at this
point, especially on Mondale's part to the first tier suburbs.
Paul Krauss: Well, that's one of the things that they've done to split the
region, and I regard it as real unfortunate. They're trying to balkanize the
reglon. The Metro Councll played some really heavy duty games with statistics.
What the Metro Council did and what Orfield uses for his data sources is staff
at the Metro Counc11. They say that the developed area, lt's the developed area
against the suburbs, okay. The developed area is not 3ust Minneapolis and
St. Paul. It lncludes thlngs that you mlght want to think should be in there.
Maybe a Columbla Heights and a New Hope and a Fridley.
Councilman Senn: It's really redevelopment versus development lsn't lt?
Paul Krauss: Well, but it also includes Bloomington and Edina and Golden Valley
and Rosevllle and Orfleld comes out with these statistics that say, school lunch
demands are up through the roof. Unwed mothers are climbing like crazy so he's
paintlng Edlna with the same brush that he's doing Selby/Dale and it really lsa
misuse of statistics. But what that does is it says this region is divided
50/50. That 50~ of the population lives in thls urban for that he's trying to
protect theoretically. 50% doesn't. The reality of the situation, I mean I can
play games with numbers too but by my count I thlnk 3 out of every 4 people in
the Twin Cities don't live in Minneapolis or St. Paul. You know so we are a
region of suburban dwellers and I've been maklng the pltch for severals years at
the Metro Council that instead of trying to fight the trend they ought to
understand what the reglon really ls 11ko and deal wlth those situations.
Councilman Hason: What a refreshing concept.
Paul Krauss: Yeah, but it hasn't gone over very big.
City Council. Meeting --March 8, 199.3
Councilman Wing: I just turned my taxes in today and this is all I need.
goverllmellt .
More
Mayor Chmiel: Don, you don't have anything?
Don 'Ashuorth: No. 3ust to make you aware that we also are working at the
Federal level trylng to reinstate our community development block grant funds.
Mayor Chmiel: Sen[ another letter out today to Rod Grams to support us as well.
Also received a letter from Wellstone saylng he can't do anything for us as far
as legislation is concerned but he's willing to continue his approach through
ttUb to make sure that something happens.
PaLl]. Krauss: Well, ~nd I didn't see that letter but I know that Wellstone's
people, when I contacted hlm. Yeah, Don told me about lt. But Wellstone's
people wh~;n I contacted them after the election in November kind of sald, just
you walt and see. After January we'll be able to have a more receptive hearing
at HUO. Now I don't know that that's the case or not.
Mayor Chmlel: My suggestion is get a hold of Tom Lapplc and see if he's...
Paul Kraussr I could do that.
Hayor Chmiel: Okay. Michael.
Cour, cilman Mason: Ouick things in the Admim~is[ratlve Packet. Number one, I
think kudos for Charles and hls staff for standardizing the engineer's
co~tracts. ~ think that's a real good ldea. I'm glad to see that. I also want
to compliment Paul for catching the NPR thlng and firlng a letter off to Paula
Sc. hroeder~ I did not get the opportunity to hear it but after chatting with
you, Z also thank you for your letter to Peter 01in. Keeplng on top of things
like that. Z think that's an important part of the deal. Speaking of Met
Counc11, and I really, I had to kind of laugh as I was going through the
Administrative Packet and they're writing to Don, City Manager for
Transportation Advisory Board projects they wlll and won't plck. And I do want
to quote wlla( they say here. Due to fundlng constraints the Board decided to
only fund the highest five graded projects. Innovative projects dld not receive
a priority rating. So I guess we don't go for innovation at Met Council. My
own comment. But then it does say later, crlterla considered lncluded
innovative in it's transferability. I admire you continuing to chat amicably
wlth the Metropolitan Counc11. I really do respect that. And one thlng I think
Council needs to get pointed out. We, at our last Council meeting voted to do
this ?:00 shot and then on the work sesslon we declded it probably wasn't
necessary. Oo we then need to make a motion to resclnd the other motion? Or do
we let it s11de?
Mayor Chmiel: We could make a motion.
Councilman Mason: Okay, I'll make a motion to rescind the motion that was made
concof'ning meeting at ?:00 to go over the agenda.
Councilwomarl Dockendorfr Second.
7O
City Council Meeting - March 8, 1993
Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Oockendorf seconded to rescind the motion
to meet at 7:00 prior to City Council meetings. All voted in favor and the
motion carried.
Mayor Chmiel: Richard, quickly.
Councilman Wing: Yes. However, for both Todd and Don, because this is not
funny an/more. The Mayor and myself have not received an abundance of phone
calls but I did go out this weekend and start contacting local people. Ask them
how they're doing and I can assure you from the tip of Lake Minnewashta to the
other end the people are furious. And I mean furious. I mean never been madder
at the city in it's life. The area is unuseable. And what they're basically
saying is that staff may have made mistakes or the engineers, but the buck stops
here. Our liason is the Council. Minnewashta Parkway is for the most part
inpassable. It's unuseable. It's a screw up and it's a bad one and I'm tonight
accusing engineering, wherever it lies of poor judgment. I think they started
the project too late. It got all muddled and now we're leaving with it.
Clothing. Stains on clothing. The roadways. Cars that can't be washed.
Garages that can't be cleaned. The conditions are unreasonable. So I guess
what I'm suggesting here is that we really can't allow this condition to exist
for another 2 months. It's not fair. It's not reasonable, and we created it.
The solution, I'm asking engineering for a solution. I don't care if you have
to come in and pave it. I don't care if they have to come in and regrade it. I
don't care if you have to come in with a trillion dollars worth of stuff, but
I don't think those people can live under the conditions they are for 2 more
months. Don, you've been out there. Every single day is the same. We don't
want to take the fire trucks out because it takes a hour and a half to clean
them. Our drain, we can't wash them because ue plug our drains with the crud
that comes off. It's goo. It's cement. It's not gravel. It's not a passable
road. Enough's enough. Engineering should come up with a solution and deal
with the cost and I think ue have to deal with it. I don't think it's
reasonable to expect that road to continue for another day.
Mayor Chmiel: I think we've learned something from that as well. That if we
have a project to go, that September, the end of September be the cutoff date.
Because of problems that we've encountered two times in a row with October and
because of the snowfall it really has goofed us up. If they would have had a
few more days...because of the timeframe.
Councilman Mason: Richard talks about blaming engineering. I said this last
time and maybe I should ask someone on staff to find the Minutes but we were
told by Mr. Engelhardt that that would not be an issue.
Bill Engelhardt: He's got mud on his face and a black eye.
Councilman Mason: And that I think is something that perhaps needs to be deal
with because I remember asking him point blank. And he said, no. That won't be
a problem.
Councilman Wing: So I don't know what action the Council would choose to take
but I'm asking staff to react to this.
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City Council Meeting --M,~rch 8, .1_993
Don ~shworth: I'ii put the item onto the next agenda. Have Engelhardt present.
Have him, I think there's a couple of issues. Olde is, how did we get to where
we are? Were there alternatives? And what are we doing to make sure it doesn't
happen in the future and then fin,~lly, Councilman Wing's point of what can be
done right now.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Can we do it any sooner than 2 weeks because we're,
yeah. These people have gone on ~ong enough. Ts there anything we can do in
the interim?
Mayor Chmie]'. Yeah, I talked to Charles about that and he's saying that by
April. 15th, which is also tax tlme, that they're going to start putting curb in.
Once they get curbs ln, it wlll only take them a week.
Councilman Wing: I don't be].ieve him.
Mayor Chmiel= If they don't have any real problems as far as weather.
Councilma~ Wing: That's 2 months From now. I c~me in from Waconia last night
and I mlssed my turnof~ on Rolllngs Hills. I got down to Mlnnewashta Parkway
~nd I went all the w~y down to TH 41 znd back aroused. I wouldn't drive on that
damn road come hell or hlgh water.
Mayor' Chmiel: I did the other day again and I had to go get the car washed one
more t 1me.
Councilman Wing: Well enough's enough. We dumped on them and now I think we
ought to fix it. It may cost us some money but we made the mistake and I thlnk
we have to 11ve up to it and I'm asking s[aff to move rapidly and faster than 2
weeks. In my opinion. I'd be willil~g to call a specl~l meetlng to deal with
this. That's how severe I thlnk it ls. I didn't know the anger was there unt11
recently. Where I went out and those people are just besides themselves. But
they've been gentlemenly about lt. But they are really mad at us. They are
really furious at the city of Chanhasse~, and I think they h~ve every rlght to
be. Thank you for listening.
Councilman Sero,n: How about Don, did he have anything under Administrative
Presentations?
Hayor Chmiel: No.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to adjourn the meeting.
All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:40
p.m~
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
72