1992 12 09CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
SPECIAL BUDGET HEETING
DECEHBER 9, 1992
Mayor Chmiel called the meetlng to order at 7:30 p.m. The meettng was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCIL HEHBERS PRESENT: Hayor Chmiel, Councilwoman Dimler, Councilman Workman
and Councilman Hason
COUNCIL HEHBERS ABSENT: Councilman Wlng
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Todd Gerhardt, Todd Hoffman, Jean Heuwissen, and
Tom Chaffee
1993 BUDGET ~ARING:
Publ[c Present:
Namlle A ress
Albert Dorweiler
Marie Schroeder
Bruce Birkeland
Jim Pehringer
Jim Emmet
Kelby Bailey
Herb Kask
Tom Devine
Frank Kurvers
1565 Bluff Creek Drive
6430 Pleasant View Lane
1140 Willow Creek Street
1010 Lake Susan Hill Orlve
Yosemite
Pleasant View Way
115 Pleasant View Road
7640 South Shore Drive
7220 Kurvers Point Road
Mayor Chmiel: Flrst of all I'd 11ke to extend a welcome to each of you for
coming in this evening. This is our Truth in Taxation hearing, which is today,
December 9th, our 1993, ls our tax levy and budget. We w111 have an additional
meeting which will be held at Council, the final public hearing this coming
Monday on December 14th. The Council meeting starts at 7:30. Once again let me
again extend another welcome to you. This is the budgeting process that started
in August of this year. The Clty Councll has met in five work sesslons to
consider budgetary constraints that will be faced in 1993. To establish goals
for the 1993 budget and to 11sten to the department heads discuss the pros and
cons of changes in service levels if funding levels were to decrease. The 1993
budget, as Z mentioned wlth those items previously said, five work sesslons of
City Council. It also Identifies constraints. It establishes goals.. There are
cuts in every department yet posts attention to providing enough fundlng for
needed programs within the city. Those meetings that we had'resulted in a
proposed budget fundlng expenditure of approximately $524,000.O0-higher than
annual revenue. The City Council's ftnal action challenged the staff to meet
the goals as adopted durlng the process and submlt a balanced budget. Our 1993
budget constraints were a 12~ growth yield which is 12~ more in services
recognizing that the 12~ new growth through construction wtll add 12~ demand for
services. Including street maintenance, street 119hts, police patroling and
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
recreation, etc. Two, the State tax shift from the higher valued homes,
recognizing that the State imposed and shift in property tax burden, which
reduces hlgher valued homes, could wlthout proper planning raise taxes on a
lower valued homes. Again recognizing that the new State mandated sales tax on
cltles wlll be addlng a 6.5~ sales tax to all equipment purchases. Vehlcle
costs, paper, and supplies. Thls ls just something that was instituted back to
the cltles by the legislature back in July of thls year. Again recognizing that
the cost of living, although being down, will add 3~ to 4~ to the 1993 costs of
heatlng buildings, 119hting streets, providing fuels for our vehicles. And also
that the efficiencies can be realized for growth which hopefully can offset the
lmpact of the cost of 11vlng and sales tax. Lastly, recogonlzlng cltlzens
concerns for escalating cost of providing government servioes and a basic
disllke of property taxes as a way of paying for those services. Our 1998
budget goals will (1) maintain the service level. By that I mean we're using a
portlon of the 12~ lncrease in new construction values. No more than 3.5~ to
insure that servlces continue at levels comparable to 1992. (2), as it protects
the lower valued homes from State tax shlfts, ue are uslng approximately 7~ of
new values to fund tax decreases provided to higher valued homes. Do not allow
lower valued homes to pay for the cost of the tax shift mandated by the State.
(3), set the operations budget at no more than existed in 1992. (4), us're
going to provlde adequate fundlng. No more than 1~ to 2% for new programs
regarding the Chanhassen Senior Center and the additional police patrolling that
we wlll have. And (5), the last 1rem is to lnsure that no tax increase occurs
as a result of our budgeting process. I'm happy to report that our staff has
met the challenge of the City Councll and I present to you a balance budget
whlch meets all goals within the constraints previously mentioned. As it shows
here my hero, I feel 11ks we hit a home run 3ust 11ks Klrby Puckett does when
he's in a clinch. We've done the same thing.
Councilman Mason: We don't make as much money though.
Mayor Chmiel: Well, just a few dollars less, you're right. Our revenue budget,
our 1992 versus the '93. The general tax levy for '93 is less than the general
tax levy for last year, 1992. Covering our revenue budget for '92 versus '93,
homestead credits is up $7,300.00 over last year. As we contlnue with what we
have on our expenditure budget, this is also with our '92 versus our '93. We
are also able to meet the goals that were established 11mlting the cost
increases for new programs from lX to 2~. One of the other factors that has
become known of course ls now our senior center. Our senlor center, $23,740.00
specifically funding for the Chanhassen Senior Center is included as well as our
additional pollce coverage for an additional $48,000.00. The cost of increasing
the police patrollng. Well this additional $48,000.00 means that we will have
two cars on the street during the crltlcal hours that we need them rather than
having one before. But at all given tlmes in the need that arlses, we within
the city can have 6 patrol cars here wlthln a minute to 2 mlnutes. $o we do
have good backing for what we're receiving. The cost, if I remember correctly,
ls somewhere in the middle of that, ulth that $48,000.00 increase, ls roughly
about $400 and how much? I have it hidden here somewhere. I did write it down.
$438,000.00 for police protection. Now if we were to continue or try to put in
our own police department, we've run a study on that to see what that cost would
be and that cost alone would run the City $1,500,000.00. So we're trying to do
the best we can with the amount of dollars that we have available. I'd like to
cover the expenditure budget whlch ls also for the '92 versus '93. When you add
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
the cost of these new programs to the 2.6~ increase in operating costs, the
expenditure budget for 1993, increase 4.8~ over 1992. The City Council's goal
was set at no more than a 5~ and we're staying right in there. 3ust to cover a
portion of your city regarding your tax dollars. The City in itself has 18.8~.
I believe when this Council first took over, it was at about a 25~ so that has
decreased which is a definite plus. What does it mean? It means that the city
portion of the tax bill is down. On our next item of 10~ to 12~ lower tax rate
for higher valued homes. This will decrease in amounts of up to and for a high
value homes, that total amount. Normally, as I was pounding on many doors and
I'm sure Council has done that as well, we found that people were complaining
because of what taxes were on our higher valued homes. When they said they were
paying $15,000.00 and some $18,000.00, I swallowed very hard. [ knew from what
I was paying it was high, but not that high. And ! think there has been an
inadequancy for sometime. Somewhere it has to start showing some changes. For
our lower valued homes that we will be having, there will be no tax increases
for those lower valued homes. They should be the same as what they were last
year. Or maybe a little less provided you did not have a re-evaluation of your
property in this last year. I'll put a clarifier because that has been done.
And that has been done of course by the County. As ! look at it, we're going to
see that most Chanhassen residents will experience lower taxes in '93 and I also
put that clarifier, most. Not all. With that, I would like to now turn this
over to Don and have him go through the balance of the process of the rest of
our budgeting and as to some of the reasons why and so forth. $o with that I'd
like to turn this over to our City flanager, Don Ashworth. Don.
Don Ashworth: Thank you Mayor. Even with an astute budget and less taxes for
most residents, some taxpayers may see an increase over last year taxes. The
question becomes why. The answer is really two fold. One, changes in'property
values or two, tax levies by each of the jurisdictions. Property values are
determined on the basls of square footage of the home, the type of construction,
location and condition. Another factor would be new construction. If you've
added a deck. A new addition, the value of your property reflects those
changes. The third factor is the tax levtes themselves. Property taxes paid
for services from several levels of government. School, County, City and other
regional services. As noted by the Mayor,-the City of Chanhassen takes
approximately 19~ of the tax b111. For those owners that dld hlt lnto an area
where their property was re-evalued, maybe I can just share this with the
Counc11. Most of the areas were on the east side of-Lotus Lake, north slde of
Lotus Lake, and north part of the community. As we went through the Board of
Equalization meetlng from this past sprlng, we'had seen that areas such as
Chestnut Ridge had not been valued, re-evalued for 4 to 5 year pertod of time.
They were slttlng with sales ratio comparing what houses in that neighborhood
were selling in comparison to what the Assessor had on the books at a level of
about 81~. Fox Hollow, 4 to 5 years. 82~. Lotus Lake Estates, 7 to 8 years.
72~. Colonial Grove really had no comparable sales but it had been 7 to 8 years
since it had been brought up to date. The Heights, 83~. Near Mountain, 4
years. 81~. Pleasant Acres, 3 to 4 years, 79.g~. For property owners 1tying
in those areas, and seelng an increase in thelr taxes as a result of
re-evaluation of their property, I feel for them because my own property ran
1nfo that category from two years ago. The fact though is when we allow values
to stay at a depressed level for a 7 to 8 year period of time, those
neighborhoods really are not paying-their falr share of the overall property
taxes. Again, I'm sure we'll have some who wtll be speaking tn terms of
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
whatever percent increase that they had in their property. Most of those, my
guess will be properties that were under valued and probably have been under
valued for a number of years. Again, the third factor in what taxes you will
pay are the tax levies themselves. When the Mayor was reviewing the tax levies
as they dealt with the city, those tax levies will be the same whether you're in
School District ~112, Chaska or if you're in School District ~276, which is
Minnetonka District. However, those people in the Zinnetonka District ¢276,
have seen an approximate 18~ increase in their taxes as it results from the tax
levy created by the School District. Those owners who are here protesting the
level of those increases, we should be encouraging them to attend the Minnetonka
School District hearings and make those protests known. But the fact remains
that the City of Chanhassen's tax rate will decrease from 1992 to 1993. Back
again to the distribution of the tax dollar, again as noted by the Mayor. The
City takes approximately 19% of that tax dollar. Finally, just to highlight the
overall budgetary picture. We believe that ue have met the goals set by the
city Council. We've set a property tax level for 1993 which is less than the
property tax level for general operations that was set in 1992. The budget as
it deals with expenditures, we have maintained the Council's goal of no more
than 2~ to 3N increase in the operational budget from 1992 to 1993 for existing
operations. As noted by the Mayor, Council did ask to see the senior center
properly funded to insure that we would have additional police coverage. In
total those expenses plus existing produce a 4.8~ increase in expenditures for
operations from 1992. Again, the goal set by the Council. Finally, and maybe a
little additional background is necessary. The State did change how taxes would
be calculated on higher valued properties. There is no free lunch. When taxes
are taken away from one group of owners, it is very possible to see those go
back onto another group. The City Council was very direct in stating that
whether it be a lowered value home or higher, that they did not want to see a
tax increase as a result of the city's budgetary process. What that forced us
into doing was taking the cost to subsidize those higher valued homes and to
take that out of the growth that ue would have ordinarily seen. The growth that
normally would have paid for the 12N new blocks of streets. The 12~ new lines
of sewer and water. The 12% additional cost for police officers. Again those
costs do include our senior center, our additional police coverage and at this
time Mr. Mayor I would recommend that ue open the hearing for public comments.
Mayor Chmiel: Very good, thank you. But prior to doing that, I think one of
the other things that we did at last night's, Tuesday night's meeting.
Don Ashuorth: I think it was Monday wasn't it?
Mayor Chmiel: Monday night? We've had so many meetings going, I'm not sure.
We asked for an additional reduction of $5,000.00 more from the budget whlch I'm
assured that we can also get. So ulth that I would 11ke to have those of you
who would like to get up and provide your comments to the Councll at this
particular tlme. I'd just like you to state your name and your address and your
concern. So this is your opportunity to come forward and indicate your
concerns. Don't be shy. Talk to us just 11ke you would anywhere else. But not
in the same way. We're on the air.
Albert Oorueller: I'm Albert Dorweiler at 1565 Bluff Creek Drive. I've got a
concern and a question. Bluff Creek lsa Chanhassen street right?
City Council Meeting - December
Mayor Chmiel: That's correct.
Albert Dorueiler: I feel that because of the belly dump trucks that's going by
there every 3 minutes, I think that that decreases my property. Saturday
morning about 7:30 they pound that road. One right after another. Hauling dirt
from Chanhassen here and to Moon Valley and hauling sand back. Hauling loads
both ways. They're beating that road and I don't see in the near future why I
should have to pay for improvements on Bluff Creek when TH lO1 is open. Why
aren't them trucks using that. Them trucks are way over loaded. They're not
tarped. They're over the sides. There's a danger factor there. I called the
Sheriff's Department and they didn't seem to do much about it. I know they were
speeding. I was doing 30 mph and they were pulling away from me. I don't think
that if this continues, I don't see why I should have to pay.that much property
tax. Isn't that a State Highway? Because TH lO1 is empty. I think they should
be using TH lO1.
Don Ashuorth: I, as many of the Council members may have also received, a
similar complaint.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, did I receive a call from you as well?
Albert Oorueiler: No you haven't.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, because I have received several calls from several people
on your road and I know that last Friday we did have the Sheriff's Department
out there with their weight, checking the weights of those trucks. Making sure
that they were being maintained with that weight level. And from my
understanding in talking with some of the officers that were there, that has
been met. They were directly at the right weight level of all the checks that
they had done. My understanding was that they did it for better than 2 hours.
At that particular day.
Albert Dorweiler: When was that?
Mayor Chmiel: Last Friday.
Albert Dorueiler: Last Friday? That was after Thanksgiving there.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. And they were still hauling though.
Albert Dorweiler: I mean why aren't they using TH 1017
Don Ashuorth: I don't think with those big belly dumps you'd really want them
on TH 101. We have been trying to work with the contractor to get them to come
up County Road [ by the Lion's Tap. Up the road to 1 and then back over that
way. We've not been real successful. They assure me at this point in time that
all hauling will be completed prior to this weekend. And I'm taking him for
that.
Albert Dorweiler: I just wonder on occasion, on improvements and stuff like
that. I mean them belly dumps are wrecking the road. The average citizen who
lives along that road, I mean they get more use out of the road than what we get
out of it, you know.
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
Don Ashuorth: In the construction of the road, it was built to State Aid
standards for truck traffic. We don't really like to see the level of trucks
that have occurred on that roadway and I think the Council is aware that Target
had wanted to fast track their project. In the process of doing that, they
employ contractors to let's get this thing graded this Fall. Get it done, ready
for foundation. An offshoot from that, from the fast track process, is exactly
what Mr. Dorueiler is referring to. And that is that it is causing grief for
other property owners who have to see those trucks literally in front of their
property. And I did receive calls again from the Inn, Mr. Waritz, Mrs. Waritz,
and I can't think of the other owner. I agree. Not a good situation.
Albert Dorueiler: It's not really service. I mean that's not really service.
I mean as far as I'm concerned, as far as the clty of Chanhassen, it's not that.
You sald you want to be a service to the community I mean. You know, you're not
really being a service by this happening. Why can't they put up a stop sign by
Hesse Farm? That'd discourage them. Slow them trucks down. Anytlme they get a
stop, that would discourage them. If you put up a stop sign by Hesse Farm Road
there, I thlnk that would eliminate them.
Don Ashuorth: Well again, the trucks will be done tomorrow or Friday at the
latest. I don't know if Hempel was successful in gettlng any percent of those
trucks to go over through the Eden Prairie route or not. I really don't think,
given the length and the slze of those trucks, that you'd want them on TH 101.
I think that they'd be a definite hazard there. And again, that truck trafflc
should cease tomorrow or Friday at the latest.
Albert Dorueller: Yeah, but that's been happening all summer long though I
mean. Any development that goes on, they use Bluff Creek. Z mean you know to
say this is going to end for this winter, you know next spring.
Mayor Chmiel: But what happens next year?
Albert Dorweiler: What happens next year. I think you alleviate the problem if
you just put up a stop slgn or a speed bump or whatever to keep them trucks off
of there.
Mayor Chmiel: We can't put speed bumps because that costs the City money.
Especially is someone wrecks their car or whatever they're driving. So that
makes us 11able. So speed bumps are something that's out. I'm not sure from a
safety aspect whether a stop sign is warranted but what we could do is bring
that before the Publlc Safety Commission and review that to see if there lsa
need for that situation of putting a stop sign there.
Albert Dorueiler: See I've got a blind hill too you know and trucks going both
ways like that, you talk about safety of TH 101 you know, I'm in the same
situation.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. Legally I don't think, in fact I know, legally there's no
way of telling them that they can't go on that road. And that's part of the way
that we sort of get our hands tled. But there may be something ue can do. I'm
not sure but maybe we can look at.
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
Albert Dorweiler: Well you said that Chanhassen don't have money for speed
bumps you know.
Mayor Chmiei: No, I didn't say.
Albert Dorweiier: You know what I'm saying? Okay now, improvements now. Now
the road is wrecked. Now where's that money coming from? You know. You know.
I mean if you can keep them trucks somewhat off the road, who gains? The
homeowners and the city.
Don Ashworth: I will pick up on your suggestion Mr. Mayor, that this item be
put onto a Public Safety agenda and I'll have Scott Hart contact Mr. Oorweiler
to invite him to that meeting to discuss the possibility of a stop sign. I
agree with your comments that under State Aid standards, you're not gqing to be
permitted to put in a speed bump.
Albert Oorweiler: Well thank you.
Marie Schroeder: I guess, well I'm Marie Schroeder from Pleasant View Lane and
I guess we belong in the category of the older home. We moved down there in
1950 and you said that it would go up no more than 18~, or did I misunderstand
you?
Don Ashworth: No, and in fact your neighborhood is one of those that I
identified. It's been a number of years since the properties in that area had
been re-evalued. That that area was re-evalued during this past year. That in
that process, if your value moved from $60,000.00 to $80,000.00 or $70,000.00 to
$90,000.00 or $100,000.00 to $120,000.00, you're going to see a much larger than
18~.
Marie Schroeder: Well our's...27~. That's an awful lot.
Don Ashworth: That doesn't surprise me because you're getting a double h£t.
One is a 20~ increase as a part of that re-evaluing your property. The second,
as a result of the School District. It's too bad that both of those things had
to occur at one point in tlme, but they did and I don'.t know how much we had to
say about either or those two things happening at the same point in time.
Marie Schroeder: We don't even have a street light. We pay for our own
security light down there. I think we should get something out of it.
Don Ashworth: I would strongly suggest, and I don't know if you recall getting
a notice of what was called a Board of Equal£zatton meeting that occurred in
March-April.
Marie Schroeder: I don't recall that.
Don Ashworth: It was during that timeframe. You should have received a notice
advising you as to when to come in and discuss the proposed value that they were
puttlng onto your property. Because it was the va.lue that they set this past
spring which drives, you might say, the amount of property taxes that you're
going to end up paying in 1993. And agaln, you are being hit with two portions.
One area that may be of benefit to you is that the circuit breaker laws are
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
still in effect and for people who had a generalized increase, as you did, your
taxes cannot increase by more than 10~ and that is not.
Marie $chroeder: How often? You mean for each year or what?
Mayor Chmiel: Each year.
Don Ashuorth: So for 1993, if you would take a look at what you paid in 1992
versus 1993, you cannot be paying more than 10, and it's slightly more than that
with the way they do the calculations. Those forms are available at the
Chanhassen Library. And if you use that for 1993, in getting a rebate. Of
everything over 10%, then come back in before this group in that February-March
timeframe of '93 so that we can relook at the value of your property and
determine whether it is too high.
Marie Schroeder: Okay.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Bruce Birkeland: My name is Bruce Birkeland. I live over on Willow Creek.
I've had a 30~ increase in my taxes. I've got a 35 year old home. I've been
out of work for about a year. Is there anyway to get any recourse or have this,
ls there anyway for me to go back and have thts run backwards? This is
$11,000.00 over what it was supposed to be worth and hell, lt's getting
impossible to pay the damn taxes.
Mayor Chmiel: Do you have an estimate or valuation done on your property by a
realtor or an appraiser I should say?
Bruce Birkeland: Well I haven't had in 3 or 4 years since I bought the house.
Mayor Chmiel: That sometimes is, we've had that happen where the price of a
home was adjusted and it was too hlgh. They had gone out to refinance their
home so they had to have an appraiser revlew their home and come in with a price
on lt. And it was lower than what that was, what the Assessor. The County
Assessor automatically did drop those back down upon Council's request.
Bruce Birkeland: I'd have to have it resurveyed in other words and then go back
to the Assessor?
Mayor Chmiel: Well that's one of the things that can happen. Also have an
opportunity in February-March, when we have our.
Don Ashuorth: For each of those people who have spoken, thinking that their
value was too high. That it should not have been changed from this past spring.
I did talk wlth the County Assessor's offlce and two things. One, ls they are
not going to allow future, they're not golng to allow this 7 or 8 year timeframe
before people are brought up to date. They pledged that they will attempt to
keep those values closer to where they should be on a timely basis. So an
individual doesn't see a 20~, 30~, 40~ lncrease all at one polnt in time.
Bruce Birkeland: I don't think the people in my neighborhood have been able to
sell their darn homes lately elther. I'm really klnd of getting worrled about
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
it frankly.
Mayor Chmiel: z can understand that.
Bruce Birkeland: My neighbor's tried to sell his for months and nothing.
Don Ashworth: The Assessor suggested that [ take down those names of those
people who again feel that thetr values were too high and they'll come out, I
don't want to say immediately but within the next month and look at the value of
your property. Look at some of your neighboring property. They can provide you
with what I'll call a sales ratio statistics so they can tell you how many
houses in your neighborhood sold. What they sold for and what that sales price
was in comparison to what the Assessor had on the books. So in other words, the
number of houses that sold for $80,000.00 versus the number on the books for
$80,000.00.
Bruce Birkeland: Okay, do I get the Assessor's name from you or do I leave my
name?
Don Ashworth= I've taken down your name. Maybe it would help, do you have a
phone number?
Bruce Birkeland: 474-6507. It's spelled Birkeland.
Don Ashworth: And the name is Orlin Schafer. He ts the County Assessor. There
are two field assessors that work Chanhassen. Ann.
Mayor Chmiel: I was trying to think of her name.
Don Ashworth: And Steve Just. And Ann, I think it's Rest. We'll have someone
get a hold of you.
Bruce Birkeland: Okay, appreciate it. Thank you.
Don Ashworth: Could I have your telephone number as well?
Marie Schroeder: 474-8911.
Don Ashworth: And then Albert.
Albert Dorweiler: 445-3321.
Don Ashworth: Thank you.
Jim Pehringer: Hi. My name ts Jim Pehringer. I'm at 1010 Lake Susan Hills
Drive and I attended the meeting last year and voiced an opinion of keeping the
tax increases to a minlmum and I want to commend you for not only doing that but
also taking our comments to heart and dotng the best that you could to reduce
that. So I want to make sure that it's positive comments come your way in light
of some of the other comments of personal situations where people experienced an
increase. That's unfortunate. What ! wanted to explore was, tn the handout you
indicated that leading these two new expenses, the proposed increase for police
coverage and funding the Senior Center. Unfortunately I came tn a few minutes
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
late and I might have missed this in your presentation but is this issue of
adding additional police coverage, is this still in the proposal?
Don Ashworth: Early in the process the Council identified that we have not
adjusted the number of hours of patrol for quite a period of time. It is an
area that the Sherlff made a presentation before the Council discussing our
patrol level. That we're really falling behind in that area. There are a
number of tlmes where we're not able to respond to a call because the offlcer,
11ke a typical DWI will take an officer off the street for 3 hours. If you have
any type of a call during that 3 hour perlod of time, you're not golng to make
lt. If you have somebody in your backyard, they'll pull a squad out of Waconla
to check that. But if lt's an other type of minor incident, it just won't be
responded to for a period of tlme. It's still a proposal. The Council does
have the ablllty to say no. We do not want that additional squad in our
community. But I think that the Sherlff made a very positive statement for why
that was necessary and I heard the Councll say, yes. If there's any way to keep
that expense in the lgg3 budget, do it.
Mayor Chmiel: We're looking at our budget increasing with the Sheriff's patrol
of about $48,000.00. That is putting another car on the streets to do
patrolling. Maklng sure we're deterring problems that could increase or could
happen. Last year our total budget for the Sheriff's Oepartment was
$390,000.00. With the $48,000.00 of course we're up to $438,000.00 this year.
At the same time we have those two cars, we also have the abllity of having a
floater plus another car plus two other cars to come ln. So we can have 6 cars
here within a mlnute to 2 minutes. If we were to go to our own police
department, and I've done a study on thls, the total study cost to put a polloe
department in operations within the city is $1,500,000.00. So I know that we're
savlng money by doing this but yet we're st111 getttng good protection. And we
just instituted one of our CSO's, which is something brand new. Of course CSO's
we had. They take care of the dog problems, ordinance problems and thlngs of
that nature. To keep those officers free and their cost is very minlmal in
comparison to a police officer. So I guess the point I'm trying to make ls that
our CSO, there's been a new arrangement made between the Sheriff's Department
and the city in having hlm work for the Sheriff's Department and belng allowed
to do what the Sheriff Oepartments can do. Our CSO's can issue tlckets. Can't
do other certaln thlngs. But under thls new, and I thlnk that we really have to
glve the Sheriff a very big plus, to say yes, he can do thls and we will have
hlm under our jurisdiction. Even though he wlll be worklng for the Clty and
still not being paid as much as what regular officers are. So we're really
trying to do these klnds of thlngs that we need, and st111 hold down those
dollars.
Jim Pehringer: Well I would like to strongly encourage you to consider adding
additional police protection. Whatever effect that may have, I thlnk it's very
important to malntaln the securlty in thls community and the sort of values that
people are seeklng when they move here.
Mayor Chmlel: Right. We're still providing all the servlces that we can
without maklng any real cutbacks plus the fact of not increasing tax on your
home unless the re-evaluation has ralsed.
10
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
Don Ashworth: Well I should, if I may Mr. Mayor. We did see the 12~ increase
in new construction values, and it does relate to the i2X new streets, sewer
lines, and what not. But also a portion of that represents tnfiliing and so
on Kerber Boulevard where we were plowing snow this past year, putting lO
additional houses along that street really did not increase our cost. It's
through certain efficiencies such as that that we were able to pick up the cost
associated with the additional sales tax. Pick up the cost of, weii just
general cost of living. And not have to force those back onto you or [ as
property tax payers so I really am happy with this budget.
Jim Pehringer: Okay, thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Jim Emmet: My name is Jim Emmet. I live on Yosemite and I'd like to preface my
remarks by saying that from what I can gather, you're dolng a good job of
containing costs and running an efficient city. My problem is that the
evaluation, which I know you have nothtng to do with, went up 15.8~ and my city
of Chanhassen taxes went up 24~. I'm sure it has something to do with this game
that the legislature is playing and I guess they're going to continue to play
it. But for whatever it's worth, and I understand we have a new legislator with
us, whatever pressure you as a municipality can put on, I think that we need a
truth in taxation law. I think we need to know that if we're going to get an
increase in valuation, we'll know what our taxes are going to be. This is
ridiculous. My total tax increase is 39~ and part of it, the biggest part of it
is the Minnetonka School District. I was at a similar meeting last night at
Carver County and it's a definitely a forward pass on the part of ali these
communities to the State legislature, so. I would think that maybe you would
have an ear there because this is razzie dazzle. There's no way a citizen is
going to know what's going on from year to year and has a lOX increase or better
than 1DX increase last year. The circuit breaker works for-people on lower
income but the tax goes on. I mean it works for one year so that's really sauve
that lasts only a little while. So Z think it has to be said that we don't have
a good system and let's simplify it so that people know what they're doing. The
fact that this comes out after elections is somewhat irritating. I think that
can be addressed at the legislature as well. Thank you very much.'
Councilman Mason: Those are good points. It would'be nice to see the State do
the same truth tn taxation that they've forced the cities and the counties and
school districts to do.
Mayor Chmiel: I bet you'll never see it happen.
Councilwoman Oimler: He will introduce that legislation.
Councilman Workman: If I can make a quick point. I guess it doesn't amaze me
but we have a lot of questions about assessed values tonight and that's not what
this hearing is about but lt's complicated enough that it happens in May, or
whenever we've had those and I've sat through 4 of those. That's some of the
justification about my running for other office, not necessarily higher. That
people do get the double whammy that'Don Ashworth talked about. Mtnnetonka
passes a referendum. A big one and then the value of thelr home goes up and
it's out of control. And it's going to increase their mortgage $200.00 a month
11
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
or more. I think what ought to happen is that people, you ought not to be able
to escrow your taxes into your mortgage, because if I was writing that check
every month, and the taxpayers are writing that check every month, boy would
they be honed in on what's going on with their tax dollars and there wouldn't be
any surprises once or twice a year when truth in taxation, which is kind of a
funny word for what goes on.
Resident: The banker sees to it that that's stuck into your mortgage. You
don't have any choice...and that stlcks too but.
Councilman Workman: I've got plenty, and the four assessed valuations in the
springs that I've gone through and the four budgets that I've gone through and
I'm happy to hear some positive comments. I think we've done, I mean we've
tried to, and we've gotten a lot of letters that don't maybe reflect what I've
seen because we've really held the 11ne. But boy there's so much work to be
done down there in St. Paul and that's all I've done for 4 years is scream about
that and hopefully I can go do that.
Kelby Bailey: What specifically have you done and what specifically do you plan
to do about lt?
Councilman Workman: At the City level? What we've done is not raised your city
portion of your taxes.
Mayor Chmiel: In. the last 5 years.
Kelby Bailey: Is there anything you can do on the County or School District
level?
Councilman Workman: I'm a soon to be legislator. 1 of 201. I have more to do
with your property tax blll right now as 1 of 5 people but the School 01strict
ls golng to be asklng for $50 mllllon from you probably in March.
Councilwoman Oimler: You're from Minnetonka I believe aren't you.
Councilman Workman: From Chaska.
Councilwoman Oimler: He's in Minnetonka.
Councilman Workman: Well Minnetonka just asked them for however million.
Councilwoman Oimler: Minnetonka asked and got.
Councilman Workman: Was it $18 m1111on?
Resident: Yeah. Somebody gave themselves a hell of a nice raise. Approximately
the salary of two teachers as I understand lt. Klnd of 11ke me and my brother
have been out of work for over a year...can't get a job...
Councilman Workman: So that's why I feel good and I would have liked to have
slashed your taxes 20~ of the city If it were possible. We talked about, the
orlglnal reason I jumped in was because the publlc safety expenditures that
we're including and we talk about that as almost a national model because what
12
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
are we paying for our police contract, $400,000.00? We could be paying $1
million very easily if we had our own police cars and police officers and
employees, which is an expensive hobby. But we're getting fantastic police
coverage. We are concerned about Flying Cloud Orive, Bluff Creek and ~ome of
these other areas that maybe didn't have as much. That's the conversation I
remember having that we didn't, that we weren't getting enough,'the people out
there weren't seeing the cop cars once a month out there.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, weren't seeing them enough. That's true.
Councilman Workman: But there's plenty to do. The people who really have
control of the legislature don't necessarily have this city and this area and my
soon to be legislative district in mind when they do an awful lot of things.
And so that hopefully will change. I don't think it will be this year but over
the next half a dozen maybe because'the suburbs are kind of getting sick of
shipping their money out of town. But that's, I'll be old and I'll need a
circuit breaker.
Kelby Bailey: I have a couple other questions.
Mayor Chmiel: Would you state your name please and your address?
Kelby Bailey: Yes. My name is Kelby Bailey. I live on Pleasant View Way.
I also am a northern Lotus Lake resident in'the Minnetonka School District.
I have a few questions. You mentioned that the houses in my area hadn't been
assessed for 7 or 8 years. My particular house had not been assessed since it
was built in 1980. That was information given to me from the Carver County
Assessor's office. I know it's not your responsibility or your area but can you
give me a reason of why they're not assessed more frequently than that?
Mayor Chmiel: Unfortunately, in one way you were fortunate. To escape that for
those 12 years but now it's going to catch up. And why they missed you, it's
hard to say. Maybe they were there when you weren't home. And if both people
are working, it becomes rather difficult. But that still is no excuse for that
and that's why they're saying that they will do this within a 3 year period.
Don Ashworth: And in defense of Orlin's office, which they then did get a
second assessor, but we're issuing 300 to 400 single family permits each year.
That means that there's 300 to 400 parcels that have to be individually
reviewed. We're doing upwards of 1,O00'building permits that-include additions,
decks, whatever. Each of those need to be reviewed. It had been to the point
where the assessor's office was solely getting out'and looking at each of these
ne~ additions and not having the manpower to insure that the entire neighborhood
was being re-evalued. And.that hurts.twice'because those people who'do put on
an addition, they're entire parcel'is brought up to the current standards. $o
let's assume if their property was'$1OO,OOO.OO'or'$80,O00.O0, it should really
be at $100,000.00. They put on an addition for.$10,O00.O0. All of a sudden now
they're paying $110,000.00. Their taxes are based on $110,000.00. Well if each
of their neighbors are still at $80,000'00, that's not really fair. And on the
other side, that entire neighborhood could, be sitting at $80,000.00 when a
similar valued home within the rest of. the community is at $100,000.00, that's
not fair either. I really believe that the County Board has provided the
13
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
additional funds and manpower to ensure that that type of thing doesn't happen
again. To go for 12 years without being re-evalued, that's terrible.
Kelby Bailey: I guess my second point that I want to make, I thought it was
ironic that you mentioned speed bumps because the road that I have to access to
get to my house, Pleasant View Road, has a few hundred of those right now and
has for some time. I'm just curious if you're, if the taxes for the residents
in North Lotus Lake area are going up because their houses are being assessed
higher, why isn't that road getting fixed? It's been like this for as long as
I can remember. There's very heavy traffic from residents. There's also a lot
of construction with heavy trucks driving on it. I'm wondering if there's any
plan for the City to do anything about repaying or reconstructing the road? I'm
wondering if you're waiting for the construction to settle down a little bit so
there's not as much heavy traffic on it or what is the plan? I think you
understand what I'm talking. Pleasant View Road goes between TH 101 and Powers
Boulevard and it's very heavy traffic because.
Mayor Chmiel: When you say speed bumps, you're talking.
Kelby Bailey: I'm talklng pot holes. I'm talking I have to drive over gravel
and it's supposed to be a paved road and I'm talking large areas of gravel. It's
the only major access between TH 101 and Powers Boulevard, in that area and so a
lot of people utlllze that. And there's a lot of new development in that area
so I'm just wondering what the plan is for that.
Resident: You try to walk down there and they're coming through there at 40-50
mph.
Kelby Bailey: That's another thing.
Mayor Chmiel: There is a speed of 25 but that's another thing too. You're
rlght.
Kelby Bailey: Is there any plan in the works?
Don Ashworth: The City has carried out a rating system for all of the roadways
withln the community. As a part of that, we can tell you how poor your road is
in comparison to another roadway. That's kind of the good news. The bad news
is, ue don't have a fundlng source in place that can take care of those roadways
that once they have gotten past simply being able to maintain them. We do have
a sealcoat program. We try to keep in good condition those streets that are
still salvagable. When a street gets to the polnt, Chanhassen Estates is a good
example, where literally the entire road base is gone. We do not have a fundlng
source in place that could take care of that. The one source would be to redo
the roadway and to charge the benefitting properties. In other words, each of
the property owners living along the roadway. We have looked at that and Chan
Estates is a very good example where we went through the feasibility. The cost
estimate. We were at I believe $2,000.00 to $3,000.00 per household, and that
of course could be carrled out over 10-15 years, and the neighborhood basically
came back and said, we don't want to pay $2,000.00 to $3,000.00 per household.
That's not a very good answer but it's the best one I have.
14
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
Kelby Bailey: I'm willing to pay my share if my road is decent. All I have to
do is, it's almost a stone throw away to look over at my neighbors across TH lO1
in Eden Prairie where their taxes are probably higher than mine. I'm willing to
pay higher taxes to have a decent road so I don't wreck my car. All I have to
do is look over at their roads which are beautifully maintained. Resurfaced all
the time and I've just seen ours over the years deteriorate more and more.
There comes a time when a road gets too bad and you need to do something about
it. As far as now Z haven't heard of anything going through our neighborhood
asking our neighbors if we want to pay a higher'tax for it. I, myself am
willing to pay a little bit higher tax in order to have the road maintained.
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe what we could do is have our City Engineer give-you a call
and tell you where we are with that particular road on our schedule, and that
might be something that could resolve that problem.
Kelby Bailey: I just think the least they can do is, when there's construction
in the area and the road breaks down so bad that there's gravel all over it, the
least they could do is...Lotus Lake area going up but yet I see the maintenance
of our roads going down, and that's what displeases me tonight.
Don Ashworth: Could I get your phone number?
Kelby Bailey: 470-5003.
Don Ashworth: Would this be a number I could get you during the day?
Kelby Bailey: During the day it would be 545-1550.
Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else? Yes sir.
Herb Kask: Herb Kask, Pleasant View Road. 115. This gentleman talked about
pleasant View Road and I've lived there stnce 1~5~ when it was gravel and when
we built Near Mountain development across the street from us we protested County
Road 62 going through. Near Mountain Boulevard all the way over to Powers Road.
And we pledged the Council at that time, when we decided we didn't want County
Road 62 going through that beautiful piece of property, that we would not
complain about Pleasant View Road, and I'm not here to complain about Pleasant
View Road. And I believe the Council at that time took us at our word. Z have
a proposed property tax statement for 1g~3. Increase 31~. Or 38~ for the
County, 32~ for the City, 55~ for the School District, Minnetonka, and a total
of 47~. And besides that, they re-evaluated by property by $9,000.00 and I
don't think that that's really right but no one of these things Z have any
problem with except the re-evaluation. And I believe my house is worth what
they say it is, at the County. Z can sell it for that much. I hope that
everybody else's taxes in this room they can say the same that I say about mine.
Z don't want anybody to say that my house is, I can sell it for $83,000.00 and
then have somebody else here say, oh I can get 50~ more than that for mine than
mine's evaluated at. It's kind of like buying a used car. You always figure
you're the one that's getting stung until somebody else that's in authority can
tell you, Z'm doing the same thing. I'm getting stuck the-same way. Thank you.
Don Ashworth: I think as I mentioned earlier, bringing up that area produces
more equality throughout the community and I honestly believe that you can go
15
City Council Meeting - December
into any of the other neighborhoods and find that the values in those
neighborhoods will approach 95~ of, the selling price in the neighborhood will
be 95~ of what the Assessor has it on the books for. You try it for 100~.
Herb Kask: Will Ursula Oimler say that same thing?
Don Ashworth: I'll say that as it deals with my neighborhood, which is a block
away from Ursula's. I don't know if you heard the question.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'm just looking at mine here.
Councilman Workman: Our evaluation?
Don Ashworth: The question was, do we honestiy believe that each of our
properties are within 95~ of what we would sell for. I personally believe that
I am right at what I would sell my house for. I don't think I would sell it for
much more than that. I don't think that I would lose much.
Councilwoman Dimler: Right. We're right in the ballpark.
Mayor Chmiel: I think it's a ballpark figure. It really is.
Herb Kask: All five of you can say that?
Councilwoman Dimler: I can say that about mine.
Councilman Workman: My home was completed in January so I have a partial, I
think it's still a partial valuation of mine. I was in talking to you about my
tax statement, belleve me.
Don Ashuorth: Well Tom is fortunate, he has a lot tax only and he will go onto
full value the following year. And that's just part of the State laws.
Councilman Workman: I keep moving so I just have a lot tax.
Mayor Chmiel: He moves from lot to lot. Yes sir.
Tom Devine: I'm Tom Devlne. I'm at 7640 South Shore Drive. You're all to be
commended on doing a good job on the city's budget this year. There's certainly
the County, the State and the Federal government could probably take a real
learning lesson is watching what you people probably have worked on here. My
lssue that I wanted to just ask, I haven't had a chance to digest thls or
research this but at this point, with the Introduction of milfoil in Lotus Lake
this past summer, I know that the City responded and did allocate some funds to
start working on that issue and as I understand it, hasn't really been, the
flrst approach of whatever has been done, was not very effective here thls
summer. And I was wondering if there was funding in this proposed budget to
agaln deal wlth the issue on a more aggressive manner over the course of this
next year, thls next summer. And I think if there's anything to be learned by
the other cltles and the other municipalities that have dealt wlth the mllfoll
problem, it's much easler to deal with tt in a very small scale Initially than
it ls to tackle it after a year or two or three or four years after lt's had a
chance to seed itself and get carried around on the motors and drop all over the
16
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
lake. I don't know what's in this budget this year to address that and I would
hope that that consideration be given to aggressively attacking the problem and
figuring out what needs to be done to take care of it on the inittal stage.
Don Ashworth: Todd Hoffman, I'm wondering if you could address that question.
Todd Hoffman: Mr. Devine, to address your question. Again in 1993, $15,000.00
has been allocated under the environmental protection budget to deal
specifically with milfoil and other nuisance weed problems in the city. The
city does have an agreement with the Department of Natural Resources to carry
out a cost sharing control on Lotus Lake so the Oepartment of Natural Resources
will pay up to 50~ of the cost of controlling of eilfoil.
Tom Devine: So there's $15,000.00 allotted for the whole city or for just that
project?
Todd Hoffman: For the whole city.
Tom Devine: And how, just approximately, how would that divide out then? I
don't know where those funds are belng used but.
Todd Hoffman: Dependent on which lakes are being targeted, milfoil growth on
Lake Minnewashta ls to the point to where anythtng other than the type of
control mechanisms that they're using on Lake Minnetonka, will not be effective.
Spot control on Lake Minnewashta at this polnt ls out of the question so
spending any money on Minnewashta is not being proposed...The Department of
Natural Resources has shown a very strong interest' in woK-king with the city in
that regard. That's one of the reasons they signed the Joint Powers Agreement
to fund the control of mllfoll in Lotus Lake.
Mayor Chmiel: Right. There's supposedly something new found in a larvae that
will start taklng control of milfoil. As I talked to a friend of mtne at the
DNR, he sald it seems to be the right thing for eliminating it completely. But
they're studying it just a little more to see tf it could go in different
directions for the rest of the greens within the lake. And hopefully, from what
I've heard, and from what he has told me, that it really looks to be the best
thing they've come across. So hopefully It may come up with something. Anyone
else?
Frank Kurvers: Good evening. My name is Frank Kurvers and I live at 7220
Kurvers Point Road and I'm going to congratulate the Council also.' I think
you're in certain areas you're doing a good job but there's still areas that are
not covered. And the ones I want to bring up here and everybody so far eluded
to what's the problem really here. And I'd like to know as far as the tax
increment district, how does this effect this budget?
Don Ashworth: Does the tax increment distrlct effect?
Frank Kurvers: Yes.
Don Ashuorth: If the tax increment district were to cease, there would be no
change in the levy over what you see today.
17
City Council Meeting - December
Frank Kurvers: That's true because the residents are paying all the bills.
Don Ashworth: I'm sorry.
Frank Kurvers: Right now we have paid since 1978, City Hall, City Hall
remodeling, Fire Station, Fire Station remodeling, street lighting, street
maintenance, police protection, fire department ladder truck, new employees to
serve the district and you're saying it won't change right? That's right
because we picked up the bill since 1978.
Don Ashworth: I do not agree with that position. I would invite Frank to come
in. We prepared a report. It's called, "Who Wins under Tax Increment". Who
loses. The cost that Frank referred to as being born by the general public,
within the current budget, the cost for employees and other costs are
approximately $300,000.00 to $400,000.00 that is not being paid by the general
citizen, but is being paid directly by that district. For each of the examples
that you gave, I can give another example of where you as a citizen did not have
to pay. For example, we have a very beautiful park at Lake Susan. It was paid
entirely through tax increment. You mentioned City Hall. The courtyard area
was paid for through tax increment. The parking lots, as we sit. here today,
were paid through tax increment. All of the major improvements within the
downtown and every one of us as citizens would have seen some portion of those
bills. In addition, your analysis does not consider that from the State
perspective, the city of Chanhassen is considered as an industrially poor
community. For 1993, $1,019,000.00 flow back to the City of Chanhassen to help
reduce general property taxes because we are a fiscal disparities winner. The
tax increment district ceases and over $2,100,000.00 flows out of this community
and goes to the metro area. Specifically, Minneapolis and St. Paul. We, as
taxpayers, lose those tax dollars.
Frank Kurvers: Well, I've got a quote here from Scott County, which says.
Property taxes levied by Scott County and Shakopee School District are high
because much of the property is taken off the tax rolls. A new study says that
the taxes on the remaining property therefore must be htgher. The study was
conducted by an accounting flrm of 01son, Field and Company which was retained
by the governmental units after a tax revolt rumbled through the Minnesota River
bottom last year. Zn some cases taxes have doubled. Tax increment financing
districts, which are created by cities to encourage development,.take the
property off the general tax roll until the clties develop and costs are patd
for. With revenue from taxes on the project itself, while the project is off
the tax rolls for the clty, it also generates no tax revenue for school
districts or the county. In order for those entittes to raise enough money to
operate, they must false the taxes on other properties to replace the income
lost by putting some land in the tax increment district. Also, the city has In
effect lost property values for taxing purposes through the metropolitan area
fiscal disparities. I understand that law but we're, I disagree that we're
gaining.
Don Ashworth: You know there are.
Frank Kurvers: The County also, just let me read this. The County also lost tn
the disparity pull until 1988 when to pull then it was paying lnto the
consultant's report. The Shakopee School District, which is mostly within
18
City Council Heeting - December 9, 1992
Shakopee is caught between city and state policies. The report said, citing
lost of property tax and the city financing district can reduce the State aid
from the State. The report said, that taxes per capita, are high because of the
County's relatively low population. The report said, there is nothing officials
can do to change the impact of fiscal disparities distribution formula when the
projects built with tax increment financing, such as the K-Hart warehouse,
Canterbury Downs Racetrack, are paid for. Then the tax revenue from those
facilities will go back into the general treasury.. Up until this time has
anything gone back into the treasury?
. .
Don Ashworth: Yes.
Frank Kurvers: Besides the money that you're saying that. you took out of those
funds.
Don Ashworth: [f the district did not exist, we would not be receiving the
fiscal disparity distribution that we're receiving. Second, [ agree. Certain
counties, and tn fact ! would probably say a majority, have said that tax
increment districts hurt them. [ would say that many school districts say that.
But, as we're talking, the Carver County has taken a position that the City of
Chanhassen should not cease this tax increment district. That it ts a benefit
to Carver County. That they would recommend to this Council that that district
not cease. There has been cost sharing proposal back to the County. between $3
and $5 million to Carver County that would not have occurred if it were not for
tax increment dollars. The School District has passed a reso[ution saying they
do not want to see Chanhassen cease our tax increment district...The dollars
being shared with the School Oistrict are sore than they wou[d receive if that
tax increment district ceased ....
Frank Kurvers: The only trouble ts, Htnnetonka residents will never see one
dies out of this which you're talking about. Nothing..You're taking and the
distribution they'll never see. And all the people that are here from
Hinnetonka School District are paying for tt and they'll.never-receive it. Once
it comes back on the tax rolls, it's go£ng to be in Chaska School District.
Don Ashworth: As tt deals with cost sharing with.the Chaska School District,
those comments are correct because the tax increment district and where
potential dollars could be lost is within the Chaska School.District..-Not the
Htnnetonka districts. So therefore tf the district ceased, the people would not
be sharing in that tax base. Again, a comment that because you've had to pay
for additional costs living tn the Htnnetonka. Oistrict that,s supporting the.
general city, ! continue to say, [ mean we're proposing to.have tax increment
build a library, a neu library for our community. If you've been in our
library, we're crouded. We cannot adequately provide the services, in that area.
We're looking to a conference center within the.downtoun.area. Again, there was
major renovations that occurred uithin, the downtoun. Irll go .through those.
other examples of Lake Susan Park. Well, I think that.the list.of positive
things that you have not had to pay for exceeds those type of.general.costs that
may have been an increase back to your property ..... And l.agree with the.ladder
truck, the Fire Station. . .......
. .
Frank Kurvers: Well you can debate it and all you uant to debate it and ! can
bring you just as many facts that it's hurting us in Hinnetonka ae you can give
19
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1~92
me that it's doing me some good. And I talked to the County Assessor, which
you're saying the County is all satisfied. Well that's not necessarily true.
I mean we can all bring up points that you talked to this guy and it's all fine.
Well I can find people that will say it's not what you just said.
Mayor Chmiel: I don't think this is a debating issue here.
Frank Kurvers: I think it's an issue as far as taxes.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes, and I don't disagree with that Frank. But I think what I'd
like you to do, if you have an opportunity, is to come in and sit down with Don
again and go through the processes of what you're saying. Pull together your
figures from one side to the other and then reach a conclusion.
Frank Kurvers: weii I know I can show you that it's costing us money.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, and I understand what you're saying.
Councilwoman Dimler: Can I make a comment at this point?
Mayor Chmiel: Sure, Ursula.
Councilwoman Dimler: We do have a meeting set aside especially for that purpose
on December llth. This coming Friday at 10:00 a.m.. I believe it's going to be
in your conference room Don and I'd like to invite you and all the other
citizens that are concerned about it because I know there are more of them out
there. To come in and express those concerns again and [ know Don is going to
show us how the citizen actually does benefit or make a good.
Frank Kurvers: Yeah, they sure benefit as far as Canterbury Downs. The city
of Shakopee when it's belly up.
Councilwoman Dimler: The whole State benefitted from that.
Don Ashworth: The parties that will be present will be Dave Clough representing
the School District, who will be saying he does not believe that the District
should cease. Jeff Priess who is their Business Manager who will say that he
does not believe the district should cease. Dick Stolz, the County
Administrator who will say that he does not believe the district should cease.
Frank Kurvers: ...I talked to the Administrator at Carver County and he told me
that the opposite, so you can get anybody you want to tell you...
Councilwoman Dimler: Frank, may I clarify that Mr. Mayor? Dick at first did
not like the idea but we made an agreement with him that these roads in Eastern
Carver County here, in Chanhassen especially need, that are also county roads,
really need to be upgraded. And so we came to an agreement that we would
allocate some of those dollars to those roads and then they were in favor.
Because now the County is benefitting as well as the School District will be
benefitting and so my concern was that everybody's benefitting except we don't
know how the citizen fares and that's why we're having this meeting.
2O
City Council Meeting - December 9, [992
Frank Kurvers: Well I think that if you think it so strong that everybody's
benefitting, I think that we should have a committee to look into this total
project and if this project is benefitting the entire citizens of Chanhassen,
I'm 100~ for it. But I think we'd better put it on the table and show them that
it is.
Councilwoman Dimler: And that's what this meeting is trying to do.
Mayor Chmiel: I think one of the points you're making Frank is that Minnetonka
School District, being in that you're situated, is not benefitting from the TIF
but being in Carver County does and will benefit you from the County aspect.
And having those taxing dollars come back into the County. From that standpoint
it will benefit you, but not as far as the School District is concerned. You're
rlght. And it can't.
Councilman Mason: I guess I'd just like to make a comment, being a member of
City Council in the Minnetonka School District. I'm not totally ignorant of
some of the concerns that Frank has. I feel~ after what I've learned about TIF,
I feel pretty confident that yeah, the Minnetonka School District is not.going
to beneflt from it but I do think the city of Chanhassen and the citizenry of
chanhassen are benefitting from it. And it seems to me that that and this
situation is at least as important, if not more important. I think it's clear
we would be In a lot worst shape than we are if we didn't have TIF. And that
does not, my taxes in the Minnetonka School District went up proportionately as
your's did, and I'm aware of that. But I think when you look at everything, I
thlnk we're going in the right dlrection~ .-
Frank Kurvers: If you look at everything, you've got t-o look at everything.
Right, and I agree with you 100~. You've got to look at everything. We're only
picking at pieces. We pick out pieces, it all looks good.-When you put. it all
in one basket, hey. It's been going on since 1978 .and I know what the money
that was taken in. I know. I checked and I tell you. You've got to put that
all in perspective. Not just surface things that you see. You've got to put the
total thing since 1978.
Don Ashworth: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes Don.
Don Ashworth: [ should acknowledge that the Council has received letters from
owners expressing their points in regard to the 1993 budget. Mr. Charles
Hultner, Katherine Erdahl, Joseph Tersteeg, Dick Hanson, Marjorie Depose, and
Pete Bosch.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, those are in addition to.thts?
Don Ashworth: Yes.
Mayor Chmlel: Okay. Is there anyone else who would like to say something? If
not, we will have a continuation of this public hearing on Monday, Oecember [4th
at 7:30 for the acceptance of the tax levy and budget. And I'd like to.
Don Ashworth: Mr. Mayor?
21
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
Hayor Chmiel: Yes.
Don Ashworth: You are correct. We had originally looked to the 14th as the
continued date. However, we were not notified until after we set that date that
I believe it was the Eden Prairle $chool District, which we have no children
within, that is holding their hearing on the 14th. Their continued hearing. We
cannot hold it on the same date as the County or the $chool District. For us
that makes it more difficult because we have three school districts and two
counties and we came up then wlth an alternative date for I belleve tomorrow
evening.
Mayor Chmiel: I only have 3 meetings tomorrow night.
Don Ashworth: I would hope that the Council would consider that almost all of
the comments made deal with values of property in which we will have the
Assessor getting back with those property owners. I believe that we have done a
good job in terms of meeting the goals of the Councll and ! would ask if you
would conslder adopting the 1993 budget as presented with the reduction of an
additional $5,000.00 from the proposed expenditures of the operating budget.
And the corresponding tax levy for that budget.
Councilwoman Oimler: Could we make a few comments?
Mayor Chmiel: Discussion, sure.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. I guess one of the things that in your presentation
Oon that if it's not properly understood, could tend to upset some people, is
that the higher valued homes, there was a shift in their taxes and it sounds
like their taxes were reduoed which is not really the truth. The only thing
that was reduced was a reduction in the amount of the lncrease so they too saw
an increase but they saw a reduced amount in the increase than what they had
been gettlng.
Don Ashworth: As it deals with property owners within the Chaska District,
except for those people who had their property re-evalued, which again was
primarily Lotus Lake and the northern tler, people with values in excess of
$150,000.00 saw an average of lO~ to 12~ reduction.
Councilwoman Dimler: Well yes, it can result in a reduction but the shift was
not a reduction in the tax or in the formula but It was in the reduction in the
amount of the increase. I think that's, at least that's the way Dick $tolz
explained it yesterday. That it could actually result in a reduction but not
necessarily, depending on the valuation of your home. In other words, it sounds
like the people or the people who 1lye tn the upper or higher valued homes
actually are not paylng as much taxes as. I don't want to leave that impression
because they're paying their fair share.
Don Ashworth: The higher valued homes did see.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes, they saw a reduction but that was because they were
paylng too much.
Mayor Chmiel: That's right, true.
22
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
Councilwoman Dimler: See, and Z don't want to leave the impression that we' re
favoring higher valued homes.
Don Ashworth= We had nothing to do with that. It's the legislature.
Councilwoman Oimler: I know that but I mean that could be an impression that
someone would get out of what we had said.
Mayor Chmiel: Good point.
Councilwoman Dimler: And also I wanted to ask like Mr. Hanson and Mrs. £rdahl
both eluded to a high increase of 105~ and 110~ in other districts. Could you
explain what those other districts might represent?
Don Ashworth: Unfortunately I did not get a breakdown from Laurie at Carver
County as to what each of the special districts were proposing to levy. But as
a general statement, those include Mosquito Control, Transit, Metropolitan
Council. We have four Watershed Oistricts within the community. A property is
only in one of those four but those represent & special taxing district. In
total they.
Mayor Chmiel: Could we have it quiet please so we can hear the discussion here.
Thank you.
Don Ashworth: They will be levying about 8~ of the total tax bill goes to those
special districts for 1993.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. So that explains what those other districts might
be. Okay, thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thomas, any comments?
Councilman Workman: No.
Mayor Chmiel: Michael.
Councilman Mason: Don, you're asking for approval of the budget tonight knowing
that there will be an additional $5,000.00 cut from the budget?
Don Ashworth: I hear the City Council state that they absolutely did not want
to take and create a property tax increase, at least for the City portion. We
are so close to what I'll call exactly the same level as last year, that by
cutting an additional $5,000.00 you can guarantee that, assuming your value
stayed the same, that the City will not, there will be no tax statement out
there that would show the city increasing.
Councilman Mason: I'm comfortable with that. My concern is approving a budget
knowing that $5,000.00 is going to go away from it and I don't know where it's
going to be taken out of before I approve the budget.-
Mayor Chmiel: We know where it's going. If you'd like to come over, I'll
whlsper in your ear.
23
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
Councilman Mason: Well yeah, I would.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, I can tetl you where it's coming from.
Councilman Mason: You can't get blood from a turnlp.
Mayor Chmiel: With the pumper that we had from the Fire Oepartment and the
carrlage that has been rottlng out on lt. They estimated that it would be
somewhere in the neighborhood of about $60,000.00 to replace the apparatus with
it as well. We're flndlng that the bids are much lower and that's where lt's
golng to come from.
Councilwoman Dimler: Could I make one more comment? I know somebody out here
mentioned what our State Legislature is going to do for us. I know there's a
tax sales association that's going to, well. That w111 help but they're going
to lobby heavily, if they haven't done so already, to shift more of the burden
onto the homeowners and take it away from business, commercial and industrial.
And I would hope that everyone out here would write a letter to their legislator
and their Senator to voice your opposition to that because this is a speclal
interest group that wants that shift to occur and of course the rest of us
don't.
Councilman Workman: We'll move it to farms.
Councilwoman Olmler: Right. Tax us out of existence.
Mayor Chmiel: Is there a motion? Because of the conflict that exists tomorrow
and we have to get this done. I don't want it to appear as though we're pushlng
it but I thlnk it's a very reasonable budget and I feel that staff has worked
hard at it, as well as Council, to come up with this so I would entertain a
motion because of the conflict.
Councilman Mason: Considering the fact that most of the issues tonight, well
none of the issues tonight have really dealt with city budget, Z have heard no
complaints with what we're proposing for a budget so with that I'll move
approval of the budget as stated for 1993.
Mayor Chmiel: With the $5,000.00 reduction?
Councilman Mason: With the $5.000.00 reduction. With the understanding that
it's going toward what has been stated.
Councilman Workman: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Before I call for the question, I
will then entertain closlng the public hearing and resort back to your motion.
Councilwoman Otmler moved, Councilman Nason seconded to close the publtc
hearlng. All voted in favor and the morton carried. The publlc heartng was
closed.
Mayor Chmiel: Again, thank you for coming down, indicating your concerns and
hopefully something can be done with this. We won't guarantee it but we always
24
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1992
look at that aspect.
Councilwoman Dimler: We need to approve the budget.
Mayor Chmiel: Pardon?
Councilwoman Dialer: We closed the public hearing but didn't approve the
budget.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Now ! would like the approval for the budget as so stated
by Mike Mason and seconded by Tom Workman.
Resolution ~92-~39= Councilman t~son ~m~-d, Councilman #orkaan s~,onded to
adopt the 1993 budget as presented with the rec~ctton of an additional $5,0~.00
from the proposed expenditures of the o~rattng buck~et ~td the correspondi~tg tax
levy for that ba4dget. ~Ltl voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Chmiel adjourned the meeting at 9:07 p.m..
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
25