CC 2007 07 09
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
JULY 9, 2007
Mayor Furlong called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m.. The meeting was opened with the
Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mayor Furlong, Councilman Litsey, Councilwoman
Ernst, Councilwoman Tjornhom, and Councilman Peterson
STAFF PRESENT:
Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Laurie Hokkanen, Kate Aanenson, Paul
Oehme, and Todd Hoffman
PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS:
Kurt Papke Planning Commission
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
Mayor Furlong: Thank you and good evening to everybody that is here and those who are
watching at us at home. We're glad you joined us. I'd ask any members of the council for
modifications to the agenda. Without any objection then we'll proceed with the agenda as
published.
CONSENT AGENDA:
Mayor Furlong: If there's a desire for discussion on any of the items before action is taken by
either members of the council or others present that will be removed from the consent agenda.
So at this time I would ask members of the council and any other individuals present in the
council chambers if they would like to any item 1(a) through (k) removed for separate
discussion.
Councilwoman Ernst: Mr. Mayor, I'd like 1(b).
Mayor Furlong: 1(b). Okay. Thank you. Is that a long discussion or clarification, questions.
We'll bring it up after new business if that's okay.
Councilwoman Ernst: Yeah.
Mayor Furlong: Is that alright? Okay.
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, I've got one item (f). We handed out some minor changes to the
application and the resolution.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Without objection we'll just consider that as part of consent agenda.
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Councilwoman Ernst: Well I'd like to ask to pull it off to ask some questions about the 1(b).
Mayor Furlong: No, I'm sorry. This is 1(f).
Councilwoman Ernst: Oh, sorry.
Mayor Furlong: 1(b) we'll take up after new business. Mr. Gerhardt was speaking to item 1(f).
There was some minor modifications in the pages handed out to us so if everyone is comfortable
with what they've seen, we'll continue that as part of our consent agenda items.
Todd Gerhardt: Thank you.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any other items? If not then is there a motion to approve items
1(a) through (k) excluding (b) and as amended.
Councilman Litsey moved, Councilwoman Ernst seconded to approve the following consent
agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
a. Approval of Minutes:
-City Council Work Session Minutes dated June 25, 2007
-City Council Summary & Verbatim Minutes dated June 25, 2007
Receive Commission Minutes:
-Planning Commission Summary & Verbatim Minutes dated June 19, 2007
c. Award of Bid, Power Hill Park Trail.
d. Fox Hill Subdivision, 6570 Chanhassen Road:
1) Final Plat Approval.
2) Approval of Plans & Specifications and Development Contract
Resolution #2007-42:
f. Approval of Resolution Establishing a Special Assessment
Deferment Policy, as amended by staff.
g. Approval of Amendment to Chapter 4 of City Code: Establishing Rate for Bulk Water
Sales.
i. Approve Letter of Support for Federal Funding for the Reconstruction of CSAH 18
(Lyman Boulevard) Between TH 41 and CSAH 17 (Powers Boulevard).
j. Approval of Amendment to Chapter 7, Section 18 of City Code: Adopting the 2007
Minnesota State Building Code.
Resolution #2007-43:
k. Approval of Letter of Support for Federal Funding and Resolution
for the Lake Minnewashta Regional Park Bicycle/Pedestrian Trail, TH 41 Underpass.
2
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
None.
PUBLIC HEARING: THE ARBORS, 7537 AND 7570 DOGWOOD ROAD: REQUEST
FOR VACATION OF DRAINAGE & UTILITY EASEMENTS, TRAIL EASEMENT
AND ROAD RIGHT-OF-WAY; CARLSON ARBORS DEVELOPMENT, LLC.
Public Present:
Name Address
th
Donald Peterson 15725 15 Place No., Plymouth
Paul Oehme: Thank you Mayor, City Council members. The developer for the Arbors has
requested the following easements be vacated from the plat. Or the underlying easements before
the plat is filed at Carver County. The easements in question are shown in the drawing here and
th
again this is the Arbors development which is located off of 78 Street, just west of 41 and
Dogwood Road. The easements proposed to be vacated are shown in yellow and red here.
Zimmers Road is shown here. This is a 30 foot easement that was dedicated in 1990 under the
Zimmerman plat. Associated with that is the drainage utility easements shown here in yellow.
Also indicated on the same plat and a 20 foot wide trail easement shown here. These easements
are no longer needed in conjunction with, since we do have the Arbors plat and development that
has been approved. Staff recommends that the easements be vacated conditioned that the final
plat be recorded and the development contract also be signed and recorded as well so. I stand for
questions and I request that a public hearing be opened at this time.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any questions for staff? If not then we'll move forward. Open the
public hearing and invite all interested parties to come forward and speak on this matter. Seeing
nobody then, without objection we'll close the public hearing. Bring it back to council for
discussion. Any discussion by council members?
Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve.
Mayor Furlong: Motion to approve staff's recommendation. Is there a second?
Councilwoman Ernst: Second.
Mayor Furlong: Made and seconded. Any discussion on that motion?
Resolution #2007-44: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilwoman Ernst seconded to
approve the vacation of drainage and utility easements, trail easements and road right-of-
way subject to filing The Arbors final plat and development contract. All voted in favor
and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
3
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
TH
LAKE RILEY WOODS 4 ADDITION: CONSIDER APPROVAL OF PRELIMINARY
AND FINAL PLAT.
Public Present:
Name Address
A.G. Peterson 9525 Highview Drive, Eden Prairie
Boyd Peterson 9860 Pioneer Circle
Steve Taylor Carver County
Kate Aanenson: Thank you Mayor, members of the council. This item is a request for a
subdivision to create 6 outlots for public right-of-way on Pioneer Circle, Lake Riley Woods 4th.
The subdivision will allow the transfer of 4 lots to the abutting properties. Pioneer Trail, the
Halla golf course, 9 hole course and 101 on this side and Deerbrook Trail. The history of this
plat is stated in your staff report are existing large lot homes were identified in here that some of
these houses were built '52. To the best of our knowledge this house is quite a bit older. And
then 1965 and 1962. None of them met the requirements of the underlying zoning district at the
time that they were built. Since then we've gone to the 2 1/2 acre minimum so they're a legal
non-conforming at the time. Again these are lots that do not have sewer and water and as part of
the overall update of the sewer plan, we did look at providing sewer, that's one of the options that
we're looking at. Not that it's out intent but we want to look at that and put it in for financial
modeling, but it's not our intent to buy that. This property, the plat that we're looking at was the
result of Pioneer Trail being moved to the north and it was an extraction actually from property
to the north so this property that's abutting that is gaining additional property was never extracted
from them, so it's just a give back to clear up a remnant piece that the county owns. In an
original communication the city staff with the county, it was our desire to provide some
additional drainage. Now unfortunately we miscommunicated and the plat was drawn up and
presented to a neighbor that really didn't meet the city's needs because we have some drainage
issues out there and I'll speak to those in a minute. So the goal that it provides access to these
properties from Pioneer Circle as indicated in the staff report to give access. So all the lots, to
give them right-of-way to make them whole as far as meeting the standards, to give access to
Pioneer Circle except for this existing lot. We have spoken with the county and we may be able
to get an easement across that in the future if the county wants to update that road. This again
would remain with the County to provide a possibility for a drainage, I mean driveway easement
to go across that property in the future so then they would all have, that wouldn't be done today
but the county did want to…
Mayor Furlong: I'm sorry widen what, Pioneer Trail?
Kate Aanenson: Pioneer Trail, right.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: Upon addition, if they need additional right-of-way. So then the Outlot A is
where the city was looking at for providing the storage for additional drainage easement. On the
4
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
compliance table on your staff report on page 6 you can see how much property each lot is
getting. Again that makes them whole as far as our lot standards, access to the public street itself
and so none of that's really changing. It's just on paper. The right-of-way that they're getting
dedicated. So why is the city looking at taking additional drainage? I just wanted to look at this
map. So this is the subject site itself. You did receive a letter presented to you from Mr.
Peterson, Boyd Peterson who's one of the lots, who wanted the additional property that's was…
to the property owners. In this area right here of Pioneer Circle and somewhat Deerbrook, it
drains towards the Halla property and we have a pipe that's coming down on Frontier Road that
actually comes across here through a pipe, underneath the road. We have a lot of erosion. This
is one of the projects that water resources was working in right now doing a rain garden, but we
wanted to provide some additional holding capacity upstream so while the letter does state that
we don't have a project in place, we don't. We're working on one…put into the CIP and we'll be
developing a future plan to provide additional ponding. And then if there is additional capacity
we can maybe use it for wetland banking or something like that but it's our intention to provide
that additional capacity. Again it's not just the Pioneer Circle area but some of Deerbrook too.
Again all those subdivisions were put in place without stormwater capacity. The City's rationale
and unfortunately we miscommunicated on the size of what we needed when it came back and
we said well that's not going to be big enough for our needs so that was the miscommunication
and request. So again, this takes the, some of the property back to the property owners instead of
leaving it all in the name of the county. Something that they intended to do for a while and
they're finally cleaning up. So with that the Planning Commission did hold a public hearing on
th
June 19 and they did recommend 7-0 to approve the plat as shown before you tonight. So with
that we are recommending approval with the conditions in the staff report and I'd be happy to
answer any questions that you have.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any questions for staff? Okay, good. Mr. Taylor, any comments
of the applicant?
Steve Taylor: Just a couple of quick comments if I could. Good evening Mr. Mayor and City
Council members. I'm Steve Taylor. I'm the Administrative Services Division Director with
Carver County and I just want to let you know that I personally did speak with all the
homeowners about this proposal and I also wanted to let you know that we are in the process of
initiating a torrens action on this property to clean it up. There are gaps here. There are some
issues that are prescriptive use types of issues that we want to clean up so this is an area that
really needs to be cleaned up as far as a torrens action goes and we are pursuing that as well so,
because there are gaps on ownership areas here. They're not significant but it has caused some
problems with title work and such so we are going to be pursuing that here as well so.
Mayor Furlong: Alright, thank you. Any questions? For Mr. Taylor. No. Okay. We did
receive a letter. I know nobody spoke at the public hearing at the Planning Commission but we
did receive a letter from one property owner. Is there any comment of any individuals who
would like to provide public comment on this matter, this would be the time.
Boyd Peterson: Yeah good evening. I'm Boyd Peterson. Reside at 9860 Pioneer Circle. Just to
start out with we're just happy this process is finally this far. It has been 20 years since this has
been said to be done and there's a lot of problems with the corners and property corners. I hope
5
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
maybe if possible everybody got a chance to actually go look at this site and not just look at the
pictures because it is quite different. Somewhat disagree, actually I really disagree on what the,
on what your staff is looking at here. This corner is a hole and I don't see how Deerbrook is
involved with the drainage of this at all. This area has been there for 20 years. That's how you
see it is how it's been for 20 years. The reason it is a wetland today is because when Pioneer
Trail was re-modified, the culvert is 3 feet higher than your original drainage that went under
Pioneer Trail at the time. So this is a created wetland. The original flowage went how it is but
th
obviously lower. I am a little bit wondering too how we're included as Lake Riley Woods 4
st
Addition. You know this property has been there for 50-60 years. How come we're not 1
Addition but somehow we fell within the Lake Riley Woods project. And at the time in that
th
whole area is 2.5 acre minimum lots, but yet we're always lined up with 4 Addition Lake Riley
Woods and it seems to me this is the time to get everybody within the property of the zoning of
how it stands today if we're going to be under this Lake Riley Woods. As far as this wetland and
management project, as I outlined a little bit in there, I'm a little bit concerned about what kind of
project they've got lined up because the lowest point of this property is where you see it on the
far bottom northwest corner, which is adjacent to Halla Greens Golf Course. Now I don't know
if anybody's gotten a chance to look at that algae pit that's going there but that drainage is going
to have to be dealt with in a big way and whatever drainage from over there is going to drain into
this wetland project. And therefore it's going to eventually, if the plan goes through, it's going to
head right on down the stream to the lowest pond of Lake Riley itself, into the Lake Riley-
Purgatory watershed to the Minnesota River. I guess that we've prepared to let everybody know
they're putting golf course fertilizers right on down into the river because that's exactly what
we're going to do. You know if you look at that area now, it's done real fine for 20 years. I
mean it's taken care of itself and most of the area that they want to make wetland, like I stated I
hope everybody's looked at it, it's trees. There's native trees. There's big, large trees. I don't see
how anything could be growing in a wetland with trees of that size. So what do you do? Cut
down a woods to make a wetland you know? And another problem you've got there is there's the
pipeline is right across that corner. So there's a lot of issues that I think ought to be looked at
before just cutting these lines in and saying okay, let's make this a drainage pond but I think if
anything could be done with it with what I've proposed would be a line that would be a
reasonable line which would be enough high ground left over and enough low ground to do a
little project if that's what it's going to be. You know, but do we want to throw money at that? I
think, I don't know and I don't see how when all is said and taken care of a golf course's problem
of their drainage and then send it down the river. And if it ends up being in front of my house
and I've got an algae pit that I've got to look at down there, I won't be too happy as a neighbor.
That area's done fine by itself for 20 years so there's probably many more things I can say but I'm
not going to take a lot of time. We've outlined it. I couldn't make the Planning Commission
because I was up in North Dakota University with my son. Otherwise you know I thought a
letter would be enough but my proposal is, is just take that property and X it up a little bit
different and let's get everybody close to 2.5 acres if we're falling under this zoning of this area
regardless if we're old. Seems like we're old but yet we're new. So I'd say let's go with the
newest proposal and get everybody up to code and let's just make some square corners instead of
all these outlots again. Our original proposal from the county was quite a bit different than what
it is today, and I understand the city wants to get as much wetland area as possible because we're
losing it faster than we're gaining it and they all of a sudden see a section that they can do
6
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
something with. That's fine if it's something they can do something with there, but I potentially
don't see what can be done but do a lot more harm. Thank you.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Ms. Aanenson, thoughts. Comments and direction.
Kate Aanenson: Again the pond is not intended to treat Halla's ponding. This is ponding that
goes to the Deerbrook trail side and across these properties. There's actually two ponding areas
that were identified in the staff report. Outlot E and Outlot A were planned to ponding sites.
Again the purpose of ponding site is to clean it up before it, to pre-treat it so that should improve
the quality, and that other pond that's on Halla's is not intended to be, that's an aesthetic type
pond.
Councilman Litsey: So the pond helps pre-treat it and not so much control the rate of the water.
Kate Aanenson: Exactly. And that's what's causing the erosion across the street as I pointed out,
and that's what we're trying to reduce the velocity and hold that in.
Councilman Litsey: So both uses will hopefully help with the water downstream.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Anyone else? Have comments. Okay, thank you.
Appreciate that. Let's bring it back to council for thoughts, discussion, additional questions of
staff.
Councilman Peterson: I guess I had one more question Kate. I'm searching for the relevance of
rdth
what we call this area, whether it's 3 Addition or 4 Addition. I'm assuming there isn't any
relevance to it from a legal standpoint or from a land standpoint.
Kate Aanenson: No. Correct.
Councilman Peterson: You just.
Kate Aanenson: We call it the Pioneer Circle area, yeah.
Todd Gerhardt: But wasn't there an underlying land that was a part of the Lake Riley Woods is
why you came up with this one?
Kate Aanenson: That's my understanding this goes way, way back.
Councilman Peterson: But again it's a name. We could have picked all of it. Timbuktu
Addition 3.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
7
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Councilman Peterson: Yea I think, Mr. Mayor I think it's consistent with other stuff that we've
done in the community. It looks, I try not to peel back the onion so far that I start saying what
should and shouldn't be holding ponds and types of water going in there. I assume our staff has
looked at that and this is the best thing for the city and the lake and the river and everything else
so I certainly don't see the reason why the staff's recommendation isn't solid in this case. I
certainly look forward to approving that.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Any thoughts?
Councilwoman Tjornhom: I guess, I'll go next. I read the Planning Commission summary and
you know I think the other one was kind of worried about homeowners actually gaining property
at this point and nothing's going to happen to it or you know, so I think it's a positive thing that
you know this has been in the works for 20 years and finally it's coming to completion so I guess
I have no, the Planning Commission didn't seem to have any concerns so I'll follow their lead
and not have any concerns also.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Councilwoman Ernst.
Councilwoman Ernst: Kate, just looking into the future do you see any potential issues with the
direction that we're going with? I mean.
Kate Aanenson: No, and I think that was, if you look at, even if we combine the lots, all these
lots are undersized. They're already legal non-conforming. The only thing that would change is
we move through looking at the sewer study and the possibility of providing sewer to this area
and what that timeframe would be. Right now we have it in 2020. We just talked about some of
the modeling and potentials for looking at that. So that shouldn't change it. At best it would stay
if we did provide sewer and water, it may be problematic even to subdivide then just based on
the road access. We try not to have 2 driveways on one lot so it's just a little more problematic.
So really you're just getting the county's cleaning it up. Putting in the road right-of-way and
giving them some additional property. Trying to keep everybody an equal footing, and then
meeting the City's needs and that's the part that got miscommunicated. What we actually needed,
the size.
Councilwoman Ernst: So what's been said before then, the standard width is what we do within
the city.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Councilman Litsey: Yeah, pretty much agree with what's been said. It seems like a reasonable
approach. I like the fact that it's going to help with, hopefully purify and slow the rate of water
going downstream in that watershed area. I think that's a positive thing for the city to take
advantage of that opportunity now. So I would support it.
8
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. I like the, as I understand the purpose here and again this is left
over from 20 years ago so we're doing something that should have been done a while ago which,
but you can't go back so let's do it now but the key here is, is to give each of these properties
direct access to a public right-of-way and to correct…where it doesn't exist. So that's the
primary purpose. I think as mentioned here and was glad to hear, you know anytime there's an
opportunity as well to improve that, to reduce the non-conformity, which we're reducing it from
an area standpoint, perhaps not eliminate it but also creating those access to public right-of-way,
you know if there's an opportunity to take the one property that does access with a driveway
directly out to Pioneer Trail, and work it through that Outlot E so they can come back to Pioneer
Circle and eliminate another access point, even though it's a county road, I know we do that all
the time on state roads but Pioneer Trail will continue to increase in traffic and having been out
there and trying to get out Pioneer Circle and it takes some, you've got to wait and so reducing
those points, if that's something we can do going forward, I think we should try to do that for all
the reasons that we talk about in other places but I don't think there's any reason to stop this.
That can be done anyway. With regard to maintaining Outlot A and it's size is proposed here,
and E, I support that. We're achieving a goal of providing driveway access, property owner's
access to the right-of-way. We've seen in other parts of our city where we have needs for
establishing stormwater ponds or doing some projects and having that property under control is
one area that we don't have to deal with whenever there's an opportunity to do that so. I certainly
support what's being proposed here because it achieves the goals, multiple goals at the same time
and it gets something done that I think is a benefit to all so I think going forward as proposed by
the staff at this time and recommended by the Planning Commission would concur.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Just so Mr. Boyd knows his voice, we heard you and maybe if he
could meet with staff.
Kate Aanenson: We have met.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: …feel more comfortable with what is happening so.
Mayor Furlong: But maybe before anything happen there, there would certainly be.
Kate Aanenson: Are we talking about the ponding? Oh yes, absolutely.
Mayor Furlong: Yeah there would certainly be a project would have to be, that would go up to
the entire public process. Complete with opportunities for public comment and all
neighborhoods and individual residents and nearby property owners.
Kate Aanenson: Absolutely.
Mayor Furlong: Well I hear what he's saying clearly. I think this is just a situation where we're
achieving in terms of providing, the purpose is to provide direct driveway access to a public
9
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
right-of-way. We can do that and still maintain area that can serve for another public service
which is stormwater management and I think staff's proposal fairly balances those two purposes.
Thank you. Any other thoughts or comments? If not, is there a motion?
Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve staff's recommendation.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there a second?
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Second.
Mayor Furlong: Made and seconded. Any discussion on the motion?
Resolution #2007-45: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilwoman Tjornhom seconded
that the City Council approves a six outlot subdivision (preliminary and final plat), plans
prepared by SRF Consulting Group, Inc., dated 5/24/07, subject to the following
conditions:
1. Outlots A and E should be deeded to the City or entirely encumbered by drainage and
utility easements granted to the City in order to accommodate future stormwater
improvements. At a minimum, all property below the 914 contour should be reserved for
future stormwater improvements.
2. Provide the City with a set of as-built drawings of the road.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
1(b). APPROVAL OF AMENDMENTS TO CHAPTER 20 OF CITY CODE
CONCERNING ZONING PERMITS, FAÇADE TRANSPARENCY, ACCESS
AND DRIVEWAYS, AND INDUSTRIAL OFFICE PARK SIGNS.
Councilwoman Ernst: As I read through this, particularly in Section 1. Page 51. Section 2 at the
bottom of page 51, and Section 3. I actually have 3 different scenarios that I'd like to express
some concerns. Do you want me to separate those as I'm talking to them or talk to them all
together? Because they are consolidated so.
Mayor Furlong: Are they all similar issue or?
Councilwoman Ernst: Yeah they are.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Why don't we talk about the main issue and then we can see how that.
Councilwoman Ernst: Well as I read through this it really feels like we're creating more
regulations where we really don't need to be creating more restrictive regulations. And for
example when we're talking about having to get a permit for, in Section 1, play houses and
fences under 6 feet high. I mean what we're doing today is working and I don't understand why
10
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
we're asking residents to get a permit to put a playhouse in their back yard or a fence that's lower
than 6 feet high.
Kate Aanenson: What this is is a zoning permit so what we ask you to do then, there's no fee
with the zoning permit. That's just a check with our office to make sure you're not in a utility
easement. That you know we've had play structures that we've had to remove that are in, so it's
really just a check in. We spent a lot of time over the last couple years is how do we rectify
these on the front end so it's really about a communication issue. And then this is one of those
things we always try to put in a newsletter and stuff. That you call us first before you put up that
little picket fence that might be in Paul's water line area. So there's no fee required. It's a zoning
permit which means you just check with the city to make sure that you're not violating a setback
requirement because sometimes we have play structures, whether it's a swing set that the
neighbors don't enjoy. There are kids swinging onto their property. That's a frequent thing so
it's really just an opportunity for us to talk to the residents and advise them that you know you
may want to think about where you're setting this. Check your easement so there's no fee. It's
just a communication issue. If there is any other things that go with it, for example people
frequently put in for example like a dog run where the concrete is, so we just advise them that
that may be an issue in the future if we have to get in there for an encroachment agreement or
something like that so there's no fee. It's just a communication issue.
Councilwoman Ernst: Well I'm not so concerned about the fee. I'm more concerned about we're
asking them to come forward to get a, I mean to get permission to do it whereas today we're not
doing that right?
Kate Aanenson: Yes we do today. We just added a few things that we didn't have on the list just
to clarify.
Councilwoman Ernst: So they have to get permission to put a play house in the back of their
yard but they don't necessarily have to get a permit.
Kate Aanenson: Our ordinance regulates all accessory structures so, and they have to meet
certain setbacks so whether if you put a storage shed is another frequent one that somebody just
goes to Menard's. They pick up, they install. They don't check what the setbacks are and
Monday morning after it goes up we get the call, it's too close on my property line. It's ugly.
Don't like it. So that's why we say, we always say have you talked to your neighbors? Do you
know what the setbacks are? So really we're trying to build goodwill so you don't have to come
back and ask for a variance and do that kind of process so that's really what it's about. It's
intended to be a positive interaction. Not to be a negative or a burden. So we just always ask
people to try to contact us so we can make sure they meet the setback requirements. We think of
a simple swing set but a lot of people today do those large play structures and that, some people
don't enjoy those right on the property line and that's just a communication thing.
Councilman Litsey: Yeah I did a small shed recently and I thought the process worked well
through the city and I checked with my neighbors and stuff too. It helped me because I had to
get a map and look to make sure I did put it in the right place. I thought it was a helpful process.
11
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Kate Aanenson: That's what it's intended to be.
Councilman Litsey: Yeah it is.
Councilwoman Ernst: So you're not putting the regulation that really isn't there today.
Kate Aanenson: Well there is a regulation already in place. The setback. The zoning permit is
an opportunity for us like let's say somebody's going to put a storage shed and they decided you
know what I'm going to put a 20 by 20 slab underneath that as long as I've got the play structure
then so it's just an opportunity for us to say remember these other regulations that go with it. To
get an understanding again so we know what they're doing and they know what they can do
within the ordinance. It's just a check in with that.
Councilwoman Ernst: So can you explain to me what happens if they don't do that. Say for
example you've told them what they need to do okay and they go ahead and they do what they
intended to do in the first place. Is there a fee for that or how is that?
Kate Aanenson: That's generally where we send a letter that say they're in violation. We go
through a process and typically you give them so much time. There's a format for that and
ultimately if we can't get compliance then they end up in citation or in the attorney's office. And
typically those are ones that.
Mayor Furlong: If they're in violation.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Furlong: Yeah, if they follow, if they go through the zoning permit process and receive
approval to put whatever they want to put in in a spot and they do it, it's done.
Kate Aanenson: But her question was if they ask us and they didn't do it. Most people that call
us are the people that want to do the right thing and we want them to do the right thing. We want
to help educate them and be a good neighbor because a lot of this builds up a good neighbor and
that's so important in the community that we get along and we don't build up those…with our
neighbors regarding how we operate. Whether it's the dog, they've got the dog run too close to
the property line. The swimming pool that's too close and they're screaming all the time so we
just try to think about, you know when water's splashing and going into neighbors they might not
appreciate it so we just try to get them to think about those things. Could you maybe move the
pool a little bit this way? Do you think that you could, you know those sort of things and that's
what we try to work with based on our experience to try to make it a positive experience so the
neighbors understand that.
Councilwoman Ernst: And I understand that and I think that that's good that we're doing that but
I'm just trying to understand why we're putting a more restrictive regulation on it or is it a
regulation that we have today and we're just not enforcing it?
12
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Kate Aanenson: It is a regulation we have today. What we're trying to do is to communicate
that regulation because what happens is, they come to you and ask for a variance and say, I never
knew it was a regulation. We were asked by the Planning Commission and the City Council to
put this in place. That we would provide that opportunity to visit with them so they don't ask for
a variance. It's really to prevent those cases where it says I never knew I couldn't do that. I
couldn't put my storage shed right up against the property line. I never, but did you read the
zoning ordinance? Well I don't need to read the zoning ordinance. I mean this is my property so
that's why we put that in place. It gives them an opportunity to contact us and explain any other
issues. Because some people have drainage swales in their back yards and they don't even know
it so those are the things we try to, we sit down with them and try to make it a real positive
experience.
Todd Gerhardt: Kate, the three items that we're adding currently aren't on the permit list.
Kate Aanenson: That's correct.
Todd Gerhardt: And right now there's an ordinance out there that regulates where they can be
but it doesn't call for them to get the permit so we do have a list of other things on there that you
do need a permit and the fence and the accessory building are excluded from that and what we're
trying to do is tell people if you're going to put in an accessory structure and a fence up, you need
to come in and get a permit to make sure it's in the right area and the right setback. That's all
we're doing.
Councilwoman Ernst: So it's in the ordinance and we're just in addition asking them to get a
permit.
Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, it's a preventative measure because some people you know take it upon
themselves to put their accessory building maybe in a side yard or something like that and they
go to great lengths to make it look nice. To match the house and landscape it and then after the
fact they're going to have to move it and that's where you know you create a lot of ill will
between neighbors and the person that put a lot of time and effort in and they may think it looks
nice but a neighbor may not. And you know they did a great job or whatever, they're going to
have to move it and so the permitting allows us to educate and to make sure that a lot of time
and energy isn't wasted that they have to do it all over again.
Roger Knutson: Mayor, what it really does, it seems to me is it tries to prevents problems from
occurring. It gives the neighbors, the property owners a heads up because it's great if you tell
someone, oops, you can't put it there but if it's already there and the concrete slab's in, then you
have a major problem because it costs a lot of money to move it at that point. So you want to,
this is really just a head's up to the neighbors, there's a rule here. You've got to move it so we
don't have to deal with the bigger issue if it's already built which is much more serious to deal
with.
Mayor Furlong: Yeah, it helps people comply with existing ordinances by knowing up front
whether what they want to do fits into our existing ordinances in terms of setbacks or impervious
surface coverage. Rules that are already in place. The zoning permit process is really, as I see
13
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
it, it's a review or a verification of what the property owner wants to do fits into our existing
ordinances.
Councilwoman Ernst: And I'm okay with the fact that it's in our ordinance. I'm just, I'm
struggling with the fact that they have to get a permit to put a playhouse in their back yard.
Mayor Furlong: Well I think one of the things that came up and I know, I heard the Planning
Commission struggled with this, and I know at the council we had residents come forward that
put in a Sport Court or put in an accessory structure of some sort and it's in and suddenly they've
exceeded our impervious surface coverage or they have, they've got it too close to the property
line. It's in the setback area but it's already in so now they're coming for an after the fact
variance. As Mr. Knutson said, a very tough situation. And many times they'd say if I had
known before I wouldn't have done it here you know, and it's those that we're trying to catch to
help the education because most residents don't read the ordinance before they put in, you know
they put in a play set or those sorts of things.
Roger Knutson: You know one kind of tragic situation in another community that comes to
mind is someone put in just a tremendously nice Sport Court. Spent a lot of money. You know
10, 20, 30,000 dollars but they didn't realize it was in a drainage easement and we had to come in
and put in a storm water pond and I had the unfortunate position, I had to tell them that and they
were not happy at all. And they were saying, we didn't need a permit from this. How are we
supposed to know this? Well it's all of record and it's hard to know I guess but they didn't need
a permit. It's one of the first things they said you know, so we just went ahead and did it. That's
true and it's unfortunate. Now you're going to lose your $30,000 investment. That's what
happened.
Mayor Furlong: The other thing is, you mentioned the word permit and I.
Kate Aanenson: We struggled with that.
Mayor Furlong: And I understand people calling and saying do I need a permit to do this. And
it may not be, a building permit may not be required, but do I need a building permit to do this.
So the answer might be no, but to that point a zoning permit, or what we call it a zoning permit is
the ability to say yeah, there's a pulled permit. We've got, there should be a review process up
front to make sure it is in compliance with other ordinances. Not just building code ordinances.
Kate Aanenson: And actually if I can just add to that, the positive experience, it gives us an
opportunity to visit with people. You know you can talk about if they're doing other things or
help down the road, to think ahead. If you put this here and if you ever want to do a porch or
how is that going to affect your lot so we really help people try to think ahead so just as the city
attorney said, so we don't have those problems down the road. To think about what are the
implications of this decision today if I ever wanted to add on and we try to help people think
through that. And any other questions they have about the city. It's an opportunity for them,
they can do it over the phone you know or come in and meet with us and just to tell them kind of
what issues they have in the neighborhood so it's, we try to make it very positive.
14
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Councilwoman Ernst: So as a, how many situations do we have on an annual basis where people
are putting play houses and fences in a place where they shouldn't be putting them?
Kate Aanenson: There's probably a lot of them that we don't know about that never call. And
we'll find out, as the city attorney said, when they say they didn't get a permit so the goal is to
continue, just like we do with some of our water resources things, is to try to educate. We're
moving towards education. That's one of the things we always put in the newsletter. It's our
number one thing that we talk about in planning is educating our residents about the regulations.
It's really an education tool too, and as the city attorney said, the permit issue came up, I don't
need a permit. We use the same nomenclature so people know, no you don't need to pay for a
building permit but we have a zoning permit we want to talk to you about what the implications
of that are. We haven't had, to my knowledge, someone said that's ridiculous you know. They
appreciate that we take the time to help them. To make sure they've got it right and, oh I didn't
know I had a drainage easement back there. I didn't know there was an active, you know some
people have an anomaly on their site they didn't even know so I think for the most part it's a
pretty positive experience.
Mayor Furlong: And I'll just add personal comment and as Mr. Litsey said he did it. We just
added a patio in our property and it was a very easy process to go through the zoning permit. I
realize now I didn't have to for the patio but regardless, to know that up front, we had the
landscapers scheduled to come in a couple days but to know up front that we weren't going to
have an issue with impervious surface coverage was just a comfort. You know it didn't change
our plan at all, and I thought we were okay with it, but to have somebody review it you know
that can read a survey better than I, and do the calculation and know that what we had planned to
do will fit just fine within our zoning ordinances. You know the last thing I want to do, or
anyone wants to do is come up here and ask for forgiveness. An after the fact variance.
Kate Aanenson: You just brought up a point I want to add to. That's one we try to get in and out
the same day and someone calls on that question, that's a one day call that we try to take care of
right away and so people can, if they're at, looking at a storage shed and you know they call in.
Do I need it? You'd better check with your city. You're at the home improvement store and
you'd better check with your city and they call in. We try to get those answers out to them within
that day you know. Someone might not be available right at that moment but that's something
we want to get back to them right away on so that's our commitment to provide that information.
Councilwoman Ernst: In Section 2 with the façade, something seems somewhat relative here
and I'm wondering what you're considering to be the public view.
Kate Aanenson: If you remember this came up with we looked at the Arboretum Business Park.
The Planning Commission spent a little bit more time on reconciling that in an additional go
around. If you remember we did that Mamac building that came in. There was, we added on. I
think was that the building we added on to? In.
Todd Gerhardt: Great Plains, or.
15
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Kate Aanenson: Arboretum Business Park. So that's what started this discussion. So we did an
addition to it and we penalized them for the fenestration because the standard had changed. So
this is actually to give some relief so we didn't have that same, so they weren't penalized for
existing development standards. So when we say a view from a public street, if it's not on a
public street it doesn't have the same requirements for transparency. So we try to put relief, this
was to build relief in the ordinance for what we have today.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: So you're trying to break it up.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, we're also making it less restrictive. If your side on public view, you
don't have to meet that.
Councilwoman Ernst: But today they have to come in and get their site plans approved, right?
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Councilwoman Ernst: And the whole architectural piece as well as the landscaping.
Landscaping helps break something like that up.
Kate Aanenson: That's correct.
Councilwoman Ernst: So why would we ask them to put windows in?
Kate Aanenson: That's in the ordinance today. What this ordinance does is give you some relief
from that. When we're doing an addition that has a different standard, the addition won’t have to
make it up, make it whole by putting all the windows in this addition to make it whole so we're
recognizing that there's some situations that doesn't make sense to put that much fenestration in.
So it's actually giving relief to the ordinance. And that was directed by the council when we
looked at that building to come back, or we told you we were looking at that because we say that
inherent, and the Planning Commission took two go around's with that to try to get the right
language.
Todd Gerhardt: Didn't we give them a variance for the.
Kate Aanenson: That's correct.
Todd Gerhardt: For not putting the window in so.
Kate Aanenson: That's correct.
Todd Gerhardt: This is to give you the flexibility not to have to grant a variance for the site plan.
Kate Aanenson: That's correct.
Todd Gerhardt: And it was Greatland America.
16
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Kate Aanenson: That's what it was. It was in the same park.
Todd Gerhardt: Yeah. Just behind the water reservoir. Up from Lifetime Fitness. And if I
remember right, this was one of their warehouse areas and they didn't want a window in their
warehouse. So as a part of the site plan approval we had to grant a variance to allow that to
happen.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, so that was the existing. Same park but yeah. Yeah. So it's actually
giving more flexibility.
Councilwoman Ernst: It just feels to me like we're asking someone to pay additional costs where
they really don't need to and breaking it up with landscaping and architectural just feels like the
better solution to me. On Section 3, we're talking about accessing driveways at a 90 degree
angle.
Kate Aanenson: That's the goal.
Councilwoman Ernst: …how you can't access.
Kate Aanenson: That's the goal. Right now it's, we did an amendment to the code that there's a
glitch we found out when someone came in for a 4 car garage and unfortunately I guess I didn't
catch it the first time too. We had 32 foot wide maximum for a driveway and it's in conflict with
what we have for a goal for the city that people park their boats and their RV's on the side of the
garage. So if you have a 3 car and you want to park your boat, you can't make enough driveway
space so that's wrong. That's what this is fixing. And we also stated in there that if you didn't,
some people just like to have gravel where they store a trailer. Whether it be a snowmobile or
something, or a boat, which is what we want to have it parked on the side, it doesn't have to be
paved. So there's two things in this. One, it increases the 50 foot width so people that would
have a 4 car and then wanted to do that, and then it doesn't, it allows you not to have to pave that
part because otherwise our ordinance, so the part you're looking at, the other part of the
regulation, that's already in there already. It's just the entire section. So these aren't all additions.
Those are just the modifications of it. That we made on this section of the code so. It's already
90, if you went to the city code right now that's what it says for access to. It says it has to be
paved. It has to be approximately at a 90 foot angle, right. So if you look at a cul-de-sac that's
what, so that part's not new.
Mayor Furlong: So is it item (i), is that the new. Of 20-1122. That's what you're referring to?
Kate Aanenson: (Yes).
Mayor Furlong: Is there somewhere in the code that defines what an accessory driveway is as
opposed to the yard?
Kate Aanenson: I don't have mind in front of me. I kind of doubt it but we can look at that.
Accessory is defined for like storage area.
17
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Mayor Furlong: Well I know we've received some calls, especially during the winter months,
where people store their vehicles in their yard or on the side of the garage and grass.
Kate Aanenson: Right. And this does allow you to park on the side of your garage. It's if you're
parking permanently in your grass in the front. There's no storage. You take that invisible line
of your front property and that's where everything's supposed to be behind that. You can even
park behind your house which every once in a while we have some people do that but.
Todd Gerhardt: I think we define what your front yard is so, and I think the ordinance says you
can't park vehicles or equipment in your front yard so I don't think we need to define the side
yard. Or accessory driveway.
Mayor Furlong: Well I think one of the changes here is that the accessory driveway, and I'm not
sure if that's defined. …to parking vehicles and such as that…this would allow that on grass.
And I know we've had questions in the past of people parking cars, and putting cars on the grass.
Kate Aanenson: Right, but as the city manager indicated, that you still can't park in your front
yard. So if you had concrete pavers and wanted to park on your side yard, that's fine and
sometimes we do have people in the summer months that just use that temporarily for their boat
and then they don't, they store it somewhere else for the winter. So we're saying you don't have
to pave it if you're going to just temporarily use it for that period of time. As long as it's defined
by your setback.
Mayor Furlong: So this is again, from more of a relief…
Kate Aanenson: That's the intent. It's too onerous right now and we want people to park their
stuff on the side so this is intended to give relief and the 32 foot wide doesn't meet some of the
requirements we have now. Some have the 3 car and then storage so.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Councilwoman Ernst: Well, just based on the information I heard today I really can't support
this piece of it because it feels like we already have our ordinances in place and I don't, I'm not
understanding why we need to create another regulation to say you need a permit. I understand
the communication fees and based on our ordinance I mean, citizens have the responsibility to
read our rules and if they have a question about where to put a play house and where to put a
fence, they should be calling city hall to find out that, am I putting this in the right location. Am
I building this correctly. I mean that is a citizen's responsibility and I don't think that we need to
create another regulation to force them to do that. That's what I think.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Okay, any other questions for staff? On this item. 1(b). Any
discussion? Further discussion. Is there a motion?
Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve.
Mayor Furlong: Is there a second?
18
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Councilman Litsey: I'll second.
Mayor Furlong: Seconded. Any discussion on the motion?
Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Litsey seconded to approve the amendments to
Chapter 20 of City Code concerning Zoning Permits, Façade Transparency, Access and
Driveways, and Industrial Office Park Signs. All voted in favor, except Councilwoman
Ernst who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1.
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
Councilwoman Ernst: I would like to say what a great job Todd and his staff did with the
th
Chanhassen parade and all the events that happened on the 4 of July. It was great. Everybody
had a great time, even in the pouring down rain so it was a very, it was a great event and I
wanted to thank city staff, you and city staff for everything that you put into that because I know
it took a lot of work and was a great hit.
Todd Gerhardt: Yeah it was a great event. The Rotary also plays a big role in organizing the
parade and the beer gardens and a lot of other activities to really make this a special 2 day event.
And Todd Hoffman and his entire staff, all city employees that participated. Not just park and
rec but everybody you know pitches in from one way or another to make it a real special event.
And I think the rain even helped to cool things down so, the band was great again. Just a lot of
positive comments. Having the carnival this year really expanded the event. Provided more
opportunities for the kids and families to create more memories and food vendors they were a
little bit more spread out. I think those were really the keys to the success this year. And just a
nice variety and utilizing all the school property. You know they continue to let us do that and
that's nice and it's cooperation with everybody and collaboration and it made it a great 2 days.
Mayor Furlong: Yeah I will concur. I think the, you know there are too many organizations to
recognize them all. The Chamber of Commerce of course puts on the business fair as one of the
kick off events and there are a number of other organizations, participating organizations. A lot
of local businesses get involved. Boy Scout troops get involved and it's just, it really as I look at
it, it really creates that small town feel and it brings friends and neighbors together and is, on
rd
both days. Both on the 3 and on the morning before the parade. During the parade itself.
Fireworks in the evening. I mean it's a wonderful 2 day event that everybody's pretty worn out
by the end of the 2 days but it's a good worn out because it's.
Councilwoman Ernst: Especially the people that pushed the car.
Mayor Furlong: And unfortunately we had video of that so, but it does bring people together and
I agree with you Councilwoman Ernst and Mr. Gerhardt, there's a lot of thanks and appreciation
for a lot of the groups. City, county employees. The county was here. The firemen. Yeah, so
it's gratitude and appreciation to all because it's really a great event. Great event.
19
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Todd Gerhardt: Yeah I think the key thing was it was a safe event too. One little incident I think
we had in the entire night and that's not anything to really speak of. It's kind of funny but
somebody got stuck with a dart and they pulled it out and she was fine. And it's say watch out
for those balloons, they can bounce off there but it was a safe, real safe event. Minimal
incidents. Even after the event law enforcement did traffic control and that was pretty much
their key role in it and everybody was on their best behavior.
Mayor Furlong: We had a great presence from the Carver County Sheriff's Department,
rd
especially on the 3 . The day of the parade as well. I think it added to everyone's enjoyment.
Thank you for bringing that up. Other thoughts or comments from council members.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
Todd Gerhardt: The only other item I have is Family Circle Magazine recognized the city of
Chanhassen as one of the top ten places to raise a family. We had some banners displaying that
th
in the parade on one of our fire trucks and July 10 is the Family Magazine, Family Circle
Magazine comes out. There's a little article there on Chanhassen and I think they interviewed
previous council member Brian Lundquist and his wife on what they appreciate about
Chanhassen and raising their family here so I thought that was nice that they interviewed a local
resident in that article. I think we pointed out well in their surveys with being a safe community.
A growing community and one of you know, a great place just to raise a family. And if you
compare some of the other cities, I think we really stood out there. But they didn't rank it 1
through 10. Everybody was lumped in the 10 but it's nice to get those recognition and the
Chamber will probably be playing that up as a marketing tool as people look to locate here.
They seem to go to the Chamber a little bit more than they did City Hall. We also put it on our
web site and it's always nice to get those little recognitions. And that's all I have.
Mayor Furlong: Good, thank you. Any questions for Mr. Gerhardt?
Councilman Peterson: I've got one for Paul. What's Mr. Chiglo from MnDot saying of the 212
to either 101 to Powers. Are they going to open it up or are they going to wait? I assume they're
not going to wait til 41.
Paul Oehme: The Powers Boulevard and 101 access? Okay that, they will be opening Powers
north of 212 and 101, both accesses north and south of 212 this fall. The intent right now is to
open all those accesses at one time in conjunction with 41 so.
Councilman Peterson: Really, all of them at once?
Paul Oehme: All of them. All of them. Yep, so I have not heard about a staging plan for
opening those accesses at different times. The intent was, and it still is, to open all of them at
once this fall.
Councilman Peterson: That's interesting isn't it? Doesn't that surprise you a little bit or not?
20
City Council Meeting - July 9, 2007
Paul Oehme: Well from a traffic standpoint, since Powers Boulevard won't be opened up north
of 212, only that south leg is still being worked on and won't be open til 2008. If we open up
Powers Boulevard to that point we would anticipate some problems at the intersection of Lyman
Boulevard and Powers Boulevard just because that would be the farthest point west. So we're
open, staff at city hall is a little bit concerned about opening that up any time sooner than 41.
Councilman Peterson: And 101 is similar because of.
Paul Oehme: Yeah, and similar. Yeah again I haven't heard that MnDot would want to open
that up any sooner than any other intersections or interchanges.
Councilman Peterson: Good. Thanks.
Mayor Furlong: Any other questions for staff?
CORRESPONDENCE DISCUSSION.
Mayor Furlong: Any discussion on the correspondence?
Councilman Litsey: I just had one comment to make about the open book process. I mean it just
seemed like it went really well, from what I read and all the surveys came back positive that I
could see and I just was pleased. I know it was a point of discussion for a while so it looks like it
was the right direction to go.
Mayor Furlong: Good, thank you. Anything else? Good, if there's nothing else to come before
the council this evening, is there a motion to adjourn?
Councilwoman Ernst moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to adjourn the meeting. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. The City Council
meeting was adjourned at 8:00 p.m..
Submitted by Todd Gerhardt
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
21