CC 2007 06 11CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
JUNE 11, 2007
Mayor Furlong called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. The meeting was opened with the
Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mayor Furlong, Councilman Litsey, Councilwoman
Ernst, Councilwoman Tjornhom, and Councilman Peterson
STAFF PRESENT:
Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Laurie Hokkanen, Kate Aanenson, Paul
Oehme, and Jerry Ruegemer
PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS:
Mark Undestad Planning Commission
Forrest Adams Chanhassen Villager
Rick Dorsey 1551 Lyman Boulevard
Jeff Fox 5270 Howards Point Road
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
None.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilwoman Ernst moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to
approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendations:
a. Approval of Minutes:
-City Council Work Session Minutes dated May 29, 2007
-City Council Verbatim and Summary Minutes dated May 29, 2007
Receive Commission Minutes:
-Planning Commission Verbatim and Summary Minutes dated May 15, 2007
-Park and Recreation Commission Verbatim and Summary Minutes dated May 22, 2007
b. Approval of Private Fireworks Display Permit, Lake Minnewashta Fireworks Committee,
July 4.
Resolution #2007-35:
c. Renewal of Gambling Permit, Chanhassen American Legion Post
580, 290 Lake Drive East.
Resolution #2007-35A:
d. SouthWest Village, Final Plat Approval.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
John Getsch: My name is John Getsch. I have property on Dogwood Road.
Mayor Furlong: Is this relating to the assessment hearing?
John Getsch: No, this is more related to the whole project.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Why don't we take it up when we get to that item on the agenda, if that's
okay.
John Getsch: Okay.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you Mr. Getsch. Anyone else from visitor presentation?
Steve Donen: Steve Donen, 7341 Frontier Trail. Just to let you guys know, we had a nice
discussion last week with the Watershed District. Discussing with them the opportunities to help
improve Lotus Lake with a whole series of projects with them. The UAA review that they put
together. The work in the NP that you guys have all done the last few years and put it all
together and we gave a presentation on how they could help to fix up Lotus Lake and they're
very receptive to it and just wanted to let you know that we are working hard…
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Anyone else for visitor presentations? We've got a presentation
this evening from members of our Park and Recreation staff and also Chanhassen Rotary
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regarding upcoming activities and festivities I should say relating to the July 3 and July 4
activities, so at this point I'd like to invite Mr. Ruegemer, Jerry Ruegemer from our Park and Rec
Department to come forward.
Jerry Ruegemer: Good evening Mayor Furlong and the rest of the council. Thank you for
having me here tonight. Just wanted to go through and kind of give the council a brief update as
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to kind of where we're at as far as our 3 and 4 of July celebration. I've been working hard on
getting all those details kind of put together for the event. Every day there's something new with
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that. Just to highlight some new things that are coming up, and this is our 24 year this year, so
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what we're trying to do is kind of try some new things this year with anticipation of our 25
anniversary next year. Bringing in the carnival or the midway is a new thing that we're going to
try this year. It's, I think it will be very well received from our community and public. We're
going to have a variety of rides with that. We're going to try to do some unlimited ride wrist
bands for that. Midwest Rides is going to be selling all the wrist bands and all the tickets so
that's something that we really don't have to worry about as a city. They'll just take a percentage
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for that as well so that will be 6:00 to 10:00 on the 3 itself and then on the 4 and the rest of the
time that the carnival's open, there'll be just pay per ride on those type of things and use their
tickets so we're very excited about that. We're open really extended hours for the carnival on the
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3 itself and also all day on Friday the 4. So really excited about that. Just really the theme
this year was increased capacity. We increased our tent sizes. We increased tables and chairs.
We increased a lot of different things involved with the event itself so we're very happy with
that. We added summer skateboard series and kind of what that is, it's an event that's going to
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
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happen at our Chanhassen Skate Park on July 3. It's kind of a Little League Series for
skateboarders so it's kind of a traveling, traveling kind of a series where you accumulate points at
all these different cities. We happen to be kind of a stop along the way. And then you
accumulate points for the Midwest melee. It's kind of their Super Bowl of skateboarding at the
tail end of the season so we're very excited actually to have that in town here so, and the Third
Lair who's going to be kind of the organizer of that area, we've done skateboarding camps out
here for a number of years with them so they're excited to be out here and to be a stop and show
something that we can add another component for our teenage demographic at the event itself so
very happy with that. A lot of the same components are back again. A lot of the popular ones.
We're going to be meeting tomorrow with the parade members. Jeff and Mark will be there
tomorrow along with representatives from Carver County, from the City. We're going to go
through all the information in regards to the parade and make sure that we're on task with that.
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We'll also talk about security type of things along with July 3 as it relates to many of the
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components for the 3 of July celebration as well so everything is progressing nicely with that.
We have parade kind of a notification letter for all the residents along the parade route.
Residents and business owners along the parade route just to let people kind of know what the
route is going to be, and then kind of what time. All the roads along Frontier Trail and all that
area, we'll still have through traffic areas through the parade route itself. People can still
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navigate through town. We won't be closing everything north of West 80 Street out so people
can still kind of go through town so that's all set to go. The letters are in their envelopes, all
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ready to go and ready to be mailed out on July, excuse me, June 20. That'd be a little late for
July. So really we're all kind of progressing as scheduled up to this point. We did hire
somebody for Nate Rosa's position so I'm really happy about that and so the new person will be
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here June 25 so they'll be kind of a shadow, my shadow for the 3 and the 4 so we're in great
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shape at this point. I'll introduce Jeff Anderson. He's the overall Rotary Chair for the 4 of July
and also for the parade. So he's going to kind of go through and go through the power point
presentation with that and if anybody has any questions, I certainly can answer those now or later
if you like.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Good.
Jeff Anderson: Thanks Jerry. Good evening Mayor Furlong and council. I appreciate, just
wanted to give you on behalf of the Chanhassen Rotary and Chanhassen Rotary Foundation,
thank you so much for your time this evening. I'd also like to extend a special thank you to the
City of Chanhassen, the Parks and Rec Department and the Public Works Department for their
help in putting this parade on. Also the Carver County Sheriff's Department for their hard work
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come the 3 and 4 celebration as well. This year's theme of the parade is going to be Let
Freedom Ring. We kind of took a collective vote from the Chanhassen Rotary Club and that's
what we came up with. We're really excited about this year's logo and theme. It just kind of
brings the you know, the sentiment of the day. You know, let freedom ring. That's what
America is all about. We're going to be honoring individual groups, service organizations,
churches, neighborhood organizations, businesses. And then we're going to have a special
recognition for the Chanhassen Distinguished Citizen Award, Ladd Conrad. So he's going to be
the Grand Marshal of the parade this year, so we're going to honor him that way. Parade day
festivities, the Taste of Chanhassen's going to start from 11:00 to 2:00. We've got 15 restaurants
and vendors, and of course there's going to be the Rotary beer garden. Again we're going to have
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
the classic antique car show, and I know that's going to be, we're adding hot rods and antique
tractors as well, so there's going to be a lot of activity going on there. Among the highlights of
that, you can see the 1934 V Packard and the 1931 Model A Ford, and so come on out early. Get
your, mark your turf along the parade route and then come and enjoy the Taste of Chanhassen.
Something new we're going to do this year, oh this year Taste of Chanhassen, I'm sorry, let me
back up a little bit. Here's a list of the local vendors that are going to be participating in the
Taste of Chanhassen. And something new that we're going to do this year at the Taste of
Chanhassen is we're going to have a group called the Shadows of the West bring in actors and
what they do is, they go out and they re-enact different scenes from the Old West. You've got
you know the scene from OK Corral. I think that maybe Jesse James up on the horse up there.
But it's pretty exciting. They're also going to be, we hired them to run around at the Taste of
Chanhassen. So their show and then we're going to have them in the parade as well so, they are
going to have real guns firing off blanks. We had to get, we got the permit from the sheriff's
department so we're good there. Now onto the parade. The parade's going to start at 2:30 and at
the judge's stand at City Center Park. We're going to have the color guard and we're going to do
the National Anthem and we're going to, by popular demand we're going to have the T-6 flyover
again. That's always just kind of a nice somber moment for everybody. The highlights of this
year's parade are going to be, we're going to have 12 paid entertainment groups. There's going to
be bands, clowns, motorcycles, horses. The re-enactors again that I spoke about. We're going to
have the cars, the classic cars and the tractors are going to go through the parade again. There's
over 30 local businesses participating. Political, religious, government, neighborhoods and other
community groups. Some of the highlights, the Gopher State Railway is going to be back. The
Minnesota Equestrian Drill Team and of course the T-6 flyover. And again we'd like to, the
Chanhassen Rotary and the Chanhassen Rotary Foundation would like to thank the sponsors that
we have, the City of Chanhassen. Especially again the Park and Rec Department and the Public
Works Department. The Carver County Sheriff's Department. We've got a number of volunteers
and then of course there's the donors of the Chanhassen Rotary Foundation that make this
happen. So again here's kind of a recap of what the day's going to look like. From 11:00 a.m. to
2:00 p.m. the Taste of Chanhassen, the Classic Car Show at the City Center Park there. The
Klein Bank parking lot. Then at 2:30 is the parade. So for more information people can, you
know if they wanted information on sponsorship or maps and directions or volunteer
opportunities or parade line-up's, then go to chanhassenrotary.org and my name, Jeff Anderson
and cell phone and email address is right there. So again thank you so much for your time and
are there any questions?
Mayor Furlong: Any questions of Mr. Anderson?
Councilman Peterson: Did you order good weather?
Jeff Anderson: You know we have a pastor as part of the Rotary Club so he's been kind of the
one who is… Thank you.
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Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Good. That is the two days, July 3 and July 4 events. They
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begin you know during the day on the 3 and go through the fireworks on the evening of the 4
out at Lake Ann. Tens of thousands of people that are not only Chanhassen residents but from
outside the city come and participate. It's a great event and people have said it's a reason to stay
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
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in town. With the 4 being on a Wednesday, I'm thinking there'll be a lot of people in town and
so plan your trip so either you're back in time or wait to leave so you can be a part of it so thank
you to everyone involved in that. Anyone else for visitor presentations this evening? If not, let's
move on to the items on our agenda.
PUBLIC HEARING:
TANADOONA DRIVE/DOGWOOD ROAD RECONSTRUCTION PROJECT 06-06:
A. ASSESSMENT HEARING.
B. ACCEPT BIDS AND AWARD CONTRACT.
C. APPROVE EASEMENT AND RIGHT-OF-WAY ACQUISITIONS.
D. APPROVE CONSULTANT CONTRACT FOR FINAL DESIGN AND
CONSTRUCTION SERVICES.
Public Present:
Name Address
John Getsch 7460 Dogwood Road
Chadd Larson Kimley-Horn and Associates
Bruce Carlson 1440 Bavarian Shores Drive
Steve Mueller Westwood Community Church
Paul Oehme: Thank you Mayor, City Council members. Staff is requesting that the City
Council hold an assessment hearing tonight for the Dogwood/Tanadoona improvement project,
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City Project #06-06. Just a little background before I begin. This year on March 12 the City
Council held a public hearing for the improvements and they also approved the plans and
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specifications at that time for the project. On May 11 of this year bids for the project were
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opened and bids were tabulated and new assessment amounts were calculated. On June 6 we
also, we held another, staff held a neighborhood meeting to discuss the improvement project
again and the revised assessment amount. Again the final assessment amounts are based upon
the bids that have been received. For tonight's public hearing, any property owner wishing to
object to their assessment must file a signed objection or waive their rights to an appeal.
Objections after the public hearing are invalid. To date staff has not received any written
objections to the assessments prior to this meeting. Staff requests that the council hold a public
hearing tonight and one change in the agenda is that we request that the council table all the
approvals for tonight. The developer and the property owner have not closed on the property for
the new development, the Arbors development, and as such the development contract cannot be
signed at this time, and some other details have to be worked out prior to, prior to, or after the
closing but the developer's here tonight if you have any questions for him regarding that issue.
But we are hopeful that at the next council meeting we'll have all the documentation necessary to
have the council consider awarding a project and moving this project forward. But for tonight's
assessment hearing, 16 notices have been sent out for the, to the assessed property owners. Just
to review the project real quickly. Residents along Dogwood have petitioned the city for
extension of sewer and water along Dogwood Road and also improvements to the road itself and
Tanadoona. The road is, at Tanadoona and Dogwood is approximately 17 feet wide and it's
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
made out of crushed asphalt. Millings right now and it's very poor quality road. The proposal
for Dogwood and Tanadoona is to construct a 26 foot wide roadway along Tanadoona and
Dogwood, up to the development. The Arbors development is approximately right here. The
rest of Dogwood would be constructed to the city standard of 31 foot wide roadway width so.
The runoff from the development, I think I've got this backwards here. Okay. The runoff from
the development, the Arbors development would be treated in the pond located in the south
portion of the development, and all this runoff from the city project north of Dogwood and a
portion of Tanadoona would be directed to a future pond that staff is working on with the camp.
To acquire an easement for that area. All the homes in the project area are currently serviced by
wells. Three of the northern property owners along Dogwood are currently serviced by a sewer
system and a city maintained lift station and forcemain. The remaining parcels along Dogwood
are serviced by individual septic systems and most of the septic systems in this area are old and
some have begun to fail. The proposed utility improvements would provide services to the
proposed development, the Arbors development. Gravity sewer would be installed along
Dogwood and would be connected to the lift station at the southeast corner of Dogwood and
Tanadoona. The lift station is located here, and that lift station is proposed to be upgraded to it's
ultimate needs in this area for future capacity. The forcemain from the lift station would also,
the existing forcemain would be removed and replaced to service the new lift station as well and
the additional flows associated with that. Most property owners will need to be installing grinder
lift station, however because of the sewer along Dogwood cannot be put in low enough to
facilitate a gravity service, basically the low floor elevations for the properties along Lake
Minnewashta are set too low to service the gravity sewer system at this time. The assessments
that are proposed for this project will be levied against properties, benefiting properties in this
area. The proposed assessments again based on the construction or the bids that we received for
the project. The cost of improvements that are proposed to be assessed to benefiting property
owners of the development will be assessed 100% for their street improvement, the sewer and
the water, and the existing property owners also would be assessed the 100% for the
improvements to the sewer and the water associated with the project. But 40% of the roadway
improvements will be assessed back to the existing benefiting property owners, the existing
benefiting property owners and that's consistent with the current city policy, assessment policy.
The proposed assessments are on this sheet and the proposed assessments for, in the amount of
$18,654 are proposed for the property that do not have sewer and water at this time. The
assessments for the properties that have sewer but do not have the water are proposed at
$10,705.18 for those properties. The storm sewer along Dogwood and Tanadoona, that is
proposed to be 100% city cost. And again the assessment amounts, total assessment amount is
proposed at $9,480,279.41. Revolving assessment amounts, funds that the city has that's for
improvements, the city portion of the street improvement is $262,201.26 and the storm water
improvements associated with this project, cost to that would be $147,137.24. The assessment
roll that was included in your packet was slightly off unfortunately. I did hand out a revised
assessment roll, consistent with what was in the background in your, the staff background. So
that's the assessment roll that we would be considering tonight. And again the total project cost
for this project is $1,357,617.91. So at this time I stand for any questions that council might
have and request that a public hearing be opened at this time.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, any questions for Mr. Oehme. Just to clarify then what you're
recommending at this time is that we go forward with the hearing, the public hearing regarding
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
the proposed assessment, but we defer action on any of the items until likely the next meeting. Is
that correct?
Paul Oehme: That's correct.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. And the information that we're waiting on, the events, is it your opinion
that it's going to affect or change these assessments at all?
Paul Oehme: It will not.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Any other questions for staff at this point?
Councilman Litsey: I was just pleased that the bid amounts came in well under estimate. I'm
guessing that's a reflection of the market right now in terms of contractors needing work.
Paul Oehme: That's correct. It's very competitive.
Councilman Litsey: Yeah, that's great.
Mayor Furlong: Alright. At this point I will open up the public hearing and invite all interested
parties to come forward to the podium. Please state your name and address. Mr. Getsch this
would be the time.
John Getsch: Well I'll give her another try now.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, that's fine.
John Getsch: My name is John Getsch and I own property on Dogwood Road. I think it's 7460
is the number that's been assigned to it. I'd just like to comment on the superlative job that the
staff has done, the Planning Commission, the Council, the developer and the property owners.
All have worked together to make this happen. As you know this has bounced around for, I
think it's over 20 years now and trying to get something done out there has been sorely needed
all the way from the city finding out that it actually owns Dogwood Road, and has not been
doing anything to it for years, to I think one of the first proposals was an assessment of anywhere
between $85,000 and $104,000 a lot. This was 15 years ago so, to have something come in at
one-fifth that in today's dollars is just amazing, and also for it to be the best solution that's been
put forth for everybody involved. I think all the parties deserve a well done. And I just wanted
to bring that up and I know everybody has been, once we started working, the staff started
working on it, going to the Planning Commission, they did an excellent job of hearing
everybody's request. Taking into consideration and with the idea of how to make it work and
how to make it feasible so compliment to everybody involved.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you very much. We don't always get those comments and I appreciate
Mr. Getsch you bringing that forward because there are an awful lot of people besides those of us
that sit up here. They do a lot of work behind the scenes so, called the staff and commission
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
members and everybody, we appreciate their efforts. Anyone else that would like to speak at the
public hearing here regarding the proposed assessments?
Bill Eggert: I'm representing Westwood Community Church at 3121 Westwood Drive. One of
the new neighbors affected by the work that will be done on Tanadoona Drive and directly
abutting Dogwood is some of our property that will be acquired by easement. I just want to
equally support the comments that John made. Since our presence in the community in 2003,
there has been dialogue about the work on Tanadoona and on Dogwood as well and we have
found the City to be most cooperative. We think that Alyson and Paul have done an outstanding
job in all of the ground work in this, and working with all of the invested parties. Those in the
neighborhood and I think those who will be in the neighborhood in the future as the Arbors
development is built out and so as a neighbor, as a significant property owner in the area, we've
been very, very pleased with our relationship with the city and with the work that's been done in
getting this where it is today and looking towards the future of what it will look like so thank you
very much.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Anyone else who would like to speak at the public hearing this
evening regarding the proposed assessments? No? Again, as a reminder if there are any
objections, they need to be submitted in writing here before we close the public hearing which
will probably occur in just a minute. So I just want to make a final call for anyone to speak. If
no one is interested, is there a motion to close the public hearing?
Councilman Peterson moved, Councilwoman Ernst seconded to close the public hearing.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. The public
hearing was closed.
Mayor Furlong: At this point it's staff's recommendation that we table items 2(a), (b), (c) and (d)
until they're ready to be brought back.
Roger Knutson: Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Furlong: Oh yes.
Roger Knutson: Because of the nature of the hearing, I think it would be better if you tabled to a
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date certain. I think that's June 25?
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Councilman Peterson: June 25? Is that okay?
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Motion is made to table to June 25th. Motion has been
made. Is there a second?
Councilwoman Ernst: Second.
Councilman Peterson moved, Councilwoman Ernst seconded to table the bids, award of
contract, easement and right-of-way acquisitions, consultant contract for final design and
construction services for the Tanadoona Drive/Dogwood Road Reconstruction Project 06-
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
06 until June 25, 2007. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote
of 5 to 0.
LOTUS WOODS SUBDIVISION; LOCATED SOUTH OF FOX HILL DRIVE, EAST OF
CARVER BEACH ROAD, NORTH OF BIG WOODS DRIVE, AND WEST OF LOTUS
LAKE; APPLICANT, PAUL EIDSNESS: REQUEST TO SUBDIVIDE 7.6 ACRES INTO
11 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS AND 1 OUTLOT WITH A VARIANCE TO ALLOW A 50
FOOT WIDE STREET RIGHT-OF-WAY.
Public Present:
Name Address
Karen Lokkesmoe 581 Fox Hill Drive
Bob Amick 581 Fox Hill Drive
Mary Borns 7199 Frontier Trail
Steve Donen 7341 Frontier Trail
David Igel 501 Big Woods Boulevard
Paul Otto, Otto Associates 9 West Division Street, Buffalo
Kate Aanenson: Thank you Mayor and members of the City Council. This application before
you is to subdivide 7.6 acres into 11 single family lots and one outlot and it includes a variance
for a 50 foot wide street. The subject site itself is located on Lotus Lake, adjacent to Carver
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Beach Road. The Planning Commission held a public hearing on this item on May 15 and did
recommend 6 to 1 to approve the development. The property itself includes 4 underlying parcels
and it's staff, working with the property owners, it's always best and trying to do a lot, work
together with the property owners. This property at one time was one parcel. That was split off
last year so a portion of that parcel, into 3 property owners. So the applicant, the function that
they have is…is that they're neighbors and the layout of the property itself works out better as far
as…any extractions and just a better layout. In looking at the overall acreage, the density of 1.4
to 1.6 is in the density range, they're on the lower end that is allowed on residential single family.
Typically in a residential single family it's closer to 2 units for most. The plat itself as I
mentioned includes 11 lots. The larger lots are the existing homes which will remain adjacent to
the lake, and then the additional 8 lots adjacent to Carver Beach Road. The applicant's
requesting a variance to the 50 foot right-of-way. When we did the Big Woods subdivision, at
that time staff anticipated as we tried to…did provide a stub street. In working with the property
owners at that time and considering that they did keep their homesteads…to the west and coming
off of Carver Beach Road. So keeping with existing prevailing development patterns, street
widths, including Big Woods, the staff did recommend the variance for the 50 foot wide right-of-
way. All lots do meet the minimum lot area and depth. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on
the plat. The lot width itself, it does have the 60 foot box triangle which was an issue and I'll go
back, circle back to some of those comments. There is a wetland on the site. Outlot A. It's
heavily wooded around that wetland itself. There is no impact proposed for the wetland and I'll
talk a little bit more about the preservation of that itself. When this plat was platted it showed
additional foot and a half as you recall we recently changed our wetland buffer so the wetland it
will be reduced just a foot and a half to be consistent with the new wetland regulations. And that
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
would affect just for a little bit of the buffer on Outlot A. 8, excuse me. The lake itself, all the
lakeshore lots are in compliance with the lakeshore but there is one existing accessory structure
that's on the property that's in non-conformance but it's a legal non-conforming. Grading and
drainage. There was a lot of issues brought up on this at the Planning Commission regarding
where the drainage is flowing. I'll go through this briefly and if there's some more technical
questions, I'll ask it for the engineer. This is the existing property area and where it's draining to
right now. So a lot of the drainage right now is going into the lake. So with the proposed
development there will be a storm water pond that's taking up all of this. This is going into the
lake and this is going into the wetland, so actually improving the pre-treatment of the water in
this area by creating a storm water pond which is located on Lot 7… And the question that was
raised by the neighbors was the concern of the overall area, the pre-existing, it doesn't have a
storm water pond. This project itself is not increasing that portion of it. We're looking at a
larger pond in this area to treat that water and that's in the works right now but that's separate
from this project itself. There is a retaining wall, actually 3 retaining walls along the storm water
pond. Two on the north, one for the pond, and one on the south side of the pond. And there will
be easements around that…
Councilman Peterson: Kate, how close is that house going to be to that pond?
Kate Aanenson: That's the box itself. If you look at the plan of the house, that's a 60 by 60.
They showed house plans for all that. The storm water pond, it would be about 30 feet. If you
reduced it, if you went the entire length of that. The house coming out…this is the entire
buildable area. This is the 60 by 60 box…
Councilman Peterson: Okay.
Councilman Litsey: Kate, is that pond going in at the time of the development?
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Councilman Litsey: And water eventually will hook into, not to jump ahead of you, but that will
eventually hook into the improvements the city's going to be making down the road to the
drainage?
Kate Aanenson: You want to answer that?
Paul Oehme: Sure. We're designing that pond to facilitate future connection to the regional
pond in this area, if and when we can oversize the existing pond to handle the capacity for this
development.
Councilman Litsey: That's the pond across Carver Beach Road.
Paul Oehme: Right.
Councilman Litsey: Existing now and behind Big Horn Drive, in that area?
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
Kate Aanenson: Right. Did you want? Does that answer your question? There is an issue
regarding, there was, there is a berm along here. There was some additional runoff… This is
picking up their own water so it's not going to affect that part of it. There are utilities for the site.
Sewer and water, I'm not going to spend a lot of time going through that. I did talk about the
street variance. Again that would be a Fox Hill Drive and Carver Beach Road and Big Woods
and why we recommended the 50 feet, because that's the prevailing right-of-way that was
developed in that area. And the parks and trails, the park commission looked at this regarding,
there's not a lot of sidewalks and trails in that area. They didn't look at…additional sidewalks at
this time. They also felt that there was adequate parks in Carver Beach providing for that, but
park commission, as well as the park director felt strongly about preserving this Outlot A. So
when this plat originally came in there was a lot on there so through negotiation and meeting
with the park commission who visited the site and worked with the property owners, is acquiring
Outlot A and the calculation for the acquisition was…through the wetland itself. It's just the
upland and that's where the significant amount of trees were, but it's intended to be a preservation
area. So as part of the extraction, as far as taking land…buy that property. Excuse me, instead
of taking cash, they'll buy the property with that.
Mayor Furlong: And it's going to be that Outlot A will be dedicated to the city as a part of the
subdivision.
Kate Aanenson: Correct. It will be the property of the city. And at one time they were looking
at some improvements in the stormwater pond. In order to do that you'd actually omit some of
the trees so it's kind of a self defeating thing so in the end we decided just to accept the property.
On page 14 of the staff report, it's the compliance table of all the lots. Also you see the
maximum coverages so all the lots are in compliance. Modifications reflect the 60 by 60 square.
On the plans before did show house pads. I don't want to split hairs but there's a technicality in
the interpretation of whether it's a box or plan or a square but the builder did show plans. One of
the issues that was also brought up at the Planning Commission was architecture review on a
single family home. We don't do architectural review unless it's a planned unit development and
they have specific architectural control. We did do that on Big Woods and typically what we
know is value of the lot that's going to affect the home price so…half million, $750,000. So
what we included also in your packet under the findings for the subdivision and then also the
Findings of Fact for the variance. Then I did want to go back to the beginning of the staff report.
There were some other issues that were raised by the homeowners. I'm not going to go through
all them. They were detailed in the staff report. I'll just highlight a few, and if you do want me
to go back to the other ones, I'd be happy to do that. We did talk about concern about additional
runoff into Lotus Lake and the impacts to Lotus Lake itself. There was concern with discharge.
I believe that…specific questions on that again have been addressed through the engineer. There
were some questions on rain gardens and 90% of storm water, and they can't make those
numbers work, but certainly the fact that we did acquire, use the park extraction to acquire the
Outlot A says a lot about trying to preserve some of that. Then there's an issue on lot sizes.
Again it's on the lower end of the density, 1.4 to 4 units an acre. It's 1.2 to 4 is what we
require…1.6 acre which again is pretty large lots. And again there's one that's just slightly over
15…in excess of the minimum. The proposed road is directed toward an existing house. There
was a neighbor that did provide, if you're coming up this street where the car lights shine. If I
can have you zoom in on this, just this portion of it. Again so if you're coming…the car lights
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
shine in. And they would like to see the road realigned. We asked the engineers to do that. We
think that can be accommodated. One of the recommendations here…there is some significant
trees in this area. This lot is oversized. We think we can make that work without getting, this
would be the area…Outlot A and not have to make that lot bigger…then it's taking away from
the what we're trying to preserve. So I think we can have that accommodated. Again for the
record, between preliminary plat and final plat changes are made based on what you recommend
tonight so if it came back for final plat, this may be one of the changes and we would note that in
the minutes so it would change if that's your recommendation but we believe that can be
accommodated. Another question too about lighting. Additional street lights…engineering can
maybe make a couple comments on that. It is the policy to have street lights and we did put that
in that report and we did want to put the street lights in per policy.
Paul Oehme: Sure. Real quickly there are, staff has recommended that we install 2 street lights,
one at, the two street lights would be at the intersection of Fox Hill Road…and the Carver Beach
Road. At the intersection there. We typically we just put street lights in as needed basis at
intersections. This is like the intersections that we'd be using, you know traffic, public trying to
see where the streets are, those type of things. There are street lights at the corner of Big Woods
currently and Carver Beach and then also at the intersection of Big Woods.
Kate Aanenson: Right through here. Then the other question was regarding traffic, in the area.
Additional traffic in the area. Based on the size of homes, that may generate some other
services, that there'd be more trips.
th
Paul Oehme: Currently we did on June 4 we did take an active count out on Carver Beach
Road. There's about 300 trips per day on Carver Beach Road, between Fox Hill and the next
road…because they're both narrow, and 8 additional lots is…minimal impact. Additional trips in
this area so approximately 80 additional trips for…
Kate Aanenson: And then finally, the last comment I was going to address was the 60 by 60 pad.
We did show those on there. What was on the other one, as I said before, was approximately
location of the house. Again a house is generally not built in a square. But what the yellow
shows is additional buildable area. For example on Lot 8, I mentioned there was a wetland
buffer here so that's a…buildable area. For example there's an easement over the storm water
pond but there is additional…outside the 60 by 60 for a patio, those sort of things. So they do
meet all the requirements of the zoning district. So with that, the Planning Commission and staff
is recommending approval with the conditions in the staff report and I'd be happy to answer any
questions.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any questions for staff at this time?
Councilman Litsey: Kate, my concern has to do with the storm water pond. And it's capacity
and I'm just wondering if we're not putting this project, cart before the horse so to speak in terms
of, until that storm water pond is in place and what Kate you're saying is this is going to go into
the existing pond across the street. Across Carver Beach.
Kate Aanenson: No, it's not going to. No. This is the pond up here.
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
Councilman Litsey: Right.
Kate Aanenson: So that's where this water is going so actually if you compare it to where it was
going before, a lot of it was just sheet flowing into the lake and into the wetlands. There is a
berm here…reduce the amount of sheet flowing into the lake…
Councilman Litsey: But it makes, this is the plan though, to take some of that water out of that
storm water pond into that more natural pond across the street, then it would flow into there...and
then come down the ravine.
Kate Aanenson: It can in the future but this also can function independently of the two projects.
Councilman Litsey: So there's no chance that it's going to flow out and channel down the
road…?
Kate Aanenson: Do you want to address that?
Councilman Litsey: My concern is Lotus Lake's already got water quality issues and if that were
to occur, that's going to be pretty unfiltered water when you have an opportunity here to have
that water going to an existing pond first to be filtered.
Kate Aanenson: That's how it is right now. But we're sending it to a storm water pond. Right
now it's sheet flowing across untreated. So with this subdivision, what you're getting, the benefit
that you're getting is a storm water pond. That's what you.
Councilman Litsey: Now it's natural…you know this is going to be channeling, we'll changing
the whole make-up of it and what I'm concerned about is this development going in, and I'm not
against the development per se. I just think it's premature to approve this until that storm water
pond can connect with the existing pond across the street. If that were to take place, then I don't
think I'd have a problem with this, but I think that in my opinion we should hold off.
Kate Aanenson: Right, well, I'll let Paul.
Paul Oehme: To answer it real quick. The pond's been designed for this development. It's
designed like any other NURP pond that we put in in the community. It's designed for rate and
water quality control so by itself this pond will treat the development as it's proposed here
tonight. Again the outlet to the pond will be directed into, currently it's designed to direct into a
ditch along Carver Beach Road and then into the drainageway to Lotus Lake. And that area we
feel has the necessary capacity to handle the flows from this development. The issue, the over
sizing the regional pond in this area, you know would, you can get, it's nice, from a city
standpoint, a maintenance standpoint, it's nicer to put storm water into regional ponds for
maintenance purposes and for water quality purposes, but this pond and the drainage into the
proposed pond for the development meets all of our requirements for storm water quality and
rate control so. I don't know if that answers your question or not.
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
Councilman Litsey: Well it answers it but it just seems to make a lot more sense if we're looking
at protecting the water quality in Lotus Lake, which is already…why don't we everything
possible to try to filter the water as much as we can. We're got a regional pond right across the
street. The City's making improvements to it next year. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense…put
it in there and then go forward at that time. I mean have Jill and Lori looked at this for
environmental and water quality…what their recommendation, I don't know. You tell me I
guess.
Kate Aanenson: Well I think Paul just answered the question. How we have to look at it, what
our rules say is does it meet the requirements of the storm water, and it does. In a perfect world
and if we don't have that pond sized because that's a pre-existing condition that it's not being pre-
treated, so we have to go back and solve the bigger problem with a lot more study to find out
what size we need that. What if we get it to such a size it can't handle additional water on the
other side. We're hoping it can but those are all part of the study, so to tell this person to wait
until they may or may not be able to put their water in when they are managing their water. It
meets the requirement of the law, that's what we're saying, that if it meets the intent of the law,
that we would recommend approval because they are managing their storm water within the
regulations of the city.
Councilman Litsey: …disagree but I think there's a better solution and maybe you have to look
at the greater good there. I think for development, if they waited, that pond could handle it. The
regional pond, I think that would be…
Mayor Furlong: Let's continue with questions for staff at this point. If there are any others. If
not, is the applicant here this evening? Is there anything you'd like to address the council on? If
you'd like to introduce yourself…questions, either one.
Paul Otto: Good evening. I'm Paul Otto with Otto Associates and I'm representing the
applicants in this case. They are here as well if you want to talk to them. And I can clarify a
little bit on the pond, if you would like and somewhat on the design… We did work pretty hard
with the staff back and forth on where should the pond outlet. Those type of issues. We first
wanted to do this, what you're saying there, is incorporate it into the other pond. However, at
this time the pond does not have the capacity for our site so we looked at okay, well we're going
to have to do it internally. Obviously it takes away some of our area so that wasn't something
that we were real positive on doing but working with staff we came to the conclusion that a
storm water pond…to outlet across to the other storm water, and then across Carver Beach Road
into the ditch…that pond can handle the subdivision. I think it's in the city's best interest one, to
have this storm water pond there to begin with. It reduces some of the strain on that. It can be
piped into that other pond very easily, either through piping and/or re-grading so it was looked at
pretty in depth here. Staff about how to deal with this. I think you're getting to probably the best
scenario that we could for your storm water. I mean in a perfect world it might be a little better
to put it in the other one but we are treating it so, I don't know if you have any other questions
but I can answer those if there are any.
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
Councilman Litsey: Well I don't agree with the statement in a perfect world because I think we
have the opportunity…delay the project a little bit but it's in the best interest of the city to
preserve the…
Councilman Peterson: Just to clarify, you said that if it's determined that we can't fit it into that
other pond…now or?
Paul Oehme: Yeah, we preliminary looked at it from a staff perspective and there's wetland
issues out there. There's treed lots that would have to take place. There's a bunch of grading that
would have to take place. We haven't completely modeled the upstream watershed either so we
don't have a good feeling for exactly how much, how much we need to oversize that pond at this
time so there's quite a lot of if's out there in my perspective.
Councilman Peterson: So if we ultimately decide that it can fit in there…pump it in there?
Paul Oehme: No, you should be able to pipe it in there.
Paul Otto: Our storm water's coming across and we have a… I don't know all the particulars of
that pond so I can't say for sure who exactly you're getting into it, but just looking at some of the
elevations, it looks like it should be relatively, just piped, not pumped.
Paul Oehme: That does have piping proposed in it's development and we concur with that. The
outlet, the storm water pipes that are being proposed, they can easily be used in the future if we
want to direct movement, storm water into the existing pond.
Mayor Furlong: In terms of the, Ms. Aanenson talked about the possible realignment of the
road. Is that something that you think is doable without going back into Outlot A?
Paul Otto: Yeah, we have looked at that and we can, we've got something submitted on there. I
don't know if we can move it exactly as far as the resident proposed but we moved it as far as we
can...and stay within the 15,000 square feet.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, good. Any other questions for the applicant at this point? If not, okay.
Thank you very much Mr. Otto. There was a public hearing held at the Planning Commission.
We received copies of the notes. We have the verbatim comments made by interested parties at
the Planning Commission so I don't want to re-hash the public hearing but I don't know if there
have been changes to the plan here that, there's a desire for public comment by anyone. If there
is, I'd invite them to come forward at this time.
Mary Borns: I'm Mary Borns at 7199 Frontier Trail and I am a member of the Citizens Advisory
Council for the Riley-Purgatory-Bluff Creek Watershed District, as well as a board member of
the Lotus Lake Clean Water Organization. And in looking at this plan, I'm questioning if I was
subdividing it and wanted that pond to be most efficient, I would put it at the lowest…and have it
grab water from all of the lots, similar to what they did at Big Woods. Big Woods runs through
here and their pond, which has a fountain, is located approximately here so all the water is…to
the one pond. And it looks to me, and I think Kate, what Kate is saying is that all of this water
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
goes into the lake, as it has for years. So they're not improving and if they have a chance to
make improvements and they're not doing it, then these other lots runs through this way which
my memory, I'm not sure that this is the low gravity point for this number of lots. …higher than
down here and if there isn't a back-up plan available in the future for this, and it overflows, then
does it flood the houses adjacent to it or, I mean I assume that that would flow into the lake from
that pond one way or another if it's not vacant but if I was planning this, I would put the pond,
even though this is private property, I would put it in the lowest point so it… And let's see, my
second thing on here is, Bob Obermeyer from the Barr Engineering which has done some reports
for the district and for the city and he had commented that the district needs to approve if there's
over 1 acre of disturbed or altered land and so has this been approved by the watershed district?
Kate Aanenson: …they won't approve it until we get official…it is a condition of approval.
Mary Borns: Okay.
Mayor Furlong: So that's something that occurs between preliminary and final.
Kate Aanenson: Generally they will not approve it until…
Mary Borns: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: All properties, subdivision, that is a recommendation…
Mary Borns: So there's a copy at the watershed district?
Kate Aanenson: That's correct.
Mary Borns: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: …copy of distribution for all agencies…
Mary Borns: I know that the district is trying to make a positive effort with all the, with the
cities of Eden Prairie and Chanhassen which there are 12 lakes in the district are, between the
two cities and so I'm sure they'd be, it may have made more sense to look this over with them
before all the plans were drawn up but at any point it's good they'll be reviewing it so that was
one of my questions. And so does this meet the standard where Bob Obermeyer had said that the
rates of runoff need to be kept to the existing rates and…urban runoff standards for 2 inches of
rain.
Kate Aanenson: Yes it does… If you look at all the rates, all the…that's where they're draining
into the lake. So what we've done is reduce what's draining into the lake right now…so
everything in here is being treated. On these 8 lots and then what…
Mary Borns: Is it possible to put in a pond in one of these pre-existing homes?
Kate Aanenson: We haven't done…if someone wanted to do it…
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
Mary Borns: And is this by gravity, is this lower than the elevation is, this pond?
Kate Aanenson: All the water's going into this pond…
Mary Borns: And you've mentioned that they haven't done a SWM report. They haven't done
any modeling on the water, the amount of water and the direction that it will flow.
Paul Oehme: Well they've modeled the development itself. We have not completed our models
or the upstream model of the existing pond.
Mary Borns: Is it the SWM model or SWMP model?
Paul Oehme: Well we use the…CAD. There's several different models you can use for it.
Mary Borns: You use what?
Paul Oehme: Hydro CAD.
Mary Borns: Hydro CAD. Okay, because it seems like the SWM model is the most advance
software possible where they can.
Paul Oehme: Yeah, XP SWM is one model and the Hydro CAD's another model. They're both
approved.
Mary Borns: And so our concern is just that they do this up to these national standards because
we do, we are making major efforts to get Lotus Lake off the 303D list where we have a D rating
and so the Lotus Lake Clean Water Organization, we've been to numerous meetings and are
working with the watershed and have proposed a 10 year plan to try to clear up the lake and
we're just trying to make sure at the same time that we're not moving in the opposite direction
with other efforts throughout the city. And that's it. Thank you for your time.
Paul Oehme: One note of clarification too. We did, staff did look at putting a pond in the lower
lots, Lots 1 through 3. There's limited area to put a pond. The grades are somewhat significant
in this area and also the back yards of these lots are encumbered by sanitary sewer with a utility
easement through there so typically we try to avoid putting a pond over those type of utilities.
Kate Aanenson: Is that pretty…lots along the lakeshore there. Do you have that…
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Steve Donen: Steve Donen, 7341 Frontier Trail. Just a general comment about kind of a mass
balance, and maybe you can guys can help me with mass balances here. Just if you, for my
simple mass balance and I'll start out from the studies that have gone on, impervious surface is
when you go, do and develop land around lakes or watersheds the, before development occurred
there's a general rule about 90% of the water gets infiltrated into the ground and about 10% of it
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
goes into the watershed or into the lake. Okay, that's what generally happens if there were no
homes, no development, no cities around any sites. Okay. So with that said, they also have done
the study that showed once you do do development and you develop the watershed and you put
all the impervious surfaces in, that about 50% of the water now flows into these watersheds,
without being infiltrated into the ground. Okay. So even though you guys say there's less water
going into Lotus Lake, the only thing you've done is, you've created more area with less
pervious. You have done that. So more water has to go somewhere, okay. It doesn't get
infiltrated. It just has to, it's a fact. Okay. And it all does go into… It just goes a different
route. Okay.
Paul Oehme: Correct.
Steve Donen: Okay. The other thing is is that if you look at what's happened over the years to
like Riley Creek, Bluff Creek, the watershed district is going to spend millions of dollars to fix
those creeks up because as cities are developed, and you guys in Chanhassen's one of those cities
that affects that. Now the water that flows into those creeks now has gone up and it's gone up a
lot in the modeling, from the SWM models has shown it's even going to go up even more. Okay.
So my issue here is, I mean you guys are right. You've followed all the rules and the staff's done
a great job on this whole analysis. They really have. It's a lot of requirements on the developer
and I'm hoping that the developer follows them all and we do a nice job of inspecting to make
sure he does, but in the end this is either going to go into another creek or it's going to go into
this ditch I heard you say. That's the ditch right? Okay. Well that ditch is now going to take
some more water. Okay. It's going to take a lot more water. Okay. Going into that ditch. So
I…stand here fooling ourselves thinking there's no more water going into Lotus Lake. There is
more water going into Lotus Lake. It has to go there. There's only one place it can go to because
it can't go into the ground. Yes, it's going a different direction but it's going in, okay. So I'm
glad that we have this storm water pond out there. That's good and I'm glad to see it. I'm glad to
see we left our undeveloped area with the trees and stuff, that's really good too. And the water
that is going into the lake, directly into the lake now is less so that's good. But it is all the same
amount of water that's going in. Actually more. I'm sorry, more is going in. You can do a
simple mass balance on it. If I have 100 pounds of water fall in this area, before it was
developed 10 pounds of it was going into Lotus Lake. The other part was going to get infiltrated
into the ground. Now I'm generalizing. I know we have clay soils and all that kind of stuff so
it's a little different okay, but 50 pounds are now going to go in. As far as extra water's going to
go into the lake in the developed area. Impervious ground, okay. So that's just a study. Just
general…okay. But it is more, okay. And we need to be aware of that when we start looking at
these things. The pond should help with the phosphorous levels but we need to do models to
make sure we get the flows right. The flows are bad. Lotus Lake went up 17 inches in one day.
One day 2 years ago. …5 1/2 inch storm event okay. So the water in Lotus Lake is getting there
faster and the speed is just as important in that ditch, right, as the… Now I understand the pond
will have an outlet on it that's probably limited size so it doesn't do the ditch too much damage,
okay, so I'm sure that's right. But I challenge the City Council to think of other methods in the
future because right now we don't have regulations and I've got the staff report response, the
findings and I can't argue with those, but I strongly recommend that you start with your staff.
Ask your staff to start working on recommendations around rain gardens, okay, because that's
the solution that helps. Okay. Not putting curbs in. Putting in rain gardens now. Like you do
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
the excavating now to get the slopes right and in the future. Now we can't right now because we
don't have regulations or the proper design, recommendations in place so I challenge you all, ask
your staff to please start to look at setting up regulations and guidelines for the proper use and
management of rain gardens in future development opportunities, okay. Otherwise… So that's
all I have to say.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you.
David Igel: Good evening. My name is David Igel. I live on 501 Big Woods Boulevard and I
just wanted to say up front that I'm not opposed to good development at all. As a matter of fact
we had developed with the help of Mr. Otto's firm, Big Woods on Lotus Lake on the south side.
I live on the very last lot. I'm not sure if there's a large enough scale that shows that or not, and
that's okay if there's not but, okay. I live right there. The creek as it comes through, or drainage
ditch, depending on who you kind of ask, comes right through my yard and in the storm event
that we had that was just referred to, it came through my yard and through my house and did
several tens of thousands of dollars in damage and I think we had done that right, that had
actually been before you folks just as a resident on a previous division that was up just north of
Highway 7. What I would just implore the City Council to look at, and I talked to the staff about
it before, is the timing of reviewing this pond that we're talking about as a possibility as a NURP
pond, for a couple reasons. The first is, in this area here there's a great grove of trees and you
know trees, I did notice in the previous version of the staff report, and I think as it went before
Planning Commission and perhaps this is the same one I just didn't catch it but, but it was noted
by the city staff that if there was some movement in that plan upward that that water could be
dealt with different, it would save a substantial amount of trees which are pretty important in that
corner. If that can't be done, I think, I'm sure that it meets the guidelines but you've got a real
storm water issue and I don't mean just when you get the 12 inches of rain in the 2 hours or
whatever it was that we were hit with. The ponding around there, the water just flowing
completely unfettered through the streets. There's no storm sewer there. No ditches there. No
rain gardens, which I think would be an excellent example. I don't, I'm not implying that this
project should be held up. What I would love to see the City taking the more rapid approach to
that because there continues to be property damage. I just had a conversation with a gentleman
at the end of Big Horn who had substantial property damage. It's erosion on a daily basis and it's
not good for the lake, the people and sometimes people's hands are tied who can do things with
private property, hands are tied in terms of what they can do. So if there's anything that could be
done to move that up. Take a closer look at it. Again I don't want to say that this project should
be delayed for it but if there was a better solution that could be found, you could preserve a much
better look in the trees. This is a high point. I'm sure it's been looked at and modeled but by the
looks of what I've seen in the sketches, my concern would be living in these houses here too. If
it overflows beyond what's accessible through the ends or the emergency overflows, it's going
right into those guy's house. The other thing that the gentleman just before me had said, it's
treated water. Certainly having gone from the hard surface and being treated in this pond, then
into a ditch and then into a creek or a drainageway, which I know the city has done some work
there replacing some of the shores that had been eroded but I think you've got to take a fast look
at check dams. At multiple ponding throughout. I'm certainly no expert on that but living right
there, watching the creek all day, every day. Well, I try to get something more productive done
than watch the creek I guess but living there and seeing the creek where it used to be after rain
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
events things would kind of slowly taper down. That rain, that water comes just blasting through
there and I think less and less is preventing it and more and more gets washed out so I would just
ask the council for not just my home and property and lakeshore but for Lotus Lake, and I'm sure
there are several other lakes that are facing you know similar impact and that would be the one
thing I'd really, really ask you to take a serious look at and you know if there's anything that I can
do as an impacted resident that would help would certainly be happy from that perspective.
Thank you.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Mr. Gerhardt, Mr. Oehme, any comments on the timing of that,
look at that more regional scoping study?
Todd Gerhardt: As Paul mentioned this is not an easy project. We haven't completed the
modeling. We need to look upstream for potentially additional capacity. It's our number one
priority coming into 2008. We'd love to get an engineer on board to start completing the
modeling. Get some plans and specs together here hopefully by December-January to get good
bids and get it started this coming spring. It's our number one priority.
Mayor Furlong: So in 2008 you're referring to actual work being done. The construction. The
planning would occur this year?
Todd Gerhardt: Well I don't want, I don't want to speak for my staff. Depending on what the
findings are. You know that would be our number one goal. But depending on the findings you
know, it depends. But it's definitely something that is a concern. Mr. Igel has a problem and on
those large rain events, it goes right up to his house and we do have a sewer line that goes
through that area also so we have to make sure that that, we did correct that area. But it's our
number one priority from a storm water standpoint for going in 2008.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Anyone else in terms of just public comment on this project?
Steve Donen made a comment from the audience that was not heard on the tape.
Kate Aanenson: I just want to add one thing as Steve mentioned. …and Paul talked about
Dogwood…is working through design issues and who's going to get the bigger impact of it and
that's… That's where it takes a lot more time so we certainly understand…
Mayor Furlong: The engineers can't just do whatever they want to?
Paul Oehme: Not in this town.
Mayor Furlong: Not in this town. And in which town can they? Haven't found it yet?
Todd Gerhardt: Kate brings up a good point. I mean we just got done with the Dogwood
hearing here and it's going to take a community effort on this and if we need an easement or
expand the boundaries of our storm water ponds, we have to work with the residents in that area
to make sure it's accomplished and you know, we've got a great staff. Lori and Paul and Kate are
great with working with neighborhoods. You heard it from the Dogwood people and that's what
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
we'll do on this project also. But the first thing to do is to model it and determine what the flows
are and where they're coming from and where you need to put the ponds. And then get a
contractor in there and start working on it.
Mayor Furlong: Alright, thank you. Any other public comment? Okay, thank you. Appreciate
that. Any follow up questions for staff? We've talked a lot about storm water and quality and
quantity. The rate of flow or the quantity of flow and then the quality of the water, and I think
getting back to Councilman Litsey's issue, as I understand it, and if I'm misunderstanding just let
me know but rather than treating the water here in the pond, bringing it into the more regional
when that's upgraded and approved. Is the design of the pond going to be any, going to create
any difference in terms of the quantity or the quality of the water coming out if we do this as is
being proposed here or if we, if we can size it to handle the capacity, do that down the road. And
are the standards the same for what we're modeling against?
Paul Oehme: Well it's always nicer to put drainage into larger regional ponding. We've heard
that you know, Steve Donen mentioned that larger, that the phosphorous removal in larger ponds
is more efficient than smaller ponds, but does the proposed pond for the development meet our
standards and from the engineer's perspective they do.
Mayor Furlong: And those are national standards.
Paul Oehme: Those are national standards and standards that we've adopted.
Mayor Furlong: And those are the standards we're going to be working with on the other
projects?
Paul Oehme: Absolutely.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Paul Oehme: So the regional pond does help treat the water but the pond that we're looking at,
the issue we have with that pond is the larger rain events. The 5 and the 6 inch rain events.
Steve again mentioned that the 5 1/2 inch rain event. The issue that the lake bounced 17 1/2 feet
was because that pond blew out, so we had a large inundation of water into that lake because that
pond blew out. Now staff did repair that pond to it's best ability. We put some more rip rap in
there and tried to stabilize those slopes but we tried to address it the best we can but the ultimate
fix is to go in there, model it and make sure, and try to increase the capacity of that pond as best
as we can.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Obviously an important issue, especially around all our lakes
is storm water so it's good to see we're spending the time on it. Any other questions for staff? If
not, how about discussion on the proposal before us.
Councilman Litsey: Well I'll start out. As a property owner that will be impacted by the
regional pond, I mean I'm going to do my part for the better good. I mean so when I speak here
it could have an adverse affect perhaps on my property but I understand the significance of it for
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
water quality too so. I think we have an opportunity here to get it right. I think this project is
premature. I think that the city and staff and the developer have done a good job of working
through a lot of issues. The variance makes sense. The layout overall is pretty good. I think the
storm water pond is a good thing. I think we need that even if it was going to go into the
regional pond to help. I just think it's too soon. I think that if we move ahead and we take a
close look or make it a priority to do some things with the regional pond and the developer
comes back at that time and I'd look favorably on it. I just can't right now.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Other thoughts. Comments. Councilwoman Ernst, thoughts?
No?
Councilwoman Ernst: No.
Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Tjornhom?
Councilwoman Tjornhom: For one thing that whoever did the staff report, I really appreciated
the issues and questions raised section. That really I think helped a lot understanding.
Kate Aanenson: Sharmeen.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Sharmeen. Thanks Sharmeen. I think it's a good project. I
understand Councilman Litsey's concern but it does meet our standards right now and so for that
reason I feel comfortable moving ahead and forward with it but…I think this development has
raised and brought awareness to everybody on the issue of the lake and the storm water and it
was a good discussion tonight you know talking about it and realizing for everybody in the room
that it is a priority and it needs to be a priority and we need to keep that momentum going and
make sure that we clean up Lotus Lake a little bit more so with that I will move approve it.
Motion to approve it.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Councilman Peterson.
Councilman Peterson: Really it goes back to the question I asked Paul earlier is, if the pond, if
the pond we're talking about can, can move it's water into the regional pond, if we decide that
that's the best, if we can do that later on, in a year or in 18 months or 2 years from now, then I
don't see a reason why we wouldn't approve it because I'm at a loss, and you might help me. If
we would build a pond exactly the same way this year or next year, and the question is whether
we put a pipe in there, whether we can put a pipe in there, then what are we gaining by a delay?
Maybe I'm missing something.
Councilman Litsey: I think it's pretty clear from what's been said that the water quality would be
enhanced if you could put it in the regional pond first. What's going to, I'm real familiar with the
area because I walk through there a lot and what's going to happen is if that storm water pond
overflows, even if it has high capacity, it's going to, it's not going to get filtered as well as it
would if it went through the regional pond. And therefore affecting the lake quality more
because if it goes into the regional pond first, it will get filtered. Then it goes through the
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
spillway and down. Through the culvert but that's my concern and if it's only, if you're looking
at next year.
Councilman Peterson: So are you saying then that if, that the model say that we shouldn't put
that water in there, that you wouldn't approve the project?
Kate Aanenson: That's the unknown question. We don't know if we can put this water…how
much coverage will it take to make it work and so…if they can handle another pond, then we've
covered ourselves…
Councilman Litsey: And like a lot of things we take a look at, I want to know that first. I want
to know if that's a possibility. If it isn't, yeah then we've looked at that.
Councilman Peterson: Roger, do we have any basis to turn it down? If they meet our current
ordinances.
Roger Knutson: It's your judgment to make that judgment as to whether they meet code and
ordinances. From what staff's saying, they've made a judgment that it does, but you'll have to
make an independent judgment on that situation.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Any other thoughts?
Councilman Peterson: No.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. It's amazing we spent a lot of time on the pond because that was one of
the challenges that I was having with this development but not as much for the reasons that we've
talked about tonight in that to the extent that that pond is being designed to handle the water. To
manage the runoff. The added runoff from this area and improve the quality of that water to
standards and to improve quantity of water to our standards. Then to me the pond is functioning
correctly and it can be engineered to do that, and we do this across our city everywhere else. All
the water. I think Mr. Donen said, all the water eventually ends up in the lakes, right? And so
it's a question of how it gets there and from an engineering standpoint, can they manage the rate
at which it gets there and can they improve the quality of the water when it gets there. To the
extent that this pond is meeting those standards, the same standards that will be applied at the
regional pond and the uncertainty with regard to whether the regional pond will be able to handle
this water without an intermediate pond or not, I'm struggling to say because of that pond itself,
why we shouldn't approve it. It seems to meet our ordinances. It meets the requirements that we
set out and the engineers have said that. You know my concern was more a part of the pond and
how it takes up part of that lot but I think that's another issue and again from an ordinance
standpoint, which is what we're reviewing, you know it meets our current ordinances. The
overall it's a reasonable development. I think it's a good development in some aspects.
Especially with regard to Outlot A and for my standpoint and so I asked Mr. Otto that question,
if there is that realignment of that street, Ms. Aanenson, I think that should be accomplished as
much as possible but I don't think we should intrude into Outlot A because that's on the wetland
side and it's, but it looks like there's room to do that and so I think that's a fair accommodation to
the neighbors to try to realign that road. We spent a lot of time on storm water. I think we've
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
covering that. With regard to street lights, I know that's been brought up. We talked about this,
you know it comes with all the time but street lights are something that is our standard in the city
and something that we want to put in when we can and so I think at those intersections, that
should certainly be done. So overall I think it may not be perfect for everybody but it is, it's a
development that meets our ordinances and that's a standard that we're asked to judge upon and if
there are changes to those ordinances, then we should do that. Part of the challenge is, if we
don't like the ordinances, would it be fair to this developer to come in who's developed a plan
within the ordinance, to wait until we can change our ordinance so they have to redesign their
plan and is that a fair and just process to follow so overall I think to the extent that I believe it
does meet our ordinances, I think we should go ahead with the approval knowing that if the
capacity of the regional pond allows this pond to flow into it first and back and we get some
additional treatment for the area coming off this, you know that's certainly something we should
consider to the extent it can and with that regional pond modeling, take a look at all the runoff in
the area. There's a lot more runoff going through that regional pond than these 8 lots are going
to be, and if this pond is managing 8 lots, then at least we know we're doing the best we can there
and let's look at the regional ponds to do a lot bigger effect on water that's coming all the way up
to Kerber Boulevard and down and a lot bigger area. So I think we should move forward this
evening and understand the desire on everybody's part to do our best to improve water quality in
Lotus Lake. I don't think that is for debate here this evening. The issue before us is does this
development meet our ordinances. I believe it does and I think we should move forward. Any
other comments or thoughts on this? If not, is there a motion? And I didn't catch what page it
was on? Do you have a page number for the motion Ms. Aanenson?
Kate Aanenson: It starts on page 16 of the staff report.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Mr. Mayor I'll make a motion that the City Council approve the
preliminary plat for Planning Case 07-09 for Lotus Woods Subdivision for 11 lots and 1 outlot
with a variance to allow 50 foot right-of-way as shown on the plans dated received May 4, 2007,
prepared by Otto Associates, subject to the following conditions 1 through.
Kate Aanenson: 36.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: 36? Okay, thank you.
Kate Aanenson: …look at the realignment of Lotus Woods Drive at Fox Hill…the realignment
of the headlight issues.
Mayor Furlong: To work with staff?
Kate Aanenson: Yeah.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: That'd be condition number 37.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Condition number 37.
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there a second?
Roger Knutson: And that includes adopting the findings?
Mayor Furlong: Adopting the Findings of Fact?
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Adopting the Findings of Fact.
Councilwoman Ernst: I'll second that.
Mayor Furlong: Motion's been made and seconded. Any discussion?
Councilwoman Tjornhom moved, Councilwoman Ernst seconded that the City Council
approves the preliminary plat for Planning Case 07-09 for Lotus Woods Subdivision for 11
lots and 1 outlot with a variance to allow a 50-foot right-of-way as shown on the plans dated
received May 4, 2007, prepared by Otto Associates, subject to the following conditions:
1.A wetland buffer 25 feet in width shall be maintained around all Manage 1 wetlands. All
wetlands and wetland buffer areas shall be protected by silt fence during grading. Wetland
buffer areas shall be preserved, surveyed and staked in accordance with the City’s wetland
ordinance. The applicant shall install wetland buffer edge signs, under the direction of City
staff, before construction begins and shall pay the City $20 per sign. Principal structures shall
maintain a setback of at least 30 feet from the wetland buffer edge; accessory structures shall
maintain a setback of at least 15 feet from the wetland buffer edge. The wetland buffer and
wetland buffer setback shall be shown on the plans.
2.The SWPPP shall be revised to address all items that are unchecked in the Carver SWCD
“Stormwater Pollution Prevention Plan Checklist” attached to the April 11, 2007 letter to the
City from the Carver SWCD.
3.Stable emergency overflows shall be provided for the proposed pond on site. The emergency
overflows shall be clearly labeled on the plan and a detail shall be provided.
4.All riprap/fabric at the flared end section shall be installed within 24 hours of flared end
section installation.
5.The ditch section west of Carver Beach Road that receives stormwater from the stormwater
pond shall be stable prior to receiving discharge from the site.
6.Erosion control blanket shall be installed on all slopes greater than or equal to 3:1. All
exposed soil areas shall have temporary erosion protection or permanent cover year round,
according to the following table of slopes and time frames:
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
Type of Slope Time (Maximum time an area can
Steeper than 3:1 7 days remain open when the area
10:1 to 3:1 14 days is not actively being worked.)
Flatter than 10:1 21 days
These areas include constructed storm water management pond side slopes, and any exposed
soil areas with a positive slope to a storm water conveyance system, such as a curb and gutter
system, storm sewer inlet, temporary or permanent drainage ditch or other natural or man
made systems that discharge to a surface water.
7.Manholes with two-foot sumps shall be installed as the last road-accessible structures prior to
discharge into the stormwater pond.
8.Chanhassen Type 2, Heavy Duty silt fence shall be installed around all wetlands, streams,
creeks, bluffs and ravines; Chanhassen Type 1 silt fence shall be used around the remaining
areas.
10.A temporary sediment basin shall be constructed prior to disturbing upslope areas. The areas
of temporary sediment basins shall be labeled on the plan. A temporary outlet structure (e.g.,
a perforated riser and rock cone) shall be provided for the pond; a detail shall be provided.
11.Inlet controls are needed for all inlets throughout the project and shall be installed within 24
hours of inlet installation prior to casting. Filter fabric held down by steel plates with 12
inches of ¾-inch rock over each cover may be used. Once casting of inlets takes place, inlet
controls shall be installed within 24 hours. Inlet protection shall be maintained on a regular
basis. For all inlet protection devices, details shall be provided in the plan and in the
SWPPP.
12.Street cleaning of soil tracked onto public streets shall include daily street scraping and street
sweeping as needed.
13.At this time, the estimated total SWMP fee, due payable to the City at the time of final plat
recording, is $31,996.00.
14.The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies
(i.e., Riley-Purgatory-Bluff Creek Watershed District, Minnesota Pollution Control Agency)
and comply with their conditions of approval.
15.Applicant shall submit a landscaping plan showing 72 trees as replacement plantings. All
trees shall be native species. Plan shall specify size, species, and locations.
16.All areas outside of grading limits shall be protected by tree preservation fencing. Fencing
shall be installed prior to grading and excavation for homes on each lot. Any trees shown as
preserved on plans dated revised on 5/1/2007 must be replaced at a rate of 2:1 diameter
inches if removed.
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
17.No grading shall be allowed on Outlot A.
18.A minimum of two overstory trees shall be planted in the front yards of Lots 1-8, Block 1
19.All structures within the proposed right-of-way or within the required setback of Block 2
must be removed.
20.Building Official Conditions:
a.A final grading plan and soils report must be submitted to the Inspections Division before
building permits will be issued.
b.Demolition permits must be obtained prior to demolishing any structures on the site.
c.Retaining walls more than four feet high must be designed by a professional engineer and
a building permit must be obtained prior to construction.
d.Separate sewer and water services must be provided to each lot.
e.Any existing wells and on-site sewage treatment systems on the site must be abandoned
in accordance with State Law and City Code.
21.Fire Marshal conditions:
a.A 10-foot clear space must be maintained around fire hydrants, i.e., street lamps, trees,
shrubs, bushes, Xcel Energy, Qwest, cable TV and transformer boxes. This is to ensure
that fire hydrants can be quickly located and safely operated by firefighters.
b.Fire apparatus access roads and water supply for fire protection is required to be
installed. Such protection shall be installed and made serviceable prior to and during the
time of construction except when approved alternate methods of protection are provided.
c.No burning permits shall be issued for trees to be removed. Trees and shrubs must either
be removed from site or chipped.
d.Fire apparatus access roads shall be designed and maintained to support the imposed load
of fire apparatus and shall be serviced so as to provide all-weather driving capabilities.
Pursuant to Minnesota State Fire Code Section 503.2.3.
e.Fire hydrant locations are acceptable.
f.Proposed street name is acceptable.
g.Temporary street signs shall be installed at street intersections once construction of the
new roadway allows passage of vehicles. Pursuant to 2002 Minnesota Fire Code Section
501.4.
22.Outlot A shall be deeded to the City in lieu of payment of park dedication fees.
23.Revise Sheet 2 of 12 to show “House Type C” on Lots 5 and 6, Block 1.
24.The two accessory structures along Lotus Woods Drive must be removed before grading
commences. A plan is needed to allow all the existing homeowners access to their properties
until the completion of construction. The existing driveways west of Lotus Woods Drive
will need to be removed upon completion of Lotus Woods Drive.
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
25.Rational method calculations and delineation are needed for the sizing of the storm sewer.
Also, add the ordinary high water level of the wetland to the plans.
26.The outlet pipe to the on-site pond must be directionally drilled under Big Woods Boulevard
and discharge into the ditch in Triple Crown Estates.
27.A revised grading plan will be needed to address the following issues:
a.The lowest openings of houses must be three feet above the ordinary high water level or
one foot above the emergency overflow.
b.Lots 2 and 4, Block 1 elevations need to be revised if they are indeed walkouts.
c.The slopes of the driveways on Lots 6 and 8, Block 1 appear to be more than the 10%
maximum and need to be revised.
d.Spot elevations must be shown at each proposed intersection to ensure the curb line has a
.5% minimum slope.
e.Ground (i.e. non-paved) surface grades shall not be less than 2%. All emergency
overflows must be shown on the plan. More contour labels are needed. Also, please turn
off the tree layer so it is easier to read the grading plan.
28.An easement is required from the appropriate property owner for any off-site grading. A
temporary construction easement will be needed for the installation of the manhole on Lot 1
of Big Woods on Lotus Lake. If importing or exporting material for development of the site
is necessary, the applicant will be required to supply the City with detailed haul routes.
29.The existing retaining wall in the southwest corner of the site must be removed before or
during construction of the pond. A building permit is required for all retaining walls four
feet tall or higher and must be designed by a Structural Engineer registered in the State of
Minnesota.
30.The watermain extension from Fox Hill Drive must be wet tapped. Due to the alignment of
the watermain in Fox Hill Drive, it appears that this connection cannot be done under traffic.
The watermain connection on Big Woods Boulevard shall connect to the provided stub and
take place under traffic. The sanitary sewer connection on Big Woods Boulevard connecting
to an existing stub shall be completed under traffic.
31.Actual elevations of existing utilities must be verified for accuracy. Proposed service
connections along with connection details must be added to the plans.
32.Each new lot is subject to the sanitary sewer and water hookup charges. The 2007 trunk
hookup charge is $1,669 for sanitary sewer and $4,485 for watermain. Sanitary sewer and
watermain hookup fees may be specially assessed against the parcel at the time of building
permit issuance. All of these charges are based on the number of SAC units assigned by the
Met Council and are due at the time of building permit issuance.
33.All of the utility improvements are required to be constructed in accordance with the City's
latest edition of Standard Specifications and Detail Plates. The applicant is also required to
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City Council Meeting - June 11, 2007
enter into a development contract with the City and supply the necessary financial security in
the form of a letter of credit or cash escrow to guarantee installation of the improvements and
the conditions of final plat approval. The applicant must be aware that all public utility
improvements will require a preconstruction meeting before building permit issuance.
Permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies will be required, including the MPCA,
Dept. of Health, Carver County, and the Watershed District.
34.The sanitary sewer easement will need to be changed from 20 feet to 30 feet to ensure proper
access for maintenance of this line. The actual location of the watermain and the easement
must be shown to determine if the easement is sufficient.
35.The site distance for turning onto Fox Hill Drive must be verified. Upon project completion,
the applicant shall submit a set of “as-built” plans signed by a professional civil engineer.
36.Sheets 2 through 12 shall be revised to reflect the adjusted property lines.”
37.The applicant shall work with staff to realign the street connection to Fox Hill.
All voted in favor, except Councilman Litsey who opposed, and the motion carried with a
vote of 4 to 1.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you everyone. Appreciate all your efforts.
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
None.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
None.
CORRESPONDENCE DISCUSSION.
None.
Mayor Furlong: If there's nothing else to come before the council this evening, we will be
continuing our last item on the work session in the Fountain Conference room immediately
following our adjournment. Is there a motion to adjourn?
Councilman Litsey moved, Councilwoman Ernst seconded to adjourn the meeting. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. The City Council
meeting was adjourned at 8:30 p.m.
Submitted by Todd Gerhardt
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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