1992 09 14CHt~IHASSEN CZTY COUNCZL
REGULAR HEETZN6
SEPTEMBER [4, [~92
Mayor Chmlel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
HEXBER5 PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilwoman Otmler, Councilman Wing, and
Councilman Mason. Councilman Workman arrived during discussion of item 2.
STAFF PRE~NT= Don Ashworth, Charles Folch, Kate Aanenson, Paul Krauss, 30 Ann
Olsen, Scott Hart and Elliott Knetsch
APPROVAL OF AGENOA= Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Oimier seconded to
approve the agenda with the following additions and changes: Mayor Chmtel moved
item 9 onto the Consent Agenda and under Public Announcements wanted to make a
recommendation from Council commending the Metro Drug Task Force. Councilman
Wing also had a public announcements to make on behalf of the Fire Oepartment.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
CONSENT AGENOA: Councilwoman Oimler moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve
the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendations:
a. David Teich Subdivision Request, 10151 Great Plains Boulevard:
1) Resolution ~92-97: Approval of a Metes and Bounds Subdivision Request
to Create Two Parcels of 5 Acres and 14+ Acres.
2) Approval of Development Contract.
b. Approval of Stipulation Agreement, Ward Property, Highways 101 and 5.
c. Approval of a One Bay Beer License for Oktoberfest, September 25, 1992,
Chanhassen Lions Club.
d. Accept Donation from the Chanhassen American Legion for Purchase of Cellular
Phones for Emergency Operations Center.
e. Resolution ~2-98: Approve Plans and Specifications for Lilac Lane
Improvement Project 91-4, Authorize Advertising for Bids.
f. Resolut[on ~92-99: Accept Utility Improvements in Market Square Project
92-2.
g. Resolution ~2-[0~: Accept Street Improvements in Lake Susan Hills West 5th
Addition, Project
h. Resolution ~92-[01: Accept Street Improvements in Lake Susan Htlls West 6th
Addition, Project 91-7.
j. Approval of Bills.
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
k. City Council Minutes dated August 24, 1992 Planning Commission Minutes dated August 19, 1992
Park and Recreation Commission Minutes dated August 25, 1~2
1. Approval of Contract with McComb Group Ltd. to Undertake a Senior Housing
Feasibility Study.
m. Ordinance Establishing a Franchise Agreement wlth Hlnnegasco, Flrst Readlng.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Chmiel: I just wanted to note the reason I wanted to move that to the
Consent Agenda, the Minnegasco ordinance is that we will be sitting down this
Wednesday with the attorney and Mlnnegasco, myself and Don and I thought it was
worthless to have much discussion on it this evening. And it will be back on
our agenda for a flnal approval.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
Mayor Chmlel: Let me move back first to the Public Announcements. I almost
overlooked that. I have a letter that I'm sending to Sgt. Hudson who's on the
Southwest Metro Drug Task Force and it reads. On behalf of the Clty of
Chanhassen, I'd 11kw to formally thank you for the efforts of the Task Force in
our community. Havlng had the priviledge of being present with the Task Force
on several occasions, I have seen the professionalism with which you and your
agents operate. Publlc Safety Director, Scott Hart has mentioned on numerous
occasions the respect he has for you and your officers. Most recently the Task
Force executed a search warrant at a growing operation in the area of Hlghway 5
and 41. Thls situation again exemplifies how well the Task Force works. But I
reallze there are many, many other cases in and around our community that the
Task Force is working on and the efforts of all of these deserve accommodation.
As Mayor of Chanhassen, please accept my thanks for all you do to make
Chanhassen and our society a much better place. The tlme commitment, exposure
to danger and success have not gone unnoticed. Sincerely and it also has the
Council with it. And with that we're also going to, and I'm not going to read
thls but we're also adoptlng a resolution commending the efforts of the
Southwest Metro Orug Task Force. Richard.
Councilman Wing: Each year the Fire Department has a fund raiser which beneflts
the members and this year the Fire Oepartment received very good public support.
And speaklng on behalf of the 42 members of the Chun Flre Department, we just
wish to say publicly, thank you.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
PUBLIC HEARING: ASSESSMENT HEARING FOR WEST ?gTH STREET IHpROVEHENT PRQJECT
91-8.
Mayor Chmlel: I'd 11kw to open thls publlc hearlng. Thls ls an assessment
hearing for West ?gth Street, Improvement Project 91-8. Oon or Charles.
Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. This project was completed
earlier thls summer with the improvements consisting of the westbound, right
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
turn lane, concrete curb and gutter, store sewer, street lighting, landscaping
and a bituminous overlay. The feasibility study identified those properties
benefitting from this improvement project as being Lot 2 and portions of Lot !
and Lot 3 of the proposed Gateway First ~ddition. The method of assessment is
based on a front foot cost consistent with the feasibility study. Your staff
report has outlined the proposed assessment dollars and I'll summarize those as
for Lot l, a road assessment totalling $16,402.31. Lot 2, roadway and storm
sewer assessment totalling $46,367.74. And for Lot 3, roadway and storm sewer
assessment of $25,346.99. These costs are somewhat higher than that predicted
in the feasibility study partly due to initial under estimate of the required
engineering cost. We had a carry over of this project through the winter time
due to the early October snowstorm last year which added some administrative
costs. ~nd proportionately, these costs become somewhat significant relative to
this being such a small project. But staff believes that the cost and
assessments presented represent a legitimate and necessary project cost
associated to complete the improvement and therefore recommend that the
assessment schedule as contained in your reports be adopted.
Mayor Chmiel: Very good. At this particular time what we'll do is see if
there's anyone that wishes to address this particular item for the assessments
on 71th Street. Is there anyone wishing to address this at this particular
time? It seems like everyone is content with what is taking place. Have you
had any discussions with anyone?
Charles Folch: I've not received a call from any property owners that were
notified.
Don Ashworth: Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes Oon.
Don Ashworth: I did receive a call from Mr. Brown, Gary Brown and he thought
that the rate seemed high and was anticipating-talking with the engineer and
potentially being here this evening. I guess he never contacted you so.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I've not received any calls either. I'd like to call a
question and then we'll have discussion. Can I have a motion to close the
public hearing.
Council,oman Oimler moved, Councilman Nason secon~ to close the public
hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing ~as
closed.
Mayor Chmiel: Discussion. Ursula.
Councilwoman Oimler: I just have a question here and I'm wondering why, and
Richard I'm sure is wondering the same thing. The front footage rates are 80/20
split and I remember when Frontier Trail was before us, I fought through that
with everything I was worth and I didn't get it. I'm just wondering why this is
a 80/20.
Don Ashworth: This is reverse though.
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
Charles Folch: Maybe I can answer. The 80/20 split is actually between two
lots.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. But it's the front footage too you said.
Charles Folch: Right. Well what we did basically was we took the total area
contributing and 204 came off one lot, 804 came off the other so what we did is
just adjust or basically developed a rate that applied it equally to both those
two lots. So actually the Clty's standard share is consistent wlth the storm
sewer whlch is 504 and the remainder is basically split up 80/20 between two
lots. That's not a clty spllt there.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. I just wanted to make sure you were treating us
falrly.
Charles Folch: Absolutely.
Councilman Wing: These total assessment numbers, is that after the 80/20 split
or is that what's going to be split?
Charles Folch: That's after the split. The numbers in your table are the
totals.
Mayor Chmiel: Right, total assessment. Michael, do you have any questions?
Okay. I'd like to have a motion to accept these assessments for the 79th Street
Improvement Project 91-8.
Councilman Mason: So moved.
Councilman Wing: Second.
Resolq~ion ~92-102: Councilman Hason moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve
the Assessment Schedule for the 79th Street Improvement Project 91-8 as
presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING: ACKNOWLEDGE STAFF PROPOSED 1993 SUHHARY BUDGET, ADOPT 1993
PROPOSED LEVY, AND ESTABLISH OFFICIAL PUBLIC HEARING DATES.
Mayor Chmiel: This is item number 2.5 and I'd like to open that public hearing.
This ls acknowledge staff proposed 1993 summary budget, adopt 1993 proposed levy
and establish official public hearing dates. Oon.
Don Ashworth: This is the first of the hearings proposed for the 1993 budget.
It seems like we just finished the last budgetary process. We're proposing
dates of September 14th, October 5th, October 19th, November 2nd, November 16th
and shown in your 11st is Oecember 14th, whlch cannot be. We're gotng to have
to select a new date on that one. As it deals with the certification belng made
by staff, we're still in the dark in regards to a lot of the revenue numbers.
We just received flscal disparity contribution distribution and tax capaclty
numbers thls past week. In setting the amount, staff has done it in such a
fashlon that we anticipate that there will not be a property tax lncrease lf, at
the end of the process the Council were to select that as our final budgetary
numbers. It's important to note that the amount lnltlal set cannot be expanded.
City Council Meeting - September
You cannot increase over that amount as we go through this budgetary process.
The Council has the full right ability to reduce that. $o after we go through
the budget process and you say ! don't like this. ! don't like that and it ends
up that we reduce it from the numbers we have here, again you have the full
right to do that. We anticipate that the culmination of the budget process
again will occur in early to mid-December. And again, one of the things the
Council needs to do this evening is to select a potential hearing date. Staff,
the dates selected by the counties and school districts, oh those are the dates.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, we have to make sure that we, unfortunately we're in three
school districts. As you've indicated and that really sets it hard for us.
Don Ashworth: I'm not sure what the Council's pleasure would be. They've taken
the two Nondays in December.
Mayor Chmiel: I think we could try'for the 25th and everybody'd be around.
Councilman Wing: So moved.
Don Ashworth: Good Christmas present. 21st is probably too close to the
Christmas holidays?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Oon Ashworth: And again, the two Mondays.
Mayor Chmlel: Can we convene on one special evening?
Oon Ashworth: Yes. You're to set the date for the heartng and also to set an
optional date in case that you do not end your business on the origlnal hearing
date. I think the second date that we had picked out was okay, if I remember.
Mayor Chmlel: Yeah.
Councilman Mason: 21st is too late?
Oon Ashworth: It's very close to Christmas but if it's alright wlth the
Counc11. I mean that's a vaItd date.
Mayor Chmiel: Well we can.
CounciIwoman 0imler: I'll be out of town.
Mayor Chmiel: If there are people who have concerns and really want to dtscuss
that and they're planning on Ieaving for the holidays.
Don Ashworth: It lsn't shown in here. My recollection ls that December lSth
was the last date...
E111ott Knetsch: It ls December 15th.
Oon Ashworth: Oecember lSth is the final date so we can't go past Oecember
15th.
City CounciI Meeting - September 14, 1992
Councilwoman Dimler: It doesn't have to be a Honday night does it?
Don Ashworth: No.
CounciIwoman Dimier: Can it be Wednesday the 9th7
Don Ashuorth: You couId go with the, the 1Gth uouId be aIright. The 9th wouId
be open.
Hayor Chmiel: You can't go beyond the 15th so we couidn't go to the 1Gth. How
about December 9th, as Ursula was saying?
Don Ashworth: The ~th would be fine.
Mayor Chmiel: Which would be a Wednesday.
Councilman Hason: It's a Planning Commission.
Hayor Chmiei: No, it's not anything.
Don Ashworth: I'm confident with this 5 sessions that we're going to have in
advance of that, would the Council mind setting like December lOth as the
optional date? I'm confident you'll never get to that date. We'li have
everything concluded before you get to that point.
Hayor Chmiel: That's Public Safety Commission that particular night.
Councilwoman Oimler: Thursday is HRA?
Hayor ChmieI: No. HRA wouid be, when. The l?th.
Don Ashworth: Our regular in December, I can't remember if in Oecember we had
moved our meetings. The eariiest the HRA couid be wouid be the l?th. In fact
it probabIy is the l?th. But you do have another meeting shown for the loth.
Hayor ChmieI: But how about the ~th?
Don Ashworth: Aren't we setting the ~th as the officiaI hearing date?
Hayor ChmieI: Right.
Don Ashworth: But then if we need to continue, we'd go to the lOth, which I'm
confident we'Ii never do.
Hayor ChmieI: AIright. Okay. Does everyone have that?
CounciIman Wing: Hr. Hayor, just a preiiminary question of the b~dget process.
If the City shouid refuse to use tax doIiars to pay saies tax, who wouid go to
jail?
Mayor Chmiel: Hr. Ashworth. Notice how quickly I said that.
Councilman Wing: That's all I was interested in.
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
Don Ashworth: The State doesn't really care how you pay the sales tax but you
must pay the sales tax.
Councilman Workman: They keep our LGA.
Councilman Wing: I'm just interested, I'm real curious to see what impact
that's going to have on our budget. That's really seml frightening.
Mayor Chmiel: Well it's going to have quite an impact, unfortunately. I think
we should all start lobbying back to the State to see if we can't get that
changed.
Councilman Wing: Amen.
Councilwoman Oimler: Could I ask just one more question before we act on this?
It says here that we're to adopt the 1993 proposed levy tonight. That's the
way I read lt. And yet I don't see anything to base my decision on.
Don Ashworth: In the past, staff has looked at this as though, staff is
actually the one that is making the certification wlth recognizing that the
Council then would have the ability to reduce that.
Councilwoman Oimler: So you're going to recommend.
Oon Ashworth: But from a technical standpoint, it is still, it still needs to
recelve the endorsement. You have to be aware that we are golng through that
process. So the amount that has been established or that we're looktng at is 5~
more than last year's operational levy. The debt portlon w111 be hlgher. And
that's recognizing the two larger projects that we've done in the past 2 years.
But that's just straight from the debt schedules from Springsted, from
MacGillvery.
Councilwoman Oimler: But we'll see the details on this later?
Don Ashworth: Yes. And as the revenue projections are prepared, you'll also
see it at your home because then the lmpact of this 5~ w111 be seen and you will
get an estimate. If that ends up as our final adopted. If the Council says,
yeah. We agree wlth that, that would actually be then your tax as far as the
City is concerned. You w111 get a notice saying, the proposed tax by the City
for 1993, if the budget that they're currently considering is adopted, will be
and then it will show $982.00. This compares to last year's $983.00. They'll
do that for the County and for the Clty.
Councilwoman Oimler: But what you're proposing, you don't see a tax increase?
Don Ashworth: No, but again I haven't gotten final numbers yet.
Mayor Chmiel: We're going to be looktng for a tax decrease.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, great. I'll vote for that.
Councilwoman Oimler: Mr. Mayor, I would have liked to have heard Oon finish his
statement.
City Council Meeting - September
Mayor Chmiel: He just sualloued hard.
Don Ashworth: We're going to be able to achieve that. I honestly do.
Councilwoman Dimler: Good.
Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else wishing to address this at this time?
Gayle Oegler: Just one question.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes, would you like to come up to the microphone and please state
your name and your address please.
Gayle Degler: I'm Gayle Degler at 1630 Lyman Boulevard and my question
basically is just, how many mtlllon are we talklng about for this proposed
budget? Do we have any 1dew?
Oon Ashworth: Yeah. The total budget for the City from this past year was
$7,200,000.00 for all operations and all activities. And we're anticipating
approximately, well that would be the portion. The general tax portion would be
increasing by agaln that 5~. The general tax levy of the
proposed to be for this next year, $3.6 million. My recollection is that that
would have been $3.2 to $2.3 million for
Mayor Chmiel: It's really hard to say because all the budgets have not come in
from each of the departments. So he's just sort of guesstlmatlng more than
anythlng else right now. Anyone else? Can I have a motion to close the public
hearing?
Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Oimler seconded to close the public
hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was
closed.
Mayor Chmiel: Shall we also put a time for that public hearlng on the gth? Are
we contemplating it at 7:00 or 7:30?
Don Ashworth: I anticipated 7:30 but if you'd like to.
Mayor Chmiel: No, let's put it 7:30. That's the normal meeting time that we
have.
Resolution ~92-103: Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to
acknowledge the staff's proposed 1993 summary budget, adopt the 1993 proposed
levy and to establish the official public hearing dates as amended to change the
final date to December 9, 1992 instead of Oecember 14, 1992, with the alternate
date being Oecember 10, 1992. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
AWARD OF BIDS: PHASE I OF UPPER BLUFF CREEK !RUNK UTILITIES. PRO3ECT 91-17.
Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. As I have provided in my
staff report, unfortunately the bid opening for this project didn't occur until
last Frlday so there wasn't enough tlme to have the information in the packet.
Thus, we're providing information for you tonight. During the design process,
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
some modifications were made to this project. You may recall that at the same
time Chanhassen, the Metropolitan Waste Control Commiss£on and Chaska were
concurrently working on a 3oint Powers Agreement to allow some flow from Chaska
to be diverted on an interim basis through this new proposed system into the
Lake Ann Interceptor. These flow sheet design modifications will of course be
reimbursed by the MWCC as specified in the Joint Powers Agreement. Also, due to
development timing, some utilities that were proposed through the Stone Creek
Addition and that were previously scheduled to be a part of Phase II, have now
been rescheduled for Phase I at the developer's request. Again, these
additional costs will be recovered through trunk and lateral benefit assessments
to these lots within the subdivision. Bonestroo-Rosene-AnderlIk Associates have
provided an itemized list that was contained in your staff report of some of
these project element changes which were not known at the previous report time
and have also prepared a revised construction cost estimate which to date ks
$2,348,000.00 for Phase I of the project. As I stated, this past Friday the
bids were received and opened for the project. A total of Il bids were received
with the low bid being submitted by Progressive Contractors at $2,352,258.00.
This is roughly.within $4,000.00 or 2/10 of a percent of the engineer's revised
estimate so that's pretty good.. I give credit-to Bonestroo on that one..Given
this favorable low bid received, it is'predicted that the trunk and lateral
assessments generated from the project and MWCC's reimbursement to Chanhassen
for this interim capacity to Chaska, this will balance the overall cost estimate
for Phase I of this Upper Bluff Creek project. I should point out that a number
of easements still need to be acquired for this project and the City is
continuing to work with these property owners during this acquisition process.
Two easements however are critical from a timing standpoint in order to begin
construction yet this fall and those easements are along the future extension of
Lake Drive West between County Road 17 and Audubon Road. And the other is-along
Audubon from that future extension of Lake Brive West to about 1,300 feet south
or just north of the Rod Grams property. Since easement acquisition may take up
to another 90. days, staff-is going to try to obtain right of entries from these
two property owners to allow us to at least begin construction during the
easement process. On a background check on Progressive Contractors, we received
information that they performed satisfactorily-on previous projects of this
significant size in other metro area communities. It ts therefore recommended
that Phase I of the Upper Bluff Creek Trunk Utility Project,.No. ~1-17 be
awarded to Progressive Contractors, Inc. at a total base bid of $2,352,258.00
contingent upon receiving full easements or right-of-entries from the two afore
mentioned areas along Lake Drive West and Audubon Road by a date of October 12,
1992.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Are there any questions? The total amount of
dollars that you're talking uith the reimbursement that we're going to get from
the MWCC, ls golng to offset any of the additional costs that may be there?
Charles Folch: That's correct. We will be getting both a capital cost
reimbursement and an annual operation and maintenance reimbursement from MWCC.
Mayor Chmiel: Oo you know what that might be?
Charles Folch: The capital costs. I belteve lsa little over $80,000.00 and the
maintenance and operational is on a 5 year schedule starting with the first year
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
they'll pay 100~ and it decreases each year by 10~. So the fifth year they'll
be down to 50~.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Okay. Is there a motion to accept the award of bids?
Councilman Wing: I'll so move.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Councilman Wing: Staff recommendation for Project 91-17 to Progressive
Contractors.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion?
Resolution ~92-104: Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Hason seconed that Phase
I of the Upper Bluff Creek Trunk Utility Project, No. 91-17 be awarded to
Progressive Contractors, Inc. at a total base bid of $2,352,258.00 contingent
upon receiving full easements or right-of-entries from the two afore mentioned
areas along Lake Drive West and Audubon Road by a date of October 12, 1992.
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
AWARD OF BIDS FOR WEST 86TH STREET TRUNK WATERHAIN PROJECT 90-10.
Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. On Tuesday, September 8th
bids were received and opened for the West 86th Street Trunk Watermaln Project
No. 90-10. A total of 8 bids were recelved wlth the confirmed low bid belng
received from Machtemes Construction at a bid of $246,500.10. This was
approximately $10,000.00 below the engineer's estimate. Again, this ls another
project where we have to acquire some utility easements from a few property
owners along the route. We're currently again in the process ulth these
property owners and we've obtalned a couple waivers of trespass to begin
construction. We st111 are looking for one more walver of trespass to begln
construction so agaln ue would recommend an award of bid for the West 86th
Street trunk uatermaln project to Machtemes Construction at a base bld of
$246,510.00 and again we would contingent upon the City acquiring the necessary
project easements or rights of entrles by November, on this project, by November
6, lgg2 before we begin construction.
Mayor Chmiel: The one property owner that you have not secured, are they
residents within the city?
Charles Folch: They own property, this person is currently out of town. I
don't know if he still has a residence within town but he's currently out of
town and we're dealing with them on that basis right now.
Mayor Chmiel: And I'm assuming there aren't any costs entailed for.
Charles Folch: Well at this point in time, we are going through an appraisal
process and there will be a cost, some cost associated with acquiring these
easements and that uill be basically our appraiser will determine a value and
we'll negotiate that wtth the property owner and hopefully we can come to some
consensus as to exactly what that value is for granting the city the easement
for the utllity.
10
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
Mayor Chmiel: The utility is going to provide that property owner some
additional enhancement as well.
Charles Folch: That's correct. Any time that you're providing either a street
or a utility that either borders or goes through a property and can be serviced
or used by that property, it does provide that beneftt to the property.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I'd like to find out how you're going to proceed with this
one with the last one.
Charles Folch: Okay. At this point we'll at least try to acquire the last
right of entry which allows us to go onto the property to begin construction and
certainly ue can have discussions with the entlre Council if you'd 11ke, as to
how this process is proceeding.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Any other questions? Can I have a motion?
councilman Workman: I move appPoval of the award of bids of West 8&th Street
Trunk Watermain Projeot gO-lO.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Nason seconded to a~ard the bid for West
86th Street Trunk Watermatn Project 90-10 to Hachtemes Construction at a base
bid of $246,510.00 contingent upon the City ac~utrtnV the necessary project
easements or rights of entries by November 6, 1~2. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously.
DISCUSSION OF THE ~993 POLICE CONTRACT WITH THE ~ER ~JNTY SHERIFF'S
DEPARTHENT.
Scott Hart: Mr. Mayor and Ctty Council. Sheriff Wallln and I are recommending
tonight that the Council agree to enter into a contract with Carver County and
the Clty of Chanhassen for lg93 for police services which would include 4
additional hours per day beyond the time that we have contracted for over the
past 2 years. We're here discussing this tonight rather than through the budget
process that you've discussed the time line for because the Sheriff does need
this additional time to plan for thelr personnel and equipment needs for 1993.
The documentation that I have provided you wtth, I've outltned why I feel that
this recommendation lsa responsible one and unless you have speciflc questions,
I won't go over each item point by point. But in making your decision, I would
ask you to keep in mind that while this lsa difficult tlme for a department
head to come before you and ask for anything more, I've not been here for 2
years asklng for an increase in contract time in spite of the rapid growth we're
experiencing. Also, I'm frequently asked, when will Chanhassen have it's own
police department. The answer is simply, we won't as long as the cost benefits
remain as strong as they are for us and as long as the system works as well as
it does. But to ensure that the system does contlnue to work, we have to make
the commitment as a city to make sure that we contract for a sufficient number
of hours to make the system work. To do anything less would be setting up the
Sheriff's Department and the system as a whole for failure. Counctl has
struggled with lssues before that cost money, or are an investment in our
future. This increase w£11 fall within that category. As Chanhassen continues
11
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
to grow and the public safety needs continue to increase, I believe the City has
a need to maintain the level of service that the city has come to expect. I
think it falls under the category of something being penny ulse and pound
foolish. While I'll be happy to answer any questions that you have, it is the
unanimous recommendation of the Public Safety Commission, the recommendation of
Sheriff Wallln and of the Public Safety Director, that the Council agree to
enter lnto a contract with the Carver County Sheriff for 32 hours of pollce
contract service for 1993.
Mayor Chmlel: Thank you. Don, do you have any speclfic comments on thls?
Oon Ashworth: Again, we are getting ahead of the budgetary process. That is of
concern. In talking wlth Al, the Sherlff, he felt that if we had a problem, we
would not, thls is not a final commitment and so if through the budgetary
process we simply cannot meet the goal we're strlving for here, we can reduce
that. The second part has been a continuing concern of mine and that is, to
ensure that as a County that we are establishing a base level of servlce that ls
known and recognized and is something apart from the hours associated with the
contracting cltles. We don't really have that now. The County Board has set
that as a goal. That's been a goal for the past 5 years. I would like to make
another presentation to them potentially wlth the Mayor again advocating that
they strlve to get to that base level. The primary reason is that right now,
especially in the western portion of the county, the same offlcer that lsa base
level officer is also a contracting city offlcer. And it really doesn't make
any sense for Watertown to talk about buylng additional hours because all
they're doing is simply paying more of the cost associated with the person
that's already out there. They're not buying additional, or at least lt's not
clear. So if you talk to the Sheriff or Deputy Sheriff, they say no. We really
try to give them the additional hours but it's very hard to flnd them. So if we
get the County to a position where they have established, we are going to
operate a 24 hour vehlcle, 3&5 days a year, then you know whether or not the
contracting cities are actually buying something more than that base level.
Councilman Wing sat in on meetlngs going back, how far? 8 to 10 years where
this same issue was discussed. I think the County is striving to get up to a
recognized base level. I'd 11ke to use this year's, if the Counc11 approves our
increase, as an additional justification for why the County should make a
similar increase in their oun service level.
Mayor Chmiel: And with that, does everyone understand that?
Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah, I do have a question on, I agree with the proposal.
I'm just wondering, since we're just set October Sth as the budget date process,
which lsn't that far off, what ls the rush? Why does the Sheriff want this
approved tonight and why can't we wait until the Sth of October?
Scott Harr: Because they will have to hire an additional officer. They're in
the process of getting their budget prepared. An extra vehtcle would In all
probability have to be purchased by them so logistically, they've got quite a
few things to do to prepare for it. As the City Manager said though, Sheriff
Wa111n understands the process and at this time ls more looklng at what we will
plan on dolng, realizing that the process has to go through as deflned by the
City Manager.
12
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
Councilwoman Dimler: I'm more comfortable approving when I can see some
numbers. That's why I'm asking the question.
Mayor Chmiel: Well the numbers in comparison to what we would be going to get
and getting is very minimal in comparison.
Councilwoman Dimler: I know that. I know that.
Mayor Chmiel: And I feel too, sitting in as I do on the Public Safety
Commission, discussions that were had, is that our growth is getting much more.
We are now at close to 14,000. In that neighborhood and I think we have to make
sure that the residents within our community.are provided with the best
protection that Council can provide as far as-dollars are concerned. And in
comparison, for cost as I think I talked about just before I did a study on cost
comparisons of having a full time police department and no way do I feel we're
going to start that.
Councilwoman Oimler: No way.
Hayor Chmlel: Because that would cost us roughly about $1,500,000.00 in
comparison and we're st111 getting this for way, way less and sttll being
provided the klnd of protection that we're looking for.
Councilwoman Oimler: Yeah, and I do want to make a comment that I'm really
impressed that we can still work so cooperatively as we have over the years
because when we first came on the Council, that was not the case and I think
that they do have an excellent record of responding. There's no question that
we need the increased hours. I was just wondering why the rush here before the
October 5th.
Don Ashworth: Thls item could be put off unt11 after October 5th, if you wanted
to, really the numbers are here as far as the cost for the contract. But you
won't really know what all of the department requests are. You have to get...
Councilwoman Oimler: Yeah, we won't see the relation of the other departments.
Don Ashworth: ...and all of the revenue and you're really looking to like
November 2nd before that, we'll have those final numbers in. So agatn, if you
would like to see this walt unt11 after we've had the presentation on Publlc
Safety, that would be fine but I don't see that it really gains you that much
more.
Councilwoman Oimler: I thlnk if the rest of the Council is comfortable wtth it,
I am too.
Mayor Chmlel: Okay. Richard.
Councilman Wing: Well I'd like to move on this only because I think 32 hours is
something the City needs and deserves and all we're really adding is fringe
patrol and I thlnk it's about time we got a little more serious about that. The
fringes have not had the coverage the downtown area has. The numbers are in
line. The numbers are very favorable to costs. I think we've got a formula
we've trled to comply with. We're not in compliance with that formula. We
13
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
haven't been for several years. I don't see this as an increase. I just think
this is something we've put off two years ago that we're finalty getting around
to. So I think it's irrelevant and the total costs are irrelevant if you look
to the reality of what could happen. So I'd prefer to move on it tonight also.
Councilwoman Oimler: But that doesn't mean we would start with the new service
hours right away. That will still only start in January.
Mayor Chmiel: No, that's correct.
Councilman Wing: That takes care of 3Z hours but there's a separate issue here
and that's that baseline and that's been so evasive and so elusive and I
don't, I'm willing to push that $100.00 bill and place it on the counter and
dare you to take it Don. I'd like to see if we can't make some headway on that
baseline and whatever I can put in to help that, time or effort, I'd like to.
Let's pursue that. I think the County should take that a little more seriously.
Don Ashworth: If we don't get it through this year, we'll get it through next
year.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah, right.
Councilman Workman: I think he has kids in college. He doesn't even have a
hundred bucks. I thlnk in light of, this ls gotng to be 12 months day today or
so, thls is going to be a different looking community I've got a feeling.
Thanks to downtown and some of the thlngs that are going to be going on in the
industrial park and everything. And so if I didn't trust the Sheriff and Scott
and everybody so much, I would have concerns too. I think we know what those
costs are. I think that's a correct statement that 2 years ago we were pulling
at thls so I do feel comfortable wlth thls. I know that we've a11, lt's kind of
one of those things where we talk out of both sides of our mouth. We want more.
We want better speed trap patrol, we want all sorts of other thlngs but, so here
it is time to take care of it and I think my own personal feellng, we're there.
Mayor Chmiel: Michael.
Councilman Mason: I concur. I'd also like to compliment Scott for the
Chanhassen model. Reading in his report that other cities are asking Chan how
they do it as well as they do, I thlnk is a credlt to your department and the
city.
Mayor Chmiel: One other thing I'd just 11ke to mentlon. Bob Zydowsky just
recently completed his law enforcement training center, his Skills Class 2
graduation which now puts hlm on wlth the City and in conjunction, in tying that
in with the Sheriff's Oepartment, which I think is really great Al. I'd 11ke to
publlcly say that because lt's good to see the klnd of worklng relationship we
have between the city and the Sheriff. I really appreciate that and
congratulations. So ulth that, I would call the question.
Councilman Wing: I would like to move approval of the 1993 police contract for
32 hours.
Councilwoman Oimler: Second.
14
City Council Meeting - September ld, 1~2
Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to approve the contract with
the Carver County Sheriffs Department for 32 hours of poltce contract service
for 1993. All voted in favor and the mot/on carried unanimously.
CONCEPTUAL PUD FOR ~13 $~NGLE FAH~LY R~S~OENTZAL LOTS ON ~3 (NET) ACRES. EAST
SIDE OF HIGHWAY 41 AO3ACENT TO BHT AUTOMOTIVE. LUNDGR~N BROTHERS OEUELOpHENT ON
THE 30HNSON/OOLE3~/TURNER PROPERTy.
Jo Ann Olsen: The Planning Commission reviewed this and did recommend
unanimously, recommended approval for the concept plan. The applicant, this is
the first stage of a review for a planned unit development and it's just a
conceptual plan for you to determine whether or not you want to accept it as a
planned unit development. Staff in the report did recommend approval that it be
rezoned to PUD. We feel that the site does contain some sensitive features that
the applicant has been able to work around using some of the relaxed standards
of the Zoning Code through the planned unit development. We have several
conditions as part of the approval for the concept plan. Mostly it's just
recommendations for changes in the new submittal that they have actually made at
this time and they have already addressed several of these conditions. The
Planning Commission again did recommend unanimously that it be approved for the
concept plan. Some of the conditions that they commented on, that we would also
hope that the Council give direction to staff on. The connection of the
cul-de-sac ! and G. We are still recommending that those do be connected. It
is two long cul-de-sacs that will be difficult for buses to, they will not be
able to go down there and for the children to... Another one of the things that
was mentioned or discussed was the cul-de-sac islands. The Planning Commission
generally felt that the cul-de-sac islands should be permitted. They liked
them. Staff had been recommending that they be removed because there has been
some difficulty from an engineering perspective as far as snow removal,
emergency access and those type. of items: The PUD does meet all the items for a
planned unit development. The density is quite low. They are not really
utilizing a lot of the smaller lots. It's more so to get flexibility of some of
the setbacks and to work around'some of the vegetative areas. In summary, we
are again recommending approval with the conditions that are on page 19, 20 and
21. The applicant is here to answer any questions. I think he does sttll have
some comments on the conditions that staff are proposing and then again we would
just like some direction on some of those conditions from Council.
Hayor Chmiel: Very good. And with that, are we going to see what this is all
about? What the conceptual plan is. Do we have anything at a117
30 Ann 01sen: Do you want the plans? I've got all the.
Mayor Chmiel: Are you going to put that up so other people can see it?
~o Ann Olsen: The applicant also has slides if you're interested in that, he
can set that up.
Mayor Chmiel: Which would be better?
Jo Ann Olsen: Oh, I think this is fine. The location of the property and it's
surrounded by State Highway 41 and Highway 5. The northern part of the property
is where the applicant ls proposing to develop at thls time. The southern part
15
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
ls in the 1995 study area on the comprehensive plan, that's going to remaln as
outlot. Nothing's being proposed for that at this time. He's showing a
preliminary plat wlth some of the features of the slte. One of the concerns
that staff had with this was that the extensive vegetation that was going to
be...and the applicant has been working with that... Do you want more?
Mayor Chmiel: No, I think that covers it fine. It is your time.
Terry Forbord: Your Honor, members of the Clty Council. My name ls Terry
Forbord and I'm Vice President of Land Development for Lungren Bros. at 935 East
Wayzata Boulevard in Wayzata, Minnesota. And out of courtesy and respect for
the schedule that you have, I know you have a lot of 1rems coming up behind me.
I have a 2 hour presentation but I don't thlnk that lt's, I just don't know
what, how many questions you have and I'd be happy to go as much into detail as
the Counc11 would wish. Thls is a concept plan approval. We have already
submitted our preliminary plat to the city and they are reviewing it at this
tlme so I wlll be before you very shortly agaln wlth the preliminary plat
approval. So at this tlme I think I would just ask the Council how far they
would 11ke me to go at thls time because I'd leave that up to the Counc11.
Mayor Chmiel: Well, I guess I have a few questions in relationship to some of
the slzes of the lots in comparison. Some of those belng what, 11,000 square
feet. Which is about another 4,000 and I guess my concerns with some of those
particular lots, wantlng to know what size those lots were in themselves. And
if oonslderations had been given to many of the thlngs that we sit up here and
have people comlng back for all those good thlngs such as their decks and thlngs
that they want to do and yet we sometimes cannot allow them to do. And as I had
been a strong advocate of the 15,000 square foot lot$ wlthln the clty, I feel
strongly about that and I would maybe like to see some of those 11,000 square
foot lots be upped and some of those larger lots be cut back. And there is a
whole host and assortment of different sizes of lots. But that's some of my
concerns. Ursula.
Councilwoman Dimler: I have four questions too. I guess I'll just bring them
out and then you can answer them throughout your presentation. I'd like to know
where you are in the petitlon process for the extension of the utilities because
that will certainly effect this. Would you also please give us the results of
the neighborhood meetlngs you've had with the neighbors and how they've been
golng. I'd like an explanation of the cul-de-sac islands and how they'll impact
the safety. And also, is thls project 11kely to force assessments on existlng
neighbors with sewer hook-ups, etc..
Terry Forbord: Those are good questions and I think that I wlll set up my
projector and klnd of prepare for some of the things, because each one of those
klnd of leads to another question. And for me to adequately address them, I
will need the visual aids that I have.
Jo Ann Olsen: Maybe to answer one of your questions Mr. Mayor that you were
bringing up, as he's setting this up. As far as the lot sizes. One of the
thlngs that we were looklng at ulth thls PUD was that there was always st111
buildable area for a 60 x 40 pad which we were feeling that's necessary to
provlde to prevent variances in the future and they are providing that. And a
16
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1~92
lot of the larger lots actually are wetland areas or vegetated or preserved so I
don't knou how easy it would be to reduce those and put that elsewhere.
Terry Forbord: The other thing I need to do, in case you haven't figured it
out, is stall a ltttle bit for time because all these high priced consultants
that Z've got are comlng from different Council meetings. Oh, there's one of
them. Before I get into this, probably the biggest issues or the burning issues
that the Counc11 w111 have related to the plan itself, ts the lot size and why
are certain things the way that they are. Many of you have heard me address
some of these things before and just talklng conceptually about PUD's, or in
other neighborhood communities that we have brought before you. PUO's are
really a hassle to do from a developer's standpoint because the process that we
have to go through is certainly more complex. It costs more money. There's
money documentation. Really the ordinances and the codes are kind of set astde
in the city, the legislative authority of the city can pretty much be put on the
developer in the manner that the olty determines. Whereas if I just came in as
a standard subdivision, I could by the code and the subdivision and basically
the clty would be ina positlon where they'd probably legally have to approve it
as long as I met the code and the ordinance. $o you know, people say well, why
in the beck do you go through all this then in doing a PUB? It takes more time.
It's more costly. Well, it's very simple for a company like ours. In order for
us to be successful at Lundgren Bros., we flnd that we have to do something
different than what all of our competition'is doing. It's really that
elementary. If we were just to go in and put in normal lots and no other pizzaz
or any of the things that most of our buyer profile says that they want, then
we'd be just like everybody else. It's just as a'buslness, what we're trylng to
find and we interview'and survey all of our clientele 2 or 3 times a year. Say
what ls it that you want from us? What can we do? What can we provtde you wlth-
to make the investment that you're making in the community the quality of life
that you want better than our competition. Well, the down side of that is all
of those things have a price to pay: There's a'price to pay for aL1 of those
things, whether they be tennis courts. Whether they be volleyball. Whether
they be skating rinks, ahether they be intense landscaping and berms.and
entrance monumentatlon and irrigation and all those other things. They all cost
a lot of money. So one of the benefits for us~ when'we go into a situation like
thls, along wlth being able to provtde open space and spectal little amenities
in our neighborhoods that normally we could not provide elsewhere under standard
subdivision rules and regulations, the PUD allows us to be a 11ttle flexible and
allows us to divert a 11ttle bit from lot sizes and/or setbacks and often ttmes
we're able to get a few more'lots. Not always~ because if you look at the
denslty, the density is extremely lot, but sometimes those additional
generations of revenue enables us to do some of those other things. That's only
one aspect of it. From a city like Chanhassen's standpoint, and I've talked
dlrectly to you about thls before on a neighborhood community that you probably
recall being referred to as Ortenblat/Ersbo, ~hich'we now are marketing as
Wlllow Rldge. The reason we did a PUD there ls just purely from an
environmental standpoint, it was eastly to'do that and defer from the standard
regulations and be more sensitive to the extsttng conditions. And this site ls
not unlike that. I'm going to go to the slides at this time, just to kind of
give you an overvlew of the particular slte and it's exlsting condition. Thls
represents aerial view, helicopter~ we flew the site...just some photography so
it would be easier to explain to folks on the'Planning Commission and the
neighbors, Planning Commission and the City Council the general lay of the land
17
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
and why we are proposing this neighborhood community in the manner in which we
do. We also do this, not just to explain to you but in the initial stages we
want to see ourselves. I mean many of you have seen aerial photogrpahy,
satellite photography and you can kind of get a feel for it then but when we
start doing thls type of analysis, you really get a different feel for lt. It's
very helpful from a planning, and those of you who are familiar wlth us, we
spend a lot of tlme in just planning. Before it gets to you, we've probably
gone through 10 to 20 different concepts and staff often times see those through
the process because we come in and say, what do you think of this. What do you
think of that so we've usually done probably more concepts planning than what
typically is done. But you can see rlght here is Highway 41. You have Lake
Minnewashta over here. This mass of water is the sprawl of Lake Minnetonka to
the north. Rlght along through here there's a power 11ne that goes, you can see
the power poles and this one quite readily. This property from here northward,
up to about right through Lake Harrlson ls commonly known as the Song property.
North of that is the Carlson property. The subject property of what we are
before you tonlght ls kind of cuts rlght through thls wooded dlagonal here and
up like this. And right in this general area is what is called the Johnson/
Dolejsl/Turner property and it conslsts of approximately 95 acres of land. A
couple points before I change thls slide here. I don't know what you can see
from that angle of where you are but rlght here lsa ravlne. Then it goes up
only about a 75 foot distance. Maybe 100 feet. It goes up approximately ?0
feet. And then rlght 1nrc here there's another ravlne. And then 1t goes up
very abruptly another 65-70 feet or another 50-60 feet. Then there's a big
wetland here. There's a wetland actually wlthln these trees. There's actually
a wetland here and a couple other potholes and there's an inferior wetland
complex in this area. And we'll get to those 1rems here in a mlnute. Here's
the existing house so if you were out in front here, you could kind of see this
topography and how it changes. It's really an interesting phenomenum. The same
thing occurs on the Song property over through here. This is the Song home
rlght on the edge here. This is looklng from the north towards the south. Thls
is Highway 41. We have Highway $. The subject property would be ltke thts and
11ke thls. You can see this large wetland here, here, and there are a couple
of scattered ones throughout the slte that are difficult to see in this
particular photograph. And here's the power 11ne. You may note by looking at
both slldes, most of this was all farmland at one time and in fact a dairy farm
that was owned by the Donnelly famlly. And it consisted of a larger parcel than
what we now are submitting to you this evening in the planned unit development.
And it was grazed a lot in certaln areas and it was not grazed in others. So
there are certain tree stands that, there's nothing here that's stunning.
There's no big woods or anything like that but there certainly are some 11ttle
areas of groupings of trees that are worth spending some time at trying to save
them. For us because there are so few trees, we work very, very hard to try to
same them. And the wetlands are interspersed in a somewhat unusual way
primarily because of the topography that I described to you earller. The
initial plans that we submitted to the staff and they reviewed them and they
came back wlth some ldeas on how they thought that we may minlmlze some of the
grading and maybe lessen some of the impact on certain vegetated areas. We
embraced those ideas to the extent that we were able to. Oftentimes at thls
conceptual stage I might add, you don't really get into exactly which tree is
going to go and whlch one lsn't. You get 1nrc that more in the deslgn stage.
The final design stage. But the diligence of the staff, they're trying to get
as much of that up front, at this polnt in time as possible so we've worked wlth
18
City Council Heeting- September 14, 1992
them and identified those things and we've actually changed the grading plan
that has been submitted just wtthin the last few days as part of the preliminary
plat whlch you'll be seetng shortly, to mtnimlze that. So that kind of glves
you a general idea of the site from that direction. I'm not sure if I need to
go any further. You can really see the topography on this particular shot. Now
again, why are we doing this as a PUO. Anytime you have such constraints like
thls, I have a couple optlons. What I can do is what I sald earlier, and we've
actually developed this plan. We didn't bring it to show £t to you because we
knew you wouldn't want it anyway but we do have thls plan. I could make all the
lots 15,000 square feet. Make them all exactly 90 feet at the setback. I could
get more lots on thls site than are in this proposal and I could maintain my
setbacks from the wetlands and the streets and sideyards and everything, but
what you would end up wlth lsa vanllla subdivision. Every lot would look
identical to the next lot. There'd be more grading than what you're seeing on
thls proposal and it just wouldn't certainly be what we would want to propose to
the City or what we know that our buyer types would want. You look at the other
neighborhoods we've done in your community, Near Mountaln in particular, and we
look at that and we see a bunch of mtstakes there. I mean we see a lot of
thlngs that we would never do today. We would do a much better job. And yet
that's still recognized, even today as a nat£onally acclaimed neighborhood
community and it st111 gets coverage. But we see a lot of mlstakes there so
what we're trying to do is get better at it. But the reason we do the PUO is to
cover the issues that we've just addressed and actually wlth your staff, it's
refreshing because they come back to us with ideas that, l£ke reduced front yard
setbacks, whlch we normally propose. I've never proposed that here in
Chanhassen because I've never rece£ved or had it embraced by the Planntng
Commission or Counc11. But we do it in every other community we work in. Staff
came back with the idea here because they know it will help keep the structures
away further from the wetland. It will save a bunch of trees and thlngs 11ko
that. Those are very creative solutions to problems we're all trying to solve.
Let me see who has, okay I've got some of my consultants here with me. The
question regarding lot s£ze. I think I'm gotng to defer that to John Uban and
John can address lot size. And just for their benefit, being that they've just
received here, there's been some questions asked right up front due to lot size
and why are the lots the way that they are. There were questions about the
status of the petition for public improvements and I think the consultants are
here for the city. They can probably address that better than we can. There
was discussion about the neighborhood meeting. Cul-de-sac £slands and
assessments on neighbors. Before I give up the podium.to John Uban, I'll just
tell you a little bit about the neighborhood meetings. As most of you probably
know, we typically always have a neighborhood meeting or even more than one on
every neighborhood community we develop. And really it's because we sometimes
learn something from them. We find out what they don't 11ko.and what they do
like and we think that it actually saves time, not just for us but it saves time
for the Plannlng Commission and the Council because we try to.address the lssues
before we come before you. There were some concerns by 3 or.4 neighbors about
certain thlngs, primarily related to drainage. A couple neighbors sald that
they would prefer that they would all be acreage lots and that's a normal
concern that you see on any growing community that's urbanizing. But generally
speaking, I felt that the neighbors felt that it was a good neighborhood
community. I have not had anybody come forth and say, we just oppose it and we
don't want it to there period. I have not heard that as of this date. Related
to the lslands, cul-de-sac lslands and assessments, I think ~e'11 get to that in
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
a minute but right now I'd like to introduce John Uban from Dahlgren, Shardlow
and Uban. He is our planner. He's a principle with the firm and he has
designed thls and worked very closely with our flrm and staff in puttlng thls
proposal to you this evening. Now for the benefit of the audience and for the
Council, we have a considerable amount of overhead transparencies to probably
address the questions that you're going to have related to setbacks, wetlands,
trees, thlngs 11ke that. And just give us a couple seconds. We'll put the,
John I think we can put the overhead rlght up here like we dld at the
neighborhood meeting and use them simultaneously if we need to.
John Uban: What I'd like to go through wlth you, if you can see our overhead
projection. The baslc elements of deslgn. Why lt's designed the way it is..How
the road system and the lots work together and how it works with the topography
of the land. Then how our lot sizes work. Primarily we wanted a road system
that absolutely trled to miss all the wetlands and natural features and would
wind it's way through the area and actually attach, and we've looked at the
adjacent property so it gives access on over to CR 117. This curvalinear road
system moves through the area and crosses between these two wetlands on a 11ttle
bridge. It's about the only place you can get through. There's some beautiful
plnes that have been planted with the prevlous homestead and we're savlng those
as an entry feature. Moving on across missing this wetland area in here.
Moving up to the north and sklmmlng across the southern end of thls wetland and
onward to the very northeast corner. And at this point it lines up to miss the
wetlands on the other slde whlch are on the Song property. A large one down
through this area, and another large one to the north. So it's designed very
specifically to work wlth the land. In addition, we're worklng back 1nrc the
property where we can with a curvalinear road system. It's roiling. We're
mlsslng these wetland pockets. The whole southern edge ls wetland up in thls
area. That's why we have the cul-de-sac and it's very..., it's rolling. So
these follow the ridge 11nes and then it drops 1nrc steep valleys that feed this
wetland. The same with thls wetland. This little area works it way back up
between these two and thls works out on a 11ttle pennlsula that's all surrounded
by wetlands. So the road system is designed specifically to flt with the land.
Also, lt's curvallnear and what we don't want are a lot of stralght roads where
all the houses 11ne up the same and we drive down and you see fronts of houses
that sort of march down the street 11ke soldlers or a commercial development or
something. We want it to curve so as you enter the subdivision, you focus on
thls nlce woods and area. There's a big beautiful oak tree rlght here. We're
going to create a bridge effect and then you focus on that and curve around here
and you focus on these plnes and then these houses, and we're keeping the
existing home in place too. They start coming off all in different positions so
that there are no homes that just 11ne up with the next one. So we're dolng
that all throughout. And the curvalinear patterns were important. And what
that creates in the cul-de-sacs are of course lots that are ple shaped. And
because of the curvalinear system, we have very few perfectly rectangular lots.
They all have lots wlth slde lot 11nes that come in at angles. And because of
that, we have a varlety of ways of working with setbacks, sideyards, front
yards, to make that all work. And it's really, that flexibility we're looking
for in a PUO. The lot slze of the smallest lot out here, without wetland in it,
the smaller bulldable yard and lot lsa little over 10,000 square feet whlch ls.
But the average lot size overall is 23,000. So we really have a lot of large
lots in here and then some small ones. So what we need ls diversity and that's
what we like to work with also. The diversity is good for attracting a number
2O
City Council Heeting - September 14, 1992
of types of homeowners. It isn't all just one kind of home. It provides a
variety of experiences. Wooded lots. Lots that look out. Lots that are flat
and will have garden spaces in the backyard. All of that works together and ts
created specifically for diversity. We think that's very important. And so our
lot lines and how we measure the width of the lots varies. What we're looking
for is some flexibility that not all lots would have at the setback line of 20
feet, not all of them would have a 90 foot width and that only happens though at
lots that are on the ends of cul-de-sacs where the pie shape moves in becomes
narrow right at the cul-de-sac. But it gets very wide as it moves out and all
you have to do is move the house back, sometimes only 5 feet beyond the
calculated setback and we have 90 feet more. And those lots also incidentally
are larger than all the other lots. They're the largest lots but they just
happen to be the narrowest when you count the setback right at the road. So
it's that pattern and that flexibility so that we still get that 90 foot width
but only by moving the house back or just moving the garage back with an offset
which makes it work very well. That design has worked out excellently...
Terry Forbord: The interesting phenomena about that, and anytime you Iook at,
and I get caught up doing this myseIf when I'm working on this, and I think even
at one time we prepared an exhibit for the Council or the PIanntng Commission of
a neighborhood Itke that without any lot iines. So if you just Iooked up there
and you didn't see any iot iines, that's what you're going to see when you drive
through the neighborhood. You're not going to see lines on the ground. It's
going to look just like a neighborhood. Now, the other thing that you have to
remember is the minimum Iot size that has been quoted to you of 10,000+ square
foot is of the upIand area. The iot itseif is iarger than that but the staff
often times tries to show the CounciI that that is excIusive of wetIand. Now as
you know, many of the Iots in Chanhassen have what is today considered wetland.
I wouid say a lot of Iots tn the city of Chanhassen have and if you took out
those iots what is wetIands, you'd find many Iots very, very smaii. So the iot
that has been expressed to you as being that size, is exclusive of that. The
other question that was asked is reiated to cuI-de-sac isiands and medians.
think what we'II do is just very briefIy teIi you a Iittie bit about that. I've
got a few pictures that I can show you and the reason that we've never presented
them to you before is because, just candidiy speaking with members of the City,
we didn't think that the City would embrace them. We were quite surprised to
find that the Planning Commission, the majority of the Pianning Commission sa£d
that they'd always wanted to do, or they wanted for a Iong time to have
cui-de-sac isIands and medians and I didn't even know that. But we have never
brought them forth to you before. We have done them in other neighborhoods
before and we're finding now that cities are asking us to do them where they had
not before. And the reason is very simpIe. As you all know the movement afoot
for less impervious material on the ground. Less pavement. Subdivisions not
designed for cars. Subdivisions that has more green space. Things that set
them apart from what is normaI. Now there's obviousIy, there's some difficuIty
in embracing that for many cities. PrimariIy by the public works department and
often times by pubIic safety. But if you go to communities iike BurnsviIie
where they've been doing isiands for years and years and years and if Roger
Knutson was here tonight he'd tell you because he's worked in that community for
years. Decades and Burnsville aimost demands them. They want them in their
cuI-de-sacs. Now you have to remember some of the reasons they don't Iike it is
because they say, well. If you were going to turn around with a vehicIe in
there, the island wouId be in the way. WeIi that's not true becuase they never
21
City Council Meeting -- September 14, 1992
get close to the island. If a vehicle's so big such as a moving van. Have you
ever see a moving van turn around in a cul-de-sac? They can't. Even one
without an island. They can't do it. They have to stop and back up and then go
once again and they can get out. So the island has nothing to do with a moving
van being able to turn around because they can't turn around anyway. The other
issue that typically comes up is snow removal. And I used to contract in the
city of Plymouth, myself in my business to plow their snow and I plowed areas
that they had islands in and it is different than plowing a normal cul-de-sac
but the neat thing about it is, you don't have to plow the area where the island
is because that has storage capacity for snow all by itself. And the other
thing is usually you go further on the outside of the cul-de-sac and you blade
that to the outside. When you make your other pass, you blade that on the
inside and there's storage capacity on that island. Now the down side to
islands, if somebody was trying to figure out, well what is it that ue should be
worried about. One is obviously maintenance. Who's going to take care of it
because I've seen personally some very unsightly cul-de-sac islands because
there was no mechanism set up to maintain them and keep the weeds out of them
and all that other stuff. Well, as you probably guessed, we're having a
homeowners association in this PUD that's being presented to you, not unlike in
what ue do in other neighborhoods because there's a lot of open space. There's
a lot of entrance monumentation and plantings and things like that that have to
be maintained and the islands would be maintained by the homeowners association.
Now it's important to design these so they take as little maintenance as
possible, and I'm going to show you a couple of examples. Here's an example of
a median. Hany of you have seen medians before. You probably have a few in the
city. I think that it's important to note that the medians that we're going to
have are right at the entry. This is a neighborhood community and basically the
purpose of this slide is 3ust to show you that they can look very nice. I don't
know if any of you have ever been up to Carlson Parkway by the Carlson Companies
corporate offices and I had a slide that I didn't bring it tonight, but medians
can really change the feel of what roadways look like. And I think there's a
lot of interest. The discussion on the Highway 5 Task Force that's been debated
around this community for the last few years and I've heard a lot of people say
that it's very important to them how that roadway looks. What is the impression
of the community going to be when you're driving through it? The median
certainly softens the impact of the roadways. I don't know if you're going to
be having planted medians on Highway 5 into the business district of the city
but I think you can probably get the gest of what I'm saying. When you put
landscaping and green space or lighting and flowers or anything like that in a
roadway, it really softens the impact. This is a picture of a cul-de-sac
lsland. This is taken from a helicopter. Thls particular lsland, I don't know
if you can see it from where you are, but it has a curb. A surmountable curb
around it. It also then has what ls called rush. Whlte river rock. Hany of
you have probably used this for a landscaping element around your home. Around
your shurbs. And then it has the small boulder retaining wall that goes around
it and then there are the types of the plantings in the middle of this that are
fairly easy to take care of. They don't take a lot of maintenance. They're
durable and in the case of the evergreens, they're green year round. And this
ls not exactly the type of plantlng materials we would probably put here for the
way we would do it. We'd put the emphasis on evergreens and things that are
green all the tlme and then maybe have some lower bushes in front of them that
in the summertime they bud and perhaps even flower. Now underneath all this
rock is fabric to keep the weeds from growlng through it and because there's no
22
City Council Meeting - September
grass here, many of you may have seen medians and cul-de-sac lslands that have
grass. Obviously somebody needs to maintain those and .what we would propose
would be something of a lower maintenance. Something that softens the lmpact of
the pavement. Because if you've ever looked, tf you've ever flown over a
community, cul-de-sacs are these huge things of pavement and they just sit there
and they're really quite ugly. So we think that this does soften it. Here's
one at ground level. The reason I'm showlng you this sllde ls probably the
first thing you'll notice if you take a look at it for a few minutes. What do
you normally see when you drive into a cul-de-sac? In today's architecture,
because of what people can afford as far as design. The first thing you're
going to notice is boy, there sure are a lot of garage doors looking at me. And
agaln, it's ugly. Garage doors are not a beautiful element of a house. The
other buying points of a house that people like, the roofllne, the point of
entry, window treatments, things ltke that, maybe some specialty windows. Those
are the things that capture the eye and are aesthetically pleasing. But because
of the economics of construction today and because all the lots can no longer
afford to be large lots where you spread that house out really wide, we flnd
that people having to put the garage out in front. Shorten the distance of the
pavement to the home because that helps save cost, etc, etc. You certainly can
see by coming into this cul-de-sac that really the first thing you see is that
there's a lot of really nice landscaping done on the island. And that's exactly
what we would propose, or something very similar to it. Is any of you are
famlllar wlth our entrances, we're getting better at it. We think we've done a
fairly good job but we're actually getting better. This is a new one in
Plymouth called Churchhi11 Farms. And this one has a median in the middle to
the entrance. It's quite a grand entrance. The theme of it is thoroughbred
raclng and has an authentic rail fence that you may see at a Kentucky farm and
it has this type of little gingerbread design on the monuments and a lot of
flowers and things 11kw that. And you can see thls median right here. This is
all irrigated and there will be flags' An American flag, and on the other flag
poles going in we'll have a Minnesota and another flag'that's going tn will have
the logo of the development. And the same thing is repeated on both sides and
then we planted all of these trees to make kind of a promenade into the
neighborhood community .... point of arrival and as this matures and fully
develops, lt's tremendously dramatic. And we think that it makes a statement
that identifes the project and is really quite nice. Now because we're coming
off of a major trunk highway, Highway 41, we think lt's important immediately to
address that and if you looked at the site plan that you have, one of the other
things we're learning to do over the last 5-& years is that we don't put any
lots right at the entrance. Right when you come in, we could put a lot right
behind that fence and one on the other side. We put outlots in there now and we
keep those houses back in there and try to keep them at least 150 feet, 175 feet
into the development so when you come in you get this feeltng of open space. You
get to see flowers. Everything's taken care of. Somebody's maintained it and
it certainly is a feel that if we were unable to do those thlngs, they wouldn't-
have the same effect. This is just the flip side of that entrance. Some of the
other thlngs as part of the PUD that we're able to do that we probably couldn't
do under standard subdivision, is we can put in Iittle park areas. Now some of
you may have some questions about the private park later on here. What we have
found, and we've done this before, right away. One of the very first thing that
ue do, once it's platted and we open up the neighborhood communities, we put in
these facilities. Typically as you know, in the park plans, the park, usually
the people are all there and then the parks get developed'because the clty just
23
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
doesn't have that kind of money in their budgets to go out and put in aii kinds
of extra little features that they may like to. They just don't have the money.
What we're proposing, we go in and we build a tennis court ourselves. This righ
there a $27,000.00 play structure. We put in the volleyball courts. We do all
that stuff right away and we still pay a park dedication fee. So what we're
doing is we're providing a little something special in the neighborhood right up
front and the real benefit for that is, it isn't just for the city in
alleviating some of the pressures on the park system. 8ut really we do it for
the benefit of the people who buy homes from us. When it comes time, for them
it's an investment. When it comes time for them to sell their home, what's
going to give them that special advantage that the other homes that are for sale
on the market don't have. And if you go through the other neighborhoods that ue
have these type of play structures in, you can go by there any time of the day
and there's mothers out there, or fathers for that matter, with their kids and
there's people playing tennis at any time of the day. And those are all
maintained by the homeowners association and it's a real plus on the resale
value of those homes. I know that you have some questions related to
assessments and to the public improvements. I think at this time I would defer
those questions to the city's consultants and then I have an exhibit here when
they're done that I'd like to just pass out to each one of you and put it up on
the overhead. Basically going through the recommendations because there's just
a few things we'd like clarified and a couple of items we'd like to share with
you. So at this time I think I'd defer the issue about assessments and the
status of the public improvements that have been petitioned to the consultants
and then I'm available to answer, or my consultants are, to answer any of the
questions that you may have. Whether they're engineering, wetlands, or planning
matters.
Phil Gravel: We will be at the September 28th meeting to present the public
improvement...and there will be some proposed assessments for the area...not
lncluded in thls development that are, most of them are green acres so we're
assuming that some of the same standards that you've taken on like the Bluff
Creek project...only one unlt assessments. The small homes...
Councilman Workman: So there are single family homes adjacent that are going to
be assessed?
Mayor Chmiel: Could be, yes.
Councilman Workman: Hook up charge?
Phil Gravel: Like the Song parcel...Properties to the east of this.
Councilman Workman: Are those people all aware of that?
Phil Gravel: They'll be noticed. We're planning on having a neighborhood
meetlng in early October before the publlc hearing uhlch would probably be...
Councilwoman Oimler: I have one question on the assessments too that doesn't
really relate to other properties but your own properties on the pla shaped
lots. The configuration there where they have very little front footage but the
lot gets blgger as it goes back. They're only assessed for the road on the
front footage and so what you're actually having there is that the large lots
24
City Council Meeting - September
are paying less and some of the smaller lots would have more front footage. Is
that a problem for your own assessment rolls or has that been in other
developments?
Terry Forbord: Mr. Mayor, the improvements in the neighborhood, when people buy
a home from us. All the assessments are in and paid. They buy a package from
us. They buy the home, the lot and everything ls lncluded in the sale price of
that so there isn't, they don't get hit with that additional assessment later
On.
Counciluoman Dimler: Okay, so that's not likely to be a problem in the future?
Terry Forbord: No, no. It's a package of what they buy.
Councilwoman Dimler: It will be though when the road's redone.
Terry Forbord: I'm sure the city has a policy in how they deal with local
neighborhood, residential communities.
Councilwoman Oimler: That's why I asked.
Terry Forbord: I'm sure it's consistent. ! would hope that it would be and
this project wouldn't be treated any differently.
Councilwoman Oimler: Yeah, but we did have some problems. That's why I asked
the question.
Terry Forbord: Okay. Hopefully, I wish I could tell you these roads last
forever and they never need any maintenance but that would be a lie.
Councilwoman Dlmler: Thank you.
Terry Forbord: Are there any other questions that I may address or would you
like me to put the items up on the screen for clarification? '
Councilwoman Oimler: Yeah, could you explain and again, I liked your cul-de-sac
presentation but I did ask about the safety lmpact there. Zt looks to me like
that if you have parking then, if you allow street parking for visitors and
whoever, there mlght be a safety problem as far as safety vehicles gettlng
through. Can you address that as to what other communities are experiencing?
Terry Forbord: I think ! could best let John Uban address that. He could do it
better than I could.
John Uban: On the cul-de-sacs, it really won't work any differently than your
existing cul-de-sacs in the city when it comes to parking. Around the
cul-de-sac you notice that the driveways are closer together. But the driveways
themselves hold quite a few cars in addition to what's in the garage. And we
have not ever found a situation in whlch a cul-de-sac itself really gets parked
up beyond a reasonable sort of level. What is nice about an island, it actually
helps control the parking. It deflnes and makes the cul-de-sac look more like a
typical street going around in a circle. And it maintains the same width of
street all the way around so it isn't substandard in any respect and actually we
25
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
think it works better because it better defines the street edge and allows for
better organization of traffic just from looking at it.
Councilwoman Oimler: And is all your curbing surmountable, in the proposed
development?
John Uban: Yes. We would like it to be that way.
Councilwoman Dimler: Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other questions at this particular time? Tom.
Councilman Workman: Only, what was the, we have an outlet through the Song
property. How does that jlbe with future development? They just have to accept
that as a connecting polnt or how does that connect?
Paul Krauss: It's really, whoever goes first cast the die for how this will
happen but we've done a lot more than that. We've had a meeting with the
Song's, Mr. Forbord and I and their engineers meet with the Song's 3-4 months
ago when it became clear that this was where the road was going to go. We asked
thelr consultant, John Uban to sketch out an alignment that made sense that
missed the wetlands. We basically had a need to connect the two points. We
know we needed continuity between TH 41 and Galpln. Early on in the process we
realized this is not the kind of terraln that you plow a road that looks like
Lake Lucy through. It just was much too hilly and we'd lose a lot to do that so
we wanted the continuity and then It became a question of where to put it and
there really was only one locatlon that lent itself to the continuity and that's
where it is right now.
Terry Forbord: I thlnk it's fair to say, and some of you know this. If you
just would stop and think about it for a minute but we've been working on this
now for 3 1/2 years and we've actually worked very closely wlth the Song family
on the alignment of that road. And the city has been, has really klnd of asked
us to take the initiative and flgure out, okay we know thls road's got to go
here someday. So let's figure out the way that it can be done with having the
least lmpact on the area and they helped provlde us ulth data and aerlal
photography and topography so we could determ£ne where that future roadway would
be. And the exhlblt that you see on the screen rlght now ls very close to
where that road would end up belng.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. Paul, getting back to those street widths. As you're well
aware, in some of the subdivisions that have been constructed and built up, the
given problems that we're having with parklng on streets and some of the
accessibility of emergency vehicles getting to these. Do you see much problem
here if the parking ls done, and lt's going to happen. I don't care how hard
you try. What's going to be a problem for us as a city?
Paul Krauss: Well, we're not looking at reducing the pavement widths here.
Charles, what are ue looking on the collector street portion.
Charles Folch: It's still a 3~ foot wlde street. The right-of-way ls what's
been proposed-to be reduced from 80 to 60. But the pavement width will actually
remaln the same. Or remain the standard.
26
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
Paul Krauss: So from what the eye sees and what the car parks on, it's not
going to be any different than an oversized actually street elsewhere. There's
also not all the homes front on that street. Relatively few actually do. The
people parking in the streets more than likely will be parking next to the homes
on the cul-de-sacs.
Mayor Chmlel: If and when those homes go in and closely situated as they were,
with the driveways coming in, what total numbers of cars can be parked in that
drive and what is the dlstance of that drlve from the garage back out to the
street?
Terry Forbord: Okay, every particular situation is different because it depends
on the type of, if you've ever looked at it like.
Mayor Chmlel: The lots themselves.
Terry Forbord: Not even Just that. But have you ever looked at a plan, v£ew of
a plan, what does the footprint look 11ke. We have a repertoire of probably 25
different floor plans that would be available to people in here and everyone
looks a 11ttle different and some of them, the garage is forward a 11ttle blt
more and some of them, the garage ts back a little bit. But I think it's fair
to say that most cars, excuse me, most homes and driveways have a stacking
capability for a minimum, I mean in a worst case scenario, even if you had a 20
foot front yard setback, which on some of these lots ls being recommended by
staff and we agree with that, that you'd probably have a stacking capability of
2 cars in the drlveway and then you have 2 cars probably in the garage or maybe
even 3, depending on the style of home or if the people elected to have a 3 car
garage. In that case, then the drlveway would be even wider and then maybe
you'd have a stacking capability of 3. But more typically it's not uncommon to
have a stacklng of 4 cars ina driveway. It just depends on the given
situation.
Mayor Chmlel: And I keep looklng back at a couple of the subdivisions, the
problems that we're having now. It's the same situation where the driveways do
not have the capaclty to keep the vehicles there. Before you know lt, they have
4 cars and maybe they have 4 children. They have 6 cars and there isn't room
enough wlthln those driveways to park these vehtcles and they're parked on the
street. You get that with adjacent neighbors. They may not be quite as
prollflc withln those families but, there is some of those problems that ! see
concerns with that I see happening within town right now. And then they come
back and we declde maybe we're not going to put no parklng on one side. Well
they don't want that because they have no place to really park. But yet the
problem that comes back to me, as I stated before, is the accessibility of
having our fire department or pol£ce department. Fire department's more my
concern, because we're not providing them the proper amount of space for them to
get to their destination. And I can see where it could come back to the city
and make us liable because we approved basically what went in and not giving
enough room on those streets.
Terry Forbord: Yeah, the streets in our proposal are no smaller than any other
neighborhood street that is currently within the city and there may be some that
are even smaller. You may have some that have some reduced road widths. Well
even the road right out in front of City Hall is a quite narrow roads but the
27
City Council Meeting - September
roads in these neighborhoods would be larger than the road in front of City
Hall. I don't think, and maybe Charles or Paul can add to this but I don't
believe that there's a street or a situation in this proposed neighborhood
community that jeopardizes the public safety any more than any other
neighborhood community would.
Charles Folch: Related to the collector street, 36 foot width allows for
parklng on both sldes.
Mayor Chmiel: It provides parking on both sides of the 36 feet. The average
width of a car is 5 feet? Oepending. Give some, take some. Okay, so that's
feet. Richard, what's the slze of the englnes golng through?
Councilman Wing: They're 8 footers.
Mayor Chmiel: Pardon me?
Councilman Wing: Most of them are maximum width, 8 footers.
Mayor Chmiel: 8 footers. Okay.
Councilman Wing: Don, I guess I don't see a problem. And even with these
cul-de-sacs, you can get it near a cul-de-sac. There's no problem wlth the hose
lengths at that point.
Mayor Chmiel: And I was thinking mainly of our main engine.
Councilman Wing: The big one.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. It could give us problems. I guess I've had some of my
questions.
Terry Forbord: Your Honor, I'm going to pass out some materlal that I'm golng
to put up on the screen and it's just a copy of the recommendations of staff and
just to get some clarification and address a couple things that the Plannlng
Commission are requesting and hopefully answer some questions. The purpose of
this is basically what we have here is what ls before you in your
recommendations and the bold items underneath each item are just my responses to
those things and we're requesting a couple items be deleted. The flrst item ls
on the recommendation ls reduce the amount of tree removal currently proposed
through reduction of gradlng, use of retaining walls, removal and shortening of
cul-de-sacs, different housing styles, lowerlng of street grades, and
reconflguration of lot sizes and locations. The applicant has met wlth staff
and considered their recommendations where possible. Altering the grading plan,
utilizing retaining walls on home sltes, reconflgurlng lot lines, whle still
keeping with the applicant's design. And the applicant does not wish to delete
the cul-de-sac H and replace it with a prlvate road. And I've asked that those
ltems in number 1 be deleted. If we could put up the site plan just briefly
John. There was some discussion and some concern about the connection of two
roadways in this neighborhood community. John, if you could just point to
those. That is I belleve I and J. Is that correct?
John Uban: G. I and G.
28
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
Terry Forbord: I and G. Now it's really quite simple why we are submitting
these as cul-de-sacs. And the cul-de-sac debate, all of you have heard on
numerous tlmes before I'm sure throughout your tenure as public officials and
really, and you've heard me talk about it before and I won't belabor the issue
but we create neighborhood communities. We design them to be safe. What we
really want are these little individual neighborhoods and alcoves that
cul-de-sacs really offer you and 99.9 people out of 100 would prefer to live on
a cul-de-sac. So what we do, if you recall when I was showing you the aerial
photography and I was showing you where that ravine was and then the hill went
back up and then the ravine went down again. John or Ken, can you kind of show
where those are there?
John Uban: Here is one ravlne through here. There's another ravine down
through here so this is a hill and then it drops down and once again you have
this area between these two wetlands. So it drops down and then it drops down
again into here.
Mayor Chmiel: What's the height from one end to the other?
Terry Forbord: Pardon me?
Mayor Chmiel: You're talking with the ravines going down.
John Uban: Some of these ravines are what, 30 feet or so approximately.
Through here and here and ! really don't know, it's 90 to 100 feet probably the
full distance.
Terry Forbord: And so all we typically do and this also helps eliminate some
grading, is we try to put where the houses and the roads are going to be on the
hlghest parts and have as many walkouts as we posstbly can because agatn, 99~ of
the people would prefer walkout if we could make it available to them. Yes, you
could connect a lot of roads in there. We just think it makes a better
neighborhood and there's issues on both sides of the fence on that and that's
why I'm asking you to allow us to proceed as it's proposed. We don't feel that
it's really a safety issue. There's no documented evidence anywhere in the
Unlted States, there's never been a death anywhere documented that somebody died
as a result of a cul-de-sac that was too long. I mean that's a fact and the
Urban Land Znstltute will tell you that and any other organization that follows
these types of things. But that's for your consideration and we would just ask
that that 1rem be deleted. Ztem number 2, provlde a detailed tree removal plan
illustrating types, number and caliper of trees over 6 inch caliper being
removed. The applicant has submitted on September 11th a tree removal
tabulation chart for the site. A more detailed plan wtll be developed during
the final deslgn stage of each development phase, and I believe that-our
consultants have discussed that wtth staff and I think that meets thetr
satisfaction. Number 3, revise the lot areas.by removlng wetland area from the
calculations. The applicant has submitted those revisions on September 11th.
Ztem number 4. Oemonstrate that each lot is able to accommodate a 60 x 40
building pad and a 12 x 12 deck wlthout intruding into any required setback area
or protective easement. And we have submitted that information to the staff as
well and you'll be seeing that information as part of the preliminary plat
application, if you haven't already received it. Item number 5, revlse lot
wldths so that each lot has a minimum of 90 feet at the building setback. Or
29
City Council Heeling - September 14, 1992
provide justification that the required buildable area can be accomplished. We
would like to delete the first part of that sentence. We've submitted drawings
and narrative and other examples on charts describing how this can occur and we
certainly could meet the 90 foot if we just move the houses back anywhere from
to 8 feet and then we'd be at 90 feet. Remember that the lots that aren't at 90
feet are the ones that happen to be in the cul-de-sac and they're not 90 feet at
the setback but we could just push that house back a little more and it would be
90 feet, and also those are the largest lots. Number 6, we've submitted
information to answer that. Number 7, we've done the same there. Number 8, I'm
going to just talk to you a little bit about that in case you have any
questions. The ordinance requires a 10 foot sideyard setback. The intent of
the ordinance is typically to make sure that there's 20 feet between each
structure. What we have asked for, and I believe staff accepts that and is
recommending that they accept it, is that we are allowed some flexibility to
shift that house back and forth for the simple example is if there's a large
tree on one part of the lot. Give some flexibility so that home can move back
and forth. So in other words, it's the same thing that we've done on other
neighborhood communities for the same reason. And we're asking for a minimum
setback of 9 feet on the house side, 6 feet on the garage side but at no time
ever will there be 20 feet, less than 20 feet between structures. And the other
neighborhoods we've developed over 300 homes with this exact same arrangement in
other neighborhoods. And the minimum ends up being 20 but the vast majority of
them are even greater than 20 feet between structures. Primarily because if you
remember the way the site plan looks, the roads are moving and so just because
of the way the houses get situated on the lot, it's not like a bunch of homes
just lined up in a row. Every home's tiled, angled and things like that so you
typically end up with far greater than 20 feet. 20's the minimum. Number
The applicant accepts the staff recommendation. Number 10, same. Number
locate the extension for watermain service along the east side of Trunk Highway
41. Nov I believe that our consulting engineer has talked to the engineering
dspartment and the reason that they asked for that recommendation is they
thought there was going to be a berm built along Highway 41. Well if you're
familiar with the site at all, the topography drops off dramatically downward
from Highway 41 and so it's nearly impossible to build a berm there and have any
impact whatsoever so there isn't going to be a berm built. Staff wanted, if
there was going to be a berm built, they wanted to get that waterline in there
now before the berm got put on top of it. And so it's my understanding that
staff has decided that that's not a problem. Number 12, the applicant agrees
with the staff recommendation. Number 13, the applicant agrees with staff
recommendation. Same with 14 and lS. Item number 16. We ask that the words,
the connection of, be deleted and so that recommendation would say, review I and
G streets so it will provide a 3X or less grade for the first 50 feet. For the
reason that I've already stated to you, is that we'd like to keep those
cul-de-sacs and not link those streets. We think it makes a better
neighborhood. Number 17, I would like to delete the portion that says, delete
the center median islands on A Street and all the cul-de-sacs. We would request
that you allow us to put the medians in in the cul-de-sac island for the reasons
that I've already stated. At either way, this might be an opportunity for the
city to decide if they like the idea. I mean I don't know if you have them in
any neighborhood communities. I think that we've been diligent in the way that
we handled all of our homeowners associations in the past and the way we've
maintained our neighborhoods. This might be a good time for the city to try it.
We think that we'd do a good job and that the city'd be happy with the outcome.
3O
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
Number 18. Submit details on proposed wetland alterations, mitigation, buffer
strips, and p~otection of wetland. And then, continually submitting revised and
additional deta11 and worklng with the staff to provide the most sensitive
application as possible, and we've even submitted additional information as of
today. And those 1rems typically will be handled in the final deslgn. Number
19 is a very major problem for us. Provide "as build" locations and dimensions
of all corrected house pads or simllar documentation acceptable to the Bulldlng
Official. We have never been required of that in the city before. In all of
our neighborhoods, we're the bullder. We don't just develop it and then put a
shingle out and ask other builders to come on in and build a house without any
knowledge of what's been done in the grading and the developing and the soll
corrections. And if you were going to do an as build on every single lot, in
other words that's a cross section of what's been done on that lot for every
one, it would greatly increase the cost of developing the site and we don't feel
that lt's necessary and there's really any benefit from it. We would just ask
that you allow us to do it in a manner that we've always done it with the city
in the past.. And the last 1rem ls respond to issues raised by the Clty
Engineering and Park Oepartments. We would do everything that we possibly can
to contlnue to work wlth those various departments to answer all those questions
and supply any information that they may request. If there's any'other
questions of me or my staff, we'd be happy to address them.
Mayor Chmiel: Paul, in reviewing the comments that are here, are you tn
agreement wlth what, on some of these, are you in agreement with Mr. Forbord?
Are all these in the best interest of the city?
Paul Krauss: Well Mr. Mayor, we've been working with Lundgren Bros. on this for
quite some tlme and we think basically we have a real excellent proposal. I mean
lt's extraordinarily low density. It's protecting most of the site. Most of
it's going to remain green so fundamentally we're in agreement. Most of the
items that Terry read through are ltems that we're making good progress on. The
revised plans have been submitted to Jo Ann and we have to review them but we
thlnk we're maklng good progress. We contlnue to, I mean the only salient one
that we still continue to disagree on is whether or not those two cul-de-sacs
should be connected. I guess I'm not going to argue about ULI data but ULI is
an organization of and by and for developers. You had'situations here twice
over the summer where fundamentally Teton Lane is basically two cul-de-sacs
right now abutting up against each other where the fire truck got stuck on the
wrong side. It happens. To say it doesn't happen trivializes the information.
We agree that most people would like to live on cul-de-sacs. We don't think
we're being knee jerk and in a community like, ! believe Eden Prairie says you
can have two cul-de-sacs or three cul-de-sacs. That's it. You decide where
they're golng to go. I mean other communities do that. We do belleve that it
should be connected. The cul-de-sac right now is 1,400 feet long. Many
communities have a 500 foot limitation. We don't do that here. We try to be
more sensitive. There's 45 homes on it. So we still would prefer to have that
connected. As for the other thlngs, I thlnk we're basically in agreement on
everything. By the way, that cul-de-sac design change is one that can be
incorporated very simply. I mean there's no questlon it doesn't have a major
impact on the layout of the subdivision. As to the"islands in the cul-de-sacs
in a parkway type of sense, it presents us with a 11ttle bit of a dilemma
because as planners we agree with a lot of what Mr. Forbord's saying but the
question for us, ls there a way to work that out that's acceptable to our
31
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
engineering department and to our public safety department. We hope there might
be but we'd really defer on that issue to Charles and his folks. Other than
that, I think we're pretty much in agreement.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Are there any specific questions that any of the Council
may have? Hike.
Councilman Mason: I wanted to ask about those two cul-de-sacs and that's a bone
of contention that will have to be resolved. I guess I don't have any specific
questions. I think as usual, Mr. Forbord's done an excellent job of saying what
Lundgren wants to do. I just wanted to make a comment on diversity. I'm not
quite sure how much diversity there is between a $150,000.00 home and a
$250,000.00 home. But that's my bias. Do you want some more general comments
now or do you want to wait on that?
Mayor ChmieZ: If you'd like to provide those at this time, that's be
acceptable.
Councilman Mason: I like the idea of the cul-de-sac islands. I think many of
the people on the Planning Commission did too. Certainly seeing that picture
wlth some bushes in the mlddle is very nlce. It looks as the other Lundgren
developments in this town, looks very nice on paper. I guess my other major
concern is assessments for people that don't own or are not part of the Lundgren
property, and I know there's the discussion of future benefit and what not. I
think we need to talk about that because I have some strong feellngs about that.
But it sounds 11kc the City is for the most part in agreement with what's going
on here and it looks to be pretty well done.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Tom.
Councilman Workman: I don't have a whole lot of questions. I just, we're
talking about Street I and Street G connecting? I too just have the question
rlght now. These conceptual ldeas look different to the neighbors when they
know they have an assessment. If they do or they don't. The concept can be one
of indifference if they don't have one but it can be rather ugly if they do. I
guess I'd like out consultant to ae soon as possible try to get that Information
out to the neighbors so they can maybe better assess thelr lmpact. That's all I
have.
Hayor Chmiel: Okay, Richard.
Councilman Wing: Well I like the PUD concept and my concern is, like of a PUD
ordinance. This has been how many years now we've been talking about a PUO
ordinance and if you look on page 3 or wherever it is, it talks mlnlmum lot slze
and it has the word draft. The Council still hasn't come to terms with minimum
lot slze. And I don't care if you want to declde on 5,000, lO,O00's too small
for me. I've made that clear and I think ue ought to get the PUD off the draft
stage and in the ordinance stage uhlch means to do lt, we've got to plug in one
number which ls the minimum lot size. And between the five of us, ue ought to
be able to come up wlth a number. 10,000'9 too low for me but I'm not golng to
argue it if there's a majority opinion. I thlnk we've said we don't want to go
below 15,000 but then you don't have a PUD so I want to protect the PUD
ordinance and maybe there's a compromise number that we can come up with that we
32
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
can plug into this and be part of this right now. But right now, the PUD
ordinance doesn't exist because it's a draft and we still haven't decided on
minimum lot size so I think that has to be done. 10,300. Pick a number. I
don't care anymore. I just think we've got to get off the draft stage after all
these years, at least Council should, before you people leave, take
responsibility for a minimum lot size.
Councilman Mason: Here, here. Yeah, I don't have any trouble at all with
10,000 feet. For RSF, I would strongly disagree. With the situation with Near
Mountain and what not, Z know some people that are on those small lots that are
perfectly happy.
Mayor Chmlel: And I also know some that aren't.
Councilman Wing: And I know many that are.
Councilman Mason: We'll be going back and forth on this one for a while.
Councilman Wing: It's only going to take 3 of us to say we don't like 10,000
square foot lots. Okay, 4/5. We may never get lt. Alright, PUD ordinance.
think we should address it along wtth this. At the Board, the variance Board.
What do you call that group that met at 6:00?
Councilman Workman: Board of Adjustments.
Councilwoman Dlmler: That you're part of you mean?
Councilman Wing: Carol Watson brought up a comment about that she doesn't like
the appearance that we're givlng our clty and thls ls wlth some justification,
and Paul does justify his position here as Terry did earlier, and that's our 20
foot front yard setback. And Carol commented, we go from street to curb to the
house and they're narrow. We have a very short driveway that holds 2 cars, etc,
etc. and we wlnd up with more parklng on the street. I like the appearance.
like the parking. I like the front yard of a 30 foot setback versus a 20 and
realize there's environmental concerns but if our rule ls 30 feet, and we stlck
with it, these rules evenly applied are going to come in and develop that way
and we don't have to argue about it. If there's a wetland back there, it st111
has to be protected. I wouldn't shift anything. That lot just has to be built
differently. So I don't like the 20 foot frontyard setback. I'd like to see
that maintained to 30. I think it's a better apperance. Having the houses that
close, we can talk about who likes front yards and backyards. And the backyards
are wonderful for bar-be-ques but the reality is, the ktds get on their tric's
and they head down the driveway and they head into the street. That's where the
action is and you can go through any neighborhood with children, and all the
complaints we get, lt's not the problems in thelr backyards. It's the problem
in the streets and their frontyards. A 20 foot driveway's pretty short into the
street so, my preference would be that we don't go with the 20 foot front yard
setback. I would like to maintain the cul-de-sacs. I'm happy with it. If the
flre department has to go to Street A or G or I, they know how to get there and
there's numerous cases in the city that maybe should be dealt wtth. 2190 Murray
Hill Road ls on the east side and there's no connection and 2200 is on the west
side. It's a long way around. So we've got a lot of problems like that but in
this case, if we're going to go to cul-de-sac A, we know how to get there and
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
connected or not, I don't see that as an issue. I llke the medlans. I'd urge
you to continue the medians and go ulth the cul-de-sac islands. Z think they're
classy. I've seen them. I think Terry's got some, I think they'll do it very
attractively. Paul, is that as build, you said you're happy with that? The
delete the as build, you're content with that?
Jo Ann Olsen: The language that ue put in there was that Terry had mentioned
that he had some other ways of doing that, of meeting that condition with other
cities and so ue were accepting that.
Councilman Wing: Okay. And beyond that, I feel real comfortable that Lundgren
Bros. is going first class here. This is going to be one of the nicest projects
in our clty. The setback and the cul-de-sac's I'm happy with. The medlans.
That's all I have.
Mayor Chmlel: Thank you. Ursula.
Councilwoman Oimler: Okay I asked my four questions up front. I think they did
an excellent job of answering them. I want to thank you for that. You didn't
evade any of the lssues. I like the concept here of a PUD because it does give
the clty more control. As Terry sald, that he could go ahead and develop lt.
It wouldn't look as nlce and probably get more lots so to me that makes sense to
go wlth the PUD in thls instance. I don't really have any objections to any of
their deletions. I do like cul-de-sacs. I know people prefer to live on them.
The one thlng that still remalns in my mlnd is the connection of I and G but if
Richard ls comfortable with that, being that he's on the Fire Department, then
I don't have a problem ulth that elther.
Mayor Chmiel: That's lt? Thank you.
Councilwoman Dlmler: But I do thlnk we st111 need to talk about the assessments
to existing neighbors and Z know they're going to have a meeting on that but
that lsa major concern.
Mayor Chmlel: That was the flrst thing I had was the assessments. And
secondly, I fully agree that we're golng to have to come up with a PUD ordinance
rather than going through all the, excuse the expression, Mlcky Mouse that we've
done. And I think ue should really try to determine what that figure is going
to be. Because I too don't 11ke, you know as well as I do the smaller lot slze
because there's just a lot of problems that we have to live with once those
things go ln. And a 12 x 12 deck is something that some people 11ke but there
are other people who like the 14 x 60 as well and to have it wrap around the
slde of a house and not have the proper setback requirements. If you put for
that particular pad that you put in. So those are some of the concerns that I
st111 have on that. I too don't 11ke the 20 foot setbacks. I thlnk the 30 are
probably a little more acceptable because that way there can be additional
vehlcles parked, not only in the garage but also on that driveway. And I do
really 11ke that aspect of lt. And I think I had some of the questions that I
had answered too as far as the lot sizes and the street wldths. I guess I
really don't have any problem with those islands either. I think it dresses it
up. It makes it absolutely look neat in appearance and glves a oertaln amount
of richness just to that particular area. But I know there's a given problem
ulth some of our people in dolng the snowplowing and the time that's taken away
34
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
from that to get everybody else out during the wintertime is crucial as well.
So there's some things that I live with one and look at the other and understand
their concerns. So with that, is there any other questions?
Councilman Wing: Just one clarification for Paul. On this 90 foot width.
That's not clear to me. These pies are coming in and those houses really look,
they're in like the middle of the pie and they really point at each other. Are
you buying that? Terry's proposal.
Paul Krauss: That's typical for a cul-de-sac. What Terry's proposing that we
accept, the problem comes if you assume that ail the homes are 30 feet back from
the right-of-way. If you arbitrarily say that, because this is a PUD, some of
them might have a 40 foot setback or a 35 foot setback, if you push it back to
that point, the lot's plenty wide enough to accommodate the house. We don't
have a problem doing that and in the PUD you have the flexibility to say Lots 10
thru 12 on this block are 40 foot setbacks and it works just fine.
Councilman Wing: So you're comfortable with number 5 and his deletion? The
Planning Commission looked like they put a lot of concern into that.
Councilman Mason: What's your feeling on that 20 as opposed to 30 foot?
Paul Krauss: Well, again we've been advocates of it for the flexibility it
provides. Our streets are deslgned to accommodate on street parking. If
they're not supposed to have any cars on them, let us make them narrower than we
do because we're spending a lot of money and taking down a lot of trees and
doing a lot of grading to make them wide enough to accommodate it. There is no
house that's bullt in the clty that can accommodate any less than 4 cars. Most
of them can accommodate more than that without being in the street. I'm sure
there's some cases of abuse. We had on the Board of Adjustment tonlght, Carol
was talking about people parking semi's and RV's and other things that may
probably be in violation of other parts of the City Code right now. We also
have some situations where some streets were bullt under width. I mean having
the right-of-way that we do now and the street design that we do now, is a
relatively recent phenomena. It's only been in the last 4 years, 3-4 years or
so that the streets have been that size. So I don't know on a case by case
basis where those problems are cropping up. But I know that when you take 60
feet or 80 feet for the street and then you take another 30 feet for the front
yards, and then you have to pave these long driveways down tt, that's a lot of
blacktop. It's not always, not serving a purpose all the time. It serves some
purpose. But you're really pushing out those grading limits and everything we
try to do with the PUD is cluster. So weI would support the 20 foot. And other
flexibility to reduce the amount of lmpact that development has.
Councilman Mason: Let me ask you a question Terry. I mean obviously you're in
the business to please the people that buy homes from you. What's your thought
on the 20 as opposed to 30?
Terry Forbord: In the last 30 days I've been asked that question by four City
Councils and the best way that I can answer this question is that there's a
phenomenon, many of you have already heard me say this. There's a phenomena
taking place in the marketplace of people buying homes today. Most people
nowadays are two income earning families. There's about 3 1/2, 3 to 3 1/2
35
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
people per household. And they're not sure if that's going to shrink or if it's
going to grow. Zt depends on who you talk to. And it depends on what part of
the country you're talking to and actually even there's some differential just
between parts of the Twin Cities area. But those people now, children are more
active. All the kids are playing piano or they're in soccer or hockey or,
I mean kids are more active and families are more active than at any time in the
history of man. And what our people, customers are telling us, the vast
majority. Not all. Are telling us that they do not want to spend a lot of time
maintaining lawns anymore. In fact, our company is going through a critical
self analysis right now because we have always put redwood siding on all of our
homes for 23 years. And now we are havlng people not buy homes from us because
they have to stain it and they're saying, why won't you put aluminum siding on?
Why won't you put vlnyl slding on? Now of course we offer stucco and brlck but
for the vast majorities of families, they cannot afford those types of
non-maintenance type of material. The polnt that I am maklng is we have seen a
vast, this is not just me standing before you saying give me smaller lots so I
can have more of them. Our customers are saylng, they don't want large lots.
They don't want to malntain them. If they have any time at all on the weekend,
they want to spend it with their famlly. Now that does not mean that everybody
feels that way. What we're seeing is 10% to 20~ of the people that are moving
from somewhere else. Maybe they're movlng from inner clty or maybe they're
moving from Richfield, or maybe they're movlng from another community where they
want a 11ttle more open space and they want the blgger lot. We still have some
of those people and that's why, if you look at the proposal that's before you,
we try to have a varlety in there and we don't want all the small lots in the
open areas and all the lots in the wooded area, if possible. Even though from
an environmental standpoint there may be some benefit to that because we find
some people want a small lot in a wooded area. Or a large lot in an open area.
The kid's on the football team. He's a quarterback and he wants to be able to
run and whatever. So that's why we try to have a variety but it is an
interesting phenomena. And lt's taking place all over the country. Not just
here. And so all we've tried to do as business people is react to what is it
that the buyers are telllng us that they want. Okay, now how do you do that and
do it tastey? And make it so it doesn't feel like a streetscape in South
Minneapolis where the setbacks from the sideyards are 5 feet. And you've got
homes 10 feet together. And they're all in a row. That's one of the reasons if
you've notlced in our subdivisions you see thls undulating serpentine roadways
and if you just drive down a street that looks like that, you can't tell by
drivlng down in your car how close those homes are. I know nobody can. I
can't, and I've developed them. I can't tell unless I got out. Now if they
were all 11ke 11ttle soldlers rlght next to each other in a stralght 11ne, yeah
then you could probably tell. You'd say boy, they look awfully close. So I
don't know if that's answered your questlon but I do know from a demand
standpoint, what our customers are telling us they want. I do know from an
environmental standpoint, the flexibility that's allowed by that type of
setback, front yard, side yard, rear yard is definitely, if used correctly and
applied correctly, ls environmentally sound. There's no question about that.
That's the benefit of the PUD. It gives you flexibility. Now if a city decided
that they dldn't want PUD's and they wanted them all to be standard
subdivisions, they'd all look allke. There'd be very 11ttle diversity and
there'd be far more grading and far much more tree loss and all those types of
things so, those are the benefits. And interestingly enough, in Chestnut Ridge
9th Addltlon in the Near Hountaln PUD, those are 8,500 square foot lots.
36
City Council Meeting - September 14, lgg2
They're wooded lots and I would imagine that if people went up there and looked,
they'd be shocked. They wouldn't believe me if I told them they were 8,500
square foot lots with 55 foot width lots. Most people would never say that.
And they're very successful. There's probably 60 homes up there like that and
I bet most people didn't even know that because it doesn't look like it. So the
point ls, it becomes a perception in people's minds that if you have this much
width, then lt's bad. But if you went out and looked at it, you might say, geez
that doesn't look so bad. I can't see the line on the ground. The homes look
nlce so a lot of it depends on how lt's done. If you've done a good job in the
way you've laid it out. I hope I didn't talk too much.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other questions? If not, I would accept the motion to
carry through with some of the thoughts and some of the recommendations, or not
recommendations for thls concept approval.
Councilman Wing: I didn't hear any, if we accept the applicant's changes which
were approved by staff, I would so move PUD ~g2-4 with the changes requested by
the applicant as approved by staff.
Councilwoman Dlmler: I second that.
Councilman Wing: Numbers 1 thru
Mayor Chmiel: 20.
Councilwoman Oimler: And 20.
Councilman Wing: What did I miss? Oh excuse me, 1 thru 20.
Councilwoman 0imler: I'll second it.
Mayor Chmlel: Okay, it's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion?
Councilman Mason: Where does that leave the I thru
Mayor Chmiel: I think that's something that ts st111 in staff's hands. And
we're not saying that we're not going.
Councilwoman Olmler: No, we deleted it in this motion.
Councilman Wing: Yes, they remain cul-de-sacs.
Mayor Chmiel: It will remain as cul-de-sacs?
Jo Ann Olsen: That's if you're accepting.
Mayor Chmiel: That is if we are accepting. Still staff has some concerns with
that.
Jo Ann Olsen: We're not going to beat on a dead horse.
Paul Krauss: The purpose of bringing it up here is, I mean we've made our
position clear throughout but the Planning Commission had a difference of
37
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
opinion and we'll go with whatever you tell us. I thlnk the developer here, and
we're looking for some guldance tonight as to would you prefer that it be left
alone or be brought back as a thru street.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Would you llke to restate that?
Councilman Workman: I'd 11ke it left alone.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay.
Councilwoman Olmler: So in other words, accept the deletion?
Councilman Workman: Correct.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion?
Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Oimler seconded to approve Planned Unit
Development, PUO ~2-4 for 113 single family lots with the following conditions:
1. Reduce the amount of tree removal currently proposed through reduction of
gradlng, use of retaining walls, and reconfiguration of lot sizes and
locations.
Provlde a detalled tree removal plan illustrating types, number and callper
of trees over 6" caliper belng removed.
Revlse lot areas by removlng wetland area from the calculations.
Demonstrate that each lot is able to accommodate a 60' x 40' building pad
and a 12' x 12' deck without intruding lnto any required setback area or
protective easement.
5. Provide justification that the requlred bulldable area can be accommodated.
Oemonstrate that each lot provides a 30' rear yard setback and that there
lsa 30' exterlor setback.
7. The PUO is permitted a minimum front yard setback of 20 feet.
8. Zalntaln a mlnlmum 10' side yard setback for all lots and that all
accessory buildings and structures will maintaln a 10' setback, or maintain
at least a 20' separation between principal structures. It will be the
burden of the developer to verlfy that there is a 20' separation between
principal structures at tlme of building permit application.
9. Revise the landscaping plan so that it provides the landscaping required
for a residential PUD (boulevard plantings, exterior landscaping tree
preservation, foundation and yard plantings) and a proposal for a budget
for foundation plantings will not be necessary slnce the site ls already so
heavily vegetated.
10. Provlde architectural covenants.
38
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
11. (Deleted.)
12. Extend the watermain beyond "I" street to "G" street to loop the two water
systems together.
13. Locate flre hydrants approximately 300' apart and in accordance with any
location recommendation by the Fire Narsha11.
Provide storm dralnage and ponding calculations to verify pipe sizing and
pond volumes and extend storm sewer lines to the detention ponds to
mlnlmize erosion along the slopes.
15. Provide a 5' wide concrete sidewalk along one side of Street A.
16. Review I and G street to provlde a 3~ or less grade for the first 50' at
intersection.
17. If the cul-de-sac islands are permitted, the applicant shall work with the
Engineering Department to provlde an acceptable design.
18. Submit details on proposed wetland alterations, mitigation, buffer strips
and protection of wetlands.
19. (Deleted.)
20. Respond to issues raised by the Clty £ngineering and Park Departments.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
CONCEPTUAL PUD ON 18+ ACRES FOR A COPfll~RCIAL/R~TA%L CENTER, SOUTH~ST CO~N~R OF
WEST 78TH STREET AND POWERS BouLevARD, TARGET DEVELOPMENT,
Kate Aanenson: Thank you Mr. Mayor. Ryan Construction is proposing a
development of approximately 18.78 acres. This proposal has changed. We've
already added additional acreage. It's going to the Planning Commission for
preliminary and site plan approval on Wednesday so a lot of what I'm talking
about is dated information but for the purposes tonight, which is conceptual
approval, we'd like to go back and show you what we've gone to the Planning
Commission with and give you their recommendations and pass those forward back
through the process. So the conceptual proposal was 17.78 acres which included
a Target store on approximately 10.36 acres and Outlot B. And Outiot B that
they came in with was approximately, excuse me. There were three variations in
this area right in here. The proposal also includes a possible gateway project
in this area in here, which the HRA is looking at. And in addition, outlot here
whlch would be the trees that the City w111 be purchasing. The HRA, excuse me
will be purchasing and one of the conditions of approval that we would maintain
ls that those trees be not disturbed. It'd be approximately an acre and a.half.
Based on the length, the time of the hour, I'd just briefly go to the summary of
the rezonlng lssues and the reasons why the staff would support the zoning to
the PUO, whlch would be that it's consistent with the Comprehensive Plan. It
provides for screening of the undesireable views of the loading areas. The
preservation of the desireable site characteristics. More specifically the
39
City Council Meeting - September 14, 199~
trees. Improve architectural standards, including the pitched roof, uniform
signage and architecture and traffic management and design techniques to reduce
potential trafflc conflicts. Agaln, the purpose of the PUD zone ls to develop
standards for which this proposal when it comes for site plan review will have
to be developed under these guidances and in thls proposal we'd recommend, as
far as permitted uses, I won't go through these tn detail, but I'd like to
highlight some of the maln issues. The permitted uses we've 11mlted to two fast
foods. Otherwise there's a mix of retail uses in that zone. Again, Target
being the largest user. We've shown how the three different outlots vary. The
Planning Commission had specific concerns about how this outlot, and you'll see
tonight, they've prepared the revised plan of thls. The mismatch of the outlot
and how that would reflect into the Target proposal. Street and access. It's
bordered on three major collectors. Hlghuay 5, Powers Boulevard, and West 78th.
Strgar-Roscoe is who's uorklng on the detachment improvement project. I've
revleued this. We're looklng at three access polnts. One here at Target,
another one at the end of the Target parking lot and then this one here into
Outlot B. At thls time the one going 1nrc Outlot B, we're recommending be a
right turn in and a right turn out only. There will be no access onto Powers
Boulevard so all access would be out to West 78th. As you're aware, we have
approved stop lights on West ?8th recently and we assume that one wlll be
warranted immediately. Target's looking at thls location rlght here for a stop
light in conjunction with the opening of that store. As I had mentioned
earlier, as far as landscaping, the tree preservation was the major issue as a
part of the Highway 5 and the Clty's value to those trees. Was a major
discussion wlth this project. They had requested to go in and do some of the
trimming but our recommendation is that those trees be owned by the HRA and that
no thlnning or trlmming of those trees be done. I would 11ks at thls tlme go
through some of the Planning Commission's concerns. The blggest concern, if I
could show you the original proposal for architecture was, because thls 18 on
the, so to speak the maln street of the downtown area there was a major concern
that thls orlented towards Powers Boulevard and the view of that long blank wall
on West ?8th. There is a significant change in topography from West ?8th into
this and actually the one corner of Target will be recessed. This area rlght in
here will be recessed down. If you're looking across from West ?Sth, actually
the top of the building, you'll see less of the bulldlng massing so it screens
the parking which we feel is a benefit. But we do have concerns about that and
they are here and wlll show you the revised drawlngs that we feel has made
improvements to the design of the building itself. The other concern is the
actual parking lot. The amount of landscaping that was in the parking lot. And
the Planning Commission had concerns again with the massing of the buildtng and
what thls looks 11ks for our downtown. That large of a building and that much
asphalt. Again, they've come back and what we feel is an improved that by
increasing the amount of landscaping lslands. In addition, the Plannlng
Commission wanted to see a connection between Target and the Outlot. Whether
that goes through the parklng here or pedestrian access, and what they submitted
to the Plannlng Commission, they have not lncluded tn that plan. They feel like
the sidewalk along West ?8th Street accomplishes that. There wlll be a sldewalk
along the entire length of West ?8th and the Park and Recreation Commission has
recommended a trail along Powers Blvd. that will tls lnto the tra11 along TH 5.
But agaln, the Planning Commission felt that it made sense to provide pedestrian
access in the middle of the parklng lot to break that up. Again, the design of
Outlot B, as I mentioned before, was one of the concerns of the Planning
Commission and they have made those changes as you'll see tonlght. Another
4O
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
issue then would be just the amount of traffic going into this area and where
that's all coming from and Strgar-Roscoe's here and they did spend some time
going through that in great detail at the Planning Commission meeting. The
majority of that will be coming off of Highway 5 onto Powers. The other issue
that is going to be going before the Planning Commission, as you look at this
site plan is the road configuration has changed. I won't spend a lot of detail
on that but there is some concerns with this. People here tonight that do have
concerns about that. It has been claimed by the applicant that there was a
number of soil corrections that needed to be made and therefore they felt that
it made sense to move the road down. The original realignment for the
detachment of West 78th in this area here, they want to move it 120 feet to the
south. With the touchdown point in this area.- Preliminary it appears that it
may work out with MnOot and Carver County engineers but we need to get specific
details on those approvals. Obviously that would leave a lot remnant right here
in Mr. James' piece and he has specific concerns about that and he's here
tonight to discuss those concerns. But the Planning Commission did recommend
approval of the conceptual. I've gone through and outlined specifically the
concerns with the conditions that the staff had and modified those to reflect
the Planning Commission's concerns. So based on that, the Planning Commission
recommends approval with those modified conditions.
Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you Kate. At this time, if Target would like to come
forward and make your presentation.
Bill McHale: Good evening. My name is Bill HcHale with Ryan Construction.
Mayor, Council people. We will try to make this fairly brief. Because of the
massive amount of information that was previously disseminated, we'd like to
focus mostly on the changes and the new information we've worked out with staff,
especially during the last couple weeks. The main points as we see them were
the architecture of the store itself, certainly the 78th elevation and how it
fit in. Landscaping on the lot and then Outlot B and the concerns the Planning
Commission had. Part of our response to the outlots was the movement of 78th as
well as I think some positive changes to the building. The lot and the 78th
elevation. What I'd like to have first is Dick Koppe, President of ELK, the
consulting engineer to go through some of the specific site changes as they
apply to the lot. Then I also have Margaret Fleck, the architect for Target who
,ill go over the building itself and if you desire, there is a real estate rep
from Target also here. And then I'll close up but we'd like to get out some of
the information so that we can react to some of the concerns from 2 weeks ago.
Dick Koppe: I'm going to talk about a few of the items. I'll move through the
items very quickly. They may not be in the order that you have in your mind but
I'll cover all of the issues that Bill brought up including the landscaping on
the site. The first item on this board demonstrates the alignment change that
the developer is recommending be looked at by the city. The blue line shows the
alignment under the currently platted West 78th Street. Now as you drive the
street today, you'll drive along this alignment. The new street would be
planned along this blue line. We have looked at the site layout and Outlot B
layout and have proposed the new alignment based on several facts that we think
are important for the City Council to consider. First of a11, with this new
alignment we still would have 450-500 feet of spacing between the new West 78th
Street and State Highway 5. We discussed this with your staff and consulting
engineers, and I see they're here present tonight and you may wish to ask them
41
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
later, to cooperate or make comments about my comments, but they've indicated to
us that the spacing will work. In fact it may even be a better spacing in terms
of a signal at TH 5 and a signal at West 78th Street in terms of
interconnection. One of the big reasons we're recommending that this
realignment be done is we feel there's a soils problem in the northern portion
of Outlot B. A soils problem that to put buildings in this location would mean
considerably expense to the developer of Outlot B. In our estimation, it would
be far more economical to put the roadway alignment through Outlot B and then
vacate Outlot C to the developer on the north side of West 78th Street. Thus
allowing him to have the deeper lot which we feel may be of a larger benefit to
his property and also having better soils conditions here, eliminating the
serious soil problem that we have south of West ?Sth Street, and probably most
importantly, eliminating the acquisition of about 1.5 acres of property for
Outlot B by this change. The gentler or more lower degree of curb on West ?Sth
Street under this alignment would make for better traffic movement. However, I
think it's important to mention that this alignment shown in blue did meet your
State Aid standards so we are not trying to correct something that was not
meeting State Aid standards before. We just feel this would be a better
alignment for the high volumes of traffic that will be using West 78th Street.
The outlot or organization of Outlot B under this plan would be better organized
because we would be able to locate four buildings on Outlot B and we would have
a better organization of Outlot B and in our opinion better access from West
78th Street into Outlot B. We've included in our packet some design
alternatives for Outlot 8 .... if you'd like, we can leave the Outlot B
alternative with you. Finally, the soil corrections that would be necessary, I
did mention before that one of the big issues, soil issues along the new
alignment of West 78th Street, the soil corrections that would be necessary for
the new alignment would be done by the developer during the construction of the
Target site. So the City would not have to have any additional expense of soil
correction problems as a result of the realignment. And in fact would have less
acquisition by this layout of approximately 1 1/2 acres. This plan, using that
new scheme along West ?Sth Street, demonstrates the landscaping that would be
completed or implemented throughout the lot. Outlot B would not be landscaped
at this time. It would be done under a separate development agreement but this
entire Target outlot or Target lot of about 10.3 acres would be totally
landscaped in the area along West ?8th Street. I'm going to show the three cuts
that we've made, or sections that we've made through the site trying to give you
an idea of how that you can look at the site from West ?8th Street. The first
section through the site is Section AA and that section would be right at the
easterly end of the site near the northeast corner of the Target building. As
you're looking at the site from a section, this is West 78th Street. This would
be the retaining wall along the edge of the parking lot. This is the parking
lot and grass area. There'd be grass in here. There would be a rear landscaped
area behind the Target store. Section BB is a little further to the west, just
abok~t 50 feet from the entrance of Target. I might add, this entrance to Target
is where the traffic signals is projected to be placed. Again we have a slope
coming off of West ?Sth Street. One of the elevation requirements that we are
requesting is that West 78th Street be cut from it's existing elevation that you
had planned in the BRW study. We are requesting that that be lowered an
additional 2 feet. We already have, as you can see, a fairly significant cut.
Similarly, the additional 2 feet less of elevation will help us blend through
the Target site from West ?Sth Street down to Highway 5. Even with that cut,
we're still looking at slopes through the Target parking lot of between 3~ and
42
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
5~. This is Section BB. Again, coming off of the roadway. The boulevard area
with a 5 foot sidewalk, boulevard trees, shrubbery, and the parking lot with
trees wlthln the parklng lot and a Target bu!ldlng. This is Section CC, and
this section is further into the parking lot. At a section along West 78th
Street at the point of curvature where you start curving up to the north, it
indicates the widest point of the boulevard area. You can see the landscaping
that will be done. It also indicates how some of those islands within the
parking lot would be landscaped with trees and shurbbery, trying to reduce as
you're looklng through the parking lot, the impact of the vehicular parking
situation. The bottom perspective is looking at the Target building basically
from the rear of the bullding back at this point to the front of the building
from the side view. Again, along West 78th Street. We have tried to meet with
staff. Take lnto account many of their landscaping, buildlng aesthetics,
engineering, street alignment situations that have come up over the past few
weeks. We think we've worked wlth staff to the degree where they're satisfied
that we met most of these demands, if not all of them. And we feel that we have
demonstrated that adequately.
councilman Mason: Can Z just see AA please?
Dick Koppe: Sure.
Councilman Mason: Where is that again in relation to?
Dick Koppe: AA is at the rear of the Target building. You're looklng at the
big swath of landscaping that would be back here between the Target bullding and
the Burdick property.
Councilman Mason: Now is that the current elevation or the elevation you want?
Oick Koppe: This would be the elevation that we would propose as a part of the
reconstruction of West 78th Street.
Councilman Mason: What's the elevation now? OD you know off hand?
Kate Aanenson: They're lowering it a foot and a half.
Oick Koppe: About a foot and a half. The property from the James property all
the way down to TH 5 ls pretty much one continuous slope and in order to try to
minimize the fill and the cut that' we have through the property and keep the
grade somewhere around 3~ to 4~ in the parklng lot, ue feel that this elevation
along the front of Target would help that situation.
8111 McHale: A couple things that I'd like to express and then I'll let
Margaret Fleck go over the elevations. A couple things with aligning the
roaduay...is it takes less acreage into account that when you conslder the
existlng easements that go through the center or both sides of the existing 78th
that you'd be vacated...the sanitary can't be moved very much because of the
fall and gravlty situation. But when you take the sight lines of the roadway
into consideration, the setbacks, the utilities, etc., in order to place
building pads on Outlot 8 previously, it became confusing as far as Planning
Commission was concerned. By lowering the grade, ue enhance the sight lines
into the property. We also move the roadway closer to the existing easements
43
City Council. Meeting - September 14, i992
that can't be moved and to be vacated right away. And it looks at that point
like a, I believe Lt's in your packet, a fairly simplified for building outlot
ulth a new street coming through it that exlsts on the property. The buildings
can all be built and the economics as well as the aesthetics I think are greatly
enhanced. Plus ~t means that the HRA would have to acquire about an acre and a
h~lf less property also. Margaret.
Margaret Fleck: Just very qulckly I'm just going to show you what we standardly
start with when we go out on a job site and think about what we want to do as a
Target. Thls ls our bare minlmum Target. This is not what you're gettlng in
Chanhassen at a11. I guarantee you.
Mayor' Chmlel: Thank you.
Margaret Fleck: Hopefully this will make you appreciate this even more though.
To some extent the building footprint wlll be maintained. It just starts wlth
our merchandising. To begin with, just to emphasize. Our' entry area and our
front area does have a great deal of variation just standardly. What we've done
to really asslst and upgrade it even further ls to, I'm golng to drop the proto
type down here so you can just get a real strong comparison. Or standard
blzilding. Is we've changed the front entry area and brought in the pitched
roofs so it brings back in your reflection of your residential areas here.
Tries to bring in some scale. We have also added several colored strlpes that
we would normally not use on our standard building, feellng that that also
brought more scale in. Brought more color. It's the blue, the green and the
red that we call somewhat our Greatland colors. There is the curved edges which
accent and soften the bulldlng a great deal. And then along wlth that, so that
we could start worklng and playing with the ?8th Street side, ue added another
masslng over here that has a similar roof at a lower helght and then we added
masses along the ?Sth Street side. One of them reflecting almost a smaller
entryuay and the metal standlng seam roof that again gives you your sloped pltch
look. You'J.1 notice on all of the areas that project out further, we have
changed the helght of the darker tan color of the 8 x 16 masonry so that it
really emphasizes it projecting out even further. In fact, the West ?8th Street
side we've even gone to adding the brown stripe up hlgher to kind of brlng it
out again. It is a masonry building with an 8 x 16, what ue call a rock face.
It's not a smooth face block. It has a texture to it. It ls sealed with a coat
that gives it the color and we'll go wlth the darker color and then the lighter
color up here ls all in 8 x 8 scored masonry unlt so that you get a different
scale. And it gives you a great deal more variety to the texture and the
surface of the building. Yeah, there's the colors.
Councilman Mason: How wide are the bands? The color bands.
Margaret Fleck: They're 8 inch bands and they are actually a tile piece that's
integrally molded into the block.
Mayor Chmiel: Sometimes known as racing stripes.
Margaret Fleck: We call it spectraglaze. That's a product name but. It does
assist a great deal in breaklng up and because it's smooth in comparison to the
rock face, it does have an indentation to it that you don't have on the rest of
the building. We've added trees up in the front to break up the line here and
City Council Meeting - September 14, lgg2
also to add some green lnto the area. Brought another tree in over here. The
projections that we have on the bullding will be 2'8" or greater and at this
point I'd 11ke to show you a perspective that should give you an indication of
how the West ?8th Street side as well as the front entry starts working so that
you can get a feel for the masslng that we're projecting out and the variation
along this side.
(There was a tape change at thls polnt in the discussion.)
Mayor Chmiel: ...had a little more aesthetics to it than even what you have
here.
Margaret Fleck: Perhaps very different aesthetics because of the Florida area.
We do work with a different material down there that would be fairly
inappropriate for this cold c11mate. To some extent we do have elements.
know one of the things that was mentioned on, and Z believe you saw Boca Raton?
Mayor Chmlel: Yes.
Margaret Fleck: Yeah. One of the ltems that I didn't manage to include in thls
and that was mentioned on that was there was a corntce work. Here rather than
doing an attached cornlce work, we have actually done a corbeling to the block
that will brlng you and project out 2 inches and 2 inches so that you start
getting that same, but yet with the masonry unlts that you don't change
materials again and ue maintain the integr£ty of the wall that would be there.
Mayor Chmiel: The C2 that you have on here, is indicating metal. Where would
that particular...
Margaret Fleck: That would not be on this particular building. That ls
normally on our Greatland building which has the two different colored entries.
We're maintaining the red entry on the interior but we're keeping thls band
along here the same color as the base color.
Councilman Workman: How does the size of this match up wlth the Eden Prairie
store?
Margaret Fleck: The Eden Pralrie store was built prior to my getting lnvolved
with Target but I would say that width wise, it's approximately the same and
depth wlse, lt's falrly close. Tlm, do you know the square footage on the Eden
Prairie? Yeah, it should be fairly close to that. This one does have a greal
deal more variation along the wall surfaces than that Eden Prairie store has.
that prototype didn't have the variation. We've moved, that prototype also had,
or that basic bullding also has the office area upstairs so we've gotten a great
deal more variation moving in and out of the entryway area than you would have
seen in Eden Prairie. I believe that's almost straight across.
Mayor Chmiel: Are there any questions? Mike, do you have any specifics?
Councilman Mason: I need a visual. I'm curious about some sort of computer
imaging. I don't know if that can be done here or not but I'd like, I
understand the view now from West 78th and that's really been helpful but, and
45
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
maybe I'm jumping ahead here but what will it look like from Highway 5? What
will it look like from all the other areas?
Margaret Fleck: Most of what you're going to see from Highway 5 is this
elevation. This elevation which does not reflect all the trees over on that lot
will be pretty well covered by those trees or thelr branches durlng the wlnter.
That's a big stand of trees there. You'd only, the area that you're going to
really see is maybe along here.
Councilman Mason: Yeah, I'm talking about coming from Victoria. Coming from
the other direction. Coming over the bridge.
Mayor Chmiel: Coming from the west and going east.
Councilman Mason: Yeah.
Kate Aanenson: I specifically asked for, we looked at the elevations at points
going up, and Barton-Aschman going up and looking at, plotting thls along to
look, see what we would actually look at and what we haven't discussed here
tonight is the 3 to 4 foot parapet wall because that was a big concern too. So
we went through and ue plotted those polnts. I think we got them every 100 feet
and you won't see any rooftop equipment. They have, what you can't see also
as you mentioned, they have trees in Outlot A. Plus there is additional, with
the storm retention pond. One of the advantages of this plan is, they were able
to put a 2:1 slope on that pond. In thl$ area here. We were able to get the
parking lot pulled up and increase this area down in here too...landscaping
along this area will help. But that is a concern and we dld look at that
specifically and how this would look... Agaln, I think a lot of this, what
happens here w111 affect that vlsual and the landscaping that goes wlth each of
those lots.
Councilman Mason: Anyone else on the Council interested in seeing what it looks
11ks on a computer or should I be quiet?
Councilman Wing: Computer imaging is certainly the in thing. It doesn't seem
to be that costly to take a picture of the area and put the store in and start
addlng and subtracting. It certainly was successful on those monuments.
Councilman Mason: Well, it was very successful on those monuments. I Just
woutd be really curlous to see what it would look like.
Councilman Wing: Do you do computer imaging?
Margaret Fleck: I would have to look into that. I don't know that this
particular prototype or this particular building type has been put into the
computer that would be able to do that 3D imaging.
Mayor Chmiel: Paul, can I ask you a question? With the relocation of ?8th
Street, the proposed location. Maybe Charles too. How is this going to effect
how our parkway along the north side of Highway $?
Paul Krauss: First keep in mind that we have not taken an active position one
way or another shifting it but our concern has always been maintaining a
City Council Heeting - September
continuity through there and we've had Strgar-Roscoe look at that and we believe
it doesn't really effect it adversely. You can continue right through there. In
fact it helps you scoot around the wetland a little bit more to move you to the
south a 11ttle bit.
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe Charles, maybe you can answer the other questlon I had.
The relationship to movlng that from point-to point. How will this effect our
State Aid on that particular road?
Charles Folch: Well, basically we would, we aren't proposing to use State Aid
dollars to construct the West 78th Street improvement project so therefore.
Mayor Chmiel: No, but once they go in and once someone's due for a change 20
years down the road.
Charles Folch: That's basically a change in paperwork if you will. Define the
aZignment. Once lt's basically, this change would have to be approved by both
Carver County and MnDot from a review standpoint. Once we have, if we dld
receive those approvals, it's a matter of a paperwork process just to redefine
the alignment from a State Ald mapplng standpoint.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, how would the stacking be with that 4SO to 500 feet?
Charles Folch: Well that's, yeah that's the question that I thlnk Strgar took a
further look at. How that, not only West 78th Street at County Road 17 but aIso
the segment from CR 17 or the segment of CR 17 from the detachment intersection
south to Highway 5. How that would function and such and I think preliminary
indications are that, as a mlnlmum at Hlghway 5, we would need to add an
additional left turn lane so in a sense you'd have side by side double left turn
lanes. Is that correct Denny? From an initial traffic analysis standpoint, so
there might be some modifications that would have to be done at the intersection
with Highway 5 to get it to perform properly. Another change may be eliminating
the free right from westbound TH 5 to northbound CE 17 which isn't that big a
deal but there's other considerations llke that that we would want to take a
look at.
Councilman Mason: I think that would be a big deal if we had to eliminate that.
personally.
Charles Folch: The free right?
Councilman Mason: Yeah. Because I use it a lot.
Mayor Chmlel: Okay, does anyone have any specific questions?
Councilman Wing: I'd like to ask Paul on grading and drainage. All this money
going lnto these environmental, thls parking lot and the number of cars ls going
to bring into the city and create some horrible things that we wouldn't want to
drlnk or smell. What's going to happen? I understand it's going into a
retention pond, it's holding. Has our engineering staff or water surface peopZe
looked at thls parking lot? Is all thls drainage and the pollution it creates,
going into areas that are going to be, what's the word, treated? Treatable?
47
City Council Heeting - September 14, 1992
Paul Krauss: It's all going to be funned through treatment basins that's to the
NURP standards. And when taken in total, over the entire PUD, the hard surface
coverage is actually relatively low. So when you combine it u/th the fact that
all the water that runs off ut11 be run through treatment basins, I think we can
offer a pretty good level of environmental protection.
Councilman Wing: The only other comment I would make, as we progress along the
way here, at some polnt I'd 11ke to throw thls out and I mlght as well put you
on guard right now. Is that when everything is said and done and we've agreed
on this and the vote's doun, at the very last mlnute I'd 11ke to quote a mentor
of mlne and say, uhatever the landscaping ls, double tt and vote for it. So I
thlnk that the bullding ls basically, they've made some real efforts to meet the
city's standards and the building is more attractive. However, it's st111 a
basic warehouse. Windowless. Someuhat square. And in Eagan they have a lot of
similar buildings and they're incredibly attractive because they're incredibly
landscaped and not to the polnt of belng excessive. There's just a lot of
landscaping. As it matures, you actually give a gift to the city so I think we
really want to react to the future and lmpact the future. When a11's said and
done, and it's all agreed upon, I think we ought to take a final look at the
landscaping and maybe there's room for some more trees and brush and whatever
the case is, to put the building into a little more of a, less of an open field
setting and into a 11ttle more of a wooded settlng for the future. I thlnk it
would really impact this store as it comes into our city and I think that would
be a glft ue could give the community. To see that lt's landscaped. But what
we've got now is good, but I think it's basic. So at some point I would like to
request additional landscaping. Unless you bent my arm enough not to.
Paul Krauss: It occurred to me, I live in Eagan. I'm famlliar wlth the one in
Eagan and thls is no Eagan. I mean ue're dolng ita lot better.
Councilman Wing: I'm not talking about Target. I'm just talking about some
construction in Eagan. We'll go for a ride. I'll show you want I mean.
Paul Krauss: Because this has the Target in Eagan beat hands down.
Councilman Wing: Oh, oh I agree. I think you've done a wonderful job on this.
I'm only saying that when we're down to the bottom line, I sure would feel
comfortable with just a little more green.
Hayor Chmiel: Haybe before I proceed with the balance of Council. I know we
have some property owners in and adjacent to thls and I'm uondering if there's
any concerns or anything you'd 11ke to bring up at this particular time.
B.C. "Jlm" Burdick: B.C. "Jlm" Burdlck from Excelsior. I own the land just to
the east of here and in our agreement it does provide for a drive to go between
the parklng lot and my property. And we did originally want a curb cut but
we've pretty well glven that up so the driveway there is acceptable. And I did
go lnto movlng the building 40 to 60 feet to the south where it was originally
and rlght along for a number of months but I understand and I've talked to Kate
about thls. She particularly wanted it moved to the north to save some of the
oak trees and we had a discussion on this. I discussed it wlth her and a couple
of you people and the situation ls 11ke this. I looked at it and I thought
perhaps 2, 3, 4 oak trees would be gone and on that basis it would be worth it.
48
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
Moving it 40 feet to the south but I engaged Bill Engelhardt, a professional
engineer, because I'm sure he has a much better, more accurate Job than me and
he reports about a dozen oak trees. 12 oak trees. Some of them are 18-24 up
to 36 inches. So we would prefer to have it to the south because it'd hurt our
property to the east less. On the other hand, the trade off ts, these oak trees
are though. I'd ask you people not to count too much on oak trees because a 36
oak tree much be 100 years old and just how much life do they have left. We
also have a lot of oak wilt in Minnesota. Star and Tribune had an article on it
a couple of weeks ago. Something like half the oak trees or whatever. They
didn't particularly name Chanhassen. It was a general thing. And farther
south, it could be a bit more of a gradual slope to the Target building on the
north as you're concerned about the appearance from West 78th Street. As Mr.
Wing mentioned, the trees, there'd be more room for trees on the north side of
the building. In other words, a better appearance from 78th Street. There'd
also be more room for the walkway that the Planning Commission wants and I
understand the Planning Commission also wants some plantings along 78th Street.
So it's rather a trade off. I thought originally about 3 oak trees, I'd come in
and really push it. So we'll plant 3 oak trees or whatever or 30 oak trees.
10-20 years it'd be okay. It would be because the...oak trees to move it 40
feet. I guess that's about all unless there's some questions.
Councilman Workman: Jim, explain to me. You own Lot 2 and Lot ! there?
8.C. "3im" Burdick: Yes.
Councilman Workman: On the north of Pica and to the west of Monterey. What
does that accomplish for you by moving the building south?
B.C. "Jim" Burdick: Well, a better visibility. Better visibility and also a
better entrance from the Target parking lot. I have a little trouble now with
the flow of the traffic there and having this entrance.
Kate Aanenson: Originally this wasn't included as part of the PUD submittal.
When you see it next time, we recommended, that was one of the recommendations
that that be included. It makes sense to architecturally tie that in and
physically it's connected through that service drive.
Councilman Workman: Those two lots?
Kate Aanenson: Yes. As you mentioned, there won't be an additional curb cut on
78th. There will just be the access to get through and any other curb cuts will
be off of Monterey. By pushing it back, he felt that gave him more visibility
onto West 78th and maybe even off of Powers.
B.C. "Jim" Burdick: In other words Tom, instead of being seen 5~ in Target's
back yard, we'd be 50~ in Target's back yard.
Councilman Wing: What's your proposed use of those lots 3im? What do you
perceive those maybe being?
B.C. "Jim" Burdick: Oh, we'd of course open a dry cleaning plant there some day
in the near future but there's interest in restaurants. Car wash. I believe
49
Cit/ Council MeetJ, ng- September 14, 1992
those have been the maln interest. Oh, also I've approached by a medical group.
But we're a bit slow on that.
Ha/or Chmiel: Any other questions? Thanks 3im. Zs there anyone else?
Charlie James: Charlie James, T.F. James Company. We can't go on meeting this
wa/ here. Z guess flrst of all I want to say in an unambiguous way, that I
support this project and I think it will be a great benefit to downtown
Chanhassen. And it also appears that this project ls on a fast track schedule
and I don't want to slow it down. As a matter of fact I'm hoping that it will
prod along some things that need to get done at the west end of West 78th
Street. I guess I have to speak tonight about a proposal that came up since the
last Planning Commission meetlng that you heard here tonlght that would
basically involve relocating West ?8th Street. There were some statements made
here that we've got bad soll and that simply lsn't the case. The people that
did the soll correction out there for me were the same people that were engaged
b/ R/an and they faxed me this drawlng of where the borings were done for them
and where they'd been done previously for me. The borings that plcked up the
bad so11, as you can see here on the pink, that indicates the exlstlng West 78th
Street and our property of course is north of there and you can see the arrows
here. It says these borings show poor solls. Those borlngs aren't even on my
property. I brought along the origlnal site grading plans and specifications
and when we dld that detachment out there, ue graded that to HnDot
specifications. We spent a couple hundred thousand dollars out there and we
also have been walting, as you know I've had a development agreement with the
city for a number of years and we've been watting for the street to get built
out there so that we could proceed with our project. At the time that all the
f111 work was done out there, I hired GME who is also worklng for Ryan to be on
site and they, thls is a log of all thelr dally inspections of every bit of f111
that came in and off of that site. And so our site itself, for our proposed
bullding pad ls totally corrected. The elevation out there before ue started
was at 944. We removed organic and bad material below that level and then we
fllled it to approximately 955 so there's a considerable amount of materlal
that's not only in the building pad area but ue drag lined the area that West
?8Ih Street was proposed to be bullt on to a depth of 16 feet and put in fill
material according to MnOot's specifications and 8 inch lift. So I think that
what's really happening out here, and in discussing thls with Strgar,
unfortunately there was a mix up where there was a meetlng scheduled a week ago
and I think, as Charlle explained to me, I just wasn't on the malling 11st for
that meeting so I was not notlfied of the meeting when this original proposal
came up. And then when I found out about lt, I met with staff and I have to say
that everyone's put in a tremendous amount of work on thts project. Staff and
Don and Todd and everybody and Z really appreciate the coordination wlth them.
But in any event, I was unable to make that meeting because I did not recelve an
invitation. And when I dld meet ulth the Clty, a couple of thlngs became clear
and I guess the most obvious one is that there's no clear engineering reason for
thls detachment. That primarily what's at lssue here preserving slght 11nes
into Target and also trying to make the tax increment in the project balance out
and so if there's less land acquisition costs by splitting Charlle James'
property and then giving him back a big plece of his land to the north, then
apparently that makes the project work better. And as I sald to staff, at the
meeting a week ago, it kind of reminds me about the story of the chicken and the
pig that are standlng out by in the pasture one day along the fence on the
5O
City Council Meeting - September 14, lgg2
county road. And they're looking up at a billboard along the road and here was
a big billboard by, I think it was the Pork Producer's Council and the Egg
Producer's Counc11. And it said, eat a healthy breakfast and there was a
picture of bacon and eggs. And the chicken stands there and he says to the pig,
he says lsn't it wonderful that we can be part of all that. And the pig says
well yeah it is but for you it's just a donation and for me it's a total
commitment. That's what thls road relocation ts kind of done. It's a total
commitment for me. I would hope that there'd be some time to resolve these
issues and I think there's some issues that need to be resolved with the HRA. I
knou Oon was out of town last week and so I think there may be some issues here
that could be resolved by meeting with Don and staff. Now I don't knou how to
accomplish that because I'm a builder and I know how important it is to get your
earth work done this time of year so I don't want to obstruct this process but
I'd like to see some more uork on the west end here. I don't want to see the
east end of the PUD get pushed along so fast and then the west end kind of gets
put on the back burner and Charlte James is hung out to dry for another 4 years.
So what I'd like to see is this Target proposal kind of be the engine that
pushes forward the resolution of all these issues for me. And so I don't want
it to, I don't want to obstruct the thing. I kind of want to be riding on the
front of the locomotive and get my problems solved at the same time. I think
they've got a good building plan and as I mentioned before, I think it'd be a
very nice addition to downtown. Thank you.
Don Ashworth: If I may. We started, well flrst of a11, Mr. James and Mr.
Burdick are correct from the standpoint that this project has been I think
ordered by the Clty Council two different tlmes and one time it went so far as
to even be bonded for. I mean we literally went out into the market and
recelved monies to bulld the road. Each of the times for one reason or another,
the project did not go forward. Each time that it passes a one year period of
tlme, and you've ordered the project but have not constructed lt, you have to
start the hearing process over. So twice before, really three times now we have
reinltiated that hearlng process. We did that again in February of this year
and held the public hearing to consider ordering the road improvement in mid-
March. At that point in time there were some certain questions as to alignment
and what not and so the Council's action in March was to table action. Not
order the project unt11 some of these lssues could be resolved. In the
meantime, Target came forward and since that point in time we've been talking
about optional concept plans and potential changes to the roadway, etc.. To
resolve the issues that Mr. James was referring to, and to assure that we stay
on a schedule and meet State law, it's necessary to pick that hearlng process
back up agaln. Staff would recommend that we conclude that hearing process and
make some decision. Are we ordering the project or are we not? For our meeting
on September 28th. Is that correct? But hopefully we'll have an opportunity to
meet with Mr. James between now and the'28th and as staff lsa part of any other
action that the Council might be taking tonight, we'd recommend that you pass a
resolution establishing September 28th as the date to conclude the heartng
process that was started tn March and hopefully again be able to resolve some of
the issues that Mr. James has brought out here tonight. So we would present,
the re-estimated feasibility study for this project on the 28th as well as to
provide updates to the Councll as to how we were resolving thls lssue as to
movement of the road. Purchasing all of Mr. James' property, budget problems
that quite frankly are there.
51
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is there anyone else? Thomas.
Councilman Workman: I'm ready to approve the concept, and of course I do want
to take Mr. 3ames' comments into account. I don't konw if I've got enough
information on Mr. 8urdick's request. I'd like to look at that a little closer.
As I've driven by there, there would appear to be what I'll call a row of lesser
trees in front of the oak trees that I know that would probably have to come...
and so I guess I don't know if that's falr for hls two lots or what. But if
that's something that can be accommodated.
Mayor Chmiel: I still I'd like to see the preservation of some of those larger
trees. More specifically the ones that are at least 36 inch and of course the
infestation that's happening wlth the oak trees ls not only wlth the red oak but
you know, depending upon what the specles are of these trees with the white oak,
you have three different variations and some of the species that are only belng
effected are just certain trees of the oak. So I guess I would like to also see
exactly what Tom ls saying as to take a look see at that. Just to make sure
we're not golng to dig up something that's been here for a long time and oak
trees have been known to last a lot longer than I am. So they'll probably be
around another 100 years plus.
B.C. "Jim" Burdick: ...I didn't find out which particular type of oak trees...
Kate Aanenson: We've got ail that information. A tree survey was done. I
think the other lssue too ls, you're not only pushing the bullding back. When
you look at what this, the loading area here, and that takes out a larger
significant chunk too and this ls the area where the oak trees are down here.
Paul Krauss: Right now the loadlng area benefits from Pica Lane. Or whatever,
Plca Street. If you push the bullding any further south, you wlnd up having to
build a very large cul-de-sac bubble for the trucks to turn around ln, and
that's what really eats up the trees.
Kate Aanenson: Also, those trees are what's providing the screen. The more
trees we take down, the less screening we're providing too so there's a trade
off there.
Councilman Workman: Put up a big plastic wall.
Mayor Chmiel: It's getting to a late hour. Yes.
Bill McHale: I don't want to belabor that point but additionally, as the
building, right now the grade coming off the street into the lot is 5~ and
that's a fairly significant grade in Minnesota. If the street lsn't lowered at
all and/or lt's pushed back in, that grade will increase. I guess there's some
questions about how safe or practical that is in Hlnnesota weather too.
Mayor Chmiel: Just a little more sand and a little more salt.
Councilman Workman: Who pays for that extra lowering of a street7
Mayor Chmiel: I would think that that would be the property owners.
52_
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
Councilman Workman: That 2 feet is a...
Mayor Chmiel: Would that be termed as a city street?
Don Ashworth: The road, to realign 78th Street that's being considered to be
reduced. Would that add additional costs? I'm not anticipating tt from a city
standpoint that it would but.
Charles Folch: Relatively speaking, if the only potential cost difference would
be if there would be any needed soil corrections within the roadway. If
something was worked out where if the alignment ls changed, maybe a condition
could be put on it that the developer be responsible for any necessary soil
corrections and the road preparations so therefore you've got pretty much an
equal cost for either alignment.
Councilman Workman: Z'm not talklng about realignment as much as ! am about
depth.
Charles Folch: Yeah, the proposed decrease in the roadway by a foot and a half
or whatever it is at that main entrance to Target, that's for basically a short
period of the roadway. It's not for the entire length of West 78th Street. It's
for more of a defined area at that point. The additional costs in grading.
Probably minimal as compared to the overall project cost.
Mayor Chmiel: Thomas, with some of the clarifications you've made.
Councilman Workman: I would so move the concept. Conceptual design PUD Target.
Did I get it a117
Councilman Wing: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Any other discussion?
Councilman Mason: How does this jive with the thought about realigning West
78th Street?
Kate Aanenson: That's not any part of this.
Paul Krauss: The way we've taken this to the Planning Commission, and I believe
they're golng to them on Wednesday, the Target store doesn't change. I mean the
Target store issues, the roadway realignment doesn't effect tt at all.
Mayor Chmiel: No, you're right.
Paul Krauss: The concept plan for the outlots that they gave us right now, the
PUD concept plan ls based upon the realigned road. What we've told the Plannlng
Commission is, if ultimately there's a decision to keep the roadway where tt is,
then that concept for those outlots needs to come back again for review.
Mayor Chmiel: Other than what Don had mentioned, with the resolution to come up
by September 28th, and the effect of being included in that motion, as a
friendly amendment. Is that acceptable? Okay. And the second?
53
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
Councilman Wing: Sure.
Mayor Chmiel: ~ny other discussion?
Councilman Wing: 3ust Don, on your stop sign meetings with the community, I've
missed those and we had Great Plains, Laredo, Market, Kerber and the other night
we brought up Target and Powers.
Mayor Chmiel: We were talking about that this evening prior to the Council
meeting. At the informational meeting. Ursula was there as well as Charles and
some of the other people. Kevin McShane.
Councilwoman Dimler: I want to make a clarification here. We are just
approving a concept tonight.
Mayor Chmiel: This is strictly concept plan.
Councilwoman Oimler: So that any changes that we feel need to be made can still
be made? It doesn't mean we're accepting everything we saw here?
Mayor Chmiel: That's correct. With that clarification, I'll call the question.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Wing seconded conceptual approval of PUD
#92-5 as shown on the plans dated august 7, 1992, and approving Resolution ~92-
106 to conclude the public hearing on the gest 78th Street detachment at the
September 28, 1992 City Council meeting, sub3ect to the following conditions:
1. Burdick Park Addition, Block 3, Lots 1 and 2, be added to the PUD at the
time of preliminary PUD.
2. Submittal of PUD plans consistent with the recommendations of the staff
report and Engineer's memo.
3. The most westerly access on West ?Sth Street shall be a right turn-in and
right turn-out only, full access be limited to the other two locations
shown on the site plan.
4. The three proposals for Outlot B may or may not be acceptable but each
building must proceed through site plan review. This site plan review
shall consider the remainder of the balance of the site. This includes
landscaping impervious surface, parking, etc.. Any major changes would
constitute a rezoning.
5. Vacation of the existing West 78th Street.
6. Acceptance of full park and trail dedication fees.
7. Six foot sidewalk along West ?8th Street and Powers Boulevard.
8. Compliance with the standards of the PUD zone outlined in the staff report.
Improved design of the Target store including the view from West ?Sth
Street.
54
City Council Meeting - September 14, 1992
10. More landscaping in the parking lot of the Target store.
11. Better design of Outlot B including the access road that runs through it.
12. Further investigation of traffic lssues.
13. Consideration of pedestrian access between Target and Outlot B.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
CouncilMoman Dimler moved, Councilman Hason seconded to adjourn the meettng.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. The meeting Mas
adjourned at 11:10 p.m..
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Ophelm