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1992 08 24 CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR HEETING AUGUST 24, 1992 May~r Chmlel called the meetlng to order at 7:35 p.m.. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. HEHBERS PRESENT: Hayor Chmlel, Councilman Hason, Councilman Workman, Councilman Wing and Councilwoman 0tmler STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Todd Hoffman, Jo Ann 01sen, Kate Aanenson, Sharmin Al-Jarl, Scott Hark and Charles Folch APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dlmler seconded to approve the agenda as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEHENTS: Councilman Workman: I was just upstairs, and I don't know how well it was publicized. That's why I want to make sure that tt gets publicized so people have tlme. We discussed at 6:30 tonlght that the stop signalization of West 78th street and so it's a rather important meeting. We're going to have the second and flnal one in September 14th. Courtyard room just 11ke we did tonlght before the Council meeting. Last chance. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I thlnk probably a lot of people have mlssed it. Councilman Wlng: Including me. I wasn't notified. Mayor Chmlel: You and I both. And if need be, with one that was tonight and I see there was about 2 people present outside of Council. We may have to take this on a 3 run stint. Maybe have two afterwards but we'll see what happens on the next one. Any other? If hearing none, we'll move right along with the agenda. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman #orkman moved, Councilman Nason seconded to approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the C1t¥ Hanager's recommendations: a. Wetland Alteration Permit for Alteration wtthin 200 feet of a Wetland, 7201 Juniper Avenue, Greg Oatillo. b. Wetland Alteration Permlt for a Right Turn Lane Adjacent to a Wetland, Cheyenne Trail and Highway 101, Ctty of Chanhassen. d. Carver Beach Park Vehlcle Parking. e. Resolution ~2-~3: Resolution Approving Membership in the Southwest Drug Task Force for 1993. City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 f. Resolution ~92-94: Approve Plans and Specifications for 1992 Sanitary Sewer Rehabilitation Program; Authorize Advertisement for Bids, Project 92-11. g. Resolution ~92-95: Call for Assessment Hearlng on West ?gth Street ImproveBent Project 91-8. i. Approval of Bills. j. City Council Minutes dated August 10, 1992 Planning Commission Mlnutes dated August 5, 1992 All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. C. BLUFF CREEK ESTATES, SOUTH OF HTGHWAY 5 ON THE EAST S~[DE OF AUPUBON ROAD. KEYLAND HOHES. Councilman Wlng: The Bluff Creek Estates, I don't have any lssue wlth that other than the Williams Plpeline runs right through the mlddle of a house and I think that's a significant lssue on this development. I thlnk the Pipelines golng to be marked. I just wanted to ensure that the developer, the sellers, whatever the case were, other than the owner gettlng it through the Abstract, disclose the fact that the Pipeline is there. That the lot is on the Pipeline. That there ls an easement. That the easement has restrictions. I also dldn't understand, I thought that the Williams Pipeline, from my knowledge, requlred a 50 foot from center 11ne easement and we'.re taking a 37 1/2 foot so I didn't understand the difference there. Not that it matters but, and also that a driveway requlred 3 feet of cover. A roadway required 5 feet of cover. I just want to ensure that those were being met. So disclosure being my first concern. The second concern is that the people understand that in that easement there can't be any trees, any digging, planting, decks of any kind because the plpellne could be directly under the soil. I thlnk there's a hazard in that setup so I guess summary was, disclosure to the buyer to make sure they're aware of the Pipeline. Understanding the ramifications of the easement. Making sure that we have 5 feet of cover where the roadway goes over the pipe. If that's required. That's all the information I had. ! thlnk that's adequate. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I think that's a good point. Only because often times people are not aware but upon purchase of those properties, normally lt's contained within their deed indicating what those requirements are. But how often do we really look at those. That's a good polnt to be brought up. Thank you. Would you 11ke to move item (c) then ulth those concerns. Councilman Wlng: Yeah, wlth the addltlon of the disclosure. I guess the disclosure's the only issue. And the addition that the people on the Pipeltne understand the dangers and ramifications of digglng of decks, planting of trees and so on. I'd move. Councilman Workman: Second. Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve Bluff Creek Estates, South of Highway 5 on the East Side of Audubon Road, Keyland Homes with the understanding that the developer provide a disclosure regarding Wi[ltams City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 Pipel/ne being located on the property and notifying buyers of the dangers and ramifications associated with the Pipeline: 1) F/nal Plat Approval 2) Approve Development Contract 3) Approve Plans and Specifications All voted in favor and the motton carried unan/eously. H. APPROVE CHANGE ORDER NO- 1 TO Uf~KET SOUARE STORH SEI~. BUS SHELTER RELOCATION. PRO3ECT 90-13. Mayor Chmlel: I just wanted to pull that one and I was going to talk to Charles today but I didn't get an opportunity. And I don't see him here at this time. But this was a change order which was adding a change to the original contract that would specify some of the work items on construction of a right turn lane off West 78th Street to Market Square Development. Change Order amounts to approximately $19,188.00 for a right turn lane. To me that seems a little high. Is that the norm for it? Don Ashworth: What this change recognizes is that Market Square will be opening this fall. We needed to get the turn lane into the shopping center area. Originally we had hoped that the work in front of the shopping center would be done at the same time as the West 78th Street realignment and as that project has drug itself out, we recognize that it could not be completed through that project by the time that the shopping center opened this fall. So we went back to the contract that we did this past fall for the storm sewer that included the curb and gutter over by the bowling center. And this change order represents extending that contract to carry out that one turn lane. We did have several bidders on the contract from this past fall. I feel comfortable that that's a good bid. Mayor Chmiel: Good. Councilman Wing: Don, just all we did was switch the dollars then from the detachment project to them? Don Ashworth: Right. I mean the same amount will end up being assessed. That segment will nov be deleted out of the West 78th Street realignment project hopefully when that is let this next spring, but at least we'll get the work done to make sure people can in fact get into the shopping center. Mayor Chmiel: Okay with that explanation on it, I'd so move item (h). Is there a second? Councilman Mason: Second. Resolution ~t92-g&: Hayor Ch~ie! moved, Councilman Hason seconded to approve Change Order No. 1 to Market Square Storm Seuer, Bus Shelter Relocation, Project 90-13. All voted tn favor and the mot/on carried unanimously. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 INTERIH USE PERHIT FOR EARTH WORK/HINING OF A GRAVEL PIT, NORTH OF HIGHWAY 212 AND EAST OF THE CHICAGO AND NORTHWESTERN RAILWAY, TOH ZWIERS, HOON VAlLeY AGGREGATE. Mayor Chmlel: Before we get into thls, there are several thlngs that were concerns that we had had from the previous Council meeting and asked for some clarifications as to the questions that were asked by the citizenry and to have revleu of this by staff. To come up with some conclusions to explaln to Council the positlon that they're golng through. What I'd 11ke to do at this tlme ls to re-open that meetlng from the last tlme and I did want someone to at least address each of those respective lssues fha{ were asked now. And then I'll open it back up for any additional comments. I would like at this time to have you limit your comments from, if you had gotten up last tlme, that ue have comment from you without reiteration from what was sald the last time because we do have them contained in the Mlnutes and it's rather lengthy and we know exactly what has happened. If there is some additional information that you'd like to supply, we'd be more than happy to listen to that. So ulth that, Kate are you going to present that portion of it? Kate Aanenson: Specifically there was a few areas that the City Council addressed the staff to further investigate. That being visual impacts, the 11nkage, and the £AW, Environmental Assessment Worksheet. Speclflcally...those questions as far as linkage. The Attorney advised us that going ahead ulth the northern area, even though it would cross over 1nfo some of the southern property, would not constitute expansion of that non-conforming status. The £AW we felt the fact that our ordinance ls pretty sophisticated as far as what the Council would require, we really don't feel we'd be gaining much by dolng an EAW. That does not meet the mandatory requirements so we certainly could ask for one but we felt that we've gone into quite a bit of detall as far as what we've asked for and as information. The other area was the vlsual lmpact. I thlnk that's of most importance to the neighbors too. Again, there uill be some additional gradlng belng done that u111 cause trees to be removed but we feel that the exchange of the loss of the trees, we've also leveraged that by asking for reforestation so there's klnd of a trade off there. Agaln, we've kind of recommended that there's four alternatives that the Council can do at this time and one is approve the application wlth all the conditions outlined previously in the staff report. Deny the application and then come back with a Flndings of Fact of the reasons for that denial. Modify the request, and approve only that portlon relating to the clay and the open area. Eliminate the southwest corner. There ls the concern that was ralsed at the Plannlng Commission meetlng, previous to the Councll meeting, regarding the sedimentation pond and the dralnage and what that would do to some of the wells in the area. And the fourth option would then be the, require the EAW. And we dld note in there that it would take, before thls would come back, lt's a lengthy tlme period. 30-60 days to get it back and have it published before you would see it again. That's all I have. Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Is there anyone at thls tlme that would like to brlng any additional facts before the Counc117 Yes, please state your name and your address and who you're.representing. Rick Sathre: Your Honor, my name is Rick Sathre with Sathre-Berquist in Wayzata. I'm the consultant for Mr. Zuiers. The engineering consultant. I City Council Heeting - August 24, 1992 think the biggest outstanding issue last time, at least in my mind, was the issue of view. The neighbors or anyone along the bluff buys a piece of property or a home with the idea that they're going to have a view. And their view is important. I guess what the people up there see largely is trees but in the wintertime they've got views across the valley. We have a videotape with us tonight that we'd wish to show if we may to the Council showing some of the view issues. (Rick Sathre then showed about a 15 minute video presentation to the City Council showing different views from the property and looking at the property from the adjacent neighborhood.) Rick Sathre: Well thanks for that indulgence...they have the trunks and the branches. The clay mining operation, if it's permitted, would happen during the construction season so when the leaves fall off, the work is going to come to an end shortly thereafter and then the ground gets covered wlth snow. The southwest pond that would straddle the property line of the north and south parcels, that work would go on, it probably wouldn't start until next year or after and that work would go on into the future. But again, if there's any questions we'd be happy to try to answer them. Thank.you. Councilwoman Oimler: I do have a question. In the Planning Commission Hinutes z was readlng that there was some ooncerns from the neighbors about the well water and the levels to which you were going. Would there be any danger to thelr well water. Since thls could be a public safety hazard, publlc health hazard, I know at the time that you said you didn't have an answer for that. Do you have an answer for that now? Rick Sathre: Well let me explain what's happened then and since. The information that I presented that night was some impressions that I had as an engineer. One thing that I said was that the proximity of their septic systems to their wells would be more of a hazard than our drainage into the ground 1,000 feet away. The second thing I noted was that ground water movement is toward the flyer. That the aquaflr ls sloping downward as it gets toward the river and I guess an example of that fact is all the springs that you see along river valleys and along gorges. And another thing is that the bottom of these seepage ponds that we're proposing to excavate, there may be some perched water tables close below the surface but for the most part, the wells in the area are at or below the Minnesota River Valley level. Below the rivet'itself and we're still way, way hlgher than that. The bottom of these ponds would still be 100 feet or so above the river. So there's all that soil to filter the water and it's only rain water to begin with. Since the Plannlng Commission public hearing, this matter was reviewed by the Watershed District at their regular meeting in July and the Watershed englneer concurred that there should be no hazard. No danger and they approved of this request in July. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Are there any other questions? Councilman Workman: By Ursula? Councilwoman Oimler: I'm through. City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 Councilman Workman: You showed an awful lot of videotape on the west side of the rallroad track right-of-way. What does that have to do with it? Rlck Sathre: Well what I hoped to show was whether or not the people could see the railroad corridor itself. The homes above. Whether the tree cover was sufficient enough to block their vlew of even that corridor. Because the excavation in Moon Valley would be lower yet. Would be below the corridor and to the east of the corridor. So if you can see the rallroad corridor, you can see down into the pit. I think in the wintertime you may be able to. Just like you can see across the whole river valley. But rlght now you can't. Mayor Chmiel: Any other questions? Rick Sathre: There was a secondary reason too, Councilman Workman. One of the neighbors had testified that there really wasn't any erosion problem in the rallroad corrldor and there is, and that's typloal in the area. Zt's not an unusual thing. Councilman Workman: Well I was back there and that face that you showed was obviously there for as long as the railroad. I mean I threw granite rock from the roadbed at it and it was probably harder than rock. In fact lt's so hard you'd expect to see bird holes in it. Zt's too hard for birds. $o I mean it's been there for what's considered to be erosion, it didn't seem 11ke there was a whole lot. Over as many years as it's not been taken care of. 30 years or whatever. Rick Sathre: Or longer. A lot longer probably. Mayor Chmiel: Many people don't even remember that being a railroad right-of-way. And we can't flnd anythlng on any of our maps withln City Hall that showed it as such. Michael, do you have any specific questions? Councilman Mason: No. Mayor Chmiel: Richard. Councilman Wing: Ursula asked the one I was interested in. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. You mentioned something about the washout area. That should be filled. What would be your suggestion to eliminate that and what should be used for that kind of fill within? Rick Sathre: Well honestly my solution wouldn't be to fill it but just do what we're trying to do which is direct the water back away from it. But if there is going to be an actlon taken, if Counc11 agrees wlth the Watershed and says, fill that ravine up. Then ~ would think we'd be pushing clay and puttlng topsoil over the top of it to try to get it to match the ground on either slde. Or it could be left as it is and over tlme if the water doesn't continue to run down through there, it would develop some grass and tree cover on lt's own. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. But removal of the 250,000 cubic yards of clay, what depth would that, or what would be the depth of the, what am I looklng for? What would be the depth of that hole that would be existing? City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 Rick Sathre: In general we're talking about lowering the elevation of about 22 acres. 20-22 acres. Within that area there would be two seepage ponds or ponding areas dug. The southerly one, actually we'd be excavating the deepest point would be about 25 feet. But in general, across the whole 20 acres or so, the mean depth or the average depth that we're digging to is about 10 feet. So it'd go from zero to 25 and average. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. That's going to be contained as clay and stay. We're not going to see any seepage possibly going through that either. No percolation. Rick Sathre: Through the remaining clay? Mayor Chmiel: Right. Rick Sathre: Well it's very, very tight clay and it would be very slow so the water would tend to run to the low points which are those two proposed ponding areas in the north part. And there we'd plerce through to the sand underneath and the water would seep into the ground in those depressions. Mayor Chmiel: What is the depth of the clay within that area? Rick Sathre: Well the backhoe excavation that was done in the ponding site showed it to be 25 feet. The contractor has taken some sotl borings as well and I'm not sure if, I haven't seen them but have you guys seen them? But one of the fellows that's here, the man that did the videotaping, he had dug through, down to the sand layer at 25 feet. And I'm sure it's different tn different parts of the site. Mayor Chmiel: You'll be able to go to those soil borings or not right now. You don't have them? Rick Sathre: No. They were done for the contractor that's working at the landfill and they haven't been released to us. I haven't thought to ask before the meetlng. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is there any other questions from the Council? Councilman Wing: What about restoration? Would you cover that briefly? I mean what guarantees do we have? Kate Aanenson: We would requlre that one of the conditions in our previous memo that there be a letter of credit and we 'also got some recommendations from Alan 01son from the DNR and what he felt would be the appropriate amount. Councilwoman Oimler: Are you still at the $50,000.00? Kate Aanenson: The original condition was $121,000.00. Number 6 in the staff recommendation. Councilwoman Oimler: 121. Councilman Wing: $o the net effect of this is at least 22 acres is going to be lowered 10 feet...still with the clay base underneath it of 13 feet. Traffic's City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 all running out to the northwest right, northeast rather, right to County Road 1. So it really doesn't even effect Chanhassen per se. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion? Rick Sathre: Your Honor, one thing I'd like to reiterate. Last meeting I mentioned that, it hasn't been talked about tonight and that is that the clay removal operation is a separate thing from that southwest pond excavation. The clay operation is really that of the landf111 contractor so if thls ls approved, a letter of credlt amount somehow should be spllt betueen what guarantees of the work in the clay minlng area and that whlch would be applled to that southwest pond. And I had done a rough calculation of about half and half ls how it's split. About $60,000.00 in each area. But that could certainly be staff verified. Thank you. Councilwoman Oimler: Just one point of clarification. You're not asking for any variances to the setback from neighboring properties are you? Is there any area where you'd be getting into the setback? Rick Sathre: We're asking for a waiver of the 300 foot distance that we're supposed to stay away from the property line. The reason we're asking for that, it's not a variance. It's a walver. The reason we're asking for that is erosion's occurring out near the property lines on the east and the west and if ue don't go out there next to the erosion scars, we can't get the drainage reversed and brought into the mlddle. So no, we're not asklng for any variances and really there's no. Councilwoman Dimler: You're just asking for a waiver of them. Rick Sathre: And there's no permanent use permit being asked for either. The excavation lsa temporary permlt. So there's no home bulldlng or anything proposed at this time. Councilwoman Dimler: Jo Ann, are you comfortable with that waiver? 30 Ann Olsen: Kate should probably be answering that. She's been involved in t hls more than I have. Councilwoman Oimler: Okay Kate. Kate Aanenson: Well I'd turn it over to Roger. The way I'm understanding it, he's asking a waiver to get in and work to control erosion, not to do mining. Councilwoman Dimler: And then to leave. Kate Aanenson: Yeah. So I'm comfortable with that. Roger Knutson: We've discussed it at length with Paul when he was here and he was very comfortable. Councilwoman Dimler: You're comfortable? Okay. City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone that wishes to come forward at this time and provide additional comments? Cathy Bartholow: I'm Cathy Bartholow and I live at...Oeerbrook and I guess maybe what I would start off by saying. I really appreciated the video. That was very helpful for me to see...what lmpacts this would have on our area and the neighboring area. I not...but I do have some pictures. One individual cannot be here tonight. I was kind of surprised at. The individual building this lovely home at the end of the cul-de-sac. They have a direct view of Moon Valley right now and with trees. Without trees, this is a pretty direct view. You are able to and actually if you would have asked us, I would have asked you out to back of my deck and you could have taken some pictures from there... because it really is deceiving to look from the end of the driveway, which in this neighborhood are quite long, to what we actually see in the back. The vleu is just part of what I think we're all here to talk about but I guess what I wanted to just let you know ls that there's a 11ttle bit more to lt. This is the view of the north...from our house. This is the view of our house from... parcel. These pictures didn't turn out real well...another parcel of land which was mined and has not been restored. And I think the impact is that, that's our concern. We don't want to look at that. We want to make sure first of all that ue don't have to see something like..' I have a couple of questions. I appreciate the response as far as the water concern. We have to trust that that is the case. That the water does go downhill to the river and that during the next storm we're not golng to have that problem. I guess my question ls, if we did have a problem and the water was contaminated in the well because of this, who is responsible for that? Mayor Chmiel: Yes, if you'd like to address that, please do. Rick Sathre: I don't think there's any answer because it would be so hard to find what the source is. If there was danger, it should be cut off ahead of time. Not allow it to, our ground water is precious. We don't want to contaminate it. It's hard to find, unless it's a point source, it's hard to find the culprit. Here where we're just changing the surface of the ground, there's no industrial use or anything like that happening. I don't think it would be possible to determine where a pollutant came from. I don't have an answer. Cathy Bartholow: And then I know you don't have pollutants that you're working with but as someone, and I don't know really what could be on the ground...but the concern I have ls, okay I'll trust that you guys know what you're talklng about and hopefully we have documentation that records that, but I want to make sure that if there's something wrong with that documentation, what ls our fallback point?...uhat the recourse would be. Rick Sathre: I don't think there's a reasonable recourse. I think what should be done for all of us is watch upstream from us. You know look for you it would be look to the north and see where is my ground water coming from. Not where is it going to. To the north of you, Lake Riley and beyond. Your ground water comes from a long way away and we're all drinking the same water and we have to watch our for industrial polluters I guess. City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 Mayor Chmiel: Well too, and industrial polluters are normally governed by the State with a NBPS program which is the National Oischarge Permit that they are required to get with whatever they do. And it either disallows them to do with discharging out into the open and of course they're checked on a constant basis by Minnesota Pollution Control Agency. Rick Sathre: And we're all doing a better Job these years. All the levels of government. The wells that used to 11e open when somebody's house was torn down now are being closed properly. Host of the pollutants get directly into the ground water one way or another. Like down an old well shaft so if we do a good job of closing our wells, that will cut off a lot of it. Mayor Chmlel: About the only klnd of problem you could have there ls some klnd of a tanker truck that could have an accident. Cathy Bartholou: I think my concern was more...and things that we were talking about earlier. The other question I have is, the length of time in the north parcel we'd be going through... Rick Sathre: Well that's true. Construction shuts down in the wintertime and so once the ground freezes up, then work would cease say December 15th or something like that and then it would lie dormant until the spring. Cathy Bartholou: Do you know how many months... Rick Sathre: I don't know the answer to that because the contractor's working on, he's got a deadline on the other end to get the landfill work done. Councilman Wing: I'd just got a couple more questions. I was thinking a short tlme perlod here. It was golng to be done in one construction season but we're into August now so we're well into next summer? There really is no time limit on how long this could take? Kate Aanenson: You mean the total excavation or the restoration? Councilman Wing: In other words, does it have to occur only this summer or only through next summer? Kate Aanenson: Well we put a condition on there that July 15, 1993. Councilman Wing: '93. Okay that's, and how about the restoration. When does restoration have to be completed? Kate Aanenson: Same date. July 15, 1993. Councilman Wing: Is that right? Kate Aanenson: Yes. Councilman Workman: And they still agree to that because I thought they had a problem with that last time. July 15th is the day? I had that underlined. Rick Sathre: That's fine for the north parcel. That southerly pond area, that lO City Council Meeting - August 24, 19~2 doesn't work for that. If you permit that, that will happen over the course of future years and not be done all at once like this clay removal. That may not be clear at a11. The south ponding basin that straddles the south property line is partly in the pit and partly on this north farmland or north parcel. The mining operation is taking some sand and it's being trucked around to build streets here and there and do whatever people do with sand on a market driven basis. And so we don't really know. Tom Zwiers can't tell you when all the material will be removed from the pit and when all of the restoration would be done in the pit. It happens just with the market and so that excavation of that northwest pond that straddles the property line would be done over the course of years, not over the course of one. And that's why I suggested that you separate the letter of credit amount because you'd be holding that one much longer. Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you. Yes sir. Please just state your name and your address. 3on Lonstein: Thank you. ion Lonstein, 9861Beerbrook Drive. Just like to make one small point. The Council last time raised some concern about the applicant not complying with Court conditions and things that the Court had said. With the two separate, with the clay mining area, there's a definite time table to be finished by July next year with an amount in escrow which has been proposed at being $60,000.00 and that amount would be enough to restore that meadow area. But with regards to the southwest parcel, the ponding area, there's no definite time table. The escrow amount which would be $60,000.00, would be wholly inadequate to reforest that area because at today's cost, it costs somewhere between $15,000.00 and $20,000.00 to reforest an acre and we don't know when this is going to stop. When it's going to end and my concern is that that area will be left as the pictures you Just saw. Thank you. Councilwoman Oimler: Could I have a point of clarification. I said earlier what was the letter and you said it was $121,000.00 and now he's saying. Kate Aanenson: I'm sorry, I'm not aware of the two separate letters of credit. It could certainly be put together that way. Councilman Mason: It just popped up tonight. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that was a clarification that was done here. Councilwoman Oimler: Oh I see. You're dividing the 121. Mayor Chmiel: Right. And staff recommendations that we had, it was item number 6 that covered the $121,000.00. Councilman Wing: Also this was bought as a meadow and are we only requiring that the meadow be restored and the trees taken out in that one tree 11ne be restored? We're not asking for a reforestation of the meadow are we? That's agricultural land. Maybe if somebody wants to put It back into corn, not trees. I don't believe we're asking for reforestation of that meadow. It wasn't bought forested. They haven't cut anything down. We're only asking for restoration of any trees damaged, minimum caliper, etc, etc, etc, and then reclamation of the meadow area. However that's done. Are we talking just seeding? 11 City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 Kate Aanenson: Right. So we'd have erosion control measures and the like. Roger Knutson: You can spread the black dirt down, 4 to & inches or whatever it is and then you reseed it. Councilman Wing: Topsoil and grass. I just wanted to clarify that. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other questions? Okay, is there anyone else? Richard Vogel: Richard Vogel from 105 Pioneer Trail. I think back at the Planning Commission there was a letter in here from a Carver Soil and Water Conservation District and I think it was brought up that time. It sort of said, they questioned the idea of excavating through the clay barrier to the sandy underlying areas for the holdlng ponds. This would allow for excessive rates to seep 1nrc ground water which before excavation was not the case. Does the clty have a provision for slowing down the rate of surface water to ground water? It would be hlghly recommended to slow the rate of seepage to the ground water. And also the elevation to show excavation depths on the plan map are incorrect. To my knowledge that has not been brought back, I don't thlnk. I may be wrong but I don't think. Also, the breakdown of the letter of credit. It says here for Moon Valley Aggregate, north parcel. And then the Roman Numeral I. Now everything seems to be on the north parcel to come up to $121,290.00 and splitting that would be the $60,000.00. Does that lnclude the reforesting of the, let's say the bluff that's there now on the south in Noon Valley? Is that lncluded in the $60,000.00 to reseed or reforest that? Or is that just the area where the southwest part of the north parcel where some trees uill be taken out? And about how many acres of trees are going out on this southwest corner of the north parcel? Mayor Chmlel: Kate, do you have any idea? Kate Aanenson: I was going to say, it would probably be easier, we've got a complete breakdown that's ln¢luded in the packet. 8ut it includes the site reforestation for the north parcel, which would be topsoil, reseeding and mulch, eroslon control fencing. I'm just glving you itemlzed the thlngs that would be. Erosion control blankets, slope stabilization, reforestation of all slopes. Richard Vogel: Well this is reforestation. Now on some of them you're only going to see them. I guess I'm kind of, where do you do which? Kate Aanenson: This letter was put together by engineering so I guess I'd let Charles. Charles Folch: I'm sorry, what was the question? Kate Aanenson: The reforestation estimatatlon and letter of credit. Most of that ls for the north parcel though. That's correct. Richard Vogel: But part of the condition of using that southwest corner of the north parcel was to reforest the big scar that's there now, lsn't that rlght? On $60,000.007 12 City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 Kate Aanenson: No. $121,000.00. I"m not sure where that $60,000.00 keeps coming in. I'm not sure. Mayor Chmiel: It's the total of $121,000.00. They want to divide those two onto the two different parceIs. Kate Aanenson: We're recommending $121,000.00 for the north parcel. Richard Vogel: So then that would not include the south parcel? Kate Aanenson: Right. Rlchard Vogel: Then ! thlnk we should better get that straight where that's going to come from. Kate Aanenson: That's what Dave recommended. I think put together it says north parcel, recommending $121,000.00. If you look at Dave's letter. I'm not sure if Charles has clarification on that but that's what it looks like. Richard Vogel: And then this, what this Carver Soil and Water Conservation Olstrlct was asking too and, do you want me to finish and then let Rlck get up. The other thing was, if you do go to those homes that are on Oeerbrook Lane, I think those are all 2 1/2 acre lots. If you just sit in your house and look at the tree ahead of you, you maybe can't see the southwest parcel or the mintng operation but you've got 2 1/2 acres. You can walk over and it is very vislble from when you're on there on your lot. And I think Cathy did say you know, taklng the pictures from Oeerbrook Trw11, which was back a ways, does not give a clear ptcture when you look down into the valley. My main concern is that.there is something there you know to fix up what they're doing and I don't think you can, what do you want to say? Reforest or reseed that scar that's on the south parcel now for $60,000.00 plus what they're going to take out the trees out of the southwest corner of the north parcel. Also, there's no time l£mit. That w111 just go on. How much can they take out of that southwest corner of the north parcel? I haven't heard anything definite on that and I guess that's where I"11 leave. Mayor Chmiel: Do you have any comments? Kate Aanenson: Paul Newman from the Soil Conservation District is here. He's here for Halla but ifyou had specific questions, he could probably address those. Councilman Wing: Just while we're on the subject of money. Rick, one of the examples we have here is the breakdown of security letter, and it specifically says the north parcel and it specifically spells out the north parcel and ! think the suggestion tonight that breaking that in half maybe isn't going to be adequate. Thls $121,000.00 is solely directed at that north parcel restoration. Kate Aanenson: Right. Rick Sathre: Your Honor, Councllmember Wing. It's my division that's confusing everything. What, I've read this too and I haven't talked to Mr. Folch or to Mr. Hempel who Z think put it together but my belief is that from number i thru 13 City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 3, under (i). It starts out (i), site restoration on the north parcel or for north parcel and they have an item for topsoiling, reseeding and mulching. About $40,000.00. Erosion control fencing for around the perimeter, $5,100.00 and site grading $10,000.00. I think that beyond that, number 4, 5, ~ are actually having to do with that south pond. The reason I say that is the erosion control blanket south pond, it says south pond. Then number 5, it says 2.5:! slopes. Now in the north clay excavation we're not doing anything steeper than 3:1 but in the mine, 2.5:1 is the final slope of the pit. $o I assume that that meant stabilizing the slopes in the pit. Councilman Wing: The 500 seedlings relates to the south also. Not the north. I don't believe there's 500 seedlings or trees required on the north half. Rlck Sathre: Right. There's none. So that's why Z broke it the way I did. thought it was about half and half but that's my interpretation. Mayor Chmiel: But that is not really what was intended for that. Where we would dlsallow the 60/60 on that particular aspect as far as we're concerned. From what I'm understanding from what Council ls saying. Rick Sathre: So you'd put the whole letter of credit amount on the clay mining excavation and there wouldn't be any on that south pond? Councilwoman Dlmler: That would be separate as far as I'm concerned. Mayor Chmlel: Yeah, that would be separate in addition to what's exlstlng for that 121. Right. Councilman Wing: That $121,000.00 as I'm reading it, is including more than the north parcel so that breakdown's not accurate. It's not even a number we can connect at. Rlck Sathre: I would suggest that the staff clarlfy the number and I guess if there was a big problem, we'd come back to you. Councilwoman Dimler: Last time I brought up the concern that we kept talking about the north parcel and the south parcel all together in one permit and it's confusing. Is there a possibility that, are we considering one permit for both or are we considering two permits that we are trying to approve in one shot here? Kate Aanenson: ...I'11 let Roger answer that. Roger Knutson: Tonight the application is for one permit. Councilwoman Dimler: For both operations. For the north and the south operation. Roger Knutson: You've already given a non-conforming use permit to the south operation. For the mining operation on the south. Terry Beauchane: The south part of the north operation... 14 City Council Heeting - August 24, 1992 Roger Knutson: Just the bluff area. That little piece of the bluff area. Councilwoman Dimler: The south part of the north operation so we're just approving a permit for the north operation with the restoration of the south part of the north. Okay. Roger Knutson: We're requiring that restoration of the south as a condition. You're not aIlowing the mining on the south. Ali you're doing is requiring restoration. Councilwoman Oimler: Okay, but what I'm saying is that if I approved of the mining operation in the north, I'm also approving of the pondlng tn the south? Councilman Wing: As part of this one, yeah. But it would have nothing to do with the taklng of the sand out of the south wtth 3:1 bluffs on it so. Roger Knutson: You've already approved that. We've already approved the permlt for the south operation. We've litigated it for several years. We've gtven a permit for it. Councilwoman Oimler: So that's separate? Councilman Wing: That's done. Rick mathre: Your Honor, we have only applied for one permit but it has two different dlstlnct parts to it and that's how we vlew it. When I sat down, Hr. Vogel asked me if I would address the issue of how much tree loss there'd be to do the south ponds. Zf we could put an overhead up that shows that south ponding area, that would help. I think it'd be best if I went to the screen to deal with this. Right now this triangle, well this area which ts the southwesterly facing slope, that's treed. Mature trees as is much of this area down in thls part of the slte. There's in the vtdeo you can see there was regrowth trees. There's a low spot in here and there's a ridge that's wooded. South of this line the excavation and the mining permit and the grandfather mining operation, taking all trees south of this line. What would be taken to build this pond would be trees in this triangle here and how big is that? Let's see. On this map it would be trees right in here. In that little triangle. I supposed lt's probably 2 to 3 acres. Something 11ke that. This ts 160 acres from here to here and down to that corner. So this would be 40. It might be as many as 5. 2, 3, 5. Somewhere in there. Councilman Workman: How about the ridge? The trees on the ridge? Rlck Sathre: This ridge? There's trees on the north face of that slope. They're raising from the south, from this line south...m£ning operation. That's the issue. Hr. Krauss supports the 1dew anyway that it might be reasonable to take that intermediate ridge out. Just the south face of this whole pit area is void of trees. If this ridge line ls removed, then everybody that's south gets a full view of this wooded slope that's never going to change. If you take the scar landscape away, you see what's beyond it. That's what we're asktng to do. But it would sure, it results in tree loss to accomplish that. And that activity is really very separate from the clay mining. It has it's own merits. What we gain from doing that is expose that wooded slope to full view and also 15 City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 create a place for ponding to occur before the water goes farther south. And the loss is, what we lose is the trees that are in the slope. Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else? Terry Beauchane: I'd like to see if I can get this point. My name is Terry Beauchane. I live at 240 Flying Cloud Drive. I'd like to see if we can get this point clarified because contrary to what you people may be thinking right now, I think you're about to be duped. This is called divide and conquer. This is his door into the north property which Judge Kanning has not allowed at this point. As soon as you authorize this permit, it's a two part permit. One is to take clay out o¢ the north portion up there but the other is to do this, what do you call it? Ponding which is also in the north part. To do the ponding, he's going to do mining. Excavating. He's already admitted, or at least his spokesman has, that it's an ongoing operation. No limit. No time. Forever. I hope that sinks home to you people. And if it doesn't, go down and stand on 16~ and look at Moon Valley and that will tell you what it's going to look like. Ponding operation, my foot. That's his door- to open so he can go back to Judge Kanning and say, see. The Council said we can go into the north part of my property now. Everything is grandfathered in. I don't care what you say. Legality or anything else. We all know the legalities. Only as good as the person's character who's putting his signature to the document. Right? He's been to Court. He's kept you in Court. He's spent our money. This is his way of getting in to the north property and I hope you people see it. Because he's telling you right there in black and white. Mayor Chmiel: Okay thank you Terry. Yes sir, Councilwoman Dimler: In response to that, could you reiterate my concern about the linkage of and Roger' how you feel about that? Roger Knutson: Judge Kanning has ruled in our favor. That he has no non-conforming use rights in the north parcel. Terry Beauchane: But you're giving it to him. Once you give him this permit. Roger Knutson: Nothing you do today, whatever' you do, will change that. That's already been legally decided. That he has no non-conforming use rights. Period. Councilman Wing: So taking the clay off the north has very little to do with what he's doing on the south. Two separate issues. Roger Knutso;~: Right. We will not give him any non-conforming use rights. You give him a permit, then you're giving a permit to do it. But that's not based on any non-conforming use rlghts. Thls w111 not muddy that water in our opinion. And believe me if I thought so, even as frustrated I think as anyone. We've been litigating thls for years. Councilwoman Dimler: So by putting a limit on the north to clay only and a speclflc date, then that's lt, up in the north parcel, that's it? Roger Knutson: Then he's done. 16 City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 Hayor Chmiel: There's only two winners in this situation. It's both attorneys. Roger Knutson: It's been very frustrating. Mayor Chmiel: Yes sir. Earl Peterson: Good evening. My name is Earl Peterson. We have 180 acres just east of Moon Valley and down on the farm I guess we like to shuck it down to the cow, so let's do that. You hear a lot of likes and dislikes here but likes and dislikes have absolutely to do with this. We have to all obey the law. And law of the land says that no private property shall be taken for public use without just compensation and that's the United States Constitution. The Constitution of the State of Hinnesota says...13, private property shall not be taken, destroyed or damaged for pub[ic use wtthout just compensation therefore, first paid and secured. Now it's nice that we all like on somebody's else property but unless you own it, you don't have any say about it. And you know, I've had an ongoing operation on my farm for 30 years. A lot of corn and soybeans come off of there. And everybody's got the right to do with their property to their best, what they llke. You've got the right to drive your ktnd of car. I can't tell you to drive your kind of car or paint your house or whatever. These are rights and these are freedoms, and the Constitution does not give us these freedoms. The Constitution protects these freedoms. Now the [asr three Supreme Court decisions upheld all this. This last one tn Just 3une of '82. States must compensate landowners for regulations, and that was down in South Caro[ina. Here's one of 3une of '87. Where the High Court...landowners rights and it says, in a major property rights decision the Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that landowners must be compensated when government regulations bar them even temporary from using their property. The Court by a 6 to 3 vote said regulations such as zoning ordinances that impose new limits on a loaners use of land may amount to the taking for which the Constitution requires just compensation. So it doesn't matter what we like and dislike. ! don't like a lot of things in life either but [ have to face reality and I think we all have to face reality. And if we don't stand up for somethlng in this country, we're soon going to have nothing. And if they do it to my neighbor, then they can do it to me. They can do it to you. Hayor Chmiel: Earl, I'm sorry I missed, what was your address? Earl Peterson: I have a farm in Eden Prairie, 18700 Flying Cloud Drive. Let's see, deveIopers deserve compensation if their Iand is restricted. Another Supreme Court regulation. So here we are. If we restrict this feIlow from using his property to what he wants to use it' for, then we have to give him just compensation. Now I'm a taxpayer and I don't like that. I don't want to pay him my just compensation and I don't think you shouid e~ther. I'd let him get his own. Let him do with it as he wants and I think when it gets all said and done, that thing can be deveIoped or landscaped to the best of everybody's, you know where you can see something where you want to see.. It isn't going to be an eyesore. It's aIready there. You've got to deal with reaIity. We've got to do what's right. Now zoning to be legal has to be a contract and it has to be a benefit to both. Otherwise it isn't legal. You can't just arbitrar[Iy say Earl's got to drive a green car. I want to have to drive a green car. But anyhow, I get a little nervous up here. I'd rather be out In the cornfield. But anyhow you understand. I can give you copies of this tf you want. 17 City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else? Councilman Wing: As long as we're on that subject. This land was zoned agricultural. Bought agricultural. The City had rules. The City had zoning ordinances. He knew the game I'm assuming so there's no question what the game was when he bought this so these aren't rules in effect after he bought the land to penalize him. He's simply not willing to live with the rules that existed when he bought it. Is that clear? I want to make sure that's where I'm standing. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. Roger Knutson: When he bought the property, it required a, I think at that time a conditional use permit to mine and anyone has the right to apply for a conditional use permit. Councilman Wing: Okay. So we're not restricting his use? We're not just granting another use? Roger Knutson: One of my favorite subjects to talk at length about this but I won't do that because you want to go home tonight. I'll just leave it to saying, there is no taking issue here. If you want to go over all the Supreme Court cases, just give me a call, I'd love to talk to you about them. Councilman Workman: Are you saying that we can say to these people they can't take anything out of there? Roger Knutson: It wouldn't constitute a taking of property because you'd have other reasonable uses of it. From agricultural to single family homes. It would not envoke the taking clause. Councilman Workman: So you're saying, we can say to these people, you cannot remove anything. You cannot mlne thls property. Roger Knutson: I'm saying, that would constitute a taking of his property in my opinlon. There's no questlon about that. You do have an ordinance. And your ordinance specifies conditions and if you comply with the conditions, you're not creating a mess out there, then you're entltled to a permit. It's not based upon the Constitution, at least not that provision of the Constitution. Based upon your own ordinance... Councilman Workman: So you're saying we can't not allow him? Roger Knutson: If he complies with the ordinance. Councilman Workman: And he ls doing that. Roger Knutson: That's your judgment. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that's your judgment call. Councilman Workman: The ordinance is open to judgment, okay. 18 City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 Earl Peterson: Maybe I can clarify that for you. The law of the land, the misconception is that any statute passed by legislature bearing the apperance of law, constitutes the law of the land. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Any statute to be valid must be in agreement. It is impossible for both the Constitution and the law violating it to be valid. One must prevail. This is, whatever that word is, stated as follows. And it's in American 3uris Prudence 177. The general rule is that an unconstitution statute, though having the form and name of law, is in reality no law but is wholly void and ineffective for any purpose. It goes on a little farther but. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else? Emily Pischleder: Emily Pischleder, 185 Pioneer Trail. I guess my concern is that we all pay residential rear estate taxes and I just want to know how many years coming ahead as what's already happened behind do we have to put up with a commercial business operation being done behtnd us with whatever, the noise and everything entalls? So that's my main concern is the tlme thing. Is this going to be done in a year and then 2 years later again and again? Mayor Chmlel: Okay, thank you. Is there anyone else? Richard. Richard Vogel: I guess I'll just say it from here. I'd still like a definition if there's one permlt for the clay mining and then the ponding area in the southwest corner of the north property which will go into the old Moon Valley. That ls under one permit and there's no tlme 11mit as to when he can mine in that southwest corner. How far can he go with that? Roger Knutson= The City Council will decide how long he can mine on the southwest corner. That hasn't been decided. I haven't heard anyone vote on the subject matter yet. There's one permit for the north parcel and one permit for the south parcel. They're separate permits. Richard Vogel: What about the part where they're connecting? What permit is that? Roger Knutson: You mean the reforest, what are you talking about specifically? The reforestation? Richard Vogel: The ponding area in the southwest corner of the north parcel. Roger Knutson: That's part of the north parcel. Richard Vogel: But they're going into the south parcel to do that. They're taking some trees out of the south parcel and there's some of the ponding area that goes from one parcel to the other. That's it up on the map. Roger Knutson: The stuff from the north parcel is under the north parcel permit and the stuff from the south parcel would be under the south parcel permit, if a north parcel permit is granted. Mayor Chmiel: It's getting to the point where I think we're having enough discussion on this and I'd llke to. 19 City Council Meeting ~ August 24. 1992 Councilwoman Dimler: Could I just ask one more question? Mayor Chmiel: Okay, one more question. Councilwoman Dimler: In regards to the last concern that was brought up about the timing and how long is this going to go on. I'm wondering, has anybody ever discussed the end use plan and what are our, how can we get that going? Do we have anything there that we can work with? Roger. Roger Knutson: Certainly, Mayor Chmiel: Go ahead Roger. Roger Knutson: Have they supplied an end use plan? Kate Aanenson: A reclamation type plan? Not yet. That was one of the requirements that they do that. I just want to clarify too. We put in there that all operations cease within one year. I mean that's yOUr perogative if you want to but that's what the staff recommendation. We have the one year requirement. People have been throwing out different options but that was the original staff recommendation. Was the one year. Jo Ann Olsen: Including the ponding area. Kate Aanenson: Right, everything. Councilwoman Dimler: It all has to be done within a year? Kate Aanenson: Yeah. That was our recommendation. Mayor Chmiel: We had it shown that ail mining operations and site restoration would be completed by July 15th. Now that has slipped one month. And if you want to keep that at July lSth or August 15th, that's our perogative. Councilman Workman: Do we have a list or an idea of the dimensions of the pond listed here? What are the dimensions? Kate Aanenson: I'm not aware... Mayor Chmiel: Do you have that? Rick Sathre: Your Honor, I could estimate each of the pond sizes. Are you thinking about the one in the north parcel totally? Councilman Workman: Yes. Rick Sathre: May I come up here? Mayor Chmiel: Sure. Rick Sathre: North is to this side. This is the east property line... This is the central pond. This is 1 inch to 100 feet. So across the very bottom it's about 100 foot wide area. The length is... This is about 250 feet from there 2O City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 to there. It's about 250. And t hls ls, well t hls ls about 150. $o it would be 11ke a football field or a little less. Councilman Workman: How about the bottom one? Rick Sathre: This one? Well that one, I have to get another drawing. smaller. This the ponding area that straddles the south boundary and actually the excavation area would be the triangle, this shape on the north parcel. This is i inch per 200 feet. So this is about 600 feet across the base. The total area that would be excavated would be... And this third pond which is up on the north...area that was once mined. Councilman Workman: [ think there's, I apprec£ate all the comments and Mr. Peterson's comments make a lot of sense. There's a lot of wisdom in that and the Constitution and rights and everything. I think we take that £nto account every Council meeting. We try to. And so we try to do the best we can with people's rights without infringing on the other. If I own an island next to Mike's island and Mike decides he's going to start manufacturing pig manure on his island and that ruins my opportunity to have a nice resort community, I guess my island isn't worth as much as I thought it would be unless I get into pigs. But the more and more we've talked about this, it's been sort of just a project that I've been kind of concerned about but suddenly ! realize why these ne£ghbors are so fr£ghten. Because we don't really know the dimensions and we don't know the times and how long is this going to go on. Zt could be, Z don't think that these neighbors want to infringe on anybody's rights anymore than their own properties but this is a huge, huge project that to me still has no, not enough de£nition to it. It's kind of a blob. We don't know, still don't know. Z've got to believe that with an environmentalist like Paul Krauss saying this isn't a bad idea, [ have less reservations because if you harm a tree, Paul has a problem you know. But Paul's not here to reassure us maybe on what he had in mind. I think we need a drop dead date on the whole thing so that these people know whether they should sell their homes or not. The dimensions of the pond and realistically how much time it will take to construct that pond I think need to be before us before we can make a decision. As we ask more and more questions, Mr. Beauchane's concerns sort of became a reality then. $o I think we're still, ! know we had a tour of the south part and I've walked the north part with Mr. Uogel and I still have his mosquito spray in fact. But I very much feel uncomfortable about it. Z don't know if an EAW might not be a good idea to give us, or rest more of our concerns on that and maybe staff can give me an idea. There was a petition filed. Boes that mean we have to do the EAW? I mean it's starting to seem llke more and more that should probably be done. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, that's fine. I think too that some of the things that we're looking at and showing on drawings that we've seen and everything that we have had, are a little sketchy. It's not really detailed and shown. Soil borings. I'd like to know what those are as well. I have some concerns with that. And ! think that would sort of substantiate some of the additional things that Tom has said really. I know-we've gone through, we're the RGU within tt but still deemed Z think by Council. At least Tom's position until we have a motion. That an EAW be done and this is going to have to be published in the EOB Monitor as well for a 30 day period. And that means that after that period of time it would then come back to Counci1 with the determinations of the RGU, which is still the City, to come up with those additional answers that we're 21 City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 still looking for. And I don't, ue don't have it and lt's just too loose. I'd just 11ke to see that tighten up a lot more than what ue've done. I understand what ue're looklng for ulth the restoration of the other plt and I don't disagree with that. We do want that and that's still going to come. But I thlnk we best know exactly where we're standlng wlth uhat we're going to do thls evening and get clarifications and a little more information. Well I should say clarity contained wlthin so we know just exactly where ue're going. Councilman Wing: Let's get an aerial photograph too. We can blow that up and then we could have an overhead with an aerlal view to show us exactly what we're talking about geographically. And I'd like to see the Oimler linkage dealt with here. Tie both pleces together in the schmatic so ue can see how they intermix. These costs need clarification too. I think you brought that up didn't you? Mayor Chmiel: Right. So with that, I would entertain a motion at this time. And that could almost be done as to per discussion that we've just previously had. Councilman Wlng: The motlon would be table pendlng an £AW for clarification of the questions brought up by Council. Councilman Mason: I think maybe we should have a little discussion about the EAW flrst or are we all in agreement that that needs to be done. I mean we've got staff saying they don't feel that's necessary. Mayor Chmiel: Well, there are still some things that are still loose and that's still not providing us all the information so that could be dictated by the EAW. Councilman Wing: But staff may have that. I'm agreeing with Mike, staff may have that information. Watershed District saying the water, there lsn't a problem. Infiltration will be normal, etc, etc, etc.. Paul may have that information that would satisfy us. Councilman Mason: I guess I'm not, I'm on the fence on the EAW thing but I agree with you Don. That there are a whole lot of questions that need to be tlghten up before we can act on thls. I mean staff is saying on one of the recommendations that all mlnlng operations and slte restoration has to be completed by the 15th of July, 1993 but now I'm hearing that can't possibly be done. Well, these thlngs need to be worked out. I don't think we're anywhere near approving this yet. Roger Knutson: I know it's difficult this evenlng because Paul's not here and he has the most expertise on this. But maybe if Paul brought back all the information, he met wlth the englneer and the applicant, maybe in 2 weeks you could have the answers sufficient so you could act on it and maybe an EAW would not be necessary. I don't know that to be the case but maybe you'd want to glve the applicant that opportunity to meet with Paul and bring everything back and give it one more shot at your next meeting. In the meantime you won't lose any ground. After meeting with Paul, if Paul decides an EAW is necessary in his own mlnd, then he can just tell the applicant that that's his recommendation and you're probably going to follow it and he can get going on bls EAW. But tf everything can be tied up wlthout that, maybe he should be glven that opportunity. There's a lot of loose ends 11ke he said that maybe could be City Council Meeting - August 24. [992 resolved without the EAW. You can have an RAW but there has to be findings and potential for a significant adverse environmental effects and what not, Mayor Chmiel: Right. That could be so concluded with this as well. But [ think probably with your recommendation to put it to the next Council meeting for that, to see if it's resolved and if it's not resolved with that, we can mandate the RAW then after that. Roger Knutson: That's correct. Councilman Mason: So moved. Councilwoman Dimler: Second. Councilman Workman: Is that a tabling motion? If I can Just add a couple things. ! guess taking into account number 14, on how long or how long they need to complete the project. It seems 3uly [5th is off. I guess I'd like that to be further looked at in relationship to number 3 which would, I would hope disinclude Saturdays and make it Monday thru Fridays. That would maybe have to extend it out. So that might just make a situation go longer and maybe the neighbors don't appreciate that. Kate Aanenson: Can I comment on number 147 This is kind of a philosophical argument or we just need to get some direction from the Council on because we said one year and we feel comfortable staying wlth that. They're saying they can't make that one year, for whatever reason. They want to continue extraction in that area. We need some direction from you as far as what you feel comfortable giving them that drop dead date because if you want to separate those two. Yeah I think the other issue, some of thls information we know we don't have. If you want to give direction for the applicant to supply some of thls, I mean I have notes of I think there's some information that definitely you need to make a better decision regardless of the EAW but as far as separating those two, I think we can complete the north parcel reforestation within that one year but as far as the ponding, if they say they can't meet that, what sort of information would you like them to provide to say why they can't meet that and how long they think. Is that what you're looking for? Councilman Workman: Well, you know I asked them about how many trees and well about 3 to 5 acres. Kate Aanenson: Right, we can get more detail on that, certainly. Councilman Workman: Yeah, and then how big is the ponds and we didn't know that and so. Kate Aanenson: I've created a list of things. Councilman Workman: If their engineer doesn't know how wide or big or deep that pond is, surely he wouldn't know when it would be done. And I guess I go back to this, our bluff preservation ordinance and somebody wants to bu£1d a deck wlthin i foot of that line, we say forget it. And boy I tell you, if you want to build a deck on the bluff, you're open with me. 23 City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 Kate Aanenson: I just want to make sure when we come back next time we've got enough information so you can make a decision. Councilman Wing: You know because of the time involved we've spent on this, I'm not so sur a tour down there wouldn't be in order to really clarlfy this visually. At least I'd 11ke lt. I've walked it but I st111 have trouble identifying the sltes. Kate Aanenson: I thlnk your suggestion on an aerlal photography would be helpful too. Mayor Chmiel: I think the decision can be done rather quickly. Either aye or nay or whatever it may be, or the EAW. So wlth that we have a motion on the floor and a second. Go ahead. Councilman Mason: I just wanted to quick ask some of the families that are here, if it came down to Monday thru Saturday or Monday thru Frlday and they're going a little longer, what's your preference? Audience: Monday thru Friday. Mayor Chmiel: And that throws off their timeframe too. Councilman Mason: Yeah, and I understand that. I understand that but I certainly share, in fact I brought it up at the 24th meeting. If I lived there, I wouldn't want those trucks Saturday morning. Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dialer seconded to table the Noon Valley request to mine clay under Interim Use Permit ~92-5 until the next City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. 3on Lonstein: Mr. Mayor, could I ask that if you do have a tour...ue'd like to accompany you. Also, I'd like to invite you to come and see the view from our point of view from our properties. Not from the street but from our decks and from our rooms, and I'd especially like all of you to arrange to...because his deck ls the one that ls most close to the southwest corner of the north property. Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT TO LOCATE A PORTABLE CHEMICAL TOILET ON MINNEWASHTA HEIGHTS BEACHLOT. Kate Aanenson: Minnewashta Heights is asking for a conditional use for a portable toilet. This beachlot did receive a non-conforming permit allowing 14 boats just recently. It meets all the standards that we have in the conditional use as far as being anchored down and landscaped and screened. We had recommended that a trellis be put up around this area and in reviewing ulth the Plannlng Commission, they felt that it was screened, based on this redwood fence rlght here and the canoe racks, that additional screening may not be necessary. That really it is a pretty nice situation. Basically we recommend approval with the conditions in the staff report. 24 city council Meeting - August 24. 1992 Councilman Wing: So moved. Councilwoman Oimler: Second. Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Any discussion? Very well done. To adopt it as to the Council approving Conditional Use ~92-1 allowing portable chemical toilet on Minnewashta Heights Homeowners Association Recreational 8eachlot with the following conditions of 1 thru 4. Is that correct Kate? Kate Aanenson: Yes. $ would no longer be. Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Oimler seconded to approve Conditional Use Permit t92-! to allow a portable chemical toilet on Hinne~ashta Heights Homeowners Association Recreational Beachlot with the following conditions: 1. The applicant applies for a license from the city on an annual basis prior to installation of the portable chemical toilet. 2. The portable chemical toilet shall only be permitted from Memorial Day to Labor Day and shall be removed from the beachlot during the rest of the year. 3. The beachlot shall be maintained in good condition in a manner consistent with previous approvals and current ordinance requirements. 4. The portable chemical toilet shall be located in accordance with the application/plans received by the City on June 26, 1992. All voted in favor and the motion carried unani~musly. Mayor Chmiel: I think probably our mosquito control in parks is maybe going to be just a little bit longer than what Halla Nursery one might be. And I would accept a motion to move that from, and just switch 4 and 5 around. Councilman Wing: I'll so move Mr. Mayor. Councilwoman Dialer: Second. Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dialer seconded to anond the agenda to s, itch items 4 and 5 around. All voted in favor and the notion carried. DISCUSSION OF GRADIN[ PERMIT FOR ~a~.LA NURSERY, 10~00 ORERT PLAINS BouI. EVARD. Mayor Chmiel: Is Mr. Halla here? Jo Ann Oisen: Neither Mr. Halla or his son are going to be here tonight but they still wanted us to go ahead with this item. Councilman Mason: I was just going to make a motion. Jo Ann Olsen: Go ahead. 25 City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 Councilman Mason: I'd like to move that this go before the Planning Commission, as is one of the options. Mayor Chmiel: Well we do have Mr. Paul Neumann from the Soil Conservation here this evening and I'd like to get a little bit of information from him. Councilman Mason: I'll withdraw that for now then. 3o Ann Olsen: Well, we're putting him on the spot but essentially Paul was asked to come if you had questions about how bad it really was or if they were doing it correctly. I don't know, do you want to maybe give your history. What your involvement with them. Mayor Chmiel: Paul, why don't you come up here to the mic. Paul Neumann: Paul Neumann. I'm with the Carver Soil and Water District and I did see that everybody's got a copy of this letter. I happened to be on site when that survey was run, that original. We ran a profile down through there. You know could I use that up there? Mayor Chmiel: Certainly. Paul Neumann: If I could just real fast... You start up here and again the overflow is running like this out at the nursery site. And the bottom of the gully was...going along like this. But in this one we had another real steep drop off and it continued on down like that. At this point here, it was already getting'to a situation where by the time we would have tied the fill in, gotten up here where we could pond water, we ended up with something like this where you had a real small pond and our design... Plus, this means that this bottom isn't stable yet... What happens is this...all the way up. So this is an unstable situation right here and in our letter, that's what we were trying to stay away from that thing because if you built back here, that's when it went over that point. Nou I don't know where this dike is anymore in relationship to...but I do know that if a...and this is one of the things that scared me a little bit when I first saw it is the pipe. I don't know if the pipe is going through like this and coming out. If it's ben%. If it just comes up here or if it goes down like so and comes out. What happens with any dike like this, you get what they call a...line and that's where you have like literally flowing mud the dike so if your dike isn't long enough, and it starts seeping out the back side... $o that's why way back when we suggested was he just went back and would have somebody engineer it. Figure out what was in there and how it was constructed to make sure that the pipe was solid one way or another. Because without that...water's traveling underneath the pipe. The only way you could fix it, that I would think you could, you'd have to extend the pipe out an awful lot further and really secure that pipe in a really solid, I mean really solid in clay and then run in fill all the way back out to here to secure it...in my 25 years, ue have never saved structure yet once it's been... We've tried fooling around with them and everything else and they end up where the pipe ends up down the gully someplace. Mayor Chmiel: Paul, do you have any idea as to taking care of it in the proper manner, what costs would be entailed in that? 26 City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 Paul Neumann: If he can get the fill for little or nothing right now they, if we were going to go in there and work on it He'd have to lower the water down. Siphen it out or whatever. Drain it down. Dig everything back out, including the pipe and then relay everything again and then start from the bottom and go up. Zf we were golng to do lt. And even if the fill was free, lt'd still be all the excavating and repacking that pipe and tt'd be a lot of. Mayor Chmlel: The type of fill and soils best used within that would be clay? Paul Neumann: Right. Just solid clay. When we put in a dike or anything like that, in an area like that, we clear out all the brush, topso11, debris, everything and then it's core trenched. That's where you cut a V rtght through the exlstlng clay on each slde that you can get a notch of clay that's not even native to the area. You bring it in there. Pack that down so you don't get, otherwise your entire berm could also just start s11dlng downhill. Mayor Chmiel: Good. Does anyone have any other questions? Thank you. Is there any discussion from Counc117 I was going over thls with some of the questions and concerns that were had before. And I don't think that 1,000 yards ls really golng to take care of the situation whatsoever and some of the other concerns I have is there's some significant amount of organic nursery material being dumped wlthln this area too whlch fllters on down through and eventually can get back into the river. And having such really can cause more given problems. Z appreciate Mr. Halla's concern in trying to substantiate and keep that dike or the ponding area there. But to take over some of the things that he's talking about, 1,000 yards is not golng to come anywhere near close. At one time there was a request for 100,000 yards but somehow or another that was never carrled through so we've not really gone through that part of lt.' I also understand that we have some pictures from staff too that there are appliances that have been thrown into that particular area to eliminate flows from golng down and through. I guess there's another issue that came up was about the gate. I think the only thing that staff ls really looking for was a gate to disallow other people from going into that area to dump other klnds of material. And we're not looklng for additional fencing as long as it covers that particular area as well. It's just a gate to eliminate other people from going through that process. If and when we were ever to go through thls particular process, I think I'd like to see staff being present when.anything is going to be done. Maklng sure that whatever is done ls being done in the right, proper engineering manner so we don't come up with those problems. I don't know, I guess maybe that's about some of the things that I had seen and also the type of fill that he was going to use and that clay that I had indicated before because anythlng else you put is just automatically going to just wash away and build up. So with that I open this back up to Council. Ursula. Councilwoman Dlmler: Well after having read all the reports, it was obvlous to me that that dam was never properly engineered in the first place because tt has requlred emergency measures over the years and Ithtnk a more permanent solution is indicated here. I think the fact that Mr. Halla withdrew a former request that was made in 1990 because he did not agree with the conditions also indicated that the erosion of the dam may not have been his number one priority and yet [ found it comlcal that he was urgtng us to make the "rtght choice" regarding the environment. ~nd yet the proposal here, which is supposed to be environmentally responsible has not proven to be a permanent solution to the 27 City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 erosion. And I was wondering, as I read that there were appliances and tree debris in there that maybe he was using this as a landfill and I think that my position would be that I'd have him go through the proper procedures for an interim use permit and have professional engineering. Mayor Chmiel: Paul, let me ask you another question. If they were to, this was to be built, and having an 18 foot say...3:l slope, would that be an acceptable? Paul Neumann: I'd have to check our engineering manuals on that .... something that we could work with. One of the things that comes...back side, that it could well require a terraced back sloping which you'd have a step where we put the water off the slope and then divert off the water... Could quite easily... So it's going to be, it will take quite an expensive plan. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. Even though this is on private property, are there any dollars out there available to assist in this kind of a proposal? Paul Neumann: I would say there wouldn't be any Federal or State dollars because I think if we were looking to solve an advancement...you could do it with what we call water and soil...which would be constructed literally up in the nursery itself given the...because we've been receiving directives right along. Go for the least cost solution to the problem... Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Any other discussion? Tom. Councilman Workman: Well, it sounds like Mr. Halla's right. Right? Mr. Halla's correct. The danl is going to go and he's going to have a big problem. However his method ls not correct it sounds like and the pictures don't look real frlendly for a guy who uses the word environment. But so I mean do we have any options? I mean do we just modlfy? It's clear, I think we all know what buslness he's ln. He's in the nursery business and he probably has a lot of extra fi11 and a lot of extra stuff. Oo we allow him to fill and take care of a problem but make sure he's not puttlng, by-passing the landfill? Mayor Chmiel: I think you can condition that if you so choose to allow him to put another 1,000 yards lnto that location. Councilman Workman: Just 1,0007 1,000 won't really do anything though will it? Mayor Chmiel: Not really. Councilman Wing: Well but what would 100,000 do? Is that the fix? Is that the permanent fix? Mayor Chmiel: I think 100,000 would probably, Charles give me a little feed on that? Charles Folch: 100,000 yards is a lot of material. Mayor Chmiel: That's my thought. Councilman Wing: That goes all the way down to the river... 28 City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 Mayor Chmiel: I thought we'd be building a bridge over the River Kwai. Councilman Workman: So I mean are we going to, Mr. Halla's not here tonight so I'm assuming he's just leavlng it to us. Zf it goes, it goes. It's on his property correct? Paul Neumann: There ls one thlng... Mayor Chmiel: Sure Paul, do you want to come up to the mic one more time because then we can't plck thls up on our Minutes. Paul Neumann: One other thing and that is, what you could do, there is such a thlng as the State law about dam safety. And all dams and man made dams, dlkes, and such, I think they're in pounds. Certain amount of water. Certain height. You have to meet a certain standard no matter who builds them and if they don't, I think that because we have to have the dam that is on Oarrel Hesse's property happens to be one that we bullt. And that one we have to look at just periodically to make sure that it's not eroding or look like it's going to be a hazard for anybody downstream. And you mtght want to look into that because there are some State laws regulating impoundments 11ke that. And whether he'd want to keep it or not keep it or flx it or not fix it, then it would be 11ke I think some State laws that would enforce whatever you wanted to do wtth it. Mayor Chmlel: Charles, would you check lnto that. Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, that kind of brings us down, if I could bring the sequence here. The discussion has gone nowhere the two nights we've discussed this. We don't know what's there. We don't know if it's safe. We don't know how we should fix lt. And every recommendation in every packet we've gotten says there should be a professional sotl engineer. A professional and the professionals are recommending that we get a professional. So we know what's there. What should be there. What a professional, permanent fix would be. Is there a safety hazard and I don't think we can go ahead any further on anything, including allowing any more dirt in there until we find out what's there, is it safe and how do you permanently fix it. And If lt's nothlng but fllled alth trees and debris, lt's probably going to be, no amount of dirt's going to fix lt. Or solve the problem. Now I don't know how we would get to the polnt of demanding that or asking for that but he asked for 100,000 cubic yards of dirt to be hauled in but yet he didn't want to spend $3,000.00 to flnd out from a professional how to build it, fix it and... Maybe the City has to absorb that cost just for it's own safety of the people downstream of that thlng but I think to go any further without a professional engineer's study and opinion on that dam ls foolhardy at thls polnt. Councilman Workman: But we can't require him to do that. It's on private property. Oldn't they bulld lt? Who built that? The Corps of Engineers built it? Mayor Chmlel: No. My understanding is that that was done strictly by Mr. Halla himself. Councilman Workman: So I mean, we can't requlre hlm to do anything or spend $3,000.00. If the dam goes, what does the clty have to do with tt? Because City Council Meeting - August 24. Z992 then, and I remember last time they said well then what we're going to do is when the erosion gets back to our farm fields, then we're going to start filling it from there and there's not anything you're going to be able to do about us putting it there. I don't know. We need to fix the problem. I think you're right. $3,000.00 doesn't sound like a whole lot of money right now to me. Mayor Chmiel: No, that's true. In the long run I don't think it really is. But it depends on who's pocket it's coming out of, yours or his. You know, that's really what it's hinging on. Roger Knutson: There's really two issues you're wrestling with. The first issue is, if he wants to put any more fill down there, what does he got to do to get your permission to do so. Are you going to direct staff to issue a permit for l,O00 yards or would you want him to go through the interim use permit? That's issue one. Second issue, and really actually is a separate from it. If he doesn't do anything at all and there's a safety problem out there, what can ue do about it? I mean the first one I think you can easily address. The second one, I think we're going to have to do some research and get back to you. Dam safety laws and maybe there's something there. Councilman Workman: I'd approve Option 3 and move that. Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah, because 1,000 yards isn't going to do anything so why approve it? Roger Knutson: A quick suggestion. Maybe adding 1,000 yards will make the problem worst. Put the wrong material in or put it in improperly, that's l,O00 yards that's perhaps got to come off someday before you start dolng it right. Mayor Chmiel: Conceiveably, yeah. Roger Knutson: I mean I don't know. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion. Is there anyone wishing to address that at this tlme? We have a motlon on the floor. Councilman Mason: I'll second the motion for Option 3. Mayor Chmlel: Alright. Any other discussion? Jo Ann Olsen: What exactly is that? Councilman Mason: That's going back to. Councilman Workman: That we need professional advice and dam specs. Jo Ann Olsen: So you're saying that they cannot do anything and check into the safety issue? Councilwoman Dlmler: Yeah. We're den/lng the 1,000 yards and dolng extra research. 3O City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 Roger Knutson: If he wants to put in fill, he should come in for an interim use permit. Councilman Mason: Which would then go before the Planning Commission. Councilman Wing: How do we get the professional opinion on this dam? It's his property. Who pays for it, him or us? Mayor Chmiel: It's his property, it should be his dollars. Roger Knutson: We'll check out the dam safety laws and advise you as to whether there's anything that's applicable there. Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Nason seconded to deny the request for 1,000 cubic yards of fill and approve Option 3 for the grading permit for Halla Nursery. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. ~O$OUITO'CONTROL IN CITY P~RKS. Todd Hoffman: Add a little bulk to your packet. Mr. Mayor and members of the City Counc11..Put aside for the moment the issues of Eurasian Water Milfoil and goose control, mosquito control ls here. The Park and Recreation Commission reviewed extensively the issue of mosqulto control in the city's parks and has forwarded the following four part recommendation to you. Number one, in regards to larval control briquettes, allow their use to continue providing notification of the treatment areas and times are provided. Number two, in regards to adult mosquito control chemicals, cold fogging, to eliminate thetr use and to re-evaluate this program in the fall of 1993 or next year. Number three, they had been landing the helicopter off and on at Lake Ann. In regards to the landlng, take off and loading of MMCD helicopter in city parks, this praotice shall be prohibited. And number four, that staff and the city actively pursue other measures of controlling mosquitoes such as volunteer groups who are willing to remove breeding site containers, possibly plugging tree cavities. That has been done in the city Previously. And whatever else we can do from a community standpoint to control mosquitoes without chemicals. Staff concurs with thls recommendation as you've seen tn my memo. I flnd that it w111 not present residents with any undue hardship. I would be glad to address any questions that the City Councll has in this regard and again, there are probably possibly members of the audience who'd like to speak in this regard. Mayor Chmiel: I have just a statement. I don't want the city to be a catalyst between Mr. Rivkin and Mosqutto Control. I think if that's a real problem between the two, I'd just as soon that it be dlrected tn that particular fashion. I don't disagree with some of the things you said and of course gettlng slck from that spray, just a note. About 3 years ago or so, my wife was out in our back yard, she had gotten sprayed with it as well. Fortunately, she dldn't get slck from it. But it can effect people in different ways and I didn't know about it until I started discussing it wtth her. She said let me tell you something, and she did. I was amazed that she didn't tell me about it before hand. But with that, is there any other questions that anyone else might have? Michael. 31 City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 Councilman Mason: A real quick one. Number one there Todd. About the control briquettes. That one hits home to me a little bit because two years ago I was wandering around down in the ponds down by where I live and my little girl has one of these in her hands and I quite honestly, I had no idea what it was. How are we going to, what's the notification process? Todd Hoffman: This would have to do strictly with City park property. If you want to deal with the notification process outside of park property on private land or otherwise, you would have to address that with the MMCD. As the Park and Recreation Commission, they strlctly handled thls lssue as it has to do wlth publlc park properly. Councilman Mason: So, what kind of signs are we talking about here? Todd Hoffman: We have an example of a sign. It was posted at Lake Ann Park prior to their adult control at Lake Ann this past July 13th. They did not notify the City of that spraying per their agreement with us but they posted a slgn whlch was a card about this blg on a stake at the entrance to the park. We simply feel that the accountability of another governmental agency performing operations within city park property ls not too much to ask. Councilman Wing: Is there some other history we ought to know about here? Any other local communities nearby tell them to go away? Todd Hoffman: Items in your packet, which are hard to reference simply because of the length but yes, there are other clties. Other municipalities who have taken a look at this issue and have elther banned their use or restricted it. Councilman Mason: I was glad to see the recommendations about ending cold fogging and prohibiting the helicopter, I certainly think that's a step in the right direction. Councilman Wing: My in-laws are up on Leech Lake and there's no spraying and there's no mosqulto control. They have mosquitoes. I live on Lake Minnewashta and we have mosquitoes. And if I walk through Lake Ann, we have mosquitoes. One thing nice if they'd come out with safe mosquito lotions that are very effective. But if I was to see a helicopter come over my house wlth a spray or my daughter plcked up a briquette, unless they're willing to eat it in my presence, I don't want it in my yard. I don't think lt's that effective at a11. I think it's the most incredible bureaucracy I've ever seen get formed here in my oplnion. I 11stened to the presentation at the, was it the Plannlng or Park? I guess it was Park and Rec. They brought all these high flyers in from all over the country to defend the situation but when it came down to lt, nobody wanted to drink it. It's safe as can be until someone sits and reads the can and lt's golng to cause cancer in little mlce. Much less my kids. So I'm really glad we're addressing this issue because ~ don't 11ke it. My kids, they won't, my college klds belng environmentalists, won't even allow a can of Rald in the house. I don't even have that option anymore. Councilman Mason: Geez, you lead a tough life. Councilman Wing: But they're making a point and they're making a good point. What are we dumplng. And then the highlight was, a month ago in Shorewood golng 32 City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 down the railroad tracks and seeing a lady just reaming on a County guy cold fogging that Shorewood Park over there. Demanding he get out of there and just furlous that he was fogglng that park when she was trying to exercise and jog and I really enjoyed her presentation. And I had to agree with her, and it's so safe but thls guy was bundled up 11ke a moon man you know. And I said, well if it's so safe, here I am in my underwear jogging and you're bundled up like a moon man with aspirators on and saying, something's really out of line here. So at any rate, to get down to seriousness, thank you for bringing this to our attention. I thlnk lt's an issue well worth discussing. I would much rather, if they were going to cold fog Lake Ann Park on the 4th of July for fireworks, my kids wouldn't be there. Pure and slmple. I don't want the rlsk and mosquitoes are not controlled by dumptng tons of pesticides, even though they're safe. Even though they're safe. Tons of pesticides, which brings up milfo11. How much do you spray for milfoil before it's dangerous and you destroy the lake? I mean there's limits here and I guess I'm saying I'm going to put up with mllfoll because I can't tolerate the spraying. And I'm going to put up wlth mosquitoes because I don't want them buzzing my house with helicopters. If the vote was up to me tonight, I would vote to exclude them from Chanhassen but that's my own personal. Councilman Workman: Briquettes also? Councilman Wing: I don't see the reason for the briquettes. I'd have to see their effectiveness proven to me and then in very limited, low lying areas with speclflc reason to. Councilman Mason: Yeah, I thlnk that briquette thing lsa whole another issue. I mean I sit out on my deck for 3 minutes and I've got 20 mosquito bttes and I know there are briquettes down there so 20 bites or 40 bites, who cares? I mean at that point I'm going inside anyway so. Councilwoman Dimler: Recent evidence I think has shown that mosquitoes are purely a function of the rainfall. So in a dry year we're not going to have mosquitoes and ina wet year you do. So I guess I would go along with what's being said here about the effectiveness of the chemicals. I like Option 4 that you have down there but I'm wondering how realistically is it that you're golng to have volunteers. Groups that are willing to remove breeding site containers and plugglng tree cavities or whatever else needs to be done to control it without chemicals. Have you had any feeling for what's the public saying. Todd Hoffman: Simply by conducting a litter pick-up at Lake Ann Park or any other community parks, which we do on a routine basis through community organizations, Girl Scouts, that type of thing, will remove breeding sites. But again, it's a drop in the bucket. It's a move towards the right direction but realistically, if we think we're going to control mosquitoes well. Councilwoman Oimler: Yeah, and plugging tree cavities and stuff like that is a little bit more extensive and to get people to volunteer to do that, I wonder. Todd Hoffman: Correct. That occurred from a few years back when there was the lssue of the dlsease carrying mosquito. Councilwoman Dimler: The encephalitis, yeah. 33 City Council Meeting - August 24. 3.992 Todd Hoffman: We had sacks of concrete out in the front hallway here and people came in a~d headed home and sealed any of those cavities that they saw in their area. Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. Now in the interest of public safety, are we well enough informed in, prior to a case of encephalitis when encephalitis bearing insects are in our region? Or do we have to wait for a case to appear and then we're all up in arms ].ooking for it? Todd Hoffman: The Park Commission addressed that extensively and the recommendation comes forward with that in mind. That issue being addressed. Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, well I like the four conditions at this point. Mayo;' Chmiel: We haven't had our parks sprayed in a year? ii months. Todd Hoffman: Other than July 13th. I have the numbers that Mr. Ross Green of the MMCD did forward to the city on cold fogging treatments. In 1992 we recelved no treatments. It was a backpack treatment he lnformed me out at Lake Ann. 1991, no cold fogging. 1990, Lake Ann received five treatments, Lake Susan two, and the Rice Marsh Lake Park one. In '89 no treatments so again as I ralsed in my memo, the lssue is not much of an issue. It just hasn't been done. Our folks are out there in the parks utilizing them. There are mosquitoes there certainly...in my back yard and in yours but we learn to tolerate them. Mayor Chmiel: No, I can't tolerate them. I just go inside. Councilman Mason: That's right. That's the answer. Mayor Chmiel: It really gets to that point where there can be 15 people out and 2,000 mosquitoes and you know who they're going to nibble on. councilwoman Dimler: You're so sweet. Mayor Chmiel: ...any other discussion? Councilman Workman: I just had one thing. We aren't going to let Eric talk I guess huh. Mayor Chmiel: Well, we might. I think we've gone through. Excuse me, I've got one more packet that we brought. Councilman Workman: Isn't it Eric V. for volumes? I agree with most of this really. I mean I tell you what, I've been sitting out at the 4th of July every year for 5 years and lt's been the same every year. I mean nothing's changed. I fee]. nothing has changed. It gets dark, the mosquitoes come out. But very early in the packet, because I only read 2 pages of it, no. Erlc makes the polnt that you can live by the ecology and the way the system works is, after two seasons wlthout chemical mosqulto controls in my wetlands at Lake Lucy, mosqulto annoyance feels less than it was wlth chemical control. But the important sentence ls, the difference might be in the hordes of dragonflies that return to eat mosquitoes along with frogs and snakes after the chemicals 34 City Council Meeting - August 24. 1992 disappear from our property. We've known this for a long time that those kind of things, a healthy wetland will take care of itself but we're always kind of tinkering and so everything that I think the Mosquito District wants to do kind of goes against that. And so I don't feel any different. This is really a no brainer for me to say, gee. Let's do without something I didn't know was really working anyway. Councilwoman Dimler: Can we get our property taxes back then? Mayor Chmiel: Well really the cost and the cost that it does on that for the city, we pay a half percent and normally 1~ entalls roughly about $90,000.00 so we're paying about $45,000.00. Councilman Workman: Can we opt out of the system? Mayor Chmiel: There are other things of concern. How do we really address this? How do try to eliminate what the given problems are as far as mosquitoes are? What do we do? I get a little concerned with this encephalitis. More specifically with young children. Just to cite the July 4th. We all stood on my deck. It held us up. And my granddaughter who is 4 1/2 years old. She's a11erglc to just about everything and she has asthma bad so you can't spray her with mosquito repellent. But she wanted to watch this and I said now, constantly just keep brushing your face away. She did some of that and her dad doing the same thlng. When I saw her the next day I thought she had measles. I mean he face was just literally covered. She was bundled up so she could not be bitten fully as she could have been if she has been in a pair of shorts or something. So it is a bad situation. Of course Carver County has been chastised by Hennepin County as the growlng fields for mosquitoes. And I know that the briquettes that have been put out in use, from my understanding and talking with some people, other than Mosquito Control Oistrict, they say that is the healthful way. Unfortunately your daughter did pick one of these up. Probably more do, that's another question. But I think we have to really look at this fully to come up wlth a conclusion as to how, and what's the best way to really do it. Do we eliminate it? We're not going to get rid of mosquitoes. We're just going to have that many more. If we get rld of tlres or the breeding, wet areas. Once it dries they come back. Councilman Workman: Don't we have enough history in this thing? Is somebody going to come along? Have they proven, maybe somebody can tell me if it's in the packet somewhere. Isn't there enough information that says this program ts working or is not working? How do they measure their results? How can you measure the results? I guess everybody here is saying, we don't thlnk lt's working or maybe is not worth the risk but are we exposing our community to some other dlsease if we say no to briquettes and everything else. I would thlnk they would somehow begin to arrive. Is this a protected bureaucracy that isn't going to go away no matter what? I mean hey, it's not working folks. Thanks for your efforts. Why don't you...Hobility Transit program needs some money. I mean are they at that? I know there's a debate in the legislature and places. We have some local legislators that are very active in ti. Councilman Wing: I think the night of the Park and Rec, they brought up two separate programs. One is the mosquito program. The other is the encephalitis. What they're dolng at Lake Ann is different than what they're doing out by the 25 City Council. Heeting- ~ugust 24. 1992 Junior High School so I would make an exclusion here. Just again my opinion, when we opt out with the exception of the encephalitis program. Where it's identified. Where lt's known, that it be attacked aggressively and there they are using briquettes and they're filling the cavitles and getting rid of tlres and the cans and so on and so forth. There I think they're providing us a servlce that's well worth the money and the effort, but it's ~ separate program as I see lt. Councilman Workman: One of my questions for the larger question ls, uhlle we don't believe in the Met Council so ua're going to not fotlow what the Hat Councll says and does. Hosquito Control Dlstrlct lsa reglonal government that has a certain amount of power somewhere. Can the city say, maybe we can get Roger, can the city say we're golng to plck and choose what we want to do here? Roger Knutson: I think the answer ls no but let me look at that. It's on publlc property. They have statutory authority to go out and do their thlng and they don't rived our blessing for lt. But I'll double check that. That's not something that comes up too often. Councilman Wing: What if Hr. Rivkin then threw him out of his neighborhood? Roger Knutson: Oh clty property, sure. You can keep them off clty property. Councilman Wing: Then Hr. Rivkin has the right to keep them off his property, which he chose to do. Councilman Workman: What property can they go on? Other'e property. Roger Knutson: People who don't complain. Hayor Chmiel: Is there anyone here from Hosqulto Control that can answer that? Bob Shogren: Good evenlng. Ny name is Bob Shogren. I'm the director of the Mosqulto Control 01strict and I've enjoyed your discussion here thls evenlng. I'd be happy to answer a few of the questions. First of a11, the program is a regional program that ls directed at identifying the most prollflc mosquito breeding locations. Of some ?0,000, we rank them. Map and rank them and treat the most proliflc ones and those areas, we make these treatments on to surpress the numbers. Now on a reglonal basis, as you get inslde of the working area of the district, further than where Chanhassen resldes, you get the surpresslon effect from the program. Unfortunately you are near the perimeter or near the edge of it and these mosquitoes can readily move 15 to 30 mlles. Regarding eating of the material, the briquettes, I'd be gladly to eat good parts of it. I don't thlnk I'd eat the whole thlng because lt's the slze of a rock but I'd be happy to eat a quartet- of it in front of you. That material is approved for use. If you thlnk it's funny, lt's even more funny that if you look at the material, it is approved for use in cattle feed thru. Chicken feed thru. This Norman feed block that ls for face fly or for horn fly control has the exact same materi~l in it that's in a mineral block so it ls approved and it is a materlal that does not have any actlvity on humans. Z say actlvity because insecticide in this case, it's a mimic of an insect hormone that is used to regulate lnsect growth of these particular insects. Humans don't Maya any receptors to have, to recelve the effect which is a growth regulator. 36 City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 Regulation. We can get into that further but I respect your frustrations about having mosquitoes. I share those same frustrations as administrator of the program. I've been in mosquito control for 32 years and here for 17. You have an area here in Minnesota that has extremely extensive mosquito production. We do not have, nor am I proposing that we should have, funds to treat all the sites which produce mosquitoes. I also live in a perimeter area and we have mosquitoes. Our goal is not to eliminate the mosquitoes. It's to reduce those numbers and again Chanhassen unfortunately is at a perimeter of the developed metropolitan area and you receive the infiltration of a lot of mosquitoes that come from outlying areas. Regarding adult mosquito control your feelings, like you say, even though it's safe. People don't want it and we're hearing this. We've begun 2 years ago, 3 years ago to develop, to encourage. We can't afford to develop it nor should we, but to encourage development of a whole new concept of mosquito control which uses attractants. We hosted an international conference in 1989. Brought in 17 of the world experts in this field. It can be done. It will take a while to be done but adult mosquito control, people don't like it. We've heard that too. And so we are reducing the adult mosquito efforts because of this. We are a service agency. We should be servents and it's my goal to be servents to what the people want. We all live in times of change. Change is inevitable. We don't have any trouble with that. We are striving. We have a group of professionals that are well trained and I'm very comfortable with the decisions that are being made to rank order all the mosquito producing sites. Treat those that have the highest numbers to bring those numbers down. And those numbers, in terms of evaluating the effectiveness, I'd be happy to demonstrate. Take you into the field, show you prime mosquito breeding areas. Where we're treating. Collect the mosquitoes that have been treated with the hormone. Follow whatever the numbers of adult mosquitoes that emerge from these places. The material leaves. It does not effect this. There's a lot of common conjecture that merely is wrong in terms of, you know talking about the dragonflies and stuff. We're not treating places where dragonflies develop. Those are in lakes. And dragonflies are not a major production. In the shallows, the most prolific areas that mosquitoes produce are in what you'd call wild hay meadows. The places where they go in and they're wet and dry. They have reed canary grass in them. 93~ of all mosquitoes, and we have 50 different species. We work primarily on 10 but the most common is about 70~ of all the annoyance is caused by one species and that one develops ~3~ in wild hay meadows. That's the places we focus on. Perhaps I might answer specific questions you have. Again, I respect Mr. Mayor and members of the Council, I respect your total responsibility to do what's best for the citizens of the community and it's my job to serve you in the best way that we can to meet the needs that you have. Mayor Chmiel: Good. Ooes anyone have any specific questions? Councilwoman Oimler: I'm just wondering, what is your opinion of the rainfall amount and how that effects the population and tf your program does anything at all for that? Bob Shogren: Okay. It is true that the mosquitoes are stimulated to hatch the eggs which can lay dormant for 6 to 8 years and accumulate over time. As you get very heavy rains, the egg bands are hatched and that as the rain stimulates the hatch. That we are not able, over the some 3,000 square miles of the metropolitan region, we're not able to treat all the mosquito breeding sites. 37 City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 We focus on treatment of the most prolific ones with thls 80/20 approach. There are places that we go by that we do not treat because they have lower levels of mosquitoes in them. Those lower leuels of mosquitoes in areas such as Chanhassen as a perimeter, create a background population that, like you say, if you've got 20 or if you have 50, what's the difference? Unfortunately, that ls the case but in the large regional context, that focusing on the most prolific areas does drop those mosqulto areas. We have a quality assurance program that assesses the level of control that is achleved in the treated area. If you look at the difference in the levels of mosquitoes in the exterior areas versus the interior, you would find them to be in the neighborhood of 80~ reduction. It is not complete but also in 7 countles that's covered, the problem is very acute so the choices are not to have any and that's an optlon. Or to reduce the levers to the greatest degree posslble with what realistically should be spent out of many other public demand requirements to suppress those populations to the greatest extent that can be done efficiently. In recent years the program, the legislature and citizens asked us to include biting gnat control. It became a severe problem in the mid 80's and Chanhassen doesn't have a major problem but Hennepin, Anoka, Ramsey, very heavy populations in that control. Recently we also asked to undertake studles on lyme dlsease ticks. We're dolng that work. Councilwoman Dimler: So do you in a dry year then do less controlling? Bob Shogren: Yes we do. Councilman Wlng: What about the statutory question that was brought up? Do you have the right to go and statutorlly what are your responsibilities? Bob Shogren: The responsibilities are to conduct the functions of the Mosquito Control District. If citizens wish, if they have opinions that they choose to hold and they wlsh the dlstrlct not to control mosquitoes on thelr property, that is honored. In terms, I'm not aware of the statutory factor in terms of a city opting out. Z'm not an attorney. That hasn't been done in the past. But it's open to legal interpretation. Councilman Wing: Where can you go to work or where can't you go? I guess is there a simple answer to that? Bob Shogren: We are responsible to inspect and to monitor for pest and mosquitoes. Disease mosquitoes on properties except those that are denied access by the property owners. If there's a dlsease problem such as encephalitis, then we are empowered to go into those properties and to inspect and determine whether those types of mosquitoes are present for purposes of control. But for pest mosquitoes, not. Councilwoman Dimler: Then could you answer that questlon I asked earller about, do we have to wait for a case of encephalitis to show before you're aware that those types of mosquitoes are present or do you know that beforehand so we can take preventative measures? Bob Shogren: We know that beforehand. If we're not barred entry from worklng in the area. We have a LaCrosse encephalitis prevention program and it works throughout those counties where thls particular mosqulto occurs as well as the virus and those areas are surveyed. As you may know, Zumbra Rldge is a City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 classical virus area. Virus contains itself through the presence of the mosquito in artificial containers as you spoke. And tree holes. We have a monitoring program on the.mosquitoes and based on that monitoring program for the numbers of mosquitoes of that type that transmits LaCrosse encephalitis, there are two types of encephalitis that occur in Minnesota. LaCrosse encephalitis in small children is the one that year to year can occur because the virus carries over in the egg of the mosquito which can then come out, even in a chipmunk can amplify. In unusual circumstances, there's a second virus called Western encephalitis virus. That occurs in open meadow country. That one, in the late 30's, early 40's, there were over 10,000 horse cases in Minnesota. In '76,'78 and '83. In '83 there were about 1,000 isolations of that virus in the State. But yes, we can determine in advance by the number of mosquitoes of the type that can transmit. That's the key as to whether control measures are recommended to be initiated. And if those levels are low, then the probability of transmission is low. It's not an all or none but it's a probability. Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. And so at that point did I hear you say if that were present in our area, you would automatically come in and do something with it? You wouldn't need approval to do that? Bob Shogren: That's correct. We can inform you about it but would not need approval, unless you decllne that service.. Don Ashworth: It's been a number of years ago, but I'd seenlsome of the correspondence that had occurred between DNR and your agency in terms of treating the lower Minnesota River valley area that had literally been taken over wlth the control of that by DNR. Some of these same questions were klnd of posed at that point in time. In other words, the potential effects for wildlife and whether or not you should be in there or not in there. How was that lssue ever resolved? Are you currently treating-that area? Bob Shogren: If I can clarify between DNR and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Servlce so let me first talk about ONR. Because there have been assumptions of environmental harm and that the technical literature has not been regarded as valid by those who make these claims, principally the environmental groups. Mr. Rlvkin and others. In my 32 years of worklng mosquito control, there are about 10 or 15 people who have mounted these claims. The commission has decided that the only way to resolve this ls to set up an independent research panel of technical experts to make the decisions and the environmental groups appointed two experts on thelr group. It's called Scientific Pure Review Panel. After 5 years of research, a report is due out this fall. I can get copies of the report if you wlsh. The bottom line is that the two larval control materials, the bacteria and the insect hormone is specific to the mosquitoes. We have now back to the, BNR has a representative on that Scientific Panel. We have a memorandum of agreement with the Department of Natural Resources. These control materials like the insect hormone does not remove the food for the ducks and for other insects. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, tt's a political decision. That is a political decision that's been pressured by environmental groups. There is not a scientific basis for making'the decision but they allow us to monltor in the flyer valley but they do not allow us to treat. And lt's an interesting approach for me technically because-there's not a valid basis but following the political pressure that they receive, they made that decision. 39 City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 Don Ashuorth: Does that area, you mentioned that the grassy areas are the most prolific as far as producing mosquitoes. Zs tile Minnesota River basin area, is that considered a prolific breeding ground area or does that get into the minor area, the 20% breeding ground. Bob Shogren: Some of each. Areas where there ls reed canary along the shoreline, it's prolific. Particularly where there's a very flat shoreline and times that the flyer valley floods. Where there's cattail marshes, very low production. There is a type of mosquito that's called a cattall mosquito that develops breedlng through the roots of the cattails. That ue do have a control program in areas where there are not fish, as required by the label. And that's agaln the lnsect hormone. Insect hormone does not have an effect on fish but it's a regulatory change that has yet to be taken. Mayor Chmlel: Good. Any other questions? Thank you. Erlc, I'd like to allow you at least 10 minutes. Eric Rivkin: I was going to say 6 but. Mayor Chmiel: It's the old story as they told us in the Army. You expect 10, you get 5 but you get 2. Eric Rivkin: Okay, well I didn't intend that the packet become as thick as it did. If some of you didn't read it a11, I'll recap a few things. And as my letter of June 26th in your packet indicates, I dldn't intend that the debate involve anything more than adult mosquito control, pesticide use in Chanhassen Parks. It can, as Dr. Shogren had sald, and I also know the law very well because I testified in committee at the legislature about this law. Statute 473 704. That allows individual citizens, businesses, or citles, municipalities to object to the nuisance mosqulto contr'ol program. Not the disease carrying mosquitoes, and I wouldn't want to object to it and I dldn't and I can't and l wouldn't want you to. If there's an outbreak of LaCrosse encephalitis, or any other dlsease, I would want somebody to come in and flnd out where the source of it is. However I think there's a little bit of misinformation or misunderstanding about where these mosquitoes breed. LaCrosse mosquitoes breed exclusively in artificial containers and old tires, beer cans, thousands of them lylng in our parks. They do not breed in wetlands and they do not breed in hay meadows. The 90% of the mosquitoes that Dr. Shogren says is called an Aedes vexans and that ls the common nulsance mosqulto that ls the target of the larvacide program and that there's a cattail mosquito..., which is the target of also the larvacldes too, because lt's an aggressive bltlng mosqulto and lt's a target of a nuisance control program. The technical advlsory board and the Scientific Pure Revlew Panels are two independent advlstory boards of the MMCD acknowledge in many publications that the 99.99~ of the budget of the Mosquito Control Dlstrlct ls for nulsance mosqulto control. And I want to explaln the facts, the evidence, regarding any disease carrying mosquito threat in our parks because I thlnk that's the lssue. If you want to, the clty does have the rlght to expand this, the right to cancel the nuisance control program on city owned land as Minneapolis dld. They banned mosquito control in 6,400 acres of parks and city land. The issue here tonlght recommended by the Park Board is parks only and adultlcldes only. I recommend that we keep that, we can vote tonight perhaps to keep it that way for now. Just so we can move on to something else. But if you want to expand it to larvacldes, I won't be back for a long tlme. 4O City Council Meeting - August Councilman Workman: So moved. Eric Rivkin: So, it's 20 after 10:00 so it's up to you. I do want to'say some things. I did not intend for this to become an issue in Chanhassen parks until my son and I became sick last year because of confirmed exposure to Punt insecticide as a result of the MMCD illegally spraying at Lake Ann Park in June of '91. And I'd like to ask you, how many more people have to get sick from chemicals that are scientifically proven toxic to fish, birds and insects, as it says on the labels on these chemicals. These labels are in your packet and the MMCD had a lapse in respect for these labels last June of '91. How many more people have to be needlessly exposed if they're in thelpark when spraying is occurring when our own State Health Department warns us not to breathe the mist. Two weeks ago, the Assistant to the Department of Health to the Commissioner of Health has a report. They evaluated all the scientific literature about health effects of adulticides to people and they are recommending officially, it's in the review of the MMCD right now, that people should not breathe the mist of the adulticides. There's no warning that these chemicals are sprayed on foliage. These little yellow signs that they post in the parks were completely missed by a teacher of pre-schoolers that I videotaped when I was there witnessing their spraying on July 13th. They came, drove in. Played in the playground while the sprayers were going back and forth. Thank God they were down wind or otherwise I would have informed them a little bit more serious threat because it made me sick. And I talked to the teacher up there. I said, did you see the signs they just posted a few seconds ago? She said, what signs. I didn't see any signs. Bright yellow. Didn't see them. They posted them, two of them up in the road in the middle of the park, hundreds of feet away from where they sprayed on the harborage in the edge of the woods. And. you know, completely missed them. And she was worried because some of the kids in her class had allergic allergies. And our Health Department warns that people who have ragweed allergies, if they touch this substance can get reactions as I and my son did. The children at, school children at Crosby Park in St. Paul were there when the sprayers were coming and they were fogging and the foggers of the MMCD told the park naturalist that the stuff is safe. You know we don't, it's not going to hurt you. Keep on doing, conducting your class in the woods where they were spraying hundreds of feet and one of the children noticed, well if it's so safe, how come you guys are wearing masks. Same point you brought up. And-how much more should our wildlife suffer when scientist have confirmed evidence that the adulticide Scourge kills butterfly larvae and many more insects in the food chain than just mosquitoes. This is very recent. 19~2. A study that was done, a conference in Florida. Mosquito Control Center of the United States and there are scientists in here in Gainsville, Florida who have confirmed that these adulticides kill far more. They are not specific to mosquitoes. And there are also reports in here about, comments about larvacides being uneffective. They are recommending to the State of Florida, who spends $60 million for mosquito control for the entire state, that they ban or consider alternatives other than chemicals. That includes larvacides and adulticides. This is the state of the art. This is two months ago and as Dr. Shogren said, things ltke attractants. Beating the mosquito at it's own game. Outsmarting it, is the trend now. In your packet there you see an article in Time magazine bears the same thing out. This is what scientist, not me. Not Or. Shogren but many, many more scientists and experts are in the know about this thing. Z think we should trust them. And so how am I to convince you also that these mosquito, the adult mosquito controls are ineffective as well as unsafe. Well, we've heard the antidotal 41 City Council Mesting - August 24, 1992 evidence. A1 Klingelhutz testified a'[ the last Park Board meeting that people were not annoyed by mosquitoes at the July 4th events. Z talked to the gate keeper and fine lifeguards there who sald mosquitoes were not bothersome thls year. The park hadn't been sprayed until July 13th means that for a whole Fear no nulsance mosqulto control, including no larvaclde treatments surrounding all the wetlands for a full 2 years, shows that natural factors determine the low mosqtllto annoyance. So why do we need lt? As Todd polnts out, in the front page there, people in chanhassen have enjoyed outdoor activities there wlthout mosqulto controls. The MMCD's own tests, which I saw at a TAB meetlng this last March, show that mosquitoes return to normal levels within days after treatment from adultlcides anyway. And if it rains, lt's even sooner. So let's consider the mosquito transmitted diseases for- a mlnute from the big plcture and review the evidence in Chanhassen parks. The mosqulto dlsease program ls budgeted less than 1~ of the MMCO's budget. $118,000.00 for 1992. It consists of a cost effective, and I'm bragglng about thls. It's a cost effective, monitoring and education to remove breeding sites such as tree holes, tlres, litter containers in hlgh risk areas. I'm quotlng from the Mosqulto District's own literature on that one. Craig Hedbet'g who is the Department of Health's representative on the technical advlsory board of the MHCD told me that chemical controls are only used in a local area as a last resort 9~!Y__, underlining the word only. When there is a reported disease confirmed and traced to a particular area and after removing breeding sites have already failed. The common nuisance mosquito, Aedes vexans does not transmit human diseases. Lake Ann Park is not identified as a high risk area nor any of our other parks. The mosquitoes have not been found to carry any virus nor have any cases been traced there to the Health Department's knowledge. Last reported case in Chanhassen was 1984, according to Dave Neitzel of the MMCD. And these pamphlets distributed by the HHCD which are upstairs in a foyer, suggest a threat of encephalitis can be, LaCrosse encephalitis can be 100~ eliminated by education and removing the breeding sites. We can do what the Park Board recommends by on a volunteer basis. The Park Board of Minneapolis gave approval unanimously for staff recommendation to ban ail mosquito controls. Other parks and natural areas in the ? county area which you'll find in the packet rlght here, on the August 4th updated list, does say that tile DNR WildlJ. fe Hanagement area, scientific and natural areas of the DNR have been, are all controls are prohibited. Carlos Avery, the Natlonal Wildlife Refuge in Chanhassen. Hary Hitche11 the biologist down there has long known that mosqulto controls can effect, the food chaln disruption and long before the environmental groups had ever, I'm on the scene recently. And many other parks and nature centers around the Twln Clties area. Since I am an expert on finding tile right information, I'm not an expert on mosquitoes. Z ask the opportunity for you to use me as a resource for facts that question the safety or effec[...mosquito controls. For information that helps some of these park boards and whatever make these decisions. And I think Todd and the Park Board Ilave done a wonderful job and I'd 11ks to, do you want to take time to debate 'the larvacldes, I can tell you facts about them but I just hope for now that you support the Board's recommendation in it's entirety without the larvacide being an lssue. As fat' as the briquettes, I want to respond to a couple of things that Dr. Shogren said. Although it's of low toxicity, not non-toxic, it is not specific to mosquitoes. The study that Dr. Cooper did shows that it does kill midge larve which is a protein source for ducklings. The study hasn't been concluded yet because he hasn't gotten funding to complete lt. As far as it's effectiveness of the briquettes. If you look at their annual report, in a newsprint article that was in the Trlbune recently, over one 42 City Council Meeting - August half of the total acreage treated for 1991 and 1990 is with adulticides. We're talking 220,000 acres. That's 57~ of the total acres treated in 1991. Estimated for 1992 this season is 53~ of total acres treated. That either indicates that the larvacides aren't working very well or we just have too many mosquitoes that are ever going to make a difference with larvacides or what, we don't know. There also have been no mosquito movement studies ever done that really are of any scientific proof. Where the mosquitoes are actually coming from. They have been asked for but never really done. So whether our mosquitoes are just local for here, is a matter of opinion. Mayor Chmiel: You have about 10 seconds more. Eric Rivkin: Okay. The label on the briquettes says, keep out of reach of children. Big letters. It's not approved for use in any fish bearing waters by the DNR. They cannot apply it within 150 feet of any fish bearing area in the water. When they apply briquettes to mosquitoes. Thank you. Councilman Wing: Eric, before you go, just a question. The people that, including the doctor this evening, appear to me to be very legitimate. Very sincere. Very knowledgeable. Very trained in his field. How do you relate to the Metropolitan Mosquito group? I mean I don't disagree with what you say but on the other hand, they seem to be a little more defensive. They come in with information that isn't quite as aggressive as yours and I seem to feel very comfortable with the fact that they are very professional. Eric Rivkin: Well I can only, like I say, I gather information that is quite compelling that either contradicts or compliments concerns about the environment and they're quoted in here in my June 26th letter. I quoted out of this study called Mosquito Control Pesticides Ecological Zmpacts and Management Alternatives. And it's listed under, are mosquito control chemicals harmful to the environment. These are scientists you know, like Dr. Shogren you know. All over the country at the mosquito research center who have studied these for years and years and are coming up with these statements in here. And these are very recent studies so I try to provide you with the most recent things and the most knowledgeable from real experts. Mayor Chmiel: Any other questions? Councilman Workman: I suggest we institute a mosquito banding program immediately. It's funny because I'm thinking of this regional government thing and I'm slttlng in a meeting on a transit meeting not that long ago on a task. A legislative task force and a legislator from Minneapolis chastised our city by name as a clty that's getting away with murder on sewers and expansion and just unbelieveable. Well what the mosquito control dtstrict is telling me is that mosquitoes can travel 15 to 30 mlles. Well that's Minneapolis and St. Paul and we're getting mosquitoes from Young Amertca and then out there. So our job is to help them. Well why should we? You know because that's the way they've got the whole system set up. It's transit and mosquitoes and everything else. I'm starting to get thls trend here you know. The region, we're a part of the region only to help Minneapolis and St. Paul I sometimes get the feeling. Councilwoman Dimler: Not only sometimes. 43 City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 Councilman Workman: I'd make a motion. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, I will entertain one. Councilman Workman: As proposed by Park and Rec. Councilwoman Oimler: Second. Eric Rivkin: We've got one more speaker... Councilman Wing: Then I'd like to hear the MMCO have a short rebate. Mayor Chmiel: We have a curfew time with Council. $o therefore we've heard the pros and cons of the issues. We've read the issues. I think ue have a pretty good idea. A1 Singer: All I can say is that I can be a resource if you're so inclined. I'm the Environmental Ed Coordinator for the Minneapolis Park Board... subsequent decisions. I've worked at a facillty in West St. Paul that eliminated mosquito control...1980's so if I can be, I don't live in Chanhassen. I live in Maplewood... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion by Council? Councilman Mason: One quick comment. I wonder if Park and Rec should be looking 1nrc with some of the thlngs that appear to be coming out now, if we should be looking at even, I'm not sure what's the word. Less participation from the MMCD on parkland. I mean I thlnk thls is a step in the rlght direction and I'm not necessarily advocating that we should but I think we should be looking lnto lt. Todd Hoffman: Specifically at larval control? Councilman Mason: I think that, yeah. Yeah. Mayor Chmiel: It's something we can look at. Councilman Wing: Would you entertain one more question? Mayor Chmiel: Just real quickly, I was curious. Why did Minneapolis Park and Rec's elect to ban mosquito control? What was, did you have a 2 minute answer? A1 Singer: Again for the record I'm A1 Singe;'. I'm a resident of the city of Maplewood and I'm the Environmental Ed Coordinator for the Minneapolis Park Board. We actually had the people from the mosquito control district visit our staff and talk about some of the lssues as it pertained to Minneapolis. Obviously Minneapolis is much different than Chanhassen. By and large the only available mosquito habitat in Minneapolis is parkland and so we looked at literature from across the board, including material provided by MMCD, and basically it came down to several thlngs. One ls, we did not feel that the dlstrict could prove that they'd been effective both in terms of the number of City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 mosquitoes and in terms of the amount of money that has been spent. Secondly, there still are some questions about some of the long term effects that by MMCD's own admission they still do not have the answers for. But ! think the most compelling reason is that ue felt, the Park Board has been working on a comprehensive environmental policy to govern all act/v/ties of the park and recreation board. Now the park and recreation board is much more atonamous than the commission it is here. And so we're looking at things from chemicals that are used in turf management. We're looking at energy efficiency. We're looking at products that are used in our operations and so forth. And so this recommendation to the board prohibiting the use of chemicals for controlling mosquitoes really went along with that policy and that provided the basis for our decision. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. We have a motion on the floor with a second. Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dlmler seconded to approve the Park and Recreation CoiIiSSiOn recommendation regarding mosquito control in the city of Chanhassen parks as follows: 1. In regards to laval control briquettes, allow their use to continue providing notification of the treatment areas and times are provided; 2. In regards to adult mosquito control chemicals (cold fogging), to eliminate their use and to re-evaluate the program in the faII of 3. In regards to the landing, take off and loadtng the MMCD helicopter in city parks, that this practice be prohibited. 4. That staff and the city actively pursue other measures of controlling mosquitoes such as volunteer groups who are willing to remove breeding site containers, posslbly plugging tree cavities and whatever else can be done from a community standpoint to control mosquitoes wtthout chemicals. All voted in favor and the motion carried unaniiously. REVIEW DRAFT OF THE MINNEGASCO/I;ITY FRANCHISE AGR£EHENT. Don Ashworth: Just an update for Council members. I have, Mayor Chmiel and I have been discussing the proposed draft with his experience in the franchise area and I just wanted the Councll to be aware that we are in the process of working on that. If Councilmembers have concerns, if you'd address those etther to the Mayor or to myself. Hopefully we'll have a draft in front of you hopefully by next City Council meeting. Mayor Chmiel: One other thlngs. One of the things that I suggest that we, rather than granting a 20 year franchise, that we look at 10 because things are changing. The other thing to thlnk about is, franchise fees. I'm not advocate of it because you put it back on the residents within the city. They are paying that so it's another klnd of taxation in ltself but that's something we'll just really sort of thing about. I have other things that I've worked in here that I have some comments on. And the other thing Don that I'd 11ke us to do ls to look at our Village of Chanhassen, Carver County, Minnesota Ordinance No. 8. In there I thlnk we've got to make some changes from village to cities and update City Council Meeting - August 24, 1992 this. And also include Hennepin County in as a part of the thing as well as with Carver County. Don Ashworth: That's the original one as it was signed back at that time. I'm sure the codification process, and I didn't make a copy of the most current one. Basically that is the original one. Mayor Chmiel: Right. And then we'd have to insert the new names and company as opposed to what they have in here previously before so we're sure that we've got it. So with that, just something for you to think about. I'd ask for a motion for adjournment. Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Hason seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10:40 Submitted by Don Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 46