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1992 04 29CH~LqSSEN CITY COU~:IL SPECIAL ~EETING ~RIL 29, 1992 Mayor Chmiel reconvened the City Council meeting at 8:20 p.m., which was continued from April 27, 1992. UEHBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilwoman Olmler, Councilman Wing, Councilman Workman and Councilman Mason STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Paul Krauss, Charles Folch, Kate Aanenson, Scott Harr, Todd Hoffman and Todd Gerhardt (CONT~_,~TTON ~ REZONING REOUEST FRO~ P~ TO RSF, ~0 PRELTN~ PL~T REGUEST FOR ~41 SIN~__E F~ZLY LOTS. ~ETL~ND ~LTERATION PER~IT. ~ND 8,2 ~J~ES OF PRRK ~REA LOCATED NORTH OF Ly~qN ~tD EAST OF 6~LP/N BOULEg~O. 3UST SOUTH OF TI~_R~_R~O00 ESTATES. STONE ~r~EEK. HRNS HRGEN HOflES. Public Present: Nam~ fKklr~ Richard Larson Greg VanderVorste Mark Foster Karen Ollson Dave Maenke 3im & Colleen Dockendorf James R. Lano Hans Hagen Start Rud Greg & 3ulie Sorenson Bonnie Murkowski Mary Harrington Jean Dtrand Rollins 3eff Heinz Brad Foley 8141 Pinewood Circle 8141 Mapleaood Terrace 8020 Acorn Lane 8020 Acorn Lane 2041 Renaissance Court 2061 Oakwood Ridge 2060 Oakwood Ridge 941Hillwlnd Road 2030 Renaissance Court 8121 Maplewood Terrace 2051 Renaissance Court 8140 Maplewood Terrace 2081 Ttmberwood Orive 2071 Ttmberwood Drive 2061Timberwood Orive Mayor Chmiel: If I remember correctly, we had this back here at Council with our discussion. I think we've all had an ample opportunity to re-review the entirety of what the project is and where we're going. I know none of the Council members discussed anything with me...project and I none with them and I think everybody is independently come up with a conclusion. As to what that is, we're going to eventually find out. So with that, let's just start with some additional discussions on this proposal. I'd like to start with Mike. Councilman Mason: I think we all understand the issues here. I understand where Timberwood's coming from about not wanting the road to go through there and quite honestly if I lived there I'd feel exactly the same way. I think with just one curb cut on the county road there, that poses a major problem. If we can get another curb cut on that county road, I personally don't have any trouble at all with dead ending or emergency barricade or whatever. I think if we can't get another curb cut there, then I certainly would push to have City Council Heeting - April 29, 1992 Timberwood come to a T intersection and have Timberwood end there and that would be Boulder Orive or Boulder Trail or whatever we want to call it. Paul Krauss: Would you like us to show you why we think there's only one possibility for a curb cut there? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I think it'd probably be a good idea. And I did want to get back from you too discussions with the...apartments as well. Paul Krauss: Down here you have Lyman Blvd.. Lyman Blvd. is ultimately going to be 4 lanes and a very hlgh volume street. And according to the County engineer, we certainly agree wlth him that there's absolutely no chance of getting access point down there. Then you have an area over here where you have to provide clear separation from thls intersection. Here's your major intersection. We need to provide distance back here for acceleration and deceleration for turns that occur. And thls intersections about in the rlght place. I mean possibly you could move it down here a little bit but not very much. Originally thls plat had another intersection rlght over here and in talking to, I think to the County Engineer, we got feedback from them that the slght distance at that polnt wasn't too great. You have a h111 situation on Galpin that tends to tell you that this isn't a terribly safe spot to turn out. Even if you did, you wlnd up with a short circuited loop that really leaves everything else a dead end. So in terms of oomlng out on these roads, we don't thlnk that that's very 11kely. Or will really produce the results that we're looking for. Now, we think that there's a long term possibility of another entrance lnto thls area. I can't tell you that lt's got a 50~ chance of succeeding but we've been looking at it long term here today. Bluff Creek runs through here and there's a very narrow area of residentially zoned property between Timberwood and a creek. It's possible to extend that road somehow up through there and ultimately there's going to be another...to do something 11ke that. Come up and intersect with that. Provide another...access into the neighborhood. There's a lot of issues with that though. Issues being thls area is not terribly deep and I'm not going to...double row of houses in this case. Houses on either slde. That can lead, you'll have a major creek crossing here and we're going to some great extent to make sure that there's a bridge over TH 5 here and posslbly another brldge here. It would be a shame to look at putting a culvert over there. I doubt you can justify the expense of going with a thlrd brldge in the area. So that lsa long term possibility. I don't know that it's a real good one. But in terms of this particular site, there really only ts one point to come out on the county road. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Paul. Councilman Workman: How many acres is Timberwood? Paul Krauss: Gosh, I don't even know. Councilman Workman: 130 some. How many homes are in there? Are you ready for me Oon? Mayor Chmiel: Yes, go ahead Tom. City Council Heeting - April 29, 1992 Councilman Workman: [ only ask because I know that Timberwood is trying to depict their neighborhood as something that's a whole lot different than what people would like to connect it to. 141 homes on 81 acres versus 37 homes on 137 acres is very different. They are very different. I think we all agree with that. If we ran the second entrance to the north there as Paul had shown, this really wouldn't serve a whole lot of homes. I mean this coming out here wouldn't serve or really alleviate from here so something would have to come through back here I would assume. But if we had just one entrance, one exit at this time, really the rest of the neighborhood isn't just coming out on one. They're kind of coming out on really two. Two main all the way through. And as the last four lots or so that everybody's funneling onto one. And I understand the problem with having just one for that many. homes. That does create a problem. I do promote the idea of two. And I maintain as does Hike that I have a problem connecting it together. I talked to Kate today about it and some other people. Not having this road at all stub into Timberwood. In other words, not creating a dilemma that's been created as in Curry Farms and elsewhere. In other words, leave no possibility for the connection. So two on the west. I mean they're showing a dead end and a connection here on the east end. Z mean it's got to go somewhere if not across the creek and out to, I think isn't there platted industrial? Paul Krauss= No. What I think is more likely, it's more likely that that would just be an extension of a dead end street that would serve the homes that would occur in that area between Timberwood and the creek. The idea of another creek crossing there, it's theoretically possible but it begins to stretch the imagination a little bit. Councilman Workman: I guess we're talking and every discussion that I've heard has said, these people down here will never go through Timberwood. And I buy that. So why put it in? Second argument being, and I had this humdinger of an argument again today. You know the public safety issue. And we went through this issue with the Kurvers Point. About the long cul-de-sac and will public safety be able to get in. Haybe they will, maybe they won't. Hore likely than not they'll be able to get in to these things but it just seemed to me that too many coincidences have to happen all at the same time for there to be a situation where public safety's going to have a serious problem. And maybe I'm taking that too lightly. But all in the same hour, somebody has to have a life threatening problem, a tornado or something has to be coming through and a big tree has to fall over in the right direction to block the road. And I never really got much clarification on that at the Kurvers Point deal that that was really something that we should be worried about. I lean over to Richard and he tells me, we'll get through. Don't worry about it. Will they have'to and that's where, as a City Council member, I've kind of had to think, well do l have to worry about just about everything and lay awake at night thinking about those things? And I've opted for not. Councilwoman Dimler: Not thinking about it? Councilman Workman: If we get Hennepin County Commissioner pay, then I'll. But that isn't to mock or mimmick staff's understanding of what they think we need to do. I understand that. And they're very real concerns. I just don't personally tend to hinge things on those as heavily as they do. Ttmberwood is in and almost done. People live there. These people don't live here. That City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 doesn't mean I don't feel for the developer but I think ue can do some modifications to make it work so that this group of homes is onto itself and not affecting the neighborhood. Mayor Chmiel: What modifications are you suggesting that ue could make to that? Hou can ue do that? Councilman Workman: Well, take Stone Creek Court and run it out and then bend the west end over along the property line or wherever. I don't lay out plats but. Mayor Chmiel: You're making some suggestions but I'd like to know what those suggestions are. Councilman Workman: Well like I said, bring this piece. Now that's going to leave a big lump and maybe they can work here, maybe they can't. But bring this and bend it straight out along there or drop it through and ultimately connect up to there. Rather than make it a cul-de-sac. And that takes care of or serves the other half of that. Kate Aanenson: There's a wetland right there. Paul Krauss: There's a real pristine kind of a wooded wetland rlght over here that we've assigned in the conservation area. You really wouldn't want to put a road through that. Councilman Workman: But we've got yards and lots in there. If you're telllng me it's impossible, I don't beIieve it. But we have a pristine pond and some prlstine trees. We've also got a neighborhood that's golng to be changed. That's where I've been directing some of my concerns. I can worry about the pond, whlch I ui11. Or I can worry about the long term affect lt's going to have on the neighbors to the north and that's what I've done. Mayor Chmiel: Tom are you saying, going and extending to the east from that cul-de-sac with that road? Are you really saying taking Stone Creek and going to the west and comlng out on CR 187 Councilman Workman: As a second entrance. Mayor Chmiel: There would be two out on County Road 18. Hans Hagen: Maybe I can shed some light on this. I don't disagree with the residents... I heard you and I went back... What we tried to do after we came up with the PUD and we felt that that wouldn't be a viable alternative for the city, we laid out the roads to do two thlngs. To stay away from the wetlands and to preserve the forest as much as we could. That's really our mandate because the city really mandates that so you have to start from there. And the area that you've been speaking about which would be extending Stone Creek, as lt's named here, and rather than hooklng the cul-de-sac down here, brlnging the road across adjacent to Timberwood ts a difficulty because of two things. You've got the wetland issue here and you've also got a very steep bank here and you've probably got a 30 foot grade elevation from here to here. So golng from this locatlon down to here, you've got probably 20 to 30 feet and when you do that, City Council Meeting - april 29, 1992 obviously you end up taking all the trees out. That's why this road hooks down around here to take care of the grade and be able to put the house pads in and leave some trees between each house. Rnd while the plat, as it's drawn here shows a preserve area in here, it's our intent and we think we would be able to maintain trees on the lot lines. Now not all of them will live but every attempt will be made to do that. and that only works if you follow the contours carefully. So the road layout seems to just meander around but it has, the reason it meanders around is to save the trees. Now I think maybe there's another way to accomplish what Timberwood is after. I totally agree that you don't want traffic needlessly running through your neighborhood. Here's Timberwood located here. The road system you see coming through Stone Creek was the original layout that we had and that is no longer valid. That was a PUO. But generally speaking, this major road's coming through here and wandering through in about the same way. Now you'll notice that Timberwood Orive goes up and circles around and goes north and actually even down south a little bit. So that is a circuritous route. It would be much better if somebody was coming, leaving Stone Creek. It could go back and glance at this route rather than going north and then east and then down south and going out onto TH S. Remembering that there's a speed limit within your neighborhood. There's a higher speed limit perhaps on Galpin. Well, I understand...but in any event, we've got a different issue with regard to neighborhood speed traffic than you do on Galpin. So if people drove the speed limit, you would be wiser if you were in a hurry to get someplace, to take this route which is the most direct going north on Galpin. Now to make it a little bit more complicated to get out of Stone Creek. Rather than bringing Timberwood as shown in the original drawing. We're bringing Timberwood up to here. This is the line, our property line.., and as has been suggested to the Council at the last meeting is to bring Timberwood down and have a stop sign here so that it makes it a little bit more difficult to go through Timberwood. This would go out to Galpin. This suggesting goes to TH 5 but I understand that may be a difficult issue because... I assume me can stop it right here at this intersection. What-we'd like to do is stop traffic to go this way so that we're making it difficult to go through your neighborhood. Resident: That stop sign wouldn't do it. Paul Krauss: No, actually you'd mant the traffic to feel a whole lot more comfortable zipping out on Stone Creek rather than turning onto Timberwood. Hans Hagen: You could take a right here and go north. Mayor Chmiel: If me could Just hold it so me can hear what he's saying. Thank you. Hans Hagen: You could add stop signs if the neighborhood decided to at this location so you'd have a stop on the may through Timbermood which would slow traffic domn. That might accomplish keeping the traffic speed down on Timbermood for the neighbors but it mould certainly, if you've got a stop sign here and you've got a thru street going out to TH S, the logical traffic flow would be that may. Now, I think the other issue mith regard to the thru traffic for buses and for also your emergency. Well not as much emergency vehicles but for buses and trash and that sort of thing. If you take a bus and go in here, pick up everybody and then return and go out, you're doubling the number of City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 trips you have with the bus and that's the same thing that's true with any vehicIes going on through so it wouId seem to me that iogic wouId dictate that you do permit schooI buses to go ail the way through and you just reduce the number of bus trips by 50~ and the same thing is true with other delivery vehlcles that would be golng through the neighborhood. So in all my years of, 25 years now of platting property and so forth, this is something that always happens when there's an exlstlng neighborhood and you brlng another neighborhood on and leaving this road was extended to the property so that it could connect. That does make good sense and yes, it takes a bunch of moons to 11ne up to have that crisis where somebody can't get there but when that crlsis does occur, then you wlsh you would have gone the other way. But I do feel that by changing, by putting the stop sign up at this Intersection and by T-ing this intersection, that you're golng to get probably the best alternative... Mayor Chmiel: Paul, did you have anything that you wanted to say? Paul Krauss: Actually there is one thing we could add. Kate, why don't you give the distances on that. We had some information that we didn't get a chance to glve you last night in terms of one of the prlme reasons we thlnk that most of the traffic will naturally, by common sense, want to go out thru Stone Creek. Kate Aanenson: What we just looked at, if this was going through Timberwood, which is 3/4 of a mile from this point out. And the longest from the edge of this...other point out...Stone Creek Drlve and that wlll be half a mlle and thls line...2/3 of a mile. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Why don't you just leave that one up there. Richard. Councilman Wing: Well I see two issues here, and I've tried to separate them out. Number one ls Mr. Hagen's development whlch I have no problem wlth and I'm ready to get on wlth it. The other is Timberwood and I feel that Timberwood people came in and they bought large lots intentionally. Isolated property intentionally and I think that Timberwood deserves to be protected. They built thelr neighborhood. It's klnd of what we've called a little lsland and we've argued about thls and these two neighborhoods are very, very different. So in my own thinking, I'm taklng Tlmberwood out of thls lssue. I thlnk they deserve to be protected and kept away from this. So for my discussions I'm simply taklng them out of there and not worrying about them. Now on Stone Creek, I think that if a piece of land is going to be platted, it has to stand on it's own and it has to be responsible for lt's own egress and entryways. I don't think it's my responsibility to try and plat this project and I don't want to get caught up in lt. If that piece of property with 141 homes can't get cars in and out, it doesn't have proper egress and ingress to the property, then I have to suspect that maybe there's too many homes on that 81 acres and we have to start relooking at the density that we've got there. I'm not suggesting that and I'm not unhappy wlth the denslty but agaln to repeat myself on my opening statement. I think Stone Creek has to stand on it's own. The last comment I would make is the public safety issue and I thlnk that in this particular development as I'm seeing it, if there's only one way in and that one way branches off 1nfo a maze of cul-de-sacs, that lsa publlc safety hazard. We don't have access to these properties and all it would take is one tree falling down, as Tom mentioned but there aren't any trees anyway so that's sort of moot. It will be 20 years before a tree's going to be big enough to fall over and City Council Meeting - April 29, 19~2 bother us. But any calamity that should happen that would block off that initial entryway and we don't have any way to get to the rest of that community whatsoever so this development with this many homes, I'm going to suspect the fire chief, speaking as one of the fire chief's or the fire marshall's going to say nix. It is unacceptable to have only one entryway into this. It's going to have to have two. But when I start again, Stone Creek has to stand on it's own. Be responsible for it's own development and not rely on the Timberwood area to give them that second access. So Timberwood's not in my discussion for the future here. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Ursula. Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. Since our last meeting, which wasn't that long ago, I did drive out into Timberwood and I went to the end of the drive there and I discovered that there is a huge amount of trees that would have to be cleared to put the road through and there's also a creek there. Is that correct? Paul Krauss: There's a floaage that would have to go, be routed under the road, yes. Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. I didn't know that before and I guess that does kind of change my outlook on that particular opening. I also, you know think that we need two entrances here for safety but as I thought about it, I began to think why do we have to make Timberwood less safe in order to provide safety for a new development? So I would kind of tend to go along with what Richard just said. This Stone Creek has to stand on it's own without depending on Timberwood to provide it with another access. And I think Timberwood is safe today and it will be as safe tomorrow without that street going through there. But it's Stone Creek that we need to be concerned about the safety. Then I have an unrelated question as well and that has to do with the model homes that are supposed to be ready by September without utilities in there but maybe we can talk about that later. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. I guess I had, I received a call this evening. There were some good issues that were brought up to me from that discussion. It was a resident within Timberwood. Many things that I heard, concerns about speeds within the development. I guess I charge each and every one of you to respectfully watch your own speeds so you can bring that back down to where it should be. 30 mph is basically what that road is designed for. And if it be necessary, we can provide the kinds of protections that maybe you're looking for but I don't like to see our officers write tickets on our own residents, or anyone else. I don't think this is a police state. And if everyone has certain numbers of children within that area, I think each of you owe it to yourselves to police, as I said, yourself rather than us do it for you. I've learned over the years and this right foot of mine probably has some lead in it, just like you have in driving through your neighborhood. I find that if you've got a cruise control, set it on 30. It's amazing how well it works. And I use that driving in town. On the main street. .In the neighborhoods and mine even trolls down to 25 mph and I use it in a 25 zone. Never have to look at the speedometer because I know exactly where it is once I set it. 3ust a word of advice. One of the other things that I also heard was the fact that many of you have indicated that you were made aware that there was not going to be an outlet from that area or a connection. In discussions that I've had with a couple-people in City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 buying those properties, from what I've been told, everyone has been told that there could very well be a connection through the neighborhood. I just found that out yesterday in doing some more checking as I sald we would do and consider and think about other things. I'm sure that Mr. Hagen is not in any particular positlon of saying I have to have that access lnto Tlmberwood and I don't think he's going to take that position as I've Just heard him say that before as well. So some of the thlngs that I really see ls bls proposal in putting this residential development in there. I'd support it because of what I've seen. This plattlng has indicated ulth the sizes of lots and you have a vast different amount of sizes. From 15,000 square feet. As much as 33,000 square feet. So he's uorklng with that particular plece of property I think very well. Whether or not that access goes in there, I th£nk we've stood more behind Tlmberwood than we have in any other subdivision ulthln the clty. And even during our preliminary stages of going through our comprehensive plan and maklng the changes to accommodate you people, that's who we represent. But sometimes when I look at the necessity of public safety. We're charged with that and Z want to feel comfortable ulth the publlc health and safety of thls part£cular connection of if the connection were to go through. I'm getting a feel from Counc11, I don't see that rlght now. But even for your own concerns and some of the concerns I have for your own propert£es, that ts something that has to be looked at and I did look at it qulte strongly. And everybody feels comfortable enough right now. Hopefully you'll feel comfortable enough if you live there for the next 20 years or 30 years but in this changing world as ue have it, how many of us are going to still be here. I know I uill because I'm golng to retire here. Very shortly, in about 2 months. But how often are we all going to stay here? The job markets change. We make changes. We leave the area. Once everyone leaves, ls thls golng to be the best for the city and that's what I look at agaln. So with just a few of those analyzations that I've gone through, I'm ready to poll the Councll for a motlon regarding thls preliminary plat as well as the two other aspects of the platting. The wetland alteration and the rezonlng. If the deslre by Councll ls to eliminate the connection into Timberwood Estates, that should so be indicated. Whether or not the Tlmberuood Estates name should be on there, because I'm sure the reason that was done to have that connection into Timberwood. Possibly that should change and that's strictly up to you. But ulth that, I would request a motion in regards to this particular platting. Councilman Wing: Don, just one clarification. For me to approve the plat, part of the approval would be the requirement of two entryways. Is that correct? Or would that be part of the motion, if desired? Mayor Chmiel: Paul, do you want a clarification? Paul Krauss: Yeah, I wish Roger were here tonight. I think you're raising an issue here because we've already gone on record telling you that we don't thlnk there are two good points to come out on the county road. Thls developer does have an option to loop a street but you're considering precluding him from using that optlon. If you then put the developer in the posltlon where you're insisting that he have two accesses but it's impossible to provide lt, therefore the property can't be developed, I thlnk we have a problem. Councilman Wing: Alright, I'll go along with the one but then the Fire Marshall comes along and says that's not going to fly. City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 Paul Krauss= That's the situation we'll have. ! sewn we can reopen the book and see what we can do but we did look at this intensively. We have conferred with the County Engineer and we've pretty such eliminated those alternatives. Councilwoman Oimler: Is there anything that can be done to that second side that you said the. Paul Krauss: The sight distance? Councilwoman Oimler: Yeah, wasn't good enough. Can we do something with that Intersection there? Paul Krauss: I honestly don't know. It probably would involve some major reconfiguration of a street. Lowering of grades. Significant and you can't do that just on a localized site. You've got to go half a mile up the road so the grades match. You probably look at loss of trees. Councilwoman Oimler: Zs this a county road? Paul Krauss: Yes. Hans Hagen: The County did deny that other entrance. Kate Aanenson: That's what went to Planning Commission were the two entrances and the County sald no. So we came back with the revised. Councilman Mason: Mr. Mayor, two things. I have a little trouble with a development has to stand on it's own. We're talking, then I think all of a sudden I've heard some citizens accuse development of being patchworked. I think if all of a sudden we're saying a site has to stand on it's own, then we're creating patchwork. I also did hear a number of Timberwood people say their first choice is absolutely no road through there and I've already said if I lived there I'd feel the same way. I also did hear them say that if that can't be done, can we please have a T intersection and Timberwood end at what is currently now called Boulder Drive. I share your concerns about the public safety issue also. I think if we approve this with one in and out, we're essentially not approving anything and we're going to have to deal with it a month or two from now anyway, is my opinion. And if the County has already told us that two in and outs on CR 18 is not going to wash with them, I find us to some extent, caught between a rock and a hard place on this one. And if that's the case, then I think we need to take a little harder look at a T intersection there. Where Timberwood and what's now called Boulder Drive come together. Councilman Workman: If I can add to that. I guess it's, and I understand where you're coming from. It's not my job to plat and I don't know out of which book or which law or to what degree the County can say yes or no to an entrance there. It would appear to me that where Stone Creek would come.out, the elevation is 981. If you go to the north, the next elevation I see anywhere near there is 985. That's 4 feet. The next one I see is 968. So it drops significantly there. So they're almost near the top of the hill. I guess if not near it and so while I'm hesitant to, during a variance process to help somebody design their garage for them, I guess I think the developer's kind of getting a strong idea about what we want to do and that can either be worked out City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 or it can't. I don't know that I'm convinced that it can't be. To say that it absolutely can't. Roger Gustafson has made the decision. It's now in stone down there at the County without A1Klingelhutz and everybody else looking at it. I don't know. I guess I'm not a surveyor OF other but I'm not convinced that it can't be done. Charles Folch: Mr. Hayor. What it basically boils down to is, being that it is a county road. Carver County has of course jurisdiction over that road. Any other agency looking to tie into that County Road has to get an access permit from the County. If the County is not willing to grant that permit without taking further action, legal action or whatever, you can't acquire the permit. Basically as Paul's mentioned before, to try and cut that hill down to make the sight lines feasible to provide a secondary access, one is that economically feasible? Who would pay for it? I'm sure the County is not going to be willing to pay for that. That's something that would have to certainly be considered. It's not impossible but it would be a major task to do that. Mayor Chmiel: Charles, do you know what the sight line was and what the given problem is? Charles Folch: The exact distance? I don't have that off hand what the exact distance was. It's not too far down from the crest but that is the problem. Kate Aanenson: If I could just add to that. The other issue that the County raised uas based on the volume of traffic, this space, they have a requirement of spacing of entranceways and that also fell into too narrow of a gap there. Spacing. With the volume of traffic. Conflicting turn movements. Mayor Chmiel: If, and I'm not into designing either but if Creek Court were looked at, that's probably better than 500 foot distance from the existing verbage of Timberwood Road to Stone Creek and of course that would eliminate that cul-de-sac there. But I don't know where Hans is coming from with that part either. Hans Hagen: I think the two issues you have are, one coming over the crest of the hill here does not have good sight distance. We pull this out. So that's one problem the County had. The other problem is the County has a minimum distance between access points on Oalpin Road. On this County Road. So they've denied it based on that. So when we received that information, then we backed off and made this a cul-de-sac. Because originally we had put this through. When you get over to this point however, and you can see all these lines coming down pretty close and for the public who isn't dealing with plats everyday, that indicates there's a very sharp hill going down this so you've got a situation. Actually we are peeling off the top of the hill as part of the grading program but to pull a road back through here and I think it's probably a moot point because you can't get out here anyway with your second access so it really doesn't change anything but you can't pull a road down through here because the wetland here. You've got a very sharp hill which is in grade and in order to make that grade work you'd have to pull it down to a 7~ or less grade and in order to do that, you would really have massive grading and pulling all the trees out. So we were trying to work with the environment. We thought quite honestly when this road came down and T'd at this property, that typically that should be pulled on through from a safety point of view. It isn't our company's 10 City Council Heeting - april 29, 1992 point of view that that should be done. It's just that cities generally require that so we just followed it through. So I think from an environmental point of view, when you're talking about the trees and woods and ali of you have talked about those, and the wetlands. You've talked about those. The plat is ' sympathetic to those issues. And so if we start out with the trees and we start out with the wetlands and start out with the hills and the grades and work out plat out and then come out with a safe intersection, it really ties you in. and whether it's Hans Hagen Homes, you know. If we don't get this through, somebody else is going to come back and do the same thing. You're kind of stuck and I think the solution to your problem is not really devastating the forest or the wetlands or creating an unsafe process out here because ! think that's doing the wrong thing. You're creating lots of problems there. The better issue is to try and get the traffic not to want to go through your neighborhood. That's really what the issue is. Now one other thing and I tried to explain it on the other plat and I wasn't very good at it. But what we're proposing to do is to change this road so the road does this. and now it goes through and this, Timberwood comes down and stops here and there's a stop sign here so that's what ! was trying to explain, actually there's a little difference than I'm showing here but it's very close. Then we would change this name to Boulder Creek Orive, and I think some of the neighbors brought up the fact that what happens if somebody's looking for Timberwood Drive. They come to the first one on Galptn, take a left and they're really trying to find somebody that's on Timberwood Drive in Stone Creek. Well, we can resolve that by changing the name to Boulder Creek Orive down here so they aren't going to look for Timberaood. So Timberwould come down and stop. here. That would keep your neighborhood identified as Timberwood and not mix it up. Resident: I'm confused with your logic. If you want to restrict traffic, which ue do through Timberwood, why put a road there? Hans Hagen: That's fine with me. I have no problem. We don't have to do this and I'm not arguing for it. You know we can block that off but then the issue comes back, is it safe? Is it safe for you? Is it safe for us? I'm not going to make that decision. That isn't my job. We can take and simply make this a loop street. That isn't a problem with us but the question is, is it good for you ultimately and is it good for the people that we're selling to here and from a safety perspective, I would say this is not. Resident: People keep talking here about the distance... The other-night Paul had mentioned that first, lower portion of Timberwood was maybe a little farther away from...than it needed to be. Rs well as north... Maybe some of those lots on the north should be just pulled and the road should curve up more to the crest of the hill. There are options there...well it's going to fail. By how' much and how much can you make it work?...faiis the test. Maybe another proposal...that passes the test. Councilman Workman: If in fact, if ~e make believe for a minute that we have a road through there and the developer and staff are telling us that people aren't going to really use that. Buses and the UPS guy. Then in fact what'we have is 141 homes draining out one entrance and exit. That's in fact what we're telling the people to the north. That is not safe. If we have one access here, it's not safe. Forgetting the emergency vehicle argument for this point. That means we've got everybody, because it takes so much more to go up through Timberwood, 11 City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 and so much more time, everybody and whatever trip they're going to take, is going to come out this exit and I don't know who in their right mind would live there with that kind of traffic unless this were in fact going to be used as a purge valve out to the north. $o we either have a very, and believe me, I'm maybe giving the developer mixed signals. I think Timberwood would much rather have this than a commercial and I agree that they do do nice work but it's a difficult parcel. We're working very hard on what and how the environment on this side of the creek is like but it is going to affect the environment on the north side. I know it is and you can tell me that by making this connection nobody's going to use it. It's just there for service vehicles and emergency vehicles but then you're telling me that everybody's coming out this thing and that is going to be a very, very unsafe one place to come in and out of this neighborhood and 141 homes. Councilman Wing: When I come home at night, I'm going to make the first turn off of TH 5. I'm going to make the first left into Timberuood and roll through that open land and those wide streets right into my home in the middle of this to avoid having to come down here and wind through the whole thing. Councilman Workman: I don't deny that it's not a difficult thing to lay this all out with the contours and everything else. I'm not trying on purpose anyway to be ignorant. If all the arguments that I've heard are that people are not going to go up to the north and don't worry about it, then 141 homes are going to empty out one spot. That's where I would piggyback on Richard's comment that it needs to stand a little bit more, at least on it's gun. And have that extran one to the north and... Resident: Are we free to make comments? No? Mayor Chmiel: Not right now. Not yet. Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, in regards to those comments. I can't believe we could posslbly hear anything we haven't heard already. I would ask you to temper those. I want to go home. Thank you very much. Councilman Mason: I'm almost to the point of being amazed at ali this discussion. If the County is telling us they will not, and maybe we need to find this out 100~. But if the County's telling us we won't glve you another access there, what's the issue? Councilman Workman: Whether or not 141 homes are golng to empty out of one. Councilman Wing: We should have one exit. Councilman Mason: 5o you're saying then, if we only have one access there, we're not going to let that road in there so therefore we're not allowing development there and we have to buy more property. Councilman Workman: No. I'm saying pretend that road is there. I'm betng told that people are not golng to use that. Councilman Mason: Right. 12 City Council Meeting - april 29, 1992 Councilman Workman: That means 141 homes will have to come out this okay. But in reality I know people are going to use it. Okay so, how many? Who in the room can tell me how many of those homes? Is it half? So is that 70? Then that does. Councilman Mason: I'm not saying it's not going to impact Timberwood. I'm just saying I think we're beating a dead horse. If the County is saying one access, I don't know that we have any choice. Councilman Wing: But is it the right choice to approve that? That's pretty extreme. On the other hand, what we haven't looked at is taking some of these upper lots and T-ing those into dead ends and then letting this half come out on this one. Break the division into. In other words, take the northern lots. This whole group of northern lots and connect them into Timberwood. Dead end and then let this other half drain out onto... Resident: I did suggest that at the Planning Commission. Councilwoman Oimler: I didn't hear what Richard said. Mayor Chmiel: Sorry, we were trying to have some discussions here. I hate to say I wasn't paying attention. Hans Hagen: Your Honor, maybe I can help in one other issue. I know it's cumbersome but we are putting a right turn lane in here. The County requested a right turn lane put on Galpin right here so the people would come out, the bulk of the traffic would be going north. So people would come up here and take a right. I think the other issue is at some point there is a cut off and nobody's denying that somebody will not go through Tlmberwood. What we're trying to do is suggest making the most difficult route and I think if you drew a line here somplace and said lt's 11logical for people to back track and go north. So the question is, how many lots in Stone Creek. all [41 wouldn't prefer to go through Stone Creek, or through Tlmberwood rather. There ls some point and maybe this lot would choose to go this way. That's possible. These 4 lots here and there's some in here but it would seem to me that you could draw a line, some weave through here. These logically would have a shorter route going to the west and then to the north or south, and some of them might go through Timberwood. That's Possible. Certainly. But we aren't loading [41 people through Tlmberwood. We are only take those that mtght flnd it more convenient to do that. And the question is, you've got 37 home sites in 90 acres or there abouts. If you add another 20 homesites, it probably wouldn't affect your neighborhood a great deal. Granted, you wouldn't want one more. That's why you moved there but the issue ls some reasonable approach. Because it won't die with our project. Somebody else is going to come back in and it's a question of if thls ls the best. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. potentially we could, Paul? On Stone Creek Court, whlch the cul-de-sac faces CR 18. What would happen if that road were to go through Lot 10 and veer to the north more? Paul Krauss: We in fact were playing with that a little bit. I'm not sure if it works from a design standpoint. 13 City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 Mayor Chmiel: I'm not either. Paul Krauss: What you basically have to do is come out something like that to get to the top of the hill. You have to come in perpendicular to the road which means you'll probably have to go onto somebody else's property to put a road in. Councilman Workman: Paul? When I see at the tip of Stone Creek 981 and where you're taking it, it's 9G8. Paul Krauss: I'm sorry Tom, I can't read it from this. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, it's 968 to 985. Is that what you're saying? Councilman Workman: 9811 see down at the tip. And it sounds like, yeah. I mean down here but then it does look 11kw through Lot 10 but you're going up through what would probably be an outlot or something and that seems to drop about. Paul Krauss: Again there's two issues. There's the hilltop which is someplace around here but what you're doing is you're having an acceleration lane to get back onto, to allow traffic to accelerate up to speed. There's golng to be a by-pass lane on that side so people can turn into this thing. If you're going to do a slmilar treatment at these intersections, they start to overlap. Councilman Workman: We can't put it on the downslope. Can we? Councilwoman Dimler: No. Mayor Chmiel: No. Councilman Workman: I mean that"s not. Then the traffic coming from the south will surprise them. Paul Krauss: Right. Resident: ...if they're going to go to the north, if I took my car and I started heading downhill right away, I could get going up to speed... Councilman Workman: Want me to make a motion? Mayor Chmiel: Go ahead. Councilman Workman: I'll make it and you guys tell me if it flles. Are we considering three things? The wetland alteration, the rezoning? Councilwoman Dimler: Yes. Councilman Workman: I move to approve the Wetland Alteration Permit, Rezoning of property from A2 to RSF. Mayor Chmiel: Can I make a clarification with that Tom? Items 1 thru 5 and your other items on rezoning? 14 City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 Councilman Workman: Okay. And the Preliminary Plat to subdivision 81 acres into 141 single family lots, Hans Hagen Homes with the folio#lng additions. Not have what is Tlmberwood Drive, not have it stub and not have It go through through Timberwood. Have the applicant work with staff to design a second ingress/egress to the north on Galpin. Period. Councilwoman Oimler: Will they still be able to get 141 lots then or do you want to maybe leave that number out? Mayor Chmiel: Maybe with the redesigning, I don't think you can get another lot in that particular. Removal of that portion. Councilman Workman: I'll say maximum of 141. Councilwoman Dimler: It could be less. Mayor Chmiel: Approximately. Councilman Wing: Paul, what I'm comtng up with, thts site may not be suitable for 141 homes. It's sort of what's coming out here. Paul Krauss: Councilman Wlng, if you're asking me to respond to that, there's a lot of ways of approaching that. Councilman Wlng: No I'm not. 3ust a comment. Paul Krauss: I guess I wanted some clarification on your stipulation. We'd be happy to slt down wlth Roger Gustafson and our staff and the developer and try to figure out how to get a second curb cut in there. But you've got to realize we may not succeed. I mean looking at this and if we can do lt, flne. We're in a position to do that but tf we're not in a position to deliver on a second curb cut, ls there still a condition that they provide two curb cuts? Councilman Wing: I think that's the motion. Resident: You say the second access but not define where it ls. Could it be to the east. Could it be to... Councilman Wlng: If I'm reading Tom's motion, he's just requiring thls plat to get two ways in and out. That's a11. Mayor Chmiel: That's what the motlon basically was. And I guess If that fatls, we can bring it back and review it. Paul Krauss: Agaln, I need to deflne this. Does the second curb cut.have to be on one of the County Roads on the east side? I mean there is a long term goal potential, if we can get it through at some point in the future, to have another access into there which means you may live with a situation with 141 homes with one access for the next 15 years. Or one year. I don~t know. Councilman Workman: And we'll probably have Stone Creek saying no way. Paul Krauss: Well you can bet that would happen. 15 City Council Meeting .- April Councilman Mason: That's the whole point there. Councilman Wing: Then if that's the case and if we're going to use that type of time frame, I'm going to sollcit the fire department stepping in. I think that's too many homes, too isolated. Too much, one call for 10,000 population per day and thls is you know, gettlng up to the polnt where they're golng to be calling for help down there. Paul Krauss: Councilman Wing, again I'm not your City Attorney. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, and I don't know if you can do that either. Paul Krauss: You've got an optlon here for another curb cut. Now granted you don't want to use it but you're denying him the use of a right-of-way that terminates on hls property. You've made the situation. If he can't resolve it, it puts you in the position of having to figure out something because this development meets city standards. Councilman Workman: Or somebody needs to come up with a different and better motlon. Mayor Chmiel: Just to back off just a tad. Chan Estates roughly has 120 homes with one access. Councilman Workman: Well now they can get out through Brookh111 but they didn't. Councilwoman Dimler: They've lived that way for 15 years. For 15 years or more they didn't. Councilman Workman: Of course people were dylng by the dozen. Councilman Wing: Paul brought up some valid points Mr. Mayor. First of all I'll second that motlon just to stop it. Councilman Workman: Thank you. I don't want to, I want to be able to work with it. I don't want to lock it up so that, yep. That's it. Can't have that curb cut but we need to maybe have the County do a 11ttle more work on it and I don't, I'm not taking for granted all the work that Hans Hagen Homes have done and staff have done. So we get another crack at this right? Paul Krauss: You get final plat. Councilman Workman: So, my preference would be that we get it all worked out, resolved by the next time. But if we're all saylng that it can't be done and I'm personally sticking pretty close to what I see is trying not to bridge the two, then we do have problems. You know, I don't know how to resolve that. Mayor Chmiel: Right. The only other way you could resolve it is to then relook at the Tlmberwood access. Councilman Wlng: What about Paul's comment that if they are unable to come up with a second curb cut, the option? Are we giving an option to? City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 Paul Krauss: ! don't want to beat a dead horse any more than ! have to but if Timberwood is not an option, and it seems like it ts not, i'd ask you to word the conditions to the effect that staff work with the developer to attempt to obtain a second curb cut onto the county road but failing that, this layout as proposed without the Timberwood connection will have to be acceptable. Councilman Wing: One other couent before we move on Mr. Mayor. If these first, if you only had one entryway and immediately upon entry if the road T'd, went north/south and looped around, it would effectively give us two ways to get to the back side of the neighborhood without a large entryway going through the middle. Paul Krauss: Except that you'd wind up double fronting lots. Councilman Wing: Yeah, I don't know how this lays out. I just see this loop as being close to the highway. paul Krauss: That can be done. Mayor Chmiel: We have a motlon on the floor with a second. And as Paul indicated, is there any des[re to change any of that motion as a friendly amendment? Councilman Workman: I thought I left in there that I wanted staff to work further with the developer and the County to get this second access. That's what's needed. Councilman Mason: And failing that? Councilman Workman: Failing that, I guess we would just have to dlscuss that at final plat. I mean we're going to have to anyway. Mayor Chmlel: But we're leaving the developer sort of hanging where he doesn't know which way he's going to go either. But maybe through some design or redeslgn or whatever, I don't know. Councilman Workman: But doesn't the, and I can ask the developer. Oon't you think, this looks 11ke an awful lot of homes. Don't you think, and I don't know what's common but isn't this an awfully stressed access anyway? Mayor Chmlel: Tom, just for clarification. You have to remember what our ordinance reads. 15,000 square foot lots and that's what he is really complying with. And when you say whether there's too many homes, I don't thtnk that's the quest[on. Councilman Workman:. No, only in relationship to the access. That's fine. I'm just saying in regards to that one access which they're relying on very heavily. Councilman Wing: We have information that it appears to be inaccessible development the way it's drawn. That concerns me. Hans Hagen: If I could ask a question...because there's no way I can proceed with the property coming up with a final plat and not having a resolution to 17 City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 this. Can I come in for one portion of it and say fine, we'll approve that but you have to resolve the...so I think the preliminary is the point to resolve major issues. That's where roads will go and... This is a major issue and that's a preliminary plat issue... Councilman Workman: Then we'd have to deny it. Councilman Mason: Could I take a shot at it? If staff, developer and County are unable to come to agreement on a second egress, we'll approve the plat with one entrance/egress? If they can't come up with two. I mean it's either that or approve the Timberwood shot so. Mayor Chmiel: okay. As that to the amendment, as a friendly amendment. Would the first and second accept that? Councilman Workman: So you're saying what Paul had said? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. Richard? Okay. With that I'll call the question then. Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve Wetland Alteration Permit ~92-3 with the following conditions: 1. All wetland areas will be protected during construction by Type III erosion control. The erosion control shall be maintained in good condition until the disturbed areas are stabilized. 2. The proposed wetland setbacks and buffer strip shown in the compliance table for each lot will be recorded as part of the Development Contract. The buffer strip may not be less than 10 feet wide. The buffer strip will be preserved by an easement. 3. Alteration to the wetlands must occur when it results in the least impact to the wetland and not during breeding season. 4. The applicant shall receive permits from the DNR and Corps of Engineers. 5. The applicant shall meet all conditions of the Subdivision ~92-1 and Rezoning All voted in favor and the motion carried. Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve Rezoning ~92-2 of property from A2 to RSF with the following conditions: 1. The applicant shall enter into a Development Contract containing all of the conditions of approval for this project and shall submit all required financial guarantees. The Development Contract shall be recorded against the property. 2. Compliance with setback standards established in the compliance table. 18 City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 3. The applicant shall meet all conditions of the Subdivision ~92-1 and Wetland Alteration Permit ~2-3. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Councilman #orkman moved, Councilman Ulng seconded to approve Subdivision ~92-1 as shown on the plane dated ~Loril 21, 1992 with the condition that staff work with the developer to attempt to obtain a second curb cut onto the county road. Failing that, this layout as proposed without the Ttmberwood connection will be acceptable, and subject to the following cond~ttone: 1. A tree conservation and ~etland buffer easement shall be placed on the plat. All building sites in the tree conservation or wetland buffer shall be shown on the building permit. 2. The development shall follow the standards in Subdivision Regulations Section 18-61 regarding Landscaping and Tree Preservation. 3. Parkland shall be dedicated, 8 acres of property, as recommended by the Park Commission, including a 20 foot easement south of the Timberemod subdivision betaeen Timberwood Drive and the park. 4. A front yard variance shall be granted to all homes that fall into the tree conservation area but in no case shall the front setback be less than 20 feet. 5. The applicant shall convey to the City a temporary street easement for the temporary cul-de-sac at the end of Boulder Road. In addition, a sign shall be installed on the barricades stating that the street (Boulder Road) will be extended in the future. The appropriate drainage and utility easements should be conveyed with the final plat over all utilities located outside of.the public right-of-ways, along with standard easements over each lot. Timberwood Drive shall be constructed 36 feet wide gutter to gutter. 8. The applicant shall receive and comply with all pertinent agency permits, i.e. Watershed Districts, Health Oepartment, MPCA. 9. Storm sewer calculations for a 10 year storm event along with p~>nd storage calculations for storage of a 100 year storm event, 24 hour intensity, should be submitted to the City Engineer for review and approval. [0. A deceleration and acceleration lane on northbound County Road 19 shall be provided along with a bypass turn lane on southbound County Road 19 to improve turning movements into the development. ll. Watermain pipe sizing shall be increased to 8 inches in diameter on Forest Road and that part of Timberwood Orive lying north of Forest Trail. 12. All storm retention ponds shall be constructed to NURP standards as well as provide storage for a 100 year storm event. 19 City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 13. A permit from the railroad (Twin City Western) will be required for any grading or construction activity within the railroad right-of-way. 14. Fire hydrants shall be spaced approximately 300 feet apart throughout the subdivision in accordance with the Fire Marshal's recommendations. 15. The proposed earth berms along County Road 19 shall be reduced or relocated easterly to provide adequate room for future trail considerations. All areas disturbed during site grading shall be immediately restored with seed and disc-mulched or wood-fiber blanket within two weeks of site gradlng or before November 15, 1992 except in areas where utilities and streets wtll be constructed yet that year. All areas disturbed with a slope of 3:1 or greater must be restored with sod or wood-fiber blanket. 17. The developer shall provide adequate access easements for maintenance purposes to the proposed retention ponds. 18. The developer shall construct the utility and street improvements in accordance wlth the 1992 editlo~l of the City's standard specifications and detail plates and shall prepare final plans and specifications and submit for Clty approval. 19. The developer shall acquire the required utility construction permits from the PCA and Minnesota Oepartment of Health and street access permtts from Carver County Publlc Works. 20. The final plat should be contingent upon the City authorizing a public improvement project for extension of trunk sanltary sewer and water facilities to the site. 21. As a condition of final plat approval, the applicant shall enter into a development contract and provide the financial security to guarantee construction of the improvements and payment of any pending assessment. 22. The applicant shall be given credit for any trunk utility improvements they may lnsta11 as a part of thelr overall slte improvements. The credit will be applied towards the Upper Bluff Creek sanitary sewer and watermain trunk improvements. The credlt amount will be determined as the difference between a standard lateral pipe size (8 inch diameter) and the proposed trunk improvements whlch are 12 1riches in diameter. 23. The applicant/builder shall provide at the time of building permit application a tree removal and gradlng permit for all wooded lots, specifically Lots 1 thru ?, Block 1, Lots I thru 24, Block 4, Lots 1 thru 21, Block 5 and Lots i thru 12 and 15 thru 24, Block 4. 24. The applicant shall work with staff to explore the possibility of conveying backyard dralnage from Block 5 into the development storm sewer system. 25. The outlot along County Road 19, Galpin Blvd. needs to replatted with another lot. 2O City Council Heeting - April 29, 1992 26. The applicant shall meet the conditions of the Rezoning ~92-2 and the Wetland Alteration Permit ~92-3. ~11 voted in favor and the motion carried. Councilman Mason: If I could just make a quick comment. I think people who know me know I tend to not be very pro-development but I would like to thank Hr. Hagen for his consideration...in trying to come up with plans that were... REUSE# PROPOSAL FOR HI6HWAY 5 CORRIO(~ STUOY APE CO~T ON HI6t~Y 5 OVERLRY OISTRICT. Paul Krauss: We've been talking about a Highway 5 corridor study since about a year ago and of course I think we made a lot of progress in a lot of areas. Some areas we haven't. ! think tonight's meeting was an interesting one and showed the kinds of things that a highway corridor study could have done. I mean we could have know, we should have ideally have gone through this process before Target or anybody else thought about going there and we would have known what the City's position is and we could have dealt with it effectively. Plus it would been an ordinance and you would have had another tool in the arsenal to make these visions happen. We need those tools. We need something to convert the things that you hear from 8ill and Barry and from us into the realty. The last time we met on this you asked me to go back and try to come up with a proposal to put together that corridor study. Put together those elements and those elements include a lot of things. They include working with HnOot to refine the design of the highway. They £nclude designing those arterial, or sorry. The parallel collector streets in an environmentally sensitive and effective manner. It includes working with HnOot and the Hetro Council to hopefully procure funding under that Federal Ice Tea Bill. It includes revising the land use plan as necessary to fit this new vision and it includes getting ordinances and a plan amendment into our Comp Plan that again we can put'on the table and say, developer. This is the way we want you to do things here. It's part of our ordinances and still give plenty of flexibility. I think tonight you saw how much flexibility you can really have but still get a good idea of what you'd like to achieve. So we started from the concept that those were the goals we wanted to achieve. We also started from the concept that there is I think a fair amount of comfort here with Bill and his staff and a desire to keep them involved. At the same time there's I think a good comfort level with working with Barton-Aschmann. Barton-Aschmann has a good relationship with HnOot and the Highway 5 design folks. They've also had a good relationship I think with the City, with the HRA and designing the streetscape improvements. The complimentary work in accordance with TH S. So building upon that, we really needed to add a final element and that was a good planning function. Somebody who can convert all these things into the reality. And what we came up with is the firm of Camiros who has a working relationship with Barton-Aschmann. They've been in the Twin Cities area for a couple years. Their principle office is in Chicago. I do happen to know their loca! person. They are working on a number of design projects including Hinneapolis' design ordinance. They've got a number of other projects throughout the State and in the area. They're working in Sioux City as well and Galena, Illinois and they've done some interesting work there. I think that's a fairly good fit. What we had them lay out for you was a flow chart of how this study might work and who would be 21 City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 interacting with whom. I don't have an overhead for it but it's the one in your packet and there's also a schedule and the schedule attempts to lay out. We're talking about almost a dual track approach going at the same time. Time is really of the essence. Highway 5 is being designed as we speak. The time to get the gears rolling and the Mayor and I were chattlng this morning, to get the Metro Council on board to support this Ice Tea Funding. To get the MnOot folks uorklng on lt, that's got to proceed very qulckly. At the same tlme we don't want to let too much time pass until we get the completed documents for the corridor ltself. So we've set thls up as a dual track approach. I know cost ls one of your concerns and to be up front, I don't have a great answer for you yet. I thlnk that I know what, I mean I've laid out what I thlnk should be in this study based upon what you've told me. Based upon my experience and what I think we need. What we've done here ls set up a process uhereln ue would go through the organizational steps of the study. Have a corridor issues paper laid out and a lot of this stuff is already, I mean we're not golng to relnvent the wheel. A lot of this stuff already exists and the stuff that Bill and Barry have done. Some of it needs to be repackaged. Get together. Set up a, I forget what we call it but an Advisory Committee in some sort of structure. We've suggested a structure for the Council to be able to appolnt this Advlsory Committee. That includes Planning Commission, HRA representation, Council representation. Plus there's a potential for addlng resldent participation in this as well. I think the SurFace Water Hanagement Task Force is working out really pretty s11ck and that lsa very slmllar klnd of a make-up. So get that group together and then hold the public hearlng that ue really never had. It's been a concern of mlne for a long tlme that we've come a long way but we haven't brought the public with us yet. I think we need to invite them tn. Have BiZ1 glve his dog and pony show. Say that the slates open here but here's the issues. How we see them. What do you see and then come back and at that point finallze what needs to be done in thls study and get a formal contract. So the discussions Don and I thought that we would proceed sort of on an hourly basis to get to that polnt. Then we have the information we need to actually lay it out. Get the hard numbers and go. I guess I'd be a little bit leery suggesting this klnd of approach if we weren't so famlllar wlth most of the actors that are involved in this. We're not proposing we spend a whole lot of time going out and soliciting blds. I think for those who mere lnvolved In the storm water process, that took about 6 months I think from start to fin£sh and we really don't have that klnd of tlme. 5o what we've proposed for you tonight ls to take a look at this and if you're comfortable with this, hopefully give us the go ahead to get the ball rolling and we could do that pretty expeditiously. The second thing that I prepared for you is the, do you want me to stop there? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. I never like to give a blank, open check to do anything. To really feel comfortable with it, we'd have to get some kind of an estimate as to what thls is golng to be. And before we say, run. Don Ashworth: How about the first portion of the work will not exceed $2,500.00 before it goes back to City Council? Paui Krauss: If that's the case, I mean I'm sure we can probably work with these folks under that scenarlo and let them know. So if lt's not, I mean that might be cutting it a little tight but if that's the number we have to work wlth, we'll work with that. 22 City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 Councilman Workman: Is that coming out of HRA funds? Don Ashworth~ For the most part, yes. [ need to make sure the HRA knows that. Councilman Wing: You know I respect the Mayor's position on the dollars. However, this has run so long, been delayed so long. If for but...so long and with the conservation nature of the Hayor and the City Hanager and you Paul, I don't think we're going to spend any more money than we have to. Have to. And I'm willing to give you an open check to get this going because you'll only spend what you have to and it's not going to be exceed $30,000.00. I mean it's going to cost some money and it ~ould have cost maybe $40,000.00 to $60,000.00 with all these in house things. That's been reduced down to some unknown. It's got to get done. It doesn't matter if it co, ts $2,000.00 now or $2,500.00 later. Mayor Chmiei: We've had a lot of freebee stuff going into it right nov. Paul Krauss: That's true. Morrish is, i'm kind of surprised by it but Bill is putting a whole lot of time basically thus far for free. ! mean beyond his original contract. Councilman Workman: If it's over $15,000.00, the contract, doesn't it have to go to a bid process? If we're talking about $30,000.00. Don Ashworth: This lsa fees for service. Thls is the same way as choosing a City Attorney. Councilwoman Dimler: I'm not comfortable with the open check. Councilman Workman: I would like to get a handle on that. Mayor Chmiel: I think we've got that, as Don said...the need for those dollars are there, then we have to get back to it and address it. Councilman Mason: I think it was made abundantly clear tonight that we need to grab this and run with it as opposed to be chasing behind what's going on. Paul Krauss: The second aspect of it was, I felt, I've been feeling since we got involved with this that everybody. You know people are getting on board. People are excited by this and then they look at me and say, well go do it and I'm saying, what am I supposed to do it with? Looking to get a foot in the door, [ came up with the idea of an overlay district that would put people on notice that while we haven't finished, we do have this visions of the corridor newsletter that Bil! put out. We do have some documentation coming together and we already have established a preliminary set of goals. And to be able to overlay property with that and put people on notice that that's the kind of thing we're starting to look at. And then when we do actually have a plan, you just adopt it by reference in this overlay district and you're have done with it. Now, I laid this out for Roger and Roger, being a cautious City Attorney first told me that he didn't think we could get away with it. And then we talked about tt and massaged it around a little bit and then he said you probably could. I'm a little leery about the cart before the horse. If we're actually going ahead, and it sounds like we are, with the study. Naybe this is 23 City Council Heeting - April 29, 1992 something we can lay on the table at the issues meetlng because at that point the educational process has begun and people will know where we're going. At that polnt it may be a little more effective to do the overlay. Mayor Chmiel: Well, and I think we've had some coverage through the news media on thls so a lot of the people withln the' community are made aware of this already. That we've been doing something. We are looking at things. And quite frankly every time Z pull out that brochure that was put together for us, people are really impressed to see where we are and where we're going. Paul Krauss: So I wanted to lay that on the table for you. I guess I dldn't want to suggest that we should just jump into it right now and bl£ndly do it. If we were to go ahead wtth an overlay district, it has to be coupled wlth an educational process. The educational process starts with thts issues meeting and that's probably the place to brlng it ln. Councilwoman 0imler: I want the public input as soon as possible. Paul Krauss: Right. That's the way we've structured this Councilwoman Oimler. The first thing we're going to do is have a kick off meeting and nottfy, I mean I guess on a preliminary basls we'll try and deflne what the corrldor ls so we can start notifying owners of property. Then notify probably developers and then we have interested partles. Jerome Carlson's wife and I can't recall. Councilman Workman: Linda. Paul Krauss: Llnda has several tlmes asked to be on the corridor study group and I'm sure there's other people. Probably somebody from Timberuood. Other people who would 11kc to be lnvolved as well. Mayor Chmiel: Z think what we have ~o get is we talked about it and you've listed it here as well. Four members representing corridor area residents at large and then two members of the business community. Then you're going to have two members of the Clty Counc11, one member HRA, two members of Planning Commission. That's fine. Paul Krauss: Okay. Then if we're golng ahead wlth thls and we're fast tracking it, we probably ought to work on getting this committee assembled as soon as possible. Would you 11kc us to put a notlce in the paper since we have the still current reporter and editor here? Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Indicating what we need. We're going to need ~ people from the general public. What I'd like to get 2 members of the business community but I'd also 11kc to work that through the Chamber of Commerce. See if they can. Paul Krauss: Would that be through Joe Scott or who's the chair person? Mayor Chmiel: No, Kevin McShane. Paul Krauss: Oh Kevin. I'll glve hlm a call. Councilwoman Oimler: And should there be someone from Public Safety? 24 City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 Paul Krauss: That's a good point. Mayor Chmiel: There's no one from Publlc Safety and I think pretty much like those, in fact I was golng to suggest that. Like I suggested having this meeting this evening. It would probably be good to have that because if some of those lssues dld come up. Councilwoman Oimler: Park and Eec? Todd Hoffman: Recreational issues. Tratls. Paul Krauss: Actually, we did consider Park and Rec. If I left Park and Rec out, I shouldn't have because clearly there's a lot of recreational issues. Councilwoman Dialer: Yeah, put both of those on. Mayor Chmiel: I don't like to get it too big but I think if you were to get probably the Chair and Vice-cha£r or anyone who'd wish to serve off those particular commissions. Tf they don't have time, have someone else. Councilman Wing: The only other th[ng I'd maybe ask Mr. Mayor £s that as far as Council involvement. The number. Because there may be. Mayor Chmiel: Well ue may all be in there. Councilman Wing: Because I clearly would want to be part of that. Mayor Chmiel: I'm going to sit in on one of those things, I know. Councilwoman Dimler: Well two of them are HRA. Mayor Chmiel: If we're only going to have one member of the HRA, we should really have 2 there. Paul Krauss: Whichever you prefer. I mean frankly, you can get a group that's too big but more often that not, keeping the ball golng, keeping continuity, especially over the summertime. Mayor Chmiel: We may have 5 Council members. Councilman Workman: You know how those guys'and Mike and I were talking about let staff Just, they get dog eared from al1 the committees. You know I'm on the slgn committee and we're kind of hacktng away and yelling at each other there and I'm on the schools fac£1~t£es committee and Paul's at that. And there's a lot of stuff going on. If I dldn't say yes to a~ther thing I'd be happy but I can show up. Councilwoman Dimler: That's how ! feel too. Councilman Workman: But I do want to have the packet. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. So you're going to get on a fast track. Get an ad in the paper and request 4 of those members of the communtty and then when are you 25 City Council Meeting - April contemplating in having your first meeting? Do you have a schedule? Paul Krauss: I really don't. What we need to do is go back to Barry and Bill. Mayor Chmiel: How quick do you want those people to respond? Paul Krauss: Oh, I'd like them to respond in the next 2 ueeks or. I'd like to have them at the next Council meeting. Mayor Chmiel: Well that's May 18th so that's a long way from then. Paul Krauss: Well that should work fine. Because I think that we can give the consultants the go ahead on getting this issue stuff together before the committee gathers. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, anything more? If not, I'd entertain a motion to cover the TH 5 corridor study proposal and discussion for potential TH 5 overlay district. Councilman Mason: So moved. Councilman Workman: Second. Councilman Wing: Is that strong enough? That's alright Mr. Mayor. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that's strong enough. Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Workman seconded to authorize staff to advertise for citizens at large and form the High#ay 5 Corridor Study Committee and direct staff to begin work on the overlay district. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONSIDER CANCELLATION OF THE MAY 4, 19~2 REGULAR CITY COUNCIL MEETING.. Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to cancel the May 4, 1992 regular City Council meeting. AIl voted in favor and the motion carried. Mayor Chmiel: I'd also like to just get an amendment. I would like to get an amendment to the agenda for one 1rem that Don has here today that we have to move on it. Councilman Nason moved, Councilman Workman seconded to amend the agenda to include an item by Don Ashworth under Administrative Presentations. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Don Ashworth: So that Lundgren Bros. can file their plat, there was a goof up in 198g. The Councll mistakenly vacated the entlre plat instead of vacating the streets.. This Resolution makes that correction. I verified that it was just mis recording. Recommend approval of the resolution. Resoluticn ~-58: Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Oimler seconded to approve a resolution correctlng the vacation of streets for Lundgren Brothers, All voted in favor and the motion carried, 26 City Council Meeting - April 29, 1992 Councilman Wing: There is in the administrative section a very, very good letter from Paul Krauss dated April 20, 1992 pertaining to lot size. I'm not bringing up lot size but while I am bringing up the PUD hassle we had on this last discussion this evening. PUD versus standard subdivision. I believe the Planning Commission is hung up on...because they can't decide on minimum lot size. And if they can't decide on it, it clearly is a political issue that is the responsibility of the Council to guide and direct. I'd like Paul's letter to be on the next agenda and I would like the Council to just address PUD and lot size and are lO,O00 feet okay or too big? And there's a ~ealth of information available that other cities are doing. Councilman Hason moved, Councileoaan Dialer seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the mot[on carried. The meeting uas adjourned at 9:55 Submitted by Oon Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim