1990 11 19CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR HEETING
NOUEHBER 19, 1990
Mayor Chmlel called the meetlng to order at 7:40 p.D.. The meetlng was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCILHEHSERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Workman, Councilwoman Dimler,
Councilman Johnson and Councilman Wing
STAFF PRES[NT: Don Ashworth, Elliott Knetsch, Gary Warren, Paul Krauss, Todd
Gerhardt, Todd Hoffman, and Scott Hart
OATH OF OFFICE: Mayor Chmlel moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to appotnt
Richard Wing to the City Council as a replacement for Councilman Boyt's vacancy.
All voted in favor and the motion carrled unanimously.
Richard Wing was given the Oath of Office by Elliott Knetsch from the City
Attorney's offlce.
APPROUAL OF AGENDA: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
approve the agenda with the following additions under Administrative
Presentations: Paul Krauss wanted to dlscuss the Eastern Carver County Study
and the Comprehensive Plan. All voted in favor of the amended agenda and the
motion carried.
PUBI~IC ANNI:IUNCEHENT$:
PRES;NTATIQH OF HAPLE LEAF AWARD TO CLIFFORD WHZTEHILL.
Clifford Whitehtll was not present at the meeting so Mayor Chmiel indicated that
the Maple Leaf Award would be sent to hlm.
ACCEPT DONATIONS. A PORTION OF THE PROFITS FRON THE OKTOBERFEST CELEBRATION:
Wanda Blteler: Thank you. I'm Wanda Biteler. I'm the Individual Development
Vice President of the Chanhassen Jaycees and have been a member of the Jaycees
for the last 3 years. We would like to present this check back to the City of
Chanhassen. Outing the Oktoberfest we had bowls of caramels and apples. We
sold popcorn and we also sold the glow in the rlng for the ktds. We did very
well. We had profits of $600.00 and we feel 20X was an amount that we decided
on to give back to the Clty and It would be $120.00.
Mayor Chmiel: Great. Appreciate that. Thank you. I think one of the other
thlngs was a dunk tank was It not?
Wanda Biteler: That's 4th of July.
Mayor Chmtel: Oh that's right. That's right but I was swimming then. Many
times. Okay. Secondly we have Dave Holub of Chanhassen Snowmobile Club. Dave?
Dave Holub: Thank you. Z'd also like to, as a result of the Oktoberfest,
donate what our totals, 20~ of our proceeds. Ours was slightly less than
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
the 3aycees, in the amount of $64.00. We put on the Toys for Kids and the games
that you saw there and so the Chanhassen Club would like to present this to the
City and thank you for your support.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone else wishing to present any more
checks? That's one way of gettlng our deficit down.
CONSENT AGENDA; Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to
approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendations:
a. Site Plan Amendment for McGlynn Bakeries to add a 52,972 square feet
manufacturing addition and a 3,600 refrigeration equipment addition to the
exlstlng building, One McGlynn Drive.
c. Resolqtion ~90-147: Accept Utilities in a portion of Lake Susan Hils West
4th Addition, Project 9C-id.
f. Approval of Accounts.
g. City Council Minutes dated November 5, 1990
Planning Commission Minutes dated October 24, 1990
Planning Commission Mlnutes dated November 7, 1990
Park and Recreation Commission Mlnutes dated October 23, 1990
Public Safety Commission Minutes dated November 8, 1990
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
B. APPROVE PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS. AUTHORIZE ADVERTISING FOR kIDS FOR WEST
78TH STREET DETACHHENT ZHPROVEHENT PRO3ECT 87-2.
Councilwoman Oimler: I pulled item (b). Mr. Burdick would like to make some
comments.
Jim Burdick: Jim Burdick from Excelsior. On the 78th Street detachment, I've
seen the plans and Bill Engelhardt has looked them over and I'm quite pleased
ulth the overall plan. Thank heavens BRW's got away from these jogs and
dangerous corners and switching this lane and that lane and it's really quite a
straight, clean deslgn. However, the plans available do not show the
landscaping and I just wanted to be aware that what you're approving, that
landscaping ls not included and I'm most concerned about bushes and brush making
blind, dangerous corners and killer trees along the street. And of course
there's a curve in the street and I'm also concerned about the great
expenditure. We all remember when there were $300,000.00 worth of trees in an
area much shorter than thls and thank heaven most of them dled. You've heard me
say that before but it's a terrible expense and I'd be very slow on any
assessment for any shurbs, trees, what have you. The original plan had one tree
after another tied together but the minute Carver County saw it, they said
you're not golng to put a tree withln 200 feet of CR 17 so that saved part of
it. But I just wanted to express my concern about this and call your attention
to the fact that apparently lt's not here for you people to see it tonight and
it wasn't available for me to see lt. Both from a danger standpoint and
practical standpoint and the expense. If it's going to be assessed against the
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
two property owners which, Charlie James and me. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Jim. Is there anyone else that would like to address
that? Gary do you have anything to cover on that aspect?
Gary Warren: The landscaping that was included in the feasibility study, due to
the narrow right-of-way width, the landscaping concept is being reviewed and
will be brought back to the Council. As you may recall from the staff report,
we're looking to actually bid the project in February and we're going to be
running this plan set through the regulatory agencies who don't care about the
landscaping obviously so we wanted to get the plans set, at least in this form
through. Landscaping plan will be brought back to the Council for separate
approval. The budget in the feasibility study included street lighting, trail
and landscaping lumped together so I can't tell you exactly how much was Just
for the landscaping but that budget was about $330,000.00 and that was the 1987
budget so we are sensitive. BRW is sensitive to the problems that we had with
sight distance and such and this portion of the project is supposed to serve as
a transitional area from no landscaping into what we have in the downtown so the
concept definitely is diminished from downtown's landscaping. But that will
come back as a separate item.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, very good. Any other discussion? If not, may I have a
motion?
Councilwoman Oimler: That's all I had so I move 1rem (b).
Mayor Chmiel: Is there a second?
Councilman Workman: Should you make as part of that motion?
Councilwoman Oimler: With the understanding that the landscaping will come back
to us for separate approval.
Councilman Workman: Second.
Re~lution 190-148: Councilwoman O~mler moved. Councilman ~orkman seconded to
approve the plans and Specifications and authorize Advertising for bids for ~e~t
78th Street Detachment Improvement Project No. 87-2 with the under, and/rig that
the Landscaping w111 come back for aeprate approval. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously.
E. APPOINTNENTS TO THE SENZOR NEEDS COtffiZSSION.
Councilman Johnson: I was kind of surprised to See that there was a meeting
that [ wasn't at that the Seniors Commission, since [ was the one that started
the whole thing 4 years ago and have been working on this thing for 4 soltd
years, that this was considered at a meeting that not only [ wasn't at but when
they went to call me to tell me that ! was missing this meeting, they decided,
that Oon was told not to call me. That you had a quorum and that you didn't
want me at the meeting anyway.
Mayor Chmiel: Whoa. Stop right there.
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
Councilman Johnson: Well, that's just what I've been told.
Mayor Chmiel: Do you want to clarify that?
Councilman Johnson: I missed the meeting.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Councilman Johnson: It was not a City Council meeting. Don went to caii me. He
was then told, we've got a quorum. Let's not call him and get the meeting over
with. Something similar to that. I don't know exactly what happened but
I never.
Mayor Chmiel: You're taking it out of context Jay.
Councilman Johnson: I probably am.
Mayor Chmiel: Jay, stick to the issue.
Councilman Johnson: Stick to the issue? Okay. You had a Board of Elections
meeting and you considered City Council things at it. It wasn't on any agenda.
Nobody knew it was going to be considered. The public had no business or had
no opportunity to putting input into it and decisions were made. Especially
since the Council member that brought it all wasn't even there, it was kind of
difficult. I didn't like it being made. Now to what was made. It was made
that we will base our decision on who's going to be on the Senior Needs Study
based on age, not abilities or what the person has to contribute to it. So as
far as I know that's age discrimination for one and we should not change our
ordinance to include age discrimination as a criteria for membership on any
committee we have here and so I'm against that part of this. Number two, by
having this age restriction you have to be a senior to be on the seniors
committee. It eliminates the care providers or the providers of services that
have the two providers of services to seniors who have experience and expertise
that will be invaluable to this commission. It eliminates them .from being on
the commission. I've argued this point a couple times before. I argued it when
we made the original seniors commission trying to get care providers on it to
have local expertise or have expertise other than just being a senior. So
I would like to table this and do the interview process as originally planned
before that meeting earlier this month changed it.
Mayor Chmiel: Oon, would you like to respond?
Don Ashworth: Yes. I think Councilman Johnson brought up a couple of points
that I do need to clarify. One, we did have a Council meeting. It was
canvasing returns and that had been brought out as part of public meeting and
everyone knew that it was to occur. It got to be whatever time we had set for
the meeting. The Mayor was there, Councilwoman Oimler. We were short of
quorum. I said I'll call Jay and Tom. As I went into my office to call, I
overheard elther Ursula or Don say, oh here comes Tom and I never called etther
of the other two. No one had told me don't call anyone or do call or anything
else. Second point. The Counc11 dld not make a decision that nlght regarding
the seniors study. We did dlscuss that you would like to have this on to a
future agenda where it would be publically discussed. That ls tonight's agenda.
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
That's the reason the item is before you so that it won't be at a public
meeting.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Councilman Johnson: On the Consent Agenda.
Mayor Chmiel: Well Jay, it was a meeting that all the Counctl people were to be
at of which we knew that meeting was going to take place and I think you were
well aware of the fact that the canvasing board was going to review those that
evening and you were to be there. So it Isn't as if you weren't aware.
Councilman Johnson: Well. I knew the canvasing board was going to meet.
I missed the meeting.
Mayor Chmiel: Rtght. Thank you.
Councilman Workman: Well you know, we discussed an awful lot of things there
that night but made no decisions. Jay, I guess I'm not going to be saddened. I
think we've talked about this before and you've been trying to put on this
commission people from outside the city that are care providers unlike any other
commission we have.
Councilman Johnson: There's nobody outside.
Councilman Workman: Well, in prior discussions you've complained that we're
eliminating people from outside our community which are care providers because I
don't know of any care providers in our city, unless you can tell me somebody
that's providlng care in our city for the elderly. They have to come from
outside the city. I don't feel bad about making people on our commissions
clttzens of the city of Chanhassen and the way the senior citizens are set up
these days, I'm almost a senior citizen. Now at age 31 I might have a whole lot
of, I might think I've got a whole lot of insight into the elderly but I've got
a feeling that somebody at age 6S might be able to have a little bit or there
abouts might have some insights I don't have. I don't think that's age
discrimination and I resent being accused of lt.
Councilman Johnson: I don't know. When you put age on it, it's age
discrimination and there are care providers that have applied. Two of them who
are citizens of the clty and the previous, we had two care providers. Just
because they don't provide the care in the city. One Is at Waconia Ridgedale.
The other at the Scott Carver Coop and they both provide services to seniors and
they can't be on it because of their age. They're too young. You can't be on
it. There's only one member of'the Council that can be on tt and that's Oon. I
don't think Ursula's 55.
Councilwoman Dimler: Thank you Jay. That was very nice of you to say. I
guess I'Ll add my comments. We had 9 applicants I belteve and there's 7 seats
to be filled. I felt very strongly if it's a mentor commission that the seniors
are best qualified to serve on it and sen[or is 55 so it isn't like we've got
you know really, really old people: If that's what you're concerned wtth.
Councilman Johnson: Well no.
City council Meeting - November 19, 1990
Councilwoman Oimler: If you're thinking of being senile or anything like that.
Councilman Johnson= Oh no.
Mayor Chmiel: And of course many of these people who've applied for this were
set up and gave us the tnstght as to the concerns.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah, they were on the task force and they're very well
knowledgeable. They were in on the ground workings and I think they deserve to
be on the commission.
Mayor Chmiel: I agree.
Councilman Johnson: Well with that agreement, is there a chance that we could
appoint the two care providers that have applied uho, Pat says she's over 30 so
she's at least that old, and the other one, Linda is a month younger than I am,
and I'm not a senior yet. That we ask them to participate as a special
oonsultant to the group so that we don't just eliminate. So they'd be almost a
non-voting member. So the members can vote. The 7 members can vote but these
people who work day in, you know work every day ulth seniors providing servlces
and have a practical knowledge of what seniors are asking for, that they
participate in it.
Mayor Chmiel: What I would like to see done Jay is let the commission come up
with that conclusion. If they would like, if they so choose, then I would say
fine. I say leave it up to the commission themselves.
Councilman Johnson: Should we eliminate it as a part of the ordinance, the age
part of it and just have it at the Council's disoretion that It ls the City
Council's, we're not going to have an ordinance that has an age limit in our
ordinance. I just don't belleve in dolng that. Saytng that, comprised of
residents of age 55.
Mayor Chmiel: I'd like to see the responsibilities put back onto people who
feel what their needs basically are and not eomeone sort of guess what those
needs might be. Let them oonclude as to what they feel they would ltke to have
done wlthin this community. Provide those kinds of services or whatever to
them. They know better than what we do. Or excuse me, maybe than you do. I've
got to exclude myself.
Councilman Johnson: You've got to exclude yourself from that. Yeah but, I'm
just going on the technical point of we have established. I mean there are
certaln things that are eetablished by age. Drinking. Ortver license. Stuff
like that but participating in a government commission should not be that. You
can be president of the United States but you can't be on thls commission.
Mayor Chmlel: Rather than to deliberate this much longer, let's put it to a
vote. If you'd 11ke to make a motion.
Councilman Johnson: Okay, I'll make the first motion that we modify the
resolution to eliminate the requirement that all members of the commission are
over the age of 55.
City Council Meeting - November ~9, 1990
Mayor Chmtel: [s there a second? [t appears as though It's going to die for
[ack of a second. So I see we'll retain that Within. Can I have a eot[on?
Councilwoman Oimler: ! move approval of 1rem l(e) as is.
Councilman Workman: Second.
Counc/luoman Dialer moved, Councilman #orlman seconded to approve the
appointments to the Senior Need~ Commlu~on a~ recommended. All uoted in favor
except Councilman 3ohn~on who opposed and the mot/on carried w~th a vote of 4 to
1.
V~SZTOR PRESENTATZONS:
Diana Maas: Good evening Mayor, CouncIlmembers. My name Is Diana Maas. ! live
on 641Contestoga Trail. Or my husband and !, my family and ! live there. My
property that my family and ! live on Includes a very seal! wetland. Ursula !
think lives very close to me. That approximately & homeowners own as portions
of their property. !n 1988 the City of Chanhassen approved the plans for my
home which was designed to have a deck out of the back yard which ts along that
wetlands. This same area. after we moved Into our home being ambitious first
time homeowners, my husband built a deck and In retrospect we've learned #e
needed a permit so we came to the City to apply for the property procedures to
obtain the permit. We were told that the permit wouldn't be approved because
there was a 75 foot setback ordinance from the wetlands so the next step was to
apply for a variance. !n sitting down with 3o ann Olsen she said the procedure
for granting a variance was to prove hardship and tn my case we probably would
not be able to do that. !n talking to my peIghbors and exploring the matter
further, we learned that my neighbor on 7241 Sierra Court was Issued a permit
for 25 feet from the wetlands for his deck.
Mayor Chmiel: Can I have that address again? 72?
Diana Maas: 7241 Sierra Court. ! also learned that the builder Norsk-Fleck was
Issued two permits to build homes closer than 7S feet to the wetlands. Those
would be 7241 and 7251 Sierra Court. Basically I'm coming before the Council
tonight to ask for your counsel on where to go with this Issue. We've submitted
our deck permit application and all the proper drawings and I'm Just here
basically, I'd like to get all the proper paperwork tn and I'm not quite sure
where to go with It from here.
Councilwoman Dimler: Diana, would you repeat your address?
Diana Haas: 641 Contestoga Trail. I sort of feel that the City has set a
precedence by already issuing one permit within 25 feet for my neighbor and then
to ask me to go through a very expensive variance procedure, It's sort of an
issue of fairness and I'm just here for your counsel basically.
Mayor ChmIel: I guess what I would like to probably see done Is to gather the
data, the Information so we can have lt. So we can review it and come up with a
conclusion. I'm not sure as to what's existing. What's there and what the
encroachments are. From what you're looking, what would be your existing
setback from the deck if the deck were to be put on? What are you asking?
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
Diana Maas: The closest corner of my home is 79 feet from my plot drawing.
From the wetlands. Our deck is 14 feet so it would be withln 10 feet. So it'd
be 65 feet.
Councilman Workman: I guess we, I know in our trtals and tribulations of
variances, we were getting frustrated at one point about people coming In and
maybe they were spending the fee for the varlance and maybe they dldn't have a
ballpark's chance of getting it. It's tough for us to predict what tt would be.
I think we settled down a little blt or we had asked staff to maybe try and
deflect people who maybe weren't going to be able to get them or looked
apparently like they weren't golng to get them. ! thlnk in 11ght of the fact
that we changed our vartance procedure, her situation probably, I'm not going to
predict, may fit our new procedure but maybe we haven't redirected staff to
modify their recommendations to people coming In or the applicants because maybe
you've gotten some of the bureauraoy at Clty Hall that you didn't feel like
having and now you're here tonight. So I don't know if we need to redirect them
or maybe ask staff to not even get lnvolved In the game of predicting or
suggesting.
Mayor Chmlel: Paul?
Paul Krauss: We never like to have to second guess what the Council is going to
do or what the Board of Adjustments ts going to do. However we think that it's
reasonable and necessary for people to have an 1des about what the procedures
are and what the likelihood of success is and then they can decide. And we
always tell you that we think you might have a problem or we thtnk it's going to
get approved. It's really up to you to apply and here's how you have to do that.
Mm. 01sen talked to me about this one this afternoon and she had advised Ms.
Maas that the procedure was to apply for the variance. I'm not prepared to say
rlght now whether or not we would recommend approval or dental of the variance.
This is one of those, you know we have some of these nightmare situations with
decks. This ls one of them. There was one permlt that apparently was lssued
several years ago in error. It probably shouldn't have been. There were two
decks built without permits that encroached. The wetlands ls one of those
that's tough to locate. You know since last year we've been looking at new
house plans and whenever there's a patlo door and lt's set 75 feet back from the
wetland, we reject the plans now so I mean we're doing a lot of things to change
this but the procedure here is really to go through with the variance
application which Jo Ann did advise. We really, again we don't try to put words
in your mouth or anticipate exactly what you're going to do but based upon the
facts as we see them, we try to advise the applicant as best we can yet tell
them the door is always open for them to apply.
Councilwoman Otmler: Is it a Class n or a Class B wetland?
Paul Krauss: Councilwoman I really don't know. I don't know all the facts.
Mayor Chmiel: That's some of the specifics we're not aware of.
Paul Krauss: As you're aware, what Councilman Workman was describing was the
variance amendment that allows us to look at neighborhoods that deviate from the
ordinance standard and say the ordinance won't apply here. We'll use the
City Council Heetlng - November 19, 1990
neighborhood standard. Maybe that's applicable here. I Just don't know at this
time.
Councilwoman Oimler: Okay. We're talking about a 10 foot variance. Old I hear
that correctly? And were talking about a deck that's already existing?
Mayor Chmiel: Yep.
Councilwoman Dimler: I do remember one last year where we had that before us as
well and [ think we should consider lt.
Councilman 3ohnson: The procedure Is to apply for the variance.
Paul Krauss: Yeah. There was never any indication that It wouldn't be
considered. 3ust that the procedure was to apply for a variance.
Diana Haas: Is there any chance of, since the preoedent has been set that
permits have already been Issued without the variance procedure that the fees
could be waIvered for the variance? It's a very expensive process that the
City's asking me to go through when they've granted my neighbor a permit within
25 feet of this same area with no expense Incurred upon them other than the
permit. Rs an Issue of fairness to one neighbor to the next?
Councilwoman Dialer: What's It going to cost?
Paul Krauss: $75.00.
Diana Maas: Then there's a property call list that has to go out that is over
$100.00 or more dollars ao that's several hundred dollars you're asking me to
pay for the same permit my neighbor received for basic, Just whatever the permit
fee is which Is minimal.
Councilwoman Dimler: And your neighbor paid $75.007
Paul Krauss: Rnybody who went through a variance procedure paid that.
Diana Maas: My neighbor did not go through a variance procedure.
Paul Krauss: Rgatn, there's a lot of history to this one and I'm really up to
speed on all of It but normally when somebody builds without a permit, they're
double feed. I don't know tf that was done In this case or not. We try to work
these things out as amicably as possible. I guess I would ask you, If you're
looking to waive the fee, to walt until the variance comes before you and you
can determine whether or not you want to rebate It. I don't know If this ts a
unique situation or not. Jo Ann has [ed me to believe that, apart from the
background, that It might not be particularly unique but you. could decide that
at such time that you review a variance.
Mayor Chmiel-' Yeah. We don't know all the specifics either so it's rather hard
for us to either say waive It or whatever and I think I would Just as soon see
the specifics regarding that and then move from that particular direction.
Whether It ~ould be a requirement for you to file for a variance or we could
take the position saying it's Justifiable and they should not but I would like
City Council Meeting - November [9, [990
to get all the specific data. I'd like to see what it is and what it consists
of and probably even come out there and take a look at it as well.
Paul Krauss: Should we then proceed with the variance application and notify
the Council with that? Otherwise [ think it's going to take a long time for
things to bounce back and forth between you and the Board of Adjustments.
Mayor Chmtel: Right.
Councilwoman Oimler: Really with the new procedure it won't even come before
the Board of Adjustments would it unless one of us called it forward?
Councilman Johnson: Or a neighbor protested or something.
Mayor Chmtel: Yes, unless there's a protest on it.
Paul Krauss: But you know, ! think what we would do here is the applicant would
come before the Board of Adjustments with a variance request and then could
request that it goes on. Not, if they approve it they would then come to you to
request waiver of the fees and we'd give you the packet and you could make your
determination.
Mayor Chmlel: Yes. I'd like to see it done that way. Because I don't want to
establish another procedure that someone else could come in and say that so I'd
like to be consistent with what we've done tn the past. And even though these
have gone in without our know[edge or have been set back as they are, I think we
best be consistent with this and continue on as we're gotng. Thank you very
much for coming in.
Dlana Haas: Thank you for your time.
Mayor Chmlel: Is there anyone else wishing to address Council at this time? If
not let's go onto our next item on the agenda, the Unfinished Business. This ts
to cons£der traffic control for West 78th Street through downtown. Presentation
by our consultant. It looks 11ks they all left.
Don Ashworth: Gary, do you want to see this tabled until later in the agenda?
Gary Warren: That was my understanding we were going to do that because this
may take some time for discussion.
Mayor Chmiel: Z thlnk someone mentioned that. Gentlemen, if you don't mind
we'll Just proceed with this and we'll put you back on the later part of the
agenda.
PRELIHINARY PLAT REVIEW TO SUBDIVIDE 8.7 ACRES INTO 15 $INCII. E FAHILY LOTS
LOCATED SOUTH OF PLEASANT 9IEW ROAO ANO VINELANO FOR[ST PLAT ~NO EAST OF
PEACEFUL LANE..TROENOLE AODITION.
Mayor Chmiel: Paul, where'd he go? There is he. He's running down the stairs
quickly.
Paul Krauss: Sorry. I didn't expect you to jump ahead.
10
City council Heettng - November 19, 1990
Hayor Chmtel: We like to keep you on your toes.
Councilman Workman: I'd move approval.
Councilwoman Dialer: Really, that fast?"
Paul Krauss: The applicants are requesting approval to subdivide an 8.7 acre
site into 15 single family lots. The lots would be served by an extension of
Nez Perce OrIve. That street currently terminates Into VIneland Forest
subdivision. The City Councl! may recall that the Vineland Forest plat looked
at a variety of alternatives for extension of streets so that the neighborhood
could be developed with an overall access plan. Ultimately it was decided that
alternative ~3 of the 5 or & alternatives that were revIeued was the favorite
alternative and Vineland Forest was designed to meet this plan. What It
envisioned Is the extension of Nez Perce which terminates In a cul-de-sac right
here now. Ultimately through the Troendle property and then ultimately would
pass through the Owen's parcel connecting Peaceful Lane with the...PleasantvIew.
The goal of the process was to provide a thru street connection for a fairly
large area. At that time [ don't think anybody antIc[pated the Troendle
property coming tn for development so quickly but here it ts and the plat that
you see before you was designed consistent with that recommendation. What It
would do is the current cul-de-sac ts over here. It would be extended. I'm
sorry. The current cul-de-sac Is over here. It would be extended to the west
into another temporary cul-de-sac. The Oven's parcel le over there and the
connection to Pleasant View would occur at such time as the Owen's property ts
developed. The plat meets or exceeds most single family district standards.
Utilities are available. Orainage appears to be accoptable although some
further work tn terms of providing computations ts'necessary. Basically the
storm water would be ponded. Most of tt would be...on this lot. Thls plan has
been changed somewhat from this transparency. Staff was concerned that Lot 4
was difficult to build upon because of the size of that pond but basically the
home... The plan was revised so that this pond Is no~ moved a little blt
further to the south and that there's a larger yard area for that lot. The Item
was reviewed by the Planning Commission on October 17th. Area residents raised
some concerns regarding access Issues concerning this plat. The City's'also
recetved a letter from these residents stnce the meeting which ts Included tn
the Council packet. Their Issues, well they have several Issues but they
basically boil down to traffic safety. They've raised concerns with the use of
Lake Lucy Road to serve this division and as you can see from the overall area
plan, that Lake Lucy Road and Nez Perce are the only access right now...and that
will be the case until Peaceful Lane opens up. They made a request that some
sort of...feasIble, that a connection be made to Pleasant View so that this
subdivision has two means of access at this point In-time. Staff supports that
as an Idea but we can't find a realistic way to accomplish lt. When the overall
concept plan was approved, the opportunity to put a road through to the north
was really eliminated because of local topographic conditions. Some of the
alternatives as you may recall at that time Included punching up of the road
straight through to Pleasant View which had some traffic concerns. Property
line that's undeveloped... There's a large wetland over here and we really
believe that we're gotng to be forced to rely on the long cul-de-sac until the
Owen's property does develop. You may also recall that the Owen's property did
receive subdivision approval several years ago. At that time tt uae to be
platted. That plat has since lapsed. We have some reason to feel, having
11
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
talked to the owner and several other people that it may be platted again
sometime in the future but there's no certainity of exactly when that's going to
occur. There's two other issues that have been raised in this review. Staff is
requesting that additional right-of-way be granted along Pleasant View.
Something on the order of 7 feet. Pleasant View has an underwidth right-of-way
and the road design is far from meeting current standards and has some safety
problems. I think everybody accepts the fact that widening Pleasant View, if
it's ever done, is going to be a very controversial project but I think it's
only our professional responsibility to tell you that traffic levels on that
street are relatively high now and are projected to grow whether or not we want
them to. I think that would be particular true wtth the openlng of the
Crosstown highway at TH 101. We think it's probably going to happen at some
point in time but at least some safety related Improvements are golng to have to
be made so we're recommending that we take the additional 7 foot of right-of-way
so that we have the opportunity to make those changes In the future. The last
issue concerns a barn. The .Troendle barn which is located on Lot 2. Frankly
when we had laid out the road concept plan we had assumed that when the Troendle
property was developed that the barn would be removed. It's an old structure.
It's recently been improved I think in the last few months but we thought when
the area's platted it would be removed. The current plans are to give the
Troendle, or Mr. Troendle I believe a life estate so that he would keep the home
and the barn. The problem comes about is that the road extended to the west as
it needs to be, creates a variance situation for setback from the barn. When
these things occur normal recommendation in the past has been, if it's a barn
and it were a garage and not the house, has been to either move it or bring it
down and build a new one. We are recommending that that be done here. We don't
see the hardship particularly that would be required to maintain the variance
for setback that results. The Planning Commission had a suggestion that some
sort of a temporary variance be looked at or change one of our conditions to
propose that. We've given that to you in the staff report. We're not
recommending that that be done. We have a difficult time grasping the concept
of a temporary variance. A variance is forever. We're also not quite sure how
we'd administered that so we are recommending that a policy that we think is
consistent with our past actions and that the barn be either relocated or
removed. With that we are recommending approval of the plat without variances
subject to the conditions in the staff report.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Paul. Is there anyone else wishing to address this?
Please state your name and address please?
Terry Burke: My name is Terry Barks and I live at g60 Lake Lucy Road. I'm one
of the, a member of the neighborhood group that sent you copies of this letter.
Did everyone receive the letter? Had a chance to read through lt? If so, I'm
not going to bore you with going over the letter. Didn't everyone receive this?
Mayor Chmiel: No, I've not seen it. It's not in my packet.
Paul Krauss: It should have been as back-up. I'm sorry if it wasn't but it was
lntended to be as back-up in your packet.
Councilman Workman: It gets lost in City Hall if you send it there.
Mayor Chmtel: I'd you to at least go through your letter.
12
City Council Heetlng - November
Councilwoman Oimler: You mean in the administrative packet?
Paul Krauss: No. No, In the back-up.
Terry Barks: We talked to the people tn the city here and they assured us that
it uould be included in your review packets for this week.
Councilman 3ohnson: It's supposed to be attachment ~5.
Paul Krauss: Yeah, I looked It up. Here it Is. It's called Attachment ~S.
It's dated November 11th. It's about & pages from the back of your, the Hinute
packet.
Counciluoman Dialer: I don't have lt.
Councilman Johnson= It starts, the purpose of this letter is to express.
Terry Barks: That's correct. That's the one.
CounciLwoman O£mler: Oh, okay.
Terry Barks: Apparently not everyone's received It, or hasn't read it anyway.
It sounds like received It but maybe not read it. Haybe I should, should I Just
read through it then?
Hayor Chmiel: Please.
Terry Barks: Okay. It's addressed to the City council members. The purpose of
this Letter is to express the viewpoint of the residents of Lake Lucy Road
residing east of Powers Blvd. to the plans for development of the Troendle
Addition. We have organized together to offer an opinion on the development
plans and make our concerns known to the Council..In this manner we hope that a
development plan can be defined which satisfies the needs of all concerned
parties. We support the proposed development plan for the Troendle Addition and
feel that a thorough evaluation of the options #as performed and the resulting
plan represents good work by a number of people. There are several aeterlcks of
the plan that are appealing to us. Shared traffic ~mrden between Lake Lucy Road
and Pleasant View as a means of ex/ting the neighborhood to Powers Blvd. and the
proposal for a park In the new development, among other aspects. The major
concern of the neighborhood ts with regard to the traffic safety on Lake Lucy
Road east of Powers Blvd.. We feel that a serious problem ex[ets at the present
time with the speed and driving patterns of people drlvtng this road In light of
the [ergs number of young children living. In the neighborhood. There are or
soon will be 13 children 10 years old or younger on this street. [t is safe to
assume that this number wiLL gro~ In the future as the demographics of the
neighborhood reflect young families. The neighborhood ts willing to work with
the appropriate safety groups to find solutions to the existing prob[em.
Oevelopment of the Troendle Addition will add traffic.volume to Lake Lucy Road
and increase the risk of injury to children In our neighborhood. We accept this
fact as part of development In the community. However, our neighborhood does
not wish to provide the only access.from Powers 81vd. to the ¥ineland Forest and
Troendle additions on a temporary basis until the proposed NeZ Perce Road
13
city council Meeting - November ig, /990
eventually connects with Peaceful Lane. We feel that construction on the
Troendle Addition must not proceed until Nez Pefco is connected to Peaceful
Lane. The residents of Lake Lucy Road are bearing the complete volume of
construction traffic for Vtneland Forest and feel that this burden should be
shared by creating access for construction traffic from Pleasant View Road for
development of the Troendle Addition. The planning committee and the Council
have previously raised concerns over the difficulty of completing planned road
connections at future dates. We agree. This provides another good reason to
complete the Nez Pefco connection to Peaceful Lane prior to construction of the
Troendle Addition. Future residents of the Troendle Addition and Vineland
Forest would then be provided with a second access for safety reasons without
delay. In summary, the residents of our neighborhood feel that the proposed
development plan is basically a very good one. Our major concern is traffic
safety and our philosophy is that traffic volume must be shared. We are not
stating that some increase in traffic volume is unacceptable. That is the
price of community development. We are stating that this increase in traffic
volume caused by these additions must be shared between Lake Lucy Road and
Pleasant View Road in an equitable manner prior to construction on the Troendle
Addition. This is ultimately in the best interest of all those concerned. We
will continue to strive for a solution to this issue until it can be resolve tn
an acceptable manner. And then it's signed by myself and my neighborhood.
Basically what I'd like to Just say Is that again we think this plan will, the
Alternative ~3 is really a nice looking neighborhood and we're glad to have that
close to us. With what we've been reading in Minutes from previous Planning
Commission meetings, it sounds like there's concern about having a cul-de-sac
that Long for safety reasons. It sounds like trying to connect up to stubs at a
future date is always tenuous. We're really concerned that somehow we're going
to end up, the people along Lake Lucy Road are going to end up having the entire
burden of that Troendle Addition traffic and Vineland Forest for an indefinite
period of time. We think that when everything ts done and completed it's fine.
We feel like we've already had a lot of construction traffic and we're going to
get more with Vlneland Forest and somehow we think it's only fair that the
people on Pleasant View share some of that. And I realize that Pleasant View is
not a very good road for traffic and as a result of that, the road access to
Pleasant View has changed so that it could actually exit very close to Powers
Blvd. and that's great. I think that takes care of a lot of the problems on
Pleasant View and we're just concerned about our situation and the safety of our
children in the neighborhood. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone else?
Oaryl Fortier: Good evening. I'm Oaryl Fortler, the applicant. I'm also
representing Frank Beddor Jr. and Mr. Troendle. I believe you've received some
of the information that we've already prepared and I'll try to make this as
brief as I can. We've reviewed the staff report and for the most part we concur
with it. There are a few points however we'd like to touch on to ask for your
assistance. The ftrst point ls 8(b) and that ls for the request for an easement
to the west to allow for the discharge of water from this site. I'm uncertain
wlth that as to what the proper disposition ls. It appears to us that presently
the rate of discharge ts going to be equal to what is existing. We are not
discharging any additional water onto the Art Owens property. For us to secure
an easement over the Art Owens' property, we would have to know, Mr. Owens would
also have to know what are we attempting to achieve with thls easement? Also,
14
City Council Meeting - November
what would be the definition of the easement. Z'm not quite sure how to resolve
that issue. Perhaps staff can be of some ass[stance.
Mayor Chmtel: Paul or Gary?
Paul Krauss: possibly Gary can take that?
Gary Warren: Well and Z could ask Elltott to comment after my comments. The
purpose of the easement would be to assure-that the City or the development has
the right to discharge from that subdivision. I guess we've not been provided
with the storm sewer calculations, at least as far as I'm aware at this time so
as far as the magnitude of the easement, those calculations are necessary for us
to confirm that. The drainage that is currently exist£ng drains through this
area. Is that correct?
Daryl Fortler: That is correct.
Gary Warren: So that's a question that I'd have for Elltott as far as if you're
not altering the drainage course per se, or intensifying it, can the adjoining'
property owner alter that? Doesn't he also have to accommodate that in any
other development plans that he would have?
Elltott Knetsch: Yes. We can require this kind of a dedication as part of the
subdivision process to deal with water that's on the land that's be£ng
subdivided and that's what I understand this request to be.
Councilman Johnson: You want dedication of the land next door too? Not
dedication but an easement of the next door's land is what he's talking about.
The next door neighbors.
Elliott Knetsch: Well the water's on his property and it's going to be coming
off the property and they have to take steps to regulate the discharge from
their property.
Mayor Cheiel: What if you have existing flows? Topography's going to remain
the same. No difference. Isn't that what you said before Gary?
Gary Warren: What I was addressing is the fact that if the drainage is
currently draining in this same area, then the property owner, Hr. Owens in this
case still needs to accommodate it. The City should require and is requiring
that the rate be controlled to the pre-development runoff rate which [s the
purpose for the ponding but the actual drainage course, if it exists today,
Mr. Owens can alter It but he can't block It. He still has to accommodate it
and so the necessity for the easement, I mean they're nice to have but I think
we can take a hard look at it and possibly do without it.
Oaryl Fortier: As an Individual applicant, how do we go about getting an
easement from an adjacent property owner? What control or rights do we have for
that?
Mayor Chmtel: Would you like to address that?
City Council Meeting - November
Gary Warren: Well we have had several instances. One obviously is to pursue
the property owner and negotiate and purchase an easement. That's one way. The
other is if the property owner is not willing, the City could choose to
intervene on behalf of the developer for the public benefit and condemn that"
particular area to acquire the easement again at the developer's cost.
Duty1 Fortler: With the City's cooperation, we have no objection to proceeding
with that assuming the City's going to support the efforts in securing whatever
easement the City believes is necessary. We are still uncertain as to where it
will go but we're sure wlth staff's help we can find out. The next point I have
is.
Gary Warren: Ithtnk we have, if I could Interrupt. Once we receive the storm
sewer calculations [ think we can better define what the size of that drainage
is and what's necessary.
Oaryl Fortier: Calculations have been submitted. We wtll resubmit and work
w[th staff on that point. ~pparently they're lost in the shuffle somewhere.
The next 1tom I have ls on the same polnt 8(c). Paul has touched on the
widening of PLeasant View and the additional 7 feet. We have directed our
surveyor to include the additional ? feet in this plat. Hr. Beddor wants to
make certain that he's on record of saying he Is in no way supporting the
wldenlng of Pleasant View Road. He will be one of the many people who wtll be
opposed to it. However, we are showing the 7 feet on the rev£ewed prel£m£nary
plat. The next polnt I'd 1tko to address ls the variance for the garage. The
Troendle garage. It's been pointed out in the staff report that to support a
variance we must demonstrate a hardship that's exlsttng and that the hardship
must not be of our own making. We'd I/kw to show a brief blow-up of that area
which I think will demonstrate the hardship. What you see here lsa blow-up of
the intersection from Nez Pefco as it enters from Vineland Forest. It will come
onto the Troendle property. The alignment of the road is such, as shown here tn
yellow, It comes at an 83 ~/2 degrees to the property line and that causes the
setback to be 21.7 feet. If we were to continue the road tn a straight course.
We would prefer not to of course as a developer. Hr. Troendle is receiving a
11fetime estate. Part of the reason Hr. Beddor ls developing this property ~"
to accommodate Hr. Troendle, We would like to see the road sit out at least 30
feet so that no variance ls required. We cannot do that because of the
alignment of this road, This road already exists. Hr, TroendLe and Hr, 8eddor
had no part In causing this road to be specifically here. We certainly dld have
a part in saying that we liked the overall concept and we believe it's a
rationale guideline for planning, We're fully supporting that. However, as to
whether it's com£ng at 87 degrees or 83, we did not participate £n that, For us
to allow Hr. Troendle to keep the garage we would have to put the road in thls
area where it's shown in red, To do that and to match the right-of-way that is
on Vlneland Forest would cause us to put a small curve in the road here such
that it would have a reverse curve. We've talked to traffic engineers as well
as City staff and the engineering department as well as our firm really would
not support that. We find it would be ignored by most drivers, In order for
them to stay in the right-of-way in thelr proper lane, tf we were to put In such
a reverse curve, it would drop their speed to 23 mph. We think most people
would slmple cross over the center 11ne and it would not be good planning to
have a small klnk in the road, So as you can see, we reaLLy cannot comply on
our own property wlth what we believe to be reasonable engineering practices and
City Council HeetLng - November
a setback requirement. We are being forced Into non-compLiance merely because
the alignment with this road whtcb #e dtd not determtne. It was determtned...
Not by Hr. Beddor or Hr. Troendle. We would Like to therefore seek a variance.
In Lieu of a variance we would accept a Llfettee estate for Hr. TroendLe that If
a variance ts not granted, that the garage need not be removed untO! he either
applied for a building permit or until the property was sold to somebody other
than Hr. TroendLe. The way you would have of monitoring this ts very simple.
If anyone comes tn for a building permit, Lt ts either Hr. TroendLe or L~. La not
granted. Even If It ts Hr. Troendle, you would then s~eply check to se&'tf'the
garage La there or not. Zf the garage La there, then there's no building
permit. Hr. Troendle Ls presently 80 years oldL He was born on this location.
HIs folks ~ere the people who bought.this property. He has LiteraLLy Lived here
every day of his life for 80 years. He ts certainly one of the senior c~ttzens
and elders of Chanhassen. We'd Like to see the CIty cooperate and to give Hr.
Troendle this much respect so that he can keep Is present barn which he does
use. I guess that's aLL Z have to say about this variance.
Councilman Johnson: Could ! ask you a question?
OaryL FortLer: CertainLy.
CounciLman Johnson.' Have you talked to the owners of VineLand Forest about
making the modifications to their street back In those t~o Lots there through
t hat cuL-de-sac?
Oaryl Fortier: Yes. We have gone to the extent of even offering to purchase
one of the Lots If he would agree. We've recently been advised that the
additional 4 feet we need here and the 4 feet we need here to correct this
alignment, he would not be In favor of repLattIng his property to provide us
with that additional right-of-way. If the City would like, they certainly have
some powers to secure that Land for us to aLLow us to have a straight road but
we have made that attempt and we've been refused.
Councilman 3ohnson: But you only need the Land on the right side?
Oaryl Fortter: Actually we need land, that's correct. The extra right-of-way
here Is no problem. We would have to secure a strip that's ~8 1/2 feet [cng and
4 feet wide here. So tt must go out 125 square feet.
CounciLman Johnson: If you purchased that Lot, combined It wtth your property,
it would be a repLat.
~ayor ChmLeL: If repLatted...exLstIng?
CounciLman Johnson: Yeah, but you weren't repZatt[ng all VineZand Estates.
You'd be combining that lot as part of your property In your plat.
Defy1 Fortter: That's correct. Hr. Beddor's lntereat was not le this but he
aanted to spec£fLcatLy avoid that. That's wh.y.~h.e made an offer for one Lot. He
made an offer for this front lot whtch would'be potentially off Pleasant View.
CounciLman Johnson: 8ut that doesn't have anything to do with moving the road.
City Counc£1 Meeting - November
Daryl Fortler: Thls one doesn't unfortunately. Part of it was an enticement to
the owner of V£neland Forest. To get him to agree to this plat. He Indicated
that he really was not interested tn selling the lots to fr. Beddor and he was
not Interested in replatting his property so we at this time have to report we
looked at it but we haven't been successful. The ftnal point I have really
addresses Lot 4 and I think Paul's probably done a fine Job of presenting some
of the changes that we've made on lt. I hope this is no longer an lssue. Lot
4, Block Ils In this locat£on and as you can see, we've reconfIgured the pond.
Our englneer has reported to us that the ponding calculations are the very same
or greater than before their capacity to hold the pond. The building area is
rlght up in thls area. The buildtng pad and lt's deslgned for a rear walkout.
a full basement walkout. It walks out at the elevation of i,001. This corner
is set 3 feet lower. This ts 1 foot lower and that leaves you with a relatively
flat yard that ends up It's over 15,000 square feet with only a 3~ slope to lt.
That's a very sizeable and very flat yard. You could easily play football on
lt. Some of the real strong arm. It's the size of a resldent£al lot and that
excludes the building area and it also excludes the ponding area. 15,000 square
feet ts flat. We think that definitely demonstrates that lt'e a very bulldable
lot. That concludes the presentation I guess wtth one comment about the
cltlzens presentation from Mr. Barks. I would certainly agree that traffic
safety should always be a study and we have certainly no objection to trying to
work out some deta£1s where Nez Perce can be constructed at th[s t[me through
to Pleasant View. We know several citizens have concerns there. We have
prepared some graphics to lnd£cate what we would do to that corner of the
intersection. We've also worked with staff wtth lt. How to go about achieving
that I guess is where the quandry really comes tn. For the c£t£zens' concerns,
they may be appropriate to let them know that Mr. Beddor does not intend to
proceed with th£s plat extremely rapidly. He does need to close for Mr.
Troendle's lifetime estate of course so that ls urgent. However, actual
development, he will probably be in here a year from now requesting a one year
extension. We had originally requested that you consider granttng us a i year
extension already and we would be willlng to not have any development occur for
2 years. We were told we would have to come back for a request for an extension
whtch we do £ntend or we do plan on dolng. $o the earliest we would see any
development would probably be a year and a half. That as we would file our plat
within a year and we would then proceed with constructton the following spring
so we don't see this as belng eminently developed but I think the issue remains
the same. If the City ia, perhaps the C[ty could consider wtth their staff
~hether or not some emtnent domain could be exercised or they could talk to fir.
Owens and see what klnd of cooperation can be done. It sounds like a reasonable
suggestion. Thank you.
Mayor Chm£el: Thank you. Is there anyone else?
Julius Smlth: I would just like to clarify one lssue. I'm Julius Smlth and I
represent Frank Beddor occasionally and the last point that Oaryl made on
crosslng Art Owens' property wlth a road to Peaceful Lane. The only way that
Art Owens currently, you can't talk to ~rt Owens about thls because he can't
voluntarily give that easement or sell that property because he's slttlng on a
homestead and he's currently In bankruptcy and the only way that you can, the
only way that he could give that property up and not lose his status tn the
bankruptcy court is either under condemnation or threat of condemnation and that
doesn't change his status. So as long as he's there and for several years
18
City Council Meeting - November ~9, ~990
thereafter you can't, I mean you can talk to Art. Certainly he thinks the road
will be there someday but there's no way that he Can voluntarily s~_e.~.l that to
anybody at this moment or he's really In btg trouble on hls whol& piece of
property. He loses his exemption la what I'm saying.
Mayor Chmlel: But you're saying friendly cOndemnation?
Julius Smith: Well yeah. Under the threat of at least.
·. i;,
Mayor Chmtel: Thank you.
Terry Barke: I'd just like to state that it soutrde llke tm're very close on
something that makes everybody pretty happy. [ think these people seem like
pretty reasonable people to me. It sounds like they're tn no-real hurry right
now to build there and I'm wondering If there Isn't something that we can do to
not rush the process through right now but make sure that when tt does happen,
it happens In a manner that everybody feels good about and It sounds Ilks we're
pretty close to that.
Councilman Workman: Anybody else?
3ia Stasson= Ny name Is 31m Stasson. I live at ~400 Peaceful Lane which ~s on
the corner of Pleasant ¥1ew Road and Peaceful Lane which Is when that road does
go through, I'm going to end up with all the traffic. When the 9tneland Forest
was Initially platted, I aaa never notified of any of this going:on and bY the
time we heard anything about It, Alternate ~3 was already chosen by everybody
and there wasn't much we could do. We got notified on the Troendle property and
my main concern ts, Peaceful Lane has a very large radius corner. Used to be CR
17. Used to come down that way and turn around there. People take that corner
quite rapidly. My driveway le right probably at the end of the corner. Where
my driveway Is, the road'e about 28 feet w~de. The corner's about LSO feet
~tde. My main concern ts when this road comes through, as that corner gets
straighten out to become a regular corner. We get a substantial amount of
traffic for only 3 houses on that road now. a lot Of people come do~n Pleasant
View and they seem to think Pleasant ¥1e~ goes around that corner and they go
down to the dead end and then they turn around and go back out and continue on
down pleasant View Road:. I guess you'Ve got, he had mentioned that there
something to straighten that corner out. I guess I'd like to ese what he's got.
baryl Fortler: Step around front here. With Pleasant ¥te~ Road being down here
on the lower portion, Peaceful Lane comes up this way. What tm are sho~tng la
now a road this Is 28 feet w£de or 30 feet to city standard which would be
connected at a right angle. This port,on of the corner the way It's presently
asphalted, would be converted to grass or Iandscaplng. Similarly this corner
which ts extra utde would also be converted to grass or landscaping. That would
give you a setback of certain distances of '~LO feet to your driveway. That Is
less of course from pavement to pavement depending on the width of the road but
it would be I suspect at least 80 feet which #ould be fairly typical for a turn
onto a residential lot. Ooes that sound reasonable?
~a Stasson: As long as when this-road goes through this gets done. And It'd
be nice ~f this was done before a lot of development occurred so tm.didn't get
the construction traffic coming.
City Council Meeting - November ~9, 1990
Paul Krauss: ['m not quite sure how to put this but Daryl's not in a position
to design city streets on somebody e[se's property.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, Z'm wondering who's going to pay for this.
Paul Krauss: What he's illustrated though is generally consistent with some
guidelines we established that there is a deviation though in that this shows
the new Nez Perce coming straight into Peaceful Lane. That is not the way this
would happen. You have through movement that comes around through here. We'd
want to bring this around on angle and probably come to the Owens' property the
best we can and completely rebuild that intersection. Now we had every
anticipation of doing that design when the Owens' property is developed or I
supposed if the Council wants to condemn right-of-way so we can actually build
the street. We haven't gone to the extent of laying it out because it's
premature at this time but that's generally consistent wlth what we've
discussed.
Councilwoman Oimler: Paul, maybe this ts a good time to ask a question I was
going to ask later. Peaceful Lane, it seems like an awful narrow road to me. Is
it substandard?
Paul Krauss: I'm sure it is. It's basically, it almost appears as though it's
an oversized driveway.
Councilwoman Oimler: A driveway. Do we plan on widening it at this point then?
Bringing it up to city standards?
Paul Krauss: The anticipation always was that when the connection was made,
that would be completely rebuilt.
Councilwoman Otmier: $o you'll bring it up to City standards then?
Paul Krauss: And every attempt will be made to shift I think the pavement width
if possible to the east so that it clears that home, the existing home over
there better than it does right now.
Gary Warren: I think the concepts that we have from when Art. Owens originally
brought this in here 3 or 4 years ago I think serves as a good guide for that
and that certainly was addressing that area as well.
Councilwoman Oimler: Now the question is who's going to pay.
Mayor Chmiel: Where it all goes. Those are a lot of the questions that are
still unanswered unless I get a commitment. I think, any other discussion?
Councilman Johnson: Specifically or in general?
Mayor Chmiel: Well, I think we're looking at a couple three things here really.
Looking at the eminent domain with friendly condemnation. This Z'm not sure as
to how that's all going to work or shake out. It's something that we're going
to have to look at. I don't know if we have all the answers right now to even
move on this at this present time. You're talking roughly that you don't plan
on doing anything this year. I don't see the real need to really rush at this
2O
Ckty Counckl Meeting - November ~9, ~990
untkl we get some concluskons pulled together so we know exactly where we're
gokng and what the baskc needs are. Even though you were together, you were
talking about a year extenskon anyway. Hhat you would be lookkng for woE:iii be
that 8.3 feet varkance as well for the garage. That's something that we have to
look at as well. any other?
Councklman Johnson: Hell, kf we're openkng tt up for.
Hayer ChmkeL: Yes, opening it up for comments?
Councilman Johnson: Fkrst comment, whkch hasn't been explored. [ get Lookkng
at thks pkcture that they gave us and kt sho#s an area in Lot 4 and-Lot 1; Os
you have thks pkcture yourself? Okay. On Lot I and Lot 4 you can see a natural
low area there. Hhkle an aertkal photograph ks not a good thing for Judging
wetlands from, kt appears that most of that area concerned may be a wetland.
haven't gone out and walked kt and Looked at It partkcularly but It shows that
CLass B type wetland vegetatkon. If such, why ken't there a wetland alteratkon
permit lnvolved kn thke? and ka that neighboring wetland that we know lea
wetland and have been arguing wkth Hr. O~en$ for a couple years on, Is that
wlthkn 200 feet and requkree a wetland alteration permit ales?
Paul Krauss: Councklman 3ohnson, as to the first questkon. This has been a
rea! tough one for us. The thing has been'altered extensively. If you read the
background, Hr. Owens' cLakms that kt never used to be a wetland. That the
at one tkme apparently, accordkng to htm, broke a tile lkne that used to drain
the area cauekng the wetland vegetatkon to ex,st. You know historkcal!y you can
take that back further. He contacted the eot! conservation service. They said
that the area on Hr. Owens' property has dehydr~c
Line, kt's because it was a wetland in the first place end'.somebody drained
so I mean we've come to the conclusion that that pond on Hr. Owens' property
ldentkfkable as a wetland protected by the City. The part of that that extends
onto the TroendLe property though has been heavily a~tered and some of that by
the k~Lega~ fk~ltng or unpermktted flllkng that occurred on Hr. Owens' property
backkng water up In there and changkng th~ngs. 3o Rnn was out there wkth F~sh
and Ht~dlkfe Service and they concluded that the portton of--~t that's on the
Troend~e property was not the wetland. That the wetland ~ae further to the
west. I k~ow kt was scaled at one time. I would assume It was over the 200
feet. ! thknk we can, ~ don't know kf we can pLck kt off what we have right
now.
Councklman Johnson: Okay, so Fksh and Hkldlkfe has looked at the sokls there
and they're not wetland sokls and that's not tmtZand vegetation kn that Low
area?
Paul Krauss: It's not a true wetland on Lot 4, yeah.
Councilman Johnson: Okay. Re long as the experts have looked at kt that's
fine. You know takkng the access issue one step further, Nez Perce ks a road
that has, and a Lot of the roads kn Carver Beach, has long been overlooked and
we really need to take a close Look at Nez Perce as kt approaches no1 only this
property but the Lake Lucy street that ks kn there because a Lot'of the people
want to go south go down to Kerber. Run Kerber through to~n and head out on TH
5 and Nez Perce bekng one of the ckty's most understandard streets, we'need to
21
City Council Meeting - November [9, 1990
Look at that. That is kind of an aside. It doesn't really, shouldn't have a
Lot of effect but In any improvements I would think to Nez Perce, we also have
to look at the but for issue. If it wasn't but for the developments at the end
of Nez Perce, Nez Perce would still be an all right street for those few people
that Lived on it but for the increased traffic coming from this area, we may
want to do an aerial assessment and say it's your houses that are causing more
of the problem on Nez Perce so therefore you get to share the cost of, or your
Lots tn this case. it's just farm property. The cost of improvements to Nez
Perce. Who benefits from the widening of Nez Perce but that's almost another
Issue outside of this one but needs to be, that's a street that's been
overlooked too long now. As we build more we've got to get the connecting
Infrastructure going. The same thing with Peaceful Lane when Owens' property
develops but [ really think we've got to wait for Owens' property to develop to
do Peaceful Lane unless we can find some kind of montes to straighten up that
intersection somehow, it would be good to get that, at Least the western corner
of that squared off on Peaceful Lane. [ don't know how much it would cost but
Just to start solving some of the Peaceful Lane problems now rather than waiting
for Art Owens to get out of his bankruptcy and everything else which may take
years. It might be next week. Who knows? We thought this was going to be
years off before anything happened and Troendle's in here already. Many times
people will say we're not going to, you know they'll tell you what they're going
to do. You know the guy who lived behind me, he said they're going to carry me
out of my house feet first. Oon't worry about this ever being subdivided. He
now lives over near St. Hubert's and I've got 4 houses behind me. That was only
3 years after he said he was never going to move out. So when somebody tells me
that it's going to be years before this is actually built, economics change next
week and they look good. I don't think all options have been totally explored
on the variance. I do not like granting variances. I do see the logic of the
argument that the placement of the road did not take into consideration the
continuation of the road which was a mistake. You know we really stuck out
blinders on and hit that property line and we stopped looking, ge approved a
road that really creates the variance situation. But I do believe that Mr.
Seddor and everybody was completely involved. Everybody, the Troendle people
and 8eddor were involved in Vineland Forest. They were in here talking a lot
and I think that the purchase of that next lot over could solve the problem. I
know Mr. Seddor doesn't want that lot over but it does solve his problems as far
as being able to then change that road slightly.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion from Council?
Jules Smtth: There are a couple things. One, I might mention on that barn
thing and we're trying Just to accommodate Mr. TroendLe. We would be certainly,
we would put something on a record. Contract with the City on record that that
property cannot get a butlding permit or it can't do anyth£ng unless that barn
ls removed after Mr. Troendle ls. Let me rephrase that.
Councilman ,lohnson: Yeah, we know what you mean.
Jules Smith: The only other thing I would mention is that like all real estate
today, we have a contract with Mr. Troendle to buy his property and give him a
life estate, he doesn't want to Leave his property, for as long as he Is on that
property. His Life estate is a determinable Life estate. If he has to leave
with no prospect of coming back, and we have to go to court to show that.
22
City Council Heetlng - November 19, 1990
That's the only way. You'd have to get a court order on that. Then his life
estate terminates. So we have sade a deal with Hr. Troendle that we will buy
his property and we will give him that life estate. Obviously in this day and
age you don't buy property unless you know you can do something with It which is
why we have the condition tn our contract that this is subject to municipal
approval in order to plat the property. So from that point of view, from Hr.
Troendle's point of view I would, I don't want you to rush Into any action but
would not. I would prefer from his point of view not to put It off for a year.
I would like to see it keep rolling you know but we would certainly be willing
to do some legal document which we could do very easily to guarantee that
nothing could happen on that property as long as Hr. TroendIe was there,
otherw£se we'd have to tear the barn down. It would never be used by us.
Hayor Chmiel: What I'm thinking right now 3ules is I'm considering, and I don't
know the balance of the Council's position but I'm looking to possibly table
this to Oecember tOth. Seeing what staff can pull together in reference to both
roads and also the friendly condemnation portion because we don't have those
answers either.
Jules Smith: I don't have a real problem with that but I got the Impression we
were talking about next year.
Mayor Chmlel: Oh no. No, no. I was Just bringing up the fact that talktng
construction, it wasn't going to start for possibly 18 months or whatever.
gules Smtth: ! was Just concerned we'l! keep working on It.
Mayor Chm[e[: Right. I'm not proposing to drop it right now and say come back
when you're ready. No.
Councilwoman Oiale'r: I will second the Mayor's motion to table this until
December tOth.
Councilman ~orkman: Can ! comment quick because ! think 3ay had a valid point.
When ¥tneland first came in, and this picture's kind of the other way. #hen we
talked about that and we didn't expect that. That hasn't been going real fast.
We didn't expect this to come but my biggest concerns were Nez Perce and so
these people are suggesting that,-Mr. Barks Is saying that they're coming out
there. I believe that but I always believed that Nez Perce #ouZd be the way to
go tf people were coming downtown and that is a very, very dangerous situation.
So as a part of this can we get that looked at also? This Isn't a huge amount
of houses to be coming out onto anything ! guess unless Vineland really went and
deve[oped quickly too but I think Nez Perce is also going to get it. Not to
belittle. I don't know, the people that live right tn that little tight area
there, you're going to either hit a tree or something. I don't know. I get
nervous everytIae ! go through there which Isn't that often.
Mayor Chmie[: Okay. That's another comment to note Paul as wel[.
Councilman 3ohnson: Ae long as we're dolng comments during a tabling action but
as far as the practicality of a notice that or a contract that says that we will
not do anything here. How that gets filed with the city. This would be the
only one. This would be a singular document that has to be somehow filed tn our
23
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
building department against this piece of land that could be found 5-10 years
from now that tells us this has to happen. How exactly the building inspector
finds that or anything, I just don't think we have a system within the City
designed to do that.
Mayor Chmlel: I thlnk you probably have to do that through the County. The
County Recorder as part of that parcel.
Jules Smtth: Either that or there's a development contract right now.
Councilman Johnson: But does the building inspector see every?
Mayor Chmlel: He doesn't but you'd also have to have clarification within the
City as well.
Jules Smlth: But the polnt ls, anybody who would buy that lot would be on
notice that they can't do anything.
Mayor Chmlel: That's rlght.
Councilman Johnson: It doesn't mean they won't. We see that ail the time.
Ilayor Chm~el moved, Council#oman Oimler seconded to table Subd$vlston 41~0-15 for
the Troendle Additton unt11 the December 10, ~990 Ctty Counct! meeting for
further revtew by staff. A11 voted In favor and the motion carried unanlmously.
CONSZDER TRAFF/C CONTROL FOR klEST 78TH STREET THROUGH PO#NTOWN. PRESENTR.TZON BY
CONSULTANT.
Councilman Workman: We haven't received the full report yet on this?
Gary Warren: No. Part of the process that we are, Council is aware I think
that we've been going through, we've made you aware at least at the prevlous
meeting, that Stragar has been hired through the HRA to basically take a look at
the downtown street segment from Great Plains to and Including Powers Blvd. to
give us some thoughts as we entertain new developments such as Market Square and
we also obviously hard pressed to take a look at the West 78th Street alignment
as It related to the now defunct proposal for Target. So it's ktnd of grown as
an off shoot of that lnltlal thrust plus the Hanus property proposals that we
looked at with Brad Johnson. We're in the process of completing a report with
Stragar for us whlch we hope to brlng back here, actually vla the HRA slnce they
actually contracted for this. We wanted to brlng some of their preliminary
thoughts to the forefront here for Council revtew and any further input you can
give us before we do f£nal£ze the report. SO with us tonight is Oennis Eyler
from Stragar who I guess wtll start off the presentation.
Dennis Eyler: Thanks Gary. It's a pleasure to be here Mr. Mayor and members of
the Counct1. It's really our first effort in Chanhassen thaLI'm aware of. I've
been with the firm of Stragar-Roscoe-Fausch for about 7 years. Before that I
was with the Minnesota Department of Transportation In the Golden Valley office
and my experience tn Chanhassen ts putting up a couple of traffic stgnaIs in at
TH 5 at CE 17, TH 101 and at CR 16 so I am somewhat famtllar wlth...
24
City Council Heating - November 19, 1990
(There was a tape change at this point in Hr. Eyler's presentation.)
Oennis Eyler: ...and save the City of Chanhassen a little time and a little
money in the long run and make sure we didn't move on parallel paths and find
out they weren't actually parallel. We looked at the Hetropolitan Council's
model which ts a, it's kind of a metropolitan system's model. It's good at
predicting volumes on roads like TH 5 and to some extent TH 101 but when you get
down to an area like the City of Chanhassen and the downtown area, it starts to
fall apart. For one thing the zones that are land use-zones that the
Hetropolitan Council's model has and there were only 4 I believe for the
downtown area and some of those straddled 78th Street. and they mixed
residential property in with commercial property'so one of our first processes
was to fine tune the Hetropolitan Council's model by taking a window out of that
model which essentially went from Powers on the west, south of TH S, north of
downtown and east of CRl& to try to get the traffic that's coming into the
downtown area. Including what's on TH S. And then we went down and got the
Individual proposed land use data from Paul and Gary and looked at what was
likely to occur in some of these developments including the Burdtck property
which ts pretty well set as far as it's form and some general land use based on
acreages and what the land use guiding ts for the other properties and we've now
completed a small area study with some forecast volumes and we're going back and
recalibrattng the Hetropolttan model so that the City has that as a tool to
evaluate future land use. But more to tonight's subject, what ramifications
does this Increase traffic with the development have on 78th Street and what are
the problems out on 78th Street today and-what sort of things can we do to
mitigate some of those problems. With that I'll turn it over to Hike Lewis
who's done the specific analysis work on 78th Street. Hike is a recent addition
to our fire. Prior to joining us he was with the air Force and he's kind of an
In-house consultant to the air Force. The air Force has to operate like a
developer whenever they do any expansion at bases and things of that nature plus
he's done work for other governmental agencies. Hike has taken a detail look
and he's got a transparency presentation he'd like to go through, and feel free
to stop us at any time and ask any questions. Like I say, we're here on a
discovery mission as well as Information.
Hike Lewis: What I'd like to discuss this evening is basically what's happening
on 78th Street today. We did some traffic counts and you eight have seen our
tube laying out on the roadway here the last couple weeks. The...you see there
are 24 hour counts. How many cars are passing the roadway section during one 24
hour period and that gives you some idea of the traffic out there now. In
traffic engineering a majority of the time we're interested in what happens
within the highest volume hour of the day and for Chanhassen and 78th Street we
found that highest hour to happen in the evening peak hour about 5:00 to &:O0.
and of course you can understand that. People get off of work and head for home
and the volumes you see there are volumes going in each direction. You see the
highest volume in that area is 871 vehicles. That's right before Laredo. and
with the count, what we can do is we can have some Idea of what the capacity of
the roadway is. The capacity of the roadway Is the vehicle carrying
capabilities of the roadway or intersection. We can assign a capacity or level
of service to roadways or signaled or unsignallzed intersections. This slide
you see here is just kind of a brief summary of what level of service means.
Level of service is a range from A to F. A with being the beet. F being the
worst and level of service E that you see, that ts the level that is considered
2S
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
capacity. For a roadway section it's generally looked at as, if traffic was
just to be able to free flow on the roadway, what speed would that be and then
as it drops down then it's assigned a level of service from there on. So the
slower you go on the road, the lower your level of service. For a signalized
intersection, that's based on amount of delay, the average delay a driver can
expect at an intersection. Level of service C is the average driver will have
about 24 seconds maximum. For an unsignalized intersection, that deals more
with the movements themselves. Not most necessarily entire intersection as a
whole. For our study we looked at all the major intersections and we found the
level of services, next slide please? On the major street everything functions
just fine. The left tut. ns are at the lowest one is D which is still above
capacity. However, when you get onto the minor streets, the side streets, the
level of service as you can see drops off quite a bit and I think the lowest
level of service is F and the highest one is C. Now this is an indication of a
possibility of a signal warrant being met. That signal warrant would be the
amount of delay that a driver would experience and I'll get into that · little
bit later on in here. As far as the roadway capabilities, we see 78th Street
now as functioning at right about the meximum amount of traffic it can handle.
The 870 vehicles you see in one lane going one direction, that's about the
maximum number of vehicles that it can handle. Generally for a roadway such as
78th Street, we look at someplace between 600 and 800 vehicles in an hour as
being the maximum amount. One question we were asked is what type of truck
traffic can be expected on 78th Street. Normally for a business district, a
volume of about 4~ heavy truck traffic and the 18 wheeler type thing which means
that you'd see 35 18 wheel vehicles go down 78th Street in an hour and !
sincerely doubt you'd see that. You might see maybe 4 or 5 during a peak hour
at that.
Dennis Eyler= What Mike was getting at there is typically in the Metropolitan
area, arterial street systems we find 4~ commercial. We obviously don't find on
78th Street. ! think it's mainly because of the access to many sources using...
is pretty well served by TH 5 so you do have a good supporting surrounding
street network that pulls that traffic off your downtown area. We recently
completed some studies in some outlying communities like in Alexandria you do
see truck traffic but you wouldn't see that here because...TH 5.
Mayor Chmiel: Outing the period of time that this was taken, would that include
the trucks that are using 78th Street going off to Market Blvd.?
Councilman Johnson: DOT's construction trucks?
Gary Warren: The dates that your tubes were out, we had talked about that
because we had Schafer Construction also doing some work in the downtown and the
conclusion was that when the tubes are put out, the technicians are looking for
any pecularities in like detouring or anything else that would give you a wrong
reading and we concluded that that was not the case. The date that the counts
were taken, it was atypical to what we would expect. You're talking about
5chafer's trucks running?
Mayor Chmiel: ! remember when those tubes were down and ! believe that Schafer
was on 78th Street at that particular time.
City Council HeetIng - November [9, [990
Gary Warren: We did a follow-up to get more detatl on Harket intersection and
I don't recall exactly what the day was. Your memory may be better than mine on
that but it was only on that Harket further detour we were getting but you
didn't think that you had anything peculiar for that day that would have tipped
us off.
Mike Lewis: No. See the 4~ that I was quoting there, that's a typical number.
The tube counts out there, all they would have done is it ~ould registered those
trucks as another vehicle on the road. It wouldn't have said well, here's a
truck eD it increases the volume. It's Just another vehicle on the road.
Dennis Eyler: The reason we're bringing this up is the issue that you mentioned
with 78th Street and their ability to accommodate truck traffic. 'The large
volume that we took, very large trucks are non~existent here. That doesn't mean
that there aren't...trucks.
Mayor Chmiel: Right. And the point I'm trying to make Is maybe that 871 is an
inflated number because of those trucks using that access.
Gary Warren: The 871 was actually westbound traffic though west of Great Plains
wasn't It?
Councilman Johnson= Yeah. The trucks weren't in that area.
Gary Warren= The trucks wouldn't be there.
Mayor Chmtel: You're talking Laredo?
Hike Lewis= In the earlier slide, each one of those lines with the two arrows
is location of counts and it would pick up traffic just past that point.
Councilman Workman: We don't have one for West 78th and Kerber?
Councilman Johnson= Yeah.
Hike Lewis: Yes. Oh, no. On Kerber Blvd., no.
Councilman Johnson: He wants to know the intersection of Kerber. I want to
know what was the rating, capacity rating of the Laredo intersection and Kerber
intersection on that other chart that you Just took off.
Hike Lewis: No, we did not pick up traffic counts at Kerber. One thing I have
to caution us on is that these turning movements are based on a computer
generated turning movement. We had not had time yet to go out and actually take
turning movement counts. We will in the future but for the purposes of planning
and for what we're doing for the presentation this evening, the computer
generated turning movements are pretty accurate.
Councilman Johnson: What are the F's?
Mike Lewis: The F's?
Councilman Johnson: Yeah. What streets? ge can't read It from here.
27
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
Mike Lewis: Oh, okay.
Councilman Workman: Laredo.
Dennis Eyler: 5outhbound left turn from Laredo onto eastbound 78th Street is an
F. The other one is 78th and Great Plains. That's the westbound left turn.
Councilman Workman: But are we going to get some counts for Kerber?
Oennis Eyler: Yes. We're scheduling manual counts for all those-intersections
next week. That's one of the final phases of doing calibrations. We had an
opportunity to do the machine counts. We Just haven't had the opportunity to do
the manual counts. They're very labor intensive and we've just been trying to
organize the people to get out there and do [t all on the same day if possible.
That way we don't lose cars from one count to the next counting on the same day.
And these are based on kind of standard turning movements...but what the level
of service at stop signs will indicate is a lack of gaps. That's really what it
says. That there are inadequate number of gaps for traffic to move out of there
safely and the gaps are determined for each movement. R rlght turn on the
roadway requires a smaller gap than for example a cross movement or a left turn.
Actually a right turn however creates more of a cross movement because you have
to accelerate Into traffic but a left turn is really...
Counci[man Workman: We[! the reason I bring up Kerber, that's my intersection.
Jay's is Laredo and it's not there so I'm yaaah. 8ut I would say that, and
Laredo is maybe a little bit less than this but [ would say 95X of the people
coming down Kerber take a left at 78th and then the accelerated speed and
everything else.
Councilman Johnson: I'd agree with Laredo.
Dennis Eyler: Yeah, that seems to be the definite travel pattern. Everything
from the north drains down 78th and heads east and eventually comes south to
TH 5 or continues on into town. You don't need turning counts to see that.
That's just the normal pattern of the city.
Mike Lewis: Okay, moving on. The next item that we looked at is the type of
traffic control that exists at the intersections today. Right now all the
intersections are two way stop and the stop control's on the minor leg. The
existing traffic warrants signals at two intersections during the peak hour
period. That's at Laredo and 78th and Great Plains and 78th. The Unlform
Manual on Traffic Control Devices has established 11 signal warrants. These
warrants deal with traffic volume, delay experience, school crossings, access.
Many d£fferent things and what we've done is to look at what the volumes are out
there and those are the only two intersections at this time that warrant a
traffic signal. The other intersections just do not have enough traffic on the
side streets.
Councilman Johnson= But you haven't done Kerber yet?
Hike Lewis: No sir, we have not.
Mayor Chmtel: Clarify your traffic signal as to red, yellow, green?
28
City Council Heeting - November
Hike Lewis: Yes.
Hayor Chmiel: Okay. What's the potential of just using stop signs at these
specific intersections? Having 4 way stops versus.
Hike Lewis: A 4 way stop will help the minor street traffic get out into the
intersection and on the roadway. However, what it does is have a tendency to
release one vehicle at even intervals which further down the road does not
create good gaps for other traffic to enter, h 4 way stop generally is looked
at in instances where you have a minimum volume of 500 vehicles on all 4
approaches entering an intersection during one consecutive 8 hour period. So
that gives you some idea of how much traffic you really need before you need the
4 way stop warrant in the... For that reason we do not recommend the use of 4
way stops at any of these intersections here.
Dennis Eyler: To clarify that. That's on a permanent basis. One of the
warrants for a 4 way stop ie that you have the intention of eventually setting
up a signal. Until such time as you do that... To further follow-up what Hike
is saying, the 4 way stops do solve the problem at a given intersection as far
as getting traffic out onto the highway but u~ual[y at the expense of another
downstream intersection. So if you're going to do that, you want to make sure
that that intersection that you picked for a 4 way stop makes some sense from a
roadway system standpoint. That that is the focal point of the problem area.
So that the immediate adjacent intersections were now suffering from lack of gas
because of the metering effect of'~'the stop signs. You tend to select alternate
routes to get over to that intersection and also use the stop sign. So you
really have to have some maybe parallel routes if that's going to be the Interim
solution. On the other hand, a traffic signal at the right location can. create
gaps downstream depending on how it's timed. Of course they're very expensive.
They're a long term commitment to maintenance and operations. It's always a big
hurdle for the city to get it's first signal that they own and somebody is going
to maintain it.
Councilman Workman: and they're ugly.
Dennis Eyler= Rnd Kerber, or I mean excuse me, Laredo with the volumes that are
there is certainly probably a good insulation for a 4 way stop for an interim
but with the idea that it is going to cause some problems someplace else. The
evening volumes that we show here show 432 going away which presumably would
reverse somewhat in the morning and be 432 going south so you do have roughly
maybe a 2=1, 3:1 ratio there so you're really on the fringe of having
Justification for a 4 way stop. 4 way stops are not cheap for the motorist
either. They require everybody to stop whereas a traffic signal there's...
requires something less than everybody stopping so there are some hidden costs
for the 4 way stop. There's some noise and air pollution issues too and
back-ups. The only single lane approach is on 78th Street and may get some
back-ups at certain times of the day. We haven't done any sort of a cueing
analysis or back-up analysis of what a 4 way stop on Laredo would mean to
driveways for example east of Laredo on 78th Street. That's an issue that
should be possibly visited before a decision for a stop sign. Hake sure that
they're not going to typically back up and block some driveways. I'm not
sure...
29
City Council Meeting - November ig, 1990
Hike Lewis: One item we did notice while we're driving up and down the roads is
that there lsa need for striping to be reacoomplished on the roadways. The
white line that separates the left turning lane from the thru lanes along with
the turning arrows that are in those lanes, they don't meet the HUTCO Standards.
The turning arrow is way too small and it's not shaped in the proper dimensions.
Those are all items that should be done to help the driver along with for
instance at the intersection of Great Plains and ?8th. You come up to that and
it's difficult to know whether there's a left turn lane or right turn lane.
Paint on the ground is one of the cheapest ways of helping the driver understand
what's at the intersection.
Mayor Chmiel: Funny, we just discussed that today didn't we?
Hike Lewis: The next item that we went into is that of the geometrics of the
lnterseotions. What Dennls has put up here lsa turntng path guidelines of a
bus at the intersection of Great Plains and 78th Street. And as you can see,
the bus ls outlined or it's colored there In orange and It enoroaches on top of
the median right there so one of our recommendations ts that that medlan be cut
back about 12-15 feet. You can make that turn with a slngle unlt truok. A
stngle unit truck is the UPS truck you see running up and down the roadways.
However, anythtng larger than that is going to have to swtng wlde. Swing out
into the oncoming traffic in order to make the turn. That is not generally an
accepted practice in traffic engineering. It does have some liabilities
Involved with it and it's something the city should consider cutting back in the
future.
Councilman Johnson: If you cut that backwards, what about the people coming out
and making, coming the other direction and making a turn left that way if they
have to stop 15 foot further back?
Hlke Lewis: No. They would not have to stop 15 feet to the back. Instead of
puttlng a raised island, you could put paint on the ground.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, and then they're going to park on top of the
paint and the bus goes over the tip of their car lnstead of the tip of the
island.
Mike Lewis: Well, those are always things.
Councilman Johnson: Since we have the head of our bus commission sitting here.
Mike Lewis: Those are always things that could happen but we kind of rely a
little bit on driver, let's be friendly neighbors out there and if the bus sees
that he's golng to run over the oar in front of him, maybe he'll let him go
ahead.
Gary Warren: I think you're also suggesting that we, in order to accomplish the
turn is that we shave the one side but you could still maintain most of the
dimension on the westbound side so that you still could provide that landmark
for them.
Mike Lewis: That could be done also.
3O
City Council Heating - November 19, 1990
Dennis Eyler: The edge along here could st111 reeatn. You could pul! a
southbound left turning vehicle all the way up to here without [t being, aa long
aa tt stayed right on the palnt, would be there without any problem. The reason
why we were asked to look at this Is we understand that this Intersect[on ks the
topic of conversation within the city.
Councilman Johnson: That's a polite way to say lt.
Dennis Eyler: Well, ['va had a number of occasions to work with landscape
arch[tecta [n doing some street layouts and ay personal philosophy La the
landscape arch[tecta ought to confer with the traffic engineers because !
certainly wouldn't want to tell thee how many trees to plant so [ think it's a
two edge sword and some[lees architects sees, ! don't kno~ If there are any tn
the room or not but arch[tecta sees to have bigger than average egos sometimes
so it's a sensitive issue and ! understand that aesthetics are important too.
We think that one of the things going on here with the operations that eaybe
there's just one too many things going on that the driver has to keep track of
at this intersect[on. [f you look at [t froe any one aspect, the sight distance
although there are objects in the median and some other things going on, that [n
itself is not really the problem. The volumes themselves are probably not
really the problem el[her. The geoeetrlca while they're perfectly acceptable
for a car and tight for a larger vehicles. The problem there ts that most
people who drive cars on streets, they're driving on streets that were designed
for trucks. They're not driving on roadways that were deslgnsd for cars so the
average driver's come to expect geometrlcs that were designed for trucks even
though himself is a car. A good example of a roadway designed strictly for cars
ks a parking ramp. Those are negotiated at very slow speeds and are very tight.
So the driver out here ks faced with having to keep track of several different
things. It's trying to find a gap. He's got to look through a little clutter.
He's distracted somewhat maybe by the traffic at the intersection and he's also
got to worry about hitting the curbs. Rnd all three of those things together I
think have added up to provide the discomfort level that you find when you drive
through there. I don't know If eventual signalization of this, that will
certainly solve the gap select[on problem and Improve the safety but whether
that [n Itself is the total answer to your. I'm a little blt he~ttant to tell
somebody to tear out something that was Just put [na few years ago but when the
volumes are right on the border and we'll get Into further what that means up
and down 78th Street. We've looked at the west end where that proposed shopping
center ks going at that point tn time. Ultimately the capacity here ts going to
be a problem when you get to the year 2010 but when that date arrives, between
now and then is the...over the hill. That's the number we're still looking at
and we're going to try to tls up the land use and we'll bring that up later.
Hike Lewis: as you see with that, we took the same process throughout all the
other insect[one and we found for the most part that, as [ sa[d, a single unit
truck can make the turns without any difficulties. However, anything larger
than that you're going to have to swing thee wide or kind of take [n and make a
swing, a U turn type swing in the intersection to sake left turns.
Oennis Eyler: Old we check, we checked Laredo?
Hike Lewis: Yes. We looked at Laredo in particular~'~nd'ran the bus through
there and a bus can sake that turn but it's going to have to be a slow turn and
City Council Heeting - November 19, 1990
he's going to have to suing wide to make rights and kind of swing wide in the
intersection to make lefts. We used the bus because we didn't have a train
templet that resembled a firetruck but we looked at it as if a bus can make it,
then a firetruck sure can also. We also Looked at using the turning movements
that were generated by the computer, what type of turning lanes would be needed
and we found that a right turn leg on the west leg at 78th Street at Laredo
would be beneficial. ! think there's 200 and some turns there in the evening
peak hour. A right and left turn at 78th and Powers. However I understand that
this has already been incorporated into the designs that are going on now which
will be very beneficial and also depending on the phasing and the timing at the
signal when it's installed. The left turning lane there on 78th probably should
be extended about another 70 feet to allow for adequate storage capacity for
left turn vehicles so they don't back up out into the thru lanes and disrupt
traffic.
Councilman Johnson: Is that future or present?
Hike Lewis: That is something that probably should be done in the future. As [
was going to.
Councilman Johnson: I mean it's based on future volumes?
Hlke Lewis: No sir. It's based on present volumes. However, for us to rush
out there and do that, I wouldn't recommend It right now because flrst of all we
don't have actual turning movement counts. We have a reliable source of
information but there's nothlng like really going out there and looklng at what
is exactly happening.
Councilman Johnson: Because I've never seen that happen. I've never seen them
back up into it as of yet.
Hlke Lewts: You probably won't. The signal would create that more than the
existing traffic now.
Dennls Eyler: That's wlth the traffic signal.
Hike Lewis: The signal stops traffic and then those cues start to happen.
Gary Warren: The overall thought here to as we point out in the staff report is
that we've got some stgnflcant modifications that are going to happen in the
next 2 years to these traffic patterns with the TH 10! north leg Improvements
and such so our direction to Stragar was to give us their impressions at this
time but we wanted to be pretty conservative about what really you would commit
yourself to doing. I mean this is good discussion but I think we always want to
keep that In mlnd what's going to happen with that north leg traffic.
Hike Lewis: Another item we were asked to look at is what would happen if a
vehicle stalled on ?8th Street. We soaled from the drawings the dlstance of
about 13 feet lane width. This means that if you have, depending on what the
stalled vehicle is. If it's a truck who's average width is 8 foot and then a
Cadillac comes up behind him who's average width is about 7 feet, he's not going
to make it through. 8 1/2 and 7 is 15 1/2 feet. That does not quite squeeze
through the L3 foot lane. However, to rush out there again and widen the
32
City Council Meeting - November [9, 19~0
roadway just to meet an occurrence that might happen, oh ! don't know, 3 or 4
times throughout the winter, ! don't know If Lt really is money well ~pent. We
were also asked to look at the visibility. We drove up and down the road
several times and we really didn't see anything that stuck out aea visibility
problem. However, I would recommend that we do the same thing come springtime
when there are leaves on the trees and visibility might become a problem.
Alright, then this is a summary slide of the recommendations that we would have.
I want to reiterate again that nothing out there Is es serious that the Council
needs to make plans to change things-tomorrow. We're at that point where we
have to take a very close look at the situation a_od 'monitor it very closely but
I don't think action is required tomorrow mornI~g. Some of our recommendations
would be to widen 78th Street to 4 lanes from Great Plains all the way out to
Kerber and then continue that on out to Po~ers Blvd. which I believe the plans
do anyway. You want to make sure that we monitor the volumes and their delays
at the intersections to make certain that we keep up with anything that might
change to warrant a signal. You want.to stripe in accordance with the MUTCD.
Dennis Eyler: Let me stop him right there. That's the Manual of Uniform
Traffic Control Devices. That's the HUTCD.
Mike Lewis: Coming from the Air Force, you know everything ts an acronym, yes.
Councilman Wing: I missed that first recommendation. From Great Plains?
Mike Lewis: From Great Plains out to Kerber.
Councilman Wing: You're recommending?
Mike Lewis= 4 lanes. Yes sir.
Gary Warren: Ultimately.
Mike Lewis: ULtimately. Not tomorrow morning but ultimately.
Councilman Wing: Alright but you're recommending that someday that's going to
be removed ts your recommendation?
Hike Lewis: As the traffic volumes grow you're going to find that It's going to
be so difficult for traffic to get out Into, to Just make a right turn Into the
stream of traffic that you're going to have to go to 4 lanes.
Gary Warren: That even with north, the modIftcatione to north T~ 1017
Hike Lewis: Yes. Yes It Is. Rs construct[on takes place, efforts should be
made to Increase the corner radius to a minimum of 35-45 feet. Right now they
look Like they're right around 25-30 feet. Rs OennIs was saying, drivers expect
to drive on roadways designed to accommodate large trucks and their radius are
generally about 50 feet or greater. Also you should cone[der cutting back the
center line medians. This would open up the Intersection more. Give the driver
a more open feeling and also accommodate left turn vehicles better, and as we
showed up there to cut back the center median on 78th and Great Plains. Rndwe
should also re-evaluate the sight distance during the springtime. Now to move
Into someahat our work with the future traffic. We did look at what ~ould
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
happen with the relocation of TH lOi and Great Plains Blvd. and ! think there's
a slide in there. According to the Carver County study, traffic volumes are
going to drop from 1988 to the year 20i0 by about 43~ on that section there
that's highlighted in orange on 78th Street. I believe that's between
Great Plains and Kerber.
Dennis Eyler: Let's stop here. We don't agree with that. That's out of the,
that's based on the Metropolitan Counc£1's model which was used by the Carver
County study. And again it's done at a regional level. It's looking at roads
from a regional standpoint and what the Metropolitan Council's done with land
use is they take a look at the overall metropolitan growth and they apply it
uniformily across the whole Twin Cities area. They say if the area is going to
grow by 2g to 3~ a year. They don't want to get into calling which suburb is
going to have the growth so they imply that on a general basis around the whole
outer rim suburbs and if you believe every suburb's growth rates, well the
metropolitan area would double in kO years but on the other hand, you have to
know the particular area and what the likelihood of what's going on there. Now
one of the things we're going to do is we're not going to try to tie this to a
particular year. When we get into our final list of recommendations and
prioritizing recommendations, we're going to try to tie them specifically to
development levels. When something comes on line as far as land use, what
ramifications does that have. We have done similar exercise with the city of
Minnetonka for their development proposals for the 394 area. They looked at 3
different growth scenarios and they actually have an ordinance that budgets
traffic generation by the developers. A developer comes in and his proposal
tries to exceed the allocation of traffic for that site, then he's going to hay
a very difficult time getting that through. He's got to make mitigation or
maybe he can team up with somebody else who's going to put a warehouse someplace
that isn't going to generate the traffic so we want to tie the future needs to
the expected levels of development and not try to call a particular year because
that way if things accelerate you know when you're talking about the things you
delayed...
Mike Lewis: As Denny was saying, these numbers we don't necessarily agree with.
Just applying some estimates and some quick math, we fee! that approximately
1,100 vehicles that are down TH $ there where it says $1,&00. That is going to
be, that section of roadway will be over capacity by about 1,100 vehicles.
Dennis Eyler: At least.
Mike Lewls: At least and those are some conservative estimates. Those 1,100
vehicles are going to find another place to go and it will probably be 78th
Street so you add those numbers together and we feel that at a minimum there's
going to be about 1,750 vehicles in the year 2010 on 78th Street which Is quite
a blt more than what is shown here. Something Z have to point out ts those
numbers don't quite jive with what's shown there because those are AOT, average
daily traffic counts where I'm talking from a PM peak hour.
Gary Warren: Also you'll recall that when we gave the approval to the TN 5
plans recently, about 2 meetings ago, that we also notlfted HnOot that we were
concerned about the 50,000 to 60,000 ADT in that segment and asked them to
respond to us with what in the future might have to be done. We haven't
obviously received that yet but we recognized that at that time. That premeates
34
City Counc£L Heetlng - November ~9, ~990
throughout the Carver County study ts that with under capacity tn TH 10! and the
other major arterials, It puts the pressure on our Local systems.
Dennis EyLer: Typically a 4 lane divided roadway, the type that HnOot operates
with traffic signals on a half mile spacing and ful! channeLLzatlon at the
intersections. 35,000-4S,000 ADT ts about the maxtmtum that you'd want to have.
Just as an example, TH L2 in front of RtdgedaLe prior to the 394 construction
was carrying around 45,000 care a day... TH 7 Just west-df 4~4 ! believe it's
In the 40,000 range right now so-we're talking about numbers 10,000 a day
greater than that so you definitely are at the extreme limits of the capacity of
a 4 Lane roadway. Whether HnOot's proposing & Lanes In here or something
else...I don't know. As gary was saying, the likelihood Is that certain tripe
that may have come down TN LO! and Jumped onto TH S and gone down this way...
cross TH 5 and not use TH S. On the other hand, you don't want to try to wall
yourselves off too much or break up your o~n street pattern. The Idea of having
a good city street network is to allow your residents to make trips that are
entirely within Chanhassen on Chanhassen streets and not have to depend on trunk
highway system during those times of the day when It ts over capacity. It'd
reaLLy be mean for somebody to make a 3 mile trip to the store to have to use
TH 5 Just for half a mile and wind up facing severe congestion so you want to
provide a route that's okay for your traffic but It doesn't draw traffic off
of TH 5. It's a tough balancing act. It's really the purpose of a minor
arterial system In the city.
Paul Krauss: If ! can Interject two comments. ALong the lines of the minor
arterial system, for those of you who have been foLLowing the Comp PLan, which
ts really aLL of you, you'LL notice that we see that &,O00 number going across
there. That's a frontage road system that's being proposed by the. Comprehensive
Plan. /t's being proposed on both sides of TH 5. The exact purpose of that
to Intercept trips from within our community and aLL<rd thee to get do#ntown or
wherever they have to go without going onto TH S so we've got that In mind too.
I also don't, I'd prefer that you didn't start casting too much doubt on the
Eastern Carver County Study when we say that we suspect, we have suspicions
about one or two of the numbers In that study. The Eastern Carver County study
was an areawtde study. Zt was designed to deal with the major arterlal and
coLLector routes, gary and I pushed that study a Little blt to give us some
handles on what was going on tn downte~n Chanhassen. The study wasn't
specificaLLy designed to give us accurate or the nth degree lnforeatlo'h on 78th
Street. That's why we've retained Stragar-Roscoe. Zt was designed to give us
an overaLL analysis of where we should Look at major problems occurring and we
think the numbers on TH 5 and on the more major highways are a fairly accurate
representations of the magnitude of what could occur but we are asking thee to
give better definition for our 1ocs! street
N£ke Lewis: That's a good point.
Dennis EyLer: The way the model operates, tt really ts based on traveled speeds
and It tends to try to take the path of Lea~t reststence without Looking at
capacity sometimes. You can go in and fine tune the model and have the capacity
restraint but the model as It exists In It's pure fora In the Met CounciL's
computers ts Just a bunch of pads. Just a bunch of networks and they have tripe
generated by Land use and they have formulas for how they distribute out and
they go on the shortest path traveled and the htgh~ays of course are going to
~S
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
have the highest speeds so this may be a little bit optimistic in the fact that
the capacities are going to be there if we don't provide it. [ mean you may
never see 51,000. There may be a demand for 51,000 but the road may never
physically take it and where that traffic would go then is on your streets.
Councilman Wing: Certainly faster.
Oenn£s Eyler: It could become the point where it's faster to be on city
streets. We're working with MnDot on 35W right now doing the EIS for 35W out of
downtown Minneapolis and some of the alternatLves that are being proposed for
35W are really a no build alternatives. They're just fixing the roadway up as
it stands and the traffic ts expected to double in some sections of 35W,
particularly tn the southern end. Where's that traffic go? The freeway's full
so it goes in the city streets or It's trips that aren't made and then there's
economic stagnation. That's the other price I guess you have to pay.
Oary Warren: That 51,000 is a capacity restraint number. The Eastern Carver
County study did run both versions and the capacity restraint. I think the
unrestricted was like 63,000 so they did take a look at I think a pretty
realistic number at least as far as TN 5 was concerned.
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe we can just continue.
Mike Lewls: Okay, one final point before we leave this mysterious topic ls that
with the numbers that we're talking about, the traffic signal at Great Plains
and 78th, along with the 4 lane cross section would st111 be warranted. One
last thing we want to talk about is the impact on the Market Square shopping
center development. As this sllde shows, you can expect approximately 317 trips
coming into the shopping center and then 330 trips leaving the shopping center
durlng the PM peak hour. What we did then was took these trlps and assigned
them to the roadway and the intersections to try to come up with some idea of
what's going to happen at the intersection of Market and 78th Street. What we
found is that that intersection falls short of making the peak hour warrant by
about 30 vehicles. Alright, that's not to say that we just throw our arms up
and say well a signal's not warranted. We'll forget it. I think that what will
happen Is that wlth the background growth, that being the amount of trafftc that
grows naturally, even without the development plus the traffic that will be
generated by the development itself, that a slgnal wlll be warranted by the time
it's opening up In approxlmately a year.
Oennls Eyler: Of course the warrants themselves don't dictate that a signal
should be installed. They just mean that at that point it's an option.
Mike Lewis: It's recommended, yes.
Councilman Johnson: If a signal goes in at that location, what does that do to
Laredo? Will that provlde the gaps and everything?
Mike Lewis: It would help yes.
Councilman Johnson: Laredo will not longer warrant a signal withtn half a block
of each other?
36
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
Hike Lewis: No. To say It would not warrant a signal, we can't do that because
the volumes would theoretical[y still be there. It's just that the time period
might shift by a couple minutes but you're still going to have the volume
capacity at that point that /ntersects Laredo so a signal would still be
warranted.
Hayor Chmtel: That's the synchronization that you pull together on.
Oennis Eyler: Yeah. These become kind of systeas of management decis/ons of
how you want your street systems to operate. You have a little sore luxury than
to delay the installation of a s/gna[ there but that doesn't preclude you from
doing that. There are other issues involved wlth the operation of that
Intersection. When I was with MnOot we had a priority system that we looked at
intersections that needed signals and tried to prioritize when ~e Installed
those and one of the things we discounted was the fact that a signal in the
immediate vicinity provided gaps but that's, the technical warrants would still
be met there.
Hike Lewis: On a preliminary basis the modeling that ~e've done so far shows
that signals w£ll be warranted at all intersections along 78th In the year
along with a 4 lane section be warranted all the way out to Powers Blvd. and
believe that's all [ have to say. [ think Oenny has a few other ~ords to bring
you up to speed on what our program
Dennis Eyler: Our next step Is to make the manual counts including the count at
Kerber and to finish calibrating the model and then to provide a list of all the
recommendations and to try to, not try. We will tie those to the levels of
development so that you can then see that when a certain percentage of the city
gets developed, as these properties come on line, then you'd be a certain need
level for these improvements. I believe that's it. Z'll respond to any
questions. We've taken a lot of your time and we really appreciate this
dialogue because tt helps us to get a feel for the City of Chanhassen. Thank
you.
..
Hayor Chmiel: ! don't know if there'S any questions. ! think you've covered
pretty fully.
Councilman 3ohnson: ! have one comment. ! haven't heard an~hing about stop
signs at St. Hubert's Intersection there by the shopping center and everything.
Is that in your model for the futures? When TH 101 gets taken off of West 78th
Street, one of the objectives of a lot of people Is to put the stop signs back
up that used to be there In order to give trafftc at that Intersection a little
better chance.
Dennis Eyler: That's east of?
Gary ~arren: You talking about Great Plains and?
Councilman Johnson: Great Plains and West 78th where the old City Hall is and
St. Hubert's church. The intersection there.
Dennis Eyler: We haven't specifically had that in the model but that's no
problem to add that. We certainly will. Since we're going to be doing some
37
City Council Meeting - November 19, ~990
follo~-up.
Councilman 3ohnson: See part of BRW's original design included slowing down
traffic in that area ahich made it quicker to get doan to TH 5 versus going
through there and keeping people on the main street instead of and heading
towards TH 5.
Dennis Eyler: Understanding the improvements that are proposed for the east end
of town with TH lO1 going straight down to TN S, I guess I ~ould try that first
and see if, it's always better to work with a carrot rather than a stick. Try
to make a good route to attract people doan to TH 5 and then ahen TH S starts to
get over loaded and then you start finding that there is additional traffic on
78th Street, that might be the time to put that in as a traffic management tool.
I guess as an operations tool, if there is a problem with that intersection of
it's own, I don't see that that being the case. The volumes there are not that
great on the side street but we can certainly thro~ that in as another node that
~e're analyzing. It's not a'big deal at this point. We're still at the fine
tuning point. That's certainly a fine tuning option.
Councilman Johnson: That's something that's been considered a lot. A Lot of
attention a few years ago.
Mayor Chmiel: Appreciate your presentation.
Dennis Eyler: Okay, thank you.
ADOPTION OF FINAL STUDY FOR PARK AND RIQE LOTS IB_ T~E CITIES OF CHANHASSEN,
CHASKA ANO EDEN PRIARIE. SOUTHWEST METRO.
Paul Krauss: Very briefly Mr. Mayor, the Southwest Metro has prepared a park
and ride study that I've given you copies of on previous occasions. They've
asked that the city formally adopt it basically as a policy recommendation for
them to operate on in the future. You probably are also aware that we're
looking to work with Southwest Metro on establishing and relocating a park and
ride on Bowling Alley Lane or whatever that street is called in the future and
we'll be coming to the Planning Commission and you with that early next year.
The Planning Commission reviewed this study formally on November 7th and
recommended approval of that study. We are recommending that the Council adopt
the final draft of the park and ride study with the comments that I provided to
Southwest Metro previously. Basically my comments support the study and the
locations for the park and rides in Chanhassen. They raised some question as to
~here and ahen it's appropriate to look at traffic management strategies that I
think we're all going to have to look at. I think it ~as good that they put it
before us. I just didn't feel that it belonged in a bus mass transit study.
With that we are recommending that the Council approve or adopt the park and
ride study and Oiane Harbertz, the new Oirector for Southaest Metro is here
tonight.
Mayor Chmiel: Paul, as I look at this, I know that we had approved the
relocation for the bus stop but has this been given back to NRA for them to
review the balance of this7
38
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
Paul Krauss: The ent/re study no. The possibility of the relocated.~top on
Bow[Lng Al[my, yes. We didn't have a presentation before thee. They
indicated, well they desire to work with th/s. We have not yet gotten the plans
completed. We'll be coming back before the HRa and the Planning Commission and
ultimately you for the specific plans and financial arrangements of how
easements might be transferred and whatever else.
Mayor Chmlel: I think maybe we should also Just make them aware of the fact as
to what's here for the future as well.
Councilman Workman: #ell ! noticed that ay train depot 1des ts kind of lost.
Mayor ChaleL: It went off the track right?
Councilman 3ohnson: What train depot?
Councilman Workman: That's an HRR thing. It's very complicated.
Councilman Johnson: The old depot out here?
Councilman Workman: Yeah. I thought we should use the, Gerhardt's laughing
because he kind of deep &'d it but we should be getting a piece of our heritage
back into downtown with that depot and make that the depot. The b~s depot.
Councilwoman Dlmler: That's what I said the other day.
Councilman Johnson: The bus shelter?
Councilman Workman: Yeah.
Councilman Johnson: It has some problems of visibility that you want at bus
shelters as far as, because It has to be open all the way around.
Councilman Workman: Well we can open tt up. You new comers to the County. You
want to...
Councilman Johnson: But there's also another point that the Commission ts
currently taking up and we've approved a modification to our By-Laws which I
think Oiane can probably explain it better than I can.
Diane Harbertz: Good evening. I'm Diane Harbertz and I'm the transit
administrator for Southwest Hetro Translt and what 3ay ~s referring to ts that
I'm working with Paul and his staff and probably at your next Council meeting
you wi1! be considering to approve per the authorization of the Southwest Hetro
Commission to consider authorizing the commission to be able to purchase real
estate and passenger buses without coming back to each Councl! for every piece
of property, and as you can see In the park and ride study, there's probably an
inventory of 12-15-16 different sites. Currently the 3D/mt Powers Agreement ts
arltten that the commission must come before each Council for every parcel of
land that's purchased. This was authorized by the Commission to come back to
each Council and ask thee to reconsider that and give the commission
authorization to enter Into purchase agreements without havtng to come back to
each Council but ultimately the City in which that particular land parcel is
39
City Council Meeting - November l~, 19~0
located would have the final approval in terms of the selection and development
of the site.
Councilman Johnson: Currently there's a, in their Joint Powers Agreement, the
ability for one city to blackball any purchase. All 3 cities have to agree.
Diane Harbertz: Each time.
Councilman Johnson: Each time anything, any cahital thing is purchased by the
commission and in forming 4 years ago, 3 years ago, in forming the commission
there was a little mistrust between the communities ! think that put this thing
in there. This gave effectively us the opportunity to say no. He don't want
Chaska to have a park and ride lot so we can blackball Cheeks out of a park and
ride lot. I don't think that was, so we're modifying, trying to modify the
3oint Powers Agreement to be a little more reasonable and flexible and part of
it is that anything approved in this approved park and ride lot, that we can go
ahead without any permission from any city and enter into a purchase agreement
for it. Of course all zoning would have to be applied for. We have to apply
for every permit as any developer would.
Paul Krauss: If I could Just add. Oiane's presented me with the language on
that. I haven't had a chance to read the final language but you're not being
asked to act on that tonight.
Mayor Chmiel: Right. We understand.
Councilwoman Oimler: In regards to, I do like the study and I thought that
Paul's comments were good and I just wanted to ask you Paul if you thought that,
did they incorporate your comments or was this. Your pages didn't correlate
with this study that I got. That's why I'm asking the question.
Paul Krauss: There were some changes made to the original draft from the
document that you have now. It still includes some of that TOM language that's
been toned down somewhat. I guess I'm comfortable with the way it sits right
now. What I've done or taken the liberties of doing, the Comp Plan draft has
this study and the Eastern Carver County study attached to our transportation
plan as appendencies and I've also included my comments to this study in the
Comp Plan so all that will be forwarded onto the Metro Council. I've also
talked to Roger Gustafson, the County Engineer and under the auspices of the
Eastern Carver County Study, which is an ongoing program that we see the
communities really, we've got a good working relationship, transportation is an
ongoing thing and we want to carry this forward. One of the things that I think
this group needs to do on a group basis is look at transportation management
strategies. They're really progressive things to do. They're things that we're
going to need to do if we're going to deal with. It's the only control you have
to reduce the volumes of traffic on TH 5 or whatever. My only concern is that
the proper way of doing it is to sell it to the business community. Get them
involved with us in that and then do it on a mult£-community~ multi-county
basis. If we take the high road, if you will, and do it ourselves, you know
they'll just go down the road to Chaska with the same requirements on it. I
think that Southwest Metro understood that and in fact some of those same
concerns were echoed I think by Eden Prairie and Chaska as well.
4O
City Counc£1 Meeting - November 19,
Councilwoman Oimler: Okay, so you feel that this adequately addresses your
concerns?
Mayor Chmtel: Yeah. I would, as I look at a lot of this too, I'd like to see
somehow that we tie tn with some of our larger companies to see tf we can
eliminate many of their employees Ln oomlng directions from whichever depending
upon what we serve to tie with the Southwest Hetro. To see Lf there Is that
probability of eliminating that kind of traffic going either east or west. North
or south. Either direction. Somehow find those transportation needs to
accommodate some of these people. I think that's a goal that I think we should
really strive for to alleviate the problem of air pollution as well.
Oiane Harbertz: I think that's a point well taken. One of our goals in 1991 is
to address that very issue with the employer-employee travel options program.
You know one thing to remember as each of the cities, basically you hold the
cards. You deal them to the private Individual. To the commercial. To
whatever in terms of how your transportation network system is going to be in
place. Southwest Metro is there to operate within that structure that you
provide so I think with the cooperation we're seeing from each of the three
cities as well as the pr~gresaive goals and obJect~ves that each city together
and under the Joint Powers Agreement is trying to achieve, I think you'll see
some better strives to improve that transit network. Just tonight with the
development in some area of 8.73 acres that you'll add 15 home stte~ and the
average car per home ts 2.3 cars per home. You know that's 30 oars right there.
They're starting from somewhere and they're going somewhere. That's where
transit comes in.
Councilwoman Olmler: I move approval of the report.
Mayor Chmiel: Is there a second?
Councilman Workman: Second.
CounolX~oean D/eler moved, Councilman IJorlman seconded to adopt the flea1 draft
of the Park and Ride Study for Soutimemt tletro Transit with comments addressing
the study as noted In the ee~o dated ~ugust 21, 1990 by the Plann/ng D/rector,
Paul Krauss. A11 voted in favor and the motion carrlnd unanJ~otmly.
councilman I~orkman: Let me ask a qulck question. Richard and ! were talktng a
little blt about the financing and the budget and tt might be helpful to get
maybe a copy of a budget and of how Southwest Metro operates. I~here they
receive their funds.
Councilman Johnson: Oh, okay. That'd be real simple. On your property tax you
pay to the RTB. Part of your property tax.
Councilman Workman: Met Council?
Councilman Johnson: Met Council, RTB, whatever, a regional transit board gets
the money. They give us as a Southwest Metro, up to 90~ of the taxes collected
from Chanhaasen, Chaska and Eden Prairie to operate our own bus system. Our own
transit system.
41
City Council Meeting - November i9, 1990
Councilman Workman: But it comes through the RTB right?
Councilman Johnson: It comes through the RTB. The RTB retains at least lO~ of
it and whatever we do not finance. I think 2 years ago we spent about &S~ of
it, of what the MTC would have gotten if they were continuing it and we gave
considerably more service at &5~. Or 65~ or 85~. I think we're getting with
the increase cost of the contracting and increase fuel cost and everything else,
we're going to be real close to the 90~ in 1991 of utilizing those taxes. We've
added a dial-a-ride and a lot of other services that weren't here before.
CounoiIman Workman: But it would be nice to see a detaiied budget.
CounciIman Johnson: Oh yeah. We get a monthIy. They have a very good budget
on t heir.
Councilman Workman: No, I don't doubt that. I've never seen one.
Diane Harbertz: For 1991 we just submitted our grant application to the
Regional Transit Board. We're undergoing negotiations and ! would say probably
within the next 30 days we would have available then a finalized budget which
will be presented to each of the Southwest Metro Commission members and in turn
can be brought back to each of the City Councils. So appreciate the request and
the interest.
Councilman Workman: We have to count on these guys to do that?
Councilwoman Oimler: You bet you.
Diane Harbertz: Well, we'll send you a special copy.
Councilman Johnson: Our staff also gets. Jo Ann's our staff representative
right?
Paul Krauss: Sharmln's been appointed.
Councilman Johnson: Sharm£n is now. So staff gets a copy of all this too.
Dlane Harbertz: ! think tn the past Southwest has been operating at about &S~
of the levy that's available and tn 1991, right now we've got 91~ of it tied up
so we'll see what we can negotiate wlth the RTB. Basically any of the funding
that's not used for instance the 65~ and the 90~ cap that Jay mas talking about,
basically gets turned back to the Reglonal Translt Board so with the Park and
Rlde study that you have before you and with your approval, we're able to
basically recapture those funds and put them back 1nrc the $ city area.
Councilman Johnson: We've been helping finance transportation throughout the
rest of the metropolitan area for too long.
Diane Harbertz: For 1990 we'll turn back about $400,000.00.
Mayor Chmlel: Good. Does that answer your question?
Councilman Workman: I still would like a copy of the budget.
42
City Council Heetlng - November 19, 1990
Diane Harbertz: Alright. We'll see that each of the Councilmembers gets one.
Councilman Workman: We can't depend on these guys or staff.
Diane Harbertz: Thank you.
ESTNILISH UTILZTY RRTES FOR SURF~ WRTER HII~IRGEHENT UTZLZTY.
Gary Warren: Do you need a presentation?
Mayor chmtel: No. Just a brief discussion.
Gary Warren: Basically we have reviewed the position once again from the last
meeting where this Item was presented and at that time we had a split vote I
guess between the &OX and IOOX funding. We tried to ! guess recapitulate here
some of the key elements that have related to staff's Interest tn seeing that
the fund ts funded at the 100~ level. Specifically I guess it comes down to the
point of adequately funding the utility as such that the proceeds are there to
be able to implement the programs which we anticipate to come out of the
original planning document such as the water quality plan and the Chapter 509
plan. We're talking about a 72 cents difference per month for residential
single family from the &O~ scenario to the 100~ funding scenario and back up
basically for the various options lnbetween that Is Included tn the attached
staff report. So that's where I think we left off the last time.
Mayor ChmIel: Okay, thank you. We were at a stalemate. Now that we have 5.
Gary Warren: Didn't have a swing vote last time.
Councilman 3ohnson: Richard's tossed in the center now.
Mayor ChmIel: I think everyone Is aware and I know Richard sat at the previous
meetings that we've had on this so he's not coming tn cold. I would like to
entertain a motion for either or.
Councilman 3ohnson: Compromise?
Hayor ChmIel: Let's hear a motion.
Councilman 3ohnson: Here's my compromise motion here. What we ended up as a
compromise a second time. I'd like to move we fund at 80~ plus any revenues
from the Redmond sale.
Councilman Workman: Pardon me?
Councilman Johnson: 80~ as 80~ of what we're looking here. It's halfway
between Oon's &O and my 100. 80~ financing and on top of that, the monies from
the sale to Redmond of that wetland are put into the fund. That's in addition
to the 80~. I'm saying I'm wIl[tng to compromise.
Hayor Chmtel: Okay. There's a motion on the floor with 80~. Can you do that?
43
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
Councilman Workman: Do we have to earmark that Redmond money for this? Have we
agreed on that?
Councilman Johnson: No. We haven't agreed to anything to do with the Redmond
money.
Councilman Workman: Can that go into the general fund?
Don Ashworth: It could go to general. It could go, I would push for the
Environmental Protection Fund. Puttlng it tn there. We do levy for that. The
budget, I was going to push for that side.
Councilman Workman: How much money are we talking about?
Councilman Johnson: $85,000.00.
Councilman Workman: That would cover our raises. ! know Mr. Mason is pushing
hard for ra£ses.
Councilman Johnson: The U.S. Congress made sure that our salartes went down
next year, not up. Your take home wlll go down.
Mayor Chmtel: Okay, we have a motion on the floor. Is there a second?
Councilman Workman: I guess I like that 1des. However, I ftnd the 80X with the
Redmond, well I'm not sure what that adds up to. Does that add up to more
money?
Councilman Johnson: I think it hlts about the $100,000.00.
Councilman Workman: Does the 80~ mean we're coming up with how much less?
What's 80~ of 1.? mlllion?
Gary Warren: 80~ would be approximately $285,000.00.
Councilman Johnson: $o we'd still be $200,000.00 below the 100~ so we're not
even maktng 100~ with it. My reasoning ts that what we're doing with the
Redmond property was compromising on an environmental lssue so It should go 1nrc
an environmental fund, not the general fund. That we're selling a wetland and
we're allowing, whlch In turn then allows more Impervious surface in the city.
Therefore more runoff. Therefore the money from that sale should go into
handling runoff. That's ...logic.
Mayor Chmtel: I agree with that to a point Jay. Yeah, that's logical but also
if you have a deflclt some of those dollars should be directed to taking care of
some of that portion as well of which we're running into.
Councilman Workman: I'll second It for discussion.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. ~ny other discussion?
Councilman Workman: Yeah, I guess I feel 80, 60, or 80 with the Redmond, I feel
they're all fairly arbitrary. When we're getting away from the lOOt and as I
44
City Council Meeting - November ~9, ~990
stated before, we've agreed on this plan and so now we're kind of trying to
figure out how and where to finance it. I don't have a whole lot of imperical
evidence other than what staff has given me. So for me to go up and say &O or
80 w£th the Redmond, it makes less sense than the 100 at this point-other than
you know, because ! don't understand. I guess ! don't understand the 60-80
concept other than it's just a basic lowball and so yeah. I guess I don't know
how this will end up. I'm willing to, I guess I'm not happy with the 80 either.
I'm not happy with the 100. Let's face it, I don't want to spend the money but
again, lmpertcally I don't understand where the &O or the 80 or anything would
come other than maybe the ~00~ and then that's of course where you get into the
lack of maybe details and the whole project that make people nervous about the
~00 which I am too but that's the only impertcal evidence I have.
Mayor Chmtel: Okay.
Councilman Johnson: I'd prefer the 100 but I'm willing to compromise.
Councilman 3ohnaon eovod, Councilman ~orkean seconded to establish ut///ty rate~
for Surface eater ~anagement Utility at the 80~ level and tnclud/ng the proceeds
from the sale of the ~etland property to Redmond. Counclleana 3ohnaon and
#orkean voted In favor. The re~t opposed and the motion fa//ed ,tth a uote of 2
to 3.
Mayor Chmiel: We need another motion.
Councilwoman Dtmler: I move a &O~.
Mayor Chmiel: Do you /nclude Redmond's Into it of another $85,000.007
Councilwoman Oimler: I guess I'll accept that, yeah.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion? All those in favor say aye.
Councilman Workman: Was there a second?
Mayor Chmlel: I seconded it.
Resolution ~90-149: Councilwoman O~ler moved, ~ayor thais1 ~econded to
establish utility rates for Surface ~ater ~nageeent Utll/ty at the 60~ 1eve!
and including the proceeds from the ~ale of the ~etland property to Redmond.
Rll voted in fauor except Councilman 3ohn~on ,ho oppo~-and Councilman ~orkean
who ~as silent. The motion carried ,1th a vote of 4 to '1.'
APPROgE REVISED MRTER UTILZTY RRTE SCHEDULE.
Don Rshworth: I told Tom Chaffee he could go ahead and go home. Hopefully
getting his foot up so I hope that I understand totally what is presented before
you. We had gone through a process wherein we tried to look at increasing of
utility rate. First of all utility rates haven't been Increased since 1986.
Secondly, we have been attempting to find ways tn which to potentially
discourage water useage during the summer peak periods. We continue to take and
have higher than desired useage during those timeframes. So again we had
originally looked at it and based each individual's bill trying to set up a
45
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
standard and if you use more than you had used the previous year, you'd be
billed for that. Council really didn't like that idea. Would rather Just see a
flat fee occur which is what Tom presented on this one. He came through and he
found averages depending on median or noon of 22,000 to 26,000 gallons. He
applied that then or basically said alright, let's use anything over 25,000
gallons per quarter would represent higher than normal useage. We applied the
dollar 30 to that so we established a base rate of $1.10. That's up from the
current rate but not significantly. Then add the kicker in then .hen you start
going over the 25,000 gallons. He additionally added, and this is in response
to Hetro Council's decision, or not decision but at least, they recently billed
us for sanitary sewer for this next year. That is going to increase by, .hat
uae it Gary? $60,000.00-$70,000.00. Our monthly payment will be $47,000.00.
Represents an increase of $162,000.00 for the year. It's Just the increase of
$162,000.00. When we moved into this whole process it .as based on Deloitte's
recommendations that your utility system is currently losing money. That they
would highly recommend a rate increase and kind of that had started the process
in concert with the desire to somehow curb .ater useage during the summer
months. The recap of .hat all of this .ill do is in the back page and shows
that the cumulative affect would be approximately a 15~ increase for both the
sewer and water changes that are being recommended.
Mayor Chmiei: Combination of both?
Don Ashworth: Correct.
Mayor Chmiel: Discussion?
Councilman Johnson: ! don't think that a 20 cent per thousand gallon increase
is going to discourage any watering of lawns. Especially when you get it on a
quarterly basis. If somebody does lO,O00 gallons, that's a .hole $2.00 increase
in a quarter and nobody's going to, very few people I know, I do know a few that
might slow down due to a $2.00 increase per quarter but not that many.
Don Ashuorth: You're probably right but again staff was kind of losing
direction as to ho. Council .anted us to proceed. ~re we looking at just a
straight percent increase or are we looking at some monitor increase that's
going to target the .ater useage so ! guess we came back to this approach.
Councilman Johnson: I think for PR purposes and everything, ue can say we've
got the t,o tiered and that ,e're doing this you know but in reality it's not
going to be doing a lot of discouragement. $2.00 or $4.00 per quarter is not
going to discourage anybody a whole lot but it does make for good press that
we're being so proactive.
Mayor Chmiel: Well, I think a lot of our people uithin the community are
becoming more and more aware of the fact of cutting back on the useage of water
to be on a conservative basis uith it. ! noticed even within my own area and
our neighborhood. A lot of us have our own wells but yet those that don't have
not been watering their lawns per se as much as they had in the past. Taking
that into view, [ think it's something that .e have to credit our people .ith
doing basically themselves without imposing a further restriction on them than
what you'd be suggesting to go beyond what staff has come up with.
46
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
Councilman Johnson: No, I'm not saying go any higher because I don't think it
makes that much difference. I'd rather Just see one flat rate or what staff's
recommending here is fine too. I'm Just saying that I don't think It's going to
make a whole lot of difference in water useage.
Mayor Chmiel: No.
Councilman Johnson: But it does establish a trend for us.
Mayor Chm£el: True.
Councilman Workman: Because it pays for the bills.
Councilman Johnson: That's the main thing. Whatever we do we have to Increase
the rates to the point that we pay our bills. That's a given.
Councilman Workman: This fund is running a deficit Isn't It?
Don ashworth: Yes. According to Deloitte, the biggest item is really in terms
of depreciation associated with that and I guess tn some ways I question whether
or not that Is fully necessary but the fact is that Moody's believes that it's
highly Important. They Look at the continuous bracket around our utility fund
numbers and they question it. The citizen gets the newspaper when we do an end
of year accounting and It shows the fund balances and it shows a bracket around
the utility fund. They question that. Maybe they look at tt and they say, you
know the City Is In the hole. We're running a deficit. We are.
Councilman Johnson: We shouldn't.
Councilman Workman: Well I'd move approval If we're looking for that.
Mayor Chmtel: Is there a second?
Councilwoman Oimler: I'lL second that.
Resolution 190-150: CouncJ/ean eorkman moved, Councilwoman Dialer seconded to
adopt the resolution eatabl~shing the revim~d Huniclpal Se~er and Mater Rates.
all voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Mayor Chmiel: I think It's something that we really do have to do. It's not a
big money maker for us but It's also one where we're still coming out In the
black rather than the red.
COUNCIL PRESENTRTZONS: NONE.
ADMINISTI~TIVE PRESENTRTXONS:
Mayor ChmIeL: Paul, you had two Items you'd like to discuss.
Paul Krauss: Yes Mr. Mayor. Talking about the Eastern Carver County Study. One
of the things they wanted to do is to have a meeting of the collective bod[es
and Planning Commissions for the agencies that participated In this study.
Roger Gustafson was trying to find a date and we tried to get it manuevered
.47
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
around your schedule but apparently unavoidably the meeting was scheduled for
December lOth. Now we were going to tell the Planning Commission about it and
they may be able to go but I talked to Roger about it. He said what Chaska is
doing is, I don't know what it costs. I think it's fairly nominal, to have the
consultant come in and talk to you directly and Roger would be w£lling to come
down there as well. What I'd like to do, especially because we obviously can't
be there on the loth is to go ahead and schedule either at a regular meeting or
a special meeting in January, having the consultant and Roger come and give a
presentation to you and the Planning Commission of an Eastern Carver County
study. I think tonight you got a glimmer of how important that study can be.
And wlth your approval we'll go ahead and set that up for January.
Councilman Johnson: When is Chaska doing it by themselves?
Paul Krauss: In January.
Councilman Johnson: Why don't we look at doing it jointly wlth Chaska?
Paul Krauss: We could ask but I was under the impression that Chaska wanted to
do their own.
Mayor Chmlel: I would thlnk that they probably do and I think it'd probably be
to our best interest to sit back and revtew ours as well.
Gary Warren: There's certainly enough meat in that report to have a focus here
just on our own community.
Councilman Workman: Are we golng to see those reports?
Gary Warren: We have copies avatlabZe right now.
Paul Krauss: Yeah, I have them sitting in a crate in my office. I just wanted
to give them to you sometime to tie it together with something else.
Councilman Workman: Can I get one please?
Paul Krauss: Sure.
Councilwoman Dlmler: Me too.
Hayor Chmiel: I suggest that you do that Paul. Set it up accordingly with
Roger. Have him come in and glve us that presentation. Your seoond item?
Paul Krauss: The second item concerns the comprehensive plan. As you're aware,
we held the publlc hearlng in I guess it was October. It appeared to have gone
fatrly well. The comments were generally fairly reasonable and the Planntng
Commission approved, or recommended approval. Sent it onto you wtth very minor
changes. At the meeting we indicated that we would try to get it on your agenda
in December and I thlnk we need to do that for continuity sake but there's
another reason that's recently cropped as well tn that there may be some
turnover in Metro Councll representatives. Our representative's term is up and
several others that we're been working with. I think it would behoove everybody
if posslble if we could set up a jolnt meetlng between you and the Plannlng
48
City Council Heettng - November 19, 1990
Commission and advertise that as your review of the comp plan. If It's possible
to get it out of the Council and to the Hetro Council this year, Z think It
would be beneficial to do that. If you're Interested in doing that, you know
we're juggling a whole lot of dates this time of year between budget and
everything else. The only dates that seem to work were Oecember 4th whlch is a
Tuesday. December Sth which ts a Wednesday..The 13th which is a Thursday or
one of the better possibilities say be the 12th which is a Wednesday, a regular
planning Commission meeting but our agendas are very light lately and the
Planning Commission will be here anyway and if you're going to be here on the
12th, what we could do is Just end the Planning Commission meeting early or
reschedule thee and then you can change chairs and have it be a Councll meeting
if we advertise It as such and we'll Inform the neighbors and the newspapers and
what not. You know I think It's Important that the Planning Commission be there
to present it to you and they can possibly answer some questions that you may
have on it. Again we also have a mailing list and we would notify the residents
we've been notifying throughout the process that you'd be hearing it.
Councilwoman Dimler: Can you tell me why the rush that it has to be done this
year?
Paul Krauss: The question of continuity. I mean we've been having hearings on
this since the spring. Over the early summer we had our neighborhood meetings.
We then went a couple of months without, you know before we went to the final
swing on this thing In getting the plan out. We had our meeting in October.
There's a lot of people out there waiting for decisions to be made. One way or
the other. I've been putting people off for literally a year in terms of going
to the Hetro Council or coming to you with Individual recommendations. The
Hetro Council can take up to 90 days and they could ask for more time so getting
it from you to the Hetro Council ts only one of the steps that needs to be done.
Hopefully, I'm hopeful that if we can get it to the Hetro Council very early
January, that by the spring of ~99! that the plan could be formally adopted. In
place and people can make decis£ons about their property. As I ~ndicated too,
I'm also concerned that there might be turnover in Hetro Council representation
that we have and other representatives that I've worked with for a while.
Harcy's term ts up for one and several other people's terms are up in January
and what I've heard is that they probably wouldn't be replaced until Hatch or
April, if they are replaced. The Hetro Council is a political body. You know
you hate to start all over again with somebody else tf you have to do that. If
we have to we will.
Councilwoman Otmler: I'm Just thinking Oeceeber's a terrible month. You know
people are planning vacations and are gone.
Paul Krauss: We would give enough notice.
Councilwoman Olmler: I'd hate to be accused of holding it at a time when nobody
could be there.
Councilman Johnson= Well, if It's early enough. I mean the 12th, people aren't
headed out for Christmas by the 12th. It could be Important to laintaln some of
the current people on the Council to get it approved before, wel! Harcy [eaves.
49
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
Councilwoman Oimler: But there's guarantee that they'll take it up anyway is
there?
Paul Krauss: Well, if we give it to them they have to take it up. They can't
just put it off ad infinitim. Their clock starts ticking as soon as we get it
on thelr desk. They can ask for more tlme.
Councilwoman Oimler: They can extend it 90 days you said.
Councilman Johnson: Who do they have to ask to extend the 90 days and who has
to approve that extension?
Paul Krauss: You. I wouldn't be, if it was still a highly, well I'm hopeful
you know, that it's not a highly controversial issue at this time.
Mayor Chmiel: It shouldn't be. I don't think it will be.
Councilman Johnson: I think the 12th sounds like the best.
Councilman Workman: Are you talking about the plan itself?
Paul Krauss: The plan itself, at least at the City's point of view. I mean if
we hold a meetlng on the 12th and if we have a lot of comment that needs to be
responded to, I think obviously I wouldn't, I mean I wouldn't ask and you
wouldn't pass it along at that point in time. You'd ask us to go back and do
some more work on it. 8ut if our meeting in October was evidence of the fact
that most of the questions for most of the people seemed to be answered, you
might want to look at quick passing it forward onto the Metro Council for those
reasons.
Councilman Johnson: I think we ought to do it the 12th.
Councilwoman Oimler: That is if we didn't make any changes?
Paul Krauss: Well, you can tell me to make some changes. I mean you can direct
us to make changes and then pass it along. We'd be happy to do that.
Councilman Workman: Well, and another concern if I were...sitting in the
audience, I would like to have an opportunity to, we're not taking it away from
Jay. I'd be anxlous to have a part of It and be a part of lt. So ! don't know.
That's another.
Councilman Johnson: But he can be.
Paul Krauss: We've already spoken, well we need to set up times where we're
spoken to Olck and to Mlke and try to set up, we're going to set up some
meetings wlth them to go through that and try to bring them up to speed. It's a
tough process. It's been going on for 2 years, to jell it down to a series of
meetings and I think Tom, as you probably found out, it's incredibly dull
reading to read through it but.
Councilman Workman: Well yeah and then the politics of Marcy Waritz and
everything, you know. You know if recall back, I was screaming and yelllng, hey
5O
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
why didn't I get onto this Waste Commission and I think I said ~t r~ght here.
I think I was of the wrong blood to get any kind of a nomination out of anybody.
I didn't hear a word and so that game ~s played and I'm not going to worry about
the cards fall where they fall and Marcy knows that better than anybody I'd say.
Councilman Johnson: I didn't get a word either and I'm not of the wrong blood.
So you and I got the exact same treatment.
Councilman Workman: All I'm saying ts that I could 11st dozens of exaiples of
where politics are played and.
Paul Krauss: Yeah, ~t'e not only the Council representation that may change
though because the Council chair is almost certainly to change and I know, I
think the Mayor and ! have talked w~th staff over there, te quite concerned that
it's go£ng to be different policies to operate under and you know, I can Just
see this thing snowballing to the fact that inertia overcomes them and they
become difficult or intractable to work with at all.
Councilman Johnson: But see Marcy ~s a citizen of Chanhassen and represents
many other towns within her d~strict. We may get somebody who's not a citizen
of Chanhassen to represent us in the future and Marcy's worked hard for us.
She's done a lot, and she w~ll continue to work hard to get this passed.
Councllian Workman: Oh, I don't doubt that. I don't doubt that but you
understand politics as well as Z do and as well as Marcy does.
Councilman Johnson= Yes.
Councilman Workman: And I can give you an example.
Councilman Johnson: She's not going to be there. I mean you know, the
governor's not going to, Governor Carlson's not going to reappoint her.
Councilman Workman: Well, I don't know that either.
Councilman Johnson: Probably not.
Mayor Chmtel: Well there are a certain amount of the oppomtte parties delegated
to carry on their existing areas provided there's satisfaction there. I know
that Tom says that ! was appointed to the Metropolitan Solid Waste Comilss[on
and I wrote down my party affiliation. ! was sort of surprised that I got It
but they do appoint a certain amount. Not too Iany but, you're right.
Councilman Workman: But yeah. I mean that's something that we don't have a lot
of control over and it's there. Why ignore it?
Mayor Chmiel: So. You're looking for some dLrect~on as to.
Paul Krauss: Right. As to which day.
Councilman Johnson: Well I move we have a meeting on the 12th,l everybody say
anything else.
51
City Council Meeting - November 19, 1990
Councilman Workman: December 12th?
Councilman Johnson: December 12th. The same as the Planning Commission night.
Mayor Chmiei: I don't think they're going to be able to move on that thing and
that's one of my major concerns. I don't think staff there will really be real
gung ho on it.
Councilman Johnson: They have 90 days.
Mayor Chmtel: And ['m just wondering with, as Ursula mentioned you know, the
fact that there's going to be people out of town for December. A lot of
scheduling accordingly. I don't want it to appear as though we're trylng to,
even though we've had a lot of discussions and a lot of meetings, the final
bounce comes right here. [ guess I want to make it available for everyone to be
here if there are some changes that they see or something that we can still
review that. [ guess I don't want to really push it.
Councilman Johnson: The i2th is what? 3 1/2 weeks from now. That's quite a bit
of notloe. To get the word out. The 12th ls 2 weeks before Christmas.
Counc£1woman Oimler: Let's face it, people are getting ready for the holidays.
It's the hollday party tlme. Hollday rush tlme. It's pretty tough to take out
a nlght to come and sit.
councilman Workman: I guess my only concern is the transition. Yeah, he can
have verbal but everybody can have verbal comment.
Paul Krauss: Whichever you wish. I mean we can set it up for January too.
I guess my concern again is that, whether it be Oecember or January, that we get
it to them sometime before. I mean if we get to it belng March or Rpr11, by the
time they get done with it the property owners will have lost a year ahtch I
don't think ls.
Councilwoman Oimler: If we get it to them by the end of January, I don't think
they'll act on it even if we get it to them in December.
Paul Krauss: That could have it done by May sometime.
Councilman Johnson: See it's well into the building season where if we do it
and we get it to the Met Couno11 first week of January, it could be.
Mayor Chmiel: 8ut there again Jay you don't know what they're going to do.
What they're going to set on lt.
Councilman Johnson: They have 90 days.
Mayor Chmlel: Yep, they do.
Councilman Johnson: If it's not approved in gO days, what happens?
Automatically approved?
Paul Krauss: They don't operate under the same laws everybody else does.
52
City Council Meeting - November
Mayor Chmiel: You've got that right.
Councilman Johnson: They have a 90 day restriction but they don't really follow
it?
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, they don't have to adhere to it and I'm almost sure of
that.
Councilwoman Oimler: That's why I'm saying they probably, I can't see them
rushing...to go out beyond what our anticipation would be.
Mayor Chmiel: How about January 9th then?
Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah. The first Council meeting in January.
Councilman Johnson: That's the first Planning Commission meeting in January is
January 9th.
Councilman Workman: Mike gets sworn in on January lath.
Don Ashworth: He can be sworn in anytime you had a public meeting.
Mayor Chmiei: How about Monday the 14th.
Councilman Johnson: His term of office begins the first business day of January
so he can be sworn in on the 2nd. He could be sworn in on the 2nd and sworn out
on the 3rd.
Paul Krauss: Would you want to schedule it on a regular Council night or on an
off night where that would be the only item?
Mayor Chmiel: That's a good question.
Don Ashworth: See, January 7th for example would be an off Council night rather
than the first regular on the 14th.
Mayor Chmiel: And then of course he could be sworn in. Okay, why don't we go
for that.
Paul Krauss: January 7th?
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah.
Paul Krauss: I'll tell the Planning Commission so they can be there.
Councilwoman Dimler: What did we decide?
Mayor Chmiel: January 7th. Is everybody in agreement with that?
Councilman Johnson: Does it take a motion to establish that?
Paul Krauss: No. It's not an official public hearing. That's been held so
it's just a meeting setting date.
City Council Meeting - November
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, January 7th. Comprehensive plan.
Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilman 3ohnson seconded to adjourn the meeting. All
voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting uss adjourned at 10=45 p.m..
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim