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1990 06 11CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING JUNE 11, 1990 Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILHEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Boyt, Councilman Workman and Councilman Johnson COUNCILMEHBERS ABSENT: Councilwoman Dlmler STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashuorth, Gary Warren, Paul Krauss, Roger Knutson, Jim Chaffee and Sharmln Al-Jaff APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the agenda amended to add the following under Councll Presentations: Councilman Workman wanted to dlscuss transportation related 1rems and Don Ashuorth bJanted to discuss a building on TH 5 for the Fire Department. All voted in favor of the agenda as amended and the motlon carrled. Councilman Johnson: As long as everybody's here, what day was that for Perpich coming in? Council. marl Workman: Southwest Corrldor Traneportatlon Coalition goes, who are promoting TH S and 212 have invited the Governor and Transportation Commissioner Levlne out to this area to say thanks for helping us with the highways thus far. We need more help obviousiy but for are to kind of rub elbows I guess with those people. It's going to be at MTS at 5:00 to 7:00. It's going to be a buffet dinner. I thlnk the cost is $?.00 or something. 5:00 to 7:00. It sounds like Lola wlll be there but an opportunity to talk a 11ttle blt about hlghways and transportation and those interested should RSVP to the Eden Prairie Chamber soon. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEHENTS= None. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendatlorls: a. Wetland Alteration Permlt Request to Alter a Class B Wetland, South of T~nadoona Drlve and West of Dogwood Road, Thomas Kordonowy. b. Preliminary Plat Approval to Subdivide 2.2 Acres lnto 2 Single Famlly Lots, ~65 Pleasant View Road, Robert Sathre. c. Extension of Final Plat Approval, Burdick Second Addition. g. Resolution ~O-G2: Approve Plans and Specifications for Sanitary Sewer Extension to Harvey/O'Brien Property; Authorize Advertising for Bids. j. Approval of Temporary Beer License for 4th of July Celebration, Chanhassen Rotary. £ity CoutrmciJ. Hcei..Lng -. J~tl~¢..,. ll, 19.90 1. Al~pr'ova]. of Account:;. m. City CounciZ M~n[~tes dated Hay J4, 1990 6.i.f), Cottnci. 1 M'i. rlutes dated M,~F 30, 1990 P,~i"k and R~,cr'eatiorl Commission Minutes dated Hay 21, 1990 o. Accept b<.',]~a~ion fi'om the Chaska Lions to the Park and Recreation Department. 611 voted in favor and the motion carried. K. APPROVE BUDGET AMENDMENT FOR COMPLETION OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. Pal.tl l<~-al, kss: As you're aware wre've been working quite intensive].y on completing t.h~:. Comprehel~siur: Plan for the City. It's been a process that's taken ;~pprox.i. mately 18 montl',:¢ to get to this point. I guess I should start out with the fact tlm~t the memo that you recelved in your packet lsa little outdated and ,~r, fortur,~tely you didn't get a copy oF the newer memo that should supercede that and I'll explain why in a minute. It's been clear f.o us for some tlme now that there weren't enough Fur, dirmg al].oc~ted to complete the Comprehensive Planning effo.rt. There's a number of .reasons for that. I've listed them in t[me report ,~r,d I think they're still accurate. The scope of the plan ls expanded cons~.derab].y. Not on].y slate we started the effort about 18 months ago but si,,ce I ca,ne here in the fall it's been quite clear that the magnitude of what tt~e Plan]~in9 Commission was considering was qulte great. I arrlved late in the bttdgeta~'y pro¢;ess ,~nd was really unable to irm[eract very much in terms of the a].l. ocatJ, ons. We've expanded our work efforts wlth traffic, transportation and h,~¥e contracted wifh our consultant working on the Eastern Carver County study to mak~ ~::ome spec.i, al runs for Chanhassen so we knew what the development would yeild. The Netropol. itan Council in the last month or so has come ou~ with some ve~'y strict gul(lellnes a;'~ ~o what they'll be looking for in the plan and I've l',~td ongoing discussions with them and it continues to get more involved frankly. TYme lar:t ii.~m is that time offlclal publlc hearlng process, I thlnk as you're aware, has just begun and there is a level of work ti'mat's tougf, ~o anticipate that comes out of those meetlngs because we basically have to back up. Look at a].ternatives. Come up with position papers, Give tfme Planning Commission infoYmation they need to proceed. The initial memo indicated that there was a f'~(IUeS[ for a~m ~dditional $10,000.00 allocation to compZete the p.t&n. Urmfoftunatley th,~t memo was d~-afted sometlme in February and was printed in H~rch ,~r,d w~s ~e~;e,- dispersed. Don c~nd I had ~lkod about it periodically and dncJ. ded not to submlt J.t at 'that ti. me. Since t[mat tlme the work effort has mxparmded quite a bit and there was a new memo that had been drafted for this packet thai..i.n(ticated that fe].t that we rmeeded approximately $25,000.00 to fin.i.~h the woFk effort. So I think the reasons are all still the same reasons but we've had the nnu uo~'k effort in the transportation area. The Metro Council is more recei~t armd the neighborhood Znteraction is more recent as well. We apologize '[o~' having serm'[ ottt the wrong memo but t~me correct amount that we belJ. eved that we needed to f~rmJ, sh the plan was $25,000.00. Wi. th t[mat I'd be Imappy to answer any questions Z can. Mayor Chmiel: Any questions? City Council Meeting - June 11, 1990 Resolution ~0-63: Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman 3ohnson seconded to approve a budget amendment for completion of the Comprehensive Plan in the amount of $25,000.00. All voted in favor and the motion carried. M. CITY COUNCIL MINUTES DATED APRIL 30, 1990. Councilman Boyt: You guys, I thought I was at that meeting. I know I've not been at a few of them but that one, I remembered all those topics when I went down through it. Mayor Chmiel: Were you in town? Councilman Boyt: I came in late and maybe that's how it happened but I would. Mayor Chmiet: I believe you're right. No, that's correct. Yep. Because I remember you coming in late. Councilman Johnson: So you want to change your absent to late? Councilman Boyt: I don't mind. I just wanted it marked that I was there. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the City Council Minutes dated April 30, 1990 amended to include Councilman Boyt as present. All voted in favor and the motion carried. N. APPROVE DEVELOPMENT CONTRACT FOR ZIMMERMAN FARM. Mayor Chmiel: Gary, do you want to clarify that? Gary Warren: Yes Mr. Mayor. Staff received some input from the developer's attorney here today and just a couple of quick items of clarification for the contract. Our development contract. One is that Tlm Foster should actually be shown as the developer in the contract instead of Peter and Deana Brandt. That ls consistent with the platting of the property which ls actually under Mr. roster's ownership. And where that applicant is referenced then through several of the conditions, it should be changed to developer. Also polnt of clarification which is consistent with our policies is that on page SP2, the paragraph following the cost of the public improvements should be added that, and I'll just quote here, at such time as the improvements are completed and have been accepted by the Clty, the securlty shall be released to the developer which is consistent with our policies after acceptance. Mayor Chmiel: I guess I just have one question. Tim Foster. Is that what it should be read as or ls it Timothy? Gary Warren: Timothy Foster should be shown as the developer. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any questions. Councilman Workman moved, Mayor Chmiel seconded to approve the Development Contract for Zimmerman Farm as amended by Gary Warren. All voted in favor and the motion carried. City C()urlc~ i4e,'.,tino - June 11> .%990 9ZSZTOR PRESENTATION: Jim Burdick~ See¢.;~g i't's Visitor Presentation, my neice from East Germany who c~l,e herr to see hos City Councils worked in America. Mayor £hm.lr;!: Welcome, .]Jm F, tird.i, ck. .T. al)p]-ec.i, ate this being passed on the Consent Agenda but I'd like lo c.l,'tr'~f? jt.::~;t onr3 :item. Every(hing is okay on, we were eue~ g.~.vel~ ~l~e ~runk ~;~;~¢e,- and this and ~h,~t and tl,ir, gs i,ad cha],ged and all of this. The staff and c:v,sfythlng i~.: ['[.r[e except the StaLe t~ants a t~alf[t',ol'afy easement while they're COI~Stf-LtC'f,~I~U TH 5 a~d t[~e~'e's something in the staff recommendation abottt this i. omporaFy e,zsement bo~n9 sho~n on lhe plat ~s 8 permar~ent e~semen(. I'd sure ialhc:r not show that. For of~:: thing i.t's kind of out in lhe alddle r,o~:ta9,:; si:,~n,m, is one. Numbr:r two is ~ttsl a tempot'al'y State e~sement and they told ~,e riley might u~nt to chef, ge it a bit depending on soil conditions and all and ~',, pet-Coolly willing 1:o agree [o give ,~n easement for storm water and to piti ~[t under this development contract and we're 9oin9 to replat this anyway. Z'v,~ agreed [o r~plat ~t .[n 2 years after the SI. rte has settled dour~ and knows exsc~.].y what they're taking. So I'd just like to have that .tittle modification (l~er~ cftei' ::~t',ouing LhJs temporary State easement. Actually you can't show teml',Oi-ai'y easement on a ,,>la( anyway I guess so it would have to Hayer chmie]: Who would like to address that. Pa,t]. K'ratt.,;s: Mr. Mayor, I think 'that you're aware. We're platting a property ir, advance of H~Dot ,1cq[~.iring the right--of--way ar,d the easements that they need fo,' Ti{ $. We would prefer to show all of those thil~gs up front. H'r. Burdick has .~ pr~b.tc~m w~.th that and ~hat we've agreed to do is instead of getting them Ltpfrof~t is r'equ~F~ that tl~e property be replatted after the condemnatior, goes th'rcugl~. ~nd that':¢ accaptab.l.~:: to us ar, d I think undei' ti,al same guideline we car, rr, odify contl~'[io~l ~ttmb~r 5. Right now it 'reads e~ter into a development contract [o require f-eplatting the property once condemnation of ~nBot right- o[--w;~y is complected. 9e could also add tl~e Hnbot drainage easement. That the plat be revised to refJ.ect both. I might add too in reading this, I guess I've got a fltrther col~cern in that the intent ~ith that condition was that there be ~o huildir, g permif, s issued until this is clarified because it's supposed to be cl¢,r~fied i~, r¢.laf, ively short order. ~hat ~e don'( want [o do or would prefer to Juoid ,'Jo~n9 ~.s h.tvil~9 cons~ructior~ o~] lots il~ the pending righ(--of-~ay ~hich ~ ~Jon'~ kno~,~¢ 6cf'y :qhat'o the schedule for the completion of ~hat? Gary War'r'~:n- iti'. l'layo'r', MnDot's schedule ~.he way it's been explained to me fei' t.']t]¢ arid po.,:;se:.-~sion of the property is ~ugtts'[ 23rd of this year. That's tile quick t~,.ke, proc:ess that .T understand that tl~ey're follow.lng on. Poilu( of c]afifi, calJor~ also on the r. asem~.',nt is that ~'[ is a permanent storm water di-,iJnage easel,~:zi~t t,~l'~ich curi-ently shows on the plat that HnBot is showing to movu. I've got no p'r'oblem wl[h w~'iting that in as a condit~ol~ of the de. vr~.lopmer, t contract that it be rep].aced at such k~me as it is actually moved. Thi:.s was c]ua'~' tt~at, and ~ think Mr. Burdick is in agreement with this that the propel'fy (Joes have.?, to provide &t's o~Ji-, stoi'm water retention pond to meet the cl'].~.e;-Ja c.f 'rul~off for th~-: development. ~e've got flexibility on where he wants (o ~,lacc ._I ,'~n the properly blt( We cio have to have a permanent easement Lt.lt~.matf:].y ~i',~:rever th;~. pending does occur. City Council Meeting - June 11, 19gO Mayor Chmiel: That I'm sure is something you can work out with Mr. Burdick to both satisfaction as far as that's concerned. Gary Warren: Rlght. The pond will not move until MnDot moves it and MnDot can't nlove it until they settle on the property issue with Mr. 8urdick so that mechanisnl fits well together with the development contract. So he'll be in to replat once the property iss~le is settled and then we'll have the easement replaced. Mayor Chmlel: And that was as we had our discussions with MnDot last week and in order to get all this pulled together we have to have this all done by the Aug~st. Gary Warren: Yeah, the lettlng date for the project ls June 27th of this year. Title and possession is August 23rd so they'll have some time there between lett].ng and award so it should all be wrapped up by the beginning of September would thLnk. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other visitor presentation? Councilman Workman: Do we need action on this? Mayor Chmiel: I think that's something that, Z don't know if we need action on that or not. Gary Warren: That condition probably ls modified. paul Krauss: Yeah, I think what you would really need to do I think is reconsider the action to modlfy the conditions. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Councilman Johnson: I move to reconsider. Councilman Workman: I move to suspend the rules. Councilman Johnson: I guess we'd have to do that too. Mayor Chmiel: Yes, we'd have to. Councilman Johnson: Okay, I'll move to suspend our rules so we can take action on this ltem right now. Hayor Chmiel: Okay, ls there a second? Councilman Workman: Second. Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to suspend the Council Rules to take action on an item under Visitor Presentations. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to reconsider item 1(c) of the Consent Agenda. All voted ~n favor and the motion carried. CiL? Council Meet.i.r,o - July,,., 11, 1990 Counc.ilmar, Boyt: Now you've got to do it. C¢,llli(:[].m~.ll b~loi kw:an: Rut I wafer to know what it is exactly. f. iayoF Ct~m[el' WouJ. d you so state, either you or Paul? Paul I<rausc~: Maybe I can take a crack at it. I think the first thing you want to do is e].iminate condition number 1 which is the one that ~r. Burdick is objec[ino to float l equires that the amended even be on the plat now. So you can eliminate that and then you need to modify condition nLtmber 5. I think it shou].d read that: enter ir, to a development contrac[ with the City which will · r eqLtJ.'r'e replatting of the pr'opeFty or, ce condemnation of HnDot right-of-way is c,:~mpl~t,-:::l. The 1-eviso(J I,I;~' ~s to show ti'me new t'igh~--' of-way and revised drairlage e~sr:ment. T wottld also prefer that you add, and 'Lhls is up (o you but that y,.:..Lt ,tdd ,~, ¢:or~d.'.f. tion th¢.~l: buildlng permits be withheld from these parcels i.t~'lt~l the final plat of %he revised plat ls flled. Hay,;f' Chmie. lr But t. hat's an automatic though is it not? Building permits aror,'k iss:Lted until once that plat is... Paul K'r'au:~s: Rfgi~t. The plat that ue'i-e filing today is one that we're a ]:;ttle concc, r'nerl with because it's being filed in advance of HnDot actually takJ. r, 9 the l~nd. We don't want to wind up in a situation whe]-e somebody wants to bt.t.ild un~Jer that plat which is going to be obsolete 2 months from Cour,cilman Workman' Well how is that recolnmendatiorl different From what we have for number 5? Paul [<~'aus~: Number 5 as it reads right now is fairly open ended and in the ir, ea. ntimc, we would k,e ob]..Lg,~ted if somebody Fequested a buildlng permit to give Cottr, cilma~] 3oh]'mso]'l: Does Hr. BLtrdick have a problem with that? 3ira But'dick: No, I have rio problem with this at all... Roger- K~ml.ttsor~.' I think it's implicit when we're talking about the lawsuit should ~1.~o be dismissed as a corlditiol~. It has to be to... Councilman tdorknla~: What would be? Roger' I<[,utson: There's a lawsuit pending on this plat. Ha>,o'r Chmiel: Okay. That would be part of it too Jim. Do you understand what Roger':s .'_:ayi l~g? Jim bu-rcl~ck: Yes. You, people have been very good to me on that right turn in and right Lurn out and oh I'ln going to want some land vacated from part of the old 78tJ, Str'eet and various things so I've decided to drop this claim of $30,000.00--$40,000.00, whatever it was for th~L trunk sewer easement. Hayof Chmie]..' Thank you. City Council Meeting - June 11, 1990 Councilman ~orkman' I'd move approval. Ma/or Chmiel: There's approval. Is there a second? Councilman Johnson: Yeah, I second it with the conditions described by Paul and the City Attorney. Mayor Chmiel: Correct. Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to approve Final Plat ~86-6 for Burdick Second addition as shown on the plans dated June 4, 1990 subject to the following conditions: Item deleted. 2. A separate document shall be submitted which provides a temporary cross drainage easement encompassing the existing drainage ditch on the subject property to accommodate dralnage from the property to the north until West 70th Detachment Improvements are completed. 3. The easement arrows shall be correct on Lot 2. 4. The C.S.A.H. 16 designation shall be removed from the plat and instead designate the street as West 78th Street. 5. The applicant shall enter into a development contract with the City which will require replatting of the property once condemnation of MnDot right-of-way is completed. The revised plat is to show the new right-of-way and revlsed drainage easement. 6. Building permits shall be withheld from these parcels until the revised final plat is filed. 7. The developer agrees to dismiss the pending lawsuit on the property. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mayor Chmlel: Are there people here for the geese removal? Please raise your hand. Cottncilman Johnson: Let's see that's 1rem 7. Mayor Chm£el: Yes. Would you like to move that we move item ?? Councilman Workman: Yes, I would move. Councilman Johnson: Shall we move it to item 3? Go ahead and do the public hearing and then. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, we'll go through that and then we'll move that one up rlght after the public hearing. Councilman Johnson: Before the award of bids. ? City Cou~lC;.]. Heetj. l~9 - June 11, 1990 Mayor Chmie]: Right. Cott'l',c:ilman Jol,]~son: I move that we move item 7 to Fight after item 2. M,'-:.yor Chlr, iel: That way you won't have to sit here all evening. PUBLIC HEARING: METES AND BOUNDS SUBDIVISION REQUEST TO SUBDIVIDE ONE PARCEL INTO TWO SINGLE FAMILY LOTS, i690 KOEHNEN CIRCLE, GLEN OOTY. Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, this is I hope a relatively simple request. It is a motet ,:,nd bounds subdivision which comes before the City Council. The proposal .is to divide a 39,000 square foot lot into two parcels. Lot A with approximately 24,000 squaf'e feet would be occupied by the existing home. That's the parcel on [l~e west. Lot B with slightly over 15,000 square feet would be nm,}de available for new construction. Both lots would gain access to Koehnen Clrc]e. Thoro are no variances attended wlth thls proposal. It does meet all our requirements. We I~ad some minor concern~ witlm tree preservation and grading and drainage is:sue~; .~r,d we've put some conditions in there that would allow us to rev'iow those J(e~s uhen a building permit is actually requested. With that we are recommending it's approval ~ith the conditions in the staff report. H,';.y~,'F Chmie]: Okay, tl',al,k you Paul. Col~cilman Workman: For as long as I've lived around here, I think they pronounce that Koohnen. Mayor Chmiel: That's only because you've lived here too long Tom. As I said, this is a publ.[c i,e;tring. Anyone wishlng to address this particular item. If seeing none, a mot/on 'to close the public hearing. Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to approve Hetes and Bounds Subdivision Request ~gO-7 as shown on the plans dated May ~, 19gO subject to the following conditions: 1. The typical drairlage and utility easements should be dedicated: a_ 10 foot front and 5 foot sides for each lot. TI'ir_.: app].]cant shall, provide a tree 'Femoral plan prior to the issuance of a bLtild~ n(j pef'lhit, 3. A 9'radill9 plarl shall be submitted prio'r to issuance of a building permlt to el'~smtf'e that the n,.~tural drainage pattern is maintained on the :site. All voted in favor and the motion carrled. City Council Heeting - June 11, 1990 GOOSE REMOVAL PROGRAM, FINALIZE FOUR YEAR PROGRAM. Public Present: Name Address Chet& Joyce Lobitz Ada Anding Lucy Vanderlinde Vicki Anding Jill Hempel Marianne Ar, ding Linda Johnson W.R. & Marilyn Hanson Jim Cooper Mark & Karen Foster Dick Schlener Bob & Sally Hebeisen A1 Harvey Mary Jo Moore Ray Roettger Bill & Marilyn Turner Arnie Hed Chuck & Maxlne Erickson Oenton White Peggy Greet & Charles Heinz Mary I(nudten Jim Jasin A1 Smith Jan Reese 3637 So. Cedar Road 3631 So. Cedar Road Excelsior Excelsior 3707 So. Cedar Drive 3715 So. Cedar Drive 3629 Red Cedar Point 3241 Dartmouth Drive University of Minnesota Chanhassen 3601 Red Cedar Point 3607 Ironwood Street 1430 Lake Lucy Road 3231 Dartmouth Drive 3221 Dartmouth Drive 3501 Shore Drive 3860 Lone Cedar Circle 3621 Ironwood Road 3351 Shore Drive 6045 Chaska Road, Shorewood 6850 Utica Terrace Lake Minnewashta Red Cedar Point Red Cedar Cove Don Ashworth: I have distributed this evening letters that were received today. You should have that in front of each of the Council members. There's a letter from Raymond Roettger, Fran and Jim Borchart, Marllyn Hanson, Jim and Barbara Larkin and Mary Moore. In addltlon thls afternoon or late thls afternoon I received a call from property owner in the Lake Minnewashta area. He had identified hlmself as the original cltlzen who had presented the petltlon in that area. He was not able to attend this evening's meeting and he asked that I pass along his request that the Council consider continuing that program. He stated that he represented approximately 30 to 40 families in the Lake Minnewashta area. Staff report on the 1rem is that this is a program we started approximately 3 years ago. We're in the fourth year of that program. As I see it, it ls not a goose removal program but in fact a goose stabilization program and staff is recommending approval of the fourth year contract. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is there anyone wishing to address this particular ltem? Maybe it was explicitedly... Councilman Boyt: Mr. Mayor, maybe if I might suggest before we get deeply into this, maybe a straw poll of the Council might save a little time. City Council Heatino-- J,~n~: 11, 1990 Mayor Chmiel-' Well Z']]. give those who'd like to get up and jus[ address lt. Councilman Boyt: They might like to know if they're addressing a favorable audlence or an audlence that's generally opposed to lt. COUl'tc.llman Johnson,.'. We'vc done this on a number of i~sues. I can tell them where I sit. Thi.-; ~-;eem::: to be the fourth year of a d year program that we've .~]~'~(ly c:o,,mi~tc~d to several people that we continue this~ program through the 4 year time phase. Especially the people that are contracting '1. o do it. I thi~mk ua c:hou. 1.'t uurmtil~uc with our oblig~tio~m to do another yea~ and get all the data Cour~cilm,'~n P, oyL: It's working. It's elilllin~ted A problem on Lake Ann and I f'!,~>'or chm[~l: l'nl ir, Full agreement with [flat as well. I did have a few c.o~ncilman John%:on: Tonl's ~miling. Com~nnilnlaT, Workman: Oh no, I agree with yotm all. Mayor Ch,l'[cl: I uss s.[t~.ing here sort of chuckling. Councilman Jol'~rm..'.':on: Re.~ding Raynlond's? Mayor Cl,mie].'. Yeah and I just I~ave to read this one particular po;-tlon. I tl',ink J.t'~ prohably the c. onoen~u~ of everyone. It says, lt's difficult to pl',otog'raph ~.he suckers but...pictures were taker, J. ndicating that there are 46 of tl,em in the y.~rd ~md I can undersf, and that. I notlced that, but if you'd lJ. ke why dc.n't yo~ jus[ come forward and if you could just limit it to just a few ,.::omm:~fltS we:'d appreciate it. Ray Roettger: Hr. Hay~r and Council mcmber~. I tl',ink... Ha>,or Chmiel: Would you just state your name and address. Ray Roettger: 011, Ray RoeLtger, 3221 Darmouth Drive. I'd really like to call .it Goo~e Lawn. Don Ashworth ~ think put it quite well when he said lt's a ~:tabil.i. zati~..n program because over the years Z've noticed that even though thc.>"r'e'- ~'emov(~d, in a week or 2 or 3 there's a falr number of geese back so there's no way ~ou're going to remove all of them but I'd like to ~ay nmy background 1~: Farm. Been born and ralsed on it and it u~ed ~o be a baby chlck hatcl~c~' and we raised 11ke of hatched 90,000 chicks a Week so I've dealt with chicke~s, geese and phea~:a~mts and ali. kinds of wildlife but I've never ~een ar~ything a:s obnoxious as gr~ese. I have on my lawn on the north shore, Saturday I tfmink T chased tfmem off 10, 12, 15 times and I'm just not able to do it all?mOro. Anybody th;.t thinks they can go ou~ there and holler at them a little bit and wave at the~,, they just como riglmt back. There at-e as many as 19 young ~al~,s: w.i. tl-m ,~ pair' o.r auults and 14 ii~ armotller group. So Saturday and Sunday I cou]~ted a~: hig~m a~: 63 on m>, yard alorme. Zt'~ not just a matter that we don't llkc: gee:sc. ~:':~ the f,'~cL that they ju~st contaminate the lawn something ter'rible ,.~[mcl tl~e b~'~h and the water la all floatlng with the green you kTmOW d~[i~g and on the docks but the :swimmirmg raft~ are really something to see. 10 City Council Meeting - June 11, 1990 They're just loaded so nobody can use them and I think it's really unsanitary. Furthermore, there's a terrible noise. Geese I think have a thing going. They squawk from morning til night you know. They're fighting and everything else but anyhow. I built a house there in 1976 there were 2 geese on my property and I loved them. But too much is too much and they're just going to, we're going to have thousands of them so you've got to remove them or might I suggest some way of capturing them and feeding them to the poor. Charles Heinz: My name Charles Heinz. We live, and this is my mother Peggy Gre~r. We live at 6045 Chaska Road in Shoreuood. Peggy Greet: My name is Peggy Greet. I'm a 32 year resident of the Lake Hinnewashta area. I visit Lake Minneuashta Regional Park everyday. At least once a day and often twice a day so I think I have a pretty good view of what's left of the wildlife in that area. I see absolutely no problem with Canada Oeese and I'm down there at 5:00 every morning. As far .as noise, I don't hear hardly a sound. On that side of the lake the most geese that we've counted is what, about 40 counting the goslings. I see them as beautiful birds. They're wonderful parents and I see them as trying their very best to survive under difficult situations. They adapt themselves not demanding very much at all. There are ,,any people, and I talk to fisherman, campers, hikers in the park and in the area which want a reasonable amount of geese left. Lake Hinnewashta is quite a large lake and certainly geese are part of the wildlife scene and I ~ould like to agree on some reasonable amount left for us to enjoy the geese. think whenever we interfere with the life cycle of any living thing and I think in this day and age we're all coming to the conclusion that we're in this planet together and that what happens to one species is going to eventually happen to all of us. ~hen we interfere with the life cycle of any creature we have to make sure that we justify that and that it's done in the most humane way possible. So I would like to request that a reasonable amount of Canada Geese be left or, Lake Hinneuashta and I think part of this might be resolved quite quickly. Chuck and I went out Saturday or Sunday? Cha)-les Heinz: Sunday. Peggy Greet: Sunday we were out for 2 1/2 hours on Shore Drive and most of around Lake Minnewashta. We didn't see one goose or hear one goose. ~hen I asked people down at the picnic areas what they think of Canada Geese and they say, where are they? I never see one. Yesterday morning I covered the entire beach, Lake Mlnnewashta Reglonal beach and found not one dropping. Not one dropping so there's certainly not a problem to the people who pay their yearly fee to use the park. Chuck and I were on Shore Drlve Sunday and we went to Hr. Wlng's residence. He I think is one of the principle opposers to the Canada geese. Z asked hlm if Z could see Canada Geese droppings on his lawn or his dock and he said oh, this year they're no problem. He said they are no problem this year. They have already been taken all off the lake. We have no problem wlth them so if this program works so well that Hr. Wing can't find any geese droppings and thought that they had already been removed, then how can they be such a problem. If he thought they had been already stripped off the lake and he opposes them completely, then why is it such a problem. He sald they're all gone. He said the reason you can't see any droppings on my lawn or my dock is that they've all been taken. So that opposes this theory that they're ual1 to wall geese and I think anything this important, instead of just taking the word 11 of th:.: people who are comp].ainil,g about this, I think third parties should go ..~.~d ..::Qr-: LI~i~-~ i~l i',e'r~:~.~l~ b~'.cause like Z say tl~ere's no droppings o~ the main beach t,Jh~c[, people u-¢c~ everyday. So Z thlnk somebody other than the property o~ners ~:l,<,uld sea tl~J;:; anti ~Ir. W:[f,g claimed that the noise is horrendous in the ~r~oi-l~j. ng. Not thJ.:: year because he c].almed that he h~d no problem ~[th them thls ye¢:~-. Z sa.(d % ~r:t ttp at 3:00 every morning. Zf anybody ~ants to call me ~hen thr;:se geese ai-e bo'[h,3rlng them so they can't sleep, I'1]. get up and I'm ~1thln minutes of theii' house, Z'I[ come over. ~hen Z get in the p~l-k ~t 5:00 in the mof'I~9, Z don't hear one goose so Z think ~hat ~e chould come to lsa compromi~:e hef'e, fl]oro ure people ~ho tore geese. Love ~11dllfe and Z thlnk 1. hat ti'~;:y shou1(J have thelf' cay 1n thls too. So Z thlnk that ~l'~at ~e ~hould work for and i'd llke to work for ~s a compromise. Z think ~e should keep Canada Geese at a reasonable ].cvcl so we ail have a chance. Now just retail, y, just pick.ing o~tt a few areas tod~y I called Orono, Lake Minnetonka. No, the City of Minnetonka arid Exce].sJoF and asked them what are you doing about your geese problems. Well M(nnetonka, tho City of ldini~etonka they have a flock of at least 300 behir~d CItb and they don't seem to be bothering anybody. The people go in and out of Culo. Thc peop!.e make their deliveries and everytl;ing else so I sa~d 1. o the peopls at the City of Minnetonka, what are you doing about your Canada goose problem. Do you have quite a few? Oh yeah, they're alt over the lawn of the Hinnetonka ¥~.tlage Hall and I said well ~gha( do you do about them and she sa~.d nothing. I said do you get many complaints. She said oh once in a while but ur~ti.l it gel to be a really huge thing we're not going ~o take any action on i:.. She said they ali 1oak, r; ~l~ tl~e ¢a11. I called Of-ol~o. 6o~: the same answer ~;~d Exce].sir;.~' ti]ay s~id, yeah. We have a lot of geese down at the Commons where (:h~idr:~r, play and s:o she called over to a man and she :said, whatever his name wut,. She said ~;'~,~ are we going to do about the Canada Geese problem? Bo we t~,~ve many i~ the commons? dad ho said oh yeah we've got a lot but we're gettins along fJ.,e with them so ~ mean ~ think ~e have to come to some sort of (.oBpromiso hare. Some people want Canada Geese but a n~mber within reason and :~.o~i,(~ want them totally wiped cut. So Canada Geese arc a part of any lake scene. so a'c3 [~::,h, frogs, whatever. Why should they be totally eliminated? ?luyo'~" ChmJe].: I don't that that's basically the consensus of the opinion of the people hera. Peggy 6roer~ ~ell. they want '[hem cleaned out isn't that it? iJayor Chmiel: Not entirity, no. Peggy C'rr..r-:~': Okay, thor, everybody wants a certain amount left.? Resident: They don't, take all the geese off the lake? Mayor Chmi¢:l: t','~',~'.'~ they have. Peggy Greet': Yeah they have. They've taken every goose. Residehl. s' No. Peggy O~'oer: That's; what Cooper's says. Ask Mr. Cooper. We had a 2 hour d~.scu:.~oJon with him and his remark to us, which I dorl't think was very business ] il<c: or very m~lch taking tl,e view of the taxpayers that are paying for this. He 12 City ConncJl Meeting - 3une 11, 1990 said to Chuck and I, if you want to see Canada Geese, you go and stand behind Cub. Z pay, Chuck pays and all my family pays $12.00 a year to go to MinTlewashta Regional Park and Z think that we have a rlght to see a few Canada Geese down there and we don't have to be told to go to Cub to see them. I am a 32 year resident of this area. 32 years. Chuck Heinz: I'd just like to say a few things about... Mayor Chmiel: You have just about 2 more minutes. Chuck Heinz: Okay, that's fine. Number one, people have been wiping out wildlife on thls earth continually. We've ulped out buffalo. The hunters wipe our ducks. Z don't like fisherman but we have to coexist with fisherman on the lake. We have to coexlst ulth people shootlng deer in the park over there. Z think that iF we have to put up with that, we can put up with a few Canadlan Geese. I know that we don't represent the same opinion as everybody here. I've seen some people bring some droppings and naturally there are going to'be droppings from geese. There are droppings from ducks. Birds. Peggy Greer: Everything goes to the bathroom. Chuck Heinz: And everything else. I'd be glad to come and help you clean it up anytime you would like to. Peggy Greer: Yeah, you call us and we'll come over. Resident: Give me your phone number. Peggy Greet: Okay. I will. Anytlme you call, we'll come. We'll be happy to come. Call me. I'm up at 3:00 in the morning. I'll be ready to go anytime. Thank you for your time. Phyllis Pope' My name is Phylll$ Pope. I live in Carver Beach on Lotus Lake. I have a couple questions that I'd like answered. I guess I haven't been keeping up wlth this toplc as well as I mlght have for someone who, and I'm going to align myself on the pro-goose side but I'd like to know what lakes i Chanhassen the project ls belng done on. Mayor Chmiel: I can tell you those. Lake Ann, Lake Lucy, Lake Susan, Minneuashta and Rice Marsh Lake. Phyllis Pope: Okay, and I'm concerned about the cost of the project. Mayor Chmlel: Total cost of the project Don, do you remember exactly what that ls? Don Ashuorth: No I don't. I can get it real qulck though. Phyllis Pope: Okay. I'll just go on. I guess I would not want to see a lot of goose droppings on a public beach and since Z don't use a public beach, Z don't know Jf this ls true or not thst there are a lot of them there but I think what I'd like to point out ls for the homeowners who are having a problem wlth this ls that Jn aduertently those of us who have houses that have lawns going down to 13 ].ak..*.(!; h,-~ve made. a p:'."~'f.rc:t l',abitat for geese. They like nothing better than a be.:~t,t'.'f~l.l>, mantcui-'ed lawn arm I tl-,ink :some ways i.o deter them won.Id be to plant so,',',.e '.':h;'ubs o'r ';to let the 9'rass grow up along the edge. They like a wide open " ,. ~,eatJ wildlife experts say that it does work so I think P,,>'l~J..$ Pope' L,J~l]. I've .... it.':~ something 1:o be tried. They like an area, geese like ar, area where they (;al'l watch ~,d see a long distance and see if anything is going to be sneaking up or~ tl~en,. ~ I.,~'ed:,t~,~'- and ~.;o if you change that, I think it mould discourage · f. he,] arl(] oR(::[: in a while when Z di-ive the Crosstown I see at the Colonial Church uf Ed~a tl',o~:e ~akes swans ~n their pond and I have a feeling that... 2e:Z~ic'!,%ri+ ' Tt ' 't WOT . . ooesn Coun¢:J.].man Johnson: I've seen geese with those swans. Phyll. iu ,nope: Well I f~evei- had so I thought maybe that worked and I was hoping that wa.:~ tl,e case. Anyway, Z guess in closing I'd like to ~ay that Z would not want to :~ee goeoe eliminated in a big way in this city and I do value the wildlife that we have. Z hope we ca~l keep i~ that way. Muyof Ci',r,~3...3]: Th~nk you. Yes maam. Ada Arlding: i'ln Ada ,',ndlr~g and I live on Red Cedar Point al~d I've lived there x;in¢'.e 19~4 whi¢l'l 9i. ve:s you ~.z ].lttle clue [o Iny age. Z thlnk all of you wlll ~:g're~; ,~rour~d the lake that we h~ve had a very sudden increase in t~xes so we too ar,.:, p,xyi, r~9 For :.i~:: geese. And if you have [o go out every day and clean up a Ii~l f .~ bushel of goose poop so you','- little grandchildren can pl~y on .~ 50 foot beach, then Z tl~irlk t.he'rn's too many goose orl [.he lake and l~st year they dld f~(,t 1.4tl.-.:s Lhem a!! off. There were about 15 or 20 m~ybe that were left that they didn't 9e-t a~d tl~at':$ flne. But Z do thlnk that the last 3 years has been a ',"o:~ impfovemel,t in ~aking +hem off. I fee1 we should continue this program ~j[ ,_r~l .... and T'm surP. w,3're never going to get rid of all of them. ,And if people wan[ to see geese, Rochester's just down tl~e road a ways. Th~nk you. Jilt; Coope. i': Hr. i4,'~yor. Member.,:: of the Council. I am not a resident of the City of Chanha:::s~:n. ~ am 3ira Cooper with t. he University of Minnesota. I came u, ut 'ton.[ght because I anm concerned about Lhis kind of program and addressing issues ,~.) be~t I ca~,. I came here in 1972. Zn 1973 we did a oour, t of Canada Geu:'-:~,. i~ [h~: Tuj. r, Cit.[es as part of a research projec[ funded by the 3ames Ford ~ell Foundation. The 8ell'~ were among ~Ol~e of ti'me families that brought geese :'~e~'e and we counted less than 1,000 geese in that year. Curre~mt surveys tell us there.'s some 20,000 geese in the metro are~ and that there's 25 cities that are having difficulty with Canada Geese. In a recent survey of the Metropolitan ~,rea ~l~dic~ted thst of tfmc 193 municipalities, 52~ or approximately 90 of them t'~ve ::,omo kind of nulsance Canada 6ease problenm. Ongolrmg programs 11ko yours have been export,merrett1, t.~e're doing our best to try to develop effective i',~-ogran, s for cl.~.minatln9 9ease problems without eliminating geese. Z think most peol:,le th~m. we worked with ~gree that the animal adds 9re:tly to our environmelmt but because it's ~ 9f'azer and because it spends all of lt's tlme during the good r~in period, nearly 10 hour~ a d~y in tho upland feeding on gr~ss and leaving 14 Council Meeting - June 11, 1990 the droppings from that foraging, the bird constitutes a hazard. We have completed our surveys of Chanhassen and we did find some 90 geese on Lake Minnewashta, mostly on the west side where they concentrate during the period at which the time they're flightless and that these birds indeed do concentrate on speclfi¢ lawns year after year after year. Thls lsa characteristic of the animal that it lndeed does result in certain areas becoming very messy. And our removal essentially has reduced the numbers of geese on these sites during the period of later part of June, July and August to reasonably low numbers. Other citle~ have had difficulty wlth thls including the City of Minnetonka which we have a contract to remove geese from their civic center and the City of Orono at 3 different sltes so the lssues are primarily of trying to do the best we can. Canada Geese are extremely difficult to control as we're flnding. Some areas we've had very, very good success such as the titles of Minneapolis and Golden Valley. Areas such as yours that are outlylng where there's many, many breeding populatlor, s adjacent, the control of the goose population have been somewhat reduced so I'd like you know that I'm here and indeed if you have technical questions, I'd be glad to address those. Thank you. Councilman Johnson: Dr. Cooper? Mayor Chmiel~ Ouestion. Councilman Johnson: As I remember this when we first started this program 4 years ago we were taking some of these geese down to Oklahoma trying to establish populations of Canadlan geese in Oklahoma? Jim Cooper: That's correct. Councilman Johnson: We were helping the Sooners down there. Then the other geese are taking, I mean we're not killing these geese. We capture them during thelr flightless stage. Jini Cooper; Yes. Councilman Johnson: The adults will return back to the same lake more than likely. Jim Cooper: The adults, according to ours, we're having the folks who get these birds band them and we've found very, very few adults comlng back. Currently the adult geese are golng to the states of Mississippi and Kentucky. They've been banding there and we're not finding bands put on in those locations back in the clties. What we are flndlng ls that in sltes where, in the outlying areas particularly where there are many, many other breeding populations adjacent to your area, that these birds are seeking out nest sites and fllllng in to a degree but we're not finding the adults come back. The young geese are released here in the State of Minnesota and agaln these are banded. We've literally released thousands of them now and we've found none of these back in the Twin Citles as such so once they're removed from here, they're gone from the area. Now what we see is birds coming onto, particularly on Lake Minnewashta, are birds from adjacent areas and certainly Eden Pralrie, parts of your own clty and Victorla to the west have lots of breeding geese as well as Excelsior and some of the Lake Mirlrletonka communities. 15 C.[ty Council lteclir,g .- J~.tl:o 11, 1.990 ,..~.,t:'~c~l~a], John.';oll' I guess at the initiation of this program they were talking ::l',~':t ,if, c: a,.]ulis would co~r:c back ere'fy y~a~' but by moving the young geese that they ~oulrl~,'t come back because they would come back to ~here they were moved ~o bt~[ Lhat's ba¢~i'~ disproven now. ,Tim Ooope,-: That's cor'rec[. £c,:~nci].ma~, Johns'on: Are they going back to Kentucky or have you got any idea wh,_,'rc the>':,'e going back f.o? Cooper: W,:]]. those birds are, that are bei~,g fei. eased and beir, 9 taken to ar'..=. :.:tay[r~9 ir~ Kentucky and in those southern states and breeding. Co~!nci!man 5oh~so~- Oh, jLtst wintering over? Jla Cooper' Yeah. They'f~ act~ally holding them for, as breeding birds, they l',o]d I. he~ For a year before releasirlg them down there and they have stayed itl i. hose so~zthef'n .states ar,d are breeding do~n tt~ere now so indeed the adult geese f.l',a': u~t.."-s [ak'i~,g from here are not coming back to the Twln Cities to any Ma>'of" Ch:,~i.'..'.l' Good. Thank you. Anyone else? Phyllis Pope: I'd like to ask the Doctor a question. A'r'e geese and loons ~;ompatib].e? ':'es t hdy are. ila>.'o;' Ch;rile!' Allyone else'? Ma,'>.' ',<~,ud'tsr,: I'm Mary Knudten from Greenwood Shores and I really don't have ,'~nytl:if:.3 n.".W i gU;.'SS to add to j.f. except thaf. we. thought the Canadian Geese were ,:.¢orld.n.'r'.ru.1. icc 10--12 years ago when there were only 5 or 6 or 7 in our yard. We have pict',.~res wl~en Lhey were coming in our frontyard and we were feeding them but we've been completely overrun w.lth them. Me can't even go down cfi our [~.';'.~¢.I~. Wh¢ll yeti dr~ pick them up, will,in 2 weeks we have 20 or 30 back again so ?].?.a$~; (lon'f. q~tJ.( your stabilization program. Thank you. Hayo; Cl~l, icl' Thar,k you. Anyone else? Yes sir. Jim Ja:¢in; I'm Jim Jasin. I'm from Lake Ninnewashta and I've lived the're since 3e70. I'd like to say something in favor of tl~e program. I think the program has beer, uonde~'rul, w~ start off 5 years ago and there were probably 50 geese on ,~u.r beach ~n the morning and now us're down to about 5 or 10. I've moved a ooup!e 'Limes in tho moantlme but it usually averages 5 or 10 in the morning g,~md I guess I'd like to ask this lady, what's a reasonable number? Peggy C..~car: Well wha~ do people think they can live with? J~lll .lasin: Is 50 a reasonable rmumber? Ch.,tek He~nz: Yeah, 50's a reasonable number. 16 City Council Meeting - June 11, 1990 Peggy 6reer: This year people are saying... If people are fairly happy this year, why not keep it at that level? A1 Smith: This picture here, this is a bunch of geese that were out in front of our place in the fall. I couldn't get them all in the camera. They were spread ali. the way down behind there. Hayer Chmiel: Would you just give your name and your address please at the microphone. A1Smith: Hy name is A1 Smith and I live out on Red Cedar Point. I think the program that's going to keep the geese down is very good because they do get out of hand. Some of swlmmlng floats around the lake are just plastered. You can't even use them. Thank you. Councilman Johnson: Do you have an answer to the money question? Mayor Chmiel: Phyllis, to the question that you had. Oorl Ashworth: I checked the books in 1988 and we paid $4,200.00. That appears to be a payment for both 1987 and 1988. In 1989 we paid $2,100.00 so it appears as though that's $2,100.00 per year. Phyllis Pope: Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else wishing to say something? ci].1 Turner: I'm 8ill Turner. I live in Hinneuashta Heights and I won't take much time but I just notlced that in Mrs. 6reef's letter. The flfth statement says Canada 6eese are shy and wary. They will not remaln on property where they are not wanted. Well it is evident that Mrs. 6reef ls talking about an entirely · different bird than we are and maybe that could resolve it. Peggy Greet: The minute I park down at the parking lot on Lake Minnewashta, they go right in the water and they will come near me and I'm good to them. They w111 not come out of that water untll I leave. 8ill Turner: How many people here have driven a lawn mower through a herd of geese and all they do is step aside? Lady, you've got the wrong blrd. I have only one other thlng to say. Gentlemen, you are here all the time and I'm only i',~'e whenever there's a goose problem. I'm just curious. If tonight there was ~ rumor that they were selling drugs at the Minnewashta Public Beach, would you get this good a turnout? Mayor Chmiel: You probably would. Bill Turner: You would? I hope so. Peggy Greerr Does everybody here want no geese or can you tolerate a few? Ray Roettger: Two is fine with me. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, anyone else? 17 .i.;.':,,~ ;.~:;~,.~: .~ur, R.~asa and I live: itl Red Cedar Cove and we've lived by the lake aloe fei- g, boul. 20 ::,omr~ yea~ and the program works very fine. The problem with ~:'LOPl-,ih,~: thc. progi-gm, in ~ .... ching the nesting pelts we probably have 7 or 8 in tl'm~ ,-~r'e::. t.l,~.~t ~ aro nou~ aT;d geese b~-~bysLt for one ar, other ~nd it'o not ur, u~ua1 that >'c.u 1ct uf~ takJr,g off even roi' o~e year, >'ou'ue got maybe ~ 10 fold in:::i':s.,t:t'..' T~ the gee:s:e s:o J'F we're happy with the pre~ent number, it means we I;c~v::: t,: kec. p the program of removal, up beca~tse otherwize you're totally out of M.t~'O~' Ctlmi,'-.].': Tl'lal'lk you. Anyone el~e? I gLte~8 fro~ll what Z have seen, geese to i?.:~ .st':.r ,:, t,,?.ry ~'aceful bird in flight. ~ specifically love to watch them into :.~e w~,t::.:r bul. WheTm yOU encounter problams in trying to maintain youy ~,~,r.p~:~"[~.' im"~ :~ condltTc, rm thzt you ~oul.~l just a~ ~;oon uso for you~', a~ you ::::'.~,Li:~,-~,:.d ;o~:r ~'~r, dshildren or your ot~n abi!ity to walk around your property, [",' pre~enLs :~ l,rob!~m~i t,~hen thel'e are just too many birds. And Z guess I eeo where the potslt, lon:~ of trying to keep these birds ir, an area or having it go t[.,vou~',: ~her'e we c:ome back in and pick them up. I ~oticed in here once the late .]~;,c~ L:,a:::ic.a.ll,, .l.~ tkme time ti'mat you normally t~lnd up doltmg thl~ and in late June .iF :ti ~s u~?,z~r.z~ t. hoy're F1yirmg feather~ have molted ::¢o it doesn't give the,m that abilil, y to real].y get up a,d leave. But Z gue~: whore Z'm coming from, I think t~m.'~ ;$.l.c~L'Tliz,t:t:o~m ;;.:.: to wl'm~t we've: golpe thl'ough with thc things that we've · ,~o,<r:r~ ,~'[ ,.n LAn past fe~ yeal-s, Z st111 fo, el ~re still warranted. At least Co!.ti,c..i].,,a~ Ooyl.: Well I think w~: all. started out LTl support of the goose 'rc,~;:,v..-.,.l ;..~'o-~sa,i. I~tores[ingly enough we've got two nesting boxes on the pond ~.. m · ,~;~',~;~, ::'~?' I'~o~.~:_:e so 't.l~e City'c dolng sometkmln9 to keep some geese around. It's certainly a chal. lermge to know where does the individual properly owr, cr's rights cio;, and sort of rmature take over but it's been successful. I agree that it's a bZt p~,.i~fu] I';~: :~u~'~ for the geese to go through the capture process and ,~aybe tm',at.':; F. art of ~,~l'my they don't come back. I don't know but if we're going to, if people ,~re going to u~e their property, we're 9oil;9 to have to do something to c:oi,trol the F, opulatio,~. I c:~'rtainly wouldn't want to see them removed from Chanl-,,~-:sen <¢oml,t:31:c~y bu~ I d(,n'l, th~llk b~o have to worry ~bomit that. ¢o I'm · :.:L!l!. fn c~u~;~;o~-t of t h~ soose removal progr~l~. '.."iayr~r el,mi.,.:.[- Tom. "' ,,~o :¢}.tting he. re substituting the goose for ,:.,,:.l.Lt~c.';~i-~ and ':h~.n ~ dc¢cided [h~L w~ very good because politicians ~re good peop].o and t]',c;y ~ouldr,'t do t hat. Hanging around people's houses a~md doing that .~:t~'ff co I Fig~.~'c:d ~I. w~.::.: am toi'ney~. Then maybe inrsuranc:e agents or something. B,~t Z th;r,k '~'::: kJ~,d of, iL really seems ].J. ke i[':~ a property owner versus the n~m.;,t'o~,ei'-t? ounc.,' issue [~c~'r-: ,}T~d I th~rmk the propelty owners I'm~ve ,.z right to ...... I :.,)r,,,:: , ,:..~'.::o~,t,~,z,~ ut:e o'F their property ~nd I u'rmderstarmd fll'sthar, d how these ~;:ov~.',~.. cF. geese cac Lake care of you in ~ mat'~'-~, of ~mours_ I don'~ promoLe the oxt.[itcLior: or' ~ma~-m of any animal. I received my request again, my yearly ?-c, quos.t From the Scott/Carve~' Humna~,e Society which I'll probably be giving money to: .,9~,;.n 'Lhi:c >,e~i' buL there's a point where you o~rm have too many dogs and too marmy o~ts: ~u..-~'~ ao >,o~t o~,'; have too m~m~y duck~ or geese or anything else so ~ ,.hir, k t,',z:'; .,.s a proven program that we should conllnue mhd I would vote &n favor of 18 City Council Meeting - June 11, 1990 Mayor Chmiel: Jay? Councilman Johnson: I move approval of the finalization of the four year goose removal program. Mayor Chmi~l: Is there a second? Councilman Workman: Second. Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the finalization of the four year goose removal program. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. AWARD OF BIDS: 1990 SANITARY SEWER REHABILITATION PROGRAN, PROJECT 90-2. Resolution ~90-64: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Boyt seconded to award the bid for the 1990 Sanitary Sewer Rehabilitation Program Project No. 90-2 to the firm of F.F. Jedlicki, Inc. in the amount of $107,222.75. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND ARTICLE II, SECTIONS 20-56 THROUGH 20-70 PERTAINING TO PROCEDURES FOR THE ISSUANCE OF VARIANCES (PUBLIC HEARING HELD AT THE MARCH 21, 1990 PLANNING COMMISSION HEETING), FIRST READING. Paul Krauss' This ordinance has been discussed with the City Council on several previous occasions. It was developed in response fo concerns that were raised at City Council meetings. The first concern was what appeared to be the Council's desire to have some additional flexibility in considering variance requests. The second concern was related to staff's belief that the variance process as it sits right now is somewhat unweildy and does not provide for a cohesive review of variances that are attached to development proposals. The current ordinance draft essentially accomplishes two things. Most importantly it revises the findings required to support a hardship finding which is necessary to grant a variance. The main change is that a definition has been provided for reasonable use which includes use by a majority of properties within 500 feet. The intent is to allow a review of neighborhood surroundings without allowing variances that make situations WOrSe. Basically what you try to do is you find neighborhood standards and if that standard deviates below the average that you find, or below Code elsewhere in the City, a variance could be considered if it meets or exceeds that neighborhood average. Carver Beach of course and parts of Lake Riley being the primary examples of situations where areas where that might occur. The ordinance will also redirect various requests for that variances associated with plats, rezonings and site plans will be reviewed by the Planning Commission and City Council. That is that the variance itself will track with the development proposal which allows you to take the big picturo into account. There was a joint Planning Commission/City Council meeting h~ld oF, this on May 14th to discuss issues between both bodies and there w,~s one minor change suggested by Councilman Johnson that will be incorporated in the draft. That has since been incorporated and we are recommending that the ordinance be given first reading. 19 Jui~,'~. J.l~ !990 :'~a).'-~r C.h,ni,:'.l'- Thank >'ow. Is there anyone 'aishin9 to address this? COL,.ncilmar~ P...oyt: I might want to. In fact I do want to. What does this do to · ~:I~. type.c; of va'rtnnces that go to the Doard of Adjustment and Appeals? Do they sst s:ov:--re<l b/ p~rt.?, of this or .ts this only for the ones you mentioned in 1'0-30, pl,~ttirig, :::il.e. plan review? Pa~tl l(i-nus~: Da:sically it's for' those [hat are attached to development p'ropo:'~ls f'.,-om the Board of Adjustment and those would track with those props::,;:,].::: i:i,rough t~,e Plannirmg commission and City Council so the public hea'r'ing ~'::-~tulremc-i,ts wou].d not be minimized and there would st111 be public notlce. The Board oF Adjustments would gene. rally be limited to reviewing variances attended uit]m building permit. Variances or restating or questioning of Code irmtr~,-pre~,t.iar~s a:.d ~ dcr,'t know, Roger ~m ~ missing anything else but it'rs bas~ca].l/ those J. tems ~hat would come up before the board. ,S,:)unci].man P,o>'t: Hell and that's what we're, doing now il~ practice. P,.'ll I ]. " ..... ' ,,~,-,us:~: Well in practice it s quite confusing actually, gourlcJ, lman Ooyt: R.lght. I'll accept that. Council. mar, Johns;Ol~' We do a little of both. COUFI.rfl].r,q,~i-I O.nyf.: Uha.". I'm riel. following is in 20--58, and since there is a fair · ~,.'-,r, bat. ween 20-30 and 20-58, maybe it's covered in there but we set out these r,~'.;¢ con¢liti'3i,:s anJ ,ly qtlcstioll is, do th.~ rlew conditiorls apply to all sorts of va;-'lz~nce~ or just the ones that go through the Plato,lng Commission 'route? Fo. ul ;.;~'=us~.' They would apply to ~11 of them. ..csul,cilma]'l D.o>,i' Okay. Then when we get into, I've got two concerns. Page 2 ~-'..' the nc..w o'rJ3r, ar~c~; where ~t talks about the flow of thls [hing. I'm not ~ure ~l~a't >',)~.~ i;:ea~, .i~ j~.~lr, (e) t~h~;~, it says if no decision is t'ranum~.tted by ~t:n Pl~.~.;,iilrmg Comm;~i:sr~ion or the City Council within 60 days from the data of a '.,.'.};'.iai;cc ,-uq[tc:::t, ~h¢ Council may take ac:t/on on the 'request. Does that mean the ~ay ~h,;,t's stated that tl:e Councll must wait. Zf they don't hear from the C~ty Council timer we mLtst wait 60 days? COllnCiJ. n, an Johr:son' What? .'~ounc:il:~c,r, ~,oyl.: From thc time it was fi'rst submitted? See if it goes to the P]Anr, lf,g commj::...siol: and I. hey Forward it on, there's ~ very logic~1 flow to thZs. fty quos;ti, on is oooasiormal]y, from time to time we have items that come up that don't go to th.a Planning Commission that CODe directly to the City Counc11. ~aybo bec~LtSe somet[ming':~: ch~ngA:d in the proposal after it left the Planning Paul Krauss' That's true and I guess I would say that in 'fairness most of those i',r_-.n~, should have 9orle back to the Planning Commission bur. in the interest of -I.r'/ir~g Lo wo¥'k with thc deve].oper fo'r example on the hotel, we tried to speed ~.h'[llgs ltd for them and we took it di'r,.-.ctly to you. That sort of circ~muented · the [.-.'~'cce,s~; t. hnt .it 'really should have gone back to the Planning Commission. 2O City Council Meeting - June ll, 1990 Mayor Chmiel: Paul, weren't these words taken directly out of the Statute? State Statute? Paul Krauss: I would defer to the City 4ttorney on that. Roger Knutson.' Which words? Paul Krauss: (e). Roger Knutson: No, that's your own procedure. It mirrors what you have now. Councilman Johnson.' Except it doesn't say Planning Commission now. Rogcr I<nutson: Right. It doesn't say Planning Commission. What this does is if something is languishing at the Planning Commission and you decided that you didn't tsant that to happen anymore, you can take action without their recommerldatior, after &O days. [:sun,si leaf, Johnson: Does it force us to? RC, gOF Knut:son: Wait 60 days? Councilman Johnson: No. Does it force us to take action after 60 days? Roger l(nutson: No. Councilman Johnson: Because sometimes these proposals go back for other things other than the variance and lt's the variance is just a tag along. Roger Kr, utsor,: The only time I envision you using this is when you think, for whatever re~son that there's an emergency or that the Planning Commission is being dilatory. Unreasonably dilatory. Councilman Boyt: Right, that's not my concern. My concern is that the way this Js worded, does it force us to walt 60 days? Roger l(nutson: Yes. Counc:ilman Boyt: Then that could in fact slow things up. Mayor Chmiel: Where uould that happen? Councilman Boyt: Well that would happen something like where the issues are pretty cloar and we want to bring it directly to the City Council. Councilman Workman' Who makes that decision? That's fairly clear. Paul l(rauss: I guess I'm not certain how it would tie things up. I mean if you had a slte plan that had a variance and the Plannlng Commission was having a difficult time with that site plan. The site plan's the primary action the varlance ls attended to it. The intent is that both actions be forwarded to you at tbs same time. I guess this would allow you to intervene in the variance part of the proposal. 21 £~'~.' C(~:~r,¢:il '"i~.etir:-:¢ June 11, 1990 CoL[nc:illegal, BoyL. O;',].y ]f it had been there for 60 days and your example of the ':'~t%[ i::~ L~ good one .il/ that that c,llilC up. The staff's concern about that came up :.nd fo'r' op~'.e(! p,.t,"posc:s it came directly to the City Council. Z.t was the most cof~ver, ient ,tnd ~[nder this ordinance and probably under existing ordinance, since t':,.".-:, h,~s-~,'f, cf, sieged, we don't have the ;-ight to do that. P.:".~.'.l F,F~k-t'.-s.'..;' ri. ut yOU wouldn't have acted on the :-site plan in this case. I mean :.,h~., ;-~t? pl,.~l'~ ~.~ou].d t'~'acl; ;qitl-i 'the variance so there would be no building out tl',:JF:"-: ~.~.~ttr, 9 for approval. I guess I'm not, I don't know. It doesn't seem to, ~i'1:- v~',r~an,:..,-, request would be the primary action and if you didn't have that in you,- h~nd~-'~, tl~cf~ tt,e va~'i~nc:e would be somewhat meaningless. .C.~;L!n~;il~aT, ~O?t.' ~e did I,avt: it. You were the one who brought this in front of ':" ',¢0['. I,.i',([c'f'.-](.af,,¢ .~.' , . ...... I':~. cJrJuri~stance..~ You didn t take it back to the Planning Co~,~,J.ssior, nor the ¢oard of ~djustment and ~ppealo because it didn't see,, like ~.t ,:~.:~ appcopci,;t.e. No~ all I'~, saying .ts we should build that into our a¥-di~c,r;ce s:o that ~Je're not circumventing the oral.thence ~hen ~e do that in the futui-'c. 3~ i wuuJ. d like to rcques;t you ~nd tl',~ City ~ttorney, look at ho~ ~e :~,~, ~.~oi-d that i~-, there. 2oge'r Knut~.o'n- You could take that out if you wanted to within 60 days and just .::,:.) p~(',~:~l;t]>'. The;, i'~':.; your call as to ~hat's pro::~pt. Cour,c¢lm,-~r, ~o>'t: Dell I'll accept thati Hy other concern is a bigger one to me .-:r.J th.:'.t i.~:., wl~.'.n Z look at how you define hardship, which I think is the heart of the change that you're proposing to us, I don't see that this helps us much. Fit-~t;. ~Ol~tChOt,~ We h:~ve t.o determine what the ma~orii:y uso of property within 500 Feet i'::. ~here that language ~ay seed to be easy, it isn't going to be. My .Liltr~;.~: J_:¢ you're Bet gOil]g Lo end tip with 3 pieces of property of which 2 have L~-*,,,,,. or .~.. cf wl'~ch 3 have that. Instead you're 9Ding to end up with something ~hat':; ,i~[tch moro big. It's llafd enough to determine which pieces of property .~,-~': ~Jth.~.'r~ SO0 feat which should bo easy and when you start trying to figure out ,~,ljOi'%ty L(S;e:3 el', th,Bt. ¢0 I'm r~ot sure that we've figured out how to make this oyd~nance more flexible when we do that and part of that concern is when I start trying Lo put this in perspective of let's suppose somebody wants a garage th;-:t's a foot and a i',;,lf longer'. Does this help us? No. Let's suppose that sa~,~body wan(s a 3 ca~- garage and their ~,eighbors withir, 500 feet have a 3 car g-.~r~¢~': but it t. uFr, s ou~ that their piece o'f p'r'operty is half the size of their r~eJ. ohbo~-s. Boss this help us? It shou].(In'~ bec~7, uso their neighbors may well F, ot noecl c, v,~ri~i',c~, r%nd let's take the situa[i6n that we've got ir, town where ' l,.~-i~' r~,~ighborr:: have g~t a dock that they ill~gally put in and now they want a d;.:c];. OD wr; thor, go out and fun this test on it and say well, lo and behold ;,...;~" r~¢:3, ghbo~:~: I',~,~ so~i~e :~tuff which wa wouldn't grant today but we're gOil]g tO g~V3 FOil that same thing. I'm not comfortable saying that, these peop!o made a I';(..:t.;~;,~ .*~.d no~ we're going to 1st the neighborhood make that mistake. ~layo'r' Ch2iel: I agree with that position Dill because jttSt out on Lake Riley, j~..:,t ~..x,'; ;:t ].>, ~:;h~. you s~i(J, fho'~',,~'s an existing deck. Tho next door neighbor ~-¢ant:: to put. irl a deck but he can't because he's not ir, compliance with the ~,.'.,~r, an(.:~ :;it Fur that existing deck wa:~ put ~n prior to and it'd be a shame to 9o do~r~ and r.,;f, that do~n. But if yOLt have one in violation of it already and it'.-; c;xi.-'.t'tl~.3, ~;l',y can'( th,tt second per-soil basic~lly do that? 22 City Council Meeting - June 11, 1990 Councilman Boyt: Well I would say that they shouldn't. Mayor Chmiel: You're saying they shouldn't but I'm looking at it from a standpoint if one already has it, why can't that other person. Counci)man Boyt: Well there's two reasons. This ordinance won't let them have J.t because the majority of neighbors within 500 feet don't have that problem and then ue get into, are the majority of neighbors in a similar property situation. 9o they also have a unique piece of property which requires this? I admit that our ¢:urFent ordinance is difficult. I don't think this one's easier. Mayor- Chmiel: This same particular one that I'm talking about has a street in front. Has a street in his back property because of the right-of-way. Councilman Johnson: One thing that Paul has done on some of the variances, Paul and ~h,~rmln and Jo Ann lately is compare this ~ith the 500 feet criteria and looked~ even though it wasn't passed, went out and tried to test drive this ordinance a l~.ttle bit. I think you've been fairly successful in the ones I've seen so far of coming down to a conclusion one way or another whether a majority of Lhe properties in the area had this. So I think that is feasible to actually do it because they've tested to 2 or 3 times. ,C;L., Kra : Councilman Johnson, yeah That's accurate. We have tried to give you both versions so you could see how it worked. Both of those instances had t,'~ do ~J. th lot area which in fairness to Councilman Boyt'$ concern, it's p~-obably the easiest thing to measure but over the years you try to find a perfect solution to these things and I kno~ I've tried and I'm sure Roger's tried longer than I have and I don't know that there is one. What this gives you the opportunity of doing though is, you have the discretion to evaluate the data. When we did the lot areas, when I had Sharmin do the lot areas for that Yariar~ce situation that you're speaking of Councilman. There were some lots that ~eFe exceedingly large and there was a 25,000 square foot lot and I think ~,~ decided to throw that out of the average because it would skew the number. I mean that was a decision that we made because we didn't think it was fair to the applicant. Now it ultimately turned out that we recommended denial because he didn't comply with the average anyway but I think you do have the opportunity to evaluate those things and use your discretion. Right now you don't have that discretion. Right now it's either there's a hardship verifiable under the strict criteria or there's not. No, this does not throw open the doors to a lot of situations but I guess it wasn't intended to. )layer Chmiel: Roger? Roger Knutson: I think what Bill says is right. There's a lot of situations this doesn't help you one whip but you can think of lots and lots of examples where it may give you assistance. The ones that come to mind for example, let's say on lake property you have a requirement that you set back 100 feet but the whole lake is already developed and you go down the block and everybody's got a deck on their house and they're all wlthin ~0 feet of the lake. The last homeo~rler who hasn't put up bls deck yet comes in and says oh no, you've got to be 100 feet back. Well the reason you want that setback from the lake i8 probably aesthetics so people, the boatlng publlc and what not out there, can !ook ~t ~t and it will look better but if the pattern is already set, you don't 23 ...::cc,;,~;:lj:.:h th,st k>, mak.!.l~g th,t~t pe'r'eon toe t!~e mark. The same with the fron[ T[ evc~-o[,,; ~n ti~o wl'~o].e blo~:k i:: oct back 7.5 feet already ,and the o'r'd.!i,anc;: ~.ay;: !00, t,~e.ll ~'[ uould look odd to have the other person comply to That'._; tl'~ sort of sLtuation whore i~ wouJ. d help. ~t doe:$~'t solve hi~g, ..... · ' BoyL: ko ' . So let' Co~,r,,..zll,lan And I 1i that. Your exanlple makes a lot of .... ~c~' ,:.n ~z:'<~mm~plo , h,~l: m~,.',~c (]oe~n t nm~ko c:o mttch sense. All the other lots ,~,"c.u:,d m:,,';:, ~n,.~ re 15,000 square feet. Mine'e 12. I can't build a deck. ~ ~"~.~ ~1 ~ -. ,:Jet:. · m~,.'; ....... gO~ ku They're all set back appropriately from the lot !ines. ~ ~:t~,i. ~.,.~ l..ui]d a deck that goes right up withirm 5 feet of the lot line. Now ,:~'.;:.:'->.'b.:dy els~ I~,~.s got ,; deck. So what if I'm only ina 12,000 square foot plec~ of property. Z ought [o be able to have a deck. That's why that 12,000 '.~quzre foot piece of pt oparty lsn't ~:s expend:ire as the 15,000 square feet. It "~-. ~t ~i ;~].l ' -', t:.;~'3h . AV::- t t hiFIgs.: ~ .. .... nu:~:~: hat come ~'tth i+ cad urmder this ordinance you'd .I ~...~. tr.~.] tl,,.~ ~ ........ .~m'~ywa~ and 7o~i' neighbors in eusenc:e would be giving you some ',:,.'..',f'rer zone ~ut o'[ tholr property. They wouldn't be selllng it to you but i I . L ~ .[ . m ,:c, w~:~:., ~lSl~J "~ ...... u.1. sp~ittii,9 ~l',~ diffei'ence and ~ou'd be ~n fact .... ,:,:t's ~h~{ ~e're tlr~tr:g to do. ZI[ Il ~ ~ [ [ lJ ]l[ I ~ ~ ;~ Cl ~I il; ~I ; :l ]']I:~l ]Ii ] ~ woL~].d be trying to avoid the s~tuat~on ~he~e the ~[I~L[~]i ~ot ~:~,:I K';-::,u.::.'-': P~: T say, it's lllOt the. perfect :~olution. If confronted with that ,ml;.flg. S ::,.t>' that was a lot that's existed for oO years and 'h~.. ~'~:m. of thc nc.:~hbo¥'hood built up a~ound !t and todaty's house, you c~n .:,su~::~ 'LhnL c. vct'>.'body in that ~eighborhood bullds a certaln kind of a house, you .".:..sial ~:robab~7 5us;tlfy doing something to allow a variance foF a deck if you f~-:1'. !L ~.s::. ~p~-'.~'sp~'~,te s;nd corm~ste~'~t ~lth th:. neighborhood. Orm the other '.,..";d, ;,'.:~:~ ,:':ould evaluate that. ~ tl~;~t w~;s a newly platted lot and say, no. Vr, u ~,~,,ei;-':.~..~, wl'm~t you ~,,:~ 9~.~tti',~g into. Zt s not a comparable situation wlth ~':~. :.urro~ndLng neighbors. ,....,;L~l'lC:Jlman Johnson: Hr'. Mayor'? · %t . .., H;~yor C!imJ. e].: :c' Jay. Collnc.'i]~,:al: 3Ohrl~;C)n: Let's take Bill's examp].e. We'll take it and say, okay. ::;:.~.-m,I&~,/ u:¢Ck.'= il%F.? ~-;zl:h[rl tile S foot setback, 10 foot setback in the propeFties il.Councilman 3oyt' None of them. Johnson' Then a majority is not in the same situation. f.::(-'ll-]~li~;~ ]tl'[:"-~'~l; '~;-.m)'lt' No. Tll, iu says what i:s ,a reasonable use and that is a use made !:,)" ._; ma~o'r'!t? Of other F.'r'operty within 500 feet of it. So if everybody else has 0,:.. ,~ d::.c:k, i.~ .... t ¥~*z::--: ',~ :~: ,:, re~sona, ble use foi' that piece of property. F',.~:t] K¥'a.u::;s; And one example where that might apply is, I forget the name but ?. tTM :,' l' ', f ' i ,.~; l C ."' , ' -.r:,-:,~ t,~:~ h,~d ir, I.,~kc Riley last fall where thoFe wa~ a home that had been pat-tia].l? d3mo'd befor,e getting a bu]lding permit. 24 City Council Meeting - June ll, 1990 Mayor Chmiel: Right. Not too far from the one I was looking at the other day. ?awl l~rauss: Yeah, I can recall. In fact Bill and I had this same discussion bJc.~usa I argued for the fact that being allowed to rebuild that lake front cabin or whatever it was into a 3 bedroom home with a deck was consistent with what everybody else had done in the neighborhood and was a reasonable standard t,; deuslop to. That was not the rationale that was used to support the :..'.'~ri,~nca. The rationale in that case was suggested by Councilman Boyt had to do ~ith a precedent that was set on another lot. 8ut I still feel that the concept J.s a valid one. That maybe there is some desire to be able to work with son~ebud), who is rehabing a home like that. At least, I mean nobody's saying build a 5 car garage and a 5 bedroom house with a maid's quarters but for a 3 .5~droom houoe and a 2 car garage that seemed to be fitting in with the n~ighborhood, there was some rationale to support that. M,~yor Chmiel: Yep. That house is a credit to the area. They've done a very nice job. ~o~a~' Knutson: Haybe one idea I could throw out is, take out the word "other property" and put "a majority of comparable property". ?.,~yor Chmiel: What page are you on Roger? Roger Knutson: That's page 2 where it says, reasonable use includes a use made by a majority of other property. If you wanted to take care of some of those c:oncerr,~, maybe you could say by a majority of comparable property. Councilman Boyt: That would take care of the Lake Riley situation where everybody else also built up to their lot line. ~ell many other homes in that area built. It might cover it. Councilman Johnson: And your 12,000 square foot, there isn't a comparable piece c'[ property within, in your example there's no other comparable piece of property withir, 500 feet. C~ur, cilman $o>'t: Right. Councilman Workman: And that diffuses the applicant a little bit too. Councilman Johnson: It gives them one more arguing point. He'll argue what's comparable. Councilman Workman: Well but I think it plugs a lot more holes than like other properties. Councilman Johnson' Yeah. I like that change. Ccuncilman Workman: Because other properties is everybody. Mayor Ch~,iel: Yeah. In fact it appeals more and more as you think about it. ~"01 ' ~' ' .... ~:,c~Im.arl Workman I'd move approval of the first reading of this. 25 -7:::.'.: '.'T 1 :.,..-'.':'_. ...'.,., ..... .., ,.., ,-,.~t. 1:"' +,.hr; ,;hal~ge:-... Take ~l'~e.. 60 ca;.-':'~' oL;t and that changeo it l, .. · . f'o~.~f;,::.l~:~,:,: 2o>'t.: at ri~n a:.-;k one oti~er qu::..st!o~. In it,em (b) on page 3. Thi~ :.:..'>.I'_',.'..'. ;.I,::>'-.: h,::,,..c~: ~';.tl~ 2o~,:-;":; suggesLio~: be. caul.'., it ,.~,'~;,~, conditions that are ~ .: ,". .". '.'-i ~ : :' t,. ':.hr: ;:-,;',-',-c.; of ]a;,d fo'r ~,hic. h t,h~: v~'riance Js ~;ought. How does that --"."_'... u;'-'t',, ¥.:I~,.:.'.. ~..~..~t talked ~bout? .on t have to meet ali. & fi. ridings or whatever it is to achieve have ~o mec( some oF t"~lem o'r one of them. ",',ur, n .[ l p,, ,:, i ,.. 2".;.'t'_,. ,-~aul, ;~e argue you have to meet al~ or ther:~. P,,u~ .......... Al' ~ L Ile,li? ,,oF ','Ou',u a flexi, bio kind of guy Paul. It'.~, an all or nothing .~1 . I ~ · ,- I.. · · ~..~.. , ~.- ...:i;0111 .I ' , =.. ....... ,.: .:,i,4 --~,,rl;m,~;r~ ~lmat ai'e you s.~>'~r,g'? ~ake (b) out? %'~lZ;'~::.:il~l~,'~ ,~¢-.>-',. ~..~o, I ~r; ~ur;~ :s6y~no that inbetueen the fif'st and second ~','.:.E:.i !:i ll9 ~ =e'l. ::; encourage f. heln Lo figure out how do :,~e ~ccomplish what we ~ant . F',-L.[I] ......... ' " .... ~-..: ,.'~ ~; :.: ,.,, ;,':i i. .-'.,...r . m . , yOLt ,do sol, oLJ'l.[rl9 · ,,., ...... 07. . ..Jc.n',. l~nou ir ~hat.':; 4 problem though because it says if it's ::. ,: .~:ame zofmif~g c:.las~sification For example, if most homes have or property ;' ~l,,',L'-v ." ~'.'---':-'i(;t .',. !,s have 2n OhO squa~ e fee~: and you'r~ less than 20 000 :=.:qd~:i',. ~,~.,,.¢ ,than you're unique. But i'f you're a c~rbon copy of the zoning ,;fi.at(i,..' .... ~ ,~,car; >'ou'vc 9o~, if tl,o zoning di~triot i'equires 20,000 square feet . .. I >., ~,,:: .3~'ve 9or 20,000 square feet and you're i,Je~l, ical, maybe thcn you don't "~ ....... '~ ~ ~ oui' ,,~ ~ bttil,t after the zonirmg ordinance was put ~' - ...... ~z .,'.;.~ .,dil"_:CC. ;',~ 7 ]10,., .... , .... ;, .... , ,n-.,~n 0:'~ '[hi:_'.: wouldn't be the 500 feet. This is tho zonJ. r~9 · s,.,~:s::..-.-'.:.::.-',t.',.on. .50 Jf you'f:2 in afl 2.SF, you"re colnpafir, g i% to ,my l~ouse. To I .,I ~.t ,~. ..~ ,~. q ;-'.~u," ~,~,.;:;:~. To~ae ,,~,7or ?. l',ou..se. We~2 ''ma PU9 but ~ny~ay, 2].]. other RSF-s ..... _ ki:JL"Y 'ui,C ~'"~l'l ?i .-:; y -.'., ; .¢.!'l~ifi.'.'..l~ Yep, !lot fl'.~.r:esoari!>' ~ithin that :Neighborhood. " ' ' ~ ,7C ' l' " · -.,:. .... :,:.,~:,l',n:.~;ori ,-,o witl'liri that ..specific tleigl',borhood. .... .',,:.. -'t's ..;:.,i,Tl:.';.:)li ~,o '1'hi.:3 t''{ .-,, ,., ~ ~,_,~s to say uell, he did ..~+,. J.n Carver Beach ~-I,'.! ' ~ . : , Jri a~.d "" '- '' .. . C,.~,ar Point r'...3.~,.'.'~' ['.',i',,.ii:'"Oi;' T ';', "_ :-': :;aye you've 9et to have something unique about your p, £:i)' Council ~ee+in9. -. ~un~' ~ 11, 1990 COLtncilmar, Johnson: Let's look at it between the readings. M~yor Chmiel: Check out (b)? Okay, we have a motion on the floor. Councilman Doyt: I'll second it. Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Boyt seconded to approve the first reading of Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Amend Article II, Sections 20-56 thru 20-70 pertaining to procedures for the issuance of variances amended as follows: On page 2, item (e), delete the 60 days. Page 2, Item 20-58(a), change the word "other" to "comparable". And on Page 3, item (b), direct staff to look at this item. All voted in favor and the motion carried. REAR YARD SETBACK VARIANCE REQUEST FOR AN EXISTING SHED, 620 FOX HILL DRIVE, JAMES MCALLISTER. Pacl Krauss: There's no action necessary on that. It was denied by the Board and it ~as not appealed. Councilman Johnson: It doesn't mean he won't appeal but. ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTION 20-92 REGARDING CERTIFICATES OF OCCUPANCY BY ADDING PROVISIONS FOR LANDSCAPING REQUIREMENTS, FIRST READING. Councilm~n Boyt: I'd move approval. COLtnci].man 3ohnson: Second. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to approve the first reading of Zon&ng Ordinance Amendment to Amend Section 20-92 regarding Certificates of Occupancy by adding provisions for Landscaping Requirements. All voted in favor and the mot&on carried. CONSIDER PURCHASE OF CSO SUPPORT VEHICLE. ~on ASI'lworth: We did take bids between 12:00 and 2:00. I distributed copies of the memorandum on the bids so you should have them before you. It's falr to say that we're unhappy with all of the bids that were received. We're hitting up to an area, 315,000.00 we're required to formally bid. By the tlme we look at radios, equipping the vehicle, we'll go over that $15,000.00 mark. I sincerely believe that if we reject all blds, go back to the normal bidding process where we can pL~rchase vehicles under some of the State contracts, County contracts, etc. that we can brlng back a bld that will be $2,000.00 under that. What we're say~ng is, be in that $13,000.00 bracket. The $13,275.00 is a 2 wheel drive. That j~st doesn't work if ~e're trylng to chase down vehicles. None of them are good. So stiff is recommending that the Councll reject all bids. Authorize staff to rebid J.t again attempting to u~e the State contract's typlcal. Mayor Chmi¢l: I would so move. Counci/nlan Johnson: Second. 27 C.:ty Cc;[~nc..'.:] He:,:tin~ -. Jun~ 11, 19~0 ,M.lyo';'~"r..:,]..-.'l' Ii'::: bee~l moved and seconded. Discussion. ~:aFu;- Chmiel' R.Jqu~'..st additional bids. , ,, .-to rcj:';ct ti,ese. ~.,,,~,i.'.:l And to ;-eject these as so stated by Don Ashuorth. ;'!,';)'0i" '"~-' ' ' ' .... ,u-.c:.~.1,.:,,=.n 3,.;?.1.- T.-; Lh:-~','.n some way ,,~horo we can put together the approval to J,c.c-'F,t t. hn lo.vest b~d ,-~s long ;.s Lt',~'; under' a ce'train flgur'e and not have to L .°.. ...~ ,* .~ I I _:.~,-~ :.,, "· :..';.r;-; :~a~l; up ag;~ir: unJ. e:::~ i+.. exceeds that figure? think it should be brought back to Council. Scu.,',=']r,,,,::~ D~->'t' WeI. i I thirlk w:_'. have the votes to approve this with a maximum ,. .I. 'r _ ~ ~: ~ ~ 'For ~l,c' ';,~:i:l;' o, lS,O00 O0 :..::,.::::;'.ct];,~=n Jvh',,',::on' I dor;'t know. Thef'e ai'e some very st',.'ic:t laws about how we .'.: 5. 7: ,..J 3 i' ~.. · qounc.;'.~- L.Io," - - Somet. hin9 about c.i.'rcuinvent"ng the process ; d.:'i ,'~ I1:¢ t :'1 . ?~i:,;..:!m:',:, ?.o,hnsor:' See I car, ceo the la~>'er on tho other side of you going, I do;','~ ~hi,,l," ...... i[d][ ~[~ ] i~ WO'F k. Hayor Ohmic! moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to reject the bids for the p~rchase of a neu CSO support vehicle and to authorize staff to rebid under the State'~ contract, hi1 voted Jn favor and the motion carried. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS~ Comtm~c.~l,:,an Morkman: T just want to quickly mention that the Southwest Corridor T'.. :;;...-.:po,'L2tie,n Coalition and the newspaper, at least 1:he Villager reported. fl,.~yb;:: i.',. wa.-': 4 scoop, reported that the lottlng date, armd certaln].y thls lsn't just .~ CoalJ. tZon but i[. came to the Coatitlon's attention by some foZks that the l.;:t'Lin9 d.xte for tho Charml'~acson segment of the TH 5 whlch was scheduled to be f,'.,::.',:r;~,~b,z-i' of thic year w~$ 9o~11g to flOW magically bo moved to November next year ~h~:.:h i:~¢~: c:ol~::;ti-[tc't!on completion to CR 17 would be 1993 somewhere. Fall of .s~i~,~bc:i-. The c:oalLt:ion ac:ted quZckly. 6et representatives from area co~munitJ, es, etu. Jn the coalition and there was a compro~ised reached where the ]r,,tZn.~ j,= .... wo~ld not be Harch 31st of 1991 whZch Ln effect ui].1 ~ot l'minder the con:;truction date. Gary Warl-e~m wasn't al)le to be there when we met ~lth HnDot ',:~:.~: ~o,: Ashuci-th u;~.;. Z think he did a commer~dable job of defending the City in wh&1 T s:su~ t,:, be ~ Y',armgi~mg of Ci~rmha:s:sen ~lth the reasons for the year delay '~'~ "~di~' .......... 'd 'r tl~i~,k ~Ym~s~ I:l~o f'oom, 1,-~c:ZudLrmg ti'm-newsp,,p~ saw that r.~yb~ '~ ~ ' " ~,~,~L '~a:::n t t:'ue and thai. :~c, T think the Coalition ~ith the 6lty and ,:v~r~L-.o,:.~y lnuotv.~.~ t.:;c:r~ able to ~in a little one for aaintalning ti~e schedule :.~.¢t w~ uantcc': an~l wr~'~.-~ countin9 on. It's ~ delayed schedule anyway so ~e ;;or,' ill,i? tv.. 'F~gl,~. tho battle .... cf riot CnOLtgh mon~;y and not ~nou,¢,h t'ime ~itlm 28 Council Meeting - June 1J,, 1990 highwsys. .So I just wanted to say that everybody did a good job. Including the Ma?or ,.'~'. dour, ther~ too M. ayo'r Chmiel: Okay. DOT',? 0on Ashuorth: I passed a copy of the resolution. The State has purchased the ho~,ms ~long TH 5. One has been removed. The other one has a tree half lying over it. The State has authorized our Fire Department to use that as a part of ~raf. nir, g ex~rclses but in doing that they need a resolution. What are they asking for? ~im Chaffee' It's actually a resolution from City Council authorizing the Fire Department to use that building as a training ground and to hold the State h~rm~ess for any accident. Well, if the State's in gross negligence then we t-;on't Icavc them i~armless but for any other occurences that take p~ace there, ue'].l hold the State harmless. £~uncJlman Workman: Uhich house is this Jim? Gary Warren: Innovative Industries isn't it? .]~o Chaffse: Yeah. ,.qo;', ,-qsh~orth' The one with the tree on it. Ma>'or ChmJel' The one that got moved out. Right next to it. Council. man Workman: It's the one next to it? G,~i-'? Ya,'-ren' There are two properties across from the Press. Councilman l.lorkman: On the south side? Jim Chaffee: Right. One was moved. The other is still there. Councilman Workman: I'd be interested in knowing, they're going to torch it? ,.lj,~,j Chaffea' I think that's the ultimate goal but I think they're going to use il for varJoLts training techniques. Entry. Rescue and things like that prior ~o it hs.C. ng torched. Don Ash~orth: In talking with Dale Gregory, they're really looking for houses lik~ thiu. In their training schedule they have a number of the firemen who have not I,ad experience in this area and they would like to be able to leave the str:~cture up for as long a period of time as possible so they literally start a fire, get it going and then run people in and so it will probably stay there. That's the other reason for the rush is so they can start that process. Councilman .lohnsor,: Usually you have an older house. This is a fairly modern looking house. A little more typical of a Chanhassen home then they get an old fa;-mhouse or something like that they get to practice at. 29 ~,.., ...... i~,,lr:]' HOw do ue keep this f'r'o,, being vandalised whorl we're no4. ir, F .' .; .-. :.". .'~ ::~ _,r ':a".li~t,j ~:.'r t'r'ainJng? WhaL do we do a~ a protective measure? · . ~z~e we do ~ith the Senlina'ry. Chainl]nk fence and post ~!;~' t..:.£ .-:-'FI ist..'.;i :7.11ch &:-: liglli_il;g o'r something ['o deter someone from trying to en .... 'r' or ar,~] [he're exi~,L'ir, g 119hts that can be used? -..... , ~':r,: ~..-.~:.o,? '.,':~9ht on TI4 5, that's a little bit of ~; deterrent. We've ~:'.,:~. ¢:onsf. ructio~l, as I'n, sure you'"re aware with L~ke Drive East gO~fmg Ofm pretty ....... ,,- fy.ill., ,..~=.:...::.....; :,ow fo,' th~. .. ~,,.~.-,+,. several months so I think it's going to be pretty ...,c,. :~F~a. T]~a~ ;t ~of;'t b~, ~hat pFo~e Scr: "!:-'-hw..'~'Fth: t-~h~t we did in the Bandimef'o one was to actually board [tp the ~;i'F:dc',u~-:: be,'::~u:-~e agc~in they don't want the smoke escaping and yet witYm uJ. ndous '.h.:~¢-:.. :~, ~:m',,:,.:',,:,'. ~F b~ caking them out. It ~ the first thiF, g tl~e~'l], do 2s go in .~,-:~ ~ ..... , . ,;,'~,*r~ Lb, tM' ui,'~dou; and then ii. totally nail shut the doors untJ. 1 they're i'.; ..;.:~/ ~..;~ ,~X::'.~ c..~S8. . .. .... A,',, :-;e ;,;~.]~ n-;~t-:.ry f. he ¢:-,'-~,-~ff's DepaFLment to keep an eye on both ,. I. ~ - f' . ,I fl., ~ . , .-.-: :.. .... :..ii:.;.';::-~t~ ',. ,~ property in que:~+ion here :':,.'.?".'...' C:,hF;iZ-.':I.' ];'~', ;~-:ovc. tha't ~oe adopt a reso].ution authorizing Chal~hassen Public ~ .. r..i . ~"'' ' '''l fli L".) .- ...... , ..:,:-,,::...,' . ,.-tit ;z.:'e c.c:r.ain Stat:.: owned houses in tho City of Cl~arlhaSsen .r-.-,i' t. 'F,_~'[ nl'119 RnsoIL'tion ~90-65.' Haycr Chmiel moved, Councilman Workman seconded to adopt a ~..-~ ~,.~ , ==,~ ....._-'.o~, cuthorizlng Chanhassen Publlc Safety Oepartment to use certain State auned houses in the City of Chanhassen for training purposes. All voted in faro;- and the motion carried. Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Johnson seconded adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at