1990 06 04CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
JUNE 4, 1990
Mayor Chmlel called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m.. The meetlng was opened
wlth the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Boyt, Councilman Workman,
Councilwoman 0imler and Councilman Johnson
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Elliott Knetsch, Gary Warren, Todd Gerhardt, Paul
Krauss, and Jo Ann 01sen
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilwoman Dlmler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
approve the agenda with the following additions under Council Presentations:
Mayor Chmiel added an item on the Association of Municipalities; Councilman
Johnson added discussion of the completeness of the U.S. Census in Chanhassen;
Councilman Boyt added trall referendum; and Councilman Workman added Minnesota
River/Met Council. All voted in favor of the agenda as amended and the motion
carrled.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilwoman Dlmler moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to
approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendations:
b. Resolution ~0-56: Approve Cooperative Agreement with MnOot for Trunk
Highway 5 Improvements, Project 88-28A.
f. Approve Settlement Agreement with City of Shoreuood for Assessments on
Church Road Improvement Project 87-5.
g. Approve Settlement Agreement wlth Albert Dorweller for Assessments on Bluff
Creek Drive Improvement Project
h. Approve Consultant Agreement for Lake Susan Park Improvement Project 89-6.
j. Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Amend Sections 20-30 and 20-g03 of the City
Code pertaining to Recording of Permlts and Zoning lots, Flnal Readlng.
k. Approv~]. of Accounts.
1. City Council Minutes dated May 14, 1990
Joint City Council/HRA Minutes dated May 7, 1990
PI. arming Commission Hlnutes dated May 16, 1990
m. Resolution ~90-57: Accept Roadway Improvements in Pheasant Hill 2nd and 3rd
Additions, Project 86-1.
All voted in favor and the motlon carried.
Ci~ty Cot.thc:j1 H~e'~ng -- ,Jt.tYie ,4, .1.990
D. APPROVE REVISED SPECIFICATIONS FOR MURRAY HILL WATER TOWER REHABILITATION
AND PAINTING PROJECT 89-24; AUTHORIZE ADVERTISING FOR BIDS.
[:ounci]man Workman: T. asked Gary a lot of questions today but not this one. Z
,apolog.ize. It so~Lnds ].ike if we're going to go ahead and just clean this tower
of i.l."s obvlous dirt and mildew. How much is that going to cost? Is that worth
o~mr white i:o do that at this point of' does that tower look okay and we should
maybn put the t,Jhole thing off or is washing Jt going to.
~af-y Warren: Cleaning of the exterior is a small dollar amount. We didn't have
thni. broker, out sepa'rately in the bicl but I know it's a small dollar amount.
Tho frlteriof oF thc.,, tar~k would actually be sand blasted and painted and that
c:e.i't,'~i~ly .is warranted fl'om out' inspection report.
Councilman Worknlan: Oh the interlor still is going to be?
Gary Warren: Y~atl, the ~nterlor is conflned obviously so to blow the dust and
c:v,:';,">:l'll[~9 elsie can be confined and collected properly so the interior ls still
sr;I,eduled ~o be painted and restored.
cO~.l, nciln,,.~n Workman' So really getting them up there to wash it really isn't
more?
I~a'r'y Warren.' Yeah, it's a minor expense. The Clty of Edlna just did it on one
of the. Jr' i.¢.rlk~ because they were out there as well and some of the local
i"esi(lents have commented to me that they were encouraged to hear that at least
,~e ,.,~ei'¢..,. goJ. r,g to do that. To get the mildew off of
COl~llC:J. lman Workman: T toould move approval.
Coltr~c~ lwoman R~ln] et-: Second.
.C.o~nci.]nlan Johnson: Olde nlore question. It looks like we test sandblasted an
ai'ea then tested the sandblast, Bid we ever test the actual palnt to see what
percent le..ad was itl 'the actual palnt? See how we met those criteria?
Gary Warren: No, I don't believe that we actually tested the palnt although I'd
have to check with olmr consultant on it. PC.A criteria was w.~th the blastlrlg
..'.~and .'-~ee.~.r,g that would be the [~ltimate material to be dlsposed of.
Counc:ilman .]ohnsorl~ R.~.cause here they're talking about 5% and in the crlteria
fhmt wa:s g~verl and everything, .it talks about the percent of paint. Percent of
l~.,.ad in the paint and distance to houses and stuff 11ke that whether you have to
u~,r, l l-,~:.~ ::f'¢toria. ~hen you get looking at 3 part per milllon of lead in the
final, dltS[, and that's in the actual dust. When you actually look at the
m'T.!.l~g~'ams per cubic meter and all that good stuff of actual exposure to the
n.,:ighborhood, lt's going to be miniscule. I'm wondering if we've done our
homework enough here to say we do have enough of a problem to where we can't go
ahead with ti~is project. To me Z d~dn't see the numbers there.
6;,'my N~arce:rl.' The numbers are one thing. The advice that we have from Jack
6ouinr who:s been act.ire in this area very strongly throughout the State and
H~,.'lwe..~:t has heerl that the PCA wllt actually, if a complaint is issued okay?
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
Councilman Johnson: Rlght.
Gary Warren: If a complaint is issued, the PCA will come out and will just
~utright stop the operation regardless of the lead content because their
policles right now, they're runnlng a blt scared perhaps at thls tlme or
whatever. If a complaint ls issued, their response to that right now is to shut
the operation down.
Councilman Johnson: Without any air sampling to see if we meet the National
Standards for lead?
Gary Warren: That's correct. Without any sampling and your next option is then
you've got a tank that's half blasted on the outside and you're going to have to
go to some real extreme measures to flnlsh it up.
Councilman Johnson: Well the other option is to do the monitoring while you do
the blastlng to where if they come out we say we've got our monitoring data. We
meet the National Standards. There is no problem here. They would have a hard
tlme shuting us down if we had that data.
Gary Warren: We weighed the expense of doing anything extreme at this time and
figured at least we could get the lnside of the tank taken care of and we would
have some time here to let them sort through their regulations and make some
~ense out of lt.
Councilman Johnson: I mean we're just puttlng you off is what I want to make
s~re.
Mayor Chmiel: So we know exactly what we're doing.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Oimler seconded to approve the revised
spec[fications for Hurray Hill Water Tower rehabilitation and painting project
89-24 and authorize advertising for bids. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
VISITOR PRESENTATION: None.
AWARD OF BIDS: LAKE DRIVE EAST FROM DAKOTA AVENUE TO DELL ROAD IMPROVEMENT
PROJECT 89-6.
Gary Warren: Mr. Mayor, the Lake Drive East project from Dakota Avenue to Dell
Read, we opened bids back in April and they've been ualting basically on MnOot
to come across with their cooperative agreement for thelr share of the
construction project funds. As was just approved in the consent agenda, that
document now ls in place so the Counc11 can go forward ulth awarding the
project. The blds were very competitive. Fortunately they came in under the
engineer's estlmate and we are recommending award of the bid to Northdale
Construction who ue are very familiar with from our Lake Orive project and low
bidder on our Country Hospitality Suites project. The actual amount of the
award we've modified somewhat to recognize some quantity differences in the bid
proposal. The actual amount of the award is for $719,802.59.
Ci. ty C()ul~ci. 1 i'leetin9 -- June 4, 1990
Resc~lutio, ~90-58: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to
award the bid for the Lake Drive East Street and Utillty Improvement Project
89-6 t.o the firm of Northdale Construction Company in the amount of $719,802.59.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
REJECT ~IDS, UTILITY TELEMETRY SYSTEM, AUTHORIZE PREPARATION OF REVISED
SPECZFICATIONS.
Cou;,ci]man JohnF~o~; £an I move approval?
~Ollymc:jJwoi~all Dimlei-: T'd like to hear the benefits.
Johnson: Okay.
Co~tr,:'..'ilmcn Workman: I'1]. second that so Gary can discuss it.
6.,try Warr~.rl: ~ t.h.i, nk we're ali. very ll~terested in seeing the utility telemetry
.';>':,%~:~.iTi i.~cka~,') I. Ilat we've budgeted here get in place. Nobody's more anxious
~i'~n my.self and :erry Boucher our utility superintendent to see that we do this
:~o ~. ~:.~ k:ind of a h~rrl decision here for us to actually recommend rejecting
tl,~ b~d~. However, for the ].ong ternl beneflt of the city as far as thls system
;Ts c:ol~¢:e'rned and r(:¢:ognizlng the importance of it, there were a couple of 1terns
that became .-,pparent as we got into the actual bldding and worked wlth the
l:~../,~.J~i-.~ ~...: f~r as alternatives that mlght be availab].e to us for consideration
:~l.tch as 'radio telemetry instead of the telephone system. We therefore thought
· ;t'. l:,e..;,t :in .1;.ght oF the process here to reject the bids and put together a
.!.j. tl.l.e bll nlOre comp'cehens~ve package. Z personally was down last week to look
.,,t 3~,.rnsv:T1].e's system and it's been qulte helpful to us to get ~ little bit
','~,'.'tter perspective of what ls available to us out there. So in order to
:.::.:,.~]ttate the teleme, try system or excuse me, the radio system, we need to do a
l.',,'opc.~gatJon s[udy of the wavelengths to actually look at our monitoring
lo¢:at~ons a.~.: it relates ~o longitude and latitude and where we would be picking
ti'into up and ~lso tl~e topography and thls has been done successfully in
r41.trnsvi].le by some subcontractors that are also mentioned here in the packet.
O'rlCO lhat i.s done, then we wlll have a good handle as to the radlo capability
':,¢,' :.I;~: sy.stenl. ~¢.. bc..~ieve the rellabltity of the wavel, ength. It's not your
standard radlo .system here. Thls lsa very directional peak in the hlgh
'F'req..~er~¢'.y :.~ys:t¢.m.. The t:;.me that you need the system most is the time when the
phOrlC. 11,'let: typical].y I~ave some problems or we're vulnerable to contractor
I.;','oblem~ wlth phone lines so we believe that that lsa very key element that we
waist, f.o reinvestigate and we expect to have the blds modlfied by the end of this
i~,(',l~Li~ so we'd be I~ack on the s~reet and possibly have it still completed this
y~aT'.
Mayo',- ghm.ie].: ~ood. .~'m hopeful that we will. That that's going to eliminate
,~ l~,t of al'fLy.lng around to each location and checking them out and it's golng to
save. time ai~rl money for us. When you're posing thls, as Z look at lt, once
you'vr~ come ~tl~ with yo~m.f- conclusions are we going to look at a Cadillac or a
Cl',,.~vrolet? Oon't t~].] me an Oldsmobile.
Coui',o';lman Johr, sorl; With an AM/FM stereo.
City Council Meeting - 3une 4, 1990
Gary Warren: With an AM/FM stereo. There are some things that come with the
basic system. The biggest impact costwise to the system here would be if we can
go radio. The radlos, because of they go for about $2,000.00 per station so
we're probably looking at a $50,000.00 increase to the proposal right now. That
lsa system however that uhen we look at the long range operation or maintenance
standpoint, life cycle costs of the system, the cost that we get hit from the
telephone company for havlng the telephone lines ls pretty excessive on a
monthly basis as well so long range the radio investment should be a better
return for the Clty even though there would be better up front capital cost.
would conslder that closer to a Cadillac system when you talk about the
telemetry aspect but from what the system wlll be doing, I think that we'll be,
I uould say mlddle of the road system. We're not getting all the bells and
whistles. We dld flnd out whlch addresses your point Mr. Mayor, the Burnsvllle
system has a dlscreet dialer. That's a $5,000.00 unit basically that allows
when a fallure alarm comes in, allows the pager to be dlaled up in a prlorlty
rating and specifically give a message to our on call person as to what pump
station or well specifically has the problem so what we had in the orignal spec.
was basically just a failure notlce. They would have to come and check out the
system and find out where the problems are so that will definitely enhance our
response time to the speclfic slte uhen we have a call.
Mayor Chmiel: Good.
Councilwoman Oimler: Could I just ask Gary one more question?
Mayor Chmiel: Sure.
Councilwoman Dimler: What are our neighboring towns doing like Eden Prairie,
Chaska, Shakopee, Minnetonka?
Gary Warren: As far as systems of this nature?
Councilwoman Oimler: Yeah. Are we going to have the best system around?
Gary Warren: I would say that we always do things right here in the City but
it's the trend of the majority of the cities. Burnsville just added theirs.
Crystal. Edina. They're all getting to this because of the efficiencies.
Counciluoman Oimler: This is the state of the art?
Gary Warren: Well it's state of the art to a certain extent in that the
nlicrochip world has finally caught up with us here but it also will allow us to
do things from an operation standpoint as far as even doing energy shavlng
conservation as far as our us11 operations and seeing some paybacks by entering
into some agreements.
Councilwoman Oimler: So in the long run it's going to save us money in
operation but cost us more up front?
Gary Warren: I would say that's a fair statement.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion? Hearing none, I'll entertain a motion
which ls here on the floor wlth a motlon and a second.
Ci~.y Council. I'le,'~ting .- June 4, 1990
Resolution ~90-59: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
~ject the April 27, 1990 bids received for the sewer and water automatic
monitoring and alarm system and to authorize John BuBois to commence with an
evaluation of the radio communications aspects to support the radio telemetry
system as quoted in his May 23, 1990 proposal. It is further approved to
authorize the firm of OSM to proceed with the preparation of the revised bidding
documents for this project in accordance with their Nay 24, 1990 proposal. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
APPOINTHENT TO HOUSING AND REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY.
T~',~I(.I G¢:,'r"h,~'rdt: Mr. Mayor, Council. At the last Council meeting staff was
JL;'ccted to ask the city Attorney to provide an opinion in regards to the
,:{;,po;.nt,r,¢r,~'. of a City Council member to the HRA board and with that member being
,.~[;.po~.n't. ed. would his term coincide with the term of office as a City Council
m¢*.mb~...;-'_ The opinion of the City Attorney is that the term can be made to
coincide with the term of office of the City Council and the HRA. It's under
lt~nr,~.sota Housir, g and Redevelopment Authority ~ct, the Hayer is responsible for
,.~ppoJ. nting an individual to the HRA with City Council approval.
H,':.;,:o, Ci,nlJo].: R~ght. We discussed this last time some and I'm going to throw
.;",'. h~,,cl.: op,;n fo~' any nlore discussion.
.'.;'c-ul,ci]m,'~r, 3ohr, son' Well one thing, Cliff was asking to have a short term along
!~i';.h a new person to work ir, a new chairman. I think that we need at least 2
~:cur, cil member.'-; at any time on this board and that their term on the board
:-..hoHld coincide with their term on the Council. That's pretty close for Tom.
;',-::'.'..' .',]~-':~.,:~Jy ¢~ssigned and I think a new one should go that way. I'd like to see
u..~ ,'~ppoint one of ourselves here and at this point I'd like to suggest that the
Ita?'o~- :~tggest himself and that we also suggest that the HRA ask Cliff to be a
special, advis:or to them J.n a non-voting role on the commission but to assist
~.,,;.t',', t i',.¢: commission. He has so much information and so much knowledge of HRA
~:.,,,J .,.[~rf -[hat I'd ]Jke [o see him stay around a little longer to help with the
t'rgf,:;jl:iof~. I-lc has said he's not interested J.n ,.~ full 5 year term but I can't
~:.?¢. I,ou ue car, give him a J. year term because that's not within the perview of
5t.:..t~ stCttule unless he's a City Councll member. So that's my discussion.
,_.Ol.,~(l:ilNK)m,.~n Dimler: If the Hayer' would like to do it, I'd second that
r:our~ci].man Johnson; Well, I'm not maki[,g a motion. It's only a suggestion.
chmie!; As I mentioned the last time that I'd be more than willing to
or, Jr. I need just one ,,ore particular commission to serve on for
uome.'Lhing to do but that's besides the point. It's what I feel should be done
do Ilaves at least the overview of what's really happening and get those
~,:.~rtZ~;It],-~'m- opinions. So ~ would make that suggestion. Bi117
,..uunc;]ma,'~ 8oyt: Well I would encourage you to withdraw your nomination for a
COL'plo. of ,-easons. One of them and probably the most important one is that in
Hr-. Wh.(tehill you have someone who's been with this process from sort of the
fir~-'.t t~'r'ick b,~.~ng knocked down ii] the city. He b'r'ings a great deal of
expc. rjellce outside the City into the negotiation process and though he
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
occasionally misses a meeting, you can't replace that experience. An equally
j. mportant reason is that he wants to continue to serve.
Councilman Johnson: But he's asked for I year.
Councilman Boyt: That's not a problem. Anyone can resign from the Housing and
Redevelopment Authority anytlme they want to resign. Whether he wants to be on
it 1 year or whether he wants to be on it $ years, the key is that the gentleman
has given a great deal of hls tlme and effort to thls. He's currently chairing
thr HRA and to not reappoint him I think is inappropriate so I could encourage
you to move hls replacement.
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess in answer to that I would like to say that I know
he's a busy man and he's most of the meetings in the last year. I think he's
done a terrific job but I thlnk he's probably too busy to continue. I wouldn't
].ike to see us appoint him for just one year. It's too disruptive.
Councilman Workman: I'd echo Jay's comments. I don't think we have to rip
somebody down like Cliff Whitehill to say thank you. You've done a great job
but 1 year doesn't interest us perhaps. I don't think that has to be an
indictment on his abilities over the past years but I think that would, by going
Bill by your route would I think short slght what I think the Mayor can brlng to
the HRA and I think we've got 3 other people on the HRA that have been there an
awful long tlme so there ls continuity.. $o I see that as, I don't need to tell
Cliff Whitehill that he's worthless that's for sure.
Mayor Chmiel: No, Cliff has done an excellent job I agree.
CounciJ. nlan Workman: And so I think we can move ahead with, if Cliff wants to
help LIs in that capacity. I've been on the HRA since August. I think I've
atterlded all but one HRA meeting since then and I've only been at 2 with Cliff
and so he ls busy and so I think ue can still get hls expertise perhaps without
him having to be a voting member of the commission.
Mayor Chmiel: We have that motion on the floor to appoint the mayor onto the
HRA wlth the assist of Cliff Whitehill if he so desires to assist us by sitting
there to provide his expertise and hls knowledge lnto the decislon making that
ue wi~l do. It's been moved and seconded.
Resolution ~90-60: Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to
appoint Hayor Chmiel to the Housing and Redevelopment Authority and to ask for
Cliff Whitehill's assistance in consulting on HRA matters. Councilman Workman,
Councilwoman Oimler and Councilman Johnson voted in favor. Councilman Boyt voted
in opposition and Hayor Chmiel abstained. The motion carried with a vote of 4
to 1.
City Cou.cil Meeting -June 4, 1990
NORTHWEST NURSERY LOCATED AT 7801 GREAT PLAINS BLUD:
WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT FOR THE ALTERING AND FILLING OF A CLASS B
WETLAND.
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR THE EXPANSION OF THE WHOLESALE NURSERY.
i";¢'>:or C;,mi(.l: 3o Ar, n, would you like to cover item (a) First?
.Ts. ¢-nn .¢.Ise:~: Sktr'~:~ The wetland alteration permit and it was recommended that
;;' lie t,.',b1.c-d. That ),o acLion be taken because the plan that had been submitted
;.,.~'..'~ not complete. Tile proposed expansion does not require any wetland
,~.!t,=_r,~tion ~::rmit=s so it's really up to the applicant whenever he wants to
i~rsuo [he i;onding that he can come forward agaln with the wetland alteration
:.,:-:,",¢,Zt s:,:) i. hero's re6tlly Tie action to take on that other than to recommend
tak, ling it.
M,~ ?ol- Chmiel: Okay.
Johnson: There's a hand in the audience up too.
,!jm M¢]son: I'm a part owner in Northwest Nursery Wholesale and to just give
yc,~z ,:: little, bit of background on why.
~l:~yo~' Chmiel: Would yOLt like to come up to the microphone please and indicate
yo~i- f'mam~ and your address?
Jim klilsor,: $~'r'e. Jim Wilson and I'm with Northwest Nursery Wholesale, 9150
oi'ea~ Plea. ins Blvd.~ Ny pa~'tner Hark VanHoef who usually appears before the
P]~nr, jng Commission or Council is out of town so I've had to show up and just to
'3;',',~ '..'omt .:~ li'Ltle bit of background on this. The reason why the wetland
.~].t.~)-at. io)'~ po~'mlts have been put on hold ls back in I belleve it was October or
m,~;yl,~-, e,.,r-:n prlor to that, it was recommended to us by Jo Ann 01sen, the planner,
that we come fo)'uard with a total plctLtre if you u111. An ultlmate plan.
2¢,ndf),g 1:'~ desirr;,:l by us down the road in the future. However, we're tree
f;-;rm~:)'s, We've had 2 years of drought. We're not a highly profitable business.
These type of plans cost a lot of money. We've already spent some $10,000.00
~>lLts in uorking with areas that we've had to work ulth which we'll get 1rite
t[~irmk at a lat. ef- time tonight orm the conditional use permit. So at this tlme I
guess ~de do not want to pursue the pondlng until a later date so we'll do
,.J~,~.~¢e~' is ~'eqttJred as faf' ,'as the U.S. Fish and Wildlife or whatever agencies
A~: ',hL~t. ~inme. Any pending that we want to do is to enhance the slte. To
· TmF.f'~,,,,;: hh~ uetJ.af)d:=~ if that wlll impf-ove the wetlands. I'm not 100~ sure.
;',ct ,~',m agen[ of the wildlife d~vlslon but I would thlnk that it uould and at a
].,;.tef date maybe ue uill pursue that so I hope that gives you a 11ttle blt of
w~m;.' ua don't want to get lnto the wetland alteration. It's from a financial
,.:;t,~n(ll'~oint right now.
H¢>'o~- Chm~el: .~o Ann, do you see any problems with that?
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
Councilm~n Johnson: I still have a question. I've questioned this for a the
last several years since you first brought it up 3 or 4 years ago I guess it
was. I still am unclear why you want the pond. I mean it's not within view of
your operations per se.
Jim Wilson: oh, it's within view of our operation.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, in the back view.
Jim Wilson: If we could use it for irrigation purposes let's say or just to
c. pen it up to make the site from an appearance standpoint. We're a nursery.
Councilman Johnson: You would not be allowed to withdraw water for irrigation
purposes.
.Tim Wilson: Oh I don't know that. I don't know that. I really don't know.
HainIy we wanted to put the ponds in to enhance the site. Right now if you
~ould come down and visit the slte and see what that wetlands is, it's a up
unti! just recently it's been a dried up marsh. There is no real water in the
thing.
Councilman Johnson: Normally there is. I'm fairly familiar with that wetlands.
S to 4 years ago there was but they're not open water.
Jim Wilson: No, I've been there for 5 years. This is my sixth year there.
There's never been any standing water in that wetland other than the very
northwest corner where somebody threw some dynamite out there years ago and blew
a big ho].e there and it's just a little puddle out there. The rest of it up
until, we could still walk across it rlght now. It is'not, there's no ducks.
Tl~ere's no geese in there and what we would like to do eventually, if we're
al. lowed to, is enhance the look of thls site for our customers to come in there
znd scm trees around a pond. Water, trees, those kind of things go together.
Enhancement of the slte. We don't need it for irrigation. We have two wells on
t~,a site that are sufficing our irrigation needs right there. It's enhancement
of the site.
Co~lncilman Johnson: Just a visual enhancement?
..~ W~Ison: We don't need it now so that's why we're putting it on hold. Like
I said, it was suggested your total plan or your ultimate goal of this property
so we put that in there and I guess at this time we can't afford to get into the
type of planning that's necessary so we'd like that just set aside for rlght
nOW.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. I don't think we have to have any action on it
specific.
Councilman Workman: But Jo Ann, didn't they encroach on a wetland outside of
the conditional use?
Jo Ann Olsen: No. Not uithln the wetland. It was, that's a Class B wetland
~ro~l, TH 101 over to the larger Class A wetland and they were never within that.
They were on the edge of it.
£o~:,',,;i]r~:.-tn ..~,:,hnson: Doesn't that require a wetland alteratioi~ permit to do the
f.f.]l u.i.~h:ir~ 7..~ feet?
Jo ~4.),n Olden: Nc,. The ordinanc:e is only for a Class A wetland within 200 feet.
:::.:'ui,.::.;.ima~,~ .tfohn:aon: only J.f you're within a Class
,,...: m,--..,": :,,~, k,r~,,,, We ye discussed altering Class B wetlands before.
¢~..,,.,'~,':'tl. rr.,an Jollnson: Yeah, but they didn't alter' the wetland per se. They're
.:.'.'.:.-':'.. -:!.,~::-, to
.;,:; .*,r::', ..'.']:-:,~n; Th,:'.y're close to
~o:t,~e±];r,.::'., I,.;:>rl4marl' So close to it is okay blat not in it?
..., o:; Tii,'~-:.~ another-point I'd like to bring up that I think there's
.:;t.;l! .-., mJ..'::conc:cl.)tion of ~¢here this ~etland is. The B. ge're pretty confident
~'a i...~,:)~,¢ ,,¢~t','¢ ti,~¢ 4 is but I think there's some misconception as to exactly
~,;'.,¢-':,: t.h,:t 0 i.;:. No~ like I say, I haven't been on top of (his 100~ of the time
'.'¢~,~. ~e f,,::d .t .Jerry Smith ~ho ~as ~ith the 4rmy Corps of Engineers come out and
~,,,:.]':~ th:~ ::.~ts. Right behind him my partner Hr. VanHoef followed him ~ith stakes
.t:-,d pL'.1, tli,9 ;-:l:ake~, iht,3 I. he ground and ~e outlined the Class B ~etland.
~.,:,me of th~. s:takes al'e still there. Some al-en't. That ~as a couple years ago.
t.~. uou. ldc. et'ta~n].y like to get somebody o~tt there because ~e do ~ant to plant
~o,,e ~.f'~;~;,:4. ge ~,~ant to make use of some good agricultural ground that ~ould be
a,-; f.l,.e r. ds~: :::o befo~'e we do th;t ~.¢e are going to have ~hatever ruling authority
on ~.hat ,::ome out and help us stake that out. Believe me, ~e don't ~ant to fill
i~, ,;...:,>. ~;::.~l,~.nd¢:.. t.~e don't ~ant to ruin any land. If you people ~ould have come
'Jp f. heFe ~,nd ~:3en t. hat in 1985 ~hat that site looked like, I ~ish I had pictures
no~ of tl,al, pi. Ace. It ~as ~ run do~l'~, dilapitated farm. Junk p~led in spots
,~.:;,! I']]. tell you, my partner and I were besides ourselves when ~e've got to go
c}',,~ tl~r-'r-r.': Lo f~]. in a gopher hole we've got to get 8 permit for grading ~nd
'~'g!]~.hO yoU, jt.'s f~-ustratJ, n9. Really frustrating. ~e are in the nursery
3.,¢:~;~c'-s~.:. ~e grow trees. Z thLnk it's an honorable professlon. ~t's needed.
,-.~.,',~-'.,,_,.. d;-~;Zr¢~, ti'ces.. They desire beauty. L2ke Z sa~d, we'll put a pond
b~/trlt to ~nhance t',~t property. ~h~t would Z want to make a junk pile out of ~t
fm'e ~',], in the nursery bus,ness. People that come to me as customers want to
~[;;., t~-e¢}:~ to ¢o c~ut arid landscape properties. ~ha( would Z u~nt to make it
Ha/or Chmio]'. I don't think ~nyone is indicating that.
........ ..::~ , b;e.,] v ].1 trill you, we're feeling that that's, any time we move.
'.,'~,~;' dourl ~i~.o~u'' building. We do a little bit of filling irm. We're encroaching
.... &:lc. '.;.
H,.~y,'.,¥' Chmiel: That's part of our...
';::, ',:il.:.:,'.,:-.' % c.:.~, come over here and show you where they dug out a pond and
t:~.:y ],3f't a 1L'f.~]e island. There's geese nesting in there. There's families of
:)~-,es..'-. Ti,at'.,'; what T'd like. There's no geese over in that wetland. There's
'n,) ali:c:!.::;. There':'¢ nothing there. Pheasants, they were there because it was dry
10
city council Meeting - June 4, 1990
bi~ now they're drowned out and I'll tell you it's.
£ounci].woman Dimler: We sense your frustration.
5Jm Wilson: Yes, I apologize. I'll try not to get carried away.
H~y(~r Chmie]: Necessary functions unfortunate of the City.
Ji~ Wilson: But that's what we're trylng to do. Honest to goodness and I wish
T had the pictures but we didn't take the pictures and lt's unfortunate. But
anything we're dolng over there believe me, we're doing to lmprove the site.
mean ~'m not in the junk business.
Councilman Johnson: So we should move to table rlght now?
Councilwoman Oimler: Second.
Jo Ann O]sen: It mlght even be better if the applicant just withdraw that
application right now.
M~yor Chmiel: Okay, you have a cholce of withdrawing that application if you so
desi~-e.
Jim Wi].son: I thlnk at thls t/me that's what we'd like to do.
Councilman Johnson: Ooes he get a refund of his permit fees, etc. if he
withdraws?
Jo ~nn 01sen: That's up to you.
Councilman Johnson: I know you guys have spent a lot of staff time.
HAyol' ChmieJ' Let's open Council discussion.
COUrlcilman Johnson: I think we need some more information as far as many hours
of st~ff time has been in here as far as our cost that we've incurred on this
we;']ar, d ~lteration permit.
N~,/or Chmiel: Normally in processes we have not been refunding.
C,}uncilman Johnson: If we table, it continues.
M~yor Chmiel: What was the cost?
.3o Ann 01sen: $150.00.
£ouncilman Johnson: I'm sure we've got more than $150.00 worth of staff tlme.
H~ycr Chmlel: I'm sure. I'm sure. There's been a lot of time involved by staff
aith that but 1f you would 11ke to, as you have made that request, ue u111
withdraw that.
2im Wilson: Okay. At this time we'd like to do that, yes.
11
$ou'..',cilman ~oyt: Why can't we table it?
Ro~'..,c;.].man Johnson' If he withdraws it, he loses his $150.00.
a::,'~r,r:ilma;, Ooyt: I nlOVe to table because it doesn't make any sense to bill the
,~',io.le city f~,r tl~is.
;"iay,~" C. hmiel; What you're saying ls if we table lt, he's not going to lose his
:~.~ 5..3. ~(i ..
£~.'.~:r,c'..'lman ~oyt.' The City 'retalns the money if it'.°, tabled.
c.:'...,tn.~i.lmar~ 3ohnson: We~l we haven't said we're going to give it back to then, if
C~ur,¢;i].m,~,l~ Royt~ t,'.e typically do.
..".~.~ Ann o]sen: Tt doesn't make any difference.
.H,~y.:.:;~ .rt.h,l.~.c. 1 :. No,
;.~.:,','-A=.~h,..~o'rth~- Z belleve there may have been one situation where there was a
:.-~l:.,'.'.c..i~.l r~ques;t. ~ other words, the individual had made a position. Showed a
?,,~,.~,:.1 and t~ h~dll't dor, e that much with it and there was a refund. I mean
,.-..,ener,~].!y ~.,~'; don't 'r'ofund.
~ounci.lman Johnson: Z only 'remember one where we actually refunded the money.
Ti; wa.~;; al', ~!,c',/vidua]_ and i~ wa~ ~ometh~ng like a deck or something.
s:o,ir;c/!m:~n ~oyt' t~e.tl t. here ~as this garage over here on Frontier Trail just
-~ ;~.'~ 7g~~', ~"~-e t ,~n.d t~ brought it in and ~t failed and ~e returned his
'.~. .~'. _,. o~. 0
~,on~-~y- ~',~,~ many of these things have come in ~here they're been ~ithdra~n.
The~ :~'r., bec-n a fe~. ~r'e you telllrmg me that we've historically kept those
Fi~.ir, g fe,s.s wl'm~:n p~ople have withdrawn thelr application? Z don't thlnk we
5,.~ Ann nts:e~m: When lt's withdrawn before we've ~ritten reports and dorme the
put~11c: fmea~ings anti things like that.
Councilman ~oyt: So our plan ~ould then be to keep the fees, is that your
t
Hayor ~hmiet: Yep,
co,,nc::;lwomar, Oim].eY-: Is that okay with you?
)~,'~yor chmi~l~ Alr~.ght~ Tha~'~ the normal way of doing busine~
t~,at ~'m ~ua,-e and in other ti. ties as well.
C~:tnc1]~onman 01ruler: Well maybe the applicant would rather have us table it
~ ~el'i.
~i~., ~.J;lson: In tabllng it what would happen then?
12
cfr>' Cottr~cil Meeting - June 4, 1990
Co~ncilman Johnson: Then the fee stays until it's brought back up.
.lj~ ~;lsonr Okay, then I guess we would like it tabled then is what we would
like because based on what else happens tonight, ue may go ahead in the near
fL)t).~r'~. ~t's raining now. The drought may be over. People are starting to buy
~rees. W8 might make enough money.
Cour, cilwon,an Dimler: Well then I'll table.
Councilman Johnson: Then I'll second both your motions to table.
Councilwoman Dimler moved, CounciZman 3ohnson seconded to table the wetZand
alteration permit for the altering and filling of a Class B wetland for
Northwest Nursery Wholesale. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Hayor Chmiel: Okay, item (b).
Jo Ar,n Olsen: As far as the expansion of the conditional use permit, in the
~-eport us'ye pretty much in depth have gone through all the issues that were
~,..-.~ - ~ .~
:=.,~,~ l,~st year. As far as the Planning Commission did review the conditional
Li~ poi-~it for the expansion and recommended approval with staff's conditions.
Th..;, J)s¢ added two conditions. Added to one and added another one stating that
on 12 [h~re should be no, that the applicant shall receive and comply with all
~.oF, ditjons of the wetland alteration permit prior to creation of the proposed
;)on¢ s~L Forth on the plans. They say that approval of the conditional use
p~'~,lt i.s not approval of the proposed ponds. The Planning Commission also
~dd.~d 13 stating that no planting, storage or other disturbances of the Class A
ti- ¢~;~ B wetland shall be permitted without application and it says or and it
should say and receipt of all proper wetland permits. Now the Planning
CommissioFi added these conditions just to make it clear that if there was any
alteration in the future, that they would still have to go through the wetland
alteratior~ permit. Staff has been working closely with the applicant to have
them come into compliance with the original conditional use permit and then to
g~t a final plan on what it actually was that they wanted to do in the future.
We're comfortable with what they're proposing and that it still really meets a
~ho]esa]e nursery. We've also been working very closely with them on the
drab. nags problems where it was going to the east, to Kevin Finger's property.
T~. fact the>, already have done the ditch along TH 101 with HnDot and they've
sodded that and are paving the driveway to resolve ail those issues and putting
~r~ ,~ holding pond. So we're comfortable with what they're proposing and what
thsy')-e dOirlg on site. We feel that they have complied with a lot of our
)'~qu~sts. The only other outstanding issues where there's all the conditions
but one of the major ones is the filling that's still taking place like with the
~codchips on the north side of the site and a condition of that that they have
to stabilize that and pull it back. Other than that we are recommending
3. pi.,~-,~v~',..! ~i.t: the conditions in the staff report with that change to number 13.
Cour~cilwoman Oimler: Jo Ann number 2, does that date need to be changed or has
that non-conforming shade...
.l¢ Ann Olsen: Actually I haven't been out. I know they were dismantling it.
Wilson: It is down except for the posts which.
13
C:t), Co,.thc;Ti .gcetinO '-3uno 4, 1990
3,) .,,,~n Olsc:n The roof part which they...
~...$,",;'~ All the Fool and everything, ue left some posts up in case it gets
9 I, ~
';-.',:a, ,;o~ ]~ July before we build our other. We haven't had the additional shade
st;-~c:tur~:~ h~ven't been approved so in case of real hot weather, if it ever does
. .: ~" '-,,. .-. .. :.J::'~,~ be able to put a cloth type of shade clotfm up there just on a real
:,i :. ':. .'.. ,~ t e:;ml~,o~-a~y ba.=lo.
:.:c.-tt,',~:i]uoman Dimler: Do you want to change the date to something else?
.~:~ Ahrl O[.se~l: %t ~night bo good to give them time so.
£ct[ncil~oman Dimler: Is July 1 Okay7
,~-'.,,,, Wilson: As to what now?
Cn~;;.nilwoman Dimler: It says here 3uno 1, 1990 as the date by which that has to
!)-:. C'~ 0 td 7i
.?..'.,~ !.;i.l.-::on: 'r.t J.s down. There's no roof on it. It's some posts in the ground
'::': ,.~:] ":: is.
:'s.;tnc.':.lm,-.'n .lo[Jr, son: ~ell Jf you throw that cloth back LIp you've created a new
::~i',3.¢!~' :'JIVItCl'ttl~Q without a permanent roof.
,',"._:~; [J~l:;on: Well if you call putting up a piece of, a shade, a tarp is
h,'-.',:~:.i~",::iJ. 7 what it is. It's 50~ shade cloth.
2,:;,;~ci]m,.gll .7c, hn:,on,' It becomes a structure.
.Yj.m -;lfl. son: ¢oes it? I don't know what the building code is as far as a
n.[-ru c [tt'm-_~.
Ro,~rlc~lman Johnson: What'd you have up there before?
..~i~: ~Ji;:.c;':' U.'z11 bat:it:ally what it was is some posts. 4 x 4 posts on about 8
,;-,-- i? foot center's and then across the top they were maybe, depending on the
<l,.'a:t.:.., anT,~i~:::,-:: from 8 feet to about 10 feet off the ground. There was a 2 x 8
· h¢,~?v~ c.r 2 x tO that went all the way around and then was used as joist and
t~.cr, on ~o~, of that wac enow fence and there was your shade structure. That uae
:;.;- .~nd ~. uae a r, on-conforming structure because i[ was set. ~s a matter of
F,.'.ct part of J.l..[.s uith.i.n the legal setback and part of it wasn't but in order
~.; t,~;;f' ,x':~y par;. of 5t down, the whole thing had to co,me doun so we removed a
u[,nle, ,xl!. the jo.[st.~: are off. All it is is a matter of some 4 x 4 posts set
about, t2 fe~.~t on center still in the ground and as soorm as ue get approval on
~;,:., ofhei- ;;bade structure, I've got a couple other ideas to put it in a
ec.~i}m)l;.ral7 different location so it's absolutely hidden from the road and ue get
':~¢:f ~m;.., then I gue~,:; ue don't need the posts and ue can pull them out of there.
oo~ don'~ know, I can live uith July 1 or July 15tim, something like that I
14
Meeting - June 4, 1990
Councilwoman Dimler: How about, shall we move it to July lst?
.7i.:~ I,Ii).son' If there's no other questions from the Council on these
~-~..comn, end~tions, these conditions, I just have a couple of comments and some
questions on them myself if this is a proper time to bring them up.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah I think it is Jim only because of the fact this may
:?];mJ. nate some of the frustrations'that you may have. We understand what that
conditJ, onal use permlt is about.
Z;.n, bJil. soT,: Right and I understand what it is and I understand what happened. I
mcan ir, 1.985 I don't believe there was any of you folks that we dealt wlth here
~t the City of Chanhassen. It was kind of I think we felt kind of an open
situation. We dldn't think we uere dolng anything bad or wrong or anything and
~ did some grading that ue felt was rather minor and everything we've done,
11X~. ~ s~id, ue thought lmproved the property from a standpoint of not only how
~.~ could use the property but from an aesthetic point of view. From how when
;sorle approached the property and I think that, I know there's letters on file
f:-om z].l the other surrounding neighbors that support us 100% in uhat we're
ds.:r:s there. We had a problem wlth one neighbor. Unfortunately there was
r,:';scomn, unication between him and us and it got to the City Council. I believe
t.X~t had the communication been addressed properly in the beginning, you folks,
~s wouldn't even be here for this I don't think to tell you the truth. I really
don't thir, k so.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah you would have.
Wi]son: We would have? Okay.
Councilman Workman: You moved stop work order signs out there. Right? I mean
thoss were our Clty stop work order slgns and those uere moved. This ls klnd of
the other side of the frustration because as a City Council member, you know we
hav~ people who come in and bulld structures too close to the road. They ask to
d~ that but we have to tell them no.
Wilson: You're absolutely right. That shouldn't have been done.
£ouncilman Workman: And there's people that do do it instead and then they kind
of Inugh at the Clty Council and then they get a 11ttle anxious. I mean staff.
3im Wilson: We're not laughing. Believe me, I'm on the Park Commission over in
the City of Shorewood. Okay? So I'm a little bit, I'm not as involved as you
folks are so I knou uhat you go through. Believe me, I hear it from those folks
over there. One of our employees moved it but okay. It sounds like a blg
crime. Okay, run us off to 3all or whatever. You knou how many loads of dirt
uers dumped there? Maybe i or 2 after that was moved and then it was halted so
it was halted.
£ourlcilman Workman: I understand you painted the picture of a delapitated old
f.~rm before ~nd I don't think that farm had tuo wells going full time and water
s:;.~,',i:'~g off ~nd sedimentation running off and moving...
15
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
Jim Wilson: We're going to get into sedimentation? I wish you could come over
I. here right now with me after this 3 .inch 'rain and I'm going [o show you some
sedimentation.
Councilman Workman; I'm just saying there's an impact there that you' re acting
a,,~ though we shouldn't be concerned with at all because the neighbors on the
other side of TH 101 did get the brunt of the sedimentation.
Jim Wilson: We didn't put the culvert there. We could argue about that all
night so.
Mayor Chmiel: I guess this is not a competition time. What we're here for is
specifically what your needs are.
Jim Wilson: Right. Okay. I apologize. I would just like to get into item 4.
Recommendation number 4. The applicant shall submit for approval a revised
gradi.g plan reflecting the recent site grading and proposed improvements. Now
I believe that yOt~ have plans that show our proposed improvements.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, do we have those on file?
3o Ann Olsen: I don't believe we've gotten the new plans. What this condition
actually was referring to was there was some different contours that were
actually out there along the ditch which were shown on the plan. I think the
engineering department was requesting finalized engineering plans that reflect
what's actual1? out there.
Jim Wilson: Oh, what's actually there now with the ditch installed?
Jo A~rl O.l.sen: Right with the slope.
JJ.m Wilson: Oh it wasn't installed according to plan?
Jo Ann Olsen: The plan doesn't really show. The plan kind of gave a couple of
alternatives but dldn't really glve the detail on the alternatives.
Jim Wilson: My concern is, like I mentioned before, I don't know what you folks
think we are over there but we're not developers. We're nurserymen. We're tree
farmers okay? $10,000.00 we've spent. That's a lot of money on these plans.
Okay? And how I read this is we've got an improved proposed plan. Where we're
going to be down the road. We wore requested to show plans on what it looked
like before we started anything. Okay, we were there. Then we went ahead and
slatted construction of this ditch. Alternate $2 which was approved. We got
the required permits and okay from MnDot. We went ahead with that. In order to
grade out the ditch, it was full right to the road level. There was quite a bit
of soil that had to be put somewhere. I belleve with the verbal approval, I
didn't get it but I was told from Mark VanHoef my partner that the contractor
got verbal approval to push the dlrt around the corner and gradually slope off
that bank where the illegal filling had taken place. Because of the stop work
order we couldn't continue. We wanted to put in that smooth grade in there. We
couldn't do arlynlo~'e filling. We were at a stop. No more so we've got a cliff
so lr, o)'der to get that to a 3:1 slope, some grading. So here we've got the
dirt coming out of ~he ditch so we pushed it around the corner so I read this as
16
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
now hire a planner to come out there and draw plans to show where it is today
~Jhich doesn't make sense to me because you've got where we were back in October.
You've got where we want to go after you folks hopefully approve our expansion
which will also allow us some more filling and grading down there I believe.
It's on the plan. What we want to do in the future, which is to grade that down
and smooth it out. Why do I have to hire a planner to come out and show where
it is today? If tonight you approve it and say Jim you can go out there and
start doing those things you want to do and bring it up to snuff. What do I
need to go and pay a planner $2,000.00 to come out there and draw and survey it
and do that? I want to know.
Mayor Chmiel: I think some of the reasonings behind that is to know exactly
uhat the topography is within that specific location and in order to understand
what you have done to what you couid have proposed is two different things. So
consequently I think that's what 30 Ann has just said.
Jim Wilson: You had what it was. You've got what it was. You got what we're
going to do.
Mayor Chmiel: But it's not on the plans.
Jim Wilson: Yeah, it's there.
Mayor Chmlel: But Jo Ann is saying no.
3im Wilson: Here's the plan. Here's $10,000.00 worth of plans right here and
we hired an engineer that ! think, I'm not an engineer myself.
Jo Ann Olsen: He hired a planner and that's the problem.
Jim Wilson: I believe you folks have copies of these plans and unless I'm
reading this wrong, it tells me here's the plans. You've got them and you're
asking me to do them again or I don't understand.
Mayor Chmiel: Jo Ann, would you like to try to explain that one more time.
Jo Ann Olsen: When Dave Hempel and myself visited the site, the gradlng that
was occurring out there wasn't exactly what was being shown on the plan. I
think he just wants some verification. You can add to this if you want but I'm
sure it's something we could just work out.
Jim Wilson: Oh I'd be glad to work it out but I don't want to pay some guy.
You know they're like $85.00 a hour to come out there and stand around with
instruments and look through them you know and I thought we had it right here.
Our budget...
Mayor Chmlel: Let me ask our City Engineer.
Gary Warren: Mr. Mayor, it's my understanding as Jo Ann stated that there are
some areas that apparently have been disturbed that aren't totally reflected on
the plan. I don't think it's a big issue that has to require a professional
engineering stamp on the plan here but Z think that staff can get together wlth
the applicant.
17
City Coul~c$1 iteeting ,-.June 4, 1990
llayor Chmiel.' Staff oan get together with Jim and work that out?
Gary W,s'r~en: We can work out some of the details.
Mayor Chmie].: Fine, Okay.
Jim Wilson: That's fine, I'd be willing to work with anybody as long as it
doesn't co:sl me another $10,000.00. I mean I'ln not building apartments out
there you know. I understand how these guys can come in here and do that.
They've got the money &n the budget to do that. We're just growing trees.
Mayor Chmiel: It's green but lt's not money.
.Jim Wilson' If tl~e droughl's over with it might turn into a few. Number 8 I
think has heel/ addressed in a letter that we received May 28rd. 8, catch basins
~h~].l b~ inBtalied on ~ driveway to convey runoff into the ditch. WhiIe we're
talking, I guess we'll take it one at a time. Catch basins. That has been I
think through your letter M~y 23rd where you inet with Bob Peterson. Going to
forego ti'me catch baslns.
Councilman Johnson: You're not going to put the catch basins in?
Jo A;,n Ol:sen: I believe he's got a ditch, but what they're going to do is have
J~ slope so there's like ~ swale to a holding pond now. I don't belleve that
the're's a catch basln is there or was there one?
Jim W£1son: First of all, can I just butt ill here?
Jo Ann Olsen: Butt away.
Jim WJ. lson: Tile plans where drawn and they're dated here and you've seen them,
September 25th. Alternate 1. Alternate 2. Use either or. We love you guys.
Put it in. On it. If you read that plan, and I've got it rlght here and I'd be
glad to go through it with you, there's nothLng in Alternate 2 about catch
basin:s. There's nothlrlg in Alternate 2 about sedlment ponds. We're ready,
listerl to th~s. I don't know if you're business people. I'm trylng to be a
buslness persol~. I'm a tree farmer. I'm not well to do here. Drought 2 years.
We'~-e just hariging on and if you don't believe me you can go down and see my
banker. Okay. We draw these flne plans, $10,000.00. Okay. It's sitting here
before you guys. We've got all winter. Whatever goes on. We go out there. We
dig out the ditch. We grade lt. That was done in the Fall. Widmer comes out
and he redoes his work and he's all set. We get the ~ater flowing. The
culvert'm installed. All that 3azz ls done. We pay somebody, Wldmer again.
Comes in. Grades the driveway. We haul in 5-6 loads of rock. We are ready to
pave. We're golng to pave thls thing. We've got that baby sloped so it goes
off to the north side of the driveway. We wait. It ralns. All the water goes
off that side. We're trying to direct it away from Mr. Finger's property. We
dorl't want an ounce of water, of our water on his property. We want to keep it
all on our property. We like the water. Okay. Staff comes out. I don't know
wllal day it was but the letter's May 23rd that we receive. We're supposed to
have this work done June 1st. On my manager's butt to get it done. We've got a
contract to pave this driveway. We spent the money on the grading. We spent
the money on the rock and then all of a sudden the engineer and the planner come
18
City Council Heeting - June 4, i990
out. They talk to the guy that's out there doing the work and they decide at
that point in time that we shouId have a sediment pond. We shouid crown the
driveway and we shouId put in an asphait lip and direct the water into that
sediment pond. Now I ask you as business people, as citizens that own property,
do you think that that's right? Do you think that I should have to spend all
that money to grade. To haul in rock and now I'm on hold. The driveway's not
paved. We dldn't get it done June 1st but what would have happened had we done
it a week before. Would we have to rip the driveway up and crown it and put in
the sediment pond? There's nothing in these plans that say that. Alternate
number 2. And getting lnto this sediment. I'd love you to come over there
right now. I know you can't and I wish I could have taken pictures. A video or
anything. We can go down there and start talking sediment. We've got farm
flelds that surround Finger's property. Surround the wetlands. Surround our
property. There's 20 tons of sediment sitting in that Class B wetland that come
from next door to Finger's. Rlght next door it washed down and thls 3 lnches of
raln went under the culvert and is sitting in the Class 8 wetland. You go over
to my dltch that we just did all the work, sodded. Put all the nice eroslon
control matting. Seed. Trees. Everything on there. You look around there.
You look in my dltch. You know what's in the bottom of the ditch by that
culvert, the damn stone that I put on the driveway that would have been covered
by asphalt had we been allowed to go ahead with the plans. Now you wonder why
I'm frustrated. We're trying to do this. There's sediment'from all over the
place. You take a look at the Flnger's property right now. Due south. Due
south. Right next door to Finger's there's a swate right down through that
fleld and there is a 5 yard load of sedlment sitting right next to his drlveway
from that farm. There's 20 tons of sediment sitting on my side of TH lOI in my
wetland from the farm fleld dlrectly to the east. 50 acres tllled. He's got
corn in there or something but wlth this rain it deposited 20 tons of silt
there. Okay, my ditch is clean. Why do I have to put a sedlment pond in?
Why? If you could come up there and say 3im this is why, here's all your
sediment, I'd be glad to do it but the only sedlment sltting in there rlght now
is the gravel that I put on the driveway that I would have had covered up had I
been allowed to pave it. I dldn't want to pave it when we recelved thls letter
dated May 23rd. I was not privy to the discussion between the contractor and
the City staff. It says applicant not here. No applicant. I don't thlnk
Wldmer's the applicant. I'm the applicant or my partner is the applicant or
somebody's the applicant. We just said hey, we'll put it on hold and wait untll
the Council meeting. I'll tell you, you're talking about couple thousand
dollars worth of work to do. I've got to tear up my grading. I've got to trash
my gravel. I've got to dig up. I've got to destroy. I've got to run a plpe
through a berm. I've got to open up some more ground. There's golng to be some
more sediment. If I saw that that catch basin or that sediment pond would do
any good there. If you folks come out there right now after we have reported
some 3 inches of rain out there this weekend, if there was going to be sediment
there from us, lt'd be there and it's not. I would be willlng to say hey. I'd
even be glad to put silt battlers down that ditch and with that, we can look at
it August 1st and if there's silt in that dltch, I'll put in the sediment pond
but I don't want to do it now. I don't think it's necessary. I think there's a
lot of areas around there that need those types of things worse than we do.
Mayor Chmiel: Gary, can you address that?
19
City CouncJ. 1 ~eet.[ng - June 4, L990
Gary Warren: Mr. Mayo;-, Dave ltempel couldn't be here tonight. Dave has been
dealing with the details of th£,.3 and I guess I'd suggest that I'd like to have
Dave get together here and review this more specifically because he's got all
th.'-.; background and details on it.
3im Wilson; I kind of think it was an after thought where staff said hey,
they've got AiLs'mate 2. They're going to do that. Let's pull some stuff out
of Alternate 1 and add i.t in there. That sounds good. We'll throw that in
there. You know, granted there's nothing wrong with it but it's going to cost
I;~ e.,.
Mayor Chmi~.,l: We].] we'll look at that Jim. Maybe we can move on to whatever
item you have there next.
Jim Wilson: I think really that's about it. As far as I know a lot of the
other J.~e,r,s have been already done. Completed. The applicant shall redirect
runoff fron, the nurse'ry, this is number 1, using Alternate $2. I believe we've
do~e tha~. The non-conforming shade and planting structure, we've got the bulk
of that dour, and you've given me until 3uly 1st to complete that.
Co~.tnc~lman Johnston: Can I ask yo~z a question on that?
5J.~,~ Wllson: Yes.
Councilman Johnson: When wll]. you have your other shade structure completed?
..~im WLlsorl: Depending on approval, I think the plans show the larger one in the
upper area. ~ would jusL as soon, here's another one that really throws me. Z'11
try to be as brief as possible. Here's my thing. Screen. You guys require
100~..' opaque screerling of storage areas. Just about 99.9~ of the types of things
that we store if you uill or grow in containers or what not, are plants. What's
inside the shade structure are plants. Living, growlng plants. Now to me
people., and I see it all the tlme...they put up fences to screen junkyards.
J. O0~. opaque fences. Screen junkyards. Screen unsightly whatevers. Then you
know what they put in front of those fences to kind of break up and soften the
fence:s. What do you think they put
Councilwoman Oimler: Trees.
Jim Wilson: Trees and plants. Now you guys want me to screen plants. Now that
real.l.y makes sense to me. That really makes sense. Here we've got an open air
structure if you will wlth a roof on lt. It's got posts and it's got green
p].a~;ts in there and now you want me to build a 12 foot high opaque solid fence
around thl~ thlng. Then you're probably golng to requlre me to put what?
Counc:iluoman ~in, ler: Trees in front of it.
Jim ~lilson: Now that really ,makes serlse. I just wish you could come out and
see this structure float we just destroyed.
Mayor Chnliel~ Can you address that Jo Ann?
2O
City Council Heeting - June 4, 1990
Jo Ann Olsen: We're not requiring him to screen the plantings. The only thing
that we were talking about screening was the storage of the woodchips and the
klnd of other material.
Jim Wilson: Then I wish it would have been said in there that that's all
because I mean we're talking about the maximum of woodchips that we have on site
for sale which is hardwood bark mulch. We have one plle there that can range
anywhere fronl maybe, I think it comes in 30 yard loads. We buy one truckload at
a tlme. Just dump it ina plle. Use it for mulchlng and the landscape jobs. A
lot of the uoodchips you folks are talklng about is woodchips that we get from
tree trlmmlng companies that we use to put in our areas to try to flght some of
the erosion...
Hayor Chmiel: I think what Jo Ann is saying, it says in item 3. That pretty
much covers the aspect of it.
Jim Wilson: Okay. You're talking about the woodchips that have been piled up
on that ridge line there and they're all gone except for residual and we'll get
that cleaned up. But I thlnk the shade structure you wanted.
Councilman Johnson: When's the new shade structure going to be built was the
original question? When wlll you have your new shade structure completed was my
original question?
Jim Wilson: Well we're going to try and get it completed July 1st I guess since
we have to have the rest of the other one down by then. I've got a couple other
ldeas to get lt. We have an area that we have plants growing in containers and
my idea was to put whatever shade structure down in that area behind the barn.
Do you know where I'm talking about Jo Ann that's got kind of a horseshoe kind
of berm and if anything down there you can't really see.
Councilman Johnson: What I'm trying to get at is July 1 an adequate amount of
time for you to plan to contract for somebody to come in? I don't know if you
need, you probably need a buildlng permit. To get your building permit and to
bulld thls structure.
Jim Wilson: I don't know. My idea of what I would like to do in a shade
structure is completely different from the plan. I don't know if he'll go for tt
or not. It'd be to put a tubular structure with shade cloth over it down below
where you can't see it from anywhere which is where I wanted to put tt in the
flrst place but my partner was adamant about putting it up on top and he's
kicking himself right now because he had to tear it down the structure.
Councilman Johnson: But see what I'm trying to get at here is if we can't do it
by July i and we say by July 1 you've got to take all those posts out of the
ground and then on July i you have no shade structure and the rains have stopped
and the sun's out. There's not a cloud in the sky.
Jim Wilson: I'll be a world of hurt.
Councilman Johnson: You'll be in a world of hurt and I don't want you in a
world of hurt okay?
21
CiLy Co~zr~ci]. I'leer. ing- June 4, 1990
Jim Wilson: So what are you proposing?
Coui'~¢ilman Johnson' Well that's what I'm trying to find ou~. How muah ~ima do
you, b~cause I don't think July l's reasonable.
Jim Wilson: No, I don't either. I would say more like September 1.
Cou;,cJ]man Johnson: Well September 1 doesn't do you a whole lot of good for
shade stf'tlo~t~r'e this Weal'.
.lJ.m Wilson: That's true. It at least gives me enough time to do...
Mczyof Chmicl' ~ think ~t July i date ~s probably there.
3~.m ~ilson: I'll live with it. I myself in my own mind, the shade structure's
been dFaun in there. Z have what I think is a better idea. Zt moves it
comp].etely a~,~y from that particular site and I think that, and if that won't
go, ~f-,¢r, wn'~.[ put ~t where it's shown on the plan.
Ha>'o'r Chmiel: ~ell it should be located where it is on the plans at this
..3pec:J. fJ.c t
Cot, r, cilmar~ 3ohr, sof~: ~here is this new site you're talking about?
Jo P,i]r, Olser,: I think he's t,zlking about down here.
3ira ~ilson: Yeah, that low mi'em dou~ there uheFe ue have containers.
Cour, c.i. ln,a~ .7ohr, sof,: Wh~re it slays shrubs and proposed pFopogation?
.Jim Uilsor~: You caf~'t see it from anywhere. It has a big berm.
.~o ~nn O[sen: It says shrubs.
Counr:Jlmal~ 3ohnson: It says proposed propogation houses and shrubs?
.~im Wilson: ~hat plan are you looking at?
3o ~nn o].ser,: Number 3.
Cou~ci]aan 3ohnson: Sheet 3 of 4. The last sheet in [his group. If ua're
9of. ng to be approvir~g this tonight yot~ know and you change it...
3i~ ~i].son; That's correct.
CouncJ.]man 3ohnson: Okay, ~here are you going to move.
3im ~ilson: No, where it says...
Cottnc:ilman 3ohnson' Ther~'s like 5 wows of propogatio~l house and that area.
.~.[,~ Wilson' No I guess the area that has the existing shrubs in it right now.
Thr~t.'s ~.ll one ar'em actually. Proposed propogation house and shrubs. That area
22
.City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
is the area that I'm talking about and that is completely surrounded on at least
2 sides by a big berm.
Councilman Johnson: Okay, what would you do with the proposed propogation
houses? Are they going to have to go someplace else now?
Jim Wilson: Not on the site, no.
Councilman Johnson: So they could be within the shade structure?
Jim Wilson: You can use the shade structure as a propogation house. The
propogation houses have to be shaded. So it can be a 2 fold purpose.
Councilman Johnson: Has staff looked at this site and thinks this would be a
good site for the shade structure?
Jo Ann Olsen: Yeah, it would be better screened than where it's proposed.
Councilman Johnson: So we could put a condition in here that allows the shade
structure to go at thls slte versus the above site to where you don't have to
come back in here and change the plan agaln.
Jo Ann Olsen: So you're going to be, that shade structure you're proposing is
big and that would take up that whole place.
Jim Wilson: I couldn't even begin to build that shade structure. I just tore
down a $5,000.00 some odd dollar just the cost of material shade structure.
What we were told was to come in here with that ultimate, you know the pond, the
shade structure. I don't even thlnk we need that big of a shade structure but
we flgure what the hell. We're comlng in here for a shade structure, let's go
for it. The biggest one we could possibly ever need. Ultimate. That's it.
That's what we were advlsed to do. That's why we were here wlth the wetland
alteration permit.
Mayor Chmiel: You're in agreement with what Jay is saying basically?
Jim Wilson: Yeah, I would like you know I guess at this time because my
partner's not here and he can't say yeah, okay because he kind of wanted it up
there on the top of the hill. If you're willing to put it up on the top, why
wouldn't you be w1111ng to put it on the bottom? I mean the bottom 15 really
better than I think anyplace.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, would you like to increase that?
Councilman Johnson: So 14, when we get to the final motion, item 14 would be
proposed shade structure to be located as shown on the plans or within the
bermed area due west of the barn. Something of that nature. I think that
describes it.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay.
Jim Wilson: Where are we at on the sediment pond?
23
Cit? Colln¢i. 1 Meatil~9-- Jun~ 4, ~990
Nayor Chmiel: That's somethif~g that you're going to discuss with staff and
reach a c.:onc].tt..,~.ion on that,
Jim Wilson: Other than that I think, oh the one other item on here. Number 10.
The ,-,pplic:ant ..~ha]l provide a letter of credit as determined by the City
Eng.inee'r and the Planning Director' to insure that the drainage improvements,
propo..;eJ ~andscapif,g and erosion control measures are completed. We have a
.letter of credlt that I think was good.
Hayer chm~e].; For what p~:riod of time?
Jim Hilso~: It ran out. Was retired or whatever Hay 1st. It. was retired.
-$tO,O00.O0 o'r $7,000.00 or whatever but z think that we have met the conditions
and done the proposed work. The only thing that we're lacking according to
Alter'nat:-: ~t2 £?. we have,'t paved the driveway. ~nd Z've got a contractor to
pave the driveway and I think our track record shows that when requested, we've
pre-.try much done the things that we've been asked to do. ~ letter of credit for
me to go out and get another letter of credit at the bank to cover what has
u. nclone the. paving. ~e'tl continue with the paving as soon as T meet with the
City .F.r, gineef'. Get this sediment pond thing resolved. We'll pave the driveway.
I want the d'riveuay paved.
Mayor Chmiel: ~ letter of credit is normally, that's required. That's
mandatory.
Jim Wilson: It's going to cost me some money to go to the bank to get a letter
of credit.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I realize that.
Jim ~i].son: ~t would I,ave been done prior to tonight had this deal here on the
sediment pond been addressed earller in the season. I mean 2 days before we
were going to pave the drlveway I don't think is enough time. It would have
been paved tonlght. Would have been done.
Mayor Chmiel' Right. I see this where this still has to be in.
Councilman Johnson: The erosion control measures include the new silt fence.
You're moving [he silt fence that's out there right now.
Jim Wilson: The silt fence is out. Oh, you mean where I'm saying I would be
glad to p~t some silt fence down in the ditch?
Council. man Johnson: No, I'm talking on the north side. It looks like you're
propelling to do a lot more filling of the area.
Ji,;, Wi].son: The slit fence is in.
C¢,uno~lmarl Johnsor,: Yeah, that silt fer, ce is not very far from the edge of the
cur'rent fi].l and it's looking like you may be putting a lot more fill in to
where you're going to fill over the top.
Jim Wilson: I don't think we're going to do any fill.
24
City Council Heeting - June 4, 1990
Councilman Johnson: Okay. ~ee that's one of the reasons I was having a little
problem and one of the conditions was what's there now is to see how much more
filling was planned for this area but you're saying the fill on this.
Jim Wilson: To be honest with you, we're done.
Councilman Johnson: Well it;s not quite a 3:1 slope yet. You've got to do some
sloping right?
Jim Wilson: Yeah. We'll have to do that. Dressing up the one area. You've
been out there Jo Ann and seen what we've done? I mean the grass is coming up
nice. It looks pretty good. I'm going to put a few more trees up there.
There's a 11ttle area further to the west that is still pretty steep. I guess
we'd 11ke to, where it joins in to what was existing. All we're trying to do is
just clean up...
Mayor Chmiel: I'd like to keep us rolling here Jim. Not to take it up anymore
but I'd 11ke to get a motion on the floor for the proposal. Jay, I think you
have a pretty good handle on what's there. Do you want to make a motion?
Councilman Workman: I think we'd better go down the recommendations one by one.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, number i is fine. Number 2 has been changed to rather than
June 1 to July 1st.
Councilman Workman: Does July 1st stay the same in number 17
Councilman Johnson: It's already done.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I think that's all done. It's finished. That was
completed.
Councilman Johnson: Moot point.
Mayo1- Chmiel: Okay item 3, there's no changes there. Item 4 is one that's
discussion yet wlth staff. That you'll contlnue with that.
Councilman Johnson: Supposedly these plans should be pretty close to what was
done then so 4 might be this set of plans. Pretty darn close.
Jo Ann Olsen: Well, it's pretty close to what's there. It's just there was
some discrepancy that we wanted to.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, and that you're going to find out so you can have
discussions with Jlm on that and come up with a conclusion. Okay. 5 ls fine.
6 is alrlght. ?.
Councilman Johnson: Well 5 he's got a bone of contention.
Jo Ann Olsen: Discuss.
Councilwoman Dimler: Discuss with staff.
25
CiLy Council Heeti[~g ~-Juno 4, 1990
Counc.L].n, ar, Johnsor,; The sediment pond.
?la>,o,- Cl-~tl~ie.l_: Yeah, that's to be discussed with staff as well.
Councilman Workma,: So what does that mean when ue approve all this?
i';ayo," (::hrr, iel: Il. wi. Il be cor, ditioned on decision,s by staff.
CottncJ. lri, ar, t~orkr, ar,: T thi.k ~e're going to have a few of those J.n here aren't
Co~ilnmam'~ Johnson= Z think 5'~ the main one.
Nc~yo'r Chmiet: Y~et'~, 5 i~ Fe~lly probably the m~in item. ~ don't ~ee the need
'fo::- u~: to basic:ally table this.
COLtI'IC~]~OBSfl B~III.~r.t'K: ~[ JS not necesssf'y. Re,~o~e 8.
Oo[tnc:~J~,an 3ohnso~: ~8'r¢ go&rig to remoue 8.
.]~:~ ~J. tson; There's ~ ].e(tef- dated ~une 23rd that foregoes 8.
6ounc~r~n 3ohnson: ~e}~ see this was written H~y 2nd.
.~(m ~J]sor~: Yes, Z t.~nder:;t~nd
6ou~c:i[uoma, Dimmer: 9's good.
l'l~yor ChmLe~: Yesh. 20, Z ar~suered your questLon on that one. Zt
Fe~i~Jn. ii. J.:; ~.!.rJght. 12. That's fine. $3.
.]o ~r~t~ Olson: Change thQ or to
Hayof' ChmJo~: '¢esh, that's f&ne. ~nd actua}~y ~&th reaoua~ of nLtaber 8, there
:-::t'[1~ ~]I be ~3 co,dJtLons correct? ~ust move tl~e conditions down ~ccordLngty.
6ounc[}~an Jolly,son: t~hat's happened J~-~ Lhe p~st when ue d$d that Ls there-9ot
to be: m.:3:¢ conr~z~J, on. Uo coutd under 8 say, ~tem deteted and then cont2nue on
~,d have ~ item J4 because uhe~ Lt comes Ln }ater, [hen we're acgu2ng over
wh.:~.t'~: ~n 8 and ~¢hat's a 6.
Hayor Chmie].: Okay. ~.d ite~ 14 ~ proposed shade str~cture as sho~n on
in adjac:er~t Lo the bermed are~?
Councilman ~ohnson: Yeah. Could be located a~ sho~n on the piar~s or located in
tl,e ber~ed ~rea ~est of [he barn. ['11 a~oue ~].l those change~.
CounciI~or~a. Dimlor: Second.
Co~mcilman 5ohnson mo~ed, Councilwoman ~imler ~econded to approve Conditional
Vse Per~it ~SS-1 for expansion of the ~ortb~est ~holesaIe ~rsery ~bject to the
following ~onditions:
26
City Council Heeting - June 4, 1990
1. The applicant shall redirect runoff from the nursery by using Alternative ~2
shown on the drainage plans as shown on Sheet 4 of the plans dated September
27, 1989 and approved by HnDot and the City Engineer by June 1, 1990.
2. The applicant shall remove the existing non-conforming shade and planting
structure by July 1, 1990.
The wood chips/mulch shall be removed from the area adjacent to the wetlands
to an area where runoff from the same shall not adversely affect the wetland
and shall be contained and properly screened as approved by staff. Removal
of the wood chips/mulch shall occur no later than August 1, 1990.
The applicant shall submit for approval a revised grading plan reflecting
the recent site grading and proposed improvements.
5. The applicant shall discuss with staff the construction of a sediment pond
Along the south side of the driveway per Alternative ~2 and modify the
outlet pipe to draln into the TH 101 dltch.
Side slopes adjacent to TH 101 shall not exceed 3:1.
7. Uood fiber blanket shall be used on slopes 3:1 or greater.
8. Item was deleted.
9. The applicant shall obtain and comply with all permits required from the
pertinent agencies, i.e. Watershed 0istricts, HnDot and Hinnesota
3.0. The applicant shall provide a letter of credit as determined by the City
Engineer and Planning Director to insure the drainage improvements, proposed
landscaping and eroslon control measures are completed.
ll. All erosion control shall be Type III, maintained and removed at the request
of the City Engineer.
12. The applicant shall receive the comply with all conditions of the Wetland
Alteration Permit prior to creation of the proposed pond site set forth on
the plans. Approval of the conditional use permlt is not an approval of the
proposed ponds.
13. No plantings, storage or other disturbance of the Class A or Class B wetland
shall be permitted without application and receipt of all proper wetland
permits.
14. The shade structure may be placed as shown on the plans or in the bermed
area west of the barn.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
27
City Council Hecting -. Jun~.' 4, 1990
SITE PLAN AMENDMENT AND SIGNAGE REVIEW, CHANHASSEN PROFESSIONAL BUILDING, WEST
78TH STREET, BOB COPELAND AND BRAD JOHNSON.
Jo Ann Olsen: The whole reason we're bringing this back in front of you is that
tl,e al-.p!.icant fics~ WaS coming through with a sign variance to allow one of the
tp. naFitS to have more than one wall sign. When we looked over through the files
~Jl',at the sign plan that was approve(I, we found that there were t~o different
plans. One had 3 signs on the south side and 2 on the north and ther, there ~as
a[~so a plan tha~. showed 5 signs on both sides. This is right in the middle of
who~-~-~...planneFs char, ged again and it's not real clear in the report or t~me
HiT,utes that ti';.[s Js actually the sign proposal that was approved by the City
Council and PI. arming Commission. We dld get a letter from the applicant showlng
eoF~'-aspormdence sending the plan with the 5 signs on both sides and the Planning
Commission chairman Ladd Conrad remembered approving 5 on both sides. So we're
just kind of bringing it back in front of you to verlfy that this is what was
approved. No[ to have him prove what we feel that we want. The Plannlng
Con, nmJsslorm f-eoom~mmf, er, dect the 5 on both sides.
Couricilwoman Dimler: Where did the confusion come in?
Hayer Chmiel: Nas this a draft plan oF a finalized plan?
Jo .Ann Olser,: No, they had to go through an official sign/facia plan. The
confusio), was that there we're plans submitted and the week before the Planning
c(J~,,m.[ss~J.o,i packet arid then there were plans submitted the week of the Planning
Commission packet and I believe what happened was the plans that were brought by
the developer shown during the discussion had the 5 slgns on both sldes. I just
dorl'~, k~o~ if i[ was ever really clearly pointed out in the report that that was
what ua...~ beJ. ng approved. I'nm not doubting that it wasn't shown. It's just one
of those thlngs that might have been missed along the way so we just want to get
verification.
CouncillT~an Johnson: A typlcal 13th hour submission. When after the packets
have germ to Planning Commission, then a new set of plans come in. That new set
of plans. Personally I don't remember the 5. I remember the 3. 3 on one slde
an-:! 2 on ,~he other side. I ~hought it was kind of unusual they didn't put 3 on
both Slides. Z don't remenlber the 5 ~nd 5 but Z don't have a problem with 5 and
$ actua].ly. My memory remembers the 3 and 2 but that was a long time ago to try
t.O r el;leF, Iber.
Hayo)' Chmiel: If J.t goes to that 5, make sure that there's no more than one
busines-~ name per sign on there as the Planning Commission recommended as well.
CoLtno.~lman Johnson: So that means he can only have 5 businesses in that
I.~ujldJ. ng whJ. ch is ~ pretty big building for only 5 businesses. As long as (he
:-'.;qua're footage is not over our, I don't have a problem wlth 2 names per slgn
persona ]. ly oithnr as long as we know exactly the size of those sigrls and all of
a suddefl we don't get some 14 foot tall by 20 foot wide slgn. What's shown
there ai"-c nice little sigi'mS.
Mayor Chr;lir?].: Does it spell out the exact size of those signs? I've read this.
COLkFiC~].m;LFI Boyt' 12 inch letters was in this.
28
City Council Heeting - June 4, 1990
Councilman Johnson: We have some prints now.
Councilwoman Oimler: This is the official?
Councilman Johnson: This is the 3 and the 2 version.
Councilman Boyt: Ha/be while you guys are looking at it I can state a few
concerns and then Brad or someone can respond to. Like many things downtown,
once you see them it always seems as though there's some sort of surprise about
how it looks. I remember talking about the need to put this so close to the
road when ue built it. When I see it there, one of m/ concerns is that when we
put signs on it, it's going to look even closer to the road so I'd like to have
you talk about that a minute when you get up to address issues. The other one
is, as a what I would think of as a professional building in town, in driving by
professional buildings normally what I see there is a name for the building and
I don't see each individual tenant listed. And I know you're not going to list
each one. You're anticipating 30 tenants in there and there's no way you're
going to get that many on there. So I see a concern and you've referred to it
of- somewhere staff did that this was a retail office center sort of thing as
versus a professional building. I'm not quite sure what the difference is in
that. I can tell you that my expectations are a little bit different than what
I'm seeing shape up in terms of the signs. I'm a little I guess the closeness
to the road gives that building a tremendous impact on the rest of downtown and
I'm wondering if signs don't make it a little more apparent yet than it already
is. I understand your tenant's desire to have their names out in front of
people. I'm just not real comfortable with it so I'd sure like to see if you've
got any artist renderings or anything that will make this a little more clear.
I'd sure like to see them.
Councilman Johnson: As far as the clearness of it, how you backlight these
signs too makes a lot of difference. I mean you can put in some quartz lights
back there you know and you can read 100 yards away. You can read at night
with. I'd want these signs for the night time side of it very minimally backlit
to where they are readable but not glaring. Somehow we've got to specify that
part of it because you can really throw a lot of wattage behind there and be
very excessive.
Mayor Chmiel: We have to be sensitive to the residential people.
Councilman Johnson: Especially on the north side. Yeah.
Councilman Bo/t: If we take the lights across here in the west shopping center,
or the signs, that signage makes sense. It's not over bearing but it is
informative. Yet it's set, gosh what is that, 100 feet off the street? 75 feet
off the street? Now we're talking 20 feet off the street or less so I'm
interested in how you're going to handle that.
Councilman Johnson: I'm very interested in your calling this a retail. I've
always thought of this as a professional building where you'll have engineers
and dentists and doctors and stuff like that. I totally agree.
Councilwoman Dimler: Professional building?
29
C.';ty Counc::l I'Jet~ting --.:une ~, .tggO
gouhcilman 3ohr, soT~: Yeah.
Coul~c:il~oman Dimler; That wa.s the name of the project.
Co:~:llmal', Johnson: This is the fJ. rst talk I've heard of retail. It'd be
i~eresting yoL~'r comment:s there.
,3'rad 3ohf~so~,' My i,ame is Brad Johnson and I live at 7425 Frontier Trail. I
think first of a.ll for the record I want to point out that it's our feeling that
tl,is~ ?ar'ticLt]ar program has been approved and we have a number of people that
have been through thls meeting and have verified the fact that these plans were
subm.-l.'~.ted both to the Planning Commission and to the Clty Counc11 and were
approved at that time. It's also out' feeling that this should stand on their
own hut ir, case we do have a problem here, then we'll probably have to appeal
because we feel that they were approved. Have gone ahead with our plans for the
bui].ding. We've gone ahead based upon that approval in attracting our tenants
and we've lncluded that in our leases for our tenants and that is sort of where
ue';-e at. I believe you have letters from the architect that these plans, you
rec. eived (he of iginal plans on Friday. On Honday we had additional set of
pi. ans. As the planr, er that wasn't here that handled those plans, he can't
answer that. We carrled those plans through. We did not know they were not in
your packet but we submitted them each time we presented them and they were not
ar~ ~SS.U.'.-: al. that time. That's kind of where we were very surprised but I could
understand how ~t could happen that for some reason they never got 1nfo the
packets hecausn ti'icy w(:re here from day one. On Friday the 14th. The next
Monday they were here. They were in Steve's hands. That week we submitted 10.
TI,m'e'.q a receipt saying that they were here pti. or to the Planning Commission
r~,e¢tir,~ whlch is easlly 30 days before the Councll meeting. Now why it dldn't
~nd ttp i~ you~' packet I don't kno~. You know we don't get that part of the
packet. All v~e do ls get the letter. So that's klnd of where we are. Relatlve
!.u t,.,f,ct I:he .signs w1].1 look like, I'd like to have Bob Copeland address that
3..:..:-~ue and then number 2, why is thls bulldlng or does any building today need
· ~Jgl',~.~ and ~,~:~'re acl. ually calling it a professional service center. I'd like to
have the folks that are the tenants of that buildlrlg explain that and we've got
~an Anderson and John Jacobsen here to explain the need iii today's marketing
world why th.is type of bulldlrlg needs thls type of slgns. I also want to polnt
out that any bu.i. lding in the downtown district has the right to have 15~ of it's
front of it's building in slgns. There is no restriction relatlve to being a
professional buildlng or whatever it is, you have a right to have a certain
amount of slgns and up to 15~ of the front of the bulldlng and that's in your
ordinance::~. Thi~ p.~rticular building is ?.5% of the front of the building in
signs. ~s to why the bulldlng ls close [o the road as it is, that was a
requJ, remer, t of the City during that time. If you look at any of our prevlous
submissior, s of the type of building we wanted to construct, we had it back away
from l. h6- [,treet and .it's just there and that was required by the City staff or
planners. At the tlme that we went. through thls process, they indicated that we
shot.~.l.d add color to the building and signs. Zt's not these 2 people here, that
slgr, s would be very advantageous to thls buildlng because it would add some
colo~'. The signs that we're thlnking about using are identical to what are in
To,..~, Square. They're not the big white light back lit ones. They're individual
!ette~s. Some wi].l be colored and if you look at it closely...to liven it up
:.~nd that's where we are. Bob, do you want to deal wlth the slgn issue itself?
3O
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
Bob Copeland: Let me just try to clarify what we're really talking about here
b~cause it doesn't sound like everybody understands ail the issues, at least the
u~¥ I do. We have two closely related issues that we're asking for. One ls the
number of signs. We want 5 on each side of the building. That would give us,
as Brad sald, 7.5. I guess we calculated it yesterday. It's just a little bit
under 6~ of tho face of the slde of the building so again we want 5~. We also
want the ability to allow a tenant and there are two tenants that want to have
one sign on the south slde and one on the north side. Now these signs, you
cannot physically see these slgns at the same time so they face opposite
directions. So those are the two issues. Now the Planning Commission said
okay. You can do that. They also added that they dldn't want to have more than
one tenant on a sign band and we go along with that. That's okay. So that's
basically the lssue. Now these sign panels are 2 feet high, 24 feet long and
the number of letters and the amount of the sign panel that i$ taken up depends
on the tenant. There might be a tenant with a four letter name or there mlght
be some that have many letters like Chanhassen Medical Center. The tenant will
declde whether lt's 11t or not lit but we understand that we have to have
individual letters which we're willing to...
Councilman Johnson: I'd think you'd want them all lit or none of them lit.
Councilwoman Oimler: Absolutely. It has to be uniform.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, I'd think you'd want it uniform.
Mayor Chmiel: I'd assume that they'd also go off at a specific time in the
evenlng.
Bob Copeland: We could arrange that.
Councilman Johnson: Is there going to be a late hours out patient with Chan
Medical eventually?
Bob Copeland: I think if you hold that question, their representative can give
you the answer.
Councilman Johnson: Because then turning it off may not you know.
Mayor Chmiel: I have a question. We have one of the members of the Planning
Commission here. Brian, do you remember discussion at that particular meetlng
and I'm reading something here from the Plannlng Commission meeting of May 2nd
and Emmlngs moved the Plannlng Commission recommend approval of the slgn
a11owlng 5 signs on the front and 5 signs on the back for a total of lO signs
and recommended approval of the $1te Plan Amendment wlth the condition that
there not be more than 1 business name per sign band. It says here you seconded
lt. Do you recall that discussion?
Brian Batzli: Yeah. The discussion was that they didn't crowd numerous names
lnto each individual sign was the lntent of that condition. At the time I don't
believe Brad or anyone else had a problem with that.
Mayor Chmiel: Is there any other discussion?
~..~l:y Cotir, c.[l I'leotin9 - June 4, 1990
Cot~T,C.i. lm,tn Boyt: Well yeah. I think 'the si. de of the building that faces the
,.~',.'-~:'tr~:_,nt b~t~!dLn,.g, when those businesses are closed, that light should be off.
C:o,.~nci.luoman Dimler: I agree.
Hayo'r' Chmiel: Yeah, thaL vas the point that I brought up.
Councilman Boyt: The ones facing main street, I guess I don't have much of a
:.:or, cern with that or as mu¢:h of a concern because the ones over here I believe
,:i;-e oil evef'y t. jme T. go by so that could be just part of main street.
Hayer Chmie]: They're all going to be the same 5 ten,nfs in thai particular
bui]ding. They would r,o'rmally have those syncronized onto a[imer and they
~.'ould .-sp11L it but ~t's probably better off if they had them both going off at a
s~)ec.i fic: time.
Bob Copeland: Cou].d ] make a point here? I don't think you quite understand
.~.',h,}( we'r:.~ talkir, g about. There are two tenants now that have said they ~ant to
have .-'.igns on both sides. Nov the remainder of the tenants uill probably only
h,~u;~ one :~[gll each. Either on the north side or the south side so we're golng
to have more than s tenants. ~tright so Dr. Hall is a dentist for example and
t~:.~ J'~{s s:J_gncd a lease ~i~d he's going to have one sign. Only one sign ell one
:?.~.de o~' the othe~'. ~nd he's probably going to waist it lit a~d he's probably
'0-:,;~9 Lo u~,~t ~t lit ii,to the evenings so people ~ilt drive by and see that's
wJl,3f-e his place of busilless is. I think if you take ~ close look at some of
these medical builclilmgs, tills Js not only a medical building buL if you look at
t~,e,~, you can see many signs identifying other businesses and thlngs that go on.
Cou~,c.,.'1~a~: .Tohnsor:' -So Lf I~e wants Jt lit he should be on the street side
;)cc:~u:se ,}t night there's not that many people running through the parking lot.
,~)u .... op~:l.'.Lrlcl' Correct. But we only h~ve five on the street side so not
~',..v,:'ryone's going to be able to be on the street slde.
c:::,Lt;:(:t]m.'..~ Boy1.: Well you've certainly seen more of these buildings than I
The ones Z've seen, the professional arts buildings have not had 11t
Lh~t are 2 fee~. high and 24 feet long on the front of them. Usually you
go through some sort of central entrance and in that entrance lsa
dli'ector'y ~nd it ~211 h~ve room 103 and whoever's name is there.
gob Cope].and: Are you familiar with Southdale Medical building?
,.OLtn¢....].ltl~ll Ooyt: Well I haven t been there in quite a long time.
Bob Cop,~tar~d' Thc, re::-, a fi.o's-al shop. Drug Store. All those buslness have
::~igns outside. Now also, our signs won't necessarily be 24 feet wide. That is
the uidtl, of the sign panel. The backing board that the letters will be mounted
6ounoiln~arl Boyt' Okay. Am I right in the understanding that the letters won't
~ ....... (t ~2 ~ncho:~ li[gh')
,, ,.. i,., ~. ,..... .l. ,
32
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
Bob Copeland: No. We don't know where that restriction came up. We're limited
by the height of the panel.
Council. man ¢oyt: Brad and I would disagree about the point of why the building
~s sitting so close to the road. We can say that's the Clty requirement and I
guess Z'11 accept that part of it. The part that I have some difficulty wlth is
why did the City require this. It's because it's your apartment building
si[ting back behind it and between thls building's parking needs and the
apartment building's parking needs, you couldn't put it anywhere else.
Bob Copeland: That's not correct.
Councilman 8oyt: Okay, tell me why that building's out close to the front?
Bob Copeland: I'll tell you. The reason it's out close to the front is because
the City staff and the City consultant planning requested that it be out next to
the road and the reason dldn't have anything to do with parking other than they
did not want to see cars parked in front of this building as you drive by on
78th. They did not want to have a streetscape that was cars in view all the
time and then the buildings back away from the street. They wanted to have a
streetscape that is similar to many downtowns where the buildings are right up
next to the road. In this case it's about 30 feet away. It's not right up next
to the road but they wanted it right up so the parking is on the north side
screened from 78th. That's the reason. We had plans with the opposite...
Councilnlan Bo/t: Well I want to follow up on that in a minute but who's John
3acobson?
John Jacobson: Right here.
Councilman Boyt: Okay, Mr. Jacobson. The letters will be approximately 10
inches in height and we anticipate the signage to be very professional looking.
John Jacobson: ...would have 10 inch letters.
Councilman Boyt: And so as Ursula mentioned, you're then implying that we may
have some 10 lnch letters and some 24 inch letters.
John Jacobson: Well you won't be able to get a 24 inch letter.
Councilman Boyt: 18 inch letter, whatever. This is really what you want to do?
You want to have that kind of variance in the letter height?
Brad Johnson: That's exactly what ue have on Town Square and it's exactly
uhat...on many of the presentations that BRW and the previous planners did on
signage for the downtown community.
Council. man 8oyt: Right, I remember those.
Brad Johnson: They uanted...and then some variance in the letters and that's
become a standard. If you drive by Miracle Hile...have all those signs and
they're in the process of changlng that to give the building a little bit more
life. That's the trend in signage. It's exactly the presentation that Barb
33
City C, ouncj. 1 I'leet~ng .- 3urge 4, 1990
O~cy and the ~,a~t planners did a;,d we've tried to stay with consistent sign
b~l:ds. We don't have signs going all. eve'," .~nd then the ability to have color
and logo~: w~tf, in that stnndard.
C,.~ui,ci. lmar, Boy[: Wel]. Jf you're [elling me it's going to be like what we see
o'..~e r' he're.
D'rad Jol~nson: We hope it is. That's exactly our goal. Those letters vary from
feet. down to ~ inches.
Coun~':il~,~ar, Ooyt: Tell me about the position of the building. If we've got just
,.:. n; ,'_ r,~ ~ ,:: b:~c,.~u~.:o I"vo just had nly concept blown out of the water so how did this
bu[]dir, g e. nd up ]n front of the street. Because I remember, see Todd what
~ r¢,~,ei~d~c..r, /.'v~ heard that I'm wrong but I'll tell you what ~ remember.
re,.~c:mher the consultant coming in here and saylng we need thls many parking
~,~ots an,:] .+l~i~ is what I heard so it must have been wrong. The only way we can
,~el. them .i.s by creatlne o~,e large parking lot between these two buildings ahd
~lOW ti~i:~ ge~,t.l, emarl is coming back and saying that's not true so what do you
renlenlber?
Todd Gerhardt: There was a variety of things. I mean the apartment building
wont £]'1 firs~t and then the Medical Arts bu£1ding and with the apartment building
already set in place, you have to work off of that. There was talk of putting
Lh~.: Medic:,.~l Arts building back and the parking lot in the front but that would
i,ot ~c,~rk wlth thc people in the apartment bullding looking out their wlndow to a
b~i].cl~rlg in their front yard per se of the apartment building. It lust didn't
~,',,~ke ~'ny sense so it fllp flopped back the other way and you have the parklng
].c.t ~.~'ll.~e~ween the two .structure~. And it got pushed an additional 15 feet
tou~;~,'ds the roadway ~o allow for another drive lane back there and reduce the
;'~;~rk.':.~g for that acces~. You have 2 drive lane~ around the parklng lot. At one
F, oJnt you only had one.
Co.'.t!':c'-[lr, an Bo/t: Uhat I don't remember coming out of it was the city staff
say~n.-.] that wa ~ant Ibis to sit up next to the road so it will change the way
West 78th Street looks.
Councilman Johnson: Actually I do remember that but I think that was
jl_,~tific~ion after the fact. Such as tho crooked old city hall. I think they
came back a;~d said yeah, we've done what we can. Now let's thlnk of reasons
~hat it looks good. ~ think th~t'~ what the consultant did in that came when he
cam~ out saying this. I was klnd of going ah huh anyway at that polnt.
P.,r,~d .lohnsorl' Jay, the original downtown plan drafted in 1985, or 1984, prior
to us doing thj.~ model had that whole side of the street with the buildings
?1.,.].1¢=~I to the street. And that wa~ the plan at that tlme and the planners that
were lnvolved in that always wanted iL to be that way. Then we came back and
..l<,,~id~:d that we had a tenant for that area, mainly Mr. Jacobsen and the clinic
~nd the hospital and our orlglnal proposal was to deslgn a bulldlng that say
mcr.~- ~n ,~.he middle and ;-~n north/south. Because of the inability after a year
c,F L~ to build on that slte because r~e could not relocate Mr. Hanson and because
~:~ could ;',o~ fei. Beats Nr. Loren Anderson and a whole bunch of other reasons that
had nothing [o do really wlth the staff, we flnally threw our hands up and sald
uh? don't you guys t~11 u~ how we can do it and if you look at the design of
34
City Council Heeting - June 4, 1990
this particular building, it was designed around Mr. Hanson so we could build
r~lght over him because we anticipated that, and he's still there. This is how
~ny years ago did we sign the lease? 2 years? 2 1/2 years ago. They're just
moving in. We're about to lose the presence of our main tenants and they were
just golng to go elsewhere and we would not then be able to complete the
downtown and so finally, I think correctly so, the staff came back with this
plan because we were unable to bulld the planned bulldlng that we had
recon, m~nded originally and that's really why it happened. It's nobody's fault
except that land acquisition in downtown areas sometimes go slow as you guys are
aware of.
Councilman Johnson: So there's a lot of various reasons that this has occurred
and it has nothing to do with the signs. We're here to talk about the signs.
Brad Johnson: We're happy wlth the way it looks.
Councilman Boyt: It has lots to do with the signs because the building's
slttlng there now and somehow we've come up with the opportunity, although
debated by Brad to change these signs and my point would be, I want these signs
to b~ very conservative because the bullding ls already obtrusive and when we
put lit signs on there, it's going to be even more so. And so I don't know what
the right answer is but I know part of that answer has got to be that these
signs are not glaring attractions to that building.
Mayor Chmiel: What you're saying is you want consistency within those signs
Bill whether 12 inch or 167
Councilman Boyt: I think I want that.
Brad Johnson: Defining that, we have a sign band of 20 inches. I think our
slgn band on the balance of the buildings downtown ls more 11ke 2 to 3 feet and
sometimes it runs as high as 5 feet. We've cut this back and scaled it back.
The reason that the hospltal has 10 lnches slgns ls because they have a lot of
letters. Rlght? So you just can't be high and long at the same time. There
may be somebody who just wants to be DD$ you know and we're only talking about
Five p~rticular tenants but those tenants wlll not stgn leases with us. Will
not move in there unless they have identification because that has become the
key to marketing. I think Mr. Jacobson wants to speak to that about how
~mportant it ls to the medlcal profession today that they have signage because
that's the name of the game. It's competitive. We are trying to stay within,
we've scaled down from 15~ down to ~ 1/2 and we really don't have a lot of
signs.
Councilman Johnson: For one other purpose I want to just say one thing. For
public safety purposes and people driving along the road, I'd hate to have the
signs where you have to look for them too hard. The slgns have to be obtrusive
enough to where they can be qulckly seen because otherwise you're driving like
this uhlch some people do anyway but no use giving them much more reason. They
should be able to catch it quickly.
3ohn Jacobson: My name is John Jacobson. I've Vice President of Ridgevleu
.,,.-.u_c~ Center and as Brad has eluded, we are the major tenant on the first
floor which conslsts of the Chanhassen Medical Center which ls of course Dr.
35
Council Neet i~,g -- June 4, 1990
D,~vj.d HcCollum and the associates that we're bric,gin9 on with Dr. ZcCollum and
~,~.:~',ii'.e:~; H.'.:alth Serv[¢:es. I tllink tho issues have been well discussed this
eve'r, il]g. I 'find Ihs definition between retail and profession intrigin9 in the
cerise th,~,t T'l;, rmt sure that there's such separatenes~ ar, ymore between retail
and Frof~s~;ional. Ir, health care, at least in the last 10 years in health care,
ma;--keti~,9 h,:,s become, whether that's good or bad, it's become the reality of the
field. ~t's ce~'tainly something that we're sensitive to. ~s a matter of fact
that's th~; r~a~,on t,~o're in Chanhassen is because we're very aware of our service
a're.~ ~,nd the opport~nities that th¢.s particular community presents to us. In
i:;:~'~r,..; of ~l,:'~ ::...~,a~e itse].f, ue feel very strongly that ue need to have signage
o~, both sides of the building. Really on the south side or on the street side
· f:::' :~.:~ntJfJ~.atJor, o~ tho busine~:s and on the north side for where those
?articular businesses ars located. Dan Anderson who's the clinic manager just
..j . . ..~ ~ I .
'..-,.,.~.; ['e,: ,~ COL[plomor,,.n~ back just described to me, yesterday there was an
elderly woman, that inadvertently ua].ked ir, the wrong door because ue don't have
~.~,~.: cJ. gn,~gc, tl,~ ~pp~'op'r'ia~e :signage up yet. I think for compet.ttive purposes,
for marketing purposes, for visibJ, lity purposes, for educational purposes, ue
f~{~! rs;";- s~rong.]y that ue want to have signage on both sides of the building.
Us ;.~l~o are plannir, 9 on evening hours. ~e would certainly, our preference would
be thaf th:.~ sJ. gnage, particularly on the street side, go into the evening. ~e
think it':; important that as people come to the Chanhassen Dinner Theater that
they become aware that ue have the Chanhasscn Hedical Center there and Business
Heal ti, Services the~-e. ~ lot of our clients come from outside of the community
of El~anha:;cer, ,znd a~ all of us are aware J.n marketing today, you need to create
,}n ~t~,zr~nasc ~',d ue need to have visibility and people need to be aware that
we'~-e here.
Cour, cJ. lr;~ar, ~,Jorkman: Mr. Hayor? My mailbox weekly I think has mail from
.:,outhdaJ:'::, S" Franc;'.s and Yaconia and Nethodist and so they're all marketing
for ~y sickliness irm my house anti we are denying them very well. 8ut I
understand [he ide,~ of marks[ir, 9 and trying to market. I think ~e're almost
quJ. bb]in9 a little bit versus 3 oh the front versus 5 on the front and 2 on the
back. I a;u concerned about the l~eighbors that are going to come in from that
apartment c:omplex. They're going to have some glowing signs in there. We just
ha~l soma r,e[ghbo~:~ complaining about pizzas down at TH 7 and TH 41 cookin~
potent~,~!ly and so people get excited about something that maybe changes.
,:l.:~'~'t k~,o~.; Zf the ti~:lrd floor of that thing's full yet or not.
8',--~,.'J Johns.:on: It'.-.'. full.
,~.o,tr, cilmar, Workman: Is it? The signs as I imagined them, I'm on public: record
f..' ~.,;y'.;.],.~ T tl~ir, k th!s bL~ldir, g looks better thai] I thought where it is and lit
L;F' ~t ni~jl'lt and some of the gray tones and the lighting and stuff. It would
-[¢;;~-.,~.,- to ,n~ from t'esc :slgns and wl~at Js potentially proposed that it lsn't
go.lng 't.o ~nake it look really army better but I'm going to leave that to the
o4~,¢.:,-~ ~n~f p.:)~,:.n~i.~l].y the tenants. Oon't we have illumination standards as f~r
,~:~: how bright ,~nd neon versus anything else? Don't we have armythlng?
P~,ul Kr,*...:t::,~' The new site plan ordinance does regulate the amount of foot
r;ar, dle:~ that can appear at the property line to half a foot candle. Now that's
r,~,t v~:r>, !,r~gf~t b,-:L you can see something quite a ways off that's below that
c:utoff_ Of course a sJ. gn is not shielded. It's just designed to project out so
3~
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
it can meet that half a foot candle standard and still be found to be annoying
to comehody who's trying to sleep.
Brad Johnson: I think the answer to that one...concerned that we simply turn
off the back signs when the business is done at the end of the day which, how
late would you guys possibly Fun?
.lohn .)acobson' Typically our evening hours will end at 8:00 but we are...
Councilman Workman: In the summer probably not at ali.
~rad Johnson: Not at all in the evenings. Maybe 9:00 or 10:00 and we could
just it up for that whole...and just make that a regulation like we have a lot
of other regulations.
Councilman Workman: Are you leaving this then at 5 on each side and that's it?
Nayor Chmiel: Yes.
Councilman Workman: Okay, is that a part of one of the stipulations?
8)-~d Joh)~son: We're just saying that's what we thought it was approved and
we're comlng back and arguing the polnt saying...
· iC:,unc:~lm~Fi Workman: If you have a demand for more than 10 signs are you going
to be putting more slgns up?
Drad Johnson: No. We're quite comfortable. We'll have $ major tenants.
Mayor Chmiel: I don't know where they'd put them anymore Tom.
Councilman Johnson: In their windows.
Brad Johnson: ...look like also. We're going to have 5 signs. We do not
anticipate, we'11 probably have about 10 tenants in the building. 3 or 4 of the
major tenants, the second largest tenant in the buildlng ls not going to have a
~[gn and that's the owner.
Council~nan Workman: I guess and I don't know, we can all try to imagine how
th~ going to all look, etc. but.
Drad Johnson: Remember we have to come back each time we do do a sign. We're
back to see these folks right? You've got your staff. We've got to pull a sign
permlt. There's all kinds of checks and balances.
Council. man Workman: We like to see them Brad. But I guess I don't know really
what we're going to accomplish by 2 on the front versus 5 on the front and as it
pans out, I don't know. It's the whole marketing question about a business'
ablllty to promote itself and obviously they have the right. They're not even
fi11[ng the requirement. Half of their requirement for the sign square footage
and so I think we went a long way around the block on this one and I'd like to
move approval.
37
CtLy Cour:c:jl H~o~ino - J~ne 4, 1990
Col.tn,':.;.luorl,,~r, OimJ. c.r: Well I have a few things that I'd lik~. to say too. I
9d:~:~:;. ir~y :,;,&ii-~ conce~'n Js that because it is so very visible, I don't ~ind 5
:~iO~l:o c, rl ~.i'l. hr:f' side. I ~ould like to see uniformity however ~nd if thaL oe~ns
.:;.~-:;~;.~';, ,: r: ],:[~.e,' :~izo, I guess I would ~t least on the 78th side. I uould
;... ',- ¢ -~ ,:- -r to ::;os il: ,,et ]~t up in the back at all. I don't mind lighting in the
.:-.:.,~ .:..-,,,...,.~.-*. .;. ¢;a.~. sec:, yell kno~ ~e can have regulations that say okay they
h,~vc: [,~ }.,z. ,:,fl by 8:00 but there's invariably going to be a break in that and
,.:7,.].~ ~ a ~ . ~. I ~.
-. ~,a'.~ ..... , ..... :pa.f't[~enl people in here co~,plaini~9.
7'f',.,,l 3oi~l',:.;..ori~ Remember Ursu].a that ~,;hole back parking lot's lit. That's a well
~. ~ ,..,~,:: par k"..~,..3 ~.~:,~.
St'feet lights in the back parking lot are going to be ~orse
¢.Otl,',[;.~l'..JO;fi¢~l'[ O'~i'n].e'£' ¢~nd th~:y'll be in here complaining.
~-',',." ,'rohn,.3c:~' We/]. th,zt's a require,,ent that the City had that it be very well
.-.'.t ::c: ~c. rl~dn't h:tv~~_ crime ~n the bac:k.
~c,~;~-,,,n It'.-3 ,~]so very late By 4:30 .in the evening in the wintertime
,:,:-,d f f t~;"~-c open until 8:00, ~e can't.
B~-',~d 3ol,nson' The f'eal problem is people finding their ~ay to the proper place
· .~,,~ the'r'~ :. 2 o'r- 3 places in there that are going to be open in the evening.
1
2i ;;.ma;- T., '? tl,:~ c:linic .i.s one and the health services. Those are two. The other
~ hr.-: ~.o,,' t think...
,Sounct.l~oh;;In 9i,r~le'r'-'. ~hat are you going to do ~ith those people coming?
Johnson: Ar;; they going to have sepa'rate entrances?
ra..~, Johnson; ..... " There at-e different entrances.
.... Lc:, Z think if ~e have for those signs to go off at a speeLfic
",:mc:.~ T th.~nk th&t would alleviate that.
Brad ..~ohn~..,on' I think by ~0;00 or 9;00 or something like that. It is going to
be ~e. il lit. I mea~ (here's going to be a lot of candle po~er back there just
f;-om tf,~. ;L.[ght:-~ ~n tl'~: paT'king lot.
Don 4sl',~o¢'th: Thei-e J.s uniformity in terms, ~hen we had first talked about
signing,'; t~c, ~:.,.i'~ concerned I think uith the point that. Councilmember Oimlet"s
,~'tt~r, pti~9 to brir, 9 up and that's tho unifor,,ity. The ~aF that ~as built in ~as
~:'. +h~ :3~9i-, hat" . .
:. ~(;:.:: the~,se[vr:s so that's a very distinct, exact area We've used
Lh~ $:IBe cofic¢)l>t ~.~th the Reta&l gest area and also w&th Kenny's. Ho~ ~J. th&n
., ~. ¢, , I
,:..~..:~-: t~;,.~(,a thouoh you c~,n get different s~gns and a tot of tidal depends again,
~s they bt'ought out, thc number of letters ~n the business. So Kenny's ~11 be
;; :t.;Ff~:F~nt site ,:.~nd : tf,.tnk Your Hour 61ass CLeaners goes on for 20 feet or
sc,,othin9 Ii. ks I.h;~t. Yottr' ~ajesty's. But agaln, they are all controlled to
38
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
Councilman 3ohnson: Probably different sizes. Is there any restrictions on
having flashing?
Hayor Chmiel: These are going to be just lit. No flashing. Yeah, I'd object
strongly to that.
3ohn Jacobson: Hy organization, they wiI1 not be fiashing signs.
counciiman Workman: WeiI I'd again move approvai with the stipulation that they
be off in the rear once hours are over. Somebody fiip off the signs.
H.~yor Chmiei: Okay, there's a motion on the fIoor. Is there a second?
Councilman Boyt: I'll second that. I've got a question.
H~yol- Chmici: Go ahead. Ask your question Bill.
Councilman Boyt: Where are you going to put the pylon sign? As long as we're
iai. king about signs, we might as well figure out where that's going.
Dob Copeland: Well that has been on the site plan and there's never been any
question about that just to refresh your memory. The pylon sign is right there.
Councilman Workman: By the proposed driveway through there?
Bob Copeland: That's correct. This would be the proposed driveway.
Councilman Boyt: And that was how hlgh? Just off hand. Was that fairly close
to the ground?
Sob Copeland: It's under 5 feet.
Courlcilman 3ohnson: Oh, that's a ground sign then?
Oob Copeland: Oh yes.
Councilman 3ohnson: It's not a pylon sign.
~ob Copeland: It's not a masslve Amoco 0il type sign. It's approximately a
foot and a half high, 14 feet wide and...
Councilman Boyt: What's going to be on that?
Bob Copeland: We don't know yet.
Hayor Chmlel: Okay, we had a motion on the floor wlth a second.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Soyt seconded to approve the amended Site
Plan as sho~n on the plans dated April 18. 1989 with the condition that the
lights on the rear of the building towards the apartment building be turned off
when business hours are over. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously.
39
CJ. ty Counc:.i. 1 Meeting - June 4, ].990
Co,tncilm~n ~oyt.' That's how we get into things that 6 months from now we're
going to look at each other and say, son of a gun.
Councilwoman D.i.m].er: ttow did we decide on that.
FINAL PLAT APPROVAL, ZIMMERMAN FARM LOCATED ON DOGWOOD ROAD EAST OF LAKE
MINNEWASHTA AND NORTH OF CRIMSON BAY, PETER AND DEANNA BRANDT.
Jo Ann Olsen: This is fo;' the final plat approval. The Planning Commission
recommended for as a condition of approval of the preliminary plat approval.
The only discrepancy thaf. we have is that the applicant, the City is
recommending th,xt the turn around be made to city standards which includes being
paved. The applicant is requesting that [hey do not have to do that. I know he
is here to discuss that and Gary is also here to discuss why we do want to have
.it mzde to City standards. Other than that we recommerld approval.
Cour, c:ilman Johnson: As the applicant comes up, during your discussion I'd like
to know why we got preliminary plans stamped preliminary without a surveyor's
sJ. gr, a'[ure and where's page i of 2? This seems to be a very incomplete package
that ~ don't want to eveT~ consider tonight.
Kurt Laughinghou~e: Mr. Johnson, I think you got a complete package. I don't
know what you got but we submitted a dozen complete packages.
Council. man ,lohnson' Pre].iminary.
M,~yot' Chmiel: ..Sheet 2 of 2 as it says.
Cour, cilma;, Johnson: Right. Preliminary. Subject to revision without notice.
I've got ,.~ proh].em doing a final plat that's subject to revision without notice
an~l r, ot s.i.g;~ed by a surveyor and it's preliminary in nature.
Kurt Laugl~Jr, ghouse: Mi-. Mayor, Mr. Johnson. I don't think you have the final
pl. at document that were prepared, complete. A plat that is fully legal and
we're not trying to cheat and we're not going to change anything.
Cour, cilman Johnson: I want to see it.
Kurt Laughinghouse: I think that's what was submitted. And the staff
recommended it. If there was something wrong, I wish the staff had mentioned it
a long time ago. We turned it in 3 weeks ago. If there's really problems with
it, we'll certair, ly Fix them.
Councilman Johnson: I'm the one that noticed it. They didn't.
Kurt Laughinghouse: I'm Kurt Laughinghouse. I have the staff's recommendation
wi,ich includes 8 points and we have no problem with the 8 points and ue only
want to speak to point number ~ and that is the actual construction of the turn
around. Whe~ it was approved at the preliminary plat point, it was the language
in ~here would be built to city rural specifications and none of us addressed
the questj, on of whether that was paved oi' unpaved. Frankly we didn't think
abo~t it. We assumed that at the end of a 1 mile unpaved road that we meant
unpaved. Then we got, our engineer got ~ hold of the specifications in the book
~0
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
and it's clearly paved and that's why we prepared the final plat with
Alternative ~1 being the paved specification. We understand that that's the
Clty's standard. A couple of weeks ago when I flrst discussed this wlth staff
and some members of the Counc11, I said that our principle reason and this is
still true, are principle reason for not wantlng to pave thls cul-de-sac ls that
it is after all at the end of an unpaved road. A way below standard road. It
ls intended to be temporary but we just dldn't thlnk that it was a good 1dca to
put all that oll into all that asphalt for a temporary cul-de-sac, and when I
discussed thls wlth Dave Hempel he said well yeah temporary might mman 20 years
and we understand that but ultimately that cul-de-sac will almost certainly be
torn up and carted off. We thought that a ? ton standard, and that's what
Alternative ~2 whlch is what we proposed, 7 ton standard would be a legitimate
substitute in thls area. In thls rural settlng and it would serve for 20 years
just as surely as no cul-de-sac at the end of that road has served for 50 years.
That was our feellng. Subsequently, in fact just thls afternoon I got two
different bids. Our engineer thought that the whole cost would be $4,000.00 to
$&,O00.O0 elther way. Paved or unpaved because of the extra rock. It turns out
that the lowest of the two bids that I got so far, and I have $ sets of plans
out to get this thlng done, ls $6,300.00 unpaved and $8,700.00 paved so there's
a substantial difference. $o there's a little bit of difference in money. Not
the end of the world and we're prepared to meet that clty standard but we argue
on the grounds of aesthetics and environment. Least impact on environment and
the fact that it's really a rural settlng and having a gravel turn around out
there is more compatible wlth the whole neighborhood. We think that is most
appropriate and we've discussed it wlth staff and staff has thelr arguments.
The standard arguments but valid arguments for paving it. Emergency and
that kind of thlng. We accept whatever ls appropriate.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Kurt. Any discussion?
Kurt Laughinghouse: And Hr. Mayor, excuse me. One more point. If there really
are any shortages on the plat, this is the first I've heard of them. We will
make the plat fully legal and comply wlth State law and comply with all the
requirements of the City's. These 8 requirements and indeed the 11 other
requirements in the original.
Mayor Chmlel: I'm sure you will because when it comes time for that final plan
I have to sign it. Any discussion? I guess you and I had some conversation.
You gave me a call one evenlng and I indicated my position, where I thought that
it should be tarred but afterwards I went out and I still am in a position of
halfway supporting it but I've drlven through town. Picked up on three
different roads within the City that are still gravel and dirt and I feel that
what's good for one ls maybe good for the other. But maybe as we progress,
these are things that we have to look at. I just wanted to interject that to
the rest of the Counc11 to make you aware of the fact that there are gravel
roads within our city and not necessarily out in the rural setting and I'll open
it up for discussion.
Councilwoman Dlmler: I'd 11ke to hear from staff, thelr polnt of view why they
want it paved.
Gary Warren: I guess our position ls that we're talklng about a turn around
area. Not just a roadway area here so it is an area that is in turning
41
City Council Neetir,9 - June 4, 1990
movements, the gravel does get a little bit more wear and tear because of the
outward pres~ of f. he t:[res on turns and such so it's going to take a little bit
more ab~tse from the turning standpoint. We do have bituminous driveways and such
ottt there so it's r, ot like ue don't have any bituminous out there. But you're
correct Mr. Hayor in that we do have King's Road and West 96th Street and
roadways Jn the city here that we've been trying like the devil here to
eliminate to be honest. Bluff Creek Drive is a good example. ~nd it's because
of the fact that they end ,zp to be a maintenance headache. They need to be
graded periodically. When we tolerate a private drive situation, that's a
compromise I thir, k in ti~e City's standards from one perspective in that
invariably we seem ~o get calls at the City Hall to come out and say why can't
you fix o~tr gravel road. Even though in this case it wouldn't be the City's
roadway. You do 9et new homeowners out there that have a right I guess to ask
f.o have tl~ings up to standard and not have to tolerate a bumpy road so I guess
our position is where it's a reasonable long term investment, life cycle
Jr, vestment, to put the bituminous on to sea]. up the coat and the gravel and
mil,.'[mJ.×e e'rosio~, impacts. ~nd in the turn around we've compromised on the
radius down to 40 feet from our standard and the turning movements and such in
there I think were more of our real concern on it.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion?
Counci].n, dr~ Johnson: This is a tough one because the arguments are very logical.
That you go into, you drive down some very poor roads to end up on a real nice
chunk of asphalt and what's that road. I never can remember the name of it.
Sunset Trail we did about 3 years ago. It was a mistake to do that. ~nother
mistake we made down there is not asphalting that road in the first place.
96th, they're all that way. It's tough to turn around. This one I'm
personally, it.'s a private driveway. This has existed for many years. Uery
few people go down there that get stuck down there. There's always room to turn
a-m'ound ir, somebod?'s driveway. ~e don't plow this right?
Gary ~arren:
Coui,cilmar, 3ohr, son: It's all up to the individual homeowners to plow it. ~s
Far as city vehicles going down there, it'd only be firetrucks and rescue
vehicles trying to get through. Zt'd be tough to bring the ladder truck down
there.
Gary Warren: Plowing is another apsect of, that's where you lose a lot of your
gravel.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah.
Gary Warren: Especially in the spring.
COUrlcilman Johnson: Require then, all to have 4 wheel drive vehicles down there
instead.
Peter B'rarldt: I'm Peter Brandt. One of the applicants. Just some of the
conce'rrls that you've voiced in terms of the number of vehicles traveling down
that and yOtt ~USt addressed that. There's golng to be two additional homeowners
on the road in additlon to the homeowners that are along Dogwood Road today and
42
Clty Council Meeting - June
as Kurt mentioned, the turn around that has been there ls gravel. Z mean it's a
mile long gravel road at this point with a turn around at the end today. That
turn around has seem to have served the homeowners that are there today very
well. We think the additional turn around whlch ls really an addition to what's
there today which isn't much, will serve our needs very well for the
unforeseeable future. Z mean if development does occur, then you have sort of
Alternative B whlch calls for a blacktop road going in there up to clty
standards and so on and so forth but for 2 additional homeowners, it just
doesn't seem totally reasonable to me to put a piece of blacktop essentially out
in the woods at the end of a gravel road so we can have a piece of blacktop out
there to have us so we can maintain it when we don't really want that blacktop
out there in the first place as Kurt said for the aesthetic reasons and also the
cost factor.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Councilman Workman: Are we talklng about paving just the turn around?
Councilman 8oyt: No, it's the whole thing.
Councilman Workman: From the turn around up to the elbow or the elbow?
Mayor Chmiel: What's the distance on that road Kurt? Do you know?
Kurt Laughlnghouse: Mr. Mayor, our understanding was just that the turn around
would be paved. Not any other.
Gary Warren: That's what the quotes were based on right?
Kurt Laughinghouse: Yes sir. 40 foot radius.
Councilman Workman: Expensive basketball court. I would, it's making less
sense by the second but I guess, who's going to plow this road?
Mayor Chmiel: It's their responsibility.
Councilman Workman: I'd say it's their own personal problem and thelr plowers
problem and UPS problem and the mall's problem and if the mall can't get
through, they don't go through. They don't deliver the mail.
Kurt Laughinghouse: Mail is not delivered to the end of the cul-de-sac. It's
delivered to approximately to the entrance of the Camp Tanadoona. In fact
there's klnd of a turn around there. It's the end of the world.
Councilman Johnson: Then there's the threatening signs. Private drives. Stay
away.
Councilman Workman: Except for lot shoppers, that's the only people that are
going to be turning around down there and they may not like what it looks like
down there. I don't see any reason to push it but.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, any other discussion?
43
Ci[y Council Heetir, 9 -Jur, e 4, 1990
Counc:iln,ar~ BoyL' Z ~hink it ought to be paved.
Coul,cf. llnan Workman: I knew you'd say that.
Councilman Boyt: 3ust waiting to find out what you were going to do Tom. Are
you gui~,g ~o p..:tve you~' driveway?
Peter P, randt: Tho very end of it, yes. Going to the house.
Councilman 3oi~n.~or,: 4t the turn around by the house? That will be paved.
Peter Brandt: ar, area to park cars.
l(urt La,tghirmghou.ce-' Jus[ for the geography of i~ Mr. Mayor, this is the end of
the cut'rent].y traveled sort of publlc road and then there's a couple of
driveways for these two homes. Zt's at this point that everybody turns around
v~rttt,.~lly now and just some plain old wooded land. The turn around would be in
this viciniLy. There's two options but tile primary option is one we discussed
with the city engineer. This is the drieway to the Brandt's home which is way
ovn¢ here on Lot 2 and this would be a dirt or gravel driveway. Z think as Hr.
R'randt .sugge..?.'l. ed, they want to pave a turn around, some parking here.
Mayor Cl~miel: Okay. 4ny other discussion? Hearing none, I'll entertain a
motion.
Che;-y] L. eJ.: My name is Cheryl Lei. I represent Mr. Ken Daniels with regard to
th.'-.', purpose of Lot J.. He's not here this evenlng because we recelved late
notlcr.; of this in¢.etlng and weren't aware that there was one scheduled for Hay
31st I bel.ieve. I object to the plat that is trying to be flled thls evenlrlg on
behalf oF Hr'. Oanlels. I've not recelved a copy of [hat plat nor has he.
When ~ presented this payee1 of land to him to purchase, tl~e only easements on
the lot were a power line easement and an easement for a driveway uhlch was to
possibly be tenlporary. Since the Planning and Council meetings, since about
October the easements have increased to include also a 40 foot easement running
along the west 5.50 feet of Lot 1. A 30 foot easement running along the north
1,130 feet of Lot 1. A 20 foot trail easement along the east 346 feet of Lot 1.
Orm this basls I feel that a driveway easement should and I believe may be the
obligation', of the Clty of Chanhassen to provide access to each landowner.
There's access lay Crimson Bay where I believe the City has a 25 foot easement
and also at Dogwood Road where the Clty has a 20 foot easement plus an
additional 40 foot easement that will be taken wlth the filing of this plat.
Those two could access Lot 2 very well. and are controlled by the Clty. There's
no apparent need for 3 roadway systems to reach Lot 2. The private driveway
ac'ross these lots could only create some problems in the future for both land
owners. The question should probably be why are the three roadways needed and
there may be a better answer to the plat that's belng filed tonlght. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Any other discussion?
Councilman Boyt: In discussing with staff about you may recall when we first
looked at this we talked about having some sort of way of protecting a road
system or, that 100 acre parcel. I just wanted to be in the record that staff
i1~ felt that tl~e way to do that is to put it into at the least cost. Is to put
44
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
it into the Comprehensive Plan. Intially we talked about officially mapping it.
I think it's very important that staff follow through on that and that we have a
road plan for thls 100 acres. So wlth that I would move approval of the flnal
plat wlth staff recommendations.
Mayor Chmlel: Is there a second?
Councilman Workman: Would you accept an amendment7
Councilman Boyt: Well I dldn't get a second so go ahead and make a motlon.
councilman Workman: I'd make a new motion to approve staff's recommendations
except for I belleve 11.
Councilman Johnson: There's only 8 conditions.
Councilman Workman: I'm sorry. Number G.
Mayor Chmiel: Number G is the one that you brought up regarding that.
Jo Ann 01sen: I thlnk you st111 want some of that wordlng because if lt's not
going to be paved, you still want the ? ton gravel.
Councilman Johnson: You don't want to delete ~. You just want to modlfy ~.
Councilman Workman: Modify ~ to remove bituminous.
Councilman Boyt: It's not in there now unless it's wrltten lnto Alternative 1.
Councilwoman 01mler: Unless you want to add to there that it meets...
Councilman Workman: As long as they can bring the road up to ? ton, they don't
need to use bituminous as it reads anyway maybe.
Gary Warren: I would suggest if I could that the road be constructed, if you're
going to go that way, to ? ton and maintain that ? ton. In other words, as
gravel and thlngs deteriorate out there, that they may have to bring it back up
to that standard if that's what you're getting at.
Councilman Workman: I thlnk that's agreeable.
Councilwoman Oimler: Who's going to check it to see if it's maintained at
that?
Gary Warren: Well lt's just that in the event that it does deteriorate and it
does become permanent temporary so to speak, that there is some ability to
requlre it to be brought up to standards.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, is there a second?
Councilwoman 01mler: I'll second that one.
~,,';.;.y COLI. J'IC~i I'ieci-..L[,g --Jun~ 4. 1990
Councilm~L~, Morkmal'l-' Hr. Mayor', have we addressed the woman who spoke last's
concerl,s? H:.~vn we ,~d,lressed or explained to her reasonably what the easements,
t~,t~';, are..strapped to this thing? Why?
COUl,OT. lm~n ,Tohnsol~: B~.~.sLc~J. ly slle':s about to lose her- sa].e.
~oUliC:.t].,ll~Y, ~,oy~.: No. We went through thJ.~-~ for 3 hours. I think if she wants
to know the background, 1i'd be much easle~' to read Lhe Hinutes of that meeting
th[,n it ~o~]d [)~ to hold another 2 hour discussion on whether or not...
Councilman Wof-kman: I don't pf'opose a 2 hour discussiorl. I just want to make
sure that people in the audience do understand and now she does perhaps, l
would move approval.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to approve the Final Plat
$8g-ll rot Zimmerman Farms as shown on the final plat dated Hay 21, lggO with
the following conditions:
1. The City shall offJcia}ly map the road alignment as illustrated by Exhibit 2
of tile Si'. EngiileeY~ng Techn:Lci,~n memo dated April 4, 1990.
2. Erode. ion c:ontYol ~fmall be Type II.
3. Th.3 ,.tpp.ticant shall receive and comply with any necessary permits from the
~ate'rsh~:d Disc. riel and Department of Natural. Resources.
4. TIi.i: two aDprov(sd septic sit~:s on Lots 1 and 2, Block 1. Zimmerman Farm shall
be staked and r)rescrved.
5. Any access, including a dock or boardwalk, to Lake Minneuashta from Lot 2,
Block 1 would requlre a wetland permit as would an>, dredging or removal of
vegetation Jn the area of the shoreline.
Construction, plans and specifications for- the temporary turnaround shall be
submitted to the City Engir, eer for' approval. The turnaround shall be bullt
.trl accordance with Alternative No. 2 shown on Pla~ B to the City'~ rural
ro~d desigr, (? ton). The grade for the turnarom~nd should be reduced to
The tl~rnaround :sectio~l shall be m~inta[ned at all times to the ? ton
standard ~.i. tha m.tnlmum of 17 inches of crushed rock.
7. The ~pplicant al,all extend thc description of the trail easement westerly 25
fee[ to be continuous ulth the extension of Crimson Bay Road.
The ,zppl. icant sh&].l enter into a Development Contract arid provide the
necessa'r), f]rlancia], se.c:Ltrlty to as:-~ure time property installation of the
ilnprovelll~)nt:s.
All voted in favor and the mellon carried.
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
PHT CORPORATION, 1500 PARK ROAD:
A. REPLAT OF LOTS 1 AND 2, BLOCK 1 CHANHASSEN LAKES BUSINESS PARK 5TH ADDITION
INTO ONE LOT.
B. SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A 45,900 SO. FT. EXPANSION TO THE EXISTING FACILITY.
Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, hopefully this one's a little easier than the ones
we've tackled so far. The applicants are requesting approval to construct a
48,000 square foot addition to the existing PMT structure. The firm
manufactures medical appliances and the growth rate has outpaced their square
footage and they need the expansion to continue to grow. The building is
architecturally attractive. It blends into the original structure. In this
picture the original structure starts over here. The new addition is a 2 story
addition that matches architecturally the existing building. There's a very
high quality office component at the southwest corner where really most
appropriately it should be. That's the most prominent point on the site where
it's adjacent to other streets. Access was an issue for staff on the original
proposal. Initially we were quite concerned with the proposal to gain access to
Audubon Road fearing some traffic concerns. We've inputted data that we got
from the Eastern Carver County Traffic study and concluded that that really
isn't the significant concern that we thought it was. However, we did want some
modifications to that curb cut and to the building to make that entrance as safe
as possible. The applicant is working there to do that. We now have a 30 foot
wide curb cut. There will be a sign because trucks can only move in from this
curb cut because of the loading dock situation. The building was shaved a
little bit in the Corner over there to accommodate the turning movements and
that driveway does align with the driveway across the street which is where we
wanted the most safe location. Parking was also a bit of an issue. There is an
existing parking shortage due to the growth rate of the company. They are
providing considerable additional parking on site. However, what they're doing
is using a provision in the newly adopted parking ordinance. Basically it's
called a proof of parking concept where what they're doing is they're telling us
they don't need to construct all the stalls at this time to serve their needs.
What we're doing is we're saying that's fine. We just want to know where you
can construct them if we do determine that they're necessary in the future. In
this case they'd be constructed on the adjacent property which is owned by PMT
for expansion north of the current site and what we'd do to protect that is we'd
require the filing of a permanent easement against that property so that if it
sold at some point in the future, we can still get those stalls in there if we
need it. Site grading and drainage are generally acceptable. There's a couple
modifications we're looking at in terms of the west side of the property to
protect some existing utilities in there. The Planning Commission reviewed the
item on May 2nd and unanimously recommended approval. As I said, some
modifications were incorporated since the Planning Commission review to resolve
some of our concerns. We are recommending approval of the preliminary plat and
the site plan.
Councilwoman Dimler: I have a question Paul. The access to Audubon Road. I
was over there today. There are some significantly sized trees. Are they going
to be in any way jeopardized by that access?
47
City Coul~c~l HeeLing .. June d, J990
Paul Kr,:,us:-::: Councilwoman Oim].er, I've drivel~ past there too and I see where
tho..-:e tr~.es &re and I don't believe, ~ oeuld be wro~g but Z don't believe
th,:,.y';'e ,~ll~n.~'e th,~ entrance i~: going to occur. There's a couple of trees that
really stand al. one there that are not il, very great shape that probably will be
n~cked by t. he gr'ading act~.vity. Now the significant stand of tl'ees start north
of that p'~-op~,~-ty a.~; you're going up the hill to where Prince is. There's going
to be. an is..~.:~ze when they come in and develop that new site to the north but at
this point J.n tZm.c, they're really not getting into the heavy tree stands.
Councilwoman Dimler: I noticed too that you're proposing the access across from
the HcGlynn, tl~e :southerLy one of the HcGlynn.
Patti K~-auos' R.i. ght.
Council~onlan Dimler: And that is only a short dis'Lance from Park Drive. I
don't really underotand why they want tl'l~t access. Why would it be necessary?
Paul Krauss: Why's it ¥~ecessary? Ill terms of a circulation standpoint, this
site ha~; some problems. Basically you've got truck loading docks back in here.
To you g~.t to th~.m, you couldn't 'really back in. You'd have to almost back a
t~'uck down in here to manuever it back in there. Right now ~hey come around the
side of the building. That manuevering room is going to be cut off by the
;.:xpansion so re.',11y they're limited to trucks coming down Audubon Road, turning
i~, ~r,d tl,e~'l b~ck.i, ng .ira',to f. he truck stall. There are some ways to design the
:-~i't;,~ around needing that but what they would have to do is significantly
comp~-omise th~, s.i. ze of the addition.
Councilwoman Oimler' So they can't take Park Drive and come in and access the
back of the bull. ding?
Paw.1. Krauss: Well, you could but what you'd have to do is put a drive aisle
a.'~-ound th1::; side oF the building where it would chew up square footage and
wouldi~'t be particularly attractive and frai;kly Councilwoman Dimler, that was
our original proposal and we only backed off of that when we found out that the
traffic that we had been ~,ntlcipating wasn't as bad as we thought.
H~yo~- C!'lm.i.e]' Any other discussion?
CoLtnCilWoman gill,let: That w,is Willy.
COU)lcilm,xn Boyt' I'd move approval of the replat of Lots 1 and 2, Block 1,
C. hanhassen Lakes Business Park.
Workman: Second.
Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve Preliminary Plat
¢90-~ subject to the following conditions:
Provide the following easemer, ts'
a. Standard df'airlage ~rld utility easements overall exterioi- propef'ty lines.
48
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
b. Reconfirm the location of drainage and utility easements along the
western and northern sides of the site to cover in-place and proposed
utilities.
c. Concurrently, provlde a permanently recorded easement over Lot 4, Block
1, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park ith Additlon runnlng in favor of the
City for access and parking of up to 63 parking stalls. The easement
should be worded so that it cannot be vacated without the wrltten
approval of the City of Chanhassen.
d. Staff is further recommending that no building permits be issued until
the plat and all requlred easements have been recorded.
Provide an acceptable final plat.
3. Enter into a development agreement with the City.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, let's move to the next one. Site Plan review.
Councilman Boyt: Does anyone have any concerns with the site plan from the
staff report?
Mayor Chmiel: I don't.
Councilman Workman: No. I'd move approval.
Councilman 8oyt: I'll second that.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Boyt seconded to approve Site Plan 1~6-3
without variances subject to the following conditions:
1. HVAC equipment shall be screened by a parapet wall or by a screen wall
constructed of materials compatible wlth the building exterior. All
exterlor trash dumpsters shall be screened by a masonry enclosure
constructed out of materials compatible with the principal structure. The
entlre bullding must be provided with fire sprinklers.
Modify the plans as required to reflect the revised curb cut illustrated on
the revlsed detail drawlng. Post "truck entrance" slgns on the Audubon Road
curb cut and an "exlt" sign on the eastern Park Road curb cut.
3. The Proof-of-Parking stalls shall be constructed by the owner upon request
by the City at such time that the City determines there to be a parklng
shortfall.
- Provide at least 3 handicapped stalls.
- Compact car stalls should be clearly marked with directional signage.
4. Revise the grading plan to limit fill over the watermain along Audubon Road
to a maximum depth of 4 feet. Provide an erosion control plan for approval.
City Council Meet ir, 9 --June 4, 1990
r
The storm sewci' extension along A~.~dubon Road and the north side of the site
shall be built 1. o City standards and conveyed to the City for maintenance
upon completion. A developmeT~t agreement is required. Watershed District
,-~pprov,t! if required.
Peri. se plal,s to provide two additional fire hydrants as directed by the City
Fire M:~'r-shal.
7. Revise the landscaping plans to add four 8'-12' high Douglas Firs in the
nortl',wcsterr, corner of the site to screen the loading docks. Relocate
lar, dsc~pe material to avoid placement over the City watermain. 4 landscape
bond is f'equired prior to the issuance of any building permits.
8. Site plan approval J.s contingent upon the filing of the final plat.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
APPROVE PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS AND AUTHORIZE ADVERTISING FOR BIDS FOR THE
UPGRADE OF AUDUBON ROAD FROM SOO LINE RAILROAO TO LYMAN BOULEVARD, IMPROVEMENT
PROJECT 89-18.
Publ.ic Pf'e. sen I::
Name Address
Jerry fllvey
Doug Barinsky
6ayJ. e ?~ I..oi.s Deg].e,'
Don & Marsha Whit.~;
~.3. & 3oanne Cochrane
3ames & Barb Nel:~or,
b~illy Nolnau
Tom Hlchel
Mr. & Hrs. Marlin Edwards
D~vid Stockdale
H~r~ld Eriksei~
1831 Sunridge Court
8731 Lyman Blvd.
1630 Lyma~ Blvd.
8050 Audubon Road
1751Sunridge Cour~
1591 Heron Drive
8541 Audubon Road
8941 Audubon Road
8950 Audubon Road
7210 Galpin Blvd.
HNTB
Gary Warren: I'll give a brief overview Mr. Mayor. As I know you're aware a
number of re.-;ide~ts here that arc interested in the project. The project
basic:ally lnvolves the portlor, of Audubon Road from the rallroad tracks down
to Lymar, Blvd.. Tile northerly quarter of the project basically down to Lake
Drive West area lr, here would call fof'...urban sectlon uhlch would be concrete
clzr,.b and gutter clmlla'r to what cur'rently exists north of the rallroad tracks to
the commercial area. The remainder of the project was basically a road overlay
I>'r'oject for the mo~t p~rt with some minor corrections of the pavement where we
know we have some sub-base problems and also in the area of the Barinsky
property o1~ tf~e :~outherly end just before Sunridge Court, we have a very
'r-estrlctive slght dlsta~c:e problem there where we need to shave the h111 to get
b;,ck to ,-} 'reasonab].e safety standard for sight distance. The road section on
the north portion of the project ls such in the presence of the concrete curb
50
City Council Heeting - June 4, 1990
and gutter and basically will include the installation of sanitary sewer, storm
sewer and watermain. The southerly segment of the project basically is rural
section matchlng the existlng 24 foot wldth pavement in width and in the profile
as much as possible with the exception that I noted at the Barinsky property.
The road sectlon at the property, the dotted 11ne here showing the existing road
grade and...showing the proposed road grade. It's basically about a 6 foot drop
that has to occur in thls area to provlde the proper slght distance for Sunrldge
Co,irt primarily. The project in this particular area we have been aware and
been speaking wlth Mr. Barinsky in particular since it's his property that
receives the most lmpact from it because we're all aware of the several large
spruce trees that are on the property. On or very close to the right-of-way
line. We have gone through a couple of scenarios of the project scope in this
area and the latest version which is in the Council packet, the plans now
reflect inclusion of a retaining wall and storm sewer structure to basically
mlnimize the lmpact of the property so that we can stay wlthln the current city
right-of-way line which exits right here. We are compromising on what's called
the clear zone requirements of the State in providing basically 19 feet whlch ls
measured from the edge of the pavement to the nearest obstruction which actually
would come to here. Whlch normally the State would requlre for thls magnitude
of a roadway, a 45 mph speed limit a 31 foot clear zone. But we belteve that in
looking at the lmpact of the property that would be required to basically taper
this grade out into the Barinsky property, that this lsa reasonable compromise
in that regard although the trees that are along the right-of-way 11ne, we don't
expect that all of them will have to be removed. We will try to save whatever
trees we can. We'll be worklng wlth the DNR forester in that regard but there
certainly are some that encroach very definitely on the right-of-way and
probably would be impacted when you end up putting in your...and foundation for
the retaining wall. The plans also include a trail along the east side of the
project as dlrected initially. As you recall, we're looklng at the west slde
but due to continuity with the ultimate interest of getting to Lake Ann Park and
across TH 5, the east slde was felt to be a better locatlon from that
perspective. In that regard we are showing the trail plans on the east side.
It's a bituminous 8 foot path for the southerly section up to Lake Drlve West
and then north of that is concrete consistent with the urban section in that
area. The project costs, we have estimated, we have done a revised cost
estimate, our consultants have and we are estimating the project to be total
cost of $587,900.00. Wlth the exception of approximately $112,000.00 of speclal
assessments for the sanitary sewer and watermain benefit, the majorlty of the
project is proposed to be funded through tax increment financing and the City
Manager's comment, I'm sure you've all read. We have received the information
that full fundlng has been provided as confirmed by the County for the project
so the funding is in place in that regard. So we are requesting approval for
the plans as submitted this evening. The next step would be to authorize
advertising for bids to take the next step on the project.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Gary.
Councilman Johnson: I have a question for Gary.
Mayor Chmlel: Well go ahead, ask your question Jay.
Councilman Johnson: Gary, what would it at this point matter if we didn't
install the 8 foot trallway from Heron Drlve on down, made the improvements to
51
....,~"f.y Cour, cfl Meeting -- June 4, 1990
~,Ji',~.~'r~ il, the future ac; development occurs ir, the south, Lhat we have the area
.'-.,.nd .tide ability to in:~tall that path? Would it make a large financial
d.ifferehce in tl~e future as long as we've already, we put in the road sideways.
0~' nut sJdeway:-~ but road shou}der8 and put in the retaining wall and everything
wi,ere there's room for the path but not actually install the path. What do you
t.J~ink of tl~a'L .tc!e,~ ~ kind of what I'm asking?
Gar? Warren; Well there is definitely cost involved, especially in the south
:'hal c'.f (h,s pf-ojeci. ¢~ th:~ M.[c:hel's property as far as side slopes and such.
P¢cbai)]y the quostioi, i:s more will the tax increment monies be available in the
futu]s~ o~- not. Fundil,g sources ~ere a question. From a construction
sl. anclpoint, yeah you could cl,.~ the road~ay grading. I forgot to mention an
important paf't and that is ~hethel' tho trail is included or not, the retaining
~¢a]l is Fecommended to be buiJt and the trees themselves aye still going to have
fhat impact ~hothsr ~e bLtild a tra].], or not. But yes, you could do the sid~
s.lopJng and such and not pave the pa[h. Z guess that could be ~eft out. ;
th.~r,k tl~¢ cost of the b~tua~nous and such, at ~eas( on the southerly part of the
pro~,~ct, ~ may t)e ~ook~ng at $35,000.00 ~orth of.bitum&nous a~d g~adua~ ~th
t,-a~l cost,:: of m~ybe $80,000.00. So the b~tum2nous cost probabty 2sn't reat~y
that bi9 of an 2tea.
Don A~hwortfl: Mr. Mayor? Gary brought out a good point and Z would like to
researci~ the qu,?.stion ftti-tl'ler if the Council was willing to consider that. r
h,'-~v,: absolLttely no question that as a part of a nlunlclpal public improvement
pro~u, ct, doln9 the roadway, th.-*,t the City can construct, grade and construct the
[;';,ils ~s ,:-; part oF it. The questiorl becomes one, can the Clty delay that
i¢,art~or,. Pote~ti,xl].y come back in 3-4 years and use the dollars associated
~¢1t1~ [he tr~i1 as a stand along p'r'o~ect and Z don't know that answer.
Mayor Chm.[81: Okay. Good point. At this time I'd like to open it up. Ooug
Ba'rJrlsky has stopped at my house on Sunday and ~,ie ,had some discussion on this.
Doug, ~iou].cl you like to ,~ppro4~.ch it from your position?
BOUg Darinsky' Thank you Mr. Mayor. Z guess I'm lead spokesman of several
p,~oplc wI,o'd like (o comment tonight. We felt because there were several
d~fferent issues al~d as Gary has already represented, there's significarmt impact
to my personal propei'ty but I'll come back and comment on that later because
there's an overlaying issue here that quite a few people are concerned about and
wouJcl also like to comment. We decided that because there were a lot of people
repr~;sented in tl'm~' Audubon area, at least on the southern end, that we felt we
:::l,ot~.ld prob~b.ty get our' focus kind of .ir, writing and then present it to the City
Council for cons~cleration so I'd like to' 'read that because it was signed by
about 27 residents and affected people in the ~udubon area south. We the
under'sign',ed residermts and property owners would like to make the Chanhassen City
C(~tnc;~]....tw,ii-6: of our Op~lliOnS coilcernillg sev.r~l~ ~ issues in the proposed road
.~m,pi-(>vementc project, our concerns are primarily directed towards the southern
'' ed urals
sc.<:ciorm roferr to as a r cction but also includes some unnecessary
spe],dirmg of f.a>: dollars in the northern urban section as well. Number one, both
the urban and rural sections include the construction of the proposed sidewalk
trail t~mat wi.].l rtt]m from T}I 5 to Lyman 8.3. vd.. We as undersigned citizens
constitute a large majority of the Audubon Road residents do not feel that this
sidewalk/trail will benefit us or Gui' neighbors. The Audubo)m Road south area is
pf'.[ll{ai'il7 a rltr6.~ )'eside),tial area which is not almost fully developed or still
52
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
remains as open rural farmland. Two, a sidewalk trail to Lyman Blvd. on the
south will only lead at this polnt to open rural land which is currently owned
by the Degler famlly and operated as a commercial farm. There ls no other dense
population on the road nor is there any projected in the City planning process
for the area at thls time. Current sldewalk system whlch was started south
of TH 5 in Audubon has been poorly designed. It is not now being used. It's
currently covered by mud and dlrt in many places. We're concerned that a
sidewalk/trail placed in open rural areas will be subject to these same problems
unless significant landscaping dollars are spent, one to lnsta11 but more
importantly 2, to maintaln it. The taxpayers of Chanhassen have voted as a
majority not to spend tax revenues for the construction of sidewalks and tralls
ttnder the Comprehensive Plan. We request that the Chanhassen City Council
conslder the dlrectior, of thls vote. There are tens of thousands of dollars in
the proposed Audubon Road improvement that are not in fact road improvements at
all but rather sidewalk/trail installations. I'll polnt out as a slde issue
there that I don't disagree with 6ary's projection of the $35,000.00 of the
bituminous but I think there's a lot of dollars needed to actually put in the
base for what ultimately would be a trail because there's significant dlrt work
that has to be done on the southern end because of the slope of the hills. We
do support that basic repair and overlay of the Audubon Road south rural section
segment as it is in need of some repair. We do not agree in principle with the
concept of lowering the road in areas if it means the destruction or removal of
mature trees which line and beautify the area. At a time when other communities
such as St. Paul and Eden Prairie are actively pursuing programs to protect
their environment, we flnd it questionable that Chanhassen Clty Officials would
be recommending the opposite direction. The scenery and setting that line
Audubon Road south represent the historical rural setting of what Chanhassen is
and why the residents along Chanhassen road south 1lye there. We do not think
it's necessary to change the landscape to merely overlay the road. We will
appreciate that the elected City Council members of Chanhassen give our
proposals and opinions significant thought before considering the proposals for
the Audubon Road improvement project. At the time we prepared this we didn't
know 3ust how everyone felt about thls but we dld ultimately get almost 100~ of
all the residents of this Audubon south road. Both people that live on Audubon
Road or those that enter onto Audubon as their means of egress so with that
Mr. Mayor I'd like to just stop on my behalf for a couple minutes and give a few
other people a chance to comment.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you.
and address.
Come up to the mic please and state your name
Willy Molnau: I don't think I have to give my name. I'm Willy Holnau. I live
at 8541 Audubon Road. I've lived there for 66 years. This stretch of road that
you're talking about lowering, I remember 50 years ago. What you're planning
now will revert back to what it was 50 years ago. It will be lower with banks
straight up. And when that fllls full of snow, a shovel 50 years ago they
didn't have equipment to plow it so I suppose us neighbors will have to shovel
it because we don't have snow removal on Sunday up in our area. When
Hr. McHahon lived just south of the bridge, he was a fireman. They plowed the
road. In the last 2 years since he moved away, we don't have no Sunday snow
removal service. I have a pick-up with a plow. That's how we get out now but I
can't plow banks 6 feet lower than the wall 11ks the engineer proposed here. I
wanted to see him on Wednesday. I was here for pretty near an hour waiting to
C:;1. y Council M~';etl~g June 4, 1990
t.,-}].k to him. I look~.d a[ this little model out here of the City of Chanhassen.
.It':~ looks beautiCul but I don't like what I see downtown. I don'f, think I'll
like ~,ha[ you're proposing for our area. Here is a stretch of road that hasn't
&5 ,~,':~'. No~J you wa[,t to make it into sometl',ing that
pou~ib]y could f,~.~ve. I don't see no reaooning ir, the first place to lower the
i'oad. Re~:~ember when they built the at~-eet in front of the bakery? The south
~.,~-t ,~'f t. he roacl was closed fro[~ the bridge. ~e could walk safely across the
st,-~e~ ;.o pick ~.~, oui- mail. Now you t~ke your life in your hands. Trucks
c:omt:i9 by there 50 mph. ~e don't need them trucks in this rural area. Let them
come as far a~ the new housing development. They have to bring cement and Ready
Mix. Ta'r but let's close that to thru traffic for trucks. ~hen that bridge was
c].osed, they made it nice th~'u the industrial park. Up Powers Blvd.. Down
Lyi,~n. Ca~, you imagine a truck coming out of Hazeltine, slamming on the breaks
to tutn the corlleF oDly to shift 15 times to get to the top of the hill?
he comes ('lo~,~n Lyma¥, Blvd. he c~,]~ hal f~ay coast up the hill and take Po~ers
~!v.:]., J.t'-; almost ].eveled into the park. Yhy have them trucks p'rowling around
J.n ti]ic 1.~ttle ~L[blli'b,~.ll COl,lmunity? Let'o si. ese that to thru traffic for trucks.
~_~'t':.; ke{s;) th,~t a r~ice ].ittle what you'd call a suburban. ~e can have our
~,~,~lkJ. ng 'L~-ai]. 'right on tl,t~ utreet. But now the wax it i8 now, these trucks are
dal;gerou~. I d~'ovo one. I know what it's like. But let's not ruin property
that these people bougl~t this property because it's beautiful. You put a
i'et.~.inJng a.s]l i,alfway up [o tl~e house, that's not the end of it. They'll have
t.o put a 7 foot high fence there because if their grandchildren come and fall
off ~I:c wall, ~I'~o'~ going to pay for this? Now they've 9et a nice little play
].au]',. Another thing for beautification. You don't see a prettier road than
Audubon Road. ~e keep the ditche~ cut and groomed. If you ~ant to see what the
City does, just look at the end of Park Drive or Park Road. They've got signs,
cement thJ::~ high that says Chanhassen Park. Thistles growing that high. ~eeds
all over the plaue Fight now. June the 6th. 5th. ~hatever the date is and
~,c, body's done nothing. For 2 years the thistles are gro~in9 there. The blooms
ali f~].].. It',:~ that ~ay ~'ight now. That beautiful entrance sign and now you
~,a.~,i to d.tg up oui- ,',ice beautiful roads and make something that Chanhassen
goir:~ to take care of? You can't take care of a little 6 foot sign much le~s a
I mile hiohw,'ty. T really am appalled that you even come up ~ith an idea like
this. Spend *.500,000.00 to 'remodel something that's just beautiful. Let's fix
up what w~'ve got an~l save some of this money. You have to agree. ~e have the
p'rett~est street in the city.
Ida?oF ChmLel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Mai'sl',a White: Hi. I'm Marsha White. I'm not quite as tall as Willy. I live
at 8850 ~udubon Rocd. We're one of the new hou~e~ ~long the road. My husband
and I moved there from Cfman Estates. We were about 13 year residents in Chan
E~tates al~d whet, we moved we wet'c looking for f'ur-al, out of the mainstream,
gorgeous cour,[ryside and we found it o, Audlzbor, Road. Other communities are
f~.~ctn9 simil.~' :~itu~:.tior~s ar, d they're dealil,g ~¢ith them with ~n eye to
cor~servation and preservation and I have a couple srticles~ I think you probably
got these in thc: p,~cket ~.hat Oo[tg Ba'rinsky provided but I'd like to read just
parts of both of those. The first one is from the Minneapolis Star and Tribune.
Da~ed Tuesday, May 29th. Headlir, es, St. Paul Highwood Have Plans to Preserve
Rural Life 1ri the City. Tucked away if, [h~ southeast corner of St. Paul lies an
ui:expected s].ivef' of tl,e north ~¢oods. Nari-ow dir't ¢oads uind through lush
v~:.gel:at, io;~. comfor[aUle wooded homes dot the rollir, g terrain. Sidewalks, paved
54
City Cour, cil Heeting - June 4, 1990
roads and sewers are rare and all of this is less than 5 miles from the bussle
and pollution of downtown. We've had as many as 4 to 5 deer in our yard said
Anna HcWright, a 10 year resident of the area. This spring we had wild turkeys.
From more than lO years ci[y officials and residents have worked to keep the
development of the area compatible with it's natural terrain. Within the next
few weeks the development plan that would preserve the neighborhood's rural
flavor is expected to be approved by the St. Paul City Council. We just didn't
want to have anyone tear this place apart with storm sewers and asphalt said
long time resident Robert Nelson relaxing in his living room which is alongside
a full greenhouse, swimming pool and deck overlooking lush rolling hills. The
other article was published in the Chanhassen/Excelsior/Shorewood Sailor
Wednesday, April lO, 1990 in conjunction with the Earth Day 1990. Titled, Some
Cities Act to Protect Trees from the Bulldozer. When developers of Cabriole
Center on Anderson Lakes in Eden Prairie received approval for their project in
the early 1980's, they promised that they would knock down as few large trees as
possible durlng construction. The developer's agreement also required a
construction sense to protect trees outslde the immediate site from damage. The
City looked carefully at the wooded hill and noted where the trees were. But
soon after coT,structlon began, the phone at City Hall started to rlng.
Neighbors said they had seen oak after oak falllng before the bulldozers and
they feared that the area would be clearcut. The Clty plannlng department
intervened before many trees were lost and the developer's agreed to replace the
trees [hey cut down with a larger number of smaller trees. This lncldent
together with several other similar ones in Eden Prairie led the City Council to
adopt a tree preservation policy in 1986. The policy uses a sliding scale to
determine how many trees taken down during construction must be replaced. It
will. become an ordinance if it ls passed by the City Counc11 thls month.
needed some sort of incentive so that we would have more than 1ip service from
developers saying we want to save all the trees posslble said Chris Engler, Eden
Prairie Planning Director. Eden Pralrie City Council member Richard Anderson
said that he has seen a gradual increase over the years in people's
understanding of the value of trees and the desire to preserve them. As Earth
Day 1990 approaches, ordinances that seek to protect the urban forest have been
adopted in Plymouth, 8urnsville, Eagan, Apple Valley and Woodbury and are under
consideration in Eden Prairle, Chanhassen and Maple Grove. Although Eden
Prairie has had a functioning tree preservatio.n policy since 1986 and was one of
the flrst communities in the metro area to conslder such a pollcy, the Clty
only now moving to give the policy the force of law by adopting it as an
ordinance. The delay has glven the Clty and developers tlme to flnd out how to
make the policy work best for both said Stuart Fox, manager of Parks and Natural
Resources. The City has rejected developers efforts to have the pollcy focus
more on tree planning than on preservation of existing mature trees. Tree
plannlng is real important but you can't replace a 36 inch oak tree sald Enger.
You can try to replace it in klnd with smaller trees but you can't replace it
wlth a 36 inch tree. For each 24 inch tree out there we cut down today, we're
not going to live long enough to see a sapling grow to that size. You have to
realize that they don't just pop up overnight. Trees in front yards are
especially at risk during construction because building crews park vehicles and
stack heavy plles of materials on the ground compacting the roots. Even if such
a tree survives for awhlle, a thinning of the crown can be seen year by year.
Trees do a lot more in terms of our environment than we give them credlt for
sometimes. We ought to learn from them what they need. Hopefully we wlll
educate people to the understanding that we can 1lye in harmony with the
55
City Cour~c[1 Meeting Jutes -4, 1990
Hood].,:~l~d:~. Il ju~l take.-: some commitment. Thank you.
Mayor Ch,,l,~l: Thol,I, you. Itarsi-,a, ju.';[ 1, aybe for your information. I think the
City of Eden Prairie is probably copying our ordir, ance on trees. So we have
;...~kc:.r, f"'l i'ion he in ,. .
.~,,.-~. ?or ,. r'e 'he City a:~ Hell
?laruha lJI,itc-' Oood. There are lots of trees a].ong Audubon.
Councilman .~ohl~son: He don't have an ordinance.
Coul~,;~.~.uo~,3.~ binler: 14e have a tree ordinance.
?1,.'.yof CI,miol: '£'lr, :~or"r?. ~ sl~ouldn'1: have said the ordinance. Subdivision
" V."" ~, ' '~
( ~ ~-". .. O?,;iC]l LS.
Jerry ¢.]v,~y' Good ever, ing. I'm Jerry Alvey. I live at 1831 Sunridge Court
ui':~c':: .[.~: ju~';~ adjacent to Audubon. I'd like to confine my comments really to
th£. existence of the proposed trail. ~ find it a little difficult to understand
~,.:,3c, r,~f a trail which essentially ends ~t a com,,ercial farm and then dead
eri~ls ~tL the other end at TI4 5 Hith no ability to cross TH 5. It seems like it's
.:~ trail, th,it 9oc::~ f'rom ilowhere to a rather' da~gerous area. ~hile it seems like
it has been fttnded by Carver County, I realize [hat those monies come out of tax
do]Jar.3 uhich we pay not only to the City but to the County as uell and
concerried about the sper, dir~g of tax dollars for a trail which at. least to
el~.:,~ I'm t f tong term planning, Z'm not certaln hou
part. iuular :;~de s'~.rcot t~1 uould feed into a m~,J.r~ systea. ~t seen:; ].ike
r,~'.,-i',~p::¢ ,.¢~;"'r:: ?utttr~s ~.i~¢:: c,,rt before the horse to try to put smelt segments of
!.r~j.l:; ~n the c~ty Jn ~ non J. ntcg~-~ted fashlo~. ~].so on this particular one,
~¢~,;.>' b~¢ sunfun:cd on tl~?; so p~ea{;e co,rest me &f Z'~, uroli9. But ol~ the southern
¢..l~d of hudubof~, the t'ra~]. ~ppea~'s te be planl~ed for the eastern ~&de. On the
n,:.7'th:-;;';~ un,J, ~h.::~'e'.:; ~',; ox~:'tii~9 s.td¢~u,~1k o~- tr~&], next to HcG~ynn ul~1ch J.s on
the ~,;~:tc~, ,..';~de. Nov to n:~: tbs: n~jo~' function of a tra~l anyuhere, not
& I_ . .
¢:udu.~on !~t,. ju..st :;'~y~,ar::,, J.s Io provide more convenient ~nd safer
~.r;,nsportatJ. on for r, on--notor2zed veh2cles. ~e're talk!ns about -regrading and
:tir, pfovir, g tl~e roac~ ¢,ppa~ent].y because of the heavier traffZc that is ptanned and
y~t at sene point ue have the people using this tr~J. 1 are forced to cross
h~dubon exposing themse.tf to this heavier traffic so from a ptannir, g vleupoint
~ l,~v~. ~:o~e diffJ, cLt]ty ~th that. Also, Z'd l~ke yOU tO consider the potentla].
].iabJ~.ity situ~tZon.. ~f you have a trall fo~' some period of tSme, months,
y,~,~,-s, that e~npties onto TH 5 Z believe that there u~11 be some use of th&s
tr.;~Jl bL~' &f you I~ava young peopZe, 16 and under, uho come out of this
o'nto TI', 5, thJ',-c'c going to be an ~npetLtS for then to soaehou get ~cross TH
SJr~ce Jt doe~: (lea. d ~:nd there, Z think you may have a safety ~ssue ulth children
t~->'~,,,g to do corr~ething on TII 5 that perhaps they shouldn't have. Also, a couple
of ft~f'thc~' oonl~fler~3. T've got some pictures I~era of an existing tra~1 that vas
?:.',: J.~ 2 yc~rs sss at the Lake Susan HJl].s develop,,er, t and ~ uill pass these out
~,.ong Cour, cJ~. Z'.d ]Jke you to look at then and note the condltions
sp~,cJ, fJc~lly of [his tra~l. Zt seems to be characterized by a great deal of
ue~Js, mud, dirt ~nd .in fact there's cracks. ~e have one picture of ~ ueed
u~'o~.~;~,9 up Lhrough the blacktop itself so the ex~st2ng tra~l from the appearance
,CF ~t, :.~o.3:-;;-,'t ].cck 1.;kc it's used much. Zt certain~y is not kept up. Z knou
T h;;vc : you~9 d;ughtar. She's a lJ. ttle youl~g to use this type of thing but if
· ~',..~.. u,:~.::: ,i 1:~]~:. ~.].der, Z ~¢ou].dn't 1~ke her oh that type of tra1~. ~ a~so have
56
Cif. y ~.oun¢:~] F.,eeting- June 4, 1990
some pictures of the existing trail at McGlynn which seems to have a problem
rigl~t now, as Doug mentioned, with a lot of mud running off on it so without
further adieux I'd like to bring these pictures up to you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Jerry Alvey: That's the trall by McGlynn's. Here's the series of trails at
Lake Susan Hills.
Mayor Chmiel' Is there anyone else?
3err/ Alvey: The major reason I'm giving you the pictures of the Lake Susan
,~zlls Js because unless there is some method of maintaining these tralls, I
think all of the residents fear that any potential trail would be kept up in a
slmllar fashlon to the one at Lake Susan Hills.
Councilwoman Dimler: How old are those trails?
Jerry Alvey' 2 years. Perhaps a bit under. I think the pictures speak for
themself.
Gary Warren: That specific trail Mr. Mayor, is still under warranty with the
developer so repairs and these things are a part of the plan...of the
subdivision so ue haven't really taken them over for city maintenance yet.
Tr~lls. The north side of Audubon Road as you pointed out on the west slde, the
Council's gone through discussion on that earlier in this process...
Jerry Alvey: I thought there was supposed to be a bridge out there.
Gary Warrenr The railroad tracks that's south of Park Road. And you're
correct, there lsa 6 foot trail that would be constructed onto the existing.
Jerry Alvey: On the bridge?
Councilm,~l 3ohnson: Yes.
Jerry Alvey: So that people using the trall would be forced into the path of
traffLc on the bridge?
Gary Warren: Well I didn't show the detail and t can certainly do that if
that's your pleasure.
Jerry Alvey: Yeah, that's a concern.
Gary ~arren: If we have the time maybe I can best show a section here. We did
].ook at several alternatives for getting across the brldge. One which would be
very expensive was to construct a stand alone structure but basically what's
proposed at thls point is to construct an on street trail, the scale's going to
b~ .~ 11!tJe bit hard to see but basically I'll outline it. This is a series of
what's called jersey barriers.
Councilman Johnson: Could you draw it on the board easier?
57
City Coul(c]l 14,(;ct.lng -- June 4, 1990
C.~','y Warren' Uo]l T'vo got another one here 3ay. This is the trail coming ir,
,:~i~,. jt actua].ly stays on the bridge but it's separated. In looking at thc
;cec~..~.Ul'~ vj.s~. Again this is the edge of the bridge right no~. The existing
· j.ercay ba,-rier ¢bu[ments and on [he easterly side we would be constructing
~r o [ I',c~i-' jersey ~ ' r
,.,ar,-ier ,or protec(ln9 the 6 foot ~ldth and that's ~here the
(ra~l ~ould be actually on the bridge. ~hat ~e ~ould be do&n9 on the ends as ~t
~pproachac the trar~s~[ion section into the bridge aud off, ~e ~ould be doing
t~lst¢~..d and plate: b~;ams to protect both sides and bringing it off.
3~,;",.-y AJ. ua>': Gar>,, o]~c further question. The bridge is kind of narrow now.
Woul.'J thgt mean you'd be funnelir, g trafflc further?
Gary Ua,'F~'.n" The bridge is 44 feet wide and we would be shrinking it. The
;-3.'-,dwa? width would be: 36 feat in that area which we've done our checking and
calculaL.i, on:_-~ and sunh and we aren't eliminating a road lane or anything. We're
just providing a transition down to use that 6 feet of trail.
Wil].y Mo.l.r, au: You said the bridge and the pathway would be 6 foot and the rest
of the trail 8 foot?
Gary Wafter,.'. That's correct.
Willy Molnau' Well ~hat don't make sense either. You come with a 8 foot
bicycle and you're going to have to carry it across.
6.-,fy H,-.'rrer:.~ T owl,pose .fY you I~ad an 8 foot bicycle: that would be correct.
W'.'.lly Mo].r, au: Well a baby carriage with triplets in i'!., that'd be 8 feet. Boy,
tidal, sktr¢ ,.~n't v,~f'? good j.~].anning.
Cory Warren: Tho oth~;r alternative was a stand alone structure. I guess the
most cxpens£ve H~rald w&s hnndred arm some thousand dollars.
Mike. Cochrane: Well I'll make it short because I think you know how we feel over
,-r. th.~s .:-..~.de. I ,, Mike Cochrar, e and I live on 1751 Sunridge Court and I'd just
~,,¢ to reiterate a couple thingc. One is [he safety and the speed at which the
t;'ucks ars ~oving down thr: hill. The other one is just I don't understand why
~g8 wo[~l(I wdnt I.o put ill a trail when none of the residents on the street want it
purled, i00~ of [hem have said no. I just feel it's a w~ste of tax dollars to
do it. I came from Eden Prairie. Lived there 8 years. You know their trailway
sys:tem and I moved out to Char, hassen to take part in the rural setting and enjoy
J.~. In living in Eden Prairie my wife and I found out that even with all those
ti'a~ls you trill ended up with bicyclers and walkers walking down the street so
I'i:m sure Mimer purpose the trails served in tho end. Enough said.
G~yle Oc-gler: I'm Gayla Oegl~:r along witi~ my wife and my folks, Bean and Lois
Oegle~'. We are. the dairy farmers in Chanhassen at thls tlme. We 11ua just
:south oF l_yman 81vd. at Audubon Road. First a couple comments on the trail that
.i.::~ tn Lake Susan Hills now. Obviously from the pictures and just by farming the
].and .i.~, th~',t g..sn~r~.[ a'rea, ~ k~,ow it's not being used. I ti'mink it's pretty
obvious. People jog up and down CR 17. They're on the roadway. They don't use
tl~e t'r~i], s>,stc,:~. Thls .¢,:s a highly, I don't want call it a highly densely
populatcd but Lherc.'s a lot of new houses in that ar'aa and they're not uslng the
58
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
existing t'rail. Getting back to the new proposed trail, I as an agricultural
person, as a farmer have some problem with it because I have 4 fields from 2
different owners that I would have to go across thls tra11 and any tlme wlth any
equipment, especially agricultural, you're going to have some problems. Some
chance of having a problem. Mud, dirt, grass, anything falling off of any
vehlcles. Cars, pick-ups, tractors, implements, whatever and I would not like
to sec this become a problem. My other baslc questlon with thls trail, where
does it go? If it is part of this comprehensive plan of the trail system, I
think the City was re~,l plaln in thelr vote last tlme agalnst thls trail system.
It almost looks to me that we're trying to go around about putting this trail
system in by not using our own money and that way we can 3ustify the cost.
Indirectly ue all know that we pay for it one way or another and I think we
should go along ulth the wishes of the City when we voted thls trall system
down. Ny question too as far as this trail system, where does it go. It stops
when it hits Lyman Blvd.. It's almost 11kc a blg arrow pointlng south.
Obviously south is where we live. South ls where our business is. We're
farmers and ue don't have it. It's not in the plans of ourselves or in the
RJty's, we're planning on farming for the future. I don't see us, I've got
little klds and I plan on havlng them grow up here. So I see no need for a
t;"~'.il. Yho's going to use it. The people who live here obviously don't want
it. We don't feel the need for it and besides the Park and Recreation Board has
s~u thc. re s no money to maintain ~ trail. I mean they're obviously not
maintaining the trails that they're got so I think we don't really need it and
~tviously we don't want it. Thank you.
Mayor Chmlel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Tom Michel: My name is Tom Michel and I live at 8941 Audubon which would be the
last place down by Lyman on the south end. In addltion to upholding most of the
comments that were said about the tr~il, since nobody wants it why do we want to
put it in there but it does affect me somewhat and I have a couple pictures here
that I'd like to put in to show. According to the plans I have, the extra
~mount of f111 that would have to be put in would definitely not only be
~xpensive to put in but it would be just that much more detrimental to our
property. Now they put ina so called 33 foot 66 foot road but where it goes by
our property the 66 foot of road are up here but there's another ?$ feet of
embankment that encroaches on our farm down there. Now if thls is golng to be
widened further, then it can only follow that it would encroach further down on
our property. These plctures I'd 11kc to show you shows the steepness of the
hills and how much fill would have to be put in there and also it shows on this
that there's suppose to be a temporary easement of 40 feet in addltion to that
that they want to take. I don't propose to give up an addition 40 feet over
what they already have because most of the trees that we have that shleld us
frown the ro~d ~re going to be involved in this project at a little farther down.
Now Z don't know if that can be avoided or not but I'll just give you, I'd like
to show you these pictures. That's the part down where it crosses Bluff Creek
but thls is the part where it comes off the road and those are trees there. You
c~n see what that additional stuff would do. I don't think it would be as
severe as what Mr. Barinsky would have for a problem but it certainly would be
one for us too.
Ha¥'!jn F:d.',~a,'d~: fly ,~a,,.~ !.:: ]'ia'r']j.;'~ Edward8 and Z !ire at 8950 ~xdubon Road.
thai there 1~. [~ot a :m~ed for this trail and that Lh~ people Lhat do u:~e that
r~ad, b](:yelisL..;, fc.~' ,:xam,,j;lu czs LI',e non-vehicular traffic, uae it, they're on
the roacl surfac:e an~l tl~ey uo~lld be or, the road surface if a tra11 were there I'm
,~].~7~o cormvr![~ced. Zf "h,~.t tr,;1L dld :serve ~o lncre~se foo~ Lraffic down to Lymarm
F:lvc',., Z uou].d ~:uggesr. ~hat !t ~,~ouJ. d be rather i,'ra~poncible to give them no
fr(t.i.1, opt.Ton c:n t ye~;1; glvd._ Ny hence face~ both A~,d~bo[m ;r,d Lyman. Audubon',s
~:r,,.:.. ,i,~U fhe .,'e,f2:: zs p'r .f>' ~lo~ e.~pec:$alE>' ~r~cks ~h$ch have
:[~fE/:-:L~]'>' i~,~k].r.'5 J.E wi:. fh.2 h~J.i any~aT. Conve~'seiy~ every yo~l'~ that has
e[',:'.',.'..i' a [..7,1. ~:~oLo~c:ycle or a hot a~t. omob~lo, feels compelled to lry out it's top
';:~,:.~r;d -do;T,9 c[ou;:l l. hf.,¢ L.ym~n Dlvd~ cmb~nkmerit.. Tl~ere'~ ~ h~ll ~ one end and
t. hes-¢,'s ~ hill aL ~aol. h¢r. It.'~: ~ perf~:cL oppo~'tunity every evening. Every
~vd ~ ~¢oLt2d ~hink ~o~d be it'respot~81b}e for the ~e~L being of path ~ers to
hz',:s :;. Lr.s.,.~ ~r,d~c'Ln.~ ~hem to 9e~ do~n to Lyman B~vd._ Thdt'~ ~L. Th~nk you.
l'iayer Chm]::,l~ Thank yOU. Anyone
.,,,=,..c I is l~ave -~tockd~le.. I own probably ti'me only piece of property
tfmat'~ o~ Lhe nor'th section that's belng affected by the sidewalk. Or at least
~:~,:.~": ~"::p.;~'~? i? occ:L~pied. Originally when Z heard that thi~ wae going in Z
Figur.~d i,t ~a.; .::omc.~haL ir, evit~b~e that it ~a~ going to be happening and Z
" "h''~ 'he .
c::'~::,Ui,,:~ .... ~,. ~ ~e W~;3 ~ dc.[virmg force of development taking place I gues~ I'm
not :s:.~t'].T~ ;~here that devc}op~nen[ i~ coming from. Zt ~eem8 like it'~ being, the
,.~'iv.i. rmo fo,'cn "c: ~:8[~a!..l>, :7:o~lme free money out there. Or a1~eged].7 free nmor~ey
a'~d ~'.:, ~.;ol~d~i'i~m~ J f that allegedly free money comes and goes and will be there
,..,~r..tn ;n thc ful. ui'..q when ~1. ~oeme I:o be more ~n time u~tl~ actual development
t]~l. elect. ~hese Jmp'rc, vements. ~eide from the road ic::sue, it seem~ ~.tke the
,. · I . ~ I ·
~"' z ,'~ ~ & !. ~.' ~',~.~ :., r',~
' ' c,.ez:Jred l;7 anyo~e on the south end and ~'m not s~re i~
.i.i. ~ I t
· .::.:.:,".:.: anyone that wants it on the north end. ~ wasn't aware taa. things would
I'~ ,.- ~ - ~ ~
~.. ~L~r~r~el. Jng a,. ch.2 bridge ,~d I'm a I~tt~e concerned abo~t the safety issue ae
:..'~:k~c.t~..:;, ~ndiv~duallzed vehLc].es coming up to a nar'row and at the came t~me
tl',:~y'r.2 eom~g to ~he hart'ow of the bridge. Pedestrian is narrowing towards
that :::a~c- area. It seems }$ke you're creating a potential ~afety hazard at that
~:'::c.',~,i-", ~',,a k, onc~er'in9 if in fact the roads have to go througl~, it might make
:::j~;~.::e ~o hold off the trai1way :~;ystem until a separate bridge can be f~nd~d ~o
.... ' "t~ ' '
:~l,)).o7 ~hA'li.e]' Gary, i',,laybe you can addres~ that. It seems that ':he impression
'' '..!:'-14all:~.,a', ~s; 9oing to be Ol'l the b'~'id,,,e itself.
s.I- I,
;,,~>'orC i''-~'
~ll~i .... ~ut i'L t-~ill be on the exterlo¥' of it rather than on the driven
.
,:..,,, ~la~'r,_.i'~ ]I~-'. H,iyor, iD'iai was the graphic that we had earlier. The t'rail
u:i1.1_ !.~ oq the brid~
~,,. a.tthouoh it ~111 be on a 6 foot portion of the bridge that
',:'l "..- pt'c, teoted by a jet.soy barrier at~d plate beam guard'm'ail
r3,.;ue Stockdal~.: And the 9uardr'ail...2 feet wide...?
6O
City Council Meeting - Juno
~a~-y Warren: It would have your standard twisted end treatment that you would
see on the inter~tate to protect the bridge abutments and things of that nature
2=0 it would actually be twlsted off 1nrc the boulevard area. We have a 10 foot
boolev.~rd b~sically behind the back curb and the existing proposed trail so
there's a txansition area used to taper in so you don't have an abrupt change of
e~ther the road or the trail. Harald, i~ it 15 to 1 type tapers? So which i~
consistent with HnOot. The trail would be on the existing bridge but protected.
Councilman Workman: Gary, I thought we agreed to an added structure there at a
co~t of about $50,000.00 or something.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, that's the jersey barrier he's talking about.
O~-? Warren' Yeah, the original feasibility study we had $52,000.00 cost
estimate and that was for extending the bridge abutments and for extending the
piers on the brldge to add an additional say 10 feet onto the brldge. That was
afl earlier option ~e had looked at. Then based on the cost concerns and such,
~e ~ent and looked at other options. One whlch was a separate structure,
totally separate which was $110,000.00 option and then this option which was the
lea.st expensive was the $20,000.00 option using the existing brldge.
Councilman Johnson: What's the width from the jersey barrier to the center line
oF the bridge? In other words, the travel width that the vehicles will have.
Ga~-y War~'en: 14 foot lanes which is your standard. You're actually carrying a
12 Foot lane south of there. South of Heron Drlve, the exlsting road ls two 12
foot lanes.
Dzv¢ Stockd~le: It's 28 foot from jersey to jersey?
Councilman Johnson: No because one side's going to be even wider.
G~ry Warren: 38 foot clear. 6 foot trail and 38 foot.
Dave Stockdalo: Are those just be temporary when they're built?
Gary Warren: The jersey barriers?
Dave Stockdale: ...
Gary Warren: Jersey barriers, for those who aren't famlliar is the typical you
see on TH S here used extensively here in the construction. They're very
successful. In fact they are used a lot now, being poured as actual median
separaters in a lot of the more dense areas.
Dave Stockdale: Are you talking about...
Ssf-y Warren: This one would actually be, except for the special end treatments,
thls one would be actually assembled, precast units that would then be open...
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Douo 3a;"in:-~ky' I 9uen;'-J ,¢~. feel kind of as a g'r'oup of residents on ALtdubon South
ti.at pzohnl~.l.y ~;hal starLod out to be a~ additional renovation of industrial
urbai, section and then ultimately was to include a bituminous overlay to get
..',~.t(.,'t,.b~,~'~ P, oac; J.n belier condition, ended up being developed into a much more
Snvo]ved p'rocess .i.l~c]udJn9 the trail as well as disruption of some of the
,.'.r'op-::,-l.? ..'~i',~] :;.-~g~,J. fic~;,( or',v.Lronmental impact. We would only ask for
:zon~:idaration that maybe the extent of this thing is wenl ..z little further
~,:h,::.t ~-,.'a:-:-: i:;-o~;'.blF n.~coo:;.:.',i'? ~;o thank you.
¢.oLtr~cJ.l,,:~an 5ohn.,]ol~' Doug? Originally you said you wanted to ta].k more
.-.,,-, .:/:-.' r:,,.-.1 ~y .~
· , . .. .... eLL[ yOL.'.'r pr(~perLy and you never really got to that
,?,.:,~tg ,Sar~'~,sky: Okay. ,lay I guess the bJ. ggest concern we have is that we really
· '~;:.::--_--ti.u;: t f..Z.~ ul~.r~le ~ root ~OWef'~l'lg because of some of the other comments that
;,~,3i-';7 made tof~J.¢ht because it does have significant environmental impact along
i.?,~; L(,~, ::..f ti:,2 hJl~ ar,.d the l~'g,~ trees that are there. Gary ar, d Z had met a
~ .. I ~ .b
,..C:Lt~,:~-. ~imCS a~;d wont thi-ough a couple of these options and just anyway we go
,;cowl .lt, he:re s no way that wc can save the large trees at the top of the hill
.Cf Zr, fact. we're going to lower' the h.ill 6 feet. We i'eally question that the
:~,r,oe'J .l.].mt~ ;s too I,igh l~ow and we wonder if a ,I5 mph speed limit will even be
a¢;~i-'oprJ, ate out there but we don't seem to have control o~er that. I also had
..... ~ ..... >' ou ~.. going Lo control tho speed limit out there and who
ua~i:::; I.e. There seemed to be a lot of discussion about who's in charge of that
.';,,c,n ,t~ough j_t: is considered a city street. So I appreciate what Gary's saying
~t~oLtt Iht; line of sJ. ght but as Hr. Molnau mentioned, Lhis has been an issue for
.:. .'.,,.~, ..... '.,~n..¢" time_ so why do we feel all of a sudden it's become an issue that it
ha~: to bo dea].t with. So if J.t's decided that by legal representative vote that
· .;~,:: ..... ;]1 ha.~ ,_c b,3 lowered, I Iiavo all of my trees are within my right-of-way
~;ith 'Lh~. ~xuoption of one that's technically right on the line but unfortunately
'~ '' ... r~), ;,JilL:-: :.0 11~:3 '~,
.~., '~ ... , " ' ~ o¢ that right--of-way to take the crest of thct hill
=,.:-~, ..... ¢; pf'obab~F going [o ca,se 8 ~eg~t&ve ~mpact on ~ b~l'~oh o¢ b~g trees and
1. h~, odds arcs pretty good %h2~ they're ~ going to have to be replaced or ~
J,~r,ch of them ~&~. That ?'early bothers me after dr&vYng around the ~ast couple
(Jays bec,&u~;~e Zt.'.~ p'rettF e~sF (o see even ~arge trees of 20 foot hYgh that h&~e
uue,~ r,3p~anted~er'e' ' recently because they'f'e a~ ~e~nZ~9 Lod~y. Z suspec(
., =.,... r:": ]o~ng ,.g h~ge to bre '¢ep~aged. Z not~ced several p~aOeS going to and
FTom woi'k iJ~ the different suburbs this morning, 20 foot trees: have been
out ~n th~ open countr)' wl~ere ue ~re, ~f that's uh~t ue end up ~'ep~cJng some of
~:J~:'::~;. bJ~ ;'~-og-' ~-~Lth, u;e get ~ 40 mph u~nd next ye~' ~nd tho trees are ~ goLng
~o ~.:: l~y~ng and this ui~ be my pi-ob~em because the Ci[y ~ out of it at that
,.:.::i;:?. ~'~..'t, answcre(J your q~ost~on. Th~t'o ~f, ~his poLnt the best ue c~n do.
Tk· I-
~,~,'~ ~'CL~.
!1,'; yo~' F.:!~r,~ ] ~] ' ¢.,r~yona
Da,..'<. Stockdnlc' 3ust one more thing. I suppose it's too simplistic to think
i:l,~.,t anx of Lhi~: s;ic!ewalk funding could be used to blacktop the City streets
t hat are
~'~ 'm~ >m 0 ~m ChmJel' Thank you, no. Okay, army discussior,?
62
Council Meeting - June 4 1990
Don Ashuorth: Tax increment dollars can be used in the area from which they
u.crc generated. I think some of the gravel streets you're talking about are not
ui'Lhin that area a~,d therefore can't be used.
Oary Warren: Just a point of clarification so that it's clear in everybody's
~,J. nd. The current road in the hill area that we've been discussing here
invo].ve~ about a 700 foot stretch of the roadway where we would start from
~atching exlstlng road to the worse case where there's 6 feet of lowering that
would be necessary. The current sight distance out there is less than 35 mph.
It's almost 30 mph is actually the sight dlstance you have. In other words, a
vehicle traveling 30 mph down the roadway would have enough stop reaction time
to be able to stop...
Rzcident: What's the posted speed limit?
Gary Warren: The posted speed limit is 55 mph. That I believe was a carry over
frcm when it was a county road. Nobody disagrees that that is not acceptable.
The design that we have in the plans right now is for a 45 mph design speed
recognizing the status of the roadway I guess in the City's transportation
system. Thls is based on some of the transportation study work that we're
currer:tly doing on this Eastern Carver County Transportation plan which I guess
nobody likes to have a busy road in front of thelr homes perhaps but thls road
is expected to have or continue wlth increasing use as things like TH 212 and
other road inlprovements in the clty does develop in this area. So we have based
the design conservatively to rate though at a 45 mph speed which has dictated
thi~ ~ foot cut 1nrc the 700 foot section. The rest of the road section we are
nlesting the existing profile within 4 inches whlch is the depth of our overlay
so that's as close as you can get.
Mayor Chm].el: Discussion.
Cayle Deg].er: I thought that you just mentioned that you're projecting a lot of
traffic for that highway and I thought Paul in the previous discussion of PMT
was saylng that there wasn't going to be as much traffic.
Paul Krauss: If we could clarify that. What the study is telling us is that
the trafflc coming out of Park Drive is going to turn south in the future to get
to TH 212 so the component of ~udubon north of there, where the trucks normally
today go up to TH 5 is golng to see a decrease in traffic when TH 212 opens.
The area south is probably going to see an increase or at least that's what the
Transpoi-tation Model is saying.
Gaylc Degler: Where are they going to go when they hit TH 2127
Paul Krauss: You're going to enter onto TH 212 at CR 17.
Gayle Degler: Yeah and then go east?
Paul Krauss: Yes.
Gayle Degler: And they would go out of their way to head east compared to now
9oing to TH 5 and heading east?
63
June 4, 1990
Paul l(raus:::' Zec:aus,s Tl.I 5 ~o.i. ll, even when it's redone will operate at
o[gnificar~tly near 'it's capacity ~.Jith a series of stop lights. TH 212 is a
fre,~:.ua>,'. It's :-~;I. ill 9oi'~g Lo be quiukef' to get into town on TIt 212.
~,,x,-.- i' ;:~ no,. ;~ trucker :-';u I don',, kno~ where most of this traffic is
c:o~ll~,~9 fr'om or ul'~,~,re it's going. I car, und¢:rsf, and .where people traffic wJ. ll but.
I'r:; no[ :';u','..'; how t',-ucks U.3LIgll7 I.,~;(; th~': shortest distance depending upon where
!.'ney':,-:-., g-',)ing uf course.
,,, ..~ : ,,a~.; He's talkin~j about neu TH 212.
..:.,~>'le _.. lcF' ~. k;,o~o. T under'stand Thank you.
~avo St~.~ukd~lc: 'Jhorc's tibet trail system, supposed to start...
Cou;;ci]e,,.~], 2ol~:~son: He'rc. going to get into discussiol~ here. I think part of
m'~ ,.d'.~:cu~_:.~...icn's coing to fait< about that and the trail system.
Mayor Chmie].: 6o aha;ad.
Councilman Johnson: I'm a litt].e bit out of order but point 4 on the petition
of '.-.h~-'. !,e.l:toF fl-c~ tho residents talks about taxpayers voting do~n spending tax
',"avenues for construction of sidewalks and trails. That's not quite accurate
,-'.~.r,,_" f;'~(.n i:hefe t;as some talk about taxpayers votil~g dowg the trail system.
referendum on how to ftnance the trail system was voted down. The t'~-ai], system
~.~a:; i;~t vets:', doHn poi- se but the taxpayer3 ~gid they don't want to pay for the
tFa.~ systen by increasing taxes. But the tFa2~ system ~as never voted doHr, as
,; .;:y~ta~,. ~t ~.~as never- even brought up for a vote as a system per se. There
~ds ~ F.f'opou~:d [re.il s>'sto~ and there's a concept for a trail system. The
L:;:~.]o J.n this .:ti'e~ as faf as Z've heard ~t's concept, connects over to
cventuaZZ7 to C,,~uka l-!Zgh SchooZ c:ompZex and 3r. H2gh SchooZ complex through
tyro,ti: ~vd. and ~ few ethos tra~s that ~rc Jn the future. ~t th~s point Z
uou.u l i to th~ a~--ea , eserved from here on do~n for trails but I don't see
th:: k'~c~,:l i.o ,~ctually install the trails until we get the Lym~n trails a~so
planned as part of the Lymar, trails that it connects to construct this ~hich
t,)(,L,I~! bo .3. ~ays in the future because there's no financing for ti'ail systems
oth;.-:~- than the funds ~e get from ne~ houses for financing trail systems. But
tl,a~,';':; b~J~n 20 or 30 different definitions I've heard over the last couple
y(~,;'r':'; on uh~t that ]'efe)'endum vas about. It seems to change to fit the needs.
~f'.': L-;¢.!]s c,n the HcG]y)',n side or tl)e ~est side is ~hat I see as your' industrial
trai!~, uhei-c tt~c change in the ~aF ifdustry runs nowadays, people are encouraged
i.-- ;:t ;,~ an,'J ~:a].k to excrc.lse and whatever. You go into a lot of industrial
,--~..~
,:,,~, ,,.... al. ,unc:h and you see people ~alking. Joggin9. Running. We put locker
,-ooi~)~. ~n~i(]~¢ cf buslness~s so people can change their clothes. Go jog at lunch.
Co,:~e hack and take a sho~er and go back to ~ork. It's part of industry no~adays
i:. t,:~ 2;'ovid~'. ~l')ase faciJ..tties and these people need someplace to do tl~is. So
i';~ a proponent of putting trails ~ithin industrial parks so that the people are
:'~o~: out ;'ufmn~n9. Lake Oi-ive West already has people everyday at lunch out
~,'J9;.~i)~9 and ~a]l;ing in the stf'eets. This is also ~here you have truck traffic
~.:n.:.~ s~1s and joggers I contend do not mix real ~etl. They don't hurt the
t)--ttcks r,)uch. Armd so that's my impression of ~hat the trails that are around
~icGl>.'nn t,J.l].l be for iS for' I:he industrial folks for moving around from ~oGlynn's
al ].uncl~tir, me and taking their nature ~,]alks of' ~hatever they do. The trail.
64
-Cit>' Council Meeting -- June 4, 1990
the east side will be for the residents of Lake Susan Hills as that continues to
develop and for them to get up to Park Drlve, then cut through the industrial
tra~l~: to get to Lake Ann. I'm not too wlld about the trail comlng from
Prince's place back to Park Drive. I don't know if there will ever be a lot of
· traffic on that slde. The east slde from Park Orlve up to TH 5. I'm not too
~:L~r~ about that trail segment at this time either. PMT seems to own most of
that and they can access out to Park Drlve. And Prince's, well I'm not sure
what's going to happen, how many joggers come out of there. New trails. New
tralls are bullt such as the tra11 on Kerber Blvd., which is a new trail that
was built about 2-3 years ago. When they're first built nobody uses them. As
p~op]e get to know they're there, they start getting used. You can go out on
K~.~rbar Slvd_ r,o~. In the evening I don't think I have, except for during
rainstorms and thunder storms. During nlce weather, I don't think I've drlven
K~r5cr Blvd. wh~re somebody hasn't been using the trails along Kerber Blvd. and
sometimes quite a few people. It's now a well used tralls and eventually the
trails around here will probably be looklng the same. The trails that we had
the pictures of, you'll probably see some people on them as more house~ bulld.
Ae people get some grass in theirs. It's kind of a pain.when everybody's yard
15 out of mud moved down to the trall system but as Lake Susan Hills West,
whatever that subdivision is, builds those trails will be more seen. My baslc,
I'd also 11ks to know why or maybe refresh my memory. If we dld talk about thls
sight distance problem when we allowed Rod Grams to build this subdivision. I
mean it was about ~ years ago we approved this subdivision for Rod Grams to put
this s:treet in and now we're saying we don't have proper sight distance to his
street and we have to drop the road 6 feet so the people pulling out from
subdivision are safe. Is that the interpretation I'm getting? Am I right there
or am Z catchlng something wrong?
Gary Warrerl: That's part of the sight distance problem is the street there but
it's al. so if somebody happens to be, a bicycle person for example out in the
road and you're coming over the hill and your chance to recognize that person
also is a factor in that calculation. I believe we dld address the Rod Grams
connection at the time, at least I vaguely recall that we talked about it.
Councilman Johnson: That's why it's pushed down the hill.
Sa~/ ~arren: ~e did push it as far as we could, that's correct.
CoLtncilman Johnson: I can see what you mean there. I drove that. Geez, in the
].met ¢:ouple days I've probably driven it 6 times looking at it and I'm driving
it in a van where I'm nice and tall. Then I drove it once in my Horizon and
there's a whole lot of difference in what you can see over that hill when you're
di'lving something tall and something short so I can see the slght dlstance
--. )
;~,'ob~en,~. I've seen a lot of people on bicycles on that road. It's not real
well used. It's not used as much as CR 17 and Lyman has a lot of weekend, the
gu7~ ~ith their $100.00 biking suits and their Zittle helmets and kind of the
road bicyclers. That's basically where I'm slttlng on the trails and stuff.
~'d like to see the areas reserved because I think this is going to be a good
part of the trail system in the future but I don't see the asphalt golng in thls
year from I.laron Drive south and I'm not too sure about Park Drive north. I'm
no~ convinced on that section.
Mayor Chmicl: Good. Thank you Jay. Bill?
· ..,,,... .... fl,a,~n ,~.o>"' 0ks>'. We'll give them the one two punch on t'~-ails here .lay
{I.z, ev~- gal !.:.~ ].11. ~.~] bJ.~s ~nd piece:s, if ~t gets built at a11. The trail plan Has
s,-..'.. ;.,k ;.o ~:,:n~,e(-~ th.s l)ai-k.~, tt~e school:~ ,:[~(J th~} business centel's and give
:~o~,,-'L.c.:~?' ~;r: :lI.:~,'nat~ue to 9ettj.~g J.n a c~r. 0n the one hand a~: ~ ~as taking
r, otcc: Hhen you u~'.re making you~' pre~:~i~tat~ons you said gosh, the t¥'affic speed's
~'~'L,~)' F,~S~ ,.ii'~H St'::~ list ~';2ry s~fe. 0n the o~l~er hand you'~'e telling me ~ don't
:,:~r=t ~ ~:F,:}.J].. bJ~:~].~, ~ doil't know ho~ you'~'~e going to make $t safe. ~e do h~ve
.~ ~-; ,:,b].~.m u~t~'~ ~aintaining t'ra~!s, lde're st~11 trying to figure that out. The
on~ ~;n ~I~; be~- ~1'.~d. whlch Ls about 2 years old ~hLci~ ~ use just about everyday,
~.::~ pret~>' u:~.1] n~ai. nt~,{n~d ~.nd it gets a lot of use. ~f ,e don't build these
· ~J.i~5,::;:. ~.~he:~ ~;~. I.,.,~..", *h~,. ch,ante to LiSa t~v,, ~nc:Fellle~t ~oney, we'~'e not go~n9 to
"~tild:.. t. ha,;~. So He c:,}n ha~'~ ,"., d!ffei-ence of open,on about this. ] ~uspect that
.-~ ~2oo~ m~>' peoplt: th~.t live aZong ~ ~raZ1 are goLng to fLnd ~ Zot of reasons
Fo~' ~.~,y thc:>, don'~ ~.~nt J.t ~n the&r yard. ] th$nk ~e're goSng to be a poorer
(.:o~m,.~nj. ty fa~- not having it Ln my opLnion. Z think Ln this, a lot of ~hat you
as:~oc:i~L~ ~:'1h th~.': t-';~.~J.s in ~e~-r:~s of ~mpact on you'r' property ~ going to happen
~:~.f. hoL~.t tl:e ti'.~Jl tller,'s to.s~ Yolk're st&11 go&rig to i~a,~a the 1-etaLning
,~.,..~; I: tt)ac~ from ~he ;~oad. You're still going to
].:'.;s'. sfer, e o'F th-as:¢ t;'._ee:: Ar'~d luAyb:7, t.~.'} j,zot shouldn't buZtd the ro~d.
~D~'~ t ~'.~,A~tt., Ir3 ~O~.(J, '~OLt don t ~,}nt the ro~d. You dor~-( Hant the tr~&l. ~hat
~ I I
,.~,¢., n~;:ck.. L~:t's ~.~k,a tho If~Ol'lroy ~r,d not bu.~ld
,-.;.~ ...... > ~]~.t ,~11 >'ow have to do is take the tl-ucks off there and then we've
gc,i..t t
the t~-ucks off
~,,J.] Molnau. M'~'. M,}>'o~, I'd lika to ~sk a qur:stion yet. Bill., you just said
:.%.x' t;"ail~: ,.,~-¢3 /:~,~.inl. ained on Kerber Blvd.. You said they"r'e p'r'etty well
n;."-ini:,.~.ir~ed, t~ho ma.intg, ir~.,.-', them? Th~. City?
CoL,,nci].~ar, ~,oyt: As far as I know, what maintenance occurs the City does.
b,a.]_ly Moll'~a,: ~(,,., I:l:~.r~ th,~ ~,airlten~rlce of that trail is more important than
snowplo~Jrl9 Oil AudLtL. on Road or, SLtnday?
C~);.:;:,.:.J;r.,,~:, 3oyt' That's an ,~wl~ully good qttestion.
;dill>' ~,Oll,aLt' Z. dor,:t have snow f'emoval on Sunday because the City don't want
to p,-~? the. over'time and now you're maintaining a trail that you say is used
;m:.'avJ. l.>': That. ,-oa:J o~[ +here i::: used ~ lot heavier' thor, that t~'a.il 0n Sund~ty
+',.. :~l,o].e ~-,cighborhoo.J usually 9oes to chuf'ch if we can 9,.ct out. Too bad we
'ivJ.~g the~-e but he moved away That road was maintained.
~'?. ~-;;;)':; rir~:men f~ve to get out and we had good snowplowing.
Coi:;~ci.].~na'n go~'t: Fx~:use me ~. s:econd al~'ight? I'd sui-e like. to hear from Gary
,:t,o~zt t l~e ~;nou ~-,'_':~o'..:;~]. ~ want you to know tha[ the tf-ail on Kerber is not
::.lc.~.l.~d in 't. ht~ ul.inte:rtJ.~m8 ,{:~ nluL:h as I'd like it (o be but the Sunday snow
~'emov;~l is ¢.~n inte~'esti~,~} question. I sure w~sn't aware that we weren't plowing
66
City Council Nesting .- June 4, 1990
Gary Uarren: That's news to me also. We do go out whenever there is snow that
needs to be pi. owed.
Willy Holnau: Whet, there's no snow then they're driving the blade on the ground
ar:J tt;e fire flies up. Wait until they get to...Sundays.
car>' Warr~.n: Public works staff basically have their assignments· The areas·
H'.ke ~o~].~r I believe actually and as I'm sure everybody's aware, our public
uorl:s garage i~ right on Audubon Road here so the crews that leave to head to
!.h~ir destinations, they all have their specific areas of responsibility.
T~ai]s are not even plowed the day of a storm if at all and if we do plow them,
it is only after basically all of the roadways and such are cleared and the
cul-de-sacs are cleared. We do not plow all of the trails as I think everybody
is au,~re. But ue do plow on Sundays if the weather dictates. We typically are
out in the morning trying to beat the traffic to do the snow removal and the
arno's assigned specifically to an individual who does not stop until he
complete his area and every road is plowed.
;i..~rlin Edwards: If I could comment on the line of sight issue on that crest of
the hi11. If you consider the layout of that land, if you were golng up north
or, Audubon Drive and you had just completed doing a 90 degree turn, no matter
where you came from, it's a rather steep incllne even if it was cut down 6 feet
~T,~ I would argue that you're probably not going to build up that much speed
getting to that crest anyway. And comlng back down the hill, you've got to stop
~t the bottom of the hil1 anyway and I would argue likewise that you shouldn't
be golng that rapidly golng over the hills. And this ls particularly true in
the wintertime with either ice or sand which ls mostly what we have in the
winter 'there co I would argue the 11ne of sight lssue at a safe operating speed
perhaps ~S or SE...and I argue might be unnecessary if you consider what safe
operating speed should be for that.
Councilman Johnson: But what are they? I've been passed at the crest of that
h11~.
Marlin Edwards: They're posted. I mean people drive by whatever is posted is
].egz! ~nd that may be the simple solution to the problem.
Mayor £hmiel: Okay, Ursula.
Courmciluoman Dimler: I guess first I'd like to say that the comprehensive trail
plan is being ret, ised and I don't necessarily think that the one that is in
concrete and I thlnk we are amendable to maklng some changes and as far as I'm
concerned, if you voted against the funding for the trails, you voted against
the tralls. So the statements that were made earller I don't agree with. I
thought too rather than lowering the road, if we could reduce the speed limit,
if that would be wlthln our jurisdiction. Can we do that?
Gary ~:arren: The road is a city road. It is in our jurisdiction to petition
the Commission of Transportation to do a speed study to evaluate and determine
ha, tl',~ actual speed should be for the roadway As I think Council is probably
aware from some of our previous speed studles, the way that that is done ls the
oapartmant of Transportation actually conducts radar studies of how the road is
being used and sometimes, unless there ls specific geometric concerns which thls
i.~,~>' !'.:~: .c~;.~;-. c.f tha~:, the actLtal speed that thc use~'z are going at ~ill actually
,.~f~:t.~t:~: ~,hai ~[;c :~pecd limit ~.~il! be, So in a cache where a road is being used
.'~t :, hishei" .~p~s.,~cl, '.~,o~,~s't. lmes you can s,~e speed limits being increased but that
..o~nc:llwo~a~ ,nin~].e.i,.: Okay. I ye driven that ~'oad a lot too and I find that the
~;]..,~';i~ I s~, ti,e ,~o~-o time for ~'eiction I have and I think that's generally true
~ith evei-ybody. I do that in ~y o~n neighborhood because anything can pop
~Jo~l,., l[k~: Lo see it reduced to maybe even ~ if ~e c~n because I really
don't like to see those tree~ destroyed. Hy last comment i~, I g~es~ after
tl',~?: ccnv.zrs,~tior;, ~ h~vo forgotten the original purpose of upgrading the road.
Wottld you rev].e~ that for L~s Gary?
g,-~:'¢' l~a',"r,:-:,- TI,...; , ,:)ad .-.;l~o~s on Lbo City's -5 ye~r Stat~; ~id Capital Improvement
p~'r_..~'am ;;.;:~ one Lhat the Council had approved for upgrading here to recognize
';:":'-.: i~,..-:~.'...c..'~cd l,ot..,.':nti~! usc: hei-e with the increased traffic as ~ell as the f~ct
lhat :!'.:. :':-.,ad ."..;..'-;elf, as I think many of the neighbors here have attested, has
-;¢:' ~:o~i:,'_,..;, ,~,':$ ,,;I,orc we've got some subgrad,'.: problems and ,we've got bituminous
I-, ]. ~ ;:..'.,. r. r ~ n ~ ..
.$o,~.',.~:t]uo;:~an OJ.~r~le.r: Okay, I unde'rstand that. Are 'ce talking about rezonin9
.-':.;',;. n lb,.'.~ ,~n.'.. is th,~t on,e of the reasons why we'r'e doing ~his?
Ha?o's-' Chn~[a].' Rezo;',Zng from?
23,.."~ !;?,;~..:,~-;- ~,'~.zor~in9 no. The comp'rehensive plan alr~endment that's being
dJ:.;cu..';~:;.,d ~tt tho P~anntng Com~¢~ss~on does ant~c2pate the expansion of the
!in':-~est of r~ucl~b~ Road. No~ that's something ~ha[ has been 9oif~g on
~n~k~p¢~nd,';nL cf t!',i,; road project but that area is in the proposed MUSA expansion
,S.:')d.:i,_-."].~,'.>..,ic, n ~,].~,l~:'r: So you're looking at residential expansion?
PAL;.]. !'-'.;-a~tC;~;- NO. Residential on the east side of ~udubon. Right now the area
t.~:-;~!', of ¢:udubon i.3 sho'cn ~.-o office Zndustr]al and that's something the Planning
..s,:;ml.,,:;.:;s..Son':; 9c,~r,.; to b,".. talking about J.n the next couple weeks.
,.ci~;~c:...~o~',,~an Di~;~.l. er: ,:yen south of the road?
P.lul t<t';:.us:~' Ye.'-;.
John.son: Is that the ~edr, esda~ night meeting? This ~ednesday night?
P:.:...~! ':.(~ ,',,.. ::" : ?.,:,. TI~,'~t',..: the me¢~ting on the 20th is for south of TH 5.
,.,,.,;'>' t~3~-~'c:, This ~ednesday's north.
I..l-.':..'.>, Ho.tnaLt: In case this happens now that the construction starts and
avo;-'>',thin~, ul~en ds the Zandowners get informed that this is happening? Z have.
^"lek .-s~al~din~ .~n my wl',eatfield and my neighbor tells mc that s going to be
:'-:.~,'t of th,? ne~ 'road eye,em. ~ell you're talking tonight about letting bids for
..'.,.';,f~:sr.,~ucti,.'.-..l~ .~.~,d you t,¢.tverl:t purchased property yet and you're going to put the
':'~oi'.--:e.::. ,.;::.hind [h~: caf't at this time? Usually you plan ahead and see how much
68
Meeting --June 4, 1990
money you're going to need to build this road?
,",¢yor Chmlci: Yeah. Prior to acquessing properties from the property owners,
you have to have a particular project. Whether it be this or something eIse.
Ar:.:: that's determined first and then afterwards the contacts are made for the
.~cquiring of the properties. Z would assume that's the way you normaiiy do it.
Zs thi~ right Gary?
6~ry ~arren: That's correct. There's been a lot of variability here obviously
!n the plans ~nd the side slope impacts. We've shrunk shoulders. We've added
retaJning walls. We haven't initiated the easement acquisition process until we
h~ve .% f~x on just what we need to acqulre and that would be the'next step here
that would commence ~long wlth the advertising for bids.
~I,-.>,o¢ chmiel: Does that answer your question?
Willy Molnau' Well partly.
Gary Warren: We would also be communicating to the residents once we do award a
p;'o~:ct, their comes back to the Council for award of the bids. Then would be
cam~¢lUn~cating a construction schedule to the residents specifically. If that
addresses the rest of it.
Mayor Chmiel: We went through that process notifying all adjacent property
Ol.~ners right in town on one of the roads that we just approved. I thought that
¢~-y did a pretty good ~ob of indicating what was going to be done when. What
segments wore going to be worked on and so on. $o yes there would be some
communication to let you know exactly what's taking place, if it takes place.
~illy Nolnau: When you talk about lowering the road for sight problems, if you
go south of Lyman on Audubon next to the Dean Oegler farm, you come up the hi11.
A!1 of a sudden there's a drop in the road. I mean it's 3ust 11ko your teeth
fell out of your mouth when you hlt the first bump and then you go level unt11
past ~ break in the hill and all of a sudden kaboop you hit another. And when
you come elther way, up to that point you can't see what's up on the level untll
it's right up to you so whoever designed that project I think is rather sllly.
I 2ean if that's what you talk about lowerlng a road for slght, you've got to
h.~ve a steep bump in the road. Can't that be a smooth grade?
Councilman Johnson: Good point. We've got a lot of roads like that in this
city that need some fixing.
~illy Nolnau: No, no, this is the new road I'm talklng about.
Cotincil~omar, Oimler: That's because of poor soils.
Gary Warren: Which one is he talklng about?
Ui)!>' Molnau: Ursula, you'd better take another drink there.
councilwoman Dimler: It doesn't have the right stuff in there Willy.
Mayor Chmiel: Tom?
C:;." C::-iir..-;-'.] !!c:.':' in-g -- Jul-m:2 4, L990
Cg-::~,c~:; .... ;: ..s;-;;aai, LJell this J.s a tough one. I road my wheely bike up that
Cou:'lC:.i.!m,:,;~ YJ,.~,-km,!:.m'l' ~.!ot 60 years ago. About 5.5 year~ ago I was riding up that
· '...lj.~.,y ~'!¢.,ln:;~l'.. .. Y,)u'tc I~oL o]d enough.
:::',u.r,c:iJm~,~ ~orkmal',: A~J t4:.: u~ed to sit on tt~e old bridge that was there and
5~,::~t F:~e] T t .:],~k,:.. Th,at was a big thrill for us and then we'd go back down CR
I
7 ::.~ '.~,tn,:':y A(.;i'-c~ ,~nd w:~ ;~ad more thrills a~d ~]ow tonight I have even more.
'.~e',,-.': :.bv.T.c'.~sZ>' gof.~mg to do conmethin~ ~ith this road. We're going to repair the
=c::.:";x:::,, obv~c.,~s;ly and ~il]y I d.~c',n't know your name was t'eally ~ilmer,
.. ,--:.~,-,.,:: ,': .... ,, .~t u Ysa].ly Wilmer. They don t on].y call me Willy. Some
~.~J-J- ;1'.[: ~'J(.;m' f-;,'::.
C~.'.~':',c.'.'l;..'~::n '~ ,', ',.- l : :,~ a ','; -'- I'vm been a part of a inajority on this Council and I'll let
:.".."'.:. 9~., :::.:: ~,'t,.c; I.h,.~t maybe .i..:: that ::s really, Yeally looked hard at the sidewalk
~.¢ · I..,,..:,,..:; L( ' ~ i ..,.,~..~
:.:.-:~.~..:: ...... '.:: . ~ z::'~ n-'~c:.~ ...... ~ ble. .Zf yo~ ~t here every council meetlng,
· .~ - [- I !.. 1
-':~-~- ,.,,..~,~.:. ~...,. l.e~s~ ,,z.~F of them rl~Ve Lnuo!ved ~ wild discussion on sidewalk~.
T:~:!.'~' Fu'r:=c. sz. Ti,s ?l~i].osophy. The overall p].an~ The whole ldea behlnd ~1]. of
~t .:r.d i:, f,.~c:L t~,~ P~'k ~nd Recr'e~tLo~ CommLs~iom': just I'mad
'::.~ ~d ~ ':p.':n~ ?:.rc. bably 75~ of the ~ime that we h~d with them on sidewalks.
~t'.. ~l~:.t b.ig of ~m~ Ls:~ue ~nd .i.t'~ been that b~g of an issue for me. [ think
~".'.: u~:~L~d do~n m~ost eveYy slde~-~]k ti,at ~ neighborhood wanted ~ust about.
' P, Lori t want,
,..,-~i;r,n.:~;~,.~r, '.JoYkman That 't ,e> didn'i, ~ant
C 0 U. TI, ~."~ ~
zwom,;n ..,imle'r: R';ght.
I,
Counc.i.l;z:arl DIor,.,~r~an: ~qLtt T.'m havlng problenls with this because t his is just a
'-.'" "~.. ~ ...:: hi:t ,dlr'[cr'e~t, am'md Z'm going to explain ~hy. If we don't build this
:.~i(JSwJ, lk, I 9Lti.tl',~T~.~-~" WrY'Il ll~Ver build another sidewalk in Char, hasse]~ again and
Z'm not ::.:t~te thai: overall, .lool<ing at the plan, that's good because there are
=t'e,~s :~here tee, rmmod sidewa].ks. The peop].e on Hinrmeuas[mta Parkway Z think all
· ..-' ~, .,sr,~emem:,. tltat thc.y want ~.~ sidewalk up there and Z can't imagine wher~
that's 9olng to 9o.
C'3:..:.T-,.C.i.!.rii&;; oOzt' ,~ctl..t~lly they re l~ot.
:qut.tr~,'-:.;.l;u._',~,: '-;,lorkman' Aren't they?
~' ........ :~,-:.:, ,- .... ~ There ~.;s o.'lg a splzt there as t' - is a p acc nfor' .
-. .................. nete ny I Lt tunately
7O
C."t), Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
Councilman Workman: Oh good. I'll stay up late for that. But my basic
p[;~Zosoph>' on the sidewalk issue has been, when we develop TH $ are we going to
have one on TH 5 because we don't want people on TH 5. Are we going to have
thsm on the major cci. lectors and the major roads and that has been my biggest
concern and this is obviously something of a collector. I'm terming it a
::el]et:tot. And a high volume road and it's certainly going to be a higher
volume ~'oad in the future. Are people from McGlynn's going to be using it to
get t() TH 212 or the school or anything else? I don't know if this Council has
th:~ foresight to say yeah, we're going to be peddltng our bikes down to Chaska'$
cc~T~n~unity center to use their community center by using this, etc.. I don't
!<now that Chaska has that plan or if our plan connects in with it or anythlng
else. So ~'m confused and while I want a sidewalk here, I'm very, very
concerned about retaining walls and trees belng lost and everything else for
something that the neighbors are a little blt unsure about how it's going to
look and stay clean and affect thelr property and everything else. Willy, aren't
yOl.t abutting Chanhassen or Lake Susan Hills?
~il]y Nolnau: Am I what?
Councitman Workman: Is your property abutting Lake Susan Hills?
W!IIy Molnau: Abutting? Yeah.
Councilman Workman: So you're pretty close to making some big money there
maybe.
Willy Holnau: Really? Got your checkbook along? Tom, I can help you out right
now. I'~1 make a hero out of you. Let's put the trail system on the west slde
of the road. Then you don't have no trees to worry about.
Councilman Boyt' Yeah we do. It's even worst.
Councilman Workman: Make a hero out of me but your neighbors probably, on the
ether side of the road anyway.
Willy Molnau: He's not here tonight.
Counciluoman Oimler: We discussed that already.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. We discussed that at one other meetlng.
Councilmarl Workman: But it's a situation that sitting here on the City CounclZ
for the past year and a half, I can see the use of this road. There's no way
we're going to be able to stop the truck use going down here. Trucks are like
u~ter, they just flow where lt's easlest to go and that's what they're going to
do. Z rarely use thls road myself except to drive up and see what's happening
up here this week to and from Chaska but Z am concerned enough about the
,' ..,.b,c].k ~o want to at least buy a 11ttle bit of time with this. As it was
suggested on Frontier Trail, if we can't approve the plans with the sldewalk in
but give jt some more thought to the impact, maybe have a Kool-aid party at
Wllly's and we can all come out and look at the trees and eveything else a
11ttle bit closer and maybe some of the details but enough to save the sidewalk
p;-ior to auardlng the bld. Z'm looklng at him. Prior to awardlng the bid and
71
~.o look ,-..t il'.[:~: ~:~aybc a little bit closet'. It ~ould appear a~ though the
i'.c-'~",:..~:-', et thc sideua].k that really impact a lot of th~ big trees is a very
?:r;~.;!.] :;or't.io~, ~'f th~, problem and that maybe the side~alk down the rest of the
~;3~? f:~';.~t ~. prob].~m. So I don't know if ~e can modify that o~' do something
there but. I'd like ~o look at that. It'd be very easy for me in this situation
3~c.~:~ as all tl',:~ other neigl,borhood situations to say ~ell if you don't want a
~ido~alk forDnt jr. Rut this thing is such a collector and such a major thru
f:,r.:, h.-.,';':, ih,'.t T t',~in~; it goes beyond, somewhat beyor,d tho immediate property
c,:,~ners' !.o tho r:~..::t of the c~mmunity and that's why I want to look at this a
~"tl~ ~.. ,~,~LL~'. Ti~tt i:~, t the easy way o~t tonight for me, wh~c:h I like to
t~kc~ 5u', I ~ould ~ike to find some opt~on~ on thi~. Unle~ we'~e out of them.
,t.:;'7 -;:',,.f ;'~'.~;.' .'.,.; don't know if I fo].Ioucd you completely Tom. You're correct in
-'.:;,'.:.'!' the ~:i:l.~:,~aIk ',Jy the 2arinsky property basically, that's the tree impact
ai-~.;~ on tl'~r~ rL;.r,.~], o~c'tior~ he~'a and ~hat'o where we have shr'ur, k by using the
¥-etaini'no ~,~].! and by addJ. nga storm sever in I~ere we're get'ting rid of the
~m~,',:.1 dr,;J.n;;9c djtc:]~ that will ba on the rest of the project but in this area
roe'ye gotten r.;d of the rural dralnage d~tc~m by installing storm sewer so ~e've
t'u ..... ;F c. oiup:-¢3s~':ed that section cs mucl~ as Z think is reasonable c~d still
:;~,:;.~imtaZF~ some :;orr of a clear zone. Th~s 1~ foot versus 31 foot. The further
tt~.;:t )',:~;t ~.~](I ',~, .(rig l.h,tt i1: T guess Jn tho wot-sc case scenario, hie'ye shrunk
d.:~w,-~ oar shoizl(!ef' whic[m the stand;rd i0 ~n O foot shoulder. ~e've shrunk that
J.,~;:'. to ?. ¢. foo~ .:~houIdcr on ~his side so we've tried to really pull it
;tm!.t~;l'; aa ,,..a::~onable. To sav;~ the trees out there, Z guess ulth the drip line as
· ..:.;'i"::;~'J.;, Z womt.t(I s.a.y that ur.: probably would need to pull that retaining
out .... ' ~ ~ ~-- ..
.o,,~,,ly,., don't ..no~, ~ to 10 feet
c..:,u,'~c:~Jma,', v,-.,, ,,,,,,.r, ,,.*,nothe,- 8-.10 feet towards the (;enter?
.... ,, er, ~h'~cl, would give you I r, ear, you re right or, the shoulder of the
r o,'.~ (] t h,.?.~ ~.
:;o~,r,c:t]t-~...,,.,',~r, Oimler-' So there's no room for the tra21?
.~;>-' ~,~,;'an Certainly not und:;r tha~ scenar2o. ~nd you ve got a reta&ning
;.;~.!; t'igI~ up aga&nst the shoulder of the road which is not a safe scenario
e J t h~'-,r -
Cou'nc"]man .,~l,nson KJ. nd o'f like an interstaLe like 494.
C.',~.~nc:iJ.m,-'~n Day1:' Much worse.
Mayor Chmiel' Nol quite as close.
....:,. ~n the audit;ncr: mad;-, a comment; that could not be heard on the tape.
,,,,/~,r [:[',miel.' I dol~'t think so. G,:~r>,?
'~'- .. '1 -- . .~.1 %
.~; ¢ .... r,"en ~n(:. 3ef-s~y bari'ie'r- is 6 feet. You I~ave a ~4 foot travel lane on
the t.
:-','idge. ~¢~ would have a 13 foot travel lane here in this area with
'o.-.~.-. ~]..~, ,~
................. ,c'.., then bel. wecl~ ~.l';e retaining wall. or I'm sorry, 9 feet between
'~'"- ,,,- ,"~*~J. n3.;,9, ~.;,~: I :?.o Z'l's' a lzt't]e' bit narrower up on the bridge section.
72
City Council. Meetfng .- June 4, 1990
Mayor Chmiel: What's your timeframe on this?
Car>' Warren; Well if we're going to construct the project his year, I guess we
need to continue to proceed with it here. The construction season and the time
for bidding and such, we're probably looking at a 60 days turn around to get
construction started and then we've got easement issues as well.
£uul,cilman Boyt: You can bid it both ways.
Gary Wafter,: You car, bid it as we had suggested on Frontier Trail with the
~.r~i! ss, ar, alternate or Council may want to consider splitting the trail from
lictor, Drive north from the Lake Susan Hills West subdivision. I guess there's
al! kinds of options. We can bid alternates and accept or reject them at the
ti~e of award as well.
Ccuncilman Johnson: Gary, if you move this retaining wall 10 feet and you're
saying that's to get outside the drip line of all the trees that are there?
Gary Warren: That's my conservative guess here without...
Councilman Johnson: I mean that means that there are some trees that are just
like right on the retaining wall or are you going to lose some?
C.~r>, Warren: Y~ah, the retaining wall we're showing in the section. Maybe I
should put it back up but that's, we're showing that at 2 feet. The base of it
F~; 3 feet off the right-of-way line and as Mr. Barinsky noted, he's more
familiar with his trees than I'm sure all of us. Most of them are very close to
the right-of-way line.
Co:~nci!mar, Johnson: Is there a possibility of doing something similar to the
t.;-idge at that point with the jersey barrier and moving that, putting in a
narrower trail at that polnt and puttlng in the jersey barrier and then movlng
th~ r~taining wall further to the west to save as many as possible, minimizing
;~hat damage? So go to a jersey barrier 14 feet off the center of the road.
O~ry Wa. rren: A jersey barrier on that side you're saying? Slide the trail.
Councilman Johnson: Narrow the trail down to 6 foot at that point. Just move
th~. rctaLning wall over as far as possible.
Gary Warren: We could look at that.
Councilman Johnson: Good.
Councilman Doyt: When you did your traffic study, what was your projected
v~hic].es per hour per day?
(There were two conversations going on at once at this point.)
~ayl~ Oegler: How much use do you project in the next 10 years?
Gary Warren.'. Or, the trail itself?
73
C,~i->' !,,'-,.,"~':~!;" b!e dc, n't [<now that,
,,,,>;-e Dog1,*;': And there'c no way to know if it goes any farther than Lyman. If
"' -:',3::....: ,'~.9!~!. lh~.'re for 15--20 ?ear.';, it's not goill9 to be getting much use at
,.'.!I .::~::.I ~ th~nk that'.~ ~ Jot or wasted mo~e>'.
~,'.7':,:-,..qhmis].' ~e11, being everybody's had an opportunit>, to express t hei'r
v.i,3wc, ~ sort of like the J. dea as to what we did on Frontie'r Trail. Leaving
Ll~,~t oper~ a3 an option. Put a trait in that specific ~rea. Z look at the
?creates1 of a]~ ov~¢'raly, of a 4 inch overlay that you're talking. Z don't see
~:,:;:-;t. ¢i'oblr;:~:: ~ith that. I think the road needs it. Zf we didn't do this, there
prob,~b].y would be some assessments adjacent to all the other p~operties from
tl~;$.. The TZF dZst¢Lc:t as Don oxpZaZned Js something tl~at doesn't have those
I. .
~s::.essnents uack to the property o~ners and at this particular time it ~ould
;;,..~',;.do '.,¢';'~,~t's exlotlng. ~ aZso feeZ that from the future Lake Drive ~est south
~.; ',.;-';~,..:l~, whfch is ~oi,,g to be that. 4 inch overlay, the balance of that you"re
· L,'.11::l~g roughly about 1,200 feet for the reconstruction south of the Soo Line
~ . . J
;'a.[.,,o~u, is that right. Gary?
,.,rzve blest Mr. Mayor'?
Right.
;qayc.,- ...,~,l]iel' RJ.~I~L.
.S. ,'? ~.!.."..: tel'.' I belie,,,, we',," ~ 300 feet
· -'~ ,~-, ~,
,qayor chmie].: Okay. There's nothing more we can do with that additional 6 feet
I.
f,',," t:,~: ',.:~l~ic.'°'
~ sight d[:3tance?
gary Wot'ten'- That is the minimum for 45 mph speed limit.
What happens if we put it down to 357
,q,~;"7 Wa;-";-en' Well, the State would have to approve that first of all? If the
qt~.',.:.~ ;.~u~ld approve it at 35...
:,al 4,.1.~, '~'-o' ,2fi Right. now it's .33 mph.
?i ;.:. k" ':, " ~' ' ''
,~.1,:2,:.~'. , I don't thl~,k. I'v~,. .seen one at 33.
ac~"? t. lar:'~-n; Yo~.~ remember them when you see them. What Harald is basically
..::r.;'"l',.:; ~':2. 2,r '...:a hit 2,5 mr-.h .speed limit through there, we could match the
:-.:<T:stlng roa, dwa>'. It uou]d then become ar, enforcement lssue as to whether the
;....:.r:~.~:.. ~:c.[:.l::! ,s.:s:tu~..].]7 ~t.z~,=. by that and whether the State uould go along with us
C:ou~',cC, lmar~ Johnson' It would increase our trafflc ticket revenue. We're
,. l :- ., ; a .:': ;, .tl:r. I;Jgl'~est tr~ff£c tlcke, t 'revenue in the County.
74
Council Hceting - June 4, 1990
Gary Warren: Our collector highways in the City are 45.
Mx/or Chmiel' Anyway, I guess that's where I'm coming from and no sense
reiterating vghat everyone else has said but that's what I'm looking at.
Co~i:~cilman Boyt: Alright, so what we're proposing in the short run is that we
approve the plans and specifications and ask for blds on a roadway wlth and
without a trail. I would so nlove.
Councilman Workman: Second.
..... · ".7 C.?,~ie,. ~t s been moved and seconded Discussion?
Counc';lwoman Oimler: We haven't addressed the speed limit and the lowering of
t he road.
,,,~,or Chmiel: Well I think that s part of the complete portion of this as well.
Cs, unci!man Johnson: The plans show a 6 foot.
Counci].woman Dimler: And it shows a retaining wall.
CoLtncilman Johnson: There are a lot of options to be gone here.
Courlcilman Bo>'t: I would suggest that if this road is going to serve what the
~ng~r:eering department is telling us is the purpose. Long term purpose of the
road. Then we've got to take the 6 feet out of it. If we leave the speed limit
~t ?5 ~,ph or we make the speed limit 35 mph, which it probably should be if the
roJd's not going to be changed, the road will not attract those trucks that we
~:~r,:. to get do~n eventually to TH 212. Now that may accomplish, well apparently
9~,¢en ~hJt their reaction is, that would accomplish what the neighborhood wants.
Th~.. ~s ohe of those issues where it won't accomplish what the city traffic flo~
or the engineer would recommend. Haybe that's an issue that the Council has got
tc res~ve. Do we want this road to be able to handle 4S mph traffic and
therefore trucks or do we want to see it posted and enforced at 35 which make it
p:-~bably the only road in Chanhassen that isn't lined with houses that was at
Councilman Johnson: Bill, I think it's a prediction from the computer model
that s, ays that the trucks want to take this route. I don't know if being a 35
or ~ 4~ will make a whole lot of difference to those trucks for this short
stretch. Plus, you know the experience we've had with HnDot on getting them to
say anythlng about reducing speeds. The answers come back almost everytlme that
tl:,sI higl)oi' speed is what they recommend· I'm trying to remember one where they
c~ae back and sald yes, reduce your speed limlt. If they go out there and radar
that road, they're going to tell us 55 rather than 45.
Councilwoman Dimler: I thought we said it was under city jurisdiction.
Nayor Chnliel' It is.
Councilman Johnson: It is to a point.
75
..X.~>'c.: Chi:~ic,.l' T:-,,'.'. :!ighw,ly Department re. viewing and making their recommendation.
.....,...,, "...,...',", -~:.; ', Th.s Co,i,i:~ission_ et. Trar, sportaLJ, on ha.s jurisdiction over tile speed
..... -.,-=.: .,: .,~:: S,.,~'[,z ro:~J~.~.a>,:-: c. xcc. pt ~.n school zones and alleys and one other I
· 3£".1-i't th~_l'i[L Of,
~i,,ler it zs a State 'road?
Cou:~c;i!t~oman ,.. ' ' It's not a c~ty street?
C-',.k:-y bJarFc:i'i' ~o: It i~ u city stree, t.
Co{~y,c.t.lt~ori~ar, Dim].er: So why does...
?c.-Ltrloilm,~l, 3efl],-c:on: Your street tt,e Stale has jurisdiction o,; your circle to
:-;:';-;'. ~: c;:,e3d limit Lhe're. Tile commissione'r of trarlspor~ation has that
:.~.".:i,/j.c',:J. on :,fa.*.r_-'t~jdr.: except. For scl~oo! zones ar, d what was the other' zone?
· -"'1 I l~..l. I . Il J .
:.,:n ,~,o:{ t +?l,sy ].n a o~nse'?
¢'.'k.~;i .... Il I ' : '; ~ ' I I [' : ]'i ill' WC:]']; t'Jh~;' they act UO'*'''::'' do in a speed u~udy- la they take the 85
pe~'cor:L~].e of thc cc:t',~a~ Lr~ve].ed speeds of the vehicles that they monitor for
I i..~ ~:. ' ] I ~)/
,. '.- ill'l[Yt [C'[J.I~L'i' '4'' Of week ar, d unless tllele's other overridin9 factors, f.l:at's
wh,';: :-'o'.t']] ?nd uF, ,~].th as a speed that they ~'ecoaaend. The 45 mph, as ~e're
;;It ,~.,...;.-,-r , tl}s :'~r,:'~h :¢outl~ coltectors ~ Chanhassen and in th~s area, TH tot
~.~¢: :'.~ d3;,.,.:::¢nt. ~ thZ~k the computer mode~ ~s reflecting that th2s -road ~s ~
· ca,.~ '~:h:,1. ~i].~ lx~ c:,rr'y~rtg ~J.,O00 veh~c~ss per day ~n 20 years and that's b~sed
o~; ;:o,~¢ :';,~'e'L'bF det~.~ed t~-ip ~onin9 that ~e've dene some b're~kdo~s on se Z
~ :'.~' ¢~% *s ,,:k ,
........ ,,.: ,~.c (yp~,3at~F ~oek [o for ~ correcter to be c~rry~ng.
'' ! ~ ~ ' ~' ' ~ iliaL', ' ~]Oll ~
.;... ,- ;~,.,,. just post it for 4 ton ax].e8 a year and then you ~on't have
n,::-
tlayo'~' "h:[,iel' You're flight. Okay. We had a motion.
;I I.
".'t>.'of ,C.,:li:[,;].: tlJoUl:J you rev]le~ your motion again.
C,.,~,r~ciJ. lr,~r, :'.,.,y,. ["[a].l the motion as it star, ds would be, or as I intended iL,
;oi~ld I~.r.; that thc plans ~'m(l specifications as currently stated would be bid out
c.c ~, tiat~ o~' whateve-'r' ):r¢ ~'c' raZZing it. So ~e'd be proposing t~o b~d packages.
A::: ct sk¢~nds mcar:s that
..... I I ? J
,o,.~b~a . T I~appen ~o think that ~ can understand the ne~ghborhood's Ls~e. Z ye
9c.t to 9c ~]tl'~ the ~ng~eerLng department telling me that thLs road L~ needed at
H,.-,/o," chmi,-:]..' i'll ~.,till ].ike to see it checked out to see ~hat we can one way
"}~' [. f'.(': ,.'~i I[1': i
76
June 4, 1990
£o:..tr. cil~ar, Doyt: Sure. Well I'm open to that as part of the motion. If
,-~p??,~:~-i~te we can get them to bid it both ways. All four ~ays. I don't know.
~¥c.',- Chmi~l: It gets a little confusing.
gar>: Wa:-:'er~: Yeah it does for the contractors.
Ma/or Chmiel~ Right.
Co~.,~cil,nan Boyt: ~ell one bid would be the 4 inch cap or whatever the depth
the cap. Uirtua]ly no grading. ~nother bid would be reducing that section
feet with sidewalk. ~nd the third one ~ould be reducing it 6 feet without
sido~alk. Does that make sense? ~ould they do that? Would they submit that
many bids to us?
Gar>' UarFen: If we ask them, I'm sure they will.
Councilman 3ohnson: If they want the 3ob.
C,r~u,,ci].,~ar, Boyt: What's your thought? Should we do all 37
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes.
Mayor Chmiel: I ~ould think we should.
Councilma]] ~orkman: What was Four first suggestion?
Cour~cil~an Boyt: The first one was that we 9o for it as written without
s~de~alks uhich ~ould be 45 mph. The other option, and this is definitely not
Robert's Rules here but we'll ~ork something out, is to throw in the 25 mph.
Councilman 3ohnson: Let me complicate this. ~re you talking the entire
sidewalk or no trail everywhere or are you talking from here and south?
Councilman Boyt: Everywhere.
Cou~',c~].mar, 3ohnson: Completely eliminate them?
Councilman Royt: It's either in or it's out. When we get the cost figures
back, maybe you'll want to cut that up somewhere.
Councilman 3ohnson: Because I think from here onto Park i~ e~n a more
essential part of the trail system in that that's for the people in the west
side of Lake Susan Hills to get to Lake
Resider, t: They have a sidewalk in their neighborhood takin~ them over to CR
Councilman 3ohnson: If you live in the west side, you're not 9oing to 9o all
th3 way to CR 17 and then backtrack.
Resider[: Yes you can.
Cc. unc!lman 3ohnson: Oh you can but I know kids.
77
C.ttF 30L~l:{.~'_ I';¢ctLnu - June 4, 19~0
....: ...... ,.;::.,I.' SIc ]iv.~.,.cn t-I~ron Drive and you can and there will be a 9idewalk
,-: (.; f' 0 D'..-~.
Oo~tnc:il,'~,-~n ,lohnson: oh ?eah. ~'m sura that you call do it but I kl~ow my
c. ilTL,'.lre.~ and wh~.t they .would do. They'll go out to audubon. You kno.w ~y kids
l.c,o. I',;.."~: been over in xour barn. They .would go to audubon and go right on up
~tour, cilwom.~ blmler' If at 35 we don't have to lower the road.
Okay, ~,,'-e have that motion before us. Is there a second?
~-, , ~... ' 1r J ,
,_.o,t,:~.~.ma.~ goyl: I ~,hi]~k .we I~ad a second
Resolution ~90-61: Councilman Boyt moved. Councilman t~orkman seconded to
approve plans and specifications and authorize for bids for the upgrade of
Audubon Road from Soo Line Railroad to Lyman Boulevard, Improvement Project No.
~?-I~ ~il.h the following three alternatives: The first alternative as submitted
hy staff, the second bld would be reducing the road section by 6 feet with a
~idev~alk, and the third one would be reducing it G feet without sidewalk. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
ZOHING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND ARTICLE II, SECTIONS 20-56 THROUGH 20-70
PERTAINING TO PROCEDURES FOR THE ISSUANCE OF VARIANCES (PUBLIC HEARING HELD AT
T!!S HARCH 21, 1990 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING), FIRST REAOING.
~;~t;;;c:Ll~;,an Johnson'. Is there going to be debate on this issue?
E,.'-. F c-';- £h.-q. !e' ' ~ ' '
· ~ ,don t think so. ~ d move it for the first readLng.
Paul ',.'¥,;u::s: Dy the ~ay> Z should point out though. The draft of the ordinance
'.k,'.:t /~:kt i-2G&i,J&.] ir~ yoLtl' packet ~as an older one that d~dn't I~ave the most
~p,dat;~ co~'sect~ons. Tonight T gave you the one that Roger had corrected that
;';&.-k::-~F'P':;:;,::~ :-:)b6 ig yOtti- packet. There ~as only a one ~ord change in it and
~,;e t,~!kc;r! about that c~mange in the text.
'2c-~tl;~:~].iil~F: .]ohnsol~: You dLd? Oh here it is.
H,$,yoY chile.l: Mh6t p~ge?
2,;[11 ',('r2, LtgS: E1].lott, do you remember where that change was? Zt was a one word
Jcl1.
S]!~ott ~(netsch: 5(a) Z thlnk.
:-a~,,. ,,,~u.,~, Oh the Moral exclusivel, y ~as dropped
CouncJ].~man 5oFt: Undue haf'dship?
p,~m.:~ KYalzss" Uh.:I~;F tlc,due I~ardsm'~p, yeah.
E.lli. ott Knul.:~:ch: (c). Ztenm 5(c).
78
City Council Meeting - June 4, 1990
flayor Chmiel: Item (c). under Section 5.
Ce:~ncilman Johnson: Yeah. The last page. Page 3.
Paul Krauss: Yeah, it used to be that the purpose of the variation is not based
exclusively upon the desire to increase property value. That was thought to be
confusing I believe by Councilman Johnson. The word exclusive.
Councilman Johnson: Too restrictive.
P.~ul K~'a~,ss: Yeah. The word exclusively was deleted.
Councilmall Johnson: Could never be proven exclusively. It's kind of a shadow
of a doubt argument.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, is there any discussion on this? If we don't have any
disc:ussior,.
Court {~
c..,man Boyt: There is.
Councilman Johnson: I move that we table since it's midnight. This is a very
i~,portant lssue ~nd if we're going to have any lengthy discussion on this one,
there's no huge urgency on it.
M~yor Chmiel: 6teat. I'm all for it.
P~ul Krauss: Would it be alright if we folded it onto next week's meetlng?
Councilman Johnson: Yes.
Councilman Boyt: Would you put it on there early.
~:>,o? Chmiel' Table it to the next Council meeting. Hove it up.
Councilman 3ohnson: $o do we get a second on my motlon to table?
Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman ~orkman seconded to table Zoning Ordinance
Amendment to amend Article II, Sections 20-56 through 20-70 to the next City
Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
Z~yor Chmiel: I have just one thing that I wanted to bring out about the
assoclatior, of Metropolitan Municipalities. They're requesting for at least
someone 'from our Council to look at posslbly signing up our own policy committee
which would cover the 5 different items and I think the Council all received a
copy. I just wanted to brlng thls up to make sure if there's anyone that's
ir, terested, that they should get their application form in on or before June 21.
Other than that I'm finished. Jay? Completion of the U.S. Census.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah. Completeness. This City has grown tremendously
since the maps were made a year and a half ago upon which the U.S. Census based
79
th-:.S.," c. oun'L Jn this 1. curt. The bonus system and stuff [hat they have does not
I,.';'..,;.. ,:',', ir:cc;~t.~vc for thr-~;:~ to count neu hoaes that h~vo beei~ bu2[t. They have
ar~ ~.nc;sntive [o complete their book. Z'a uorried that ue have a sienificant
,;..,,:',(-.-coi~;! ir,, Ll:;s town. X do have a lot of inside Jnformat2on on uhat happened
~¢.~. tbs L'.C. Cen,;,t~s ~n th~s tou~ s~nce BF u~fe vas one of the census takers
l-~n¢c aha X'v¢-~ L,slkeJ to tho st~pecu~sor and s[uf¢. H2th~n Sa~2y's area, she
~u r.,.d very haf'd on 9erring neu hoaes and she added Pages of ~e~ homes to her
book aha sf~e ha.d the ~af'gest book ~n toun. But the~ her's got spt~t off and
:':ant elf s:oa~p~ace e}se so ~hat ; vented to do vas grab ZO homes. ~ ~Jst
p2.¢.~c.,':.¢; h~:'¢o Zn to~n arid send ~t ~n to the supervisors tn North Hankato from the
aZ'L>' :s,sy~n9 u¢~re these tO homes counted ~n your census. ~f they come back
.;,:.y}'~9 ;-;~-':'..~. t,:.~ coi.tn(a~:J 3 of thee, s~y hey we uoutd ~&ke yo~ [o do a complete
,'.o~'nL c.'r i.~}s c~f~sus hef-e. Of course those JO he,es uou~d not be a ~'andoa~y
_... ~~ ~ .I . ~¢'~
.., ...... ..';.c:..;,imi-,iii~g They would be ...].acted fron new areas ~nd stuff. Z'n not
t;-yi.-~u to ti. va thnnm an easy 'task here. The easy task is the established homes.
't~;..;.,: t.;::f~-: the t~i~3 ti~at the people had to do to get their bonuses but
~!.,::c.:~';: a d.'i~.courgomrmermt to go out and pick up the new houses to get your bonus
'c.~-.,..,',t':s:-; :,ti w.:~s:t,;,d Fomzr tiaa. The maps they had for the census wore
:?;.',~:?..-1.ii¢-: ,, ,.; , k;~al, so wh~:t are you asking Jay?
~Ottl,,¢J...~rT!i~Ti ~ohllsOh~ ~n [act, Ursu]a's house ~as not o-.n the census nap even
i ,,, ~ ~ i
Cour,.o[1-~o.q~afl DJ.r;llor: My house wasn't on there?
finunciln, a~ 7ohnson: No. Well, there was only like 2 houses Orl yol.tF circle
~. :if.'-'f ,.: f)il t ]'1~' :';'~J)..
L. (,:~ -. WES11 t 60Ull~ed?
L'.¢un(;Jl.,'~an Johnson.' Well if you sent ,~ form ln. SonlehOW they got you but i'm
:.,.'.:',d::::"~d wh.~,:'.he~' that SilOUld be signed by tl~e Mayo'r' of' just City Manager that
'..h~-.'r'¢.'.':.', .; c~nce;-T~ ,r;-onl the count:il that we have a complete count because there's
Y, .~ y :':. 'r ch:,l:::.l' Z'11 slgn lt. You draft lt, we'll send it. Okay, Bl11.
?.~:.'..si!,;~,:,n Ou>'t: T'r'd.:! referendum. What I would like to see us do.
C.,itnc].[woman Biliiler: Oh geez, let"~ not have a long discussion.
Co;,r',.:;LLme, n Boyt: No, this is going to be so sii,~ple because everybody's going to
,-}g'.,ne. I:-.': I'd like to see the Councl], ~nd maybe you dld this because I wasn't
,:.-L i:hs...- join~, n:eetif~. Direct the P~'r'k and Rec to prepare; ~ referendum fei' ~
t.~.',.~i..1 on the major- thoroughfares in Chanhassen for this fall. That would be
,,~..n:.-..*..;;,:... .......... , TIt 101 ,~d other m~ybe of comparable sorts of roads.
3oLti,ci].mafm Johnson: TH 41.
~.,'.,Lm.:'~C~, l.;,JmOI;l~l'l Oilfll,s.r :
8O
Meeting - June 4, 1990
Councilman Doyt: But that it would, and my point in this is that several of the
~:.ccple or, tho Council have mentioned from time to time that you would support
~,railz on n~ajor thoroughfares. I think the two times that it has, in my
c.F. fr, ion, narrowly lo~.;t in the past has been when it has become immersed in a
neighborhood issues of a residential kind of do I want it in my little
rl~ig.hhsrhood. I think the town a~ a whole needs some trail system on there and
~ o :ike to have Park and Rec put it together.
:X,'.yor Chmi¢!: Well we can't take a~tion on that tonight.
Councilman Workman: Well I did in fact at the Park and Re¢ meetlng dlscuss that
~n~: ~ brought st up in fact of all things.
Councilman Johnson: We're seelng you get more and more pro trail all the tlme
Tom.
Co,~n~-ilnlan Workman: That's rlght. I've never been anti-trail Jay.
Councilman ~ohnson: I know. You've never been pro-trail either.
Councilman Worknlan: And I don't know ifa referendum thl$ time ls good or not.
~ g,~s.~ 7'd llke some more time to think about that.
£cL~nci',.mar, Boyt: Well we're going to have plenty of time· Why can't we refer
this to P~rk and Rec to prepare this? They're not golng to get it prepared ina
month. Is doesn't have to go on our agenda to refer it to them.
,~-~:~nc';]uoman ,q. imler: No but we can't take action on Council Presentations.
Mayor Chmiel: We dld tell them to prepare a plan.
£,',,~n~:iIwom~n Oimler: I think we did.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes we did.
Councilman Boyt: But I'm not talklng about just a trail plan. I'm talklng
abc:ut, a trail plan i~ going to, I would think, is going to be something like
the one we already have. What I'm talklng aobut ls just specific, major
corridors.
Mayor Chmiel: We discussed that.
CoLtnc:Jlman Johnson: We discussed a major corridor plan.
Counci]nlan ,~oyt: Okay. They're already golng to do that.
.... our:~.~lman .~ohrlson: I think so and that could lead to a referendum in November.
!layor Chmlr~l: Okay. Tom.
~_,:,n,.slman Workman: I guess I don't have anything to discuss on this. Just
what ~r~., ~ noticed in the packet that people are keeping in touch. If I can
be, if the Counc11 can be kept in touch with what's going on. I thlnk thls is
81
' " I~,?e-.f. jn.~ - :Iune ,I, 1.990
:.:.io~> ~.....;, :o ,. COLinCi].'--ove;-a].]. plan to control ~atet' in the metro area,
:..!.'... Nc.i j,~' i i'v:e,a b,.tt pond~ and everythi~g els:e ~t~d I'd like to be kept
· J'. .... I ~ q
:,::/-.~:"' ' ' .. r, ,, -, ~' .;~ ' ~ ..'hink can pl'obably vie~ that a little bit because of i,y
,"~-::.pon.¢:lbility as 5. t t~ere. Net Council's o;~e of ,ny ~esponsibJ. 15_ties.
Can /ou please keep me informed Mr. Hayer?
,,,.,,.,c t.,,~,Jel' I'd love 'to. Tell ,,e your concerns and I'll make sure I address
'~ I:O';E:.
?'a!~l '..:i"'-..,:..-~,: Hi'. HayoF, I c:an fill you in on that meeting. I was at that
*.. ~ I I . },,,,,,..~' ,~,
,;,.:. ,.'. " .-'. r~.:: , ..-,::; .... ~,:. =t,_v,-, l<eefe kicked it off. There t~as a lot of concern
'~', .... / . We
; ..... ,(,; ,?'qUi! ~.::;SLiO:3 Ill ,~J. rst or all, there's some concern about uhat the
".':.'.":' ? .'[ ": axe::'..' '.,.-' ':,e.(:~,~..:... ~.. hey don' '.. undar:~tand, it themselves . They' re doing
'"";' ^f ~h;.. "inl~::'.ota R'lvor. It's rea]. curious that the Hin~lesota River uhlch
!~: ~'".... ~. :"" ..:,:.:''"~.; ~,' s~,- ',:;u 1 f a;'c,'. . .. ,.,"rainag~- ,,.. is having problem~ +hat, "he:/,. relate to urban
~,,..,.-.,~..~.~o;.;,~;~,~;[ ~he;, ~,h..'; ~,ississippi is not But they talked about tl~e 40~
:....-.-~-.! .- ~ .... ,' . ~' . ~
.... .., ..... i;;<:~;;:'t:io~',. C.oo~or'~Lve effort. ~ lot of thingz; that
' ~ "' L h " .
'ILl[ [ iii I'i]< '1'c ..
c .~ ~ tt~o equit~ i. ssue~ for its The first ia that eve~ybod~
:~- :.: t';. .; ;5 ~ ', 'c ..~omcl. hing uniformi1/ in and out of the metro area. The second one
that '.-.,.it,,in the me'Leo area that we don't pa~ the p~ioe for Bloomington and
~"~ .:~ 5.:,. ' .', ~ f,-~..; ~ ..~
. , ..... ~'s-e to ~,, aometl'~i,',g b/ having our development potentia1 choked
~ I.
.~:f P-~L:;ci' c.~,iaou~l:/ ,t; ~ot o'r the Net'co Count:il. folks that t,oere the~e kept on
e.., : ' ~,~F~'J * ' " .. '
-:-., _;,~ .,': ~ s~3.'. ,:on~.'coJ3,~ b~-:ir, g the opora~J, ve mecnan.ism to olean t~p th~
'"'., ....... ..... ..:,' ,:~,' "",:~t r,.;at~:., +hat~ they're gOitlg to t~-y to olamp do~n on us because
o'. a~. ~.:: ,'".:..":.:"'.,,.:;:,:.. ~.,~'f. et'~,- folk~ ct'eared uhen this city-'s been fairly
.:;;~,:~,.:.;~:r~'.._ic:',t=: ¢~;,.,ifar, r;:ent,zlly. Tonight ~:~f].J. er during the meeting
,I _ ~'~
.... ',~.'J~',': u,. ' r:~:'~pOT,::..c Lo Steve Keefe basically saying ue're concerned about the
.... ~. 1%.
,:.;;~,~:;,.' ~..~...;_t~,.': ~,.¢e. Ue'~'e doJ. i~9 a lot on our oun. I outlined what t~e proposed
..' .: .... :,~.;.g in ~ hs fut~tre arid sat,., that ~e'd like to be involved and if a Task
~ )'r'CO MAr; C.i"8~'[ > I
e(, to uork on this, that ue'd like some representation on that.
"..o.;'.kc,~:,, /o;t informed u}th uhat I knou but that's uhere it sits right nov.
£:uncilman Johnson moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to adjourn the meeting.
'voted i~ favor and the motion carried. The meeting ess adjourned at 12:00
,nldnight~