1990 03 26CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR NEETIN6
HARCH 26, 1990
Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m.. The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the FLag.
COUNCIL ~EMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Workman, Councilwoman DimLer
and Councilman 3ohnson
COUNCIL HEJ~BERS PJ)SENT: Councilman Boyt
STAFF PI~ESENT: Don Ashworth, Elliott Knetsch, Gary Warren, Paul Krauss, Todd
Gerhardt, and Jim Chaffee
~d~PRO~ OF AGENDA: Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman DtmLer seconded to
approve the agenda with the following additions to Council Presentat£ons: Mayor
Chmiel wanted to discuss having a resolution from City Council sent to the Girls
and Boys Basketball teams; and Councilman Workman wanted to discuss the state of
legislative affairs. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
CONSENT ~END~: CounciLwoman Oimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendat tons:
a. Re~olution ~90-34: Set Date to RescheduLe Public Hearing, Modification to
Development District No. I and Tax Increment District No. 2.
b. Zoning Ordinance Amendment for RSF District Standards DeaLing with Lot
Frontage and Access by Private Driveways, Final Reading.
d. Final Plat Approval, Ersbo Addition.
e. Final Plat Approval, Trappers Pass at Near Mountain 4th Addition.
g. Approval of Accounts.
h. City Council Minutes dated February 26, 1990
City Council Minutes dated March 12, 1990
Planning Commission Hinutes dated March 7, 1990
i. Approve Amended Professional Services Contract with RCM for Comprehensive
Plan Update.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
F. APPROgAL OF 1990 LIgUOR LICENSES.
Don Ashworth: If I may Mr. Mayor, Tom had stopped in earlier questioning the
wine license as it appears in the Council's packet. We show the fee for that as
$2,000.00. We took that from State Statute and if you see by the handout I
distributed, it appears to be saying that the fee will be $2,000.00 or 1/2 of
the on-sale License. Since on-sale Licenses range from $8,000.00 to $13,000.00,
1/2 of that would be far more than the $2,000.00 we're showing. The key word
City Council Meeting - March
'j ::
however is, may not exceed so in fact the City Council may assess a fee less
than $2,000.00. On the back side are a list of other cities in the comparable
wine sale which includes beer, for those cities. As I noted to Councilman
Workman, you could make justification in saying that there's a number of them
that hit into the $200.00-$250.00-$300.00 range. You could also make
justification that there's a number of them in the $500.00 range. In any case,
I think that the $2,000.00 amount shown is probably could be a misreading by
other cities of this same statute or I don't think that they're as common as
some of the lower numbers. I don't know if the Council wishes to entertain
selecting a lower number this evening or tabling the item to another evening.
Councilman Workman: If Z could explain. I talked to a proprietor in town who
does have a beer and wine license obviously and in looking at thi~ ~ wasn't sure
what the justification was and that was it raised my questioning and I presented
it not knowing the statute actually but rather what was it based on. It seemed
rather out of whack with everything else. The gentleman doesn't sell hardly
$2,000.00 worth of beer and wine and would like to keep it but it seemed kind of
expensive and so that's why I question it. I'm not sure what it should be at.
Councilman Johnson: My gut feeling is at $250.00. Same as the other licenses
basically. We only have one place selling the beer and wine on this list?
Mayor Chmiel: It's the only one.
Councilman Workman: I don't think there's a distinction between beer and wine
is there7 I thought that if you had beer, then wine would come with it. Wasn't
that our discussion Don7
Don Ashworth: That's correct.
Councilman Johnson: This has just a wine license in the State Statute.
Councilman Workman: Wine meaning if you could sell wine then beer would be with
it.
Don Ashworth: That's correct.
Councilman Johnson: In that case, since we with the beer license, on-sale non-
intoxicating, that's beer? Basically $250.00 or is that just 3.2 beer or
something?
Elliott Knetsch: Non-intoxicating is 3.2.
Councilman Johnson: 3.2. So we're telling them wine and beer?
Councilman Workman: I think the State is moving towards getting rid of that 3.2
distinction.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah. I'm sure you can get intoxicated on 3.2. It takes a
lot of trips but.
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
Mayor Chmtel: Some people would who have the, are not too intolerable for total
amount of consumption.
Councilman Workman: Don, should I move to table this so we can put some logtc
into it and look at it and research it?
Don Ashworth: It would appear as though $250.00-$500.00, either would be in the
ballpark. I don't know if it's really worth tabling recognizlng you have one
license. You could really justify either so I think maybe if there's
concurrence with Council on one of those two numbers.
Councilman Johnson: $250.00.
Councilman Worman: Well I'd more $250.00 then.
Councilman Johnson: I'll second it. are you movtng the whole item with the
modification that this would be $250.00?
Councilman Workman: Right.
Mayor Chmiel: There's a motion and a second, any discussion? I guess I have
just one question. In approving these liquor licenses, take into consideration
any serving to minors before we issue these licenses. Have we looked at that?
Don Ashworth: Jim, would you like to respond?
Jim Chaffee: Yes Mr. Mayor. When the applications come in, tt's forwarded.
All the applications are forwarded to me and we do criminal history checks and
backgrounds. Every one of them came out clear. There ~ere no indications of
that.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, good.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilman 3ohnsonseconded to approve the1990 Liquor
Licenses as amended to change the requ/rement for the Anh Le Restaurant to
$250.00. all voted In favor and the mot/on cart/ed.
3. aUTHORIZE COfBENNRTION FOR R PORTION OF LOT 2, BLOCK I RND LOT 1, BLOCK 2,
CHAN HAVEN PLAZA FOR PUBLIC UTILITY ~ND RO~dJMRY EASEMENTS; L~dKE DR/gE F-qST
PROJECT 89-6.
Councilman Johnson: I Just notice that the City attorney had an modified
resolution on this one so I figured somebody better pull it so he can give us
the modified resolution.
Elltott Knetsch: That's correct-. I have cop/es if anyone on Council wants it.
The only change is to allow the City to proceed by the quick take provisions of
the eminent domain statute. The City Engineer and I today got the updated legal
descriptions for the permanent and temporary easements.
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
Re=olutio.o_~90-35: Councilman Johnson moved, Counciluoman Dimler seconded to
approve the modified resolution authorizing condemnation of property public
utility and roadway purposes across a porttn of Lot 2, Block 1 and Lot 1, Block
2, Chart Haven Plaza. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
V/SZTOR PRESENTAT/ONS: None.
PRESENTAT/ON OF PLAGUE TO DALE GEVZNG FOR VOLUNTEER SERVZCE TO THE SOUTHWEST
HETRO TRANSZT COMHZSSION.
Mayor Chmiel: Number two is a well deserved presentation of a plaque to Dale
Geving for volunteer service to the Southwest Metro Transit Commission. I would
like to make a formal presentation to Dale. The City of Chanhassen, Carver
County, State of Minnesota, Resolution No., and that's going to be added on
there. Whereas, Dale Geving has served for 3 years as a member of the Southwest
Metro Transit Commission representing the City of Chanhassen; and Whereas, Dale
Geving has been instrumental in fostering, encouraging and improving local
public transit service; and Whereas, Dale Geving has demonstrated his ability to
advise and work cooperatively with governmental agencies and the public, and
Whereas Dale GeVing has voluntarily served the public interest in overseeing the
provision of an efficient and cost effective local public transit service; and
Whereas the Southwest Metro Transit Commission wishes to thank Dale Geving for
his manx contributions to the Commission which have demonstrated his commitment
to improving public mobility; Now Therefore, Be It Resolved by the City Council
of the City of Chanhassen, Minnesota that the City Council recognize the
volunteer commitment that Dale Geving has made to the Southwest Metro Transit -
Commission representing the City of Chanhassen. Adopted by the Chanhassen City
Council on the 26th day of March, 1990. Dale, congratulations. In addition to
that resolution, we have here, if I can get it out.
Councilman Johnson: We should give him a bus pass too.
Mayor Chmiei: As it says here, in recoginition of Dale Geving for fostering and
encouraging improving local transit services on the Southwest Metro Transit
Commission from 1986 through 1989. In addition to that, we have... Thank you.
We appreciate all the contributions that you've done.
Dale Geving: I'd like to say thank you to each of the Council members for your
support. Appreciation of this plaque wilI be weli deserved for a long, long
time. I'd like to say that I'm going to accept this plaque for all the
dedicated members that [ served with on the commission from the cities of
Chanhassen, Chaska and Eden Prairie. In 1985 this City Council, Eden Prairie
and Chaska made a bold move. We decided to opt out and we opted out to create
our own transit authority which is now the Southwest Metro Transit Commission
and I want to thank Ursula and Jay for carrying on. I think we've built a very
good sound transit position for our communities and wish you the best. Thank
you very much. Thank you Don. Thank you council members.
Councilman Workman: Dale, we have an extra chair tonight.
City Council Meeting - March 26, ~990
PUBLIC HEARING: UACATION OF RIGHT-OF-#AY /tND EASEHENTS, CROSSRON) PL/tZh SECOND
AODITION.
Mayor Chmtel: As we move along with the agenda and believe me this ts going
a~most too fast. We have the next item is a public hearing and the public
hearing is covering the vacation of the right-of-way and easements of Crossroad
plaza Second Addition. Being that 3o Ann is not here, Paul are you going to
cover that?
Pau! Krauss: Yes Mr. Mayor. I'1~ try to keep up the pace here. Last February
you approved the final pIat for Crossroads P~aza Addition. It's the subdivision
that's going to a[1ow the construction of the Crossroads Bank. It also resulted
in the creation of three outlots which we are going to transfer over to MnOot
for TH 5 reconstruction. We need to vacate some underlying easements. The oId
West 79th Street and some adjacent easements before this pIat can be f£1ed and
we're requesting that you do that tonight. We no longer need the easements or
the right-of-way for any pubZic purpose. We're recommending that you approve
it.
Councilwoman Dim[er: ! move approval.
Mayor Chmie[: Is there anyone wishing to address this? As I mentioned, this
a public hearing. It's your opportunity to come forward and voice an opinion.
Once again this Is a public hearing.
Councilman 3ohnson ~oued, Counctl,o~an Dialer seconded to clo~e the pub]lc
hearing, h]l voted In favor and the ~otlon carried. The public hearing uae
closed.
Resotution ~t90-36: Counc/lwoman Dialer moved, Counc/iaan 3ohnson seconded to
approve Vacation Request ~90-2 vacat[ng old #est 79th Street right-of-~ay and
all old public utility easements deecr/bed on the Frontter Development Park plat
as shown on the plans dated Hatch 20, 1990 with the following condition:
1. The vacation utll not be recorded until after the final plat hee been
recorded.
/111 voted In favor and the motion carried.
PUBLIC HF. ARZNG: UPGI~DE OF NJDUBON RON) SOUTH OF RAZLRON)'TO LYtMN BOtJLEVN~
IXPROUEflENT PROJECT 89-18, AUTHORZZE PREPN~TZON OF PLiMIS'NID SPECZFZC/ITZONS.
Public Present:
Name
Oavid Stockda[e
Harald Eriksen
Address
830[ Audubon Road
Howard, Need[es, Taamen & Bergendoff
Architects, Engineers & Planners
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
Gary Warren: This is a public hearing to review the feasibility study for the
upgrade of Audubon Road as was introduced by the Mayor. Audubon Road was
upgraded from TH 5 to the railroad tracks this past year as part of the
improvements that were done with the McGlynn Bakery site and as everybody is
aware, we abut Prince's sound studio on the northeast corner here. This is a
continuation of the project scope. Segment 1 would be upgrading the road to an
urban section consistent with the segment just to the north of the railroad
tracks. That being, would have a concrete curb and gutter and a 44 foot road
width with sanitary sewer, watermain and a small portion of storm sewer in it.
To the south we would basically upgrade the road with an overlay to do some
minor vertical alignment corrections to meet state standards in a couple or one
particular area near the south end of the project but for the most part it's an
overlay project and we would be staying with the same rural section which is
gravel shoulders and no other utility improvements along the road. The project
scope as shown in the feasibility study, to summarize the elements here. This
overhead shows the sanitary sewer which basically will serve two purposes. One
is to provide service to the abutting properties in this segment of Audubon Road
and also as a receptor for ultimate service coming from the northwest from a
pump station that is proposed for the Audubon Court area. The watermain
elements of the project include extension of the City's trunk watermain. We
have a casing underneath the railroad tracks from the northerly project. We
will be picking up the 12 inch watermain at that point and tying into the loop
on Huron Drive which exists today and also to the future connection of Lake
Drive West scheduled for construction this year with appropriate hydrants to be
constructed. The other element, basic element of the project is the sidewalk
trail system. Part of the key elements of the City's network call for
construction of a trail along Audubon Road to connect up with the piece that was
constructed north of the tracks and also to provide a receptor for the other
adjoining trail system which will be constructed for example on Lake Drive West.
This will include a structure crossing the Soo Line railroad tracks since the
current bridge width would not accommodate an on bridge of this trail. The
properties that are being proposed to be assessed as a part of the project,
basically there are 3 property owners. I'll go back to the watermain and
sanitary sewer chart. Basically it's watermain and sanitary sewer elements
which are being proposed for assessment to those benefitting properties to abut
the utility. Stockdale property, the Redmond Products property and Charles
Hattson property which basically abuts Audubon Road on the west side. This
portion of Lake Susan Hills West 3rd Addition already has watermain service so
it is not included in the service area for assessment. Similarly, the sanitary
sewer assessment is a little bit more restricted because we're only taking
sanitary sewer down to the future Lake Drive West connection but both sides of
the road are proposed for inclusion of the assessment area and this graphic
shows the property owners. Again. preliminary assessments report assessments of
approximately $112,000.00 of the total project cost would be included in the
assessment so when ultimately we assess in probably 1991. That's basically the
overview of the project. We're looking for lnput on the public hearing and then
authorization of plans and specifications.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Gary. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone
wlshlng to address any speciflc lssues regarding thls proposal?
City Council Heeting - Hatch 26, [990
Dave Stockdale: ['m Dave Stockdale. ! own the property at 8301 Audubon. As
I'm reading through this, this is the first chance T've had to Look at it,
apparently there's consideration for acquisition of some of my property to make
this feasible. [ was curious what the standard method of acquisition is.
Gary Warren: Z believe Hr. StockdaLe is referring to our 17 foot additions1
right-of-way that we are interested in obtaining. There are several routes that
can be gone. One is to outright negotiate with the property owner for the
parcel. Zf equitable arrangement cannot be arrived at through that method, then
the City could pursue condemnation of the easement similar to what was on the
earlier part of our agenda this evening in which case appraisers are involved
from both parties to appraise, the value and it then goes'through the formal
eminent domain process through the court system to establish an equitable
settlement using commisioners of the court to come some settLment after hearing
both parties' cases or platting, if you happen to be platting a subdivision. If
it was to the City's interest and the Interest of your plat, the City could
require you to dedicate the easements but in this case, at Least to this point
in time, that's not proposed. So our first choice would be to sit down and
negotiate with the property owner.
Dave StockdaLe: Who would I be negotiating with?
Gary Warren: HyseLf probably and a representative from the City Attorney's
office.
Dave Stockdale: It was my understanding when I bought this property that one of
the main reasons for these improvements was to create a loop with the
development to the south. That that was considered advantageous for the sewer
system but you're stubbing it off before it gets to that property.
Gary Warren: SpecificaLLy on the sanitary sewer, we are sho~tng with this
project extending the sanitary sewer to the future Lake Drive West and we
similarly have at this point a feasibility study being prepared for Lake Drive
West for construction this year also. That this will also connect into it so
when you put both projects together, the loops are complete.
Dave Stockdale: Okay, but it wouldn't make sense to do that connection prior to
upgrading the south segment too?
Gary Warren: Z don't know if I understand your question.
Dave Stockdale: It's my understanding that part of the segment 2 you'd be
upgrading the road in a rural fashion?
Gary Warren: BasicaLLy an overlay, that's correct.
Oave StockdaLe: Okay, but at some time in the near future you'd be tearing that
up and connecting the sewer in with Lake Orive?
Gary Warren: No, maybe if I put a graphic up It'd be easier. The sanitary
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
sewer, this element we are proposing to only include sanitary sewer to what will
be ultimately the Lake Drive West project which we are currently doing the
feasibility study on. The southerly end of the project, segment 2 from Lake
Drive to the south, is intended to stay rural section. It's outside the City's
urban service area and therefore is not eligible for sanitary sewer service at
this time and it's a question I guess as far as Metropolitan Council's
concerned, as to what time ue actually do bring that into the City's urban
service area if ever.
Dave Stockdale: On the page you had on before, it was my understanding that you
were going to try to create a loop from Huron Drive?
Gary Warren: A loop to Huron Drive? With the watermain. The watermain we wiii
be extending the watermain to Huron Drive to complete that but it's not
necessary for sanitary sewer because sanitary sewer we're going to cross Lake
Orive West.
Dave Stockdale: Okay. When you put this up for bids, I assume you set time
limits for construction...if they don't get it done under a certain period of
time? As the property owner I'm concerned about disruption and how long that
will last.
Gary Warren: Yes. The construction is scheduled for this year and the
contractor's, our general specifications and contract documents control to see
that the contractor is proceeding expeditiously with the work consistent with
the weather conditions and everything else that he has to put up with but we
usually have liquidated damages in the contract to enforce those commitments.
Dave Stockdale: Okay, and during that time, accommodations will be made so l
can keep using the road?
Gary Warren: That's correct.
Dave Stockdale: Okay. That's ail z had. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Dave. Is there anyone else? This is a public hearing
as I've mentioned before. Hearing none, is there a motion to close the public
hearing?
Councilwoman Dtmler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to close the public
hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was
closed.
Mayor Chmiel: I have some concerns on this particular project Gary. You know
we're talking roughly if we put in a trail system through that area, we're
talking roughly about another $50,000.00 to have a foot brldge on that existing
bridge. Is that correct?
Gary Warren: The engineer's estimate and I should acknowledge Harald Ertksen is
here from Howard Needles who's worked with us on this. The engineer's estimate
was approximately.
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
Mayor Chmtel: About $52,000.00?
Gary Warren: Right. Just for the foot bridge was $52,000.00. Total trail cost
is estimated with the 30~ overhead at $88,000.00 round numbers.
Mayor Chmiel: So you have a total of $[00,000.00 is what it's indicated in
the...
Gary Warren: $88,752.00 Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Chmiel: The feasibility study on page 3 indicates...free standing, pre-
fabricated corten steel...brtdge over the railroad tracks is estimated to cost
about $100,000.00.
Gary Warren: Yeah, that is if we were to do the corten tubular steel bridge.
We have actually looked at the concrete structure that's out there and a less
costly alternative, although not cheap but the $52,000.00 alternative is to
extend the bridge abutments and the pier caps and not have to do the corten
steel.
Mayor Chmtel: Corten steel would not be considered at this particular time?
Gary Warren: That's correct.
Mayor Chmiel: We are looking at some corten steel with the street lighting?
Gary Warren: Our standard street light in the commercial area is, as we've
affectionately called the shoe box and that is the corten steel that you see
throughout town here. On Lake Orlve East in particular.
Mayor Chmtel: I guess I have some concerns abcmt spending $52,000.00 on that
bridge. I guess you've got to cross it. Is there any other alternatives that
they've looked at?
Gary Warren: Well we've talked with MnOot and we're hopeful that we can slip to
through the same road section out there but unfortunately the bridge is only 44
feet wide and our discussions with MnOot and I don't know Harald if you want to
relay any of your thoughts but basically MnOot has said that it would not be the
safe design or acceptable design to them to include that foot bridge or the foot
path on that road section or bridge section.
Harald Eriksen: I'm Harald Eriksen with HNTB and it's 44 foot face to face at
this time. It wouldn't be safe to let the people cross on that 44 foot roadway
so we did recommend that something was buit on the outside of that guardratl
that's in place right now. It's a continuous 44 foot from one side to the other
side.
Mayor Chmiel: I look at that existing bridge to what we had there previously
and you're lucky to get 2 cars across there at one time. And that's something
that we can discuss here but the other question that ! had was the coat
City Council Meeting - March 26, L990
difference of overlaying the existing road and what about reconstructing of the
road with new reconstruction of the road with curb and gutter or has that even
been considered?
Gary Warren: This would be segment 2?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Gary Warren: The cost would increase proportionately if we would be adding curb
and gutter. At some point in the future that may be appropriate but we
basically looked at the road section. Bid some borings and actually did a road
rater testing of it here 2 years ago and I guess we feel comfortable that that
segment of the road is acceptable for our design at this point in time. We may
have to go to a 3 inch overlay at the worse case but it's still reasonable.
There's adquate enough slde slope dralnage and such, dralnage swales to
accommodate the runoff so we don't have a real driving need to go.
Mayor Chmiel: One or the other things too that I looked at was with the
proposed location of the trail. Of course you indicated on the west side,
because there's some existlng sidewalk, but because of all that residential
development that we have beyond that area, everything would be on the east side
of that street and therefore we would be requiring those people to just cross
that road more so. Wouldn't it more advantageous to keep it on the east side
from a safety aspect?
Gary Warren: I guess for the purposes of the feas£bility study, we wanted to
get the length and the cost tn and we picked up based on the comprehensive map
that Park and Re¢ had, that that was the side basically where we were going to
put the trail and matching it in with this segment on the north but tt'$
certainly something that we can look further on deslgn and see what the
construction challenges are. I don't know, side slopes on the east side, [
thtkn lt's a horse apiece actually for slope easements and such, whether we go
on one side or the other with it.
Harald £rtksen: It's pretty much the same on either stde I think.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that's the way it Looks right now. Okay, any other
discussion?
Councilman 3ohnson: The east slde does make the more sense because the main
purpose of that is to get to Lake Ann. So if you cross the street, go down and
then cross the street again at even a busier sectton of the street, that doesn't
make a lot of sense. How much trails do we have on the west side now? I didn't
realize, are they already constructed or just...
Gary Warren: From TH 5 down to Park Road by public works.
Councilman Johnson: On the west side?
Gary Warren: On the west side.
10
City Council Meeting - March 26, [990
Councilman 3ohnson: ! didn't even realize it was there.
Gary Warren= It was just built [asr year. That's a detat[ that we can
certainly [ook at as a part of the plans and specs. It may make sense as you're
saying to have it on the east side because of the more dense development just in
that last phase of Lake Susan Hills but then it's pretty, much the same as you go
down further south there.
Councilman Johnson: This ts getting kind of far away but on TH 5, is there any
plans for crossings of TH 5? Pedestrian crossings?
Gary Warren: You mean like underpasses or overpasses?
Councilman 3ohnson: Over or underpasses in that area.
Gary Warren: The only underpass that's proposed with the TH 5 improvements
right now is in Eden Prairie just east of here by Mitchell Lake where you go
down.
Councilman Johnson= Yeah. ! know some of the comments on the ElS was why
doesn't Chanhassen get some pedestrian crossings.
Gary Warren: Well MnDot would be very happy to tnclude it if you were
interested in paying $[10,000.00 to $1S0,000.00.
Councilman Workman: Could we extend the TIF district to pay something like
that?
Don Ashworth: Any Improvements ~ould have to be within the district itself.
Counc£lman Johnson: So if we did Lt at CR L7, that's within the district.
Don Rshworth: That's correct.
Mayor Chmie[: Yes.
Councilman Workman: Rudubon won't?
Don Ashworth: I haven't looked at the trail plan lately but my recol[ection is
that it was proposed to have a trail or sidewalk as tt would run from CE 17,
this would be through the business park down to CR 17. There would also be a
leg going up on, is it Park Drive, Park Court.
Gary Warren: Road.
Don Ashworth: That is proposed as a signalized intersection and would be the
same location as the access into, new access into Lake Ann. It's Logical that
any type of a sidewalk system as it would come from downtown, down CR
through the business park and down CR 117 would be a primary means to get down
to the middle school, Chaska area. That's actually shorter-or easier to
accomplish than extending any type of a trail on CE 17 down to Lyman. Once you
11
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
get down into the Lyman area, it's going to be difficult. Going Up that hill,
the severe slopes in there. We felt that if a bikeway trail could occur on
Audubon, it would make an easier connection back down to the Chaska area than
trying to keep something along the entire length of Lyman.
Gary Warren: One of the other factors is the right-of-way out there and l
believe that right now there's a Jog in the road right about Huron Drive or to
the north of Lake Drive West proposed. That would also factor into this as far
as placement of that trail on one side or the other. I believe that one favors
on the west side if I remember correctly where the offset is so if we go on the
east side, we probably would need to acquire additional right-of-way for it. [f
we stay on the west side, probably not.
Counc£1man Johnson: We're already having to acquire right-of-way on the east
side.
Gary Warren: Just to make up the difference. ! don't know the history of it
but there's a jog in the right-of-way width that goes from 66 feet down or from
80 feet down to 63 [ think. There's something goofy right in there and then it
balloons back out.
Councilman Johnson: Kind of like what we had out here?
Gary Warren: Yeah.
Councilman Johnson: There's some goofy right-of-way out here too.
Gary Warren: There's a lot of that stuff around.
Councilman Workman: So Don your concerns, one was the bridge? Whether or not
to expand it yet I'm not sure I understood what you wanted.
Mayor Chmiel: Just the additional cost of the foot bridge on the bridge. That
span would roughly run about $52,000.00.
Councilman Workman: And then our other concern is north as it heads up. The
bridge would be on the west side so then as it heads north, where is it going to
connect up to to the park?
Gary Warren: Well you've got 2 parks here. Maybe Jay I believe ls talking
about the Lake Susan Park.
Councilman Johnson: Lake Ann.
CounciLman Workman: I thought he was talking about Lake Ann.
Gary Warren: You were talking about Lake Ann?
CounciLman Johnson: Yeah.
12
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
Gary Warren: Okay, because there Is a park here tn Lake Susan Hills West PUD
also that we're connecting it.
Councilman Johnson: Right and that would be off of Lake Drive East.
Gary Warren: That's off of Lake Drive West.
Councilman Johnson: Or West, yeah. Which again, if you have a sidewalk on the
west side of CR 17, it doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense. Actually
they would go Internal within their subdivision to get to that park anyway.
Gary Warren: So the park .iii have frontage on Lake Orive West.
Councilman Johnson: Right but I think there's a trail access, if I remember
right. What 3 years ago we platted this thing, going from that park down into
the Lake Susan subdivision that connects with the trails within the Lake Susan
subdivision?
Gary Warren: Yeah, there is a trail netuork there.
Counc£iman Johnson: So the peop[e within Lake Susan aren't going to go out to
CR 17, the oppostte direction from the park to get to the park because the),'ve
got their own trail system to get to the park. The Lake Susan Hills We~t park.
Councilman Workman: Are you talking about Audubon Road or CR 177
Councilman Johnson: Audubon Road, I'm sorry. CR 117. Whatever It is.
Councilman Workman: Because if people get on the west side of Audubon Road,
cross this expensive bridge and go past McGlynn, they're going to run into TH 5
and they're not going to have any way to get under or.over the 4 lane and so
it's going to be kind of a dead end and so I question the use of that. We have
it there already right?
Gary Warren: Right.
Councilman Workman: If they're going to be asked or directed through the park
and up Park Road where there's;going to be an intersection.
Gary Warren: We have showed in the overall trail map that was included in the
packet the last time, there would be a trail proposed on Park Road, the
east/west and then up Park Ortve which goes north up to TH S and that's where
the future one, when TH $ improvements are out here, they're going to require us
to move the entrance to Lake Ann to the east and to this common intersection.
That in my opinion would be an excellent place for the crossing.
Councilman Johnson: So we would only need on the east side'up to Park Road? Up
past public works. At public works we could go then through the industrial park
and up to Lake Ann? Is that what we're saying?-
Gary Warren: Right. The piece that maybe you're questioning is already in.
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
What we would be doing under this project is completing, there's a small segment
south of McGlynn's and north of the railroad trails where the Audubon Court
area, we've been talking about that, has not been built. We have included the
costs in here to complete that connection along with the bridge. And at that
point they could take Park Road and get up through the business park.
Councilman Johnson: 8ut they have to cross Audubon again to do it?
Gary Warren: They'd have to cross Audubon at that point.
Councilman Workman: Can we authorize preparation of plans and specifications
right now and look at in more detat1 the stdewalk agaln which is always our
worry, sidewalks? To figure out maybe tf that makes sense and if we need to
connect up with an expensive brldge there and if we have other alternatives. I
don't know, there's going to be future housing needs maybe to the south and west
that we're not seeing right now that a sidewalk like that, but that's
potentially many years away and if maybe we don't have an expensive sidewalk
heading towards nowhere.
Gary Warren: I should have polnted out earller also that that segment 2 element
of the sidewalk is actually a b£tuminous trail as we've been referring to it so
lt's more meant to be the rural carry you off through the woods type of trail
versus our concrete standard which would be from Lake Orive West north to
connect to the concrete by HcGlynn.
Councilman Johnson: What I'd like them to look at is putting the trail on the
east side up to Park Road and having, if there's going to be a crossing of thls
trail across Audubon, it should be from the HcGlynn's area, from the sidewalk
they have there, crossing to Park Road. If their employees want to walk down to
the park or whatever or walk between places but I can't see taking the
residential people and having them cross Audubon twice to get to Lake Ann Park.
I'd rather not have them cross at all and put the bridge on the east side, if
that's feasible.
Harald Ertksen: The consensus is to keep it on the east side then I belteve?
Councilman Workman: In a rough idea, I don't know. Naybe I'm not seeing
something because they're not going to cross the 4 lane and then from HcGlynn
they're going to cross TH 5 and then they're going to have to either take the
shoulder or go through that gully there and I think we're klnd of pointing
people in a direction there that we don't want.
Councilman Johnson: We bring them up to Park Road where maintenance ts. The
City's maintenance shop. They go east there.
Councilman Workman: Yeah, I'm aware of that. I'm just saying the rest of it up
to the north is probably not what we want to do. I don't know.
Gary Warren: That's already there.
Councilman Johnson: But it's on the wrong side of the road.
14
City Council Meeting - March 26, 19~0
Councilman Workman: ...on the west side versus the east side would be adding
more to something than maybe we shouldn't be doing, that's all.
Councilman 3ohnson: Yeah. 3ust because a chunk of sidewalk's there, it may not
be tn the right place. Rt the time we put it there, it sounded like a good idea
but now it may not be a good idea to connect to it. ! don't even know what the
purpose of that sidewalk on the west side was.
Mayor Chmlel: I think maybe as Tom has mentioned, maybe we authorize the
preparation of plans and specs and exclude the sidewa[k portion at this
particular time until we can come up with some specific cost factors. I'd like
to see something other than a total dollar Investment of $52,000.00 for a foot
bridge across that bridge. I'm sure you probably looked at some of those but
I'd like you to re[ook at tt to see if there are some other feasibilities tn
cost.
Herald Eriksen: Other feasibilities of crossing the railroad?
Hayor Chmiel: Right.
Herald Eriksen= Sure. That's fine.
Counci[woman Oimler: Before we go on I would like, if I may go on to the tax
increment financing portion or did you have something else Gary?
Gary Warren: 3ust a comment as far as'what I would suggest is that as a part
of, some of these are design elements that need to be worked out. Zf Howard
Needles needs to take a closer look, which is part of the design ,here, to see
the construction practicalities of one side versus the other of'that, roadway
so I think it would be appropriate to have them proceed with that-'preliatnary
Investigation as a part of the design. :Not to do. the ftrll'deetgn but some of
their effort and time obviously is going to be involved here. That's beyond the
scope of the feasibility study so the.resoIution-that'$:eeterta%ned for ' -
authorizing plans and specs I think should at least'commission.them to take this
preliminary investigation on. Where we want the sidewalk to go or if we're
going to do it at all.
Mayor Chmie[: Okay.
Councilman Workman: I would so move then.
Councilwoman Oimler: ! Just want to ask one quick question of Don here. You
indicated that the tax Increment financing money may not be available. I'm Just
wondering what time frame here, we.won't know that for a year and tf we go ahead
and authorize this today, what time frame are you looking at here before
anything would occur?
Don ashworth: ! think we'll be able to have the answers within 30 to ~0 days at
this point in time. We have received an answer regarding the a versus B type of
district. We have not received information regarding taxes as they would be
%5
City Council Meeting - March
generated off of the McGlynn site. You're aware with the legislature's delay of
action until way late into 1989, that slowed down the entire tax process this
year and so we're still waiting for a lot of those numbers to be generated.
They should be coming out. We were hoping that we would have the information
for tonight. Assuredly we will have it by the time they bring back the plans
· nd specs.
Gary Warren: Councilwoman Dimler, we are anticipating a May 30th to bring these
plans and specs back to the Council for approval and authorize advertising for
bids so that would give us 2 months basically, as Don had mentioned.
Councilwoman Oimler: So that will come in about the same time.
Don Ashworth: Hopefully. ! mean people have to pay by what, April 15th? It'd
be nice if they got a statement to know what it is they're supposed to be
paying.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, we have a motion on the floor.
Councilwoman Oimler: Second.
Resolution ~..9.0-37: Councilman Workman moved, Council,Dean Oimler seconded to
authorize the preparation of plans and specifications for the ~udubon Road South
Improvement Project No. 89-18. All voted in favor and the motion carrled.
AWARD OF BIDS: TURF/BALL DIAHONO/PARK HAINTENANCE VEHICLE.
Councilman 3ohnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to a~ard the purchase of
one four-wheel truf/ball diamond/Park maintenance vehicle to the flrm of Cushman
Hotor Company, /nc., Htnneapolts, Hinnesota in the amount of $8,458.a0. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
CONSIDER ANIHAL ORDINANCE AHENDHENT REGARDING CLEANING UP AFTER ANIH~LS ON
PUBLIC GROUNDS, FIRST READING.
Mayor Chmiel: Jim, would you like to give a quick overview?
Jim Chaffee: Yes, I'll get my mind back on the meeting here. Mr. Mayor, you
may remember that this was brought up at the last council meeting concerning,
for lack of a better term, a super duper pooper scooper ordinance. I think it
was well received by the Council at the time. There were some concerns
expressed during the meeting that possibly the two prototype ordinances that
were presented may be cleaned up a little bit and presented in a package to the
Council as an ordinance specific to our concerns here in Chanhassen. Rs such,
the City Attorney did draft one. It's been presented to you in this package and
if it is the Council's desire to proceed with this ordinance, then we would
recommend the passage of the ordinance that was drafted by our City Attorney.
Councilman Johnson: I have two questions on this, since I started this whole
thing.
City council Meeting - Hatch 26, 1990
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Jay.
Councilman 3ohnson: One of them ts they continue to put in here that tn your
own yard and your own dog, that you're required to Immediately run out and clean
this up. That is not reasonable In my opinion. E~4aecially if you put the dog
out on the leash at 12:00 at night because he's scratching at the back door.
You're not going to run out behind him in your pajamas and pick up after him.
Z think we can handle a yard where ~omebody never cleans it up and has a bunch
of dogs under our regular nuisance ordinance. This Is really, my focus of this
was when other people's dogs come to my yard and to the sch~l yard and to
Meadow Green Park and wherever and leave behind their deposits and the people
merrily go along. So I'd like to know if the City Attorney here tonight knows
why we have this tn here that you Immediately clean up your own yard. You don't
know?
Elliott Knetsch: No, I can't arrawer that.
Councilman Johnson: Then the other provision that, I'd like to see that somehow
changed. The other provision Is that it does not apply to paved or traveled
portions at public streets or tn the rural undeveloped areas and guide dog,
etc.. ! don't have any problem with the guide dogs. I don't know why a police
dog £s not covered In this. A guide dog I can see why a blind person having a
guide dog would have a little trouble with this provision but most policemen
think can handle this. But I don't see any reason to exempt police dogs other
than it's the police that's kind of doing the ordinance. The other thing
why are we excluding public streets? I mean If a dog doe~ It on the street, I'd
want it cleaned up too. Does this mean we can Just leave It?
Councilwoman OImler: It's In the street where I walk.
Councilman 3ohnson: Yeah. That's where the kids ride their bicycles. With my
kid's luck, that's where he'd crash. So I'd like to see'us eliminate the police
exemption. I mean if you're in hot pursuit of somebody and the dog takes a
rest, I mean you're not going to but the dog's probably not going-to anyway.
Mayor Chmlel: Let's Just move on.
Councilman Johnson: But anyway, I think It's fairly good throughout with those
exceptions of the private property and the exclusion of paved and traveted
portions of public streets. It may.be a liability thing there on that. While
you're working to clean tt up, you get run over or something but you should have
control of your dog to where he's not doing It on the paved part of the street
anyway. So those are my comments.
Councilwoman OimLer: Okay, if I may. I agree with Jay,ii had that same thing
down. Why exclude the police dogs? I don't, see any reason to that and
especially the paved portions of the public street. This.Is exactly what I
would like to see the removal if I'm going to go alon~ wlth this at all. I do
think that perhaps, my feeling Is that this goes along with the noise ordinance
and the snow removal on sidewalk ordinance. It's kind of unenforceable and
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
therefore I think I'm tending to lean towards not having this ordinance.
Councilman Workman: I guess I would agree with Councilwoman Oimler. It's tough
to defend a dog making a mess and having the right to do so anywhere it wants.
I think it's obvious that this issue hasn't got a lot of people worried because
there's not a lot of people here. I don't think all the suits out there are
worried about this. Has Larkin Hoffman been hired?
3ira Larkin: We're talking to a group of dogs tonight.
Councilman Workman: And I have a dog and we discussed that issue about, I'm
really comparing it to the issue that we have an ordinance on the books that
says animals are not, or pets are not allowed in parks and we are not enforcing
that and [ hope we do not because, and maybe that's not ethical for me to say
that, because ['m in violation of it. [ mean there's just not a lot of places
for you to really run a dog that wants to run. The one thing I've really got to
worry about is the, without having in his or her immediate possession a device
for removal of feces. Now when I lived down at Lake Harriet, I had to have a
baggy and a scoop kind of thing or a popsicle stick or something therein. [
don't know really what that means.
Councilman Johnson: Just a bag. That's all it is. All you need is a plastic
bag.
Councilman Workman: Yeah, and I think this kind of idea should be promoted.
I'm kind of on the fence because number one, if it passes, that's fine because I
don't really thlnk lt's golng to be enforced.
Councilwoman Oimler: So why have it?
Councilman Workman: So yeah, on the other hand why have it and why have
something that's not going to, you know what I'm saying? I think it's going to
be very difficult and back to my ortginal point, it's not my lnterest to defend
animals who are defecating on other people's road. So I don't know Jay,
convince me.
Councilman Johnson: Well I don't think that this is an ordinance where we're
going to be sending out our CSO's looking for dogs. If I asked them to go out
to the school at 6:00 in the morning because that's one place we have them. We
have a group of people who like to run their dogs out there every morning but
the only time this would be used and would be enforceable is when somebody
starts creating a problem. Right now we have to go after them under a nuisance
ordinance, or trespassing or something like this and that's impossible. It
really would be tough to go after somebody for their dog trespassing on your
front yard but if they came in and left something behlnd and whatever, you call
the C$0. They could get out there or even if they just saw it. It's also the
first step towards legalizing pets in parks. Many people belleve that pets are
a part of the family. My dogs were a part of our family. We had them for 14
years. We had dogs before we had kids and unfortunately they've all died at
this polnt but we plan on getting more dogs. The kids all want new dogs now
that Lady is no longer with us and they're part of the family. They belong with
18
City Council Meeting - Hatch
the family when the family can go to the park but there are certain
restrictions. [ would not want and it's responsibilities of the owner. Some
owners don't show the responsibility so we need som~ethIng that the people
working tn our parks, tf we do change the ordinance ah[ch i'm for changing the
ordinance on parks but only if we have an ordinance like this where if people
bring their dog into the park, they're responsIb[e for that dog. We have a
neighborhood problem right now with some dogs that ts a responstbility probKem
that's being worked out. A guy's got a leash Long enough to go to 3 yards on
his dog and for some reason the dog never does it in his'own yard. That's a
different problem.
Councilman Workman: What I'm getting at Is with this ordinance
that problem be rectified?
Councilman Johnson: No, but it wouKd glve our enforcement peopKe one more took
by which to work. They don't have the toots right nou. Unless you give them
the tools, you give them the handcuffs, you give them the citations... You kno~
go out and go after our nuisance ordinance but our nuisance ordinance's so
vague, it's tough to enforce. Give them something here that's not vague that ks
enforceabKe to where when they are responding .to a probKem, they can write a
citation. Give our peopKe the tooKs to work-with. -That's ark this ts.
Councilwoman OimIer: I guess I see an enforcement problem in the fact that,
even if some dog did it tn my yard and I couldn't prove who's dog it was even If
I saw the dog do it and the dog ran away, you know the burden of proof would be
on me and I just...
Mayor ChmIel: Let me ask Jim a question. 3tm, with the other cities that have
this spec£f[c ordinances adopted, how much do they really use them? Have you
had discussions with them?
Jim Chaffee= ! have not Mr. Mayor. ! am not familiar with any city cKo~e by
that has an ordinance like this. I'm not saying there Isn't any but I'm not
famlKtar with any. In the instance of Minneapolis a~d I think CounciKmember
Workman can bear this out, they do have a full time park police program that
empKoys many fuKl time police officers similar to what we have community service
officers and they can afford to go out and observe this. I would have to agree
that it would be very dtfficuKt to enforce. What tt does do ts tt gives us a
tool and as CouncIlmember OimKer said, for a homeowner to caKI us and say I Just
observed a dog did hie duty in my yard and I'd like to press charges. Then the
burden of proof wouKd be on that person, on that complaintant to prove who's dog
it was.
Councilman Workman: It wouldn't be enforceable?
Jim Chaffee: It would be very difficuKt~ to enforce. There's a provision in
here that says you must have, while you are tn possession of your dog, you must
aKso have possession of some sort of tool and device. That ~ouId be enforceable
but I don't think it would entirely pr&cttcaK for us to be going checking peopKe
to see if they had these devices, ahatever they may be.
19
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
Mayor Chmiel: I think as I mentioned a couple weeks ago, on Lake Lucy Road a
person had their dog out. They did happen to clean up behind their dog. They
did that automatically. That's great but oftentimes as you do take your dogs
out for a walk, they normally get that exercise and does present a problem but
too, being ['m a dog lover and I only have 2 dogs. It's rather hard to enforce
and rather hard to get out there and take care of those things just like you
mentioned before 3ay. ! guess what Z'd like to do, at this particular time I'm
not sure whether this is really a needed kind of an ordinance within the City.
! think as we grow it may present more of a problem but right now ! don't see it
that much of a problem. I don't know, any other discussion?
Councilman Workman: ! guess ! can see the merits of it but again, without even
being able to enforce it or personally I haven't seen the need. I guess I'd
like to defeat it but with maybe looking at getting more input down the road on
it.
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I have one other comment and that is, I walk with
a friend that has a dog on a leash as we go and she carries just a plastic bag.
Whatever came in it, she went shopping and she has this ltttle, anyway.
I appreciate her doing that and I'm sure everyone else does too. I think maybe
at this point I would like to see us put the Park and Rec to work on putting out
some literature to educate dog owners on how they can do this simply without any
expense. Put our efforts in that area.
Councilman Workman: Should we. send this back to Park and Rec?
Mayor Chmiel: I think that might be a good idea.
Councilman Johnson: One thing you need if we're going to go to Park and Rec.
They're the people that probably put together the restriction no dogs in our
parks. This is one of the reasons for it of course. Like I said a few weeks
ago, my wife and son went out to the elementary school a few years ago after the
snow melted and they filled up I believe 2 bread sacks with what was left after
the snow melted there before the grade school kids got out tnto it. So I think
there is a problem out there. But if we're going to send this to Park and Rec,
we ought to also have them look at what restrictions we need to place on animals
within parks and if we are going to allow that. Right now like you say it's not
being, it's being enforced Z believe at Lake Ann. They're not allowing pets out
there because we've got a guard there. The rest of the parks, unless a CSO goes
by and sees a dog there, he can't tag anybody.
Councilwoman Oimler: I'm not real sure I would want to see us go in the
direction of allowing anlmals In parks and the reason belng that Z know your
animal's a part of your family and your animal's a part of your family but for
famtltes that don't have animals, they don't necessarily like to have another
dog on their picnic and come up to them and bother them. I mean everybody uses
that park, anlmal owners and non-animal owners.
Mayor Chmtei: There's common sense that enters into it.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah, I'm not only talking about the feces but I'm talking
2O
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
about the animal coming up to you, begging for food. Jumping on your kids.
This type of stuff so [ don't think [ want to see animals in parks. [ don't
think that's the reason we should change. Rdopt this to change that.
Councilman Johnson: Well the only way I'd like to see animals in parks is that
they're on a leash. Voice control does not work, especially when they get
chasing a rabbit or a squirrel or your ham sandwich.
Councilwoman Dtmier: Or a little baby.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, I think we've probably discussed this enough.
Councilman Workman: I'd like to move to pass this along to Park and ReiD?
Councilwoman Oimler: No.
Mayor Chmiel: There's a motion on the floor.
councttwoman Otmler: No.
Councilman Johnson: Nobody's motioned anything.
Councilwoman Oimler: I do not second that. I don't see what good it would do.
What they would come up with. It's reaJly a public safety issue.
Mayor Chmiel: To me, I was looking at Jim before, I would think that is more of
a public safety issue rather than a park and re= issue.
Councilman Johnson: Rather than killing this tonight, why don't we give it back
to Jim to talk to other cities, Lakeville and whoever, Burneville.
Councilwoman Oimler: Jim doesn't want it.
Jim Chaffee: It stinks.
Councilman Johnson: Have Deb talk to other cities. #e have our CSO's. I mean
they're the ones that are going to have to be enforcing this and let thee look
into it and see what the problems have been in other cities and whether it's a
useful tool or not.
Mayor Chmiel: Rs I mentioned before, I was asking a question. I would suggest
that we table it at this particular time and have Jim look into it and find out
what the problems are, if any, within other cities or what the pros or cone of
the issue are.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, I've only had one phone call on that.
Mayor Chmiel: I haven't had any.
Councilman Johnson: It was somebody over by Meadow Green Park and she was
disturbed about the dogs In that park.
City Council Meeting - March 26, L990
Councilman Workman: I know that one.
Councilwoman O£mler: Is that a second or is that your motion?
Mayor Chmiel: I'll move it.
Councilman Johnson: I'll second it then.
Hayor Cltmiel moved, Councilman 3ohnson seconded to table action on the Animal
Ordinance /mendment regarding cleaning up after an~mals on public grounds for
the Public Safety Oepartment to gather additions! information. A~! voted in
favor and the motion carried.
CONSIDER ORDZNANCE ~END~ENT ALLOWZNG THE SALE OF CIGARETTES FRO~ BEHIMO THE
COUNTER ONLY.
Don Ashworth: The City Council tabled action on this item at their February
2&th meeting. The Council should not that if you act to approve this ordinance
this evening, that this would be the second and final reading of the ordinance.
There have been no changes since it was considered on February 26th.
Councilman Johnson: Was it tabled on the 26th?
Councilwoman Oimler: Yes.
Councilman Johnson: 50 that would be our first reading? We didn't approve the
first reading, we tabled it.
Mayor Chmtel: Good question. First reading said a month which Is right at this
time.
Councilwoman Oimler: ! think it had approval once.
Mayor Chmiel moved and Councilman Workman seconded to table action.
Councilman Johnson: But I think on February /2th we may have considered it and
we approved the first reading and February 26th was the second reading. So this
would be the second, second reading.
Oon Ashworth: Well you tabled it.
Councilwoman Dimler: We tabled the second reading but we did have approval of
the first reading.
Mayor Chmiei: ! know that there's a lot of people sitting in the audience this
evening and who may want to address the particular issue and I wish you would
but if there's something different than what you had indicated previously from
the last meeting, step forward and state your name and your basic concerns on
t he issue.
22
City Counc£l Meet£ng - March 26, ~990
Councilman 3ohnson: Mr. Mayor? Do you think it'd be helpful tf the members of
the Council who are here tonight, the four of us of course, said where they're
sitttng at this point. [f we've had any changes tn thought or if we're in the
same position we were a month ago to help the speakers before they start?
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe that might not be a bad idea Jay. I think that probably
would be an advieeable thing. Seeing that you started it, do you want to
continue?
Councilman Johnson: There you go. Second tn a row after the pooper scoopers.
Here we go for this one. I really haven't changed much In my opinion here.
kind of tn a minority I believe tn that I started this and I still think that
remotely controlled devices on the large displays of cartons is feasible and
enforceable and a useful device. I see the smaller displays as more of a
problem then the large displays but as the Industry representative said last
meeting, there are those devices out there. They're not sure about what the
effectiveness are but I'd like to work this down to where those were allowed on
the displays such as at SuperAmertca that have a substantial Investment in that
display. But otherwise, I don't see it as being very restrictive at all when
you look at the counter displays and requiring the counter displays to be
operated by the employees versus by the customer. R lexan or plex[glas shield
in front of the counter display. It's still there. It's still seen. The
person can say I want that and the employee grabs it and hands It to thee.
think it sends a good message to people that this ts a controlled, more
controlled. It's not actually a controlled substance but it,s being treated in
this town as a controlled substance. So that's where I sit which la pretty much
the same as where I was before.
Hayor Chmiel: Yeah. You haven't changed your position. Okay. Thank you.
Ursula?
Councilwoman Otmler: ! guess I'd like to go back a little bit to our vending
machine ban for cigarettes and why [ was tn favor of that and that was because
we were dealing with the sale of cigarettes to minors and our purpose there was
to help enforce the state law. #hat [ see with this ordinance now that we are
dealing with a shoplifting of cigarettes and there's already a law against
shoplifting so [ guess [ do not see a need for this ordinance at this time.
still think that our Intent was good. ! think that we may be going too far when
we try to legislate promotion and advertising and I believe that this should be
the choice of the individual retailer. I do have qualms about marketing
strategies that target our young people to get them to start smoking but again
don't think this is an area that it is our Jurisdiction to legislate. I don't
want to leave the Impression that I believe that shoplifting of.cigarettes is
not a problem or [s no longer a problem but as ! said before, the shoplifting is
already against the law and I think we need to be more watchful and do some
enforcing. The Grocer's Association members that were here.the last time
Indicated that they would work with us tn prohibiting the sale and the
shoplifting of cigarettes by minors. I have already seen some Improvements in
some of the stores tn town as far as sIgnage Is concerned and [ believe there
other Improvements that they've indicated that they want to help us make so
hope that we will continue to work together to meet these objectives and that we
do not have to pass this ordinance.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Tom?
23
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
Councilman Workman: ! wonder if what Ursula isn't saying is being sugar coated
in a sense that if we try to pull this, we're ending up in court and we're going
to spend a lot of money. Get sued and lose and everything else. Ursula says
things better than I maybe. I believe in what Ursula says. I'm glad that we're
speaking on this before the retailers are because for fear of nauseousness in
listening to the retailers defend the sale of cigarettes maybe we can cut them
off at the pass. I think the tobacco industry is hiding behind the retailers. 1
had a meeting with Mr. Larkin and the attorney for the tobacco institute.
They're definitely in our midst and they definitely have an impact on this
situation and I think they'd be ready to hang our necks no matter what kind of
public good we're looking at here and on behalf of the citizens of Chanhassen
that's unfortunate but unfortenateiy the citizens of Chanhassen probably are not
interested in taking on the tobacco institute with their millions and billions
and everything else and so that's a difficult. It's not a difficult decision
when you look at what the City's going to have to do to defend keeping this
product away from our minors against retailers and the tobacco industry who
choose to want to do that. I continue to urge the retailers to look carefully
at the way their marketing their cigarettes. Rs long as I'm alive and walking
on this planet I'm going to be after that product. Call it a commitment. R
lifetime commitment if you uill in my efforts to curb the legislature from pre-
empting our cigarette vending ordinance. ! met an awful lot of like minded
people down there. I'm only half as anxious compared to some of these people so
the legacy of death and dying creates new Tom Workmans to fight this product.
It's unfortunate that the people have 20X to 30~ of their retail sales tied up
in it because I believe there's a lot of people out there and units of
government, city, state and federal that are going to be looking a lot closer at
this issue and are going to make ground steadily. I think Chanhassen, and 3ay I
think your idea is an outstanding one. I've told you that. It's like nuclear
power, it's a little early. So I would like to pass this ordinance. I don't
think the tobacco industry's going to let us and that's not fear. That's smart
and ! don't think we can pass it.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. I too would like to see us pass the ordinance
and I pretty much feel like Tom does. There's no sense in throwing good money
after bad or vice versa. Rlthough I would like to make a plea to the owners of
businesses within our community that do sell cigarettes. Some way to get these
back in and off from those specific areas where that avaiIablIity to these kids
who are stealing them and sure, keeping a watchful eye but you can't watch them
ali at all given times so I'd ask you to police yourselves and to work with the
City to eliminate a iot of the given problems. Rs we've said, we don't have
objections to peopIe smoking. That's their perogative. I was a former smoker.
Our major concerns are the people that are of under age and there has been too
many within the City. I had a few more minutes this evening before coming to
the Council meeting. I saw two young kids walking along the road smoking
cigarettes. It disturbed me just to see that. I don't like it. We're teaching
them a habit. R habit that eventually is within the State of Minnesota 4,500
deaths have occurred because of smoking each year. Look at it over the nation.
Those kinds of happenings, what happened with accidents on highways, we'd all be
walking rather than driving cars because they'd restrict our speed limits more
and more. So I guess I go back to you with that particular appeal is to help us
help ourselves and help the future of our nation and our community to eliminate
that accessibility for these kids to grab onto cigarettes. So with that I'd
like to throw it open for a motion.
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
Councilman 3ohnson: Do we want to hear from the public that's here?
Mayor Chmiel: I made that offer if anyone cared to address. Mr. Larkin.
Jim Larkin: It will be less than 30 seconds ! believe. I will only repeat the
offer of Mr. Hoiland that was made at the last meeting that the Minnesota
Grocer's Association and their members in. the Chanhassen community will
cooperate with the City. They've offered to do everything in their power to
further prevent the possibility of minors stealing cigarettes from their
merchants. It's of course in their self interest and Z think that we may not be
concerned that they will cooperate with you. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else? Seeing none..
Councilman Workman: Mr. Mayor, I would denial of ordinance amendment.regarding
limiting the sale of tobacco to behind the counter only at this time.
Councilwoman Dimler: Second.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dlmler seconded denla/ of Ordinance
~mendment allowing the sale of cigarettes from behind the counter only at this
tim~.I All voted in favor except Councilman 3ohnson who opposed and the motion
carried with a vote of 3 to 1.
~NSZVE PLAN AHENDflENT TO RELOCATE THE HETROPOLITAN URBAN S[RVI~ NEA
(HULA) LTNg ON LAKE LUCY ROted).
Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, in January staff became aware of a failing on site
sewer off of Lake Lucy Road. The Public Safety Oepartment investigated it. Gave
the owners some time to conform to it...resolution to the problem. The area in
question is located immediately adjacent to and outside of the current MUSA line
and is well within the area that we're considering bringing in with the major
guide plan amendment. The owner and staff agreed that it would be rather futile
to require the replacement of this on-site sewer system with another on-site
system since it's going to be relatively short lived.. In addition, the location
of the current system sort of precludes the easy ability of replacing it since
it was positioned apparently according to the owner, for eventual hook-up to
sanitary sewer sometime in the mid-70's or in the 70's when it was originally
installed. That being the case, the owner and the person who was adjacent to
him to the east have petitioned the City to go through a guide plan amendment to
allow them to hook up to the sanitary sewer which is located a short distance to
the east. Staff supports the proposal. We believe that it's going to take care
of a problem that we have right now and can be done with very minor impact on
the MUSA system or on our comprehensive plan. It's recommended that the
Planning Commission approve this item and send it to you. The Planning
Commission reviewed it and has done so. They did ask however that in the past
the Metro Council has occasionally required the deletion of a comparable amount
of acreage, 10 acres in this case from the HUSA system if parcels such as this
were brought in under an emergency basis. Staff and the Planning Commission
agreed, felt that this was highly inappropriate given the fact that we don't
have 10 acres to give up and we are processing our major guide plan amendment.
So with that we are recommending it be approved.
25
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
Mayor Chmiel: I would make a motion that we approve this.
Councilwoman Oimler: I'll second.
Councilman Johnson: Thlrd.
R.e.s~ut_JLO_CL_JL~.gc.~_~_L.' tlayor Chmiel moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to approve
Land Use Plan Amendment Request t90-1 to include properties located at 1420 and
1430 Lake Lucy Road into the Hetropolitan Urban Service Area and that the
Netropo]ltan Urban Service Area line be amended to include said parcels subject
to the following conditions:
Approval by the Netropolitan Council.
2. If the Hetropolttan Council requires that comparable acreage be deleted from
the HUSA system, the request Hill be returned to the Planning Commission for
reconsideration.
voted In favor and the motion carried.
PROPOSED AHENDHENT TO THE CITY COlE REQUIRING THAT RECYCLABLES BE TAKEN TO
RECYCLING CENTERS AND NOT TO LANDFILLS, FIRST AND SECOND READING.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'd move approval.
Councilman Workman: Second.
Mayor Chmtel: Paul, did you want to say something?
Paul Krauss: We did hand out tonight a modification of that ordinance that
deals with the abllity to suspend or revoke a 11cerises through the Ctty Manager.
We would ask that that be considered as well or as part of this package.
Mayor Chmiel: Right. That is part of the package with those revisions to the
ordinance.
Councilwoman Dlmler: Right.
Councilman Johnson: Do we need to waive our rules to do this or can we just do
it as one motion?
Mayor Chmiel: We have it 11sted as first and second readtng. I don't know tf
we have to waive our rules or not because it's indicated. Does our Attorney
agree?
[lliott Knetsch: Yes.
Mayor Chmlel: Thank you.
Councll#oman Dimler moved, Councilman Morkman seconded to approve the first and
second reading of Ordinance Amendment to Section 16-32 aith the modification as
handed out by the Plann/ng Director. Al! voted in favor and the motion carried.
26
City Council Meeting - March 26, Z990
SET SPECIRL HEET/NG OaTE, JOINT HEET/NG BEllJEEN THE CITY COUNC/L ~ND HOUSTJIG ~
REDEVELOPMENT RUTHORZTY.
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe Don can address t~is real quick.
Don Rshworth: I was looking to a work session. You're aware of a number of
development proposals and I know that Councilwoman Oimler and Councilman Johnson
will not be at that meeting. ~.::
Councilman Johnson: Could we do it a little earlier?
Don ashworth: That's a possibility.
Councilman Johnson: If it's 6:30 to 7:30, then Ursula and I can walk 20 feet to
our other meeting.
--.
Councilman Workman: Oh your meeting's, here?
Councilman Johnson: Yeah. This year the Transit Commission meets here.
Mayor Chmiel: [ might even listen to it. What time does your meeting start?
Councilwoman Oimler: 7:30.
Mayor Chmtel: What about if we had It at 6:30? I think we can accomplish that
within the hour.
Councilman Johnson: Well Tom has some conflicts ! believe.
Mayor Chmiel: Do you have a conflict?
Councilman Workman: No. I'm just trying to get a handle on the nature of the
meeting. Now the paper's published that it would be done last Thursday I think
and now. The Sailor did?
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, because Cliff was not available.
Councilman Workman: The Sailor had big headlines. And let me re-emphasize that
this issue is one of, it's kind of getting confused with a couple of issues and
Don Ashworth and I talked about this today a little bit. Two issues being one,
HRA control and accountability and then there's the other one of TIF and people
want, ! don't know tf people are getting that confused or not with HR~ and TIF
and are they separate or aren't they separate? And are we misspending money or
is there an accountability problem and that's what a lot of the confusion is
based on and so if the public is interested in this, they should be notified and
given enough time to be notified perhaps. Who will that be up to and how will
this meeting get promoted? That's why-I was wondering initially if maybe it
should be done at a City Council meeting when people are usually expecting us to
discuss these things. I don't know. I'm opening this for discussion.
Councilwoman Oimler: I guess I have a question of Don too. And does. it require
a public hearing? If and when we make the motion that the Council become the
MRA, does that require a public hearing?
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
Don Ashworth: Not that I'D aware of.
Councilman Johnson: It requires all the HRA people to resign and provide the
openings.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that's part of it.
Councilwoman Olmler: But the public doesn't need to be present? But the public
can be present if they want to put some lnput.
Don Ashworth: Your rules of procedure say that you're going to make sure the
newspaper ls aware of meetings that are coming up. My lntent for the meetlng on
Thursday night was basically you talk about what's happening with the State
legislature. What we're trying to accomplish here withln the next 30 day period
of time. What major development activities are occurring within the community
and how ls it that the Council and the HRA would see us moving forward with
those and potentially start to talk about some of the issues that Tom was
talking about.
Councilman Workman: So a work session more or less?
Oon Ashworth: Right.
Councilman Workman: That's what I'D just trying to get a handle on the nature
because then eventually we should get that out a little bit more.
Don Ashworth: And I was not looking to really any type of decisions. Stmply to
make the Council and HRA aware of some of the issues that are in front of you.
Mayor Chmiel: Rather tham, I don't think &:30 would glve us enough. Maybe we
should be at 6:00.
Councilman Workman: 5:30-6:00?
Councilman Johnson: Are we going to discuss the real issue that's probably on
all of HRA's mlnds right now, Tom's idea...
Councilman Workman: That seems to be part of it, yeah.
Mayor Chmiel: That would be part of it too but I think some of the work session
portion with what's happening in the legislature as to what's happening with the
projects that we've got going ls another 1rem that has to be discussed.
Councilman Workman: W£L1 there be HRA decisions to be made? Is there going to
be an HRA meeting?
Don Ashworth: I don't have any agenda items that are proposed to go to the HRA.
I Just received the settlement agreement on the Pauly property. This is where
we were in court and we made agreement and what not. That has been placed in
writing. Whether or not I get that back in time to present it to the HRA or
not, ! don't know.
Councilwoman Oimler: If it's a work sesslon and the public wants to come and
address both the HRA and the Counctl, can they come?
28
City Council Meeting - March
Mayor Chmlel: Oh sure. Why not?
Counc£lman Johnson: It's an open meeting.
Don Ashworth: If you'd rather do this let's say a week from Thursday, that's
fine as well. I'm kind of concerned with again some of the legislation.
Mayor Chmiel: I think we have to address it from the legislative aspect right
now.
Don Ashaorth: If we simply put items out on the table. Here are some things
that need to be addressed within the next 30, &O days and then set another
meetlng where the issue as to is the HRA Involved tn this or ts this Ctty
Council or not, I would see that as being a part of the next agenda. Not really
the one for Thursday night but that's up to you.
Councilman Workman: I think this Is a good step.
Mayor Chmiel: Let's do it this coming Thursday.
Councilman Workman= Is the earlier time going to be agreeable?
Councilwoman Dimler: Is it at &:O0?
Mayor ChmIel: Do you want to start at 5:307 &:O0? It doesn't matter to me.
Councilman Workman: Me either.
Councilman Johnson: Get there at 5:30 and then it's tough to get any dinner.
Mayor Chmtel: Let's see if we can get the other members at 5:30 and tell them
that you're buying pizza or something.
Councilman Workman= Maybe 5=007 Whenever. 5=00, 5:30, &:O0.
Councilwoman Olmler= 5=30.
Councilman Workman= Maybe we can get a convenience store to bring over a carton
of cigarettes.
Mayor Chmlel= ! don't think tt should be any later than 5=30-6=00. Whichever
is convenient and just let us know.
Councilwoman Dlmler= Let's do it at 5=30.
Don Ashworth: WhttehIl[ will probably have the most problem getting here too
early.
Mayor Chmiel= Okay, that might be a problem but see what you can work out. We
don't need any specific action on that.
City council Meeting - March 26, 1990
APPOZNTNENTS TO THE BOARO OF ADJUSTNENTS AND APPEALS.
Counciluoman Oimler: Mr. Mayor, I move Willard Johnson and Carol Watson to be
appointed to the Board of Adjustments and Appeals for the next 12 months.
Councilman Workman: I'll second it.
Mayor Chmiel: Dld you second it?
Councilman Workman: Yes sir.
Mayor Chmiei: Oh great. I was going to second it but you got there a little
quicker than I did. I think we need somebody to be a back up for Jay.
Councilman Johnson: We can vote on that too.
Councilman Workman: I move the Mayor.
Councilman Johnson: I'll second that.
Mayor Chm£el: I was going to say and I've done it before and I think I probably
should do it again.
Councilman Johnson: Well you were it last year. I just kind of thought they'd
continued.
Mayor Chmiel: That's probably true but just make sure you're going to be there.
Councilman Johnson: It's not just for me. It's for Carol or any of us.
Mayor Chmiel: No, I agree.
Councilwoman O£mler: Okay, with the Mayor as a back-up.
Hayor Chmiel: Okay, so we have a motion on the floor with a second to reappoint
Willard Johnson and Carol Watson and Mayor Chmiel as a back-up to Councilmember
Johnson.
Councilwoman Dialer moved, Councilman Workman seconded to reappoint Willard
3ohnson and Carol Watson and Hayor Chaiel as a back-up to Councilaeaber 3ohnson.
All voted In favor and the motion carried.
1990 BUDGET AHENDHENT REGUEST TO FUND ASSISTANT CITY END[NEER'S POSITZOfl AND
ENGZNEERZNG FZLE CLERK POS/T/ON.
Gary Warren: At the workshop session last Monday we chatted a little bit about
the engineering request here for funding the Assistant City Engineer's positton
which is included in the pay comp plan. The position is, this year was not
funded beoause we were anticipating utilizing contract services, particularly
the Alan Larsen as we had last year to bas£cally staff that position. My review
of the situation and from a continuity and just 1n-house handllng of projects
and residence, I believe that the City can better spend it's money by
considering fundlng the Assistant City Engineer's position agaln as we had
30
City Council Meeting - Hatch 26, [990
funded here a couple years ago. Basic conclusion or how ! reached that
conclusion is that I believe we can save potentially some dollars on the fees
that we spent last year which were approxlaately $S0,000.00 in R[an's time and
sia£[ar[y have an in-house person here to get Involved with some of the other
areas that we're trying to branch out tn which are going to take continued
effort from our staff here. That being pavement management for'one. Our storm
water plan effort for iuD. As some of you have seen Oave Hempel has been kind '
enough and wlll£ng enough to support ae here in Council meetings which actually
are somewhat outside of his real duties as a senior engineering technician and
Dave does a good job at that but really it should be the Rsststant City Engineer
who's working with the developers and negotiating the plans and specifications
and making reports here to the Council. That'd be included as a part of his
salary. Whereas now we're paying Oave overtime for those situations.
Similar[y, the engineering clerk/typist position as I've identified
Meuwissen, our department secretary here is doing an excellent job-in trying to
keep up with the raft of paper that we're generating here but it's Just getting
overwhelming and she, ! Just left her office tn fact this evening with, I. mean
there's at least 2 feet of paperwork that the filing Is the last thing to be
done and It's just not the way that I am comfortable with doing business here.
We have checked internally with our cLer£cal ~ool to see if we can share people
and it's the same in the other departments. So we took a look here at the
position to get her some support. At this point in time. from a funding
standpoint Council had asked me to take a look at that. I believe that because
we've been bringing the park maintenance worker and the utility worker here on
staff a little bit later than what was intended in the budgeting scenario, we
basically have some funds that have not been spent on those positions which
could fund this clerk typist position in the Interim here until we can look at a
readjustment as a part of the formal budget readjustment in August, or later
this year. So with that preliminary discussion, my recommendation and request
is that the Council consider funding the Assistant City Engineer's position and
also funding and establishing the Engineering Clerk/Typist-position as stated tn
my memo.
Mayor Chmtel: Thank you. Any discussion?
Councilwoman Dialer: Yes. I have a few questions of gary. You're talking here
about establishing another position. We're not moving Oave Hempel? Oave is the
project engineer? Will remain a project engineer?
Gary Warren: Dave ts a Senior Engineering Technician and has been filling the
duties basically of the Assistant City Engineer. It turned out when we had
Initially been hiring, weL! we Initially hired the Assistant City Engineer 2
years ago I guess it was. Larry Brown was here. We had difficulty even at that
time finding good engineering graduates who had municipal experience for the pay
rate that we were advertising at. So we made an adjustment to naturally Look to
hire Dave because of his good municipal background and having exposure to
engineering in his technical area. Oavid Is not a registered PE and does not
have the credtttals of an engineer formally, so we fell back and I said,
aLr~ght. If you can't get your ultimate, at Least we needed to get somebody in
here that could help with some of the work and Oave has done an admirable job in
that regard. But we still have an underlying need for some more engineering
taIent. It doesn't haven't to be a full registered PE at this time but
definitely an engineering training certified with a college degree to deal with
the storm water drainage Issues and things that we're getting into at this time.
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, so you've just described the qualifications of the
person. Do you have anyone in mind?
Gary Warren: No. I would propose that we advertise like we do for our City
positions.
Councilman Workman: Could it potentially be Alan?
Gary Warren: Alan is not a registered engtneer either. Alan is a technician.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, and Alan, we would no longer need his servlces then?
Gary Warren: That's correct. At this point in time, in fact I have requested
that a lower level Inspector, I mean lower pay level inspector be responsible
for filling the construction inspection duties. I haven't had any beefs so to
speak nor do I want to invlte any from our developers but as you are aware, we
are billing that inspection time directly to them and Alan's rate is on the
upper end of the range. I belleve that in fairness to the developers that we
can get a more construction oriented inspector who doesn't have all of the
background that Alan had wlth office work and such.
Mayor Chmiel: But you're saying we can almost get 2 for the price of 17
Gary Warren: Two-thirds maybe.
Councilwoman Oimler: Okay, but you are talking about along with this hiring a
clerk/typist at about $10,000.00.
Gary Warren: That's correct.
Councilwoman Dimler: So that really puts the price tag up to about $60,000.00
because when you take 40 plus the 10 for benefits, insurance and so forth and
then another 10 for the typlst, you're talklng 60 compared to 40.
Gary Warren: I'm proposing that the Assistant Engineer's position would be
funded out of the Admlnstratlve Trust where we have the $&O,O00.O0 that we
budgeted this year for engineering consultant services. The services for the
clerk/typist would be funded out of the surplus, if you want to call it that,
that has existed from the various departments where we had slotted for example
the utlllty maintenance worker which ls In the budget for hlrtng this year. We
haven't hired a person yet. We had estimated they would be on January I of this
year. They're probably going to be on April lSth so there's basically 4 1/2
months that we haven't spent so I'm looking, not to fund the clerk/typist out of
the adminstratlve trust fund but lnstead out of the other uttlity funds where we
had budgeted for these people starting earlier.
Councilwoman Dimler: Do you anticipate asking for a car for this Individual?
Gary Warren: No. There would be pool cars available to those.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay and being that we're so close to the budget process,
why wasn't this anticipated just 3 or 4 months ago?
32
City Council Heeting - Hatch 2&, [990
Gary Warren: Well, as I tried to explained earlier, in Alan's situation we had
thought that, we put it together and I didn't have the final tally for, because
we started the budget process earlier this year tn light of the tax law changes.
I didn't have the total dollar impact of Alan for the year until after that and
It was at that time that I said well geez, does this make sense. Couldn't we do
better for our money by staffing a full year in-house position Instead of a
partial year? Alan was very good and helpful'but he's not a city employee that
was here all the time so that was basically that. And then as far as the clerk/
typist position, I guess it's just my secretary Kim came to me and just, she's
Just really, the stress that she's been putting up with and most of the
adminstrattve staff up here, just is not appropriate to the position that she
has there. She just needs the help.
Councilwoman Oimler: Do you have office space available?
Gary Warren: Yeah we do. We don't have a luxury of space but we are looking at
moving the temporary partition that exists in engineering right now. There's a
corridor there that we've agreed isn't serving a useful purpose there so there's
some good space there that we would look to acquire plus we do have one space
right now that we're sharing with the Planning department that Is open where
Alan used to occupy.
Councilwoman Oimler: Okay, thanks.
Hayor Chmiel: I guess I have one specific question. Being that we haven't put
this in the budget and even though you're indicating there are some dollars,
what would be your opinion of hiring a temporary to come in and to assist with
the filing for a period of the balance of this year the & or 8 months or
whatever it might be?
Councilman Johnson: Part time?
Hayor Chmiel: Part time on benefit kind of individual.
Gary Warren: Hr. Hayor, that basically ts what I am showing in the staff report
ts that we would bring this person in with the understanding that it ts a
temporary full time position during the next & months which is our peak
construction period and such and that we would look to justify it at the end of
that period as a part of the formal budget re-estimate in August or there abouts
when that is done so that it would come back for Council's review at that time
to see whether we can basically support the position or not.
Councilman Johnson: Do we still have somebody doing what Alan's been doing? I
mean I don't see the Assistant Engineer going out and doing construction
inspection.
Gary Warren: The Assistant Engineer really never did do construction inspection
per se except on a complaint type basis or spot check type basis. Alan
basically has filled that role for the most part. Oave ts filling tn on pre-
construction meetings as we speak right now and is serving in that role but we
will be brining on the inspector here. The projects are starting to fire up and
the private development work will probably be geared up here in the next month
or two, especially when the road restrictions come off here tn late Hay.
33
City council Heet£ng - Hatch 26, 1990
Councilman Johnson: You say bringing on the inspector. What do you mean?
Gary Warren: That's the contract inspector that basically.
Councilman Johnson: Like what Alan's been doing?
Gary Warren: Right. But at a lower rate.
Councilman Johnson: So those monles are still going to be there but less of
them. Those are passed directly along anyway.
Gary Warren: That's correct.
Councilman Johnson: So this money ts for, that they're using is for other
projects that we thought we would be using consultants for? I can see some
confusion there.
Gary Warren: Covering the same bases but we budgeted $60.000.00 for engineering
consultant services under 208 for various projects. Very much similar to the
work that Alan had done. State Aid tracking. Special study on Frontier Trail
for access.
Councilman Johnson: So Alan had done those also?
Gary Warren: The $50,000.00 that we spend on him, that was just one part of
what we spent on hlm and that was related strictly to engineering department
support. Not any inspection. His inspection services last year were a whole
other, ! don't have the total dollar amount but that was bllled dtreotly to the
developers.
Councilman Johnson: I know a PE out of work.
Gary Warren: Send me his resume.
Councilman Workman: So what's our net extra expenditure?
Gary Warren: I'm proposing under the current scenario that would be
accommodated wlthln the extsting budget, just pulling it out of different
departments bas£cally.
Councilman Workman: I mean getting rid of Alan and putting somebody else on.
Gary Warren: That's correct.
Councilman Johnson: Well Alan will no longer be dolng these functions but the
other person w111 be comlng on wtll be doing a different function that wasn't
part of this budget.
Gary Warren: The Assistant City Engineer would be picking up the duties and
then some that Alan had done as far as engineering department stuff. Not
inspections.
Councilman Johnson: You know when Larry was here, it was really helpful. Larry
Brown. I think this is really a needed position here, especially through the
34
City Council Meeting - March 26, [990
high development months. T know there had been Sunday afternoons that Larry was
out with hay bales, moving hay bales around at Lake Susan trying to prevent
sediment into Lake Susan. Things like that. Up and beyond.
Councilman Workman: We're talking about a guy who's Just graduated from
college?
Gary Warren: Actually no. Somebody that's got at least a few years of
municipal experience.
Councilman Workman: Is $40,000.00 reasonable?
Gary Warren: Too low?
Councilman Workman: No.
Mayor Chmiel: I think it's too high.
Coucilman Workman: I may be going to engineering school at night.
Gary Warren: I think in looking at the Stanton Report and just I guess on the
street here with other and the experience we've had wlth hiring or trying to
hire the talent that we need here, I would say that something, I would hope to
be able to establish the position or the new hire at say the mid-thirties but
certainly in that range. I say 40 In the staff memo as if It took to 40, that
with the overhead and such, that comes out to the SO so we're no worse off than
if we were using Alan for that same situation but we could go up to that point
and still be ahead of the game. I would be hoping to acquire somebody in the
mid-thirties.
Councilman Johnson: You better have a PE If you want to give him 40.
Gary Warren: Well believe me, it's difficult. Now maybe the timing is better
here with the fact that development is somewhat Indefinite but to find the
talent. Experienced talent was really tough the last time.
Councilman Johnson: There's some real competition for engineering out there
right now. I know in my field, I was amazed at the sa[aries. I thought the
guys that worked for me were almost above what, when I came on they were already
working there and I was surprised at how much they were paid and then they got
hired away at bigger sa[aries by other consulting firms. So the money's out
there In engineering right now.
Councilman Workman: It's just one of those things that we think you've been
doing a great job In getting it done and now we're making kind of a move and
don't have really any way of, other than your word which Is good at fine
restaurants I'm sure and so that's why I Just get a..little nervous making a
decision of a permanent posttlon and the long term commitment and everything
else like that. So [ don't have a whole lot to say no, we don't need one so.
Mayor Chmlel: Well I think you know how frugal I get with dollars and in
reviewing this, I know that as we're growing the need basically gets there. To
eliminate a certain portion of extra dollars, I was looking at getting 2 for the
price of [ with a temporary to come in for the balance of the year and depending
35
City Council Meeting - March 26. 1990
upon how we continue, and we may have to have a secretary as an additional or
fillng clerk I should say, to do that filing.
Councilman Workman: 2 for the price of 1 on engineers?
Mayor Chmiel: No, I'm talking getting the engineer and also the filing clerk
for the same prices that we're already paytng. $50,000.00...
Councilman Workman: But he's looking for someone with a little more experience.
Are you tatktng for someone for maybe $30,000.007 $35,000.00 maybe?
Gary Warren: I think that before a final or an offer would be consummated to an
applicant, the question ls ralsed obviously by people applying, what's the
salary range and that probably affects some of them as far as whether they apply
or not. But before we entertain an offer to those individuals, lt's something
that certainly can be presented to the Council to show. I've got no personal
interest except my own sanity to get some help here as to what they're going to
make but I think there's an opportunity here to advertise for candidates
thinking along the mtd-30 range and then to see what the qualifications and the
mlnlmum salary requirements are of these people before we make the final
conclusion on lt.
Councilwoman Oimler: I guess I would like to see you offer a lower salary
that's still legal to begin with and you can always move up. My concern is
you're golng to get a college graduate without any experience or very little
experience because anyone who's really good is not going to want to be the
assistant. They're going to go out and look for your posltion in another clty.
Mayor Chmiel: They could be just a project engineer too and this would be a
move up for them.
Councilman Johnson: For his position they're going to have to have the
engineering license so if you've got somebody who's near to having the
engineering 11cense. They've got thelr engineering and tralnlng certification
and they are within a year of the license or maybe even somebody who's Just
barely gotten their license. That would be the person that you're looking to
make 30.
Councilwoman Dimler: So you're talking about somebody who's transient though
and is not going to want that as a permanent position.
Councilman Johnson: That's what all assistants are aren't they?
Gary Warren: Well it's certainly a way of life in not only public but in
private sector the fact that people do come In and serve sort of an
apprenticeship and move on as opportunities and their skllls develop and such
and that's not necessarily unhealthy ! don't thlnk.
Councilwoman Oimler: No, I don't either but I'm just saying $40,000.00 is a
11ttle high for an apprenticeship I think.
Gary Warren: Well again, I guess I put that number out as a comparable
evaluation point to say if we could spend up to $40,000.00 and st111 break even
with what we paid last year for Alan's time. I'm certainly agreeable and intend
36
City Counc£1Heet~ng - Hatch 26, 1990
to negotiate and to get the best talent for the dollar tn the etd-30 range if it
has to be in that range. I'm not look£ng to have to spend $40,000.00 If we can
get the talent that we need belo~ that rate.
Hayor Chm~el: tiny other discussion? If not, Z would entertain a motion.
Councilman Workman: I moue approval of the Assistant City Engineer's position
and engineering file clerk position.
Hayor Chmiel: Re a temporary?
Councilman 3ohnson: Second.
Councilman Workman: as a what?
Hayor Chmiel: Rs a temporary?
Councilman 3ohnson: Full time temporary position. That's what he's proposing.
Gary Warren: That's ~hat's ~n this report.
Councilman Workman: Full time temporary meaning?
Gary Warren: They're working 40 hours a week but it's a temporary position for
the next 6 months and ~e'll be re-evaluated with the City's budget re-estimate.
Hayor Chmlel: Temporary £s al~ays permanent or vice versa.
Councilman 3ohnson: A lot of times.
Resolution ~0-3~: Councilman #orkean moved, Counc/lean 3ohneon~~ to
adjust the 1990 budget to fund the ~tant Ctty Engineer's position a~ a fret!
time pereanent position ulth funding to be provided from the adelnetratlve Trust
fund In the aeount of $50,000.00; and to adjust the budget for an Eng~neerLng
Clerk/Typist position as teeporary full t/so tn the aeount $9,500.00 until the
budget re-estleate 1~ perforeed In Rugust to establish the po~tlon as a full
t/me permanent poe/t/on. ~11 voted* in favor and the eot/on carried.
FZNALZZE POSITION CL~SSZFZCAT/ON Alii) P~Y COI'N)E#SAT]:ON PLRN.
Oon Rshworth: .The Hayor and I have been trading phone calls. ! wou/d suggest
tabling this item to our next meeting.
Counclleoean Oieler eoued, Councilman 3ohneon seconded to table ftneliztng the
position classification and pay coepenaatlon plan until the next eeet~ng.
voted in favor and the eotlon carried.
COUNCZL PRESENTATZONS:
Hayor Chmtel: I would like to see us, the City take a position of having a
Council resolution commending the girls and the boys basketball teams and also
to include some of the other activities that have been taking place such as the
37
City Council Meeting - March 26, 1990
gymnasts and also the debaters.
Councilman Workman: What about Tonka hockey? Tonka Hockey team took 3rd place.
Councilwoman Oimler: Did you include the girl's volleyball team? They went to
State also.
Don Ashworth: I've got the names and I'll check them out and see who they are.
Mayor Chmiel: I just want to let you know that the past two Sundays I've been
over at the hlgh school representing the Clty and making awards to the girls
basketball teams as well as the debaters and gymnasts and the boys basketball
team this past Sunday. Tt was really sort of neat. Those kids were really
pumped. It was really nice to see that enthusiasm as they had and their sense
of humor. What Z really thoroughly enjoyed about watching them, I dldn't get an
opportunity to go to the games but I did watoh it on TV. I thought thetr
sportsmanship was absolutely the tops. Both the girls and the boys. To me
that's worth something in itself.
Councilman Johnson: Dldn't the Chan Elementary 5th graders do something?
Councilman Workman: Get 4th in the nation or something?
Councilman Johnson: Or 4th in the State or something. In sctence or something.
Mayor Chmiel: We'll let Oon check on that.
Councilman Workman: My mother-in-law lives and works in Owatonna. But let's
not forget the hockey team at Tonka because that's pretty exciting. They beat
Edina.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. [ thlnk we should have some type of resolution on lt.
Councilman Johnson: Check with the M£nnetonka schools to see what groups...
Mayor Chmlel: I just gave Don something on that too to follow through.
Councilman Workman: Earlier in the fall we discussed what we had for the
process and if we're going out the resolutions, certainly posttlve ones. Now I
don't know. I'm just frustrated with the legislature down there. I know we're
going to dlscuss on Thursday wlth the HRA the predictament that's been created
by abusers of tax increment. I don't know if we're a part of that group or not
but the House and Senate and the Governor all trylng to make a dectslon about.
It's now come down to how much are they going to cut off of our budget and not
if or what so I don't know. I'm disappointed. I wanted to express tn thts
forum my disgust with the situation down there. It sounds like the situation's
only golng to get worse down next year.
Councilman Johnson: It seems the most easy group for the legislature to pick on
ls the clties.
Councilman Workman: Well agaln. I don't know if we need to do. If a
resoIution's even going to matter to them but It's something that if we don't
38
City Council Heating - Hatch 26, [990
get our act straighten out down there, we're going to have problems here and
it's frustrating me and Z've sa~d that and everybody can go home.
Councilman Johnson: Well I agree with you Tom. All the small cities have got
to get organized and work in unison and probably through the League of Cities
and whatever to tell them our predictament's just as bad as their predlcatment.
They hurt us, that hurts them.
Councilman Workman: It's just plain silliness Z guess is the word down there.
If you have a reserve, they want to get the City for having a reserve.
Councilman Johnson: If you've got good fiscal management and they don't,
they've got a problem, we do so they're going to penalize us for doing good. I
agree with you. ! don't know what we can do about it.
Hayor Chm~el: Okay, any other discussion.
AD~INISTR~TIV[ PRESENTATION: USE OF R~d. PH FUNDS TO ~CGU/RE~L LOCATED AT
INTERSECTION OF BI. UFF C~ DRIV~ AND PIONeeR TRAIL, ~CANN~ DIRECTOR.
Paul Krauss: We talked to you about this on ssveral occasions in the past. We
have a large property owner or group of property owners that has about 110
acres, about 55 acres of which are impacted by the official alignment of TH 212.
They have asked us to proceed with an application for RALPH funding to allow the
City to acquire the property. P.s /'ye indicated before, I don't see RALPH
funding as the panacea for anything. There's quite a bit of staff time Involved
in getting these applications together. The City may have to outlay some funds
which presumably we can recoup when we sell the land back to HnDot as long as ue
keep a good accounting of it but I need a resolution from the City Council in
support of using or applying for the RALPH funding. I think in general it's a
good program. It's got some problems but it's a good program and is a public
benefit to locking up the right-of-way now when it's cheaper. Also it helps out
a property owner who would otherwise would presumably develop their property in
this case. We've talked to the Hetro Council. We think this thing qualifies.
We're trytng to minimize the City's exposure and we have recommended that the
applicant be required to escrow money that we would otherwise have to outlay for
the appraisal which should limit our exposure. Again, we are recommending that
you approve resolution endorsing the RALPH application.
Councilman Workman: Is this a specific or general resolution?
Paul Krauss: It's a specific one to the 110 acre site.
Councilman 3ohnson moued, Councilwoman D/mler seconded to adopt a rem)lut/on to
u~e R~LPH funds to acquire portions of 109.74 acre s[te which are required for
future right-or-#ay on TH 212. ~11 voted In favor and the mot/on carried.
Councilwoman O[mler moved, Councilman 3ohnson a~conded to ad:lourn the meeting.
~11 voted [n favor and the mot[on carried. The moetln~ ~a~ ad:lourned at 9:40
Submitted by Don Ashworth, City Hanager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
39