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1991 08 12CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR HEETING AUGUST 12, 1991 Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Workman, Councilman Wing and Councilwoman Dimler COUNCILNEHBERS ABSENT: Councilman Mason STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Charles Folch, Paul Krauss, Todd Hoffman and Elliott Knetsch, City Attorney APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilwoman Dlmler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the agenda as amended by Councilman Wing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEHENTS: None. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the Ctty Manager's recommendations: a. Acceptance of $4,000 Donation from the Chanhassen Elementary School Association of Parents and Teachers for the Purchase of Playground Equipment. b. Wetland Alteration Permit for the Realignment of Highway 101 (South Leg) and also the West ?8th Street Oetachment Project and the mitigat£on of approximately 2.5 acres of Wetland, City of Chanhassen. e. Resolution ~91-72: County State Aid Road System, Turn Back of Stoughton Avenue. f. Resolution ~91-73: Approve Application for Reimbursement for Peace Offlcer Continuing Education Courses. g. Naming of Street South of Chanhassen Bow1 and East of Market Boulevard to Pauly Drive. h. Resolution ~91-74: Accept Sanitary Sewer Extension along Powers Boulevard, Project No. 90-7. i. Resolution ~91-75: Call Assessment Hearings for: 1) Lake Drive East, Project 89-6 2) Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 5th Additlon (Park Place Phase II), Project 85-13B j. Approve Contract Time Extension for West 79th Street Improvement Project 91-8 City Council Meeting -. August 12, 199i Resolution 4591-76'- Approve Resolution Requesting MnOot to add TH 5 from Park Orive to TH 41 and the new U.S. Hlghway 212 from Lyman Blvd. West to TH 41 to their 1995-96 Construction Program. m. Approval of Accounts. n. City Council Minutes dated July 22, 1991 Planning Commission Minutes dated July 17, 1991 Park and Recreation Commission Mlnutes dated July 23, 1991 o. Approve Contract Amendment No. i to Scope of Services Contract for MUSA Expansion, Comprehensive Sanltary Sewer and Water Study. All voted in favor and the motion carried. C. ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO DEFINE/CLARIFY BED AND BREAKFAST ESTABLISHMENTS, FIRST READING. Councilman Workman: I can understand a lot of some of the questions that were raised as far as Zoning Ordinance to define and clarify what a bed and breakfast establishment ls but I'm not so sure I understand some of them. The Planning Commission clarified for me why maybe we don't want somebody to stay there more than 7 days or person or persons so that it doesn't become a boardlng house. Why are we concerned that it specifically be 5 or less rooms? Mayor Chmiel: Paul, would you like to address that? Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Workman. There was a desire, and this goes back to when thls bed and breakfast was originally approved. Zt was approved with up to 5 rooms in it and it really set the pace for whatever we did in the future. We only have one at thls tlme and we probably only stand the possibility for a couple more. But I think there was a desire to put a cap, an effective cap on the slze of these buslrlesses because they are taklng place in residential areas. Whether or not 5 is the maglc number I couldn't tell you but 5 was in the orlginal request for this bed and breakfast and it sort of became set in stone. Councilman Workman: Wouldn't it make more sense maybe, and I know the one we're specifically talking about is located, it's probably not located near any other homes. Not too close. Wouldn't it make more sense to maybe put the limit on the number of rooms on how big the parcel is or something? It just seems like we're restricting this and we're not really sure why. Based on the flrst one in. ~ guess I'm not sure where, I mean couldn't realistically the old semlnary become a bed and breakfast? Paul Krauss: Yes. In fact the individual who purchased the property a year ago is still planning on the possibility of putting in a hotel in the main building and two separate bed and breakfast facilities in the old homes nearby. Yes, you're correct, Councilman Workman: It wouldn't be classified a bed and breakfast though? City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 Paul Krauss: It depends on how he brings this into us. We think the whole project, if he moves forward, would come in as a PUD so the question is moot at that point. Tf he comes in and wants to get the bed and breakfast establishment going and running first, which he's talked about doing, that would have to come in under this ordinance. Councilman Workman: Wouldn't this ordinance then be kind of, wouldn't the ordinance become old as soon as that happens? Wouldn't we have to gut it out? Paul Krauss: If the homes down there were large enough that they wanted more than 5 boarding rooms or 5 bedrooms, yes. There would be a problem. Councilman Wing: We're opening up a variance door then. Councilman Workman: That's what I don't want to create because it doesn't sound 11kw maybe we're looking too far into, I don't know where there would be another bed and breakfast other than that one. Maybe. Paul Krauss: I couldn't tell you with any certainty either but I think the possibility of Chanhassen having many more bed and breakfasts ls getting more remote as we speak. Those klnds of properties out in the more rural areas are just being surrounded by subdivisions and we may get a few but it's kind of hard to guess. Councilman Workman: Well paul, why don't you and I maybe talk about that some more and why don't I move approval of it as it is and then we can maybe talk between now and the second reading. Councilwoman Oimler: Or do you want to table it? Mayor Chmiel: No. He's going to move it with worklng wlth the language to address some of the concerns. I think prior to accepting that, the balance of the Councll should have that opportunity to also review it. Councilman Wing: I'll second that motion. Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the First Reading of Zoning Ordinance Amendment to define/clarify bed and breakfast establishments with direction to staff to address some of the concerns raised by Councilman Workman. All voted in favor and the motion carried. 0. AUTHORIZATION TO PREPARE BIO SPECIFICATIONRL HEALTH INSURANCE POLICY. Councilman Wing: Item (d) on the health insurance for city employees. Todd, does thls remaln an open discussion item? Whereby movlng thls particular item, does it become closed with that action? Does this terminate discussion at budget time on how much beneflt we choose to give city employees? Todd Gerhardt: No. This is preparing the specifications. You need to approve the specifications before we go out to blds on thls. So we'd brlng those back to you based on the specs that would be prepared by Joe Harten. City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 Councilman Wing: So if ue chose to expand this coverage, that door is still open? Todd Gerhardt: Yes it is. You could that at the time that you had specifications in front of you or if you want to talk about a specific part of it now or into the future before we prepare the specs. You can do that. Councilman Wing: With that I'd move approval of item (d). Councilwoman Dimler: Second. Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to authorize to prepare bid specifications, Health Insurance Policy. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None PUBLIC HERRING: ABOPT ASSESSHENT ROLL FOR AUBUBON ROAB SOUTH~ PROJECT 89--18. Charles Folch: Hr. Mayor, members of the council. As I eluded to in my staff report, the assessment for this project involved only three parcels. It might be appropriate to ask the audience if there's anyone here for that project and if so we can go through a detailed presentation. Otherwise, I can certainly go thro~gh a brief presentation Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thank you. Why don't we just go through that particular procedure. Charles Folch: This project is basically the second and final segment of the overall roadway improvement project to Audubon Road between TH 5 and Lyman Blvd.. The improvements included street reconstructions, sanitary sewer, watermain, storm drainage facilities and a trail. These improvements were anticipated previously and are included in the City's development and tax increment district No 2. In a manner consistent with the previous roadway segment improvement to Audubon Road, the cost of the roadway improvements, storm sewer, street lights, trail, landscaping and trunk oversizing costs for the sewer and uatermain are to be financed by the increment district. The only assessments proposed are the local share of the sanitary sewer and watermain. The cost for the sanitary sewer and uatermain installations less the trunk oversizing costs are proposed to be assessed on a front foot basis to benefitting properties. The assessment per foot, front foot rate for the sanitary sewer is figured out to be $~8.59 and for the uatermain $20.33. The overall assessment rate is approximately 4% less than those proposed in the feasibility report. As I mentioned there's three property owners that are directly benefitting from these utility improvements. The project consultant engineer from HNTB is also present tonight if there's any specific questions that we need to go into for the project. Mayor Chmiel: Fine. Thank you. Is there anyone wishing to address this specific item? As I mentioned, this is a public hearing. This is your opportunity to come forth and express your opinion at this time on this particular project. If seeing none, I'd like a motion to close the public hearing. City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. Councilman Workman: I would move the adoption of assessment roll for Audubon Road South, Project 89-18. MayoF Chmiel: Is there a second? Councilwoman Dimler: I'll second that. Mayor Chmiel: Any more discussion? Resolution ~t91-77: Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to adopt the Audubon Road South Improvement Project 89-18 assessment roll and that the assessment term be set for eight (8) years at an 8~ interest rate. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC HEARING: ADOPT ASSESSHENT ROLL FOR COUNTRY HOSPITALITY SUITES, PROJECT 89-25. Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. The improvements associated with this project were petitioned for by the developer by the Country Hospitality Suites. As such, with the development contract that they entered into with the City, they have agreed to the assessments and have waived their rights to an assessment appeal. However, out of basically a courtesy we have notified them on the final numbers for assessment and are holding a public hearing tonight. Mr. Gary Ehret of BRW who was the project consultant engineer is here if there's any specific detail items to address. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone who wishes to address this issue? If seeing none I'd like a motion to close the public hearing. Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearin9 was closed. Resolution ~91-78: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to adopt the Country Hospitality Suites Improvement Project No. 89-25 assessment roll and that the assessment terms be set for eight (8) years at a rate of 8~ interest. All voted in favor and. the motion carried. PUBLIC HEARING: ADOPT ASSESSMENT ROLL FOR LAKE ANN INTERCEPTOR SEWER, PROJECT 87-35. Public Present: Name Address Ual Wirtz Janicke Ray & Lisa Notermann 1620 Koehnen Circle 7021 Galpin Blvd. 1450 Arboretum Blvd. City Council Meeting -- August 12, 1991 Name Address Dean Simpson Warren & Arlene Phillips J~mes E. Mielke 6eri Elkaas Merrill R. Steller Roxanne Youngquist Jim King Martin Kuder Ted R. Coey Hennessy's Doug & Teresa Bentz Sandy Ramsey Marlie & Breck .Johnson Steve Buresh Mike Gorra Terry O'Brien Al. Harvey Mark & Kathy Sanda Clarence & Phyllis Haile Dan Wegler Merle Steinkranz John Waldron Alan Peterson Bob Chrlstensen Jerome & Lind~ Carlson %anl & Nancy Mancino Eric Rivkin Don Kelly Mark Red ~hite Joe Herin 7185 Hazeltine 1571 Lake Lucy Road 1645 Lake Lucy Road 2763 Ches Mar Farm Road 1931 Crestvieu Circle 7105 Hazeltine Blvd. 6640 Galpin Blvd. 6831 Galpin Blvd. 1381 Lake Lucy Road 7305 Galpin Blvd. 7Z80 Galpin Blvd. 6681 Galpin Blvd. 6621 Galpin Blvd. 6651 Salpin Blvd. 1680 Arbore[um 1420 Lake Lucy Road 1430 Lake Lucy Road 1685 Steller Court 1675 Steller Court 7010 Ches Mar Drive 1800 Lake Lucy Road 1900 Lake Lucy Road 1831 L~ke Lucy Lane 1511 Lake Lucy Road 6950 6alpin Blvd. 6620 Galpin Blvd. 1695 Lake Lucy Road 2081 West 65th Street Representing Prince R. Nelson 1441 Lake Lucy Road Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the council. I'd like to start out this presentation by introducing the former Clty Engineer, Mr. 8111 Monk who was the Clty Engineer for Chanhassen durlng the planning stages a few years ago for this project and he's here tonlght basically to glve a brief overview of the hlstory that occurred in the development of this project. Bill Monk: Mayor, members of the City Council. I feel a little strange being here tonight after being gone for so long but ]: was the City Engineer back in 1986 when t hls project was essentially conceived and brought to the public hearing stage and after talking to Oon, with I~im being absent this evening, he asked hie whether I could come over and do a brlef hlstory, and the key word ls brlef and I wlll do that tonight just to bring everybody up to speed. I'm not sure who remembers thls project on the Clty Council and so on but to just go through ,~ couple of overheads and try to go re'fy quickly from beginning of this project to how we got [o where we are and your exsltlng staff member, Charles and 8111 Engelhardt will klnd of help to take over and go over with you how they came up with the assessment roll you have before you. If I can go over here, I'll talk as loud as I can. Here's a copy of a map that the City saw back in 1984. Thls was what was shoved before our noses by the Metropolitan Councll and the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission. They were havlng some severe flow City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 problems. Sanitary sewer flow problems with the Lake Virginia lift station and the cities that drained into that from around Lake Minnetonka. Their proposal was to come into this lift station and to build a force main to go all the way from the lift station at this point, across northern Chanhassen and it would tie into a large interceptor that they had over in the Riley-Purgatory Creek area. Was going to go along Lake Lucy Road and then down Pleasant View Road. We sat this and we were quite excited for a couple of reasons. One is that we were very worried about a lot of the horror stories we had heard about large force mains, especially with the area that this traversed. If there was any kind of a break with a pressure type main, the environmental problems that might come into play. Additionally there was a second phase of the project that they were going to have to upgrade an existing forcemain down in this area that served as the primary service link, sanitary sewer service link for downtown Chanhassen which ue had very serious problems with and we questioned their intentions to really upgrade that as shown on thls plan. Additionally, Chanhassen and Eden Prairle have been showlng gravity trunk lines through Lake Ann at Red Rock area since the early ?O's and this ls dlrectly contrary to that and we were worried about the costs that the City might incur if we had to at some later date put a local trunk sewer up through thls area. What the City did at that point was essentially argue with the Metropolitan Council and Metropolitan Waste Control Commission that this was lndeed a better plan from several perspectives. Economics being one of the keys. That it was much better from Chanhassen's, Eden Pralrle's and Metropolitan Waste Control Commission's polnt of view to look at a facility that could be used by all three cities. Eden Prairie down in this area was already looking at extending what they called the Red Rock Interceptor which was already within the MUSA line and they were looking at significant costs to do it themselves and Chanhassen had always planned or shown on lt's comprehensive plan that the Lake Ann area would be servlced by gravity lines through here. If that force maln went in, the Clty was looking at some polnt when the MUSA line was changed, having to extend a local trunk up to service the area and really questioned whether we'd ever be able to do lt. So in essence what it came down to is the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission was looking at spendlng $10 m1111on dollars for force main work and then leaving Chanhassen and Eden Prairie to do it's own local interceptor. We were saying that this $15 mi111on dollar project would be in everybody's lnterest because it would essentially build those local interceptors as they solve their upstream problems. After a lot of pushing and shovlng essentially this ls the 11ne that was built. As part of the agreement, Eden Prairie and Chanhassen had to agree to pay local share for oversizing of plpe that was done to collect local flow and the two cities had to put in $1.5 million dollars. I keep wanting to say Crystal. I'm going to say it sooner or later. That's where I work now. Chanhassen's share of that was $500,000.00. As part of the agreement it had to be pald in installments and I belleve lt's already been paid. The important thlng to realize when you look at this is that in essence what Chanhassen was kind of...$500,000.00 for the overslzing of the interceptor line so that connections could be made to that and at a future date and run into that line and you would have no capacity problems. The exact same scenario was played down in the Red Rock Interceptor. The line was oversized to accept the... connections and lateral extensions lnto that trunk 11ne. The $1.5 mllllon dollars of the $15 mlllion dollar project represented the oversizing that was done just for that trunk beneflt ulth the knowledge that laterals would have to be extended. It's important to realize that it's just the trunk benefit essentially that we're talking about or ls being looked at tonlght. Not lateral City Counci.1. lieeting -. ~ugu~t 12., .1.991 extensions or connections right into the main but essentially the ability to connect and to have a pipe there large enough 'r. hat it can be connected to. Essentially what this comes down to is the line is rather long but you must remember that sections of the pipe as they ~ere constructed replaced a pipe that was alreadx in place. So xou really weren't building this pipe to service parts of Chanhassen because the/ already had service. What ~e were looking at ~ae the trunk benefit associated ~ith a portion of the City that did not have service at the time the pipe ~ent in. ~hen xou break that do~n, as the engineer has for d.isc~tssion tonight, the part of Chanhassen that did not have service essentiallx was this part of to~n that ~as not ~ithin the MUS6 line. This map ~ae developed essentially bx looking at ~ohat area of to~n did not have service previous to the installation of trunk lines and ~hat part of to~n did have service or trunk service once the line ~as in place. The area outlined on this map is done bM Four present staff sho~s the portion of Chanhaesen that can no~ derive service. Thle is very, very close to the map that ~as done in 198& for the improvement hearing when this was discussed the first time. There's only two points I'd like to raise about this and then let discussion go on from there. Two important parts of the improvement here were one, what kind of a number should we come up with or how should we derive an assessment figure to try and assess t:hese properties because this is verM rough terrain. Bifficult to serve. you look at your 'trunk charges right now, you have between 2 and 2 1/2 units per acre and we knew we were never goillg [.0 see development like you've got in downtown Chanhassen right now so we 'tried to take a look at it. What I did back J.n 1986, we had ~ new p~at in. Z believe it was called Lake Lucy Highlands. I took a look at the area included in that plat. I took a look at the ultimate development plan tidal ~e required for ali lots with 2 l/Z acre lots and did some calculations of useable acreage on that and I came back with a figure of what. 1.3 units per acre and applied that ~.3 units per acre, which is low but it seems reasonable given the terrain in this area, to $600.00 per ur, it trunk cl~arge that you have to come up with a number that was prorated out on an acreage bas~s and then we did our best job in trying to figure out ~here the ~etlands were and ~here the unuseable portions of the property ~ere to come up ~ith the proposed assessment back in 1986 to give people an idea of ~hat their assessment might be for trunk benefit. The second issue that comes into play this and I know it's going to be remembered by quite a few people is when proposed this project in 1986, there ~as a fair amount of discussion about when can we expect this assessment to come due. What you have to remember is back then we had just had a 2 Fear battle I guess ~ith the Metropolitan Council this whole issue. What ~e were being told rather firmly at that point in time ~as that there was a good chance tidal the MUS~ line ~ould not be moved or amended until the year 2000. We heard that over and over and over again as ~e went through this whole process. I'm sure that I said that on a number of occasions, either during the public meetings or during the public hearing itself but in essence ~hat has occurred is that since that time 6hanhassen has been successful in having the MUS6 changed, as you're all well a~are. No~ this area has essentially opened, is op~n to development with the extension of lateral lines through the area. So at this point ~hat is being proposed is to move ah~ad probably a little bit ahoad of the schedule that had been proposed back in 1986 but as far as I can see it is consistent with what was talked about in 1986. 6har].es and Bill are much better versed in carrying I think the discussion on from this point in terms of ho~ they came up with the numbers for the assessment and the acreages involved at this point. I'll be staMin9. I'll City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 be happy to answer any questions on the history but I just wanted to give you a 10 minute recap and I'll leave this up for discussion purposes. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Those of you who would like to get up and make presentations, I'd like to ask you to limit your time period to at least 5 minutes and address the issue. If it takes a few more minutes that's fine but there may be several people who wish to address this. I'd like to open this public hearing at this time. Please state your name and your address. Don Kelly: My name is Don Kelly. My address is 2081 West &Sth Street. In the fall of 1986 we had an emergency problem with our septic systems in our neighborhood. Eight homes on my street, eight homes on Crestvieu Street and five lots on the Whitetail Ridge development were sewered the following year using existing trunks in the Pheasant Hills area. I do not feel that we should be included in the current assessment. Apparently there's been a discussion with city staff and city staff has acknowledged that ue should not be in the current assessment but I would like an acknowledgement at the public hearing that these 21 lots should not be included in the assessment. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Eric. Eric Rivkin: Are you going to discuss this first? Mayor Chmiel: What I'd like to do is continue on with the specific questions and we'll address a specific question if there are concerns, we can address it but I'll just continue... Eric Rivkin: Okay. Less than 5 minutes, I promise. I am objecting. Mayo;' Chmiel: Would you state? Eric Rivkin: My name is Eric Rivkin. 1695 Lake Lucy Road. I stand up to be counted as an objecter to the assessment. I want to explain what my basis is for the objection. What constitutes it. I feel this is the only chance that I have of either deferring or eliminating what I consider an unfair assessment. There are several things that make up for this basis of objecting that some other people may share. But if landowners feel that the City should enforce it's policy on the comprehensive plan to insure that lots develop recently with newer septic systems, quote. I'm quoting out of the comprehensive plan. "Would not be unduly burdened by new local utility lines and related assessments." And if landowners believe in the right to use an alternative drainfield site that was imposed by the City on these newer lots in case the original drainfield site failed, and if these landowners believed that because of the imposed stringent standards we had to install our septic systems at 1 1/2 times State standard I believe. In addition to that the education and monitoring program that's going to be enforced now, that that would certainly delay or possibly eliminate the potential for environmental harm by a septic system. If landowners believe that there's no absolute certainty that even if the septic system did fail that hook up to this interceptor would be necessary or the most beneficial way to solve the problem. Well what about septic systems? Everything fails eventually. Our planet is failing and so will septic systems. Right now there's no technology that we know of we can simply put in place of a failed septic system. We have tendencies to hook up a pipe and deliver our sewage out of our backyard. We City Co~lncil MeetJ. l]g - August 12, 1~91 waste too much water that hastens the process of our planet failing. We don't reuse water or recycle what we should or could. There's an article recently in the Star al~d Tribune called Metro Areas Water Supply Threatened. It makes it very cie.ir, ab,l~dantly cleat' tl~at co,servation and reclaiming waste water is the best water management practice of the future. Not putting your problems out into tile Minnesota River. Just to refresh your memories here's a copy of it. Because of efforts underway now 'For reclamation technology to be applied in a septic replacemen~ :situation, there is no absolute certainty that in 20 or 30 years we have to hook up to what could be an obsolete and expensive municipal system. And if landowners object, believe that in the event assessments might be levied because of this, that wouldn't occur until at least the year 2000 which was according to the, my impression, according to the original Lake Ann Interceptor' discussions. And if landowners believe that the levy amount seems f.,correct, given a high probability that bei,g assessed for buildable acres is not accurately been determined, as has not i, my case, that's another basis for objection. And if you believe that you shouldn't pay for a utility you won't derive immediate benefit from, there's another one. So prior to this hearing I made my objections know, to as many citizens as I k,eu existed in that assessment area to help people formulate their own objections, if they choose to do so. As for my situar, ion, everything that I said forms the basis of my objection. Also, the amount of buildable land I have estimated as clearly t~rong. ~ bought, the assessment is based on 4 acres of buildable land. I have 10.3 acres according to my survey which shows, the surveyor wrote 1.~ acres above ~ recorded wetland contour. And so a difference between 1.~ and ~ is a bio deal. And if you s~mbtract things that also deem lots unbuildable besides wellands such as steep slopes and if there's a lateral assessment easement that goes down along the lake as you've done with many other lakes with that inlerceptor, that also takes that out of a buildable status. $o that land that theoretically could have 10 houses on it could actually only support 1 or 2. $o I guess I object to the way in which it was calculated. I'll give you a copy of my map. Thank you very much. Hayer Chmiel.' Thank you. Anyone else? Gert Eikaas: I'm Geri Eikaas. I live at 2763 Ches Mar Farm Road. I'm also speaking against the assessment~ I'd like to clarify something. You're showing Ches Mar Farm o, the map as in the MUSA line. I asked the engineer. He thinks it's not. I called today a,d I was told that we are no i,side the MUSA line. That the line is TH 41 so can I have that clarified. Charles Folch; Tl~at is correct. That area was llOt illcluded in the new Comp P]a~ amendment for the MUSA. That ls outslde. Gert Eikaas: ~ith that in mind, I did speak with Metropolitan Cou,cil. I was to].d by Metropolitan Council that if we are outside the MUSA line, in reality the City can~lot assess us because i~ fact they're asking us to do somethi~lg that we can't do because it's illegal for us to connect with sewer and water. So how can we be asked to pay an assessment that we can't do? Mayor Chmiel: Charles, would you like to respond? Charles Folch: Yeah, I think there was some misunderstanding with that information. They were included in the assessment area basically because they 10 City Council Meeting -- August 12, 1991 could eventually certainly benefit and hook up by a lateral to the interceptor. I would recommend that that area be removed from the assessment ro11. Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Thank you. Geri Eikaas: Thank you. One other thing. Trying not to think of just my own situation but thinklng of other people, I thlnk Erlc brought up an ldea and the same feeling that I have that I presently take care of my own soft water system. Z take care of my own septlc system. ~ have to pay for maintenance on that for cleaning, etc. and there must be a lot of people in that situation who are now considered to have this assessment and in reallty they're belng asked to pay for two systems. I don't think that people on sewer and water would be paying to clean out thelr septic tanks and ~ don't see how you can do that. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Maybe I can address that. I was in your particular position at the same time back when I flrst moved to the city. I did have a septic system and of course the sewer line was available. Not only the sewer line but in addltlon to that we had streets and gutters, and storm water runoff as well. I was required to remove my septic system from use and be connected to the Clty's sewer 11ne. I know what you're saylng because the total assesment that I had on mine at that particular time was $10,000.00 so I know where you're comlng from and most of the other people. But unfortunately, through the growth and progress as we go through the city, those thlngs do become available and the best way to remove any of the impurities that we have flowlng ls by connecting to. Geri Eikaas: But you're asking these people to be paylng before there's even anything there that they can be hooked up to. I see that as different. If it's out in the street lt's a whole different thing. Mayor Chmiel: Well, someone has to pay for those things and that's where the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission comes ln. They can mandate you that you will pay for that. The City can't pick it up so the assessments do have to go out unfortunately. Geri Eikaas: Thank you. Councilman Wing: I just want to clear up with Charles. Ches Mar is outside the MUSA line? Is that correct? Charles Folch: That's correct. TH 41 is the westerly boundary. Councilman Wing: But they're going to be in the assessment area? Charles Folch: Well, they were put in the original assessment area because they could, or it was determined that they eventually could hook by laterals to the interceptor. In fact, if there was ever an emergency situation where they have some system failures, I'm sure we could work with Met Council to get them on clty service. But at thls polnt in tlme, it does not seem appropriate slnce they are outslde the urban service area to lnclude them in. So it was actually an inadvertent error to have them included. 11 City Counc.[.1 I'lee[in9 -, August 12, 1991 Counciln, arl Wing" Then what abouL the new plat that's being developed out there for tile addif, ion,~l 3 homes? 1'hey're going to be on .septic systems and their own wel].e or are they going to be tied in the HUS~? Charles Folch: No, that's correct, Zf they're west of TH 41, they at'e outside (he MUSA. They will be on septic systems. Col,ncilman Wing: They won't be in tl~e assessment area? Charles Folch: They won't be in the assessment, no. If they are, if the I>roperties are west of TH 4~. Councilman Wing: What am I missing here? Their property is west of TH 41. Mayor Chmiel: That's correct. Councilman Wing: ~nd the same development area that the housing development's going Hayer Chmiel~ That's correct. That would be west of TH 41 and that's outside the ItUSA. Councilman Wing: But the existing homes are being assessed? Charles Folch: They were included on the assessment roll by mistake. I would recommend that they be removed from the assessment ro11. Councilman Wing: That's what ]: wanted clarified. Mayor Chmiel: Maybe if we can just back up in relationship to Don Kelly's question regarding that connection that they were in Pheasant Hills. Charles Folch: That's correct too. That was another area where a number of i,omes were hooked up with the Crestview/West 65th/Whitetail Ridge development. Those areas had been removed ~nd letters went out today to all those property owners notifying them that they're removed from the assessment roll. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Yes sir. Jerome Carlson: Thank you Hayer. Councilmembers. Jerome and t. inda Carlson. I'm representing 6950 Galpin Blvd.. We have not filed a written statement. Does this suffice? Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Jerome Carlson: I heard the end of Mr. Rivkin's comments about the acreage and we would have a similar concern. 58 acres of our 75 I~ave been included and we think that if we were to come to you and actually want to develop 58, you might h~zve a real problem with that. So we don't think that .58 perhaps are developable and we would question that. We would like to have someone go over perhaps a topography or some other means of helping measure that. If that can be shown to us and we can agree that should we come back at a later date and say well then we want to develop 58 acres because we're being assessed for 58, 12 City Council Heeting - August 12, 1991 that's fine but we object to that at thls tlme because we don't qulte understand it. Mayor Chmiel: If Z could just add something. As it shows here. Useable acreage is 43.17 as opposed to 53. Jerome Carlson: There's an additional 13 acres I believe or so. Mayor Chmiel: Yes, 14. You're right. 57. Jerome Carlson: 57-58 acres. I would like to go through the process wlth somebody and understand that. Mayor Chmlel: We can do that. Jerome Carlson: I don't want to be unfair about it. I just want to look at it. Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. Tonight in discussion with our project consultant who actually was retained to prepare and generate the numbers, we discussed the possibility if there was a lot of questions as to exactly how their area was deflned as useable. What we dld basically was took our 1989 aerial photography, which contained the contours of all these parcels and we re-evaluated each of the individual parcels on this assessment ro11. The net effect of our re-evaluation was to reduce and overall there was a reduction in total useable acreage for all the parcels involved. But gettlng back to what I wanted to point out was that we discussed that if there was a lot of pushing as to how the useable area was derived at on a particular parcels, we could establish a work session time where we could notify all the property owners if they had questions and we could set up a time and get together here at City Hall and go through that wlth them. Jerome Carlson: That would be flne. I989 was the end of the drought. Z think you might flnd some of that land under water is really the problem. When we agreed to slgn the easement through our property on 1988, March, for the Lake Ann Interceptor, it is my recollection that we asked once again, and I say once again because in 1987 we did ask the Clty when we purchased our orlginal land, if there would be an assessment related to this. Our recollection is that the answer was no. It was a means of connecting an area that had to have thls utility. That has changed. We think. We understand that there's been a great deal of money spent and that it has to be charged back to somewhere. Llnda and I do not want to be at all unfair about that. Whatever that means. Our belief ls that although we dld not think that there would be any chance for development until after the year 2000, there is the pipe in the ground. Has consideration been glven to charglng back assessments at the tlme that people choose to develop their land. If they were in fact among that group that were assured that there would be no other development or rezoning until after the year 2000. In other words, if they chose to develop some of their land prlor to that time or whenever, they would then fall under a new category of being assessed for this particular assessment. I don't know what that does to the Metropolitan Waste Commission's requirements but lt's a thought and idea that mlght strlke somebody as being fair. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else? Cit:y Council Meeting -- August 12, 1991 Councilman Workman: Mr. Mayor, in the interim. This doesn't have anything to do with Metropolitan Waste 6ontrol, it's City's money that we're recouping correct? Mayor Chmiel: Right. Mark Red White: Mr. Mayor, City Council. My name is Mark Red White and I'm representing Prince R. Nelson and his area around here, which he does have a considerable amount. As with the rest of these gentlemen, you know most of that land is under water right now. Was under water when they started digging. There's steep slopes that's on his personal property and as far as the building on the south side of TH 5, and does this include south of TH 5? Charles Folch.'. No. Mark Red White: Why would I have 3 individual different pieces? Paul Krauss: I would suspect it's tile individual tax parcels. Mark Red White: Is that what it is? Charles Folch: That's correct. It's by parcel number so if there's a group of three parcels, which I'm assuming is the case, all borderin9 together, you'd get three notifications. Mark Red White: Okay. But then this is about one-fifth of the total cost of this thlng and like ~ said, probably 75~ of that ls, you couldn't bulld on it if you wanted to. I just wanted to say there's an objection to lt. And the gentleman who was just up here before, I think that was a good plan because I don't thlnk that Mr. Nelson ls golng to build on that property. That's not why he bought it. It just seems very unfair. To go .tn and rip something up that was so beautiful to begin wlth and now it looks 11ke the moon out there. That's about it. I've got some papers here for MT'. Ashworth. Mayor Chmiel: Good. I'll accept those at this time. Mark Sanda: Hy name is Mark Sanda and Z live at 1685 Steller Court which is rlght adjacent to Lake Lucy there. I guess the first item I wanted to brlng up takes us off in a little bit different direction. Last fall a lot of tile same people that are sltting in thls audlence gathered up at the school when we talked about the final hearlngs for the land use plan for Chanhassen and you were very graclous in soliciting a lot of lnput. It seems to me that one of the deals that was struck to allay a lot of people's fears is that you had designated two speclal large lot areas in the land use plan. In fact I do believe they're designated on the map. One is Lake Lucy Hlghland and then one was south of TH 5. I walked away from that meetlng, along wlth a lot of my neighbors I believe, feellng that we were told that we would not be made to hook up to the clty sewer. I t hlnk everybody relaxed qulte a blt and thought, flne. Just three years before we had been told it would be 13 years before the sewer would be coming through and then suddenly the Clty's out of land and we're facing it 10 years early and everybody relaxed a little bit. So I guess what seems to not make a lot of sense as faf- as I'm concerned ls we were told that we 14 City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 wouldn't be made to hook up to the City sewer and water and as a result would not derive any benefit from it. Now we are being made to pay a part of that. It just seems illogical and particular when ue realize that we have the border of TH 41 there. Let's say we pay this entire thing up. Another couple of years comes by and the City's out of buildable land again, a little bit early again. There's a precedent and now ue want to move the MUSA west of TH 41. I think it's inevitable that that's going to happen. So here the citizens of this area have paid for that pipe and now a large contingent of developers and the like to the west of TH 41 will enjoy the benefit. I'm sure they'll be made to hook up off the main pipe and all of that but I'm sure that's the next thing that ue will be facing too when we're told someday that ue have to hook up to the sewer which it just seems like this is the path that we're being led down. So I just wanted to add on to what Mr. Carlson had said that what seems fair to me is that when someone does approach you and say I want to split up my 10 or 15 acres into 35 lots, 40 lots, that that's when they pay for their portion of this project in addition to the individual hook-up of the individual homes, which I understand will be of course another charge at that point. So that's all I wanted to say. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else? Councilman Workman: Can I have that addressed maybe by Charles as far as? Mayor Chmiel: We'll get back to that Tom. Let's just keep going. We'll come back with some kind of answers on it. I think there's a lot of questions being asked that we'll have to look at. Lisa Notermann: My name is Lisa Notermann. I live at 1450 Arboretum Boulevard. Our house ls right there by the entrance of Lake Ann Park. I have a hard time with this assessment because I don't know how we're going to benefit from it. The 11ne ls on the other slde of the ravlne and so there's our property, Lake Ann property, then tile ravlne and then there's the line. I have a really hard tlme ulth thls because 11ke I said, I don't know how we're ever going to hook up to it being that it's way over there. From what I understand, only those that will beneflt from the line are those that uill get assessed for thls project. $o that's my concern. Councilman Wing: What was the address again? Lisa Notermann: 1450 Arboretum Boulevard. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone else? Paul Youngquist: I'm Paul Youngquist from 7105 Hazeltine Boulevard which is TH 41 and our property is pretty much the south piece of property there on the map on TH 41. We've been living in a smalZ farmhouse there and this year are building a new house. The Clty has required us to not use the exlstlng septlc system but to put in a new one and so we had to do that. BasicalZy Z'm speaking agalnst lt. We would 11ke to have the assessment 11ne just moved a 11ttle bit to exclude ours. Sounds funny but I assume tt's an arbitrary line anyway. I don't know why we're rlght at the bottom of the property there on TH 41. I have a couple of neighbors next to us and we all have sewer systems that are up to date and I can't lmagine, it's going to be a long tlme before we end up tying 15 (':.iLy Cour'mc.'L1. Her-)til'm,~j --AI.tgl.~mt 12, 1991 in. We have absolutely no plans of tyirlg in to develop it. Ne bought it to live there. We h~lve three cl~ildren and plan on 11vlng there unt11 they're all gone and then we'll thlnk about something. Thank you. M,lyor Chmie].: Thank you. Al. Harvey: A1 Harvey, 1430 L~ke Lucy Road. Zt's been told, I would just like to have it cleared up at tile public hearlng, theft ours will be removed because we did put a sewer J.n front of our place last year. O'Brien and our sewer project.. Z'd just ].ike that cleared up. Charles Folch: That's correct. The joint venture wlth the O'Brien property and sewer was extended to the property and they paid for the benefit. Harvey: Thank you. Clarence Haile: My name is Clarence Haile. I live at 1675 Steller Court. We purchased our property and built our ho~se just about a year ago. We have a septic system that ¢ourteey of the City's engineers was very heavily overdeveloped. Very heavlly over engineered to protect the environment. With Lwo basins. With -a prlnlary dralrlfleld and alternate drainfleld. I thlnk lt's a very fine syst~;m ,ind I don't see a real good reason Wily I should go an alternate way wlth a septlc system. The terrairl that we have on our property, although we h~.tve over' 4 acres, t'las only one bmiildable spot but I would imagille there's been more that's been planned for but you'd have to be a mountaln goat in order to be ;zble to get the house slted Fight. Basiczlly we have very strong, very well designed septlc systems and for the purposes of our commurlity and our neighborhood, ti]is J. nterceptor ls something that we don't need ~l]d we don't want. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Teresa Bentz: My name is Teresa Bentz. We live at 7280 Galpin Blvd.. A little over ,.~ year ago we buitt ~ house on our property and you guys made us put Ln tile best septic system that you could get. It was the best. Way over cost for what we 9or. And now you w,~nt us to p~y ~gail]? Thls doesn't make sel~se. You told us ~t wasn't going to be developed unt11 the year 2000. Here it ls. Mike Gorra: Idy name is Mike Gorra. I live at 1680 Arbore[um on tile southwest corner of Lake Ann. Z have a lot of questions here but quite a few of them have ~,[Feady been answered. My main questlon now has aJ. ready been touched upon is the property west of TH 41 OLttslde of the MUSA 11ne. Zf and when they are allowed to hook up in tile future, will the people that have klcked in and paid for Z guess thls $555,000.00 is more or less a flxed cost and if the people with%ii the MUSA line for 100~ of that cost, ulll they be reimbursed or glven credit in the future ifa large chunk of land west of TH 41 ls allowed in the MUSA line? Hayor Chmlel: Thai I dol]'t know at this time Mlke. That's something that we'll ,.tddress th~tt particular que.stion. Hike Gorra~ So could there be a provision made to address that in the future? 16 City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 Charles Folch: I could probably answer that now. If we did have an emergency situation where we had to provide service down to those properties west of TH 41, at the t/me of their hook up we'd do for properties that have not pald a trunk assessment before, we do have a trunk hook up charge which we do collect at the same tlme that they apply for the hook up permlt and that runs about $600.00 and basically this assessment rate was established based on the hook up rate that we normally would have for a trunk charge. $o they will pay their share. Mike Gorra: Yeah, Z know they'll pay the share but. Mayor Chmiel: The assessments going back to the existing people. Mlke Gorra: But lt's already been pald. Mayor Chmiel: Do they receive any benefit from those dollars is the question he's asking? Mike Gorra: If the bill has already been paid 100~ by the people within the MUSA line and more people hook up, wlll that excess be kicked back to the people who already pald for the b1117 Charles Folch: No. Hike Gorra: Well that doesn't sound right. Mayor Chmiel: I think what we'll have to do is' look into that and see what it is. Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, just to clarify. Any properties that were included, particularly these properties from the assessment roll that are now dropped, we are not proposing to effect or amend the rate that's being proposed. What we would do is basically from our Trunk 401 fund, cover the costs at this point in tlme for those properties that have been deleted and when they do hook up, pay their hook up charge, we'll then reallocate the money back into the trunk fund. Mayor Chmlel: Thank you. A1Peterson: My name is A1Peterson. I own property at 1831 Lake Lucy Lane. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have a house there. We're working for final acceptance. About 2 weeks ago we installed a septic system and it sounds familiar. It's SB2 with three 100 foot laterals. These pipes are 10 inches wlde. We have an alternate drainslte. I have worked ulth the City real closely being I did my own contracting to try to work with the City and hook up for example to water, even though it was a 650 run ulth 2 lnch of pipe and a 70 foot elevation. I was feeling that was a little bit infeasible but we went through some wetlands and we dld it in March to do that. At that particular tlme I'd like to raise my objections. Number one is when I got the letter it was kind of out of the blue. I wasn't really aware of anything happening on lt. There wasn't a good explanation of what the charges were. There was just a lump sum that sald thls ls what you're golng to be assessed at and there was nothlng that said as far as the acreage and the dollars per acre. I believe that one of the prior speakers had a simllar situation. Hy terraln is very, very rugged. City Colinc.[1 M:;ol..i. ng -. ALigu~ 12:19~1 There's probably maybe, I ti~Jnk I calculated it tonight. There's probably about 38,000 square feet uhicl~ .ts a little less than ,~n acre which could actually be considered a building site. There's a lot of wetlands down in my area and I've been uorkJ, ng with the DNR to try to preserve that wetland but it's about maybe ~.t2 feet wide by 250 feet deep on the bottom end of my lot and then ~ built on tl~e Lop end of my lot. ~ith the exception of that, there isn't any other p~ace to put it. The rest is under water. If they are taking from aerial, photos, in .1989 [.here u~s quite a difference between the water level. I~ was still exhibiting wetland properties and the DNR has expressed a desire, as with ~he City, to rnairmtain those wetlands. That ]: can't see how they came up with the figure which, ~ still don't know what the figure is. Is it $600.00 or $560.00 for buildable acre? can somebody answer me that? Mayor Chmiel: I believe that was addressed before. Yes. hl Peterson: So .it's aroLt~ld $600.007 Mayor Chmiel: Somewhere in that. It was $600.00. Charles Folch: Excuse me, it's $539,00 pet' acre, Pet' useable acre. A1 Peterson: So I'm being assessed for basically maybe 2 1/2 acres of which there's nlaX i if you take into account the terrain so I just want to make my objections known. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Tom Turcotte; My name is Tom Turncot and I don't even have an address. I've .got a parcel nttmbe~' at ti,is point, Mayor Chmiel: Can you spell your last name Tom? Tom Tt.trcotte; Turcotte. We're on 7 something Galpin Road. At this point we've oot 5 acres of nice alfalfa fields. We're hoping to build next year but as h~ar about these massive septic systems that have to go in and an assessment for something that T can't see when it's going to hit, T'm not sure how Z can afford to bt~.[id ~1 [llis commu~ity, Z've got 5 acres of good land. Tt's a nice place to build but we're talking astronomicaJ septic systems and things T just don't see I~o~ Z can use. So at this point T just can't tell how th~s can be justified. Parcel No. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. ,] oe Horin: My name is Joe Morin. My address is 1441 Lake Lucy Road and I have a writ[.en objection here that I'd like to file. I'm not going to go over the details. Basically they're the same as many of the other people have already :spoken. My total acreage is calculated incorrectly. The number of buildable sites is calculated incorrectly. If you look at the setbacks from existing wetlands ~,nd ti~e. setbacks from property lines and all that stuff, there's only o,e buildable site and that's one where I'm presently building on. And again I'm in the same i~os.ition Al's in with a brand new septic system built to modern standards that we just paid for last year. Finally, it's basically totally cost prohibitive for us i:o ever think of connecting to the t. ake ~nn Interceptor 18 City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 because we're on the extreme far east of this boundary and in order to get connected it would have to go through all kinds of wetlands. Through Prince's property. It would be very destructive to the environment and a total waste. We'll never see any benefit from it. The other point is that, I believe that the Ortenblat property, the one to the extreme east is, their development proposal calls for a hook up to the east. Not to hook up to the Interceptor so lt'd be far easier for me and less destructive to the environment to also connect to the east someday should that ever be necessary, which it won't. The other polnts are more general points. First of all you've got a $15 milllon dollar project and we're looking at 3~ of that. $500,000.00 and we're trying to say how can we falrly distribute that among the residents of thls area and there really is no fair way as you're hearing. The prlmary beneficiaries are the people to the west who aren't even in the MUSA 11ne yet. Certainly we are not a primaT-y beneficiary being extremely to the east and the people who have new septlc systems. It's unfair to them also. My recommendation ls that thls whole thing which was intended to connect two major areas of the City be funded from the general tax roll and that everyone in the community pay a "falr share" rather than unfairly doling 3~ of it off to this portion of the community. Also I guess my other points are that all along we were assured that we wouldn't receive any assessments until we did develop the property, if we ever did develop it whlch we don't ever want to do. I think that would be only falr and also the year 2000 ls something that I remember real well and I also have a copy here of the provisions in the Comprehensive Plan which we feel apply to our properties along the south side of Lake Lucy Road which have new septic systems as well as the people in the other areas who thls provision was also wrltten for. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Joe. Anyone else? Ted Coey: Ted Coey. I live on 1381 Lake Lucy Road and you've got quite a hot potatoe here tonlght. I've been a resldent of Chanhassen slnce 1976. None of you were on the Council back even when this was passed back in 1983. If you were you would have remembered that we went through a lot of discussions. I think we had some of the hearings on this at the school. And as a lot of people eluded to, the year 2000 was brought up numerous times. I was at all those meetings. Vehemently opposed to this whole thing. They said flrst of all that it would not be assessed untll the year 2000 and that if you couldn't use it, you wouldn't be assessed for it. There's quite a few people here who feel that they are never golng to use this system. I've got 20 acres. I'm rlght to the east of 3ow who just spoke and I am right next to the Lundgren Bros. development. If I ever dld develop I could connect rlght to their, they're going to have the line right next to them. It's insane for me to run the septic system along the Lake Lucy and back the way Joe talked about. You're going to ruin the environment. I could easily connect when Lundgren Bros. gets their development going and I think a lot of people on Lake Lucy Road could go east.' I've got the biggest block there. Once I connect people west of me could all connect. Why in the hell run the 11ne all the way west to the interceptor? I mean that's a tremendous amount of money and I don't know how you'd pay for it. Number 2, when thls thing was originally talked about, the maln purpose of it at that time, which Bill talked about, was to heip the communities that were havlng trouble wlth the flowage. That's why this thing was put in wlth the potential of land out west being someday in the MUSA system. I think you're trying to hit the people in the small area for a system that that is helping not only C.[t.y (':ounc.i.1 t'i~..'.e.~ [n~j --Augu:.,'~ J. 2.~ J, 99L Chani-,as~sen buL Eden Prairie which everybody:s talked about. I think 3oe's idea ,'.x~d some of ~i~e wi. her peop].~ I',.~ve brought up {l',e same thing. I tl',ink ~his should be a city wide assessment. The City should be paying for this. Not us. ~ m~an ~ lot of tl',e:~e people ui].l never use thLs tl~ing. There's no way they cou].d use it. It isn't feasible. I think if you were in our situation you'd be Hayor ChmJel: I've been in yoi~r situation. Ted Coey: f;ut you I~,-zven't been in tile situation whe're you a'Fe not going to get any m.~se for something i:haL you'll be paying for. You hooked up to the sewer. We can't. If somebody ever does deveIop, for J. nstal~Ce Pr~nce deveiops hLs 200 acres, whatever he's got, he si)ovid be forced then to pay. But he bought that Land to J. Lve on amid not to develop. He's not a developer. Z just dol~'t think tl~at the thlnking on this whole project ls right. You've also got a situatioi'm, Z've been listening to about 4 or 5 people come up here. You're taking out peopJe here. You're taking out people there. The staff screwed up on this. They sorewed up on that. Z mean you'¥e not going to have that many people left to assess to start wlth. Why don't you just spread it over the city? Z think there's a Zot of issue~ here that the Council's got to taZk about as far as being fair on this. As a 15 year resident of the city I've seen the Council make some big boo boo's. ~ith the downtown area, [his is one of the b.J. gger ones. Hayo'r C. hmJel.: Thanks Ted. I appreciate your saying that we weren't sitting at ti~e time. whei~ ali. tho'.;e boo bee's were made. Ted Coey: That'~ why you got voted in. Hayer Chmi:.~l.- W:; realize that. I have one other gentleman right here that ~antecl to speak. Z thlnk that baby's getting tlred and lt's tlme to go home. Mik.'I~. Schultz: I'I, Mike Schultz and I have a property 2150 Crestview Lane. I'm so)'ry if thls is redundant. Z wanted to see, somebody had indicated that Cresi. view Lane and tl~e Pheasant Addition was out now. Zs that accurate? Z do have a questlon additionally. We purchased the land Zrm February of 1990 and we rsLtbd.i, vided 1:1'~; larmd for 'financing purposes into two Zots. one lot was carried on a contract for deed. As ~ understand lt, the people we bought the lot from put some money J.n escrow for thZs special assessment and after we subdivided the lot, after t~me closlng was done, we got the notlce thls last week that we got the special assessment on the subdivided lot that we dld not deveZop and in fact l['s hardly a developable lot at thls polnt. Z'm just wondering what the YatJ. onale is at ~his point for people who have come ~n and just bought of subdivided after the money has been put in escrow from people who are excluded im~ f.l'm.i. 4s ;~r'e,'~. MhctheY it makes any diffeYence at all. I don't know if it does or not. Mayo)' ChmJ. el: Charles, can you address that? Charles Folch: Yeah, MZke and I have had a phone conversation over this and unfortunateJ, y he has two parcels of 'record and the other parcel ls developable ai~d can hay,'., sewer service to Lt. Therefore it is a deveiopab~e piece of property and therefore should be assessed as such. 2O City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 John Waldron: Mr. Mayor, City Council. My name is John Waldron. 1900 Lake Lucy Road. For the record I don't know if the Council has definitely acknowledged it but Lake Lucy Highlands, of which I'm a part, ls definitely now classified as no sewer servlce? Mayor Chmiel: Paul, you have the MUSA under control I thlnk. Paul Krauss: Yeah. It's a rather involved issue but Lake Lucy Highlands, Timberwood and Sunrldge Court were called out for some special treatment in the comprehensive plan. Now everytime thls lssue was raised during the comprehensive plan we asked people to differentiate between the Lake Ann Interceptor, which was already a pending assessment, and new local services that the City would be puttlng in the future. We said that we might have some control and we'd try to be sensitive and not run new services through these neighborhoods. However there was never any indication given and we trled to be very specific about it that this did not apply to the Lake Ann Interceptor. Lake Lucy Highlands was one of those areas that was set aslde for some speclal consideration and sensitivity when new lines were put in. Essentially lines that would feed into the Lake Ann Interceptor. .~ohn Waldron: Does that mean the way the revised comprehensive plan is now that we're not ellglble for sewer service? Paul Krauss: No it doesn't. Your area is ellgible and I think we went to palns, the policy that Erlc started to read is really rather lengthy and indicates that we assume that these systems will fail sometime in the future and at some polnt we'll have to provide service. But untll they start to fail we don't anticipate the Clty spearheading the effort to serve these areas. John Waldron: Okay. My objection is along the 11nes of what other people have said. When I bullt my house I had to locate ina certain location because I had to have a primary and secondary septic system. Also the whole rhetoric about the year 2000 was talked about many times both by people from the City and the realtor and the person who owned the land and plotted out all that sort of thing. Then ue had just gone through, shortly after ue had built it, that the water was run down through there just after we pald a lot of money for a brand new well. Then the Clty at that time said well just because you put the new wells in ue won't make you get charged for the water untll you actually hook up. I feel that same way about the sewer hook up. You know there's a likelihood that it's going to be a lot of years, maybe even past the year 2000 before you'd ever run a trunk down Lake Lucy Road and I thlnk if you do feel that you have to charge us for the trunk on Lake Ann Interceptor that you do defer it until what time you'd end up running the lateral down Lake Lucy Road. Then we will be paylng truly for the beneflt that we are receiving. I also 11ke the idea of setting up some kind of workshop because from the amount per acre that's assessed, it looks llke my whole 4 acres is getting assessed and I'm sure that there's a certain amount of that that can't be built on. So I would appreciate that and from here what exactly ls going to happen as far as maklng a decision? Are you golng to delay it until people can get the buildable acres or what do you plan on doing? Mayor Chmlel: Z'11 reach that decision when we get done with the rest of the people and I think I'll answer your question. 21 City COUllCJ.]. Meeting - August 1'2, ,1_991 3chh galdron~ Okay, Thank you. Appreciate Merle iteinkraus: Merle Steink~'aus, 1800 Lake Lucy Road. I .just have a letter of objection to the assessments. Who do I bring it to? Mayor Chmiet: Z'11 take that. Thank you. ~nyone else? Steve Buresh; My name is Steve Buresh. I:m in Lake Lucy Highlands, t.ot 2, 8lock ~. ~ can give you a parcel number if that is more beneficiary. Mayor Chmiel: 'rhat~s fine. Steve Buresh: Okay. Well, I hate to sound like a broken record but a lot of the same comments that people have made prior are the same comments that I have to make. I'd tike to add a little bit to that in that it sounds tike from some of the previous speakers and the letter that was sent to the property o~ners, it is not clear exactly to some people whether there is a pipe in the ground. Are we paying for a hook up'? Are we paying for a main feed that is already installed? It is my understanding that it is already there and we're paying for something that we are not going to be hooking up to. That's a strong objection on my point. Tl~e year 2000 again was brought up. There's been no significant building in the area. There's no reason for having the City having petitioned to have included this area into MUSA line. The large lot requirements to build on are sufficient and we were required to present a primary and secondary drainfield site. So each of us has adequate acreage to build a secondary system. There's very little danger of contamination ~.o other property owners from bhese si[es because of the strict standards that the City did impose upon us. And also I'd like to offer this one little aside. Not in sarcasm or anything but I was talking to a neighbor's dad and they offered this comment. Would you pay for a telephone line if you didn't have telephone service because it ran in front of your property? I don't think you would and I don't think that's ever happened. I do think that at such time that ue are required to hook up, then that is fair to charge people for it. You don't get charged for something that you don't have any benefit from and we will not have benefit for some time. This area is not growing. The Lake Lucy Highland area is not 9rowing. At this point I believe I could be incorrect but I think it is almost nearly fully built ~J. th homes or the lots have been purchased and so I'd just like to offer those comments and reiterate the objections to paying for the assessment at this time with no benefit and thank you. Mayor chmiel: Thank you. Yes sir. Jim Hurry: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. My name is Jim Hurry. I live at 6640 Galpin. The question I have is simply one of clarification. Since this was 'the appointed time in which to lodge objections I would like to simply for the record understand that this work session that was intended to be brought forward would be sufficient for those who do have an objection to better understand how their assessment is arrived at rather than having to specifically place forward my specific objectio~l at the time. That is my concern. I just need to understand it better and would hope that I could challenge it at the time the presentation is made. Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you. Anyone else? 22 City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 3ohn Hennessy: 3ohn Hennessy, 7305 Galpin. Back in 1984 our taxes took a dramatic hike. When we addressed the City on this they said well, you're paying for the sewer over on Pleasant View Road. I said well how nice. We'll never get any enjoyment out of that will we. No, but you're paying for it. Everybody in the City is paying for that. Now you're coming to us and putting a sewer that we don't want, need or got to have in our area. Cough up. Come across. I mean this could just as easily be put on the general tax rolls. A little comment. It seems that there's this cast in stone mentality and I don't know where it comes from or why it has to stay but why do we have to have development? Why does every inch of the city have to be developed? It's like there's thls drive to have thls area developed and then thls area. Why can't we dare to be a little different and have some areas of our city preserved? There's so many of us in thls room that enjoy the open acreages. We bought anywhere from 2 to 200 acres because we like it that way. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to pass that down to some homeowner 20 or 30 years from now of that same mentality that would like to have a little distance. A little fresh alt. A 11ttle less curb and gutter in their backyard. Thank you. Dave Weathers: My name is Dave Weathers. I live at ?235 Hazeltine Blvd.. I'm actually south of Paul who indicated he had the south property. By the way that's a tough act to follow. I certainly agree with you that and that's my questlon too. Why does thls area have to be developed? Why does the Clty continue to push on? Apparently it brings on problems. That's why we're here tonight is because of these situations. I want to go on the record as belng opposed to the assessment on the grounds that it's based on speculation. There's no certainty that my property or properties around me would ever be connected to this interceptor. It appears that just going based on aerial photographs, this is not a very accurate way to do that and I would suggest that the assessment be deferred until the future when they can actually determine who's golng to beneflt from it and who lsn't. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else? This is your opportunity. Okay. I guess what I see presently rlght now is, there are a lot of questions that have been asked and rather than coming to a de¢islon at least this evening I would just as soon keep thls publlc hearlng open and I'll brlng thls back and dlscuss it with Council. What I'd like to see is each of these respective questions that have been asked be addressed and discussed wlth a conclusion. I don't know how long it's going to take you to do that Charles but what timeframe do you thlnk thls would take to pull thls pretty much together? Charles Folch: Well we could certainly try and shoot for the next meeting. Mayor Chmiel: Next Council meeting? Charles Folch: If we can get the Minutes in a rather short period of time and then we can get to work on it so I would at least attempt to try and bring it back on the next meeting. Mayor Chmiel: That would be August 27th? Or excuse me, August 26th. Charles Folch: August 26th, that's correct. City Courl¢il Meetin~ ~ ~uguct 12, 1991 Resident: Don, are you saying that he's going to address the questions that were brought up or also the one that we wrote ii] ouF let~ers...? Mayor Chmiel; I think all these will be addressed. Those that we have in response ~.o the letter and questions. Resident: I'm wondering if something we're going to get together in some kind o¢ workshop? Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Maybe what you could do this evening is sort of come up with a timeframe to have thls workshop on a specific date. Bi].]. Engelhardt: I was going to say your honor, I don't think we'll have enough ti. hie to hold that work session with the property owners between now and the next C:ouncll meetlng and wrap up all the questions. So what Z'd 11ke to do is try and get the work session done between now and the next council meeting and then probably between that sesslon and the Councll meetlng after that have the questions addressed because we'll be able to go out and survey the properties with the property owners and meet with them and talk to them and see where we're at. Resident; We've got Labor Day in there [oo. Bill E,gelhardt: Yeah. So it's probably going to be, it probably would be the second meetlng in September. Mayor Chmiel~ Okay. That would be September the 9th. Do you have a deflnlte date you'd like to set up for this information that you wanted to? Bill Engelhardt: I think we should think about that. We'll notify the property owners. Mayor Chnliel: Everyone who's been assessed accordingly will get that opportunity of receiving a letter ulth the time and where it will be held to further that discussion. Counc117 Councilwoman Simler: Do you want us to comment? Mayor Chmiel: I don't know if we need a comment but if. Councilwoman Oimler: I just have a few questions that maybe I would like staff to address and one of them is, I'm not clear if we're discussing anyone who has al. ready have service prior to this project if they're being assessed twice. Also Z'd like to see someone address the economic impact on our city if ue don't assess until the properties develop of' until they hook up. And I'd like to see, to know when we pay the bill, can we carry the debt load until such a time and how this will affect our budget and our property taxes as a result. Mayor Chmiel: I think all those are the specific questions that have been addressed. Richard. Councilman Wing: That was my big question also. One I jotted down as we were going along. I don't fully understand the environmental impact to some of these 24 City Council Meeting - August 12, i$91 things. Are the new septic systems safe Charles and are they as positive as being described here or would the Clty long term benefit by trylng to force if you will or encourage people to hook up to sewer and handle it in one central posltlon so I guess if you could address the environmental issues of the septlc system, assuming that they're new and up to current standards versus if we were all hooked lnto the system. The other item uas you're excluding the people uest of TH 41 but the people uest of TH 41 probably have the greatest impact on the water quallty and pollution of Lake Minneuashta and shouldn't they maybe be encouraged to get in on this system. We were certainly encouraged to do so back in the 70's and I'm certainly glad we did. Mayor Chmiel.' Okay. Thomas? Councilman Workman: I say we call in the old Council. I remember when that big hole by Prine was being dug and boy was it deep and I knew that was going to cost somebody someday. I didn't thlnk it'd be thls close face to face. We bought bonds to finance this didn't we? So we're sort of all paying for this now. The MWCC, you just say those 4 letters, it w111 brlng the halt up on anybody's neck here. I think there's a unique situation here and I'm glad we're not golng to vote on this tonlght because I don't know how we can. I haven't heard an unreasonable argument in the room tonight. Every one of them makes sense. But we do have a unique situation. We have Jerome and Llnda Carlson's property which is a big piece sitting. The Song property. The Prince property. Maybe the Gorra property won't be developed. Maybe it wi11. I don't know. The development questlon is going to bother us and nag us for years and years to come and I don't know that we're the ones that are saying let's develop. I guess I'd 11kc to know the cost of us saying to somebody with a large developable piece of property, no you can't develop. I thlnk we'd have a real problem with that. People that own property develop that property. The City Counc11 does not. We know what happens when we get lnto the tangled mess of telling people what they can and cannot do wlth their property, let alone they're golng to have a sewer assessment, and so I don't want to get lnto that one. But this huge thing obviously took care of a problem. Eric, you're artlcle, if I know the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission and the Metrpolitan Council, they are the biggest supporters of sewer systems around. They want sewer systems. They do not want people to use septic, if it's my understanding. That's the only way I've ever heard it and that's why they have a MUSA line so we don't develop too fast to outgrow the sewer which maybe we have and I don't know but. I don't know how people outslde the MUSA line can be assessed unless we can flgure a way to get them ln. I just don't understand. There's so many unanswered questions in thls whole thing that I'm glad we're tabllng it. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, but we're not tabling. We're keeping the meeting open untll we get some of the questions answered. $o I'd like to thank you at least for coming out this evening. Offerlng your input and we will come back on September 9th wlth answers to the questions and then also Charles will be sendlng out a letter for those of you who have the lnterest as to each of your respective properties and how that was taken lnto consideration .... The questlon was, wlll the Councll be at that workshop. We sit on so many meetlngs that one more isn't going to make that much difference. Councilman Workman: But are these going to be addressed individually also? 25 C.[t? Col.tl,~.:i]. Mecl:ing - August 12, 1991 !'layo~ ChmJeJ.~ Yes. Ye,~; Lt~ey w~J], Resident: Wi.'I..'L a work sl~op date be published so those who might not be here ~o~ght uil], 9et it? Hayer chnmiel: I would think so. I think what we'll do is send out to everyone on the assessme~'li, ro11. So everyone will be notified. Resident' Of the workshop? blayor Cl'lmieJ. r Right. So thank yell. Appreciate it. ADOPT ASSESSHENT ROLL FOR FRONTIER TRAIL, PRO3ECT 89-10. Public Present: Name Address Jim ~, I_inda Idady l.la'rold &Leor, a Kerber G,.cYy Boyle 3ira Kraft P,~ul Oiffardin9 Wayne Hadst Craig & Oeborah Luehr Ed C. Jordan Jim Waletski Helen & Dill Loebl ~;teven gevquisi: Don King Pa~ Pavelke ~ebra Van Dyke 7338 Fror, l'.ier Trail 7216 Frontier Trail 7214 Frontie¥' Trail 7318 Frontier Trail 7228 Frontiev 'Frail 400 Highland grlve 7226 Frontier Trall 7~41 Fr'ontier Trail 7334 Frontier Trail 7197 Frontier Trail 7207 F'Yol]tier Trail 7200 Kiowa Circle 7203 Frontier Traii 7196 Frontler Trail 7303 Frontier Trail Charles Folch: Hr. Mayor, members of the Council. Our project consultant engineer Bill Engell~al'dt is here tonight to give a brief presentation on the project. ~Jll Engelhardt: Your honor, members of the Council. Again my name is Bill Englel~ardt. We're the cons~l~J, ng engineers on the project. This is the us~essmen'~ hearing for tl~e Frontier Trall lmprovenlent project. Just briefly, the way the project started ou~ was in July of 1990 ti~e~'e was a feasibility study completed to upgrade Frontlet Trail. We held numerous, Z won't say numerous. I should say two homeowner meetings where the property owners were invited to discuss the project. On September llth of 1990 a public hearln9 was held for the pYoject itself. That hearing was continued until October 4th of 1990 and on October 4tl~ the Clty authorized preparation of plans and specs. prepared those plans and specs a,d when they were compleLed we had ano[her public lnput meeting to review those plans with the public. 6o over the p'roposal. We made some modifications to (t and brought the project forward to Ll~e Counc11. I believe on Apr11 23rd of 1991 the pro~ect was authorized for construction. The original fea.'sibility study called for a project of $707,000.00. The total project cost now that it's completed is $620,000.00. 26 City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 The main reason for the drop in the cost was the sanitary sewer portion of the cost which is not being assessed. That is being paid for out of City trunk funds was lower than what was estimated. The storm sewer portion of the project, the bid also came in lower than what was estimated. The street portion of the project however did come in a little bit higher. It came in about $40,000.00 higher. The original assessment called for roughly $1,973.00 per lot based on 100 foot of frontage. That was a typical lot for a street assessment plus $1,632.00 for the storm sewer assessment. To date the street assessment is proposed at $23.73 per front foot or per foot of adjacent property and the storm sewer assessment is $14.40 per unit. The street assessment is approximately 40% or is 402 of the total project cost where the balance of the money is coming out of general obligation bonds and the reason for that was these people did have a street section up there before and the 40~ accounts for the curb and gutter and the increase in size built that street up to a standard city street section. So with that ue can maybe open it up to the public and address their questions. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you Bill. As I mentioned before, this is a public -- hearing and anyone who would like to address it, we'll try to keep it to the same $ minutes per or less. Those of you wishing to address this please come forward and state your name and your address. First one's always the hardest. Ed Jordan: I'm not the bashful type. My name is Ed Jordan. I live on 7341 Frontier Trail. I'm a little bit confused about the dates that I just heard relative to public meetings and announcements. I just moved in last year and I moved in in 1990 and my street was ail dug up so I don't know what the beck the timing or the dates you're talking about but it seems to me that some decision was made before I moved in there. At least on Frontier Trail. The question I've got is I've got two parcels of property. Maybe let the buyer beware should be my motto now. One of them is a little sliver of property which has up until the recent assessment had an assessed value of $400.00. I just got a bill for $5,300.00 street assessment related to it. Somehow I don't think that makes sense. I don't mind paying my fair share. I expected to pay around $4,500.00 when I bought the house and the total's up around 10 grand so I guess I'd like some consideration. Mayor Chmiel: And do you have your PID number with you now? Your parcel identification. Ed Jordan: Yeah, it's 80. Councilman Workman: 8200010? Ed Jordan: 'Right. That's the little appendage of property that I've got which I don't use it. It's just kind of sitting there and it goes along the street. Actually it goes in front of my neighbor's property. I don't malntaln it. Actually he maintains it. So it just seemed like it was a little bit out of whack there relative to the amount of money versus useage. I'm not sure, I'm presuming it's got to do with the length of footage on the road. That's my case I guess. Do you need a letter or something? Mayor Chmiel: Yes. If you have a letter that you wish to spend, we'll take that one. Anyone else? Thls ls your public hearing and those of you wishing to address it, it's your opportunity. 27 City Coull(.:L'~ H ...... ting -. 'Don KiI:9" l']! 'Lake 'tt~e second bite. I unde'retand first o'f all tt~at in order Lo be I~,~a'r'd or ,'~(;tion t~k~;r, that we mLt.SL, first Of ,~].1 Don Kir, g. 7200 Kiowa gj'rc].e, fhat w~.; must s,~bmlt all of our ob.]ections and comment~ in writing so I h~.~we my t:cr~tclm note:~ ~o please acc~pt my apologies for that, Lived in Chal]ha~sen for about 16 years here and I've seen many improvements taking place of whicl] it'~ nice to ~ee Kloua C~rcl~, Kiowa Tr~il I should ~ay fixed. What I'm very concerned about is the fact that startlng back in August of 1989 we had many informative meeting~ ,~nd Council meeLlngs to discuss how the whole plan was going to fall in place and the a~sessment ratio. As a result of all those meetings it wa~ left open regarding what that ratio would be. Huch to my ~urprJse I recelved my assessment sometime shortly after July 25th and it said nothing about the r~tlo. I m~de sever,~l calls to the City. T~].ked to Dave Hempel ~nd he Flnally vas able to work up the definition of that it was a 40/~0 r;zt.i.o and theft oacl-~ home h~d ~ fixed $1,360.21 per hom~ for ~torm sewer. I thlnk you s~ld $1,400.00 and something. H~ybe I mlssed a number here. Thls ~;cems to me that ~ft~r ~1]. the effort that we m~de to h~ve meetings z~]d ~he people ~11 along Kioua ul't~m our concern and interest, that Lrmere wa~ a complete ].a~:k of communication between the oiL>, and the residents upol~ that street of where thJ:~ ~'atlo was arrived ~t. In fact ~ listened very carefully tonight to ~'y to understand why did we arrlve at z 40/60. Zn this book here which was dated July 20, 1989 there were about 3-4 plans that were offered and it vas a 43/57 ratio th;~l: u,~s ldentJ, fied at that ti. me which we a].l pretty much had objected Lo. Z thlnk we ~11 realize the Fact that there ~111 be an assessment. The question is the f~[r~mess of that assessment. The number of years we've been here. The fact that there was ,~ substandard street to start ulth 'that was put i~m. To me, ~s f,~' ,zs Z a,m concerned and my wife are concerned, what benefits we've 9alned as far as value added Lo our home is purely the curb and gutter and the apron that I~as been ~.~dded Lo our driveway. Additionally there is a Lriz~ngular section of property uhlch the City had attempted to vacate but becc~mzse there's ,zn 8 i~]~::11 uat~rmain undei'~]ec~th iL, and Z have made a little sketch here of lt. ~ was unable to be vacated and I don't exactly kno~ what the status of tidal pZ:~ce of land is but Z t~11 you, it takes me armother hour or so to mow my yard now so thank you. I've added about $250.00 worth of Zmp~'ovement~ there and you can certaZly see out ti'mere that i've lived up to my part of the deal. That if you would come in there and landscape it and clean it ~p, Z would take care of it and i've done so. How the Lax assessment was flg[~red based on my comments ulth Dave Hempel was the fact that it followed the ,-~]'c o'F what was to be known as the old street rather than the new street which i..s ~bout ~ 20 some foot difference between the arc distance and the straight distance so Z would certainly like the ~traight distance to be considered the 3am8 as my n~l<jhbor ~zcross the street, Hr. HcAlplne. I'm further concerned ~[)out the condition left of KiouL~ Circle as a result of ali. the construction eq~[ipment that's been on t~mat :street. It's quite obvious that all the grease and oil a~]d dete~'Zoration of th,~t street has not been a result of Ursula DimZer tearing back and forth down that street nor any of our previous Cowrie11 members float no longe]' live there, because Z check her. r;oL[r]cilwoman Dimler~ Thank you. Don King: And .~ thlnk that that is an issue that needs to be concerned. There .~s al.s;o ."Lmpf'oper drainage in that particular area. Zn addltlon I've got p?'oJ]J.~;~!.s with my d'r'ivew~y. I t,.~lked to HueJ. ler who was your- main contractor I be].i.(:ve and he s:ubconLracted to repair and fix everyone's driveways. Z believe 28 City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 it's the same company. I'm having considerable trouble with this individual in fixing my driveway. It'~ falling apart. It hasn't even been a year old and I thlnk that's a consideration too. As I go up and down the street I see the same problom in existence. I believe that a ratio of about 10~ or less would certainly be considered. I believe that Klowa Clrcle should be repalred and this overall driveway issue needs to be addressed. The last issue I'd like to bring us ls the fact that we were told as a result of all the analysls that the traffic that we would see up and down Frontier Trall would not significantly increase. I want you to know it lsa racetrack and someone ls golng to get killed on that street. The street was made a jog at the very top of the hill purposedly to slow the trafflc down. Well I'll have you know lt's not. In fact the race ls usually down the h111 and I wait at night for a big crash at the bottom. I don't know how they make that turn. $o I would submlt what I have here in writing and my comments for your consideration. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Don. Paul Differding: Paul Oifferding, 7228 Frontier Trail. I guess my biggest complaint is I think the assessment amount is too high. Especially when you look at iny driveway. I mean I even work for a utillty company. If we came through somebody's yard and did that kind'of work, we'd never be back. Be allowed in the neighborhood agaln. I agree wlth Don about the speed. I thlnk it's gotten way out of hand. Elther we've got to put up some signs. I don't think there's a speed 11mlt slgn from all the way down Frontier Trail. At least we've got to get that and maybe some more police to slow it down a bit. That's a11. Mayor Chmiel: Can I ask you a question? Is it a repeater? Paul Oifferding: Some. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, we'll make a point of that. I always welcome vehicle registration numbers. I do wrlte them a letter and they are informed. Before they know it they're havlng tlckets wrltten. I don't like to do that. I don't wrlte th~m, the police do but we'll make sure that that's going to be addressed as well. Paul Oifferding: You know my driveway, I hope that if Mueller has to redo it [hat he doesn't get the subcontractor. I don't think I'll allow him to do the drlveway agaln. That's my oplnlon. He did a terrible, terrlble job. I submlt in my letter, I put a copy of the original driveway that I had done and I think Bruce Anderson who works for the City or Engelhardt who sold me the origlnal drlveway so he should know a little bit what was there to begin wlth and I expect the same thing back. Thank you. Mayo;' Chmiel: Charles, on this Mueller. Have we paid him off yet? Charles Folch: No we haven't. Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you. Anyone else? Craig Luehr: My name is Craig Luehr and my address is 722~ Frontlet Trail. Right next to Paul Differding's and I have a driveway very similar to his. Just 29 Council Heetin,~ - Au~.~ust i2, .1.9~1 a little history. We moved Ln May of 1990 and we were aware of tl~e work that WAS gOill9 to be dore oil the street &nd the :~eweF. The Asse:~.;smeRt that we received was very similar to what we were told that we would get so I don't have ,'.~ 'r'e.,~] bi9 beef wLth the ~ssessmen~ .tt this point but the letter that I submitted to you here at the beginning of this week pretty much sums up three tries. We've tt'ied to 9el LllLs driveway right and right now, last night trying ~o get mow my lawn I slipped and scraped my knee on it already so I would like to h,.~ve it replCzced 8nd put in ~tt least ~s good of a job as it was t~ken out. g~sic~lly the City, everybody agreed to replace the whole driveway because the change in the slope based on the slight difference in the new street compared to the old and that rendered the driveway basically unuseable. So we would like to oct something tl~at we can 9e~ completely clear of ice in the wi. liter and that we can get up and down so I would like to at least make sure that that is completed b~:for:; any assessment is fil~alized and I start paying interest on a job that I know ha.. been completed and is satisfactory so thank you Mayor chmiel: Good. Thank you. Anyone else? Steve Be'rquist: I'm Steve Berquist. I live at 7207 Frontier Trail and I have a letter that was prepared by u:;. It's been signed by a number of us neighbors as our concern for the assessments and some of the questions which are redundant ~nd some of tliem ~re not. Thank you. .Ti,I, Hady~. Hy r, ame is Jim Hady, 7338 Frontier Tra/1. Like many of my neighbors I also have some problems with the quality of the uorkmanship that was done on our .~:treet. I also have some safety problems. Those have been addressed. I won't go into those. What I'd like to spend time on is the amount of the assessments specifically. Although the assessment came in fairly close to what we were somouh~t to~d, it sour, ds like the project came in considerably under budget and our assessment:, my actual assessment from some of the initial things ,~ctu~lly went up. The ratio apparently changed. We should have been informed of what was going on at the end. I think the Clty mlssed a ~tep here. We :sl~ouJd have had a uo]-k sesslon prior to this public hearing and let all the i~format/on come out to us so we know what's golng on. I believe this project went. foru;~rd u~tl'mouL the residents really having a Firm idea of what it was golng to cost us. We asked for ita number of limes in front of the Counc11 and 1l u,~s k~nd of just let go until we kl]ow uha~t lhe actual costs were golng to be. Well, here we are and now we're being assessed. I have a further problem wlth ti~e assessmont ,snd it.'s a very 1,zrge one. We h~.~ve a 28 foot streot put in front of our homes. Real nlce. Curb ~o gutter. There's some problems with our driveways. Nine has problems and I'll be givlng you a letter that shows those but ~ have a real severe problem rlg~mt now with the amount of money we were being assessed For our street. Approximately ~11 of us are paying roughly $4,000.00 per parcel. The City is building, going to be bulldlng a street out im] Hinneuasht~ Parkuay, 28 feet curb armd gutter. Very, very similar streel to ours. As far as I can ~e11, maklng the exact street to ours. It looks 11ke in the paper ~hose residel~ts will be paying $750.00 per parcel. We're fully paying 5 times, actually more than S tlmes more lhan what these people u111 be paylng for the exact s{~nme street. We're looking at, I'm looking at ~n lssue of f,~irrmess here. Me ask that the City look at the system that Eden Prairle has whereby ~rmstead of ~sscssing homeowners, as stroets are reconstructed they a~ctually start, they bulld a furmd and everything comes out of the fund. It is fmz~d~.~d th~'ou~i~ gener,~], tax assessments. This gets back to sharing the cost 3O City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 through all parties instead of just those who actually have footage on the street. There are residents in our neighborhood who do not live on Frontier Trail who have to use Frontier Trail. They have no choice to get to their property. They're not paying for that street yet they have no access without it. There are a number of people who don't live on Frontier Trail. They live over in the newer development area. They come through our neighborhood quite quickly. This is a serious concern and they're not paying for this racetrack that we built. We are very, very concerned about in the neighborhood and we'd like to see the City meet with us separately and discuss this whole issue out before we go through and approve the assessments and I'll give you my letter'. Thanks. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks. Anyone else? Pat Pavelko: Pat Pavelko. Live at 7203 Frontier Trail and I guess I just want to echo some of the concerns that have been spoken here. I guess first of all, Frontier Trail at one time was a dead end or a cul-de-sac. The City Council at that time determined that due t~ the new development that went in at the top of Frontier Trail that the cul-de-sac had to be eliminated and opened through for the use of those people to use Frontier Trail. If indeed that is the case and that is tile reason for the elimination of the cul-de-sac, then again if the homeowners on Frontier Trail are assessed and the cul-de-sac was eliminated for those people, then the people up there should also share in the cost. In terms of the storm sewer I guess I've got a question. The storm sewer that was put in, are there holding ponds for the storm sewers before it goes into Lotus Lake? Bill Engelhardt: What we did is we went through and repaired the existing system. The exlsting system had a series of culverts and some catch basins... Pat Pavelko: Correct. You know when you talk about the home improvement or the improvement to your home in terms of the storm sewer that now has been put in and the sewage goes directly 1nfo the lake, really lnstead of the property increasing in value Z thlnk it has decreased in value. If you look at the lake by the storm sewers thls year you wlll see a tremendous growth in the weeds that have come up. Cropped up this year and that have not been there in the past. Zt's a severe problem as the Clty of Chanhassen decides to dump their sewage into the lake and hopefully somebody is addressing that in the near future. The third concern Z guess ls the speed and the safety of the street. As Z mentioned I live at ?203 which is right at the bottom of the severe curve and if you drive by and look at the curb, you can see the rubber marks of the cars that have bounced off or glanced off the curbs. There have been two accidents in that area in terms of the person that does the lawn, Z don't know exactly what address but he was backing up and a car coming down too fast was unable to stop in time. Ran into his equipment. Also we have a dog that jumped out of our little boy's hands. Again, chased a motorcycle and there's two kids on motorcycles that love to come down around the bend and see how fast they can go around the bend and still be able to hold onto it. Promptly ran over our dog. 20 some stitches to our dog. And I mean these are concerns or these are areas that really ue did not have a concern with prior to the newly paved street. It's definitely a racetrack. We have three children and I'm afraid that one of them at one time will be hit so I hope you take our concerns and lastly but not least I think what we're all here for is the 60/40 split. Again, I cannot see a 40 31 ..,.~,;~ I_... bo]rig._ abso'r'bed by the homeoune'.'r-~: on Frontier Trail on al'i existing street .tn t~-;rms o'f tl,.'~ 'r'ep~iLt. Th,'~nk you. Mayor Chmie].- Tha]lk you. Debra Van Dyke: Oebra Van Dyke, 7196 Frontier Trail. My husband's name is Put;-'..r 141zber. I I~ve a conoeFll tidal this was or I w~s told tidal, I thought ce' wore told that tl~J.c wac [he '[iFst street thai had been redone in the City of Cl~anhassen or that it ~,'zs (he ~zf~t time that it u;zs being, a substandard street u~s bei~9 bYought t~p to appropriate code or to city philosophy or whatever. I wa3 ~zndef' the iml~rcssion tiaa( because of that there were seveFal things that could not be addressed ,~s, this is our experience so this is what ue expect and these are thn costs. ~nd we were told, as I underst, and it, that ue could be broLtght up to d~te on tidal on a regulaY basis and that at the end, no that's not true. b~e we're told that ~o ~ould be brought ttp to dar. e on it on ~ regular basis. DLtrin9 the process of construction when ue asked various members and wLtSl'l'[ perso~ally involved but when various homeowners would ask the City what th~ com~s(ructlon costs were and how it was progressing, we were put off towards f.i'me el~d of the p~'oject, which we trust our City and our City Council. We were uJ.!).ing to do that. Ny concern is that we're setting a precedent here and h,~ve~m't a~ldressed our issues with how you went about setting that precedent. 'rh~s is ~ ~=ublic hearing and this is or~e place to start but I would like us to I,o .:tb.te to sit down ;~nd [;~lk, either on a one on o118 01' a 8Ball gf'OUp discussion to determine exactly what happened and why it's a 60/40 and that this is the icr'~.:cedent and 2 ye,:zf-s from now somebody else in ,~nother neighborhood is going to be able to make a stink and they're going to pay half the assessment that we're payi~,~. I wo~ld just itke ~o see it be laid ouL in a ~ay that we're comfortable with and see it happen for future residents as well. Is that correcL? Some of th,'.tt. There w,:~s one otl',er issLte tl'~¢~t I didn't heat' addressed and I really cl~dn't participate because we decided not to have our driveway 'redone by the C.(ty's co~]tr,:tc[or. ~e weYe planning ~o redo it a differen( ~ay but I understand Lhere's a qLtestJ, on as Lo the homeowner that paid to have their city redone b,~c¢~use of the apt'oil. You know they did r~ apl'oil. ~hatever it ~as, 15 feet or depending on the driveway. Ho~ far up. Okay, and then the contractor, Hueller, ~Ol.t]d go around and say ~ould you like us to finish your dr2veway. Retop ~t or whatever and here's the cost. I'm giving you a deal, which may or may not be the Lruth. But the question ~s, if we paid for, if the homeowner paid tgi' the driveway and the City ~as paying for the drive~ay, was there double dipping? Absol~ztely Resident.'. '.rhat's a good question. [.leb~'~t Val, Dyke-'. Okay. And ~he reason I'm bringing that up is let's decrease the cost J.f possible if the homeowners have already paid for it. Let's decrease · i:l,.c, cost and that's ,zll I hav.e. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. David W~llin-' My name is David Wallin. I live at 7303 Frontier Trail. I've b,'-;en .L~ Ch,~nhasse. n there for ,'~pproxJ, mately c~bout 12 years and been over in ,.¢¢rver ~each for- 9 1/2 years previous to that. It's a good city, Not necessar.t~y al~ays fair though and tl}at's uhy Z'm here tonight is I definitely don't agree wi. th how I'm assessed. Mx house is on a pie shaped lot. To the 32 City Council Meeting -- August 12, 1991 rear of my lot it goes to a point. To the front of my house, it's a big pie in front. Now what if my house was a little bit larger in a pie? Well then my assessment would be considerably more than what I'm assessed at this time at $6,358.76. I think that's very unfair. $o what you're asking of me Doll, and City Council, is you're asking me to pay a little bit more, quite a bit more lhan the rest of the neighborhood. Now how about another individual that this might come up to later in the city that happens to be on a pie shaped iot? Do you feel that you're being fait'? Excuse me. Would one of you address that question? Don, do you feel that that's fair? Direct question. Mayor Chmiel: In looking at what you have, I would say they're going by the assessed foot of whatever your lot is and that's what it's being assessed by. David Wallin: But is that fair? I understand what they're doing. Mayor Chmiel: In my position I would say yes at this particular time. David Wallin: Do you see my position? Councilman Workman: I remember we went over this in pretty great detail because it was a new situation. A new scenario and believe me we belabored the fairness question. Do you go by per unit? Per lot? Square footage? And correct me if I'm wrong Bill Engelhardt, this has been discussed on national levels and the front footage method has been proven most fair and that's why we selected it. Bill Engelhardt: That's exactly right. David Wallin: So that's exactly right? You're saying that this is the most fair? That my $6,358.76 is most fair to me? Bill Engelhardt: What we're saying is the method of assessment on front footage has been tested many times as being the most equitable way to assess a street project, especially in curb and gutters. And you can show a direct benefit to the property even though it is longer and wider than most properties. You can still show a direct benefit to that particular piece of property. I'm not saying it's fair. I'm just saying that's the way it's done. David Wallin: So when I sell my house I should tell the individual, if I sell my house, hey I've got more property out front. It's worth more out front. Bill Engelhardt~ That's very possible. You've got more frontage on the street. David Wallin: But lie says you've got nothing in the back. How would you react to t hat? Bill Engelhardt: I'm not going to. If you want us to look into it and evaluate it and get back to the City Council with what our opinion is, we can certainly do that. I'm not telling you that it's a falr and equitable way. I'm telllng you that that's the uay street assessments are done. It's been tested in the Courts. If you don't agree ulth it, you have recourse through the assessment appeals through Courts. You can certainly follow through from there. 33 C. if.y C, oLcr~c~]. M,'.~.o'i:i.l~S --August '-:2, J.99i Oavid Wal]in: Okay. Z[ definitely do disagree wi'ti', it a~d just a second ago you s,.~.td that lil~tt .ts 'fail' a~d l~ow you're just saying that it's not fai,r'. So as you cdn 3ct: there's .'some confusion here. It's definitely not 'fair when you ~tart rooking ,'~round and :.'...~kil',g que~tion~ and hearing whal other neighborhoods are bein~j assessed and how other cities a'r~ picking up so much more and making it a 1.tttl~ bit more faiY lo tho rest of the people. I'm starting to hear things, I'm sorry I don't have all my information correct but in the City of Chanhassen tJ~e of~e street that was redo~,o. Oidn'~ the city pay for most of ~l~at? Wasn't the~e p,r'ecedence already kind of set? Mayor Chmie].: Not 'to my knowledge. Oared Wall.i.l~.'. Who paid for the boulevard? M~yor Cl',l,i,'~.l: Which specific street are you ,r'efer~'ing to? Lake Lucy? Minnewa:~hia Parkway? ~..CJIJ. Ilci.].|fl&ll wo,r'klfl~:l.l'l: Downtown? Mayor Chmiel; Some of those are County State Aids. They're dollars that are alJ. ocated from the State for those of which offset some of their costs. Which ~re 'the basic collectors. Resident: Our's is a collector too. D:.~vJd Wallin: How about t. he boulevard in Chanhassen? Who's assessed for 'that? M~in street. Mayor ChmJel: 78th Street? Wallin' Tile main st'ree, t in Chanhassel~. Mayor Chmie].~ ~ach of the businesses within and property owners adjacent 'to it. O.'.~vid Wa.!lil,' And could I ask what they were assessed? Whal percentage? Does anybody know? Todd Geri,ardt: 100%. Mayor Chmiel-' I think it was 100~ totally if I remember. David Wallin: To the businesses? Okay. l'l~at naturally doesn't pertail~ to us then does ].t. Cour, ciJ. womar~ D[Inler: We could do that. Mayor Chmiel; Nice try. David Wallin: We have to strike 'that from the record. Excuse me. You can see my concern thol.tgl~. As being one of tile highest assessed property owners in that :l.S,i. ghborhood, ]"m just looking for fairness here and I'm just wondering how you ,:t:.'~ a City COUl~Cil can help me. 34 City Council Meeting -- August 12, 1991 Mayor Chmiel: I understand where you're coming from like I mentioned before with my own assessment, It gets a little testy in total amount of dollars, I see there's another one here that's $6,812.00. David Wallin: That must be number one. Mayor Chmiel: I think you're running a close second. No, you're about third. Oavid Wallin= Well I'm looking for help from you folks. I'm looking for some fairness. I agree with most everything that these people said in regards to the information that we were given early up front and a little bit of the confusion that came down as to how we really could have gotten together to make it a little more fairly assessed, Mayor Chmie!: I thought we did, or we tried to do probably one of the better assessment hearings for this previously at construction phases as we went through. I thought we tried to be as fair with everyone concerned in this specific project, We took a lot of time. We held a lot of hearings. We had a lot of open meetings. We had a lot of informational meetings of which has never been done before in this city. We're continuing to do that with every project that we have going through. At least so people have the understanding and the say within each of these particular projects. I think what we're looking at here is what normally what you have is what you pay for accordingly. It's the footage that really gets to that point. Now whether it's in the front or in the back, if you took your lot and turned it around it'd probably be much more to your benefit but of course you can't do that. So with your footage as you have up front along that street, that's what you have to go by. That's what we have to go by. We try to be consistent within each of these particular projects as well. As we have done before and as some of the Council has done previous to US. David Wallin: I understand what you're saying but I don't agree with it and that's wily I'm here. And you say that's what I have to go by. No, that's not what I have to go by and that's why I'm up here and I'm looking for help from you folks. Okay. I've got a letter I'll be dropping off to you and is there any timeframe as to when you'll be notifying us again as to what's happened from this meeting? Mayor Chmiel: I think I'm probably going to go through the same thing as we did with the previous public hearing. Is probably keep the public hearing open and respond back to the respective questions that each of the people brought up because I think answers should be given, David Wallin: 6kay. And one more concern that I had. When this was brought up before I was up in regards to the street which was actually a dead end. Now it's a thru street. It was never to be a thru street and the City Council was actually going to be putting some type of bumps in the road there or some type of barrier that a fire engine could actually break down or something. They did not want to make it really a thru street. Mayor Chmiel: That was before our time. Ail of us on the Council. 35 C.;.t? CO~tllCil Hr.~.ct.[l'~§ -- AI. LgU. St 1Z, 1993. OavJ. d Wallin: But s~:e that's yottr problem. You came J. nto that sea[. You [nhr.;rit all tho:se pr'obi, ems. Actually they're not prot)lel, S, they're c:oncer~s. Hayer ChmJ. el: May i sa)' something? I),'~vid Mallin: Absolnt~:ly. Mayor Chmiel'. I don't warlt to use my gavel this evening. I'm saying that yes, wo'v.'..,. Lnhe~tted that giverl p'roblem but that street is presently a thru street as it. is ~ow. There were some people who trled to stop that street from going througl~ from some past t)~formatio)~ tl~at I have read by putting up dirt and a lot of other things to deter those people from u'tllizing Frontier. Now the ,',ccessibilit7, ev()~) in drivln9 anywhere else. Everybody gets a chance to use a driven street no matter where it ls. Whetfmer lt's on my street or anywhere ~;].se. I cam~'t stop someone from LtSillg it. I can't put a toll road out in that road. Everyone has an accessibility to [hat street. Streets are part of city property ever, thougl~ residents have to pay for it. David Wallil~: I agree. Then the percentage that the City should be picking up on this p,&rtlcul~r situ,~tion should be more than right now wl~at is assessed to i~. lhai'.'s Jny col~cern. Mayor Chmiel"- We thought at the time the 60/40 was a very adequate split at t I1,',,i_ i~ar't i~'.ular David Wallin: I appreciate your- looking into this agaln and thank you very inLtch. Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else? P.,.ill Loebl: Bill Loebl, 7197 Frontlet Trail. I have some questions concerning the numbers and ]; believe Hr. Engelhardt will be able to answer-most of them for' me. The first questlon I i~ave concerns 'tile street reconstruction uhlch is 14~ I~igher-, 14.6Y, h.igl~el' than tile origi~lal estimate. Yet co~versely tile storm seuer came Jr, 16.6~ lower thal~ the orlglnal estimate. Then on the sanltary sewer, which was estimated at $223,314.00, tile actual, came in at 93. I'd like air a~]swe'¢ why. Were some corners out or was it not necessary to repair as much? This .is one of the questions I have. And then ill addition, there is an item on here in the final bilJ. of $47,371.00 for the uatermain construction which was not evem~ 11sted .i.n tile feasibility st~dy. Now as far as the front foot method ls concerned of paylng for lt, there vas a petltlon presented to the Councll which was signed by 33 of the 47 homeOUllers a~d they all were in favor of the front foot method. The 33 represents something in the neighborhood of ?0~ of ~11 the residents. So ther~;'s a clear Ina]ority of people who would prefer that method and lo and behold when the assessment b111 came ln, I flnd that the storm s~.;uer assessment is o1~ a per lo~ basis and not on a front foot basis. If J.t I~ad been on a front foot basis, my b111 would have been $500.00 less than it ls now. Also the figure, the front foot figure of $23.95 which we're being assessed, I'd ].J. ke to know how that was arf'lved at. I thlnk tl~at it was arrlved at taklng 40~ of the street and add 40~ o-r the uatermain construction because when you add the two Figures together you come up with a front foot basls of $23.86 per front foot. Also we were told that th~,.' three properties on Kiowa Clrcle are going to be assessed $1,360.00 for the storm sewer'. Now if you dlvlde 50~ of the storm 36 City Council Heeti]~g - August 12, 1991 sewer upgrade by 57 properties instead of 54, you come up with a storm sewer assessment of $1,288.00 lnstead of $1,360.00. So I'd 11kc that explained if possible. And flnally I want to add my volce to the people who were complaining about unsatisfactory driveways. Our's is in a similar condition. It's crumbling. Grass ls growlng through the cracks and I'm afrald in 2 or 3 years we may have to redo the whole thing again but of course I'm not expert. Also we lost 2 trees of whlch we were never reimbursed because the street in front of ouT' property, as you know 8ill is 3 feet lower than the old street and in order to match the-new street, our property had to be regraded to a considerable degree and that's why we lost the trees. That's all I have. Thank you very much · Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Bill. 8111Loebl: Oh, Mr. Mayor. I don't have a letter. Is it necessary to write one? Hayer Chmlel: No. Z think your testimony wlll provlde that. Dill Loebl: Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, if hearing no others, I'm going to do the same thing because I think these questions have to be addressed. I don't like to see anythlng ramrodded through. I don't 11kc to have that done to myself and I don't intend doing it again this evening. We will look at each of these respective questions and answer those. I thlnk thls, can we get thls back on September 9th also? Will that give you enough time? Okay, that's what we have. So wlth that, this hearlng w111 remaln open. It will be continued until September 9th and many of these drives I think should be looked at. I know there ls one speciflc one that Ursula had called me on that she had gotten a complaint on. It is a washboardy driveway. There's no question. I get a llttle nervous drlvlng in and out every tlme wlth all those bumps. 8ut these will all be looked at and all be addressed in fairness and thank goodness we've not pald the particular contractor in full yet so we can get this rectified. So with that I thank you for comlng in this evening and I think we're st111 going to have Counc11 have some input at thls particular tlme. Councilman Workman: I don't have any comments at this time other than to say Hr~ Wa111n, and most everybody who are probably thlnking ~ust like hlm. I know we were very nervous abou[ this situation. We can blame the Lake Ann Interceptor on a previous Council. Thls one we can't. However, most people realize that the road needed to be repaired and it wasn't going to be cheap. We are very concerned, I thlnk the Hlnutes point out that we talked at great length on how we were going to assess this and I think we looked at 15 other cities to see how they dld it because it was new for us. Clearly we spent an awful lot of time. That doesn't mean it's fair. We're frlendly or anything else. That's for sure. If there's st111 something we can do, I sure hope so but I know that [he effort was there when we put this thing in. I think we're going to continue to do that so I'm in favor of keeplng the public hearing open also. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Richard? 37 Cj Ly C. oL~r~c.i.i 14, e'.oi;.n.g ~. Augu:si 12, 199! C.o;~nc.J. lma~, W.l. ng' Xo t:ii". T;',i~: has prover, a losc~o~, to me~ Oo~','t ~ver pu'rJ:~o Doll, jllS~. '~oF information is th~ tTadJ.~iOll~ ~$Sessi~g goifmg to Lhe users ,.t~d tho cost (Jr tho~:~e in t. oday's dollars. The Stale tax system has an unlimited ~t'La(.:J; on Lt~ r~ght now. ~e saw what the assessments were and our va}uat~ons going wi; ct;md propeYty taxes going Ltp. And as a City Council we can reduce them ]k I)[tt thc~ state can conme in al~d do anything they want. I'm st111 stunned at i.l~.;.s past ye~"r; t,~x,'z'l..io~m a~d then ~o come up with these assessments, for me p~:rsonally, it's difficult to slt here and assess them. Z don't want anybody ~u~essil~g ,me becaLt::;e with 3 in OOJ. leg~, I don't want the burden. So what do we do? T ~us[ want to look into alternatives and options to city projects and how thcy'r~¢ mos1. fairJ, y h,'tl~dZed and perhaps ~11 of us would prefer to have ~ slight J.n(;re~;se in ~axes. Overall. general taxes and .just have the City do these on H,'-~yor ChmJ. e].: We don't know what that entails as yet. Councilmall Wirlu' Yeal~, ::see I dotl't know what that el~tails and I'm sure you don't elther so I don't want to take credlt for any of those comments other than I'm interested to know ~l~at the options ~re ,and ho~ we might betteY handle tl~is al~d Hr. Wall. in with that large assessment. It's frightening. Just because I .live Oil a r;or'~of' i'm goillg to owe $2,000.00 more. My ilmtel'est is what are our optJ. olls for tho futLtre. COUrlci]woman OimJer.' I ~gree with most of tile things that were said here. I do have to say a few posLtive comme~ts however and maybe some of you will remember. I know memories are short but I think that mos[ people favored the project. F,~vor~.~d the upgrade as I rec,:~J..1, the public hearing process before. Also, I thJ.~mk Lhat the process al. though was very messy, I thlnk that we have 'Lo give the (lek, eloper' ct'edit [l'm,zt they were very respo~sive to individual cases and when we (.:c),J,p]aJ. ned t. hey ~er3 there. They 'took care of it. So it wasn't totally nec']afire b~tt i'd a.t:so like to say that I'm as surprised as a~yone here at the 60/40 split. From a].]. of the discussions before and Z remember that I did a lot of that discussing, ~ i:hougl~t that ue were goillg to go with the 70/30 and Z had cuej', me~tioned an 80/20 because the road was substandard to begin ~ith. I'm not '.~u'r'e that CoLtl~oi]. sv~F voted on the spl.f.t. I (l~)n't know where that decisio~l mad,~ and I think that. ue should rethink that and reti~ink ~he 70/30. M:t;,or Chmiel: Thank you. Appreciate everyone coming this evening and we w111 dot;late about a ]0 second i'ec:ess. TROENDLE ADDITION, SOUTH OF PLEASANT VIEW ROAD AND WEST OF VINELAND FOREST SUBDIVISION, FRANK BEDDOR: A. AMENDMENTS TO CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL. B. APPROVE DEVELOPMENT CONTRACT. C. APPROVE PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS FOR STREET AND UTILITY IMPROVEMENTS. M;~yor Chmiel: Paul, why don't you start this and give us some information. I'll ].et Cour, ci.1. pick that Ltp ,'tS they nme standing out in the hall. Paul Krauss: The applicants are requesting final plat approval with some r~:vi:~cd condiLiorls for tile plat known as the Troendle Addition. City Council 38 City Council H¢.,'-~ting --August 12, 1991 approved the preliminary plat last January of this past year. The plat originally and still ultimately is designed to create 15 single family lots. One of those will be occupied by the existing farm house, the Troendle home that is located on this parcel here. Tile rest would be open for new development at some point ir, time. Ultimately the farm house, it's a life estate situation. The farm house would be removed and a new structure put on the property. Access was a primary concern during the review of this plat. The design ultimately calls for extension of Nez Perce through to Pleasant View. This dates back to the orignal Vineland plat whlch occurs over in this area. Basically Alternative 3 was one of 6 or ? alternatives that were reviewed by the Council and the one that was selected for maklng the thru road. Thls was vlewed as the thru road connection that would take place in stages because there are at least three properties that had to be crossed. The three properties include the Vineland Forest plat which today is building out. The Troendle property which is today up for flnal plat and the parcel owned by Art Owens whlch ultimately we belleve is going to be developed but has been in a bankruptcy proceeding for the past year or two. The residents along Lake Lucy Road ralsed some concerns wlth thls plat at the tlme it was approved. It was their concern that Lake Lucy Road, by bullding thls thlng in phases that as properties develop 1nrc here, that the only means of ingress and egress is Lake Lucy Road, which is true. It's a temporary overlength cul-de-sac situation until the road's connected. They have 'raised a concern that the traffic levels on Lake Lucy Road, which lsa collector street. It's a low callber collector in that area, would be burdensome, particularly I believe their concern had to do wlth construction traffic. There was an alternative scenario developed. It was ultimately approved with the plat that called for phased development. Basically what was originally anticipated was I belleve 6 lots would be developed in the flrst phase. Four of those lots would access off of Nez Perce. That basically included everything north of that polnt. What was lntended at that polnt in tlme ls that the second phase, the rest of the cul-de-sac would be opened up for development at the time that the Art Owens property ls developed and the thru street can be connected. That was the condition that was attached to preliminary plat approval in January. We since had a serles of discussions with the applicant and I belleve there's a basic equity issue that's arisen. The developer, and they're here tonight and they can represent themselves, ls concerned that lt's somewhat inequitable to put development decisions for a given piece of property completely on the shoulders of an individual who has no connection to this parcel. Flrst of all that property is in bankruptcy. Mr. Beddor I think has expressed some interest in the property but is unable to complete any transactions until the property comes out of bankruptcy, even if he did proceed. And secondly, it puts the City in a cttrlous posltion of deferring decisions on a private property owner's shoulders. Not in the Council Chambers but based on a private decision. There's also the possibility that, a significant possibility that there's increased cost engendered by phasing construction. You basically have to call out the construction crews twice. Once to build the first phase street. The second time to come out and build the cul-de-sac. The cost is not only related to street improvements but also to utility extensions and getting crews out. Having crews set up is a significant percentage of the job and it does raise the price. However, staff and the applicants as well recognize that there was some validity in the concerns that are being raised and we tried to come up with an alternative that would secure the Clty's future enabllng us to have some, very strong likelihood that the street would be completed in a reasonable period of time. Yet to let the development proceed for the Troendle Additlon in a Ci. ty Counci.1. HeclJ. ng --Au.gu~t i2., 199]. rea:sonable mallne, r. What's been p'roposed is 'LllJS. It's that the development th~.~t FOil see before you tod,t~y wom. Lld be d:)ueZoped ~.~s phase 1 with the bc~lance of tJ~e ultimate 3 addJ. tlonal lots being iii Lhe outlet. Now that would put most of th~ lo'ts, aZ]. but olme of th~ lots that would access off of Nez Perce i~ at this point in time. Now of course development8 don't build out overnight. It takes · ~ ~ ' 1 · =~ ~o 3 to 4 years :sonm~..imes to r.~,.1 it up. Wh~t else is being proposed with this is we, our engineerlllg department dld an analy~ls of ~he co~t share that ~.;ould occur ~o complete t111:s roc~d. Essentially we believe that whoever develops the A'r~ Owens property ~ill be 11able for this expense. Zt traver~e~ t helr p~oper~y. ~t's directly :~ berlef.Lt to theft pa'Foci. Amid ~ould norm,'~lly be their r~spon~ibility. At iS:SL~e though is ~hat happen~ when we curve thls back fromm Peaceful L~ne. We need to rebuild this intersection~ We know it's not very safe. We w~nt to n~rrow the pavement. HopeFully free up ~ome right-of--way o~ ~h.Ls side ~s th~-~ ro,~d curves b~::k down here. Th~s section of street i~ ~ometl'm.ing that ~e belleve should be ~ttrlbuted to people tha~ develop on these F.~r:se]_s her:~ ~ well ~.~s people theft develop on the Troendle Addition. Our eng~neerin9 department ha~ trled to estlmate the cost oF that, making that Fi. hal con~ec~inn. Zt'~ al)proximately $20~000.00. The amount of lots that wilI be ~ev~.~loped on the Owens property is pretty close to wh~'s being proposed on the Troelmd[~'s so there ~s ~.~bou~ A $10,000.00 cost split. The ;~pplical~ts for the Troend].e AddJ. t.ion are wtllirmg to place in escrow that $10,000.00 so you can ~void 9oirl9 ii,rough another olme of the heAr.~mlgs that you've h~d sever~l of tonJ. ght where yot~ try to 9o back in and a~ess people after the fact for :~om~meti~ing ~fter they're ~l~'e~dy living the[e. You would have the money sJ. tting in the b~nk. You'd be ready to go. ~n ~ddi~ion to that we ~ould have our norm~], procedm~rec of constructin9 ~ temporary cul-de-s~c...~t that point there. There ~ould be a b~rrlcade. The bar'rlcade ~ould have a slgn on it ~aying that this, clear].y that th~s stree~ is intended to be extended. There ~ould be T]oL~.oe~ placed in the chain of ~itle of e~ch of tho lot~ in there ~o nobody would b~-~ ~ble to come before you in th~ Future and objec~ to the ex,em]sion of ~ cul-.de-s:c on the ba~ls that they h~d no knowledge of it hopefully because they c:er~,~J, nly would. And that we exp~ct, we have ~n expectation. We can't commit for' when pl'operties develop on the Art O~ens parcel but it appears that thlng~ ,.~r~ moving tow,~rds some so~'t of conclusion over there ~nd it'~ not unrealistic to ~hlnk that this ls going to happen before the Troendle Additlon ls bullt out. Ag,'~im'l ~ cA~]'t commit to it but that's the way it appears. So with that we be].J, eve that ~he revlsed stipul:tlons of g. pproval for this are reasonable to the ~xt~.~nt that they seem more equitable to the developers of the Troendle Addition and they also achleve the goal that we have of completing that extesmslon for the ro,~d in a l-e~sonAble period of time. Otllerwise the pl,~t i~ pretty ~imple. l'hey 'responded to mos~ of the conditions that we've laid down for the flnal plat. Z toou]d ~dd too theft there w,~s ~ v~ri~nce that c~me up For some discussion relatlve Lo the existirmg farm house with the origlna] plat proposal. The ;.~pm)iic~nt w~s ~ble to secure some additional right--of-w~y in Vineland Forest to take the ki'l~k out of the road so it doesrm't jog ~s close to that home a~ it dld once before ~nd the v~ri~mlce Ii~s been eliminated in the process. So we think ~.'s ~ pretty c!ean proposal a~ thl~ polnt in tlme and ~e are recommending that you approve J.t t,~ith conditions in the st~ff ~'eport. Th~nk you. ?l~yor Chmiel: Thank you P~ul. Co,.tncJlman Workman' PAul, quick question. I .,;us[ have a very quick question. 4O City Council Meeting -August 12, 1991 Mayor Chmlel: Okay. Councilman Workman: Did the Art Owens property go into some sort of condemnation? Paul Krauss: It was in bankruptcy. We've called the State Attorney General's office. It's supposed to come out of bankruptcy in the not too distant future. I belleve Jules Smlth, the Attorney for the applicant may have some more current information on that than I have but we're understanding that the State wants to accelerate this process and get the cash out of it and get it back on the market. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anything that you'd 11ks to address on thls first part of it? At least the revlew of the conditions that staff has also put ln. Z'11 ask anyone else if there's anyone here who would 11ks to address the particular proposal as well. Oaryl Fortler: Daryl Fortler here to represent Frank Beddor Jr.. Also wlth me is 3ules Smith, Frank's attorney. We're pleased to have had the chance to work ulth staff and to go over the proposal in more detail. We're in agreement with all of the staff report but ue would ask for clarification of one point which we think ls an oversight. On point 8 they point out that the gravel driveway to the Troendle residence is to be eliminated. We were asking originally that Hr. Troendle have a 11fetlme estate and ue not dlsturb hls residence. We would still ask that that grave1 drlveway be allowed to exist as long as there is only one lot. Zf ue request a bulldlng permlt or if we subdivide and get another buildlng permlt for the front lot, we completely agree to remove the driveway. But until then, as long as there's only one drlveway access and Hr. Troendle ls using lt, we request that we be allowed to keep that. I thlnk that was met with favor before. Paul Krauss: We have no objection to that your honor. In fact it goes a 11ttle bit to responding to some of the issues of keeping more of the traffic off of Nez Perce in the lnterlm. We just ask that that condition be wrltten lnto the chain of title of that lot so that the new owner ls made aware of it. Daryl Fortler: Secondly, if I could just take a few minutes. It's running late. I'll try to summarize the roadway issue. The extension of Nez Perce. We favor the extension of Nez Perce as we previously dld. Mr. Beddor would 11ks to see this proceed. He unfortunately has no means of maklng it happen. We have agreed to accept additional assessments to help pay for the extension of Peaceful Lane up to Pleasant View Road. We believe that the Art Owens project when it develops u111 be sufficient to plck up the remaining cost. Thls should prevent adjacent neighbors from having any additional tax assessments. We have contacted the State and we have contacted Hr. Owens. We've been working closely with him. We're optimistic that something u111 be occurring within 2 years and that Nez Perce wlll develop on lt's own volition. Both the State and Hr. Owens have expressed interest in seeing the development occur. There are still a number of lssues to resolve so we certainly cannot step forward and purchase the land at this time and Hr. Beddor £s not a residential developer so his interest ls of course very 11mlted. Regarding the prevlous proposal and why it was found to be very much a hardship on Hr. Beddor's development. His interest here has always been to give Mr. Troendle a 11re estate and to dlsturb his property as 41 CiLy Council i~er~.i:J, lt9 --~[[gu~t J_2, i991 mii~imally as possible. The previous proposal assumed 'Lhat Lhere would be four developments on wllat is Mr. l'r'oendle's property. In fact there'd be zero as we're proposing 'now. Th.is meanL t. hat Lhe previous proposal would have required Mi'. Be(ldoF to spend over $400,000.00 to develop 2. lots. That's very much a hardship. The value of the two lots would probably be $?0,000.00 to $75,000.00. That's T. gLteS3 enough s~tid about the co:st issue. ~e are optimistic however that this proposal still makes sense even though it is a long cul-de-sac. It does offer a way out. Unlike Fox chase which is next door at 2,500 lineal feet, 72 · residences. Fox Chase Ilas no way to get a second egress. This proposal does. Nez Porte can be pushed across the ~rt Owen property even if the 6ity must go to condemnation. That's something of course beyond our powers. I guess that realty summarizes it unless there are any questions. Mayor Chmie].~' I have just one question in relationshp to the plat in itself that we have. ).l noticed that the name on that is Milton F. Highland, Land SuFveyor. Minnesota License ~20262. It appears as though someone else has signed a name ~.o that under that license number which I understand is not allowable. Oaryl ForLier; I haven'L caught that myself but I do understand that Lot 5u.r'veys is the company that has prepared it and that Mt-. Ray Prasch, the former owner has sold the firm recently and there has been a change of ownership. Mayol' Chmiel.' I~ says Raymo;~d A, Pease. Daryl Fortier: Prasch? P-r--a-s~c--h. Mayor Chmiel: It could very well be but the name that's there to the name that's above ls not legally done. Oaryl Fortier'~ We can certainly get that correct before final, plat is filed. Hayor Chmie].: Is there any other questions by Council? Richard, do you have somet hing? C:ouncilman Wing: This goes back to the landscape ordinance. We're on the verge of some changes and improvements, Thls area was a hardwood forest [urned to soybean fleld, Now lnto houses. Mr. Mayo-f, if you would lndulge me. Hayor Chmiel; Cer[ainly. Councilman Wing: Mr. Workman I'm sure will have something to say after. Is there a possibility that we could just ask the developer if he wouldn't consider a lit. tls additional landscaping such as has been proposed in [he landscape ordinance. Right now we require that they put in one punitive tree if you will and I've asked that the ordinal'ice be changed to reflect a total of three trees. 5mall cost but we've got another soybean field going f.o homes here without much landscaping. Per-haps they're intending to put trees on these lots themselves. I don't know. I hate to, I wlsh we could elther ~hrow that landscape ordinance out or get it in a fix so as these developments are coming in we could start c~.~tchlng them right now rather than driff, ing into the future. 42 City Council Meeting -- August 12, 1991 Mayor Chmiel: I think if I remember correctly what the Planning Commission suggested that they stick with the 17 Paul Krauss: No Mr. Mayor. Actually the Planning Commission is considering I think acting favorably. They haven't done it yet on Councilman Wing's suggestion that they look at 3. It was scheduled for last week's meeting and because of several items on ahead of it, ue just didn't get to it. It's now being scheduled for our next meetlng. At this point in time though there's not an ordinance of course on the books that we can require anything but you can certainly make an inqulry. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. There was some discussion but they didn't go into it fully but there were some leaning to posslbly going to those three but I don't know what thelr declslon or recommendation ls golng to be elther. Councilman Wing: I just see another open field being developed without much future for the Clty and it's a little frustrating. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion? Is there anyone else that has anything to say? Brad Johnson: My name is Brad Johnson. I live at 1001 Lake Lucy Road. We first were notlfled that there were some changes coming up here by a letter that we recelved last Thursday. Apparently there's been discussions golng on wlth the Clty for quite some time and nobody had the courtesy to contact us or inform us that anything was going on. That there was consideration here to approve the whole thing. We left the meeting last January believing that it was the way Paul had stated and now all of a sudden everything's changed. We have heard everything discussed here tonight except our concerns about safety and traffic. We would think that that would be appropriate slnce that was the basis on whlch the decislon was made last January. That that would be discussed here tonight. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. I think that through our new slgn requirements that we have for developing properties. Was a sign put up Paul? Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, I believe this started before the signs came out. Now we did take the step, we were concerned that this was a change in condition from which you originally considered. Now we don't normally notify neighbors of final plat approval. In this case we took the step of dolng that because we belleved that they may want to have some comments and some lnput for that very reason. It's tough to notify people when you're talking to somebody about thlnklng about dolng something untll the proposal materializes and that's what we're attempting to do tonight. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Appreciate that clarification because that was some of our concerns before. People not knowing what's really happening so we've instituted signs to be put up. But this goes back prlor to that particular tlme. Even though a situation occurred, still maybe the signs should have gone up somewhere indicating that this is still the situation. Brad Johnson: We didn't realize it was a different approval coming up... City Council. Meeting .. August Councilnlan gJn~: In regard Lo thei'r property.~ I guess I'm missi~g what's changed. I k~ou the dl.scussiol~ of tl~e corner a~d tile width of the road and your concern..~ I guess I'm not, what changes have occurred here? Paul Kr~u:~s: What's changed prima'rily is that there was, keep in mind that the applicarlts first proposed and we recommended approval of the entire development going at this ~ime o~ ~he presunlption that i~'s staged approval or construction of ~he street. When the residents raised the concerns that they did in January- g;~,cember', there was sor~ of an atlernate scenario developed ~nd that was approved by the. Council and what ~hat said was ~o develop the property in two phases. The first phase would only have $ lo~s, 4 of which would access off of Nez Perce. The remaining development was contingent upon the road being completed. I':omm~cilman Wing: gut the intersection and the tre~tmerlt of the road to the west o~' the non--existJ, ng road, now tha~ hasn't changed. Zt's sti].l golng to be straighten out and slght lines. Pat~), Krause; TIl,~t'~ still certainly the plan, yes. Mayo'r Chmiel: Okay, is there any other discussion? Ursual, did you have someLl~ing? ComtncJ. lwoman gimlet: I guess just as I was reading through this I did [hink [.ha[ Lhe comment Lha( it isn't f~ir Lo hold up ~ development For one resident, I 9ues.'; I agree with that. I thi~k we should go ahead and al. leu them to be do mucli ~s we legally can. I'm not sure right now if I would agree with the condemr, ation process. I'm not quite sure the timing is right on that. Mayor Chmiel-' Yeah, that sort of remains to be seen and not to determine what's goilmg to lake place for the City as to what action should be done by the City. It wi].1 be at tile discretion of the Council. at that particular time. PAtLt] Krauss: Mr. Mayor, if I can expend on that too. We asked the City Af. torney to do some inves(lgations back when if the desire was there, if we could actually proceed wlth the condenlnatlon and put the road through today. l'he answer we got back was no, we could no( as long as the property was in bankruptcy. You could condemn it but you couldn't assess any of the costs relative to running the r'o~{d across there which means the City would have to absorb the entlre expense. That seems unrealistic and also as you polnt out we wouldn't recommend tha~ you commi[ future Councils to ~aking a certain actlon. What you may wish Lo do though is schedule thls thlng to come back up in 18 months or 24 months so that you can reassess the situation at that time, if you hav~.n't already recelved the development for the Art Owens parcel. Hayor Chmie],: (]k~y. Very good. Arty other? Jim Stassen: Jim Stassen. I live at 6400 Peaceful Lane which is on the corner Wllerc we'Ye Lalkil~g ,~bout getting :straighten out. On the, Paul? The other plot you have witl] the road going through, my chief concern wlth this is st111, .~ · realize the road's golng to go through. We weren't informed when this first t l;ing was golng to happen so we could come in and vote for our proposal to go str;z[ght through from Nez Perce straight up but we've kind of given up on that. 44 City Council Heeting - August 12, 1991 I still don't, if we're going to straighten out the corner that exists now and make that, get that more squared off and then go back and put another rounded corner right down at the other end of our lot, that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I don't understand why that road can't come out to a T into Peaceful Lane like a normal street would. Maybe even a stop sign there. There's no reason that the traffic's got to be flying through there. It sounds like Frontier Trail has that problem and why create any more of those. I guess that's my main concern. Mayor Chmiel: Peaceful Lane serves probably about what, 1, 2, 3, 4 residences? 3? Councilwoman Dimler: 3. Mayor Chmiel: Including Art. Okay, I thought there vas 4. Councilman Wing: Why isn't that a T? Paul Krauss: There's basically two reasons. First of all from a design standpoint when you design a thru street, you typically design it to favor the thru movements. That's common practice. Unless there's traffic control situations that you want to deal with. I guess I'd have to fall back on what I said in 3anuary in that it's premature to, ue haven't designed the street yet. We haven't designed that section yet and when ue do there will be public hearing opened up. We can certainly look at that alternative at that point in time. This is a concept that Dave Hempel and myself developed two years ago for the Vineland Forest plat. We weren't specifically looking at how that intersection should be designed but rather how the overall system fit together. I don't think Hr. Stasson's comments are invalid by any means but ue don't have the mechanism to look at it in detail until ue do the design, final design of that street. Hayor Chmiel: Okay, any other discussion? Councilman Workman: How are ue then addressing the traffic concerns down on the other end of Lake Lucy? I mean I still claim they're going to come down Nez Perce. You folks are all on Lake Lucy correct and that's where you think everybody's going to. Resident: ...everybody comes from Nez Perce to us nov. Councilman Workman: I thought everyone went into town. Resident~ Where do most people work? Downtown Chanhassen? Councilman Workman: I do. But that's then my question but first of all right hero. It's very substandard. That concerns me flrst and then obviously that ls golng to change the nature but I don't know how else would we be able to redirect that traffic. Paul Krauss: There is no other alternative at this time. As far as that Nez Perce/Lake Lucy corner, you're quite right. It's not optimally designed. It was about the best you could do wlthout wlplng out a home or an entlre yard 45 City Council Iteeiill~ -- ~t~.t:-~i 12, 1991 the. re. Now from l:J.,~e to 'i:i~,e '[here's been some consideration about opening up th,'~[ issue, and taking tile kink out or' straightening it o~t. I ti~ink we'd certainly like to look at that but it does have significant impact to one and possibly two home.s. .So that's something that could help get traffic to go to the south but no, you clearly in the interim, Lake Lucy Road which is designed Lt:.~ a local co].lec~or is goi.g to be ti,e m,~in way in and out until tllat (:or, nettler, is put [hrough. ~i'ad Johnson: I i~ave a question about that because we were told that previously J';: uae not designed as a collector~ That seems to change depending on what people want to achieve. Paul Krauss' Well, if I could comment on that. The guide pla, has established two tiers of collector streets. Lake Lucy Road west of ER 17 is designated as a Class I collector, i'f my terminology is correct from the Comprehensive Plan. Thai i~; a major street. It's got an ~0, I believe an 80 foot right-of-way. It carries a fairly significant volume of traffic from different subdivisions. I.,.~k:; Lucy Road ~,nd Nez Per-ce is a Class II collector. It's a thru street. It does serve inner neighborhood traffic. The plan does break out the two there but it clearly is a collector street. Hayo~- Chmiel' Thank you. ~ny other discussion? ~ennett Hor'gan~ Hy name is Bennett Horgan. I live at 940 Lake Lucy Road. I · think one of the primary issues that the Lake Lucy homeowners have is when we ).oft the meet. ing in J,'ll~ual-y we thought the issue had been reso].ved and our pri~,a~'y concern is tlming. We have a ~;afety and ~ trafflc concern ulth the Nez P~.~rcc and the, ~l'me additional traffic, especially tl~e constructions. One thing that seems ~o fmave changed since we left the meeting, and Z think one of the reasons why the Courmcil decided to make the plat amendment were that they coL~ldn't do anythlng u,til then. Zs ~hat the developer at the tlme was not in a hmzrry to develop the lots for 2 years. So what was the hurry in ramrodding this throLtgh. That fact seems to have disappeared all of a sudden. ~ mean the key col~cern we have is that ~he road go through. Z guess we prefer that it goes [brough in one phase. We're concerned that if the road doesn't go through in the LnitlaJ. phase it may never go through and that we'll be continually, forever and ever be sharing the, be entlrely responsible for all the trafflc. ~t just se~ms that that issue needs to be addressed. Thank you. Hayer Chmiel; I do remember some discussion about not wanting to do anything with this for a couple of years. Can you address that? Daryl Fortier; Certainly I can. Hr. Beddor's original proposal, when he first purchased the la,d I~ad very little., interest in developing the property. Fie would be pleased and we originally requested and talked to staff about getting approval with an automatic one year extensioi~ attached ~.o the one year we have to develop. Such that we wanted to get an approval that we didn't have to develop and we'd defer development for up to 2 years. ~e found out we could not achieve that. We could not get it. There's no mechanism available apparently to achieve thaL. Since tl~at time then Hr. Beddor has accepted the costs that are going to be involved with developing this and when he started looking at the phased approached he realized that the costs were going to be very considerable and that the only way for i]i,i to 'recoup ~hJ.s amount of money would be to proceed 46 City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 with development. So right now it looks like there would be homes started under construction as early as next spring. That is still I might add a year and a half after he started this proposal. Mayor Chmiel: It's getting close to the 2 years. Daryl Farrier: It's getting close to the 2 years but it is slightly more rapid than we thought it would be. We also have a projection on buildout scheduling that you may be interested in. It has taken one year for Vineland Forest to sell 9 lots. Mayor Chmiel: Would you let him finish please. Thank you. Oaryl Fortier: It has also taken a number of times for the development in Lake Lucy, which I believe there are 20 residential lots with that subdivision and they still have 6 vacant lots. Over the last year I believe they've added four additional lots that have been sold for construction. There are only 2 open? On my last inspection it appeared to be 6 lots that were unbuilt upon. 4 new ones? Right, that agrees with what I found. 4 additional lots were being built upon this year. That based on the correspondence from the developer last year when we started this project were still for sale. What we're finding is the property seems to be, we find that there would be an inventory here. That there are still 6 lots along Lake Lucy that could be built upon. I don't know if they are all sold. We're of the impression that three of them are for sale and three of them have been sold but a developer is not building on them yet. We think that there will be three homes built next year in the Troendle Addition. The following year we think there will be four and then ue think there will be an additional four the following year. That's the best projection we've been able to make. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Any other discussion? If not, I would entertain a motion for the approval. With Paul, I have a concern for the item that you brought up. To look at this wlthin an 18 to 24 month period wlth regard to the acquisition of the other properties. Now I have a question, legal question. Would thls or could thls be put under approval of this final plat as an additional? Elliott Knetsch: I'm not sure I understand the question. Mayor Chmiel: Paul, rephrase what you said previously. Paul Krauss: Well the suggestion was that the issue of the road extension come back up in 18 to 24 months so the City Council can review it and see if lt's worth whlle golng forward at that time. Mr. Mayor, I would suggest that it not be attached as a condition of the plat. The plat would already be filed and there's no inference that we'd be comlng back to them for anything. We already have their money but that you direct staff to schedule it. Schedule the review independent of the plat in that timeframe and then we would bring it back before you. And if nothing's happened by then, you can evaluate whether you want to go ahead at that tlme. Mayor Chmiel' I would so move that Council at that tlme should revlew that wlthin a 24 month period. Between 18 and 24 months. 47 Counci]man Wi. nv: Mr. I'iayor, ! don't :r~'-al~ Lo draw this out but for the Lake Lucy ~e.~ghborhood... ! rsrsrvod J_o y~a~:s o~ thc Public Safety Commission ~nd speeding was s~)'rt of our little bag and police enforcenme,t and safety issues and I've heard P~,ul. Lake L~Jcy is a collector. Lake Lucy's go~ng to be supplying Nez Perce and Carve]' Be~ch and growth is here. Progress is here. Thi~ ~re~ ~s go~l'~g to bc deueJ, oped. I don't think Lhls ar'e~ ls your demise. I think you live on a str~ight~way. A street that's going to be busy and I don't think that this l)~r'tic~].a'r'l>' is going Lo be your worst problem. But I am concerned about your road. I tl~.tm~k you do I'm~ue ~ problem buL it's a separate issue. Z don't think we c:~n Lie it to this addition and the additional homes and cars. I think we have to ~ie J.{. to the entire growth and the f~ct theft th~{ ro~d is going to be seruJ.]mg a l~rge area. I'm just going to suggest that you don't hesitate to get ahold of our public safety director and specifically deal with the safety i:::~uns, speed and traffic because I think you're going to have Lo irrespective oF this addttio:,. ~ ti'mink you've got ~ problem. .'-t'r'ad 5oi~nson: ...but let's face it. You've got one police officer in this e~tlre city. Ti~ey c~n't do lt. That's ~ separate issue that the City Cour, ci] .... H~yor Chmiel: Maybe we'll volunteer one or two of Lhe City Council people here to sit with ;.t r;zdar gun, Fl¥'ad Johnson: I mean one night i't too 25 minutes for a police officer to get thefts, so let':~ f~ce .it g~zys, you're going to have to get pe. ople to...but that's a s~parste issue... Councilman Wing' My own comment is I think your safety concerns here are a s;~.p~ra'[e issue ~l-:~t yew'r,'.; going ~o have to address, Resident: How about construction traffic? Could that enter through...? Mayor Chmiel: (.~ood question. What concerns, if ,'iny, would the developers have [o that? O,.~ryl For'tier'- We of course don't want to disturb Mr. Troendle's lot and we I~,~vo ~ ].ow a'r'~.;,., that's going to be used for pending. Perhaps I can best polnt this out to the residents as you all have, each of you has a smaller drawlng. W~'.'. h,'.tvo ; .tow area here th,,t's golng to be reserved for pondlng whlch will deny us access off of Pleasant View. The only other choice we really have without ~oi. ng ~hroL,.gi~ I~is grove of trees, which we certainly don't want to do, would be to use hls presen~ driveway. At first that sounds very disruptive to Mr. Troendlu. That's ~ gravel driveway and there's going to be a lot of dust to get to tho stree, t and it'~ qulte long. However there lsa third alternate that may work. l'ha[ ~s Mr. 8eddot is interested in acquiring these three lots and thls would al. low LiS access t. he three lots in Vlneland plat whlch currently has a uti].i(y and grading ai~d drainage easement over it and is intended to be used as a driveway. If we could use that area we would have to check out how strong the Lti. ilities are to make sure we do,'t collapse them. There is a chance we could posslbly get traffic in in that direction. We've also made a request and we've .'.secu'red ti'lo ,.lr~ding p~.;rmit to close this off and to relandscape the front 48 City Council Meeting -- August 12, 1991 portion. We would simply have to withdraw that and not do that work but I think this is something we could seriously look at. Paul Krauss: It's tough to react to that just off the cuff but staff's original thinking on Vineland Forest is that the road connection should have come out there so we're turning back the clock 2 years, even on a temporary basis. But what we have there right now is a fairly narrow driveway. I've driven it quite a bit. It was okay you know for when we had the one house back in there but l really wouldn't be too excited to see it, particularly in it's present state, carrylng much trafflc. It also runs, whlle lt's on the Vlneland Forest plat, it runs against the back yards of some adjoining properties to the east and I believe that they may have some concerns about having trafflc introduced in their back yard. Mayor Chmiel: There is. That's true... Brad .Johnson: ...there's a very short distance between the end of that driveway and where Nez Perce uill begin. I would think that... There's a lot more of us on Lake Lucy that have... Mayor Chmie].: Maybe that's something that can be discussed between developer and staff. If that determination is there, then maybe that's the way to go but if not, then they would have to go the other route. Councilman Wing: And we hope the Pleasant View people don't catch onto this. Mayor Chmiel: That's right. Karen Green: I'd like to make a comment that just on Lake Lucy Road. Mayor Chmiel: Would you like to just state your name. Karen Green: My name is Karen Green and I'm at 1021 Lake Lucy Road. Just on Lake Lucy Road alone there are 16 chlldren under the, oh excuse me. 17 children under the age of 8 that live just on that road alone and I know that there are very many of us that stay home wlth our kids and I mean we do try to watch very carefully but when there is new development on our street and there's trucks parked along the sldes of our roads, lt's very tough to have one car going through and traffic going through there at all tlmes. So for me it makes me very nervous to have my kids out at all because of all the traffic. That's my concern right now. Brad Johnson: This morning for example there was 8 or 9 construction trucks on our street when I left for work at ?:00 a.m.. We don't really need any more. Mayor Chmlel: Well that unfortunately ina developable area, that happens and there's really a hard way to control that klnd of. Oaryl Fortier: Regarding the issue of using the Troendle driveway, there will of course be some problems with it and we're really not in favor of that. In inclement weather, any vehicles uslng Mr. Troendle's drlveway are going to pretty much destroy it. It is not a paved surface. It's something that's going to cause a hardshlp to Mr. Troendle so he has poor access. Also, his famlly and 49 relative.,':: ,*.hat may t~a~t 1. o vj.s.i.'t.. It's not a good sJ. tuation for" anyone person Iob,'-; sL~bjec[~:(t to. HomeYef > the idea ¢)f where tile old road is or was proposed · to b,q original, l>', even if il ;-' cycling back the clock, that's an issue where no ()ilo liv¢l.'-; al'ltl (fOUl!tS ()Il tll¢~t tot access. So even J.f it's slightly destroyed d~trin9 ,,;onstructJ. on we cal~ always restore it without affecting any one person. Tt .is clo.sc to th~ neighbor-, I agree and that l~eighbor would be suffering. That's an issue we have to look at. We also have to look at utilities l~nd,':r'n;aa[h .it. Iiak¢; sure they're not destroyed. But I really see that as being mLtch more preferable to even considering Mr. Troendle's driveway. The driveway we kno~¢ would be dt.~stroyed i~ .short order a~d sil~ce we're looking at 3 or 4 homes. 4 homes and 3 homes, you would be looking at almost 2 years of having his driveway dc.st'r'oyed, t-'or an 82 ye~r old gentleman, that's close to the rest of his life. It seems very onerous for him. Hayer Chmielr Thank you. Okay, tile discussions that we've had. Would anyone like to make a motion? Councilman Workm¢~n; Are we goi;,q for' all three? Mayor' Ci~miel.'. No, i ~.hink we're going to have to address the second one rather quickly. There may be some questiol~s on the others. At l~.;ast T. Ii~v~;. Councilman Workman.' I guess I can make a motion. I guess just to make a quick comment, it's not a situation of a private property owns a piece of vacant land and they want to rick, clop it and they have every right to do that. It does create a problem. It's nice Lo work wlth the neighbors as much as we can. thought 2 years ago that we always talked about, that's ~hy I asked that original question about the ~dea had been throwrm out about potential condemnation of that property, The Owen's property because it was in bankruptcy and everyth(ng else so we CLtn get tl~at accomplished al~d get that through. ~hought we've always ta].ked about that going through. I don't know, maybe I'm get. ting some mixed information here '[onight b~zt I don't know ho~, I hope we can work with constrLtction traffic on this road or at least ask that the road, Lake Lucy Road be swept or whatever needs to be done with construction dirt. 3Lt'( Z dorm't know how you can. Hayer Chmiel; While it':; in bankruptcy you can't col~demn th,'zt piece of property. !f we did, even it was; at all feasible or possible, the City would have ~_o pick up tl~ose additiollal cost.s ~'ather than the owner of that property. couf]ci].mar~ Workman: Right. What I'm trying to get at is it's very unpleasant having 1,':,Fge trucks and vel~icles hauling dlrt, etc. anywhere near or around your more established rlelghborhood. I don't know how we can go about softening that blow. Hayor Chmiel: Yeah, unfortunately if there was a way to do that we could but as I see right. ~ow it's probably an inconvenient way of doing it. Councilman Workman: We]]. I guess I would move approval. It doesn't sound like w~.'r~., going to add any recommendations i:o staff? Recommendations, tllere's 12 of · ~.hem there. Paul Krauss.' There's 12 with a modification to 8. .50 City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 Hayor Chmiel; To item number 8. Councilman Workman: Okay. So with that modification I would move approval. Mayor Chmie].: Of final plat 90-157 Councilman Workman: Is it the final plat? Is this number A? Mayor Chmiel: Right. Maybe I can help you with that Tom. Plat 90-15 for Troendle Addition without variances subject to the following conditions. Items i thru 12 wlth modification to 1rem 8. Councilman Workman: Thank you Don. I would move that. Mayor Chmiel: Is there a second? I'll second it. Councilman Workman moved, Hayor Chmiel seconded to approve Final Plat 90-15 for Troendle Addition without variances, subject to the following conditions: 1. Tile applicant shall enter into a development contract and provide the-city with the nece~:sary financial securities to guarantee proper installation of tile improvements. 2. The applicant shall comply with all conditions of the Watershed District Department requirements. 3. A tree removal plan consistent with city ordinances and policies shall be submiLted for Lot 1, Block 1 prior to issuance of a bullding permit. Clear cuttlng, except for the house pad and utilities ls prohibited. Final street plans shall be developed for approval by the City Engineer Department. 5. The applicant shall install erosion control silt fence around the ponding area until such time as turf is established. 6. Provlde the following easements and rights-of-way: a. The drainage easement along the westerly property line of Lot 9-11, Block 2, and the pondlng area on Outlot A (previously Lots 3-4, Block 1) as shown on the Gradlng and Erosion Control Plan, shall also be shown as a drainage and utllity easement on the flnal plat accordingly. ?. Park and trail fees shall be required in lieu of parkland dedication. 8. Lot 1, Block 2 shall be serviced by Nez Perce Drive and the gravel driveway to Pleasant View Road be removed at such time when a building permit is requested. 9. The temporary cul-de-sac should be provided with an easement to accommodate the temporary pavement and be provided with a barricade equipped with a sign indicating the road wlll be extended. A slmllar notice shall be placed lnto the chain of title of all lots platted in the Troendle Addition. 51 . 41. t3].ock 2 aye i'equi'r'ed to have o¢cess ~:rom proposed T'roendle 10. ~ot~: I and ~ , . Pay ~ ~ee of $10,000.00 i.o Lhe City that will be utilizied in lieu of ~:s:.~e~sment:; for the f.':,[r shar'e of costs related to the extension of Nez Poi-ce Lo Pleasant View Road. P:'ovidr.-; Yr;vised T'ight-of-way easements ~llong Noz Porte in the Vinci. and Forest plat '.'.o eliminate ti~e "jog" in the right-.or-.way between this plat and tl~;', Troel~dJ.r'.. A~ld[tion. All voted in favor and the motion carried. i'!,~yof Chm[~sl' Lr'...i::.s go to item O(b). AppYove deuelopmen'L contract. Ch,'rios, clo >'o~t ,h~ve. ii, st z b'rie[ explanation of the specLal provisions For that deue.] Ol.)lllell [ ',;Olltl ,'i(.-.t ? Ch..',rl~:s Fei. ch; That".'.-'. correct. The .'special provisions of that development contract irlcorpot'ate Lhe conditiol~s of approv~], of ~l~t and since tl~et-e is an a~m, endr,,ent or modification to number 8, we shall make ~hat change on this development co~tYact to mak~ it consistent. Ma>'~r Chmi[~.J'. .'-':]right. Is there an approval o'F Development Contract for Troen~tle hddit.i, on Project ff90--137 dm~x dJ. scuosiOIl? I'.ll make that motion. That ',~e morn that ~s i just finished saying. Is there ~ second? Cottncil. ma~t Workman' I'll second il. Hayer Chmiel moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve Development Contract for Troendle Addition Project No. g0--13. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mayor £1~m.t.cl: Item 8(c). This is fo~ the approval of construction plans and speciFicaLior, s fo'.,' stT'eet and utility improvements for Troendle Addition ~90-.13. Any questions i~m regard to thz~t? I just want to make sure 'that the street that:s 9oing to 90 theft':: going to be the cu]..-de--sac as we mentioned, somehow that something be put up so that people realize that that's golng to be there r:.tLl'le'.,' than h~ving discussions at that time and :s~yin.9 the intent was not ds such. Clearly get it marked so everybody's aware. P,'.~ul Kraus.$: Yes .sit'. Th,-~t is the intent. We would go with tile barricade. g~,~J.¢:alJ, y 'the same b~rt'ic~de that you see now at the end of the street. Zt does i,avu a sign th;~,t s~.~y:~ it's intermded to be ~x~ended ~nd we would put a notice in '[i~u chain c-f t!tle of each lot so if there's any buyer' that buys a lot in Troe~dle Addition they'd be made ~uare of tl~e fact. Hayer Chmie].~ Good. Everyone ].ooked at the grading plan. Erosion control {,ioul~l bo takel~ c,'.~'ru of so we don't i~ave ally problems with._.comi~g from that property and 9oirmg on. can I have a motion to approve the construction plans as I I~rovlom.~r~l~ st,'Left? £ounci].man Wino ~ .. . 52 C~ty Council Meeting -- August 12, 1991 Mayor Chmiel~ Is there a second? Counc.i. lman Workman: Second. Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve Construction Plans and Specifications for Street and Ut£1ity Improvements for TroendIe Addition Project No. 91-13. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Hayor Chmiel: If everybody will leave their copies here so we can hopefully save another tree, if they can use that. There will also be a correction to the platting with tl~e proper signature oil that as we discussed before. Would you just verify that? Thank you. AHERICANA COHHUNITY BANK, SOUTHWEST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION OF HARKET BOULEVARD AND WEST 78TH STREET, KRF ASSOCIATES: A. SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR AN 8,365SG. FT~BANK BUILDING. B. REPLAT A PORTION OF OUTLOT A, HARKET SQUARE INTO A 40,000 SQ. FT. LOT AND A 39,600 SQ. FT. LOT. C. PUD AHENDHENT TO ADD A BANK BUILDING TO HARKET SOUARE SHOPPING CENTER. Paul Krauss: Hr. Hayor, the applicants are requesting approval to construct, as you mentioned, a 8,365 square foot bank bulldlng on the corner of 78th Street and HaFket Blvct.. The site is on one of tile outlots that we created or will create as soon as the Market Square plat is flled but lt's on that PUD that we approve with the shopping center and our expectation is the latest word we have is that hopefully we'll be breaklng ground sometlme early this fall. Approval of the bank is tied into approval of the PUD and the shopping center. The bank would access off of the internal system of driveways servlng the shopplng center'. There's also some reliance on the existing storm sewer system or the storm sewer system that would be constructed for the shopplng center. Hopefully finally everything's falling into place and everybody will be able to break ground in very short order. The bank ls looklng to be open, as I understand lt, before the end of the year. They have some regulatory requ£rements that have been lmposed upon them to do that. In fact that's one of the reasons or that's the primary reason we've taken this step of bringing this to you less than a week after the Plannlng Commission got through wlth it ls primarily to work wlth the bank so they can meet their schedule. We had a few lssues related to the site plan but the representatives of the bank are basically comfortable with the conditions that have been laid down. We feel that the site plan itself was fairly well developed. At the Planning Commission there were two primary issues that came up. One dealing with access which has to do with the proposed left turn curb or medlan cut on 78th Street. The other one wlth the bulldlng architecture. Z'm happy to report that on one, the building architecture, the applJ, cants have made great strides. They took the concerns, and they were very serious concerns that wei-e raised wlth the original building and fundamentally redesigned lt. They came in to talk to staff last Frlday. Gave us some alternatives to look at. The Hayor had an opportunity to look at some preliminary sketches. We gave them some comments. They took those and came back with a deslgn that Z think reflects the kind of building that we can be proud of and that really flts in onto 78th Street. The downtown street scene 53 C.:.l'? Coc.,r:c.:.?. M,s: ,z L .:_ n :: -.. Au!~,ltst 12, 1991 an<l als<~ ir, eL :4J':~:'; khe P]a'~Jlling Commissi~rl'S dos.i.i-:~.s. I'll let Lhe .:.!lus'Lr,-ltion of th~':: spe~:k fo: iL~elF. In o m<~msnt the ~:rchitecL c~:n show that to you. As to the street !.ssue, tha[ one became a little more confusing unfortunalely. The appi.l.c,'~mt=.~ ~:]~ requestins~, LJ~e>, [~.l. iovc it's essential to their' business to have a ~m~:-:dia~: cut ~o tidal ~es~tbound traffic on 7Oth Street can turn. Not dlrectly [~,io tJ~e ~:ite bk~t more realistically into the shopping ce~:te:' and l: guess I'd dJ ff~.,r~.~ntiate between ¥'equests to serve an individual si. re whlch we would (.:e~'t~,.~].y oppo:<e off of 78th Street, ~l~d oF~o theft services the main driveway of the :shopping center which tYm1~ 1Fro fact does. We asked St rgar- Roscoe who's doing o[~'~' dowm'mtow~ tr~if'Fic wof'k to do ;:~l ,inal>'sis of the s,:fety of ~his curb cut. Thc::r :rmitia.l ¥'eport back to us was it was safe based upon traffis they had [<~'e<':~'.:~. We t:'ie<J to be ..straight forward to ~he Planning Comm.ission however .~,n:~ tJ~e s.:i.? ~:~gi:meer's here tonight. Thi~: is arm ln~tasmce where the Clty h~'<m ~ike to com':v:3y ~nd : g~ess we do~l't a].w~ys come to you with a unanimous v,:~k:-~. of ~p of down on ~.: tjive:~ [tern ~nd t:l~i~ i~ one <;'F those .i.n~t~nse:s. He has :~ome v~]J. cl c:ormc:e'r'ns. 1[ ~hould add that the Plinnlng Commission unarmimously ::;~:pm:oi'ted ti'me i. de,: of ti'me cu~'b cut, They .seemed to be ve:'y re:~pom~sive t:o that. The :-,1,:ns :'~ow ~:1] [or that ~mld wh~t our lntent ~as was ba~:ls~lly to ask the l~t~nm'~J, ng Commlssi<~n, City Cou~<:.i. 1 what you fe].t because there's :~ome aesthetic .i. mp,:st::< as we1!_ :F this curb out 'take~: pla~e, Strgar'8 done ~om~me prellminar>, d~$:::i!~:s oF .i.t. You 1. ese a lot of the landscaping th;~'s in thel'e today. That'8 something Lh~t you o:' the lIRA miglmt h~:ve ~ome cormcerns wlth. What's surfaced moi'~ rec:emmt]y though ~:~ we had ~ meeting on Frid;:y basically where we wei'e t~:lkin9 about [he :~es't ZOttm Street project itself and there appears to be ~ :::qni. Fic~nL pos~:ibilitx LI~;:L ~ m,:~of reti:ile~' may ioo1: to locate o~l site. A :.':.i.:r: to the west on 78th S~reot. it's not slear ~nd we have no proposal in fron~. ~:'F us ~mow but w~ tl~[nk th~'L over the winter, whether or not thi~ interest ~.n serious may, we may be able :o know more. The West ZStBm Street project ~ l~elieve ::ither look8 like it's go:Lng ~o be postponed o~' will be postponed... C:,,-~e.s ro~ch- Tt will ~a~.'- postponed until next P,':ul Krauss: W.';"re ZookiJ~g at it b~-;ing postponed untiZ next yea¥. ~ottTic:i]man Workman~ The deLachment project? P,.~.l K~auss' The realignment of ?Sth Street. workman: Why is ti]at? Cli;-ll']_~'..~ Fol~:l-i' Well. prima'r!ly the pro.ject has I~ad, as I'm su~'e you"re aware of thro~gh the ~any d~fferen[ stages has had a fair share of delays. The last of del,~ys incl.ude8 modifJ, c~[J. ons that m~eeded to be incorpo~'~ted into that project b~ed on inform~tlom, ualned from the recent downtown [faf fie study that w,'.~'..~ col~d~[cted.. Tl~ere u~ :some improvemiment8 that wore recommended that needed to bo interfaced. Me re1[ w~:s appropriate to interface at t~mis point in time with ~1~,~ (J:~i.:~chmem~tp¥'oject r,~tl~er than going ~h~'ough with an improvement and then 2 F(~,~rs ].atei' goJ. n9 in tl~el'e and rippi~g thJ. ng[s up again and wldening it and as ..~m~cl]. S~) in c~:-c]:-~:- fc~", t:]e needed I:o ii,corporate ther~e chal~ges into the plans :~nd i. hen ji~ o?der :.o do that we'.Il also have to go back through ~11 the :evie~ :.;t~eps ~,~f. th ,}il t[:~ otl~er ager~cZes illvolved. So ~e have Zo:~L time agaZl~ due to t]~e?:[~ modifications but ;~e Feel Lhat it's the time to do it if ~e're golng to do City Council Heeting - August 12~ 1991 the project, we either need to incorporate the ultimate design that's required. So u.~th going back throu.qh the review process and going through the bidding and st,ch and given that we're into August already, it's likely that the project wouldn't take place until next spring. Paul Kra~tss: Now that figures into this in a way and I had an opportunity to inform the applicants, the bank staff only of this tonight because it's relatively late breaking. That since the curb cut, the median cut, if it is made, would be made as a part of the 78th Street project and since it appears that that's not going to happen until next spring and since it appears that we may know more about what's going to happen east of this site before then, you may wish to take that into account and reserve judgment on uhether or not the median cut should be made. That does cause a problem for the bank. I'll let them speak for themselves. They belleve they need the access. On the other hand we've also had, in our discussions with SRF on the downtown design, they raise concerns that if one of these large retailers goes in on that slte, that the levels of traffic would be greater than what they had projected because they projected a lower level of commercial use and that uhlle they haven't re-funned tlleir an,.~lysis, they believe shooting from the hlp that it probably would cause a prob].em to have a curb cut there. It's not something we've had them look lnto in any depth yet and we have to do that but they did raise a concern with that. With that we are recommending approval of the bank. As T sald, I t hlnk they've done a pretty remarkable job and I'm sure the architects gave up their entire weekend to do lt. To respond to those concerns. We thlnk basically we've got a good project here. We would ask your consideration on the median cut and would do as you wish. Hayer Chmiel: Thank you Paul. Would you like to present your rendition as to what's being proposed. Paul Krauss: If I may, while Kim is setting up. Steve Emmings, the Planning commission Chairman was here earller this evening. He had to leave before this item came on. He dld have an opportunity to revleu the rendering of the revised building and he essentially asked me to relate that he's very comfortable with lt. That it really dld respond to the issues that were raised. Kim Jacobsen: I'm Klm Jacobsen. I'm representing KRJ Associates. The Americana Bank. Americana Community Bank. I think I should maybe start with a little bit of this history. We came in about 2-2 1/2 months ago and approached the community. Worked very hard wlth the staff. We had proposed at that tlme a . cut that we wanted to put in off the site to Harket Blvd.. Staff was very good. They went back to the trafflc consultants. Came back to us and sald, lt's not going to work. We thought about it very hard and very relunctantly we gave up this cut on the basls that in the plannlng study, the trafflc study they recommended, instead of taking a cut on Harket Blvd, the consultants recommended looking at 78th Street. Creatlng a median cut. The site is totally based upon access. Business is b,~sed upon access. We bottom line pursued this site based upon staff's recommendation, the traffic consultant's recommendation that we would be given a median cut on ?Sth. Had that not been there 2 months ago, we ~ou]d have probably looked for another slte because we feel access ls imperative to get business into that center. We also think from the city standpoint it's very much of a plus to have that dlrect access lnlthe center. If you have a center you can't get people into it, it's very tough to make money. And with 55 '~. ,:.: ¢; [:: '[_i']'-'. 'r',':c::o~ltMP. llcJ,'iLi. Oli:'.-':_ W'3 c:.~.,a:¢c~.d ou:' i';,~;'kr-:t Bi. vd. ;~:;c;es8. We 'redesigned :-.-;.~.f¢~. ~,~ ;~Oy'!.;r._'(! w~h j'i: ';'¢f')' :~,"tl'(! '.9 ;flak(; il. ~Jo'r'[~, !~orksd L,hrough :".c;..,r,~i;~:.'nd,'..-.t.Lo~ wi',~ w:.ii'c v?.f'? heJLp,r!.~].. Vr;Fy 3!.t[.~i)Ol'tJ. vc; through eve?ything. We ::.'~!,~.: b.-;--k, .~.oo[-~,,.'! .:'L EL ¢r,.~! said ove:'ail :u.~.,. ,fee]. 'l. hat ~.he ~est 78th is impos!,qg ,,:.:. pr-obir.~lns ~.o fhE.. (.:¢.'Ly . L~J?~II'i'. now 'i:he-re i.'~ ,~.'., ].',f*,. ,. I. uJ'fl ~tt Kerbo;- or HonLorey, ',~h~;tev~f' ~lame you :~ant to ~.~ive that street. As ii. backs Ltp:, this would only ,.tl i;.:'.,,~'_at,; :¢o,~,'.; ()'r i:t~e b~.~c:k Ltp '~.Jiero. Tt':; 1~o'[. go.f.~g to c,-tuse ally more sec.,eking p,-r;,bl.~:i;,s 'than .~.,:: ~lready I;l~er.3. So we'i'e looking at one way 'Lo ?;et dJ. rect a.:-.:r:~:u::~ J. il~'o.. ~'h;;. (';,?.I'?L'.I'. . Not. '~r;c::r;o'.;al-ily OLtf- sitE.,... W~,,.. fee.~ it's ve.~'y bad for ?.¢).,,:.'.onr:: '_~o~n9 wo:.;'L ~o d?'~u(; by a center, by ,z S'~tE. Gu OUt 0'[ sight of it .and !.l~;-]n. (,,:)l~e tn d,.:w;: i¢~-,~,,'i.:_:'::.::? '!.l~rr.; tgJl ti,e I)ack parking lo'L. It does not seem like .'..-..!uod .~cu9c¢,:¢ Lo ~ :-~hopl¢ing uente'r', ti~usiy ()L'.'r bank. We went through all of thf.,, u;ith (he Pi.~Jnir~g Cufnll~.f'.;~:.'Lol; ~nd they were vel-y iLtf)pof'tJ, ve. They felt '-' ; l~t..~.',. J , I :..~,:-- ........ 78'[.~ .;;:~'~ wds ~ p'_Lt::'.4 ',¢o'r' ?SLh 5L~'eet, would neJ. p the senter. Z fee~L ov,'.'.~ :d~). f~. ~c~.t~t do tiaa.". .1; haue ~'~ qualms in my r,.i. nd tl'~.~t that ~ou~d not be .D.]tt,~:: fO'." ever'yone. I~Je ~...'~fl td.!~k [o some. peopl~ off 'tile P]~annJ_ng Commission and ':_I~,'.;>.' ~-~.,.~'.,','¢ '.;~:ry :¢u,p[,,.~ t -; ,,,.,. ,. ,'.',:~J_i~ 'Lon~.ght oF seine of ¢he thJ. l~g,~o 'tl~t we I~aue gone i . i ; ~ !.nr'c, ugn. ~' ',h.~k oue'rs].l what we've desc'¢'ibed to you J.s ~e've go'L ~ site tha · !.I~;i,I; thr; ¢..~.ty h,'~:¢ work,'.?.d w~.Ll~. ThEy"r-e J_n ~greement ~J. th ino.st of the th~ng$ ' ' ~ . f ~' [~e ' ~ 1. ha't w,'..:'re oolnq o!1 ~.'~., ~.-r not all o 'nom. , ri~v3 !ooked +hrottgh some or ' hr~.;~;' C01'lOr'.:r~'JS ,'.ell(ii h,:.~v:.~ ,'.~9r'r.'..'r~.d to g~.ve up ¢~ f~iecE o'[ sJ_gl~,'~ge so '(hat's to us r'1ghl now :4~: t,~f. 1]. give. that u'p. We'd ?~l..her work ',~iLh the C.¢.ty. Have gone t;]f'ot.t,:jJ~ r:,.Vr:l';:tl'lj.l'~ej. .T. think where we st~f'te.d out ;~nd Z'ln 9oing to pu]_l out some ~'.'.'r'(:lii,. t.tf'e and show you a :¢ket,.::h. ~'.-' slatted out ~ week ago t'¢y;[ng to fJ.'L ~.!.'[.'i:l~fn ,.~ Pt~f~ dcv,o.].opm~.l~L. Co].orb~'Zse, ~¢e h,'.~d ~ bu~ldi~g that was gr~y. It :?., ]. :.; I~','t LIp t~i~4~[ ~c-'. [e.l.t were so~,~e of t!~e cha'r,.~cters of tile center. We ca,ne to '~.h:; ?].anl~J. ng O01fllll_~SSiOll al~d F_~gtl'~'.rlt]_]? so, wet'e inet wJ. tl~ why docs it have 'to be ....... ' can ,~8 'ake som,: of the ~trchi'LEcture and :~,se some libe;-ty and they I)T(~pc~:s,'.-.'cJ Lo L[:;). wJ:~" [,.~ctl].d i-;apt,t~.i~ i'[ we; said (.t~ op the PUD. colninctndm~.?.nt c:r '"'3'..,r':::;t;'l~ tjl.';t. :~.:~>'::; matcl,, ,L'~e aFr.:h&'~ectLti'r_', o'[ 'the ceilter. We, ,~ol'ked very hard at ii. W::rkc¢] wi. tl~ P,.'~u.! and il.tS '.st~f'F. Z kizow we m~'.;t w;.th the M~yor'. Eue:'yone i~ . ~ - i ~,':s ~,~;~..q Jnvo~.ved :~':Lh !ook',nO 2t :::O~l~e opt~ol'~S. '.~e developed a building t,qat we · l.h'i, rik .rf.~,- Charlh;.,,.¢:_;c,.i~. W~,-; .l_ookEd ,~'b .it. T'r'iEd to keep some of 1:he cilaracter 'h;~t'*.-. ~?. !:ho cenLeF nuw_ W~ kept ~.he .gi'sell '.rOOf, ';*ef~ect$ng 301118 9[ the green I.h,~.t':~ !i~cr',-~.. We-.: .~_,ookcd ,'.~t op.,:~; Ltp the t)u~ld~ng ~ith ~, lot of ~J_ndo~s. !~oked at. ,tak~ltU ,.~ld Lf'y~ng ~.o c'r-e~:e ~ ~';.t'L~e bJ.L of r;xc,Ztement ~J. th some ,;tgl'iJ. llg::; f.h,"~i 111,3.;/ I;Ot bE f. il;¢ S,'-tlll~t CO].OI' [)t~t We 'to-;e). in~.cll the ci'la'r,'.~cter of thc. c-,nl, si'. ^rid ove'l',~].]~ +:'J. Ed ~o ge!. ,-t bu:[~cJ~.llg tk t ...... . ,,at I h~nk Chanhassen s goJ~ng to b:'; v~';f'y i.,r'oLt..'! of. Z tl'~.'i, nk ovEr¢.'~].! :it's go:Ll~9 ~o bE ol~E o''~ tl~e il:[ce,st ~[i )'OL','i" J;Dl-fllnUf;;.~,?. Fr.o!~ t.'ne-'er- ,,~e've gone back, we've. .'looked a't eve'r'ythLng. Ail i:h.'~, COl~,CCrll:-~ ~8'f'r~ ].1! pr'~'-.'l.~.y ll~lzc[i agreeme~lt wi. th. We I~,'zve 110 ['e,']~[ COIICLCT'llS aS "~ ho~ '¢E'','E 9¢~L,ng to develop Lhe s~tE. ZT tile bu~].d~ng .ts a. cueptab]e and r,,'.:or.,t,,.,..',_:Lkc~, the ).ooks of ~.'L, we f~::cJ, ve.f-y ¢¢)sj. tj. vr~. ~bo,~t .Lt. ]: th.i_nk bot~ofr,. !.~ne, 3~f' b~ogest ~.ssuE ].r¢ J.r [hff ~,r'c'.i~J. Le.r;(u'r'E :~s okay. Z'[ everything else F,l'o~c.-r;'L. !~,'-. resJ .r'r'Olrl th8 d,dve].Oplllent stendpo].nt that without that ct~t we :--.o;-~olzs.l_y nzrt th3 potent'~al bl~s.~.ne:¢~; of this b~znk ,.~nd t.~l(.LlllaLEly busil~eis at that shopping ceil't, er. Z ~ue:.':s; the or, ly thing Z can say about ti~e concerns that ~l~el~¢::s ,~ majo'r' rr:t;~i_ler .1.(~oki!l,.~ ;.'.t ;.'-. s.Lte down t.h~: road, we'f'e here today. ;J:...':'~: ','-~:a('ly' ';.,..~ .'J¢,vr;lo,,a I~ yol.ti" comlnurlJ. Ly_ No ?'a]..':se promises. No wishes. WE're I:(;i. ,iskf. l~9 ,r(.,: ,'il'~>"~h~.n(.; r.~xcef)k bo be ~illowed a curb ct.eL al~d the pe'rlnJ'-:;sioll to Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 build in yOLlr community. And like I say, we are here. We're real. We're going to dc) it, Thank yeLL. Hayor Chmiel: Thanks. Councilman Wing: I just had a question. Does that picture represent the curb cut? Mayor Chmiel: I don't believe it does. It's further down to the west. Klm Jacobsen: Right down probably right about here. I can throw in one other thing and it's not real critical at this point but there was some concern about the scale of our center or our building versus the shopping center. This is a real rough comparis, on but the average piece of the center is roughly 36 feet high. Our' building is about 34 feet high. And the Fairview Foods or whatever the grocery store is is about 48 feet high so another 10 feet above this. I [hink if you overlay it to our building it's not, we're two stories. This is a single story. We're not any higher than the major average of the shopping cent~:r. 5o I think the mass is done from a perspective to say this is the building and so of course it's going to focus on it. Mayor' Chmiel: Does that have an overhang on the roof portion as well? Kim Jacobsen: Yes. Hayor Chmiel: And I',ou much projection is there? l.',im Jacobsen: There's an overhang coming through here with a large overhang and then... Councilman Workman: HRA take care of the specials on this? Just completely separate from. Kim Jacobsen: I would defer to the City Manager. Todd Gerhardt: ...the bank would make application for special assessment reduction T'm sure for thelr development on thls slte. Councilman Workman: That's the extent that the HRA has... Kim Jacobsen: That's correct. Mayor Chmiel: I see a vast improvement from what ue had seen before. I like the appearance of lt. It softens the bullding as well. Makes it look a 11ttle more appealing for you to take our' money. Any discussion? Councilman Workman: I would have to agree with the developer on the cut and I don't think you're going to really get a whole lot of people that have a love loss for a lot of that shurbery in the mlddle of the road there. It causes lots of anxiety. Zf you can help us get rld of some of it. Some of lt's nice but it's gettlng big. Z thlnk lt's a falrly impressive looking structure from thls point of view which appears to be from the lobby of a competing bank. I'm concerned about, if ~ were golng to be a retaller in that, and agaln maybe thls 57 tu: :~e~r.e foc!.t::~.~nc; oT, the bttiiding.. ~'t looks,. !Jke the grocery sLore~ yoLt're ~f~ll¢} i_o b~ ~.tl~lr~ ~o :~¢ee l.h~-',J; gro~:e~y stu~'~. It looks .~ike yOLt'~'e no¢ going t.o ',~r~ abl,~ t.~ soe an ~'fu]. lot of tho~e re't~iiers b~c:k the~e. Not that maybe r'a~t] l(f'aus:s: Z th~nk the perspective ~s a ~&tt~e skewed, o'r a ~ot ske~ed ,'.~cLu,'.tlLF b,¢cause of the ~a~ the ~t2ustratLol'~ Ls done. Co[tncj.~aa]~ ~orkman: ~hat's the square ~ootage here? I~,'tt.~]. l(t-ausr;: Z['3 8,000 square fee(. There's ont~ 4,000 squatt'e foot footprLr~t ~;o yo~t'r'e ta~kJ, n9 about a 4,000 square foot footprint against a ~00,000 square i, . H,:yor Chr:~eZ: Zt'~ not go,rig to h~de d~ttl~ct~ma~l Horkr~l: Zt's not 9oLn9 to ;~ppe,zr that big? KJa ~acobson: No. The art2st ~ho dJd ~t, he's seizing the bu~d&ng and that's ~¢l~t'i: I~e (trep¢. f~O Zt.'s a dcapatn9 to b,:¢ puL. Counn~2~r~an Ho'¢kmar~' ]loH b~g ~s the Chan 8~nk? Paul Kr,Td.t~'~s: Z don't rec~).~. l(~m 5acobson: Zt':;~ got to be at Zeas't 40 so~e feet h~gh up there. CouncL]m;.tn t,Jork[,a:'~: ~ ~ear~ foO'Ll~rJ, nt. Randy Schu~tz' ,:~ ]J.t~e over ~0 000 (:o~zncL].nan ~orkman: ~0,000 footprint? ¢::.~r,(l), Schu].tz' :t".~: not a ].~rge buZ~d~ng. ~ayor Ch~r~Le~: Ye;th. The p~,rspectus ~s you see there 2s .just enlarged just to ~e~ you see ~hat ~t ~s. Todd Oerhardt' 'I'd say HcDona2d's ~s 4,000 [o 5,000 square feet. H;~yor ChmLe]_- ghat sJz~; Ls the b;~nk .ti~ Iladfor'd? Randy Schu~tz: Zn ~edford? Z'd s~y ~e're about 4 aaybe. 3,500. i'lRyof- Chromo.L: Z u,:s trying to make a coBparison because Z d~d driue do~n there Lo ].ook a~ that but then 3' found out that yOU purchased that from Not,est but .(~'~ comp,:rab)r¢: to Hight you're tookJ.~9 ,~t here. Z ~,ean as f~r ~s the j.-i :;a t F. CoLonel]man Horkman' Z gttess ~t's k2nd of thro~ng me off a ~tt~e b~t on the ~:izr~ ;znd r~,~ybe ~ don't herod to Hot'¥y ;~bout ~t. Z th~nk ~t prob~bLy ~ou~d ~¢e]]. elf of the hoteZ. ZL ~ouJ. d appear to. Z th~nk you ought to go for a sign 58 C. ily Council. Me,qLing - August 12, 199i that's about 6 times bigger than that one but that's just a personal thing of Mayor Chmiel: That was one of the questions I had. What future signage would be there, if any? Councilman Workman: I'm assuming there'd be some on the other side. Maybe on throe sides. Kim 3acobson: There is on three sides... Councilman Workman: Is there a drive up on the other side of the building? Is that where it is? Kim Jacobsen: Yes. Mayor Chmiel: I guess one of the questions I had Paul, is there going to be tenants also in this building? Randy Schultz: We anticipate that...to have tenants on the second floor. Mayor Chmiel: Then that's my other question. Future signage for those tenants which ls golng to really cause probably some additional problems as I see. Paul Kraussr Mr. Mayor, this one is hopefully a little cleaner than Medical Arts was in that thls comes in under a PUD. The PUD ls subject to sign convenants and this would be the sign package that we would be allowing for this building. So anyway that's not to say they won't come in in the future ulth some additional requests but the obligations and constraints are going to be very clearly lald out at the outset. Councilman Wing: That's a promise? Because I can already see a 3 foot State Farm Insurance sign with back lighting right on that front. Paul Krauss: Well they may, I can't say that someone won't make the request but you're under no obligation to approve lt. When we revleued thls I looked at the existing Chanhassen Bank. That only has one sign. Now even though it's got three exposures, it has one slgn. Thls bullding ls pretty uniquely slted so that three wall signs seem [o make sense. The entrance is kind of at a perpendicular, well lt's at an angle to the corner. That lays in there rather well and then they have tile two other elevations from the west and from the south. There was an additional monument slgn. Ground mounted monument slgn that was on the internal driveway for the shopping center right at this point over here. We asked that that be eliminated. It served no real valld purpose for what ue can see. 41so, Outlot 4 is only entitlted to one free standing sign under the PUD and it seemed to be rather wasteful of it to stlck it on the driveway. Mayor Chmiel: I was thinking that maybe in the future we should look at marquees like they have at the bank where they would flash a name on and off and another one and contjnue. I was thinking of the same thing wlth the slgn up there. I don't think we'll ever see it. Just something I automatically thought about lt. Just not taklng anymore but it ~ust flashes names. C$i.X C. ottllci.1, lira. eL.ti:9 ALtOIIL-'.t. 17.. ].091 Councilman Ming' lc i:his c, pe~: discussion? Counc2l. man Wing: I unde'rsiand the question of the massiveness. The Market SqtlAi',';. The l-r;ta.[[ d~:v~.:.l, opme~lt is cml'taLl'miX the key goa]. of the HRA I think and i'i:'~ rea].ly imt)orLant ~nd i'm see~.n9 Lhis as a really massive keystone to that dnvr-~topmem~t and Z tl~ink t. hat ts gO~ilg LO detr,:~cL. However Mi'. MayO¢', we Bay ;~an't to det'raci depending on ,~hat that Market Squa'r'e's going ~o look like so i:i~is may be ,'~ ver7 d¢:itgl~tfLtl pf'e(;uf'sof'y to the Market Sql/are building depending on ho~ th.xt 7'e~aJ.] cgntcr's going to look, It may not be, this could be 'real a(]diti()~ to the city. I happer~ to l'eczJ.~y ~ike .LL. I think you've done a beautj ftt~ job. Mayor Ci~mio.L.~ Now ihs back side of [his building's going to look exactly l~ke ~l~:~. f'ront side'? PaLt). Krauss" Same mat ~r',' als oi~ al! 'Four exposures_ There is no back to the !)a~k real..!.7. 11'.':-: exposed on ,'.~!]. s.tdes. !iayo'r Chmiel: No. But I'm saying appearance wise it's going to be the same t I'~er~. as ~t. faces 'Lh~-It Co[tFi(.'.J]man W~no: i really like. ~his. Oeec this ~ake any action? As a young Co~t~c.~lmembr..F c,'~ I move ..~ppr~v~i of anythi~g? Mayor chmiel: Sure. go Cou)~r.';lilman Wing-~ But I don't know Wllla'il. Coltnc~lman Workman' S'.Lte plan review. !t,'.t ?.,a ;' (.':l',lr~ir.-.'.j.: Site ;)iai': 'r:..;uiew oF a 8,365 square foot bank building. Councilman Workman~ I gLteSC i[ I could, Z am a !ittlo concerned about how ].ook.s and how it doesn't look and I don't know that I really have as much accuracy here as I'd like, H,'~yo'r Cl~miel', Wh,:~t'.'~ i.i~e setback from the street? Paul Krauss: The s[i'ucture has beer, required to inaintain the same setback we u:s~:d elsewhere in the PUD a~ld that's a miltilnum of 25 feet, r.;oLtrlc$iman Wing-' And what's the medical building? Patti Krauss: 14. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. It'd be another 11 back. I)au! I(raur~s: Thr,.r~:'s al:so, because of the HRA action of a couple of weeks ago, to reserve all ,--.dditlona.l !0 feet of future right-of--w~y for the ~idening of the :;t. reet, c:ffocLJ, vely it's 90illg to have a 35 foot setback until that s~cond ] ,.ii'm~) ' O pLtt. ~0 City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 Councilman Workman: Should we be looking at more detailed blueprints here? Mayor Chmiel: Well this is just the site plan review. This is not the finalized portlon of it by any means. Paul Krauss: Well Mr. Hayor, if I couZd clarlfy. This would be the last tlme you would officially react on thls unless you ask for the architecture to come back. I think I'd feel comfortable though that if this was the building you wanted, thls ls the building that we would make sure KRJ Architects gave us on the bull. ding permit application. Thls is not different from what we normally have in terms of elevations. That's typically all we require. Councilman Wing: Where does the curb cutback request come into this? That would be part of the approval tonight? Mayor Chmiel: That would be with the site plan which would depict. Councilman Workman: The concern ls, and Medlcal Arts bulldlng being the example that it all of a sudden was close to the road and who put it there and why and how and you know. Mayor Chmiel: Well you can condition it with setbacks of that 25 feet in there. Councilman Workman: Or 35. Is that spelled out? Paul Krauss: The 25 Foot setback is what's on the site plan itself. Councilman Wing: Plus the 117 Paul Krauss: Well we have a separate condition for the additional 10 feet. That only occurs on ?8th Street though. Not on Market Blvd.. Todd Gerhardt: Mr. Mayor, before you take any actlon on the curb cut, I'd like to bring that to the HRA and get thelr feedback on that curb cut. They initiated a lot of the public improvements in the downtown and the City Manager felt that they have some say in that where those curb cuts go since that is basically thelr medlan. Councilman Workman: But it is spelled out in the HRA documents that extra 10 feet? Todd Gerhardt: Yes. That is in the development contract for Market Square. Councilman Workman: So we can approve the site plan or? Todd Gerhardt: You can approve the site plan but as to the curb cut, I would like to get HRA feedback on that. Mayor Chmiel; Get an opinion back from HRA. Councilwoman Oimler: Okay, but the site plan does include the curb cut we were just told so if we approved it, then we would be approving it prior to getting the HRA. City (';ouF~cJ. 1 Pleeisil'~O -- Augu~'I. 12. 1991 Hayor ChmieJ.~. No, you could condil, ion it UpOI~ i. he review by HRA. With their appl'OVa].. Pau] t(ra~tss,~ You may also wish to make your intent known about the curb cut or ~dd some guidance for the HRA. That might help. Counciiuoman Oimler: Should public safety take a look at this too for public s~fety issues? Especially ~.f we're 9oin9 [o approve it before the West ?8th Street detachment. Hayor Chmiel: Basically, if you have Strgar-Roscoe who has provided that .information wil:h tile traffic portion, that should alleviate I think that part of it. [:ouncilman Wing: I would favor tabling Lhis pending HR~ review with it returning to us for final action. Todd Gerhardt: i wouldn't hold ~he development up. I think the contractors want to get going o~ their building. I think the curb cut could be an issue solved down the line after a review has been done. Councilman Wing: It's hinging on the curb. That's what they said. Hayor Chmie].: But you carl condition it with their review and approval on that to HRA. I ti]ink they're anxious and I don't want [o push this one way or Ihs ot her but. Bob Oittrick: Mr. Mayor, Council. I think it's very important that the curb cut be included. Without the curb cut I don't ~hink we have a prayer of a chance to do buslness here on thls particular .slte. We gave up Market Street, which I ~hought was probably much Inore than we should have... By dolng that, noL~ they've go~ ~o pass our facility, come all the way around and come back ln. W,,e basically have to do the same thing here but we're ~ust asking for the edge of the lot rather ~han... You're golng to get people to come back. If we don't have people at our facility, we just as well.~. We could have the beet place in ~he world., best lot in the world, if you can't get people to lt, lt's not golng to do you al~y good. That's where we're standing right now. We thlnk we can do a good job for Lhe community~ We think we can get...good job for our customers but without this cut there's no chance in the world. And I feel very strongly about that~ Your people at City Hall have been great in worklng wlth us. We appreciate thaL. They've been doing a good job. They've been with us all the way as far a~ expediting thls thlng... We're not trylng to push something down your throat. We're jue~ saying if you're going to do tile deal without the curb cut: we don't ;lave a deal. Councilman Workman: I don't think we're adverse to that. Are we? I mean Tl~ursclay night the HRA meets. We're going to move approval of this slte plan wlth the cmtrb cut based on HRA's approval. 2/5 of the HRA ls right here. I don't know that we're saying we don't want the curb cut. I haven't heard that yet.. Todd Gerhardt: That's my point. I don't want to have Council give a blanket opinion and have the HRA upset that they never I'lad an option to discuss anything 62 City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 about the curb cut. Councilman Wing: I agree. Charles Folch: Hr. Mayor, if I may add. Certainly the concerns the developer is raising for access and needed important feature for their buslness is certainly valid and well understood by staff. Intuitively though I guess Z've had some concerns all the way along with that curb cut and reaffirming that on Frlday, as Paul had mentioned in discussing thls further ulth Strgar-Roscoe and looking at what they interpretted and figured into their projects based on the type of land use that would develop to the west, they were very clear that the land use that they had projected was low volume, office commercial and not a high volume, hlgh density fetal1 center. Wlth that posslble notlon, they were very clear that they would retract their recommendation for that curb cut. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, I see we have a given problem here with two members in access off of 78th and to have that, let me ask a question. That would have a baslc left turn land from the eastbound going west on ?8th. Is that correct? Charles Folch: There'd be a left turn for westbound ?8th to go south, right. Mayor Chmiel: That's right. In that particular area, that would have to be uldened anyway, the road. Zsn't that correct? So there would be sufficient left turn lane without causing problems with the trafflc golng west? Charles Folch: No, that was one of the problems is with the higher volume of trafflc for the eastbound and wlth the installation of the future slgnals. The queuing, they did an estimation of the queuing. How far back the eastbound cars would be backed up durlng a peak hour. Thlngs 11ke that wlth a stop light and it is likely that they would back up blocking that left turn lane. The left turn lane as it currently stands barely would have stacking for 2 cars. Any cars beyond that would then be basically sticklng out into one of the thru westbound lanes and that does present a safety problem there. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. A lot of that traffic of course would be going directly from ?Sth onto Market which would suffice that need there because of the trafflc signals which would be installed at that particular time. Charles Folch: Rlght. There would be a left turn lane at Market. Mayor Chmiel: How much stacking can be within that specific area? Charles Folch: At the one at Market? Mayor Chmiel: I'd have to evaluate the distance on that. I don't recall what the dlstance was on that one. I'm trylng to determine thelr baslc needs for that access. The amount of stacking that can be there and of course not all trafflc ls golng to be golng west. A lot of that could be coming from the east as well. I'm trying to in my own mind determine what that amount of stacklng for each entrance lnto that facility, of the need for the second one. I could see that there could possibly, if there is stacking for Market and there's a turn, whether it would be a green arrow or regular green 11ght, that stacklng ls there and people are coming and there's enough people, they may just so choose 63 City Co~Lr~ci]. iJeetillg - ,qLlgust 12, 199J. 1o go down to the nr. xt one to make that left turn. I'm 'lryin.~ to determine, you h~tve to I~av,'.~ tier; accessib~[[(y in and o~t of pfoperty for any business that yOLL~ re doiilg. Charle,s Folch: 4bsolutely, MayoT' Chmiel: Because that's how it draws. So I guess I look at that to the point, of saying ue should probably make that recommendation. councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, I 'feel very strongly that West 78th Street will not r. olerate a left t.urn lane with the traffic it has. It's going to tie up tr~ffic. You mentioned cars stick.i, ng out. I agree with their access and I agree with the need. West ?8th Stree[ has got to be dealt with. If this is priority, then that center median area has got to be 'removed 'for that block or it's g.t to bo wider, ed out. I whalers[and that the engineer tells us you can get two cars through there but if a car' stalls, traffic on West 78th Street comes to a halt. If a fire[tuck has to go around a car 'that stops, he goes up on the curb...the amount of traffic we~ve got. They're going to have to stop for eastbound. They're going to tie up westbound. It's going to bring 78th Street [o a halt. I support [heir need. West 78th Street won't tolerate the curb cut. You can convey my very strong con,vic[ion on that to the HRA. I'm just really opposed to '[hat w.i. th an improvement. Todd Gerhardt: That segment as Paul is drawing it, wi. il be changing as a part of the West 78th Street detachment. Mayor Chmiel: That's right. Paul Krauss: You're going to have two westbound lanes there plus part of the reason why we're revislng West ?Bth Street...is that quarters wi].1 be opened up ~o allow lmproved movement of buses and fire[tucks and so ~ thlnk that problem wlll l~rgely be responded to. [:oLtncilman Wing: ttow are they going to open it to 4 lanes? What's going to change? The widel~ing, ls that what you're saylng? Pal.ti. I<ratmss: It wi].l be made wider. Councilman Wing: With the widening? Okay, as is, it would be intolerable. Paul Krauss: Yeah but the premise is that none of this would happen untll it l,apl~ens with tile Wes[ 78th Street detachment project which would incorporate all thls. ¢ouncilman Workman: That should be about 7 years. Randy Schultz-' Can I just make a comment. I'nl Randy Schultz. President of Americana Community Bank. T_ just have a couple of comments. One thing in f-ogards to the safety of the foedJ, an cut, If I'm correct, I believe a lot of these traffic study assumptions are being made w~th ?Bth Street the way it is now, As Z ur~derstand a ~ot of people complain about it almost being a racetrack because of ti~ere not being stop lights, T think the, as ~ understand it Paul we're talk.t~g abo~.~ stop l~ghts going &n ~1'~ several places on ?Bth Street, 64 City Council Meeting -- August 12, 1991 think that would make a significant affect on the traffic volume. Especially when you also improve TH $ around the outside. I think it's pretty difficult today to estimate what kind of traffic volume you're going to have on West ?Sth. Even if you have a major shopping center of some sort to the west. I'd like to reiterate one other thing that Klm said. We're here today. We have the regulatory approval. We want to come into your community. We are a, I think if you check with the two communities we're in, we're a very community orientated bank. We use the depositers money to make loans back to... We don't ship the money off. We're for real. We're not asking for any special priviledges. I think that all you realize that... We have no problem with the HRA taking a look at this. We would like to find out if that's going to happen soon. We are under some time deadline. Mayor Chmiel: I believe it's this Thursday that the HRA meets. Randy Schultz: We need to give Kim the go ahead so we can get the plans developed and bld on. We'd ask you for your help. The 78th curb cut ls absolutely essential. We haven't talked about how deep that lane might be so how many cars could be stacked in there but we thlnk lt's a safety factor. One thing that hasn't been talked about. If you have some kind of an accident in the center, we thlnk that's a safety issue. If you need to get a flretruck or ambulance in there fast. That might be another thing. Councilman Workman: Do you want to try again Richard? Councilman Wing: I just want to clarify Paul. Your premise is based on the widening. Is there a timeframe for the widening? I've heard a 7 year comment made. Paul Krauss: Flrst of all the studles that Strgar-Roscoe dld trles to anticipate how thls is going to function after we do all the improvements that they're recommending, including signalization. A lot of people would tell you that trafflc forecasting is more an art than a science but it's the best information that we have. The West 78th Street detachment project, lt's kind of like hltting a moving target and I guess Charles could address this better than I but we know a lot more about the traffic demands on Z8th Street and Market than we knew when the shopping center was first proposed and what we tried to do or are trylng to do are to adapt the West 78th Street project so we can do it right the first time. But as Charles was indicating, the proposal is that thl$ come in for a sprlng construction and that it be done rlght. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, and I fulZy agree with that part. Councilman Wing: I'd like to move. Councilwoman Oimler: Could I make a comment before you do? I would really like to help them out and I know that the Plannlng Commission and everyone has kind of rushed things through and everybody's worked cooperatively to help them come in here. I don't see any problem wlth waltlng untll Thursday. I thlnk the more people that review this the better off we are because we're missing some things that they'll plck up and for that reason, because it is contingent, I'd be ready to approve the building but I'm not ready to approve tile street. And you're L ! * I t.tr~t.i]. I~RA h;.~<~ reviewed iL. Mayor Chmiel'. I don't think ;de wouJ. d have to basically table it. That portion with ~.hf; approv,_~], of HRA roi" (lie access of ?Sth a~d I thir, k staff can also be 1ookJ. ng more in detail of tl~ai part of it. What's going to develop beyond that. c. ouncil~oman Dimler: So if HRA finds some problems, then our action here is i),.~s~c,.~lJ.y null and void? I'iayo~' ChmieJ.: l'l~a~.'$ right. Cottncilman Wing: That was ,ny intent Ursula was just to move approval of site pl,~n for the bank with th,'.~t condition. Contingent on approval of the HRA and Z'm goJ. n9 ~o [)e a~ the meeting so...that does concern me. Hayom' Chmiel: T.'I~ be there.;_ Councilman Workman: And [hat will be kind of a precedence too because I don't think ~¢,~;'ve ever hal~ded over a site plan 'revlew to the HRA have we? I mean if.'s k.¢nd of dlffererlt for us ~ would tlllnk. Co,znciluomai', Oiml:;r: Well j~mst to get thoir commenl, s and then we could take it up at our next meetlng ifs what I'm saylng. Todd Gerhard~: IL's more o'f the curb cuL issue. Councilman Workmal,;' We're goil,9 to bring this back in ~wo weeks? Hayor Chmiel- :£ tl~ink thr-;f'e's a problem with cOI'lstructioll oi~ tl~is, I don't wal]t to .jump before or' put the cart before the horse either, I want to make si.t'F~-.~ that it's a viable thing but Z'ln lookil~g at it froln ~ safety aspect of p'roblenlS it could cause, No'i. only problems of safety for our residents but also t heir Cl.tstolnef-3. Councilman Wing: So are we trusting the HRA to make that decis/on or the Council? Counci]wonlan Dimler: We're trusting the liRA to give us their input and then we make the decision ~t [he following meeting is wh&t Z am saying. CottncJ3. man Workman: You know even if we. if Chi Chi's was building a restaurant I~,;re, anybody that':-; going to bLtJ. ld on thls lot, is going to ask for this. Tllis going to be. He, yor C;hmiel: i'hey're not going to be the only ones, I agree. c;ouncilnlan Workman; I mean whoever builds on this lot is going to, that's what 7'm saying. ~ don't know wha[ 2 weeks does to the schedule. Tt sounds 11kc tl~i. nos are kind of moving fast or tl~ese are dellcate months for constructiol~. I ttlink that '.thls is, waltlng does]l't hurt ine you know. That doesn't bother me. T..jltsf. think with what we kllow about tl~e bJest ?Sth Street detachment and everything 8~se thaL we need to do to tha~ road from Market to Powers, that is City Council Meeting - August 12, 1991 going to happen. And that this is going to be a part of any site plan that comes into this thing. I don't know that delaying it, I guess I would rather approve the site plan unless HRA has a serious problem. Much like we do with staff. Councilwoman Dimler: But then you're giving the HRA the final say and that's kind of reverse of what we usually do. Mayor Chmiel: Well we're making that say here basically too but if they don't agree with that, otherwise why would you go to the HRA. Councilman Wing: But maybe the HRA needs to look at the fact that there needs to be a formal entrance at that point to the shopping center and bank and maybe that should be a stop slgn entry. If lt's that crltlcal to business and the entry, maybe that shouldn't just be a haphazard left turn lane to feed the bank. Maybe it ought to be actually a stop slgn to feed the center at that point. Mayor Chmiel: Stop sign in conjunction with the stop and go light. Councilman Wing: I look at the curb cuts in Wayzata. What a nuisance trying to get across and in and out. They tend to want to cut them down and keep trafflc flowlng one direction but it ls true. I don't 11ke coming back to something. mean wlth all due respect to them coming in or not coming in, I think we've got a real future problem we've got to address and I would sure hate to. I wasn't here for West 78th Street but I know there's people who would like to hang some people who were and I don't want to make a decision that's golng to further... Councilwoman Oimler: Exactly. I can see some problems. If it's that critical, I guess maybe it needs more addressing. Councilman Workman: I just think it's going to happen. Mayor Chmiel: No question. Anybody who's going to go lnto that particular location is going to request another access. I don't care if it's the bank or as Tom sald, Chi Chl's or whoever. Councilman Workman: And I think the curb cut's going to happen and the nuances of exactly how that's going to be addressed with stop slgns or how long or how deep or how wlde should be handled when the West ?8th because I think it's going to happen. Mayor Chmiel: Accessibility from west or going west. How about if that curb cut was put in there and it was a right-in/right-out? Paul Krauss: It basically is just that. You will not be able to leave the site and go east. You will not be able to go up through here. You'll be able to turn through there and come in and this will feed... Councilwoman Oimler: Going west is going to be a bummer. You have to go east to go west agaln. Mayor Chmiel: Essentially it's going to be there. With the right-ln and right-out with that curb cut. 67 P¢~lJ.l ;( F ;.: W ;-'3 :7. ' T ~ yot.t WQi'lt t o go wer:t bound oil 78t h 5 ~ feet you' 11 have '[ o go over to idontr~r'~:y 811fJ (:Offm(~ OU[ l:l~at way. Councilman Workm2, r~= ~ agree with that, we'll go to Market. H,ttyor Chmiel; Ok¢.ty, '~ tl~ink we shot~].d come up with some kind of conclusion. Tl~c~'e Mas a motion on tt~e floor to give 'this to HRA to revlew. Co~.~ncilman ~],llgt ~ bi,ink we all rc¢ct].izo the gravity of this situatLon Z gl~ess ['!i s1.,.ty sg~'~h my ori. gil~a.~ ~f~otion Don if you're coBfof'table wlth that. M,'~y4~i- ClimLr¢~.~ Bo you want Lo f'cp~at youi' C(~ttnoZJm,~l-~ ~imlg.' Z ~m~ove approval of Ibis site plan as presented wlth the f-equet~t for the cul'b cut pendim'mg f-sviow and fin&ti decisioll by ttRA. I would aDler'ore i'i. ~J.t h t l~e HRA's parallel. Cottrmct].m,~n Workmal~; So it wo~zld not come back? Counc.ilm,~n Wing: It would no( come back. Comtm~.~lwom~n 0imle'r" 5o we're gi¥in9 them finai saM? Cou~cilman WJ.l'mg~ What we't'~ dolng is apl>rov.ing the curb c[tt unless HRA says Cl'me.r'lo¢:; Folcl'm' Nr. Mayor, i'i' I m~y inter'.fec'L. We should probably clarlfy the 'c~rminology for curb cut because a curb cut could jus[ be [he right-in/right-.out hm.tt I think wh~tt (hey'r'e f'equesting here in ~dditioi~ to (hat is the medi,~n cut. i ~.hink th,~[ needs to be cl~zrlfied. councilm~ Wing, Y~s;:th, Lhe med.i.;~n c~( would be left ~:~-~ westbou~M o~ly and ,thr~t's ~hat i'm i~,i. enctirmg here. chalices Folcl~: Exac(.1.y. Coonci. lman Wing: WouJ. d somebody c:larify my motion and make i'[ proper. H,¢.yor Ci~miel~ I think you just cla¢lfied it right Counci].m~tn Wi.~g: ]:f the~'e's ;.~n undeso[andin9 of that. But let me clarify it f. hen. Rigl~-in/~i~'¢hL--out, left turn westbrou~d medi~n cut. A!right. And we recog~ize 'Lha( West 78th Street as is is not very functional so lt's really pcndin~ on Lh8 HRA's decisf, on to get going on that widening process. Councilman Wo~'k~mam'm' Well I ti,ir'mk Lhis calls '(hat polnt to question. It's got [.,o be dom~:. Now ~e're going to just start going all the way up to the Dinner Theatre to take cc, re of it I guess. Com.~ncilmc~n WJ. n9.' I i~.ke ~h~ project ,'.~nd I'd like to move that motion. Courm(..ilman Workmarm. I'll second it. City Council Meeting - August Councilman Wing moved, Counci]man Workman seconded to approve Site Plan Review ~91-3 as shown on the site plan dated 3uly 29, 1991 pending rev£eu and appFoYal of the left turn westbound median cut by the HRA and subject to the following conditions: 1. The applicant must obtain a sign permit prior to erecting any signage on site. Sign plans should be revised to eliminate the monument sign, reduce the wall sign height to 3 feet and incorporate requested directional signage. 2. Additional landscaping shall be provided along the north edge of the site as proposed in the staff report. The applicant shall provide staff with a detalled cost estlmate of landscaping to be used in calculating the required financial guarantees. These guarantees must be posted prior to bulldlng permlt issuance. Provlde a plant schedule indicating the size and [ype of all plant materials for staff approval. 3. The applicant shall enter into a development contract with the city and provide the necessary financial securities as required. If the West 78th Street curb cut ls approved, the applicant shall be requlred to compensate the clty for all costs related to its design and construction. 4. Revise architectural plans as follows: - Incorporate dormers of increased size or other acceptable measures to enhance the design of the roof line. - Provide details of HVAC screening. Incorporate the use of Timberline or similar quality shingles that provide an lmage of a cedar shake roof. - Provide details of building exterior treatment indicating consistency with shopping center construction. -- Eliminate the proposed building addition from the plans since adequate parking cannot be provided on site. - Revise plans as necessary to ensure that a 25 foot setback is provided to all portlons of the building, including the entrance canopy. Revise tl,e plans as required to ensure that room is provided for safe turnlng movements for cars exltlng the drive-thru lanes. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mayor Chmiel: Replat a portion of Outlot A, Market Square into a 40,000 square foot lot and 39,600 square foot lot. Any concerns regarding that? At least I don't see any on that speclfic one. Councilman Workman: I'd move approval. Councilwoman Oimler: Second. 69 City (:CUl'~¢:.i.] He.,~-,'i.j~g -~ AugL~-~i. 12, 1_79i CouncL]man Borkman moved, CouncJluomdn DimJer seconded to app;-ove Subdivision ¢91-8 as shoun on the pZat dated 3uly 29, 1991 uith the following cond£tions; J.. Park and trail dedicatiol', fees shall be paid at 'Lime bu~!d~ng permits are i' ;¢ q Lte s'~ 2. Pi'ov](Je the fo].lowil~9 eas~.ments~. a. s!.and,'-,,rd (lr,:.tin,~ge ;~nd util.i, ty easements around the perimeter o'f all !ets. b. A I0' >: O0' utility easement located 'to the southeast corner of the bank building running i~ 'favor' of NSP. Cl. The ~'ina.i. j~l. at for the entire Market Square shopping center must be submitLed to staff for approve,], and Filed ~itl', Carver County. The plat n:-~ed:.; I.o b9 r~vJsed, as does this reque~Led lot division ~o accommodate the additional 10 'feet of Y.i. ght.-o[--way along West 78th StYeet tha~ is being r'eqm~.ire~J by the City. d. C~os:s ~,c:ce:'~.~:: :~.semul]'Ls lleed to be provided over the sou~h driveway ~nd northe'r~: 30 Feet of the ne~]y created p~'rcel Located south of the bank ol~ Outlot ,q. Ali voted in favor and the motion carried. ifiu. y,'):' Chmiei: Item (c), PUD ,'.tmendmenl. (o add a bank building to Market Square si~opping center. OOl~nOilwoman 0imioF: I move approval.. Council marl Workman; Second. Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve an amendment to PUD #89.-2 as shown on plans dated July 29, 1991. All voted in favor and the mot/on carr.ied~ Tocld Gerhafd'L- l'h(~ lIRA meets here aL 7:30 on Thursday. liayoi' Ci]lri.Lel: Thursday evening. A couple days fl'om now. You'i1 see a few of the same familiar ,races. K~rl~ Ja(;oL)son: What do we need to do to present? Do we .just attend? 'to,Id fir.:Yhardt: It's goillg ilo bo a staff 'report and you answe~ any questions. Player Chmio].: X'd like to see staff spell this out a iittle bit more clearly wil'!] .v, clr:.~Wirl~.) ~.Lbl'm thos~ respective cuts. Showing %lla[ right-.-in/right--out with ,_:u,',~ uu~...'~ ~s w~t~ tile left turn lane, ,,n~ ~he s~me approximate locatlon thJ~ wom.l.l.~! b:¢ loc,.~ted i1: re!ation~l'l[p to the propert?. KF,'~LtSS: SRF has already taken a look at that. We have a drawing we can fac'!: .if i would hay;:: remembered we could have brought it tonight. 7O Ci. ty Council Meeting - August ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: 1991 CONGRESS OF CITIES CONFERENCE, ASSISTANT CITY MANAGER. Todd Gerhardt: How many people will be attending this year's National League of Cities Conference in Las Vegas? Don wished that I poll Councilmembers that will be attendJ, ng so we can start looking at reservations. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I'm going to be... Councilman Wing: I would intend to probably use my own airfare as a cost savings. Councilman Workman: For all of us? Mayor Chmiel: Can you take friends? Can you rent a 747? Councilman Workman: I am a member of the Transportation and Communications Policy Group. Councilm~tn Wing: Under Council presentations, did you by-pass that? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah I did intentionally. I pretty much mentioned it in the first part of it. Councilman Wing: I would like to move tabling lO(b) which was an item I requested until the next meeting. Mayor Chmiel: Is there a second? Councilman Wing: With one additional item. I would like added to that list. Mayor Chmiel: You know could I just interrupt you for a second? I think that a lot of these items are done at the Planning Commission with the updates that staff goes through so with the Minutes that we have, normally you can read on each of these respective items that Paul presents. Councilman Wing: I'm looking for a little bit of advertising and public record so I intended it to be a very short simple presentation because it has been covered. I'd just 11ke it almost to be read off but I would 11ke to add as an item 5 for the nex~ agenda, and I'd like it to be earlier in the evening, HRA presentations, specifically regarding downtown mall or center. It's status and I'd 11ke to request the HRA to comment on their architectural intent for that center. Are we st111 friends Mr. Mayor? Mayor Chmiel: I don't know what you're talking about Dick. Councilman Wing: I'm suggesting these be very simple. Very brief comments. Councilwoman Dimler: I'll second that motion. 71 Councilman Wi. rig moved, Councilwoman Dialer seconded to table item lO(b), 1 thru 4 with the addition of lIRA status and architectural design. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CouT~cilwoman Oimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:55 Suhmi~L~.,d by Oon Asllwortl'~ Cit. y Hanag~.;r Prepr.~red by N~l'~l~ OphoLrn 72