1991 07 22CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
JULY 22, 1991
Mayor Chmlel called the meetlng to order at 7:30 p.m.. The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
'MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Workman, Councilman Mason, Councilman
Wing, and Councilwoman Oimler
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Todd Gerhardt, Charles Folch, Paul
Krauss, Sharmin Al-Jarl, Scott Hart and Todd Hoffman
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Mason seconded to
approve the agenda with the following addition: Mayor Chmiel uanted to discuss
the letter from the Senlor Commission under Councll Presentations. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEHENTS: None.
CONSENT AGENDA: Counclluoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendations:
a. Storm Water Management Plan, Authorize Execution of Contract, Bonestroo
Rosene Anderlik and Associates.
b. Kurvers Polnt Second Addition, Project g1-11:
1) Approve Development Contract
2) Approve Plans and Specifications for Street and Utility Improvements
d. Resolution ~91-67: Accept Utilities tn Chart Haven Plaza Third Addition,
Project 91-2.
e. Resolution 1r91-68: Call Assessment Hearlng Dates for:
1) Audubon Road South Improvement Project 89-18
2) Frontier Trail Improvement Project 89-10
3) Country Hospitality Suites Project 89-25
4) Lake Ann Interceptor Sever Project 87-35
f. Approval of Accounts
g. City Council Minutes dated July 9, 1991
Park and Recreation Commission Minutes dated June 25, 1991
h. Approve Wetland Alteration Permit, Herman Field Park.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
City Council Heetino -July 22, 1991
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
Mike Pflaum: My name is Mike Pflaum. I'm Vice President of Lundgren Bros.
Construction and I wanted to bring up a matter for I imagine future
consideration by the City Council. It pertains to a city policy which I just
recently became aware of which I feel is perhaps counter productive and Lundgren
Bros. is concerned about it being damaging to development. The policy has to do
with the point at which building permits are issued in new development. This is
a policy which strangely enough, even though we've been developing in the
community for about 10 years, has never come to our attention up to the present
where ue are now developing a plat called Trappers Pass 4th and having been
delayed by weather and so forth, are seeking a building permit prior to, and
this is the key, the application of a blacktop surfaced street. The policy
briefly stated is that no building permits will be issued until the utilities
have been accepted and there is a blacktop covering on the street. What I would
like the City Council to do is hopefully review this particular policy in light
of the development world of 1991 which basically prohibits development of large
projects and because of difficulties in obtaining financing, restricts the
amount of time that a developer has to pay back the money, the capltal that ls
lent to development in the first place. The situation in today's world is that
the traditional development lenders, meaning Savlngs and Loans and banks are out
of the picture. Recent problems with the real estate loans have sent them
runnlng for cover. They're maklng thelr money on consumer lendlng and so forth.
We, as a developer, have had dozens and dozens of dealings wlth major banks and
savings and loans and not one of them has ever lost a dlme on us but because of
policy decisions in those institutions, they don't want any part of land
development lendlng. So we have been forced to rely upon alternate sources of
capital. Those sources are basically vendors. People that are dependent upon
development for their livelihood and thus see a motivation beyond the mere
interest that they earn for providing revenue to us for development. The nature
of those loans are that they are in smaller amounts and they are for shorter
durakion. The policy that the City is presently enforcing essentially postpones
for anywhere up to I would lmagine 6 months, perhaps longer, the start of
cashflow back to the developer to pay off his obligations and we think it's a
very serlous problem. It may never have come up. Nobody may have ever brought
it to your attention but it is a problem and we'd like two things. Flrst off
we'd 11ke the City Councll to dlrect staff to look at alternatives to thls
policy. We'd 11ke to have some documentation of what specific problems that
have necessitated thls pollcy and we would 11ke the Clty staff to have enough
latitude in making decisions to be able to make objective decisions as to
whether or not the lssuance of certaln bulldlng permlts would not be
inconsistent with the objectives of the current policy and thus enable us and
other developers who mlght be in the same position, to be able to get some work
underway. As I say this ls, for us a very important issue. In terms of just
about a 2 second explanation of why we never heard about it before. It's my
understanding that the pollcy is a couple of years old. It is not incorporated
in any of our development contracts so we would not learn about it through them
and the fact of the matter is, I looked back over our record of development in
this clty, we have only developed one plat in about the last 4 years. That was
Trappers Pass 3rd and I checked Trappers Pass 3rd and discovered that our first
bulldlng permlt was applied for after there was a blacktop surface on the street
so we dldn't flnd out about it then elther. We found out about it just
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
recently. So if the City Council would consider our request, we would be most
grateful. That's all I've got to say.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Mike. Anybody from staff address?
Charles Folch: Yes Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. Mike and I have talked
about thls a couple of times on the phone at great length. Essentially a number
of issues that he has presented tonight and to date I guess all we can, between
staff and Mr. Pflaum hlmself I guess all we can do rlght now ls agree to
disagree. There's a number of concerns that have developed if you will or
pre-empted why thls pollcy has been established administratively. It was
basically started before my term and I know that since coming on board myself,
all the plats that we have approved and developments that have occurred have
basically followed this policy and we haven't had a complaint from any developer
concerning lt. A couple of main lssues associated wlth thls and one of course
is safety. I guess I've talked with Scott Hart, the Public Safety Director
concerning thls matter and Scott's here tonlght to address some of the safety
aspects and requirements of why we have such a policy.
Scott Hart: Charles and I have discussed this this morning. This is not a
concern that had been brought to my attention by Lundgren before. Our primary
concerns are flrst of all wlth the utilities. We want to make sure that water
supplies are adequate and on 11ne but regarding the road surface, our hands are
tled by the Unlform Flre Code which applles to Chanhassen that requlres fire
access roads to developments like the one being discussed. And the fire code
requlres an all weather drlvlng surface and a surface that would be adequate to
support any fire response vehlcles that we'd be using. So in that respect we
see that our hands are somewhat tled to go ahead wlthout some mlnlmal road
surfaces in that addition.
Charles Folch: Sort of further continuing on that issue, one of the other
problems that typically occur, if we allow building permits to occur before
utilities are accepted and before the flrst 11ft of bituminous ls down, some
thought has been, or it has been suggested by Mr. Pflaum that some other
communities require that those installations not be complete prlor to the CO
being given. However, if that occurs or if we allow that to occur what often
tlmes happens ls the lots are sold, the homes are bullt and we get a call 2 days
before a closing is to occur from the mortgage company wanting to know why the
CO isn't given on the property and utilities may be 2 or 3 weeks away from belng
completely accepted or the street, maybe the first lift of bituminous isn't in.
They're upset. They're mad at the City for allowlng this to occur and not
having better control of the project and so having thls requirement I thlnk
glves us more control over the progress of the project. I've also contacted a
number of other area communities to find out what their policy is on this matter
and what I found ls there's a varlety of requirements made. Anywhere from not
allowing or not requiring these utilities and streets to be accepted or not
granting a CO until they're completed all the way to belng the most stringent
where some communities don't even allow private developers to install the
streets and utilities. I think Chanhassen sort of slts in the middle of the
pack with the policy on this issue.
Mayor Chmiel: Charles, with the amount of driving in and out of there, would
this cause any problems as far as crowning? In other words, getting depressions
City Council Meeting - July 22, /99l
within that road and then comes back and does the regrading.
Charles Folch: Well it's often times that's a very good question. That's often
times a problem. What you can have is if you just have a Class V base put down
on the road and then you let subcontractors come in and build homes, as you can
pretty well imagine from what ue see, all the dirt and silt and erosion that
occurs on our streets now from the lots that are being developed. Often times
what happens is that Class V gets contaminated and next spring we're in a 3 way
argument between the City, the developer and the home builder as to who
contaminated the Class V and who's responsible for sub-cutting or replacing. It
can be a real mess.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright.
Frank Kurvers: I guess I want to speak on this same issue. I'm Frank Kurvers
from Kurvers Land Company. I think Mr. Pflaum, what he said about financing is
100~ true because I think there could be a reasonable mix I think as far as
allowing. I don't think you should allow the entire development to open up and
build houses on it but I think there should be some type of percentage maybe
given close to a hard surface or something like that where you would be able to
recover some of your money that you have invested and you really can't get any
return on it. All you do is pay interest. So there should be, I think some
kind of a mix rather than say no you can't do it. I agree that you could
probably destroy some of the soil as far as getting the tar down in the spring
or fall. Whenever you do that but I think overall when you get the compaction
of the street, you're still going to get a good street. $o I go on record
supporting Pflaum.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Mike Pflaum: Can I just make two quick points?
Mayor Chmiel: Come up to the microphone please.
Mike Pflaum: The first point I wanted to make was that this question of fire
access. It seems to me that the responsibilities for fire protection extend to
occupled homes. The developer or bullder who's constructing homes that are
beyond the reach of the fire equipment would have to rely upon whatever
protection the insurance pollcles provlde. Furthermore thls buslness about
contaminating streets and so forth. The City of Chanhassen has financial
guarantees for every development that it does not release untll after lt's
completed. If the work has not been satisfactorily completed by the developer,
the Clty has the wearuitha11 through those letter of credit to do it ltself.
I've heard a number of posslble problems that could occur if thls policy were
relaxed or altered in any fashlon. I have not heard speclflc problems that
actually have occured and I would like to hear about what the motivation ls. Not
what the potential problem thls ls to avold ls. I don't think that's falr to
the developer.
Mayor Chmiel: I don't think we're here to argue those polnts right now.
Mike Pflaum: No.
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
Mayor Chmiel: Let me just ask you another question. In your development of
Trappers Pass and Trappers Pass 3, in developing or putting in a model home, had
any considerations been given to developing that particular home right adjacent
to the tarred street before you come into your new subdivision?
Mike Pflaum: We have a model home right at the line between the new subdivision
and the old subdivision which we obtained a building permit for from the clty.
It's my understanding that some of the municipalities that have a slmllar policy
to this do not enforce it quite the way that I understand Chanhassen intends to
enforce lt. In other words, Minnetonka and Eden Prairle have a very slmllar
sort of policy but they permit thelr staff to make objective decisions as to the
prudence of lssulng a bulldlng permlt because of the location of the home. Now
I think that the City of Chanhassen has got a fine staff that is perfectly
capable of making the same kinds of decisions. But at the same time I would
like to see (a), not only the City staff be able to do that but (b), I'd like to
see a revlew of the pollcy to see if the pollcy ls necessary.
Mayor Chmiel: I think I'd like to make just a quick recommendation. Being we
can't take actlon on this at thls particular tlme, I'd 11ke to see staff work
with Mr. pflaum to somehow come up in resolving these speciflc issues with a
given problem and if there seems to be some discussion back and forth, I suggest
then we get it on our next agenda to come up with some kind of a conclusion. I'd
11ke to be kept abreast as to what the status is and where it is on the
particular project as well. Okay? Ooes Council have any input at this
particular tlme?
Councilman Workman: Does this require a motion?.
Mayor Chmiel: No.
Councilman Workman: I guess dozens of times a year citizens who are new
residents of the community come to us and say why didn't you stop this developer
or thls developer and I would 11ke some more information from Publlc Safety and
Engineering on why exactly this is because on the surface it would appear as
though it's a protection for the people who are eventually buying those homes.
perfectly reputable developers have done large subdivisions in this City have
left us a couple years later holding many a bag and so my allegiance would be to
the buyer of the home and not to restrict development and developers coming in
here but we've seen it all too many tlmes. We have to answer for the developer
when the developer is now long gone. Being on the Board of Adjustments and
approving of variances, large named developers bulldlng homes wlth sliding glass
doors which can never bulld a deck. Your builders for life to name one. And so
whlle they're reputable and I know they have, Lundgren Bros. has good
intentions, the financial world is not our dolng and I'd like to have definitely
further information on it.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Any other discussion on it? If not, we move on to the
next item.
AWARD OF BIDS: CITY CENTER PARK HANDICAPPED ACCESSIBLE PLAYGROUND EOUIPHENT.
Todd Hoffman: Mr. Mayor and City Council. As noted, this award of bid is for
the handicapped accessible playground structure at Clty Center Park. Thls ls to
City Council Meeting -- July 22, 1991
be purchased with the Hennepin County Community Development Block Grant monies.
Bids were opened last Tuesday morning. We received two bids in the amount of
$19,700.00 and $19,958.00. The low bid was received from Flanagan Sales who
quoted Iron Mountain Forge Equipment. It is staff's recommendation that that
bid be awarded to Flanagan Sales in the amount of $19,500.00 for both the base
bid of Phase I and Phase II and the alternate bid of Phase III at $6,280.00
which is part of that $19,500.00.
Mayor Chmiei: Okay, any questions? Tom.
Councilman Workman: Todd, did the people that bid have a pretty good idea about
the amount we were allocating?
Todd Hoffman: The amount of dollars allocated on that? Not any idea from staff
or no, they didn't know our budgeted target amount. But we did, as in other
projects you want to design the particular piece of equipment to expend the
maximum amount of dollars because if we did not expend that Community
Development Block 6rant money, lt's gone. But we had $20,000.00 of which to
expend so the project was designed to flt that budget amount. And in dealing
wlth playground equipment, lt's falrly easy to go ahead and calculate those
types of dollar amounts so we designed the structure to meet that.
Councilman Workman: I guess another quick point. On another Board that I'm on
we had a $?0,000.00 contract and everybody tha~ bid on it knew that it was
$70,000.00. ~11 the bids were within $100.00 of each other. $69,750.00 or
whatever which you know, I don't know which is tile right way to go. I guess we
publically announced that ue wanted to use the Block Grant money, etc..
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. I think that's been some of my concerns with some of the
bids just because ue come up with a specific bid. We have to be careful as to
how it does go out and or if that information does go out. Being these are
public hearings and people watch this maybe on TV, there's no nay of hiding it.
Maybe we're going to have to become a little more discreet in determining total
numbers to give the Council and so ue can keep it on the table here rather than
talking about it at the time prior to submitting bids. Oftentimes if you have
an awful lot of hungry people, specifically contractors who are bidders for the
respective item that ue have, we may be getting better bids so somehow we have
to watch that. Bon.
Don Ashworth: Z should note though that in this particular project ue had
employed Mark Koegler to give his advice as to how much it would generally cost
to put in playground, handicapped accessible playground equipment over at that
park. We based our grant application to Hennepin County then on that amount.
In going out for bids, items like this as Todd noted, you already really know
what most of the pricing is. If you asked us for a specific design, we could
almost tell you because all of this equipment is literally out of catalogs so ~
don't think that this is a situation in which the bidder knew what ue were, how
much money we had and bid to that amount. They bid to get the work and ue did a
good job of insuri)~g that we'd put as much equipment into that park as ue could
for the amount of money we had available to us.
Mayor Chmiel: It's a tittle different situation than from some of the other
bids that ue get.
City Council Meeting - July 22, 199i
Don Ashworth: I think so.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright. Any other discussion? If not, can I have a motion?
Councilman Workman: I would move approval of the award of bids, City Center
Park Handicapped Accessible Playground Equipment.
Councilwoman Oimler: Second.
Councilman Workman: I would add that that would go to Flanagan Sales.
Resolution ~1-69: Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Oimler seconded to
award the bid for the handicapped accessible playground equipment for City
Center Park to Flanagan Sales in the amount of $19,500.00. All voted in favor
and the motion carried unanimously.
HINNEWASHTA PARKWAY FEASIBILITY; AUTHORIZE PREPARATION OF PLANS AND
SPECIFICATIONS, PROJECT 90-15.
Public Present:
Name Address
Julie Flemming
Jim & Lois Zaste
Ken Smith
Gordon Freeburg
Jim Connor
B. Fuller
Nancy Neison
Harry & Chris Drahos
Zoe Bros
Jim & Susan Sulstrand
Steven Erickson
Jeanette Boley
Jim Borchard
Jim 3osin
Peter Benjamin
A1H. Klingelhutz
Boris Hanson
Edwin & Leivia Seim
Robert G. Schunight
Peter Hoe
Pam Smith
A1 & Carla Smith
Marcia Rowland
Ed Oathout
Alice 3ohnson
Don & Barb Bittermann
Louis Guthmueller
David L. Tester
Jery L. Kortgard
Jim & Ruth A. Boyian
3966 Linden Circle
3960 Linden Circle
3837 Red Cedar Point
3891 Lone Cedar Lane
3901 Red Cedar Point Drive
7025 Red Cedar Cove
3891 Linden Circle
3911 Linden Circle
6631 Minnewashta Parkway
3831 Red Cedar Point Road
3850 Leslee Curve
7414 Minnewashta Parkway
7331 Minnewashta Parkway
7301Minnewashta Parkway
7231Minnewashta Parkway
8600 Great Plains Blvd.
6210 Cypress Drive
3616 Red Cedar Point Drive
Bonestroo, Rosene, Anderiik
7141Minnewashta Parkway
3714 Hickory Road
3706 Hickory Road
3921 Glendale Drive
3940 Hawthorne Circle
3940 Glendale Orive
7085 Red Cedar Cove
7095 Red Cedar Cove
3897 Lone Cedar Lane
3901 Glendale Orive
6760 Minnewashta Parkway
City Count).1. Meeting , July 22, 1991
Name
Address
Kevin CuddJ. hy
Tim Fisher
Dave Headla
Dave Hempel
JoAnn Hallgren
Lura Genz
Deborah & Janet Hofer
Charles H. Anding
Ric & Marianne Anding
Charles & Uicki Anding
Ada Anding
Jill Hempel
Michael Oavid Kammerer
CI)risti Monette
S¢olt Kalash
Linda Barter
3900 Stratford Ridge
7099 Red Cedar Cove
6870 Minneuashta Parkway
3707 South Cedar Drive
6860 Minnewashta Parkway
7096 Red Cedar Cove
7098 Red Cedar Cove
3631 South Cedar Drive
3715 South Cedar Drive
6601Minnewashta Parkway
3631 South Cedar Drive
3707 South Cedar Drive
4000 Crestview Drive
4000 Crestview Drive
4000 Crestview Drive
3624 Red Cedar Point
Mayo)-Chmiel: What I'd like to do at this particular time, we had several
questions that were asked of the City. Council, staff and anyone else who had
questions were directed to Bill. What I asked 8111 to do was prepare some
answers back for each of those questions. I would like to go through that
process first and have him address those. Then what I'd like to do as well, in
sitting down with Bill last week, Monday and this Monday as well. I would also
11ks him to go over tile State Aid, extending that for some additional dollars
plus taklng out approximately $91,000.00 for the walls uhlch would brlng, if the
project were to go through, would brlng the totai assessments down. So with
that I'd 11ks 8111 to take it from there and address those lssues.
8111 Engelhardt: Thank you you)' Honor. Members of tile Council. My name is
Blll Engelhardt, Engelhardt and Associates of Chaska. As the Mayor indicated,
l'v,'-; spent the past 2 weeks going through tile Minutes of tile previous meeting,
the July 8th meetlng. I've attempted to address the concerns that the property
owners spoke of the night of the July 8th meeting. In general the questions
focused on slx major lssues. I thlnk what I'd 11ks to do ls summarize those slx
major issues and then I have each individual property owner that spoke. I've
pulled out of the Minutes again their comments and to the best of my ability
I'll try and answer them for you. Tile six issues that I focused on that I think
are the major concerns with this particular project is number one safety.
Number two, proposed new road width. Number three, tile walkway. Number four,
project environmental concerns and drainage. Number five, the cost of the
project and number six, tile method of funding of tile project. Now to clarify
each of those six issues, safety. Minnewashta Parkway in our opinion is
deficient .tn about every category of design for a safe roadway as it exists
today. We have poor sight distances. The roadway width is inadequate. We have
problems with vertical alignment as well as horizontal alignment. That means
the hills that you have to go over, the curbs that you have to go around. We
have poor slopes and alignment of access points on the major arterial highways.
Specifically TH 7 and TH 5. We have no shoulder areas. There are no clear
zones. Cleat- zones is tile traffic terminology for the distance from the edge of
the road to obstructions. When you have a rural section under your State Aid
~alldard.s, which the road exists today, that's generally considered a safe zone
City Council Heeting - July 22, 1991
or clear zone is generally considered to be 40 feet. Now that's quite a bit
different if you use the barrier curb which we're proposing on the proposal.
The barrler curb allows those obstructions to be within I to 2 feet. Structural
strength of the roadway is very questionable and there's no separation of
pedestrian or vehlcle trafflc at thls time. Second issue was of the proposed
new roadway width. The reconstruction of the roadway is proposed to be 32 feet
back of curb to back of curb. The right-of-way in thls particular area ls 66
feet and the existing roadway, as it's constructed today varies from 28 to 22
feet wlth the 22 foot section belng on the southerly end closest to TH 5. In
general the roadway ls about 28 feet throughout the length. The new design adds
approximately 6 1riches of bituminous to the present edge and 18 inches of gutter
11ne or concrete gutter. In most areas the new width we feel will not encroach
on the manicured lawns. We're golng to be worklng pretty much wlthin the
disrupted area adjacent to the existing bituminous mat. The reduced width keeps
the tree clearlng to a minlmum but we have also incorporated replacement trees
as part of the project. The pedestrian separation would be provided by the use
of a barrier curb and boulevards wherever possible. Proposed walkways 6 feet in
width in conjunction with a maximum boulevard of about 5 feet. We'd have a
total construction width of 43 feet. The boulevard uldth u111 vary under
certain circumstances where we're going to be trying to save trees. Work with
driveways and the close proximity of residents. Agaln the proposed walkway ls 6
feet in width. Construction of the walkway alone is not recommended. With a
clear defined separation ls battler curb. You have the possibility and the
potential of vehicle directly accessing the walkway. In addition to that,
future reconstruction of the roadway along ulth drainage facilities uill require
removal of any walkway constructed today. We also feel that the cost of the
walkway ls estimated at 10~ to 20% less if bld wlth the overall project so the
State Ald funds would provide funding for the retaining walls, tree removal and
tree replacement. Fourth lssue, dralnage and storm sewer facilities. Present
drainage patterns do not provide for erosion control or storm water treatment.
There's uncontrolled drainage to the dltch sectlons or the side of the road
which increases with every heavy storm. The uncontrolled drainage in the dltch
results in the contamination throughout the entire street. From vehicles. From
salt, sand, snow and even from the lawn and weed control and the fertilizers.
The utilization of curb and gutter and storm sewer control dralns from the
streets and the adjacent areas conveys the.storm water to retention ponds where
the heavler particles are settled out. Floatlng material ls sklmmed prior to
discharge. With the use of these types of facilities you can control the rate
of discharge and regulate your discharge. The Clty ls presently undertaking a
storm water management program for the entire city and I feel that this area
will requlre work in the future even if the street construction ls not
undertaken. The proposed design uill require both the approval of the DNR and
the Watershed Districts. We'll be uorklng very closely with them to coordinate
and provlde for the best methods of treatment for the storm water. Fifth ltem
was cost. The estimated project cost in the original study was $2,112,738.00.
That cost £ncluded a reduction of approximately ,100,000.00 due to reducing the
road width from 36 feet to 32 feet. That reduction in the roadway width came
about after the neighborhood meetlngs and discussions wlth HnDot where HnOot
allowed us to go do~n to 32 feet. The shiftlng of the walkway as discussed at
the last meeting from the east side of the road to the west slde of the road
from TH ? and Klngs Polnt Road will also result in the savings of approximately
$95,000.00. We will not have to construct as much retaining wall as originally
anticipated. Therefore the estimated project cost ls ,2,017,738.00. The
City Council lteeti~g -- July 22, 1991
funding for this project will be provided by four sources. Number one,
10unicipal State ~id Street Funds. Number two, General Obligation Bonds. Number
three, Special ~ssessments and number four, the Trunk Water Funds. Under
funding, Hinnesota State hid Fund for designated streets, the City of Chanhassen
has an annual allotment of $274,378.00. This amount will increase each year and
is estimated at $323,000.00 for future years. The a~nual allotment of Hinnesota
State ~id Street Funds depends on the population and future needed road
construction dollars. These are all taken into account and added together for
cities that are over 5,000 and allocated each year. ~s the City expands and the
population grows, a proportionate share of dollars assigned to Chanhassen
increases. It also should be noted that monies that aren't encumbered does have
the effect of reducing your allotment of your State ~id dollars. This is very
· rare though. This money must also be used only in Hunicipal State ~id streets
that are designated by the City and approved by HnDot. The general obligation
funding as part of the project will be used for various items of the project
including storm sewer and walkway construction. This is in keeping with past
policy for projects previously undertaken. The special assessments for this
project was originally proposed at $3.,250.00 at an interest rate of 8~ over 8
years. The annual cost would be $256.00 the first year and reduced to $165.00
.tn the last year. Calculation for the assessments was based on a unit method
where raw land is calculated at 1.8 units per acre after reductions for wetland
and streets. Tn some cases developers had submitted sketch plans for several
areas where previous discussion~ had been held with the City and they developers
oT' property owners to determine the units of assessment. Now the City Council
requested an additional one year of State ~id funds be applied to this project.
The effect of adding additional State ~id funding will be a reduction in the
assessments to $758.55 per unit. We have to be very careful that this amount
equals 20~ of the project because under State Statute 429 for public
improvements, a minimum of 20% of the project must be assessed. The $758.55
meets that test. The present HS~S fund balance would be used including the 199l
funds plus 2.5 years of encumbered funds. This along with the general
obligatio~ bonds, the assessments and trunk water funds would finance the
project. Trunk water funds will be used for a very small amount of realignment
of some watermains to accommodate the construction. Now that's a summary of the
project. Some of the notes and comments that we heard during the meetings. I've
taken the Hinutes of the July 8th meeting and folks in each individual property
that spoke. The first one that I have is ~rlene Herndon and please excuse me if
I don't pl'onounce your names right. I'll do my best. Her comments focused on
the loss of property value and no benefit to the property. My answer to that is
a very general answer. Z've been experienced in projects of this nature for
about the past 20 years. Numerous projects of this nature have been undertaken
by both the City of Chanhassen, cities throughout the country, throughout the
metropolitan area. The test is benefit and I feel very strongly in this
paYticular case that ue could sustain the benefit if challenged in court. I also
believe that the improvements do tend to increase property values and that your
assessment would be sustained. Mr. Jim Boylan had several areas of concern.
Number one was street width. He questioned whether the 32 foot street was
verified by HnDot. The HnOot standards for a low density collector, which this
is designated as, allow for a 32 foot width and this has been verified by HnDot.
Fie was concerned with six maple trees that would be probably taken during the
project. We asked the DNR Forester to go out and examine those trees. Look at
them and render an opinion on those trees. Z've attached the letter from the
10
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
DNR Forester. If you'd like, I can read it or summarize it. It's up to the
Council.
Mayor Chmiel: I wish you would.
Bill Engelhardt: Okay. This is addressed to Bill Engelhardt from Alan Olson,
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. Subject: Sugar Maple trees at
the Boylan residence, 6?60 Minnewashta Parkway. The description of the trees
found ls as follows: Startlng wlth the northerly most tree in the row. Tree
~1. 45 lnch OBH. DBH stands for diameter of the tree where it's measured and
lt's measured 4 feet off the ground. $o the dlameter of that tree is 45 lnches
4 feet off the ground. His comment is it's hollow. He says multiple rot
pockets and forks 6 and 1/2 feet above the ground. The significance of the
forks in the tree at that width is that he feels that healthy trees need to have
thelr structures or thelr forks at 16 feet or above. It supports the canopy
better. Tree ~2 is 29 inch DBH. It's hollow. Forks 5 feet above the ground.
Tree ¢3, 30 inch DBH. Shows rot and forks at 8 feet. Tree ~4, 26 DBH. Shows
rot and forks at 10 feet. Tree ~5, twin tree rot at point of forks, 16 inches
and 14 lnch DBH. Tree ~6, 6 foot stump. Tree ~7, 23 inch DBH. Forks at 12
feet. Trees are from 52 to 56 feet tall and have multiple leaders with large
crowns. He goes on to say all these trees were planted at approximately the
same time. The estimated age is 100 years. I did not take a core sample to
more accurately determine their age. There are slgns of rot in all the trees
but the two trees north of the driveway having the most extensive rot. These
trees are a potential hazard to the road from splitting durlng stormy weather.
It is always difficult to accurately determine how much longer a tree will
live. These trees are certainly mature and showing signs of damage to the maln
stem of the tree. The vigor that these trees once had to outgrow problems is no
longer a part of these trees. As with anythlng living the growth slows down.
The tree reaches the later stages of it's life. This is where this group of
trees is at thls tlme. The next 1rem that Mr. Boylan spoke about was concern
for his next door neighbor not aware of the location of the new trail. I met
wlth Mr. Jeff Krlsten of 6810 Mlnneuashta Parkway on July 18, 1991. I explained
the location of the roadway and the trail. He was concerned with the saving of
his large maple tree. I feel that we wlll be able to save that tree. We will
have to make some adjustments in the walkway al£gnment. Mr. Kirsten was very
reasonable. We wlll revleu the flnal drawlngs with him prlor to blddlng. He
felt very comfortable with the proposal. Next item was the Eastern Carver
County Trafflc Study was in error. I guess the best I can say is the Eastern
Carver County Study was prepared for a coalition of cities along with Carver
County to plan for future trafflc volumes of the area. The study was conducted
using traffic models which incorporate TH Z and TH 5 corridors within these
citles and Chanhassen. I do also feel that the trafflc modeling that was done
had slightly higher numbers than what I think we're going to see out there from
a personal oplnlon. That's why in the designing of the roadway we used the low
density collector and the low volume of traffic. If we could have used modeling
at the higher rates that was suggested by the study, you would see an excess of
a 30 foot road. He questioned State Aid. This may be somewhat repetitive but I
think the confusion surrounding thls term is malnly due to the recent
legislative session uhere State Aid to cities was a commonly used term. The
correct terminology for thls project is Municipal State Ald for Street
Construction. Cities with a population of 5,000 or greater share in a pool of
money set aslde from the gas tax user fee. This money is proportionated to the
11
City Council Meeting -- July 22, 1991
cities o1~ an arlnual basis and it's based on the calculated cost or needs of the
City to rebuild or construct designated street. The annual allotment
incorporates a city's population. The greater the population the greater the
need the greater the proportionate share of money. Again the City of Chanhassen
has an annual allotment of $274,3?8.00. Based on the needs that have been
calculated for the City of Chanhassen, next year's allotment should be in the
range of $323,000.00. The next person who spoke, ~'m going to say Lettia Seim.
Okay, it's misspelled. I'm sorry for that. Her question basically centered on
why is the proposal changing? One day I come in and tell you one thing and the
next day I'm telling you something el~e. The street width was reduced through
the discussion with MnDot and this im very common practice. As the project goes
on you keep defining and redefining your concerns. The homeowner meeti;~gs were
very helpful. We took note of the comments from the homeowners and we tried to
address those and when we did address them, we needed to make changes. The
drainage was discussed with the DNR. That was another issue. Why does that
keep changing? One time it goes to Minneuashta. One time it goes to Lake
St. Joe. Again, through discussions with the DNR, these items change. They
need to be defined and even to this date we don't have a conclusive answer on
this. Most of these projects, review agencies will not give answers or comments
without a full set of design drawings to review. They will only comment in a
ge;]eral way of proposa].s which does leave the impression that we're changing
constantly. This cal~'t be avoided without a complete final set of drawings
submitted for their review and comment to the various agencies. Harvey Sobol's
question was, will Minnewashta Parkway become a TH 41. Proposed roadway design
will not turn Minneuashta Parkway into a highway 41. In fact a standard
Chanhassen residential street is 28 feet in width. The collector, as this is
being designed, carries traffic from a large area which increases the traffic
volumes which dictates a wider street design to meet the MnDot safety design
standards. The proposed roadway of 32 feet is only 4 feet wider than a typical
residential street for the city of Chanhassen. Peter Benjamin. Will
Minnewashta Parkway be 4 lanes? The answer is very simple and straight forward.
No. Mr. Ed Oathout. What is the design speed? The design speed for the
highway is 30 mph by State Statute. He feels that enforcement is the key to
speed control. In most cases and ue found this time and time again when speed
studies have been done, that a lot of times the residents who are driving the
road daily tend to speed slightly on the road. Basically because they're very
familiar with the road. Familiar with the hazards of the road and they'll tend
to increase their speeds somewhat. He also questioned the residential trips pet'
day. In the study we indicated that for design of roadways, traffic planning
utilizes 10 trips per day for residential area. This is a traffic planning
model number. It's been studied throughout the country and it's a well
documented number. It includes the number of trips that a resident or the
reside~ts will make from their residence. It also includes deliveries and those
types of things. For traffic planning and traffic design, the ~0 trips per day
is found to be a very accurate number. Omar Proshek questioned the increased
traffic. The only answer I can give to that, as the Metro area grows the
traffic volumes have grown. The traffic on the parkway will increase. State
Highway 41 and CR ~3 we feel will carry the majority of the traffic traveling
no'rrb or south between the two arterial state highways of 7 and 5. Those two
particular roadways the speed limit is 50--55 versus a speed limit of 30 mph of
the Min~ewashta Parkway proposal. He also questioned where does State Aid come
from? We the taxpayers. Mr. Proshek is correct. It comes from the taxpayer.
It comes from the gas tax that you pay on your gasoline. Not only from the
12
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
residents but it comes from trucks and it comes from corporations all paying the
gas tax into the system and it's divided according to the formulas for State Aid
again where each city over 5,000 receives their proportionate share based on
their population. MT'. Dave Headla commented on assessment policy. Would like
to see deferred assessments for the raw land area. The City could defer
assessments. They would have to be levied but deferred. But we suggest that
large property owners that are not ready for development, that they be assessed
a minimum of 1 unit at this time with any additional units assessed when the
property is developed through developer's agreements and when the exact number
of units can be calculated based on their development. However we feel very
strongly that developers in the area should not have deferred assessments at
this time. Mr. Terry Forbord of Lundgren Bros. questioned the benefit. My only
answer to that question is the City could not allow development to take place
until the collector street system is in place to accommodate the additional
traffic that might be generated by the development. He also questioned the unit
method of calculation. We feel very strongly and we still recommend that we
maintain the 1.8 units of raw land area. We did deduct out of this land area
for wetland. We also deducted for any additional street widths. The 1.8 units
per acre would leave each lot created at 24,200 square feet. Hr. Tom ~llenburg.
The street is 25 feet in front of his house. Will it increase to 44 feet?
~gain, the proposed width is 32 feet wide. 16 feet on center. The walkway is
proposed at 6 feet with a 5 foot boulevard as maximum boulevard where allowable
where it can be constructed. Again thls boulevard wlll vary to accommodate
specific property needs such as trees, driveways and slopes. Total right-of-way
ls 66 feet. The roadway wlth a 5 foot boulevard, a 6 foot walkway, would
encompass 43 feet of the 66 feet leaving 23 feet of right-of-way split between
both sldes or 11.5 feet of right-of-way on each slde of the road. On the road
side where the trail is not being constructed, more green area would be
maintained on that side than on the slde that the walkway will be on. Mr. Rlch
Commer suggested an overlay. Placement of an overlay does not solve the
lnherent problems of thls roadway. That is drainage, subgrade, slght dlstance
and alignments. In fact, a 3 inch bituminous overlay would create a multitude
of problems on thls roadway where dralnage ls concerned. Court MacFarlane
questioned taking trees. We've done our best to save trees wherever possible.
Some trees have to go. We can't avoid that. As part of the project design we
incorporated the 170 replacement trees. He also commented on the sheet drainage
of the roadway. Sheet dralnage does not, let me step back a moment. Sheet
drainage is when it hits the road and goes directly off the side of the road.
Sheet dralnage does not provlde for adequate eroslon control. Does not provlde
for adequate erosion control of the natural slopes along the roadway. We have
steep slopes along there. Those slopes are eroding today. 8y use of the curb
and gutter erosion can be stopped and controlled in those areas of slopes and
where the driveways are adjacent to the lake. These areas are now erodlng and
would be prepared as part of the project. We also have several culverts that
are discharging lnto the lake. They are also erodlng. Those eroslon problems
at the culverts are causing the slopes to erode and weakening the vegetation of
the slope. Mr. Arnle Head questioned the need for another north/south
collector. Minnewashta Parkway is a north/south collector and will carry more
trafflc whether lmproved or not. Trafflc will lncrease or accelerate the unsafe
conditions. We felt very responsible when we were preparing this report that
lt's our responsibility to point out safety concerns for all property owners.
Mr. Kevin Cuddihy who's question was additional cost will be incurred in the
future. That's very true. We did a present value of the future worth of the
13
City Co~ncil He.~ting -o Jul? 22, 1991
project. Today's doJlars of $2,017,738.00. Assuming an inflation rate of
over the ))ex(. 5 year:s as ,~n annual 'F~f.e might be a little bit high but it's an
average. Future worth of the project is $2,575,200.00. Hr. Lowell Carlson, the
status of mai)~t~.~in the walkway. This particular walkway is considered a walkway
the City does maintain. It provides pedestrian transportation, not just for one
street but a general area of the Minnewashta Parkway ~lrea. His questio, also
was, is the City reducing the minimum lot size? ~hat Hr. Carlson is referring
to is ~nseuered areas. When we commented about the J..8 units per acre. The
minimum lot size for this area is 15,000 square feet. The 1.8 units for raw
land allows for single family lots of 24,200 square feet. We think is a very
conservative estlmate for single famlly homes. Thls lsa resldent and the
question was, w111 utility lines be buried. NSP will consider bury a power line
but may charge t~me Clty for t hls work. Durlng flnal deslgn we submlt these
plans to NSP for thelr review and comment. If they find that it would be less
sxpensiue to bury the lines at thls tlme versus relocate the poles, they would
ce,sider burying ~l~e powe~' lines. However you have to remember that when you
put 1~ an undergrour, d power where the overhead now exlsts, connections from the
homes to the underground has to be born by the property owner and that cost for
these particular homes up 'there could be in the range of $800.00 to $1,000.00.
That's generally how NSP operates on their underground power. It's the
responsibility of the homeowner to bury their power and convert thelr system to
their house to underground power. And ui~h that your honor, I think that
addresses most of the concerns ~hat I mlght have and I thlnk wlth the
questions that we focused on in the beginning, should give us a pretty good
basis for the discussions tonight.
Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Thank you Bill. I might add I think that was well
done addressing all the respective questions that were brought forward at the
prev£ous meeting. As I mentioned, even though the public hearing was closed,
that I would allow anyone who wlshes to speak tonlght to address any speclflc
questions. They may so do at this particular time. The only thing I ask is
that it not be repetitious of what it was when we discussed it previously. That
there's some~him~g new, I'd like this to be brought up as well. At this
partJ, cular time Z would be more than happy to have you come up. Please state
your name and your address and we'll go from the're.
James Boylan: James Boylan, 6760 Minnewashta Parkway. Before I even begin I
would 11ks to thank Councilwoman Ursula Oimler for coming out to the house. She
ls the flrst o~e that I've seen slnce this thing has begun. I guess I don't
really know what to say to you other than I don't want to belabor the fact about
the trees but there are some lssues here that I just don't quite understand
myself. Nobody has come to me and talked to me about it except Ursula herself.
While she was out there Sunday, I had found out from my 15 year old daughter
that somebody had been out to examine our trees. The report that 8111 has
dlffers from what my 15 year old daughter told Ursula and I herself about what
tl,e guy said ,~bout the trees. So you know, I guess if this becomes an issue
where we have to go to court over the value of those trees, then I guess I have
to ~pend the money but I'm a property owner. I'm a homeowner. I'm a resident
of Chanhassen. It's not my job to get lnvolved with valuing my property and
declding whethe'r' or i~ot you're doing damage. ~ simple city plot map w111 show
that my famJ. Jy and I own both sldes of the road on that plece of property and
either' the developmenr, s originally proposed of the new one does a certaln amount
o'r damage to our property that I guess I'm having a hard time seelng where it's
14
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
really a property evaluement and enhancement. I guess I have to say that 8111
has done some of his homework in the respect of evaluating the condition of the
roadway and that's absolutely true. I guess last time that ue were sitting here
talking about this and Rich Comer was up here, I have to say that from my part
he did a better job of explaining what he thought needed to be done wlth that
roadway than I dld. I kind of had a personal ax to grind with my property and
I'd 11ke to put that aslde tonight and just talk about the road ltself and what
he was trying to say and he's not an engineer. I have some traffic engineering
but lt's more from trafflc control and I'd klnd of 11ke to address these polnts
from my point of vleu too. I think we talked about safety last time and Hike
and Tom, I am not anti-safety but I also have to look at the fact that as a 20
year resldent on that road, there hasn't been a great deal of problems that have
been documented. I mean we thought there was a death on the road and to the
best of my ability to find out what that was, it was like 25 years ago. An
alcohol related incldent wlth a slngle vehicle where a man rolled hls car off
the road and killed himself. That was a bad deal. It's unfortunate but those
thlngs happen. There was another incldent where a young man hit a tree down by
Leech's Resort in that area. He was being chased by the Sheriff at 11:00 at
nlght. Another alcohol related lncident and he was violating speed laws and
lost control of his car. The other two incidents that I personally know of on
that road occurred where Leslee Curve comes down lnto Mlnnewashta Parkway. One
was during the wintertime when there was a high piled snowbank and the car
couldn't see far enough and went out lnto the intersection to look and was, two
high school aged boys and one T-boned the other because he pulled out too far
and the other one was golng too fast and couldn't stop under the conditions. No
injuries. Just damages to cars. The other one that I know about was a 13 year
old boy rldlng hls blcycle down that h111 on Leslee Curve, ran the stop slgn and
was hit by a car. Very unfortunate and he was very lucky. He bent the front
wheel on hls blcycle and went home with a couple of strawberries and a good
lesson and it was very fortunate that there wasn't more damage. There have been
some serious accidents on both intersections on the end and that's
understandable. TH 7 and TH 5, high traffic areas. High rates of speed. Poor
visibility. The State already is addressing this wlth the possibility of stop
signs so I'd like to separate that from the road because the stop signs at those
intersections will do a lot to control those types of incidents so we're not
talking about the road itself. But let's focus on the road a bit and talk about
the condition of the actual road. 20 years ago thls clty elected to put in
sewer and water on that street. At that point in time I'm a little confused as
to who's jurisdiction this really was because it was Carver County 15 and was
kind of owned by the County and kind of in the City of Chanhassen and I'm not
sure who was responsible for that project particularly. Whether it was joint or
the City and the County together. Whether the State was involved or whatever
but whoever inspected that really dldn't do his work. I mean what Rich gave to
me the other day is a copy of Braun's Engineering test report on this road. It
basically shows about a dozen test borlngs that were done along the side of the
road. I guess I have to say Bill, you're absolutely right. I'm surprised, you
know you said something about if we don't do anythlng today the road wlll have
to be fixed within 5 or 10 years. It isn't going to last that long in most
cases and part of the problem ls that the bituminous overlay varies from 4
inches to 11 and in most cases it's either on what they call silty sand or right
on the clay base itself. Sandy lean clay whlch means that when they went
through in early 70's and did this, and you can't tell me that technology didn't
exist at that point in tlme to understand how to put ina road bed, they tore up
15
City Coullcil Heeting - July 22, 1991
· the old road. Put in the sewer and water and all the rest of the stuff. Put
the clay back doun. Never put i, any drainage. Never put any aggregate on.
Just laid the bituminous back o, it and screwed us in the deal. They didn't
give us our money's uorth for that road at that point in time. Now that puts
the road in the present condition that it's in but I have to agree uith my
friend Rich Comer in his assessment of this. Zn most cases that road bed's been
there for 100 years and there are yes, a leu places where there's some real
problems and it's easy to see from these test boring results why. Z mean here's
one doun by Leech's old resort that's 11 inches of bituminous on 2 feet of sandy
silt and then the sandy lean clay goes down to about 5 feet and then there's
another 5 feet of peat. I mean it's a suamp. Nou uhy didn't somebody look at
that back in 1970 and say this is potentially a bad deal. Let's put a culvert
in here and put in some proper drainage. How come the City could approve back
in ~971 a situation where they lay 9 inches of bituminous on top of sandy lean
clay or ? inches of bituminous on top of silty sand or even 4 inches of
bituminous as the road bed. Tha['s 4 inches. I mean is that what ue pa£d for?
Zs this kind of stuff? I'd like to give you the guys the benefit of the doubt
of knowing uhat's best for us from an engineering standpoint and the rest of the
stuff but the last thing Z'd like to bring up to you is something that Bill
ment£oned in one of the earlier meetings. Not in front of the Councll but uhen
we had the public meetings about the Stratford Ridge development. Somehou this
City allowed Stratford Ridge to put in a settling pond in front of their housing
development that's about 6 feet wide and about 20 feet long that's just a mud
hole uith a drain that goes straight into Lake Hinneuashta. Nou how in the hell
you ever got that by the DNR or anybody else I'll never know but even Bill said
that that needs to be redone. That's 3 years old guys. 3 years old. Get w~th
it. Thank you.
Hayor Chmiel: Thank you. Unfortunately some of those things have happened. I
agree with you, they should not have happened. We watch uhat's happening now.
Three years ago none of these people sitting here uere on the Council.
Unfortunately but we are watching roads that presently we're having moisture
coming up through. Those are being addressed and taken care of because we
picked out tuo different areas that that's happening nou. It's uithin that
guaranteed time and we uill have it done and taken care of. I just thought I'd
mentio~ that.
Terry Forbord: Your honor, members of the City Council, my name is Terry
Forbord, Lundgren Bros, 935 East Wayzata Blvd., Wayzata, HN and I uould just
like to enter into the record or clarify for the record. I don't have a copy of
the Hinutes but Hr. Engelhardt uas speaking from the Hinutes about some
statements that I made and I uould like to clarify that one item that he did not
mention and Z have not had clarLfLed to me uas the discussions betueen the City
of Chanhassen and the City of gictoria. We uould like very much to be a part
of that and if that is not in the Hinutes of Z believe the 5uly 8th meeting, Z
would like to have the Hinutes amended because I did make statements relative to
that. That's the first item. The second item is that I know Hr. Engelhardt
personally. I have worked uith him. He's extremely competent as an engineer
a,d so Z do not challenge any of his credLbLlity with that. He's a very
competent person. I've worked uith him uell before. I would like to just at
this present time share uith you two exhibits. If Z may approach the audio
visual equipment. ~s I mentioned to the Council before, Lundgren Bros. has
secured the opportunity to develop approxLmately 50 acres, a portion of that
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
being in the city of Victoria and a portion of that being in the city of
Chanhassen. I have asked our consulting engineering firm from Sathre-Berquist,
Mr. Rick Sathre to conceptualize what I would describe to you as an aggressive
site plan. In other words by that to try and get as many lots on that
particular piece of land as possible to see how the proposed assessment formula
would effect this particular piece of property. This is a copy of an overhead
of a memorandum from Mr. Sathre, Consulting Engineer to Lundgren Bros., to me
and the subject would be the Boley property. The piece that is in the city of
Chanhassen. Okay now I have a copy of a sketch that I'll put on here as soon as
we walk through this. They are connected as far as the material they represent.
It states that the attached sketches do reflect new information. The OH~ which
is the ordinary high water mark in this case would be Lake St. Joe is 945.2 feet
as located in the field by a survey. The wetland edge on the plan which I will
show you is also field located. The riparian lots on the concept plan which are
lake lots must be 40,000 square feet with 150 foot width at the building and at
the lake OHm. That's in the City ordinance in the shoreland district of the
City of Chanhassen. The non-riparian lots which are non lake lots must be
20,000 square foot with 100 foot width at the building. Now this is under
standard subdivision regulations in the city. This is the best of my
information and maybe I have some inaccurate data and I hope I do and I hope the
City can show me if I am wrong. Okay, Lots 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9 and 10 are
riparian. The rest aren't. The wetland setback for buildings is 75 feet by
city code and the lakeshore setback from the OH~ is 150 feet. Now I will put on
here a copy of this plan. I have asked the consulting engineer, I said try to
get as many lots on there as possible so we can see if the assessment formula
works and that's the only reason I asked him to do it. Okay, what we have here
is Lake St. Joe. The ordinary high water mark as field located here. The edge
of the wetland as field located here. This is Boley property. The area that is
net of the road and the wetland which I believe is how the proposed assessment
formula policy is formulated, is 23.5 acres. There is a total of 35 lots. 8 of
the lots are riparian which are 40,000 square feet and I already detailed for
you. 27 lots are non-riparian and they're 20,000 square feet so what we have
here is 1.4893 duelling units per acre as the City Code allows. Now you can see
it's a fairly aggressive site plan. You may end up pulling some of those lots
out of there if you really wanted to have a nice site plan. This is in concept
only. The only reason that I'm pointing these things out to you is we're
talking about a small amount of difference from a 1.8 assessment to a 1.4 and
I'm not trying to quibble about small amounts but what I think makes more sense
from a city standpoint is what is equitable. And whether it be Lundgren Bros.
or anybody here in the audience who happens to own a piece of property, I
personally don't feel that it's appropriate to assess somebody for something
that the City ordinance prohibits you in doing. And so what I would recommend
as far as an assessment policy, that it could be at 1.8 if that is what is
deemed to be prudent. However, there should be a rider on that that if city
ordinance prohibits for whatever reason a property owner meeting that density,
that the assessment formula will revert to whatever the city ordinance allows
them to do. The question relative to benefit of this particular project or any
assessment project or city project really comes down to in my opinion who's
money's at stake. ~hen one puts their money on the line, whether it be a
homeowner or whether it be a developer, what it really comes down to is how much
benefit was there when one goes to try to sell the property and would somebody
be willing to pay them more money if a particular road was any different than
other. In my 25 years of real estate experience, I certainly have noticed that
17
City Council Meeting -, July 22, 1991
there is benefit to certain road projects. If you live on a gravel road and you
pave that road in fronl of the particular property, the majority of people would
probably be willing to pay more for that particular piece of property. Whether
a road has a pothole in .Lt or whether it does not, T have yet to find a customer
come to me and be willing to pay more money for a particular lot or a particular
home if a road does not. And so I think it becomes a subjective thing. I'd be
happy to answer any questions relative to the information that I've given you
this evening or any of the exhibits that I've put before you. Thank you.
Councilman Workman: Terry?
Terry Forbord: Yes sir.
Councilman Workman: I would disagree wlth your last point. I am in the housing
market and it does make a difference to me. Somebody told me that it wouldn't
make a difference and we spent a lot of money on a blg report when a certaln
church was built in here and that wouldn't make a difference and it makes a blg
difference to my wife and I.
Terry Forbord: That's entlrely possible.
Councilman Workman: Okay. I don't know the accuracy of thls but Lot 34 we
wouldn't even approve up there. So I don't know the accuracy of this and we
wouldn't approve a ple shaped lot 11ke that. Just to name one polnt so there's
all sorts of ways to shave a point through here. Would we approve a?
Terry Forbord: We have in the past. We have many of them in our subdivisions
now. This is for concept purposes only. I'm not saying this is the way.
Councilman Workman: What I'm just saying, you're talking about our city code
and what we do and we would not do that and it's just a minor thing and I wanted
to.
Mayor Chmiel: Paul would you just 11ke to address that.
Paul Krauss: Well a couple of points. We haven't been able to revlew, this is
the flrst we've seen thls so we haven't been able to review thls. Whether or
not this number is right, you know it's in the same ballpark that 8ill was uslng
but I would polnt out that number, if it's correct. If Terry's number ls
correct specific to this site, the deciding factor here is the shoreland
ordinance and Lake St. Joe lsa natural development lake and has the stlffest
development restrictions of any lake in the city. All that vacant land or not
fully developed land if we use that terminology, north of Lake St. Joe. North
of the street, is~'t subject to that same criteria. So even if this is accurate
and I can't verify it or not until we look at it closer, this is only
appropriate for this particular site and doesn't apply elsewhere.
Mayor Chmiel: Good point. Thank you.
Terry Forbord: Mr. Mayor, that's why I've suggested that you could keep the
same formula. Z'm not suggesting that that ls unfalr. However, there may be
speclflc sites that are within what you're calling the assessment district that
would be impossible to meet that test and so all one would need to do ls part of
18
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
the assessment formula is say, if there is a specific site, that that would be
adjusted to the number of building, home sites that would be allowable under
city ordinance.' Thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Bill, would you like to?
Bill Engelhardt: Can I just comment briefly? The purpose of proposing a method
of assessment, the actual assessment policy will not be set down until the
assessment hearing which is after the project is completed and all the numbers
are arrived at. The general policy is that when we get to that point and we
have a developer in the area or property owner, we'll sit down with them. We
discuss their property with them and find out how many units can that property
accommodate and that's what goes into the assessment roll. So those are details
that are taken care of at the time of the assessment hearing.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Jim 3asin: My name is Jim 3asin. My address is 730i Minnewashta Parkway. I'd
like to speak in favor of the parkway and the walkway. I think you've all done
an excellent job of listening to the people. You've taken the assessments from
$2,300.00 to $1,200.00 to $750.00. You've given away two years of funding on
the State roads. You've done an awful lot of thlngs rlght. I haven't been at
all the meetings but I heard Bill talk tonight and I think Bill has done just an
super job of investigating the whole thlng from beginning to end so I'd 11ke to
see the Council approve it because I think you've done everything you can do.
You're glvlng as much as you can back to the people here. So I'm all in favor
of it. Thank you.
Resident: Amen.
Harry Orahos: Honorable Mayor and Council, I'd like to, first of ali my name is
Harry Orahos. I live at 3911 Linden Circle and I want to express my thanks to
Councilwoman Ursula Dlmler for vlstlng our plcnic. Our Mlnnewashta Creek
Association happened to have a picnic on the 13th and she came and listened to
us and I'm sure she heard both sides of the story from quite a few people. I
objected and again I'm not against progress but I objected to the way this was
belng funded for the slmple reason I 1lye on Llnden Circle and if you're going
to do something to Linden Circle, assess me. That's fine. But for being
assessed for Minnewashta Parkway, that klnd of turned me off because there's
more people using it than the 307 families that are living there now. But the
fact that Ursula Dlmler was there and as I understand the assessment went down
from $1,250.00 to $758.00, maybe we should have another picnic and you can drop
it some more. But I want to thank you very much. Again, this was my main
objective to the way it was being funded and the fact I know there's going to be
more people uslng Mlnnewashta Parkway than just the 307 familles or 532
eventually that are going to be there. And when you hear comments that gee
that's good you're going to get repaired or a walkway, I'm going to use it too
but I don't have to pay. That kind of smarts a 11ttle bit so that's all I want
to say. Thank you.
Leidia Seim: My name is Leidia Seim. I live at 3616 Red Cedar Point. I
guess I'm not in a congratulatory mood tonight. It seems to me that the fact
that from $3,500.00 assessment we are down $750.00 gives me some doubt as to the
19
city COL[IlCli. J. M~;otLng -.July 22, 1991.
efficiency mild to the way things aye done in government. If we did not squawk,
[f ue were not here all asking why ~tnd when, we probably would have been stuck
with the $3,500.00 assessment so I question government. Big government and how
.it goes. hfte]' that I have a question for the engineer'. Last time we mentioned
that we had to have 30 mile speed limit because it was a State regulation. Now
in going around Kenwood and Lake of the Isles and that area, I have seen 25
speed iimit. 25 miles. Why is that?
Mayor Chmiel: Basically .tn some of those areas it warrants that type of speed.
MnDot, State of Minnesota, people will allow or not allow that speed to happen.
It has to have some real given problems of concern and sight lines and the road
itself. So oftentimes that happens. I have been in discussion with Mr. Bill
Cr~.~wford frol, HliOot who is the Chief Engineer for the entire State and he and
I are going to be having some discussions regarding that 25 mpa speed within the
city. I don't know whether' we can have MnOot accept that but I feel too with
the entirety of the city I think we have roads that are just driven too fast.
If they're marked 30, they're 35 and 40. Tho.~e situations are happening but
whether they would allow it or not, that's another question but that's something
I'm going to have discussions on.
Jim Borchard: Jim Borchard, 7331 Minneuashta Parkway. I think we all agree the
road has to be repaired some way soon. It's tearing our vehicles apart. It is
becoming dangerous because it's hard to maintain control of a vehicle when you
hit. a bump that shakes your teeth. Another situation that exists on my property
Js the drainage. We ;'lave the drainage out of Maple Ridge coming off of the
Parkway and we ~re washing hundreds of tons o'F silt and nutrients into the lake
each year-. The holding pond at Maple Ridge was filled by many developers.
About ,1 times the City fin6:lly did repair that and here we are getting good
water but something [las to be done. Bill Engelhardt has been out. The City
Engineer's been out and everybody has agreed upon this. I do have one concern.
It was mentioned that the road may have to be closed for a short time in
portions and my concern is not having to walk to one to the other but what about
fire and ambulance protection?
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Jim. Yeah, those are concerns also by the Council.
When we worked Frontier Road, we took that into consideration and in most
insta~ces they did have accessibility through that particular site. I think the
~ntent ls when they say it may be closed for a short period of time and I'm
9olng to look for some divine guldance here. Can SOnleone clarify that polnt?
In my oplnlon a short tlme is maybe an hour or two or something of that nature.
Bill Engelhardt: Well I don't know Mayor. You're putting a lot of pressure on
me. I'll tell you uhat we dld on Frontlet Tra11. We had basically the same
ci'rcumstance. Not quite as long but basically the same circumstance. We had
approximately 50 residents in that particular roadway. We specified in the
specifications and had it bid wlth the big documents so that all the contractors
are aware that they're to keep on site and on call 24 hour basls heavy equipment
to pull any vehicles out. In additlon uith that vehlcle being on site, if
there's a flre, no matter how muddy it ls, we're going to get the flre truck
into you. Now we may take a little time getting it out but we're going to get
it in there. That's how we accommodate lt. The other thlng we dld on Frontlet
Tr,.~il is that we worked half the roadway and in this particular case I really
haven't declded whlch half or how I'm golng to start lt. That comes with the
20
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
final design but we work half of the roadway and actually paved the upper half
before ue even open cut the second half, So we had a blacktop bituminou~
surface almost through the entlre roadway through the entire construction except
for a very limited time of maybe 2 days to 3 days when we were tearing down the
road and lylng down the rock and curb. So there's no questlon that there's
going to be inconvenience. We try to accommodate you as much as we can. We
also provlde in the inspectors with their vehicles to help carry groceries and
that may sound like a small point but very important to a lot of people that
have to walk any distance. So to make it real short, those polnts are all
considered ina project of this nature. We've done it before and we know how to
do lt. We can do it agaln.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Tim Fisher: My name is Tim Fisher. I live at 709g Red Cedar Cove. I've lived
there for 3 years. For the 10 years previous to that I lived barely a quarter
of a mlle down the road at 7371Mlnnewashta so I've 11red on the parkway for
about 13 years. For almost every day of those 13 years I've run up and down
that street at least once. Sometimes more and I've biked it quite a bit too.
I'd like to say on the issue of safety, first of all I'd like to say for me it's
a sad day to see it happen. I think lt's a fore gone conclusion you're going to
do it. But on the issue of safety, I've listened to the experts opinlons but in
the 13 years I've certainly seen an lncrease in trafflc and as I sald, lt's a
daily routine with me. I don't see how it's possible that by increasing the
condition of the road and the uldth of the road that we're not golng to see
increased traffic between TH 7 and TH 5. And on the lssue of safety there's two
points. Basically as far as I'm concerned and I would thlnk anybody who's on
the roadway and I know you're going to stick in a sidewalk, I certainly won't
use it when I run. Never have when I've been around but there's the lssue of
speed and there's the issue of how many cars. Now it may be that local people
drive a little fast at times but they also are aware of the hablts of the people
and their neighbors that are on the parkway. Those people that come zipping
from TH 5 to TH 7 aren't and won't continue to do what they do and if you want
to reduce speed there's two ways you can do it. You can drop the speed. I know
when I drlve to work I go through around Lake Minnetonka and through a few local
streets and there are 3 or 4 of them are in the 20 mph range and there's one in
25 mph range. If you want to do something about speed for us, stick in speed
bumps. There is something you can do about speed. The other thing I want to
say ls that I spend, I am grateful to see that the amount you're golng to assess
us has gone down quite a bit. I'm a little guy. I spend over $3,000.00 a year
on real estate taxes uhlch I conslder to be a pretty generous allowance to the
County and the City for them to do their projects. I certainly think for
myself, glven what services I use, the amortization of road repair and upkeep
ought to be included in what I spend. Now admittedly for the 10 years before
the past 3 and my prevlous property I was about a third of that but nevertheless
I consider that amortization of road repair and upkeep ought to be lncluded in
that. And I know that glven where I've moved ls someplace real new that I'm one
of those who's causing the need for greater use but I think it does make a point
that those who move in and add to the amount of trafflc that's belng caused are
probably those who really are the ones who should be bearing the cost since
those that were there flrst really dldn't cause that to happen. Therefore the'
services that are being demanded now are those that are being demanded by people
comlng in. One last point I'd 11ke to make. I have a 11 year old son who lives
21
City Courier.1. Meefing - .'Iu].y 22, 199£
with me and I thought about the safety issue a lot becaur~e I didn't want to say
anything against this knowing lhCtt yOU know hr;ck is someday somebody got run
over there, I'd fee]. terrible if I' had said something against it. But I can
tell you straight out that I don't care if you build a new road, 36 feet or 42
feet, if you have a sidewalk on the s~de of it, I wouldn't feel any less or more
.salt;. I'd be a fool. to think that my son riding up and down there, runni~g up
and down there, walking up and down there, hitting a ball out in the street.
bJl~atevcr he's doing, would be one iota safer. We're fooling ourselves and I'd
[)e fool, lng m~self. Thank you.
Fd O~thout: My wife wanted to ,join me tonight. She was unable to so we wrote a
lettr;r. Before reading th¢:,t letter though I'd like to say, is lhe $758.00.
Mayor Chmiel: Could you please state your name and your address?
Ed Oat hout~ Yes, I'm sorry. My name is Oathout, 3940 Hawthorne Circle.
Earller tonight you mentioned, somebody mentioned that the $758.00 per unlt
number was what tile residents would be assessed for this project. Is that
number a hard number or ls that number one that's subject lo go south or north?
Mayor Chmiel: To the best of my knowledge, we've looked at that and that's
qulte realistic.
Ed Oathout: Reallstlc? Because there are some things that I wanted to go
through in my letter that Z just didn't know, Z know what estimates are and
Z know that usually engineers are pretty close but Z know that there's a lot of
issues on tl~is particular project that haven't been even ~ddressed, let alone
settled or that are impossible to deal wlth rlght now and Z just wanted to know
what the possible bottom 11ne was.
Mayor Chmiel: I think where we did start with was roughly $2,500.00. It was
brought down to $1,250.00. We sat down a week ago last Monday. I asked Bill to
.l. ook ~t that and see if we could afford to go with the additional State Aid. We
(lid on].y because of the fact that we've done this in other locations. I feel
what's just for one is just the other and that's why it's down to that
p,~rticLtlar figure r.tght now.
Fd Oathout; Thank you Mayor. The letter goes, we, Judy and I are in opposition
to the proposed revision to Hinnewashta Parkway. Although we believe that the
design of the parkway ls unsafe as it exlsts, we respectfully suggest that the
danger is to pedestrians, not to automobiles traveling the legal, speed. Danger
exlsts because both motor vehlcles~ and pedestrians are uslng the same path.
I.ogic suggests that to create a safe situation we must separate wheel traffic
From foot trafflc. We propose the fei. lowing. Repalr the cracks and potholes.
Restructure tile sm,.~11 area of unsuitable soils and build a sidewalk. All this
can be done on the existlng right--or-.way wlthout widenlng the roadbed, polluting
L,'~ke Minnewashta, cutt£ng dow~ trees or expendJ, ng over $2 million very precious
tax dollars. Safety issues. Personal safety. We've nelther seen nor been
informed of any sludy by any traffic safety engirleer recommending any changes to
Hinl~ewashta Parkway at a11. Unfortunately, we residents of Chanhassen have a
questionable I~istory of safe road design. A recent example our downtown main
street. Councilman Wlng durlng the publlc hearing sald that he was unaware of
any ~erious ii,juries on Itinnewashta Parkway during his long term residence ill
22
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
the area. During the public meeting prior to the public hearing the engineer
Bill Engelhardt stated that the actual traffic counts were far below those
predicted and that only one traffic ticket for speeding had been issued in the
recent past. A resident stated that he had seen a child playing in a puddle.
We suggest that thls ls criticism of the child's parents, not a residential
street. There are over 12 roads connecting TH 5 and TH 7 between Haconia
and 494 shown on reglonal maps. We residents, because of TH 5 trafflc know of
several others. People wishing to avoid the TH 5 bottleneck traveling from west
to east will quickly flnd out that the new Minnewashta speedway ls the shortest
and most scenic route between the two major highways. Minnewashta Parkway is a
residential collector street, not a shortcut between highways. We residents,
our children, our grandchildren travel on and across Minnewashta Parkway between
the neighborhoods and between hom and the lake. There's no park to use. There's
no sidewalk area to use for walking for exercise. If residents safety is a
primary concern of the Council, we propose the rather unusual optlon of ending
thru traffic by deadending the parkway from each end somewhere near the center.
Providing cul-de-sacs and using the resulting spaces as a land brldge safe zone
between the lake and the neighborhoods. Modern technology can certainly supply
several ways to allow emergency flre and rescue trafflc through the blocked
cul-de-sac area. Environmental safety. We are unaware of any environmental
lmpact study addressing the proposed Lake Minnewashta Parkway changes. The fact
is that Lake Minnewashta was judged to have the finest water quality in the area
according to a very recent article ina Chanhaseen paper. Changlng the
filtering action of the absorbent areas between the parkway and the Lake to
runoff through a sewer from a wetland to Lake St. Joe was proposed by the
engineer at the last public hearing. That engineer also stated that Lake St.
Joe was the primary concern of the DNR. We don't feel that way. The issue of
water quallty on Lake Minnewashta is absolute. The method of insuring safe
water, lt's environmental and monetary costs have not been presented to either
the DNR or the City Council. Minor erosion issues mentioned during the public
hearlng are easily solved wlthout bulldlng an entire new $2 plus million dollar
road sewer system requiring the planning of several hundred whips to replace the
mature trees now holdlng the soll in place and helping to establish the hlgh
property valuation for the benefitting properties. Cost issues. Without
knowlng the requirements of the State regulatory agencies concerning water
safety and the environmental impact of changlng a residential collector street
into a connector between two major highways, this Councll rlsks the
embarrassment of authorizing issuance of a planning check. The ultimate cost
will be pald by every single resldent of the Clty of Chanhassen. I heard durlng
the public hearing that the over $2 mlllion dollars in cost was a good deal and
that unless quickly spent, the State may force us to spend more money in the
future. We disagree. Minnewashta Parkway is a residential collector street.
Not a State Road. Not a County Road and hopefully not a speedway between major
highways. If the State needs to change this residential collector street into a
hlghway, they must compensate the effected property owners and bill it at State
expense. We do not believe that the majorlty of residents of the affected area
want the proposed change. We realize the State funds exlst to do part of a. job.
These funds would serve Chanhassen better is expended on TH 5 widening, TH 101
straightening or even creatlng needed shoulders on exlsting collector streets.
If these projects are not worthy of State funding, we would vote to return or
delay spending the money. State funding ls not free. These taxes were
forcefully removed from all motorists pockets as they purchased gasoline. We,
the affected residents w111 be triple dlpped taxed. We w111 pay for the
City Col~nc.i.]. Meet[no -- Ju].y 22, 1~91
remaining portion of as an ~ssessment on top of increased property and sales
taxes. And al. so jO~ll tl]~¢ r~st of Cl~anhassen [o pay the principle and i~iterest
on the general obligation bonds proposed for this unneeded and wanted good deal.
I have a copy of you Hayer and anybody else.
Mayor chmiel: Thank you.
Ed Seim: Mt'. Mayor, my wife has already spoken but I think there's one
unde¢ly1~lg point which has not been brought out. Has been woven through
everyone's thoughts but they have been anxious to point out the cost features.
I think it was one of those concerns which was brought out last week but I don't
think it was adequately addressed by Mr. Engelhardt. Now I need to go back 30
years or so and point out that I was erie of the first members of the Park
Commission of this town when we first came in. When Minnewashta first became a
part. of Chanhasse~! ,'tnd we labored many long hours to try to save our lake system
and to try to develop a system of parks and trails connecting those lakes. Bick
t.ym,'.~n was o~ that and several others. One of the Reverends. And you have
p~ctures around the room and in the hallway pointing out what a valuable
resource we really have. And you have a maple leaf of the Chanhassen tree
behind you and yet what I hear very often in the deliberations is let's become
more Edinish. Let's become a big suburb. Now I live in California and we say
let"s become Orange Cou~lty. If you know Orange County. And there seems to be a
p[~{n to develop rapidly, fast ,'~nd to change tile whole nature of tile community.
Most of the old residents moved out here. We dldn't have sewer. We didn't have
streets. We came because we liked tile sylvan nature. And we still like it and
we come back as often as we can because of that. And we've hung onto our
property even though the taxes have tripled and escalated and we'll continue to
come back as long as it has that sylvan nature and so it glues us that respite
From the hubble and bubble of the city ].1re. Otherwise we could go down and
live downtown. Anytlme. Or we could 1lye in downtown LA or downtown San
Francisco. This ls real resource. It was interesting this week driving around
the ].ake to see that in order to save the Lake of the Isles and Lake Calhoun the
city has narrowed tile streets and made them one way and put in little parking
dive. rsions and thlngs like that to cut down trafflc and to cut down the speed.
We ought to be protecting this resource rather than straightening it out and
making ita blg collector. Thlnk about the park system. Thlnk about what you
hc, d. I think perhaps this speech is 20 years too late. ~ understand that parks
is ~lso recreation but I was reflecting t hls evenlng. I remember the flrst year
we saved $.5,000.00 from onr budget to buy land. At the end of tile year tile City
Counc11 took away our $5,000.00 because the flre department had gone in the red.
5o we had to start over the next year. It was interesting to find that now you
had $19,000.00 to spend from someplace oil recreation equipment. That would have
been a big plus Ln our day to buy a piece of parkland. Thank you.
Dave Headla: My name is Dave Headla. I live at 6870 Minnewashta Parkway. l
must admit I've changed my mind. I used to be quite an outspoken critic of Clty
Hall as Don and some of the staff well remember. In fact at one tlme I got so
outspoken that the deputy visited me. Hauled me in here and lo and behold I was
itl the kangaroo court and who's '[he judge. One of the Councll people. You know
they had the gall to charge hie all extra $50.00 because I lived in Western
Chanha~sen. Couldn't believe lt. Okay, if I had my druthers I would 11ke to
see u:~ go back to ear].y 60's and go back to Minnew~shta Parkway into Yellowstone
Trail but that's ludicrous. That isn't going to happen. Things have got to
24
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
change. I think you've looked at many alternatives. The proposal you're
working on I think is tile way to go but I've got some questions. Bill, I'm very
concerned about the traffic. Are we going to put stop signs somewhere along the
parkway? Now if we can have one or two sets of stop signs, that's going to
knock out that semi traffic.
Mayor Chmiel: Dave we're going to have to.
Dave Headla: You are? Okay, what about parking? Are you going to allow
parking ol) the parkway?
Mayor Chmiel: I think not. Only on specific situations where people are having
a party and they can't accommodate enough cars. On a one time basis.
Dave Headla: That's fine. If we were going to allow parking, then we're
probably ina worse...because kids can dart in and out. Then the last thing is,
what about street 11ghts? I really would 11ke to see street lights and I would
guess now would be an opportune time to put it in. Has any thought gone into
that?
8111Engelhardt: We have not looked at street 11ghts. You could look at them.
We'd have NSP probably that supplies the street lights for the city look at
Thai would be a pollcy decislon as to whether or not you wanted to do that.
They're not part of this proposal.
Dave Headla: I guess if it's easier to put them in now rather than later, I'd
11kc to see you do it. Then finally if we could project ourselves into 1995 or
the year 2000 and look back at thls meetlng tonlght, I can't belleve anybody
wouldn't say, what in the world are we talking about? The declsion is easy.
We've got to go through with what you've proposed. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Yes sir.
Peter Moe: My name is Peter Moe. I live at 7141 Minnewashta Parkway. Bill
mentioned six points this evening. I think it really still comes down to two.
Safety and cost. I am posltlve that the children are going to be safer walking
on the sidewalk when they're going to the bus stop, going to a future park or
whatever than they are on the slde of the road. It doesn't make sense to b~lld
a sldewalk and not take care of the drainage problems we have and so I think for
that reason we should go ahead and also for the cost issue. £ven though lt's
going down now this spring and summer, waiting another couple of years, the
costs are golng to go up very much more. I thlnk we've got a good financing
package here and we should go ahead with the project.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Yes sir.
Jim Hofer: Jim Hofer, ?098 Red Cedar Cove. I heard Bill answer a whole bunch
of concerns and questions of the citizens tonight and I've never worked wlth
him. I have no idea whether he's being honest or not. There's some things I
did not hear him say. I dld not hear hlm say that his fees would go down if the
cost went up. No, they'd come out of our pockets. All of our pockets. I did
not hear them say he'd reimburse homeowners if thelr home value went down. Me
says they're going to increase. I'm not convinced of that. That's going to be
25
City Council Meeting -- July 22, 1991
born by LiS the homeowners. I also didn't hear him say why the City Council is
still considering th~s despite the many objections, many of them empassioned
objections of the residents of Ihs area. I object to this project. Thank you.
Hayer Chmiel: Thanks Jim. Yes Ha' am.
Ruth Doylan: My name is Ruth Boylan. I live at 6760 Hinnewashta Parkway. Or
poss~b.l.e -Six Rotten Haple Tree ~ay. This is really tough. I've lived out here
since 1953. Hy great, great uncle bought 55 1/2 acres from the government. He
uao the first private owner. Hy husband, my two children and I now nun the last
of ,ny great, great uncle's 55 1/2 acres and we have a little under 3 acres. I
believe in safety. I do believe in progress. I do not believe in destruction.
~ do not believe in having meeting upon meeting where your people have said to
you time and time again that they do not want this. ~e I~ave already voted down
twic:e a walkway. ~e have voted it down twice. Now we are the same people that
voted you in. ~e are also the same people who can vote you out. I do not say
this lightly. I have talked to some of you COUrlCilpeople before you were
CouncLlpeople and I voted for you because I had your assurance that you would do
everything you could that Hinnewashta Parkway would remain a parkway for it's
people and not for .it's gove~'nment. Not for it's developer's that a('e going to
take a few acres of land and put 35 proposed houses on it. This is a land that
was created by many of the people that now live on it. ~e bought it for a
reason. To raise our family...This is very serious to us. This is my heritage.
This i~ something that my 10 year old daughter said to me last year as we stood
out on the deck and looked at our 6 rotting maple trees. And she said, mom.
Someday I hope God will enable me to buy this from you and dad and I said I hope
so too because it's been in my family for over 100 years and those trees were
planted by my uncle. I believe in safety. I have walked that road. I have
riden my bike. I have ran on that road. I've hopscotched on it. Years ago.
I've walked hand .tn harld with my husband. Hy father. Hy mother. Hy
grandparents. My children. Hy sisters. Hy former brothel'. There has been no
incident. I have a family of 3,000 that visit us about every weekend, right
honey? There's never been an incident. ~e the people have to be responsible
also when we're walking a road. ~e need to be responsible. ~e do not need to
talk a private parkway of residents and make it into a speedway from TH 7 and
TH 5. There's no need for it and I don't understand how come after the 3
meetings you have already had with your constituents, that you haven't just
~a.td, hey our people don't want it.
Lowel] Carlson: Lowell Carlson, 4141 Kings Road. I guess some of this stuff
don't quite understand. For instance, from Wictoria line out to TH 5, is that
only a 22 foot road? I mean is that all they're got for right-of-way?
~ill Engelha)"dt: The existing bituminous surface is around 22 feet. There's a
66 foot right--or-.way.
Lowell Carlson: There is a bigger right-of-way to make this road what you're
saying, 22 foot then? Okay then secondly, 1~ there going to be any additional
enlarging of the sewer and water? I've been hearlng a little blt about it but I
really don't quite understand whether there is or there 1eh't.
Bill Engelhardt: There is not.
26
City Council Meeting - July 22, L991
Lowell Carlson: So it isn't going to be like buying a car? 23 to 12 to 7 and
now we're going to come to the accessories and start putting it up the other way
so basically we can go by the $700.007 So the accessories they're going to put
on there, basically there ain't going to be none right?
8ill Engelhardt: You've got it.
Lowell Carlson: Okay. I'll stay with it if it stays there. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else? Seeing none, we'll bring it back to
Council and come up either with a conclusion or whatever.
Councilwoman Dimler: Or no conclusion huh?
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Michael. Would you like to start?
Councilman Mason: You picked on me first last time Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Chmiel: That's why I did it again.
Councilman Mason: Well since I've been elected this is certainly the toughest
issue I've had to deal with. Just going down some comments from some people. I
appreciated what Mr. Boylan sald about the past. I wonder if what we're doing
now isn't trying to rectify some of those problems as Don said earlier. On a
real speciflc level, Mr. Forbord mentioned the subjectivity of a good road/bad
road. I thlnk of Frontier Trail and riding my bike on Frontier Trail before it
was fixed and what Frontlet Trall ls 11ke now and boy I sure 11ke rldlng my blke
on Frontier Trail now. I really do. I disagree a little bit with whether
government ls belng efficient or not. We could have, at least my understanding
of the process is that we could have just said this is your assessment at
$2,500.00 and been done wlth lt. I thlnk on the contrary. By listening to all
of the opinion out there and by what the Mayor's been able to do and what we've
all been able to do, by continuing to take a look at the situation, we've been
able to come up with some more appropriate figures. I wish I could remember who
sald this but I know some political pundant dld say, if you ever get elected to
office, in order to do your job you should never take office with the intent of
getting re-elected. This may happen after whatever comes up here. We'll see.
I don't see fixing the road up, turning it into a speedway. I spend a fair
amount of tlme on Frontlet Tra11, both ina car and on a bike. I haven't
noticed an increase in speed and good grief, with the shape Frontier Trail was
in prior to what lt's 11ke now, if there would be an lncrease you'd thlnk that
would happen. I see two main issues here. Safety and environment. I
understand that wlthin the last 25 years 2 or 3 people have been hurt. That's a
very good record. Clearly as developers come in, as more people come into this
area, there will be more trafflc on that road and I thlnk the safety lssue
becomes paramount. I do have two kids. In terms of getting to a bus and what
not, I would not be comfortable wlth them walking on the parkway the way it ls
now. I'm not going to put our Public Safety Oirector on the spot here but last
week we drove up and down the parkway a number of tlmes. There was an elderly
gentleman with two canes walking along the side of the road. Certainly his
rlght to do that. Had we not crossed the double yellow line, there would have
been a very serious problem. Now crossing a double yellow line in a situation
11ke that ls no blg deal but yet should it be done. Shouldn't it be done. In
27
City Council Meeting , July 22, lg~)l
that same drive there was someone jogging down the road and I'm not sure of the
corner but again, we had to cross the double yellow line. I'm very troubled by
Lhat. There hasn't been a problem yet. ~t what point will there be a problem?
Th,'.~t'.'~ something, that's real tough for me. The environloental issue is another
real ~ough one. Without proper drainage, where is all this stuff going that's
run;~¢.ng off the road? With our surface water' utility management plan, something
will have to be done eventually anyway with that situation. We have the tools
in ha,,d now to do something abou~ it. I know clearly there are a lot of people
out there who think let well enough alone. Clearly tonight there are a number
of you who feel that we should do something about it. One last point here, I've
only lived ir, Chan for 5 years and someone who lived here about a year said,
wel.1, you must be an old timer then. I said no. No, no, no. Not at all.
Parkly I think this is an issue of old versus new too and I believe some people
addressed that. An area such 6ts Chanhassen that is growing as rapidly as we
are, these are issues that the Council, constituents, all of us I think
constantly have to grapple with. I think it's very difficult for both sides. I
think it's very difficult, it's more difficult for the people that have been
here .{ long time. What are these upstarts doing? Coming in here tryi~]g to
change our land and that's a re'tX, very difficult issue. 0o I need to say now
whether I'm going to aye of' nay?
Mayor Chmiel: No. Not at this particular time.
Councilman Mason: Okay. This is very difficult. That's enough. I'll stop.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Only because you're bringing up the safety and the
speed 11mit issues, I'd like lit. Wing to posslbly expound on that with some of
hls studles that he's done on that particular road wlth speed over the last 4
days or however- m~ny days you were out. Plus whatever else you have.
Councilman Wing: I made a comment at a prior public hearing where people kept
bringing up the comments of speed and traffic and by our actions it was golng to
lncrease traffic and it was golng to increase speed. And the same arguments
have come through tonight and ~ would ask everybody that's brought up speed and
trafflc lssues, ls this something you've done a study on or engineers 11ke 8111
have commented on or is it just your personal opinion and I can offer my own.
The comments are well taken but I guess I'm not convinced that thls road ls
going to lncrease o'r decrease speed and I think speed can be controlled by the
clty. I think we have a very proficient Publlc Safety blrector that would be
more th,'~n happy to do what has to be done to protect the residents should that
occur-. Whether it was speed bumps or stop signs or whatever. Both the trafflc
and the speed issue, they're kind of moot points to me because no one's proven
to me they're golng to go up or down nor ls trafflc going to increase or not
increase. I've lived there ].ong enough to know that the progress is here and
I hate progress. I discouraged about growth but lt's reallty. There's no sense
Fighting it. We don't live in the r-ufa1 areas anymore. We're very closely
coming an lnner ring suburb if you w111. At any rate, on the street issue,
because there's so many questions I asked Mr. Hart, our Public Safety Director
1.." he would asslst me in a trafflc study over the last week and both the
Sheriff's Department, the Highway Patrol., Community Service Officer and myself
were out with radar on the Minnewashta Parkway. Of course I was just in my
private caf- monitoring and I came up, .just for those of you that are interested
arm Mr. Mayor' where thls ls appropriate you can just pick out these numbers.
28
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
The ave~'age speed on the road as a whole was 32.6 mph. That was from end to end
and I was out from 7:00 in the morning until 9:00 at night at sporaic times. An
hour at a time and I averaged during the day about 60 cars an hour which
surprised me and then in the evening it was reduced to about 40 cars an hour.
So the traffic was consistent. The highest speed limit I found was about 34.5
mph at Red Cedar Point Road on Minneuashta Parkway. The interesting thing is
that I noted every car turning into Red Cedar Point and you know it's the old
routine, if you can slow the locals down we'd reduce half our problem. But the
average speed of the cars turning into Red Cedar Point along that stretch of
road was 35 mph. They were the highest. The people that had the highest speeds
were the cars that turned into Red Cedar Point. The list went on and on. The
one area that really did concern me greatly was the traffic count and the speeds
directly in front of the beach, the Minneuashta Creek Homeowners at Linden
Circle and is it Kirkuood and Linden on Minneuashta Parkway. I found the sight
line to be non-ex/stent. Steady stream of children Crossing in the blind CUrVe
and the average speed there was 33.3 mph with cars either decelerating right at
that point or accelerating just after they passed it so I almost felt I should
call the Association and say, wave a red flag or put up a red alert because
those of you from that particular area that are using that beach, if there's a
problem on Minnewashta Parkway, that's the one I think that I identified and I
don't know how Scott Harr would refer to this as Public Safety Director but if
there was a blind corner with high speeds with heavy children's useage, that
was the corner. The other one was the Boley curve down towards the Boley
property on 7300 Hinnewashta Parkway. Roughly in that area where it comes
around very strong, steep vegetation. The average speed going around there was
33.6 mph. A completely, totally blind curve and then to tell there's no safety
issue on that road is absurd. I run it every day. I never run on that side nor
do I ride my bike on that side because any car coming across there that's not
paying attention is going to hit me. Is going to find me in their way awful
fast. The highest speed I found on that curve was 41 mph. And interesting,
every speed over 38 mph, with the exception of one city vehicle, was a young
man. I'm afraid they just have a habit of driving kind of fast. The highest
speed on the parkway was 41 that I found the entire week. The lowest speed was
22. Again, the average Mr. Mayor I believe was 32.6. I think that's specific
enough.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Is there anything else you'd like to expound on besides
that?
Councilman Wing: Well, as long as I have the floor. You know being from that
area and having lived there for 26 years, I've seen the changes occur. A lot of
the comments brought up, emotional or not...whether they're founded or not, I'm
very sympathetic for. Obviously I have a responsibility to the City as a whole,
including this project. Whether it's best for the locals in short term or long
term is a very difficult decision but I am very sensitive. I am very sensitive
to the issue of the local input and control of the locals and more than once
this Council has listened to the local individuals. Whether it's been Bluff -
Creek or even more recently the Kurvers Point project, we've listened to the
input from the locals and we've sided with that or let the project ride as such.
I think it's a good project. I think it's an improvement to the community. I've
looked at the ne~ road at the Arboretum where there used to be a road similar to
Minnewashta Parkway. Now they've curbed it and I think it looks classy. The
environmental issues are very difficult for me. We're not to free to pollute
29
as we will. We're ~ot free to let drainage go as we will into Lake Hinnewashta.
Tt'~ a Cl~..s.~ A 1,.~ke, so far. Th,'.~t water- quality is going down yearly. I live on
lt. I've wa+.ched lt. I've disked it e~ery year. It's rmot improving. It's
g~etting worst. Bo~t pressures. Pollutants from our yards. Gasoline from the
roads. Wlthln the next few years, and there's a gentleman tonight who could
p~'obably address 1[. Within the next few years we're going to have to address
storm water conlrol on Lake Hinnewashta and Hlnnewashta Parkway and lt's not
go.L~g to be free. There's going to be something done es what's happened is the
H~yor has worked diligermtly to some up with a path to try and solve the safety
i~su~s which has really be~rm almost unanimous as I've seen it. The path issue.
But to do a path anti the gradlng without flxlng up the road and the road is an
.i. ssu:~. I mean here's where somebody wants the road fixed and somebody doesn't.
Somebody wants the path but some don't. Some say there's a safety problem and
~on, e don't. Som~ s,~y there's a drainage problem and some don't. So now what?
I'm trying to be sensitive to the local needs. I think it's an excellent
project for a very, very ~-~ffectJ. ve cost. I think that the people that are
concerned are very short term in thelr thlnking and that as a Councllmember
represenLing your r.t~'ea and living in your area and using that road on a daily
bas.is, even putting myself into the assessment, it's hard not to be supportive
of tl~is. On the other hand, two issues conme up. Local. control amid listen to
thc loc~1 desires uhlch ls extremely important to me and I am so setback and
disheartened by ul~at the County Assessor did to us this past year and what they
did to cur taxes [hat I don't care if this assessmermt was $30.00, I have a hard
L~mne put~im~g it on ,~nyone. So Hr. H,zyor, at the present time I'm vacilating and
lt's a very emotional issue for me. Safety. The trees. There's golng to be
some victims. The roadway, I won't support patching it or overlaying it.
That's a waste of money. Environment. That's a big one to me and Hr. Hason has
spoken ~.o that. Appearance. I think it's going to greatly enhance the
,~ppoarance. Speed. I thlnk lt's golng to, it's not going to lncrease the
speed. I think we can control it. Traffic. We can control tl~t. Property
v~lues;. I thlnk i~'s going to be a classy operation if the Counc11 chooses to
approve it this evening.
Hayer Chmiel: Okay. Ursula.
Counci].womarl Dimler: Thank you. From the information that I could gather, I'm
going to give you a few facts here and I hope that, some of you will like them
and other won't but I guess I can't please everyone. At the publlc hearlng on
3uly Oth there wore 87 people. 20 oF those spoke publically at that time. 13
were agalnst the roadway improvement. 5 were in favor of the entire project and
2 just asked questions but voiced no opinlon as far as I could see at that time
but they may have asked the questions because they were negative on the project.
I don't know. Out of the 13 no's, only one w.'.~s opposed to everything and I
think most people favored a walkway. At least that's my assessment of that
meeting. Since then I have done a survey of my own. I spoke to 31 people
eye. ball to eyeball and out of those 31 people there were 23 who were not at our
public hearing el, 3uly 8th. Out of those 31, and that's the sector that I
wanted to reach. ~f you'll recall, I wanted to reach the sllent sector. Out of
tho:~e 31 people, 2.5 f~vored the upgrade al'md the ualkw,zy and 6 did not want it.
And J.n further taJkJng wi[h the residents, those that I dld talk to, I dldn't
f.[~:d anyone who opposed the storm sewer. Host ~zcknowledged that there was ~
clra.i, nage problem. Host also expressed safety concerns and acknowledged that
something needed ~.o be done ulth the road ill the future, whether it be done now
3O
City Council Meeting - July Z2, 1991
or 10 years from now. And again, most wanted the walkway. In addition to that
then, 4 parties called me on their volition by telephone this week, Again, 2
were for and 2 were against. I received 8 letters prior to the July 8th
meeting. All 8 of those were against, although 1 has since changed his mind and
now favors the project. One of the others that were against though stated that
they were willing to accept the majority opinion of the neighborhood as long as
the Council made every effort to get an accurate assessment of the neighbors and
that was what I was attempting to do. I received 4 letters here tonight and
there were 2 for and 2 against. That does include the letter we received from
the Oathout's. This leads me to the conclusion that the silent sector does have
an opinion and that there are some that are for the project but t don't have a
handle on the percentages as yet. I think that seeing that the cost per unit is
now down to $758.55, I think that's a positive because that does answer the
concerns that I had for those residents that expressed financial concerns. To
me an 80/20 split with 20~ going to the benefitted properties, that's a pretty
good deal and I do want to compliment Engelhardt and Associates again and the
City Staff and the Council for continuing to bend to the concerns of the people
as ue gather more information and gain new insights. And I guess several of the
people here tonight asked why do we continue? I know it's frustrating. We
continue but I think those are the reasons ue do continue is because ue are
gathering more information and gaining new insights as we go along. I do
continue to be grieved over the proposed loss of the trees on the Boylan
property and I have experienced with the DNR people coming on my property
without permission to assess some trees and I know how you feel. Zt's not a
comfortable feeling. I would have liked to have been included in the process
instead of just having them knock on the door later on and tell me what they
found. So I'm thinking that maybe as is now popular with the Medical
profession, they get a second opinion. Maybe ue can get a second opinion by a
tree expert and that would be of the Boylan's choice.
James 8oylan: The one that they sent out there, you heard what my daughter said
about what he said to her.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes. I don't have that documented though and I think the
rest of the Council.
James Boylan: That's the problem...
Councilman Wing: Before we get off the trees. Bill, you know they may be 300
years old and they may be kind of rotten but they are classics. Is there any
way those can be saved as long as we're around the issue of those trees? Can ue
go around those and project them?
Bill Engelhardt: No. As I said ail along, we're not in the business of trying
to cut your trees. I don't have a grudge against your trees. If I could save
those trees, I would save them. Like Mr. Kirsten's trees, the neighbor to the
Boylan, his maple tree, we're going to have to pull the path tighter to the back
of the curb and that will work there. In the case of the trees on the Boylan
property, even if ue have to bulld a 11ttle retaining wall, I don't know if that
will help to save the roots but we could do that. We can try it.
James Boylan: Bill, Mr. Mayor, I'm sorry to interrupt and we're kind of out of
line here but how come in all of this that the only one who has ever come to
31
City Council. Meetil~9 - July 22, 1991
t,xlk to us .is Ll,~'sLlla? When wu seem to have.
HayoF Chmiel: That was UFs~la'.s choice to do that. We ha~e be~en out there
looklng. I've been out there 3 dozen timee. I drove paet you~ house. I've
parked ou~ at your house. I was waiting fo~' you to look ou~ the window. You
never came out. SL~t the point being.
.7ames Boylan: Well I'm .sorry Hr. HayoF. I guess I should have stayed home and
watched for you.
Mayor Chmie]: Mell. you were looking out the window.
Jame~o Roylall: Flow the hell do I know it's you out there. I've got people
driv~.ng by all day long...
Mayor ChmJ. el: That's besides the point. I will ask you to be in proper decorum
ill t. his Coullcil chamber.
James Boylan: I apologize Mr. Mayor.
liayo'F Chmiel: Thank you. You will continue. You're done speaking 8i117
Bill EngelhaFdt-' We'll do whatever we can to save them.
lla>,oF r..'.l~mie].: Okay, thank you. ~ppreciate that.
Councilwoman Dimler: I do too. I guess my feellngs still is like I don't have
a handle on the perccl~tages but I know there's some support out there and I know
the percentages could very well be 50/50. I don't know. $o my opinlon is that
I would favor to get all accurate as.~e~sment and that I would invite the rest of
the Councll to come out wlth me and we could flnlsh it up in one day by
canvasing the neighborhood like I did over the weekend. It w,'~s full. I enjoyed
talklng to everyone and I thlnk then we can all come to a conclusion that we're
comfortable with.
Mayor Chmiel: I think maybe most of us can come up with a conclusion this
evening one way oF the other.
Councilwoman Dimler: okay, if you've done your own surveys. I do have two
,.zre.,~s~ of concern though tl¥~t I would like to address and that is that I've heard
practically nothlng about the land swap with Victorla and apparently Mr. Forbord
indicated that that land wa.s in their control and he indicated that they hadn't
been approached. I'd 11ke to have that answered and see if there's any extra
cost involved in that.
Mayor Chmiel: Can I just address that? That is a decision between the City of
U.[ctoFi,'z am'id ~.he City of Chanhassel~. I think Mr. ForboFd could be there but
that decislon making ls between the two citles.
Councilwoman OimleF: Okay, and Ilmve we decided on which land it is?
Mayor ChmJ. el: My understanding is the parcel to the west of Minneuashta Parkway
wiJl stay withii~ the City of Victoria. Those on tile east will be brought into
32
City Council Heeting - July 22, 199l
the city of Chanhassen.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, and what land are we swapping for those then?
Hayor Chmiel: Don?
Don Ashworth: No decision has been made. We have met with Victoria. The
Council was supportive of working with the City. We have some options. We
could go in and take the roadway only and not take any of the properties on
either side. That would put some stiff financial burden on Victoria as well as
the owners on either side because that section does not have municipal State Aid
and then in that case those owners would be faced with the full brunt of the
cost. I don't think that the Victoria Council wishes to impose that kind of
cost on them and so I anticipate that their statements that they would like to
work with the City in completing the project at the comparable cost to the
section in Chanhassen is a true statement. We have not stated that we're going
to give away any particular parcels. I think that that's an issue that we
should be open minded on but I see that we probably have, we're probably holding
more of the cards at this point in time than Victoria.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, but do you anticipate any extra costs to be addedd
to this project as a result?
Don Ashworth: No. Not to the project.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, thank you. And then the other concern is that Jo
Ann Hallgren's concern about her 17 units. It's my understanding that she has
an easement on an unpaved road that really belongs to a resident in Stratford
Ridge and this easement is for only one single family. And therefore when the
rest of her property is developed they will have to galn access from TH 7 so I'm
wondering why we are proposing to assess all of her units.
Bill Engelhardt: I guess we're not aware of the easement situation. The
property was laid out and sketched as how many units could be accommodated in
that with access to Hinnewashta Parkway. In the case of the Hallgren property,
it is green acres and those assessments could be deferred until development
takes place and the exact number of units are determined and I think that
would...
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay but if she only has access for one unit from
Hinnewashta Parkway, then I can't see why we're.
Bill Engelhardt: I guess that would be something.
Councilwoman Oimler: Because that is an easement from a private property owner.
Bill Engelhardt: ...consider her as only one unit until it's developed and I'm
sure 17 acres in that area is going to at some point in time.
Councilwoman Dimler: But they won't have access to Hinnewashta Parkway from TH
7. I mean from Hinnewashta Parkway. They'll have to come in from TH 7.
Bill Engelhardt: If that's the case, you would only have one unit.
33
City Counci]. He~;t [llg - Jul>' 22, 1991
CoLincilwoman Oi,,le'F: Yeah, that was the concern. That's all I have.
Mayor chmiel; Okay, tl,al~k yc~.L, Tom?
Councilman Workman: I think this project comes down to either doing the job
correctly or not doing the job ,.tt ali. I tl~£nk Ne know uhat doing the job
correctly &s and by not doing the job, as I mentioned earlier, Ne u~11 just
sil~,ply be pt~1. til'~g tllis decision off to a not too far in the future Council.
Future residents. Older residents or other residents. It needs to be done.
am a little concerned about how the assessment kind of ca,ne doull and I'd like to
write that off a:-; effective community involvement in the political process to
uher~ we got J.t to where it's supposed to be. It seems to me it's a little bit
like we should t,ave maybe attempted to give our best shot a little earlier. I'm
~-emi. nded of a sales person who said ~ can do thJ.~ for this price. And when
at, other sales person was brought into the scene as a competitor, he suddenly is
able to reduce the p~'ice further' and i~ did more for mistrust for the buyer than
anythi~g. I guess I'd like to address why maybe just Ursula vas out there and I
have been out there ¢~r,d I've talked to people and I think I've spent an a~ful
lot of time out there. This Council is human beings and Z'm reminded of the
Lime on the o~her side of the lake when a gentleman, there was a lot split. 20
acre lots. Had to have 10 acre lot minimums and it seemed to me the situation
was, ,~ younger couple coming in[o town is going to have 10 acres and the older
gentleman is going to have the other 10. No're trying to figure out where to
r~u[ tl-,~ ~easemen~s and ~he easem~nts could go anywhere. 0n either of the two
lots. The Cou~cil listened to both sides. The yourmger couple and the older
<jet, tic, man. The older gentle~,a~ looked us in r. he eye from that podium and
bar¢lcally called us a bunch of jerks for even thinking we could do that.
;z,ybody dollars to donuts as to wl~eFe the easements went. It ain't going on the
younger couple. We enjoy beirmg respected and at least somewhat appreciated for
some of the time that we put in and quite fF,znkly I think some of the comments
have done the argument against this parkway more damage than good. I as a human
being do not tend to go where number one I already know what that person's
~.l~inking. Number two, they don't respect me and that's what I've been told, in
so many uoFd:'~. So I go where I know I'm goirmg to maybe get some differing
oplnion~7 and sonme open mindedness but not closed mindedness. This Council is
trying to manage the growth. I don't know that we're trying ~.o promote it or
trying to manage the growth. The sewer, the water and the growth that's coming
~o Lake Hirmneu~shta .ts not spurned on by this Coum~cil I can tell you and ue who
operate on the mininmum staff level, I don't think staff has all the time in the
world trying [.o promote and urge people to grow. It's happening naturally. I'm
going to vote for this project because I do think it is a good deal, if this
ro~duay project c~m~ be termed that. Looking at all roaduay systems and how that
oystenm operates and again, we don't create that system. We attempt to operate
wi~h.t~, it and you either do it oF you don't and you wait for the consequences
later on. Z don't believe in doing that in this situation. If I were voting on
I. hio project solely fo~' Fe--.eleci:ion o~' for votes, I may not and probably
wouldn't vote on it. If I were courmting heads in here, who's going to vote for
m~ and who's not, I'd probably vo~e against this project. And that is not why I
was elected. This is an unfriendly moment for this Council who is at this
m,omen[ in time have to make, have to make ti'me decisions and so I am doing that.
Hayor Chmiel: Okay, thanks Tom. Z know exactly a lot of the feelings that you
people are going through beck, use of the asse.ssments and because of the change.
34
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
I've gone through it and I've probably sat in the same position that you're in.
Getting on this Council gives us a position that we have to look at the overall
good for the city and I don't want to quote. I'm not God by any stretch of the
imagination. I'd like to speIi God backwards and have it be as a dog. Just wag
my tail rather than my tongue. But I feel that there are several issues here
that needs to really be addressed. One of those that directly points to us is
fact of safety. Safety is an issue to me for every resident of this community.
Not just Minnewashta Parkway. Environmental concerns are the other concerns
that I also have within this city. We as a Council have adopted some strong
stringent requirements as far as the City's concerned. Whether it be trees or
runoff water or whatever the situation is. We look at ~hat and we practice
basically what we preach. There are a Iot of concerns. I look here tonight and
I see a couple of youngsters and it's sort of nice to have them here so they
know exactly what's happening too. But as I look at this I feel that by putting
some stop signs in the area, those two areas that we had looked at was Kings
Point and Linden Circle, will be sort of a deterrent. We're not putting them in
for the fact of that stop signs are put in to control traffic and flow. But
there is a need for those signs I feel and there is a safety issue along with
that. I don't expect to see that road be a 45 or a 55 mph speed limit. I want
it as a 30. And if it can be less, that's all wei1 and good. I think the
residents of that area will probably be the first ones in uprising and saying
keep it at 30. Don't put it down to 25. Many times we find ourselves moving
and going from one point to another and find ourselves going a little too fast
than what we should be. Time is what's needed and to allow for that time.
think that over the period of time I was out there when Richard was out there
doing his calculations on speed with the radar. I ran into a couple of the
other Council people as well. I've had people stop and talk to me as I sat out
there on a Saturday for almost an hour and a half just to see what was
happening. I've tried it during the week. I've tried it early mornings and
there is a lot of traffic. There's no question and it's generated from within.
I wanted to do a study to find out where people were coming and going from.
Whether they were using Minnewashta Parkway as an access from TH 5 to TH ? or
from TH 7 to TH 5. I don't think you're going to find that because of TH 4!
keeping it at 55 mph speeds. They're in a hurry. They're going to be going to
work or coming from work so they're not going to go back down to a 30 and making
stops as well. If it presents a problem, we'li enforce that. We'll enforce
that 30 mph speed and I think we're going to have to. $o with that I think I at
least feel I know where I'm coming from. I wanted to make sure that when we
brought these figures down that everyone has been treated equally in trying to
determine how we came up with that. We had to do some review back into other
projects that had happened and how did we treat those people and I wanted to
make sure that how we treated them was the same way we were going to treat you.
So with that I'll just sort of close. I will call for a motion on this project.
If someone would be willing to make that motion? And by the way we do need a
4/5 majority for this to go through but I'd still sort of question that portion
but.
Councilwoman Dimler: Mr. Mayor, I'm still really uncomfortable. Is there any
reason why we couldn't survey one more time those who are not here? I really
would like to see. They're not here tonight to have a say.
Mayor Chmiel: I received calls, 2 for and received a letter this evening,
another one for.
City Cou;~cil. Meeting ~-Jttly gi, 199].
Councilwoman Oim.l. er t Right, yeah,
Mayor chmLe].: And ~. don't think if we went through tl',~t again, T don't think
we're goJ. ng Lo come up w.[th a conclusion.
Cou~]ciiwoman Dimler: Z don't have a feel for the Trolls Glen area or you know
towards TH 5 because I was working 'from the south going from TH ? towards TH 5
,.~d T. didn't u.'~.t to th,.~t area on TH .5 towards TH ~ at a11 znd I have no feeZ for
the~. ~. did try to call a few neighbors out there that I know and see how they
feel and they didn't get back to me so. Z mean that's a iarge section of peopZe
there t. hat are unrepresented then,
Councilman Mason: Mr. Mayor, there were a number of meetings before this.
We've had one offJ. cial public hearing and one unofficial public hearing on this
and Z guess I, at thi.s poii~t I don't see tile point of delaying the vote any
]onger.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes, I can understand but I did have some people say that
I cai. led today in tl]~t TroJ. ls Glen ,'zre,z, this was the first tlley'd heard of it.
~ kl]ow that's unbelJeveable but it's true.
Counc:ilma~ Mason.' fit that poil]t I'm not sure that that's our problem.
Mayor Chmiel: Right. ThJ. s has been in the paper. Front page and everyone
receJ, ves J.t.
Councilman Workman: Mr. Mayor, I'd make a motion to approve the feasibility
s[t.tdy for upgrado to Minnewashta Parkway, authorize preparation of pial~s and
specifications, Improvement Project 90-.15.
Councilman Mason~ Second.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion?
Resolution ~91-?0: Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Mason seconded to
approve the Minnewashta Parkway Feasibility study and authorize preparation of
plans and speciflcat£ons for Improvement Project ~0-15. Mayor Chmiel,
Councilman Workman and Councilman Mason voted in favor. Councilwoman Dimler and
Councilman Wing were silent. The motion carried unanimously.
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT AMENDMENT REGARDING THE FENCE SCREENING HEIGHT FROM 8
FEET TO 15 FEET, 7851 PARK DRIVE, LAKESHORE EQUIPMENT. STEVE WILLETTE.
Charmin A1-Saff: Mt'. Mayor, City Council. The applicant is not present. He's
not here to represel~t himself. He's aware of the item being scheduled on the
agenda.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, if he's not here I would suggest that we posslbly table
this and put it onto our next agenda and make sure that he's notifled so he can
at J east be here to discuss it.
Paul Krauss: W~;'d be happy to do that. tie was notified several times but
f. hJngs come up so yes. We will make sure.
36
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
Councilman Wing: Paul, before we get off number 7. That entire corner is kind
of pre-dated from our time. The setback, the signs and then the kind of
buildings of that particular business just doesn't seem compatible with what
we're after.
Paul Krauss: There's no question you're right.
Councilman Wing: Alright. So it was pre-dated happenings and there are no
solutions?
Paul Krauss: Well, the building wasn't built that many years ago. It's still
in recent memory but there's clearly a lot of things that we've changed in
ordinance since then and the expectations have changed since then.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, let's move on to item number
APPOINTMENT TO THE HOUSING AND REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY.
Todd Gerhardt: At our last meeting the City Council directed staff to advertise
for the appointment of HRA position that was open. We did not receive any
applications for that position. Charlie Robbins has expressed to me that he
would 11ke to be reappointed to that position. We can advertise again if you
wish. Staff would leave that up to the Council.
Mayor Chmiel: No. I would like to make a motion that we reappoint Charlle
Robbins for a commissioner of the HRA for a 5 year term. I'll make that as a
motion.
Councilman Workman: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Any discussion?
Councilman Wing: 5 year term?
Mayor Chmiel: Right.
Councilman Wing: My limited experience with the HRA is that they control
enormous amounts of money. They have a lot of control and power and authority.
They have incredible impact on this city. It's appearance, It's future. It's
growth. Businesses. I guess I'm very pleased to see two council members on
there. I'm elected as a City Councll member and I have less budget than the
non-elected individuals on the HRA. And this Council, at least this Council's
worklng on the Clty's future and TH 5 corridor and all these issues but I don't
see any inbetween between the Council and the HRA other than we have council
members on there. But what's happening there lsn't really being discussed here.
And we of course have staff who's kind of compatible with both groups as I see
lt. Who gets appointed? I'd like to see another Council member on there
frankly but in lieu of that Mr. Mayor, I would ask that as Mayor and a member of
that Commission that there be considerably greater communication and lnner house
cooperation between the HRA and the City Counctl. There's just too much going
on that I feel I want to be in on and have some say on. If nothlng else just to
attend the meeting and be on record. That starts with rooflines, which is of
course you and I don't want to get into that but everything you've done I happen
37
ciLy Council Heet[ng-.-July 22, 1991
to agree with buL I'm not so sure we're not just lucking out. I happpen to
really like tl~e monument you're creating for the city but are we lucking out or
~.s it a plan and is it compatible with Lhe plan the Council's working on?
Mayor Chmiel: COLtncilma~ Will,j, you have my oaf-.
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I'd like to, I haven't made any bones about it in
fh:~. past and I haven't cllanged my position. Because of that same reason, I'm
91ad to hear Richard say that. Because of their- huge budget and they are non-
elected, Z have always felt [h,'.~t the Council should be the HRA and I continue to
renl that way.
Councilman Mason; That's interesting that you mentioned that because I just
whispered into Tom's ear.
Councilman Workman: He was looking at Richard through there.
Councilman Hason: Well that could be. ~bout what would tile advantage be to
having City Council be the HR~? Z agree with what Dick was saying. Boy that's
a lot of mol]eX.
Hayo'r c. hmiel: I guess I feel that that's true and that was one of the positions
that we strove for was to have at least 2 Council members on there. Z l~ke
having the general public as ue~l. Some of these people are experienced Jn a
particular area and have the expertise. For those reasons I would just as soon
have J[ kept as a 3/2 with at any giver, time Council has any real concerns,
those COllecT-ils C,~ll be brought up to the HRA.
Councilwoman Din,let": Yes, we can bring up the concerns but we don't )lave any
say and they do I'~ve the final say and Z guess I still oppose that.
Hayer ChmJel: Well, that fina], say,
Coltncilwoman Oinller: .qnd we are really ii~ a time of rapid development and like
you said, the 'r}l 5 corridor. It can make such a difference to our clty and the
citizens won't really be represented. T.t will be those individuals who have
been appoint ed.
Councilman Workman: Well I've always said that, and this is what Hike is maybe
gettlng at here is an acco~mnt,'~bility thing with the money and yeah. There's a
lot of cash there and there's golng to be a lot of cash in the futmtre. The
bf. ggest thing that I see ls wi'mere, and this has nothlng to do with tile
individuals on the HR~ now w[mo are non Clty Council members. It's a general
s~aLement that they are not. as, I'm very i~ tune with what the HRA is doing and
the Clty Counc11. They are not in tune, as in tune ulth what the Clty Councll
Ls doZng. Now whether or not that's, and maybe that's why HRA's mere set up to
keep it separate and have different goaJs and different ideas than the uhlms of
the voters.
Co,~ncJlwoman ¢imler: That doesli't make any sense.
Councilman Workman: Well, people can apply pressure to vote to elected
officials where riley can't to non-elected.
38
City Council Meeting - July 22, iggl
Councilwoman Dimler: It's thelr money.
Councilman Workman: Well that remains to be a question of who's money it is
too. But you know whether all City Counc11, I don't thlnk we could go wrong
with 5 City Council members as HRA members. But are we closing the process up
and I don't know.
Mayor Chmlel: Sometimes I think we are. Same thlng with the HRA or
development. I still like the involvement of citizens within the community
rather than havlng the full flst control as we would here. Maybe there again
we're getting 3 more opinions as opposed to the 5 that we have here.
Councilwoman Dimler: Rlght. And I agree with that except you know we do have
other commissions. They don't have such a huge budget. That's what really
concerns me.
Mayor Chmlel: You reallze why the budget is there and I know you know that.
It's only because of the tax increment financing that we acquire all those
dollars and put 1nrc the fund to be used accordingly to advance the Clty with
the different projects that we normally wouldn't be able to.
Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, if ! support you and Tom, that would be the
majority vote so I guess it's ktnd of moot at this point. Which I would intend
to do but January 1, 1992 I would like to see a real program of cooperation and
communication.
Mayor Chmiel: I think we can certainly do that.
Councilwoman Oimler: As I understand it, we don't have a vote anyway. We just
are discussing. You make the declslon ls that correct?
Mayor Chmiel: That's correct. But you get to vote.
Councilwoman Dimler: We do?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Councilman Workman: Z thought it was your appointment.
Mayor Chmiel: We have a motion on the floor with a second.
Resolution ~91-71: Hayor Chmiel moved, Councilman Workman seconded to appoint
Charlie Robbins for a 5 years term to the Houstng and Redevelopment Authority.
All voted in favor except Councilwoman Dimler who abstatnted and the mot/on
carried.
Councilman Wing: Informational question Mr. Mayor. Why a 5 year term? It
seems extremely long.
Mayor Chmiel: That's the By-laws.
Roger Knutson: It's a Statute.
39
Councilman Workman: I migl~t adct a.d th_is might not be comforting to the other
three becauso tile other three certai~ly I~ave the option to come to the meetings
and it's tough to add another meeting but I used to have a lot more suspicion
about the HRA than I do now. Now people suspect me. I feel comfortable that
Todd and Don and Chairman Horn and the Mayor and all of us have them on a pretty
L.[ght leash.
Councilwoman Dim]er: And no, I trust you guys but it's the future that I'm
conc,-.'rned about. And for the record sako, you didn't call for an abstention but
T would 11ks to have my vote be an abstain.
COUNCIL PRESENTATION:
Mayor Chmiel: I received a letter from Barbara Montgomery, the Chair of the
Chanhassen Senior Citizon Commission. She would like me to attend a particular
meetlng and they're also looking at many different needs of the Senlors and
feasibility studies and ti~ings to be done and so oil. We're also going to take
to them about the potential of trylng to get some cltlzens for the tasks as I
have mentioned. So I will be attending, if I'm comprised of that meeting. I
w.ll]. ~ry to attend that nex~ meetlng and address some of these lssues that are
~. here ..
Cou~cilwoman Dimler: What day is that?
Mayor Chmi,,;1.: I don't, know. But I'll be told, When will the Senior Commission
mee~ again?
Paul Krauss: Mayor I'd have to check my calendar. It should be 4 weeks from
last Frida?.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay Jast Friday which would have been the lgth. The 16th of
August?
Paul Krauss: I belJ. eve so. I can confirm that for you.
Mayor Chmiel:
time?
Would you please. Would you let me know. And that's at what
Paul Krauss: 9:30.
Mayor Chmiel: 9:30 a.m..
Councilman Mason: Mr. Mayor one, this isn't really Council presentation but at
ti'me Board of Adjustment and Appeals? I will be out of town on the next Council
meeting that would coae up. That's my neighborhood. I'm wondering if that
could come up o;~ the Counc.L1 meeting after that?
Paul Krauss: We have no problem with that. We just have to inform the
applica~t.
Mayor' Chmiel: Yeah. What's the time frame for the applicant on that particular
J. tem? 0o you know?
4O
City Council Meeting - July 22, 1991
Paul Krauss: I don't know.
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe you can check that out with them and then get back to
Councilman Mason.
Councilman Mason: Okay thanks.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATION:
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Paul. Moon. Is this something we should even discuss?
Paul Krauss: Well there's two things. One is still a confidential nature and
you've got an envelope updatlng you on that. The other concerns some action
that we frankly already have taken but haven't gone before the Judge yet and ue
just wanted to appralse you of that. You'll recall that Moon Valley was
involved in the creation of the ordinance from the get go. I mean we listened
to them. Tried to develop an ordinance to achleve the Clty's goals wlthout
telling them they had to stop. They were given 6 months to apply for a permit.
I notlfled them by registered mall twice during that perlod. They refused to
apply for a permit. In fact they sued us at the end of the 6 months questioning
our ablllty to regulate them at a11. The Judge threw thelr sult out. Said we
did have the right to require a permit. Gave them 30 days to respond. That was
I thlnk May 25th. About May 20th they hired a planning consultant who Roger
and I can vouch for his professionalism and validity. We're glad to see they
hired John Voss to work wlth them but in the interest, and John had just come on
and in the interest of allowing him to prepare a plan we said alright. The
Judge sald May 2$th. We'll give you untll June 30th. Give you an extra 30 days
to develop a plan. June 30th nothing showed up. Early July I spoke to Mr.
Voss. He's now saylng he's got his authorization to proceed but he needs more
study and he needs this and that and he gave me a tentative schedule that sort
of sald we may have something to revleu by September. At that point I went back
to our legal counsel and said this is getting silly. We really have to hit him
ulth a 2 x 4 if that's what it takes to let hlm know that we're serious.
what we've got scheduled is a court hearing back down in Carver County asking
the Judge or telllng the Judge that we gave them extra slack. They still
haven't performed. We'd like to see them stopped. A stop work order posted. I
don't know what the likelihood ls he's golng to do that but it should 11ght a
fire under them and let them know us're serious. If there's no, if you have a
problem with our proceeding along these ways, those proceedings don't have to
be, you don't have to go through it but that's what we're scheduled to do at
this moment.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I guess we're trying to really make him comply with what
the requirements basically are. I don't like taking anybody's livelihood away
from them. Putting a stop work order on a facility. Somehow I would try to get
back to them. Reiterate just exactly what you sald and if he doesn't comply
wlth that, then I would suggest we have to more forward to what you're saying.
Give one more attempt.
Paul Krauss: We've been in contact with his attorney.
Mayor Chmiel: Have we tried directly with him?
41
Paul Krauss: With Zwier? No. We met with h.im 2-..3 months ago. 2 months ago.
Ir. was Tom Scot L and myself. A few other staff people. And frankly it didn't
reassure me much. They had decided they were going to move forward and listen
re the Judge's order but ~:t was clear to me we were thinking about two different
things in terms of what should be left of that hill when it's all said and done.
[lu~ bo. that as it may, we're not getting any respo~se. I can try to contact
Zwier' directly.
Mayor Chmiel: Let's try that before we put that slap on. But if it's to no
av,z.[]., then w~.,.'re goiRg to have. to proceed. I don't like doing it but that's
what we're going to have to do. Okay, if there's no other discussion, can
~ hav~.; a motion for ad.iour~,ment?
Councilman Wing: Can I have one quick question? I don't know if I need it on.
Hayer Chmiel: Was i~. 011 the agenda?
Co,Jncilman Wing: When you say this agenda thing, I'm always so striken with
being here that I hesitate a split second and all of a sudden you're on. All
I'd like to know is that the next meeting from staff, I don't want to see this
TH .5 corridor- study get dropped. I'd like ~.o know wl~e;'e Paul and Don are
thinking and where they're going with it. Number two, the sign ordinance has
been asked for some action. I want to know, and I realize there's, you can do
it in one sentence but I"d like the sign ordinance addressed but most important,
I'm concerned at)out new development. I'm hoping and assuming that on the
landscape ordinance the 6ouncil might vote on a couple extra trees. I'd hate
sr~e ally new developments come in without this lam~dscape ot'dillance.
Paul Krauss: A couple of those things I can quickly answer. We're kicking
those ordinances back i~to the Planning Commission. f.ls you're aware, they've
looked at a preliminary draft to cut some of these things and given us some
marching orde. r.o, to change some thin.gs and we're doing that. Relative to the
sig~ ordJ. na,ce, I think most of you are aware that we brought on a part time
planner. Jo ~n is now on a part time basts herself and Kathy ~aneson is flow
with our department and Kathy's got some excellent experience. She worked in a
8¢),000 suburb of Salt Lake City and one of the things she did there which made
my eyes perk up in the interview is she wrote their sign ordinance. She and I
are working up a proposal because wt.; think we need a sign task force to work
with on '[his thing and that will be coming to you shortly.
Hayor Chmiel: Okay, good. One other thing before I ask for the adjournment.
The specs for Kurvers 2nd ~ddition. Staff would like these back so if you would
just put them up here so they can collec~ them. So they don't have to get more
printings done and save another tree.
Counciluoman Dimler moved, Councilman Hason seconded to adjourn the meeting.
voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting uas adjourned at 10:35
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
42