1991 06 10CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
JUNE 10, 1991
Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m. The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCZLMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Mason, Councilman Workman,
Councilman Wing and Councilwoman Dimler
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Todd Gerhardt, Charles Folch, Paul
Krauss, Jo Ann Olsen, Scott Hart and Todd Hoffman
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilwoman Oimler moved, Councilman Mason seconded to
approve the agenda with the following amendments: Councilman Workman wanted to
add an item 3.75, clarification to the Minutes of the Kurver's Point Addition
approval; Councilwoman Dimler wanted to discuss under Council Presentations
storage space for School District ~112; Councilman Mason wanted to discuss the
Board of Equalization and Review meeting; and Councilman Wing wanted to discuss
the DNR Tree Project. All voted in favor of the agenda as amended and the
motion carried.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to approve
the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendations:
b. Approve Beer and Wine License Application, Happy Garden II Restaurant, Seven
Forty-One Crossing.
c. Approve One Day Temporary Beer License, Chanhassen Fire Department, June 15,
1991.
d. Conditional Use Permit for the Construction of a Storage Shed to be Located
within the 75 feet Shoreland Setback, 102 Sandy Hook Road, Peter Moscatelli.
e. Approval of Bills.
g. Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Clarify Zoning Administrator as Planning
Director, Final Reading.
h. Resolution ~91-54: Formalize 1991 Budget Reductions.
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
A. SET SPECIAL MEETING DATE, JOINT CITY COUNCIL/PUBLIC SAFETy COMMISSION
MEETING, MONDAY, JUNE 24, 1991 AT &:O0 P.M..
Councilman Wing: June 24th is a joint meeting with Public Safety Commission
proposed and also there's a good possibility that would be a public hearing for
Minnewashta Parkway. I'll be out of town that particular Monday and I realize
that my being here isn't going to necessarily change anything. However, if
City Council Meeting --. Jur,e 10, 1991
there was any interest in delaying those to the next meeting, I would be pleased
to do that if you would like my attendance. If attendance isn't necessary
then...
Mayor Chmiel: I think we can. I see any real, is there any real rush with
that?
Don Ashworth: Well, it would actually work out better. On the 24th I also have
the auditors would like to come in and if Councilman Wing wouldn't mind missing
that, I would like to take and switch and then put the auditors on the 24th and
the Public Safety item for the first meeting in July.
Councilman Wing: That would be ideal. Don, how do you feel about moving the
public hearing to the first meeting in July?
Oon Ashworth: Bill just said it wouldn't hurt anything.
Councilman Wing: If there's any inconvenience, it's not a major issue to me.
Don Ashworth: We've sent out notices but we've got lists. I'm assuming that it
isn't that difficult.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Would you like to make that as a motion?
Councilman Wing: I would move that the, assuming that we're going to set the
24th for the publlc hearlng, that the publlc hearing and the jolnt City Council/
Public Safety Commission meeting be moved to I belleve July ?th. Flrst meeting.
Is that correct? Is that the rlght date I have?
Oo~ Ashworth: I'm not sLtre. I don't have a calendar.
Councilman Wing: Scott, does that meet with the Commission? Is that alright?
Scott Harr' That's fine.
Councilman Mason: I'll second that.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes, it's July 8t h.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to set the special meeting date
for the Joint City Council/Public Safety Commission meeting for Monday, July 8,
1~91 at 6:00 p.m.. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
F. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Councilwoman Dimler: Item (f). The Board of Review and Equalization Mlnutes.
On page 10, the l~th 11ne from the bottom. It doesn't make any sense. It says,
he was not able to be here tonight but he asked me if I would leave thls pause.
What I said was, plead hie cause. I know lt's technical but I also wanted to
bring thls up because I thought somewhere in the Mlnutes and I couldn't fled it.
Might have been when the tape was changed. I thought that we made it rather
clear that we wanted to stay wlthln the legal 11mlts and to do whatever was
legal but ~o stay out of the illegal realm. Does anybody else recall that?
City Council Meeting - June 10, 1991
Councilman Wing: I remember I brought up 2~ only because that's an arbitrary
number. I knew nothlng about, that was just a...statement and then we went to
1~ but then the question was brought up. Can we do anything? But I remember at
least between you and I, a considerable discussion about not exceeding the legal
limits. I don't know where that flt lnto the discussion.
Councilwoman Dimler: I don't either and I'm thinking maybe it was when the tape
was changed. Maybe it dldn't get recorded.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. I don't recall exactly the proper term but as you
remembered, I had some questions as to how this would affect with the State.
That was my concern and that's why I voted against that particular proposal.
Councilwoman Oimler: Yes. But my feeling was that we made it real clear to
stay within the legal limits so I was really surprised to see the article in the
paper.
Mayor Chmiel: My position was, I wasn't against giving lower taxes. We've been
dolng that for the past 2 years and we've been doing it very well.
Councilwoman Dimler: So I don't know what to do about this because obviously
they put the Minutes out right? It isn't our staff that does it?
Don Ashuorth: No. This particular set was completed by ourselves. And I
agree, it was positively the intent of the Council to stay within the limits.
Slnce we don't have a speclfic 11ne 1rem, I would recommend that in approving
the Minutes, that you instruct staff to add a footnote or clarification section
restating that it was the City Council's intent to stay within the overall 1%
limitation.
Councilman Wing: Councilwoman Dimler did say specificially is our legal limit
1~. That was a dlrect question. Then I'll go with that. And then the next
statement, whatever our legal 11mlt ls whlch really clarifies I thlnk our
position I felt. That's page 18.
Councilwoman Dimler: Apparently they didn't interpret it that way though.
Don Ashworth: To re-emphasize that point, you may want to have staff put a
clarification rlght below Councilman Wing's comment. Note, thls was intended to
insure that the City stayed within the 1~. Whatever actions would be necessary
to keep us within the 1~ were in fact adhered to. Something of that effect.
Councilwoman Oimler: Okay.
Mayor Chmiel: You're right. That's what it does say.
Councilwoman Dimler: But they didn't interpret it that way so I was just trying
to get feedback to see, I thought I was real strong about that.
Don Ashworth: As far as I am aware, number one. That item was not on the
Commissioner's agenda. Staff has lntended to attend that meeting. We dld
prepare a letter that was sent to the Chairman, Earl Janan. The letter was
never read. Solely excerpts from the Minutes themselves and those solely by the
CJ. ty (:o~]ncJ..]. I~leei~j_n9 ~ JL~l~e 10, t99].
Ctlalrman. No one e.Ls,-; had tho~;e Minutes so even Commissioner KlJ. ngeli'~utz, who
t~,:.td s~opped in ~'[t~.rw~'r'ds, wc, s ~ .1.1'l:tle b~ewi.l, det'ed because he had nothirlg to
follow through that discussiO~l. I do plan on attending the meeting which ls the
17th. Monday. And I have placed the City as a proposed speaker.
Councilman Workman: Would thls be an opportunity? I guess was infuriated by
the newspaper ~rticles, which Z am on a regular basls now. And is this not a
time for us to start looklng at hiring our own. Gettlng back to Ursula's
comments about didn't we say go the legal limit? Z think it's written all over
here. 01dn't Orlln do that to us? Who did that to us? Z mean lsn't it tlme to
hire our own ~nd can we do that ~d should we do that?
Mayor Chmlel; That's something that I brought up some time ago. Potentially to
look at it and ~ think there's a lot more to i~ than what we're paying to the
County. But that's something 'that we can review and come up with a total dollar
cost and make th:~t determination after that.
Councilwoman Oimler' Okay, if there's no further discussion I guess I would
move the Minute:s with the suggested footnote by staff as Mr. Ashworth has
indicated.
Mayor Chmiel~ Is there a second to that motion?
Councilman Workman: Second.
Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the following
Minutes:
Board of Equalization and Review Minutes dated May 20, 1991 as amended to
include ~1~ intent statement to read as follows: Note, this ua~ intended to
insure that the City stayed within the 1~. ~hatever actions would be necessary
to keep the City uithJn the 1~ were in fact adhered to.
City Counci:L Minutes dated May 20, 1991
Planning Commission Minutes dated May 15, 1991
Park and Recreation Commission Minutes dated Hay 21, 1991
Senior Commission Minutes dated May 17, 1991
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
VISZTOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
AWARD OF BIOS: 1~91 SEWER TELEVISING.~ONTRACT~ PROJECT 90-10.
Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. In a colltinuing effort to
reduce the Clty's over,,11 infiltration inflow volume 1rite our sanitary sewer
system ,~nd correspondingly reduce our annual Metro Waste charges, another sewer
televising progranl has been prepared. Thls year's program has concentrated on
1. ow lylng areas ~djacent to lakes and wetland~ where potential inflow is
hlghest. Three quotes were received with the low from Pipe Service Corporation
at 19.4 cents per linear foot for a total pl'oject cost of $5,853.~5. Pipe
Set'vices Corporation has performed satisfactorly on previous work within the
City Council Meeting - June 10, 1991
city. Therefore it is recommended that the 1991 sewer televising program be
awarded to Pipe Services Corporation in the amount of $5,853.95.
Mayor Chmiel: Charles, do you remember what our costs were for the last time we
went through that process?
Charles Folch: Last year it was 19.8 cents so this year it's actually .4 of a
cents lover.
Hayor Chmiel: I thought it was a little lower but I didn't know how much. Good.
Any discussion?
Councilwoman Dimler: I move approval.
Councilman Workman: Second.
Resolution ~91-55: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
award the bid for the 1991 Sewer Televising Contract, Project No. 90-10 to Pipe
Services Corporation in the amount of $5,853.95. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously.
WEST 79TH STREET IHPROVEHENTS EAST OF TH 101, PROJECT 91-8.
Charles Folch: As I discussed in the report, two bids were received for this
project. The low bid submitted by Mldwest Asphalt Corporation ls approximately
2~ lower than the revised engineer's estimate. Following the review of the bids
and a reference check on the contractor, the project engineer, Scott Hart1 of
Van Ooren-Hazard-Stalllngs has recommended that an award be awarded to Midwest
Asphalt Corporation. As you are aware, this improvement project is necessitated
by the Valvoline Rapid 0il development and overall plat of the Gateway 1st
Addition. The Clty to date has received a signed development contract. However,
a letter of credit and some needed easement documents are still outstanding. In
an effort to lnsure the Clty's interest and be consistent ulth development
policies, I would recommend tabling this item to the June 24th City Council
meetlng to allow the developer more tlme to full111 these commitments.
Mayor Chmiel: Any discussion? There's a suggestion that we table this to the
June 24th meeting.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Oimler seconded to table awarding the
bids for the West 79th Street Improvement Project 91-8 to the June 24, 1991 City
Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
COHHUNITY DEVELOPHENT BLOCK GRANT ALLOCATIONS, YEARS XVI AND XVII.
Paul Krauss: At your last meeting you reviewed proposal by staff to reallocate
some Block Grant funding. It involved two requests. One was a swap of
$3,000.00, whlch ls basically to help Hennepln County out in their accounting
system. It also helps us out a little bit too. Sojourn Senior Bay Care would
be able to get the $3,000.00 we allocated to them immediately instead of waitlng
until this year's funding arrives in July or August. It's just an accounting
decislon basically and it really doesn't affect our ablllty to fund anythlng
that you wanted to. And we need approval from you to juggle those funds around.
City Cou~cil Meeting -- June 10, 199].
The second wac ar, issue concerning a [easibility stLtdy t. hat had been proposed.
Two fe;~sibilJ, ty s~.udies. One for a senior center. ~nother fei- senior housing.
There were s~,ie concerns r'aised by the Council that we seem to be, I guess
fLtndir~g ;.~ series of studies rather than actually doing thi~gs with the money and
there was some concern about that there uas also information out there that ue
should get a hold of that might respond to these concerns. I've done a couple
things. We did get a hold of a copy of the Metro Council's Senior Housing
Report ,.~nd there's a summary of it in your packet. I guess I'd have to say
briefly that while it's interesting data, it doesn't give us a whole lot to work
with in a local situation. Zt's a regional study. The data they use is 10
years old in terms of census information. It concludes that there's needs in
the metro area a~d southwestern area for senior housing. In fact I just read an
article in the Real Estate 3ournal that the vacancy rate in senior housing has
been going down from 12~ to 9~ recently in this area, but it's not real
conclusive. '.[ guess ir, summary, I share the Council's concern about doing
studies but the study that gave us the Senior Commission was a very inexpensive,
generalized product that uas not specifically tailored to housing or senior
center. Zt was just do we have seniors and what are their issues? It was based
on a mail survey and provided some real good interesting data but I dare say
it's not conclusive enough for me to be responsible in coming before you and
asking that t. he City appropriate large amounts of funds or the HR~ do that to
build these things because I don't knou that the real questions have been
answered. ~fter having reviewed that, the Senior Commission made a
r~:comme~dation to you to do these two studies out of some Block Grant ~llocation
that we've had reserved fei- that sort of use. Basically because the questions
we need to have ~nswered is, (a) are these things feasible? Is there actually a
demand for them? If so, what is the demand? Then (b), if we're going to go
ahead with these sorts of pYograms mild it's a long term goal to develop these
because everybody realizes you ha~e to build a coalition and get the support and
figure out the financing_ But if we're going to go ahead with them for example
'.~i(h the housing, where should it be located to be attractive? What's an
appropriate rent structure? How many rooms are people looking for? Do they
r~eed to park 1 or 2 cars for the parking be underground or attached or surface
parking okay? With the senior center ue want to know what programs we need.
What sort of management associations we need. How do we actually run this
thing? You can almost have enough information to go to an architect and say
give me some preliminary drawings about uhat this might look like and ~hat it
might cost. I remain convinced that we need these documents to conclusively
kno~ where ~e're going to go on those two issues. ~gain, I share the concern
that I'd much rather be doing something more useful with this. Z guess in
defense of it I point out that we funded this year, out of the last two years
block grant, we managed to fund everything that's been requested of us. We have
full funding for' South Shore Senior Center. Sojourn Bay Care is a new facility
for us. We're doing some things uith and we're doing of course the handicapped
accessible park eq~tipment and a couple of other projects with it. We've been in
contact with the Chanhassen Selliors gl'cup, the ones who play cards over at the
school. They've asked, in a nebulous sort of way, for funding but we need to
work witl, them over time to figure out what exactly they want to do that we can
work with them. That ue can use block grant money for. Of course this block
g'¢ant money comes with stri~gs and it's a very limited amount of activities that
you can fund. So ue would still recommend that we go ahead with those studies.
Z think it's going to provide some useful data. One of the suggestions ~ had
though is, there's been a concern and again it's one Z share that if we put a
City Council Meeting - June 10, lggl
dollar figure out there, the consultants know the dollar figure and you tallor
your work product exactly to it and spend every penny you have in your account.
It klnd of eliminates the competition. What we'd be willlng to do certainly ls
to just have you act tonight on that transfer of $3,000.00 and if you would,
direct us to go lssue request for proposals for those studles without a dollar
flgure attached. Then we can get some feedback from you and we can see where
they are and maybe we can economize a little blt on it and free up some fundlng
for other 1rems. We'd be happy to do it that way too.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. I think what you're saying is what we basically agree
with. With the RFP's and rather than throwing out a dollar f.igure at them and
absorbing all those dollars. I think we have to look specifically at what some
of those needs are and discussing that also with the Senior Commission, and I've
been reading those Mlnutes as well. To determine how best to utlllze those
dollars. Just like you mentioned about those who were playing cards over at the
school. There too, flnd out what those needs are. What are they specifically
looking for because it's hard to just throw out a dollar here and a dollar
there. So I thlnk if we do do that and make that recommendation of the
reallocation of the Years XVI and XVII block grant funds to transfer that
$3,000.00 from the Year XVII funds to the Year XVI for the Sojourn Senior Day
Care Center and I think that's what you're basically looking for at this tlme.
And also then to make that request for proposal as you've indicated.
Councilman Wing: I'll second that.
Mayor Chmlel: Any other discussion?
Councilwoman Oimler: Yes. That was exactly my intent and I guess it didn't
come right out in the Mlnutes elther but I had sald that I dld not object to
having a study done. I objected to the $26,000.00 being spent for a study and I
suggested $10,000.00 but I pulled that out of the air. But whatever and I like
the idea of taking bids for and then we chose the lowest bid of qualified people
of course and then the rest of the money could go to programming and that's what
I wanted to find out if we could do that.
Paul Krauss: We could sure glve ita shot.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. That is legal? That money doesn't have to be spent
for the study then?
Paul Krauss: Oh no. Not at a11. It's dedicated ina fund that's unnamed
senior programming.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. That was our concern last time. That we wouldn't,
was it one of these where you have to spend it on this or you'd lose it?
Paul Krauss: You have to spend it by December 31st or get another contract
before December 31st.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, but it didn't say you had to spend it specifically.
Paul Krauss: No.
City Council Meoting --June 10. 1.991
Councilwoman Oim].e'r: Senior something.
Paul Krauss~ An eligible senior program.
Councilwoman Oimler: Okay great. See that was our question.
Mayor Chmie.l.: We have a motion on the floor, any other discussion?
Resolution ~91-56: Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the
reallocation of Years X¥I and X¥II Block Grant Funds to transfer $3,000.00
from Year XVIZ funds to Year XVI for the Sojourn Senior Day Care Center,
$3,000.00 to Year XVII and $23,112.00 of Year XVI funds to undertake senior
programming. The City Council also directs staff to send out Requests
for Proposals to complete senior housing and senior center feasibility studies
for the city. These RFPs are not to contain any city estimates of cost or
availability of funds. A].i voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
KURUER'S POINT ADDITION.
Mayor Chmiel: Next item is 3.75, Kurver's Addition. Tom with your discussion
as you brought up, would you like to further that?
Coul~cilman Workman: I don't know if I should attempt to explain it or maybe 3o
Ann and Paul should. I'll give it a quick shot. We had some Minutes and I
guess we can all take blanle. It does get a 11ttle confusing in the Minutes.
Tile Minutes kind of seem to come out a little bit different than the Kurver'$
remembered and we had a lot of discussion on the cul-de-sac or not the
cul-de-sac and then when it got down to some fine tuning with the road, and who
should be paylng for the road improvements, etc. that's where it seemed to have
some probl~em.s. In a letter to Mr. Harri of Van Doren-Hazard--Stallings from
I be].leve 3o Ann. Jo Ann. The new 1tern number i said, the applicant shall
receive a new access permit for the existing access to TH 101 from MnDot and
shall provide and pay for any and all improvements. Any and all belng
emphasized by me. Required by the City for the existing access to Kurver's
point. There's another sentence there. What we talked about, well the Kurver's
are having a problem getting any kited of bonding due to the fact that it says
any and all because in effect the State or the Clty could say whatever it takes
and whatever we want, you're going to put that intersection on TH 101 alld
there's some problems wlth that. We talked about posslbly just saying the
applicant shall receive a new access pernlit for the existlng access to TH 101
· From MnDot perlod. And/or pulling it out. You know maybe just pu].l that out
and work with it later but then we are~'t sure how that's all tied in. Paul can
maybe do some explaining. Because it's klnd of, they know they need to get some
things done. W~; all know that MnDot staff and the Kurver's got to meet and talk
about what's required in relationship to State Statutes. What would be requlred
because that's kind of fuzzy. And everybody's getting back different ldeas from
Mr, Dot what's suppose to happen and by leavlng it open that way, they cannot
proceed because they're going to be basically saylng we'll pay for whatever and
we don't know whatever is yet. So I don't know how we would modify it or if we
call modify th~s tonight.
Mayor Chmiel: I think we can.
City Council Meeting - June 10, 1991
Councilman Workman: By saying there's all sorts of questions about intent in
the Minutes and everything else. My intent was to kind of, was not to leave it
open and not to, I guess to turn it around and say okay. Staff and MnDot, find
out what we need to do and really it's between the applicant and MnDot and
that's.
Hayor Chmiel: Paul.
Paul Krauss: Well, if I could clarify it a little bit. We understand how the
language, the any and all language can be a problem for a lender. That's pretty
open ended and we don't have a problem changing that around. You're going to
get a chance to review this and whatever is worked out under the final plat so
you will have ultimate authority to approve what you like. This came up earlier
this evening and I've been thinking about it a little bit since then. I don't
have a problem with the intent I guess of what's being proposed. I mean
certainly we can change that language about the any and all. There is one
question or one concern I have with leaving it solely in the province of HnDot.
If I can touch on that very briefly and then you can do what you're going to do.
One of the things that we talked about at the meeting is the problem that we've
had over the 7ears with MnDot basically not really caring about what happens
to TH 101. Or really not setting a standard that's consistent with what we'd
like to see there to accommodate future needs. You talk-to different people at
MnDot at different times, you'll get different answers. I mean we've talked to
some people who back up what we're saying and Scott Harri has talked to some
people who've backed up what he's saying. It's very tough to pin MnDot down on
requiring anything of an improvement to TH 101. I mean their premise since the
1930's is they were going to dump it on somebody so they haven't spent a whole
lot of effort improving it. We want to go ahead and have our meeting with
MnDot. We'll certainly schedule that as soon as possible and hopefully that
will be productive and that will be the end of it. Honestly, if MnDot though
comes back and says everything's just hunky dorey. There's really no issue at
all, I'd want that demonstrated to our satisfaction because right now I honestly
don't believe it. If we think that there are some requirements there or some
improvements that can really improve safety there, we'd like to come back to you
with the final plat and say well we disagreed with MnDot on that but here's what
they said and you can decide for yourselves what you think is really
appropriate. I don't want to color your thinking about MnDot at a11. It's just
that we've had a tough time with them on this highway and based upon that I'm a
little cautious.
Councilman Workman: I'd like to quickly interject and I don't see the Kurvers
here and maybe that's good. This intersection compared to all the other
intersections of TH 101. We're going to, MnDot's going to spend some money to
do Choctaw and Sandy Hook. Right turn lanes. Wish they could do Cheyenne.
Okay, they're paying for that with our help. Now here comes Kurvers Point and
they're kind of being told now you have to redo this whole intersection here.
Okay, now if you go back up Pleasant View Road, Choctaw, Sandy Hook, Cheyenne
and then Kurvers, now the Kurvers, and granted MnDot doesn't want to have TH
101. We know that. But now the Kurvers are belng told you've got to redo this
whole intersection when Herb wasn't told to do Chan Estates or whatever. Or how
much I don't know. Further complicating that ls Valley Vlew Road, which makes
the intersection much more heavy than all the rest of those intersections I just
mentioned. That lsn't the Kurvers problem but it makes that intersection
City Council Meeting - June .tO, 1991
u11iqu~.. Now should those 50 ilomes ir, there be responsible 'for all the traffic
there and rlortl~ and :south? l'i~,~l, was kind o'[ their question and I'm sure they
would take 15 minutes to explain that. So 'that's why they're concerned about
wl~y they flare to now, perhaps ba~ed on pa~t conditions that said tha~ ~econd
access, you're going to have to take that hill down, which I'm sure they had
some confusion about why they had to take the hill down too there as far as
cost. So the intersection is kind of different. How much are they, even though
they've in the past when the First Addition went in, they did dedicate land
there for the intersection and no~ they're being asked again to upgrade and
everything else and they waist to know if they have thL8 many home~, doe~ that
mean they've got to upgrade the ~hole inter~ection op not. ~nd that'8 where the
co~ fursiOll comes.
Hayer Chmiel: I 9uess I don't see that cost that's born by them for that
particular intersection. Z think that x number more cars, vehicles coming in
a,d out of 'there is not gol~lg to aake that auch of a d~'fference as far as the
en(rance onto Tti 101 and P~.tlll's right. NnDot has not real COl'~Cerl] ~hat's
happening ~ith TH 101. They'd like to get rid of it. Push it off on the
counties or tl~e cities as they've done in Hellnepin County through Plymouth and
Wayzata and areas a~:; such. Maybe if we had discussions with MnDot, whoever ~e
have a discussion with, I might make a suggestion that upon finalization of
that, for you to send a letter back to them confirming Four discussion with them
and the interpretation therefrom and hopefully that they would, if a response is
not provided within a 5 day period, that that's the way it stands. ~ think
maybe ue can eliai~l,'~te some of those gJ. Vel~ col~cerns. Or at least hopefully ue
can. Okay Don.
Don Ashworth' I was going to mention. Councilman ~orkman's absolutely correct.
Some of the el_der subdivisions &n that area did not have to pay. Colonial
Grove, etc.. The newer ones, say within the last 5 to ~0 years, Z believe all
have p~i.d_ Pe. te~' Pflaum paid off of Pleasant View. Fox Hollow paid and I know
that the Ce.Ionia1, South Lotus Lake, those were both widened and those were
charged to a].]. the lots witllin that subdivision.
CoL~ncJ. lmarl Workman: Don my point was that the Kurvers already did dedicate and
pay for al~d l>robat)ly no~ they're upgrading and they're trying to figure out with
how inuch of an upgrade, how much more responsibility do they have to have 'for
thi.s specific; intel'section. Zt doesn't fit. Zt doesn't even weigh because
they've already dedicated what they clalmed was $56,000.00 in p'roperty for the
£1~t~;rsection. And keep in mind Eden Prairie's on the other side with Valley
Vlew Road but Z don't know the hlstory of a].l the.
[.ion Ashworth: I had talked with Mol as well and I thought we had agreement
~bout a week ago to go through the process of having his engineer meet with our
engineer and the State and try to determine what are we talking about. Are we
talking about $50.00, $5,000.00 or $50,000.00. At that point in time we can
come b,~ck and s;~y okay, it's not reasonable that you would have to pay costs on
the Eden Prairie side but if they're saying, if the existing turn is not really
adequate, then maybe Mel should. You know until we really know what we've
totally got, I'm hesitant to say jump on one band wagon or another.
Mayor Chmie].: Lei. me ask you a quick question in reference to wl~a~ you're
making with each of those new developments that went in. That was an upfront
10
City Council Meeting - June lO, 1991
cost number one right?
Don Ashuorth: Uery similar to what we're talking about here.
Mayor Chmiel: For the expansion of the particular project as well?
Don Ashworth: They were required to pay the additional cost. If I remember
correctly, the only improvements that were done on any one of those were on the
Chanhassen side. I know of no improvement that was done on the Eden Prairie
side. But in each of those instances they did put in a deacceleration lane and
an acceleration lane. So again, if you go to South Lotus Lake boat access area,
that's a fairly long acceleration/deacceleration on both of those accesses.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright. Any other discussion? Tom?
Councilman Workman: No. Are we going to, can we make the change or can't we
Roger? Should we?
Roger Knutson: You can. The decision whether you should is obviously up to
you.
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe what we should do Tom is to.
Councilman Workman: My only question is this. If we change this or water this
down or move this and they're allowed to go ahead with the project, then do we
lose ali rights? I know staff is worried about that. Then we lose all rights
to have them approve even an iota of the intersection which God forbid if we
lose...to keep people under our thumb.
Mayor Chmiel: I think ue have a solution to it.
Roger Knutson: Perhaps if you modified it to the extent that it's saying when
costs are known, that information is to be brought back to the Council to make a
decision. Then you have ail the facts and you can decide if it's appropriate.
Councilman Workman: Okay. But we'll know all the costs but then ue don't know
what percentage is Kurvers or the State or other. That's the open end.
Don Ashworth: But you could make that decision. If you make a decision that no
one else paid on the Eden Prairie side, that would be back to you.
Mayor Chmiel: I think if ue had their engineer, our engineer and HnDot, that
determination can be made.
Councilman Workman: Okay, but if we make the sentence, the applicant shall
receive a new access permit for the existing access to TH 101 from MnDot, then
the applicant and MnDot are maklng a declslon whlch they should and they can
fight over the cost, Does the State have leverage?
Mayor Chmiel: Well I would think, sure the State has leverage in their
determination as to whether or not a safety issue is there. Don't you think?
11
CJ.~.y Council Heeting - Jul~e i0, J99!
Don Ashworth: hgain Jt gets back to a point Paul brought out. They put all the
driveways right onto TH 101 across whatever, what are they duplexes in there?
Hayer Chmiel: Yes.
Don Ashworth: Those never should have gone ill. I mean it should have been one
common access, z guess I'd like to again see the suggested improvements and the
cost associated with those come back to you and if you feel that it's
unreasonabIe that Hel and Frank should bear x amount of it or y amount of it,
you could make that determination but until we know what those costs are and
what the scope of the .improvements that are being suggested are, I think it's
hard to make.
CoLmcilman Workman: I guess I'm just not sure that it's our job to decide on
that State Iqighway, but maybe it is.
Mayor Chmiel: I think from a standpoint that there is involvement back to the
tit>, and t l~o City has to pick up those costs, I wouldn't be of course for that.
Councilman Workman: It's not our problem. It's not our road.
Don Ashworth: It probably will be.
Hayer Chmiel: At some time. Only by legislation.
Councilman Workman: You know what I'm saying? All I'm saying is on Hay 6th we
approved this for them. There's been some confusion and I'll take partial
credit for that because I don't think I clarified everything at the end on what
we wanted to do. It's been, now it's tile lOth of June. They are unable to do
anything until we get this tiling going and I'm trying to make it a little easier
for them to get accomplished what 'they're trying to do ultimately.
Paul Krauss: If I can make a suggestion? You know Hel seemed to, there are two
issues here with him. One was the any and all improvements language which is
causing them money with their lender. That you can either eliminate. Just
str~ke it or put in they shall pay their fair share of improvements that are
required.
Councilman Workman: As determined by HnDot?
Paul Krauss: Well, see I'm a little concerned with that.
Councilman Mason: I don't know why we're always throwing MnDot in this. If we
can work it out with 3, let's just go with that and be done with it.
Paul Krauss: I think we can take care of their short term need to work with
their financer and then work out the details and come back to you and the
Count11 can declde what's needed over there. It may well also be real
appropriate for us to bring in Jean Oeitz from Eden Prairie. I mean this is
more than half their prob].em and see if we can work out something wlth them as
well.
12
City Council Meeting - June 10, 1991
Councilman Wing: Did Hr. Ashworth say that there was a meeting planned or going
to be between the engineers of all the parties and might this be resolved at
that point?
Don Ashworth: I hope it to be and their engineer told me at the end of last
week that they were prepared to meet with the City. He didn't give me a date
though. I don't know. Do you know?
Charles Folch: No, I hadn't heard a date either but he was going to coordinate
the meeting and then get back to us.
Councilman Wing: I agree with Mr. Workman's concerns and I thought we left them
kind of hanging in a nebulous area but might this meeting resolve Tom's concerns
and the problem we're talking about?
Don Ashworth: I would hope so. I mean I sincerely believe that last Wednesday
or Thursday when Mel had called and we started coordinating with the State and
what not, that we were almost done with the issue at that point so I was kind of
surprised this evening.
Councilman Wing: Would you consider tabling this pending the staff report
directly on this issue?
Councilman Workman: Well, according to Paul we can strike it. If we can strike
it with the condition that the details be worked out by the engineers because
you know what happens when you try to get a meeting with MnDot and everybody
else. It will be the end of June. I don't think it's fair.
Mayor Chmiel: Sure. I think that would be the resolving portion of having all
three sitting down and working it out. And then once that determination is
made, bring it back to Council.
Councilman Workman: So I guess the motion would be to change number 1 of the
new conditions. The applicant shall receive a new access permit for the
existing access to TH 101 from MnDot. The applicant shall work with his own
engineer, MnDot, City of Eden Prairie and City of Chanhassen to decide.
Paul Krauss: What, if any improvements are going to required for the
intersection.
Councilman Workman: And what costs should be attributed to the applicant.
Paul Krauss: Right. Recommended cost sharing.
Mayor Chmiel: That sounds reasonable.
second?
Any other discussion? Is there a
Councilwoman Oimler: Second.
13
City (:o~[nc~.l ;ic(:t[l~g -.'JU~le 1(). 1991
council.man Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to clarify the motion
made on May 6, 1991 for Kurvers Point Addition to change condition 1 to read:
The applicant shall receive a new access permit for the ex/sting access to
TH 101 from MnOot. The applicant shall work with his own engineer, MnBot,
City of Eden Prairie and city of Chanhassen to decide what, if any
improvements are going to required for the intersection and what costs
should be attributed to the applicant.
All voted in favor and tile motion carried unanimously.
ACCEPT FEASIBILITY STUDY TO UPGRADE HINNEWASHTA PARKWAY AND CALL FOR PUBLIC
HEARING, PROJECT 90-15.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Bill Engelh~rdt
[)ave tteadla
Court HacFarlalle
Grog Datillo
JoAnn Hallgren
Engelhardt and Associate:~, Project Engineer
6870 Minnewashta Parkway
3800 Leslee Curve
7201 Juniper Avenue
6860 Minnewashta Parkway
Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. As I'm sure you are aware,
tl~.i.s proposed improvement project is a rather sizeable one with many details and
e.]ements associated. A great deal of data and information related to existlng
.sito conditions, state Aid standards, traffic .studies, soil report and resident
input has been collected, discerned and incorporated into thls feasibility
study, The project engineer, 8ill Engolhardt ill cooperation with City staff has
fornlulated a project that addresses the relevant concerns of both the Clty and
affocted property owners yet is economically feasible. The total project cost
is e~tlmated to be approximately 2.1 mi111on dollar~ funded by a combination of
State Ald Funds, General Obligation Bonds, Trunk W~termain Fund~ and special
assessment~. Tile proposed unit assessment rate ls approximately $1,250.00. I
would therefore recommend that tile feasibility report for improvements to
Minnewa~hta Parkway Project 90-15 be accepted. In my report I had originally
'recommended c~l].ing for a public hear£ng for the June 24th meeting. However,
wlth prevlous discussions ~.~arller tonlght it appears that the meetlng has been
postponed until July 8th. However I should point out that I will be ol~t of town
for that July 8th meeting.
Councilman Wing: Why didn't you speak up?
Charles Folch-' I didn't hear it until it was all done. At any rate, Bill
whenever the meuting is docided to be scheduled will give a formal presentation
of the feasibility report at that publlc hearing. Whatever date you shall
choose to decide, on. However, he is present tonight to answer any specific
quest i. ons on the report that you may have.
Mayor Ch[niol: Are there ally questions from Council? Let me just back up a real
q:~ick. I see the Kurvers have just walked in. We've come up wlth a conclusion
14
City Council Meeting - June 10, 1991
on what we had looked at and we've discussed your position already and we'll be
glad to talk to you about it after ue get done here this evening. Okay, we'll
move on. 8i11, do you want to just go over thl8 just a 11ttle bit more? I know
that from what we previously looked at, I'd like you to discuss the road width
from what it was previously to what it is considered now. To what the
assessments were previously and to what they are now and a few of the other
incidentals that are there.
Bill Engelhardt: Your honor, as part of the feasibility study we undertook a
little bit different direction in putting the study together. We included an
executive summary up front which lays out all of the issues that were discussed
at the two homeowner or neighborhood meetings that we had. Very good attendance
at those meetlngs and a lot of good lnput. It was really a good process to go
through for this particular project. A major consideration that we have that
came out of the homeowners meetlng ls that the new roadway wldth would be
reduced from 36 feet, which was originally proposed, down to 32. We dld go out
and remeasure the street out there and on the north end of the Mlnnewashta
Parkway we're looking at an existing 28 foot mat. Oown by the TH $ intersection
for about 1,000 feet lt's 22 so it does vary from 22 to 28. The majorlty ls 28.
What thls means is that there will be 6 inches of additional bituminous from
what you see right now plus the curb and gutter. So the roadway wldth has been
substantially reduced from what was originally proposed and this has been worked
out with MnDot that they would accept the 32 foot roadway. The walkway
alignment.
Mayor Chmiel: The existing roadway presently as it stands is 28 now?
Bill Engelhardt: 28 and 22. The first 1,000 feet from TH 5 north is Z2 feet
wide and then from that point on it widens out and goes 28 all the way up to
TH ?. It varies in and out of there but the majority of it is 28 right now.
The walkway alignment, some of the concerns that the neighborhood had was they
didn't like the cross over. We had proposed a cross over in the project. In
the final design we had proposed that that would be on one side. We'd stay on
one side. The perferrable side would be the east side at this time but that
would have to be looked at very closely during final design. Additional storm
drainage problems were identified from the neighborhoods up there and those
would be incorporated in the final plans if the project went ahead. There were a
number of problems up there that were corrected and. the neighborhood brought
forth additional problems that we incorporated into the feasibility study. The
assessment rate was reduced from $2,340.00 down to $1,250.00 per unit and that
was reduced based on using General Obligation Bonds for past policy projects
where 50~ of the storm sewer has been paid for by the City. Anything that was
paid for with General Obligation Bonds in the past, we've put that lnto the
General Obligation part of the project and we are able to bring the assessments
down. One reason for that also for bringing the assessments down is that we're
trying to compare previous State Aid projects to this State Aid Project and
there wasn't an equity in there. As an example, Bluff Creek had large lots.
They paid about $2,200.00 and we were trying to make a comparison but the
comparison just didn't fit right after we looked at it because people in
Minnewashta Parkway have smaller- lots and that was one reason for bringing the
assessment down also. We reduced the raw land area assessment unit calculations
from 3 units per' acre down to 1.8 units per acre. This was looking at all of
the properties up in the area. Taking into account the wetlands. Taking that
15
out of ally assessmer,'t art:a. Only the useable, b[iildable ].and would be assesoed
at the 1.8 ,~nd because of the wetlands and the nature of the ~rea, they have to
have larger lots up there. You just aren't able to get the 3 units. The 1.8,
w~ wou.]_d be ab].e to fit 1.0 units per acre on developa~ble land~ That also takes
out 'r'igi,t~of-uay. If you're going to build a road, if you had let's say a 5
acre tract you aisc subtract out the right-of--way. You stil), could get 1.8
acres or 1.8 unJ. ts per acre and if yo~i look at that, it's about 22,000 square
foot lots. That's a pretty good s~zed lot. The City of Victo;'ia, 6haries
and ~ met with VJc[oria. ~ttended one of their 6ouncil meetings and went
through the whole program with them. They ~ere receptive and passed a
~',~so].utlon to work wi(h the Ci(y of 611anhassen to do a land sump as part of (he
anllex~t~on process. They really didn't have a problem with J.t. They were not
interested in paying for any part of the road costs and [hey realized ihat they
didn't have the funds, the State ~ld funds to pay for the road cost and if we
can work something out with them to sump land, they would be agreeable to that.
As I mentioned ea¥1~er, the utltlzatlon of GeneraJ Obligation Bonds. ge added
that lnto the project to help finance it and that being consistent with all past
policies uher¢¢ ce~'t,'zJ.n portions of the project had previo~1sly been paid for.
Other projects had prev.iously been paid for with General Obligation Bonds.
Total. pT'eject coots w,'~s r'edttced by about $100,000.00 through the process. Still
a signJ, fican'~ project. I~e did reduce the amou]~t of tree removal. Due to the
reduced u~dth of ti~o roadway, we ~il]. be able to save more trees than what we
originally planned. I t hlnk in the biddlng process though ~e would still try to
maintain a high level of repIal~ting so the parkway ends up ,zs a parkway when ue
9et al! done. Several comments focused or, placing a 3 inch bitumlnous overlay
on ~he existing roadwork, ge'ye estimated the cost of that at $~20,000.00. The
problem ulth an over'lay, ~t does not solve the problems that this roadway has.
gr;.~J.I],~,ge problems. It uouidn't solve the drainage problems. It uould create
more drainage problems probably. The subgrade conditions. It wouldn't solve
that. We'd still h;~ve the settlJ, ng and we'd stlll have the soft sells down
~here. ~e'd stilt have alignment problems. ~e'd still have sight distance
problems so in our opinloll, we felt that an overlay was not appropf'iate for this
par'[ict.tlar piece of roadway. The summary of the costs, we're still looking at
using $944,000.00 worth of State ¢~id. The special assessments went down to
$~65,000.00. ~e'd have $477,000.00 worth of 6eneral Obligation Bonds and trunk
funds of approximately $26,000.00 which would make up the 2.~ mi1iion project.
~.~th that Z'(I be happy to answer any questions you might have on i(.
Hayer Chmiel: Before we even get into the questions, maybe there are some of
the residents that are here from Hinnewashta who might like to come up and have
some discussion. If you do, please come forward and state your name and your
address. I want to mention too in looking at the packet, I had provided several
].etters that I have received in opposition to the proposal and Z'm sure that
many of you have also received those copies but I had thought they would be
pla. ced into tile packet and they were~'t .tn here this time.
eon ,qshwor[h'. Tt was staff's intent that if the Council would call for the
public hearing, that we would include a].]. of the correspondence ,zt that point in
time..
.¢.oul~cJ.].man ~ing: Mr. Mayor, can Z jUSt .ask a question prior to that? Not
d.i. scu:;sion polnt. By the tone of the phone calls and the letters I've been
receiving have been rather consistent so I f~lt that there's most likely been
16
City Council Meeting - Julle lO, 1991
some either calling or there's been a letter circulated because the information
has been consistently in error. I have that letter that's going out to the
Hinnewashta Parkway residents here. I would just ask /ow directly as Ha/or of
this City, do you slip things in? Do you steamroller projects? Do you fail to
listen to the residents or ignore them in cases like this?
Hayor Chmiel: I did see that particular letter and it irritated me some.
have to say that because I don't think this Council has been so open as they
have been in any particular project that we've had within this city. Including
our Comprehensive Plan. We had as many as 14 public meetings making sure that
everyone understood it. I feel rather hurt just seeing that indication.pointed
at this Council. And whoever has had that letter, I would personally like to
sit down with them and have them point those things out to me. What we have
been hiding or whatever. The intent is never that here. If you want to see
this Council work open, they have been. We've been very open and we listen to
the people. We're not just here to throw a project in and say go. If it's good
for the City, we have to do it because of the specific reasons and I think one
thing that I feel basically about this proposal is the safety issues contained
on that road. I've sat out there~ I've driven it. I've looked at it. I've
watched people walk on there with their families, their grandchildren, their
children, their grandparents. Whoever. And speeds are a little high on that
road. Safety is an issue with me. I feel strongly about that issue. But
whoever devised that particular letter, Z would really like to sit down and
discuss that with them.
Councilman Wing: Thank you. I did not feel you operated in that manner.
Mayor Chmiel: I never will. Is there anyone wishing to come up and discuss
this?
Dave Headla: My name is Dave Headla. I think you all know me. I'm the fellow
you sent you two letters in one month. I come from the remote western part of
Chanhassen called Minnewashta Parkway. Out there we do feel a little
frustrated. We're not sure that your, or even a good portion of your attention
is pointed at us...you have a lot more people here too. But I was glad to see
you mention safety. That's the main thing I'd like to bring up tonight. In the
feasibility study, at no time did I hear you mention safety. The criteria why
you chose the road, the trail. I'm very concerned about safety. We're of the
understanding you're strongly considering the trail on the east side of the
road. All the way from like King's Point up to TH ?. Is that true? Last night
I stood out on my drlveway and I was watchlng cars come by and I looked to the
left and I looked to the right. My line of sight is roughly 40 yards each
way. I'm rlght on the curve and at 40 yards, that's 120 feet. Now if a car was
going 30 mph, and not many of them do 30 mph, that equals to 45 feet per second.
Now if my 5 year old grandson ls down there, another year he's going to be 6 or
6 1/2. If he was going to cross that road that equates to, he has about 2
seconds to make a declslon to cross that road and get across there before a car
comes. Now 3 seconds roi' a ? year old is lousy and now you want to widen the
road. Maybe it should be wlder. My blg polnt is I do not thlnk that for safety
reasons that trail should be on the east side of the road. The vast majority of
the population is on the west side of the road. Why in the world do you want
to risk all those young people's lives going across there? I don't think you've
got a rlght crlterla to make a decision. I'm asklng you to go back and revisit
City CouncJ]. Me,'-?t.ll~g .-.]u~le 10, 1991
your design criteria and ~a~o'ty. Now if one kid gets p.i. cked off, we haven't
g;.tiI:ed one i:l,'~n.9 tot everything we've put [n I~ei-~-~. Tl',e~ you gave me a little
bit of ur, derstandin9 on that overlay and I don't know. I've really got to think
about th,?~t. Yom'ye got some
over,ay but you've got your design reasons too. But the other one, Z didn't
hear the trai~ d~8cussed and ~hat are you go~ng to, wheat k~nd of tra~]. L~ it now
that
Mayor Chmiel: Would you like to address that Bill'?
8il] [..'ngelhard[.'. Sure. We looked at both types of trails. Both bituminous and
concrete and the, decj. s.[on u~s made 1:o present in the feasibility study to the
City council for their consideration a concrete trail. Based on cost between
tl~ concrc'Le a~d the bituminous be.trig very comparable. Because on the
h~tttmJ, nous trail you can't .just lay down a 2 inch or 3 inch bituminous Bat onto
clay :~llrf.lce you h;&ve to build a base for it. So by the time you build a base
and then you put the bituzinous on, you get very close to being comparable to
tl~e cost of co~,crete. Tl~e otl~e'r consider at ioil we looked a~ to recommend to the
Council concrete was a maintenance J. te~. ~e felt that with concrete we would
h.':tve ].ess mail,tenants. It would be more durable and longer lasting. Now if, I
kno~ there had beel~ some comments that bituminous would be desirable, both from
~ watkZl~g stai~dpo.tnt and f'UIIllillg standpoZnt. Th,~t's cef'taility a Counc~Z
decision and if you direct us to incorporate a bltumLnous trail, ir, the plans, we
certaZnly woutd do l:h;tt. W¢~ arel~'t to that poJ. nt yet in preparing the final
ptans. So that can still be done. That issue is still up. Those are the
reasons Z presel~ted concrete and Ls certa.tnly a Coulee1]. decZsion which way to
go.
Hayor Chm.iel: Do YOU h~tVe any ideas as to cost difference betueen cubic yard of
concrete ;.ts opposed to bi. tUmil~OUS?
gJ].]. Engelhardt: You're looking for the sidewalk about $1.75 a square foot.
8i~,ninous i~ abouL $1.55..$1.65. It de. pelMe on wh,:.~t the bids and what the oil
pr'ices will. be.
Counc.tlman Workman: What's the lifespan?
Bi].i Engelhardt: Well bituminous, what you'll find in bituminous is that you're
goin~.~ to have to 9o tl~ro~gh and probably 4 or .5 years down the road do some
sealcoating and that type o'f thJ. ng to keep the trail up to par. There's pros
and cons for both of them. Concrete will crack so we're going to have some
cracking out there and we're going to have some settling. Bituminous ls
flexible so 'flexibility .(s nice sometimes when you're looki,g at the tra11. ~hat
you could do, it's nice to t,ave a specific item in your biddlng so you can get a
specific cost on it but what you could do in this particular case is bid an
alternate. You could bid cormcrete or bituminous as your base and then have an
alteri~ate b.i.d for either' one of them and then wl~en it came to the time to award
the bld, uhJ. chever one had the best cost. If there was a substantial difference
between the concrete and bituminous where we could make up our cost for
maintenance, theli He should do b$tu~Jnous. ~nd that's possible to do &n both
¢znd see which om~e comes 111 at the best cost.
18
City Council Heeting- June 10, 1991
Dave Headla: I would prefer you make your decision on being user friendly. We
use it. I've been on concrete and I've been on asphalt and concrete just beats
you up something terrible. I don't care if you're walking or runnlng. Blklng
it isn't so critlcal but concrete is really tough on the body.
Bill Engelhardt: Yeah, I have no problem really from an engineering standpoint
whether you use the concrete or bituminous. Again we based our decision on the
long term maintenance of it.
Dave Headla: And on the width of the tra11, the rationale at one tlme was that
you want it wide enough so you can put a vehicle on there to plow the snow. Are
you st111 along that philosophy?
Bill Engelhardt: The standard in Chanhassen is to go with a 6 foot trail and
the reason for that ls if you put ina 5 foot trall you wlnd up, when you take
your plows or whatever you use to maintain your sidewalks with Bobcats, they
have about a 6 foot bucket on them and you always rlp the sldes up and you're
constantly going back and repairing the sod. $o ue try to stick with a 6 foot
trail. That glves them just that 11ttle blt of flexibility in there so if
they're not quite on center line, that they don't tear it up during the winter
time. If ue go to bituminous, then we need to do elther a 6 foot trail or an 8
foot trail. The reason for that is your pavers that they use to put down the
bituminous are 6 and 8 and if you start to deviate, the cost is golng to go way
up.
Dave Headla: 6 foot, I think that sounds very realistic. I'd like to see that.
Then another one, I'm right on Hinneuashta Parkway. Now we've been out there
over 30 years. We were part of Chanhassen Township before we ever associated
with the Council here. We had a road down to the lake and we've driven down
there for over 30 years. I'm not as young as these two Todd's here who can go
up and down stairways but if you put that retaining wall in there, that takes
our driving priviledge down to the lake away, as with many other people. Now
what you're really doing is saying that we don't care about you older people.
You're going to have to go and take the steps. How do you respond to that?
Bill Engelhardt: I guess I respond is that's not the intent at all. We're
planning on bulldlng a retaining wall. There's no question about that but I
think in the homeowners meetings we also indicated at both meetings that people
that have properties and have access, that we have to malntaln those. We have to
slope those walls to make sure that you can get down there.
Dave Headla: Drive down there?
Bill Engelhardt: If you have a driveway, there isn't going to be a problem with
the retaining wall. There are some very steep areas in there where people are
building steps now. That's going to be the problem area. The driveways, I
don't see that as being a problem from an engineering standpoint. We do have a
problem trying to step them down where they have the ualkways. It's very steep
in there. If you can drive there right now, we can build something that you can
st111 drlve off of.
Dave Headla: Well, being pretty confident.
19
City Coui'~cil Meetincj - June 10, ].991
Bill EngeJ. hardt~ I'm very confident. You've 9ot to give me a lJ. ttle bit.
Dave Headla: Well you know you're an engineer and being an englneer I'm always
a 11ttle leery, okay, Lhank you for listening.
Councilman Wing: What about the trail on the west side?
Hayor Chmiel: Yeah. That hadn't been addressed.
Bill Engelhardt: We looked at both sides of the road and originally the reason
ue shifted it back and forth is that we were trying to pick up the majority of
the property owners and ifyou look at the north end of the project where ue made
the shift. We were shifting it over to the Stratford Woods side which is on the
west side and then after that big subdivision came in, as it would come in on
the east side south of Stratford Woods. The ma.iority of the land on the east
side is vacant or is wetlands so we felt that more of the property owners were
on the east side of the trail. That's why we made the shift. Now if ue can
maintain it and pull it over' to the east side all the way along, we are going to
lose a majority of the property owners having direct access up in the Stratford
Wood area. But ue felt from the comments of the neighborhood where they did not
want any crossovers whatsoever~ that we would sacrifice that end and pull that
to the east side.
Dave Headla: Plerce, ourselves and Wenzel's next door, we all preferred to have
the trail on the west side. Yeah, it's going to cut into what we have there but
for safety ue really thlnk that's the way to go.
Bill Engelhardt: The trail is going to be within an existing right-of-way.
Dave Headla; Rlght. 8ut we'll have a bank there and like Wenzel's said. It
really cuts into tl~at bank. They realize that and they sald they still would
prefer it that way.
Bill Engelhardt: Well we can look at that. This has been coming out in the
homeowners. One group wants it on one side and one groups wants it on the other
slde. The best thlng Z can tell you ls that we'll use our best engineering
judgment on it and design the plans, if the Councll goes ahead wlth lt, and we
w111 have one more meetlng before the plans go out for bld for you to review it
and we can address some of those concerns at that time. But at some point in
tlme we've got to make a decision. Either it's all golng to be on one side or
we're going to make a crossover'.
Dave Headla: Yeah, I agree with you. I think that's the way. What I'm
concerned about is the criteria used to make your decision and you know our
property is going to be developed. There's I don't know how many acres are
going to be developed within 10 years or so. There's going to be small kids
there and they're going to be golng across the road if the trall's across the
road. That's quite significant. The other- thlng I didn't quite understand is
you're [rylng to save trees. From Kings Road up to Pleasant Acres, if you put
the trail on the west slde, 5 major trees would come out. If you put it on the
east slde, Z counted over 20 that were golng to be destroyed and some of them
are oaks on our property and then to the north.
2O
City Council Meeting -- June 10, 199i
Bill Engelhardt: We can certainly look at that again.
Dave Headla: If you'd come out, I'd like to do a tree count with you.
Bill Engelhardt: I'd be more than happy.
Dave Headla: Okay, thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: One other question comes to my mind Bill. Because of the concern
of the area, had we looked at all seeing if there's a potential area for a stop
sign?
Bill Engelhardt: To answer your question directly, no. We did not look for a
stop sign. We certainly can do that. If we're using the stop sign to control
speed, it's not recommended.
Mayor Chmiel: I'm looking at it from a safety aspect.
Bill Engelhardt: From a safety aspect we would have to, I thlnk that you need
to the roads coming onto the collector street which we are doing already. But
to try to put a stop sign in the mlddle of that roadway, I don't thlnk there's a
real good spot for it and if you do that, you're going to run the risk of
creatlng a blgger safety issue than not having the stop sign because people wlll
tend not to use the stop sign. A pedestrian will be counting on the stop sign.
You know that the car's going to stop but the traffic ls going to get used to
not stopping. They're going to roll through it and then you've got more
potential for problems.
Mayor Chmiel: What you're saying basically is a stop sign wouldn't be
suggested? Other kinds of signs, Caution, Children within the Area.
Bill Engelhardt: Those signs would be part of the project. We would sign this
as a State Ald road and put the appropriate signs and the curve slgns. Right
now there's, I don't even know if there's a speed 11mlt slgn out there. You
need to slgn that appropriately. Put in the curves and all that and the sharp
curve and whatever but those slgns have to be placed.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Yes sir.
Court MacFarlane: My name is Court MacFarlane. I live at 3800 Leslee Curve
which is part of the Pleasant Acres development. It sounds like an echo
chamber. Some of the concerns that Dave Headla was talklng about are the same
ones that I was going to talk about. He addressed them and I'd just 11ke to
expand on them a 11ttle bit. One ls certainly the slope along there that runs
along the road. The right-of-way, Z don't know how wide it is.
Charles Folch: 66 feet.
Court MacFarlane: 66 feet. The current alignment of the roadway, does it runs
in the center of the right-of-way?
Bill Engelhardt: It's very close to the center.
21
City Council Meeting -- June 10, 1991
Cottrt Ma(':Farlane: Okay. so there's an awful lot of it that still, goes toward
the lake then?
Bill Enge!hardt: That's right.
Court HacFarlane: The slope that's along there contains all awful lot of very
mature trees. ~ lot of oak trees and I have a real concern for that because if
they sta'rt to rip into that and tl~en have to build a retaining wall, they're
going ~o be disturbing tile foots of a lot of, not just the trees that they're
going to be taking out to construct the roadway but they're also going to
d.i,~,turb the roots of the mature oaks that a're along there. ~nd in most cases
whel~ you do that or you compact the soil on top of them, you're going to kill
those trees. It might not happen right away but they're going to die off in a
year or ~.wo and that's a real concern. If you look at Hinnewashta Parkway right
now, it 'really ~.,; a parkway. ~hen you look at 'the trees that are on both sides
of thr; road. I don't know how you're going to align 6 foot trail and 32 foot
roadway with space inbetween the 'two I assume and come up with anything that
would save many of the trees that are along there. That is a real concern
I have. Now from the standpoint of safety, to expand on that part of it as
well, stop signs may not be feasible yet when you improve a roadway like what
you've got right now, you're creating another channel for traffic to go from TH
5 to TH ? or vice versa. Right now Ro~ling ~cres Road and TH 41 are the only
two main crossing points between those two highways as you're coming in from
either Victoria or St. Boni. I think people would have the tendency to look for
the one that's probably best aligned. If you look at the three of them,
Minneuashta Parkway is actually more of a direct access froln TH 5 to TH ?.
Rolling ~cres runs, if you come off of T~I 5 onto it, you're actually further
west when you get up to TH 7. And you've got a 30 mph speed limit there, T.
don't know how you're going to slow the traffic down unless you have some type
of controls. EJ. ther stop signs. I don't know wilat else you can do. But if we
don't have any controls on it, I can see that becoming the speedway and safety
problems becoming even worst.
Hayor Chmiel.'. ~lopefully what we're looking at right now is through some
education within] tile City. Making people aware a~ to what the speed8 they're
driving. There',.~ a new radar kind of, well it's probably about 3 feet wide and
maybe ~l feet hlgll. This J.s something, well let me just back up a bit. I have a
lot of concerns, not only on Minnewashta Parkway but also on our downtown 78th
Street. I've beel~ lookillg into a couple different things that can provide
information to the general public regarding their speeds. T'm not one to say
pul. poli~e ou[ there and start writing t~ckets. T_ don't think 1t's the way to
go but if I can have ~his digital kind of miles per hour and it indicates just
settil~g right, on tile center median or off to tile side or on top of a police car,
it wJ. ll read out exactly what speed you're goJ. ng.
Court HacFarlane~ Can yOU see it?
Mayor Chmiel: You bet. You can see it from a distance. I happened to have
seen it myself. I was in a 30 mph zone and I was going exactly 32 mph and it's
a great reminder because now I'm becoming more aware as to what speeds I'm going
~ specJ, fic areas.
22
City Council Meeting - June 10, 1991
Court MacFarlane: I think the people that live in the area are aware of the
speed limits and I think they're more aware of them because they do see the
chlldren and people out on the roadway. The people I'm concerned wlth are the
people that don't live in the area that are just using it as a transit to get
from one place to another and they find this to be a very convenient, very quick
way to get between TH 5 and TH ?.
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe we may have to do some type of enforcement there but 9 out
of 10 times you'll find if you do put enforcement, you're going to be giving
tlckets to people in that speclflc area. We've lowered speeds on one of the
streets in town because lt's windy. Pleasant Vlew and Z$ mph and I followed a
couple cars and watched where they went and they were going more than 25 mph and
believe me they're right from the same area. It really is a state of mind that
they're ln. Where you're going. Whether you're ina hurry or what the
situation is because you just automatically have that lead foot start moving
onto that peddle. Zt's hopefully through some klnd of education that we can
provlde to the people within the City. We can't save them a11. In fact I'm
golng to sitting down wlth MnDot here withln about another 3 weeks and
discussing speeds within our city. I don't know whether we can do anything but
if we've lowered it to 25, people w111 go 30 anyway. Zf you have it at 30 and
they're going 35. Zt's really hard to stop them from doing it.
Court MacFarlane: I had a couple of other comments to make. I was at the
second of the two public hearings that were held, public meetings and there were
probably 200 people in attendance I think from the area. I think the general
tenor of those meetings was not, it may have been characterised as being
positive. To me it sounded like it was pretty negative overall for the project.
I think the concerns, the major concerns were certainly one of cost for people
in the area and not understanding why it was that they would be faced with an
assessment to upgrade a parkway that they didn't feel was really necessary. The
second thing was that there was comments made at the time the study was done
that, and I live in the Pleasant Acres area. That there's access to TH ? in the
back area, back part of our development which talk that that might be closed off
at some time in the future. That affects me particularly because then all the
traffic would come right down my driveway down to Minnewashta Parkway and the
number of homes in there is not lessening. As you know there's another
development in there. There's Shorewood Oaks and there must be another 30-35
lots in there that are now starting to be built. Can anyone enlighten me on if
anything's going to happen to that access to TH 7?
Mayor Chmiel: Bill can.
Bill Engelhardt: I can't give you a specific answer of whether it is or it
isn't. I thlnk what I did indicate at the homeowners meeting that the potential
would be there and the policy of MnDot when they're upgrading TH 7 and it's part
of thelr corridor study they did in 1987, they look at closing accesses along
the hlghway. Now whether they w111 close it or not, they would have a publlc
hearing and you would have input on it and be able to tell them yes or no. Or
at least volce your opinion. General policy ls to close them. At this point
there's no plan in closing them.
Court MacFarlane: Because there's a church in there. Not just the homes in
the area so the traffic in there would also be a lot heavier I think over time.
23
Ci. ty COLtncJ.] MeeLtl~9--June i0, J, 99L
But [here are cle'i'.iniLe].y concern:-:: with cus'L Z know i.o the area residents. Even
though th~.y'ro ~.alking ~bout i.t's b~.en lowered now from '.~2,~00.00 down to
somewher~ around $1,2o0.00. The feeling L~ ~Li~ that that's a lot of money to
pay for ~ road improvement. I ~an te].l you from the ~tandpo~nt at lea~t from
the people in Pleasant ~cres~ they don'~ u~e the parkway that much because we do
i~,:tv~ a circular rout~ i~ our own neighborhood so ~ don't th~nk we'd look that
favorably upon '~t. Tho~c are basically my concerns and some of the one~ from
~u~- area. ~ think t.l~err~ are others but...probably address those in the letter.
Mayor Chmiel~ Tl~ank you. 4nyone el~e?
Greg Oatillo: I'll. Greg []ati].io. I live on 7201 Juniper Avenue. I apologize
for th¢. Ltnwarr,-~n'Led aCCLtsations that a few of my neighbors have made toward you
tho Hayo'r' ~znd the rest of you. I've seen the same letter and you being the
Hayer, no one has ever had so much interest in our area. No other mayor. So
I just want to .Let you k~ow that there are some of us, and I'm going to say the
mdjority BI ns tl~at are very happy with what the City has been doing in trying
to keep us happy, i mean firsL of all with the large road that we narrowed it
down. The assessment. ~hat did you do? Cut it in hal'[. Okay. Now here, some
of the thing:s I just want to see if it's fact or rumor is, the speed zone will
be 45 mph or more.
B J 1). Engelhardt: 30 mph.
Greg Datillo: 30 mph? People will stop using TH 41 and use our residential
road instead.
Bill Enge].hardt: I seriously doubt it because TH 41 is a direct access.
don'( see it happening.
Mayor Chmiel= And that being a 55 mph zone as well.
Greg Oati].lo; The width of the road will double.
Bill Engelhardt; It's being reduced from a proposed 36 foot width to a 32 foot
width. The existing roadway is 28 feet.
Grog Da[illo; The cost is inflated and the City will be making money.
P, ilt Engell~ardt: I don't think so.
Greg Datillo: It's approximately 30~ is what we're paying so the City is paying
~nd the State's p~ying approximately 70~. The assessment with the numbers you
gave. And then the cost of the prelect. 3 milllon ls 2.1 milllon?
Bill Enge].h,'~rdt: Right.
Greg Bari]lo: And then it's another ecological disaster and that.
Rill Engeli~ardt.'. I didn't touch on tile storm sewer. I think we are doing some
good thirlgs wi th !.he storm sewer up there. Right now a majority of the storm
sewer ls being directe, d dil-ectly to Lake Minnewashta. Tile plan that we proposed
in there is that we use settling baslns prior to golng to Lake St. Joe and
24
City Council Heeting - June 10, 1991
taking...to polish or clean it before you release it to Lake Minneuashta. So we
may be, and I shouldn't even use the word sacrifice but we're going to take it
to Lake St. 3ce. Hopefully to preserve Hinneuashta in a high quality. Lake
St. Joe will also be preserved though by using a settling basin and taking the
silts and debris out before ue get it there.
Greg Datillo: Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
3oAnn Hallgren: I'm 3oAnn Hallgren and I live at 6860 Minnewashta Parkway and
I did write everybody a letter but it wasn't the bad one. After I wrote it and
I received a call from two of the Council people and I thank you. I guess I
should have written a letter to the Planning Commission. I had things a little
backwards. 8ut one of my concerns is that, I wonder about the units. Everybody
is being assessed per unit. I have nearly 12 acres and there are a number of
people that are going to be assessed per unit. I was just wondering how many
units did the engineer come up with totally and ballparking my figures, I've
come up with maybe 400 acres or so owned by maybe 20 people. This is just
ballparking because I don't know it all. It seems like we will be paying far
more than our fair share of tile improvements to the road and that's one concern
for me personally.
Bill Engelhardt: In your case Ms. Hallgren, you're classified as Green Acres.
And as a Green Acre classification, we cannot collect an assessment. We can
levy it and defer it so your assessment will be deferred until such time as your
property is developed. The way we've calculated the units was to take developed
property. We subtracted out wetlands, we subtracted out 15% of the raw land
after the wetlands were taken out to accommodate roadways and the balance of
that would be what you could expect to develop as residential property and we
arrived at 1.8 units per acre. So in other words, you could build 2 houses per
acre after taking out the wetlands and the roadways. In your particular 12
acres, we felt that you at some point in time could have 17 possible units. And
again, your property is in Green Acres. That assessment will be deferred until
such time as you see fit to develop the property.
JoAnn Hallgren: Deferred or not, is that going to add that much value to my
property when I sell it? I don't feel that, so I pay for 17 units at, I would
pay $5,000.00. Am I golng to get that out of my land when I sell lt? No. Just
because the parkway is improved.
8ill Engelhardt: I can't address that.
JoAnn Hallgren: Well, that's one of my concerns and I wish the Council would
look at lt. You dldn't tell me how many units in a11.
8ill Engelhardt: 532.
JoAnn Hallgren: And that's the total that's going to be split for the total
cost right?
Bill Engelhardt: That's correct.
25
City Council. H~.etin:-~ --June
3oAnn I.lallgrer,' Thank you.
Mayor Chm.i. el: Thank you. _~s there anyone else? As you were aware, we had some
discussic)ns previously about deferring a pub].ic hearing on this because it was
indicated it would be at our next Council meeting. It won't be until July 7th
if we so choose to proceed with this and make that request.
Councilwoman Dimler: July 8th.
Hayer Chmiel' To have the engineering firm continue with this. So what I'm
going to do now, ulth everyone hopefully sa/lng what they 11ked to have sald.
.5'1] throw it open to Council for discussion. Richard?
Councilman Wing: Would you describe public hearing and a citizen's right at
th,z~, poil~t? Wh;zt is a public hearing mean Don? Could you define that?
Mayor Chmiel= Well a public hearing means that at that particular time it would
e.i. t l~er be a go or a no go.
Col~nCi.lman Wing: Based on our decision at that time?
H¢.~yof' Chmi¢~.l.' Tl~at's correct. And I guess what ue'f'e looking at presently is
whether to proceed wlth ~he feasibility study on it. To accept i~ and put it up
For pLtblic hearing. Ok~y, ~'11 open it up from this end at this particular
time. Ursula?
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess from the first report that I saw to this one, I
].ike the improvements that have been made. Z like the fact the concerns of the
citlzens have been taken lnto account for the most part. I'm really pleased
with that. And _T really wouJ_d like to take the concerns of more citizens. If
[hey have something to say, /. want Lo see them come to this public hearlng. I
know many of them wll). and /. I~ope they're honest with us and I know that this
Coltncll has always taken the concerns of the cltlzens into consideration and
plan to do that in the future.
Councilman Wing: The key issue and the reason we're even discussing this
tonight is safety and tlla~ issue was brought up by the neighborhood and
resJ. dents of that community. This dldn't just come out of thln alt so if there
is a safety issue and if they area concerned about children and the
incompatibility of the vehicle trafflc versus the recreational trafflc, then I
tl~l))k the City Council has to look at that se~'lously. And belng very
knowledgeable of that area and certainly protective of that area and certainly
thinking back to the township days when we had our own little world up there, I
guess that doesn't exist anymore. I guess I'm not going to support putting in
that trail wlth a subsurface road tha~ at some point is going to have to be
redone. I'd hate to be eli[lng on thls Councll the day they declde they have to
do that road after just having spent $?0 , 000 . 00-$80 , 000 . 00 putting in the trail
.so J.f there's a safety issue necessitating the tra11, in my mlnd it's going to
include a road. On the other hand, I'm certainly opell to the fact that
Nlnneuashta Parkway ls not inpassable at thls polnt and it's not emergency.
h,'~w... ~,o troubl(; out there other than whorl ~raffic comes I step into the mud to
get away from the caT'~.~ but you do that in Japan too. It seems to be the way of
life. So access ol] the east or west, I thlnk it's a good point. The two issues
26
City Council Meeting - June 10, 1991
have been brought up. Increased speed and increased traffic. I don't think
either one of those have been shown or justified. I'm not convinced that the
road is going to be widened to the point where it's going to increase traffic.
Nor am I sure that with the curb system that it's going to not in fact actually
decrease speeds because you're not going to have this paved road going off into
these nebulous shoulders. You're either on the road or you're going to hit the
curb so I'm not so sure it's actually not going to decrease speed if anything.
Or control it a little bit better. So those arguments have not held a lot of
water for me because there's no justification elther way. The trees, I think
they're very important and this city is certainly leading the State in tree
preservation and if it can be saved, it w111 be saved. If anybody wants to look
at that map over there, we'll discuss that later tonight but what did they call
us? An hour ahead of the rest of the State but it means the rest of it ls years
behlnd or however but at any rate. And the storm water and the pollution issue
I thlnk ls significant. I thlnk there's a lot to be said. That's golng to cost
money to do that but it's certainly, I'm going to hear what the community says
but I hope the community has an open mind like I'm trylng to have here and I
think we can't convert the assessment into the next year or 2 or 3. I thlnk we
have to force ourselves to look lnto the next 10-15-20 years which ls really
going to be what this is going to serve and that's the difficult position as a
Counc11 and to say I hate to b111 you. Yet on the other hand, we have
responsibility and I'm certainly going to be looking to you for leadership.
Councilman Workman: Well $1,250.00 if that's...an awful lot of money. It's a
most unfriendly decislon that a Council can make. We're going to dlng you for
$1,250.00 and no matter how you look at lt, that's taking away from something
else we could spend it on. Z think Frontier Trail's a good example of a road. I
think Z used to drlve on it faster than Z do now. It seems narrower and the
only difference ls my car doesn't get wrecked because of the bumps and the junk.
Don't everybody drlve down Frontlet Trall touring it tonight but it really lsa
beautiful road now and they're paying for it and it's really tough to weigh all
that out. Z thlnk we're really lucky to have Blll Engelhardt worklng on thls.
Nobody is more sensitive about the water and our concerns and the community's
concerns and the trees and everything else. I feel total confidence in that and
so we're lucky to have you Bill. Maybe because you have that son now... It's
nice to know somebody's out there worklng on our behalf very honestly. Two and
a half years ago before I was elected, when I was elected, I got so many
requests from people like Dave's request. Why aren't you paying attention to
us? Get us some trail. Get us a park. Get us this road. People said fix'this
road to me. The only thing we could say and we were proud to say was, we're
going to get it. What little we knew about State Aid 2 1/2 years ago, we know
an awful lot now and as soon as we can get that State Aid out there, we're going
to do lt. Bluff Creek was cracking and we knew we had to save State Aid to get
it done. Now here we are and I expected 2 1/2 years ago that maybe people would
have a change of heart because it gets back to the $1,250.00. I'm confident
lt's going to be a good road and I'm confident lt'$ going to protect the lake
and it's going to take care of an awful lot of problems out there. Agreeing
wlth Rlchard's comments about the trall and maybe even the overlay. I couldn't
see overlaying thls thlng. When we're all on the Council 10 years from now and
we've got to remake that decision, we'll be called fools because we're on the
Council that long. But it's just a difficult, difficult decislon because I
don't 1lye out there but we have to, as Councllmembers, look at the whole thing
and say, why do we want this? Is it worth enough for us to have each of these
27
City Council M{;etl~]9 -- June 10, 1991
residents pay .$1,250,00 and it's very tough to say if but given all the options,
it's ~t good investment and Z know tl~ere's a lot of people that don't agree with
't. hat.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Mike?
Councilman Mason: A whole lot's been said and I think it's been pretty well
said. I thlnk the safety lssue for the trail ls paramount and the oak trees.
The east side, west side thing Z think is definitely something to look at.
Havlng klds of my own, the less they have to cross the road to walk out onto the
trail Z think tile better. I'm concerned wlth what Mr. Headla was saying about
the oak trees too. If we can look at a way of, and I'm sorry, the other
gentleman too about, impacting tile roots, that's paramount. But Z thlnk I like
wl~at the commurlity's saying about it. Zt's always a concern but I thlnk like
pretty much everyo~me else is saylng, that road's going fast and at some point
we're gOirlg to have to do something about lt.
H¢~yor Chmiel; Thank you. ]; guess I go back to thinking 15 years, 16 years ago
when Z moved here. We wound up wlth an assessment on our house. Z had my own
septic .'4ystem and at the particular tlme we ifad to connect to city sewer. By
the time we got our road ln, our sewer, our water, out' storm sewer, if I'm not
too faf' off, Z think my total ,'~ssessment was $10,000.00. Believe it or not I
belleve Z'm golng to pay it off this year. Last paynlent. And I understand the
co~(s. $.1.,250.00 is ~ lot ()f money. When I looked at the $10,000.00 I said
that's a hock of a lot of money. The thlng that .I'm looklng at of course too.
~e can pul this over a period of time. 6 years. Just a quick calculations,
.$1,250.00 plus inl:erest, $200.00 some dollars per year. That's one thlng I'm
looking at. If we go with the: trail it stands at that particular dollar. T_f it
1se't, then of course that lowers the total project cost but Z st111 thlnk that,
and .T.'m not one for having trails within residential areas except in thls one,
as many of the ones .I'v~ polnted out that .I felt should have some type of a
tr,~i], for the safety aspect. Z have, as I said before, if Z said 8 times that I
sat out there at different times and driven it and looked at watched, I don't
~.hink Z'd be exaggerating at ~lJ. because I do have some concerns. Not only with
Hinnewashta Parkway. We have the same thing with TH 101. We have it with
Powers 8oulevard. We llaUe it wit. h most of your major areas that do carry
traffic and there is some traffic that is carried from TH 7 to TH 5 and from
TH 5 to TH 7. There's no question and that's going to be there but I don't
think it's going to increase it anymore. More specifically if people want to
u~e TH 4~, they're not going to go onto Minnewashta Parkway and drive at m lower
speed when they can go 55 mph~ And they drive at 55 mph on Minnewashta Parkway
but ]i'd like to know th;,~t License number and we'll make sure we send them a
letter making thenl aware their speeds are a little high. But the overall
project ~ think has some acceptability to it but Z too am willing to sit back
arid listen to the people from the area to prove thelr respective point~ as to
what they feel should or should not be done. So with that Z'11 drop the issue
and T'11 call the question.
Councilman Workman: I would move to accept the feasibility study for the
upgrade to I1innewashta Parkway and call. the public he,ring for July 8th.
Councilman Mason: Second.
28
City Council Meeting - June 10, 1991
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded that we accept the feasibility study
with the proposed public hearing for July 8th. Discussion?
Councilman Mason: Is now the time to talk about the alternate bid for
bituminous or concrete or is that...?
Mayor Chmiel: I think that still can be discussed at the public hearing
meeting. I'd like to get more input from the people and I'd like to know the
difference really in cost. Maintenance and upkeep on concrete is much less than
bituminous and I'm looking at it purely from a cost effective way.
Councilman Mason: Because what David said is true. Being an ex-runner,
bituminous is.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes, a lot easier.
Councilman Mason: Gentler.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes, a gentler nation. Thank you Mr. Bush.
Resolution ~1-57: Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Mason seconded to
accept the feasibility study for the improvements to Ninnewashta Parkway,
Project No. 90-15 and that a public hearing be called for July 8, 1991. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
REVIEW OF THE DOWNTOWN TRAFFIC STUDY AND CONSIDER SIGNALIZATION OF THE GREAT
PLAINS BOULEVARD AND WEST 78TH STREET INTERSECTION, STRGAR-ROSCOE-FAUSCH.
Paul Krauss: As you're aware, this is an outgrowth of a study that the HRA
first 1111cited. It started last year to get a handle on downtown trafflc
issues. It was initially started when Target was still proposing downtown. We
reallzed that there were a lot of issues golng unanswered. I thlnk over time
the complaints that we've had about being unable to turn onto 78th Street bear
that out. That thlngs are getting tougher and this study flgured prominently in
our ability to resolve it. We have Denny Eiler here tonight from SRF who
managed this study. He gave a presentation to the HRA several weeks ago and
generally the conclusions were that we ought to start looking at some
signalization, particularly for a first one at Great Plains Blvd. and 78th
Street. The HRA was receptive to the study. For those on the City Council who
do not share jolnt membership ulth the HRA, we thought we'd 11ke to glve you a
brlef overview of that and hopefully get your support or your direction to go
back to the HRA and have them get to work on undertaking some of the work that's
been proposed. With that I'll give you Denny Eiler.
Denny Eiler: Good evening Mr. Mayor and members of the Council. I'm going to
briefly go through the report. This has been presented once before and also the
update presented to the HRA and we'll hit some of the high spots. To refresh
everybody's memory, including mine. This is a map of the study area that we did
some trafflc forecasting on based on the land use, we got from the Clty and Fred
Hoisington. We had made some traffic counts out there earlier on in the study.
These are the daily volumes. Some of the hlgh points are approaching slightly
over 12,000 vehicles a day. Two way on 78th Street east of Great Plains and in
'i.t~c .~.~, ,000 Lo .lO,O00 '.'-,'.triBe as you head west. As a resttlt of a previous Cour~cil
prr~.:.;~;nl;.ttion: thor','., was a rcqLtest 'i:o t,?.k6 a look at Frontier Ira11. We
t~ck. ~4,~ did a (r~f'Fic cot.t~[ roy Fret]tier "rrm11. These are the a.r,. turning
[r, ov~mo~t c~nts. There ~i'~; 30 wehicJ.~s tutoring ].~ft o~zt of there i~ the
~,ornino. There was a querction, cor~cern about gaps ,~nd I could add that
vel. Lime ()[ J2,000 CL(f'8 8 d¢&F, there probably .[.s a dap pf'oblem. We d.td do a stop
sZgn analysis. ~'t.]. aZso sl'~o~ you the evenZng voZuae ~h~ch sho~ 32 cars ~ere
tl.trl'l~l~g mild a,zk~ng the r~ght turn into f. he ne~gl-borhood. ~e d~d the stop s~g~
~fl~]Fsis at Fath ~nd FrontZer-'rraZZ and the current ~eveZ of service is b.
[_sv~l of sei-vic~.¢ at ti~r¢ stop sign is d~)fined 8s a lack of reserve c~tpacity. Now
[~ fnr most h~gh,~y designs j.r; (he m2r~m~tm ~ccopt~ble ~ave~. ~e d~d go and
catct.t~,ztt) 'l. h3 ~u~l~br~- of gaps that ~re being used t)y the ex~stZng traffLc and
~L's 22~ o'~ the 9apo af'e be~ used 'Ln the aorf~Zng and ~2~ ~n the evening but &t
i'; ;qpp¥oachi. nga problem. We ctlso noted :s~me o'(her problems. 78th and Great
Plains. The westbour~d left '[ttm-n is theoretically over capacity. Sonmebody once
said, ~2].]. notl~i~g ca~ ever be over tape, city. Wheat i[ is is actual traffic is
exceeclJr~g laboratory capacity. That's what 1t's problem is there but that does
.i. ndicate thai. ther~-~'s ¢~ problem. O~m ~f the o'tl'm¢~r charges float we had .t~ the
m.tpdm,[e of the study was to conduct al~ orig~n destination study ~tsing a license
p]at~¢ t¢~chm'liqtte ,]~l(t ]: don't k~ow if you s;&w the Hinutes. Z warmted to comment a
wof'd i1'~ there. There was a word pool- but I don't know if that was a
m~scecording o¢ wl~atevef', t.Je said i( was a poor technique to use. I don't know
what I really said that rmight but this is actually ~t very good technique to use
/:o ~h~:c:k license plates, bJo did this by, we I~ad '~o wai~ until spring weather
and tfme light: allowed us to pick up the peak evenir~g f-usi~ hour. We do this by
t,~,kino thee 1.tcr:ns~ plate, f~ecof'dil~g those irate a tctp~-¢ recorder. We pick date,
locations as FOil omb see around the al'em and we check, 'record all the rmumbers.
We ptt[ them i,to ¢, colm~pmlte]' and we do a match. We'¢e looking for license plates
i.~m~.tt showed up ir~ uo]]sec[ttive 5 minu[e per'feds wii:hil~ the '.sa~me o'r consecutive 5
~m.[mlutes pet'[ods. ~,J~-z d[d f~nd tlmat there's some trips that were made in and out
of ti~e ~-~t'ea ~.tthi~ th,~t time a~'~d I'll show you somrme of those which indicates
tidal. ~l~i].c they tr~chr~ically r~howed up a~ a match ;~s a [hf'~t trip because they
took s~tch little tinme to go '[hf'ough. You look at the routes and you can see
tll,tt they f-ea].ly ~J~'Fe not thru tf-ips. Starting wJtl~ tl~e we~st, now we found that
~e fmad 228 vehicles approauhing from Powers. 56% of those vehicles wound up i~
downtow, and additionally there's 9~ that came in ;zl'~d wel~[ [)ack out. So
appa'rer~tly they made a tf'ip 'that took them less than 10 minutes to conmplete. In
thr; eye of the b¢~h~ldr:r that ~outd t)o considered anoth~r ioc,~], trip. Looking ~t
Oi'e,~t Plains coming from the south, again 52% of ?.he tra'ffic :¢emained in
dow~tow~ .[Ol~:~f' th;.~n ]0 minutes and another 18~ made tl~eir tr].p J_n and out of
there ~J. th~n 10 m, inutes. Ttmey may have gone to time gas station or picked up
qmzart of ~n.[lk. IncLdel~t,']l.l.F, we cal~ ~;ee that 1Z~ of the trafflc theft came from
the so~t'Lh did go up l'H 101. Back to that pi'evious om]e. There we had only
passing from Powers a).l the way through to Bakota on the east end of town. But
thi. s .ts in the even;irm~) and i:!~a'( wouldl~'t be expected to be a large r~umber.
Leokirmg ;,t TI4 10~. north, we have i.~pp¥oxim,~te.].y 300 car's there. Another
wo~r~d Ltp ~n do~i~to~r~ with 6% ~-eturning back to the flort[m in additiorm to 1~ that
came J.n and ~eni; out Bakota (Avenue. Here we found we had 16% of the traffic
went fFom TH 101 norti~ to TH 101 south a~d another 21~ that proceeded on
trrough. No~ ~t s very poss~bZ~.: that some of tnos~ stopped elf too ~e're not
c3rtaJn ~'~ [ht-:F had br&t~f stops or not. ~nd the]~ corn&nB from TH 5 on the
,::nd (:f tot,~r~, ~e i'~a~i 82~ o'¢ th~.~ 1. r~ffic ~o~tnd up ~n downto~l~ and on~7 9~
presumal)ly p,~ssec! on lhrot~gh and agaJ. r~ we had some return moves. We took a look
30
City Council Heeting - June 10, 1991
at this with respect to what the proposed improvements on realigning TH 101 on
the east end of town would accomplish and these are the movements that were
affected or would be affected by the proposed improvement would be presumably
attracted on this new link down to use what you would call the downtown by-pass
of TH 5. The net result is around 210, excuse me. 250 vehicles out of about
400-425 I believe that we identified that could be diverted. Let's say
attracted from downtown. Well that's a pretty significant number but in view of
some of the forecast work ue did for 2010 and this is the p.m. peak hour for
2010 and it does presume that TH 101 has been straightened out. 200 some
vehicles, when you see that we're approaching volumes of around 800 westbound
vehicles on 78th Street. While it's a beneficial move to do TH 101, it's not
going to be a panacea. It's not going to solve all your problems. It will buy
you some time. We took a look at the forecast volumes and since our last
presentation ue had a chance to check some of these numbers against some other
studies and I don't have them on a graphic but we're particularly concerned with
the Eastern Carver County Study and they did a unconstrained and a constrained
...and we're showing 27,400. Now a 2 lane road arguably cannot carry that kind
of volume. TH 5 in Eden Prairie I believe approached that just west of 78th
Street before the 4 lane improvements. Between Hitchell and 78th Street I
believe. It reached 25,000 to 30,000. Now if TH 101 remained as it is,
obviously that can't happen but there would certainly be pressure for those type
of trips, particularly with the improvements to Town Line Road and other
development in the area. Now the Eastern Carver County study forecasts 16,000
for that linkage which is about maxed out for 2 lane road and that was in their
unconstrained. We looked at the balance in here and they had a little bit more
traffic forecast out to Powers so their model reached a different point of
equalibrium in here but the significant thing about Eastern Carver County study
was it really under recorded the traffic in the downtown area. They were
showing volumes that are below existing. The unconstrained had 5,700 on 78th
Street between Kerber and Harket. Today it's 10,000 and we're forecasting
21,000 at full development. But in fairness to that study, they do not look at
the kind of the microscale of the downtown area which looked at development on a
parcel by parcel basis. As Paul mentioned earlier, what the study also looked
at, we looked at the question of Frontier Trail. We looked at the question of 4
lanes at 78th and we looked at the other 3 intersections or 4 intersections
along 78th that you see here and the one definitive answer we came out with is
that currently the intersection of 78th and Great Plains meets signal warrants.
We also wrestled with the issue of 4 way stops. The discussion concerned what
effect 4 way stops would have on other intersections. While they certainly may
solve a problem at a specific intersection, it tends to destroy any platoons
that maybe a traffic signal would produce or natural traffic flows there. Like
a ramp meter on a freeway. They just spit out a car once very so often. While
they work at one intersection, they cause problems down stream and we certainly
wouldn't recommend a 4 way stop at 78th and Great Plains. It's a T intersection
for one thing and the volumes are really high there. The other 3 intersections
there are advantages to going with a 4 way stop but one of them, during one part
of the day and another during another part of the day and ~ really can't make a
strong recommendation as to one or the other. Harket Blvd. obviously would be a
focal point when development comes and that will obviously need traffic signals.
But between now and then, I would be relunctant to put in a 4 way stop. I
haven't actually sat out here and driven this thing day in and day out every
morning. I think that's probably when most of your problems are is getting out
of the neighborhoods in the morning. Get onto 78th Street. So I would just
31
i , I
· .;,:-:.',il ioF~ :/oI~. ': 't;~u~:~'.'.:l,l,u 7o,..,.'re .J.n a po.~it.ion ?;~...'.re t~,:,-i. I m not faced
t.J(:,ii'~; 4.~l:¢~'r',~L:; Ll'~: 'r-u,.~d ou",: l~,'.':'¢.:. 1: .¢yff~p~t'k.i]j.'.,:e witi~ you on il'~.tt ,.~d ]. 9tt~s:~ wp.'d
~':¢; w".'.~i. LnO l~: ~o:'!.: f~trther w:lth yOl.t ].'[ )'ott:'F~; [:3,-.il~y :_~';:Yious about pic:kin~ one.
r','~ tl',o:.-:,'_-'. J_llt:-f:-:,',c:l.Lol~s. t,Jr~. d.[d ].ook ,.ti: some of the. oi. hei' vo].umes and a].:so 'the
~_r,i.~;'::,'.:c'!i. ofl of 7,.~,t!, dlld ',rl'l J.O~ ~'th tt~e 'r,:a.l. ignment also mc. ets sJ. grlal ~ai-i-ani. s
oIAm. ::i:.', ,'% v¢:.sul, i. o[', o~' ':~1 C):CJL'i' Lo ell(::ou'r~ge l:l'~.tff',c i;o by-p,_;L;s downtown
Cha~lha:~:r;en ~ would L~ke. a w,'~iL and see aLtituUe on that, Hake su'ro the conduit
...¢!r.;s~.dned ,.~nd mOl~i, tor th;~L il~t~r,s;.~ctZolm beo~use a lot ~ the traffic i~ goZng
to h,r~ tu~'l~·irlg Y~gi~t i.o go in i. he. re and by not having a ~ignal you Carl discou~-age
>.1'~': l:-'.-ft l:/t¥1! ol.~il 0'? ~.h~r':: i-o ":)fl!,'-~ de::.ji'r~8 allr,~ maybe keep it ol~t Oil TI.t S. So T
would go s:]_ow o'n ~:l~..~. o]~e Puli. in9 tn~ ~igna]. al Great P~laJ. ns.: woul. d probably
i:i~;: in'te.r~:,~ec'fio'ns ,.qJil qf'o~. Siring today".'~ volttmes at eLt~;J] o'1r the
i. ii[r-.'['::..'f':(:~.~_Oii '~.:'-i graph,,~.d.. T. b(-.'.].:[:.;u,'-: [hJ~; is I'Zght he','e, wi. th Gt-e:,tt Pl,'.tZnr:;
7P, fh to~-lay so we're J.:~ i. hr~. ,:.tr'e~ ~l~et'e a ~;.ignf-.t.l J.s ~ar'ral~'ted. By 2010 we-'d be up
i:i li~:~ art,~. For' r~XELIllf,~,~.-.· t"r'olltZt-;;' l'r-~ii! tod,:.ty i:~ dow!~ her'e 8~d by 2002, based
ol] wh,~'l we kllOW th_e developmellt Lo be, [hat would I)e a candidate '['oF
:;.~¢Jl'lJ.l.J_Z,'~tl..[()f: 'i.c.]c]. ..'Iii:st. i.o :-~llow ~.'OIJ, u,'iial: the (j'f'obJl. h of the dow~itown ,:.:faa
mr.'.¢.~n if it happenr.:: ol~ ~.i~i..,_: time frame. The. night we wer;a out h.~;'r'8 before the
· ¢'1~ f
I{,,¢'~,[F!¢.f-:'. W;--'iO r-;omr: d;y-:~)r..'lol)m(~.lli, qLte:::l:[oIi:.; th...~i, w',-;l'.': ra.L:-:ed 'll'~¢_t~' kJ.l~d of ca:st
C].OI.t'.J:-~ OIl ill'lo ~qhc)].,?. (.levelopm~lt suene 'right now al~.d ]' guess we're seeJ. n9
tl~'rougi~out t'h:¢ ~ho.'[.'.: mel. ropolitall ,.,Fe.,'.t. That Ll~i~g..; are 3]o~J.l/g dowll. So
t.r'.i, ed i:o l)l.tl, i. he J. fl~p'f'OVelflP..i-~t:~; Ltl) ,~9,!~.~_hst, ';LttJ'leY tllar~ ,-~ time scale, ;-t]so a 'ti. life
:;.,.:,?,1:..-- ;~.l:(:i ;t I;:):;.11i. ()'[ (levu.l.()l)m~-.'.lii: ,'.tll(l wli,!tl, thj.:; L:,Lty$ .~.g;, tod;~y at 781111 8.11d
P!,-~i~m cuvrr,~f.}.y meatc, w~:trr',~tnts but dgfl~.ll meet:J, hg .s~_gn&]. werf'~hts doesn't mean
.'.h,:~t './ou h~t~;r-.' i.o p,zt ;, Sigll,ll i1!. Tll~i.".s .jL~:.~'L ~.~ guideline and the ·Lei'Iff
t_;,..p;: c...F [r'4.t'fi:f.r.:: cot,t.r'O.L dr.:vZ,~:e bu'[ rio~ l~;;cr.,:~:.;c',riJ, y ~.t mandatoi'y i:r-affio ool~tt'ol
,-!ev~¢:c. f)lle of the war'Y,-~,,lt"' 'oy "!':~.' wdy [or ,th 41.~t. w~y :atop [s .if >'oLt meet
· ' ""' h ,'~nd I'H ].().]. as I mel~tj, ol]ed
:::{911:.t!. tg,lrl-,'t,~L:-' you (.:,!{1", .~_llt~;! J. gl J~;.tzJ_:';.,,.~','
i . i ~:, ,. -. ..
?.:e:'nn.i. ca]]y m,':et tn.. w,[¥'f'..-'Ll'l].s ~Od~l~,' ~; +he ',"o,-'td~ay .[s ;eal~.gned and ol)ened for
vr,'~f,,'[c. ,.,,t~: ,-:,lid H¢~tYk,';i., ?St.h ;~lld L~edo ~ou.l.d me. et ,..~kgna_l. t~;.~r-i','..trlts ~Zth th~.:
, .~ ~ " ·. 1~. ~ . ~ .
~?0.,000 ; !).LJ.C.~r.'. '~n,.~ ~s ,oroF¢o:s:_.u For ~.l~r¢ shopp.(ng ten(er ;~ld ~l~a'~ ~ouLd be
pY,'.-:rgLtl,}bly la)' JS'93. ¢%,(.~Lt.T_II, whe. r~ ,'.t bt.tiJ.~ling J.:¢ opoll t. lle c. lJ.e. ni:ele i:sn't always
.'iqhL there d~y one. It t*''o,'' some tilne to establish cu~tonlers o'r fo'r all the
r:):-'¢l'. Of 'Lh,'~. pl'of;ei i.)' Lo I)P. r'elltod o~tt. But i. hat':s kind of wl~err; we; ,:~re right
-ow ~.~J.[h I.i'~e ::;:r:hcdLtl¢,o e ~', ,,_
., .~, we!- .,ivr:,, Of. her deveJ, o~)ment would come on Line in
I Clf'l~~.I ,-.. I .
...~ .....-,~, P()O ,'_tn:.,.. kLnd of '..~u:;r, 9 f;.~st [)l.ti: Iffc~lly of Fou h~v8 he~'r'd th.Ls befor~
~r,d T j~;::t, t~anL;::d Lo hi.( (he I~uh .~:pot,~;.. Z'i1. respond to questions.
M,.,.y:)r (-:.l~m.ie]: r~l~pi':'.c.';_,.~t.r; I. il,'.~i' S,-.,f.m~ quet:tJ_ol~ I came up wi_ti1 b,:fo'Fe :Li~ regard
',.'o TII 10.1..,nfJ (;i'(;a[ p.l.,.-tfn.~;. Tt's up in the gf'ztph r'kght now whet'e it shows thatt
ii. WOltj.'.j t, laT't','-.tll[ ,-'.t $.;.ql~a.].. 011(::-~ th,.tt tt'¢.tff£~: is off' o[ our (]Ol~l~to~ll At'es with
TII .101..:-.oming ~.n t!~rou91] 'Lowly, ~her'e.. wou!d thai put 1. hat un that parf._[cular
vf,J urn',.' w;.~f'F,.(n !.'7
F..i.].el': We ~..,s:t~tt:_,cl about 200 vehicle drup. Now I'd have to come back
1.oc)k ~}i: w1'~¢.~I: appl'oa(;h ts bLt'i..['L would IflOV¢: ~( dowl-i J.[l Lilts d.(f'ect$oll but
sti.11 krcep ..[.~ above t!~3 line. ~'~ 1t were ali on the heav$er approach,
just movr¢ il o~c.~ t.i'f.f.r~ way so on [his street we move it down here but it's
pf'ot)~bly some corrlblfl&'[Jon ~o pul it rJ. 91~ ,~boLtt .(n (hei'e. Now that's
!)ot~;nb[,~]. 400 ~;,~rt.; lh,'~l ~;o~].(.~ b~ dj. vetted We th:;.nk the 200 i~; probably
t'ea.l~GfJc zl~i,.t f.(., [h¢~ i:Ac( ()'[ lhe'. shot-t stop of'is '~l&'( ~o detected a certain
32
City Council Heeting - June 10, 1993.
percentage of those may actually be higher. So out of 200... Even with 400
you're still probably be...
Mayor Chmiel: Did we look at those cars turning off onto 79th Street for the
requirements at either Amoco or Holiday or some of the other businesses along
79th? A lot of that traffic flow, rather than going back out onto TH 101, it's
easier to go 79th until you come to Market 8oulevard and then turn in Market
Blvd. back onto ?8th. Was any of that looked at with all of those vehicles
going in but not out?
Denny Eiler: They're going up and using this connection roughly and then up, is
that what you're saying?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. What I'm saying is they're coming off of either TH 5 and TH
101, going in for servicing of either gasoline or as you mentioned picking up a
quart of milk. When they do that, rather than coming back out onto Great
Plains, that intersection is probably not the best because it turns coming off
of TH 5 west and then going north on TH 101 or coming directly across so that
intersection is not the easiest one to make access. So following along 79th
Street until you come to Market Blvd. and then turning north on Market Blvd. to
get back over to 78th Street. I guess I see some of that traffic flou taking
place. I've been watching some of that rather closely and it seems like total
numbers seem to be shifting some because of the accessibility of Market Blvd.
and coming back around.
Denny Eiler: I'm not sure exactly where our counter was positioned there that
particular afternoon but they were supposed to be just north of TH 5 and whether
they were north of the Amoco driveway or south of it, I couldn't tell you that
for certain without talking to them. If they were north, they would have gotten
that volume. If they were south and there was a stop off involved, that
wouldn't have shown up. I don't know if that uould be that big a volume. It
may be included in here. I doubt that it would be more than 25 to 40 vehicles
I mean just based on uhat we eau with this count here over the course of an
hour.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Per hour. I'd say that's probably ballpark.
Denny Eiler: I think what you're getting at is if we have signal here we'll
have an increase in people trying to avoid the signal .... Well one of the
things we mentioned before was because of the turn lane lengths and storage
requirements or storage capabilities at that intersection we would try to run
the signal with the snappiest timing as possible to minimize delays. Somewhat
at the expense of stops so whlle it may not be that much more benefits than a 4
way stop in that sense. You want to operate a minimum delay mode so that you're
not just slttlng there wlth particular movements burning green with nobody uslng
them. So to keep the cycling fairly snappy and then you don't run out of
storage in your left turn lane. The one particular concern of storage ls the
westbound left turn because ultimately they'll back up and plnch off the
westbound rlght. So by keeplng the cycllng down, lt's a small intersection.
Even if you have...you can keep it fairly brisk. And that may prevent people
from wantlng to dlvert because they thlnk they're going to lose time.
33
Mayor Chmiel: ]'. guo~.s w~. don't wan[ to try to dSvert people from downtown
bec,.~l~SO ~l~t'~ pat't o'[ 'i:he busine~s clim~;.e there. No~ slay tho~e people away
from that particular area
nenny Ei].er: Yeah, it's a fine ~rt. I mean we want to make it inviting but you
w,~t to keep some of t. he thru ~raffl¢ out of there a~ a part of making it
.inviting so it'.s a
kl~,yor Chmiel: I drive that particular area every day of [he week, to and from
a~d there's some. traffic .sitting there from time to time and ]7_ tl~ink I've
probably ~,at the~e the ].ongest about 2 1/?. minute~ lh order to get onto ?Sth
Street. ~'ve tried differel~'i, roads u£tl~in there and to me that's not being
overly cumbersome or overly time consuming as far as T'm concerned. Z suppose
Solnetimr:s .som.'.;one may ~i[ there ,'.~ few more mi~]utes or it seems like it's longer
than what it actually ic~.
Oenny E.[ler; Yr~al~, [he're'~ ar'mother time scale.
Mayor £h~i~ie].': Right. [~ut, Tom?
Councilman Workman: Thanks fo~' your' comments. Yeah, I'].]. rlng the bell again.
Z lhink what t~e't'e dolng is, and it's all probably related to item number
Wh,.~t we're doln~ is ue'r~, it appears as thougl'm we are kil~d of stt-aining the
traffic but we're ~]ot rea!ly maklng it flow better which has me uorrled as a
husimlesS person downtown because I want it to be im~viting as you say Don and
Z water it to be healthy and flowing but not restrained. When people feel
restrained, the~m th~ey he~d oLtt. Numbe~ ~. MayI)e we don't need to widened that
~;egme~t but we do need ~o do something in making it flow better. When you get
th~ second h~f of ti~ R.idyovieu buildJ, m'~g, the Medieval Arts Building. You get
irmg'r~ss and ~egress there ~nd they're goZng ~.o come out and they're going to only
be able to go west. Just like when you come out of Ahn Lee or Town Squa~'e onto
West Fgth Street_ You can only go west. O'r' ~f yOLt oo~e o~t of Merlyn's at a
certain p]..~zce you've got to go you know whatever. If we get a light at Great
Pl~lnz~, maybe ue can open those up and maybe we don't need to widened it but we
do need [o put the curb cuts in. I don't know. If everybody's he~ding west and
t. hey're actually going over to Ederm Prai'r'ie up TH 101 which isn't too far
th~t's a p~im~. That'rs not helping t'r~ffic because they don't want to go towards
Chaska. A signal on Great Plains Blvd.. You always talk about it in
conjunction with realignin~ TH ~01 but if Z come down TH 101, I've said this
before. If Z come down Til 101 ~nd I come to a llght, I'm going to take a right
~,nd go into tou~. Whe~ I get to that ligl~t in town, I'm going to take another
right and go home. Nothing's changed for me. I'll continue to do that so I
don't know how ti'mat atl work~ unless we have no right on red because nothing's
really changed. Know what I mean? Point number 1, a recommendation that each
dreve.topment uithir~ thc CBD undertake a traffic impact study. Now that seems a
]i. ttle open to me because Z'm not qu.tte sure what .size the development and I
would say that maybe th~) C.[ty should undertake an economic impact study as to
~mou the chan~es irm thelr traffic patterns ~ffect the businesses. Maybe it
:should be turned around. Far flung maybe but you know what I mean?
Mayor ChmJ. el: [)enny, dj.d you want to respond to that?
Oenr, y Eil~;~': No, that's okay. Th,zt's why presumably you ran for Council.
34
City Council Meeting -. June 10, 1991
Councilman Workman: No, because I wasn't a downtown businessman when I ran for
office. Businessman where they have worse traffic in Chaska.
Denny Eiler: We've been doing some work with the City of Minneapolis and we
find that nobody represents their downtown. They're all...politicians and
nobody works in downtown.
Councilman Workman: I'm trying to turn it around. Wait a minute you know, and
we've had some big drawn out legal battles about traffic in this city so I'm
going to be careful.
Denny Eiler: Well they're certainly an order of magnitude. If somebody...
change land use...but we're talking about the vacant property.
Councilman Workman: Probably the major ones, yeah. We might have a Tom Workman
Towers down here or something. The two intersections at Great Piains Blvd. and
Laredo are dangerous and I teli you they're getting more and more so every day.
Because it's getting cut throat out there and we're impatient Germans. I don't
know.
Councilman Wing: Is it difficult turning? Number of cars? Sight lines?
Difficult turning? Narrow?
Councilman Workman: Sight lines. We've got sight line problems I think. We've
got, like I said. When you come out of the Post Office at Laredo and you want
to go left, it's a tough one to think about really close. Now we've got
increased traffic from the hotel and they don't know. I always go through that
intersection thinking these hotel people don't know what they're supposed to do.
Am I going to stop or am I not? I just about do and then they gesture. I don't
know that we can direct the HRA Paul. Can we direct the HRA to do something?
Paul Krauss: I don't believe so but I'd defer that to the City Manager.
Councilman Workman: Because we should direct the HRA. Politely ask probably.
Oc)n Ashworth: Well, they're going to be, it will be the HRA dollars that will
accomplish the work in the downtown and I guess one of the concerns has been to
insure that the work effort is something that the Council wants done. I think
the HRA ls sensitive to that polnt at thls tlme. They want you to say yeah, we
want you to do this.
Councilman Workman: ~hat I want, and I know when we redid the downtown and we
say, well we haven't got a downtown the business community maybe doesn't like it
and everything else but the downtown community's input was asked for and gotten
and this is what they wanted and so live with it. I would propose that we ask
the Chamber to either at this meeting or the July meeting. We have time
I think, to officially take their July meeting and review this document somehow.
~ don't know how we can get them all copies but or whoever would want a copy.
I've had some extra copies. I've given them to some of the business people in
town. I don't think there's any of them here tonight. But to give it that one
vaIve you know.
Mayor Chmiel: One. One business person here.
35
City Council M~'~'tin9 .- June lO, 199i
Council,,al, Workman'. Oh! He's a business pe'rson. And I 'think that would help
t.o relieve again whatever problems the downtown might have with whatever.
They've got a dJ.[ferent logic ti]an we do. Or you do.
6ouncilman Mason: Can I quote you on that?
Councilman Workman: Yeah. It doesn't mean it's a bad one. So I said
everything that I said before for emphasis.
Hayor 6hmiel= Yeah, I agree with that. To get at least some input from the
business community and I think that's a good idea.
Councilman Workman: Does my right turn, two right turns coming down TH 101 make
sense to people?
Denny Eiler: Yeah. I guess if the trip is that unspecific. Where's the person
heading in the first place? I guess that's the question you have to ask.
Councilman Workman-' Well we're saying all this traffic's going to go on TH 5
from TH 101. I'm saying there's a lot that wouldn't think of it.
Paul Kr'auss: You were a local trip right now. The way you come through and
that would continue.
Councilman Workman: ...TH 101 isn't loaded with people that don't know uhere
they're going.
Paul Krauss: Yeah, but I think there's a real question as to uhether or not
somebody goir, g to Powers Blvd. should transit through downtown or whether they
should suing around on TH 5. They will if there's enough to stop them.
Councilman Workman: What's going to be there? That's what I'm saying.
Paul Krauss: Well initially one signal. Ultimately a couple more but more
importantly, (he dountoun will be packed with businesses growing and if you're
coming into downtoun, it's because you're doing something there. Not because
you're looking to shortcut through it.
Councilman Workman: If ue have 5 signals. If ue have 6 signals from TH 101 to
Great Plains to Laredo to Market to Kerber to Powers. Maybe it's 7. Sounded
like 8. That's going to be interesting.
Councilman Wing: I love it.
Councilman Workman: That's going to be real interesting. Especially that one
from Laredo to Market. I'll tell you, I don't know how they could get closer.
Councilman Wing; I am just glad that I live in Excelsior.
Mayor Chmiel: Excuse me? How did you get on this Council?
Councilman Wing: I'll explain that.
36
City Council Meeting - June 10, lggl
Councilman Workman: So I'm just saying. It's going to look like all this
succession of lights. It's going to be frightening down there. But maybe
needed but.
Denny Eller: Well you'd have the trafflc.
Councilman Workman: Presumably.
Denny Eiler: This type of discussion is taking place, I don't know if you
followed the mall at Inver Grove. The Discount Mall, whatever it is. Where one
set of traffic numbers says all these improvements are needed. That's by the
City's traffic engineer consultant and then the traffic englneer consultant
working for the developer says well, we don't really need to make all these
improvements but then if you belleve him then his business lsn't golng to make a
go of it so. The Mega Mall is the same way. The marketing people are saylng
we're going to bring all these people ln. Their traffic engineers are down
playlng it saylng we don't want to spend all that money on the roads. If you
need the slgnals out there, lt's because you've got the traffic. You're just
approaching those threshholds now. And I would like to back up and say that the
question of 4 way stops. If Laredo had a little bit better connection to Kerber
to pick up that mornlng residential trafflc coming down Kerber, there'd be no
question that'd be the place to put it. But then you're going to run lnto a
problem when you do eventually have a signal on Market. You may have to come
back and pull that out then so that's the reason why I was a little bit
reluctant to go on record recommending a 4 way stop. They sometimes cause some
problems. But yeah, if you've got the traffic, that's going to come first.
Mayor Chmiel: I guess you're right. Okay. Anyone else for some more
discussions on it?
Councilman Workman: I'd be wllling to go agaln.
Councilman Wing: I...to not. I realize it's getting late. Ooes anybody want
to?
Councilwoman Oimler: Well I just wanted to, I only got this study today so I
didn't have a chance to really go through it. Did anyone else not get lt? Was
I the only one?
Mayor Chmiel: I got mine a couple days ago.
Councilwoman Dlmler: Oh, I'm belng plcked on. But anyway.
Mayor Chmiel: It was delivered a little late. It was delivered on Saturday.
Councilwoman Oimler: Well mine was delivered today so I can't really comment on
what's in the study except what I've just heard here but I wanted to ask you,
did I hear you correctly? One of our concerns was that a lot of trlps were
being made to avoid TH 5 from Excelsior coming through to get on TH 5. Are you
saying that that's not true? I heard you say that a lot of the trlps were
local. People going for mllk or whatever. Old I hear that correctly?
City Comirlcil Heeting -- June 10, 1991
Denny Eiler: I guess I'd have to ask what specific trip. Are you talking about
a morning trip down Pouer:~ going through town?
councilwoman Dinller; Or are you talking throughout the day?
Benny Eiler'- Well we did the evening peak hour and I guess the closest thlng to
that maybe would be the return of thls movement here. We checked coming off of
Dakota. We only found that there were 32 vehicles out of 330.
Councilwoman Dimler~ That came into downtown?
Oenrmy Eiler~ That came th~'ough downtown and out Powers.
£ouncilwoman Dimler: Okay. So really we were over estimating that maybe?
Beliny Eiler: Oh, J: don't know if you were over estimating. It's a sensitive
issue. £ mean any additional vehicles in town that don't belong there, that's
what TH 5 and Powers Blvd. at'e for. ~ think one thing that's maybe overlooked
about the question of TH 101 and 78th is the fact that the exlsting intersection
is actually discouraging trafflc from continuing ahead on TH 101. Councllmember
talked about right turns. Now lt's a left and then across the tracks and back
again where it's going to be a much better shot. So that really hasn't entered
the equation.
Councilwoman DlmleT: Okay. I was a little confused about what you were saylng
there. Also, I gues~ in number 4 here on my report was a great concern to me
about on not widening. I don't know if we need to correct the problems by
widening but ~ definitely see the flow as totally belng interrupted. I agree
with Tom that when I come out of the pharmacy .~'ve got to go east to go west.
If ~ go through the parking lot, I'm standing there at that intersection for a
long time and 'taking my 11re lnto my hands to cross. It's a horrlble mess and
if we're looking at increasing trafflc, it's going to get worse. Curb cuts for
sure if we aren't golng to wlden. If that's even safe. I don't know.
Denny Eiler: Are you talking about B now?
Councilwoman Oimler'.' Yeah.
Mayor Chmiel: Not to sort of cut anybody off here but :[ think we've got to keep
thls thing rolling. Z tllink a suggestion that Tom had. We should bring it to
the Chamber of Commerce. Have them take a look see at it and then move it from
there. Give some study to thls.
Councllnlan Workman: What Z can do ls talk wlth Pat. Z can maybe show her the
s~udy a~d maybe some of the Pau].'s recommendatiol~s so maybe we can get a clean
copy and then they can, if they want and Z can get a feel if they want to, the
Board can decide that and they can make coples of whatever they'd like.
Hayer Chmlel'. And I think prlor to submitting it to HRA for t helr
recommendation to accept the report, Z'd ].ike to see us do this part flrst.
Councilwoman Dim].er: Yeah, I'm not ready to accept the report.
38
City Council Meeting - ~une 10, 199Z
Councilman Wing: Is there a chance of including the downtown residents that use
this street? I just so totally disagree with number 4.
Hayor Chmiel: Well, I think if we give the business community, the business
community would probably have more of an input than bringing additional
residential people in. So with that, would you like to make that as a motion?
Councilman Workman: Well I don't know. Do we need a motion on this?
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I think we do.
Councilman Workman: Make a motion to direct me to.
Mayor Chmiel: We direct you to talk to Pat and give this to the business
community.
Councilman Workman: To get further lnput and revlew from the Chanhassen Chamber
buslness community in regards to the Central Business District Traffic Study.
Councilwoman Dimler: Second.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Oimler seconded to direct Councilman
Workman to provide copies of the Central Business District Traffic Study to the
Chanhassen Chamber of Commerce for their review and comments. A11 voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Mayor Chmiel: May I suggest, don't throw away that one. Retain it. Hold onto
it. It's something that we should keep.
CITY CODE AHENDHENT PROHIBITING GLASS RECEPTACLES IN CITY PARKS, FIRST READING.
Todd Hoffman: Looking at the tlme of the subject, it may be tlmely in that Lake
Ann is just finishing up. There may be one or two glass bottles being dropped
as we speak.
Councilman Wing: Excuse me but maybe you should look at the street on the south
slde of City Hall.
Todd Hoffman: As well.
Councilman Wing: Excuse me Todd. Go ahead.
Todd Hoffman: Thls amendment has come about due to the number of comments belng
made in regards to broken glass in parks. We've heard that from residents.
We've heard that from Councilmembers. Park and Recreation Commission members
and including staff. As such, the attached ordinance amendment drafted by the
City Attorney and reviewed by staff is recommended for adoptlon by the Clty
Council. As noted, if approved and upon it's second reading, appropriate
measures will be taken to publicize the newly adopted park rule. That would
include the education of our CSO's and our Sheriff's deputies to patrolling the
park as such. Uery straight forward. The amendment I believe ls one sentence.
I'll answer any questions or defer them to Roger. Other than that, adoption is
recommended.
39
City Council lieeting --,June 10, 1991
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Just a quick thing that I brought up and I had discussions
also with Todd. Gerhardt tl~at is. And this is basically, and I'm surprised
that a father sitting here with twins .just recently.
Roger Knutson: I just thought of that. Baby bottles?
Hayor Chmiel: Yep.
Roger Knutson: Put tl~em in plastic.
Mayor Chmiel: But they have been glass.
Roger' Knutson-' They go in plastic too.
Hayor Chmiel: They can buy 'them ir, glass as well but they do have them and
th,-.y", re tne' ounce and a half or two ounce.
Roger Knutson: T've got about 30 of them on my counter. I knou about them.
Hayor Chmie}.; ]:. was just thinki~g of that and ]: wrote it down here. ]: don't
knou whether there's an exception to the rule.
Roger Knutson: Speak£ng wi. th some authority, seriously, you could put an
exception. Those glass bottles are so thick. ;E mean you can practically drop
them from 6 feet, or' :I:: have, and they don't bre~k. But rather than saying
certain glass .ts okay and certain glass is not okay, uhen you go into the park,
]: mean th~: plastic baby bottles work just f.tne too.
Councilman H.--.son: You can get a bunch of them for pretty cheap.
Roger Knutson: Yeah, they're real cheap.
Councilman Wing: But .tt's going to be part of this enforcement? Educationally?
Todd Hoffman: Correct. Educationally.
Hayor Chmiel: Bo we post this throughout the park?
]'odd Hoffman: Yeah, ue'l], post it .~s noted. The Commission .ts uorklng on a
comprehensive sign for all c&ty park locations. That would be included in that.
With some assistance from our...put ~t tn tile paper and then public,zing ~t.
Councilman I~orkman: T.t's really the beer drinkers versus the...children's toes
which usually get cut and it's pretty tough to ~rgue th£s one. Even with baby
bottles.
Councilman Hason: We use glass.
Councilman Workman: So do we.
Councilman Wing: Not any more. Not after tonight.
40
City Council Meeting -- June 10, 1991
Roger Knutson: I'd also point out there's certain discretion in enforcement.
Mayor Chmiel: Right and I agree with that. Any further discussion?
Everybody's getting a 11ttle punchy and lt's getting past that bewitching hour.
Can we have a motion?
Councilman Workman: I move approval.
Councilman Wing: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: Move approval of an ordinance amending Chapter 14 of the
Chanhassen City Code concerning Rules in City Parks.
Councilman Workman: Can we make this first and second? Can we change the rules
here quickly?
Mayor Chmlel: I think me can.
Councilman Workman: I would move to.
Mayor Chmlel: Have thls as flrst and second readlng?
Councilman Wing: How do we waive?
Don Ashworth: 475 vote ls needed.
Mayor Chmiel: Can I get a call for a motion on this to have this for first and
second? We have a motlon on the floor, do we have a second?
Councilwoman Oimler: I'll second that.
Councilman Workman: Can we have some discussion?
Mayor Chmiel: Any additional discussion? If hearing none, I'll call for the
question.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Oimler seconded to waive the Rules for
Council Procedures to vote on the first and second reading of the ordinance
amendment. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Councilman Workman: I move approval of the City Code amendment prohibiting
glass receptacles in city parks, first and second reading.
Councilwoman Dimler: Second.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Oimler seconded to approve the first and
second reading of an ordinance amending Chapter 14 of the City Code concerning
rules in city parks to prohibit glass receptacles. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously.
41
City Council. Mcetillg ~ ,]'Ulle 1.0, 1991
ZONING ORDINANCE AHENDHENT CONCERNING PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPHENI REGULATIONS FOR
RESIDENTIAL DISTRICTS, FIRST READING.
Mayor Chmiel: I hope everyone had an opportunity to go through these. It
appears as though what they're commending with these modifications seem to be
very consistent to what we should have. Any discussion?
Paul Kraus:~; Can .l: .just make one change?
Mayor Chmiel: No.
Paul K'rauss: I feel like. saying approve it, you'll like it. The motion was
printed 180 degrees from what it should say. It's a motion to amend the PUD
ordJ. nance. Zt excludes the residential district. So the Plannlng Commission
recommended everything except that section of the ordinance that deals wlth the
si~g.l.e Family district.
Mayor Chmie]_: Right. Okay. Any discussio~?
Councilman Workman: I move approval.
Councilman Wing: Second.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the first reading
of an amendment to Article VIII of the Zoning Ordinance except for the section
dealing with Single Family Resldential Distr/ct. Al] voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously.
DISCUSSION OF ACCESSORY STRUCTURE ORDINANC~.~
Jo An~l Olsen: This one is just to kind of get the Council's reaction to some fo
(he problems we've been h~ving with the new ordinance ulth the increased
setbacks for' ti~(: dJ. fferent size of accessory structures and then also we're
flnding that the 1,000 square Foot max slze of the structure in the RSF and R-4
dJ. stricts 11mZts swlmming pools and tennis courts too which we didn't even
really take 1nfo consideration. So we just wanted to brlng it Ltp tO your
8ttentlon that we ~re having some problems with enforcement. Not necessarily
enforcing [)itt with ~rying to explaln it to people and trylng to get them to
understand uhy we're doing it. We wanted to, I brought up the subject of the
sand box and Z don't know, was that you?
Mayor Chmiel: Y(:,'.~I',, that one threw me a little bit.
.lo Ann Olsen: hre you the sand box people? No? Well, in discussing that
setback wlth the people wlth the larger sand box, we told them that we would
bring 1'[ up for their beneflt to come to the Counc11. Obviously, Z dld talk to
the wife and they did meet the setback now that it is required. They reduced it
below 400 square feet and they've met the 10 foot setback. And that's really an
unusual1 case. T don't know how often we'1! I~ave that but I don't know. I guess
we just wanted to see if you felt that the nay it is now we should keep it that
way. Did you tl~ink that this is now what you really meant? The swlmmillg pools
and the tennis courts.
42
City Council Meeting - June 10, 1991
Mayor Chmiel: How many times do we go out and check sand boxes?
Paul Krauss: Never but they actually called us.
Mayor Chmiel: That's great if somebody is conscientious about that.
Paul Krauss: We don't often have somebody building a sand box bigger than a 2
car garage.
Mayor Chmiel: Right.
Councilman Mason: Does this need to be looked into?
Mayor Chmiel: Any discussions from Council? Any feelings?
30 Ann Olsen= Otherwise we'll keep it the way it is?
Mayor Chmiel: I think we should probably keep it the way it is.
Paul Krauss: That's fine with us and that was the answer we're looking for.
Whatever just a definitive answer. What this does do, and we should understand
that is there are situations where pools in particular won't be able to flt lnto
a backyard. Arguably if you try to cram a pool into a real small space, you're
golng to be impacting neighbors on 3 sldes so you mlght want to prohlbit it
anyway. Effectively this requires a setback and Z know we had one individual
talk to myself and to Councilman Wlng and thls would preclude hlm from havlng a
pool in his backyard but that's I guess the way it is.
Jo Ann Olsen: He had no backyard.
Mayor Chmiel: Too, you have to look at who's ad3acent to that. Whether it's
golng to cause any problems. Noise. Pool partles. Whatever. Speclal
consideration should be given.
Jo Ann Olsen: Would you consider the exemption to the 1,000 square foot though
for slze for tennis courts and swimming pools. I mean a tennis court couldn't
meet that. Not that we get a whole lot of tennls courts.
Councilman Wing: Before you think about that, I suggest you go out to
Mlnnewashta Helghts and look at the former, the home that had the tennls court.
Somehow the City has allowed them to put on a swimming pool and a tennis court
and destroy a neighborhood. I mean how that ever occurred I'll never know and
then they get divorced and move a week later and that's still the worse eye sore
in thls city. The most disruptive thlng to a neighborhood I've ever seen.
Before you even consider that, go look at that tennis court. It filled up the
entire yard and thls Clty approved it. It was not conducive to the neighborhood.
Paul Krauss: There was nothing, I mean under previous ordinances not too long
ago, that klnd of thlng was permissible. It's since been regulated.
Jo Ann Olsen: Okay, we'll just keep it the way it is.
43
City Council, Nee. t.i.n,~ - Jlin~ i0, 17~I
Councilm~tn Wing: Tha~. wJ.].] .pi-'eclude lhe rectuest for the swimmi'ng poo.[~ It
~.~J. mply would nev~r, ev~)~' eve~ g~. a va,'iancc.
PaLt]. Kraug$: Me11 riley t~J.w~ys couJd ask for a variance but they have 'to
(lemom]strate a hard~hlp. Ai'm(J that'~ difficult to do for a swimming pool.
~ayor Chmiel: Not unless they have a child that mu~t.
Paw! KF,'luss- Well J.f i~'~; a heal. th (.:OtiO~}f-I~, possibly.
Nayor Chmlel~ Any other
Councilm~.~mm Wo~ kman~ 'So we'Fe doing rmothing?
Mayor ChnmJ. el' well I thiimk we"re going l:o reave everything ,just as is so
there's no reason: to have ~ motion on this particular proposal,
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
Councilwoman Oimler: Z just w~nted to ask briefly, bistrlct ¢112 has a garage
sale in the fall every year and Z had the Cll~irperson of ti~at p~rtlcular
committee c8.1.1 me and ask, The other cltles are providing some space for
storage fur people ~o drop off iLems ~1]. summer. Asking if Ch~nhassen would
h~ve a space awilahle, Do we have any space available? Can anybody t hlnk of
anyplr}ce wher~e we could drop these items al. 1 s~mmer and then they would take
Lh~m away for their fall garage ~ale? I told her I didn't thlnk so but I would
ask. ! couldn"t thll]k of ~nything myself.
Don Ashwor~h: I can check w.i. th Jerry and see if there'~ some way we mlght be
abJ. e to accommod~tLe :somethlrmg
Mayor Chmlmie].: What about the buildings we Imave over by Pauly's?
Councilman W(~rkman: The space behind ti'me library?
Don Ashworth: Tkme Old Vlllage Hall, That's belng used on a regular basls.
Mayor Chmicl: l'hat:'s right,
Don Ashwor'th: The only thlng Z'mn thlnklng of ls I thlnk that durlng the wlnter
months we have more iterm~s stored than during the summer months so like the new
storage faci].i'ty we built. There may be a potential.
Todd ~erhardt: How much space are they lookirmg for?
Councilwoman 01ruler: You know I don't really know, I know at St. Hubert's we
always filled up the old g~,rage and that seemed to be plenty,
Todd uerhardt: How long do they need the ~p~ce?
Councilw~man 01mler: Well_, J.'t would be collecting during the summer and I think
the garage sale would be in October_
44
City Council Meeting - June 10, lggl
Todd Gerhardt: Is there a couple of...Bloomberg has space available...pot
pOUFFi 01' whatever they had in there is moved out. Those are potential spaces
too.
Mayor Chmiel: Can you check into that?
Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah, would you please check into that?
Mayor Chmiel: And then get back to Ursula. Very good. Okay, Mike? Board of
Equalization and Review.
Councilman Mason: My concerns were answered for the most part. The discussion
with the Minutes. I was concerned at the time and I know Don, both you and
I expressed concern about the ramifications of that action. Wlth what's been
said, I guess I feel a little better about it. Reading what I saw in the
Vlllager and one of the other South Shore papers, it seemed 11ke it was a pretty
futile effort. Well, because certainly as it turns out, a lot of people may end
up havlng to do a lot of extra work and we accomplished nothing except getting a
11ttle bit of print. But I'm hearing some other stuff coming out now so.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Very good. Richard? DNR.
Councilman Wing: I just want to tag onto Mike's comments. I realize where
these younger guys are loslng their attention span at thls hour. I honestly
felt that Mr. Schafer proved himself to be quite inaccurate. In many cases very
wrong and unfalr and excessive and I thought some of hls comments were
inappropriate. I was left from this process saylng that if the system is that
bad, he's maklng the system worse and I am very disappointed in the number of
mistakes he made. That if the people hadn't come in and confronted the
situation, would have been assessed at an excessive rate. That he would have
gone ahead next year and made even more excessive and those are falsified
property values and that concerns me deeply. And I have no doubts I'm going to
be at that podium next year. No question about it.
Mayor Chmlel: Me too.
Councilman Wing: And I'm going to be very vocal and I'm going to fight it. I
know enough to be there to complain and I feel confident that the Council will
hear my plea but I have to know that I have the right to be here. A lot of
people didn't so 60~ of the people that complained were in error, that's just
the tip of the ice berg. So thls artlcle offended me and the entlre process
offended me.
Mayor Chmlel: Very good. DNR.
Councilman Wing: I'm not sure how I want to relate to that Don other than to
say maybe you can best cover lt. The DNR ls doing a pllot project wlth the City
reforestation. Trying to preserve what we have left of our forest. However,
this particular project being very complex, very lntense, also ties lnto the
Rotary. Present Rotary program of trylng to plant trees in this city. The HRA
and their landscaping and plantlng for the clty. My personal interest in
reforestation. The City Landscaping Ordinance that's being looked at. New
developments. And just to sldellne that a 11ttle. I thlnk our Recycling
Committee fills a real need and ~hey cio it el', a very effective manneY so I'm not
looking fo~ any action of' any kited tonight other than I would like to later in
the. ~;ummer come to the Commi~;sion or come to the Council on the agenda with the
name .~hade Tree. Committee as a su.ggestion and with some justification for
;-equest to form that committee because I think they could help staff tie all
these loo%;e ends together such as recycling has done and make some headway on
this. That's a little less piecemeal and I'll leave it at that. I just would
like the Colzncil to be aware of where the rmalne Shade Tree Committee, it does
f~tnctlon i1~ other cities. Has been very successful and I would 11ko to formally
p;-eserlt it to tl',r; Council lateY in the summer' when 'tt]ings have settled down a
].]ttle blt.
Mayor Chmiel: I guess I wanted to just piggy back on that. Richard and I were
there when the ONR made tile presentation and I also wanted to just touch on the
letter that ue did receive from Tlm Erhart and someone by the name of T. Workman
regarding the Cl~anhassen Council wheYe they had successfully completed plantlng
of ~;pproxJ. mateJ, y 2,000 deciduous and conlfer trees at Lake Susan on berms and
adjacent to Powers Blvd., Kerber Blvd., TH 101, tile intersection of Pioneer
Trail. I thlnk we could probably try to ~i8 thls irl wlth them as well as any
other club that we so desire 'to also take this particular position because I
think reforestation is an excellent way to go. Shade trees do provide a great
d~;aJ, of assisting f_n utilization of energy. Summer they provide that shade to
cool the house down and in the winter they drop their leaves to let the sun come
back .into ti~e house and warm it back up. So I think there's a lot of worth
while things we can do with this proposed project. Anyone else?
Councilman Workman: Only th.'~t I was involved with that a little bit al~d Tim
FrharL was truly the motlon behlnd ail that and Tim and I have talked an awful
lot about tYees and reforestation and everything else. These kind of projects
are very labor intensive Z found out. Havlng a Shade Tree Committee does not
produce that labor. You sti].l have to go to the Cub Scouts of tile Rotary Club
or somebody else. I don't know that havlng another clty committee will
accomplish ,'~nytl~ing differe~lt. Tim Erhart and I have trled to work with Clty
kla11. It's definite].>, got some kinks and some things wrong with it and we're
gotng to have to work on that. There's no doubt about it. As well as the
weather. Z don't, know what another commission would get accomplished. We're
kin~l of aski~g for some help from the City to spray around the trees some of the
weeds so the trees have a lot better cha~ce~ That's very laboY intensive.
That'.s going to t:.~ke somebody at City Hall a long time to do and accomplish ar, d
where are the trees and everything else. I guess I'm not sure Rlchard, and I
know what ti~e motive is. I'm ,et sure if that committee can do better.
Cou~ci!man Wing'- I'll be very detailed, and you may be right.
Idayor chmiel: I think we have one going. To get another commission going, I'm
not sure if the need is there as long as we can get direction from those people.
Councilman Workman; [Jsually we. have to pay somebody...but I'd like to work with
the Rotary and Rlchard's idea because lt's definitely an important topic and
that's why Tim has really put a lot of energy il~f.o it and I'd like to make sure
that he knows where th.is thing's going.
46
City Council Meeting - June 10, 1991
Mayor Chmiel: Yep. I think we can work that through staff for direction from
staff. Okay, next item.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATION: CONSULTANT SELECTION PROCESS AND FUNDING ISSUES,
SURFACE WATER MANAGEMENT PROGRAM, PLANNING DIRECTOR.
Mayor Chmiel: Paul, hit it lightly. I think we all know what it's all about.
Paul Krauss: A couple quick things. Charles and I have gone through the
initial responses. The l& responses to do our combined wetlands/water quality
water management work. We've dwindled it down to 5 and I've asked them to
prepare final proposals and then be available for interevieus a week from this
Thursday in the morning. We need some warm bodies from the Council and from the
Planning Commission to sit in on the review panel with us. We'd really like to
have a cross section of opinions from the Council and Planning Commission. We
want this to be more than a staff decision. It's real important that that be
the case because these are people that are going to be working with us for a
long time and this work is really going to have a major impact on our water
quality and wetlands for the next 10 years. So what I'm going to do is have my
secretary give everybody a call tomorrow and confirm who can be there. It
certainly is going to blow your morning and we'll give you lunch and you should
be done by early afternoon.
Mayo;' Chmiel: Don't call me, I'll be there.
Councilman Wing: You've got a secretary? As of when?
Paul Krauss: We share. There's one last thing too.
Councilman Wing: What's that date Paul?
Paul Krauss: It's a week from Thursday.
Councilwoman Dimler: The 20th. I'm going to be there so you don't have to call
me.
Councilman Wing: I will be there.
Paul Krauss: There is one last thing you need to know on the budget for the
thing. We're not asking that you change the budget or anythlng on it yet but
things aren't working out quite as we'd like and we wanted you to know about it.
We originally came in wlth the proposal for 1.7 milllon over 5 years. That was
cut to the 60% flgure which made it closer to 1.1 million or something like
that. 1.2 and that was fine. We were pretty convinced we could get the work
going and get things going and come back to you when actually things were paying
dividends and we had some deslre to get lnto other programs. What we've found
is that there was apparently a falrly heafty over projection in what the
revenues would be.
Mayor Chmiel: That was by the consultant?
Paul Krauss: Yes. By SCH. It's just that they assumed that we had more
properties or they were generating more revenues. We don't know. They trying
47
C~tM Council Msatin~.~ - ._lui~e lO, 199i
to figure that. out bu'[ after getting knocked back 60~ by the Council and now we
find out we're losing another 20~ of 30~ because of an over ostimat£on by tile
consultant as to what we get so we're really cutting it fairly thin at this
poi~'i:. Again;, we're not asking you to change it. We just want you to know
about it and as I:hings develop, we'll need to talk further.
Mayor Chmiel: ~e.'re not changing it Paul. It really is a goof on where out'
consultant came from and that's, if they had stayed consistent with where they
were, w~..' would have been in fine shape but there is a bit of a problem. I don't
expect to see LtS, make a change in that at this particular time.
Paul Krauss: No, we're not asking that.
H~,yor Chmiel: See how that works. Okay, any other discussions? If hearing
non~;, I'll 'bake ~ motio~ for adjournment.
Councilwoman Dimler: I .iust want to make one comment on the Eagan study. I
liked it and I do think we need to educate our citizens. I think that's a key
point.
Councilnlan Mason: Oh, quick comment on then.
Mayor' Chmiel: Saturday?
Councilman Mason: Well yeah.
Mayor Chmiel: Sorry, it's not on the agenda. No, go ahead.
Councilmar, Mason~ No, I wasn't even going to comment on that. The quarterly
newsletter. .~'v~; had a number of people come up and say that's a great thing.
Hayor Chmiel= Yes. I agree. I agree.
Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman ~ason seconded to adjourn the meeting.
All ~oted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. The meeting was
adjourned at 10:20 p.m..
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
48