1991 05 06m
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
MAY 6, 1991
Mayor Chmiel called the meetlng to order at 7:33 p.m.. The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Mason, Councilman Workman,
Councilman Wing and Counciluoman Dimler
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Paul Krauss, Jo Ann Olsen, Charles
Folch, Todd Gerhardt, Todd Hoffman and Scott HarK
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to
approve the agenda with an addition by Mayor Chmiel under Council Presentations
from the Administrative Section. All voted in favor of the agenda as amended
and the motion carried.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
Mayor Chmiel: The next item is a public announcement and that is a resolution
proclaiming and establishing May 19-25, 1991 as a National Public Works Week for
the Clty of Chanhassen. Whereas, public works services provided in our
community are an integral part of our citizens' everyday lives; and Whereas, the
support of an understanding and lnformed citizenry ls vital to the efficient
operation of publlc work systems and programs such as water, sewers, streets and
highways, public buildings, solid waste collection and snow removal; and
Whereas, the health, safety, and comfort of this community greatly depends on
these facilities and services; and Whereas, the quallty and effectiveness of
those facilities as well as their planning, design and construction is vitally
dependent upon the efforts and skill of publlc works officials; and Whereas, the
efficiency of the qualified and dedicated personnel who staff public works
departments ls materially influenced by the people's attitude and understanding
of the importance of. the work they perform, Now Therefore, I, Donald J. Chmtel,
by vlrtue of the authority vested in me as Mayor of the Clty of Chanhassen, do
hereby proclaim the week of May 19 through 25, 1991 as National Public Works
Week. In the Clty of Chanhassen and I call upon all cltizens and civic
organizations to acquaint themselves with the problems involved in providing our
publlc works and to recognize the contribution which publlc works officials make
every day to our health, safety and comfort. Furthermore, all citizens and
interested parties are lnvited to attend a public works open house belng held
May 23, 1991 from 2:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. at the City's public works facility
located at 1591 Park Road. Can I have a motlon?
Resolution ~91-38: Councilwoman Dtmler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
approve a Resolution proclaiming May 19-25, 1991 as 'Public Works Week' in
Chanhassen. AIl voted in favor and the motion carried.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve
the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendations:
c. Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Section 20-263 Regarding Portable Chemical
Toilets on Recreational Beachlots, Second Reading.
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
excuse to vote fo'r J.t then.
Mayor Chmiel' But that's our perogative at that particular time.
Councilwoman Dimler: That's what I'm struggling with.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. We ca~ so choose not to make that approval 'at that
partJ, cular time because it will take additional action for each of those
respective items.
Councilman Mason: To just close what I had to say, Z agree with a lot of what
Ursul,'~ is s;.tying and Z think we do need to look at some contracting out on some
thJ.~gs. However, if we're looking at potentially losing a big hunk of money
here if w~e don't get this done by the 20th of Hay and understanding what both
the Hayer and Hr. Ashworth are saying, we do. I mean they might come before us
and say we want this and we might say uell.
Counc/lwol, an Dimler: We don't have the money.
Councilman Mason: That's right and so I think it's a good idea to go through
with this but certainly keeping in mind with uhat you're saying.
Hayer Chmiel: ~nd remembering discussions that were done today.
Co~tncilman Workman: I think Ursula's continued tenancity on the budget and
trucks and cars is going to eventually pay off. However, I think the blame, and
:[ never ,,iss an opportunity, goes to the legislature. ~uite frankly I think
they think we're a bunch of idiots out here. I think my speeches on this topic
get more t~razen every year but we're not idiots and I think a large share of
cit.izens .in the State of Minnesota aren't. ~nd those are the folks that are
ut'eating th.is k.ind of wasted time at our City Council meetings monthly. We have
[.o juggle bal].s and do everything else just to get them out and I'm getting real
sick and tired of it and if the Council would like to pass another resolution.
~ letter to send to Representative Kelso and Senator Johnston to tell them to
work a lJ. ttle harder to make sure that this kind of stupidity doesn't continue
to happen. But I agree that I think ue can pass this tonight without giving up
our watchfulness on this equipment and I agree uith your comment.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay thank you Tom. I think that's a good point. The
legislature very seldom gets letters from the constituency of this city and if
everybody is sick and tired of seeing taxes going up and the positions that
they're talking about presently with the increasing of the budgets once again,
that's where your letter directly to the constituencies, and not only those that
represent us but people in other public offices that are in the house and the
senate, needs to have those letters. The trouble is that ue don't take the time
out to do it. We do from the City. From the Council and ue do write those
letters but if you don't do it, it's going to continue to happen and keep
happen.ing. ~s Tom indicated not too long ago once comes the revolution. Tax
paying. That's going to take place shortly. That's something I've said for
>,ears as well. That so~oewhere people have to take the time to revieu their
given budgets and come in with the same thing that ue have had to do uithin City
Council. ~nd I just don't mean here. I mean County. We also have to look at
the ~chool district but [he State is the place where we have to start and make
I
City Council Meeting - Hay 6, 1991
sure that they stop this. End of story. Richard, I'm sorry.
Councilman Wing: I'm going to agree with Ursula and support her position. I
thlnk all we're dolng ls juggllng dollars. And if I read the top of thls
resolution it says, resolution authorizing the issuance and sale of $280,000.00
equipment Certificate of Indebtedness. We're not paying cash. We're charging
these and I guess why incur the debt? And I agree with Ursula. If it's here
and it's funded, if lt's in thls fund, it tends to get bought and lt's difficult
to say no.
Hayor Chmiel: Well, I think if we did adopt this, it doesn't necessarily mean
that the Mayor has to put his signature on here. We may have the manager's and
maybe we could hold that accordingly but then that resolution ls available.
Don Ashworth: That's potentially a good idea.
Mayor Chmiel: So I'm strongly recommending that we move on this, although I do
fully agree with Ursula but we can still control the dollars from this
standpoint. But it ls something that in the event we don't have the dollars,
this gives us that opportunity for it. So I'd like to.
Councilman Workman: I would move approval of 1991 Certificate of Indebtedness,
Authorize Indenture.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Resolution ~91-42: Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Hason seconded to
approve the Resolution Approving Sale for 1991 Equipment Certificates. All
voted in favor except Councilwoman Dialer and Councilman Wing who opposed and
the motion carried #ith a vote of 3 to 2.
Councilwoman Dimler: For reasons as stated earlier and I think the City should
set the example of not allowing us to go further into debt.
Mayor Chmiel: Well I agree with you. I'm not disagreeing with that position
but I'm saylng that we just in case thls is.
Councilwoman Dimler: I understand that position too. It's just that the tax
payer takes precedence in my thinking right now.
Mayor Chmiel: You're right and that's where it should always be. I fully agree
and I don't thlnk there's anybody that's been ttghter with the dollar as the
bark ls on the tree than what we all have been.
VISITOR PRESENTATION: None
APPROVE FEASIBILITY REPORT; AUTHORIZE PREPARATION OF PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS
FOR WEST 79TH STREET EAST OF TH 101; PROJECT 91-8.
Charles Folch: You'll recall at the last meeting the feasibility study was
presented and at that time a representative from Rapid 011, Valvoline spoke up
that he hadn't had ample time to review the numbers that were presented. Slnce
that time, it's my understanding that he has reviewed the study and that all of
City Council Meeti~g -- May 8, 1991
the property owners involved with this improvement project are in agreement with
the assessmer~t numbers that were presented at the previous Council meeting and
if there are no further questions or concerns raised tonight concerning this
project, I would again recommend that authorization for preparation of plans and
specifications of the project.
Councilman Workmal): I would move approval.
Mayor Chmiel: Before we do, can I have a second?
Councilwoman Dimler: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Is there anyone wishing to address
this at this particular time?
Rill Madden: Just briefly Mr. Mayor. I'm Bill. Madden with Valvoline Instant
0il Change and 01rector of Real Estate for the company. It's my understanding
that the counsels for both Valvoline Instant Oil Change and the City have been
in negotiations and completed the documentation on thls. There's only one
remaining minor lssue in corlnection wlth it that I know of at thls tlme and
that's a very minor discrepancy in the legal descriptions. That one adopted by
the Clty and one that's furnished by the surveyor for Valvoline Instant 011
Change. Once that's completed, the documentation is pretty much in order and
ready to proceed.
Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Thank you. Is there anyone else?
Resolution ¢91-43: Councilman aorkman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded
ordering the improvement project and authorizing the preparation of plans and
specifications for improvements to 7gth Street east of Trunk Highway 10t/Great
Plains Boulevard; Project No. 91-8. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously.
YOUTH COHHISSION PRESENTATION, GREG SHANK AND STEPHANIE YOUNG.
Stephanie Young: Greg Shank and I are here on behalf of the Youth commission
committee. Appeared in front of you a little over a year ago. I notice two new
members sitting here. I'm wondering if you have sufficient background by virtue
of the letter that I sent out. Dld you receive a letter?
Councilman Wing: That's the only background.
Stephanle Young: Would you prefer to have additional background?
Councilman Wing: At this time? Mr. Mayor, I let you make the decision.
Hayor Chmiel: Sure.
Stephanie Young: okay. I'll just give a short overvlew of what the committee
has done and what we wisl~ to do and then we'll answer any questions that you may
have. By way of a short history. In 1988 Community Education Dlstrict ¢112
applied for and received a grant from the State of Minnesota. It was 50 cents
per caplta for youth development funds. They then drafted a youth development
City Council Heeting - Hay &, 1991
plan which provided for basically provided for youth a positive environment in
which to grow up. Several groups spun off this to implement the major aspects
of this plan. There were 4 major aspects. One was curriculum development in
the area of youth issues. Another one was a research center. The third one was
the values committee that you are probably most famlllar wlth. They've made
several presentations I believe in front of this group and then the fourth was
the establishment of a youth commission whlch was envisioned rlght from the
start as being the permanent ongolng vehicle to provide the continuity and the
coordination among the communities and the agencies. We have got together over
many sesslons to discuss just what form the commission should take and what
goals it might shoot for. We've drafted proposed By-laws which I brought on my
original presentation. To facilitate the accomplishment of these goals we
proposed at that time a 3/4 time staff person, a paid staff person to
coordinate. Compile data. To meet with all the agencies serving youth in the
whole dlstrlct and to feed information lnto a computer. Oo the necessary 1rems.
We planned at that time and did request funds based on a per capita figure from
each of the partles to the agreement. Those being the four ¢ltles, the school
district and Carver County to basically pay for what would be the ooordinator's
salary. We presented thls to the varlous parties during the preliminary budget
time for them which is about the same time that the State decided to decrease
lt's money to the clties. After more thought, over a year's tlme, what we've
done ls we've streamlined our proposal. Went back to the drawing board. We
tried to save the orlglnal vlslon of the youth commission but to establish
realistic goals for a commission that didn't have a paid staff person. What we
have here, as you can see in the letter of understanding, ls pragmatic and we
feel doable. Without the paid staff person, obviously it's golng to take more
tlme to accomplish what the commission originally had as far as goals. But just
by virtue of it's getting up and running, some of these goals can be in place
right from the start. The advocacy for youth area and to provlde input for
planning and goals and policies for youth development and activities. Thts
would be an agency that would advocate. It would also act in an advisory
capacity to any organization or any of the parties who would wish the youth
lnput. At a later date, as soon as posslble wlth an all volunteer group, some
of the other aspects could be put into place. One being to work ¢ollaboratively
wlth youth. To glve them a volce in thelr community and identifying needs and-
programs. To work with youth serving agen¢ie~ and service~ to avoid duplication
and respond to identified and unmet needs. What we have there 1~ we determined
after looklng at the whole scenario regarding youth that there appeared to be a
lot of duplication of effort withln the county. You mlght have 2 or more
agencies covering the same area for perhaps suicide prevention. That's just an
example. And we felt that by the youth commission gettlng up and runnlng and
then getting a bead on what was out there, that we could offer our services in
trying to avoid this type of duplication and the expense of dollar~ that maybe
dldn't need to be spent. So those are areas that will move a 11ttle slower but
wlll be achleved in tlme. I guess I don't need to really go down the goals
here. I've talked about the purpose. The mission is to provide youth an
environment in whlch they can make good decisions and are valued and actlve
participants of the community. I think you will see from that statement that
what we want ls going to be good for ¢lties. It's going to be good for counties
and school district too but after all, these kids grow up. They become the
citizenry and lt's always better to have a citizenry that's gotten that good
base on good decision making. Greg, do you want to talk more about the format7
C.(f.y Council. Heetillg - Hay (,, 1991
G'r'eg Shank: Thank you Stephanie. Appreciate the opportunity to speak to
Ch,.~nhassen city CouncJ, 1 I)rJ. efly on f, his. We're going to get right to the
polnt. Yo~t do have a chart that we distributed wlth the background letter of
~znderstanding. It looks like this. If you want to take a quick look at that. l
just wanted to point out a couple things about that to avoid any
m.i. sinterpretation of the information that's presented there. This does not
represe~][ an organizationa.1, chart first of a11. All this is trying to do is
show somo relationships. As ,~ program that has come out of a mandate from the
State through the Youth DeveJ. opment and Youth Services levy that Stephanie spoke
to, th.ts does not again show organization relationships but just, of' I should
,,';ay an organizational chart but it shows relationships between these different
organJ, zations. Zf you'll, just take a look at the youth commission which is kind
of at the hub of the different organizations and how they relate to that. You'll
.-see community education as a direct line to the youth development program. Again
that goes back to the State mandate issues. You go all the way to the right
st~.l,.; and Stephanie talked about some of ~he areas that were incorporated into
that youth development plan initially that allowed the district to levy the 50
c~?nts tha( Stephan.te referred to. Community values was one of those and it's
p'robably been the most vJ. sib].e and effective activity in the area of youth
developmer, b plan so faT-. I mighL say that they are working very vigorously
right now in plan~in9 another annual event 'for next year and to keep this focus
on values. Below that the youth issues is another area that was part of the
youth cleve.l, opment plan that was presented to the state. And the last component
was the resource coordination activity which is down towards the bottom. Right
now there's not very much gOil]9 01] in terms of that activity but it certainly is
,.~ focus for the plan itself. The other boxes are trying to describe ethel'
cooperating agencies and youth serving organizations and also to underline some
of the activities that are gOil]g on in the schools as well. The youth service
component, the youth learning service. Trying to encourage youth to get
involved in volunteer opportunities is taking place in a number of different
w~ys ill the district, including being evaluated in terms of curriculum. That's
what the PER is, the plan~ing evaluation and reportil~g requirements laid out by
the State and one of the mandates in that area is youth service learning. We
have ~t number of :]roups within the district that are already asking students to
get involved, either for partial credit for class or Z particularly like the
group, the Student Council Subcommittee on Service in that they're just doing it
for the sake of doing it. it's kJ. nd of nice. And they're really working at
trying to make that go. Home school partnerships. Developing the parent 11ason
concept. Parent involvement in the schools. Strengthening the home school
partnership teams is ali. a very strong focus right now in terms of supporting
the youth development effort. And of course parent education based on the early
childhood family education model and trying to expand that and making those
services available to the K-12 parents as well through programs such as the
Teamwork J.n Education which were sponsored twice this year by the Chaska
Education Association in cooperation with the school organizations have been
very successful. I guess with that I would just refer you back to the letter of
Ltnders[anding very quickly in terms of the make-up of the membership. We are
cum.trig to each organization that we are asking to be a part of this agreement
~nd SLtggn:sting that .if you do agree and come along with us on t hls 1dee, that we
wou.l.d ,.ask that you would ,~ppoirlt one youth and one adult that would help to
represent this community and would help make up the commission. _~t's very clear
th~tt yol~l:h must be ;.~ p,art of this process to make it successful, and we look
forward to answering any questions or respond to any lssues you might have.
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
Mayor Chmiel: I have just one. AI was reading the letter of understanding
within the mission statement portion. I'm just trying to make a grammatical
change and it will fit. Provide youth and environment which they can make.
Rather than using good, use intelligent decisions rather than using and after
that, use the word that are valued and active and participants of the community.
Stephanie Young: 00 you feel that good is too much...
Mayor Chmiel: I think the youth of our community are intelligent and they make
intelligent decisions.
Stephanie Young: We were hoping as far as the last part of that sentence to
mean that there...and active participants of the community so that's why we put
and in there.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Two ands in the very close proximity to each other.
That's the reason I sald that are valued rather than and are valued. But just a
suggestion. I'm not saying it's cast in stone.
Councilman Mason: I like the intelligent because good really is, I mean a good
decislon to you mlght be a bad one to me but I think the polnt, as an educator
myself, is that we are teaching the kids to make intelligent decisions based on
what the knowledge they have. I think that's a real good polnt.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion? Ursula.
Councilwoman Oimler: Greg you said, I wasn't quite sure. You said this program
was mandated by the State.
Greg Shank: Okay. Not mandated. The State provides the opportunity for school
districts to be involved in youth development. The mandate comes to the
curriculum. I was referring to the curriculum part.
Councilwoman Oimler: Okay. Oh, they're not mandating the program? That's
optional. Okay.
Greg Shank: No. You must prepare youth development plan.
Councilwoman Dimler: That's why usually when they mandate they don't provide
funds and Z was going to ask you if they provided some funds for you or not?
No? You're saying no? No funds from the State?
Greg Shank: No. Local funds only.
Councilwoman Oimler: Okay, but what will this come down to in dollars for each
city?
Stephanie Young: That's...
Councilwoman Oimler: Oh really7 That's great. First time I've heard that.
Mayor Chmiel: It's not going to affect our budget.
City Council Meeting .- May 6, 1991
Greg Shank: As Stepl'lanie pointed out, one of the big difficulties was when the
origlnal plan was put together, is that it was very elaborate and involved in
some rather expensive staffing patterns a~ld ue just came back and looked at it
when the cities came under the dollar crunch and said, we shouldn't just give it
up. We've got a good plan and ue have good tilings happening. We have good
community involvement of people such as Stephanie Young and her' committee who
are made up of ali. communities. I mean they make my job easy. I've only been
around a short time in this and they've been ushering this through for 2 or 3
years now.
Councilwoman Dimler; That's great. Z know ue supported you last year and I
didn't realize (hat you don't need money fol' materials or anything.
Greg Shank: We're planning to make it go with the volunteer group and to use
the 50 cent levy to give some support for those incidental costs and see if we
can't get .it rolling. I think a point that Stephanie made before and discussion
about this is that one of the benefits of a collaborative agreement like this is
that it's encouraging to other funders to seek communities and organizations
working together like tll~s and it probably, if at some point we determine that
some dolJ. ars ~re needed, we can probably put together a grant that I would guess
most people tha~. are signers of this letter of understanding would support and
that might give us the do.liars.
Mayor Chmiel: Basically s~pporting the value system that we've ~lready
established with them.
Stephanie Young: Chaska has signed. If there is a wording change, they've got
their letter which is almost exactly the same a what you have in front of you
and also Carver as of tonight has signed. We go to Victoria on the 1&th. So
what we've requested is that you consider this and...
Councilman Workman: I wou].d move approval of such.
Councilwoman Dimler: Second.
Councilman Workman moved, Counc£1uoman Dimler seconded to approve the Letter of
Understanding for the District 11~ Commission on Youth. All voted in favor and
the motion carrled unanimously.
Greg Shank: T'd like to, again I'm going to congratulate a second time tonight,
Stephanle on the work of her and her committee because they've really done an
outstanding job.
Mayor ChmJ. el: Job well done. Thank you Stephanie.
PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE g.14 ACRES INTO 14 SINGLE FANILY LOTS, LOCATED
NORTH OF HIGHWAY 5 ON TH 101, KURVERS POINT SECOND ADDITION, VANDOREN HAZARD
STALLINGS.
Jo Ann Olsen: This was reviewed by the Planning Commission on the 17th. The
applicant ls proposing tile second addition for Kurvers Point. When this was
flrst approved by the Clty Council, the second addltlon was to contaln a
secondary access onLo TH 101. Not surprfsing, this is where most of the
10
City Council Heeting - Hay 6, 1991
discussion has been between staff and the applicant and also at the public
hearing in front of the Planning Commission. The rest of the plat is pretty
straight forward. Staff has no objection to it but ue did have an objection to
replacing the secondary access to TH 101 with a cul-de-sac. We feel pretty
strongly that you do need to have that secondary access to TH 101 to allow for
emergencies and for safety for the neighborhood. The applicant and the
neighbors obviously feel pretty strongly the other way. That they prefer to
live on a cul-de-sac. At the Planning Commission, that's where most of the
discussion surrounded. We had several different alternatives to the cul-de-sac
and to the thru street and that included a right-in/right-out only. Included
shifting it further to the south and essentially what came down at the Planning
Commission was recommending denial of the proposed plan for the cul-de-sac by a
3 to 2 vote. After that it was felt by the Planning Commission, the ones that
did deny it that if there was an emergency access provided in addition to the
cul-de-sac, that they probably would have approved it. $o staff, when we spoke
with the applicant, did request that they do pursue the emergency access and
they have not come forward with that. I think that they are still just pursuing
the cul-de-sac. I'm not sure if they have a plan for the emergency access.
Staff is still supporting the secondary access onto the TH 101. That's still
our recommendation. If the City Council does decide to go with the cul-de-sac,
ue are recommending that at the very least the emergency access also be
provided. In addition, in working with MnOot, if the proposed plan is approved,
that means that all of the 40 lots will be using the one existing access. Due
to that they will have to go back through and receive another permit from MnDot.
That first permit for the access was approved just for the first phase. As part
of that, the City is recommending that improvements be made to that access. At
this time it's not very well designed to handle that much traffic. In fact that
was a point brought up by the residents at this time that the intersection is
not all that safe. So ue are going to be requiring that improvements be made to
TH 101 in the form of turn lanes and by-pass lanes. With that I know that
there's lots of residents who wish to speak but we are recommending denial of
the proposed plan. We do have a list of conditions should the cul-de-sac plan be
approved and that does include providing emergency access and improvements to TH
101 intersections.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Jo Ann. Is there anyone wishing to address this item
at this tlme?
Scott Harri: Good evening Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. My name is Scott
Harri and I represent the Kurvers Land Company and the proposal before you this
evening. What I'd 11ke to do is to tell you that both Me1Kurver and Frank
Kurver are here along with sons Paul and Craig to answer any questions that you
may have in conjunction with this proposal. But when the Kurver famlly decided
to develop their land in 1987 they had made a conscience decision to create a
unique neighborhood of high quality homes. The orlginal slte plan was deslgned
to meet these goals while respecting the land forms and vegetation patterns on
the site, including exlstlng wetlands and Lotus Lake. The second addition to
Kurvers Point ls now being presented. Phase 2 retains the original goals but
also reflects 4 years of market and development experience. The second phase
now represents the addition to an existing neighborhood rather than the creation
of a new residential area. The original slte plan had called for 15 lots in
phase 2 with an average lot size just over 23,000 square feet. In response to
the market, the second phase ls now proposed. Features larger lots with an
11
City Council He,d. ting .. Nay 6, 1991
emphasis eT, the creation of lots with the ability to build and construct
walkouts. As presented, the second phase now contains 14 lots of which 10 can
accommodate a walkout construction. In addition to reacting to the market
concerns, the new plan also reflects tile concerns of the existing residents who
have comstructed homes in phase 1. The Kurvers Point Homeowners Association has
prey.tried input into the planning process for Phase 2. Tl~eir primary concerns
revolve around the safety and traffic issues. Correspondingly the local road
system has been changed to establish two new cul-de-sacs being presented with
this plan. Consistent with Phase 1, the second addition of Kurvers Point is
being presented without ti,r?, need for any variance or modification from the
minimum zoning standards. The project continues to vastly exceed all minimum
zoning criteria in pursuit of a high ame~]ity, high quality residential
neighborhood. The staff has prepared a detailed report concerning this project
and I'd lik~; to dwell a few minutes on some of those conditions of which 3o Ann
briefly spoke to a couple of 'them just a few minutes ago. The first item
concerns th(; development of an emerge~]cy access. Be acknowledge that that was
some of the comments prepared. The Kurvers have spent some time reviewing this
item but if it's your pleasure to approve the subdivision with an emergency
access which we would hope would not be one of the conditions approved this
~..,vel~ing, w.'~, woul. d like some further definition as to what you would consider an
emergency access as faf' as constructability and the feasibility of this thing.
We have some thoughts on that but hopefully that won't be a condition to
approval of the subdlvisior,. The second item pertains to Kurvers Point Road
i~tersectio~ with TH 10.~.. In talking with a number of people from HnDot, there
.is a little bit of confusion. In your packet there's a letter stating one thing
and talking to the permit people at HnBot they state quite the opposite
regarding whether any future improvements would be needed at this time if all
the lots were ~.o come out at one access. But what we need to keep in mind is
currently at the intersection of Kurvers Points Road with TH 101 there is a
right turn lane. There is a by-pass lane and there is a large radius
acceleration lane. All three geometric features that Jo Ann had mentioned
earlier that HnDot wou].d be looking to create at this intersection so that
infrastructure is in place right now. We would 'further request the Council to
remove the requirement for the second access as part of the development contract
that was agreed upon with the first phase as more of a housekeeping item.
A~,other item 4, we'd like to clarify in the conditions. The new lake access for
I. ots 4 and 5. This would really, we'd like to broadened this out to all lots
that would be lake lots. Those tots would have to receive sewer service from
the lake area sewer. Not the sewer' in the street and to get down there, a path
wou].d llave to be excavat~.d to install the sewer pipe. We would like to at the
time of builrling permit to come in and work out the alignment to minimize
disturbance to trees, steep grades and other factors that I think item 4 in ti~e
conditions was intended to address right here but to allow the builder and the
property owner some flexibility in selecting that. Lastly, with regards to
this, again just a clarification. Item number 19, trail fees or the discussion
of them. It was approved and the procedure with the first addition that the
builder at time of building permit would pay for the trail fees. Not the
developer so we'd like some of these things incorporated if it's your pleasure
to approve. But what I'd like to do is talk a little bit more about the
specifics of the development experience gained from the past 4 years to help you
best understand the proposal before you tonight and the factors needed by Kurver
Laird Company to keep this a high quality neighborhood. Firstly, the builders
coming in here needed to have lots that would be at least 10 foot wider at the
12
City Council Meeting - May &, 1991
setback line. We have accomplished thls and the result ls if you've seen, ls
going from 15 lots down to 14 lots to accommodate that particular provision.
Secondly, it became extremely apparent and a keen lnterest by not only the
builders and perspective homeowners but some that elected not to build tn this
subdivision, that screening along TH 101 was a very important key element to the
success of this neighborhood. For both noise and visual impacts. In
conjunction wlth thls project we are proposing a berm to run the full length
along the east side of the subdivision between TH 101 and the plat to provide,
at least mltigate some of the vlsual and the nolse lmpacts. It would be a break
in the berm such as would be created by the construction of a new street and a
new access out here would severely dlmlnish the effectiveness of the berm
screening ability for both noise and visual impacts. Also the Kurvers Point
Homeowners Association prefers an atmosphere of a cul-de-sac neighborhood, and
perhaps a lot of people do but what that does is it brings along the idea and
the soundness of securlty and traffic safety that these klnds of neighborhoods
provide. They end up being a very tight knit type of neighborhood. Hence this
is what propelled the Kurver Lane Company to develop the proposal you have
before you as far as two cul-de-sac streets. The majority of the builders are
agaln looking for walkout lots and cul-de-sac lots. I mentioned this earlier.
10 of the 14 lots can accommodate walkout construction. 2 of the 14 lots can
accommodate side look out type of lots so almost all of the 14 lots can
accommodate what builders are looking for. There have been serious concerns
expressed over negatlve trafflc lmpacts by the property owner just adjacent to
and south of the second addition. When the first addition was being reviewed
and approved by the Counc11, thls proposal before you wlthout the access in that
location would definitely mitigate their concerns in this thing. The Kurvers
Polnt Second Addltlon agaln ls consistent with other developments approved by
the City. For instance when we talk about, perhaps the main issue here as far
as cul-de-sac length and number of lots. In doing a real quick overvlew from
the city map, Choctaw Circle is 1,650 feet long with 45 lots in a subdivision.
Fox Path ls over 2,000 feet long and has 49 lots on it. Big Horn Drive is 1,400
feet and it has 33 lots. What we're proposing here is a 41 lot subdivision with
approximately 1,650 foot cul-de-sac. This concludes my remarks and I'll repeat
that it's our request that you recommend approval of the second phase of Kurvers
Point thls evening. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone else who would like to address this
particular lssue?
Doug McLean: I would. I'm Doug McLean and I live at 7280 Kurvers Point Road.
I got involved in the neighborhood about a year ago when I wanted to move in and
I spoke with Me1 and Frank Kurvers and have recently bought a house in there and
it was because of the neighborhood that I bought. I bought a neighborhood that
was quiet and prlvate. I bought a neighborhood that had a cul-de-sac on it and
I thought it was going to be another cul-de-sac. The traffic in there, if tt
goes to be a thru street, that's what you're proposing is a thru street, wlll
double the traffic. That traffic that's being doubled has no business being tn
there. Don't want to be in there and in fact is in there by mistake. They
would generally come off of Ualley View Road. Stop at the intersection not
knoulng which way to go. We currently have a slgn that says dead end and it
tells people go right or left if you're going north or south. Without, if you
put a thru street there, you'll put a whole bunch of people in there that really
are making a mistake going into a private neighborhood. I also wi11 mention
City CouncJ.]. Neet. lng '- May 6, 1991
that the people going ill there from the neighborhood generally drive 20 mph.
The people who are just passing through generally go 40 mph because they think
they're going someplace. They're not going anyplace. They're going to right
now which is a cul-de-sac. You're proposing a thru street. If ue do a thru
street, ghat we're really doing is proposing another left or right hand turn at
the crest of a street for ali. these people who made a mistake. It doesn't make
a lot of sense. They're coming up and they'll go up to TH 101 and have to
decide whe[her to go rJ. ght of' left again. Zs that right?
Jo Ann Olsen: The same as they would to get out of the original access.
Doug McLean: Right. They'd he making the decision twice to cross TH 101 that
they thought they were going someplace. They're not going anyplace. It's a
private neighborhood. The next thing I'd like to propose is that making that
emergency access is just that. hn emergency. There will be emergencies there
at the second access. It's at the crest of a hill. People will be deciding to
go left or right and some car's going to be coming over the crest of that hill
and there won't be enough time. It's not a very good place to have a second
entrance to any neighborhood. Right now the improved access is fine. The
sr. reet traffic .ts probably half of what it's going to be if you make it a thru
street. So if you want twice as many people making a decision to cross TH 101,
T. mean that's the right decision. T_f you don't, leaving it a cul-de-sac is the
~ight decision. I'd also propose that, I had two little kids coming through
h~.,.re. They're 4 and 7. They have their own agenda. We'd rather have the
t. raffjc going 20 mph than 40 mph and I'd also rather have the right to run out
and see which car just burned through the neighborhood like happened last week
when we; saw '[he drag street type thing happen. That I'd like to have them have
f.o come back through the neighborhood to catch his license number. If you make
this a thru street, we can't even do that. ~nother thing I'd like to mention is
a division of power between the federal, state, county ,zed local governments
which you eluded to tonight in your proposition 2(h). That indeed we have the
r.tgl~t and the sense that what is right to be made at the local level on the
smallest division should be made at the lowest level possible. That's the
people it £nvolves. There are 42 people, or neighbors. Probably ~40 total
people that would prefer it the other way when this neighborhood goes complete.
Rigl~t now it seems to me that somebody else is trying to make that decision.
think in the youth planning thing too they mentioned that the intelligence of
the people should prevail. Z see no reason that this is any other discussion
than ghat it is about among the local people. It's not a city thing. It's not
a big issue. It doesn't involve anybody out of the neighborhood and the
neighborhood wishes it this way. Unless I'm wrong, the neighbors would prefer
it this way. as a single street. One cul-de-sac. It's not unsimilar to
anything else that's been done around here. Thank you.
Councilman Mason: With all due respect, certainly I understand Mr. McLean's
concern for having a cul-de-sac and if I was in him position, I'd want one too.
I think however to say that the only people that are concerned about it are the
people that ].ive in your cul-de-sac is incorrect. I think the Planning
commission, the [)irector of Pla)~ning, everyone up here is concerned about what
we think Js best for the city. And there are time when we unfortunately have to
weigh if you will one neighborhood against another or it may not be the best for
this neighborhood but it's best for the overall city. I guess ~ don't want to
::.~t~.p on your toes but .~ think you're coming out making some fairly strong
14
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
accusations. I quite honestly am open to whatever goes on here tonight. In
fact quite honestly I'm still not sure how I feel about this but I think you're
mistaken when you claim that you 40 people in the neighborhood are the only
people that are concerned about the issue.
Doug McLean: It'd be a mistake to think that I was saying that we're the only
ones concerned about it. I know you're concerned about it. I was saying that I
think that concern should lie with the people who it involves. I haven't heard
an argument from the City Planning Commission or anybody else that says what
we'd like is so wrong. I'm saying this as an individual person but I don't
think that any of the other neighbors prefer the thru street. I haven't heard
of an argument for the thru street that has anything b'ut "our safety in mind'
and I think it should be left to us to decide what we think is best, right for
our safety. I think that the fact that doubling the traffic in our area for the
thru street and all those people in there really didn't want to be there. It's
kind of a mistake that they're there. It's not like they're, you know they're
welcome to come in. It's not a problem that way but to double the mistake twice
and make them cross TH 101 twice and try to improve two entrances instead of one
when our neighborhood isn't any larger than anybody else's neighborhood I just,
what are we planning for?
Councilman Wing: Paul, why didn't you address the traffic issue? Is this a
subjective statement, it's going to double the traffic? I don't know where this
double trafflc is comlng from.
Paul Krauss: The neighborhood has made a lot of ascertions that people
mlstakening enter thls neighborhood, shooting across TH 101. I don't doubt that
that's the case. I don't know if people are trying to find a way to the lake or
they're just making a mistake but I can't believe anybody would do it more than
once. It doesn't go anywhere. And even if it's a connecting street back out to
TH 101, it becomes a longer route than TH 101. You're going to have to wait for
traffic on TH 101 again. Again, it makes no sense for anybody to come in there
unless you live in the neighborhood. What is golng to double the traffic ls
doubling the number of homes. There's no doubt that that's going to generate
400 trlps a day total in and out of thls development. Now that's nobody else
coming in. That's just the houses that are in there. As to the other concerns,
again it just doesn't make sense. Trafflc engineering, it just doesn't make
sense that people are transiting this neighborhood. We can't believe it's going
to be a significant number of cars.
Councilman Wing: Is that statement of doubling traffic just your opinion?
Doug McLean: It's my oplnion based on the fact that we see what happens. That
Valley View Road has wandered for 12-14 miles. People have gone through 5 or 6
stop signs and they pass through the next one. We're a direct T through and
they just keep coming in there. They are looking to see what's happening at the
lake and that and that's not a significant thing but my question to you is, the
second entrance is not ali that safe of an entrance and it's 40 people coming
and going from the same street is not a problem. We aren't the problem. We
think that the problem is increasing the amount of traffic in and out of a
neighborhood and doubling the speeds and not being able to decide for ourselves
what we want. You spoke of making an intelligent decision with your State
15
City Council. Meeting Hay g, 1991
legislators. We'd like to make our intelligent decision [or the people living
in our commtt~ity.
Mayor Chmiel: I thJ. r,k what's being discussed and I sat in at the Planning
commission meeting. Prior to having them put a dead end sign up, they were
cont. inaously coming straight ahead because they anticipated that there was
probably another outlet or it went thr'ough. With that sign that had gone up, it
had deterred the amount of flow of traffic from coming in. But there are some
people that just don't pay attention to a sign tzntil they once maybe get past it
or into the part.~cular area unfortunately. But there probably was some total
amo~Lnt of vehicles coming in that area because of Eden Prairi~.;'s road that is
there and J.t is, I sometimes take that myself when there's congestion on TH 5.
It's a good road to take and you do take the back side. It has probably caused
a p'rob.l, em but since the sign's gone in it's alleviated a lot of that given
prob].el, as well.
Doug McLean: Would the sign have to be removed if it was a thru street?
Hayer Chmiel: Who knows. Yes sir.
Ken ~estenberg: My ~ame is Ken Westenberg. I live at 7150 Willou Piew Cove.
I'd .like to try to clarify at least ~,y concerns and I think the concerns of my
~eighbors as to the i,~pact of this second entrance. When you commute to work
like we do, you sec; ~.hese things happening during the commuting times. I have
personally witnessed repeatedly people coming up Valley View. Stopping at the
stop sign. If there's one or two car's in front of them a~,d they're ail trying
to make left ha,d turns, the gt]y in the er, d, I've seen this happen several
times, will pull to the right. Shoot across the road. Bo a fast few tur,s on
our street. Then come back and make a right hand turn and be able to circumvent
the two cars that were .in front of him. I've seen this happen time after time.
hnd that's the. reason we say, you put the street through, these people are going
to shoot across. Go down, around the street and then make that right hand turn
and pass by all these cars that were sitting in front of them. hnd they're
going to do i~ at ,'.z high rate of speed. I witnessed one instance where a guy
shot across the road, sl~d his car around with my 5 year old son standing 10
feet away from I~im at thc; stop sign waiting to get picked up by the school bus.
This is the ki,d of frustration these people have when they come through there.
You talk about safety considerations. Things about a second access in times of
tornadoes or' fires and stuff. I'll take my chances with those things. What I'm
scared to death with are these frustrated drivers driving in this manner uith
sma.ll kids standing right there, 30 feet from TH 101 at the bus stop. ~nd this
is happening at the same time these kids are standing there. The commuting
times coincide with the bus stops and that's my big concern. Now obviously we
all feel very strongly about this because we could be home watching the hockey
game but this is a very important matter to us and we'd like to have our
considerations considered.
Mayor' Chmiel: You should be sitting on our side. We have TV's here.
Public: What's the score?
Councilwoman Dimler: North Stars are ahead by i.
16
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
Councilman Mason: At 7:25 it was i to nothing, Minnesota.
Bill Chirell: Hi. Hy name is Bill Chirell. I just moved in here about 6 weeks
ago. I haven't even met all my neighbors. I'll probably get the opportunity
tonight because I do a lot of traveling but I do appreciate their concern. My
wife and I are both empty nesters. Our 4 children are back east in college or
married with children but I've got to tell you, it is a peaceful community. An
awful lot of kids. I had to make an adjustment moving into that street.
Watching out for kids and going extremely slow because I had the tendency of
driving a little fast again because I'm not from that kind of a neighborhood.
In fact I didn't think I was moving into that kind of a neighborhood until we
got there. But I do appreciate, having 4 kids I do appreciate their concerns
because I was there at one time in my life and I wouldn't want the traffic that
this thing is going to cause and the kind of neighborhood that has been created
by the Kurvers and the builders there. Also, economically I think you're making
a mistake. For a town to take prime property like that and not take advantage
of the tremendous tax base that you have in the future for that thing. I don't
think this is a choice at all. I think it's a very simple decision in terms of
safety. I think you've got more risk of children being injured by automobiles
than you do from the need from fire trucks to get in or firemen not knowing
which road to take. And economically I don't think you have a decision at all.
Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Appreciate it. Anyone else?
Mel Kurvers: I'm Mel Kurvers. I'm not going to get into what they just said. I
thlnk enough of that's been sald. All ! want to say is when we started thls
project we put a lot of work into it. A lot of time. We wanted to have
something we were proud of. We think we've done that. We've asked for no
variances in this project and I think the project has turned out real good.
We'd like to develop the second phase as we dld the first. Comments from the
people that are living there, you've heard those. They like it. They'd like to
see it that way. We agaln are asklng for no variances in this project. We're
willing to work with the staff on the conditions but some of such are different
from other projects that we feel are not fair. We think that we should be
treated like other developers that have been. I guess with that, I don't have
anythlng else unless you have some questions of me. Those are my comments.
Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Appreciate it. Thank you Mel. I go along basically with what
you're saying. It's a very credible addition that you did put in with the first
phase and with the second one now comlng in. Even with that change and lt's
sort of unique to the area as well. Even though people realize that there is a
lake there, the proposal as to what you're showing with the cul-de-sac and
lowering it from previously what was shown on the drawings with the first phase,
you're looklng at 15 lots. Even cut it back a lot whlch I 11ke. You've been
mentioning some of the other areas within the city. It is a length that's
comparable to what's existing. In fact some of it's shorter. I'm not sure
either whether the real solution to the proposal of having another access out to
TH 101 is the rlght thing to do either. I know that a lot of consideration has
been put into this. A lot of thought as to possibly making it better and yet
havlng the trafflc flow just come into that development, people are going to
drive in. They're going to drive in anyway but there might be some frustration
17
£il:y (JOWl'IcJ.l_ Meeti_ng --I'tay 6, :1.991
once '[.hey (Io find out Lhat I. here's no way out and they're zapping around and
corn.ting back out as quJ. ckty ~s they c,'zn. To get back onto TH ZOZ to go where
they're ~ntend~ng to go ~ the f~r~t pZace. But Z guess as ~ see thZs, one of
the ~hings that probably has been some discussion by the Planning Commission
wi. th that 3 to 2 vote and I'm sure they all basically agreed with the proposal
except for that emergency access. I think that some of the things that ue
unfortunately as Council have to l()ok at to see how, in the event of a tornado,
storm, lightning, whatever, how ue have ~o provide that access with emergency
~ehicles in the event that it were to happen. If a tree were to go across that
ro~d, there's no way that ~hey could poss.[big circumvent going around it other
than of course driving onto ].a~ns. But I thJ. nk that if ue were to look at ~his
to see if there has bee)~ some co),sideration for that access, ~ think this is
something that ue have to look at the rest of those residents within. I know
you ca)) say Lh~tt you probably could forego some of those things but in the event
th~:tt an emergency was there, to be able to have that to come into the location
of wherever it i~, I think it's something that probably should be looked at. I'm
not saying it's absolutely necessary but I think that at least when I'm sitting
back Czm]d 3_istening to some of the people indicate their concerns, both from as I
said, Planning Commission and Council, that was one of the things and I think
you've done an exceptional job. Zn fact if ue had all developers just like you,
ue uou].dn't have any problems and ue appreciate the effort that you've put into
the city. OnJ. y becausc you've lived here all your lives and that"s sort of neat
in itself. I'd like to throw this back to Council to see if there's any
additJ, on,~l fr~elJ, ngs and if ~here's anyone el. se that would like aL this time yet
to make ~ formal presentation, we'd be more than happy to listen to it. Seeing
none, Tom?
Co~t~(.'.J. lman Workman: Hr. Mayor, I appreciate your compromise position. In a 'few
minuS, es I myse.tf will have ,& bit of business before the City Cour, cil and so I'm
9cilag to get a taste of what it feels like to be under the thumb of differing
opin.i, ons perhaps and .it's noL always friendly I can tell you. But it's good [or
me. It's healthy for me to put myself in that position because Z can understand
how t. he people ,zt Kurvers Point feel, Haybe a little helpless and why are ue
discussing this at such great length and why isn't it simple? Z think it's
s.[~opJ, e. I'm currently, or temporarily on the housing market looking for a
bigger home and probab].y not as big as Kurvers Point out there but I'm looking f
for a ho~oe, hr, d when I look for a home I look for one on a cul-de-sac, That
.is what I'd like. I'd lJ. ke a walkout on a cul-de-sac and I'd like it to be nice
.xnd big. Kurvers Point is a great neighborhood like all the great neighborhoods
we have in the cJ. ty. It's got character onto itself. But ue can't aake every
ne.[ghborhood 100~ safe. ~e once knew a councilmember that served with us that
thought jf you put a s.ideualk all over people's yards, then that made it 100~
safe. We didn't buy that and so we didn't go along wilt, it, Since I've been on
the Council ue have uorked to limit, certainly specifically TH 101, ~e've
worked to limit the number of entrances and accesses onto TH lO1. The number,
J.f yott look and I was at the Planning Commission meeting and somebody said 25
years ;igc. If you looked at the history of this neighborhood over 25 years with
a c].t~sed end cul-de-sac, the number of maybe accidents, tragedies, medicals,
rites, they would be so few compared to the hundreds of near accidents,
accJ. dents a day [hat another access would probably create. If you're on top of
[he hill that's probably, I think so~ebody said that's not the place to put one.
]. thJ. nk that probably is the place to put it but I thJ. nk we need to put, and I'd
lik¢~ to somehow work into some sort of a motion ton.ight that maybe a stop sign
~8
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
or other mechanism for allowing the people on Ualley ¥iew to get in and out of
Ualley Uiew because I've blindly gone across after sleeping through all the stop
signs through Eden Pralrie and everything else. T have gone across there. T
have done that and it's kind of funny because I thought gee, how many people
could be that stupid you know.
Councilwoman Dimler: That's what I was going to ask.
Councilman Workman: Because you wouldn't often make that mistake twice so Z'm
not sure how these people keep. Didn't I say, maybe the legislature's right.
They can tax and spend us because we're all a bunch of... So I think we are
making this a very nice amenity by keeping it closed and I had a nice discussion
with Frank and again it's my bias, my business bias. They're the developers and
we've seen developers come through here that have not always been completely
honest with us. I think Frank and Me1 are and in conjunction with what the
neighborhood wants, I think we're getting the best product for this neighborhood
by closing it. Now that doesn't mean that there's not a risk that a tornado or
a fire or some kid swallows a marble or Z could go on and on but I think by
keeping it closed it retains the integrity of the neighborhood and that's kind
of what I wanted to accomplished without adding the extra entrance and perhaps
forgetting the slip land and putting a stop sign and there's problems with that
too. And also, I appreciate your compromise position. I've seen these
emergency accesses. They do nothing for the quality of the two lots that they
split. Maybe it can be disguised somehow but I've never seen that they look
real good there so that's where I'm sitting. I'm all for keeping it closed.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Ursula?
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess on safety concerns I understand where staff ls
coming from but after having gone out there and looked at it, I'm also concerned
for safety but Z do belleve that in this case, the daily safety of the chlldren
is paramount over the incidents that might happen accidentally. Although I am
concerned about that. I also thlnk that another access onto TH 101 the way it
is today is dangerous and the sighting there is not good. I know that they're
talklng about improving TH 101 but I don't think we'll see that in the near
future so I think we're deal£ng with this development right now so I'm satisfied
not to have another access onto TH 101 the way it is now. It's dangerous. I'm
told that our emergency vehicles are 4 wheel drives and that they can go over
rough land or lawns if they have to and I wanted to know if the neighbors mlnd
if they go over your lawn in case the tree is in the way?
Mayor Chmiel: As long as the city doesn't have to pay for it.
Councilwoman Oimler: Yeah right. I'd like to have that in writing please.
Okay. And I guess the Plannlng Commission, I was there for that meeting as well
and they voted it down and they didn't mention anything about having them come
in with a plan for an emergency access so I understand why they dtdn't. Because
it was not one of the mandates that they had so I guess that basically concludes
my comments.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
City Council HeeLing-~ Hay 6. 1991
ComtncJ]man Haso]',: What Js the City's liability at the end of this 1,?00 foot
cu].--de--sac if because of the length of the cul-de-sac we can't get in to provide
eme'¢gel~cy ~erv.~.c .P.s?
Mayor ChmJe].: I'll defer that to our illustrious attorney.
Elliott I<net.sch: I think wha[ you're looking at is, it's a difficult item to
pttt Jn a nutshell, b~tt basically ~hat I think you would see is an incremental
increase in potential liability. Just slightly. I ~eal] yOU have to imagine if
a person is injured and you have a creative attorney representing that person,
there's no limit to the J. de~s he'll come forth ~ith trying to es[ablish
liability. And a cul-de.-sac like Lhat would be a potential weapon that a
crea[ive attorney could ttgo. Z think it would still boil do~n to the basics.
it reasonable for under a given set of planning circumstances to approve this?
Z think the thing:s you've heard .~bout traffic considerations on TH 101, the
resi. del~ts r:oncerl,s for [he neighborhood safety, those are competing interests
,~r,~l Jt would I)e reasonable probably either way you go. Z nmean you have
substantial tease]is on both sides but Z would say, to boil it all down, it's a
possible incremer~ta], incf'ease in your potential liability.
Mayor Chmiel: Tha;,k you. Yes sir.
Resident: T thii~k what you s,~id was [hat if you double the traffic and you've
got a neighborhood and when those people hit our children...potential liability
too? Is that wl~at was said?
Ft.liot. t Kne'tsch' I don't thi~,k there's been a traffic study done that will show
that i.t will double the traffic.
Re~J. dent: Well there's a lot more traffic...and I think that's a daily concern
that we have. ;[ think if somebody, got hurt...liability on the other end too?
Council. man Mason: My questiof] was liability in terms of being able to provide
services to city residents. Tha( was my only concern~
Mayor Chmiel; You can't control the drivers driving.
Councilman Hason: If we can't get in there because we allowed this to happen,
what could happe]~ [o us. That was my point. You know I don't live in a
cul-de-sac and J.[ would be fine. I mearm I agree with everything the neighbors
are saying ar,d I agree with everything that Mr. Kurvers has said. We all,
I th.tick to say that it's that mucl~ more dangerous. I mean I live on a very
steep hill and I have cars driving down my hJ].l too fast and it is a concern and
it's sometimes dangerous. ~gaJ. n ~'m a little concerned about how the city is
goil~9 to deal with a specific situation like that. ~ think I understand fairly
well where the PI.arming Department is coming from there and this quite honestl~
is a tough one. I agree with the neighbors nov. 40 years from nov maybe
different neighbors are goirl9 to feel differently. This is a real tough one and
I think p~rt of my problem is I'm having a little, trouble with some of the
arguments i'm hearing from the people in the neighborhood. Safely of children.
Z have two of my own kids. Safety is definitely an issue but safety is an issue
for a].]. of us. It's not just al~ issue fei' whether you live on a cul--de-sac or
~o[. That's not quite what Z wanted to say so I'm going to stop.
2o
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Richard?
Councilman Wing: Well I think it's been said. I guess I've been a little bit
set back by the arguments as being terribly inept and without any justification.
I think your comments of doubllng traffic really serves no purpose at a11. I
don't buy that at all and I don't think that'd be the case. What does trouble
me ls I think, as staff has pointed out, you're golng to add 14 lots and that
number of 10 vehicle operations per household is a very hard fixed number that
the engineers claim they can without any question justify. I mean it's an
absolute. If that's the case, what number of cars are going to double your
trafflc versus if we're golng to create 400 additional ones by creating this
cul-de-sac. $o the traffic issue to me is a pretty moot argument. I don't
agree wlth your numbers. I can just say quite honestly, I think we're going to
increase them by at least 400 at the people that live up by TH 101. I do agree
that lt's your neighborhood and I do support that basic right of government.
That is your neighborhood and maybe you have a right to do what you want. I
happen to 11ke cul-de-sacs. I'd prefer to live on one. I prefer the single
exlt to TH 101 versus two. The traffic I think is somewhat of a moot argument.
I guess the only polnt that was made for Council ls one of the owner developers
knows more about flre fighting than I'm ever going to know and I think that he
would agree that ifa flre ever broke out, it would certainly be nlce to run
engine companies and hose lines from two directions or two separate hydrants
rather than trylng to get equipment into the end of one of these cul-de-sacs.
And turn equipment around and if they miss an address what happens and so on but
I really see that, I kind of agree with Tom. It's statistically really not
likely and considering the speed and efficiency of our department, I guess I
really don't see that as major lssue. $o I'm 50-50 here Mr. Mayor. I'm
disappointed in the arguments but I do agree with the right to decide what they
want for thelr neighborhood and I'd prefer to be on a cul-de-sac.
Mayor Chmiel: Would you like to come up to the podium? Just state your name
and address please.
Craig Kurvers: Yeah, my name is Craig Kurvers and I live actually in Trotters
Circle instead of 8rook Pass but I'm very familiar with the development. I grew
up in the area there. Resldent of Kurvers Point for ZO some years but what I
wanted to clarify was the comment on 400 traffic flows through the area. In
fact that's I belleve that's based on a figure of about 10 per household. What
we're talking about adding is 14 additional households so you're dealing with
140 maximum, not 400.
Councilman Wing: That's correct and I would stand corrected on that.
Craig Kurvers: Alright, thank you.
Councilman Wing: ...that's probably a high number. I don't uant to get stuck
with that. That was just quoted by the engineers.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion?
Resident: I had a question. I don't want to get up... What I wondered in
honesty was the tlme difference. If there was a time difference in an
emergency, how much time? I understand the argument about if a tree should fall
Zl
City CouncJ. 1 He:.'Lillg - Hay 6, .1.991
over but J.f yott h,.~d ~ :;econd access, would it make that much difference in time
,'t:; opposed I.o what ¢)u~' concr;rns a~'e about the children? And even though the
argunlent~ may appear inept, a~ you can see they are emotion charged becauee ue
do .cee ,~ lot of t:l',e kids coming through. I don't think any one of us wants to
bc confrontational. We're here to try to ~ork this thing out. We have strong
fee. l i.l~gs ~.~bout .it.
H,'.tyo'r Chmlel: We understand that. Z thlnk lt's just something that lsa
hypothet.;c¢tl situation if ~t were to h~ppen. Being that we're charged in really
rl.tnnlng 'this clty, we have to look at all the rlsks. We have to try to
e..1..imj, n,_~te for yOlt ¢~s resident.s within the community and it may never happen.
Af~U whether o'r' not that access ls needed is another question. Charles?
ch~rJ.es Fei. ch: One thing that Lf the Council so desires for staff to take a
.1. ook at. I rece],l].y talked to a couple other communities and what we could do,
i¢ the issue come.~ down to whether we have an enlergency access or not and how we
would disguise this is, in a couple of the communities they pave a road surface
as ~.', fir;:: access which they construct as a normal road section. Then they
provide 4 to 6 ~nches of 'topsoil and they sod over the top. It's a completely
disguised emel'g~:rlCy access which they use typically in commercial districts.
However during like this time of year when yott have soft ground and things like
tl~at, they're still, able to cross over because they have that structural surface
underneath. .So Z think if the issue comes down '[o whether we have an emergency
access or not, ~ think .if yo~ so direct, us to do so, we could work out something
that could be nicely disguised.
Mayol' Chmiel: 6ood. Thank you. Any other discussion? If not, I would
entertain a motion. Tom?
EouncJlnlan Workman: I'll make a motion. Let's table it and talk about it next
week. That's my motion.
[:ouncilman Wlng: Can we send it back to Planning?
Councilman Workman: Yeah, let's send it back to Planning.
Mayor Chmie].: No, this is a decision making Council.
Councilma~ Workman: My decision is to make no decision. City Council approve
preliminary plat ~,.q?-ld for Kurvers Polnt, 2nd Addltlon as shown on the plans
dated March 10, 1991 for the following reasons. Eliminate 1~ The second number
1. Zt appears as though approve everything else. No, number 4.
Councilwoman Oimler: We don't need number 2 then do we?
Paul Krauss: Could I discuss number 2 for a moment?
Councilman Workmarm: Number 2?
P;~ul K'rauss: Yeah. I think we're all aware of the fact that HnDot is anythlng
but upfron~ in terms of assumlng their responsibilities for TH 101. Anybody
could call anybody at NnDot and get an answer that no, we don't want any
J. mprovement:; to TIi 101 because frankly HnOot doesi~'t care about TH 101 and they
2.2
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
assume that they're going to shovel the burden off on us. Well that being the
case, we're trying to take some responsibility for that and being cognizant of
some of the issues that the residents raised, we said if we're going to be stuck
with one access into this neighborhood, let's make it a decent access. And
we've contacted some folks over at MnOot who agree with that and basically what
we're looking at is having left turn lanes on TH 101 and by-pass lanes on TH 101
so that cars making those turns don't have to dart across traffic. They can sit
there and wait and cars aren't flying around on shoulders to do that. So add
too that the applicant is experiencing a significant cost savings here. I mean
there was originally a requirement, we've all heard comments that the second
curb cut had bad sight lines and frankly it does but the applicant under the
first approval is required to lower the grade of the hill on TH 101. I don't
know what that's going to cost but the cost was substantial. Without this curb
cut, he doesn't need to do that so there's a substantial cost savings there.
Mayor Chmiel: We realize that.
Paul Krauss: We felt it was reasonable then to think that ue could take that
savlngs and get a benefit of an improved curb cut at the exlstlng location.
Councilman Workman: And I guess as a part of my motion I'm going to put it at
the end. That's where I wanted it. We have a trafflc study that's not backed
from MnOot pertaining to speed.
Charles Folch: No, we're not going to see that yet, no.
Councilman Workman: Okay, yes we have a study but no it's not back?
Charles Folch: That's correct.
Councilman Workman: And so that's where I had said maybe we don't need a slip
lane if you've got a stop sign and that's primitive I know. Don't breathe heavy
on me yet because I'm already seeing, because I've already talked to Charles and
Dave today and then the trafflc would back up to Cheyenne and then we've got a
new problem and the Wetzel's and everybody else uill be in here. But that's
what I wanted to klnd of leave open for staff to kind of declde because we don't
want a slip lane there if it's going to be a stop sign. And I'm thinking of the
traffic trying to get on to TH 101 from Valley View. That's why I mentioned
that. So if we want to modify. So delete 1. Modify number 2 to say, have
staff work ulth MnDot to see if we cannot in relationship to the traffic speed
study, add in a stop sign and/or slip lane and/or other and work with that and
then maybe ue can review that separately. So does that work 'out?
Councilman Wing: That's how I read it the way it is.
Councilman Workman: Number 4 there was a question. Rewrite that with Scott.
Okay, and then number 19, they had some questions on that. Was the builder
going to pay for those or the developer? Wasn't it the builder?
Jo Ann Olsen: It says at time of building permit.
Mayor Chmlel: That would be the bullder.
23
.1o Alan 01sen: If they wanted...
Cour~cJ. lman Wo~'kmal,: That's my motion Hi-. Hayer.
Hayer Chmiel: Any other discussion? Frank, you wanted to mentlon something.
Councilmall Workman: Can I get a second tlr'st?
Councilwonlall Dll, leF: Second.
Frank Kurvers: Ny name is F'r'ank Kurvers and it seems like nobody really knows
uho'.e the Stat,'.: perso~ here. We've t. alked to State people that are in charge
,.~nd they glve us clifferent answers '[ha~l they seem to gJ. ve to staff. So I guess
]: c:an't understand. Ne talkcd to the person who's supposed to be in chat-ge
today and all these slip lanes and stop slgns and everything we're talklng
abou(, the State sold that that access is good the way it is. Everything is
· l. here in place that they ~ould require. Now Z can't understand, they talked to
,~ person f.h~t gives them a different ~nsueF and we talked to the same peopte. Z
9mzess Z'd 11ke to have a clarification. Who are we talklng to and who's
respol~sib/.e roi what they're sayil~g because it should be clarified. We're
v(~aJ..ty o~ a~ issLto there that t, hat are we trying [o create? I mean according to
~(lam, uh~ch [s tho guy that g.i. ves out the permit, Z spoke u~th him and he sa~d
what's; out there r~ght now ~s a~} that's required of a 40-42 subdLvJs&on. Now
we're taJ. ktng about, something extra which f'Lgl',t now we're deatSng with the State
of Hi~nesota. ~'f'e not dca}in9 u$th, we're somewhat dealing u2th 6hanhassen
b~ca~tse that's part of the plat procer~s but we're stL[], dealing with the State
of H&nnesota. The person that Z ta}ked to, he's supposed to be Sn charge.
itayOF Chmiel: I think sometimes in some of those particular situations Frank as
we've done within the city, ouT' communication plan has improved immensely.
Possibly what coul~t happen is that get on a collference line with staff at the
same ti. mo to come up w.ith the answer that you're looking for and that would
therefore eliminate that problem. Ursula?
Councilwoman Dimler: Hr. liayor. Hr. Kurvers, while you're up there can I ask
you a ques[ion? I wan~ed to have your comments on our engineer's, Chuck's
comment on what I thomtght was a good one. The paved road surface underneath
wir. l~ the :sod over. ~ nice].y disguised access for emergency vehicles.
Frallk Kmtrvof'o: Well, it sounds real good. Anything that has sod on top of it
sounds great, but .T.'d have to differ. If you drive a firetruck on top of sod,
you're going to 'replace all that sod so who's going to replace the sod? I mean
.i.t's (.~ roe;.], fancy spectking design but it's not too useful.
Mayor £:hnlie]: The developer'?
Frank KuFvnrm: No.
Comtnci]man Mason: The point is, it's an emergency access and it would maybe be
used once in ~0 years. .T. mean hopefully it would never be used. I guess I'd
.like to see if that could be pursued a little further.
Councilman Wing: Frank, that emergency access.
24
City Council Meeting - May &, 1991
Paul Kurvers: My name is Paul Kurvers. If I could just add something to that.
In the case of something like that, who's going to actually maintain it during
the winter months for example? Is it going to have to be plowed? Who plows
it? Who pays for the cost of maintaining that?
Councilwoman Oimler: Can't the emergency vehicles go over curbs?
Councilman Wing: I was just going to, Frank. I said that seriously. You
probably know more about fire fighting than anybody in the city right now having
been one of the charter members. And the emergency access has been an issue.
How do you feel about that and are your residents in your community going to get
adequate service without that?
Frank Kurvers: Well, as far as being a firemen for 20 years I'd have to tell
you this. First of a11, the property is narrow. The whole entire property is
narrow and if you understand how far apart hydrants are, you could hit that
property from State Highway 101 with the same distance as any hydrant in the
subdivision. So as far as that standpoint of fighting that flre at a particular
house, it doesn't make any difference. And as far as speed to get to that fire,
I would say lt's less than a mlnute's difference. So I mean that doesn't make
any difference elther.
Mayor Chmiel: Appreciate it.
Councilwoman Dimler: Thank you. Okay, that answers my question.
Paul Kurvers: Yeah, I've just got something I'd like to add. You were talking
about the second access, or the one access point on TH 101 being possibly
upgraded and maybe us incurring the cost of upgrading this. It's klnd of a hard
pill for me to swallow. We're adding, talking about adding 14 lots to thls
intersection and are we going to justlfy the 14 lots that we add, is that golng
to for example you were talking about $ dozen vehicles roughly that come up
Valley View Road. Now ls it golng to be our responsibility as developers to
maintain or upgrade that intersection for the 14 lots that we're adding, without
glvlng any conditions or givlng any credlt to the cars that are already coming
up Valley View Road. It's our responsibility as developers. Those 14 lots,
based on those 14 lots that we're adding, are we golng to have to pay the total
cost of upgrading that intersection? Is that a fair proposition in your minds?
Paul Krauss: If I could address that. The answer is yes. I'm having a tough
time just opposing two positions. Either we're concerned about safety or we
aren't. If this development were to come in today with a single curb cut, we
would have it designed with turn lanes and slip lanes. I've got to believe that
that wasn't done originally because we thought it would have a second access.
There's no question in my mind that we have a right to assure that we have 41
homes that have a safe access and that it's a reasonable thing to do.
Paul Kurvers: Well as part of the approval of the first phase of the
development, we did in fact upgrade the intersection and at that tlme we dld
allow for a turning lane into the intersection and an acceleration lane out of
the subdivision ltself also. And on the opposite side of the highway, there
already is what you consider a by-pass lane which you use as an exit to get onto
Valley Vlew Road.
25
C.ity Council. l'leet~no - H,.~y 6, 1.791
P,'~uJ I(i-autsa: Tl'~.at.'.,-~ 'lruu bul t.l~ey"r'e ve.r'y ~ho'rt and there are no turn lanes
c:alll~n,.'l J. llto t. he project.
PaLtl Kurvero: They're up Lo MnDo't's standards.
F'r'c~r~k Kurvers' T.'d like to ¢~dd one more comment here. il think Mi-. Wing knows
th~tt time p.l. ace. T'ir you were to look at State Highway 41 and State Highway ?,
the proposal whlch i:hey're propOSil',g tonight that we should pick up the cost
re,-, there J.:s ~ot one at State Highway 5 and TH 7 at the present tlme and you
I'~ve ,,~ l~rge shoppLng center tl~ere. You also h~ve school traffic ~,nd it ~sn't
,~v{:n compa'r~b]e t.o uh~t we're talklng about and it does not h~ve what they're
proposing.
M~yor Chmir_,.].: ()kay, thank you. Any other discussion Council? We've got a
motion on the floor with ~ secol~d. Corlditi_ons as indicated. Tom h~s. Everyone
ttnderstand the conditions?
COUrlCJ.]man Mason: .T'm breathing. So thls emergency access, as charles slated
i::~ o. dead
Mayor ChmJ. e]: Tt appears as such.
Councilman ~orkm,.tn: ¢.~s the motion stands.
CoLtncJ. luoman Dimler: Well Z 'think that Mr. Kurvers answered the question
adequately ~nd I~eing that he's been on the fire dep,zrtmen[ for ,t long time,
t.;.~kn his word for it.
commcilman Workman moved, Coulmcilwoman gimlet seconded to approve Pr'elJminary
Plat ¢87-14 for Kurvers Point 2nd Addit. ion as shown on the plans dated Hatch 18,
1991 with the following conditions:
1. Deleted.
2. The ,'tpplican[ Skla].] receive a new access permit for the existing access to
· rl.I .lO~ from HnBot ~nd shall provide ~nd pay for ~ny and all improvements
requJ, red by the CJ. ty for the existing ~ccess to Kurvers Point. To
deLerlnil]e 'tl'],'e rlecess;.~l'y J. mprovemel~ts, the af)p].ic,.~l~t shat1 provide the 6ity
with ~', deLaJ, led [raffJ. c Analysis for staff approval.
3. The applicant shaJZ request 'the City Council to remove tile conditio~
requiring the second ~ccess as part of the second phase and necessary
Lmprovements to TH 101 from the developmen( contract recorded against the
property.
4. Staff will redraft this condition to clarify access to Lotus Lake for Lots
4 and 5, Block 1.
5. ,All prJ. v~tte di'iv~.way access polnts onto TH 101 shall be abandoned and the
d.;.sturbed area.ts sh~lt be rester-ed within 1'1-1 lO1 right-of-way.
6. AddJ. tJ. onal inanholer;, catch baslrls and pipe bends shall be incorporated,
where appropri,~te, to inst~t], the s~n.~tctf-y sewer', storm sewer 8nd watermain
26
City Council Heeting - Hay &, 1991
within the roadway area and not under the curb and gutter.
7. All utilities and roadways shall be constructed in accordance with the
current edition of the city's standard specifications and detail plates.
8. The erosion control barrier line west of proposed Kurvers Point Road shall
be the clty's Type III erosion control fence. An additional silt fence
barrier shall be installed on the east side of Kurvers Point Road lying
south of Basswood Clrcle immediately after slte gradlng to prevent soil
from washing into the new streets and storm sewer system.
9. A 75 foot long gravel construction driveway access shall be constructed at
the end of the pavement on Kurvers Point Road to help reduce mud and debris
from being tracked out onto Kurvers Point Road.
10. All disturbed areas shall be immediately seeded and mulched to help reduce
erosion.
11. Wood fiber blanket or erosion control blanket shall be used on all slopes
greater than 3:1.
12. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the Watershed
District, DNR and other appropriate regulatory agencies and comply with
their conditions of approval.
13. The watermain connection at the south end of Kurvers Point Road to the
exlstlng 12 lnch watermaln adjacent to TH 101 shall be made by a "wet tap"
to avoid interruption of water service.
14. The applicant shall enter into a development contract and provide the city
with the financial security to guarantee proper installation of these
improvements.
15. The applicant shall extend a storm sewer lead from the existing storm sewer
in KuFveFs Point Road (Phase I) to intercept the backyard drainage
from Lots 13 and 14, Block 1.
A revised final grading and erosion control plan shall be included and
approved as part of the construction plans and specifications for thls
project.
17. The developer's engineer shall verify that the proposed slte gradlng will
not reduce the amount of ground cover over the city's 12 inch watermain
adjacent to TH 101.
18. The existing structures require a demolition permit for removal and any
wells and septic systems must be properly abandoned.
19. Full park and trail fees shall be paid at time of bullding permlt
application.
All voted in favor except Councilman Nason who opposed and the motion carried
with a vote of 4 to 1.
27
City Coul~cJ.l HeeLing -- May &.~ 1.991
Mayor ChmJ. el: Thank you. Would you like to c'.larify?
Coktnci]m~n Mason: T would like to clarify that. Again, I basically agree with
wl~ai, ';.he neighbor's say and if I lived there Z suspect that I would be with them
beh£nd tidal podium. I wish we could have taken a better and harder look at an
emergency access and that's essentially why I voted the way I did.
Mayor chmiel: Good. Thank you,
AMENDMENT TO SITE PLAN APPROVAL, SIGNAGE FOR THE CHANHASSEN MEDICAL ARTS
FACILITY, 470 WEST ?STH STREET.
Councilman Workman: Mr. Mayor, .I'd like to be excused to the audience. I will
not b:; voting on thJ. s item.
Mayor Chmiel: You may remove yourself.
C, oul~cilwoman DimJ.~:r': Hr. Mayor, I'd like to be excused to the audience.
Mayor Chmiel: No.
Councilwoma~ Oimler: I don't want to vote on this one.
Paul Krauss' ~ell Mr. Mayor, [ hope this item's a little less contentious but
Z doubt it.
Mayor ChmJ. e].: I would hope so too.
Paul Krauss: As you're aware, this has bee]] bounced around between, well it's
had several hearings in Front of the Plannlng Commission, youself. This started
out approximately, wel.l the're was a slgn plan that uas approved ulth the
original building. It was a condition of the original approval. That slgn plan
allowed 3 signs on the front of the building. There was some confusion about
Lhat and a year later, last year the applicants came back in and raised the
number of signs to 5 signs on the front of the building. They are seeklng
additional tenant signage and that led to this serles of negotiations. They
came before you several weeks ago. You had agreed that a p].an that you had seen
but tl~e Planning Commission didn't which provlded ? signs was okay in principle
but that it should be sent back to the Plannlng Commission for c].arlflcatlon.
The Planning Commission looked at that and basically agreed to the following.
l'hat if Area C, which is that middle band, be allowed to have 3 slgns, the
Planning Commission felt that the slgn height should be no greater than the sign
height anyplace e]sn on the bLtildlng which i~ 24 inches. They had a problem
uJttl that sLgnage area beil~g larger. A sign covenant is being revised to
prohibit temporary signage which was a recommendation of staff and sign
covenants requiring permit approva], by the city which is a requirement but ue
Ii. kc ~o state that in covenants, They were silent on the question of color
because ~hey be],~ev,'~, that color is allowed anyplace on the building which in
Fact it already is. We only have one sign that's not, well that's yellow now.
F. very~.hing else .is white, The applicants had proposed that all the signage
except the signage in the middle be white. So there's a lot of fine points
where there's some difference here but the Planning Commission wasn't concerned
about colored signs and they weren't concerned about logos either, As long as
28
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
you could fit them into a 24 inch band, that's fine with them. The applicant on
this has been pretty cooperative and has tried to come up aith middle ground
positions that he felt met his needs and also strove towards meeting what
the Planning Commission was talking about. Therefore he's come up wtth a final
slgn package that reduced hls origlnal request from 4 foot slgns. Remember the
Planning Commission only wanted 2 foot. From 4 foot signs to 3 foot so we're
talking about a 12 inch difference at this polnt. Maximum height of letters
would be reduced from 3 feet to 1 foot which is again a little bit different
than the Plannlng Commission. The Plannlng Commission had envisioned 10 1rich
letters as opposed to 12 inch letters that's being proposed right now. Under
the applicant's proposal with a 3 foot sign band too, you could stack the
letters so you could have 2 bands of 12 inch letters. The applicant has
developed some language that's consistent with staff recommendations. On the
sign covenants, we have a few different language changes but we're generally
okay with that. And again, the applicant's proposal differs from the Planning
Commission in that they are still requesting only monochromatic signage except
in the middle of the building. As I told the Planning Commission, this is
getting into an area that's really tough for us to make a strong recommendation
on. As you're aware, we're not dealing with a strong sign ordinance that gives
us a whole lot of direction and there's not a real body of work to consult in
terms of what the City's desire is in signage in the downtown area. Given that
however, I was unable to find any reason to recommend anything other than what
the Planning Commission had forwarded to you. We note that there are
substantial number of signs on the building and we note that this building is
unusually close to the street and we are therefore carrying forward the Planning
Commission recommendation and the conditions of approval that are provided with
our recommendation are those that were developed by the Planning Commission. I
think that does it for me Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone wishing to make a presentation at
this time? For the record, state your name and address.
Bob Copeland: My name is Bob Copeland and I'm one of the building owners.
I just have a few comments to make to you. You've heard most of the things.
Would you 11ke me to move it closer?
Councilwoman Oimler: Yes please.
Mayor Chmiel: Can you pick that up?
Councilwoman Dimler: You can't see it now? Okay, you can move it back. I've
seen what you're proposing.
Bob Copeland: Briefly I just wanted to state that we've made a $1,800,000.00
investment in downtown Chanhassen and we're real proud of the building and we
don't want to do anythlng to thls bulldlng that's going to detract from it's
appearance and detract from downtown Chanhassen. We have a big stake in
downtown Chanhassen and how successful the whole downtown ls. We thlnk that
this building, this investment has created jobs in Chanhassen. It's created tax
revenue and we thlnk that thls lsa beneflt to everyone in Chanhassen. Also,
just as an aslde, the reason it's as close to the road as it is is because
that's where the City wanted it. Our original proposals had it back from the
road. As you know, we have experienced a need for more tenant signage than was
29
[':.i.f.y Coul~r.';J..t H,'..:.'_'.t.[l~g--ilay 6, J991
of-.'i, gJ. llal.l.y ,"inti~:ipated al~d clue to the cooperatJ, on of the Council al~d the
P].ann.[l~<l comm.Lss.[on and time mt,~ff, we're al. most tt~eFe in achieving the resulbs
or the a].lowed sJg~]age that we need. We're really down to one issue you might
c~:.y ,~ll~t th,~.t'$ the height of the ~igne in the cento'r area that are allowed. We
ori. o;nally, o'r' let'~ say most recently requested that that area be allowed for 4
t'~ot high sights ,:~l]d the Plrtn~ng Commiss&on wanted 2 feet. We are now before
).,Olt re~uestlng 3 feet. No~ i,ot only 1s that splitting the d&fference but 3 feet
J.s i~ol. j~zst ¢~n arb2tFary numl)eF. Zt turns oLtt that Ln order' to put sLgns as ~e
need Lo l~ave &r~ that center area, ~e have to have &t actually turns out to 44
J_nches ~s the ~L,Lmum height that ~e can ptzt in the s~gr~age that ~e ~outd tike
to have and ~e've rounded that off to 3 feet. Due to [he type of letterSng that
w~¢'F~ LryJ. ng to J. nstatL there ~.tth the lighting &nsLde the letters, there's a
~:ertair, ~nLmLtm di~ei~s.(on that you can have ol~ these letters. Zn order to get
sign;~ge ].ike ~f~ef-ZC,ll'l Family on [hat build.lng, you have to have at ].east 34
lpches in height for a sign. Now if yott take a look, this is drawn to scale.
Tlli3 irs ,'~ 3 foot higl~ sign area. This Amef-J.c,~ll FaBily sign is 3 feet from the
top of that peak to the bottom of that box that we have the letters for
[nstti-anoe. ThLs is the 4 foot. I guess the point I'm (l'Yil~g to make is 1 foot
doesn't make a lot et difference visually but it does ffmake a lot of d~.fferermce
[n tel'ms of wh(tt we're ~ble to get on the build.lng. So thet's all I have to
::;ay. If you have any qm.testions, we'll be happy to answer them. Thank you.
Idayof Cl',mic:].: Appreci,z'Le iL. Docs anyone have ar, y questions?
r:ounci]man Mason: You came out wiLh the 3 feet right? .T mean that was your
C: 0 fl~,~) r' (~ rtl.[ ',-3 ~: ?
nob CopeJ. and: Yes.
Okay.
hlayo'r' Chmiel: ¢,nyone e]
Cottncllman Mason: Hay } please say LhJ. s Hr. Mayor? WouJ.d you please state your
ll,.t III e,
Tom Workman: Fur safety I'll state my business address. 470 West 78th Street.
R[gl~t here. 1~ town. Tom Nof'km,'zn. .~ have, ]..ike Bob, Z have speclf.tc concerns
about my par' L.tcu] ar logo. Zf we go to a 2 foot maximum height and ~f you look
;.tt the logo and everybody Js getting t.tsed to what that togo rooks tike, we have
thtr: 11ttJ~ roof on there. So what I'm speaking about Js propof'tlons. Zf the
height can onJ.y be so high, then &t's .te,gth as a togo can onty be so high. Zn
other words;, if )' could have 19 feet potentia.lly, which Z 9ttess is my option, I
c:om. tld h~ve J9 feet. Ny togo ~ould have to be 7 feet hLgh let's s~y. So il] other
uoi'ds Jf i['s only 12 inches hlgl~, it can only get so long because 'the logo
WOLtld be comf)l-omlsil~g ~rid it c,~II't go on forever and ever. So if Z have a 10
Jrmch or t2 1rich letter helght, whlch Jsrm't bad. A 12 1rich letter isn't bad and
I'm going f.o ila~e American FamiJ. y And ~nsurance, that's it. Z in otlmer Nor'ds do
Imot 'have room for the logo, the roof. Part of lt. So if I'm going to get the
roof ,mhd two sets of letters in there, the ].etters are going to have to be,
the:':e lJ.[tle met~]. ].ettef's are going to have to be very small and as it gets
smaller' ~t ge~s 1.ti. tier. Imagirme yo~trself huf-dJ, ing by [his th.(l~g at 35 to 40
mph end ~ow you cAi]'t see. 25 mph. So what Z'm sayJ. n9 is as you shrink it down
30
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
this way, we're talking about the height. You're also talking about the width
coming in to the polnt where we could have something the size of a license plate
up there and why have lt. So my hope is that the Councll will take lnto
consideration what maybe wasn't 100~ clear when the building, when the footings
were just golng lnto the bulldlng and that ls that the needs of the bulldlng
changed and that my preference isn't to spend and Bob's isn't to spend hundreds
or thousands of dollars on these huge slgns making the buildlng look gaudy but
the sign in it's baslc sense and form is for a reason and that's to be seen.
Zt's to be seen so that not only in my situation but in the situation of
everybody in the buiIdlng, can make a living and that's why we're in the
building. There's a reason why I'm in that building. It's a classy building.
There's a lot of traffic going by. I think people recognize that it's a great
building. I don't want to make thls bulldlng look ugly with my logo. I don't
think this does that. I don't know how many of you get down to Chaska but they
have a new professional buildlng down there. I don't know if any of you have
been down there for a while but as you pull up to the intersection down on TH 41
right at 212, there's a brand new building right by the tracks. It's an office
building and there's a very large Burner Realty sign on there. Now it's not
individual letters. It's much 11ke the American Famlly slgn that we have on our
building now. It's just basic plastlc with a logo painted on there and backlit.
Not individual letters 11ke we're dolng on thls building. ! have two copies
and I'll pass them around. Very obvious. The other building in Chaska is what
they call the Chaska Professional Building. Dr. Sudcliff, the chiropraotor ls
pretty much, well he's the dominant tenant but he has a very large, very hlgh
mounted slgn with hls apparent own logo. It's about 3 or 4 feet high the slgn
itself so there's good doctors, there's chiropractors, isn't there an artery
doctor or something going to move into the building. All these people that are
advertising and they're advertising for a reason. Because that's what the
market's dictating. And that's all I'll say unless you guys have any questions
of me.
Councilwoman Dimler: Are there other people in that building already because
the only sign I could see was the Burner Realty?
Tom Workman: Yeah, they're hoping to get other tenants in there.
Councilwoman Oimler: They don't have them yet though?
Tom Workman: No. They have 2 full floors there.
Councilwoman Dimler: When they get the other tenants, will they be able to put
up thelr signs? Do you happen to know?
Tom Workman: I don't know specifically. But if I were to go in there and I was
going to spend money on blg rent, it would definitely be on my mind. And a
consideration and that's what this has been for me and my partner, Dale who I
thought would be here tonight. I handle the clty stuff.
Mayor Chmiel: He said he didn't want to be here.
Tom Workman: But that was definitely a consideration. Bob can tell you. It's
a consideration. It's a necessity these days for people to know where you're at
and that's the discussion we've had with the HRA and the trafflc study is that
it's ~ot just tc~ be an ide,tJ, fJer that once I know where you are I can go there
,'~nd iL tells mr-: you're: there. It's for people that driw; by and see that every
day_ It's advertising. Whether you're doing business with me or not. So we do
waist ~t seels, t,Je want it visible. 6oldstar Mortgage wanted their's visible.
They've told me they've paid for that sign 5 times over because a gentleman from
Not-th Carolina just happened into town. He's going to be in the area.
Transferred and they were drivJ, rlg around to~n. He stopped in. Saw the mortgage
company and got a mortgage there. He wouldn't have known it otherwise. So in
I.h~; continuation of all the discussions I've had about business and downtown and
traffic ~nd evel'y(hJ.,g else, this is just one more little tl~ing mild I apologize
for putt.tn§ you .-'.11 in this situatio,. I don't thi,k we're asking for a ~hole
lot.. T. th~nk the s.i. gl~ itself with the individual letters .is high quality and
that'.~ what we want it to be so. Bo you ~ant to see this?
Mayor Chmie].: Okay. ,~ny ot.l',er discussion?
¢.o~ncilwomar~ Dim]er: What is it?
Mayor Chmiel: It's an existing building.
Councilwoman Dimler: In Chaska?
Hayo'¢ Chmie].' I~.[ght on the main street. TH 41. Okay. I guess I'll take a
lead on this. Not because of who you are or because you sit on the Council.
· rh,,t':; ,',et ,,y style. I do waist to clarify that. But if I were in business I
would want to ,make sure that whatever I have is seen and visible. I also feel
that ir, looking ~zt a 3 foot space, I'm sure they don't want to detract from that
building. The buildim~g in itself sells the clients that are there as well.
What I sc~ a 3 foot with the .t foot letter doesn't really bother me or even
:-~etti~g a precedent wJ. thJ. r~ the city. I guess from what the recommendation was
ff'~rn t l'mr~ t~lanr, J_m~g com~missio,, it was a 24 with a 10 inch. In order to really
r-~how that sign, be able to depict it from driving as you're going through, I
LhJ~k that's whet sells the i,diuidual. They'r~ there to make mo~ey at uhat
they're doing because I'mmm sure the.., for having that facility is costly enough
as well. Dui nonethe].ess Z think the building in itself is large enough to
support that kind of sign. Z think Jf we were to have any further discussions
ir, looking at 3 foot signs on a smaller building would probably present a
problem and I think that's what we have to really look at. ~s I see it, with
the 3 fool o~ith J. foot letters, I guess that doesn't bother me any. I think it
blends. Michael?
¢.ou]~ci].man Maso,: It kind of sounds like design standards and business and
signage ar~; all meeting aL tl~e same spot here a~d there certainly has been much
[o do aboLt[ this. I appreciate, I'll. use the formal Councilman Workman's candor
Jn bringi~lg this up before [h.'~. body and really staying out of it in terms of the
dc, cision making process. Certainly as it should be. In terms of design, I
agree with the Planning commission about for continuity and ~ll of that. It
probabJy shoLt]d be 2 feet across. I think from business standpoint I see the
need for 3 feet. ~ understand the bind that the people in that building are in
in this position. We certainly want to attract more business into Chanhassen.
coi'f, aJ. nly I think J.n tl,e past there have been far uglier ways than this to try
and attract that business. From looking at that scale drawing and driving past
32
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
that buildlng twice a day for a number of years, well ever slnce lt's been
there, yeah I too can live with 3 feet in the middle there.
Councilman Wing: Well this is certainly a difficult issue over a sign and it's
been worked to death. And some really fine talented, educated people with a lot
more knowledge of thls lssue than me have looked at this and debated it for
hours and hours and hours. People that are designers. Myself. Planning
Commission. What an lmpecable group of people they are as far as their
educational standards to look at something like this and the Planning Commission
has recommended that we stay withln the 24 inch sign stripe. City staff has
looked at it. I have probably given thls particular issue more time than any
other one in the city so far. I've sat across the street with my wife and
friends who are in urban design and architects who've sketched it and looked at
it and we've declded that lt's a very hlgh impact building. It's a gateway
building. It's a professional building. The present lettering is very
sophisticated looklng and that the fact that we went to a logo wlth colors on
the building was in fact a significant compromise. After having spent a lot of
time debatlng thls we felt, and I guess I should say specifically ! felt that
the 24 inch band is a significant impact on this building. If we break from the
24 1rich, Z have no qualms at all wtth going to the 4 foot. If we're after
advertising and helping the businessman, I think the 3 foot lsa waste of time.
If we're going to break from the exlsting 2 foot band, Z see no problem at all
with the original request for 4 feet. At that point the difference becomes
irrelevant. We've taken the center sectlon and klnd of turned it into an
advertising panel and I have no problems with that if that's what the Council
chooses to do. ! think the 3 foot ls almost a moot polnt. We either stay
within the existing architectural design and it's intent or the 4 foot is more
than acceptable to me. We can go on all day with these arguments but they're
just old so I guess based on my respect for the Planning Commission and the work
they've put 1nrc this and staff, I'm going to stay remaining with the 24 inches.
With all due respect to Councilman Workman.
Councilwoman Dimler: I don't think I'm going to vote on this one Mr. Mayor.
No. Oh gee. I think the comments, everything that's been said has been pretty
much on and I can see both sldes. I dld happen to notice that there was a big
splurge in the paper on this particular butlding last week and it was pretty
much advertised as a professional building. That's what I think it is. I can
see if you're going to compare it to retatl businesses like the Brooke's over
here and slgns all along there. The Glenrose Floral and so forth, I can see
them having their types of signs because they're the kinds of businesses that
people, as they drlve by and they maybe see the Little Ceasars and declde I'm
hungry for pizza, they drive in and that's the kind of business that draws that
kind of, that slgnage would draw people in just off the street. In a
professional building I see that a little blt different because I don't see
customers, 11ke even for insurance or patients going to their doctors or c11ents
for a lawyer, they normally know where their doctor or lawyer or insurance agent
ls located. I don't see too many people drivlng by and saying well, I thlnk I'm
going to buy some insurance or I've got to go see my doctor real quick or
something of that nature. And so for that reason I do believe that the 2 feet,
let me see if I'm saying this right, is adequate. Also because the building is
so close to the road, I have absolutely no trouble with visibility. [ thlnk
[t'd be very, very visible. I stated that I think that businesses that have a
logo ought to be able to use that logo and that the color is not a problem for
City Counc.i.1 Heet ing --H;iy 6, 1991
me .niche,-. ] ~o~t].d 1.1kc to see us stay uniform on the building. Z can't see
a~y .~;ense, ,.ts Richard sayu, why [he 3 feet. Then you might as well §o to 4 if
yo~t'rc not going to stay ur~iform. Also _T have a concern in that, although Z
r,i.ght, w,'~nt to do a favor for' Bob and Tom, Z do have a concern that this signage
package 9oe:~ with the building when that building changes ownership and Tom may
not be there forever. So Z want to make s,re thctt Z ce. tn live with what .ts there
,'-tftel' thesn two are .c..,one. Therefore Z th~nk it Js setting a precedence for
of. her profe;~si, on,'.t] buildings in the future and 3: would l~ke to see us stay with
I. he recommendati, on.~ of the Planning Commission.
Wing; Mr. Mayor, one other comme.~t when app~'opriate.
H,-~yor Chlniel' Well, ]l j~tst keep looking at, I think from what Bob proposed as
t;i.:'; or¢.gin,~t 4 foot fo ,'.t 3 foot was a oompromise from thai standpoint and Z like
comp'¢omisJ, ng.. Ev~.':n though the Planning Commission's recommendation was 24 and ~
tt~der.'~t,'tr, d t. hat. ?4 inches. Z guess T just don't, if Z w~;re in that particular
hLit.ldi, ng, I cot~ld get little larger letters to make that vis~bil, ity for me to
cr¢,'tt.,.-.. ~ .li. ttlo more busines:3 and that's why they're there. 4 feet T_ think was
,.*., 1.i. ttle excessive. 3 feet to me Z felt very comfo'r'table with. With that, Z
guess '[ would ].~ko to, ill fact /.'f, goillg tO make the motion. Z hadn't intended
to. .T ~ou]d ]..i. ke to move that motion that the City Counci} approve .Site Plan
~m::ndmen~ ¢8,q--J.7 [o ¢~me~d the signage p[an for' 6hanhassen Medical ~rts/Ridgevie~
Medical ¢t'r'ts bLtilding subject to the fo}~ow~ng conditions. To just make that
sion maximum he.i. gli( to ch;.~nge from the 24 to the 36 inches with no individual
~etter's I~]ghr.*.r than 12 ~nches. And the balance of the staff rec:ommendations to
remain a.s .ts. ~.'.s there ;~ second?
CoLtr~cJ. lwoman BZml~.,.~-.' 5ust a minute. Before ~ vote on that.
H,.xyor Chm£el' I'd 1.i. ke a :~e~:ond first.
second it.
Councilwoman B.i. mJer: I'm noL real sure. T. may be overlooking something but Z
don't understand condition 5 wlth the trafflc slgns. Could somebody explain
that?
Paul Krauss". That was at the applicant's request. It's talking about
d~rr~.ctional oigns in the parking lot. Typically they're smaller than 4 x 4
si. gns and they say parking this way, exit that way.
Cottncil~Joman Dimle. r: They're not going to be on the building?
Paul Krauss= No.
CoL'.I,c.(.lwomal~ ¢iml,).rr Thank you.
COLtnci]mal] Mason: Ursula, a question. You commented that you thought that
p~;op].,~; '.-~hould be able to use their logo on it. Now according to Councilman
Workmarl, he :.~aJ.d ? f~:ut isn't big enough for his logo.
34
City Council Meeting - May &, 1991
Counclluoman Dimler: You knou they have those American Insurance all over the
benches wherever, have you ever seen them on the benches? Those are 2 feet and
they are very visible.
Tom Workman: Ursula, these are individual metal lit neon. Not spray painted on
a sheet of plastic.
Councilman Mason: So you're talking about something completely different than
the stencil thing?
Tom Workman: Oh yeah. Individual raised letters.
Councilwoman Oimler: You're not talking about the same sign that you see on the
benches then?
Tom Workman: Oh no. Or the same one that I have now. That's a big plastic
bubble. More like the Burner. Burner Realty. This is just like the Goldstar
slgn. Each letter by ltself. Metal. Metal letters. Individual raised metal
letters with the neon.
Brad Johnson: Can I speak to something technical?
Councilwoman Dimler: And it's golng to be lit up at night?
Mayor Chmiel: Not yet. Just a second.
Councilman Mason: It's going to be lit up at night?
Councilman Wing: The issue really is the lighting because they can't light less
than 3 feet.
Councilman Mason: Right. Well, isn't it 10 inches?
Councilwoman Dimler: Is that the only sign that's going to be lit?
Tom Workman: No, they're all lit.
Councilman Mason: Goldstar's lit.
Bob Copeland: These are individual letters now. Now this needs to be 10
inches. We need to have 1 inch inbetween which is squeezing it. It's tight.
This we could 1lye with 10 lnches. Thls Z guess we need a couple inches there.
The height from here to here needs to be 8. Now when you add all these up,
you've got 35 lnches. And thls ls an individual bar or box. I've got something
a little wrong but the point I'm trying to make is that this is an individual
piece and it's got a neon tube lnside and it can only be a certain minimum
thickness and have the clearances around this neon tube. Each one of these
letters is an individual letter and has a neon tube lnside and there's a 11mit
to how small you can make this and still have each letter individually 1it. Now
we have had the feeling that havlng these individual letters and individual
pieces makes it a much more attractive sign than just the cabinet or box wtth
the painted logo on lt. So this is what we've been trylng to accomplish.
35
City Council Meeting -- May 6, 1991
Councilwoman r)imle'r: T. would like Lo ask Paul Krauss .a question as to how he
fee.].s J.f LI~.L~ ~ou.l.d be precedence setting for the future, being that you're the
p].al]ne~'.
Paul Krauss: Well, yeah it probably would be. Now the question is, is that
good or b,'{d? There are good points to this as a precedent. When we've got the
ind.~vidua] letters of a certain minimum size with a standardized set of sign
covenants on ~hJ.s building, ~ can point to that for the next building that comes
J.n and de,,ands [t~e same kind of quality. The question or whether or not these
letters should be J.O inches or 12 inches or the height should be 2 foot or 3
foo( or the sign box. ~ have a real tough time giving you a good recommendation
o~ (hat. 'z ~e,~ll vJ. sua].ly J_['s not going to be real different. I have a little
bit of a pr'oble~ des~.gl~ing a sign covenants for a specific sign for one tenant.
You really should co~e tip with a standard that ~orks for everybody across the
board but I can't tell you that this is a significant impact or a significant
visual proble~ because I honestiy don't think that that's the case. I wish l
would be ~ore definitive for you Councilwoman Dialer but I have a tough time
(Jo.trig t hat ..
Councilman blasor,: Can Z follow up with another' question then?
Hayor chin/el.: Sure.
CouncJ. J. man Mason: Do you see this, as I understand your concern about doing
covenants for one tenant, do you see this recommendation, the motion as it
stands as workable with other' signage issues?
Pau]. Krauss: We[.]. keep il~ ~J. nd that this is a sign for a specific tenant.
thJ.~k J.t wJ. 1] work for a let of tenants but what if the next tenants comes
and has ,~ logo 1:liar is 42 inches high ,and it doesn't work unless it's reduced?
~l-~at do you ~1o then? Bo you [hen say the increment is only 6 inches aprove what
you approved before of- is this the bottom line? T_ Iuean this is the problem
we've had with [hJ.s project from 'the start. It's a moving target. The standard
keeps cl~angJ, ng. Now we're comfortable with this if this becomes the operative
standard and it's not changed in the future for the next person. But that's the
p'roblem you have when you design for' a specific tenant.
Brad 3ohnson: Just a poii~t o'[ clarification. We do deal with a lot of signs
~tnd .~'11 say this. .T think thaf. Chanhassen, even though you don't think you
have a 'real good sign ordinance.
Mayol' Ch~nie].: Excuse me.
Brad Johnson: Brad Johnson, 7425 Frontier Trail. Still. One of the hardest
things lo deal with is when, you've had a big movement from signs. When you go
ovor and look at the Hanus building currently we're blessed with a bunch of 4 x
8 signs that have been painted that we're trying to change over time and that's
the old kind of sign. Then they went to the cans which would I)e the enclosed,
pl,',stic sign ].ike the Toro's and th.~ngs and then they put those on the side of
[he buildings and they had some other things. The thing that we've been trying
to do in all our projec~.s here .Locally .ts go to the individual lettered signs or
neon lit signs because they seem to have a kind of classy look. So Town Square
a~d [he new Harket .Squ~tre ~Jill all have that type of thing. It costs about 3
36
City Council Meeting - May &, 1991
times as much to do it that way as it would just having a simple can like the
current one on your current building.
Tom Workman: I can get one of those for about $250.00.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. It's a completely different kind of a package. His
current sign would flt a 2 x 7 length. We would not allow it on the bulldlng
because it wouldn't look very good. What the sign standard people have done are
in our buslness that are managing buildings are concerned about that but every
time, this is a tough logo but everytime you run into a logo, you have a
problem. Some places I've seen it done thls way whlch mlght be a compromise ls
that they simply say the letters can be stacked 2 high. Not to exceed therefore
about 24 lnches. But if you have a logo, the logo helght, the lo9o itself can
go 1 1/2 times the height of your lettering which allows for some flexibility in
design of the slgn if somebody has 11kw, I don't know klnd of oanned logo that
would fit in and that's pretty common to see. Where the logo itself is allowed
to exceed the height of the letter ina lot of nlce looklng buildings. You
don't think about it until you actually have to go out and apply for a sign
permlt whether lt's in Bloomington or Eden Prairle or places like that. I thlnk
the key here though, this slgn is probably a $3,000.00-$3,500.00 sign. We're
paylng for it because that's what we want on that building because we want to
look good. And as far as the professional building question comes up, I have a
doctor that specializes in veins and guess what he wants? Hls choice is to go
to TH 4 and TH 5 or here and he's got equal rent. He wants the one with the
best sign. He's a doctor. He's trylng to decide whether to go in the Flrst
Bank Building. You know where that is? Or here. This is a very standard
problem wlth the current process of marketing these products that people want to
know what their business ls. So I think if you look for a compromise, we could
11mlt the letters to two stacked no hlgher than 2 feet. It's just when we run
into these logo situations that we have to have a little blt of flexibility
because you can't do that one this way.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Any other discussion?
Councilman Wing: I feel I was really being fair to Tom in looking at the 2
feet. I don't know where you saw this sign but I just happened to see a 2 foot
Amerlcan Famlly sign from across a 4 lane road and it was the Amerlcan Family
logo with the agents name and number above it and it was clearly visible so I
tried to relate that to the buildlng wlth thls layout and it just dtd not seem
to be penalizing you to keep within the 2 feet.
Tom Workman: What klnd of sign?
Councilman Wing: That's the key here. It was just a flat, painted board sign.
It doesn't take lnto account the 119hting whlch ls another issue here.
Brad Johnson: His sign right now, the one in front of the building is 2 feet by
7 feet down by MGM. We could put that up as it is with the lettering but that's
not what we want because that's not in keeping with the building. That's where
we're comlng from.
Councilman Mason: Well in my opinion the neon is certainly classier.
37
CLtx Counc]J. Hr.~e~.ing - May 6, J991
Hayor Chm£el moved, Councilma]~ Hasorm seconded to approve Site Plan Amendment
#88-17 to amend the signage plan for Chanhassen Hedical Arts/Ridgeview Hedical
Arts building subject to time following conditions:
1. Thei'e witl be a maximum of 3 signs in Area C.
The maximum sign height wi].l not exceed 36 inches with no individual letters
higher than 12 inches.
Sign covenants shall be revised to prohiblt temporary signage, either wall
moul]ted or ground mounted excepting temporary lease signs for whlch criteria
wll]. be established by staff.
4. Sigll covenants shall be revised to lncZude a statement that a11 slgnage must
be approved and permitted by staff.
5. Traffic sigi]s allowed in accordance with City Codes.
6. The sJ. gn covenants sha].l be drafted in a recordable format and recorded
against the title of tile parcel in question, with the city lnvolved in the
chaln-o f-t it I.e.
Hayor Chmiel and Councilman Hason voted in favor. Councilman Wing and
Councilwoman Dimler opposed. The motion was tied with a vote of 2 to 2.
Cnurlcllman Wing: Mr. Mayor, they have such valid points. In the history of the
uorJd this isn't going Lo make a diddily. We're not even going to get honorable
mention on this one. on the other hand, by voting yes, ~ deny hours and hours
or debate by the Planning Commission who ~ just hold in tile highest esteem.
~lmosL feel gullty belng u~lder pressure here and suddenly maklng these changes.
Z don'L disagree u.i. th [hess people and they're reputable and they do flne work
and Tom, T'm sorry about that vote. This is very difficult to turn on the
PJ. anning Commission for
Counci]woman Dimler: I guess my main point is that it stays with the building
after those two are gone. As much as I'd like to favor them, I just think it
sets a precedent that I may not be able to 1lye with in the future.
Willy Molnau: I'm Willy Molnau. I live at 8541 Audubon Road, Chanhassen. Did
Fort count the number of people that sald aye? How many people are on the
Council?
Mayor Chmiel: There's 5 but one is excused from voting.
Willy Molnau: Well I counted 4 in favor and 2 ~gainst so somebody voted twice.
Mayor Chmlel: No. The questlon was called. Those were for it said aye. There
was 2 and ~hose thai. were opposed said they were opposed so it was 2 to 2.
Willy Molnau: Well from here it sounded different.
Counciluom~n Dlmler~ ]'t's a ti,,.;. Tom has to break tile tie.
38
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, if I could. I don't want prolong this issue and I know
it's rare for 8tad and I to agree on anything like signage, especially in public
but Councilwoman Dimler your suggestion of whether or not thls set a precedent
is a good one but I think Brad's point is well taken. His idea of using a 24
1rich letter helght and then settlng a precedence for a logo that's allowed to be
1 1/2 times higher than the letters makes some sense and that is a standard that
a lot of communities are golng to because logos are often the problem. They're
always the thing that sticks up high or sticks up wide or whatever. That might
not be a bad precedent to consider. It's klnd of tough to conslder that klnd of
precedent on the spur of the moment when it's getting late at a Council meeting
but he's correct. A lot of communities are dolng something like that and that
might be a reasonable thing to consider.
Councilman Mason: I just want to comment on what Councilman Wing said about
negating the Planning Commission. I think we go, I mean certainly we take input
from all commissions and all the people that we hear from and I'm only taklng it
by how I voted. I'm not saying I'm necessarily, I don't disagree with the
design standards that the Planning Commission has set up and I thlnk they're
very valid. However, I do think that as I'm learning more and more about this
job, that lt's not just a design standard that we're looklng at here. Maybe
that's worth nothing.
Councilman Wlng: Z'd 11ke to ask to recall the motlon.
Councilwoman Oimler: I would move to reconsider.
Councilman Wing: Second.
Councilwoman D~mler moved, Councilman W~ng seconded to reconsider the previous
action. All voted ~n favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Mayor Chmiel: I'll entertain a motlon.
Councilwoman Oimler: Okay. At this point then we will move the original motion
as stated by the Mayor wlth the 3 feet and 12 inch letters.
Mayor Chmiel: Does that take into consideration the logo design in itself?
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes. Because of the logo deslgn. And because Paul
indicates that that's going to be a good precedence in the future for signs that
have lighting.
Paul Krauss: Well if I could clarlfy that a blt. The proposal that Brad made
is a little bit different than the proposal that was before you tonight. He was
talklng about a 24 inch letter helght and then i 1/2 tlmes the letter helght for
the logo so the logo could be 36 inches. If that was where you were going with
your motion. I'm not sure but that's what I was agreeing.
Councilwoman Oimler: Well it's not my intent for today to set the limits
forever. What they're asking for, if that isn't going to be a problem in the
future for you, then I would go with the original. That's what they want, the
36. No. Yeah, 36 and 12. Or 10. They wanted 10 but you said 12. Is 12 okay
with you Tom?
39
C~ty Council Hoet.i. ng -- M~y 6, 19~1
Councilman Wo'rk,,ar,: 0~ thc: l~.,.t, ter~?
Mayor Chmir;].: If they go to the 10, that's flne. The problem i.s just as long
as it doesn't exceed it.
Rob Copeland: That's riot that critical. The 10 or the 12 is not the critical
decision.
Councilwoman Dimler'- Okay. So we'll leave it as the Mayor made it then and
then you can go with 10 if you want.
Hayor Chmie].: Okay. Is there a second?
Councilman Mason: SocOl'ld.
Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve Site Plan
Amendment ~88--17 to amend the signage plan for Chanhassen Medical Arts/Ridgeview
Medical Arts building subject to the following conditions:
1. There will be a maximum of 3 signs in Area
2. The maximum sign height wi].1 not exceed 36 inches with no individual letters
higher th~n 12 inches.
3. Sign covenants shall be revised to prohibJ, t temporary signage, either wall
mounted of' grourld mounted excepting temporary lease signs for which criteria
will. be established by staff.
4. SZgn covenants shall be revised to include a statement that all signage must
be approved and permitted by staff.
5. Traffic signs allowed in accordance with City Codes.
The sign covena;lts shall be drafted ina recordable fornlat and recorded
against the title of the parcel in question, with tile clty involved in the
chain-.of-tl
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO CLARIFY ZONING ADMINISTRATOR AS PLANNING DIRECTOR,
FIRST AND SECOND READING.
Mayor Chmiel: Thls does not take very much. I would make a motion that we moue
that the Zol~ing Administrator be cl~anged ~o Planning Director.
Comtnoilwoman Oinller'- I so move.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the first
reading of an amendment to Section 20-1, Definitions, to state that the Zoning
Administrator means Planning Director. Ali voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
4O
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
ZONING ORDINANCE AHENDHENT TO CLARIFY WATER SURFACE USEAGE OROINANC[, FIRST
READING.
Paul Krauss: Thank you Mr. Mayor. As you recall we brought this up before you
as a discussion item at the last meeting. There is a problem that exists in our
surface water utility ordinance relative to how the fee, the quarterly fee is
placed upon agricultural land in rural residential and undeveloped land. What
we've been doing in house is figuring it on a one, you asked. This goes back to
a original discussion with ag land where the Council asked for fairly sensitive
treatment for it where ag land was going to be charged 1 residential unit per
quarter. And we've tried to do that but the ordinance itself didn't exactly say
that. What we've been doing is for every tax parcel that ue find in the ag
district or rural residential, we charge them one unit, the $3.23 every 3
months. What we've done, ueii it's raised some questions in a couple ways. The
original ordinance for example in agricultural land said in agricultural lots
equalled the 40 acres. Technically what we should have done is if somebody had
120 acre lot, we should have charged it the 3 units. We did not do that. A
glitz came about though where you have some individual who owns 3 lots, 3 tax
parcels was getting 3 bills for each one and in one case, the Oegler farm, they
actually combined two lots into a single parcel to avoid that very issue.
Anyway, what ue did was we tried to fix the ordinance so it is now clear that
single family and rural residential lots, agricultural lots and undeveloped lots
are all assigned one unit on a tax parcel basis. We think from an
administrative standpoint this is the easiest way for us to apply it and from an
equity standpoint, it seems to be one of the more fair ways we could do it.
With that we've got the ordinance change for your consideration.
Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Paul. An~ questions? Any discussion?
Councilman Wing: Since this was discussed last meeting, I would move approval
of the first reading of revision to Section 19-142.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Hason seconded to approve the first reading of
the Revision to Section Zg-Z42 of the City Code. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously.
COUNCIL PRESENTATION:
SLIDE SHOW PRESENTED TO THE PLANNING CONNISSION AND PARK AND RECREATION
COHHISSION ENTITLED "PRESERVING THE B~UFF CREEK WATERSHED', PRESENT~O BY PERRY
DEAN AND ERIK ROTH, COUNCILHAN WING.
Paul Krauss: Mr. Dean and Mr. Roth came to talk to Todd Hoffman and myself
several months ago. They grew up in this area and have been hlking Bluff Creek
since they were kids and have become fairly skilled naturalist. Highly
experienced in the kinds of wildlife and plantllfe we find down in Bluff Creek.
Their original intent in coming before Todd and myself was to see if there's
some mechanism that the Clty could use to protect thls area. It's an area
that's basically only been protected by nature of the fact that it's too
difficult to develop. Otherwise the ordinances right now don't do anything
about that. The Clty owns a small section of it that we obtained when some
41
City Cou~cil Neet in9 ~-May G, 3.991
platting was underLake]~. A very large area is or, Bluff Creek Golf Course. What
ue i. ndicated was lhat .;.iT the Comprehensive Plan the idea of being sensitive to
tl~e bluff line and the Bl[t'ff Creek corridor is in the Comprehensive Plan. I
wasn't exact.fy sure on how we'd follow up or, that but the Planning Commission
had already discussed it previously and we've had or, going efforts in that
~'eg.zrd. ~n fact ue do have a bluff line protection ordinance coming to the
Planning ¢o~mission for the first time next week. Now Z don't expect that to be
coming to Few right auaF because ~e're in the process of doing maps to define
th~ bluff lJ. nr; and what we'd like tu do is 'take the opportunity to go back and
notify all (he residents who's property this occurs on and give them an
opportunity to come before the Planning Commission but ue are working on that.
To get tl,e ball rollil]g, we had a presentation given to the Park 8Bard and to
the Planning Commissiol~ and it was quite informative and Councilman ~ing has
asked ti]at ue havre a simi].~r one a~'~'~,ged for tl,e ci~>, Council. ~lso, ue are
hauir,g a tour of Bluff Creek corridor, about an hour long tour this Saturday led
by Mr. Oeamm and Mr. Roth that will leave from the golf course. We've got
permission from ~he golf course. We'll park over in their parking lot and hike
down J.~ th~re fo~' a Fi]'s[ hand Nook at fl,is area at 9:00. With that ~'11 pass
it over.
Cou],ciJ. man Wing: Mr. Mayor, just a quick comment. As Paul mentioned, this was
presented to both Planning Commission and the Park and Rec. ~t one of those
meetings that I attended, somebody made a comment about what had staff done
about pursuing this Bluff Creek issue. I happened to be there and I suggested
at lhat time that it would be inappropriate to do anything unless the City
Council knew wi~at they wef-e talking about and that's when I asked ~r. ~shuorth
J f we could put this on the council agenda so the Council would in fact know
what the commissions were up to, Bi' at least in their thin,king.
Perry Dean: Thank you for inviting us out here. My name is Perry Dean and this
is Erik Roth. As you heard, we grew up in the Lake Hinnetonka area and started
coming down to Bluff Creek in the early 60's. We kind of discovered this you
know a:s school, boys a~d riding dow;, here on our bicycles and we've been coming
down her.¢, for' the past 30 years to what we have come to realize is a very
:.~l>oc.i. aJ. placr;. I think theft very few people even in Chanhassen are aware of
wh~tt you have []ere which J.s really quite a gem. Zt's off the beaten track. It's
he. twa. eh roads. It's between developments. There really isn't any way to get in
there that easily and what has been preserved here is a beautiful example of the
B.[g Woods ecological system characterized by the maple basswood. Here you can
see birch. ¢.ottonuood trees down on the bottom. Oaks. Hickory and of course
the maple and the bas.'-;wood which are the hallmarks of the Blau Forte, as the
fr~:nch called it or the Big Woods. At one time this was a very extensive
r;coJ, ogica1 area which covered south central Minnesota which has been whittled
away ,:~l~d eliminated mainly by agriculture so there are really very few examples
of ~hi.s stitl cxis[.ing. One noted example is Neurstrand Woods down by
Northfield aild another very good example is right here. Bluff Creek. Down in
the valley uJl~ere very, very few people get down ii] here, there are beautiful
wood]and terraces. Very fertile. Very profuse wild flowers in the spring.
L~ighf now it's just ,'-tt the height of the time. I'm sure you see the wild
f!owei'~-; elsewhere in Chanhassen. It's really spectacular. Along the edges of
Bluff Creek are fairly steep cliffs a~l(] this has beel~ part of the reason why it
h~s been so isolated. It's been impossible for development to go in here and it
has not been easy to put roads in here. These cliffs here are in fact natural
42
City Council Heeting- May 6, 1991
features of Bluff Creek. It's just the nature of the material there and the
fact that we are kind of on the edge of the prairie province here. As you go
west along the FlYers, the Hissouri River for example you'll start to see bare
cliffs like this. Zt is a natural process. However, it has been aggravated
particularly by development, agriculture and drainage. This is Bluff Creek. It
probably &s fuller than that right now. Z can almost guarantee. This is a good
year right here. This Picture. Zn fact, Bluff Creek does dry up in drought
years and several times in the ?O's and several times in the 80's. In fact the
bed of the creek was dry for the most part. Here and there a few beds of
springs. This is a case in point. One of the beds of springs which is down at
the bottom of the valley. The lower end of the valley. In fact this is in 21
acres which is owned by the City of Chanhassen and £t's called Bluff Creek Park.
This particular bed of springs right here is probably a good candidate for a
calcareous fen which is a protected sort of very specialized ecological
environment which occurs along the Hinnesota River down, Black Dog Prairie.
There are several others in Savage and I believe that th£s is probably a very
good candidate here too. These calcareous fens are of a special concern like of
the DNR and Hinnesota Heritage Commission because they have a very rare,
specialized suite of plants that live u/th them. The water that comes out of
these springs is very cleat' and it's very rich in the calcareous, the limestone
that you can see in the bed of the creek here. However there are problems.
This is in that same area. The lower end of the creek and over the past few
years due to probably imprudent drainage up on the east side there near the golf
Course. Not actually the golf course itself, one of the gullies has opened up
so enormous amounts of gravel and sand have come down. Many cubic yards of sand
and gravel have come down. Have gone all the way to the delta has gone al1 the
way across the valley and has actually forced the creek onto the far side of the
valley. So it is endangering that spring right there to which is right at the
base of that cedar tree right there. So these are some of the dynamic things
that are happening at Bluff Creek in the valley right now. But much of it is
very pristine. Very beautiful. Definitely worth preserving. This is Bluff
Creek in the winter. A wonderful place to ski. Maybe not for everybody but
it's a beautiful place to ski. Now the valley of Bluff Creek is an open
textbook of the geology of Chanhassen and just a brief synopsis has to do with
the Wisconsin glaciation which of course came through this area 12,000 years
ago. This was the last glacier of the ice age. Came through, the Des Moines
Lobe in particular came down from northwestern Minnesota and Manitoba lowlands.
Scooped up enormous amounts of limestone and cretaceous shale and gives the
glacial drift the characteristic light color that it has here. Subsequent to
that, the Des Moines Lobe retreated northward after dumping enormous amounts of
material here in Chanhasse forming what's called a terminal marine with many
lakes and swamps and it's what characterises the topography of Chanhassen. As
the glacier retreated northward it dammed up an enormous lake in northwestern
Minnesota called Lake Ogasies. This lake drained down through the Minnesota
River valley. Formed the Minnesota River valley. Cut down through all these
deposits and then Bluff Creek of course is a tributary of that. This all just
happened in the last 10,000 years which by geological standards is very recent,
but very interesting history nevertheless. Here you can see the material that's
been deposited. I'm sure if yOU live in Chanhassen it has a very familiar look
to it. Clay and lots of banding of iron. Here's a little lethology lesson.
The rock material. You probably have seen the stippled pebbles on the right
there which are limestone which has been stained with iron...in the drift. The
iron solution has come around and stained the pebbles. And on the bottom you
City Council. Meeting - Itay 6, 1991
see Iht; c'r'e, taceous shale and granlte on the left there and the piece of
].imeanlt. e wl',ich is iron or~., another Minnesota feature ill the upper left hand
there. But you can see that 11ght color ls due to the very, very hlgh content
of .limestone in thr-; drift. In fact, in places it is so rich in limestone
powder, powdered limestone that lt's actually formed a natural concrete 11ks
~.l~i.:~ and this ~.s somet, hing I've never' seen anywhere else. It seems to be a
unique feature to thls particular area of Chanhassen and southern Lake
Minnetor, ka ~rea. But it actually forms boulders of material which looks very
much 11ks concrete and thls ls of course the same materlal that they've quarried
over in Chaska fei' the Chaska brick which you see in a lot of the old farm
houses and farm buildings. But the forest in Bluff Creek lsa classlc example
of tl,e maple basswood forest. Many maples and basswood and at one tlme many elm
trees but of course the elm holocaust came through Chanhassen in the late 70's
and 80's so now there's many large trucks of dead elms lylng around on the floor
i.n varlous parts of the valley. And they're belng succeeded by the winners in
tills s£tuatlon whJ.~';h ,~re the maple trees which has been their strategy to sit
many, many, nlany little seedlings on the forest floor waltlng for that 11ght to
o~:cu-r- a~d ti,on they all bolt upwards. So it ls selecting for maple which is I
II,ink a desireable quallty. Here's a couple of the maples. Of course thls ls,
tile name Ch,~nhassen ~s maple tree in Oakota. These are the same two trees with
the.~r fall follage and they do the same thlng every year. One tree is gold and
the one tree is red and they're both sugar maples. Other trees are red oaks and
white oaks. This is whlte oak here. And on the forest floor, particular in
maple forests, they're very rich because of the enormous amount of nutrients
that maple trees in particular draw up into thelr leaves and when they drop them
on ~he foresL floor it enriches the soil. So particular in maple forests you'll
see just lncredJ, bly rich undergrowth, wlld flowers, etc.. Here we have rue
,.~nemones, yellow woodland violets, rattlesnake fern and purple vlolets. These
are the flrst flowers to appear each sprlng. These are the hepatacus and you
probably see them in other places in Chanhassel~. In Bluff Creek they just
carpet the floor. On some of the terraces lt's just incredible to see the
dlsplay which is actually going on right now. It's currently happening. The
first week in May is the helght of the tlme. And then the bloodroots are an
early flower that come in. Virgil~ia waterleaf. Red bainberry. Many forms.
Wide variety of ferns. These are maidenhair ferns here. You can see it's a
very lush growth. These are lady ferns. Cutleaf tooth warts. A wide variety
of flowers ~n here. I thlnk lt's one of the most spectacular dlsplays of wlld
Flowers that. I've seen in the Metro area. And there are some rare and
protected plants here. These are the yellow lady slippers. There are showy
orchids ill hero and we've also found glngseng in Bluff Creek which is an
endangered plant. At one tlme it was very common in the Minnesota woodlands and
g.f. sconsin woodlands but it has been hunted to the edge of extinction because of
it's medicinal properties of lt's root. It's been harvested so there's very few
p.l. aces who. re it st111 remains but there is gingseng in Bluff Creek. Down in
some of the lower parts of the valley there are actually open grassy areas whlch
~re native prairies. They're actually native prairies down there with the
c].asslc natlve prairie grasses, side oats gramma and there are some of the
i~rairie flowers. This is th~; hairy pecoon here. So Bluff Creek has a wide
variety of habitats. Here you can see some of the cedar trees. It has 11tile
open meadows. ~t has many, many areas for wlldlife to live. Very protected
area. ~ulte an ecosystenl there. There's a deer herd in there. A number of
deer. Ill t.h~; ?O's beaver moved into the nortller-n part of the valley and started
moving down and buildlng dams and significantly changing the nature of the
44
City Council Heeting - Hay 6, 1991
valley and then they ali got washed out in 1986, or whenever the super storm
w.zs. '86 I g~es~ that was. All the beaver dams got washed out and ue really
haven't much sign of them since but there's quite a bit of wildlife in here.
Beaver and racoons and fox. I'll just leave you with this parting shot. It's a
beautiful gem of a place and like I say, very few people know about this. We
would be very happy to take you down there as announced uhich will be this
coming Saturday at 9:00. We'll be meeting at the Bluff Creek Golf Course. And
with that I'll turn it over to Erik Roth who will talk to you about some of the
work that he has done in the past. Things that are ongoing now and then maybe
some things in the future. Thank you very much.
Erik Roth: Thank you. I'll just be brief here. We are abbreviating our
program from what ue gave at the Planning Commission and Park Board with respect
to the late hour. But one of the distinguishing qualities of this valley and
the feature which probably more than anything else up to now has maintained it's
seclusion and protected it was the railroad that had it's grade maintained by an
earthen dike built across the mouth of the valIey and then there's a culvert
that goes through that. This is on the bluff looking across the railroad below
~nd then the Minnesota River valIey in the distance. This is the creek running
through that culvert. Emptying down into the Hinnesota River wetlands and right
above that, on top of the railroad tracks Iooking up creek you can see the Iouer
part of the valley. The part that Perry was describing that holds some of the
prairie land and the property that Chanhassen owns. On the previous slide in
the far distance, this picture was taken looking back now. The shadow running
across the center of the picture is off that railroad embankment and as
I proceed here, most of the remaining slides that I have are taken within the
valley. And if I might quote from some remarks made by Frederick Law Olmstead
who was requested to advise the Minneapolis Park Board when it was trying to get
organized back in the Iast century. In 1886 he said that the most important
condition a permanent value in a park is that it shall be self contained. That
is, that the recreation of it's naturai scenery shaI1 not be disturbed and
neutralized by the mingling with it's proper scenes of objects of different
characters such as houses situated on high ground about it and that cannot be
planted out. One of the special qualities of this valley is that once you're
within it, the whoIe outside world is totaiiy unknown to you and you are in a
world apart from it all. And so one of the qualities which is, as Olmstead was
remarking on, pertinent to the aesthetic nature of a park, here aIso is an
advantage to the ecological character of this place. And besides the main creek
course there are tributary valleys which also are rich in a variety of wiidlife
and environments. And as you can tell, it definitely looks as though it could
be anywhere in the North Woods and hardIy in a deveIoping region such as this.
Over the years we've tried to alert various organizations about this valley.
We've taken members of the Nature Conservancy down through it's course. We've
given presentations to the Riley-Purgatory-Bluff Creek Watershed District
managers. Talked to one of Paul Krauss' precedessors on the Chanhassen Planning
Commission and have had a real favorable response now by both the Planning and
the Park Commissions so we're very eager to take as many people as we can to
this place. We think once it's known, it can sell itself. Here is one of the
more prominent bluffs giving the name to the creek. It truly is a spectacular
place and Jt seems to be deceptive in scale as well. It looks to this picture
lik~ it's quite vast, although the edges are quite thin. In fact here you can
see right through and along the bluff line and this picture can indicate how
precious each individual tree is along that bIuff line. The changes that
Hay 6, 19~l
~atLtr;i]].y occur over tln~o aTld in any ecological environment can be tolerated so
].c~n?, ,'~.-$ ~her,'.~ .[.r~ ,~ ~ffLc~ent ~n,~rg.in ,~d so we're ,~nx~ous that you consider
protecting not on~x the v~]e/ f~oor or ~t's side but a ~tt~e of ~t's edges
w~].. ~nd ~:s Fnel that J.f you do so, Lh~s could be qu~te a s~gn~f$cant
component to your comprehensive p.t~,r~ of green space mhd open space for the ~ho~e
oF Cl~tm~hassem~. There h~is bee~ so,ne development in recent years. We don't have
very many pJ.c:tures of that. Generally we've been taking pictures of the more
uJ.J.d t l~J. ngs. There I~ave been houses built fro~, the subdivided f~zrms that are
oh tl~e edges now. There is of course a goJ. f course along one side. But as you
kaou, the whole landscape of Cha~hassen itself is changing rapidly and a scene
~;uch as this J.s going 'Lo be part of the past by and large. Z ~ould hope that
[f.tl'~s cou].d ~l:j..tJ. be Zntegrated into this com~munity but certainly as far as
Blu'Ff Creek lo concerned, serene protection ls necessary, especially ulth the
comJ. ng of H~ghuay 212 which u111 cross t. his pLctLtre. BLuff Creek falls below Ln
the dj. stance here but we fee]. that the lmpact of that highway, as well as the
continued deueZop~nent and the turnlng of farmland into housing u111 bring ~uch
more pressure onto this property and make it even more valuable. So if Z mlght
.i~sL c~ncZude by one more rem,~rk quoted from the same history of the HinneapolLs
p~rk system. The principle architect of Hi~neapolls' park system uhlch
Pr¢~fr-~ssor CleveLand who in hJ.s remarks Ln 1883 to the City of HinneapoZLs. He
sCald, pardon n~e for thus due111ng upon a subject with details of which you must
br~ morn Fam.[].i~zt' than Z can be. Hy ,~m~ly object is to Zfnpress thZs point
st.'rongly upon you when cor~slderin9 the arra~gement of the system of parks and
pubtLc L~nprovemnents. Zf you have raj. th J.n the future greatness of your city, do
rmot shri~k from ::;et:wring uhlle yOLt ~ay such areas as wlll be adequate to the
u,~nts of smith ;t ¢;ity. Do not be appalled at the thought of appt'oprLzting lands
uhic:h meem now too costly slmply because they are far out of proportion to your
present wants. That was precisely the feeling uhJ. ch prevented the purchase of
Nice]Jet Ts].and when it might have bee~ had for a sum uhlch now seems
c:ontempLable. Look forward for a century to a time when the city has
popu].~t.ion of a ~,1111on and think what uil]. be their ~ants. They uill have the
ue,~l~h eno~gl~ to purchase a11 that money cam~ buy but all theZr wealth cannot
purchase this lost opportunity or restore ~atural features of grandeur and
hur~uty uh.~ch would then possess price.tess value Ln which you can preserve for
~hr::m ~f yOU w~l} but S~y the word and save them from the destruction uhlch
c~rtaLnJy awaits them Jf yo~ fail [o utter it. Z mlght also add that
Cleve].and said that he chose to be lgnorant of the ownership of all of the
proper~y in which I~e was corms~derZng in making hls recommendations to
HJ. nneapolls so that he might be not swayed in that regard and bls lnterest be
only for ~he public good. Z mlght say that even though ue ha~e followed the his
hirstory of this valley for about 30 years, we too are relatively lgnorant of who
owns uhr:tt property. ~t nonetheless is something which Z bring to your attention
now. It certainly has a prlce but we feel at the same time ls really priceless.
Thank you very much.
Mayo'r' Chmiei: Thank you. App'recJ. ate it. Absolute pure wonder:~ent that exists
within our own city. Tt's really neat to see that somebody takes the interest
that. you do. We. really appreciate the fact that you took time out to come down
here and show us t l~is. Z know the one set up for 9:00 on Saturday, Z can't be
tl~ere. Z'v~.,. got to be down to the airport unfortunately picking Ltp some people
but sol, ett~[,e T. roJght .just explore that area and just walk through. There really
..~re thinqs there that you ,~lst don't have within the city anywhere else.
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
Councilman Workman: I can be there.
Councilman Mason: I'm planning to be there.
Councilman Workman: I stood on the bluff of Daryl Peterson's farm. That's
right across the border in Eden Prairie. When you stand on that bluff right
above TH 212 and this isn't exactly near Bluff Creek. You stand on that bluff
and you can see Belle Plaine. You can see Savage.
Mayor Chmiel: You can see further.
Coul~cilwoman Oimler: There's a song like that isn't there? On a clear day you
can see forever.
Mayor Chmiel: There will be 3 of the council people there. Thank you.
MINNESOTA SUBURBAN NAACP MEETING, MAYOR CHMIEL.
Mayor Chmiel: Next item on the agenda is, I just wanted to briefly mention
this. I'd 11ke hopefully someone to be able to attend. I got a letter from the
Mayor of the City of Edina requesting that we have someone attend the Suburban
NAACP. It's going to be held at the City of Edina at 11:00. I unfortunately am
going to have to be out of town in Redwing all day that day so if there's anyone
who could make that, please indicate. If not, I'd like to have someone from
staff attend it if none of the count11 people would be able to. I certainly
would like to see someone take that time out to find out.
Councilman Wing: It's on a Wednesday?
Mayor Chmiel: This coming Wednesday. In fact, tomorrow.
Councilwoman Dimler: Day after tomorrow.
Councilman Workman: I'm unable to attend.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'm not able to elther.
Mayor Chmiel: Richard.
Councilman Workman: I've been contacted by these people.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. We get letters each year.
Councilman Workman: I mean as a business person who's a city council member.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, we'll keep moving. Next item on the agenda is, let's move
to 9(c) and then we'll go up to the comprehensive plan. Once we've addressed
that, we can save maybe a dollar or two.
MOON VALLEY AGGREGATE UPDATE, CITY ATTORNEY.
EJliott Knetsch: Okay, an update on Moon Valley would be that there was a
motion in Court recently. The Court upheld the Clty's ordinance. Sald we dld
C..iI:x C. ounc..il. Mer-c. Li~r,~.I --M~y 6, .!991
I~aue t,h~ 'r.i. yht to require Noon Val.ley [o come i1~ and get a permit. So they are
to do that within 30 days of the Court order. Paul,, notl~.[r~cj has changed? We
haven't heard from them?
Paul Krauss: No. 'rhey have not been in contact.
E11iott Knetsch: If they fail to come in and get a permit, then we go back to
~.:our[ Lo shut them down. It's as simple as that. ~f they do come in and apply
'For a permlt, then we go through the permit process. There's a number of areas
~;c.'.l.1. ~.~et into. If th.':y tl~£nk something .is onerous or unreasonable and it can't
be worked out between the clty and them, agaln it could go back to Court. So at
I.l~is poJ. n~. we're .iu,[ waiting for their application.
['au]. Krauss: .T ti~ink it's falr to say that we've got a long and frustrating
road cthead of us with these guys. My guess ix that they're likely to come in
u.ith a completely inadequate application just before the deadline and then we'll
have I.o contest [hat they didn't adequately meet the ordinance. And then when
ue actually do grant thenl approval with cond.i, tions, they'll flght the
condJtlonrs. ?,o be prepared for ~ long bumpy road on this one. I keep getting
calls from some of the residents down there that keep saying well dldn't you
promise me this and that. ~. sa.id no. We told you that it was going to be
litigated to death. Terry and Dick Vogel and there's two or three others that
c,..~]l, fairly often oi~ i[. We've also, Roger is researching, one of the issues
[hat came up a long time ago was whether they had a right to be digglng up on
top. Whether or not tibet was grand fat hered ln. We're re-researching that and ~
h,avt~n't heard back but ~ know Roger sald Jim WalsLon has been dlgging through
the propr~.rr.y tax rr-:cords on that so we'll do everything we can but ~ know that
ue'vr-: got a fundamental difference of oplnlon with Mr. Zwlers. Z had a meeting
with hi,~ about a month and a half ago when they talked about coming in for a
permSt, which they never dld, and Toni was basically. The ordinarlce says you've
go~. to g.[vr~, us information on where the mat. ure trees are on the property and his
r,¢sponse was, well why do Z have to do that. Z'm cutting down every one of them
.',.nyuay. So T_ t. hink we're Colnlng from two different points of view on that. By
the way, this bluff li~e ordJ. nance does factor lnto thls a 11ttle blt. Now of
course t~,e're not doing this bluff 11ne ordinance to do anything to Moon Valley
but it affects the same area so we're havlng Roger take a look at that as well.
Hayer Chm.i.e].: Any questions? Ok;tx, appreciate Lt. Thank you.
UPDATE ON COHPREHENSIVE PLAN, PLANNING DIRECTOR.
P~tul Krauss: We're getting down to the wire o1~ this. The Metro Council ix
:-'.:cheduled to hear us Jn committee a week from Thursday at 2:00 p.m. and then the
Metro C~,uncll itse.l.[ is scheduled to hear it the followiI~g Thursday at 4:00
p.m.. We've not gotten any written responses from thelr staff. I've supplled
tl~em volumes of information it seems like. Last we heard, they're looklng for
rationale to support approving the plan but until I see it on paper Z'm not
go.Ll~.q to belleve it.
Mayor ChmJe]: Amen.
Paul Krauss: We've been working with the City Manager and the Mayor and I have
h~.:~.n worki~g clos,~]y wifh our Metro Council rep. We met with Mary Anderson, [he
48
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
new chair. Don knows her. We had lunch with her and Bonnie Featherstone and
we've been basically trying to touch all the bases on this, If we have a
favorable recommendation from their staff, I think it will go through. If we
don't, frankly we wanted to be in a position to pull out all the stops and make
as much noise as possible and that includes asking yourselves and the Planning
Commission to come down u£th some large property owners and potential
developers. I've talked to a number of those. They're willing to do it as
well. So Z will keep you posted. I've got a call into them, into the council
staff basically asking them when we can expect a report. Hopefully I'll hear
tomorrow. I've also got a call into Dirk DeVries who is not our representative
but he's the representative from Minnetonka and Eden Prairie. I've known Dirk
for a long time. He, I believe is the chair of the first committee we have to
go to so I was going to ask him what sort of expectations they have from us in
presentations and what not. Along those lines, I just received word. I think
most of you might have heard that the Mayor and I were interviewed by Mike
Walcher, WCCO TV about a month ago. They're doing a story, oT' a series of
stories on rapidly growing areas in the Twin Cities. I believe it starts
tomorrow night. We're the focus of one of their segments and I just heard it's
going to air at 10:00 on Wednesday on Channel 4.
Councilman Wing: Talking about NSP or Chanhassen?
Paul Krauss: It was Chanhassen. I'm not sure what they're going to use but I
know they, we gave them a 11st of. They asked the Mayor and I a series of
questions and.
Mayor Chmiel: It will be interesting to see what's going to be there.
Paul Krauss: Yeah, we had discussed it ahead of time and the premise was that
we wanted to make it clear that Chanhassen is not lnto thls for growth for
growth sake but we're into this for quality development and we dldn't have a
number we were shootlng for. We just wanted to do it rlght. They also
interviewed Chrls Polster and his family as being representative of new
residents to the community. ! thlnk that about updates you.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah I just wanted to bring one quick thing out. Jim Curry,
working with Mr. Oulnn to resolve the lssue of the trees and bls furnishing
$2,962.00 worth just to satisfy the neighbors and adjacent. I think that's...
for Mr. Curry and thank you.
Councilwoman Dimler: Z do too. Yes, thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: There's only one other thing that I just wanted to address and
I shot past it real qulck. In the Administrative section we had letters from
Mrs. Steln's 3rd grade class ulth all the questions they were asking about
recycling. I think that's the stage and age that we really have to start
addressing it right now so we have that continuance golng on wlth the education
regarding recycling and all their specific questions that they had asked. I
thlnk that's pretty neat that they take the position, even in third grade and
moue on with lt. I just wanted to say keep it up kids. You're dolng great.
You're golng to be the leaders of our soclety and hopefully we can put them in
the right direction until they get older. Other than that I will entertain a
motion for adjournment.
City Council Heeti~ig - Hay 6, 1.991
Councilman Mason: Cai', ~., just one really quick comment. You know we faced I
tl',ink prob,~l)l/ two ~f the most contentious issues since I've been on the
co[lnc.i. 1. Ha/be? I don't know.
Councilwoman Oiml~?.r.' Since you've been on.
Councilman Mason: Yes, since T've been on and I think there truly is this
r.~_ling at least amongst the Councll that there will be disagreements And we
ml.gt~t be shouting and screaming at each other but we have one common goal in
mind I~ere and that was just, it was really refreshing for me tonight. There was
some tension.
COl.~ncJlwo,,an Oimler: Wasn't that fun?
Councilman Hason: Yeah. It's neat that I think we're all working together for
th~: same thing here. That's a11.
Ha?or Chmiel: Don has one other thing.
Don Ashuorth~ I just passed out, Don and Ursula and I had met with our
representatives thls mornlng. Thls was correspondence from that meetlng. What
I had you sign was tile Hennepin County property tax issue. We had no protests
from Hennepin County so you could slgn off on that one.
Councilman Wing: Whatt about the motion in regaYds to the...we have a Recycling
Committee that gets very little advertising that does an incredible job but is
real1?, T f. hlnk deserve~ recognition. Z'd like to offer the public recognition
,and ask that this be forwarded to them if it has not been.
Iq.,~.~y~.~r Cllmie].: I believe it probably has been.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to adjourn the meeting. All
voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10:45 p.m..
Submitted by Oon Ashworth
CEty Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
5O