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1991 04 08CH~NH~SSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR HEETING APRIL 8, 1991 Mayor Chmlel called the meetlng to order at 7:30 p.m.. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. HEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Mason, Councilman Workman, Councilman Wing and Councilwoman 0imler STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Todd Gerhardt, Charles Folch, Paul Krauss, and Roger Knutson APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the agenda with the following additions: Paul Krauss wanted to discuss under Administrative Presentations establishing a task force to asslst staff in choosing a consultant for the Surface Water Utility Program; Councilman Wing wanted to set a breakfast meetlng for the Clty Councll goals revleu; and Councilman Workman wanted to discuss the golf course committee. All voted in favor of the agenda as amended and the motion carried. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: PROCLAMATION DECLARING 'BUILDING SAFETY WEEK', APRIL 8-12, 1991. Resolution ~91-26: Councilwoman Dlmler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the Proclamation declaring the week of April 8-12, 1991 as Building Safety Week. All voted in favor and the motlon carried unanimously. CONSENT AGENDA: Don Ashworth: Just a quick note. The handout that I had given to the City Council represents three additional final closings that we had mlssed and should be added to that ltem. Mayor ChmLel: Item (d). Don Ashworth: So in approving that, recognize that those three would be a part of that. If that's alright. Mayor Chmlel: Any questions regarding those transfers? Councilman Workman: Oon, can you explain those? What that's about? Don Ashworth: The three I just handed out? Councilman Workman: In general. Don Ashuorth: In general they represent capital. Most of those are capital construction accounts. There are monies left in there or there may be minor shortfalls. For example, Lake Ann we completed the construction that was a grant from the State. About $220,000.00. I think the total project went to $235,000.00. Most of the 1rems were beyond our control. The Park Commission City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 was aware of that. This transfer take monies from the Park acquisition and development fund and puts it into that capital project fund so it can be closed. The same way with Lake Susan. Most of those that you had on the other list in the agenda fall under the same category. Others are right out of the budget really would not need to be repeated but typically we do put those in so we have one spot to look at for ail transfers. Mayor Chmiei: Okay, any other discussions? If not, can I have a motion for items t (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (g), (i), and (k). Co[lncilwoman Dimler: I so move. Councilman Workman: Second. Councilwoman Oimler moved, Councilman ~orkman seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: b. Approve Plans and Specifications for Utility Improvements to Chan Haven Plaza Third Addition, Project 91-2. c. Accept Offer from MnDot for Permanent Easement Easement Necessary for Highway 5 Upgrade. d. Resolution ~gl-27: Approve Year End Closings and Transfers. e. Zoning Ordinance Amendments, Final Readings: 1) Definition of Structures 2) Definition of Accessory Structures f. Conditional Use Permit for the Installation of a 70 square foot sign, 7910 Dakota Avenue, Slnclalr 0il. g. Conditional Use Permit for a Restaurant, Located at Seven Forty-One Crossing Center, Sang Cam Ky, Happy Gardens II. k. Rosemount Purchase of Lot 1, Block 3, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 2nd Addition: 1) Rescind Conditions Against Original Plat 2) Approve Restrictive Covenants All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. J. CITY COUNCIL MINUTES AND PLANNING COHHISSION HINUTES: Councilman Mason: Just on the City Council Minutes, on page 4. I'm quoted as saying about the, I'm a little concerned that we're letting people sell liquor to under aged chlldren but yet they get arrested. There should be a don't between the they and get. That's it. Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Would you like to move that particular item? City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Councilman Hason moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to approve the City Council M1nutes dated March 25, 1991 as amended and the Planning Commission Hinutes dated Hatch 20, 1991 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. VISITORS PRESENTATIONS: None PUBLIC HEARING: HEARING AS A RESULT OF UIOLATIONS FOR SELLING LIQUOR TO MINORS, HGH LIQUOR WAREHOUSE, BROOKS SUPERETTE AND HOLIDAY STATION STORES, APPROVAL OF 1991/92 LICENSES. Public Present: Name Address Todd Preuschl Richard Larson Deputy Larry King Holiday Station Stores HGM Liquor Warehouse Carver County Sheriff's Department Mayor Chmiel: Anyone wishing to address this specific item at this time? Don? Oon Ashworth: Would you like me to give an overview? ~t the last City Council meeting the Council looked at pending on and off sale liquor licenses. As a part of that process, staff does inform the City Council of any infractions that had occurred during the past year. The three you had noted occurred on one evening and in talking with the police and Sheriff's Department, they really felt that we would not have this type of problem into the future. That they had talked with the three parties and felt again that it would not be a problem. The Council action was to allow staff to continue processing those applications so there was nothing, no action taken by the City Council that would take away from those licenses. However, the City Council did ask that the three parties come before you and really talk about how or what they are doing to insure that this type of incident would not occur into the future. The Council has a copy of the letter that was sent to each of the three property owners and I see that Mr. Larson is here but I'm not sure I know. Is anyone here from Brook's7 Mayor Chmiel: I don't see anyone here. They were all informed and requested to be here? Don Ashworth: Yes. All three received, well in fact in most instances the letter went to 2 or 3 individuals. The clerk or person who was involved with the incident on that night. The owner, if local such as Mr. Larson and then the company in cases like Brook's or Holiday. Mayor Chmiel: Being we have two of the people here, I guess what we're really looking to see ls to have you come up here and tell us how you're'going to try to eliminate. Not try but eliminate the problems that existed and maklng sure the people that are being sold either beer or liquor are really checked out fully. It is a concern to the Counc11. We look at it from two different standpoints. C.~ty Count.ti. Heeting - Apf'J_). 8, :1991 Todd Preuschl: Okay. In the past we are ali trained to card everybody regardless of age, within reason and that's been the strlct guidelines by Holiday. They have a pollcy set regardless of who's working welling cigarettes o~- alcohol beverages to minors, it won't be tolerated by the store. First time lsa 3 day suspension which our clerk dld recelve without pay. Second tlme ls immediate termination and prosecutLon under the full extent of the law. She's a very, well the person J.t happened to, she's working right now as a matter of fact. She ls one of my most trusted and valued employees and I'm sure this is just an isolated incident. Z haven't had any problems other than this one tlme in the year that I've been manager at the store. In fact we've caught quite a few people as far as forgers and thleves as far as we finally got ahold of the condom thlef and so forth. AJ. so some other youngsters trying to get away with suJ. tching beer from 12 packs of Coke to 12 packs of beer. Dolng the old switcharoo and we caught them. Z think they're belng prosecuted at this moment. Z'm not sure. But as far as Z know, we've done all thlngs posslble as far as our company guidelines are set in conjunction with the State guidelines too. Mayor Chmlel: Are there speciflc requirements that you indicate to your employees when they come on board? Todd PreuschJ: Yes. Z personally traln every employee that walks through the door now. They work with me for one week. Then they're cut free with assistants. My assistant manager, Z have two now thank 6od. But Z've been under staffed for about a year but it's not becomlng fully staffed agaln. ~ had some problems there but they got ironed out now. Z haven't had any problems slnce then. Our store's been runnLng pretty well. Hopefully it looks nlce for the community and services everybody well. I hope so anyway. Mayor Chmiel: ~ think that's right. It does. The only thing is as I said. We ju,st, maybe the rest of the Counc11 would 11ke to say something. Councilwoman Oimler: I'd gust like to ask. Did I hear you say that you card everybody ulthln reason unless they're obviously? Todd Preuschl: Yes. Everybody uithln reason. Councilwoman Oimler: Okay, so why the sllp up obviously here? Todd Preuschl: I don't know. I wasn't there myself that particular evening. I was glven a telephone call as soon as the incldent occurred and I came out to the station immediately. I'm only 5 minutes from the station so. I'm sure they were extremely busy. I'm not even sure which nlght. It's been so long ago I can't remember what night it actually happened. It could have been a shipment night when we have boxes laylng everywhere and one person in the securlty area and she's just trying to get the people flowing out the door. That's a very good possibility. Councilwoman Dlmler: But you plan to keep that pollcy? Todd Preuschl: Absolutely. That is a directive from our main office. It's also my directive and I was really tee'd off at her because she dldn't follow my directive. I've told them all hundreds and hundreds of times so the next tlme she's, i[ doesn't matter what happens. She may be a valued employee but she City Council Heeting - April 8, 1991 uill hit the road the next time if it ever happens again. That includes myself. If it happens to myself, the same thing applies. So it doesn't matter who you are. Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else? If not, thank you. Appreciate it. Dick? Richard Larson: Good evening. Richard Larson, HGH Liquor Warehouse, Chanhassen and Waconla. A couple of points from my business' standpoint. The second thlng that I did in September of 1982. The first thing of course was receiving my 11cense from the City of Chanhassen. The second thlng was to establish repolre with the Carver County Sheriff's Department, at that time Chief Jack Hendrickson and arrange for the implementation of off duty deputies to work in our establishment expressly for the purpose of checking ID's. This was set up on a weekend only basis and to thls day occurs that way unless we feel we have some reason to bring them in on special duty basis. The reason I bring this point up ls I would 11ke to stress to the Council and to the City of Chanhassen that our number one priority since day one is to run a clean operation. We know we're a regulated industry. We understand the implications of intentionally or unintentionally mistakenly sell to an underaged, intoxicated or even for that matter, belligerent individual. What we have been doing, we've been open now for 9 1/2 years. This is our first chargeable offense. The individual in question has been employed at the store part tlme. Full time durlng the day, part time in the evenings, for a little over 5 years. He's a 34 year old gentleman. I myself also was not there on the nlght of the incident. I did talk to the person in questlon and my obvious question of course to begin with was, how come you dldn't card hlm? The response from the individual was that the person appeared old enough. I've never seen the individual in question. I have no 1dew and I'm not using that as an excuse but the guy that did not card him is a guy who is one of our most aggressive checkers. The Hinnesota Licensed Beverage Association is an industry association that we are a member of and have been for the last 10 years. It is an organization that not only helps our industry, legislatively, politically, but also allows individual owner/operators the advantage of training, both preventive and well for that matter defensive. It's kind of the nature of our business. And all of our employees are required to attend what they call TM seminars which are Trainer Management seminars. Not only in the identification of a potential underaged situation but also the identification of intoxicated or otherwise influenced customers. It's something that I've always done. I've always stressed. I am confident that my 13 employees here in Chanhassen, my 7 employees in my Waconia operation, I could obviously parade them all in here and sing song in verse of the training that they receive. It's an ongoing program. I'm an owner/operator. I'm in the store. Some of those in this room are customers and I think that for those who know me, they understand that what I say is how things go. I'm a hands on operator. Always have been and I am here to answer any questions. I also have Deputy Larry King with me for one reason and that is Deputy King has been the scheduler of our security since 1984. Bob Bergman did it before that and I felt that Larry, not representing Carver County Sheriff's Oepartment but representing myself in the 9 years of our relationship, understands how we run our operation. How his deputies are instructed. What they're to do and he's here to answer questions that may come up. I am here now to address any questions that you, the members of the Council and the Mayor would have. City Council Meetin9 -- Apr'il 8, 1991 Hayor ChmJel: Good. Thank you. Does anyone have any specific questions at this time? Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I'll ask the same question. Do you card everybody? Richard Larson: No. It's a very difficult question that's been since 1933 I suppose. I don't know. What we do is we try to establish guidelines. There are certain procedures that you follow. Obviously physlcal appearance. Actually the second question that comes after physlcal appearance, if there's a question, you look at some of the thlngs that people do. You look at whether or not the person that's standing on the other side of the counter ls looking at yo~l o~ looklng down or to the slde. You look and see, for some reason lt's very significant what they're wearlng both male and female. We've trled different policies. We've trled the pollcy card everybody. It's a good policy but there's a catch. If for example Councilwoman Oimler you're in line. I'd like to say that you probably need to be carded but if we have a pollcy that everybody needs to be carded and you're there to make a purchase. You don't have your lO. What do we do? You're probably 21. Z would say that you probably are but tl'le person that was in line behind Councilwoman Oimler is 21. I sell you your goods and you go on your' way and I ask that young man for an identification. He says bi.it I've got mine. Here it is but you sold to her and sh~ didn't have it. Why? It's an unusual situation but you're discriminating. So we've tried anyone that appears 30 and under. Okay? A 21 year old cle~'k's opirllon of who appears 30 and under ls much different than a 38 year old so what we h~ve done is we use the tr~inlng that's offered to us through our organization. It's a step by step procedure of looking at the customer. Identifying the situation. Watch their body language ~nd go from there. Councilwoman Dinller: I was in a restaurant once and they had the cutest little button and I don't thlnk it offended anybody. It said, you've got the cutest little baby face, may I see your ~D and they card everybody and I don't mlnd lt. Richard Larson: Again, those have been offered to our organization stateuide on many occasions. We've tried that. I don't know why certaln people become offended by asking for identification, be they 21 or 85 but we have found that that's the case. Men more so than women. Sometimes a confrontation arlses between a clerk and a customer simply for asking the question when in fact the answer is obvious. And untll we figure out a way to solve that problem, I thlnk we'~'e going to have to stick with the guidelines that have been set up. Actually Robert Schafer who ls the drug and alcohol kind the of the guru at the University of Minnesota is the one that has set this program up. Sharp individual. They're studied all these, the good, the bad, the pluses, the minuses and this is what we run with. We have to. Any suggestions that we could receive from anybody, including the Council of course would be more than welcomed as this ls an issue that we've wrestled with for a number of years. It's a difficult issue to deal with. Hayor Chmiel: ()kay. Anyone else? Councilman Wing: Did you want to call on Deputy King? Hayor Chmiel: If he'd like, sure. Would you like to come up Larry? City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Larry King: He's already issued my disclaimer so I won't say anything more about that. But any questions about scheduling or any of the duties we have within MGM, I could probably answer those. Councilman Wing: Can you at all represent a deputy that served Chanhassen for decades wlth a question? Larry King: I was assigned to Chanhassen for about 12 years. Councilman Wing: Yes sir. All I wanted to know, Larry we had 3 right in a row. MGM, Brook's and Holiday all had this same violation occur in a short period of time. You've been in the city a lot and worked wlth us a lot. Were these random historic events or might we have a problem? Might there be a need to clamp down in your oplnlon? I mean here's 1, 2, 3. They happen random but maybe these things are going on constantly up until someone brought'attention to it. Would you conslder these irrelevant events or something to be clamped down on and watched much closer from this point on? Larry King: Even one sale, I don't know if you could call it irrelevant but I think in the world of realities, there's always been and probably will always be some under aged purchase and consumption untll the system's developed that's full proof. As long as there's human beings involved in the sale, there will be some mlstakes over tlme. From an enforcement standpoint, I would be most alarmed if we were gettlng consistent information or responsible individuals reporting somebody regularly selllng to individuals under aged. Or people of age who were supplying. Those are leads that law enforcement, we foilow up on on a regular basls. But from the store's standpoint, we were hlred by MGM to do one thing and one thing only and that was to stay at the front of the door. We don't look for shoplifters. Generally we don't help carry out unless the stock guy's backed up but we're basically there for one purpose. It's to stay at the front of the store and to watch for under aged purchasing or false identification issues. That's what we've done to the best of our ability but to thls day I can't stand before you and tell you that I'm full proof elther. There may have been nights I've been on duty there and someone may have slipped through that I thought was old enough too. Unfortunately it does occur. I don't see it as a problem right now and I think spot checking certainly is a way of keeplng the lndustry on lt's toes. I don't say that that's wrong. It's just again a world of reality. It does happen unfortunately. Councilman Wing: I think the Council's kind of called a red alert here and I'm just saying, might we be able to call off the red alert a little bit? You're not seelng a blg flag waving? Larry King: No. In the 12 years I've worked here, I never received any information that anybody was intentionally selllng under age in the clty. We did have some other problems with on sale locations and we dealt with those dlrectly but never wlth any of the off sell. Councilman Wing: I think really what you're saying is the intent is just not to sell to an under aged individual. That's really not the lntent of the store. Just to make another whatever it is for whatever they're buying. But we're so strong lnto the standpoint of our drug task force withln the clty and all these things all tie in together and somehow if we can keep kids out of this town from Council Meeting _ April 8, 199[ bu>,ing, that's what we really have to do. That's the main intent of the Council ~:'; we].3. We're not here to public~lly ridicule. That's not the intent. But we cio want to ~ee that the checks are made on anyone that looks anywhere close or ~hose tha~ you have question o~' sometimes you think maybe they're old but yet maybe they should be checked. I think that's a very important thing for us to h,'.~v~~. within the City of chanhassen. Not just an easy spot to stop and pick it up because that was indicated from the individual who said, I can go anywhere and buy and I'm under age. And he said okay, let's see. Show me and they did. And this wasn't thru. onty place. This wasn't the only town. It was all over. L_~rry l(i. ng: This has occurred in the past. In the 6 years, I've worked there 9 years and the 6 years I've been responsible for the scheduling, personally I've made dozens of arrests Jn the store fei- people wi(h either false identification or- for already purchasing and so from an enforcement standpoint ue do take a very ~ggres$ive stand. Mr. Larson's also been very firm about anybody that's belJigerent or even wi. th a bad attitude in the store and we've asked those poopJ,e to step out even tl~ough they're of age. The issue has been one of being obnoxious or whatever to a clerk so from his standpoint he's very conservative on the entire issue. Mhether it's under age consumption or any type of behavior that relates to alcohol of' abusive substances. We have dozens of arrest reports documented. I don't think we'd have the time tonight to go through all the statistics but personally I've arrested dozens and I know the other 8 officers that have worked there, they've also been involved in the similar- type of arrests. Mayor Chm.1. el: Thsnk you. Anyone else'? Cou~cilman Mason: Just in general, I was one of the people that did some rambling about 'th~s 2 weeks ago and ~ do appreciate the fact that it's, I was just ~alkin9 with a friend of mine who used to bartend and he was telling me how difficult it is with that issue of knowing where the line is. I appreciate the ~c~. f. hat you folks came in and talked about it. I think it's clear you guys are trying to do what you can do. I recognize it's a very difficuJt problem and I appreciate you coming in tonight. Reinforcing what I've kind of felt about your organization anyway. So thanks. Mayor chmiel: One other point I'd like to bring up is, I would like to see Brook's Food Market, being they're not here this evening, Z want to see them at our next Council meeting. Councilman Workman: I guess I hadn't heard it explained the way Rich explained it and myself being I think the youngest person on the Council. Up until not that ).ong ago I was getting, if I went into a place where they didn't know me, they would card me. Councilwoman Oimler: Right fully so. Mayor Chmiel: You've gel a baby face is what she's saying. Councilman Workman: Yeah, I have the Larry King look. But you know, it's cute and it's fun arid you know when I'm really old llke 45 I'll really appreciate that but when I'm 25 and I'm 26 now it's not so cute anymore that I'm getting c;trded and you want to get a little respect you know. Z'm going to be 32 this City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 year and I still get the feeling if I go into a store where they don't know me that they're going to ask me. And you know, I can remember after a hot summer day after going into a store like that and somebody much younger than myself telling me or presenting to me, I want to see your ID. I didn't start a fist fight but it was like you know, I'm getting a little tired of this and you get your eyre up a little bit. $o I never really had it explained to me but I did have it explained to me like this, because I asked the person. I said why are you carding me? Do I look like I'm 187 They said it's not that you look like you're 18 if you're 28. It's that there's a lot of 18 year olds that look like they're 28. And so then I felt good and they got me the beck out of the store. But I mean, because it did become a point with me because it was just happening all too often. Did I go in with that dumb look on my face or whatever. What's the problem? Am I looking her in the eye or something? But I do want to reinforce the Brook's thing. I think we've had some cigarette sales problems there also. Maybe there's some leadership problems down there. I don't know what kind of action we can take to, May 1st is the effective date of the liquor licenses probably but I would be all for strong demands, if in fact they're not taking the Council serious in this matter. I do appreciate the gentlemen that have come in and helped us to rectify the problem. Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else wishing to address this? This is a public hearing as I mentioned. If hearing none, I'd like a motion to close the public hearing. Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. Mayor Chmiel: Any further discussions? Councilman Wing: I would move not approving the Brook's Superette license pending their appearance before the City Council prior to May 1st. Mayor Chmiel: With the approval of the MGM and Holiday? Councilman Wing: Yes. Approval of MGM and Holiday. Don Ashworth: This, if I may Mr. Mayor. Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Don Ashworth: Following our last meeting I felt that the Council's intent was to try to discuss with each of the owners and so this was not established as a hearlng under which you would deny a particular application. It was my bellef that if ue ended up not having a response from the owners, you would still have a 2 week period of tlme to our next meetlng, to send a formal notice and at the end of, or I should say at our next meetlng if Brook's at that time would decide not to attend agaln, you'd be in a posltlon to deny that application but it should not occur this evening. Councilman Wing: That covers the intent of my motion. I withdraw that motion then accordingly. Hayor Chmiel: Okay. Anyone second that motion? C~ty Council Meeting - hpril 8, 1991 Councilmar, Workman: I second that non motion. Mayor Chmiel: Alright. I guess all we have to do is move right along. Is that right Roger? Roger Knutson: Yeah. Just vote on the motion. Councilwoman Oimler: I'd just like to say without a motion here, just a couple comments and I know now that the two applicants that did come in and they have really explained their procedures and Z thlnk they are doing a good job and this wa.,_: just an lsolated incident but I do thlnk that because Brook's chose to ignore it, I do think maybe it is in order because I remember when I made the motion originally. We didn't even know if it was supposed to be a public hearlng or not but we did refer to legal counsel at that point and Roger recommended [hat we have a publlc hearlng. But it was my understanding at that point in your memo Don that we could at that time deny or do revocation of a license even. So I do thlnk a motlon ls in order. Mayor Chmiel: Can I address that just a little? The existing license is still operating. We have not pulled that. Councilwoman Oimler~ That's correct. Mayor Chmiel: And what you're saying is if '[hey are not here by the next Council meeting that we the~ have that opportunity to withdraw that license from Brook's? Cott~ci].woman Dimler; Well it was my understanding that, the motion that I made was to pass them all except the three that we were golng to. Mayor Chmiel: And we did that last week. Or 2 weeks ago. Councilwoman gimlet: Yes. So Brook's right now is not on the list to be, you know it was not passed with the consent agenda. And it was my understanding now tha( we have [o make a motion that we will approve Holiday and MGM but because Brook's dldn't appear, that we wouldn't. Councilman Wing: Which is still actually just pending. Mayor Chmiel: Yes. But we're still giving them that opportunity to be present a( our next council meeting prior to the Hay i deadline? Councilwoman Dimler: Oh sure. Absolutely. Yes. Councilman Wing: With a letter I understand being sent? Mayor Chmiel: That's correct. A letter will be sent requesting that they be present at that meeting. Councilwoman $imler: I want to make absolutely sure that we did, that we were going to move MGM and 14oliday now because I don't think they were included. Mayor Chmiel: We did move that already. 10 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Councilwoman Dimler: No, I think ue withdrew those three. Last time I'm talking about. I want to make sure that they are now on. Mayor Chmiel: That's correct. Councilwoman Oimler: But Brook's again is still on hold until they appear before us. Mayor Chmiel: I ~ould say that that motion is correct. Don Ashworth: Perhaps staff misunderstood the intent. It was our belief. It takes the State 30-45 days to complete the licensing process so we initiate a process here. The Council ends up approving a letter that would go to the State. The licenses then come back to the City before they're actually given to each of the owners. It was our assumption that you were allowing the processing to continue. In other words, for staff to submit the entire list to the State but with the understanding that ue would meet with the three owners. We looked at the first meeting, this one as an informal one in which we'd try to get input from the owners and assuming ue received cooperation, that the Council would again allow those licenses to be issued. What I'm hearing the Council say is that you do want to look at a potential revocation associated with Brook's. We will now send Brook's a formal letter stating that since they did not attend the informal session, that they need to be here 2 weeks from today as the Council will consider on that evening formally revocating their license. Mayor Chmiel: Either approving or revocating. Don Ashworth: Right. Do you agree Roger? Roger Knutson: Technically what you're doing is you're not approving a new license for next year. Not revoking their current license. 3ust not giving them a license for next year. Mayor Chmiel: That's correct. Now that there's clarification, I think a motion is in order. Don Ashuorth: I was also going to say, I see Brook's as a company store. Potentially they simply haven't received this letter. Mayor Chmiel: The manager has jurisdiction over that store and should have been here. Don Ashworth: I agree. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I would like that as a motion. Someone make the motion? Councilman Wing: That would be the motion to approve MGM and Holiday? Mayor Chmiel: Right. Councilman Wing: And we're really putting on hold Brook's Superette prior to their appearing before the Council prior to May lst? ll City Council Mee. tin9 .- Apl-il 8, J.991 Mayor Chmiel: Right. Councilman Workman: Second. Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the 1991/92 liquor licenses for HGH Liquor Warehouse and Holiday. Brook's Superette uill be put on hold subject to appearing before the City Council prior to Nay 1, 1991. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. APPROVE CONTRACT AHENDNENT ~I..FOR HNTB, AUDUBON ROAD SOUTH, PROJECT 89-18. Char].es Folch: Mr. Mayol', members of the Council, this item was presented before you at the last Clty Counc11 meetlng and was tabled pendlng further J. nfo~ma[ioll and a better explanation for this contract amendment and a description of the remaining work to be completed. At my request the project consultant engineer, Chet Harrison has provided two letters which are included in your packets. The flrst letter describes, further describes the need for these additional s~rvices and differentiates which portion of this contract amendment has actually been performed in 1989 and what portlon ls for remaining work to be completed this year. The other letter further spells out exactly the remaining work on the project to be completed and the associated engineering services. Chet is here tonight to address any questions that, further questions that you may have on thls matter. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, let me just ask one specific question. I tried to see you today but I missed you. The additional 75 hours. We go to another second billing dated February lgth and under the Construction Engineering Servlces cost to date. Estimated, project manager was 240 hours. We spent 205. The estimate to complete is &O for a total of that 265 hours. Now if we had the estimate at 240, we only spent 205, shouldrl't we have 35 hours plus that we should have credit for taking that off to the 609 Maybe you can address that? I was just doing a 11ttle slmple arlthmatic there and I was just. charJ, es Folch: Maybe Chet would be better familiar to answer that question. Chet Harrison: Z hope Z can and I apologize for not being at the last Councll meeting. Z stated so in my letter that I submitted to you and I do apologize for that because T like to be here to answer these kinds of questions when they come up originally. What we did in the column of spent hours is actually what ue have bllled. So we have not bllled you for 240. We have bllled you for 205 so whatt I'm saylng is that to complete I need 60 and in fact I'm asking for an ,-~dditlonal 2.5 hours [o get the project completed over what it was originally estimated. Does that answer your question? Hayor Chmiel: Okay. Estimated and completed. You're looking at 60 hours additional? Chet Harrison: Right. Zt's actually 25 addition hours from the original estimate but we haven't spent, we haven't billed you for 240. We've billed you for 205. Mayor Chmiel: Alright. Very good. Now some of the other ~hings that I was looking. For the existing survey of what was done on the road, wasn't all of 12 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 that done at that specific time? With the first coat going down and the survey being taken completely with the road? Do you understand my question? Chet Harrison: I'm not sure. We did do a complete survey of the roadway initially during the initial construction period of time and I can tell you that Mr. Warren and myself. See I dldn't wlnd up being in charge of this project until about September and if you'll notice one of the letters that you have here ls from Mr. Erlksen, my predecessor on this project. I reallzed early on when I took responsibility for the project that we had grossly under estimated the amount of time that it was golng to take to survey and I found out slnce then what happened is, as I stated in this last letter, that we did not really put costs in there for construction staklng whlch ls basically monumentlng the work we did out there. What we dld put in there was the dollars we assumed initially just to put controls in so we could do that survey work. So Mr. Warren and I were aware of that. I guess the reason that that procedure that we set up through a letter from Mr. Warren stated that when you get near the contract amount submit additional costs, if there are some. When you get towards the end of the project whlch I did do last fall when I saw that we were golng to exceed. And I came up with about the $53,000.00 that we've spent to date on the project, not a11owlng for any new dollars for this coming sprlng. As it turns out, the project not belng completed, we need additional dollars for that. That's what you're seeing in that additional $12,000.00. I probably st111 didn't answer the question you asked me but. Mayor Chmiel: No. Chet Harrison: Maybe you can help clarify it for me a 11ttle blt. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. My position was is that originally when the road went in it was surveyed. We knew exactly where it was golng to be and what the wldth of that road was also going to be. And I look at this to seeing as there is a duplication as far as survey ls required. The road ls existing. It's there now with the first mat on and waiting for the second one to come down. I guess that is what I was trying to get at. Was whether or not that survey was really needed but I think what you're saying is that the survey was done at the time prior to your taking this on. Is that what you're saying? Chet Harrison: No I'm not. Let me clarify what the surveying processes are and maybe that wlll help clarlfy things. We initially go out there and survey the entire road, which we did under design. Which is a $39,000.00 fee or somewhere in that range. In that we dld a complete survey of the road identifying everything that exists. In construction what we do is we go out and we stake physically what's golng to be rebuilt. In this particular case the northern one-half, or approximately one-half of the roadway was totally reconstructed wlth curb and gutter. That requires individual stakes for the contractor to go off of to do that so there's construction staking that's done just for construction. The southern half of the road, it was more intermittent and places where we did sloping 11ke in front of the Baranski's property. The Bongard's property. The Whlte's and so on down the road. Individual yards were looked at. Special surveying was done for those and that's where the construction surveying comes in over the original design survey. Does that, am' I getting? 13 Cft. y Council Meetil~g-. ,qp~'.il ,'t, 1?91 Mayor Chmiel: Ye~:. Now I understand what you're saying. Che~. Ha'rrison: And a'.; t,!.?, not~.~d her,~., we have about another 80 hours which is one week's worth of time of a survey crew. Two people to complete any surveying th,'~i, must bo don~; to b~sic~J, ly put together the recoYd drawings ~nd survey thil~.,.', to make sure they were put in correctly. That's what the remaining hours are for. Mayor Chm~el: Okay. Thank you. ~nyone else? Any addit$onal questions? Co~nc$~uoman Oimler: I guess somebody can answer this for me. What Ss the normal procedure when an estimate comes ~n low? ~re we responsib~e or do we make them st~ck ~o ~hat estimate? hre we respons£ble to make up the d~fference? Don Ashuorth'- It ali. depends on the contract. ~s I understand this one, if the hours were ~ess, you would be bL~ling us at those lower hours. Chet Harrison: Yeah. I guess the best way to explain it is that for design we did what we call ,a lump sum cost. We said we will do the design for around $40 .~ 000. 00 but construction ls always an unknown and what we do is we slt down be¢or:.?, construction starts and say here's what we think has to be done. We meet wlth Hr. Warren or whoever the City Engineer ls and say thls ls what we thlnk .i.t':; going ~o take to cio tile job and it's z~n estimate only. This is a very typical process because of 'the unknowns ulth construction. You can get 1nfo things you dom~'~ know about. For example, we wound up addlng a storm sewer to 1. his project that we initially uere golng to just run the water off the road out 1hie a cornfield and we declded we don't have an easement to do that. We'd h..et'ter add a storm sewer. Those are those unknown thlngs that come up durlng construction. That's why a lot of times design is a lump sum cost because we have our parameters and there was extra work done in deslgn but you pald us on ,'.~n extra fee. I did al1 the easement documents for yo~ to help Hr. Warren in ge'i:tJl~g that part of it done. That was an additional fee outside the project. might add that, if you Zook at the total cost of all the engineering that was done for this project and take out those dollars spent for speclal additional things that we did, we did the project for construction and deslgn for about and to me that's low to moderate price. If you look at that. We dld do those additional services and that raised it up closer to 20% total fee but those were fees that would typically be held outslde of a deslgn cost, and belleve me, your contract with us ls very well defined as to what our role is. What we're going to do for those fees and there's no loose ends. That's when we come Jn and say ok~y, you uant us to do ~.;xtra work, that's how it's set up and that's negotiated on those special fees. Now most of the special extra work we dld uae on an hourly basis with a not to exceed figure. But again, it wasn't design, I mean thls was design. It was not construction. Construction ls typically left open but yet you tell if things are going to look 11ke it's going to go over and Hr. Warren and I did do that durlng the process. Councilwoman Dimler-' Thank you. Mayor Chmie].: Any other. Hearing none, would someone like to make a motion to accept and approve the contract amendment. Any discussions? I think Z understand what has really happened here and. 14 City Council Heeting - April B, 1991 Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, I'll so move approval of Contract Amendment ~1 for Audubon Road South, Project 8~-18. Hayor Chmiel: Okay, I'll second that. Any discussion? Councilwoman Dimler: I want to thank Mr. Harrison for coming in and explaining that so well to us. Councilman Wing: Then I guess I would like to thank the Mayor for asking the question because there's...that I don't fully understand. Resolution ~91-28: Councilman Wing moved, Mayor Chmiel seconded to approve Contract Amendment ~1 with HNTB for the Audubon Road Improvement Project 89-18. establishing a revised ceiling of $&5,&O0.O0. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. AMENDMENT TO SITE PLAN APPROVAL, SIGNAGE FOR THE CHANHASSEN HEDICAL ARTS BUILDING, 470 WEST ?STH STREET, ROBERT COPELAND. Paul Krauss: This is the second time in the past year I suppose that you've had some overview of signage on this building. Last year there was a clarification on how many tenant slgns were to be allowed and it was, as ! recall, 5 per side. There was also a monument sign that had been approved with the original proposal but not yet built. A few months ago the applicant came to us with a proposal to enlarge that monument sign such that it could accommodate another tenant space. Also there was a minor change, an increase in size in a directory sign around the back of the building. As staff ue had some concerns about this for several reasons. We belleved it vlolated the orlglnal lntent of the plan that had been approved. We also had a concern that monument signage really should be building oriented or slte orlented and not have tenant spaces. We took that concern to the Planning Commission. They echoed some of our sentiments and recommended denial of the original plan. The Plannlng Commission though did outllne some suggestions for a compromise and it wasn't really well developed at the Planning Commission meetlng but the compromise was something along the lines that the monument sign would remain in it's current size without any tenant signage and that there would be additional slgnage bands placed on the bulldlng to accommodate 1 or 2 additional tenants. I since had an opportunity to sit down with the applicants along with the Clty Manager to discuss that compromise further and the plan that you have tonight is an outgrowth of that. Basically what it proposes to do is to exchange the mlddle slgn band that has that temporary, I think lt's Chanhassen Dental with a telephone number on it for 3 tenant sign bands. The differences in these sign bands ls that they would go from 2 feet to 4 feet in height and under covenants that have been provided, they would allow logos and color. All the rest of the signage on the bulldlng would be required to be white. The one exception is the Goldstar Mortgage sign which is obviously already gold but the covenants that have been drafted would require that that be changed to white face consistent with the rest of the bullding as soon as that tenant changes and that's fairly common practlce when you adopt covenants. There's a lot of money spent on these things and as long as you achleve over tlme what you're trying to, that's pretty common. Staff indicated that we were fairly comfortable with the concept. We proposed some changes to the covenants themselves. We belleve that there should be a prohibition against the trailer mounted temporary signs and signs in the 15 u[ndo,~. The applicant did ask if the covenants could allow temporary leasing si.~ns. We thought tl~at ua:s reasonable. I'm ~ure that klnd of a compromise can easJ. ly be worked out. Before ~riting thi~ up for the Clty councll however, we had o~r Planning Commission meeting last we~k and I informally ran this compromised p~'oposal ~n front of them. They agreed that the concept was one tha~ they supported but they had some different opinions about the colored sJ. gnage and the use of larger sign panels ~n the mlddle than had been previously u:-~ed on the building. They did not have an opportunity to take an official ~.osi~.on~ It was not an officlal action item for them. ~hat we've done is w~'ve written thls up for the City Cow,c11 basically with two alternative opt.ions For you to consider. One would be approval of the sign package as proposed with a couple of modifications to the covenants raised by staff. The other would b,~s~cally, yo~.~'d give your feedback to the Plannlng Commission and haw thi~ sent back to them fo~' a detailed review and possibly approval. It's possible that the Plat, nj. rig ~ommlsslon could be authorized to finally approve thi~ or they could come back through the process again for your final approval. At this point I'm flndlng it rather difficult to glve you detailed recommendations on what to propose. ~e're working outside of the sign ordinance ~)l~ thJ. s one. Thls was a co,dj, ilo, [hat was attached to the site plan approval so it's really thaf, thing that takes precedence and not the sign ordinance whlch has obvlo~s problems that we've all talked about numerous times. Personally ~ hav~ some rCreferences with that but that's what they devolve into. I mean Jt's~ tough to make a professional judgment on what looks good, ~hat doesn't look good and ! would reaJ. ly rather defer those kinds of determinations up to you or over to the Plan,lng Commission or both of you. Planning ~udgments are not oft~sn times subjective. I like to think that there's some professional judgment behind ~hem and Lhis ls gettlng 1,to an area where lt's a 11ttle more dlfflcuit to make ~hat so basically I'd like to defer ~his subjective analysis... I'm carrying forward the concerns of the Planning Commission but at this polnt those are unofficial and I don'f, have Minutes of that meeting. I c~n just relate wh~t t~as spoken, With that I'1]. turn it back over to you Mr. Mayor. Hayo~' Chmie],: Okay Pa~zl. Thank you. Any discussion from Council? Councilman Mason: Why the need to, the ,~iddle I believe it's $ignage area C. The one in the'middle that is proposed that loges will be allowed. Why does that have ~o go from 2 to ~ feet? Paul Krauss: t guess Councilman Mason I'd like to defer that to the applicant, I)ob f;ope]and who's here tonlght. Bob Copeland: I'm Bob Copeland. I'm one of the owners of the building and your question was, why the need for the extra helght there? If you can see on the drawing here, what we have currently approved is a sign panel that's about 2 feet high which allows one 11ne of letters only. And we want to have the ab.i. 11ty to have two lines of letters. In other words, chanhassen Oental for examp.le would be chanhassen over the word Dental. And then this also allows for va'flows ].egos whicl~ won't fit on a 2. foot high slgn. Councilman Wi. rig: But if we were to pick on American Fatally, their envelopes h~ve that logo in ~ one inch size and I could recognize it easily. So now expand that envelope out to 2 feet and that's not a small logo. I don't care, I don't t~nderstand what you're sayi~g here, City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Bob Copeland: Well, let me try it again. We've got, this is a drawing of the existing situation. This is the area that we're talking about. The center. Currently there lsa 2 foot hlgh by 24 feet wlde sign panel that we can put a slgn within. That allows for one row of letters. Councilman Wing: Or two rows of letters at half the size. Bob Copeland: Well, practically the letters would be too small to make it worth whlle. So the ldeals that, plus most logos would not flt. Councilman Mason: You can make a logo fit any size you want it to. I mean I thlnk Dick's polnt is well taken. I mean there are logos an 1rich high. I mean I see your point about visibility. Oon't get me wrong there but I don't think you can state that a logo won't flt on that. Bob Copeland: Well, it depends on the logo. And what we want to do is have some flexibility here and so we aren't going to use any more than required. We want the ability to have three tenant names here and their logos and have two 11nes, if necessary, if that tenant's name and logo requlres lt. We're st111 way under the 15~ allowed. We were at, with the previous situation we were at 11ke 2g~ and we go up to about 53~ of the allowed. So even if we filled up the whole 4 feet by 58 feet, whlch we aren't going to fill it a11. Even if we did f111 it all up, we would st111 be less than 60~ of the allowed 50~ of the wall area. Mayor Chmiel: Bob, what is the distance between your upper story windows and your lower story windows? Bob Copeland: I don't know what it is right off hand but it's approximately, there's a little panel above the lower windows and from the top of that panel to the bottom of thls wlndow ls approximately 6 feet. Councilman Mason: It says it's 10 inches on either side of the 4 foot sign so what ls Mayor Chmiel: With what you're showing there, are you showing that according to scale? Bob Copeland: This is scale. What we have found is that, when we started the project that a couple things turned out to be a little different than we had in mind. One of them ls that our average tenant is smaller than we had anticipated so we have more tenants. And secondly, due to the marketplace or whatever, these tenants are more interested in slgnage than we had anticipated. I thlnk that it's...tenants want slgns. And in order to get tenants in the building, we need more slgnage. That's all there ls to lt. And we thlnk that thls center area is available and this was something that the Planning Commission suggested informally that we look at using to accommodate the needs of the tenants. Mayor Chmiel: Paul, in one part of the memo that we have here, it indicated that they objected to the increased slze from 2 to 4 feet wlde of the middle sign panels. The Commission. 17 City Council Meeting .. April 8, 1991 Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, that's accurate but that's a reflection of comments that they were making which were all over the board and that's my interpretation of what they were saying. There was no official action on that. Mayor Chmiel: Alright. Councilwoman Oimler: I had a question of Bob, Mr. Mayor? Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Councilwoman Oimler: Bob, would you tell me how many more possible tenants you could have that would want a sign? How much space you have available? Bob Copeland: Well, right now today there are two spaces vacant. So if each of those two tenants wanted signage, then we would have 3 here. We would have Chanhassen Bental. They're already in but don't have a permanent slgn. Then we would have one sign for each of the two remaining tenants. Councilwoman Dimler: And they'd all be in the mlddle sectlon there? Bob Copeland: Those three would be in that middle section. Councilwoman Dimler: Then you would be filled to capacity? Bob Copeland: Then we'd be 100~ full. Mayor Chmiel: With those three you wouldn't have any other vacancies? Bob Copeland: True. Cottncilman Mason: There'd never be more than three logos up there at one tlme? Bob Copeland: Not if you adopt what is ill the sign covenants. Councilwoman Dimler: I have a questlon on the back of the building too. Are you asking for the same thing on the back? Bob Copeland: We're not asklng for any change on the back of the buildlng with the exception of, Z thlnk our directory sign that we submitted is 6 inches higher than what was previously approved and Z don't know, Z don't want to speak for Paul but Z think they're uilllng to say that's fine. Paul Krauss: Yes, that was supported by the Planning Commission. Councilman Mason: I guess I would hate, we have this staff recommendation A that we can go ahead and approve it or I'd just as soon thls went back to the Planning Commission I think. I have some feelings about it but I think they've been behlnd thls the whole way and I thlnk they should have some more lnput on it. Councilman Wing: Mayor, could I attempt a new guy motion because I've been sltting through the Planning Commission meetings and with due respect to Mr. Copeland, his rights and the buslness rights and the Clty's rlghts, I'd 11ke to 18 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 move recommendation of B which would allow, which would approve their revised signage but return it to the Planning Commission. But I ~ould like to add to that. That the Council make special note that that was a landmark gateway building. The bullding has a very narrow street setback.. Somewhat negating hlgh visibility needs and the Councll requests careful revlew of the 4 foot sign request prior to approval. And I'd be happy to move with whatever they decide at that time. Councilwoman Bimler: Just for clarification. Do you want it to come back to Council for final approval? Councilman Wing: In my own opinion, no. I think it's gone so far now, I think they could deal with it. They need direction. We're saying we are approving thls. The only debate ls carefully look at this bulldlng before you allow the 4 feet. That's a11. The only restriction might be that they didn't go along with the ~ foot. Mayor Chmiel: Well, can I just throw something in? I would like the Planning Commission to do this and I go along with staff recommendation B. I would still thlnk we should want to see what the finalized thought ls and have it come back to Council. Councilman Wing: Could I leave that motion intact then with my comments about the gateway building, ...narrow setback. Requesting a review of the ~ foot request and that their flnal flndings come to Counc117 Mayor Chmiel: Right. Councilwoman Oimler: I'll second that. Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and second. Any further discussion? Bon Ashworth: Mr. Mayor? Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Don Ashworth: Just a point of clarification. I know the timing is important for the applicant. I think that the process that Paul has laid out narrowly sets forth the slgnage package, etc.. Going back to the Planning Commission, staff would kind of see that as, so they would be working out the details. In your motion ls there a way in whlch that actlon could become I guess the rule you mlght say for this applicant and the notification back to Council simply be just that. More of a notification rather than agaln one more approval level. We're going to add about a month to this is what I'm afraid of. Bob Copeland: If your comments on our behalf, I appreciate that but we'd just as soon not have the Planning Commission have the final say. Even if it means a delay. Don Ashworth: Alright. 5o a month? Bob Copeland: It's not good but we don't want the Commission to have the final say. 19 City Council Meeting -- April 8, 1991 Mayor Chmiel: One of the additional things too and I like the other portion of it as well. To prohibit window and exterior ground mounted temporary signage. z think that too should probably be entailed with that particular motion. What I looked at was what Paul had in here to prohibit window and exterior ground mounted temporary signage. That would be filed and permanently recorded against the property. We don't need that but I think if ue had that. Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, two things. First in the interest of expediting this, if Mi'. Copeland is available, we'll roll this over to next week's Planning Commission meeting. I mean everybody's familiar with this. It's not that difficult to get it back on. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, why don't ue do that. Paul Krauss: The second thing is, besides the size of the sign, the other thing the Planning Commission talked about was the introduction of color in the middle here. If the City Council had any direction to the Planning Commission on your sense of that, that might also be useful. Councilman Wing: If we're approving the request and the request has color on this one. And Paul, this is in due respect to the sign ordinance which exists but maybe doesn't really exist yet so I don't think ue can draw those lines at this point. Councilwoman Dimler: My comments on logos. I think that they should be allowed because they do identify a business and we don't want to stop anyone from doing business in this town. As far as how big they have to be, I'm not sure if I agree with the 4 feet. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion? Would you accept that friendly amendment to prohibit window and exterior ground mounted temporary signage? Councilman Wing: Absolutely. Mayor Chmiel: Would the second, friendly amendment? Councilwoman Dimler: Uh-huh. Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion? Councilman Mason: Could I hear the motion just one more time? Mayor Chmiel: Sure. Councilman Wing: The motion is to take staff recommendation B with concern for the building's gateway position and appearance, it's narrow setback and a careful review of the 4 foot sign prior to approval. And ue added the friendly amendment to prohibit window and exterior ground mounted temporary signage. Councilman Mason: Thank you. Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to approve the revised signage concept for the Medical Arts Building as outlined in the attached 2O City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 documents with concern for the building's gateway position and appearance, it's narro# setback and a careful revie# of the 4 foot sign prior to approval. Also, subject to mod1fications of the covenants to prohibit window and exterior ground mounted temporary signage. All voted in favor with Councilman Workman abstaining and the motion carried. ACCEPT FEASIBILITY STUDY FOR IHPROVEHENTS TO WEST 79TH STRAIT EAST OF HIGHWAY 101; CALL PUBLIC HEARING, PRO3ECT 91-B. charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. In your packets you have a feasibility study report which is completed for improvements to 79th Street east of Great Plains 81vd.. The improvements include a bituminous overlay, concrete curb and gutter, which will improve the street's serviceability and extend it's life. The drainage improvements consistent with storm sewer. Street lighting and also landscaping along the north and south boulevard areas. The estimated total project cost is $75,353.00. And from an engineering standpoint the project is considered feasible. The project cost is proposed to be financed through special assessments to benefitting properties. Those benefitting properties are all of Lot 2 and portions of Lot I and 3 of the proposed Gateway First Addition. Now the method for the assessment is based on a front foot cost. For the street improvement that turns out to be $177.39 per front foot and the appropriate storm sewer benefit has been prorated between Lots 2 and 3 and the associated costs on that are $150.48 per front foot. So the total project cost assessments are as follows: Lot 1, $13,911.11; Lot 2, $39,822.44; and Lot 3, $21,619.45. At this time I request that the Council receive this feasibilty report and call a public hearing for the April 22nd City Council meeting. Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you. Anyone wishing to address that? Councilman Mason: Will there be someone here from Van Ooren-Hazard-Stallings that night? Charles Folch: I believe Scott Harri in fact was going to try and be here tonight but he will be there on the 22nd. Councilman Mason: People are going to laugh but I would like to know how come they always do these things and they don't run them back to back? There's always the blank paper. It's a mlnor issue. Mayor Chmiel: Half a tree. Councilman Mason: That's right. Every little bit. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Good. Can I have a motion? Councilman Mason: I'll make a motion to accept the feasibility study to improvements for West 79th Street, Project 91-8 and to call a public hearing. Councilwoman Dimler: Second. 21 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Resolution ~91-29: Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to accept the feasibility study for the proposed street and drainage improvements to West 79th Street, project 91-8, and that a public hearing on this feasibility study be called for the Apri! 22, 1991 City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. PRESENTATION OF THE EASTERN CARVER COUNTY TRANSPORTATION STUDY, ROGER GUSTAFSON, COUNTY ENGINEER AND LARRY DALLAM, HNTB. Paul Krauss: I'm sure you will recall that we've worked, Gary Warren before me and then myself with Gary, on the Eastern Carver County Transportation Study. It was a locally sponsored and directed effort to get a handle on our transportation needs, which obviously are a very rapidly growing part of the County. Zt was particularly needed too because Z think as we've seen from the past, the Metro Council projections for this area have never caught up with the area. It didn't only apply to population in households. It also applies to the transportation modeling effort to a large extent. In fact, development in the entire southwestern suburban area and suburban areas in general aren't reflected by the Metro Council's transportation modeling effort too well at all and they're in the process of doing a complete new origin and destination study. Why do people travel? Basically the modeling effort that we have now and Larry ca)) get into this a little bit more if need be, is based on everybody living in the suburbs and working in Minneapolis. Well that obviously doesn't work anymore. Travel behavior has changed quite a bit, except for the Hayor. Well we've basically adopted this study by way of the fact that it's incorporated into our Comprehensive Plan. We use this as the basis for our transportation section along with a report prepared by Southwest Metro Transit. There was a meeting held around Christmas time, an informational meeting that fell on a night that we had a Council meeting so none of us could be there and I had meant to schedule Roger and Larry to come to you directly and give you an overview of this study and respond to some of your questions. This was the first time we actually were able to do this. I understand Chaska had a meeting like this a month or two ago and it's a good opportunity for them to talk. I should also point out too that we not only used this information in our comprehensive plan, but we've used it to review two plats so far in terms of what our expectations should be for right-of-way requirements. We've also used it with the downtown transportation study for Strgar-Roscoe. They're using this in their, employing this in their modeling efforts so that it accurately reflects the area. With that I think Roger, did you want to give some introductory comments? Roger's wearing a suit and tie, so I guess he must think you're pretty important. Mayor Chmiel: I'm thoroughly impressed. Roger Gustafson: We asked Paui how ue should dress tonight. He said he wore a suit so ue came with sports coats. Thank you Mr. Mayor and members of the Council for taking some time on your agenda to converse with us about this ~tudy. Paul has done an excellent job giving you some preview of what ue want to talk to you tonight about. I guess I would like to just read the mission statement that was developed for this study as an introduction to it. That statement basically appI£es to ,ot only the study but I think to transportation in the future as we go forward in the County. The statement is cooperatively and collectively provide an adequate street and highway system to serve the projected population and employment growth in Carver County. With that mission 22 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 statement in place, I really do have to compliment the two disciplines, planning and engineering that worked on this study. In particular I want to thank the efforts of the communities that participated because they basically brought forth data that was really needed to develop traffic projections in the study. Now that data was actually pinpointing the population and employment was expected to be in the year 2010 in eastern Carver County. And from those numbers we developed projection growths as far as trafflc onto various corridors of a base system and again to recognize the types of improvements that would be necessary over that period of tlme. And those improvements in the study are identified both as capacity improvements and safety improvements. Capacity improvements are especially identified in the report to glve us a real look at where we think 2 lane corridors will have to be expanded to 4 lane corridors and where corridors will have to be bullt where none exlst today. Safety basically identifies those concerns that we have relative to shoulder widths, curves, speed 11mits, trafflc control such as stop signs or slgnals. Those types of things that need to be addressed as traffic increases in the county. One thing I really want to mentlon ls that we really look at completion of this study as being a sprlng board to several more decisions that are in front of us. Very important ones, the ones you're working through now that are inoluded in your comprehensive plans are very critical. I guess this study was initiated after conversation with all the administrators of the communitles...lnvolved to attempt to bring back consistency in our comprehensive plans. It was there when they were developed 15 years ago or so but in tlme everything beglns to change and we tried to overlay comprehensive plans of the County and the cities. We dldn't get a good view of what everyone was thlnking and it made it very difficult to do traffic planning because what the County looked at was a corrldor for the future, maybe wasn't consistent wlth one of the citles. And so it made it very difficult for us to look at a 10 year program whlch would lnclude bulldlng a roadway that was obviously not in the comprehensive plan of the communities that maybe would be impacted. It also was becoming more inconsistent as far as functional assignment to the corridors. We looked at several corridors that had functional classifications that from local up to collector up to mlnor arterial. That makes it very confusing as far as understanding what actually should be built. So we hope that we're moving closer to having consistency and I think after everyone works through thelr comprehensive plans, there will maybe be a few differences but I think the magnitude of those differences wlll be greatly decreased. Once that's accomplished of course we're going to have to look at some jurisdictional problems, potentially where some thlnk that a clty street should be a county road. Maybe a county road should be a trunk highway and maybe a trunk highway should be a clty street. Those types of thlngs need to be addressed. System designations. What should be a federal aid urban corridor. What should be a county state ald highway corridor. What should be MSAS. Movlng forward on this, cities that are involved...state initiated as far as revising their systems and requesting mileage be added and also changes taking place. It's unfortunate that you can't just stop time and get everything in place and then say start the clock again but we are running a complicated buslness where some of those things occur out of what we call ideal sequence. The other thing that Paul mentioned that ls in the future but also happening now ls the corridor preservation because of the definition of the function of these corridors, comes the need to preserve land as lt's belng developed. Or actually maybe constructing a first phase of what would be an ultimate roadway. Something as we're seelng happen on Powers Blvd. or CR 17 south of TH 5 which lt's 23 City Council Heeting- ApT'il 8, 1991 development is happening. We're seeing it begin to move towards 4 lane type of facility rather than a 2 lane and with the cooperation between the County and the city and the developers in that area over the last couple of years, we were able lo at least move some earth into place. Some soils into place for that eventual expansion of that road corridor. Then we have to look at of course funding strategies and actual improvements that will go forward. To accomplish that I am very hopeful that the Transportation Technical Committee that worked at putting together this first technical report will stay as an active body and will be able to furnish the cities and the counties with some valueable professional opinion as to each of these topics that I have mentioned. I guess a group that can really be of assistance to elected people that serve the eastern area of the County. With that I would like to introduce Larry Dallam. Larry Dallam is the Principle Transportation and Research Planner for the firm of Howard, Needles, Tammen and Bergendorf and that is the firm that has been preparing the Trunk Highway 212 Environmental Impact Statement. This study was made economically feasible because of that work on 212. It literally vas a refinement of the work that went into that Environmental Impact Statement as far as looking at traffic projections. Now Larry has 36 years of experience in the transportation field. 15 years in highway and bridge engineering and 21 years of transportation planning. Larry received his Doctorate in 1966 and during his years of civil engineering work has been a professor at the University of Missouri for 13 years and has served as the Director of Transportation Planning for the Twin Cities Metropolitan Council for 11 of those 36 years. He has several national publications and has served on many local and national technical committees so we were pleased to have someone of Larry's experience and knowledge be able to greatly assist the technical committee as ue asked questions and attempted to understand a very complex subject such as projecting traffic 20 years from nov based on what ue know about traffic today. And those numbers, as you'll understand when Larry talks to you, become very large reflecting the future employment tripling and future population doubling in that 20 year period of time. So with that I'd like to introduce Dr. Dallam. Larry Dallam: Thank you. Does the...if I stand over here? As both Paul and Roger mentioned, part of the impetus for this study came from the 212 EIS and some of the local impacts from the traffic forecasts of that exercise and also I think a lack of north/south continuity in the area and east/vest sort of depend upon TH 41 and TH 5, and to a minor extent 212. So that vas an impetus and also as Roger mentioned, the fact that you had inconsistency particularly in your Comp Plan about roadway designations. Take Pioneer Trail for example. Chaska has it as a minor arterial. Chanhassen as a collector and Carver County local street. And then Eden Prairie had it as something else. But the right-of-way requirements as well as speed limits and number of lanes and so forth, varies dramatically as you go from a local street. One would allow access to every driveway and the other would prohibit it so both in terms of mobility and in terms of access, there vas obviously an inconsistency that needed to be addressed. Lyman Boulevard was another example where Chaska and Carver County had it as a minor arterial and Chanhassen as a collector. I want to begin sort of with the demographic forecast because the accuracy of the traffic forecast is dependent upon the social economic input. How accurate that is. And this gives you the population of employment. In the study area, if you add up all the Hetro Council estimates of population in the eastern part of Carver County, about 35,000 people and that is expected to be 61,300 based on forecasts. Now as Paul mentioned, the Hetro Council has been hesitant to acknowledge the 24 City Council Heeting - April 8, 1991 rapidity of roads in the suburban fringe of the metropolitan area. Of course part of that... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Larry Oallam: ... For Chaska they had 9,300 and used 11,000. So the traffic volumes that result from our analysis would be higher than what's in the 212 EI$ by about 20% to 25~, depending on the roadway. In the 1990 census that estimate of almost 35,000 actually turned out in 1990 to be about 36,000 and the largest growth between 1989 and 1990 was in Chanhassen where you went to 11,700 instead of the i0,500. So about iO~ of the growth occurred between 1989 and 1990. Well almost all the growth occurred in Chanhassen but you had about a lOX growth just in that one year. Now what we did with the population was allocate it to traffic analysis zones so what we did was in the study area, we started out with the Hetropolitan Council's zones that are in the regional model of which in this area there were 13. 13 Hetropolitan Council zones. For the 212 ElS we subdivided those into 44 but for this study we put that 13 and made 113 and then because in the 212 ElS there was more concern, the emphasis was more on the regional system and the minor arterials, the major minor arter'iais like 41 and 5 and some of those. TH 7 but since we were interested down to the collector level so we needed to know the traffic that would be coming out of those to more places on the local system and this is where your staff played such a vital role. They came up with, for each of those zones, what the population of employment would be by the loading point from the center of the zone to each of those roadways. And knowing where the growth was likely to occur and what percentage of it would load onto Lake Lucy Road versus Pleasant View and so forth so that was critical and I think even though we started 3 years ago. I remember the meeting with Don was there negotiating that contract. A lot of the time was spent in coordination on the input which I am a firm believer in. I mean the more time you spend in the beginning, the better the results are at the end and you don't come back and say, well I don't like that and we should have spent more time where people have a tendency to rush to solve the problem before they really... So that was very helpful. Once we had done that, we determined what the base system would need to be to accommodate that proposed development and this graphic indicates that. Where the orange line, the wider is a metropolitan highway system. TH 7 and 212 and the red lines are minor arterials and the blue collectors. Now we've shown here a new TH 41 crossing at the Hinnesota River but that was not included in the model because that was after the year 2010. If it happens, it will happen at that point in time. But what was included was...so if you travel from western or southwestern Hinnesota, those opportunities to cross the river existed in the model. Krauss: If I could add to that point too. Here's where the coordination took place between the Comprehensive Plan and the model. In the lighter blue color is where you see the collector roads. The collector road plan in Chanhassen is what we developed for our comprehensive plan. For example there's 2 collector connections between Galpin and TH 41. There's the new frontage roads that are being proposed to be extended out parallel to TH 5. All those were figured into the model because of how ue were able to interrelate on this. Larry Oallam: Yes. So the network that we assigned the traffic to was not the existing network of what is anticipated in the future. I might just point out that, very qulckly in terms of classification. As you know the Metropolitan Z5 City Colir~cil Me:sling - April 8, 1991 Highway system, those roadways are intended to serve trips from out of state and region wide. Long trips... Whereas the minor arterials simply is from one city to another, a county level highway. There again the emphasis is on mobility. ...ar, d provide access to major development generators such as shopping centers, office and things like that... And then the collector as you step down is more from one neighborhood to another within the city. We have two types of collectors. One that emphasises mobility, that is movement of traffic and the other is access. So given this network, then we assign the socioeconomic forecast and we did two types of forecasts. We did what was called an all or nothing where you assume that this network is infinitely large to accommodate whatever travel might desire to use it. But we didn't take in the number of lanes or anything like that. So we just basically trips originated at Point A and they're going to Point B. What is the quickest, the short~st time path to get there? So therefore it represents the demand in my view. This would be the demand for travel, assuming that the system was capable of handling it. Nov I've circled some numbers. One of them which is kind of, might be a little disturbing is on lit 5 not far from this point, just east of Market Blvd.. This indicates a forecast of 66,000 whereas in 1988 it had around 9,000, in that ballpark. That's a 7 fold increase. On TH 101, 23,600. L/man Blvd., almost 20,000. TH 41 it gets up to around 19,000. 26,000 just south of TH 212. Even over west of Victoria there's around 16,000 whereas today there's in the ballpark of ?,300. So traffic volumes sort of throughout the area were doubling and trlpllng but that's because lt's presumed the population and employment are going to be doubling, tripling or more. So this would be, as I mentioned, the domand for travel. Then we did another forecast whlch we call a capacity restraint. That is we restrain the system that we have in there. The characteristics of the road. The number of lanes. Speed and so forth. So when tile first...in the model puts 66,000 on TH 5 and looks at lt's ability to handle it, we assumed it be 4 lanes at this polnt in the future. It says well it can't handle it so then it looks for alternate paths so it's diverted from TH 5 to someplace else. Zntegratlng untll you reach equilibrium. So that 66,000 ends uI) at 51,600 but it still may no[ be the best level of service but then other roads have deteriorated or have gathered the trafflc so it's spread out you might say. So like on TH 41, it went from almost 26,000 down to a little less than 16,000 because there's no way 2 lanes can handle 26,000. So the way I look a~ it, we kind of have all upper and a lover bound so we have the demand for traffic that's up here and then here's lt's ablllty. What it tells you ls that if you make the improvements that are recommended in this study, then the trafflc ls golng to tend more towards the all or nothlng because then lt's ability to handle it improves and the traffic, they have that sixth sense. When you put a lane on, even though you don't announce it in the paper, the word gets out. There they are. Now if we could focus maybe more on the city of Chanhassen. To go from more the global county vlew to clty. So here's 212. This is the southern part of the clty. So like on L/man Blvd. and Pioneer Tra11, I've circled some of these. Bluff Creek Blvd. You see these small numbers which are reasonable I think given the type of development and traffic that you would expect. Again as we look at what happens when we look at lt's capability of handling it, wlll that 400 on Bluff Creek go to 1,400 and the 4,000 on Pioneer Tra11 goes to 10,000. L/man goes from 1,400 to 9,400 and you can see that there are problems. So this becomes the basis for some of the recommendations that are made later on in the study. Then if we look at the northern half and again compare the all or nothing with the capacity restrained. l.lke Pleasant Vlew, 500. I mean thls is more of a residential collector and 26 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Like Pleasant View, 500. I mean this is more of a residential collector and Lake Lucy. That 500 becomes 1,900 so what it's saying is yOU have traffic you have today and you will have in the future traffic on the Lake Lucy Roads and the Pleasant Views don't belong there. My view is that, from the Planning point of vlew, the only trafflc that should be on this collector are those trips that either have business in the area served by that collector. Origins or destinations but trafflc that's going through should be on the minor arterials because they're roadways intended to serve them but not on what we call the Class II collector. That should only serve the local area. So what you'll get is people upset because there's too much traffic. Paul Krauss: Pleasant Vlew's an interesting case in polnt and we've confronted some of this with the Troendle Addition and questions as to whether or not we really needed that ? feet. Those kinds of things. Right now, today. Well as of last year I believe there were some counts taken just southwest of Christmas Lake on Pleasant View where that 2,300 is. Right over here. We counted up to l,O00 cars a day there right now. What you're seeing though is, the capacity restraint model is probably more accurate than the all or nothlng model for Pleasant View Road because (a), Pleasant View Road isn't really going to be improved in any substantive way but more importantly, TH 7 probably isn't either and that's the other east/west route through there and then if you don't want to take that east/west, you've got to drop all the way down into downtown Chanhassen and that's got obviously limitations. $o traffic is seeking the easlest and most expediate route to get from Polnt A to Point B. Unfortunately, in this instance, Pleasant View is it. There just is no alternative. And that's why we've been saylng in that particular case, no matter what we do to discourage it, unless you chop it off, people are going to want to get through and that we'll probably have to make at least some safety related Improvements to that. We don't want to encourage it to be a major thoroughfare but you still have to recognize that it's going to be used and people are going to be walking on it and things might have to be done. So that's one of the areas that this study ls belng used and...how thls ls brought to bear in planning issues that you've seen. Larry Oallam: Now the model does have the capability, if the City were interested, well where are these trips coming from? We. can do what is called a selective link. You can take one link out of the network and find out where they're coming from and where they're going...but I should point out as we say in the report, that the results, the volumes and so forth are, we think, an excellent tool for planning but not for design. You can't design an intersection based upon these because we don't have turnlng movements and all this stuff so it wasn't intended to go into that level. $o it doesn't get you off the hook for having to use another consultant to deslgn the intersections. So looking at the forecast and the base system. We've shown on this graphic flrst in the solid black 11ne all roadways that are committed to be constructed to 4 lanes. TH 5 is committed out to CR 17. 212 is committed, well certainly not all the way but there's st111 some questlon marks although we thlnk we've resolved those with the Metropolitan Council but basically that's committed. And our understanding is that TH 101 in Chanhassen ls committed. So that leaves what's needed is TH 41 upgraded to 4 lanes. TH 5 from CR 17 really all the way to Norwood/Young America...4 lanes installation. Certainly throughout the eastern part of Carver County. County Road 17 will need to be 4 lanes. Lyman Blvd. east of TH 41 and is thls Mlnnewashta? 27 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Paul Krauss: No. and that's a case in point to point out. I think that was, right now our Council is looking at an upgrade to Minneuashta and there were some questions about the volumes of traffic that were being projected I believe in the consultant's report that's working on the feasibility study there. And I wasn't terribly familiar with it Larry but I pointed out the fact that there aren't that many connections between TH 5 and TH 7 and you might, Roger might touch on, or Larry, that 13 connection as being someway of off loading some of the trips that might be using Minneuashta Boulevard. There just isn't a whole lot of alternatives and if there's no alternative, it seeks the easiest route and that happens to be Minneuashta Blvd. right now. But that's also why we needed this study because 13 is out beyond our corporate boundaries and ue don't have any direct control over it except through a process such as this. Roger Gustafson: I think the numbers on those north/south links between TH 5 and TH 7 probably reflect a need for TH 7 to have more capacity so it moves to more of an ail or nothing scenario on that corridor and that would then lessen the popularity in looking for an alternative for TH 7. We'll know more about that scenario when the new picture based on that '90 census...Metropolitan Council's forecast for the metropolitan area is developed over the next 2 years. When you get out around the fringe of the picture, ue cut to do this study. There are some limitations to the accuracy and what we're really looking at is what Larry says is magnitude. Planning to the west...2 lane or 4 lane type of facility corridor preservation. But we can't use these numbers to basically say the design for that corridor should be 7,500 vehicles a day because of what the study says. We know we're in a relative number there. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. That was one of the questions Paul and I had some discussions about that this afternoon. I looked at that Minneuashta Parkway which has met that count of about 9,600 and I look at that being a 30 mph speed interconnection between TH 5 and TH 7 as opposed to TH 41. Now there aren't too many people, if they're in the hurry to get going to where they're going, normally that 55 mph speed will grab those total numbers so I feel when I look at Minneuashta at 9,600, it seems like it's a higher number that shouldn't be in those totals because of some things that ue can do within that particular area. By putting in a stop sign to deter some of that movement within. Roger Gustafson: Mr. Mayor, that's one of the real important things to recognize wlth thls study ls that by puttlng in some constraints you can sort of make some community decisions as to what corridors are going to really be used by a majority of the people by really looklng at the all or nothlng...and frankly taking that constraint maybe a little further than what was assumed in the study and all of those statistics are available. I mean maybe in the study we projected an operating speed on that corridor of 35 and you want to create what you're talking about ulth a different atmosphere of about 25 with stops in and...what we hope to do when we run this forecast to actually see those numbers change but that's the dynamics of thls whole report. And that's where the maglc of this sort of computer- programming gets real applicable as you actually get lnto design... Larry Dallam: We also show on here the dotted 11ne, new two lane roads that will be necessary. And the preservation of the new TM 41 crossing, which I thlnk Chaska wlll put in their Comprehensive Plan as a pollcy. I mean it's in the Metropolitan Council's policy plan so it should be, and their plan has to be 28 City Council Heeting - April 8, 1991 consistent but ! think there may be the beginning of an aggressive attempt to officially map it like 212 because once you. do that then it qualifies for the... right-of-way acquisition... The other thing, aspect of the study that we looked at, oh! It might be, we decided to...what's needed in the future in terms of capacity improvements with what staffs have been able to somehow beg, borrow or steal from the area Councils in the last 10 years. Well these are the capacity improvements that have been made in the last 10 years in this part of the study area. What's needed in the future and what's needed in future total for eastern Carver County, not including HnDot's responsibilities, is $125 million which is...of which Chanhassen has estimated to be around $20 million. In terms of roadway improvements which is certainly good news at this time of the year. Then we look at Light Rail Transit and what opportunities that whole discussion might provide. First of all, is there a need for it? Well, not witin the next 20 years but post 2010 I guess whether there's a need or not, we recommended to the Carver County Board that were the opportunity to acquire an abandoned railroad came about, we said it would be good public policy for the County to acquire it and use it for other public uses. Trails. Linear parks. What have you and preserve it in case it was ever needed for a transportation corridor in the future. Now I'm working at the moment on the Highway 12 from Wayzata to Delano project where 394 and 12 goes from 6 lanes to 2 lanes and one light. This brought to mind the old Lace Line was available at one time. DNR, to their credit, they grabbed it and they own it and there's no way it can be used for transportation... It's beautiful and the people love it but it was lost forever I guess, at least in the short term. Mayor Chmiel: Larry, what's the status of Chicago Northwestern? Is that still being considered for the LRT as you show here but at one time they were going to abandon that respective railroad. Larry Dallam: It's been acquired. Paul Krauss: Well if I can update that. First of all the tracks are being pulled out of there I think as we speak. I haven't been down there but that's what I've heard. Mayor Chmiel: Really? Paul Krauss: Yeah. Todd Hoffman contacted Hennepin County Railroad Authority today and I believe they've either acqulred or in the process of acquiring it and I believe Todd ls contending to set up meetings in conjunction with Eden Prairie and Chaska on the possibility of creating that into a trail corridor. Mayor Chmiel: Roger? Roger Gustafson: It has been acquired by the County and MnOot is scheduling the removal of the narrow bridge on TH 101 for this year. And they asked the County for supporting that action a number of months ago. So I'm very hopeful that that will stay on schedule. Larry Dallam: We're recommending that their acquisition goes, I believe to Chun. Roger Gustafson: No, just west of 212. On the east end of Chaska. City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Councilman Workman: It goes to the sugar factory doesn't it? Roger Gustafson: Just east of well, Gedney Pickle. Larry Dallam: What we're saying is that should then be taken all the way to the county border if the opportunity presents itself. Same way with the... If that opportunity comes about. Roger Gustafson: Is the Council aware that the $oo Line Railway has been for sale and is in the process of changing hands? I think there were 32 interested parties,..on the market and they're negotiating with one at the present time... acquire it and most of them needed trains as I understand it to carry coal. That's a spin off of what is desired in the downtown Minneapolis area as far as...necessitating Soo Line for looking at other options for bringing in the coal...changing atmosphere as far as who is using the railroad. Councilman Workman: Who's the one? Roger Gustafson: I understand it's...but I have heard 3 others...and I even had heard Minnesota Valley Transportation was interested. Councilman Workman: Yeah, hopefully we'll use this report to our benefit in the larger scope of 212 and LRT and everything else. :uickly on the LRT. I guess, and a lot of these comments are late in the game but it would sure seem like $oo Line would, as an LRT would serve Chanhassen much more than the one to the south. The one to the south kind of goes down to the bottom and picks up Chaska but that kind of by-passes us. Now I think it would be unbelieveable if ue had $oo Line with an LRT on it going right through dour where it does. I think ue could dress up that area very simply and easily and people could come out to the Dinner Theatre on it. Larry Oallam: They could have dinner on the way. Councilman Workman: Well there you go. Larry Dallam, your host for the evening. But dour on the bottom there, if you're going to remove that bridge, I'm excited as all get out about that but that just doesn't seem to serve our needs. I'm not sure how the political powers have been decided on that other than it came up for sale when it wasn't used. Paul Krauss: Yeah, I think a lot of things entered into it. First of all, I don't know how much they really looked at it given the fact that, I mean they're focusing on University Avenue and Hiawatha and when they're talking about a 3 phased program and this is after the third phase or beyond, I don't know how much attention they paid to it. Additionally, they already picked up or were in the process of picking up that southern corridor which made it easier. I mean it's the line of least resistence right now. It's something we'll monitor certainly. I don't expect anything to happen on this for quite a few years but we will keep involved with it and if anything does surface. You're right. It w111 serve downtown Chanhassen. One thlng should be polnted out too is that light rail, I had the fortune to work on some light rall projects a number of years ago. Llght tall doesn't work if you just count on, if lt's in town and you're walking to lt. One of the primary things is park and ride and coordination of buses and I don't knou what the answer ls from a reglonal 3O City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 context but if there was, I've heard talk about a large park and ride facility that might be down on 1~9/212. Now conceiveably, that's not as close as we'd like it to downtown but it may be centrally located to the Chaska/Chanhassen/ Shakopee. From a regional context that may make some sense. We will keep on top of it. Councilman Workman: Well and then also, this is another one of those Johnny come lately ideas but it sure would have seemed like down the center of the new 212 corridor or if something could be built in there as they're constructing. Increased cost obviously but while developing it, in the area or space, dead space down the center of 212 which is going to be a major corridor would have been, maybe it still can be, an idea that would be kind of a dual purpose yOU know. Roger Gustafson: You tell MnDot. Councilman Workman: Okay. He and Bill, we'll talk about it. But those are just some ideas that I think we should think about the Soo Line. If we can at all, get our political clout together and get that accomplished down the road when our kids are all on the Council. TH 101 on the north side. I'm going to bring that up because I don't know how well we're working with the study and how much we can bring in from Carver County in getting the State to once again claim it's road there or do whatever's got to be done and it looks like we're going to want to expand that to 4 lanes but, but. I don't know what the long range plans for that. Paul Krauss: Z don't know either. In fact, that issue's coming back to haunt us very soon. We have the second phase of the Kurver's Additlon coming in to the Plannlng Commission. It's supposed to be next week, and we keep gettlng these recommendations from MnOot that say basically let anything happen on TH 101 because they don't care and they don't thlnk they'll have any responsibility for it in the longer term. Maybe Roger can get at this a little bit. I recelved a call from the traffic engineering department of Hennepin County. Some folks I know over there and they had heard that that stretch of TH 101 may be turned back to Hennepin County. Now I'm not sure how far south that mlght go. If it might go into Chanhassen or not. Have you heard anything new on that Roger? Roger Gustafson: I haven't. I'd be very interested in learning about those types of conversations. What is now Hennepin County, they used to be TH 101 was done by the leglslature...not aware of any such b111. now belng considered by any committee. Why it didn't happen then ts frankly was an oversight because they dldn't recognize it as part of TH 101...so it was very awkward to have done it as part of that package... Paul Krauss: I read in a letter to Denny Hanson who's I guess sort of your counter part in transportation in Hennepin County and hopefully I'll get some more information back on that. But in any case, we are trying to preserve sufficient right-of-way with Kurver's Point to allow it to go 4 lane. But as is always the case on TH 101, we're shooting in the breeze because we don't have real good direction from HnOot as to what they'd like to see. This report helps us in that regard. 31 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Roger Gustafson: MnDot's hands are uell...tied as far as improvements on TH 101. As the Council may know, it's designated as a temporary highway so MnOot is really limiting it to safety improvements on that corridor...construction improvements. The only way they can do that is if it was legislated to be a trunk higbway...so it's very awkward for them to address capacity... Mayor Chmiel: Temporary can be there for a long time. Councilman Workman: Just a couple more comments. County Road 17 north of TH 5 in the projects is really loading up and would be projected to be a 4 lane hlghway. What klnd of coordination do we have ulth Shoreuood and Excelsior where it comes into TH ? there and what would be the long range plan? It would seem 11ke that would, flrst of all the Shoreuood. Shorewood, and I've been talking to a number of people over there, a totally unfriendly nature of law enforcement and what they're trying to do or protect through that corridor as it enters into Excelsior and we're going to have 17,000 cars driving up there and every one of them ls going to have a speeding ticket or whatever they're going to have. It seemed to me that we're going to have to coordinate some sort of effort. Are they golng to put a new intersection in up there? Some new ramps? Take out houses? I mean that's about all they can do. And I'll back up some of my comments wlth, and I'm in the buslness of lnsuring some automobiles and everybody that comes in, if they're got one ticket, if they've got at least one tlcket, they got it there. Got it in Shoreuood and that can't be helplng downtown Excelsior's retail. She's smlling back there because she got one probably. It can't be helplng Excel$ior's retail. There's a situation there that's really getting, and Vineland Road I think. People have to v£rtually lock their brakes up going down hills. Is that going to happen? Roger Gustafson: Mr. Hayor, Councilman Workman, I think you are beginning to deflne some of the tasks that 1ie before thls technical committee. We've sort of paused since this study was completed but frankly some of that sort of initiation ls startlng to take place now by belng sure that...Eden Pralrle. Shoreuood has come and make them aware of this study and what it looks like in our area. Converse wlth them as far as how much...with what they're looklng at in their area .... MnOot, Met Council types of activities to see if I guess a joint plan in our area could be expanded to be consistent ulth what's around us. That's a very valid... Councilman Workman: Well lt's the old. Roger' Gustafson: The same thlng is true with Lyman Blvd. extending into Eden Prairle. Councilman Workman: If you increase speed, you increase capacity maybe? Sort of? I don't know. Larry Dallam: Other way around. Councilman Workman: It's a frustrating situation and I'm doing my own analysis through there and talklng to some of the people up there. I have no speeding tickets. I never have had one. I would like the record to state. I think I've done that before. 32 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Councilwoman Dimler: Yes you have. Councilman Workman: Thank you. And then lastly, Pioneer Trail and Highway 101. The stop sign down there. It's very, very much needed because I stop there and it doesn't irritate me stopping there at a11. Is it long range to get something over there besides a stop slgn? Or what are we going to do wlth that? Roger Gustafson: MnOot in it's program continues to carry a dollar amount that may be available for improvement at that intersection. Sight distance, there would be enough for signals but eventually those kinds of things will have to be looked at. Councilman Workman: That's it. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Larry Oallam: Finally, I'll just call your attention to'the recommendations on page 2, most of which we've touched on but the staff has already...Comp Plan. Mayor Chmlel: I might add too. On some of that there's some specific, some under the summary of findings where it says there are several inconsistencies between existing city, county transportation plans. Those don't exist anymore. Those have been taken care of. We've relooked at that. Larry Dallam: Thank you very much. Councilwoman Oimler: I have a question. Mayor Chmiel: One quick question. Councilwoman Oimler: Could you tell me who was on that committee or who is on that committee? Oh, I see. Okay. Zs that same people going to stay on there? They're all agreeable to it? Roger Gustafson: Except for Gary Warren. Councilwoman Oimler: Okay. Are you gotng to replace btm with Paul? Mayor Chmlel: You may have two, maybe Chuck. Excuse me Charles. Okay. Thank you very much. Appreciate the ttme to come here and inform us as to what's happening. (Councilman Wing left the meeting during this item and was not present to vote on the remaining items.) TRUNK HIGHWAY 5 IHPROVEHENTS FROH COUNTY ROAD 17 TO TRUNK HIGH~AY 41. PRO3ECT 90-17: APPROVE 30INT POWERS AGREEHENT FOR PREPARATION OF CO~TRUCT~ON DOCUHENTS. Mayor Chmlel: This is something I think we had for a long time and Z think everybody is probably pretty familiar with this. Oon, do you have anything to add to that? 33 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Don Ashworth: Not really. Again, we have been working on this for the last 2 or 3 years and hopefully. We did have a minor setback in terms of we were short like $50,000.00 and through negotiations with the State, they have agreed to pick that amount up so that no longer is a cost associated with our Southwest group. The City and County's share is still in there but we have included that in the 1991 budget. Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion? Hearing none, I'll call for a motion to approve the joint powers agreement. Councilman Workman: We're on number 7, yes. I move approval of TH 5 improvements from CR 17 to TH 41, Project 90-17. Approve Joint Powers Agreement for preparation of construction documents. Councilman Mason: Second. Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the Joint Powers Agreement for preparation of construction documents for Trunk Highway 5 improvements from County Road 17 to Trunk Highway 41, Project 90-17. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. CONMUN~TY DEVELOPMENT BLOCK GRANT FUNDS, ALLOCATION FOR YEAR XVII. Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, as you're aware, at the last meeting you approved most of the projected schedule of allocations for Year XVII. There was one item that was withheld and that was the $5,000.00 allocation for maklng the old Village Hall handicapped accessible. There were a couple questions that were asked of us. One pertained to use of the buildlng and whether or not it actually was warranted. The other was a suggestion by Councilwoman Dlmler that we investigate making some of the Southwest Metro buses handicapped accessible. I contacted Dlane Harberts at Southwest Metro and she filled me in on a few different things. First of all you may have read in the newspaper in the last few weeks there's a federal mandate that all new buses and transports be fully handicapped accessible when these things are bought new. So Diane tells me that when our main line buses are replaced, and they wlll be ln, it's a relatively short period of time. Councilwoman Dimler: No. Over 12 years. That's why I asked for that. Paul Krauss: Is it 12 years? Councilwoman Dlmler: Yeah. And...are golng to be later than the rest. Paul Krauss: Well, one thing she did indicate though is when your contract is up for redraftlng, that you can lnslst on an accessible bus as part of the contract. But that comes in due course. The other aspect of it was the Morley Bus Company, dial-a-ride stuff. And Dlane sald a couple things. Flrst of all we are part of the Metro Mobllity Service area so we do have specific handicapped equipped...buses that do serve door to door for handicapped people and to her, to the best of her knowledge, she's not aware that there's an unmet need that exlsts. There's also a problem wlth Morley Bus Company in that they're a private firm and they schedule thelr buses for our use but they could use them elsewhere. There's also a question of cost too in that we're not sure 34 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 how much it costs to retrofit a bus. We think it's a fairly sizeable amount. It's easier to build it in from the outset. I also spoke to Larry Blackstad aho is our contact person at Hennepin County who helps us with our block grant and Larry told me that he believed that it was not a fundable activity. And that he also echoed the fact that it's going to happen in due course anyway and that this may be premature. Diane said it was a good idea but that we ought to step back next year and see what's materialized through it because it seems like a lot of things are turning that we're going to get it. We then looked at the old Village Hall and I did look up in the calendar for March and I believe there were 7 or 8 meetings scheduled in there for March. Now that's just what appeared in our checkout calendar book. Other people may have just borrowed it for the day and just come over to see if it was available. I don't know. We are extremely short of meeting space in the city and that room has some limitations. I think it would be used a whole lot more if some improvements were made to it. This year possibly making it handicapped accessible physically. I haven't talked to Todd about it but possibly in future years making the interior a little more desireable as a place to meet. I believe there was an incident too where somebody was handicapped tried to get into the building and had difficulty doing that. We've asked for a couple of estimates on what it would take from a design standpoint. I haven't seen that yet but we'll get that to you as quickly as possible. What I would recommend is you go ahead and authorize this expenditure and we will not be in a hurry to spend this. I mean we'll try to justify this to you when we get the numbers and design. If at that time you don't want to go ahead with this, I mean Larry would not like me to say this but you could decide to reallocate those funds. So you're kind of having your cake and eat it too. We'll make sure that we bring this back to you before any monies are expended and you can tell us what you want to do with it at that time. And again, we are recommending then that you approve this and that the resolution regarding all of Year XVII funding, we'll process that through Hennepin County. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Any other discussion? Councilwoman Dimler: I just want to thank you for doing the research. I guess I have to accept it. I still think that $5,000.00 for a ramp is a lot and I'm thinking that there might be something left over so at that time ae can reallocate that? Paul Krauss: Eight. Councilwoman Dimler: $o I would move. Yeah, go ahead. Todd Gerhardt: Councilwoman and Mr. Mayor. I did receive bids. He called me Friday afternoon with a verbal over the phone and it was only $1,800.00 but I want to look at that a little further. That was for a ramp in the front to the building. He said due to the contours of the rear of the building, you have to have a 12~ grade for the wheelchair. I want to go back there and look at that and see if we can't, Z just think it would take away from that building if you had a ramp in the front. We've got to look at maybe either regrading some of the area in back there or something else but ! need to meet with the gentleman that did do the bid but it's going to be in a range of that area. And that was with a concrete poured sidewalk ramp. Whatever you want to call it. 35 City Council Meeting -- April 8, 1991 Councilwoman Oimler: So I move approval. Councilman Workman: Second. Resolution ~91-30: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the allocation of $5,000.00 in CDSG funds to making the old Village Hall handicapped accessible and authorize the drafting of a resolution adopting the Year XUII CDBG funding program for forwarding to Hennepin County. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS; SIGN ORDINANCE REQUIREMENTS, COUNCILMAN WORKMAN. Mayor Chmiel: I think we've already had your discussion on that. Councilman Workman: We'll have more though. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Councilman Workman: Golf Course Committee is meeting Thursday, 5:30. Right here at City Hall. Talk about this exciting thing. Councilman Mason: Who all do you have on that? Councilman Workman: Joan Ahrens, myself, Richard Wing, Brian Batzli and as of yet an unnamed Park Commissioner. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: LEAGUE OF MINNESOTA CITIES ANNUAL CONFERENCE, CITY M~NAGER, Don Ashworth: That's set for June llth to the 14th. It will be held in Rochester. I belleve this past year when they held it up north, that that was a conflict for council members. I dld attend. It's usually a good conference. I was trying to get some idea as to tentatively, ls the Council looklng to attending that? Is there any interest? Councilman Workman: That's the U.S. Open week you know? Don Ashworth: Is that right? Councilwoman Oimler: Graduation too. Councilman Workman: I'd like to get back to you on that Don. I'm going to be attending all seven days of the U.S. Open. I can let you know maybe a certain day Z can go. Don Ashworth: I was going to say, you can pick and choose a time. Council members have just gone down for the one day. Maybe including the banquet and comlng back the next morning. That type of thlng. 36 City Council Meeting - April 8, 1991 Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I was looking at possibly Wednesday and Thursday but I'll let you know. Councilwoman Dimler: Do you have to pre-register for the whole thing? Mayor Chmiel: No. It's not required. It shows here what you can do and what you can't do. Roger Knutson: Getting a hotel can be very tough though if you don't register in advance. Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Getting a hotel is part of the problem. Councilwoman Dimler: I'll just go down for the day. Mayor Chmiel: They do have some early bird specials and they'd like you to have that registration in by May 1st. Don Ashworth: I saw May 14th as a deadline in there as well. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, it's right here. So if anyone is wantlng to do that, get back to Oon. Paul, you wanted to talk about Task Force? Paul Krauss: Yes Mr. Mayor. What I would request that the Council consider doing is appointing two members and asking the Planning Commission to appoint two members to work with staff on the final interviews of consultants wishing to work for the City on the Surface Water Utility District. We prefer not, I mean there's a lot riding on that relationship and we'd prefer to have a wide variety of opinion on that. What we're planning to do is to cut it down. We have 15 or 16 applicants for that now. What we'd like to do is in-house we're going to review that. Get it down to 5 who we think are the best and have those 5 prepare detailed proposals for review by this task force. The second charge for this task force, as I see it too, is to basically become the nucleus of a group that would be assembled to work with us on this thing over the next couple years and I would see this group making some recommendations with your assistance on the Council Mr. Mayor, to appoint some people from lake associations to work with us. A manageable group is probably 7 to 10 people. More than that, you have problems with having people come regularly and it is a fairly significant committment of time. Mayor Chmiel: I would think we should have at least 10 people. Get a little better idea and a little better consensus. I know there is some Indication that some people would 11ke to serve on it. I would probably as well and I think we had a couple others that also felt. You may have three Council people or maybe even four. The more there are the better the interest, that's good. So I would suggest that you proceed and try to get some people from specific areas. I'd 11ke to get people from the lake areas to come up wlth some people who have some knowledge as to the engineering aspects of it, if they're there. Paul Krauss: Well possibly what we could do is work with the newspapers that are here tonight. I hope they're still here, see if we can have them run an article and ask for some names. I've received some phone calls back and some responses from the surface water utility bills and I've asked them to write to 37 City Council Meeting -- April 8, 1991 you directly Mr. Mayor and indicate their interest but if we can put together thi:3 task force e,~rly enough, probably sometime in June, we can have them participate in, as a whole group, on the interviews. It'd be nice for all those people to have an understanding. Hayor Chmiel: Okay. That's great. Councilman Workman: By the way, this is Dave Pederson's last night at the Councl] so we're going to be throwing him into that pool up there. Mayor Chmie].: There isn't any water. Councilman Workman: That's all the better. Mayor Chmiel; Maybe we should say Boll Voyage. Have fun in the fail' state of California and if you really strike and hlt gold, call us. Councilman Mason: Dick wanted to set up. Mayor Chmiel: Yes, I had that one. He wanted to set up a meetlng and I just had some brief discussion with Don to have an analogy of that meeting and he's going to pull that together. As soon as we get that, then ~ think we can set up a meeting. A breakfast meetlng and sit down and look at the goals and review them. Councilman Mason: Sounds good. I guess I would llke thls to be on the record. I'm only speaking fol' myself but I was really impressed at the workshop session on Saturday with everyone that was there. As I commented, I've been in education and worked with people for a long time and to have, I don't know what there were, 15 people there I thlnk? Clearly I thought everyone was worklng for the common goal and thal's to make Chanhassen a better place. It was real fun to be a part of that. Mayor Chmiel: Good. Appreciate the comments. Any other discussion? Councilman Workman moved, Counc£1man Hason seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted Jn favor and the motlon carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10:00 Submitted by Boll Ashuorth city Manager Prepared by Mann Opheim 38