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1991 01 07CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL HEETING JANUARY 7, 1991 Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:20 p.m.. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCIL HEHBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Workman, Councilwoman Dimler, Councilman Wing and Councilman Mason PLANNING COHHISSIONERS PRESENT: Ladd Conrad, Steve Emmings, Tim Erhart, Annette Ellson, Jim Wildermuth and Brian Batzli STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Elliott Knetsch, Todd Gerhardt, Gary Warren, Paul Krauss and Mark Koegler OATH OF OFFICE: Elliott Knetsch presented the Oath of Office to Mayor Don Chmiel, Councilman Richard Wing and Councilman Hike Mason. PRESENTATION OF HAPLE LEAF AWARDS: Mayor Chmiel: I'd like to, at this particular time, present an award to the people who have served on the Planning Commission and some of the reasons behind it, as well as the Council feels, you people have dedicated a lot of time, a lot of their talents by providing the kind of considerations that have been glven over the period of reviewing our Land Use Plan. Comprehensive Plan was something that took a lot of time, a lot of patience, a lot of understanding and I feel very strong that I wanted to have them receive an award for this. I'd 11ke to read you what the Maple Leaf Award says. Presented to and in recognition of your efforts in preparing and analysing the City's Comprehensive Plan for the 1990's whlch represents an examination of our history, our accomplishments and failures in the past and a gutde for the next decade. This is signed by each of the Council people as well as myself. Issued to them on January 7th, 1991. What I'd like to do is present each of these awards to each individual separately. The flrst one I have in my hand is Steve Emmlngs. Ladd Conrad. Timothy Erhart. Annette Ellson. Joan Ahrens. I don't see Joan here. We'll hold that for her and give that to her later. James Wlldermuth. And Brian Batz11. Brian's not here either. Thank you. We really appreciate your tlme and effort. CONSIDER APPROVAL OF DRAFT COHPREHENSIVE PLAN: Public Present: Name Address Peter Beck Thomas Green Mark Foster Bill Hiller Helen Loeb1 Mark Williams 7900 Xerxes Avenue So, Minneapolis Mills Fleet Farm, 1952 Graydon Blvd. 8020 Acorn Lane 9121 Pinewood Circle 7197 Frontier Trail 1655 Lake Lucy Road city council Meeling - January 7, i991 Eric Rivkin Dale Carlson D.J. Fretland A1Klingelhutz Gene Qulnn Jim Curry Larry VanDeVeire Dennis Oirlum Jerome Carlson 1695 Steller Court 6900 Utica Lane 1606 Black Oak Lane 8600 Great Plains Blvd. 532 Lyman Blvd. Landowner in Southern Chanhassen 4980 Co. Rd. 10 E, Chaska 15241 Creekside Court, Eden Prairie 8280 Galpin Blvd. Paul Krauss: Tonight's meeting has been set to give the City Council an opportunity to revlew the draft Comprehensive Plan that's been prepared for the community. The Planning Commission has been working diligently on the plan for over 2 years and throughout the process there's been a considerable amount of publlc input as a result of the large number of open work sesslons that were held, neighborhood meetings, publlc hearings, the volume of written correspondence that we've recelved and a number of individuals uho've come tn to dlscuss the plan ulth me personally. The Plan itself has been in the process of continual refinement. It's hoped that if this process hasn't resulted in a plan that everybody flnes completely satisfactory, that at least everybody feels that they've been heard and that changes have been made to move in the directions that they had hoped. The process has been a lengthy one, not only due to the need to gain public input but also due to the Plan's complexity. It's designed to replace our orlglnal 1980 Comprehensive Plan that frankly became very dated due to our growth and complex new issues that developed in the past 10 years. The plan's deslgned to manage the Clty's growth in the coming decade and lt's our belief that the 1990's have a very good potential for being an excitlng decade for the clty. We find that in addltlon to our hlgh quallty residential neighborhoods and natural environment, the City now has a large and growing employment base and wlth a downtown that is flnally comlng together after a lot of years of effort. We're in the process of gainlng excellent access with TH 5 being under construction and TH 212 hopefully under construction in the not too dlstant future and also our neighboring communities are essentially filling up. The Plannlng Commission's challenge has been to develop a plan that bullds upon the strengths of the community and allows for reasonable growth while protecting our quality of 11fe. To attaln thls goal the Plan ls far more than a land use plan or land use map which has gotten most of the comment during our discussions. The land use map itself ls the gulde that dlrects future growth. It also contains detail, the plan also contains detailed guidelines for protecting the natural environment, lnsuring provision of adequate transportation and publlc facilities, expansion of recreational opportunities and clty utilities to meet growlng demands and other matters necessary to meet the goals that were established by the Plannlng Commission. In short the plan Js a vlsion of what Chanhassen could become by the end of the lggO's. The Land Use Plan has been the focus of much of the Planning Commission's efforts concerning the comprehensive plan. In a minute I'll ask Mark Koegler who's been our consultant who's worked ulth us throughout the process, to glve you an overvlew of the land use plan but before dolng do I just wanted to outline the remaining parts of the adoptlon process. As you're probably aware, the City Counc11 has the ablllty to approve, deny or modlfy the plan that's belng reviewed tonight. If lt's to be approved, it would have to be approved subject to the Metropolitan Council's approval. After you've acted, the Metropolitan City Council Meeting - January 7, 1991 Council will become the primary focus of our attentions since under State law they have the option of also reviewing the plan and requiring changes to Sections that have some metropolitan significance. As you're aware, staff has been working with the Metro Council staff themselves for the past 1 1/2 years and hopefully we've been able to smooth out that adoption process but that's by no means assured. Although their staff amidst a serious failings in their data, the Metro Council has yet to revise their year 2000 projections which contain population employment forecasts for 10 years from now which we exceeded last year. The Metro Council is frankly also a political body with an agenda of it's own so that a diligent work effort on our part is going to be required to assure adoption of the plan as approved by the Council. With that I'd like to pass the meeting over to Mark Koegler to give you a brief overview of the land use plan itself and how it was developed. Mark Koegler: Thanks Paul. I'll pick up Mayor and Council, on Paul's term brief and try to be just that. Z think a lot of the faces in the room tonight are people who were at the public hearing and we'll allow plenty of time to respond to questions. I'd like to highlight again that the land use section of the plan is merely one component of the document itself and it bears relationship to all of the other sections of the document. There's transportation, recreation, housing and a number of others. To a certain degree the land use chapter which always, I think gardners the most attention in virtually any community because it's a graphic picture of what's likely to occur. It is driven very much by the demographic information that's in the plan itself and anybody that has a chance to review that will find that early on the Planning Commission went through a process by which they looked at three different sets of projections for population and community growth. One's we labeled kind of a iow, a midrange and a high. Their decision was that the midrange projections accurately reflected what Chanhassen was likely to experience. Those projections were done approximately 2 years ago. They called for a 1990 the City to have a household count of about 4,100 with a corresponding population of about 11,105. That compared very favorable to the early census data that came out late last year that showed the City's population at about 11,700 with a household count of about 4,009 so again, very close. That same set of midrange projections, if you carry it onto the year 2000 identifies that the City anticipates a household count of about 6,500 or about a 2,500 increase over the next 10 years and a population count of about 17,700, up from approximately 12,000 at the present time. So again those numbers to a large degree have driven the land use map that's behind me and specifically correspond to the amount of land that's been allocated in the various categories. So with that I will kind of bounce back to the map for a minute and give you a quick overview of that and then touch upon some transportation issues. Z don't know what's comfortable for everybody but feel free to shift around so that you can see the best possible. The colors on this map I think are pretty familiar to most of you. The yellows basically are the residential. Yellow going into brown. The red color is commercial. The purple is the office industrial. There's two green colors on here. One corresponds to parks. The other corresponds to public open space. There's a couple of other categories that I'll touch upon in a minute. What I'd like to do is give you a little bit of background as to why the colors are on the map and the way they're configured and then move into some other specific information. This plan is to a large degree a continuation of the plan the city started with in 1980 and at that time the city's predominant residential area was around Lotus Lake, carrying over City Council Heeling ~ January 7, 1991 into Lake Hinnewasl',ta on the north side of the city. Chanhassen Lakes Business Park down in this area was in it's infancy. Downtown was struggling with the beginnings of tax increment beginning to take effect there. This plan then basically builds upon what the 1980 plan called for which essentially was kind of a pattern of infill throughout the northern community and kind of working down towards the southwest. That's largely uhat has happened with the residential. The leu density residential which is the yellow color, the predominant category of land use on the map. That's a logical extension for the most part of existing residential areas. The industrial that's in the purple color is kind of a continuation again of this original business park. If you cou].d see Chaska's land use overlayed on top of this map which would fit down in this portion, you'd see a great deal of this purple color that abuts the community down in the southwestern portion. What we begin to get is a linkage between the existing business park kind of following the railroad tracks, coming down towards the City of Chaska. The commercial is identified primarily in the downtown area. This comprehensive plan, much like the last one, places it's emphasize on downtown Chanhassen. It is in a unique position to have a downtown ...focus there from a planning perspective the last 10 years or so and they're likely to remain there, at ].east in according to this plan as it sits right now. I glossed over one category that I want to touch on now. These ~995 study areas and there are two of them. One to the south and one to the west, are kind of holding categories. The Planning Commission got into the plan, there were a couple of areas that were determined to be pre-mature for land use designation primarily due to either timing of transportation or the timing of utility extensions. Both of those areas have been held in that category. ~hat that means in reality is the plan says literally after it's adopted, begin to focus on those and over the course of the next couple of years when more of the transportation ,and utility information is in, to be able to identify the land use patterns, particularly for that western...southern one as well. Park~ are largely an extension of uh,zt is there at the present time. I think that... pretty well in effect. The semi-public parcels such as the Arboretum, this plan does not call for any new major areas. Those typically are outslde agencies. There were a serles of lssues that the Plannlng Commission addressed at t helr public hearing on October 24th and a number of those lssues really were taklng place rlght up unt11 that meetlng. I guess I want to highlight those very briefly for the Council's benefit and for those that are present this evenlng. One of them was the Timberwood subdivision which ls this 11ghter color yellow. That lighter color yellow is the residential large lot which means there's a minlmum 2 1/2 acre lot and in that case, and in most others that were established prior to 1987. This was a subject of considerable discussion. Considerable land use alternatives by the commission. Ultimately they agreed upon a pattern that set a residential buffer if you wi11, kind of around that exlstlng residential area. There was a similar effort that took place to the south wlth Sunridge ¢.our~ which ls ,~ smaller development here. Agaln, there were some changes made in the plan to allocate some residential that would abut that. Another issue that took place was the Lake Lucy Highlands area which ls predominantly this portion of the community. There were some alternatives looked at to call, I guess you gerrymandered the line around perhaps the HUSA line to service some properties to take some properties out. What I should probably do before I go further ls highlight the MUSA line which is this red ].1ne on t hls map. For anybody who somehow has missed that acronym for the last 20 years, it's Metropolitan Urban Service Area and it essentially ls simply a line between whlch you can have utlllty service prior to the year 2000 and uhlch City Council Meeting - January 7, 1991 by the Metropolitan Council's pol£cies you cannot. It doesn't mean it's there but it means the ability ks there to extend it ~nto those areas. Other issues that surfaced. There was a small commercial site in the plan at one time designated down here at TH 5 and Galpin. The commission in some other later deliberations decided to pull that out and put it back into a medium density category. There was a concept derived when part of this plan became labeled as buffer areas. An example is down in this area where you have residential abutting office/industrial type environment. There's a line on this map that identifies that there's a buffer area planned between those uses as well as along the road right-of-way and there a number of other of those scattered throughout the community. Essentially those are intended to be additional open space buffer areas above and beyond what you would normally find under normal zoning setbacks. Berming, landscaping, and those kinds of things in corridors that would be an additional 50 to 100 feet in width. The final issue that surfaced was addressed by the commission !thtnk literally at the hearing on the 24th was the proposal by Lundgren Brothers out on the western portion of the community to take a piece of land that formerly was in the 1995 study area and to identify that as low density residential. The commission did review that and after deliberation found that that was probably a valid approach. It has been added then to what is now being identified as the City's year 2000 land use plan. One thing I want to give you is a very quick picture of what all of this means. There is a small red line on here that's probably difficult to see. That's the City's existing MUSA line. If you look at any area between that line and the new MUSA line, that area inbetween becomes the area that's being added to Chanhassen sewer service area by the year 2000. I want to give you just a quick numbers as to how much area is actually represented by this map. Excluding this piece which I would guess ts 80 to 90 acres probably in total size, the City's MUSA line expansion proposed by this plan is approximately 2,700 acres. That's a very large number. ! think it's important also to break that number down. Of that 2,700 acres, approximately 550 are in existing developments such as Timberwood and some of the others as well as any existing parks that fall within that expansion area. There, as you well kno~, in Chanhassen there's a significant amount of wetlands. The wetlands factored out of that number, take out about another 270 acres. There are a couple of parcels in particularly this portion of the community that are owned by private individuals who have expressed a desire and probably have the f£nancial resources to hold that property out of development for a number of years. It their intent not to develop. Those t~o parcels alone count for approximately another 150 acres. There's parks in the area that are about 2~1 acres so what it boils down to is the expansion in terms of a net of approximately 840 acres of residential, single family. 1~5 acres of multi-family and approximately 540 acres of office/industrial. On this map is also overlayed transportation information. That's the heavier blue lines and the dotted lines and some of the double ~ines that you can see on the land use exhibit. I want to touch briefly upon the expansions and the new alignments as they come out through the MUSA line area. You'll notice on the north side of TH 5 stretching from CR ~7 or Powers out to TH 41, there is a northern frontage road along TH 5. That's consistent with the planning MnOot has been doing'for the upgrade of TH 5 for a number of years now. Similarly along the south side there is another leg that somewhat is a detached frontage road that comes across to the west, hits...and then goes on over to TH 41 where it abuts Chaska here on the common border. couple of other new collector street alignments. One is the extension of Lake Lucy Road westward ultimately to TH 41. Another lies further to the south City Council. Heeting - January 7, 1991 of that area. TH 212 J.s shown on this map in it's configuration that has been officiaJ, ly mapped. HnOot is actually out now doing design for the first segments that will go through Eden Prairie. So the next segment upon completion of that is the segment down to Lyman Blvd. and over to Mitchell Road in Eden Prairie so that's becoming a reality. That alignment is shown on this plan. I think that touches upon all of the major application issues. With that I'll call on Paul. Paul Krauss: I tl~J. nk I'm done Mayor. It's back to you. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, very good. Thank you. Being just sort of a brief overview, it's well done. Thank you. I'd like to open this meeting up at this particular time for anyone who has any specific comments they'd like to make at this time. I'd ]Jke you to pi. ease state your name and your address when addressing at the podium. So with that, if there's anyone at this particular time that would like to come forth and indicate some of their concerns, please do so now. Peter Beck; Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, my name is Peter Beck, 7900 Xerxes Avenue South. I'm here tonight on behalf of Mills Fleet Farm. ~ith me tonight is Tom 6reer, with Mills Fleet Farm. I have a letter which ue have, very short letter, which ue have addressed to the Council that I'll ask Tom to take one and pass on. Mills Fleet Farm guns approximately 50 acres in this area right here as the Council may know. At the intersection of highways 5 and 4~. They acquired that property itl ~987 for' the purpose of locating a Mills Fleet Farm facility at that intersection of tug State highways. After some discussion uJth city staff and the former mayor and councJlmembers, rather than proceed at that time with the necessary approvals, they agreed to go along and make their plans or their proposal known and part of the discussion of the overall comprehensive plan review. So they have been working with staff, have been participants in the long process that Paul described over the last 2 or 3 years. The concern tha~ they have about the recommendation tonight is that in their case it amounts to another 4 or 5 years of uncertainty if you will. Virtual moratorium on any decision with respect to their facility at that location so the position ue have tonight as set forth in the letter is just simply a request that the Council make a decision with respect to this property a~ part of this comprehensive pla~ amendment or adoption process. That is, not defer this any longer. Or at ~ minimum ask that the Planning Commission, planning staff, Planning Commission, immediately undertake to address their location in this ~995 study area in the western part of the city within the next few months so they are not delayed another 4~5 years. Certainly this intersection some day would presumably be an appropriate site to consider for a commercial uses at the intersection of two state highways. When that might happen is one thing but having at least some knowledge as to whether it will ever happen is something else in terms of having a plan there and having it guided for eventual commercial use. So that is the request. There is no objection to, as your staff has pointed out, the bulk of what you're doing tonight is adopting a very comprehensive document with a lot of text and we're not here to object to that. Object to the adoption of that. We are here to request that the 1995 study area be addressed in a shorter timeframe at a minimum, if not as part of this very process. Mr. Green and I'd be happy to answer any questions if there are any about that request. City Council Meeting - January 7, 1991 Mayor Chmiel: Does anyone have any specific questions? I guess not. Peter Beck: Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else? Dennis Oirlum: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, my name is Dennis Dirlum. I live at 15241Creekside Court in Eden Prairie. I'm one of the partners that owns 137 acres on TH 5 that wraps around the Ttmberwood area and adjoins the McGlynn industrial site to the west. We also have been working with the staff and the Planning Commission since the beginning and are concerned about the guide plan. The way it is and we voiced those concerns in the past but I want to bring them up to you also. You look at the guide plan the way it is now, you look at TH 5 and the commercial and industrial developments all the way along. You see purples or reds all the way along it but when you come to our site it's yellow, single family. As a developer of residential sites, it's very difficult to sell single family homes that back up to a four lane highway and that is our basic objection. That the city has done a good job of protecting the'existing single family and I think we need to look to the future and do we want to put a freeway in the backyard or put houses somewhere where there's a freeway in the backyard. We would ask that you consider something other than that and understand that this is a good location for a junior high school and we would concur with that with the possibility of extending the industrial area over to the green space with the second tree which gives it a natural break from the industrial over to the school and the other negatives is the single family with a... So we'd like you to consider that as an option in looking at this tonight. The rest of the plan, the star has been more than cordial in working with us and the Planning Commission and thank you very much. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Does anyone have any questions of Dennis on the Council? Thank you. Is there anyone else that would like to address this? Larry VanOeVeire: My name is Larry VanOeVeire, 4980 County Road 10 in Chaska. I own the 13 acres at the intersection of Galpin Blvd. and TH 5. Originally in the Comp Plan it was set aside as neighborhood commercial. That was changed at some time this summer. I guess I'd like to have some reconsideration on that being changed back to neighborhood commercial. I guess I felt it met the Comp Plan. Fell into the Comp Plan's specs if you want to call it that. Again, I guess I don't believe that, it's slated for a four lane highway with a lighted intersection there. I guess I just don't feel that that's a place for residential. Mayor Chmiel: Does anyone have any questions of Larry? Councilman Workman: I have a quick one. When did you buy the property? Larry VanDeVeire: I think it was 1985. Is that right? 1985. Councilman Workman: And what was it zoned then? Larry VanDeVeire: It was zoned ag-residential. R-4. Councilman Workman: And when was it then changed to neighborhood commercial? City Council Meeting - Janu,~ry 7, 199J. Larry VanOeVeire: Through the process of the comp plan. Council. man Workman: Earlier this year-? Larry VanDeVeire: The first time I'd seen it would have been early this spring. Mayor Chmiel: Ma?or Paul can address that. Paul Krauss: If I could clarify that. There's been a number of draft land use plans developed over the last year starting probably I guess it was a year ago November was the first. Through that process Mark and I at first took a first shot at that ~nd then the Planning Commission started to massage it around and it was changed. Olde of the earlier drafts I believe had a neighborhood comme'rcial node on that. corner and it was largely untouched for' most of this spring and into the summer and then I believe it was when we had the neighborhood meeting, we had the north and the south side neighborhood meetings, it drew some criticism from people who lived up on Galpin and as a result the Planning Commission deleted that from consideration. $o it's been out of the planning consideration for a good 6 months but it was only on a draft plan. It's never been in zoning or anything else. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Larry VanDeVeire: Excuse me. Can I ask a question? How far can a resident live to complain about land use? I guess I'm not aware of who was complaining or how marly people were complaining. I'm at a standstill as far as you know why it was changed. It fits with the comp plan. It was there for quite some time. I guess I ~ust never got the input on why it was changed. To me it made a good neighborhood commercial site. It met all of the guidelines. The buffer zone was there. It was small. It fell right into the wording of the comp plan and to put residential there to me, I guess we bought it for residential. We bought it to live there and after being there, I planted 1,500 trees out on that property and that was ~ years ago now. $ or 6 years ago. Spring of 1986 l think it was. That traffic at that time was too bad. The trees in the background actually act as a buffer to contain the noise from the highway. It's very loud there compared to if it would be up on a hill or somewhere other than the way it's situated and I didn't feel it was suited for residential at that time and decided to hold onto it for speculation at that time. And right now I guess I couldn't, and I had the opportunity in, was it 1~87, to subdivide at the same time Timberwood was. Break it out into 2 1/2 acre parcels and chose not to because at that time I still couldn't see it fit for residential. Mayor Chmie].: Would you point out your location on that map? Larry VanOeVeire: Right here. I guess I didn't feel it was fit for commercial for me or for anyone else. At the time I could have subdivided it and I still don't feel that way now that it does make good, or excuse me. Did I say commercial? Good residential property. Mayor Chmie]: I think some of the points that were brought up at that particular time too, if ~ remember Paul and Larry. One of the factors were that it's so close to downtown that a commercial kind of grocery store or something of that particular nature wasn't really a good location for that. If I remember City Council Meeting - January 7, 1991 that was part of the discussion back then. The revisional changes that went back and kept it as residential was some of the thoughts that were there and come back into that particular zoning. Maybe you can elaborate on that a little bit more Paul. Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, it's kind of tough to go back in your mind and figure, you know try to remember exactly why all the changes were made that were made. Initially at a staff level when we prepared a draft of the plan, we felt that that was an acceptable neighborhood commercial site. It's 11mtted scope. There's not a lot of acreage there and as you can see, there's a proposal for a frontage road to come across the front of tt so that would take some of the ground that already is there. That there probably ls golng to be some desire at some point to have neighborhood commercial type services prior to turning into your neighborhood area. I don't recall it being a major issue during the consideration but it did receive some attention and some concerns wet raised by residents in the meetlngs over the summer and it was one of those changes that was made. I don't know what else I can offer unless the Planning Commissioners that are here tonight can add to the rationale to it. Mayor Chmiel: Yes, maybe we can have that. Steve? Steve Emmings: ...recollect the change but I do know that when complaints were voiced... On a more positive note, we also thought that the intersection of TH 5 and TH 41 was almost certain to develop with some commercial uses that would be the same type that would developer at that corner and we thought that between the downtown and what would exist at TH 41 and TH 5 would probably be adequate to serve the needs of the people in that area. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Larry VanDeVeire: Excuse me, if I might add. Even if it wasn't changed back to a neighborhood commercial, I guess the main thing I have is I just don't feel that it's sulted for residential. Like I say, I wouldn't live there. I dldn't ask anyone else to live there and I'm still not asking that. I drive numerous miles around the metro area and I can't recall any intersection, four lane 11ghted intersection with housing on the corner. New houslng. If there is houslng there, it's old houslng. If lt's very old housing, a lot of that old housing has been turned into a commercial establishment. An Insurance establishment. Stuff 11ke that. If there are any old houses, what the maln goal was to have Chanhassen look nice, what I've noticed is that you see privacy fences up on those, you know stockade type fences up if there are older houses there that haven't been converted to commercial use. I guess that's all I have. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Is there anyone else? Jerome Carlson: Mr. Mayor. My name is Jerome Carlson. 6950 Chanhassen but if you're golng to mail us something you'd better make it Excelsior. It will never get there. But that's a different issue. I would like to start on a positive note and congratulate the Zoning and Plannlng and the Council and anybody else that has worked hard on this plan. I may or may not agree with it entirely but I do respect the tremendous time and effort that has been put into this sort of thing. Our particular property is right up here.. It runs through the north end of Harrlson Lake and I thlnk some of you are perhaps famlliar with lt. I must City Counc.il Meeting -- January ?, 1991 admit this was the first t~me Z noticed the green space, park and open space. That would cut us rJ. ght ill half almost, T want to point that out and I must object to that if it were to be something that would be seriously enacted during ~,l'~y time that ue live there, Zf we sold and subdivided or some such thing, Z can appreciate at that time the desire to move in the direction of a trail system but the way out' property currently lays out, that really does include perhaps at least a quarter of a mile right through the heart of our property and so Z must simply go oil record and object to that happening while ue own the property or if we were to sell it in bulk. The other thing that Z really wanted to comment on was the po~,ential for tax increases. Our concern, when we bought the property originally, very briefly, it was checked with the city and our ind£c.~tion was that J.t would be 2005 or sometime like that before there would be any 'rezoning which we thought was a good idea and sounded like something we wanted. This of course is happening subsequent to that and Z'm not opposed to the f~ct that cl~anges occur. They happen in business all the time, ~hat I'm concerned about J.s again while we live there, does the rezoning affect the rate at which our taxes will increase or are they going to decrease Hr. Hayer? You don't h~ve to answer that. Mayor ChmJ. e]: I can't. Jerome Carlson: The concern is that as a result of rezoning of property that we I~ave no intention of developing at this time, does that affect the rate at which our taxes will increase or are taxes to be based upon current use? Don Ashworth: They're based upon current use. 3aroma Carlson: So if we live there and we have a few horses there and maybe even some beef, J.f that's perm£ss~ble, we'll check with you. Zt's based upon t hat use? Don ~shworth: That's correct. Jerome Carlson: And no matter what color they paint it, it isn't going to presumably affect that? Don Ashuorth: You could be influenced by other large lot rural values. If rur,~l values increased, hypothetically you could see some increase. It's really on the use. .T t hlnk Al, Commissioner K11ngelhutz u111 agree with that point. And Paul, T. don't know if you have anything to add. Al. Klinge].hutz: Actually we had Orin Shafer at one of the hearings and that was a big discussion from a lot of the large lot areas. He said anything that was in those areas, because of the rezonlng of the entlre area would not change the taxes except as values go up in the entire rural area that you can expect to see an lncrease there but overall the ldea of the zonlng alone would not change that. Paul Krauss: If I could expand on that a little bit. The land use plan is a guide for future development. Your property Jerome, unless you want to make a change or sell it to somebody that does, wlll remaln wlth lt's agricultural designation. Also green acres and whatever other' tax provisions you oper'ate ttnd¢r are wholly separate o'[ whatever we do here and there would be no 10 City Council Meeting - January 7, 1991 underminding of that. It should be stressed that this plan is not intended to make anybody develop their property or to force that decision to come earlier of raising property values. We've taken great efforts to try to make sure that it's structured in such a way that those decisions are made by people when they want to make them and that there's no hint of coersion or a schedule or anything else. In fact case in point, Mr. Carlson, your property and Prince's property were singled out as two exceptions that we want to teii the Metro Council about specifically. Because of the unique ownership situations of the individuals involved and the large amount of land that you both hold, we want to tell the Metro Council that here are several hundred acres that are going to be within the MUSA line but we don't expect them to develop in the next iO to i5 years and here's why so we're asking that they be treated special. In fact there's a dialogue to the Metro Council as to how exactly they're going to do that because apparently nobody's ever asked them that before. But we've already made that case to them. Jerome Carlson: We have mentioned the front 13 on TH 417 We've talked about that? Paul Krauss: Yes. Jerome Carlson: Thank you very much. Those were my primary concerns. Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Thank you. Just as a quick plug for the Council. We have, as you well know in the past 2 years, lowered taxes for those that were reassessed. I always like to bring that up because it's very difficult to try to keep thlngs down and we have. Also agaln this year there's going to be a slight reduction but we can't guarantee what either the County might do or the School Oistrlct but at least we know where we're at. A1Klingelhutz: ...we get too many mandated rules like building a new jail... Mayor Chmiel: You're right and I understand that unfortunately. Gary Warren: Relative to Mr. Carlson's comment on the park area on his property. You mlght want to address that but that is the Lake Ann Interoeptor easement area which the Lake Ann Interceptor was construction in 1987-88 so that is a permanent easement area on the property. Z think the City, maybe Mark wants to address it, is looking to take. Mayor Chmiel: Is that a dual kind of easement? Gary Warren: Dual in the fact that we could use it as a trail corridor and such? Paul Krauss: No. Gary Warren: There's a specific use that was for the Interceptor alone. Jerome Carlson: I guess Mr. Mayor, that was my point. When we were approached about granting that easement, we were careful that it was a single use. We had no idea what might come. We didn't give this any thought at all but there was at that tlme a snowmobile trall that was utilizing that corrldor rlght through 11 City CouncJ.]. Meet~n~j -- January 7, 1991 ou'r property so that was our impetus at that time to make sure that it was defined. That was why we raised the issue now. Mayo,- ChmCe].: Okay, tha,k you. Is there anyone else? Dale CaT'lson: Dale Carlson, 6900 Utica Lane Zn Chanhassen. Z'm representing the. Lake Lucy Ilomeowners Association and I just wanted to point out something that as I was reading the comprel~ensive plan, as it relates to Lake Lucy. asking some. consideration be given to a particular section relating to Lake I.ucy. ~ comment was made earlier that. this comprehensive plan is to be used a guide for the next decade and someone else made a comment that it was more than likely to occur and I'd like to point out that in the recreational section of the comprehensive plan it states that the recommendation is that Lake Lucy contin[te to be maintained as a natural environment lake. I believe that cveryplace I re~d, not only in the comprehensive plan but also in the Lake Riley restoration proj~)ct work plan that some of us know so well, that there is very definite dJ. ffr;rence between an environmental lake and a recreational lake and I request that some consideration bo given to including or rewording the plan so Lake Lucy be considered a recreational lake, not an environmental lake. Thank you. Mayor Chmiol: Okay, thank you Dale. Do you have any comments on that Paul? Pau]. Krauss: I'm not sure there's a conflict really ill terms of intent. Possibly Mark could get into that a little bit. Mark Koegler: Yeah, I don't ~hink the classification as the City has used, natural environment lake in the Comp Plan necessarily is parallel to like the DNR ctCts.oific,'~tion of lakes. I think there's text, if I remember correctly that just e.ludr;s to the I,O;'e natural habitat and the fact that that lake contains ].arge wetland areas around it. It's in that context that the term natural ¢.nvironment. The te..rm is not meant to be exclusive of recreational usage of the lake itself. We can take a .took at that text but I think there's not really a conflict. I think it's a difference of terms. Dale Carlson: okay but I think that term is...because if we're going to be makiT~g decisions later on for example, I noticed in the comprehensive plan under the list natural, environment lakes, I see Rice Marsh Lake, Harrison, Lake St. Joe and SJ].ver Lake and over under recreational development lakes I see... In that one section you refer to Lake Lucy as an environmental lake. Mark Koeg].er: ~ think the plan speaks more to the shoYeland development pattern th~n it does the actual lake or the use of the surface w~ter itself. We can take a look at that. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Dick? Councilman Wing: I was jt~st interested in Mr. Carlson's more specific concerns. You obviously want ~t to be recreational. Can you define what some of your concerns were? Environmental versus recreational. Dale Carlson: Yeah we, you guys might even be able to talk about that more. There's s:O,le of you people on the Council that were involved in the Rlley- 12. City Council Meeting - January 7, 1991 Purgatory-Bluff Creek watershed district work plan and there was a very definite difference in that work plan between the different levels of lakes. Levels I, II, III and IV. In the Comprehensive Plan that Lake Lucy becomes like a Level IV lake and the kinds of funding that the City may go after. The types of funding that we may be able to obtain and...association can be directiy affected by what ue classify that lake in. And so that's why I thought that ciassification was important' Our goai is a recreational...Lake Lucy as a lake that ue can water ski on. That you can swim in. That we can do the kinds of things that ue have been doing at least for the last 20 years that I've lived there. Eric Rivkin: I think I can help Richard point to a specific thing. Mayor Chmiel: State your name. Eric Rivkin: Eric Rivkin. I live on Lake Lucy and also I'm a Co-Chairperson with Dale for the Lake Lucy Homeowners Association. On page 50 of one of the Sections, Recreational Sectlon I believe in the Comp Plan it says, the Clty should maintain Lake Lucy as a natural environment lake suitable for passive uses and may want to consider the prohibition of motors as has been enacted on Lake Ann. That is what we're concerned about. That is not the same as on page 2 in another Sectlon of the Comp Plan which says, Lake Lucy should be designated as a recreational lake. Recreational lake uses are things that if we want to be able to pursue funding by ourselves or with government funds, whatever, over the long term to improve the lake, water quality so that swimming, boating, fishing and water skllng are not impaired anymore. That ls also commensurate wlth the goals of the Watershed District and the State who Oale mentioned were in the work plan that ls now klnd of sittlng dead in the water at the Watershed District level. The programs that we've already instated to rehabilitate the lake have been that we've engaged ourselves in a program to eliminate purple loosestrife on the lake as a Lake Association and also to put up a temporary carp barrier to prevent carp from swimmlng upstream to Lake Lucy. That is part of a bigger plan that ue have had to restore the lake. Does that help answer your question Dick? Councilman Wing: I guess I wasn't aware that water skiing and power boating going on at that level, that that was really an issue. Eric Rivkin: There is. There ls today and we want to contlnue that. Councilman Wing: I guess I've seen you take such strong environmental stands, I was confused to see you defending that end of it versus maybe keeping it. Eric Rivkin: Well there's very little amount of power boats on the lake. The lake isn't blg enough that I think lt's a worry for lakeshore owners who want to see it as a quiet lake because in spite of the fact that there are only 2 motorboats on the lake, even if it were fully developed, the lake just lsn't big enough to accommodate more than like 2 powerboats anyway so uill always just remaln just because of it's slze and outlay that it just can't handle that many. So the intent of it being a quiet lake I think will still be maintained. Councilman Wing: Except will that meet DNR standards for a public access and if you have power boating from the neighborhoods, can you restrict power boating 13 City Counci.]. Heet. i~9 January 7, 1991 from the public? I mean Eric R.i. vkin: The way it sits now, there'~ Greenwood Shores is owrled by the City and i't. borders lake [.ucy and Lake Ann both and anybody who wants to portage a canoe from Lake Ann can ~imply walk over and put it into t. ake Lucy so in effect the'r~'s a community publ. lc access. It does not meet DNR standards because they want ~ d~'ive in access and that's a whole separate issue. Councilwomal~ Dimly. r: Eric would you, it says here for passive uses. Would you explain ,.~ ].it L.l.o bSt whnt that means to you? It's on page 50, the last paragraph. Eric Rivkin: The City should maintaln Lake Lucy as a natural environment lake Sl~itable for passive uses. Well, I didrl't come up with that statement so I don't know. Councilwoman Oimler: I know but what does it mean to you and are you in agreement with that? Eric Rivkin: Well as a Lake Association representative I guess I'd have to say · that passJ, ve means no motors. [:ou~ciluoman Oimler: Okay. Is that what the intent was Paul do you know or Hark? Mai'k Ko¢.:gle'r': I can't honestly speak to that. That's been in the text probably even in the 1980 plan .I would guess and probably didn't get changed this time around. There have been ~'[ public meetings over the years consideration dJ. scussiorls aboLtt the ,.~pprop'r'iateness of mo(ors on Lake Lucy and particularly whe~ the Lake Riley study was goJ. rlg on, there was a lot of discussion of the Inotors and turbZtJ, ty and everything else. To the best of my knowledge Councill~lan Wing's comment that if it has boats by private riparian owners, it h~s the potential to helve bo~ts by the public dlSO. It doesn't work to exclude one. ~oroup or another. So I think the intent was to maintain a low scale recrr-'.abJ_on¢.l development pCttern ol~ that lake. Th~.; City to my knowledge h~s not had ,~ny efforts to put a public access in there that womtld enhance that but ~ can't rea.l, ly spe&k to exactly what was meant and that may be something that you want to c.l. arify. Cou~cilwoman Oimlor: Yeah I do because I know sonic boat owners on that lake I. hat spe. c£Flc~lly came forward zt that time and said that they would be opposed to having J.t be a quiet lake. Eric Rivkin: Right, and I'm representative of that. councilwoman Oimler: So I'm surprised to see that in here. Maybe they weren't aware thai. that was in there and since you're representing that homeowners a::~sociat ion. Er~c R~vkin: Right, because we had given the City our lake association restoration objoct£ves whicl~ lncluded swimming, boating, fishing and water ::'.kilrlg as Lo improve and malnta~n those recreational uses and that should have somehow mnnife:;ted .itself in here. Three other goals of ours was to improve ]4 City Council Heeting - January ?, 1991 biological health of the lake over the long term. Improve the aesthetics of the lake and those are kind of passive thino~ and I ~hould just give you thls to make sure that somebody's got something in writing. Should I glve it to you? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. Thank you. Eric Rivkin: Is there any more questions or discussion about the Lake Lucy area? Mayor Chmiel: No, I think you can proceed now. Eric Rivkin: Okay, because I've got a couple other comments here. Trails. I think you've got 3 kind of classifications of trails. You've got a map here that shows a large number of trails following what appears to be mostly highways and byways and throughout Chanhassen. Readlng why you want to favor tralls along streets makes me realize that well you want to keep the cost down of puttlng these trails in but if all these trails are implemented and put in and installed, I think once you step back and look at the whole thing, I think it looks 11ke a lot of sidewalks rather than tralls. I think the purpose of tralls as you have indicated in here is to enjoy the natural amenities of the city and I thlnk that tralls should be, every effort should be made to recognize that putting them wlthin parks or between lot lines so they don't cut across large tracts of land would be preferred over street locations. I think to mltigate the problems that you, the disadvantages that you've indicated here, that you mlght have abutting property conflicts or perceived securlty problems. Additional sidewalk system may be needed and high maintenance. I think those problems can be mitigated pretty easlly. You could join the sidewalk system with the trails. You don't necessarily have to have a trail maybe interconnected throughout the entire clty but at least meet the goals in the, the wording should be indicated here to meet the goals and to stress that they should be withln parks and lot 11nes rather than along streets because of those reasons. High maintenance, I think instead of recommending paving here, woodchlps and gravel, whatever that klnd of maintenance could be low. Trails, if they followed the natural features such as drainageways, I think there are a lot more other natural features you could mention here such as existlng woodland tralls throughout Chanhassen might be consideration. Policies about large lots and the sewer. I appreciate the Planning Commission's efforts to try and get the wording to accommodate the needs and wants of people who have large lots and brand new sewer systems. However, I thlnk there mlght have been some small point overlooked and for your consideration. It says that at such time as on site systems begin to fall the city will work wlth residents to lnsta11 utilities to these subdivisions in a coordinated manner. I don't have any problem with that but there are a lot of lots, particularly around the Lake Lucy area that have very steep slopes, wetlands and so forth that make it impossible to subdivide these 2 1/2 acre or larger properties and I thlnk we need the right to use the alternate site that was designated, required by the city when we built those homes and I think some consideration should be glven that we maintain that right. Maybe attach a restriction onto it such as if they perc out for lnstance because sometimes there may have been overgrowth over the next 20 years on these alternate sites and there may be need to have another one located or if there was activlty on these sites they could be, should be perced out at least tested to make sure that they're still viable for a drainfield slte. I guess that's all I have. 15 City Council Meeting - 3anuary ?, 1991 Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you, Anyone else? Bill Miller: Good evening Hr. Mayor, members of the City Council. My name is Bill Miller and I live at 8121 Pinewood Circle in Chanhassen. I'd like to make a few comments regarding the comprehensive plan and the Planning Commission efforts in that regard. Then a few other comments regarding something more specific I have an interest in. I think certainly the members of the Planning Commission need to be thanked for their effort. I can appreciate the fact that they've worked many hours and had some very difficult and challenging and frustrating $itL~ations to deal with. I've only participated in about 5~ of that but it was very frustrating and they had a lot more. But there's something about the Planning Commission I wanted to bring up which is the issue of diversity. I don't even know where the members of the Planning Commission live or what [heir backgrounds are but Chanhassen is a pretty large community and there are areas of growth, such as where I live, that don't always feel represented on the Planning Commission which has been an instrumental part of what you see here. I think we'd like to be certain that all members, whether they live in one certain area or an outlying area have some representation in the process. As I watched tile Planning Commission go through this comprehensive planning effort one thing I noticed, there seemed to be a, not just in the Planning Commission's comprehensive plan but also in other things brough{ up before the Planning Commission. Despite all these difficult issues and challenges, there seemed to be very commonly a unanimity of opinion with regard to the issues at hand and I found that amazing given the difficulty and the complexity of the tasks and I think perhaps one of the reasons there is that maybe there isn't enough diversity and enough difference in the members there. I would hope that perhaps that might be looked at sometime just to make sure that everyone is getting some people from different areas have some representation on that. Another thing I noticed in the planning process uae that several of the flash points in the planning process and in the comprehensive plan were difficulties that were created by poor planning in the past and past decisions that I have been told they wish they had never made or people wish they had never made such as large lots vas one and sewage problems now because of those large lots, etc.. Timberuood and Sunridge Court. And it's not just landowners and speculators that use this plan as a guide but residents do also. Residents move in and if the plan has been perhaps for large lots are allowed. People move in. Buy a home and then find that well, ue wish we'd never done that and because we wish we'd never done that, now we're going to change everything else around you because you're really a problem and you're a mistake. So the residents come to be adversely affected by the poor planning so I hope that everyone here tonight takes it, I know you are, to realize that it's important that we get it right I think so that people such as myself don't end up feeling perhaps mistreated to some extent. The final thing regarding the planning process I wanted to say was during this period, myself and several residents some of which spoke tonight, have participated a fair amount over the last few months at some of these meetings in the discussions of this plan and there have been several changes back and forth in various places. In October there was a meeting held where the changes were discussed and then the plan vas discussed and the Planning Commission received a lot of praise for the certain changes and what not and at the end of that meeting I felt a little bit betrayed because a member of the Planning Commission stated that yeah, we've made some changes here but you know, we wish we hadn't made them so those of you who think these changes are going to hold, don't think that. You know, things are going 16 City Council Meeting - January 7, 1991 to change. And in my opinion that just totally throws the whole idea of planning out the window number one. Number two, I feel a little bit deceived and distressed by the fact that we've made these changes but we're telling you right now that we're doing this for some reason but somewhere down the road you can expect them to be changed. That bothers me a fair amount. Those are my comments regarding the planning process. The final thing is regarding some of the comments that were made to the area of land around the corner of Galpin and TH 5. Myself and many of the residents surrounding that area believe that it is not inevitable that industrial, commercial land has to string TH 5 from one end to the other nor does it have to string TH 212 to the other. Nor does the fact that there's some industrial, purple patches on the map mean that right next to it has to be more purple patches in the same sense that we don't believe that just because there's yellow has to have yellow right next to it. We would prefer that Chanhassen maintain a little bit more residential and more of a country atmosphere. A little more aesthetic and that a little bit more concern ' be given to the affect on the residents and things such as sight, sound and odor pollution on those res/dents if all property near residential land is turned into industrial property. The residents that are affected by some of these changes oppose things such as some certain parts of industrial and commercial land. Primarily the things that I've heard when people have stood up here and talked about them have been emotional things related to lifestyle and the way they want to live and why they live in Chanhassen. It's rarely what the value of my land's going to do. On the other hand, there are landowners and other speculators who have bought up pieces of land, probably at pretty good prices, who want to make a lot of money on it and therefore they're arguing the other side and I hope that people will consider that most of these people don't live in Chanhassen nor do they probably care about Chanhassen very much. They want zoning changes which many of which will be at the detriment of residents of this city so they can make some money. I've got nothing against making money but I have something against making money when it's going to hurt someone else. Finally, regarding the intersection of Galpin and TH 5 where we talked about the commercial zone. There were many people that got up at the meeting that discussed that issue and those who live around there right now all felt that we'd rather see a strong downtown. Given that we were told that we probably should expect Highway 41 and 5 to be also a commercial area, we'd prefer that that piece of land also be residential to try to maintain some continuity of residential through that area. Rather than have commercial property at that corner, we all felt that it doesn't bother us one bit to have to drive an extra mile or two for a video or a can of pop and we'd just as soon keep it that way. Thank you very much. Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else? Anyone else? If not, I would ask for a motion that we ciose the public portion of the meeting. Council#oman Oimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to close the pubZic portion of the meeting. ~ll voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Mayor Chmiel: Thomas, you look like you're getting pulled together. Councilman Workman: I knew you were going to ask me that so that's why. I have a cold again. I'm reminded of when I was talking to a new councilmember about how important it was at this juncture to be on the City Council, Planning Commission also, and how important these decisions are. I can tell by all the 17 City Council Meeting-- January 7, 1991 comments and everything I've read and watched and done, that is true. Eric Rivkin brings up, poked a couple of sleeping tigers tonight. Lake Lucy public access J. ssue. Lake plan. That was a lot of fun in the past couple of years and then sidewalks, of all things which we've had an awful lot of fun. Late nights right here talking about that stuff, and so I've got a lot of opinions about each individual thing and I will not take time to answer each of them but maybe I should suggest to the Mayor if we shouldn't handle it the way the Planning Commission did and discuss individual issues and then have those issues, each issue talked about and then move onto another issue or do you want to get my idea... Mayor Chmiel: Well I think Tom what I'd like to see it really boil down to, is get the input from Council. There were a lot of good comments brought forth this evening and at least in my opinion, I don't think ue should come up with a conclusion this evening. I feel some of those and all the things that were brought up tonight be addressed by staff. But yet I think ue should have Council input so we know or staff knows at least where we're coming from and then move in that particular direction. Councilman Workman: Well really we didn't have a whole lot of speakers in relationship to the amount the Planning Commission had so they took the zing out of a lot of this I think. I think I was just talking to a member of the Planning Commission about how dry their meetings are and uhat a bunch of stuffed shirts they are and everything else but what a great job they really do for us. Whether that's because they're lacking in diversity, I don't know. I think they would argue that and say they're all pretty individualistic and get them in a room separately and I think you'd find that out pretty quickly. So I'm going to address it, number one some points that I had and then some of the quick things that the people who stood up had. I'm concerned, when I look at an overall map like this. When we sit here now and when we make decisions such as in the previous two years and ue realize that the plan can never be perfect. Things change and things change plans so they can't be perfect so ue do the best ue can. We try to lay it all out and make it look 'the best we can. When I see large areas like 1995 study area up against areas that are potentially being designated, ~ get very worried that the Council in 1996 and 1995 is going to have to wrestle with this concept of, we're going to have homes north of the Mills Fleet Farm site. They're going to build. They're going to get it going in the next 5 years presumably and then they're going to be told, much the way Timberwood, that now we're going to look at a Mills Fleet Farm. It seems to me the p£cture should be painted a little bit clearer on that area because we're kind of leaving things in limbo much the uay there have been some complaints that that's the way it is now. That doesn't make it poor planning. I think there was a reason and I think I understand the reason why ue want to leave that but it may be a decision that we should be making so that we can avoid before those people move in, they know. I think Timberwood is a good example, and that didn't have everything to do with us. It had to do with Met Council. That had to do with the Interceptor. That had to do with everything. That had to do with the farmer who wanted to get out of town and make some money. So we can only restrict and do things that are within our power. I'd like to address the school site very quickly. We did get together' with the school district. We talked about what we could do to obtain school sites for possibly a middle school or intermediate school. I like the idea. The parcel north of Timberuood was selected. My questions earlier this evening to the City Manager were can we 18 City Council Heeting - January 7, 1991 obtain that? Do we have the money? Can we make it happen because if we can't, why tie it up. He tells me we can. I think it's a good idea. I'm getting mixed signals from the school district that maybe they're not ready to do it and they're not so sure when they're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure what's driving that but I think we need to preserve with all this property opening up and potential houses and increased population, we need to be prepared and I don't think we're doing it any too early. I'm not in favor of leaving the other part of that parcel to industrial but rather for more of a buffer. That has been one of the biggest issues. I think that's getting a little too close to that caliber of a housing development but I do however think and hope that neighborhood thinks a school is somewhat appropriate with some open spaces and some ballfields, etc. that we'd probably use in that area. One of the very simplest of criteria I used when looking at all of this, and I talked to a fellow HRA member tonight and he concurred. How do you make these decisions? I guess I ranked them in this fashion. Number one, what's good for the city as a whole. What's good for the homeowners near there. And what is good for the property owner. Carl Marx might like that, but that is why we were elected I believe to make a decision based on everybody. Not my neck of the woods or anybody else's neck of the woods but look at the whole picture and with that, in our discussion I asked him what is long term? We've put so much money and effort into our downtown to make it the downtown that we want, that we shouldn't allow strip malls or anything anywhere else. I don't prefer strip malls, and I'm speaking specifically to the Galpin/TH 5 northeast corner over there. In that situation, and you take the criteria, what's good for the city. Maybe the city doesn't matter if a strip mall's there. Secondly, what's good for the homeowners. They probably don't care to see that there. Number 3, what is the property owner's speculating and what do they want. I think it creates a dilemma and I don't know that I want to get into whether or not that parcel can be used any specific way because I think the zoning can be changed. But I do remember when we had the north 5 and south 5 meetings and there were specific discussion on not leaving Timberwood an island or rather bringing a finger of residential down there. However, I don't believe people want to live on TH 5 and so while we've got to mix it all up, and we don't want it all industrial or strip malls, I'm very leery that we're going to be able to get people to build housing here unless somebody can come up with a specific concept for apartment complexes or something else and presumably those people don't care if they live next to a highway or not. We're not going to see quarter million dollar houses on this highway and so somehow we have got, I still don't believe that we've come to that balance and so why we're trying to protect an existing development which to me is a high priority, we're still not making the decision realistically as to how these corners can be used. And economically. Maybe that statement leaves more confusion. As an HRA member myself, I think we do however need to maintain our commitment to the downtown area. I think we spend too much money and we're going to continue to do so in trying to keep it all down there and I don't think there's any turning back on that. Are there commercial retail uses that do not belong in downtown that should be allowed on TH 5? Is a car dealership what we want on TH 5? Is it what we want on the one downtown? Probably not. But my tendency is to lean towards leaving it downtown and allowing for the decision perhaps to have the zoning a little bit later. That's about all of my comments right now. If we're not going to make a decision tonight, then if we are going to make a decision, then I'd probably have some more. City Coul,cil He~;f. ing -- January 7:1991 Mayor ChmieI: Oick? Councilman Wing: Well I'm terribly new and I'm going to be very honest about that, and aft~.r listening to Tom now I'm further confused because as everybody talks here, there's ii,st ,,ore. issues coming up and more questions about this plait. Where I ,,ay be dangerous is that my wife's a senior in architecture and right r~ow she's doing urban planning and her class presently redesigning 494 strip. It's generally felt that that was kind of a mistake. Over developed and not very attractive and so her class is redoing Bloomington and Richfield to see if it couldn't have been done better'. So to quote my great grandfather, if I may. You never hurt a piece of land letting it sit another year but woe be to the person that rushes because then it's gone forever. .So I certainly support a comprehe~sive plan and I would really like [o see it get into effect. I think there's an absolute need here in Chanhassen. I'm very appreciative and support the time and the studying and planning that the Planning Commission put into this. It wouldn't be done otherwise. I think they're a talented group of people and I think they are diversified. I think they're very honest. I think they're very open. I think they're very concerned about the city at large so the diversity comment I felt very comfortable that that had been met. I don't want to delay implementation but also being brand new I'd feel terrible if I made a decision that affected the city and future generations in the long term by rushi~g such a decision. I guess I really Bon am going to need some time to revJ. ew and just digest the comments from tonight so I'm somewhat pleased to hear that maybe you're thinking about not making a decision tonight and allowing, especially someone as new as I am, to really get serious about looking into what's happening. But more important I see a real need for the City Council to, and I don't mean just get it's act together because I can't say they haven't. hsa member of the City Council Z see a real need for us to set some concrete goals and directions that along with this comprehensive plan that would help imp].ement it ~n a very successful way. Kind of our own vision in the long term. Whether TH 5 is commercial or residential, I can't define that right nov but Z could certainly see that TI4 5 could be developed commercially all the way out and still be very attractive with enough green space and setbacks and the same with residential. I live on TH 7. gery attractive. ~ll residential. Heavy traffic. I don't go along with the noise and the pollution complaints because as I drive through the city, I just see so much heavy residential going on in existing highways that residential certainly could be maintained. ~gain it would involve setbacks and greenways and berms and protection for tile homes so I guess I see a real need for orderly development. ~nd we've discussed the study area and I don't fully understand why that wasn't given a designation. .T. realize all the if's and bur's that were mentioned tonight but as I listened, to zone that commercial is maybe putting the cart before the horse. We haven't even settled the downtown area yet. The downtown isn't intact and to move then into a major rezoning that far vest does bother me. I guess I really favor seeing that study area be set in a moratorium for the near future anyway and get the rest of the city intact before we move out to that particular area. The use of that land I wouldn't commer~t on but Z do know that that particular piece should b~; in an orderly development and to zone it in the next year' or so I think would be out of order prior to getting the downtown established. I think Z'm sensitive to the landowner's rights and the developer's rights but my responsibility here on the Council is certainly to the City and the use of it's ].and but what really troubles me is the word long term. I think that's my only commer~ts. Thank you. 2O City Council Meeting - January 7, 1991 Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Ursula? Councilwoman Oimler: Thank you. I guess I feel rather overwhelmed with all the readlng that we've had to do and all the maps we've had to look at and all the. letters we've had to read and to put it all together, but I'm going to try to make an attempt at lt. I guess my baslc feellng ls that yes, we do need a comprehensive plan. I'm not even sure, I think it maybe is mandated by the State is it not? Yeah. So we do have to have one. I do see it as a guide and not something that is intended to be set in concrete. I don't think there's any body, whether it be a Planning Commission or a Council or many bodies even put together can possibly foresee all of the details that any plan that we set into motlon could result in and therefore there always has to be room for flexibility and change in the future. I want to point out an example of a speculative landowner and a homeowner for a long tlme in Chanhassen that have worked together. I'd like to see more of that and I congratulate Mr. Curry and Hr. Gene Quinn for gettlng together and working out what could have been a potential problem. And as I said, I'd like to see that as an example for future when non-residential landowners wlll work with the existing neighborhoods because that is one of my concerns. Whether we agree with that neighborhood being there or not, the fact ls that it is there and those homeowners need to be protected. On the other hand, there are people that come in with very good and reasonable plans that wlll extend our tax base, I'm certainly in favor of that as well because we do need that and so to me seeing a balance there is what is the task of the Counc11. More specifically I guess some of the specific concerns that were addressed here tonight. Mr. Peter Beck representing Mllls Fleet Farm. I would be ready at this polnt to move that we dlrect as a Council, that we dlrect the Planning Commission to start studying that area right now in 1991 as one of their goals for thls year. And that's not to say that they're going to come up with anything prior to 1995 but I think they should start studying that area rather than the one on TH 5, north of TH 5 I mean rather than the one south of TH 5 because the one down there is not really in our hands as far as we don't know when Hwy 212 is going to come. So as one of their goals I'd like to see them start in on that. Then also the gentleman from Eden Prairie. Dennis and I don't remember his last name but as far as his concerns. Paul wrote thls letter and did all of you get a copy of it and happen to read this? I do agree with what's in here and I would be wllllng to go along with that because that leaves the wlndow open for some high office campus to come in. Something that I don't thlnk the residents of Timberwood, if they actually saw a neat plan, would be necessarily adverse to. It might even be nicer looking than hlgh density or medium density residential. As far as Mr. Carlson's concern, Jerome Carlson, I really don't know how to address that. It would seem rather funny to take your sectlon out and leave the rest in so I thlnk we'd have to restudy that whole area if we're going to have a trail there or something but certainly if you only gave the easement for one particular purpose, I think we'd have to respect that. Then also on the other concern that Dale Carlson had was the wording on Page 50 of the recreation. I thlnk we need to take a look at that. We need to make sure that this plan does not at this tlme restrict motorboats because I don't think that was the purpose of this and if we're going to do that, then I think we need to have a public hearing. So we should look at some wording. What I wrote real quickly and it doesn't have to be particularly this. It says that the city should maintain Lake Lucy as a recreational lake suitable for uses that compliment it's natural environment and in the future the City may wish to 21 City Council Hee. til~9 ..-Ja~luary 7, 1991 consider prohibiL.ton of motors on Lake [.uoy but this plan does not intend to do thai: ,'.~t ti]is time. Those are Ifly general feelings. Mayor Chmie]: Ti~ank you. Mike? Councilman Masol~: Speaking of new. You know I've been looking at this plan since before the election and Z continue to be amazed at the amount of time and effort. T'm he;~r.[ng Council talking about delaying adopting this. Paul, as cJ. ty Planner and what not and getting this to the Met Council, how does that ii. ye with yo~t~' feelings o~, ,'tl]. of this? I mean Z'm not putting you on the spot. T'm trying to see how all this fits together here so maybe I am putting you on t he spo [. Paul Krauss: It's certaJ, nly the Council's perogative to digest this and make changes before passing .i.t on. The changes that Z'm hearing discussed tonight, the additional information, Z guess z don't see any of that as radical propositions for changing things. For ex~mpZe the study ~reas were ,z concern. Over the summer in the course of the public hearings, the Planning Commission real[zed that J.t would behoove the clty to have a planning effort underway for those study areas as soon as thls effort's wrapped up to get into that so that people, that wouldn't imply bringing it into the HUSA 11ne right away but at least people movii~g lnto the area would know what the Clty's long range intent W&G. OLtl' plan, Ottr existing 1980 plan and this plan sort of draw the line at the MUSA line. ~t's very explicJ, t as to what's happening inside but outside is somewhat of a mystery. That's a valid comment and it was something that the Planning ConlnliSSJ. on has, in discussing their goals for 1991 has on there and it certain].y wottJ, d be ~ppropri~te and consistent with th,at to request the Planning Commission '[o do that if you want oil a tlmefranle that fits the Counc11. Tn terms of the de.).ay itself, there's no magic d~,te to get it to the Metro 6ouncil. Z guess you sort of chomp at the bit having been involved with this for such a long tlme that you finaJ, ly see the light ~t the end of the tunnel and you'd like. to jump for Jt but also Z should point ottt too that there are a number of indJ. vlduals who oun p¥operties throughout the community who have come to us over the course of the last few years and wanted to do whatever or consider whatever for their property located outside the MUS~ line and we have put them off telling that we don't want the City to deal with piecemeal MUSA line amendments. That we felt the most appropriate way of doing i~ was this large scale effort and having clone that, I guess Z have a desire not to protract that. Additionally, Minnesota is somewhat unique in that we I~ave very limited construction seasons. If a serious enough recession comes, sprlng coming isn't going to make much difference but the Metro Council has a minimum gO day review process. They can request extensions. If ue got thls to the Metro Council in 3anlzary, conce.i, veably, optimistically, this could be in place by Hay which would aJlow sonle people to take actions on some property before the end of the year. T_f we bring thls up at another' Council meeting in January, that's not going to affect that really one way or tile other. Councilman Mason; A couple of quick comments. A lot of concern has been voiced about what's going on out on TH 5 and Z'm sensing some of the Council feels that concern too. Maybe tl~nL is something that needs to be discussed a little further. Z th~)-ik Z'm, even with all the reading T've been doing and studying T.'ve been doing, quite honestly I'm more Ln the position to listen and ask 22 City Council Meeting - January 7, 1991 questions right nov than I am to state some personal feelings so at this point I'm 9oing to quit there. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you Mike. Councilman Workman: Don? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah Tom. Councilman Workman: Well I think Highway 5 is the issue on this thing and maybe I feel, maybe I'm feeling what the rest of the Council's feeling in that I drive down that thing rather frequently and so you kind of try and imagine in your mind how that's going to look and what are my kids going to say. Did you do that dad? And you know, we're trying to lay out the plan but the plan isn't cast in concrete or anything and ue can do some moving around and some changing so maybe we're building this up to be too much. I'm asking you to answer that maybe. I'll pose it as a question. Are we building this up to be too much if in fact we can modify it down the road if we see that we maybe have taken the wrong course here? Paul Krauss: I don't want to sound like I'm obscuring the issue but yeah, you certainly do have the ability to modify this over time to deal with situations that may arise. We're dealing, you know the Metro Council asks you to deal in a 10 year time horizon and then they even carry it an extra 5 years beyond that in terms of land allocations. 15 years is an awfully long time. I mean all you've got to do is look back 15 years ago and see the changes that have occurred. I think it's reasonable to think that the changes that would occur in the next 15 years wouldn't be of such a magnitude as happened the last 15 years. It would be more incremental but the plan itself is a guide. It's a guide that's out there for the public to buy into. It's a guide that's out there for you to buy into and for the Metro Council and for everybody else. The land planning act provides a mechanism whereby you can change that from time to time. It requires a public process to do that of course but you can do that and I would never want to see a Council back themselves into a corner where you were stuck with something that could not be changed and that's certainly not the case. On the other hand, it's a document that's received a lot-of public scrutiny. A lot of people have bought into it and if somebody truly has a better idea, the planning process is kind of intended to place it in their court. They're going to have to demonstrate that it's a better idea. You know we don't have to demonstrate that. I think that puts the responsibility where it lies and you don't change it lightly. If somebody comes along and requests a rezoning that's inconsistent with the plan, you're going to have to change the plan. The Metro Council probably won't, if we get this approved generally as it's outlined right now, most of the changes that somebody could come along and request from you in the future are not going to be major guide plan amendments and typically the Metro Council doesn't get intensively involved in minor plan amendments so you do have the latitude to look at that in the future. Councilman Workman: I certainly don't have, I mean let's make some decisions tonight so that next week we can use them as a base point for change. I don't mean that. It used to look like a really long strip from CE 17 to TH 41. It's looking littler and littler and those decisions are all kind of grinding each other. I understand Mills Fleet Farm to be a very nice outfit. I don't like 23 Cj.i'y £ounci]. Heeting -.]anu~.Lry ?, 1991 what they ]ook llke al,d Z don't thlnk anybody, Z haven't heard really anybody from chanl~assen say bevy, Z really like what they look like. Let's put one I've heard '.an awful lot of people from westerly communities say boy, wouldn't it be n£ce if you guys got a Fleet Farm. Well, th~nk you but you know so Z don't know. It'~; all. M~yor £hmiel: Yeah, I think I know what you're saying Tom. When you look at Hil.l_s F.l. eet F:~rm, ~s you're mentioning, there's some pluses for the community I thlnk. Blgger draw. Help the business people withln the community. Probably totst number of 200.-300 more new people wilhin the city possibility because that's.: what they employ. The slze of bullding that they have and I went through a c~lcu.l, atiorl real q~tick, probabJ, y about a $250,000.00 tax base which I think ali. t'h~. residential customers wlthln the community want to see thelr taxes go down ratl~er th,'~n going up ,~nd that's what I see too as far ,~ some of these other ~reas. To not have industrial witl~in our community would be a real burden on the resi(lentia], people within the community taxuise and you just can't look a[ Jt from that aspect. We have to look at what's good for the city. You brought [hat poi. tit up and Z agree. That's something that we really have to look ;~t. What's the best location. Where things should be and why they should be ,-~nd the kind~ of services we ca~ provide for the community. Z guess I feel that one of the reasserts tl~t I brought it up at first is the mere fact that being we've had as much discussion again this evening, .T.'d like to get some responses back before I come up with a conclusion. I'm not one for putting things off. ~ don't want to put this off much further because I think we're going to get into the construction and building phase and Hay would be a good timeframe. I think maybe by the end of this month we can possibly still look at that and come up with a conclusion. ~. l. ook at just about everybody's questions and I think Ursul,z covered Jt quite we].l and probably stole some of my thunder but that's okay. But as Paul sald, you know we're looking at approximately 2,780 acres and of that maybe we c,zn get 1,571 :~cres. From there Z also see that Met Council wil~ have that ch~ncu oF 'r-evlewal for that 90 days. I thlnk once they have looked at how our people h~ve worked ~t ~his to develop what they've got, I'm sure th~:y're 9olng to .see [hat there's a lot of good ~udgment taken 1rite cons£deFa~Lon. Out T_ thlnk that strip malls, I agree with. Z'm not too fond of s~rlp nialls from one polnt to another. I thlnk what we have to do, and as Tom indic,.~ted, being on ti~e HRA as well., Z w~nt to see the downtown succeed and grow because ] really want to have truly a downtown Chanhassen. Z want it to be done in :z quali~y that everybody's happy wlth and Z think we've gone that particular d.irectlon at thls particular time. The diversity wlth the Plannlng Commission that Bill M.i..1.1er mentioned, T see them being as diverse as they can possibly be by coverlng what they did w.i. t hln all the particular mode of that comprehensive plan ~nd each of them ].ocated in different areas of the community. We have two to the northern portlon, one in the northwest and the other in the northeast. ~e ha~,e ,'~ few within the mai~ area of the city. We have them to the south and lT. th.ink from seeing each of them and knowlng the ciLy as they do, just going out ,'Lnd reviewing every specific plan that has come in, they know the community well. .T. guess there's many different thlngs that we st111 ~ think are looking at but there's just. been ~ tremendous ~mount of study put in this. Time, effort ~s Z mentioned before and I just feel that we should probably just table thls at tl~is particular tEmo and come up with those conclusions ~nd the answers to the questions that we've had today and get those back to the Council as soon as we can Lo [laVe another meeting. So wi~h that ~ guess I'd just as soon stop cl',at tering. City Council Meeting - January ?, 1991 Councilwoman Oimler: The one thing that we might act upon is, not adopt the whole plan but could we act upon the moving of the study area? For the Planning Commission to start studying that 1995 study area north of TH 5? Mayor Chmiel: Right. That I believe should be done this year and I think they're in full agreement with that. That they're already looking at that. Councilwoman Oimler: Shall we move that now or do you want to wait? Councilman Workman: Are we talking about, we're not talking about including that in the MUSA? Councilwoman Dimler: No. Just that they start their studying. Mayor Chmiel: No, no. That they start reviewing that now. Councilwoman Dimler: At the last meeting they asked us for some, if we had anything that we wanted them to put into their goals and that's just one of the things. Councilman Workman: You didn't think they were serious did you? Councilwoman Oimler: I took them at their word. Councilman Workman: But I guess I'm not sure exactly what that would do then. Are we talking about designating this as something other than ag? Councilwoman Dimler: That's up to them to start studying. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, it's for them to look and see. Councilwoman Dimler: I guess there's concern that they don't wait until 1995 to start studying this. Steve Emmings: If it would help, we did at our last meeting discuss our goals for this year and made a list of them that is going to be forwarded to the Council for comment. The 1995 study area that's on the corner of TH 5 and TH 41 was designated as one of the items that should be looked at this year. We thought it would perhaps be appropriate to take it up once the Met Council has approved our plan so we know exactly whether it flies. That's part of our comprehensive plan. We know that by the middle of the year, then we should get after it specifically... Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, so you're saying that you already have it as one of your goals to do that? Steve Emmings: And that's going to be forwarded to you for your comments to arrange a priority for us. Councilwoman Oimler: I guess we don't need a motion on that then. Mayor Chmiel: No. What I'd like to do is see if I can get a motion with what I had indicated previously to have Paul revlew each of those specific questions. 25 City Council Moetil~g --..lanL~ar>' 7, 19~1 Bring it back to Council for- the later' part of this month. councilman Workma~l: This wouldn't be discussed at our next regular meeting? It wou.ld be a separate meeting? Are we telling everybody in the room to come back? Mayor' Chmiel: Well we can do it one of two ways. Either at the, and I just looked .'-tt Lhe agenda for- th~; 14th. If everybody does their homework on the consent agenda, we might be able to get it in there. eon Ashuorth: .Staff wouldn't be in a position to respond by that time. Mayor' Chmiel: Well that would be awfully fast. Maybe by the 28th Council mee. f. ing. Councilman Workman: I guess my questions are, and with Paul and I know there's some minor things and maybe we spent a little extra time. I guess I'm thinking on the ]a'rger scale of, really are we looking at that much of a modification from wh,.z~ the Plan~ir, g Commission proposed? hnd if we aren't, can ue narrow it down to whatever exactly it Js and maybe ue can take care of it. ~ don't know that we're that far off but that's uh~t I'm trying [o get that feeling. ~e all haven't :-;pecifJcaJ. ly talked about ullat the exact rubs are and Z keep thinking aboL[t 13 acre parcel on the northeast corne~' of TH 5 and Galpin. ~hat are we going to ~1o with that? School site. Lur, dgren Brothers. Mills. Trail easements. ~ do]~'~ know. Maybe the list's getting too long and maybe that's ul,y we should table it but are we that far away I guess? ~re ue that? Mayor' chmie].: Yeah, I think we really are Tom and that's why I want to get the answers back From P~.~ul. It's not going to make that much of a difference in the timeframe if we car, get it still, done and accomplished this month. Council. man Workman: I'm just thinklng so that people don't have to keep coming back. Mayor Chmiel: Well I thlnk they're always welcome to. In fact I enjoy seeing the council room full rather than talking to ourselves. Participation is really neat but anyway, no I really do. You can make any klnd of motlon you'd like but ~ thirlk tha~ we should. Counci]man Workman: Well I'll make the motion to table this for further review based on go slow an~l s~eady. Councilman Wing: Do we have a timeframe to that? Mayor Chmicl: Well I think we're looking at the 20th of this month. Councilman Workman: Will i'L be open to debate? Mayor Chmie].: Sure. I don't know why not. I always try to keep an open meeting to anybody who'd 11ks to say anything, they have that opportunity. CottncJlWOl0all Oim.l. er: Is that correct, we're asking Paul to address just the concerns that were mentioned here tonight? 26 City Council Meeting - January 7, 1991 Mayor Chmiel: Just the ones this evening. Jim Curry: The public hearing part though, that's closed for good? Is that right? You don't reopen that at the next meeting or do you? Mayor Chmiel: Well we're tabling the entirity of the thing right now. This is sort of, this is not really a public hearing. The public hearing has already been held at the Planning Commission level. This is just response from the residents from what's happening now. Is there a second? Counciluoman Dialer: Second. Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to table action on the Comprehensive Plan until January 28, 1991 for further staff review. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Steve Emmings: I'd like to just say. I don't plan to give my plaque back. I'd like to say to the extent that there's praise or blame to be handed out for the plan, these two gentlemen up here had the laboring...all the way through the project. Mayor Chaiel: Good, thank you. I noticed that one more member of the Planning Commission has come in. Even though you're a little late, I'll tell you uhat I said to them afteruards but I'd like to present this to you Brian. It's the Maple Leaf Auard. $o uith that I'd ask for a motion for adjournment. Councilaoman Dimler moved, Councilman ~orkman seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9=15 p.m.. Submitted by Don Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 27