1989 10 02CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
SPH2IAL MEETING
OCTOBER 2, 1989
Mayor Ch~iel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
~IL M~2~BERS PRESENT: Mayor C2~iel, Councilman Boyt, Councilman Workman,
Councilwuman Dimler and councilman Johnson
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Pa[ti Krauss, Dave Hempel, Todd (~erhardt and Jim
Chaffee
LAND SALE AGRa, SOUTHWEST CORNER OF HIGH, kY 41 AND WEST 82ND STREET, GLEN
PAULS.
Mayor Chniel: We were to have some additional discussions this past week. Have
those taken place?
Co~F~il~x,an Dimler: Yes.
Mayor Ch~iel: Who'd like to update me?
Don Ashworth: Tc~ or Todd or Urs%lla?
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I can. I'm surprised. I guess I don't know, this
~as j~mt handed to me. I don't know what the new proposal is that we met was, I
believe it was Wednesday or was it Thursday in Chaska. Chaska City Hall with
Jake Pokorney and at that point Mr. Glen Pauls was there and he indicated to
Todd, myself and To~ that the offer had been withdrawn.
Mayor Ch~iel: The offer has ~n withdrawn?
Councilw~n Dimler: At that point it was, yes. So whatever is here before us
this evening is new info~matio~ to us.
councilman Workman: The offer had been withdrawn on Monday night he stated at
the Council meeting.
Don Ashworth: He came in late today. Handed me what I gave you. The purchase
agree~m~t and said, the council asked that we suh~it this as a final offer.
So I don't know what that means. That's all he had said to me.
Councilwoman Dimler: After our last mccting it was my understanding that the
offer was withdrawn and there ~s nothing cc~ing forth and we did not ask for
another offer that I recall.
Co,~cilnmn Boyt: Can't we clear this up? Mr. Pauls is standing right here.
Glen Pa, tls: Glen Pauls, Nordic Track. I guess they asked me at Chaska to put
one more offer. I don't know, I forget if we talked about that when you w~re
there or after you gu~s left but they wanted me to basically try to get. I
guess Chaska wants it resolved. They would like it resolved I should say and
they wanted ~m to put in one offer being that we are interested. Obviously
we're interested in getting the land but we just weren't interested at that
City Council Meeting - October 2, 1989
price so just to get sc~thing done tonight we thought we'd put in one ~ore
offer just to see where it goes.
Council~n Boyt: What is the offer?
Glen Pauls: I think you have copies.
CounciL, mn Boyt: Maybe you could explain it.
Glen Pauls: It's $60,000.00 offer I guess.
Council~mn Boyt: Why the difference?
Glen Pauls: Frc~ the $100,000.007
Counci l~mn Boyt: Yes.
Glen Pauls: Like I explained to the 3 that were, I gt~ss you weren't there, at
the ~=eting. We went over it. We decided the $100,000.00 was way more than we
really wanted to pay. I guess I should clarify, the way the $100,000.00 worked
out was we never actually offered the full $100,000.00. Chaska was offering
$15,000.00. We were offering $85,000.00 and they were offering $15,000.00 to
make it ~to so the highest we ever went personally, NordicTrack ever went was
$85,000.00. Where we're at now is we thought that was way too ~ch. We decided
not to. I should say we decided to withdraw the offer last Friday. We had to
give you a chance obviously to take it because we had offered it but after that
we just decided it wasn't worth that. We are willing to go the $60,000.00 just
because of the convenience of the whole operation. It would be kind of a ~ss
in front of there but we've had scm~ discussions about roads and the whole thing
but basically this is just kind of a last attempt type deal. Chaska really
wanted us to try and resolve it.
Council~,mn Boyt: How much of this $65,000.00 or whatever is money from Chaska?
Glen Pauls: The $60,000.00 offer is money, that's completely from us now.
That's just what we would offer. I don't know, did Don Ashworth call you Todd
today?
Todd Gerhardt: I talked to Dave Pokorney today and there still would be an
additional $15,000.00 added to the $60,000.00 offer. If I could clarify what
the $15,000.00 would be for would be for roadway easem~nts for the upgrading of
82nd Street is what Chaska's interest in this property would be.
Cot~ncik-mn Boyt: Before on Monday it seemed to~m that you mentioned or a week
ago, that this was going to be in a tax incr~nent district? Is that correct?
Todd Gerhardt: It's in an economic develolm~nt district in the Chaska city
boundaries.
Co,~ci~mn Boyt: How is that different?
Todd Gerhardt: Econo, mic develolmtent? It is a tax increm~ent district.
Council~mn Johnson: This acreage isn't?
City Council Meeting - October 2~ 1989
Todd Gerhardt: Not ours~ no 2
Glen Pauls: The piece behind it ~as.
Co~ncilman Johnson: The acreage behind is?
Councilman Boyt: So if I understand it correctly, then of couxse our piece
can't be in their tax increment district but because it's not in the tax
increment district, then it's really a different kind of financial cc~ni~t
than the development .~x)u're makin~ on ~ur o~ property.. Is that right? If
your c~rent property is in a tax increment district, then the money you are
spending to improve that is, I ass~,e you have a Housing and Redevel. opment
;~lthority that's ~eally handling that expendit~=e. Isn't that cor.~ect?
:
Todd Gerhardt: ~*ne roadway improvements, the monies to pay for those roadway
improv~_nts w~uld be assessed back against the benefitting prope~ties but those
dollars can't be expended outside the district so s(x~ehow they. ~x)uld have to put
a boundary outside that roadway so they could spend those monies on that
roadway. I haven't seen their maps to show where their district boundaries are
Bill so I can't...
Councilman Boyt: Well ~asn't there discussion a w~ek ago that basically Chaska
w~uld be looking to annex this piece of property once the City had sold it?
Todd Gerhardt: That is a possibility.
Councilman Boyt: It would create a bit of a difficulty to have part of a
building in Chaska and another part of the building in Chanhassen wouldn't it?
Or maybe not.
Glen Pauls: The parking lot is the only thing that would be affected by. this.
It's j~t a corner of the parking lot that it affects. The only problsm would
be for us is w~ would have to pay taxes to tw~ different cities.
Todd Gerhardt: This would have it's own Parcel Identification Number.
Glen Pauls: I guess from what I heard from Chaska, they didn't really mind that
much if you left it in Chanhassen. It didn't really bother ~ either wy. Is
that what you got out of it? I guess they never said definitely.
Todd Gerhardt: Bill brings up a good concern is that can an economic
develofm~ent district boundary encompass another municipality, go into another
~m~nicipality?
Don Ashworth: I think that Chaska ~uld look to trying to annex the property.
One of the things I did on this, cost benefit sheet in the back.
Councilman Johnson: Ch that's yours?
Don Ashw~rth: That's mine. The Ma.vox shared this d~t with me that they
use at NSP. ~lt I'm gone through s(m~ of the property, tax implications and I've
~de the asstm~stion in here that the parcel would go over to Chaska. In either
case, whethe~ it stayed in Chanhassen or Chaska, tl~ yearly taxes would be
City Council M~eting - October 2, 1989
$288.00 and that was from the Assessor's Office. ~ne benefits, whether Chaska
or Chanhassen, to the County would be an additional $90.00 per year. Frc~ the
school, $264.00 so ~'d see net property tax savings for Chanhassen people of
$354.00 but I think the biggest costs are the costs associated with ~mintaining
82nd Street. If that roadway or if the parcel is in Chaska, Chaska ~ould bec(xne
responsible for ~mintenance of that entire roadway. I'm esti~mting right now
that our cost to ,mintain that half mile is $3,500.00 per year. So all of the
ite~m you see on that right hand side or unde~ annual benefits are all reduced
costs or gain to the City of Chanhassen through this potential transaction.
Councilman Boyt: What does a 3 to 4 sc~lething or other?
Don Ashworth: That represents reduced costs. What I'm saying there is right
now that facility is used for off season storage and according to Mike and
Jerry, we would send 3 to 4 men for 3 days, twice a year, and during that tL-~
fra~m we have 9 trucks so they take sanders off and stored. Plows off and
stored. 5 pick-ups. Plows off, stored. Grader V-plow rem~oved and stored.
That work takes about 3 to 4 days. We do that twice a year.
CounciL.mn Johnson: You still do that in a different place.
Don Ashworth: That's correct but this calculation only takes into account the
additional hour that's taking place out there.
CounciL.mn Johnson: The additional hour to drive out there?
Don Ashworth: The additional ti~m required to go out there.
Mayor Cb~iel: lk'ive there and drive back?
Don Ashworth: Right.
Councilman Boyt: If we take 4 people and we send them down there for 6 days, it
costs us $3,000.00?
Co~n%ciL.~n Johnson: For 24 ~n hours?
Don Ashworth: Twice a year.
CounciL.mn Johnson: 3 days and you're saying it's only 1 hour extra per man.
Mayor C~iel: 3 or 4 men. What do they ~mke per hour?
Don Ashwo~th: O~y.
CounciL.mn Johnson: I would like a job. If for 24 ~mn hours you spend
$3,000.00, I'd lm~t ~ application in. That's a little over $6,000.00 a week.
Co~mcilw0~mn Dirtier: Don, I'll do it.
Mayor C~[iel: I think what you did was take the, taking them off the ec~]ilm~nt
and putting th~m~ back on which probably should not have been in there.
Don Ashworth: t~]t this was from.
City Oo,~cil Meeting - October 2, 1989
Mayor C~mliel: Whether they would be there or would have it done at public
Council~mn Johnson: If it's 24 n~%n da~us.
Don Ashworth: Actually what I did was I multiplied-4 x 3 x 2 x 16 which would
be ro~3hly $12.00 to $14.80 per hour and with overhead, ~uou would have an
average of $16.88 per hour. But you're right. That's the total cost regardless
of where you do it.
Oouncilman Johnson: I think you ~ant 8 in there also for 8 hours?
Don Ashworth: (~, you've got an 8 in there for 8 hours a day. So you take 4 x
3x2xSx16.
(buncils~n Johnson: That works out to about $384.88. Instead of $3,088.88 it's
$384.88.
Councilman Workman: I don't know if that's the issue here.
Councilman Johnson: When we got to the bot~, $9,888.88 isn't that much of a
savings. Still trying to figure it out huh?
Councilman Boyt: Well the advantage of that is if your costs of the move are
$8,580.00-$8,688.88 and your benefits are $9,888.88, w~ll then that would tell
you to make the move. But in fact our benefits are not $9,888.88 apparently so
maybe o,= costs do exceed the benfits. Although some of the benefits might be a
little hard to measure. It might be an interestir~3 discussion as to how we
got...
Councilman Johnson: What's this $2,888.88 down here? Regular maintenance.
Maintenance on the building?
Don Ashworth: No. Regular maintenance involves, Mike tells me we have a light
bocci tr~=k out there we use to replace the lights. Anytime you have like one of
the signals is out. ~ estimates that that's 5 times per month. This one here
really should be j~mt the 1 additional hour instead of going frcm the
maintenance building to have to go out to TH 41 and TH 5 so let's try that. 5 x
18 is 58 x 48 is $2,888.88. That n~nber is correct. I still think that other
one is higher. I'm still trying to figure out how to do it because ~u can't
take 3 to 4 men, if they're on the sa~e site and doing that work it's a lot
different than 3 to 4 men for 3 da~us where they have to take and go out to a
remote site to do that same work. I will admit that there is something wrong
with my calculations.
Council~mn Johnson: You see one thing you could do at this garage is have
somebody else be doing. You could drop the truck off so people could go
s(~eplace else. All the mechanic, in his spare time does it or something.
Mayor Ch~iel: 96 hours and 96 hours would make that 192 hours is what you're
saying per year.
City Council Meeting - October 21 1989
Don Ash%~orth: On that one there? Like I said, I got that from Mike and as
we're going through it, I will admit that that should represent the full cost
but on the other side, it should be higher because you are doing it at one site
so ~mybe's it, instead of having the 8 hour days, ~mybe they should be you know,
1 or 2 instead of multiplying them by 8.
Mayor Chmiel: You c(x,e out pretty close. $3,072.00 is what you cc~e up with.
Don Ashworth: Yeah, I think it is and this is at the reduced nu~er of hours.
CounciL"mn Boyt: What we're back to is, so you are saying that it costs
$3,000.00 to go out and take the plows off and lmlt the plows back on those
trucks? That's $3,000.00 above and beyond what it would cost us to do it if
they were in one central location.
DOn Ashworth: That still see~m high but the Mayor just verified it.
Mayor Chmiel: I just ca~m ~%~ with the same total nu~er that he has here.
Council~mn Johnson: But did you say 3 men 8 hours a day?
Mayor Chmiel: 3 m~n 8 hours a day.
Councilw~mmn Dimler: Each one of us probably has an opinion on whether that
number is ridiculous or right.
Councilman Boyt: It's kind of important. If the benefits outweight the costs,
this deal looks attractive in spite of the lower offer. If the benefits don't
outweigh the costs...
Co~nciL"mn Johnson: The costs go up with the lower offer though.
Councilwc~mn Dirtier: It takes 4 sram to go out there and clean that road?
cotn~ciL"mn Boyt: ~nis is a cost of $130,000.00 over 15 years. ~hat's an
$8,600.00 cost.
DOn Ashworth: Another factor there is I've [~ed 15 years. You put a cinder
building up like that, it's going to last longer. At a mini~m~ you'd have a
mortgage for 30 yea~s.
counciL.mn Boyt: Can you produce at sc~ point the information to substantiate
that this is still in the City's best financial interest to accept the existing
offer that's, what is it, $25,000.00 less than the first offer? Are you saying
that econc~ically it's in the City's best interest to accept this offer?
DOn Ashworth: I'm not sure as to the ~)tivation in the withdrawal of the offer.
I think that w~ as a group should, if we're going to consider this, that
potentially myself, the Mayor be authorized to at least get the offer that w~s
on the table frcmi before back.
CounciL.mn Boyt: How are you going to do that? I mean I don't expect you to
reveal all your negotiating strategy if you have one but I mean the gentl~n
w~s here. He said very clearly this is my offer a w~ek ago. He's now cc~ back
City Council Meeting - October 2, 1989
and said, now this is my offer and it doesn't look the same to me2 You can have
my vote if you can get it at $1~,0M0.00. As I said a week ago, this is a deal
w~ ought to make. At $75,000.00 I'm not so sure that that still holds true.
Councilwoman Dimler: Do you want scum disc6ssion on it?
Mayor Chniel: Yes, I'd like to open it up for discussion. One of the things I
keep cc~ing back to is looking at these cost benefits ~isons to what we're
costing per square foot. Talking with different contractors, we're looking at
about a 5,000 square foot building at $23.00 per square foot and that would
provide us with a cinder block building, openezs on the door, insulation in that
building, foundations with grid on slab.
Councilman Johnson: Floor drainage.
Mayor Ch~iel: And floor drainage and a few lights. Cost on that would just be
alone anywhere from $115,000.00 on up. If you take 5,000 square feet times
$23.00 you'll come up with $115,000.00.
Councilwoman Dimler: I have a few comments too.
Mayor (lm~iel: Not yet. Just a second. ~hat I see it is this is still going to
cost the City extra dollars. It's going to cost the entirety of the city sc~e
more money. My concerns are, what we have there presently is servicing us
properly. It would be nice to consolidate to bring it back do~a~ to the public
works area but I don't think we should have to have the City's people pay for
those additional costs. It's just my feelings as I look at it right now.
Co~cil~an Dimler: I guess I would like to add to that, on this agreement
here that's dated 10-2-89 that the buyer wants to have the sale from the Council
by 10-6-89 and the equilm~ent has to be, around the building must be removed by
10-10-89. I just think that's really too soon. We don't have anywhere to go
with it and again the additional costs in getting a facility. Also, the buyer
had indicated at an earlier meeting that if there's any soil contamination, that
Chanhassen would be responsible to clean it up and I'd just hate to see us spend
the whole $60,000.00 on cleaning it up possibly.
Councilman Johnson: Of course if there is any, we're responsible to clean it up
anyway.
Councilw~m~n Dimler: That's true but ~ you've got to, you don't ~amt to
spend the whole $60,000.00.
Councilman Johnson: Don? Do we have an underground tank or anything at that
place? Fuel?
DOn Ashworth: It ~as removed several years ago.
Councilman Johnson: Was it underground or above ground?
Don Ashworth: I know we had an above ground but did we also have an
underground?
Mayor Ch,,iel: Was that one diked with the above ground at the time?
City Co~tncil Meeting - October 2~ 1989
Todd Gerhardt: I think that ~as before. I know there w~s an ~F~erground that
was taken out or is still existing. I just know there was one out there.
Council~n Johnson: One or the other.
Don Ashworth: I'm sure that it was r~loved. The overhead was the gasoline and
the underground I think was for heating. Like kerosene fuel oil.
Todd Gerhardt: I'd like to, if I could, ~mke one comment that Mr. Pokorney had
also info~med ~ that Mr. Pauls is intending to access onto West 82nd Street.
~heir facility with an estimated 100 employees and that would stay a gravel base
as the existing West 82nd is right now. If they were to cc~ in and ~mke the
improv~_nts on that road, MnDot would rec~lire that the buildings be taken out
of there.
CounciL,~n Johnson: Just for right-of-way access?
Todd Gerhardt: Easements, right-of-way and just the amount of grading and
cutting in t_hat area ~mkes that site almost unaccessible.
CounciL-~n Work~n: They can't really improve that road unless we decide. Do
we own both sides of t_hat road?
Don Ashworth: Yes. we own both sides of that section. ~nat's why are
~mintenance costs are higher.
Glen Pauls: Could I add something here?
Mayor Chniel: Yes.
Glen Pauls: With that f~l contamination, Dave Pokorney ~s saying that it's
possible fr(m~ what experience he's had that if we cut out the 14 feet we have to
cut there, if we get the lot, that we could possibly take care of all that on
site without having to have any additional expenses so you might be able to
avoid hauling away contaminated ground. I guess what they do with this ground,
from what he was saying, is just spread it on the surface, we're doing enough
dirt work there that we could do that right on site.
Councilwc~mn Dimler: well that sounds real good but we'd have to have assurance
of that.
Glen Pauls: Yeah, possibly.
CounciL.mn Johnson: Is there any reason to believe there's contamination at
that site?
Don Ashworth: In fact, I would say just the opposite. If there would have been
anything when they dug up the tanks and what not, we would have had it reported
at that point in time.
CounciL.~n Johnson: You don't just spread it out and put grass seed on it.
You've got to go in and plow it a couple tL,~s a year for a while until all the
fuels go out of it. It's not like you j~mt...
City Oouncil Meeting - October 2~ 1989
Glen Pauls: It's got to be turned?
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, it's got to be turned a couple times. You don't just
lay it out.
Councilw~n Dimlex: See and I think they ~nt to have their parking lot there.
Councilman Johnson: They could put it in the back.
Glen Pauls: We could put it in the back part. It would have to be looked into.
Councilman Boyt: As I understand it, the buildirg wa have there is 30 years
old? At least. I thought I read 30 years somewhere.
Don Ashworth: 30 years is the number I used for anortizing the new building.
I'm sure those buildings w~re there at the time the merger, township and city.
Council~mn Boyt: I guess the better question is, what's the life expectancy, of
those buildings for what wa're using ths~ for? When are w~ going to have to
start putting some money in maintaining those buildings? Seriously.
Don Ashworth: That should have been one of the nt~bers that should have gone in
this form. Unfortunately I was unable to get. I passed along to Mike and .he
was going to try to get it fr~m Jerry and Jerry didn't get back. I'm sure that
each year wa have a certain a~ount of vandali~ that occurs out on that site
just because people think there's something in there and it's not wall secured.
On the other side, I'm sure in repairing that vandalic, wa put very. little
money into it. Go back out, they put a lock back on and hinges and a door and
that type of thing.
Councilman Bo.vt: In our other public works building, is there room there to
build a 5,000 square foot expansion?
Don Ashworth: Yes.
Oouncilman Boyt: So wa don't have to buy. land? What wa have to do is provide a
building.
Mayor C~liel: And wa already discussed that last time.
Councilman Boyt: Yeah. I guess I'm just getting clear on these. Has anybody
investigated whether or not Omaska would store our equipment for us?
Councilman Workman: Yes.
Councilman Boyt: What was their answer?
Councilman Workman: Possibly do~n in Chaska.
Councilman Boyt: So they could very easily, I mean it's possible that they
would agree to store that equiB~ent for us?
Todd Gerhardt: For te~oorary.
City Council Meeting - October 2, 1989
CounciL.mn Boyt: Right. Until we get our building built.
Mayor C~liel: Open storage?
Todd Gerhardt: Closed.
Council~mn Boyt: ~ere ses~s to be so~e possibility that maybe the offer could
be expanded. I'd eventually like to see a motion that this be approved
contingent upon ~hoever the negotiating party is representing the City reaching
a better financial agre~ent with Mr. Pauls and the City of Chaska. However
they can w~rk that out between them.
Don Ashworth: Ideally from a City standapoint, since they're going to be doing
~mjor gradin~ associated with TH 41 and 82nd Street, to have the site graded
which ~eans buildings r~loved at that point in time and the grading done by the
City in 1990 allowing us to keep materials on the site through the end of this
year and into 1990 would be the best alternative. As I understand it, that ms
not a very wa~ly received suggestion. Correct?
Glen Pauls: We w~nted to have the lot graded by, well they are grading now...
The idea was to get it graded in the fall so we could get a good compaction...
because we've got bad floors in our building right now. We just don't w~nt to
get into that again. It's not worth it.
Don Ashworth: But I mean this would be a parking area right?
Glen Pauls: That part there yeah. The trouble is, we' re... so what' s cc~ing off
of there is planning to fill other areas. We have to decide now what the
grade's going to be. Do we let it go? We have to leave it a little bit lower
if we don't your lot, you know grade around it. We'd have to go maybe another 6
inches the entire lot higher. We have to kind of come up with a final grade.
Either that or leave a big pit sc~=where. Then if we don't ever get your lot,
we're stuck with a big pit. So that's why we have to decide now. They were
supposed to be grading last w~ek. I don' t know they had some problems.
CounciL.mn Johnson: They're doing something out there. I drove by this
evening.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion?
Councilman Work, mn: I don't know. I'm a little nervous about this. We net
last week for really no reason. Only to find out that, I don't know. I suspect
t_hat from the m~eting we had last week that even if we had approved what we
approved last w~ek, w~ probably w~uldn't have had $100,000.00 either. This
purchase agreement here says so~thing about $60,000.00. It doesn't say
anything about Chaska's $15,000.00. If I was nervous about selling it at
$100,000.00, I sure am now at $60,000.00. I think I was looking at so~ of
these costs of driving out there. Those are so~e hidden costs that I don't know
that we're going to be able to recognize too well. I don't know. Mr. Pauls
stated at his meeting that he wouldn't mind this thing sitting in front of his 4
million dollar project and I think it's going to be pretty close to the front
door of it and he didn't mind if his couple hundred ~ployees were using a
gravel road and then proceeded to reduce his offer by $25,000.00. I don't know.
10
City Council ~eting - October 2~ 1989
I think we're going to have a building that's going to be expensive no matter
which way you look at it and w~'re goi~3 to have to c~me up with an awful lot of
money to put one up. I know in these frugal times what the people of Chanhassen
are telling ~. Possibly increased taxes with school referendums, etc. and
everything else holding the line and everything else, I do not feel ~ortable.
Mayor Ch~iel: Jay?
Councilman Johnson: Can I just say ditto?
councilman Boyt: So what ,~x)u're saying is, if the offer was at $10M,MOM.00, if
it was back to that, that for $15,000.00 you ~)uldn't ~ant to build a brand new
public works building next to our existing one?
councilman Workman: If it was back at $100,000.007
councilman Boyt: I would propose that w~ make a motion that ~e accept this
offer if it can be negotiated at that rate.
Councilwoman Dimler: Then he'd have to ccme with another offer and I think he'd
have to initiate that.
Councilman Boyt: Let me just make the motion that w~ would accept it if he or
he and Chaska ca~e up with that offer?
councilman Johnson: In other words, you're counter-offering?
Councilw~n Dimler: We would look at it.
councilman Johnson: So you're saying w~ would accept a counter-offer?
Councilwoman Dimler: But we've already ~ through that Bill.
Mayor (~miel: The counter-offer of $100, MOM. 00 is ~hat he's basically sayirg.
Councilwoman Dimler: We've already ~ through that.
Mayor Ch~iel: Okay, but if that motion were to go through, the decision would
not have to be made at this particular time either. A counter-offer...
Councilwoman Dimler: But to make it real clear, we must reject the one that
he's giving
Mayor Ch~iel: Well that' s true. I agree.
Councilwoman Dimler: And then ~urage him to put another offer on the table
at $100,0~0.00.
councilman Boyt: Everybody's fighting, w~ll Mr. Pauls anyway and our deal, are
fighting time.
Mayor Ch~iel: We realize that Bill.
11
City Council M~eting - October 2, 1989
CounciL.~n Boyt: I think if you like an offer of $100,000.00 total, then it
would sure sa~ everybody a lot of ti,~ if we went ahead and accepted that offer
contingent upon the storage of the equi[m~nt until we can get our building built
but the basic dollax thing is really a chance to turn that piece of property
into an opportunity for the City to c~me up with a better situation overall.
~lt to miss that opportunity.
councilman Johnson: Basically what you're saying is to reject the $60,000.00
offer, authorize Don to accept an offer at the rate of $100,000.007
council~n Bo~vt: That's right.
Don Ashworth: If that were to be considered, I would suggest a couple of adds
to that. Those ~Duld be, that it would also be contingent on [%s negotiating
with Chaska temporary storage at no cost to the City for 1989 or late 1990.
Additionally, if there would be an event~l annexation, that the property could
not be in a tax increment district therefore assuring the taxes off of the site
would go to the county and school.
counciL.mn Johnson: Could they improve the road without that being in a tax
increment district?
Don Ashworth: Yes.
CounciL.mn Boyt: But Don, if we're talking, I don't know exactly how the
assessment on this property would work but if it's a parking lot, it's not going
to be assessed at that tremendous a~mt of money.
Don Ashworth: $30,000.00.
counciL.mn Boyt: If it would allow the City of Chaska to increase their off or
their ability to underwrite this to scme extent, it see~m like to me that it
would be money well spent so I would like to not put other conditions on the~ if
we can avoid it other than the one, we certainly have to have s(m~place inside
to store our trucks and plows and such.
Mayor C~liel: What we should do then is look for a motion to reject the
$60,000.00.
Co~ci]mmn Work, mn: So moved.
councilwoman Di~ler: Second.
Mayor C~mtiel: It's been moved and seconded to reject the $60,000.00 offer for
purchase agreement from Nordic Track Incorporation to the City of Chanhassen.
Then if we could put it back on the table to ~mke a rec(m~endation or...
Councilw(mmn Dimler: Can we vote on that first and then ~mke a recommendation?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes but before we get into that, I just ~ant to make sure we have
it all covered. To then rec~st the initial $100,000.00 offer for that
property. Okay, does everyone understand that?
Councilwc~mn DL,~ler: With the understanding that we can find sc~ more...
12
City Council Meeting - October 21 1989
Mayor Ch~iel: Yes, w~ have ~o get final approval on this and w~ have a motion
and a second now.
Councilman Boyt: So really w~'re doing this in t~D parts. The second part is
going to be accepting $100,00~.00 offer with?
Mayor Ch~iel: Correct.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to reject the offer of
$60,000.00 from Nordic Track for the property located at the southwest corner of
TH 41 and 82nd Street. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Councilman Johnson: I move that wa authorize Don to negotiate and accept on the
behalf of the Council an offer of $100,000.00 for the timing puxpose of this
rather than wait a week.
Councilman Boyt: And storage.
Councilman Johnson: And the condition that Chaska, at no cost to the City of
Chanhassen, provide storage until our building is completed in 1990. What
other?
Don Ashworth: That's it.
Mayor Ch~iel: Without any additional contingencies?
Councilman Johnson: Yeah.
Councilman Workman: Second.
Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to authorize the City
Manager to accept an offer of $100,000.00 for the property located in the
souttm~st corner of TH 41 and 82nd Street contingent on the City of Chaska, at
no cost to the City of Chanhassen, provide storage until the new public works
building is completed in 1990. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
AUTHORIZE EXTENSION ~ AMENDED CURBSIDE R~CYCLING CONTRACT.
Paul Krauss: On August 14th the Council approved an increase in the household
charge for the recycling contract. Approval was granted through October with a
30 day cancellation period incorporated. We're recc~~ing that the City
Council act either to extend or cancel the contract as soo~ as possible so w~
can attempt to arrange for service until the e~d of the year if you so wish. We
are recommending that the Council extend the contract until the end of Dec~s~er.
The Becycling Omm,ission is preparing a draft requesting proposals on the
contract that's going to be sent out in the very near future that gives some
options for the cc~ng year. With that again wa are recc~max]ing that the
contract be extended to the end of the y~ar.
13
City Council Meeting - October 2, 1989
Mayor Chmiel: Through Dece~er? More specifically, what the legislation that
has just been passed.
Don Ashworth: I don't know if it's signed yet.
Mayor C~iiel: Well it's there. All recycling is to be done and that will be
~nndatory.
Councila~n Boyt: What part of it's ~mndatory?
Mayor C~lel: The recycling.
CounciL"mn Johnson: O.%rbside collection.
Mayor C~m~iel: O.lrbside recycling.
CounciL.mn Johnson: In what 1992 for this city, it will be ~ndatory?
Mayor Chmiel: No, 1991.
Councilman Boyt: Tnat's controlled by the Cot~ty or the City?
Mayor Ch~iel: That is controlled by the State nmndating those requir~tents to
the County for the County to deal with ~t or to ~mke sure that the cities do
that.
CounciL.~3n Johnson: Any town in excess of 5,000 people in the metropolitan area
has to have curbside recycling by 1991.
CounciL.mn Boyt: Handled by the Co~nty right?
CounciL.mn Johnson: No. Any town must have it. The money goes to the County.
Paul Krauss: If I could add sc~uething too. That the bill also includes a
funding source for part of that which is a 6% tax on trash hauling. We called
the County today to see if they had any idea about what kind of revenues that
might generate and if so, what we might expect to have out of that. They really
didn't have any info~mtion to give us but I...that just on household trash
alone it probably generates $40,000.00 in Chanhassen.
CounciL.mn Boyt: That's not enough.
CounciL.mn Work, mn: Where's that $40,000.00 going to really come frcm~ though?
Mayor Chmlel: Everybody that' s paying their.
Paul Krauss: It's a 6% tax on trash hauling fee.
CounciL.mn Work, mn: But where are the trash haulers going to get that?
Mayor C~iel: Tne trash haulers will be charging their clients. You bet.
You're the guy. Everybody sitting in this roc~t that has garbage.
14
City Council Mseting - October 2, 1989
Councilman Boyt: I w~uld really have liked to have seen the legislation to
understand who has the responsibility,. I'll take for granted that it's the City
for a minute. It's going to cost of $3~,00~.0~ to extend this contract to the
end of th~ yeax. That's ridiculous. We're haulirg newspaper for $30,000.00.
The County is irresponsible in saying that the City should keep curbside
recycling. They're not doing it and they won't be doing it in 1991 either.
There's no way they can afford it.
Councilman Johnson: Chaska will be.
Councilman Boyt: Ma.~oe the City will be but the County won't he and if the City
of Chanhasssm does this next year, it's $100,000.00.
Don Ashworth: But you've got to give your cc~it~ a chance to make a
rec~m~_ndation.
Councilman Boyt: It's not w~rth, I'll tell you right now, it's not worth
$30,000.00 to me to have those people sit around for 3 months and try to come up
with a plan. I said it 2 months ago and I'll say it again. It's irresponsible
on our part I think.
Mayor Chniel: To sit around?
Councilman Boyt: To come up with a plan that sa~ we're going to continue our
o~rent progra~ is financially irresponsible. We don't have anything else
outside of public safety where we're spending anything like that amount of money
and to haul basically newspaper.
Mayor Ch~iel: Bill, in public safety you don't have state laws that are
dictatirg what you're goirg to do, what you're not goirg to do.
Councilman Boyt: They do. They require us to have a certain n~ber of hours of
coverage right?
Mayor Ch~iel: Yes, that's true but on the same token, this is something that
you and I have taken for granted for so many years. You take your garbage and
you i~]t it out on the a curb and let it sit there. Not even thinking where it's
going or what's going to happen with it. Well it's gott~ to that point now
where by going into the ground it's causing the ground water contamination.
It's causirg and could cause given problems for our drinking water. ~at other
reco~%rses do w~ have with much of the waste that is generated? They're
mandating, the MPCA is mandating that the operators of those facilities are
required to have 3 foot of clay plus the 60 mil poly liner, which is supposedly
the state of the art kind of facility. It's just going to cost us more money
whichever way we h%rn. There's no way we can try to eliminate it. It's just an
automatic.
Don Ashworth: We've gone thro~h some mastics tonight in each of the issues
but I don't think it'd be that much money Bill. We're talking about giving our
c~ittee an opportunity to c~me back with a recc~mandation to us. We're
talking about trying to insure that we don't have curbside and then we pick it
back up within less than a 30 or 60 day period. The n~bers were fr~ 90 cents
per ho,~ehold per month to $1.40 which is a 50 cent increase. 3,000 households
should be $1,500.00 per month. 3 months. $4,500.00.
15
City Council Meeting - October 2, 1989
CounciL.mn Boyt: That's not per month. Tnat's every other w~ek isn't it? wait
a minute. You have 3,800 households. You're talking $1.40 per household every
other ~=ek.
CounciL.mn Johnson: Tnis isn't a $1.40 increase.
CounciL.mn Boyt: No, no. I'm talking about how much money we're spending to
pick up newspapers.
Don Ashworth: I said $.90 to $1.40 so it's about the same difference.
CounciL.mn Boyt: That' s a monthly charge? Okay. So a $1.40 a month tiaras
3,800. How much is that? That's not $30,000.00 so I was wrong there.
Don Ashworth: But I ~an it's the increase isn't it?
CounciL.mn Boyt: No, I'm talking about the, I'm saying that certainly we've got
to recycle. There's no question that we have to recycle. I'm saying curbside
recycling is a cadillac service that this city cannot afford. If the County can
cc~ up with scram way to fix that bill but Tc~ Chaffee put in the budget for
next year $100,000.00 just for curbside pick-up and I'll keep saying it, we're
basically picking up newspaper.
Mayor C~liel: Well that's one of the things I think the co~ittee is working on
this trying to get a better participation by the residents within the city. One
out of every 4 is recycling. Tney have to shoot for 4 out of 4 to recycle.
Councilwxanan Dimler: Am I understanding here that you think that if we don't go
with this here that the recycling co~tit~ will no longer ~et?
Mayor Ch~iel: Not necessarily.
Councilwoman DLmler: Tney can still go ahead. They can work out.
CounciL.mn Johnson: We're still required to have teen. cling. But the recycling
cc~littee will have to come up with a different idea rather than curbside. We
ought to start a collection center. We don't have a building for a collection
center. ~nere's one down on 82nd Street.
Mayor C~s~iel: We did do it at ~blic Works.
Councilwuman Dim]er: Good idea. They' 11 sell that property, I m~an they' 11
want it real bad once we start that.
Councilman Johnson: Do the leaf cc~posting out back.
CounciL-mn Work, mn: We can play that ga~ too.
Councilw~mn Dimler: Let ~ ask you something Don. That bill that just passed.
When is that going to go into effect? That doesn't go into effect right away
that they require us to recycle right away?
Don Ashworth: I think it's 1991 right?
16
City Oouncil Meeting - October 2~ 1989
Mayor Ch~iel: In the 7 county metro area, outstate 19921
Councilwoman Dimler: By whom? The State?
Councilman Johnson: Yes.
Councilwoman Dimler: I thought this bill just passed.
Councilman Johnson: No, older bills prior to this. There's other recycling
bills that have required. Now this is by. County. Our County ~s supposed to be
at what, 15% recycling this year and every, year ~ goal goes up. Now the
goal's going to go up to 31% recycling with this new bill. I think it's 31%.
~yor C~iel: 31~.
Councilman Johnson: 38. Close. So Carver county's going to have to hit a goal
of 30% recycling.
councilwuman Dimler: Is some money going to be available frc~ the County once
this gets instituted?
Mayor C2~iel: Yes.
Councilman Johnson: Don and I are on the County Solid Waste (kx~mittee. Each
year it's about $188,888.80 and some thousand dollars should be brought to the
County from the first year. Of that, I don't think the City's going to see that
m~h. $28,MOM.00-$3M,SMM.00 at the most if that. I mean Chanhassen/Chaska is
where most the money's coming from. That's ~here most the money should go but
they also have to get programs going in all these little towns and they all run
a cost.
Councilman Workman: We' re the only ones with curbside in Carver County aren't
Councilman Johnson: That's right.
Council~mn Workman: And how much are w~ getting now?
Council~mn Boyt: We're not getting anything.
councilman Johnson: The Count~ hasn't done real good at getting grants and
stuff fro~, the state. Some of the outstate counties ~ to do a lot better.
Councilwoman Dimler: Don, did you get us the cost of what it ~Duld actually be
if it's not $3~,~0~.~. Did you figure out ~hat it w~uld be?
Don Ash~rth: Just to ~tendit?
Council~m~an Dimler: Yes.
councilman Johnson: Hopefully there's going to be more competition in the
recycling so some of these costs for the future may be cc~ing down for curbside
as it gets mandatory. Tmere's a lot of people looking at different Mys to get
17
City Council Meeting - October 2~ 1989
rid of a lot of their recycleables as we increase the ~mrkets. Right now
there's no nmrkets.
Don Ashworth: I'd say $5,400.00 is the additional cost over and above what w~
had approved before at basically $.90 and going up to $1.40.
Council~mn Boyt: Yeah, but give us the cost of what it actually costs to pick
up newspapers on the curb. Not the increased cost. I thought w~ should have
cancelled this thing 2 months ago and so what w~'re really talking about is do
we want to contln~ curbside recycling until the County comes up with sc~ ~)ney
for us and I would say no.
Don Ashworth: Tne cost per ~)nth is basically $5,200.00 per month for having
curbside recycling. Over and above what we had approved before, it's going to
cost us $5,400.00 more than what we had set aside as of May, June of last year.
Councilwc~n Dimler: And how much was that?
Don Ashworth: Tnat w~s at $.90 per household per ~mnth so basically let's just
say $1.00 would be. When we started this it was $3,500.00 per month.
Councilwo~n Dim]er: And now you' re increasing it?
Don Ashworth: It increased now to $5,200.00. $5,300.00 per month.
Councilwo~n Dimler: Okay.
Council~mn Boyt: So you're talking $15,000.00.
Councilw~mmn Dimler: Okay, and the fut,%re. (kx~e December, what do we do?
Mayor C~m~iel: That's 3 additional months.
Don Ashworth: Correct. Tnree additional ~)nths would be basically $16,000.00.
$15,900.00. Sc~where in there.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, and in December we go through this process again?
Don Ashworth: Let me finish on Bill's if I ~my. We're really talking about one
month because we have to get 30 day notice for cancellation.
Council~mn Boyt: So that' s October?
Don Ashworth: Well we're into October.
Council~n Boyt: 30 days is the end of October then.
Council~n Johnson: So we've got 2 n~nths. Nov~er-Deo~er.
Don Ashworth: If you give notice right now, you basically are carrying out a
contract through November.
Co~cil~mn Boyt: We extended the contract until the end of October. That was
it.
18
City Council Meeting - October 2~ 19B9
Don Ashworth: But the itom was on the age~da but the Council didn't act on it
so we did not take and send a notice at the end of Se~ which would have
said w~'re cancelling this in Se~ and after October there will be no
se~wice. If you send a notice today, they would say alright. You've give~ us
notice. We' 11 carry out through the end of November.
Councilwc~an Dimlex: By the fact that we only exterded until October 31st,
doesn't that tell them?
Paul Krauss: I had some conversations about that before the meeting started.
We believe that the contract could be a~ended so that it was 30 days frc~ tbs
date of notice that it could be cancelled. ~enever that notice was given. So
at this point we'd be obligated to November 2nd.
Don Ashworth: But that's a modification. I mean that's being a more liberal
position than what it literally says.
Mayor Ch~iel: Can we hear from Waste Mangemant? Did you want to say something?
Lynn Morgan: ...it'd be best if I just read this short paragraph. Either party
may cancel this agreement at any time upon 30 day written notice to the other
paxty. In such event of termination, the contractor shall be entitled to
reimbursement for those expenses incurred up to the termination date provided
the expenses have ~_n incurred by providir~3 the services in Section 3. I'm no
lawyer but I would interpret that to mean that either party could give a 30 day
notice at any time and that the service would discontinue and pa~ument for the
service would discontinue 30 da~vs after that written notice.
Councilman Johnson: So it'd be Nowauber 1 if we do it tonight.
Mayor (]mniel: If we so choose.
Council~mn Johnson: What are you looking for in January for your cost?
Councilman Boyt: $2.02. $2.05. That's the cost I was given.
Lynn Morgan: I don't know what the coStS would be. I think, you know the
proposed increase is $1.35. To go from $.87 per household per month to $1.35.
The marketplace price for the service that (~anhassen is receiving is actually
higher than that. Ho~=ver, we have a very strong interest in staying in this
community and continuing to serve it and I don't know that in the bidding
process where exactly we would be. There may be an atte~ to actually go for
an increase beyond the $1.35.
Council~n Johnson: What if we w~nt to ooce a month? What's the market for
once a month?
Lynn Morgan: (1%ce a month? We only have a couple of programs that are o~ce a
month and the only one that ccmes to mind and I'd want to confizm it but I
believe that Gr~----nwood or Deephavem or perhaps both are once a month at $1.~
per household. But that participation is lower than the kind of progra~ that
you have.
19
City Co~cil Meeting 'October 2~ 1989
Paul Krauss: ~be R and P that's going to go out is going to list a series of
options and prices coming back for alternative services. Once a month I think
~as one of the ones that w~ discussed. Every week was discussed.
Lynn Morgan: I believe every w~ek and every other week.
Paul Krauss: And if it wasn't in there, if you'd like to see what ~nthly
services is, w~ can certainly add that.
Lynn Morgan: W~'re ~=eting tomorrow night so anything that the Council would
like to co~mLmicate to the co~mittee.
Councila~n Boyt: Didn't you say last ti~ you w~re here that a good program had
about a 30% participation rate?
Lynn Morgan: For a program like yours, that's correct. We would look at a 30%
to 35% participation rate as being the norms. And I'd like to clarify for
everyone as well. I think one of the things that's happened here is that you've
taken yo~ stop counts, which is the number of counts. The number of households
the driver actually serves. He has a stroke counter in his cab. It's something
we started recently and everytime he gets out of his truck to pick up a
container of recycleables, when he hits the brake, he hits that counter. That
infor~mtion is now being included on your monthly recycling reports. We do know
however that in cc~untties that have low population density in the housing.
That is, they have a s~mll nu~er of people per dwelling, that there are
households out there that are not going to put their recycleables out every
week. They're not going to put th~ out every other' w~ek. They're going to put
thsm out once a month. 0nly when they're full. Yo~r stop counts don't actually
reflect that so I would have to say that your participation is actually higher
than 25% because we know that there are a few households out there that are
doing that. ~ltting out their materials once a month.
CounciL"~n Boyt: Okay, but you ~ntioned last ti~ that for a come,unity like
us, 30% participation would be a good target.
Lynn Morgan: 30% to 35% participation would be a good number.
CounciL.mn Boyt: Then do you know where Tc~ Chaffee got his number of $2.05 per
household per month because that's what he quoted ~ when I asked him why we'd
have $100,000.00.
Lynn Morgan: I didn't talk to him. He nmy have surveyed sc~ cc~unities.
There are co~unities out there at $2.05.
Council~mn Boyt: ~t he didn't talk to you or your cc~~
Lynn Morgan: Not to ~ personally. If he talked to someone else in my .company,
I'm not aware of it.
Council~n Johnson: I think that n~er was here last ti~ too back in August
when we were discussing this. I thought at that ti~ they said it was going to
go up in January to around $2.00 a household.
Lynn Morgan: For an every other week program?
20
City Co~cil ~L=eting - October 2~ 1989
Councilman Johnson: Rightl
Lynn Morgan: I don't have a lot of authority but I can definitely say that that
would be very high in pricing and I can definitely promise you that it would not
be $2. ~5.
Councilman Johnson: Would that be more like a w~ekly service then?
Lynn Morgan: I don't know because I haven't worked on a profozma for this City
but for $2.05 I would say that yes, absolutely. You'd have to be looking at
least a w~ekly se~wice.
Councilman Boyt: Well that's a relief.
Lynn Morgan: In fact, I would suspect that a n~ber like that would probably
reflect not only w~ekly se~wice but perhaps provision of containers for
recycleables.
Councilman Workman: I use the monthly myself. I don't put it all out there
every week.
Mayor Chniel: Every other.
Councilman Workman: I put it out o~ce a month because I can't win anyway. Even
tho~3h I am a winner and I have a house full of winners.
Mayor Ch~iel: Don say yes you can.
Don Ashworth: You can win.
Councilman Workman: Can I7
Don Ashworth: Sure. I mean that's the reason we do the thing with Dave to
ins~u~e that...
Councilman Workman: Ch we can win now?
Councilman Johnson: I thought ours had ~ r~oved out of there.
Council~n Workman: (~ez, this is getting depressing. In these times of we
should be neighborly so we should give away our shed. We're always got the
guilt. We should not be throwing this stuff in the hole so we should spend the
mucho dollars to do it. I think Bill's absolutely correct. I go on record as
saying that. You know there's a film out right now. It was done by M~Donald
Corporation who's a large corporation and they've had their own problems but
this stuff does not biodegrade. Nothing biodegrades in a hole down there.
They're finding 3M year old sirloin steaks that they know are medi~ rare in
these landfills. Nothing' s biodegrades unless it has water, air, elements and
so we're getting all excited about biodegradeablea and it's not goirg to
biodegrade anyway. If we decide to go with this, w~ need to get something a
little bit fr~ you folks. A little bit. We need timeliness I think on t?~
pick-ups. I myself have a probl~ with every other Wednesday or whenever. I'd
like it if it were, the only reason I show up at these Council _m--c. tings on time
is because I know it's the second and the fourth Monday but if it Ms every
21
City Council Meeting - October 2, 1989
other ~k)nday, I'd have serious proble~ because I know what the second and the
fourth are.
Councilwoman Dimler: How cc~e you're here today then?
CounciL,~n Work, mn: I'm leaving myself wide open. One day you'll cc~ in the
morning very early. I'll b~lp the guy throw it in the truck. ~ne next day I'll
cc~ hc~, it will still be out. I'll get hc~ at 6:30 or so~thing. It will
still be out. My neighbors, who's the first person they see coming up the ~alk
and they ask me, what the heck's going on. Is this the day? Is this another
false alarm? Did the guy on the corner put his stuff out? Then everybody else
followed and it's all sitting out but it's littering. The second thing I think
we need, if we're going to go with s(m~thing, we're going to need to go with
so~ sort of approved container because cans, no less than a thousand cans on my
little street this past ti~. I don't think that's your fault but I think it's
poeple their cans are blowing all over town. After the guys leave, then the
kids go through with their w~gon and they're hauling th~ somewhere to get cash.
Mayor Ct~iel: Maybe Paul can address that. Paul, how are we doing with that
application to the Met Co~ncil?
Paul Krauss: We' re in the process of preparation and we've been in contact with
their staff and have been putting it together. Last we heard is they weren't
incredibly receptive to using that grant for containers but we're still trying.
Council~mn Work~n: Nkm~_r three and finally. We need ~iles fr~ these guys
that are hauling. Tell you what. A dirty, greasy job. Not fun. If you don't
do sc~thing right I've noticed, they get kind of, this guy was cussing under
his breath and he didn't look happy. So~~y put ~mgazines in with their
newspapers. He yanked th~ out and they're all over ~ yard. So we do in fact
need this recycling co~it~ because we need a lot ~re education on this so I
ended up taking the ~kagazines, picked tb~ all up and put th~ in my garbage and
hauled th~ out the next day. So again, I again have no solutions. I have some
strong suggestions. I guess we need to keep doing this at least through
~r but I think there's all sorts of ways we can run this thing more
efficiently and leaner and everything else.
Lynn Morgan: I appreciate your c(x~ents and I 'm sorry that you've had these
concerns and I will take th~ back to the cc~npany. To be very honest, this is
the second co~ent I've heard about an ~plo~ attitude so we'll get on t_hat
tomorrow. Anything you can bring to ~ about what's happening out there on the
street is appreciated because we do have supervisors out there and we do have
excellent employees but that public feedback is taken very seriously.
Councilman Wor~n: What you need to do is you need to get a couple of UPS
~loyees. Lure them aw~y and get those guys working th~.
Lynn Morgan: We do have better trucks so that shouldn't be hard. On the
subject of coming by, the ti~ of day though. I'd like to clarify on that.
I know that it's convenient for the public when they can predict the time of day
when the driver will cc~e down the street. However, the reason that we promote
to people that they need to have their recycleables out on the street by 6:30 or
7:00 a.m. is because things can happen during the day that change the schedule
of when the guy comes through. We ~my reroute for efficiency. A truck tomy
22
City Co,~cil Meeting - October 2~ 1989
break down and delay the route into the afternoon. That's why. w~ really try to
get people to put them out in the morning and we try to be as predictable as we
can when we come by but we don't like to have the public depending on that time
fra~. They should be able to count on us c(x~ing that day. Does that make
sense?
Councilman Workman: I guess my. neighbor was frustrated. I begged her please
don't throw it in the trash because Wednesday's recycling day. Thursday's trash
day so they get frustrated. I' 11 just put it in the trash. The next day. They
don't have to look at it. I said I'll take it. I'll take it out of your garage
but I' 11 let you guess which neighbor that is. So I understand all that. It's
just some of the things I've noticed that we need to...
Lynn Morgan: I appreciate that.
O~cil~n Workman: I think this program has created a lot of new trash and
it's blowirg around. Newspapers and magazines and cans.
Lynn Morgan: From not having containers?
Council~n Workman: Right.
Mayor Ch~iel: Any further discussion?
Councilman Boyt: Using the new figures Don, it's still $72,888.88 a year. I
cna't imagine that we're going to etd up, if we go over 12 months wit/~out
charging an average of $1.50 a household a month. If we're at $1.30 s~mething
noW,
Councilman Johnson: $1.35. If scmshody invents a real w~rthwhile use for
newspapers and starts paying big bucks for newspapers.
Councilman Boyt: This is a technology or process that ~uld be very helpful to
let a few other groups lead and figure out how to do it right. It's a very
expensive process for us to be leading on. We've got to recycle. I'm glad the
recycling committee is out there but this isn't the way Chanhassem should be
recycling. It's too expensive. So I would make a motion that we give ~ 30
days notice.
Mayor C2m,iel: Is there a second?
Councilwoman Dimler: I ' 11 second it.
Councilman Workman: Maybe just a little bit of discussion. ~'~ybe Ursula ~u
can tell us...
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I agree with what Bill's been saying. I do ~mnt
to see the committee continue. I think it's a really important project and I
think we're going to have to do more and more and more of it but I think until
w~ can do it cost effectively, I don't think we've got the participation.
think the committee r-~s to educate people first. Increase participation and I
don't think we have our ducks in order to go ahead with spending the a~ount of
money that we've been spending.
23
City Co~mcil M~eting - October 2, 1989
Mayor Chmiel: I think we've been, the c~m~itt~'s been n~eting now for the past
month every Tuesday of the month and I think they are getting their ducks in
order. Hopefully they will be able to give proper directions to the citizens
within Chan to participate in this. If the participation is there, then of
course the cost could, as w~ discussed before, could very possibly decrease some
because of the additional al~in~l and your tin and glass that you nmybe
getting. I know the newspapers aren't really there yet. Sc~e dollars for that.
In fact, I don't know if you've done any discussions with Carver Oounty at all
with your newspapers that I believe that you have. Tnat you still do have a
source for your newspapers.
Lynn M~rgan: I haven' t personally talked to Carver Co~mty. Sc~=one else frc~
our comfy ~y have. We're not using them for newspaper currently and they
haven't extended that offer. If the participation were to increase
significantly and if the other factors were to hold steady, we could revisit the
cost issue. I honestly don' t know exactly what the impact would be. I do know
that if we can get better participation here, what that will ~an is that you're
recycling dollars will yeild a better value for you. Right now you recycle
about 30 tons per month. At your current pricing, that's well over $100.00 per
ton. However, if we look at the cost of picking up and disposing of a ton of
garbage, the ton of rec-ycleables is really in the range of figures for ~u~naging
a ton of garbage but if we could get the participation higher, that would ~an
that your cost per ton and the value of your service would be greater for you.
Councilw~m~n Dimler: I guess I'd like to clarify something too. I didn't n~an
to say that the co~ittee didn't have their ducks in order. I'm saying that the
City and the County and the State really don't have their d~ks in order yet and
one of the things that Chanhassen has got going for it is that one of the ducks
we have in order is that we have the co~ittee. I think with their results and
their findings, that we'll be going with th~ but at this tin~ I just can't see
justifying the cost to continue this and especially if we don't know what we're
going to do and cc~ Dece~er you'll probably be before us again and we'll have
this sa~ dile~sm again.
Lynn Morgan: As I understand it, probably in Deck,er you'll have the results
back frc~ the bid that the co~ittee is sending out.
Councilwoman Din~ler: Perhaps they'll have a cheaper way of doing it.
Lynn Morgan: Or they could have an alternative. If I could, no one would be
surprised to hear me fight for the 2 ~)nth extensive I think so I'll go ahead
and do it. I think that there's another reason to go ahead and grant this 2
month extension. If you want to co~unicate to this cc~ittee, which is an
excellent co~[ittee by the way, that they need to look at discontinuing curbside
because of the pricing. Tell them what t_he budget is or what range of nun~ers
is acceptable, I think you still need to really get the word out to the people
that curbside recycling is being discontinued and you need to do that in such a
fashion that everybody that recycles right now is well aware of it because you
really wouldn't want to disappoint them by turning off the curbside and then try
to fire them up again for scmething else in a couple of months. It'd be better
to nmke sure they know that curbside is discontinuing and here's what's going to
be put in place. That's just a suggestion.
Councilw~m~n Di~uler: Yes, I think that's a good one.
24
City Council M~eting - October 2, 1989
Mayor Ch~iel: JUst a little more discussion. Jay. We talked with the County.
What was their guesstimate that they. thought they may come up with from the
State?
Councilman Johnson: ! think in the range of $120,~00.00-$150,~0.~0 if
I red,amber right.
Mayor (~m~iel: And they ~_re saying something of (~mm~assen would get what?
They threw out a figure there too. Wes it between $30,0~0.~ and $40,~0~.~?
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, I think so. This city has really helped. Carver
county, was the only county in the metropolitan area to make it's goal and
largely that was based on the businesses in this city and the succe~l
recycling center in Chaska going. Now with our curbside recycling, they're
going to make their goal again this .~sar it looks like based a lot on our
participation. We are helping the county make the goals that they have to make.
I think we have to make a point to the county that we are c(m~itted to recycling
and that we realize that we are helping the County make it's goals. That w~ are
a major factor in this county making it's goals and therefore we expect the
County to look to us. If they want to continue curbside recycling in 1990, we
can't do it on our own. Taere is no way in the world. If they want to make
their goal, this curbside recycling's one of the impor~t because if we stop
cuzbside, we've got to put something else in. ~lat's going to be expensive too.
Because what we did, that little t~porazy thing out at the public works, we
need something more like what, if w~'re not going to do curbside, we ~
something more like Chaska's doing with the actual manned center and that costs
a lot of money to run too. (~aska runs a very nice.
Council~mn Workman: The hours are terrible.
Councilman Johnson: Well, they're very effective in ccmparison to a lot of
centers.
Councilman Boyt: I think Shoreview is running it through their churches. At
least the one that I go by has got a big d~mps~ out there with al~in~ cans
on the outside of it and I don't know what the other thing is that they're
collecting in the other d~pster. Hopefully the recycling committee will
identify these options but are we going to spend what looks like about
$1~,0~.0~ plus dollars to run this out through the rest of tt~ year that we
don't have budgeted? That we're pulling out of who knows where to buy. that
extra 2 months. I don't think we should. I've taken enough time.
Councilman Johnson: I think that's about $1.~ per citizen and I think that's a
reasonable cost.
Mayor Ch~iel: Yeah, we have roughly about $30,000.~0 as was indicated in
that has ~ levied for this and I keep looking at what we have ccming ard what
we're able to get back from the State through the County. If we' re able to get
anywhere between another $30,00~.~-$40,00~.00, that would give us either
$60,~00.0~ or $70,000.~0. You mentioned a figure before Bill of $72,~0~.00 per
y~ar. We're still pretty close.
25
City Oouncil M~eting - October 2, 1989
Council~mn Johnson: I think also next year's contract on this, w~'ve got to do
so~ negotiating. We're got to set sc~ market indicators to where if the
price of alumin[ml goes back up to $.60 a pound rather than the $.29 a pound it
is now. Where it was at $.65 a pound at $.87, Waste Manag~mlent was nmking good
money but when it dropped from $.65 a pound down to $.29 a pound, that really
hurt their contract. That's why they had to renegotiate with us. I think the
same thing should be in there. If that price of alumin%m~ goes up, that should
reflect in our contract. I'm looking at kind of a cost plus contract to where
w~ can take their cost to provide the service and give the~ adminstrative fees
and profit over that but if they start bringing in extra money because of ~rket
conditions, we should see that money directly back to the city and the citizens.
Not Waste Management see it. That's just talking about next year's contract and
my theory on the contract.
CounciL"mn Boyt: May I ask Don a c~stion?
Mayor C2m~iel: Skate.
Councilman Boyt: Your co~nts on the ~mlo of the 20th Don says that we're
going to apparently take in $30,000.00 in 1990 that's earmarked for this sort of
operation. Is that correct?
Don Ashwor th: 1989.
CounciL"mn Boyt: Well it says 1989 is going to close with a deficit. 1990 will
take in approxi~mtely the sa~ a~)unt of which we'll have to pull our deficit
out of. Is that correct?
Don Ashworth: That' s correct.
Council~mn Johnson: If you levy at the rate, yes.
Counci]mmn Boyt: Well if we don't increase taxes right?
Don Ashworth: Right.
CounciL.mn Boyt: And we're going to use $10,000.00 additional dollars for the
next 2 months for that November-December time period. Does that mean in reality
in 1990 we're going to have only $15,000.007
Don Ashworth: Dece~er was, we had sufficient monies to get us through November
even with the higher $1.38. We did not have enough ~)ney for the Deck,er
ti~fra~ so we potentially will close the books for $8,953.00 in the hole. The
cost for the month of Deck,er which I'm saying would be $5,300.00.
Councilman Boyt: Okay. We can afford, if I hear the Mayor and Jay correctly.
If the City gets $30,000.00, we have no assurance that we will from the County
but if we do and we collect a levy a~Dunt of $30,000.00 than then we're
$60,000.00 into this $72,000.00. And we actually want to spend all that money
to pick up newspapers? Granted altm~intm~ plays a key part in funding it but in
te~ of what we're taking out of our landfills, we're taking basically
newspapers out of there.
Councilman Johnson: Tonage wise, yeah.
26
City Oouncil Meeting - October 2~ 1989
Mayor Chniel: Presently that's ~ahat you're doing but yeah. The thing that
you're tryirg to do is extend the life of the landfills basically and recycle
Councilman Boyt: ~lt these recycl~ables aren't contributing at all to ground
~ater contanination except maybe leechin~ lead out of the funnies or something.
Mayor Ch~iel: ~he newspaper. Foz~er newspapers.
Councilman Workman: Doesn't newspaper take up about 15% of what's in the
landfill or something?
Lynn Morgan: It's a large percentage of ~hat's in a landfill. I don't believe
it's quite as high as 60.
Council~n Boyt: Disposable diapers are the...
Councilman Johnson: There's also some legislation which will be cc~ing up which
may force this county to build it's own landfill at a site to be selected by
State. It could be in Chanhassen. It could be anywhere without any local
control over where it is. The world of solid waste is getting real confusing
and very costly. The next 3 ~s ever.ubody should expect their garbage bills
to do~le. Very easily .... also is the tax that you'll be getting on it. The
recycling money.
Mayor Ch~iel: I'd like to keep this going. We do have a motion on the floor to
terminate our agreement within 30 days. It's ~ seconded.
Councilman Boyt moved, Councilwuman Dimler seconded to give 30 day cancellation
notice to Waste Management Inc. for curbside recycling in Chanhassen.
Councilman Boyt, Councilwoman Dimler and Councilman Workman voted in favor.
Councilman Johnson and Mayor Ch~iel voted in opposition and the motion carried
with a vote of 3 to 2.
FINANCIAL ADVlSOR DESIGNATION.
Don Ashworth: T~e Council had t~bled this itsm to allow staff to meet with
springstead and try. to clarify their proposal. They had sent a letter to the
Council regarding ho~ly service fees. We did that and in fact Councilman
Workman and Councilwoman Dimler and I met with Springstead and through that
process there ~s an agreement reached that they would look at the contractual
fees section of the proposal in tenv~ of a retainer and they. would guarantee to
us 50 hours of service from their firm at no cost to the City. and they would
maintain an accounting of that. In light of the fact that many of our projects,
as I see it will probably be reducing, the 200 hours that had been used for
cc~oarison purposes for 1988, probably was high. I don't see where w~ would be
to that level again. ! don't ~ that many supem~arkets, Rosemounts, whatever
around the corner and in all likelihood, 50 hours would probably be a more
reasonable n~er. I redid the cost and basically, and I don't have ~ right
in front of me but if I re~a~x right, it was about $59,000.00 for Springstead
and $56,000.00 for Andy and I think PSS ~ms far under that. In addition,
27
City Co~ncil Meeting - October 2, 1989
Councilms~er Johnson had asked for a tabulation of the bids from the last time
around. I did not have that infokmation at the time w~ had met with Sprlngstead
and so I did include that in the Co~cil packets.
Councilman Johnson: There's scmething that's hard to read. Can you shed sc~
light on that?
Don Ashworth: At the ti~ that w~ had n~t, and I'm talking about with
Councilman Workman, Councilwc~mn Dimler and myself and Springstead, I had ~mde a
stat~nt that it's very difficult to nmke an apples to apples comparison on
bids. Frc~ that listing, it typically would be. The difference in days. How
an issue is w~ighted, fk~parable ratings. Insured. Not insured. Tnere's a
lot of factors that will go into a particular bid. Ironically two of
Springstead's cities did bid at almost the sa~ ti~ that w~ had taken bids in
Sept~_r and Nov~er of last year and I tried to highlight those two. I must
say that the City did receive a better quote in t_hat Sept~er-November
ttn~fra~.
Councilman Worknmn: Which other cities w~re those?
Don Ashworth: Eagan and Coon Rapids.
counciL.mn Johnson: Eagan's on the first page, the very first one.
Don Ashworth: I tried to highlight th~. Maybe I didn't do a very good job of
it.
CounciL.mn Johnson: What's really interesting in there is Eagan, the first one
on the list, is an A-1 and the third one is a comparable or GO bonds where we're
A-AA which is a lesser rating. However when you go down to what the coupons
went for, overall we're even if not ahead of what we're paying for those coupons
over the 14 years. Both financing the san~ amount of years. We just started
paying th6m earlier.
Don Ashworth: One of the reasons I made the rec(ms~_ndation and if we do go with
Sprlngstead, I think it's clear that we want to insure that they ~mke sure that
we have at least 3 or 4 bidders to insure each sale and that we receive at least
3 to 4 bids frc~l buyers. I went through a group of other conditions with people
from Springstead. They did not object to any of those. Were willing to do
th~. For example, bidding the paying agent fee. There's two in there but
anyway, they didn't have a problem in doing that.
Councilman Work, mn: I guess sc~ of those, in July of 1986, Chanhassen only
received one bid on our 44.6 million dollar GO.
Co~nciL.mn Johnson: ' 86?
counciL.mn Worknmn: July of '86.
councilman Johnson: That was before I was on the Council.
Don Ashworth: The condition on like the 3 to 4 bids, what I'm n~king the
assumption there is that that represents the current ~mrket. If you look in
that timeframe, I'm willing to bet that Sprinstead was receiving one bids.
28
City Oouncil _~cting - October 2, 1989
Councilman Work~n: Well in June of 1987 we received 3. Springstead's received
1~.
Council~n Boyt: Where did you get this infozmation?
Councilman Workman: From Springstead. ~ison bond sellers off our last
four.
Councilman Boyt: You got the information frcm Springstead?
Councilman Workman: Yes. This is all public information. Likewise in Jay's
cc~ments as far as where ours w~re in relation to others. The bond buyer index
previo~m five yeaxs to present show that our rate~ were right with where the
national market average ms an.uway. Our market position was pretty much in flow
with what the national trends were. I guess I'm ready to make a bit of a charge
with this. I have a lot of confidence in Springstead. I did before we even
thought about making a switch with tt~y have some sort of a newsletter that they
send out and that I read.
Councilman Johnson: ~hey've done a good job of marketing. They appear to have
done ever.~chirg right. They have the marketers telling me what I'm supposed to
be doing. Getting this information out to you. I don't know, they haven't
given me any of this information.
Councilman Workman: Well this information that I requested.
Councilman Boyt: There's an interesting thing here about this infon~ation
because it says we're, right in the request of information, that these people
are to have no contact with the City Council.
Councilman Workman: I initiated the contact.
Councilman Boyt: Well it would sesm to me that the logical response for ~
would have been to point out to you that they were to have no contact directly
with you. It said that right in the request fr(x~ the city for information.
Councilman Workman: I initiated it and any kind of decision, any kind of
questions that ca~e up were being used against this firm I thikn have ~_n
satisfactorily answered. I would move to approve Springstead.
Councilwoman Dimler: I second that.
Mayor C~iel: Just to reiterate a little bit of what Tom has said amd the
questions that you're raising Bill. I guess if a Council person feels h~ wants
to delve into somethi~ a littlemore...and acquire that information, I think
it's initiative on his part to do that.
Councilman Johnson: Then he should do it with both bidders.
Mayor Ch~iel: That may be very. well.
Councilman Johnson: Because Andy could probably come up with the same
information that shows he's done a very good job.
29
City Co~cil Meeting - October 2, 1989
Councilwoman Dirtier: No Jay. I think what w~ did was, the information that was
presented to us that was negative towards Spr ingstead, that's the questions we
wanted answered and had nothing to do because there was no negative on Mer icor.
CounciL.mn Work, mn: And I have nothing against Mericor or Andy Merry in that
regazds but when it looks so lopsided as it did in our auditors, I went after to
find out if in fact that could be possible. With Springstead, and they are
doing a booming business and if you're saying that they're fooling an awful lot
of cc~mnities in the Metro, you can go ahead and say that but they're doing
something right scmlewhere and it appeared to ~ that it was again, like in the
auditor's situation. I wanted to find out sc~ of the particulars of why it
looked like Springstead cost double what Andy Merry could do it for. I think I
did that and I'm very happy, that if I, I think it's my right to go ahead and
research the issue. They've given ~ what Chanhassen has done in the ratings
and the bonds and everything else like that. I don't think this stuff is
disputable. P~i~mrily I'd like to see it changed. I'm not going to be
embarrassed for that.
Co[~nciL.mn Johnson: I like to see change in things too and I'm sure you're
going to be supporting change all night tonight.
Co~nciL, mn W~rk~mn: Am I?
Councilwo~mn Dirtier: Not necessarily. I seconded it because I think it's ti~
for a change as well. I like Springstead's rates. I think they would do an
excellent job for us and I'm also concerned about a one man show. I prefer to
see other people involved. There's a better check and balance when there's more
than one ~mn involved.
Mayor Ctmliel: Any discussion?
Council~mn Johnson: I like s~ll businesses. I like big businesses. I do
both. Andy's done a good job and what he specializes in, you don't have to be a
big. Sc~e of the best financial consultants in the co~%ntry are one man shows.
That's what they do because they've got the brains and the talent to do it. It
doesn't take a whole bunch of junior partners whipping around. I think this is
one of the cases where when it ain't fixed we ought to leave it alone.
Councilwo~mn Dimler: %~nat's good Jay. Let's leave it broken.
Councilman Boyt: I can certainly sense that this is a done deal so I won't take
long. I think it is significant when people who are responding to a bid in an
area as technical as this wouldn't call to Tc~'s attention that he was asking
them~ to step outside of that bid. NOw I don't care if that would be Andy or if
that would anybody else. That bothers me. The other part is that I'd be real
interested in getting to the bottom of these ccmparisons because going strictly
through the City Manager, which is how I understood is how we were supposed to
be doing this, the figures that we were given w~re on our 2 most recent bidded
bond issues which j~mt happened as he mentioned, to fall a~mzingly close in time
and size to Coon Rapids and Eagan and there was a $50,000.00 difference between
whether you happen to be Chanhassen or whether you were Coon Rapids and Eagan.
As I understand that figure, that $50,000.00 is very conservative. It depends a
lot on how you interpret what's going on in the payback procedure and clauses of
30
City fbuncil Meeting - October 2, 1989
the bond that at ,anim~ Chanhassen saved $5g,g0g.0g. Springstead in proposing
their bid, dramatically underestimated or at least presented, given the City's
past history, a proposal that required much less consulting hours and they even
said they'd throw the~ in for free which was an interesting approach given that
the apartment complex agreement ~s 3 yeazs of ~Drk by Andy in this case but
whoever our bonding person was. Rosemount was 50 hours of work. Consulting
hours of work which is as much as they're proposing for a ~hole year and maybe
we'll find that that's true. Mericor has given us very. good service. I an
quite willing to, I understand that the 3 of you can choose any person you ~ant.
But it's going to be more expensive if we go on the last two.
Co,~cilman Johnson: Yeah. Personally if there ~as a reason to make a change,
I'd go with PFS and save $20,000.00. The third bidder there is a $39,000.00
versus $59,000.00.
Councilwuman Dimler: I guess Jay ~hat we're sa~ng is, I'm not buying the
negatives on Springstead. I think they will do as good a job and as cheap as or
at the same rate of Mer icor would do. We've heard Don address the fact that we
don't have any. Ros~,ounts and those kinds of things where we're going to be
using 218 hours. 50 sounds reasonable and I think that again, I'd like to
reiterate tbs point that I think for accountability and for checks and balances,
I prefer to see more people on the job.
Mayor (]x, iel: I did a little checking on my. own too Bill with respective cities
and counties and asking them, who have engaged Springstead and what they. thought
of Springstead. They thought they w~re a very reputable company. They had a
lot of confidence in them. They didn't think their costs were any different
than anybody elses. They thought they did an exceptional job for ths~,
specifically Ramsey county.. I guess that was one of the things that I had
looked at. I too an for changes within but I wanted to find out too ~hat other
people thought of the~. They should know. So if there's no more
discussion, I'll call a question.
councilman Workman: I guess just in defense of myself. ~hen we were discussing
auditors and maybe I showed some inclination towards Panell-Kerr versus DeLoitt.
DeLoitt ~as made out to be this Big 8 firm that ~as the Cadillac firm. In fact
the word was used, that my. support for Panell-Kerr was indefensible. How could
I do that? I think Springstead's a Cadillac firm and I think not to go with
the~ is indefensible.
council~n Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to appoint Springstead
the City's Financial Consultant. Councilman Workman, Oouncilw~man Dimler and
Mayor C2~iel voted in favor. Councilman Boyt and Councilman Johnson voted in
opposition and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 2.
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
H(Y~ TO SHORTEN AGENDAS, MAYOR CHMI~.
Mayor C2mdel: Let's just look, hopefully everybody had an opportunity to take a
look at the it~ 12 which we had last Monday. How to shorten agendas and we
w~t to midnight again. What we'll do is just hold that. Shorten agendas
31
City Co~u~cil Meeting - October 2, 1989
because Ursula mentioned the fact that I didn't ~ Jim cc~e in here. Although
there are some other people here. I guess there isn't. On the co~iittee on the
school district.
Council~n Work~n: Are w~ under council p~esentations now?
Mayor C~iel: Yes, right now. But we have scme additional items here where Jim
is here which is on ite~ 14. Is that going .to be a discussionary it~ this
evening?
Don Ashw~rth: I was hoping that w~ w~uld have an opportunity to discuss that
but as noted, this it~ is in court and I would propose that the Oouncil move
into an executive session when we get into that portion. We would continue to
record that part of the meeting but until the court process is over with, Roger
was concerned that you might have infor~mtion out in the newspaper or potential
television at the same ti~ that it's being tried.
Mayor Chmiel: So I think we best leave that until item 14 until we co~ to the
end.
Council~m~n Dim]er: Okay. Tnat's fine.
Jim Burdick: Unfortunately for us, this matter's not in court. It was in court
week after w~ek for 6 m~nths. It's not the court. It's not going to be in
court for quite sc~ period of ti~. We're arguing should be days .... is
saying it should be months. ~nat fella claims he's sick is the latest thing.
It's not in court and isn't going to be...
Mayor C2~iel: It's not in court.
Don Ashworth: It had gone in today and Jim is correct. This past w~ek Mr.
Farrell did have a setback. We do not know how major that will be. It does not
change the fact that the ite~l is before the Court. Hopefully we can settle out.
I'd like to see it settled out but I don't think that the settling out of that
court case should occur through the newspapers. It should occur through a
presentation to the Council. Potential instructions frc~ the Council as to what
we might pursue in terms of a settlement and if that fails, then we will
continue with the court portion. But again, I don't think that the thing should
be tried in this type of a for[m~. At least that's Roger's rec(x~endation and it
was anticipated that all parties were in agreement with that. Mr. Krass would
not be present tonight representing Mr. ~rdick. Roger would not be present
tonight representing the City. Mr. Burdick would be given an opportunity to
make a presentation but it would be in an executive session forint.
Councilman Johnson: . ..nice presentation would be in an executive also?
Don Ashworth: His presentation would be yes.
Council~n Boyt: I don't know exactly how the Sunshine Law works but if this is
in court, I don't think we should be holding executive sessions.
Council~n Johnson: If it is before the courts.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, it's not in the court.
32
City Oouncil Meeting - October 2~ 1989
Councilman Workman: If it's simply a presentation?
Councilman Johnson: I saw a subpoena today so I mean the courts are working on
this one. One of my. fellow managers at work got subpoenaed on this case.
Don Ashworth: Again, I can only repeat what Roger stated to me and that was
that Don I would highly recommend that you close the session. He does not want
to _.~-c again the it~, you might say tried, in this type of a for~,.
Councilwoman Dimler: Is the presentation the~ would be not, we wouldn't be able
to act upon it tonight anyway?
Mayor (/mliel: No, w~ couldn't.
Don Ashworth: Well, what I mentioned to Jim before ~as he would be given an
opportunity to ~mke his presentation. We would record that so the press could
take a look at it when this issue is settled out. We would then ask Mr. Burdick
to leave the roc~ after his presentation which would give the Council an
opportunity to instruct staff as to how you'd like us to proceed. ~hat portions
of the presentation you would like additional infozmation on or whatever other.
Not knowing what might come out of this form of a presentation, it's hard for me
to second guess how you might be instructing us but that's what w~ had
anticipated anyway.
Councilman Boyt: I could see if the Council was meeting with it's attorney but
personally I guess I'm not very. comfortable going into an executive session. We
ought to be real careful when we do that I think.
Council~n Johnson: Why can't Boger be here tonight? He couldn't make it?
DOn Ashworth: Well two reasons. One is that he had met with Mr. Krass today
and Mr. K~ass is in a meeting over in North St. Paul and there was an issue as
to whether or not Mr. Krass could be here and a question as to whether or not,
if we had an attorney here should not Jim have one and vice versa and they. came
to the conclusion that allow Mr. Burdick to simply make a presentation as to his
areas of concern. I said that the Council could hear those but do that as a
part of an executive session. I guess I don't know how otherwise to respond to
Councilman Boyt's question.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'm going to make a motion that we go back to ite~ 12 (a),
how to shorten agendas because this is getting to be a long discussion.
Mayor ~iel: Okay. Bringing it back to itsm 12 which is 12(a). Hew to
shorten the agendas. An issue I'm sure all have had an opportunity to read.
Rather than going through each o~e of these specific items, hopefully this is
something that we can all follow. More specifically with the consent agendas.
Reviewing those with staff and doing the opportunity to go by there on Friday or
Monday to determine whether or not it should be a discussionary it~ or it
should be pulled and to ~ke that additional time. ~e reason for the consent
agenda is as such to they're non-controversial kinds of itsms and they. should be
approved with clarifications that anyone may have or questions from staff
regarding that specific its~. I think what we want to do is to try to handle
our meetings most expeditiously and in the best way we know how in having a
33
City Oo[mcil Meeting - October 2~ 1989
guidelines as to what to go by and I think much of these are here. If you've
had the strea~linlng meetings and going through s(x~e of this information, it's
rather info~mtive. They specifically spell out what sc~e of the cities do
thyselves and how they try to resolve given probl~ so if you have an
opportunity to look at it, let's try to practice it and go fr~m there.
CounciL-mn Johnson: I think one thing everybody has to keep in mind. When the
horse is dead, we should quit beating it for the next hour.
Mayor Ct~iel: You've got it.
CouncIL,~n Johnson: A dead horse around here doesn't have a chance.
Councilwc~mn Dimler: I have t~D suggestions. One would be that, I think that
the adminstration ~s to organize a cc~plaint system so that c(m~lains from
th~_ public and frc~ staff can all be handled through that cc~plaint syst~ and
only those that can't be satisfied there should come before the Co~ncil. So if
there's a neighbor to neighbor dispute, I don't see why it needs to c(~ to
Council.
Counci~n Johnson: We don't get ~ny of those.
Councilwc~mn DL,~ler: Well the dog barking one is the one that I r~ember.
Co~nciL-mn Johnson: That's one that's been before us for 3 years. That's one
that staff couldn't handle.
Councilwoman Di~ler: Well okay but that's just a suggestion. Also then,
another one would be that all the council ~ers keep their comments to 2
minutes per issue and can talk on one issue only twice. Then we go to the vote.
Councilman Boyt: I thought we were trying to work out quality decisions?
Councilw~mn Di~ler: Well absolutely but this forces you to have sc~e fore-
thought and then you work that out at hcme and you cc~ with your c~m~ents
prepared and then we don't waste time talking about unnecessary things or things
we've hashed over in the past over and over and over and over and over again.
Mayor Chmiel: I think we should have limitations. 2 minutes is pretty hard to
stress. That's a little short I think.
Councilwoman Dimler: You think so? 2 minutes per person. 2 ti~s per issue.
That' s 4 minutes per issue really.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I think you could limit it to 3.
Councilw~n Dimler: Also I have a comment on the first one. As Don very well
knows, I c(m~ in every Monday morning that there's a council ~ting and we
spend 2 to 3 hours talking over the consent agenda so it isn't that it hasn't
been done. It's just that a lot of things get stuck on the consent agenda that
really shouldn't be there and I think that adminstration has to be a little bit
more careful as to what they stick on there and then there won't be that many
things to pull.
34
City Oouncil Meeting - October 2~ 1989
Co,~cilman Boyt: If you look back at the meetings before Jay and I got on the
Council, before w~ started having 3~0 new hemes a year being built. They spent
a lot of time, I mean a good bit of time going through the Minutes correcting
core,ns, words here and there. Their consent agenda was pretty, short. The
chapter that was included here by. Don. I think w~ do almost every one of these
items but if you take and w~ deal with a fair amount of controversy. You take
the TH 101/Dakota Avenue relocation its~. I agree with all of you that
sometimes it's hard to get off a dead horse. I w~uld much rather have the
discussion here than in the newspaper but w~'re all quite willing to go to the
newspaper to hold ou~ discussions. I'd just as soon not have to do that.
Councilwoman Dimuler: Not me. I'd rather not do it too.
Councilman Boyt: I think that one of the reasons that I'm on the council and I
suspect it's true for the others of you, is because you ~ant to voice an opinion
about critical issues to the City. Some of these things take time. If you're
going to have 3~ items on an agenda and some of those items, maybe all of them,
are going to affect people for years if not the rest of the time they live in
Chanhassen, it takes time and they deserve time and I think that's just the
nature of the beast.
Councilman Workman: I think one of the things we have to do is get staff to get
that stuff off the agenda. About half and then just make provisions or put in
our rules that we meet the next night or we meet next Monday night or ~hatever
and that's an incentive. I agree in talking shorter. I bet if you go through
and add up all the words, I'd c(x,e up with the least. Sure they're quality.
Councilwoman Dimler: That's what I was saying. Quality., not quantity.
Councilman Workman: And that's the incentive. My. incentive tonight is to go
relax with m~ family. Like I told Dave over there. I left Alf and a wazm fire
in the fireplace to come P~_re tonight. My incentive would be to get hcme and
enjoy s~ of that .vet tonight.
Mayor Ch~iel: Alright, let's go to 12 (b) then.
Councilman Workman: Okay. I'm bring this up is in regards to our past
disagreement with the Contract. What I'm going to propose hopefully this
evening is to have staff rescind instructions to in fact search out neighboring
communities to look into supplying us with a contract. ~at portion of my
motion was a friendly ~endment by. Bill. I no longer see it as friendly and so
I would like to withdraw that portion of it since it was in face my. motion and
let me back that up with a few points. That the public safety c~m~ission
m~bers, the sheriff's department and Officer Chaffee all agree that it is
redundant to do so. In fact to paraphrase Jim, he would perhaps be embarrassed
to go back and ask because they simply are not in that business to provide us
with those services. So I would like to save staff some time on ~hat was
perhaps a bad idea by me since it was my motion to do so and since we have
statistics from years past, which I was not completely aware of, to withdraw
that portion. It may perhaps have to be on the next Council _m~cting. If we
~ant to take action on that. If that's in fact ~hat we have to do.
Councilman Johnson: We can move for reconsideration. That's the procedure.
And then it will go onto the next Council meeting. I think a ~hole lot more has
35
City Oouncil M~eting - October 2, 1989
been ~de of this than was ever intended to be ~uade of it. Public Safety
Cc~lission got upset. I got the impression they tho~3ht they w~re being pushed
to the side on this. There's no way I want th~ involved all the way through. I
think part of it is this extre~ely weak contract we have. My objective is to
get that contract renegotiated to where it's a good two part contract.
Council~n Workman: ~nis is a Co[~cil presentation. It's not discussion. I
just presented it. That's all.
Councilsmn Johnson: Are you going to move for reconsideration?
Council~kqn Workman: Yes. I will move to reconsider.
Councilw(m~n Dimler: Do I have to withdraw my second from that portion?
Council~n Work, mn: No. Just second my move to reconsider.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. I will second the move to reconsider.
Council~mn Johnson: Now it's open for discussion.
Council~mn WorSen: Refer to 12 (a).
Councilwcman Dimler: It's a dead horse. We've beat it enough.
Co~mcil~n Boyt: I' 11 save my 2 minutes.
Councilman Johnson: Is what you're asking is to reconsider only to look at
other areas? Are w~ still going to be instructing that they look at. I mean
for 2 years we've been asking to have this contract looked at and it hasn't been
done. Tnat we go in and we start negotiating this contract.
Council~u]n Work~n: I think it has and I think it's favorable if not c~mparable
to ~st others.
Councilman Johnson: When you say it's favorable and ccmparable to sc~lebody who
gets 2 to 3 hours of se~wice, it's not the sa~m contract. I won't write the
same contract to buy a lollipop at the grocery store or buy a Cadillac. I mean
it's two different contracts.
Mayor Chmiel: Jim, do you have anything to just throw a little light on this so
everybody...
Jim Chaffee: How much time do I have?
Mayor C~m~iel: About 2 minutes.
Jim Chaffee: I guess I really don't have anything to say. We'll follow
whatever Council's wishes are. A1 Wallin and I were directed last year, or the
beginning of this year, to look at a long range plan for police services for the
City of Chanhassen. We will do that. I think we've bought so~ ti~ with the
signing of the 1980 contract. I feel comfortable doing it. I think Sheriff
Wallin feels cc~,fortable doing it and we'll just abide by the wishes of the
Co~cil.
36
City Council M~eting - October 2~ 1989
Councilman Johnson: What's yo,= progress on that?
Jim Chaffee: We've got a time frame that A1 Wallin shot out when w~ first met
and we're workirg on that right now but we're still in the preliminary, stages of
it.
Councilman Johnson: 10 m~'~ amd still in the preliminary stages. What about
the issue of, have you ever talked to the County. Attorney on this contract?
Jim Chaffee: Yes I have.
Councilman Johnson: And the Oounty Attorney says that they will not, that this
is the one, the only possible contract?
Jim Chaffee: Well he didn't say it in such strong terms but because of the
lawsuit with Chaska, I'm under the understanding or I'm of th~ understand~
that ~ are locked into that because of the language in the settlement and
changes made to that contract can be made by letter agreement with the City of
Chanhassen and tt~ Sheriff's Department through the County Attorney but yeah, I
have talked to Mike Fahey on that.
Councilman Workman: Jim, what kind of response ~Duld you or have you gotten from
~den Prairie or Shoreview or whoever?
Jim Chaffee: JUst off the record, they won' t consider it. I've talked to Chief
Keith Wall. I talked to Chief Dick Setter. Certainly I've talked to Chief
Richard Young fzom South Lake Minnetonka and they just, it's too ~ of an
endeavor for the~ to come out of Count~ and service Carver County..
Councilman Workman: So it's kind of a cooky, idea?
Councilman Johnson: No, it's not a cooky, idea but you've done some preliminary
work on it and it does not look feasible as your preliminary work has shown.
Jim Chaffee: That is correct.
Co~cilwaman Dimler: Didn't you study this in 19877
Jim Chaffee: I have not studied it no. I've just done the preliminary
research.
Councilwoman Dimler: I was under the impression that Dick Wing said t_hat it was
studied two years ago.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, he said that but who did the study?
Councilwoman Dimlex: The Ccemission.
Jim Chaffee: I'm not aware of any study that was done in 1987 an.vway.
Councilman Boyt: The document that he presented and maybe this can be put in
the staff packet so you can read it for the reconsideration, talked about the
study that was done in 1981 and that Dick had done sc~e updatirg on that over
37
City Council M~eting - October 2, 1989
the years. I think it would be helpful if you had that infornmtion before
discussed it.
Council~mn Johnson: ...so you've aL"lost completed what you need to do.
Councilman Workman: No Jay. I think this part of it is just simply who might
else. What I'm attempting to take out of my motion is who else would want to
supply ~ with a police contract. I say nobody and I think Jim is leaning
towards that. I think the study that we directed th~ earlier with A1 and Jim
and everybody after the so called breathalyzer fiasco, was to give us maybe a
date or what is our long range plan going to be? When are we going to do it? I
think that takes, if this Council could arrive at possibly because I don't think
anybody on this council believes that having our own police department is
adverse to the County Contract. I think everybody's in agre~ent on that but if
we could take and figure out a date. Syste~mtically, financially and everything
else, we'd take the air out of this thing. The newspapers wouldn't have a darn
thing to write about.
CounciL.mn Johnson: No, what I'm saying is what we directed that last w~ek or 2
weeks ago, or whenever this was. That part of it. It appears he's pretty much
through with ~ahat you're asking him to reconsider. It still has to go and look
at that 5 year or whatever plan. I'd like th~ to increase the s~ on that.
What I'm saying is by the ti~ we work the reconsideration, he's going to be
through beca~tse he's going to ccme back to us and give us a quick little report
saying nobody wants to do it. It's infeasible. As far as looking at
neighboring cities. It sounds like he's almost finished. He's looked around
CounciL.mn Workman: No. I don't think we've started that process did you? It
had already been done.
Jim Chaffee: That had already b.~_n done. Tne only thing I haven' t done is
fo~mlly request these cities to provide us with a bid for the services.
Council~mn Johnson: How long ago did you talk to all these chiefs?
Jim Chaffee: A yea3~ and a half ago.
Council~mn Johnson: So you were aware of that when we n~ade that motion the
other day?
Mayor C~m~iel: Okay, thanks Jim. We had a n~tion and a second to have
reconsideration of the police contract by. CounciL.mn Worknmn. There's a second.
Council~mn Worknmn moved, Councilwoman Dim]er seconded to reconsider the police
contract on a future agenda. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Chniel: Next ite~ on the agenda is Statement of Values, School District
9112. Don?
Don Ashworth: This item appeared and not appeared and ~lished and not
published and I think it's finally back onto your agenda and can be taken care
of.
38
City Oo,~cil Meeting - October 2~ 1989
Oouncil~n Johnson: i move approval
Councilw~n Dimler: Second.
Resolution 989-188: Councilman Johnson moved, Oouncilw~man Dimler seconded to
adopt the Statement of Val~s frc~ School District ~I12 as presented. All voted
in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Ch~iel: Ite~ 13 (b), City Council asks that city goals be included so we
could discerns if and how mmk~h should be pursued.
Don Ashworth: I really think this should be part of s~me hype of special
session. Work session. Future. I thought I would put those back out again and
start the thought process. I don' t know when we' 11 get to it since our next
efforts are really going to be budget. At least for the next month. If you
~nt to hold onto those and be looking at them. It's s(x,ething we should do.
Councilman Johnson: I'd like to see next time an update as to how many of these
have had anything done to the~.
Don Ashworth: In fact I was looking back through my own and I told Karen, I
don't even know if I want to put those on there. We're getting into Se~.
The ~u~ar's almost done.
Mayor Ch~iel: The o~e thing about TH 101 relocation. Tell the good word.
Don Ashworth: We got it. The State has included it in the bill. That's about
4 to 5 million dollars state funding that will cce~ to Chanhassen to assure the
realigr~ent of TH 101 ~ a reality. The suit with Abby Bongard can be
dismissed which Roger has pursued or I mean has notified the Court of so
condemnation can be started there. I'm very, very happy that we were able to
get that through the legislatuxe.
Mayor Chniel: Me too. A lot of time.
Don Ashworth: The mayor has spent a lot of time and it required getting votes
frce, Hennepin County which was very difficult. If you recall, Mr. Johnson had
~ quoted as saying I bet Chanhassen must be laughing all the way to the bank
about 2 to 3 years ago amd through the work of the Mayor, we were able to
change. Not change but obtain his vote in getting Darius and Jude were also
very important and of course then the legislature itself.
Mayor C2~liel: That was most important. If they didn't approve it, we wouldn't
have gotten it. Okay. Let's move onto ite~ 14.
Co~cilwuman Dimler: Are we going to go into executive session now?
Mayor Chmiel: No. You know what I'm thinking really? Maybe I'm wrong but tell
me, at least it's my feeling. Ma~ube %~at there should be is sort of a oan~ittee
of Jim, scewaone from the city and even myself or s~meone on Council if they'd
like to sit on it, to just sit down and come up with some of the conclusions.
39
City Council Meeting - October 2, 1989
guess my major concern is or was at the ti~ that this not go into the court
syst~m~ that we could save a few dollars by cc~ling ~ with a resolution of what
the cost differences are bet~=en what Jim is selling for and his appraisal as
opposed to what the City. I know that we've already spent about x nu~er of
dollars and I'm sure Jim has too and as I look at it, it's still ~)re money for
the City, for our Attorney to spend and what I'd like to see done is that we try
to reach a solution if we can. If we can't, well then we can't and it has to go
to the courts but at least to sit down and try to work sc~ething out. Cc~ up
with sc~ conclusions as to where we're at.
Counci]mmn Work, mn: We have in our midst also another gentl~mn who is also in
a situation, threatened condemnation and I don't know that we've seen any
movement there either. He's kind of hanging. There's a lot of threaten
development cc~ling up aro[u~d him. He's going to be forced to move pretty soon
and doesn't really have an idea about what's going on there. Does that figure
into any of this?
Don Ashworth: So you'd like to have the co~ittee potentially meeting with both
Mr. Burdick and Bernie?
Co~cilsmn Work, mn: I think the sooner the City gets out of the courts and we
get the carcases of our long lost businesses in this town buried, given proper
burials, we get on with a more positive tone in our develolm~ent in our city that
we're all going to be a little happier. I don't myself appreciate these court
slt~tions. I don't know. Tnere's ~)re than 10 sides to each of these issues
and the way I hear it, I would just as soon get this, what I kind of call a dark
period of our city here and what we had to do to redevelop. I know there's sc~e
positive aspects of all this and downtown's starting to look a little better but
there are some people that have been lost in the cracks I think and I just wish
we could get this over with. If we could find sc~eway as a co~littee to help
resolve this cheaper and quicker and ~)re friendly, than by all ~ans.
Don Ashworth: Staff would really appreciate having one or more council me~oers
in ~=etings let's say with Jim or even with Bernie. I'm hoping that the
m~etings with Bernie aren't going to take that much. I hope there's nothing
that has cc~ up here recently that, in other words, I thought we were pretty
close to hc~ Bernie but your being present maybe I'm wrong. But anyway, I
think that the Mayor's s~gestion is a good one.
Mayor Chmiel: I'd be willing to sit in and try to cc~ up with sc~
resolve~ent. Does anyone else wish to?
CounciL-mn Boyt: if you'd hold the~ in the evening, I'd be real interested but
I can't ti~ out of the work day to c(m~.
Mayor Chniel: Do like I do. Take a day of vacation.
Council~mn Johnson: How ~uny days of vacation do you get a year DOn?
Mayor C~iel: Just 32.
Don Ashworth: I don't think Bernie or Mr. Burdick would mind a ~eting in an
evening. I don't want to speak from either of those two.
40
City Oouncil M~eting - October 2~ 1989
Oouncilman Workman: Would meeting at Pauly's be appropos?
Mayor (~mliel: No, I don't think so. Not if we ~nt a successful cc~pletion.
Whichever. We'll get a feeling frcm you either now or you can get back to Don
and tell ~ when you'd like to sit down and give us a couple dates on each
side so we can sit down and come up with those conclusions. But I'd be willing
either during the day or in the evening.
Councilman Johnson: I'd like to then move that we assign Don and Bill to get
together some evening because I do believe this is not in the courts but before
the courts, that we really shouldn't give onto details outside of an executive
session tonight.
Mayor Ch~iel: I don't think w~ should even go into it. Just get going with the
c~mmittee meetings and go from there.
Councilman Johnson: I think that's a good idea. Do we need a motion to do
that? To make a ccemittee?
Don Ashworth: I think it'd be appropriate.
Mayor Ch~iel: Okay, we have a motion on the floor.
Councilman Johnson: Should the committee also include scmebody fr~m HRA since
this is all HRA stuff?
Mayor Chniel: I think we should, yes. Have scmebody from HRA and staff.
Councilman Johnson: We can't put you on there because that would make 3 from
the Council and we can't have 3 from the council on the com~it~.
Mayor Ch~iel: Okay, we have a motion on the floor.
Councilman Workman: What is the motion?
Councilman Johnson: The motion is to assign Don and Bill and somebody from the
HRA to be a committee.
Councilman Workman: Well I'd like to know Bill's position on...
Councilwoman Dimler: Do you have to assign ms~bers or can you leave it open?
Don Ashworth: From HRA you mean?
Councilwcman Dimler: From anybody...
Councilman Johnson: We don't ~ant a 12 person cc~mit~. I'm thinking of the
two Don's, Bill and scmebody from the HRA. Maybe 5 people at the most on this.
I don't have a second on this an.vway do I?
41
City Oouncil M~eting - October 2, 1989
CounciL"~n Johnson ~ved, OounciL-~an Work, mn seconded to appoint Mayor C2m~iel,
CounciL.mn Boyt, a m~er from HRA and the City Manager to fo~ a co~littee to
~et with Jim ~lrdick and Bernie Hanson. All voted in favor and the ~tion
carried.
Councilw~m~n Di~,]er moved, Councilman ~ork~mn seconded to adjourn the meeting.
All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:45
p .m..
Sutm~itted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
42