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1988 12 19CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING DECEMBER 19, 1988 Mayor Hamilton called the meeting to order at 5:30 p.m.. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Councilman Boyt, Councilman Horn, Councilman Geving and Councilman Johnson FUTURE COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Ursula Dimler, Tom Workman and Don Chmiel STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Larry Bro~, Steve Hanson and Jim Chaffee Mayor Ham~.lton: Larry, are you going to give us a report on the stop sign situation on West 78th Street? Larry Brown: Yes. As you may have been aware of, we are taking or have been taking traffic counts out there. We've looked at the warrants for the placement of the multiway stop sign and it does not meet the warrants according to the infamous Minnesota State Guidelines. Obviously we realize that this is not a Minnesota State Aid road so it's basically in the Counc~l's decis~_on. However, in looking at the traffic counts, it's my belief that if we do place the stop signs, during peak rush hour we're going to be backing traffic up to darn near the Great Plains intersection by the clock tower which is going to make it extremely difficult for people in the other driveways such as the R~Iveria, to make left hand turning movements from Riveria onto West 78th Street as well as the other driveways. We would like to continue analyzing this with the traff]_c study. We did follow through with Council's direction, at the previous council meeting, we've got locations out there and if the Council insists, we will proceed with putting up the stop signs tomorrow. If the Council would rather see us proceed in a way that we have been proceeding with further traffic analysis, we will do that as well. That's all I had. Councilman Horn: What were the counts? Larry Brown: For? Councilman Horn: The different directions. Larry Brown: Westbound on West 78th Street during peak rush hour we were running 610 vehicles per hour. For eastbound we are running approximately 242 vehicles per hour. For Laredo with a combined turning movement count of 109 vehicles per hour. Councilman Horn: So in effect if we put the stop sign in, we're giving the 109 the same priority as the 6107 Larry Brown: That's correct. Councilman Geving: Did you go down the street any to Great Plains Blvd. and take any counts? Council Meeting - December 19, 1988 Larry Brown: No, we did not have time to do that. We'd like to do that and proceed in that fashion. We also did take a look at the time delay for people on Laredo in trying to make their turning movements onto West 78th Street. On the average, durJ_ng those peak times, it was approximately 33 seconds that they would have to wait before making their turning movement onto West 78th Street. Althought this would be classified as a level service D wh.].ch is less than desirable, we don't feel that this is unreasonable for that peak period. Councilman Horn: What's the maximum time that you're allowed to stop traffic for say a railroad crossing or a left turn lane? Larry Brown: I don't know those off hand. I believe a railroad comes out to something like 15 minutes so that's fairly extreme and wouldn't apply to this situation. Councilman Horn: What about left turn lanes? Larry Brown: Left turn lane, I'd have to look that up. I'm not sure. Councilman Boyt: Larry, how do you determine ~nat your backup is goJ. ng to be at the stop sign? Larry Brown: We went through and analyzed an average case scenario of assuming that a person stopped, coming to a complete stop, waiting for the turning movement to take place would be stopped approximately 15 to 2g seconds. Therefore, we can analyze the inflow versus the people that are allowed to proceed through the intersection and get a faJ. rly decent idea as to how far the backlog J.s going to take place. Councilman Boyt: Let's go down to the previous stop signs we had downtown were by Pauly's liquor store. Do you have any sense for how far the traffic backup pushed back on that? Larry Brown: My experience has been, when those signs were in place, they would back up, we would que approximately 4 to 5 cars. Support 5 cars deep. That would include the right hand turning movement and the traffic which would carry straight through. Councilman Boyt: That was an intersection that not only had left turns but had, at that point, a through street to deal with and you're telling me the backup there was 4 or 5 cars and the backup here is going to be what sounds like lg times that. Don Ashworth: If I may. I've seen that intersection, the old one, the old 4 way, and that would go past Schlenk's house. I never saw it impede the TH 1~1 traffic coming down but it got almost to that point. Councilman Boyt: I would suggest that if we only have a lg9 cars trying to exit from Laredo, that's an hour, that's sort of a continuous stream of cars trying to exit there if they're waiting 33 seconds a piece. Right? Larry Brown: That's correct. City Council Meeting - December 19, 1988 Councilman Boyt: 33 seconds, I guess I don't have any good way of sensing what that is when I'm sitting in a car. Can you give me something else to relate' to? What's a typical stop light? A minute? A minutes and a half? Two minutes? Larry Brown: A typical stop light would be probably around a minute. Again, that varies across the board according to your traffic needs but just a s~.milar type situation off that service roadway would be probably a minute. Councilman Horn: The service is much better than trying to make a left turn off of TH 5 at a full intersection. Larry Brown: Most definitely. Mayor Hamilton: How about, did you look at traffic at Powers at all? Larry Brown: No, I'm sorry we did not have time to do any other counts. We had a l~mited amount of counters available. Mayor Hamilton: The westbound traffic was more than the eastbound? Larry Brown: That's correct. Councilman Geving: What day of the week and when did you do this? Larry Brown: We conducted counts on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of last week. Councilman Geving: And at what time? Larry Brown: Our counts were limited to the evening hours so obviously we're assuming that the counts would be similar. Councilman Geving: 4:0~ or 5:00 approximately? Larry Brown: We went from 2:30 up until 6:30 for the counts and analyzed the peak hours. Councilman Johnson: You missed the worst part of it then because the morning is when Laredo is used outbound so your 109 would be your inbound versus your outbound. The delays of when are you going to have only 33 second delays? I've never taken a stopwatch to it but I'm thinking at 600 cars, that's about 5 cars going by and I don't think I've ever, well every once in a while you get out there in less than 5 cars but in general you sit there. I think the count should have been, it's especially important in the morning which is the rush hour, not the evening. Larry Brown: We tried to do morning counts but failed due to the inclement weather. Our counters don't work very well in the wintertime. The batteries freeze so we ended up starting taking hand counts which was difficult enough in the evening but by analyzing the evening case scenario which seems to be a less volume situation, it still proved to be almost a hinderance to the traffic flow by backing it up. So obviously the morning case scenario may be an even worse situation. Council Meeting - December 19, 1988 Councilman Boyt: It figures that you'd probably reverse your numbers with traffic flowing in dJ. fferent direction but I think Jay's point, from my experience is a gocd one because in the evening I'll go down 78th and take a right on Laredo but I'll never go up Laredo to take a left. It's like putting your car in park. Larry Brown: In the morning you mean? CounciLman Boyt: In the morning. You just won't get through there. It's a study in frustration with traffic coming from both directions. I don't disagree with Clark when he says it's not the most dangerous intersection in town. It's just one that I think ~ can pretty easily deal with for the short term and I'd like to see us, personally I'd like to see us put stop signs up there. They may not stay there forever but I think it would be a help. Councilman Horn: Once they're in there... Councilman Geving: I don't think they should come down, that's for sure. Councilman Boyt: I think we need to restudy it. Mayor Hamilton: You can always take J.t down but if you don't put it up, you can't see what affect it would have. Councilman Horn: I haven't seen one come down. Larry Brown: Bear J.n mind, we do have a problem and I'm sure the Council is aware of it. If we put a stop sign up, people get used to it. If we take them down again, somebody comes up, stops and they get rear ended. Councilman Horn: If you put it up, you're going to have that happen. Larry Brown: Obviously our motive tonight is maybe to have you reconsider your previous decision and have us continue with this study such that we don't arrive at such a problem. Councilman Horn: That was my recommendation last week. CounciLman Boyt: I don't dJ. sagree with that and I can see the reasons why you want to do the study before you do the sign. I can see us studying this forever. We've created a thoroughfare through downtown. I'd be real interested in what's happened to the traffic flow on West 78th Street since the change. I guess I wasn't aware of the traffic being that heavy on Laredo and West 78th until the last 6 months or so. Councilman Horn: I'd like to know what we've done to create a thoroughfare. What has changed in the rerouting? Mayor Hamilton: Where it previously had to stop at Great Plains and proceeded ...to TH 1~!. Now you can take an immediate left off of TH 5, come down 78th Street and you could breeze right through, just come down TH lgl there with no stops. Councilman Horn: You still have to stop. City Council Meet~.ng - December 19, 1988 Mayor Hamilton: Where? Councilman Horn: To get down to TH 101. When you hit...you can turn whether you swing south or not. Mayor Hamilton: You can turn onto TH 101 and proceed east and there are no stops. You don't have to stop. Coming from Powers Blvd. all the way to Dakota or if you want to go north on TH 101, you don't stop at all. Councilman Horn: But that has nothing to do with this stop sign here. Mayor Hamilton: You just asked a question about a thoroughfare and I'l telling you why there's a thoroughfare there. Councilman Horn: You're explaining the wrong end of the traffic problem. You're trying to clutter the problem. The problem that causes this congestion would be if there were no stop coming westbound. There still is a stop coming westbound. We have one stop coming west just like we always did. Mayor Hamilton: Where? Councilman Horn: Going down TH 101. It's the same as it was before. I fail to see what we've changed on this intersection in rerouting it. Mayor Hamilton: We need to find out what the traffic volumes are in the morning because if you sit at Laredo and try to take a left onto 78th, the traffic volumes going east, it's impossible to make that turn. If that's the case, then there needs to be some help there to make that turn. Councilman Horn: I don't disagree with that but the argument I'm hearing is because of something we've done downtown with the redevelopment project and I fail to see that. Councilman Boyt: What you're saying is the probably is always there and we're just now dealing with it? Councilman Horn: That's right. Councilman Geving: I think though the problem really is you don't want to hinder those 600 cars that are trying to go west and quickly get them through the area at Laredo and 78th because they're trying to get somewhere. To Powers or to Kerber. I would prefer to see them keep moving. Mayor Hamilton: I'd prefer to see them slow down so they turn in and shop. Councilman Geving: They're going to do that anyway Tom. Councilman Horn: Excelsior I think tried that. Councilman Geving: But you made a statement if you backed them up there, how far would you back them up? If you put that stop sign at Laredo and 78th? Mayor Hamilton: He said he'd back them up to the Riv. City Council Meeting - December 19~ 1988 Councilman Geving: I'd bet that you would back them up well beyond that Don Ashworth: I just got some of the data there myself today and I wish we had had more time. I think that there is more of a problem in the morning. It's too bad we don't have those stat_]stics. One of the reasons I say that is that there still is a lot of cut through traffic through downtown. What's occuring is as that traffic comes in, I firmly believe they're going 40 to 50 mph in front of the new bank and it's that speed that is also hindering people from getting out there. If there were a way that we could stop even the eastbound traffic and allow westbound to go through, I think that you would really overcome the problems because you would be able to take care of that morning traffic. Letting them get out because you would be stopping the people that would be eastbound who are primarily non-Chanhassen people and you would be allowing the westbound traffic to take and move through. Again, in the morning, that westbound traffic is very, very minor. Councilman Geving: Are you saying that we need another count? The count is, are those people coming out of Powers Blvd., attempting to shortcut through the downtown area? Maybe they're going to TH 101. We don't know that. Maybe they should be going out onto TH 5 and going right through. Don Ashworth: I would have liked to have everything completed for tonight. From everything that we're knowing so far, if we were just able to stop what would be the eastbound leg of 78th, that would really help the problem but I don't know by doing more traffic management you can do things like that. Mayor Hamilton: Jay, you had a comment? Councilman Johnson: Yes, two things. One, I think traffic patterns will change when we open Market. There are people who are avoiding. A lot of it is also avoiding TH 5. I do see people come on Powers, cut clear across and then get back on TH 5. They avoid two stop lights like that. Like you say, it's a free straight shot all the way through town until you get to town. When we redo Market, things can change. People can come off of TH 5 on Market and go to Kerber. Right now if you're going to Kerber, you have to get off either at Great Plains or earlier. Most people seem to get off earlier and cut through town. Councilman Horn: Which direction are you heading Jay? Councilman Johnson: Both directions actually. What direction I'm heading? I think that the study, if we put up stop signs at this t~.me, before Market Blvd.. When is Market Blvd. going to be open to TH 5? Larry Brown: Next construction season. CounciLman Horn: If the railroad gets a crossing. Councilman Johnson: That could be another year. The regulation, whatever we do at Market Blvd. to control traffic is going to affect this intersection again too. Ci%y Council Meeting - December 19~ 1988 Councilman Geving: That's a what if though Jay. I think you've got to look at what's happening now. Let's stay with Laredo and 78th and Kerber. Councilman Johnson: Where are we at on rerouting TH 101 around downtown? Anything happen there with moving it out to TH 5 instead of cutting it through? Councilman Horn: We asked MnDot to consider doing that early and they said they would look into it. Mayor Hamilton: I would think once West 78th Street is real~_gned at the west end and change traffic patterns through and take the entry to 78th Street further away from TH 5, that should, I would think, cut down some of the easy access onto 78th what people are using now. Councilman Johnson: I did think we need a whole analysis of what's happening in downtown now as a baseline and then also look at it again when Market's open and when West 78th's realigned. We're still redoing all the road system down here. I agree that cars do get going pretty quick before they come up to there. There's also some visibility problems at that corner. That last pine tree that's planted outside the Brooke's blocks your view if you're the second car. Even if you stop right at the stop sign, you've got to slide a little bit forward to get around that last tree. Mayor Hamilton: If you stop at the stop sign, you get killed trying to make your turn from there. Councilman Boyt: We've got a chance and it certainly is appropriate to take a very inexpensive fix. Probably not a long term fix because we're going to continue to change traffic patterns but a chance to take an action that would make that individual corner somewhat safer. Right now when you're making a left turn out of Laredo, it's a dangerous situation in these high traffic periods and we have the school, the bank, Brooke's, as well as the residents over there who they either go that way or they go down residential streets someplace and I'd much rather see th~ on 78th than on a residential street. Councilman Horn: Well, the bank isn't open at that hour. The only thing that's changing is Brooke's and we used to have a gas station there anyway. Councilman Boyt: I think you'll see traffic in and out of the bank at that hour. Councilman Geving: I think there's just more traffic flow. Councilman Horn: But I don't think it's anything to do with our changes in traffic. Mayor Hamilton: I'd like to move that we table this until a complete study can be done looking at all the traffic patterns that currently exist and those that are proposed for the future including the realignment of 78th Street at the west intersection of Powers and Market Blvd. and the impact that that may have on traffic flow. Councilman Horn: Second. City Council _Meeting - Dec~nber 19, 1988 Mayor Hamilton: So the next Council can deal with it effectively[ Councilman Boyt: Would you put some kind of a time line on that? Mayor Hamilton: I think it should be completed as soon as possible. I don't know what your schedule is. I would say it should be no later than 45 days. Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to table action on installing stop signs on West 78th Street until a complete study can be done looking at all the traffic patterns that currently exist and those that are proposed for the future including the realignment of 78th Street at the west intersection of Powers and Market Blvd. and the impact that that may have on traffic flow. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PROPOSED MORATORIUM ON CONVENIENCE STORES WITH GAS PUMPS. Public Present: Name Address/Company Representing C.L. Kr istufek J.D. Filippi Joe Finley David Peder sen Charles P~n. James Bud Kaupp Roman Mueller Steven E. Amick Amoco North Star Engineering/Amoco Leonard, Street & Danail, Attorneys-Amoco Chart Villager T.F. James Company SuperAmer ica SuperAmer ica Amoco Mayor Hamilton: The next item we have to deal with was the proposed moratorium on convenience stores with gas pumps that did not include service bays. In particular Brown Standard which apparently Amoco is intending to run out of town. We've received some information here this evening that indicates that a moratorium perhaps could not be supported in court although it's perhaps worth a try. It's still rather distressing to see what is attempting to be done in our con~nunity and I think that we ought to have the ability to say, whether it's through zoning or some other means, what is built in this town and how it's built. I don't know what other alternatives we have Roger but I'd certainly like to see us pursue this in some way. Whether it's through zonJ.ng. Is that in the CBD or is that Business Highway District? Roger Knutson: Which? Mayor Hamilton: Perhaps we need to take a closer look at that. CounciLman Horn: As I read this, and maybe I didn't understand it, where it's talking about trying to put a zoning ordinance change into this effect. I missed the point that there was being a problem with a moratorium. Giving us a chance to study the zoning issue. Does this affect both? Roger Knutson: Depending on what the outcome of the moratorium would be. City Council Meeting - Dec~mber 19~ 1988 Councilman Geving: Could I ask you Roger, are you free to discuss this confidential document at this meeting tonight? We just got this so I haven't even had a chance to even look at anything over than the cover page. I came here tonight with the thought in my mind how I was going to vote on the issue and I was handed a piece of paper now that completely throws this, without having to read this multipage document, it's fairly complex and my question to you is, are we free to discuss it? Roger Knutson: It's difficult to have a frank discussion... Councilman Gevin~: I find it difficult to discuss this opening except to say this. I received three calls this weekend from people who read about this particular issue in the paper in the last week's Villager and other papers. All three of these people were either handicapped or senior citizens who · specifically told me that they do not pump their own gas. They go to a full service station where they can have gas pumped for them because they can not get out of their vehicles and I think they had a very valid point. That's the only thing that they wanted me to understand. In order for them to get the kind of service that they need as senior citizens and as handicapped, one was a handicapped person that I've known for about 15 years. They would probably have to drive out of the city to get a tankful of gas on a given day. Now I don't believe that that's the k~nd of service we need to give to our people in our con, nunity. I want to put that in the record. Mayor Hamilton: We may pass on also that being, I'm working in a business in town everyday. It was amazing to me the number of con~nents that were made by people coming into the store in a positive way of what we were trying to accomplish. I think most of those comments were to the effect that we have enough convenience stores, why would we need to have another one. They were all very positive about what we were attempting to do so we have a lot of support of the co, unity of what we're attempting to do. Councilman Boyt: I would suggestion, having glanced through this, that what this is saying is that we can't require an operation to have service bays but there are all sorts of other avenues to take here. One of th~n is, I would think would be very similar to what we've tried to do with contractor's yards in limiting concentration. Mayor Hamilton: That was exactly what I had in mind when I suggested this thing. We've done that with contractor's yards, why can't we accomplish the same thing with not only this business but others of the nature that you don't need to have one on every block. Councilman Boyt: I would think Tom that it might be appropriate sort of as a bit of information gathering, to hear what Amoco might have to say. I know at least one of the council elect has a strong opinion about this if you want to open this up for some other con~ents. Mayor Hamilton: I guess we can hear from Amoco if they want to speak. Joe Finley: My name is Joe Finley. I'm an Attorney for _Amoco. I'm a private practitioner in Minneapolis. Is this on the record? Larry Brown: Yes, we do have it on tape here. Council Meeting - December 19, 1988 Joe Finley: I practice at 150 South 5th Street, Suite 2300, Minneapolis 554~3 and my name is Joe Finley. I'm not sure what the document is that you're passing around so my con~ents may, at this point, not be as germane as I had thought. I was here to ask you not to enact a moratorium today, as you can probably guess, because I feel it's premature. From what I understand from talking to my client with the background on this, they proposed to build an Amoco station. That station has leaking underground storage tanks. The Pollution Control Agency wants it fixed up and they're going to clean up the site and rebuild the station in a manner that their lease provides. I know Mr. Brown has provided a letter to the Council saying a few thinqs and it makes it sound as though it's a un]lateral decision by Amoco just to %ear down his station and leave him hanging. I've reviewed his lease and he signed a lease last year, in the surrraer of last year, allowing this very thing that Amoco proposes to do right now. What I really want to talk about though, very briefly, I know everybody probably wants to get on, is the function of a moratorium under Minnesota law. Moratoriums are generally used for two things. Either where there's a lot of development pressure on the city and they simply can't cope with it. They may call a halt for a minute and say we've got to rethink what our ordinance says or maybe our ordinance is silent. That's one area. The area where it's really used mostly, whether it's a major intrastructure improvement, new park or something big like that, you want to make the zoning compatible with it. That's not the situation here. There's not much pressure. There's really one pending application, Amoco and I understand one that's already been approved. I think what's happening is the City is being asked to interpose itself to do something by zoning that really isn't a zoning matter. ~nat's possibly to act on Mr. Brown's behalf because he's not happy now with his bargain with Amoco. But when Amoco looks at it down the road, they're trying to put a station in here which will meet the marketing demands. What people want now. There's all kinds of literature I think that Amoco or their consultant would be happy to provide to you that shows that the station that they want to build is what people want right now. They also want to clean up a site that has leaking tanks. To me, as not only a real estate but an environmental attorney, that's a very salutory goal and if you tell them that they can't do anything out there, I think there's, the social policies that are not being weighed correctly. Possibly with, I just want to speak for one second about the legal test of a moratorium and that's maybe what Roger's memo is about. There's a case called the Ohlmquist case that says when you enact a moratorium it's got to be in good faith and non-discriminatory and it's also, it can not affect adversely people who relied substantially on the old ordinance. I think that's pretty much black letter law in Minnesota. Because of that, many times people enact ordinances, moratoriums that say from this point forward, any application that comes in is governed by this moratorium. Really Amoco would have no objection, I believe, if you pass that sort of moratorium that said things that are in the fire already, in process, underway, where people have relied on your existing statute, are not covered by the moratorium but things in the future are. That's fair to the people who are bringing in proposals. They know. The resolution's there. It's also fair to the people who have already brought in a proposal. They're treated under the rules that were in place as they moved forward. If you're serious about the moratorium. If you're serious about trying to address the problems you perceive, I'd suggest that kind of moratorium. One where you distinquish between the people who have already made application, are working, and those in the future. If you choose a broader moratorium, and that's assuming that you want to move forward at all, there are 10 City Council Meeting - December 19, 1988 a number of problems that are probably discussed in the memorandum you have circulating. One is that the specific language of the resolution I've seen at least, would lead you to an ordinance that was recently declared unconstitutional in the city of Eagan and I don't know if it's really a valid public purpose to send somebody off to study enacting an ordinance which a Minnesota Court has already told cities is unconstitutional. I think that just because of Mr. Brown's letter to the Council, because of the timing of this which seemed to a lot of people, maybe not councilmembers but other people, it looks as though the purpose of this moratorium is to address the request of a single person and not really the city's needs and that really, I want to fall to this case. That's another reason too why when cities enact ordinances, they often make them prospective. Looking forward and they don't have them affect projects in process. I don't want to belabor that anymore. I think that's .what Amoco would like to say. I'd be happy to take questions but if you do enact an ordinance, I'd rather have it be prospective than one that covered the board. Mayor Hamilton: I'm sure you would. Do you have any questions? Councilman Geving: Joe, is it Amoco's intent to provide a service bay with their reconstructed facility? Joe Finley: My understanding is it's not. That they're going to change the facility. Councilman Geving: And my second question, would it provide full service? Chris Kristufek:It has the capability of that. Joe Finley: I don't think they've addressed that. When you were discussing the comments up there, that's something that I realized I wasn't aware of myself. Councilman Geving: You have the capability, would you expand on that please sir? Chris Kristufek: Sure, I'm Chris Kristufek with Amoco. The pumping equipment that will be installed at that station has the capability of being full served and self served at the same time. It could be split. My guess is that Mr. Brown, who likely is going to be the operator of that station, could well split one of those dispensers and have a full serve island, yes. It's certainly well within his perogative to do so. Mayor Hamilton: What's preventing that facility from being constructed similar to the one that's in Buffalo on Hwy 127 Right out of downtown Buffalo that has food service, videos, has all the junk that you want to have in there plus it has service. Chris Kristufek: I'm not certain that I know which station you're specifically talking about. Mayor Hamilton: The Amoco station in Buffalo. I'm sure it's the only one there. It's right on Hwy 12. Chris Kristufek: I think if it's the one that I'm thinking to, it's owned by one of our jobs, is not an Amoco constructed facility but rather by an outside 11 City Council Meeting - Decamber 19, 1988 individual. It is different than the one that we would build here and the site plans that were before the City called for a 24 foot by 44 foot what we call a food shop. Really small facility with a remote car wash, full canopy and 4 electronic MPD's. MPD's being a dispenser. Councilman Horn: I don't know where you get the impression that we're preventing you from fixing the leak. That's something that needs to be attended to and to me is totally irrelevent to what's before us now. It's another issue that has to be addressed. I don't understand what you're trying to say there. Joe Finley: It's two things. If we can't get, if I read the language of the ordinance correctly, if we can't get any sort of permit to do anything, whether that's building permit, excavation, anything, I don't know if we could, but it's really more a social. How do we use the resources to decide it? Do we go in and do it twice? Do we dig the whole thing up and then dig it all up again later? It makes more sense to me that if they're going to raise and rebuild the station, there is no better time to haul out all the tanks...might be necessary to put in their tanks. It's very disruptive to do that. It's disruptive to the operator. It's disruptive to everybody. I don't know why you'd want to disrupt once for quite a while and then disrupt again to rebuild it. I say it more in the practical sense. I don't see why you'd take two hits at it when one is sufficient to minimize the disruption. Councilman Horn: When was this leak discovered? Joe Finley: I think the leak was discovered last year but the letter from the MPC is very recent. Just the last few days. Mayor Hamilton: They had a leak over a year ago when that street was dug up. There was a question about some leakage and I think it was proven that there wasn't any leakage. That it was merely spillage on the ground that created the problem and the MPC was called in and they had no problem with it. Somebody changed their mind but... Councilman Horn: Do we know in fact there is a problem or some speculated problem? Joe Finley: No, this is not speculation. It's dated December 16th. Councilman Horn: You also mentioned a market study. Does this market study say the service is not economically feasible in this area? Joe Finley: If I mentioned a specific market study, I think I misspoke. I meant that there's a ~nole generation of market studies which are showing that by far the greatest demand for services is towards the type of facility that Amoco wants to build. Councilman Horn: You weren't looking at a specific market study on this site? You were referring to a generic nationwide market study? Joe Finley: Yes. There are, it's something that are materials collected not only by our client but I think they were good enough to bring along an article in the Wall Street Journal that was just published on these types of studies. It's not some secret of Amoco's. It's a way the entire industry is moving and I 12 City Council Meeting - December 19, 1988 think their point is that zoning, and this is the point that he can take, that for zoning to be rationally related to the public welfare, you generally try to find a relationship between what people want and what the zoning requires. Not that the zoning requires the opposite of what people want. That argument carries some weight with the Judge in the Eagan case. I just wanted to make you aware that it's not just a flip statement when Amoco says this is the type of facility people want. There has been mountains and mountains of papers and studies devoted to this and I think they finally, just as a practical matter, when they looked at the different type of stations, the station they want to build is what people want. Especially in developing areas. Mayor Hamilton: You should probably ask the people in this town. Councilman Horn: I think we're dealing on a specific case here and what I see happening here. You have your interpretation which I don't agree with on what the problem is. My interpretation is, what we're seeing here is we're seeing an overabundance of one particular type of use or service to the corrmunity and we' re seeing another valuable service going away. That's my perspective. It has nothing to do with what one individual owner is trying to do. It has to do with the overall co, unity and it has to do with the service level that our citizens get. We've already got a whole bunch of convenience stores in this town. From a good planning aspect, anybody knows who's planning one, that you don't put the same kind of building all concentrated into one area. That's what prompted the thing on our part and we're losing valuable services that the rest of the con~nunity needs and that's a perspective I'm looking at it from. Mayor Hamilton: I think you're right Clark. I think the way Amoco looks at it is strictly economics. They realize that the station across the street, the Holiday, is one of the largest volume Holiday stores in the Twin Cities area and they feel that they're losing dollars because of that so they want to compete with them so they can get their amount of the fair share. I think it's strictly an economic reason for th~ to do this. If they...out the City, they could care less what the people want. Councilman Horn: And if they did a marketing study on that corner, they'd find out why. All you've got to do is compare prices. Councilman Boyt: I suspect that maybe each of us has a different reason for proposing this particular moratorium. Mine is directed at the issue of convenience stores and I think and have thought for a ~nile that we don't have sufficient regulations in our city to assure ourselves that we're moving in the right direction on convenience stores. Whether they've got gas pumps or don't have gas pumps. I think what we did with TH 41 and TH 7, although there certainly wasn't unanimous agreement by the Council on that, reflected our concerns about issues like the number of employees that are in a convenience store at any one time. The hours of operation as well as the types of services offered by that convenience store. These are issues that need to be cleared up. I guess in all honesty I can't conceive that that particular corner is going to end up probably any other way than the way you want it to be. I have a little difficulty penalizing this particular operation when I think the end result is probably going to be that given the business highway district, we're going to have to allow service stations in that. When we do that, we are probably going to have to offer some sort of options on their part as to how they want to build that building. But I think there are a lot of issues that need studying here. 13 City Council Meeting - December 19, 1988 Those issues will impact you. I guess frc~ the standpoint of looking at harm~ you've got a functioning gas station there right now. We're not denying you the right to use that and I'd like to see this issue studied. I am a little disturbed that it happens to fit into the plans of one particular business person because I think the issue is much bigger than that. It impacts the whole city as I see it. Joe Finley: I think we're very close in agreeing if we could just call Amoco out of the moratorium for that reason. Make it a prospective plan. It would, I think, relieve some of your discomfort that an outside...other than a true salutory public policy to review... Mayor Hamilton: What Bill just said is certainly all of our objectives and we're not going to leave Amoco out of this I guess. Chris Kristufek: The building that we have on the corner is 25 years old and it needs some major repair work. We have a frost heating problem. It shifts every year with the climate that we live in. We need to correct that problem. It has used it's life fullness. It needs to be replaced. During the timeframe that we have been studying, and it's been for several years that we have studied what we want to do on that corner, there have been several proposals brought forward by other developers in your city to develop the balance of the property and I'd like to refer to it and this is not accurate by any means but the Hanus property. It also includes the cement facility up on the corner. There have been several proposals, some of which I have in my briefcase, of the development that would include things such as an automall. Those folks have been at my office and have asked me if I would be interested in participating in an automall type concept which would provide automotive service to the motoring public. My co~ment to those folks was that no, I am not interested in those kinds of things because I have my own corner that I own and control in which to sell gasoline on. At the same time Mr. Brown was given that information and I understand did make contact with those folks ~no were selling that property, however we wish to describe it and one of the words that were used by Mr. Brown to me, that he was shocked. Shocked meaning that he had made an offer on the property and 3g minutes later his offer was cut, if you will, and he became the low bidder rather the high bidder on that property. The same thing happened on another vacant piece of property adjacent to that where he did attempt to locate or attampt to buy property for his service center. My point is this, that Mr. Brown was aware and did agree as Mr. Finley has previously indicated, at his agreement to our rebuild proposal. Mr. Brown certainly can build a repair facility someplace in your community. He's involved in other automotive related businesses now. I'm not certain whether they're in Chanhassen or whether they' re outside of your community but nonetheless he's involved in those kinds of things. He's not only just an Amoco dealer. He's certainly welcome to stay as our dealer. And one other point that I wish to make to you. Mr. Brown's business is... He has made an offer. Verbal offer to us to buy him out of his business. He has not reduced that to writing as we have requested but he has made it somewhat verbal. So the point is, ].f we're really not running Mr. Brown out of business. I think the letter that was circulated to you, the copy of which I have is not addressed to anyone nor is it dated. By the way, he did not provide us a copy of that nor has he appeared at any of these meetings. Staff or Planning Commission meetings that we have had. The public hearings that have been held. He certainly is welcome to stay and remain our dealer. We are not putting him out of business. 14 City Council Meeting - December 191 1988 Councilman Horn: To me that's a private matter that's totally unrelated to what we're discussing. That has nothing to do with what we're discussing. Chris Kristufek: I think you need to be aware of some of the issues. Mayor Hamilton: I'm completely aware of thsm. Gary happens to be a very good friend of mine and he's told me all these things as I'm sure most of you are well aware of what's taken place. It's always one sided. Councilman Geving: I think you have to understand that we're charged with the responsibility of providing service to our people. The residents demand medical care, fire care, hospital care. We provide all of these kinds of services in our community and a place to be able to shop. A place to be able to fix your car when it's necessary is just another one of those services. Whether it's Mr. Brown's or anyone elses, that is not a concern of mine. What we're trying to do is reserve a service for residents. That service is a bay or to have your car fixed or for the resident that I talked about earlier who was a disabled person, to have a full service gas station pump. That's what we're talking about in terms of services that we want for our con~nunity and our residents. Not Mr. Brown or any other dealer. Mayor Hamilton: Roger, I guess I'd like to hear your opinion. If you could give us some assistance in how fast you think we should resolve this thing. Or perhaps not resolve it this evening but how we can deal with it this evening so it can be dealt with at a future date. Roger Knutson: I guess there are all sorts of options available to you. One would have to do with a moratorium ordinance that we presented to be modified. ...referenced to gas pumps or service bays in the moratorium... Or three, you could not pass anything tonight and ask your planning director to study it. Come back to you at a time when he thinks it's appropriate with an analysis of the issues and what he thinks are the best solutions. Councilman Johnson: The Amoco proposal got tabled at the last council meeting and prior to that tabling I has asked to put on the agenda an item to consider the convenience store issue. It was out of the convenience store, my item, that was scheduled after the Amoco item, that the moratorium idea came up. As far as being specifically aimed at Gary Brown and the situation there because as we look at it, now we're going to have two of the same on the corner with the prospects of having two more across the street. Is that good planning for the City? I still think we need to do the moratorium. I'd like to hear from the Attorney on one thing on whether the prospective versus doing it on all the things. They've been going through the planning process now for 3 or 4 months and I think that does lay with me a little bit. The other thing is, this letter from the MPCA does not say you have a leaking underground storage tank. It says you found some gas in the ground and they'd like you to study it. It's about time they got around to asking you to study it since it was September of 1987 that it was discovered. The State Pollution Control Agency strikes again. It could quite well mean that your tanks aren't leaking but it could mean that they are. I would assume that by now you've probably already done a tank test on them and you would know for sure from your tank test. A tank test of course would tell us whether or not they leak. That's a differnt issue altogether. 15 Council Meeting - Deca~ber 19, 1988 Roger Knutson: Let me just point out that the Amoco situation is not the only situation that would have an in~nediate impact on this. There are others... Councilman Johnson: There's also the PDQ over at 78th but I think they've run out of time on their permit. I don't know if anybody's checked on that yet or not. It's been about a year since we approved them. Don Ashworth: There was other language though that we discussed which was basically to say that would apply to everyone who had not received prior approval. Roger Knutson: That's a possibility. Don Ashworth: Do you have that wordage available if the Council were to go that direction this evening? Staff would recon~nend that you do that in this particular case. Councilman Johnson: I'd like to also get rid of the group gas pumps without a service bay part of it which is one of my concerns but just leave it as convenience stores and look at it in a broader point of view. This is more specific than what my intent was. My intent was to look at convenience stores and how should we be regulating convenience stores in this town? Give us a chance to sit back and look at these before very many more proposals came in. It's amazing what'.s on the horizon. Councilman Boyt: I have a comment. First, your study about convenience stores and their desirability, probably wouldn't take serious issue with that since we just approved one within the last 2 years right across the street here. We just had one built at TH 41 and TH 7 and the one that hasn't been built yet down at the end of West 78th Street. But you said one of the conditions of a moratorium was that you were inundated and I think the sense of the Council, of this particular Council is that we are and that it's time to take a look. It's always difficult when any of us try to manage issues that are heavily economic. It's certainly very tempting to say let's have a lasaifaire government structure that says the economy can make all decisions but we don't do that anywhere. The sense that I have is that we're going to say to Amoco and to others that propose convenience stores and it may very well have an impact on downtown development because as I say, everybody wants one, that we simply want some time to look... How long do you think it would take you, given the current planning load, to do a study that could give us a sense of what direction to take with convenience stores? Steve Hanson: I would say, again based on the case loads we've got, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 days, 3 weeks t~me. Councilman Boyt: So if we said 6 months, we'd be safe? Steve Hanson: Yes. Councilman Boyt: Now 6 months would put us into June. I imagine you'd like to be optimistic and think that you could break ground on this project in April? Jim Finley: I think their optimism would be... 16 City Council Meeting - December 19, 1988 Chris Kristufek: We're ready to go. Jim Finley: Yes. Councilman Boyt: You don't have a lot of ground to break and you can do it now. Jim Finley: There's one thing I'd like to interject too. If this tends more towards a broad study of convenience stores rather than the resolution I understood which is you can't have a gas station without a repair bay. That's what we heard. I think maybe my plan would change a bit at the characterization of the size of the convenience store. Most convenience stores are several thousand square feet. They're a little shopping and they may have a gas pump that's incidental to it. I don't think that's really what Amoco is thinking of doing. This is going to be a gas station. It's going to pump gasoline. There's going to be a 400 square foot place to buy a sandwich or something. It's not really a convenience store in the sense that you're looking at either. It isn't a legal point but I just wanted to convey what I think my feelings about being regulated as a convenience store. Councilman Boyt: If I might respond. Given the narrowness of, clearly we'll have to define convenience store somewhere in our moratorium here but it's quite possible, since this is such a shall part of your operation, that you can go ahead and pursue what you were going to do. Just don't put in things that we're going to define as a convenience store until they're approved. That's another possibility I suppose but you've got the people who can make those sorts of judgements. It's my sense from where Council's going that maybe Tom's ready for a motion. Mayor Hamilton: Yes I am. I'd like to move for the passage of an interim ordinance temporarily prohibiting the issuance of land use approvals and building permits for convenience stores in the CBD and BH Districts. There are three Sections. I think each of you has a copy but I'll make some changes. I'll read the intent is for this ordinance to allow the City to complete a study concerning the appropriate land use controls for the regulation of convenience stores period. And in the interim, to protect the planning process for the safety and welfare of the citizens of the con~nunity. Section 2, keep the last sentence. Again I'm going to say, no land use approvals or building permits shall be issued for convenience stores in the CBD or BH zoning districts. Section 3, the date shall be changed to July 1, 1989. Section 4 would say, convenience stores approved by the City Council prior to the effective date of this ordinance are exempt from it. Councilman Geving: I'll second the motion. Councilman Boyt: I would propose to amend the date Tom back to May 1st. Mayor Hamilton: What are you thinking? Councilman Boyt: Well, Steve has indicated that he thinks it can be done in 4 months. Roger Knutson: You can always extend the moratorium later if you haven't completed your study then. 17 City Council Meeting - December 19, 1988 Councilman Geving: The only thing I would question of Steve is doing the job and I don't think he really understands what he's going to be doing in the next 4 months. I'd like to give him as much time as possible to do it right. I believe the 6 months, if we need more time that's one thing but if we get to a point where you're ready to come back to the Council within the 6 months, than you've gained there too. You might be ready in April but I think rather than to ...him, I think the 6 months is a reasonable amount of time. This is a major study. It's going to take some real thought on the part of the planners and city councJ. 1. I believe we should stay with July 1, 1989. Councilman Horn: I think too the new council has the option of cutting the timeframe back if the study comes J.n faster. Mayor Hamilton: I would like to also make one other correction and that would be that the districts include the CBD, Business Highway and Business Neighborhood. Councilman Geving: I'll amend your motion. Councilman Boyt: Now these are ones that have not been previously approved? Mayor Hamilton: Yes. Councilman Johnson: I think that currently we're probably farming out a lot of our planning functions as we've gone fr~m two planners to one to none and then the next day we get back to one. I think this is a good candidate for farming out to a group. I think it can be dealt more efficiently by a planning group with wider contacts than Steve has as of yet. Mayor Hamilton: I think that's a decision that should be the City Manager's and the Planner's to work out. Not ours. Councilman Johnson: I think the 4 month timeframe is adequate. Mayor HamJ_lton: That's why I'm suggesting July 1st. We tend to put ourselves into a box oftentimes because we cut our timeframe short and I think July 1st is a good one. Yes Charlie. Charlie James: Mr. Mayor, my name is Charlie James and I'm with the James Company as you may recall. I wanted to get a clarification here on our circumstances. We have every intention of proceeding with our 22,000 square foot building out here. As a matter of fact, they're doing some utility work ut there and we just got caught up in several other shopping centers this fall that we kind of let this one kind of go until spring but we have done all the specifics of grading correction for the area and putting gasoline tanks in that area alone. I know that that item alone was $14,0~.00 because that's got to be picked up by that particular operator. Roger Knutson: You're not affected by this ordinance. Charlie James: That's what I wanted to know because we are already out to bid and have contracts ready to go. Councilman Geving: That' s number 4. 18 City Council M~eting - December 19, 1988 Roger Knutson: You're already approved~ Charlie James: I just wanted that clarification for the record. Thank you. Councilman Boyt: I've got a question of Amoco. Mr. Finley has indicated, I think you sense the concern, at least from the convenience store standpoint, if I gather that correctly. I'm wanting to strike some sort of a'time line that Amoco says that they can live with, that the City says we can produce by. I would like us to not push this thing into an upscale conflict if we can avoid it by striking some sort of time line agreement. Councilman Horn: I don't think the time line... I don't know where that's an issue. Councilman Boyt: I think that Amoco has several different directions that it can go with this thing. I would like to leave the room with an agreement that we can all live with. Recognizing that may not be possible because the City's position here s~mewhat counterpoints to Amoco's. But recognizing that, I think we might be able to negotiate this thing to a happier situation. Councilman Horn: I guess what made me comfortable with what we're doing was Mr. Finley's definition of what you need to have a moratorium. While he correctly stated that that it~ doesn't apply to us. Item 1, the fact that we're getting a lot of development pressure. We need time to study it to find out what the affect is for us, is exactly the situation we're in. We fit that definition perfectly and I feel what we're doing here is right in line with that. Joe Finley: I don't want to speak for my client but I think kmoco's concern is although the time line is part of the concern because they have plans and now the plans are being disrupted, but the concern that I think drives th~ to call me up and have me come down is not that they can't build for 4 months but that there's a fundamental change going on in the zoning that will mean that a facility that in their mind is obsolete, can not be brought forward to what people what. That it will be frozen in tJ~e like a flying amber. That that just isn't what Amoco has planned for that station and that the role of zoning is to limit uses but not to force people to use their property in any one specific way. I just don't know of any zoning predicate that forces people to use property a certain way. It often says you can't use it this way but they can't force you to do something. What I hear in this meeting is that we want to force Amoco to do something that they don't want to do. You want to force the~ to keep open bays even though they consider it not economically feasible. Mayor Hamilton: Perhaps Amoco would like it if we woulde just throw our ordinances out and they could do any darn thing they please. That's what you're saying. Of course, they'd love it because they could come in here and do any darn thing they want. We want to develop our town the way we want it to be developed. Not the way Amoco wants it developed. If they want to be a good person and a good neighbor in this community, you'd think they'd try to work with us. That's all we're saying. Come on in here and work with us. We're saying that we know better what this community needs and wants better than Amoco does. 19 City Council Meeting - December 19, 1988 Joe Finley: I think Amoco wants to work with you. I think there's a feeling that when a moratorium like this comes up, at least out of the blue for them, they feel like they're being sandbagged. They feel like they're being told we don't want to work with you. We want to tell you what to do and we don't want to work with you. M~ybe there's a misunderstanding here but... Mayor Hamilton: I think you're misunderstanding what we're trying to say. You're not listening. Councilman Horn: The other problem is, if we're not telling them they can't do what they found economically feasible and do for the last 20 years, I don't believe that station is losing money. Nobody's telling them they can't continue doing what they're doing. They're going in there and saying hey, we're going to take you out. That's a whole different story. That's not what we' re doing. There's nothing that prevents them from continuing their viable business that they have going right now. Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Geving seconded to approve an interim ordinance temporarily prohibiting the issuance of land use approvals and building permits for convenience stores in the CBD, BH and BN Districts. There are three Sections. The intent for this ordinance is to allow the City to complete a study concerning the appropriate land use controls for the regulation of convenience stores. In the interim, to protect the planning process for the safety and welfare of the citizens of the community. Sect]on 2, keep the last sentence and again say, no land use approvals or building permits shall be issued for convenience stores in the CBD, BH or BN zoning districts. Section 3, the date shall be changed to July 1, 1989. Section 4 would say, convenience stores approved by the City Council prior to the effective date of this ordinance are exempt from it. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Councilman Johnson moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 6:45 p.m.. Submitted by Don Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 20