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1988 05 23187 CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING MAY 23, 1988 Mayor Hamilton called the meeting to order. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMMMBERS PRESENT: Councilman Boyt and Councilman Johnson COUNCI~ERS ABSENT: Councilman Gevimg and Councilman Horn STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Gary Warren, Larry Brown, Barbara Dacy, Jo Ann Olsen, Todd Gerhard, Lori Siets~ma and Roger Knutson APPROVAL OF AGfINI)A: Councilman Boyt moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to approve the agenda with the following additions: Councilman Johnso~ wanted to discuss Cheyenne w~tland and posting of dumping areas urger Council presentations; Councilman Boyt wanted to discuss lot size and landmark trees under Council presentations and Don Ashworth ~anted to discuss Church Road. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONSENT AGf~DA: Councilman Johnson moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to approve the following Consent Agenda it~m~ pursuant to the City Manager's reccumendations: a. Resolution ~88-45:_ Reappointment of Pat Swanson to the Housing and RedeveloI~nent Authority. c. Findings of Fact, Sunnyslope Homeo~rs Association, Variance to lot width and lot area requir~nents for a recreatioDm] beachlot. d. Findings of Fact, Sever Paterson Preliminary Plat Extension. e. Approval of Ordinance for Cable TV Ownership Transfer, Final Reading. f. Approval of Develolane~t Contract for West Village Heights 2nd Addition, Charlie James. g. Approval of Develolanent Contract for Eight Acre Wood, Eric Cmnton. i. Approve Amendment to Larson First Addition Platting Agre~nent. j. Approval of Park and Recreation 1988 Capital Improvement Program. k. Approval of Accounts. 1. City Council Minutes dated May 9, 1988 Planning Cc~nission Minutes dated May 4, 1988 Park and Recreation Commission Minutes dated April 26, 1988 Park and Recreation Omn~ission Minutes dated May 10, 1988 All voted in favor and the motion carried. Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 CONSENT AGENDA: (B) CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A PRIVATE STABLE, 3931 ASTER TRAIL, DALE COLLINS. Councilman Boyt: What I would like to see happen here, according to the discussion of the Planning Comnission, it appears to be a reasonable use of the property being that it's 5 acres. My problem with it is that it sits on property zoned residential single family. I think if that parcel is split up, an 1,800 square foot pole barn ~Duld be inappropriate. I would like to see us put a condition on this that should the property be subdivided, the pole barn would be removed. Mayor Hamilton: Wouldn't that be a hardship to a conditional use that we look at annually? Councilman Boyt: We can put this down as one of the conditions of approval. Don Ashworth: When you buy property you have the authority to establish any conditions at that point in time. ~ne removal of structure as a part of their filing would be a normal condition. Would you like to designate that at this time, that's fine. Councilman Johnson: You could have more...making that a condition if this is already stated. Councilman Boyt: It states an intention. I don't think it does damage to anyone. It provides a protection to us frcm that... Mayor Hamilton: Mr. Collins, do you understand what Bill is suggesting? Do you have any problems with that. Dale Collins: No, I can live with that. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to approve the Conditional Use Permit for a Private Stable at 3931 Aster Trail for Dale Collins as presented with the addition of a condition that upon the property being subdivided the pole barn will be removed. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONSENT AGENDA: (H) APPROVAL OF CHURCH ROAD EASEMENT AGREEMENT. Gary Warren: Just today we received the cost estimate fr~n Northfield, the contractor for the Church Road, the force main construction for the M~tropolitan Waste Control Commission and because they're going to be out working on Church Road basically starting even today, we need to get Council approval of change order amounts suggested by the contractor so he can go ahead and do the sanitary sewer and watermain improv~ts that you had earlier authorized. Tne handout that I gave you earlier here is their cost estimate. Basically for your information, the northern part they estimated $13,608.00 is actually about $2,000.00 underneath our engineer's estimate and the southern half which was estimated at $22,957.00 to improve the watermain came out $2,000.00 over because of water connections that were missed in the plans. Basically, there are my Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 quotes and request Council authorizatlon222 Mayor Hamilton: Since w~ pulled this off ~hy don't we just...Shorewood's r~ndation. I know that they maintain the park. It wasn't clear to me where the line is between Shorewood and Chanhassen in that area. Gary Warren: 62nd Street. Mayor Hamilton: Down the middle? Gary Warren: I'd have to verify that. Mayor Hamilton: I guess I was just curious why we were asking them to cooperate with your...approximate $13,000.00. Normally that is s(xnething... I'm not aware that they have the wearathol to not give us the eas~nent for this project if we don't do what they're asking us to do. I think they're not totally unreasonable things except that trees that are damaged be replaced with trees of equal caliper. I think it would be more reasoDmhle for you to take trees out of our own nursery to replace them and less expensive. Gary Warren: The Co~mission has already, frc~ what I'm told, reimbursed Shorewood to get the eas~nent for the forc~main construction. Basically-the City has ~n compensated for trees out there so I would be very surprised to see if we got anything further on rei~bur~t. Mayor Hamilton: So it's not really an out of pocket expense for us? That's all. Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to approve the Church Road Eas~nent Agreement with tt~ noted additions. All voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Mayor Hamilton presented Certificates of Appreciations to Howard Noziska and Robert Siegel for their years of involv~ent on the Planning Commission. Mayor Hamilton was also presented with a Certificate of Recognition to the City from the Senior Ommm~nity Services just prior to the meeting. PUBLIC HEARING: TAX INCREMI~IT DISTRICT NO. 2-1 AND ~IC DEVELO~ DISTRICT, CITY OF CHANHASS~. Mayor Hamilton called the public hearing to order. Mayor Hamilton: Is there a motion to close the public hearing? Councilman Johnson: Don's recxxm~ldation is to table action... Mayor Hamilton: Even if we close tt~ public hearing, the public can make cc~lent. Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 Councilman Johnson: You want to reopen another public hearing in the future when all the information is available? Mayor Hamilton: No, the public hearing lasts for a period of, the public hearing for this particular meeting... Don Ashworth: You're waiting to receive comments from both the school district and the County. I 'm on their agenda for Tuesday but whether you open or close it or leave it open, as long as everyone recognizes that we are going to be receiving that, I don't know if there is a procedural problem. Maybe Roger could chose an alternative. Roger Knutson: Since the School Board and the County haven't been notified, ...you may wish to leave the hearing open. I think it would be best to leave the hearing open. Mayor Hamilton: Don, do you want to give us your co~ents? Don Ashworth: In light of the fact that...has testified and that the item will be coming back, I would like to defer my report. Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to table the public hearing on the Tax Increment District No. 2-1 and Economic Development District until the next meeting. All voted in favor and motion carried. KERBER BOULEVARD ROADWAY IMPROVEMENTS. Mayor Hamilton: We received t_he bids for roadway improvements. I don' t know if you guys need anything additional. Councilman Boyt: I have a comment. My question is, what's the status on wetland alteration permits on Kerber Boulevard? Gary Warren: There was a meno to the Adminstrative Packet at the last meeting concerning the need for a wetland alteration permit. That m~mo basically said that we had procccded with the filling along Kerber Blvd. as part of our emergency measures on the downtown retention basin. Jim Leach who was involved, Jim looked at that. He was scheduled to look at it but he was the person to look at wetlands and give us an opinion as far as the condition. Councilman Boyt: Alright. As long as we're making some progress. It se~ms to me that scmebody is dumping there. Is that the City that's adding fill to that area? Gary Warren: The fill that is out there, some came from Retail West construction over here and ~ have a sign out there now in response to that. There should not be anything. I went by it again to make sure. Councilman Boyt: Are we going to do something to stabilize that slope? Chanhassen City Council - May 23~ 1988 1_91 Gary Warren: Part of Kerber Blvd., the plans and specs we have included the installation of wood fiber blankets along that whole side slope after it's seeded and that will be done as a part of the contract. Councilman Boyt: That's all I have. Mayor Hamilton: I have the same concern as you do Bill. I see no reason why w~ can't plant oats or rye grass on the side of that hill right now so if it rains it will grow and at least hold the dirt frc~ running off there. If w~ get a hard rain w~'re just washing dirt down to the pond down there. Gary ~rren: W~'ve got hay bales all along the down slope side of the hill there. We will be, as a part of the Kerber Blvd. improvements, you recall we will be putting a trail up on the top side there and a lot of that top surface area ar~ some of the side slopes .will be modified as a result of construction. Mayor Hamilton: What does it cost to put some oats or some rye grass in? It can't be very expensive. Gary Warren: $500.00 to $600.00. Part of what' s missing is that there isn't a lot of black dirt out there. You just have clay and until there's topsoil, you will have difficulty growing almost anything right now. If you put the bales out there ar~ they will stabilize that until we do get the construction going where we would have the black dirt and take care of it properly. Mayor Hamilton: Perhaps we should think about making a second fence so that you're filtering as much as possible should we get a heavy rain. I think we should take some precautions. Councilman Johnson: My question is how does the master plan for Chan Pond Park fit in with the changes to that hill? Has Park and Bec ~ coordinated on this one? I know tomorrow night's meeting they have a master plan for that park up on their board. Don Ashworth: Frem the engineer's meeting out on the field with them to go through the plans for this approval and Koegler is meeting there as well. Resolution #88-46: Councilman Johnson moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to award the bid for the Kerber Boulevard Roadway Improv~nents to Lmperial Developers in the anount of $336,379.30. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ZONING ORDINANCE AMENEMENT TO AMEND SECTION 2~-263 (6 & 7) GF THE RECREATIONAL BEACHLOT ORDINANCE TO AMEND THE LOT DEPTH REQUI~ FOR A DOCK AND ONE CANOE RAf/K/DOCK REQUIRf~ENT, FIRST READING, ROBERT PIERCE. Mayor Hamilton: Since this item requires a four-fifths vote to pass or deny and we do not have four people here, the Council will have to ~hle this item until our next regularly scheduled meeting. Councilman Johnson: It only takes two votes to deny but four votes to pass. Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 Mayor Hamilton: I think in all fairness to the applicant we should have the full Council here. That's exactly what we did last time and I see no reason we should take the opportunity to deny it now without the full Council. Councilman Boyt: I supposed I can meet with staff after the meeting. There are some items I would like them to look at in regards to this. Better after the meeting than now. Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to t~_ble the Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Amend Section 20-263 (6 & 7) until a full Council is present. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PARTIAL VACATION OF WEST 64TH STREET, HSZ DEVELOPERS. Mayor Hamilton: Barbara, we' ve covered this item rather thoroughly the first time and I would like to have you just perhaps review briefly the position that you left us with last time we discussed it and perhaps where we're at today. What has take~ place since that time. Barbara Dacy: There's an old saying that you usually shoot the bearer of bad news and I' 11 probably get shot. State law says for vacation requests that if it's petitioned by a single person, you have to have a four-fifths vote to approve also. I did not anticipate both Mr. Geving and Mr. Horn being absent tonight. Tnere's a real question on whether we can even proceed on this item. Mayor Hamilton: It's certainly a significant item. Councilman Boyt: I think that what we need to do and what we can do, if we could give s~me sort of intention of the Council. This amounts to money out of everybody's pocket to delay this. On both of these issues, 4 and 6. Barbara Dacy: Would a special meeting be considered by the Council. Mayor Hamilton: Let me ask Roger this. Could we, if the Council were inclined, the three of us here this evening, could we allow the developer to go ahead with the construction pending approval of the disposition of 64th Street which is something we've done in several residential developments in the past? I believe we're going to reach a mutual understanding and agreement on this issue. Since we can't deal with it this evening, like Bill says, it's money out of everybody' s pocket. Roger Knutson: First to vacate a street you need a public hearing. This has not bc~---n advertised for a public hearing. Barbara Dacy: Yes it has. Roger Knutson: You got it advertised? Barbara Dacy: Right. Roger Knutson: Okay, then you can accept the document... The potential problem I can see, it takes a four-fifths vote to approve the vacation. It takes a simple majority vote to do the plat. Cha~ssen City Council - May 23, 1988 Barbara Dacy: At that last m'~ting the Council approved the plat subject to resolution of the vacation issue. In other words, a specific cor~ition of approval. So to proceed on your option w~uld not be possible because it was that cor~ition of approval... Mayor Hamilton: Anybody that could c~me up with the developer and begin grading on that site. Barbara Dacy: Depending on which option the Council chooses though as far as vacation of the street, that could affect the grading plan, at 64th Street. If time is a problem, I know nobody likes to come to more meetings than they have to. Mayor Hamilton: I guess our next option is to have a special ~ting. I want everybody here for this it~. Clark Horn was called out of town because of his father and we don't know where Dale is. He may have been called out of town on business so all we can do is we can set a tentative meeting for later this week or next Monday. Then we could at least contact the other tw~ m~r~ers and find out when they're going to be in town so we can at least have a quoru~ to deal with this it~. Councilman Boyt: Might I make a suggestion? I think that it's important, we've got quite a few of the neighbors here, that tt~y may have a position that they want to present that would have s~me impact. I think if people go to the trouble that it is s~etimes to come, it might be worth our time to listen to whatever their presentation is. Then we will at least have heard it and maybe scme of tbs~ won't need to come back. Mayor Hamilton: Except I think it's important for the other two m~mbers to hear the same thing. I realize they can read it off of the transcription, if it's done by then. I just don't want something to be lost in what everyone has to say and having the Council hearing it. Councilman Boyt: I agree. I have a couple of questions. Did MnDot come back with a response on where the origin spot was that the 1,100 feet? Barbara Dacy: Yes, I clarified that with Mr. Green this afternoon and he said he would accept a new street intersection measured 1,10~ feet frcm ~ center line of TH 7. Councilman Boyt: So that means that there could be s~me sort of intersection in the Reed property? Barbara [lacy: It would be roughly located along the south lot line of the Reed property. Councilman Boyt: Have wa got any information that helps us on how people who are to the west of this develoi~ent can get onto TH 41 if we shut off 64th? I've heard and I do not r~r~mber exactly fr~ the drawings we say a year or so ago but I understand that there's going to be a right turn lane on TH 7 that will enter TH 41 without having to stop at the stop sign. Barbara Dacy: Into the develol~mmnt you mean? Chanhassen City Council - May 23~ 1988 Councilman Boyt: No. Onto TH 41 off TH 7~ Barbara Dacy: How about if, I'm not sure I understand your question so I'll explain to you about the development and you can tell me if that's what you need to know or not. Tnere will be a full intersection on TH 41 to the ccm~nercial develol~nent. A right-in only from TH 7 into the con~nercial site. If 64th Street is closed off, depending on the Council's decision, it could be realigned out to TH 41. If it's closed off, people on the western part of the neighborhood over here would have to use the existing accesses to TH 7. W~shta Bay Road, Orchard Lane, Sandpiper. Councilman Boyt: On Orchard Lane, that's the one I'm interested in, it would se~n to me as though, with all the work that's going to go on on TH 7 one of these days, is it going to be possible for those folks to fairly easily go south on TH 41 if they lose 64th Street? Barbara Dacy: If they lose 64th Street, that would force all the traffic through the TH 7/TH 41 intersection. There would be no other means to get southbound on TH 41. Tney would all have to go north to TH 7 and then south. Councilman Boyt: That helps me. My issue on 64th Street is simply the impact on the people to the west and of course the impact on the property owners. It's my understanding, and maybe when we open this up to public discussion, when we hold a special meeting, this can be cleared up. It's my understanding that the people to the west, given a reasonable access onto TH 41 off of TH 7, can live with losing 64th Street. Tnat's my understanding. And if they can, then I'm quite comfortable with closing off 64th so from my perspective, I think that a very workable solution can be worked out. Mayor Hamilton: I had suggested the possibility of the feasibility study being conducted on this issue. Where this access should be located. Since we haven't a quorum and I think that's a good opportunity for you to conduct a feasibility study to give us more information. Perhaps if we're in agre~nent to do that being done now and perhaps we could bring this it~n back... Councilman Boyt: I think that what we're talking about here is the best w~y to spend the available money. I would rather see us encourage the developer to work with the property owners out there and spend money in that regard than to spend the money on doing a traffic study on what's going to happen to 64th Street. Mayor Hamilton: I understand he has been working with the neighbors. councilman Boyt: I think he has been working with th~m but what we're saying is let's take some of that available money that he could spend resolving their problems and spend it on the traffic study. I'm not sure the traffic study is going to put us any further ahead so I'd rather see the money spent resolving the issues of the property owners. Don Ashworth: The traffic study portion is as complete as it can be. In other words, the portion that's been done by BRW. At this point in time though, w~ really are not in a position to advise the Reeds for example on how much money it would cost to built that section of 64th Street to their property or the Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 Gowens or the cost of the cul-de-sac. We don't really have any way t6 analyze one proposal versus another. That really was not what staff's reccm~er~ation waS. Councilman Boyt: What we do have though is an intent that the developer and the Reeds and the (]owens have worked out in an attempt to resolve that issue. Now I don't think that the City r~s to be involved in gathering additional infonnation if they have already got a basic agresment. Don Ashworth: I don't believe that's the case. At least as of Friday I know that the Reeds were very concerned with sc~e of the pr(xnises and beliefs as far as would this road go through their property. Would it not. ~hat the cost would be to them. Would they really get their fair shake out of this proposal. Mayor Hamilton: Let me ask Gary Reed, I see he's here, and the Gowmns had a meeting yesterday with the neighborhood ar~ if you could tell us what the results of that meeting w~re. If there was anything conclusive that my help us here. c~ry I~c-~: We did have a meeting and Bill and I invited some of the other Counci~rs here. It was short notice 'so some of you didn't c~me but w~ did have a good show of neighbors in the area. We were able to han~er out some proposals.., cul-de-sac into our property. We discussed with Ben Gowem the option of cul-de-sacing it now with a short cul-de-sac and cul-de-sacing down- into the property to give us access frc~n TH 41. Mr. Gowem ~ I, he would like the City to look at that .... the proposal of going with the cul-de-sac into the property... We worked out an agreanent with Mr. Zahn om that... We feel that, as in talking with all the neighbors and getting everybody's heads together, w~ have representatives frcm the western section, that this is the best option for everybody involved. Let me point out again, you have a ...in your packet there on the State lots and... That's t/~ option there. We settled on the City survey. Mayor Hamilton: So you're satisfied with that? Councilman Johnson: Those eight lots, are all residential? You're not looking at any com~cial along this cul-de-sac? Gary Reed: That's true. councilman Johnson: And from when I talked to Don earlier today about how to split Oriole. Another question is, ~o follow up on scmething Bill said, is the right turn lane in going, is that going to be extending far enough back where that can also be used as an acceleration lane for Oriole? Barbara Dacy: Unless the developer ~Duld have more specific plans, I don't know if he worked out the specific details on that. Councilman Johnson: Tne entrance to the shopping center? Barbara Dacy: Right. John Uban: That will continue all the way down to the entrance of the shopping center. It's along the intersection itself. Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 Councilman Johnson: From Oriole? John Uban: Not from Oriole. Are you talking along TH 7 or along TH 417 Councilman Johnson: TH 7. How far west on ~H 7 does that start? John Uban: Yes, it goes back to Oriole. Councilman Johnson: Right now they're turning right onto TH 7 I believe without any type of acceleration lane. This would then give th~m some acceleration. John Uban: Plus that also helps to allow that new stacking left turn for people heading west and wanting to go onto Oriole from TH 7 so that widening there and the configuration of both the deceleration and acceleration lane and the left turn lane all come together because of that widening. Councilman Johnson: That helps a lot in that intersection. Tne other thing is, in our traffic studies, I didn't really see anything specific about how many people from Orchard I guess it is, actually turn onto Oriole and use 64th out to TH 41 per day? Councilman Boyt: 150 cars. Councilman Johnson: No, that's not right. That's 150 going both ways. Councilman Boyt: Right. 150 cars that go out 64th Street counting the round trip on 64th. Councilman Johnson: Yes, but that doesn't say how many people from Orchard come in, take a right and come over to 64th and go out. That's scmewhat of an important number to know because those are the people w~'re cutting off. Barbara Dacy: Tony Heppelmann from BRW is here. Tony Heppelmann: We don't actually have a count of the people actually making that movoment but an estimated number of people that live along Oriole and along 64th and subtracting out from 150 we came up with an estimate of about 75 vehicles a day, both ways, that ccme from west of Oriole and go out 64th. So about half of the total was that. Councilman Johnson: What would it take to do a count there? To confirm that estimate? Barbara Dacy: Put the city's traffic counters out there. Gary Warren: We use our counters to get the numbers that are out there right now. Councilman Johnson: Would the counters tell us how manypeople are making that turn from Oriole? Tony Heppelmann: It probably would be easier to do it manually and just keep track of the numbers. 10 Chanhassen City Council - May 23~ 1988 Councilman Johnson: I think so too. To me that's sc~ewhat of an important number because in talking to the neighborhood several weeks ago when tl~y had one of their neighborhood meetings with cookies and coffee, w~ w~re talking that there's very few people that actually make that. The way the road lies off to there, taking a very sharp turn as I said before. Most people go up to TH 7 and take it. I think that's an important factor. My assunption right now is that 75 m{ght be high. With the improvemm~ts to TH 7, I'm really kind of leaning towards the cul-de-sac as long as there's not going to be commercial on there. Limiting comnercial will reduce the traffic in future years. That's where I'm sitting. I'm leaning very heavy towards the cul-de-sac. With the TH 7 improvements, so just to give people a feeling of where I'm at. Mayor Hamilton: The neighbors have reached agreement and I wish I had... If that is satisfactory to them, it certainly is satisfactory to me and perhaps this will give us a little time since unfortunately w~ can't move ahead with this...to get some additional information to the Council to see that that's what you agreed upon. Betty Lang: I have a question. ~at does this do to the access to Herman Field? You're talking about making a cul-de-sac there. Where will this end? Mayor Hamilton: Oriole take them down to the cul-de-sac. The access to Herman Field will renain as it is at the present time. There's no change to that as I know. Roger Knutson: Barb's brought to my attention that Mr. Reed owns all the property abutting the street that will be vacated. That being the case, if he wishes to petition this Council to vacate it, you only ~ a majority vote which unanimous... Mayor Hamilton: Mr. ~ I guess I'd have to ask you then if that's something you'd like to have done? Mr. Reed has the option of petitioning the Council to vote on this itsm tonight. If you would want the Council to act on this it~n this evening, you could petition us to do so. If not you have that option also and we'll have to wait for a full Council. Gary Reed: I own it with my brother. He's not here tonight. Otherwise I'd probably do that. Gene Conner, 2521 Orchard Lane: In regards to the traffic flow on 64th, on a report on Orchard, my wife ar~ you notice I said my wife. I don't necessarily share her concern but she will not turn left off of TH 7 onto Oriole in terms of the east. She almost got rear ended one day there and she turns left at the light and goes down to 64th and goes in that way. I'm not against the cul-de-sac on 64th Street. I do feel very, very strongly however that any cul-de-sac has to be tied completely to a left turn lane off of TH 7. Councilman Johnson: Absolutely. I almost got rear ended at the sa~e place ar~ I don't like to take that turn either now. Councilman Boyt: Mr. Reed, I would like to request that you contact your brother and see if we can make some progress on this. Maybe we consider not acting on what we can't act on anyway but if you could get ahold of him ar~ cc~e 11 Chanhassen City Council - May 23~ 1988 back later, we might be able to still resolve this. The other thing is, I believe that Barb's information about where MnDot is willing to accept another entrance and exit off of TH 41, that it doesn't have to happen on Mr. Gowen's property at all. Tnerefore, we do have two options for a long extension and two cul-de-sacs that would be within the City's ordinance. Barbara Dacy: Mr. Green did state to me on the phone that MnDot would accept, if another road was to come in this way, that they w~uld not require Mr. Gowen to alter his driveways. In other w~rds, Mr. Gow~n's driveway can exist as is. Councilman Boyt: Ail this can happen and his property is untouched? So I think both of those options will still fly. Roger Zahn: I'm Roger Zahn, president of HSZ Develol~nent. Maybe if we could just retreat a second and get a point of clarification frc~n the Council here. The Reeds are owners in joint tenancy with their brother. In other werds, they aren't divided, one-half interest in all of that property. That's not that the property is split so it may well be that we'd never exactly face that issue before but it may well be as legal fact they are owners of that property. They are owners of all of that property so the question is, when it's joint tenancy, can they make that request or do you need both joint tenants? I don't know why you would. If you're in joint tenancy with your wife, do both the wife and the husband have to join in a petition to vacant? That's essentially the question and I would say probably no. Roger Knutson: Obviously Mr. Reed couldn't sell the property without his brother's consent. He could sell his half interest in it but he couldn't sell the property... I don't think the Statute's a 100% clear. You may very well be right but I think the considerate thing to do is not cloud the record with that sort of thing. If I were proceeding with that develol~nent, I would want as little... Otherwise you just take a risk that scmeone can use later. Mayor Hamilton: You've heard what the three councilmembers here are telling you. As long as you work with what the neighbors are coming up with and what you're coming up with and... We will be attempting to make a special meeting. Roger Zahn: Yes, I really appreciate that. Mayor Hamilton: We'll keep you informed. Don Ashworth: If I'm hearing the Council is pretty well in tune on this issue. Potentially we can set it for Thursday evening at 5:00 or 6:00. Mayor Hamilton: I think we should make it as soon as possible but Jay's saying he's going to be out of town the rest of the week. Councilman Johnson: No, in town. Mayor Hamilton: It's hard telling when Clark will be back. We can find that out. Don Ashworth: Clark thought he would be back within the next couple days. 12 Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 Mayor Hamilton: If that doesn't inconvenience anybody who's here, we'll attempt to meet at 6:00 ~nursday evening if we can get everyone together. Councilman Boyt: Let's be sure we include Pierce and this on the same night. Mayor Hamilton: There might be a couple more itsms. Councilman Boyt: So what we've agreed to do then is to hold the meeting on Thursday at 6: 00. Mayor Hamilton: If we can have a quorum. Councilman Boyt: It would be certainly very helpful if the Reeds and Mr. Zahn had worked out an agreement by then. For my part, I certainly want you to keep the option open of having two cul-de-sacs that live within the limits set by the City Ordinance. As I mentioned that may not carry today but I would like you to think about that option. R & R LAND Vf~H~3RES, LOCATED ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF WOODHILL ROAD: A. SUBDIVISION OF 3.5 ACRES INTO 7 SINGr.E FAMILY LOTS. B. WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT TO DEVELOP WITHIN 200 FEET OF A CLASS B WETLAND. Barbara Dacy: The Planning Oan~ission, at their meeting, recomaended approval of both items but they did want clarification regarding the status of the drainageway that traverses through the eastern part of the property which is located on the transparency right here. Mr. Jim Leach from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service inspected the site on May 13th. He said that although the drainageway does exhibit wetland characteristics, he said that it's not protected by DNR or the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service ar~ is considered a drainageway and not a protected wetland. So the Planning Omn~ission's concern regarding whether or not the plat would have to be amended is resolved. In fact Mr. Leach endorsed the proposed creation of the stormwater retention pond in this location to act as a filtering basin prior to the storm water entering into the wetland area to the east of the Yuma Drive paper right-of-way. He also r~nded that a part of the por~ be d~-~ to permit shortage of water should occur on a long term basis, he's afraid the ponds is shallower in the southeast part of the site. Although staff recognizes that those are viable objectives for a pond to promote the stripping of nutrients before entering the wetland area, there was an overwhelming concern from the neighborhood at the public hearing regarding whether or not there is going to be standing water in that pond. A number of the neighbors in the area have children and there was concerns about those safety issues. ~herefore, staff is still maintaining it's original recc~mendation to create a pond as proposed as shown on the proposed drainage plan. The Planning Oam~ission also added three conditions regarding the sutxnission of a deed restriction regarding tree renoval, soil borings to be submitted upon building permit application. That the developer negotiate with the City Engineer regarding curbing along Lots 3, 4 and 5 and that a 10 foot roadway and utility easement be platted on the south right-of-way of Woodhill Road. As to the wetlar~ alteration permit, Mr. Leach's comments have ~ received and he approved the proposed grading and planting plan. ~herefore, Council can adopt the Planning Cc~mission's reccmner~ation for approval subject to cc~pliance with the conditions of plat approval. 13 ~nhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 Mayor Hamilton: Ron, did you have anything you wanted to add? Ron Krueger: Yes, one point that you covered here. The one on the curb. I believe at the Planning Comnission meeting there was...and the drainage in that area, the water seems to...running along the north side. I really don't see any purpose for putting a blacktop curb along those lots. I'm not concerned with the first... Tae other item was the applicant shall dedicate Outlot A to the City of Chanhassen prior to the comnencement of any grading. We have agreed to dedicate the outlot but the problems would be, we'd like to get busy and start installing this storm sewer to get at least s~me of these houses built and we still have the final plat to get approved and it has to go to the County and there's one of the lots that has a tax title probl~n so if we're not able to do any grading prior to the deeding of the outlot, it's probably going to take about six weeks. Perhaps in the develol~nent agreenent. I'm sure there will be words in the develol~nent agreement to cover the deeding of the outlot to the City. Councilman Johnson: You said that the Fish and Wildlife and the DNR don't consider it a wetland, what about our ordinance? That's what the Planning Cc~nission talked about. They were pretty sure those would be our wetlands. Barbara Dacy: The primary distinction is that yes, there's no question that there' s running water through it because it' s a drainageway. And yes, there are reed grasses along it because it's wet in the area but it's considered a ditch. A drainageway and not a wetland. It's very similar to what w~ did in the Rod Gram's subdivision with the creek that runs through there and the Triple Crown creek. Well, there used to be in that area there. Maybe I'll use the example on the west side in the Saddlebrook area. Councilman Boyt: Didn't we open that up and make a pond out of it? Barbara Dacy: In Saddlebrook? Yes. I believe our crews did alter this drainageway also for improving the flow through. Councilman Johnson: They should have spread the fill out a little better around the edge to make it look nicer. I wish there was something we could do about the grading... I 'm hoping that the other side of the road will develop and get rid of some of those shacks and problems on the other side of the road too. I think that this is another fine area that seems kind of...similar to our conservation easement. Little easenent that we could work out to discuss what can and can't be done within the woods. Obviously, you take out the diseased trees that you're required to take down but I think that's something that ought to be taken on a future agenda where we talk about...to help try to preserve some of the wood... Councilman Boyt: If we look at the motion as reconm~=_nded to the City Council, number 1 talks about clearcutting. I think in that should be added reference to trees being proposed for cutting should be reviewsd by the Forest Service and City Engineer. That's not in there and I think that should be standard operating procedure for the City. Then in number 5, Gary it's my understanding that we have put in our standard development contract that the City is going to be responsible for erosion control and we're going to charge for that. 14 Chanhassen City Council - May 23~ 1988 20t Gary Warren: The City will be responsible for r~m~val of erosion control and there will be a charge for that. Councilman Boyt: Okay, w~ should modify 5 to reflect that. It says that the responsibility will be on the developer and I believe it's 1.~0 a foot to remove? Gary Warren: That' s correct. Councilman Boyt: ~nen I think as a part of this w~ should post that Woodhill Road be as a no parking area. I gather fr~n the discussion it presently wouldn't support parking. I think that we should, as part of our conditions of approvement, if possible, require that all hcmes have a sump systen and drain tile. As I recall our ordinances, we require that the low~st level of the house be 3 feet above the water line. Do you recall that? Gary Warren: You're talking about 2 foot from the high water mark. Councilman Boyt: It's 2 feet above, not 3 feet above? Gary Warren: 2 feet above the high water mark. Councilman Boyt: As I look at where the current line is for the marsh, maybe that's no problem. I guess I was looking at the drainage ditch. There are quite a few references in the Planning Ccm~nission notes about flooding on Lot 5. Are we in touch with that? Larry Brown: Yes. The applicant has sutxnitted calculations to try and address the flow that would flow over the corner of Lot 5 in the event of a large storm. Part of the house pad elevations can be addressed as well through the building permit application. We're not locking in now house pad elevations at this time. Councilman Boyt: Are we indicating that these are buildable lots without variances? Barbara Dacy: Yes. Councilman Boyt: I know from a square footage standpoint but what if this lot can't be built on frum a water table standpoint? What if they have no way of accessing this lot without cutting across an area where the water table is 1 foot below the ground? Does that then make than unbuildable? Larry Brown: I think those questions will have to be answered once the soil borings are submitted to the building inspection department. Councilman Boyt: Can we approve this without soil borings being taken and indicate that this is a buildable lot? Once we plat this, aren't we saying it's a buildable lot? Gary Warren: Maybe Roger wants to address that. I guess my opinion on that would be that platting the lots but that does not absolve the developer from certain things. Like bad soils, for example, regardless of water, if he has a buildable foundation. 15 Chanhassen City Council - May 23~ 1988 Councilman Boyt: It seems to me that the City is faced with variances with some frequency where a lot has been platted and it's found that it no longer fits the City's ordinances and yet we pretty generally grant those variances through the hardship of not finding another use for that piece of ground. Gary Warren: In certain setback areas, those variances I would agree with you but as far as conditions such as soil stability and ground water, I would be hard pressed to come up with a variance that we've approved. Councilman Boyt: So you're telling me that even if this lot was unbuildable, we wouldn't be faced with a variance request to build on it. You wouldn't be able to grant it, is basically what you're saying. Gary Warren: I'm saying that in order for him to build on any of these lots, he still has to be able to comply with the ground water and soil stability issues. Roger Knutson: I suppose potentially Gary, I don't know anything about these lots... Gary Warren: In which case he's cc~plying with the ground water condition. Tne basement that's above the ground water. Roger Knutson: So you would need a variance before he can get that house filed? Councilman Boyt: Okay, I'm just trying to protect the future property owners. On the issue of the wetland, the National Wildlife Service, I gather, is suggesting that the wetland be a more permanent wet area. Is that right Barbara? Is that what you're suggesting? The neighborhood is saying they want it dry? Barbara Dacy: Tne wetland, the actual wetland is off the property. Councilman Boyt: This is the pond you're creating. Barbara Dacy: And the pond area, yes, Mr. Leach recommended that we could create a deeper part of the pond in the northern area and a shallower area to encourage vegetation and so on and during the Planning Cc~xnissionmeeting that was an issue of concern. Councilman Boyt: The neighbors talked about there was a good bit of water around this area already. I don't know exactly how I feel about the issue. I hate to create a hazard. I also hate to give up potential wetland area that we could develop. I understanding in reading the Planning Commission Minutes that there is a considerable number of trees that are going to be loss due to grading. Is that right? Gary Warren: Correct. Councilman Boyt: And these are mature trees we're talking about. What can we do to save them? C~ryWarren: It will come up I guess to the builder or property owner or developer, this is the building plans. We call out for grading plans for review for a building permit as we have in Shado~mere and other areas and say what 16 Chanhassen City Oouncil - May 23, 1988 203 trees are you going to save. It's to their incentive to save the trees except for those that are diseased or damaged. Councilman Boyt: Well, no it isn't. It's not to their incentive if it keeps ~ fr~n developing that piece of property. They'll come in ar~ they'll put 10 feet of fill in there and kill that tree. Gary Warren: I guess what I meant to say is that fr~n a monetary star, point, the lot is worth more to have trees on it. Barbara Dacy: Mr. Boyt, I guess we attenpted to be, as you can tell fr~n the grading plan, that there will ~ to be a certain amount of work conducted. On one hand we didn't want to lead the Council down the road by saying that there will be a lot of trees saved. We wanted to be upfront with that but in order to compensate that, by establishing that grading limit boundary, preserving the southern half of those lots, maintain the property from the Triple Crown subdivision ar~ do our best to review the tree renoval plan and you have a good suggestion with the DNR forester. Maybe we do have scme added help in that area when we have the grading... Councilman Boyt: I would recommend that a condition be put on this that we minimize fill that would lead to the death of a major tree. I would say anything over 10 inches. I'd like to see the fill minimized to save those as much as possible. We have the capability of building on Lot 5, which is barely above the water table, according to the neighbors, then we certainly have the capability of minimizing fill and protecting as many trees as possible. I think we should go with that on 10. My last point is 20% road incline. Basically I don't think this piece of property warrants five lots. I don't think w~ should put five more families on a road that has a 20% decline/incline and a surface only 16 feet wide. I won't vote against it because of that but it just seems to me it's not safe. That's all. Mayor Hamilton: I had a question on item 3 also. I'm curious ~hy we're asking for Outlot A to be dedicated prior to any grading when it hasn't ~ done in the past. It would sesm to me that that's a City, rather...condition. I think this can be acc(~nplished by putting s~nething into the develoi~nent contract ar~ I think in the past it's been overlooked in some cases where we haven't gotten the outlots deeded to the City as we should have but I don't think this is the right place to do it. Gary Warren: Exactly Mr. Mayor. We've had problems catching up with some easenents and outlots that haven't ~ carried out even as a result of being in the development contract. I would suggest, I wouldn't request here but I would like to get sc~e deadline maybe where we could put out scme realistic date that the developer would do where w~ could expect to have the deed transferred so w~ have s~mething that's not nebulous out there. Mayor Hamilton: I think as long as the developer knows and had agreed that he's going to transfer that, there shouldn't be a probl~. I would think that the City would want him to finish his grading anyway. ~hy would we ~n~: to have it deed to us? He could say well now it's yours. I'm not going to finish it. I don' t know, why should I? It's not my property. 17 204 Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 Gary Warren: Conditions of the develo~ent contract and plans w~uld require that he have to do the work out there whether we have ownership or not. I guess I'm saying...we could use a letter of credit I guess as a back-up. If he hasn't provided us with a deed we'll use his letter of credit. Mayor Hamilton: Can that be put into the development contract? Gary Warren: Yes. Mayor Hamilton: So you can strike that from one of the conditions. Then item 12 on curbing. Could you make a co~ent on that please? Larry Brown: Tne curbing, the reason that they had stated that the curbing was to be negotiated is through the plans and specs mode, their initial intent was to make sure that the water along Lots 4 and 5 did in fact make it to the pond and not flood out the front of those lots. Right now Mr. Krueger and myself have yet to sit down and take a look at the low points to find out whether that's feasible and that's why they're allowing him to negotiate with the City Engineer. Gary Warren: That would either be, probably more appropriate along with review of the plans and specs. We w~uld make a review of it at that time. Mayor Hamilton: Then the discussion on the trees. That is a beautiful piece of property and there are many trees on there. I think a lot of them will be saved because the building pads will be in the north side of the lots. However, you do have to take some trees to make ro~m for a building pad. I think we've talked about this so many times that when we hired a forester to help us with these things, he told us that trees will die if you do... You expect that as a part of development. I certainly hate to see a nice treed area like this, s~me of these trees are being developed but... It is a valuable asset to the property... A lot of people looking for lots with trees on them. They're hard to find. I have no other it~zs. Councilman Johnson: Just to follow up on the trees and grading. Looking at the grading plan, with the exception of Lot 1 and Lot 2, s~me of the very front part of it, the entire Lot 3, 4 and 5 are going to be regraded bringing that up to 4 foot of fill and 2 foot or so over almost the entire Lot 4. There's not going to be on the front half a lot of trees saved on Lots 1 and 2. Truthfully when I went down through there, there's a lot of real ~nall grubby trees on the front side of those lots like sc~_body has cleared it once before. Tnere are some mature trees but primarily 1 inch type stuff. It's pretty scrubby. It would be interesting to get some of those, replant whatever you can. With a tree spade move them around if you've got some that are saveable and after you fill, go back into the frontyards. Use your own thing as a nursery if it's possible. Just a suggestion obviously. Do you know that operation down east, a logging operation going on down there. Mayor Hamilton: The person has been trying to develop a buildable lot and what's happened is they've got all kinds of trees off. The owner has ~c~n doing' that. Councilman Johnson: How deep, if you expanded the pond, where there was some water, would we be talking 6 inches of water? I think a lot of people are 18 Chanhassen City Council - May 23 ~ 1988 concerned about getting a high water where the kids would drown. Is what Mr. Leach is looking for is something for ducks to swim in? Barbara Dacy: Right. Councilman Johnson: With wood duck houses and stuff? We have a beautiful area for wood ducks. Mayor Hamilton: ...improving a ditch that goes through there so I suspect that there's wildlife... Councilman Johnson: We're not talking a real lot of depth of water. Just enough water to promote the wildlife. During the storms w~ do go to 2 to 3 to 4 feet deep during a large storm. ~hether it's totally dry or has 6 inches in it to start with. Is there a way we could say that the average depth shouldn't exceed a foot of scmething or a design that w~ are going to hold water in? Gary Warren: I think it'd be more appropriate to just specify an outlet in the rear that would control elevation. With the grading we cut what the maximum depth would be. You have a 928 outlet, you put a rear a 930, it will be 2 foot down on the east er~ and there will be 0 depth. That would be the way to do it. Councilman Boyt: That's just the reverse. I would move approval of Subdivision Request ~88-5 with the following conditions and changes. On number 1 I would add Forest service and City Engineer. Also add the grading and fill be minimized to save trees. Tnat means that we simply have the ability to ask for trees to be saved. Then I understand we struck 3. That 5 b~ the addition of $1.00 per foot for removal. Gary Warren: He's still dedicating the outlot. Councilman Boyt: Right but it's no longer in this? Gary Warren: It's still a condition of approval. It's just that be doesn't have to give i't to us prior to starting of the grading. Councilman Johnson: Strike fr~n prior back. Councilman Boyt: Then that. addition I just made on 5, I'd like to add a point 14, no parking on Woodhill Road. I'd like to add a point 15 which is so much co~xnon sense it defies logic but that a sump and drain tile will be required in the hanes in this develolanent. Mayor Hamilton: If that's a motion I'll second it. Ron Krueger: I had a question on the erosion control. In other words, we don't do it. Gary Warren: The City has a standard develotm~ent contract now which the City public works force...erosion control in new develotz~en~ because s~ne~ we want to leave that in for a year or scmet~ after finishing the project ~ the developer ar~ everybody else has gone away. RDn Krueger: So in other words, we can't r~move it? 19 206 Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 Gary Warren: In no case can you remove it unless you have the approval of the City. Ron Krueger: Tnat is an option... Gary Warren: ~ne City will remove under the development contract. The City will remove ar~ you will be charged $1.00 per foot for removal. Mayor Hamilton: Is this an item that is negotiable so if he would agree to remove it ar~ he's finished with is grading and everything, that his crews take it out? Gary Warren: It's kind of defeating the purpose of our generic contract. We're trying to get consistency because it does get difficult to remember who w~ said can remove it and who can't and that's why we said with this saying the City will take care of it. Mayor Hamilton: I'm not saying not to have it in there. I'm just saying, I don't see any reason why you and the developer can't negotiate that. If you're satisfied with the way it is and he's still got his crew there, I don't see any reason why he can't take it out. Gary warren: Contrary to the contract we're approving. Mayor Hamilton: I guess it doesn't make any sense. I see no reason why staff doesn't have... Gary warren: Normally the erosion control is left in place for some time after the improvements are done. Especially on an area such as this where we've got a lot of steep grades. Councilman Boyt: What I'd like to see happen there is that we collect the money and if per chance if this worked out, we give it back to them. If it doesn't the City has the righ to take them out. That way it becomes the developer's responsibility and the City doesn't have to chase anybody down. Mayor Hamilton: Just a co~nent on your 15 with the sumps and baskets. ...anybody I've seen or dealt with... The developer is not building the house and I don't think that we, on developer's contract, one of his conditions, if he's not building the house, that we can tell him that the builder has to put sumps and baskets in that house. He's not the builder. He's only the developer of the property. He's not the builder. Councilman Boyt: We tell them sometimes where they can locate a house. We tell the developer any number of things. About house positioning, tree removal. Mayor Hamilton: Rhat's fine but that doesn't have anything to do with the actual construction. When it's something within the house and the construction. I'm not disagreeing with you as far as doing it. Quality builders do it but I'm not sure that we can tell R & R that it has to be there when you have no control over that. Roger Knutson: It should be put in the development contract... Maybe there's no dispute on that point. Do you have any problem with that? 20 Chanhassen City Oouncil - May 23~ 1988 207 Ron Krueger: We have covenants... These lots are going to have to rest... I don't know what deeds w~'ve got. You may say the City says you have to do it but... Roger Knutson: As far as it having teeth, it's in the develc[m~nt contract that is recorded against the lots. You don't have any problems. RoxAnn Lund: Don't you have strength in the building application? Mayor Hamilton: Not in the building permit application. Councilman Johnson: In reviewing the building designs, if we find that .the grour~ water is so high we can't, I find that hard to believe. Councilman Boyt: This takes care of it. It's real simple. Mayor Hamilton: But again I think perhaps rather than having it as one of the conditions it should be in the development contract. Councilman Boyt: Is the develo~ent contract okay with you? C~ry ~arren: For the sump pumps? Fine. Councilman Boyt: Do you want to make a note to make sure it's in there. So I remove that from a part of my motion. Councilman Boyt moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to approve Subdivision Request #88-5 based on the plan stamped "Received May 2, 1988" and the grading and drainage plan stamped "Received May 19, 1988" subject to the following cor~itions: 1. There shall be no clearcutting of the lots at any time. Grading, erosion control ar~ tree rsmoval plans shall be sut~it~ in conjunction with the building permit application for Lots 1 through 5, Block 1. The applicant shall file the proposed deed restrictions upon satisfactory review by City staff, Forester and City Engineer. The grading and fill should be minimized to save trees. 2. The developer shall enter into a develofznent contract with the City and provide the City with the necessary financial sureties to guarantee completion of these improverents. 3. The applicant shall dedicate Outlot A to the City of Chanhassen. 4. The applicant shall erect a snow fence i~mediately south of the proposed grading area to prevent r~oval or destruction of trees outside the proposed grading area. 5. All erosion control measures shall be in place prior to the c(~ner~m~e~t of any grading, and once in place shall renain in place throughout the duration of construction. The developer is required to review all erosion control measures periodically and make the necessary repairs promptly. All erosion 21 ~a~nhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 control measures shall remain intact until an established vegetative cover has bc~n~ produced, at which time removal shall be the responsibility of the developer at $1.00 per foot. 6. The developer shall obtain and comply with all conditions of the Watershed District. 7. Wood-fiber blankets or equivalent shall be used to stabilize all distrubed slopes greater than 3:1. 8. ~ne develper shall be responsible for daily on ar~ off-site clean up caused by construction of this site. 9. ~ plans shall be revised to show that the storm sewer pipe located at the southwest corner of Outlot A shall be extended 10 feet beyond the existing watermain along Yuma Drive. 10. The applicant shall provide the City with revised storm sewer calculations which verify the adequate capacity of the storm sewer syste~ prior to the final plat review process. 11. The applicant shall suhnit soil borings for each lot as part of the building permit process. 12. The developer shall negotiate with the City Engineer for curbing for Lots 3, 4and 5. 13. ~ne developer shall provide a ten foot roadway easement along Woodhill to provie for future road improvements and utilities. 14. There shall be no parking on Woodhill I%oad. Ail voted in favor and the motion carried. Councilman Boyt: I would like to suggest that the staff look at including creeks, whatever you want to call those bodies of water in the Wetland Ordinance. Councilman Johnson: Drainage areas. Councilman Boyt: I hate to get into the business of saying that unless somebody put a drainageway in, it is not a wetland. On the other hand I think if we don't have the ability to protect streams and creeks, we have a problem. Mayor Hamilton: But if it is a drainageway, that's happened to other places down the road and above ground...but it's still the same type of thing as this it's just the other way around. If you open it up you can say it's a wetland because there will be e~ergent vegetation on it. Councilman Boyt moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to approve Wetland Alteration Permit I%sc/uest %88-6 based on the plans stamped "Received May 2, 1988 and May 19, 1988" subject to the following condition: 22 Chanhassen City Oouncil - May 23~ 1988 1. Om~oliance with the conditions of plat approval for Subdivision 98825] All voted in favor and the motion carried. BROOKSIDE MOTEL, JOSEPH NOTE~MAN, 789 AND 79g FLYING CL(X/D DRIVE: A. ZONING ORDINANCE ~ TO AMEND S~CTION 20-773, THE BF DISTRICT TO Ar.r~W R]~CREATIONAL CAMPING FACILITIES AS A CONDITIONAL USE. B. CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR 4 RECREATIONAL CAMP/TRAInRR SITES. Mayor Hamilton: This is another ordinance amencinent where w~ need to have four council persons present. Consequently w~'ll have to table this for our next regularly scheduled .mcc~ting which will be June 13th. I don't think there's anything pressing on it. Councilman Johnson: He wants to get it in for the Canterbury Downs season but he' s not here tonight. Councilman Boyt: I can tell you that it's not going to get my vote. Councilman Johnson: Nor mine. Mayor Hamilton: Nor mine. Councilman Boyt: We can't pass it but w~ can defeat it. Mayor Hamilton: Personally I prefer to allow the other oouncilmembers to make comment on this. If he is curious about what our feeling is, he's got it. So this will be tabled until the 13th. REQUEST TO RELOCATE TRAIL EAS~, HIDDEN VALLEY. Roger Knutson: Let me point out one thing. Before you take final action on this, the s. ignage in that area is to relocate a trail ar~ vacate a trail.., or otherwise, you need a public hearing. This has not ~ advertised for a public hearing this evening. Discuss it and whatever but you can't act on it. Don Ashworth: There's no use discussing it then is there if you discuss it at the time of public hearing as w~ll? Councilman Johnson moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to tahke the request to relocate the trail easement for Hidden Valley until staff has advertised it for a public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ZONING ORDINANCE ~ TO ~ SECTICN 20-1251 (A) C~ THE ZONING ORDINANCE TO PERMIT LARG~ ON-PREMISE DI~IONAL SIGNS THAN THE REQUIRED FOUR SQUARE FEET, FIRST READING, DATASERV. Mayor Hamilton: This also ~s four people present. 23 Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 Barbara Dacy: The applicants would like to request if you could consider this on Thursday's meeting? Mayor Hamilton: Yes. APPROVAL OF PRELIMINARY ASSESSMENT ROLL FOR LAKE LUCY ROAD IMPROVEMENT PROJECT AND SET THE ASSESSMENT HEARING DATE. Mayor Hamilton: It would be my opinion that we stick with the original assessment of $11.25 and $22.20 and pick up the additional $6,657.00. Do you guys have a co~ent or any problem with that or do you want Gary to make a presentation? Councilman Boyt: All we're asking to do is to set the date and you're saying you want to keep it as it is? Mayor Hami 1 ton: Yes. Councilman Boyt: So you're opposed to this? Mayor Hamilton: No. What I'm saying is I want to remain as we initially said we would. Councilman Boyt: That means that the City is going to be absorbing that $6,000.00. I'd be curious as to the logic behind that. Gary Warren: I can give an update. As I mentioned in the staff report, I didn't have the numbers and I do now on State Aid Fund which obviously ties into the question Bill asked here. Real briefly, we all understand the project and where it's cc~ing from. The State Aid portion of t_be project, obviously has to come out of the State Aid Fund. Tne amount of those dollars, we've got some recent updates here of our State Aid balance. As of 1987 the understated balance, we were 186,000.00 roughly. In 1988 because we've gone through and we've bc~n~ updating our list and we've obviously been adding mileage to our system, we have $248,500.00 roughly of funds this year from State Aid. Tne total of those two is $434,500.00 of a balance that's available to us. We do have encumbrances from Lake Lucy Road and Lake Drive East because of projects that we're finishing up now. That will be drawing out of this balance. Basically the way the assessments rolls are set up right now for Lake Lucy Road, we are roughly $114,000.00 that will still come out of this balance to pay off the Lake Lucy Road project. And Lake Drive East, the portion between TH 101 and Dakota that we built, there's about $25,000.00 that is finally getting used so to try to give those encumbrances from the total, you leave about almost a $300,000.00 balance in our State Aid funds for this year. Bluff Creek Drive which obviously is on everybody's list here is the only project at this time slated for those dollars and our most recent estimate of construction dollars with our 30% overhead is $667,000.00 of which the policy, as it stands right now, 20% of that would be assessed so the net proceeds that would be utilized from State Aid is $534,000.00 less the $294,000.00 that's available to us leaves $239,000.00 balance of the next year's coverage. So basically Bluff Creek Drive would still be funded as we had initially thought with two years of State Aid money. This number here, the 1989 construction allotment, I'm just saying the same thing for 1988. With the recent 3% increase in gasoline tax and the... 24 Chanhassen City Council - May 23~ 1988 21! being increased, I think we' 11 be seeing some increase in State Aid dollars so I would suspect these numbers are low. At any rate, we're still within the original philosophy as far as use of our overall State Aid funds on Bluff Creek that will be funded over a two year period so the extra dollars from Lake Lucy Road are not a major impact on the State Aid funds. (bviously we'd like to take those as far as we can but we're still within our goals. Councilman Boyt: We ur~oub~ly agreed that the property owners were going to pay a certain percentage of this road. The asses~nents. Right? Gary Warren: That was in the feasibility study, that's correct. · Councilman Boyt: Ar~ we have an increase in the actual cost of building road. Gary Warren: Taat ' s correct. Councilman Boyt: So it seans to me that we would apply a percentage into what the property owners would be paying. Gary Warren: Actually the logic in the feasibility study was to have the abutting property owners pay, for example Lake Lucy Road existed in a previous aligrm~nt. Tae properties that abutted Lake Lucy Road were charged an equivalent section for modifying soil,~r sub-base and putting a bit~ninous overlay because they had an existing road versus the property that when through the Merele Stellar plat. That was new construction but again there was a calculation made as to what an equivalent resident section would be because this road is a 9 ton road, our State Aid Road. The assessments were really based on some calculations and Jeff Roos is here from McOanbs. He and I recently went through this based on some equivalent sections in relation. Councilman Boyt: You're telling me that we could have built the road we assessed then for ar~ covered it with the amount we assessed ths~ ar~ the City's participation in that? That where the additional cost came from was that we built more road than we thought we were going to build at the start? Gary Warren: I'm saying and the estimate comes from the feasibility study which was February, 1986. At that time the estimate for an equivalent residential section in general terms was going to be $11.25 per front foot and $22.2~. Councilman Boyt: What I'm struggling with Gary is I want to know why the citizens of Chanhassen should pick up the $6,000.00 bill if the City agreed earlier that the residents were responsible for certain portion of this. The residents of that inmediate area. Mayor Hamilton: Perhaps Jeff Boos from McOa~bs can shed s~me light on that. Jeff Roos: Councilman Boyt, when we went through the feasibility portion of this project we had three or four different alternate types of roads that we were considering and we were also looking at different ways of assessing it. What we and the staff sort of narrowed it down to, we looked at typical asses-~ents that would be levied for residential streets in other projects ar~ we found at that time...and said that's what the typical residential road assessment should be to the Lake Lucy Highlands project. They went from a State 25 - Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 Aid road being planned to a residential road. ~nat's how we set that figure. We then, due to statements made by the residents on the old Lake Lucy Road, they said they did not want a typical residential road. They liked their rural road so we looked at what the typical cost for a rural road would be. That's the 24 foot mat over the existing gravel and that came out to $11.25 per foot and that's how we established that number. It was our intention that we would assess those rates to the abutting properties and all items not covered were... Councilman Boyt: If I've got this correctly, you're telling me that the City Council in 1986 agreed that it was okay for an urban area to have a rural road. They didn't build it but they said yes, that' s all you' re going to pay for. So now they were buying...but what the sense of the two members of the Council is we want to maintain the cost of 1986 for a project that we are just now finishing. We finished what, a year ago. We're billing right now. Is that the flow of what you guys are saying? Let's bill then in 1986 for what we build in 19877 Mayor Hamilton: What I'm saying is that the $6,657.81 that the project went over should be paid through by the State Aid funds. It should come out of the State Aid Fund dollars. Those dollars that are in the State Aid Fund should be spent on State Aid roads so if this is a State Aid road, I think it's good use of the dollars. Tne times that we let the bids it was...$6,000.00 is pretty minimal. We haggled a long time with the residents on this to ccme up with the $11.25 per front foot that they should pay. I think that's a reasonable charge. Councilman Boyt: We have basically comnitted our State Aid funds through all of next year. We are looking at another very large project in road construction and it would seen to me that we need to protect scme State Aid money to see us through the next year. I would like to see the whole Council vote on this issue. I think this is one of those issues that over the next year and a half we're going to come back and be turning residents down because we have no State Aid money. We'll either delay their project or we won't give thsm the money we'd like to give them and I think it's an important decision and we ought to get all five people. Mayor Hamilton: Let me ask you a hypothetical question then. If the bids for Bluff Creek Drive come in significantly lower than what the engineer's projections are so we have additional funds available projected in our fund'for 1989, how are we going to handle those funds? The funds keep coming in every year and the engineer says we can expect scme additional funds with the increase in taxes and the additional highways. Councilman Boyt: What I would like to see us do, I think it's important that we're consistent. I think if the bids came back lower on Bluff Creek road than we anticipated, re not going to turn around to the people living on that and say but we told you we were going to assess you $259,000.00 so we're still going to assess you that. We don't do that. We would reduce the amount of money they pay in assessments so now we're finding that actually building the road was more expensive than the City anticipated and I'm saying that philosophically I think that the residents have a part still to pay. I think that's a difficult enough issue that I would like the other m~9~rs of the Council to vote on it. Roger Knutson: A point on one thing. This is a preliminary assessment roll. It is not the final assessment roll. The final assessment will be after the 26 Chanhassen City Council - May 23~ 1988 hearing. You could, if you wanted to, the City Council, set this up until the hearing ar~ then at the hearing when the whole Council's here, if that's the case, you can increase those numbers... Mayor Hamilton: I don't think that's such a bad idea. You can make t~ose options available in the notice that the hearing is going to be held ar~ they will either be maintained at the level they were previously or the $6,gg0.00 will have to be reassessed against the abutting property owners and that will be decided at the time of public hearing. Councilman Johnson: One thing, you can also base it upon what the bids come in on Friday for Bluff Creek. If the bids do c~me in under on Friday for Bluff Creek, go with $11.25. If the bids come in over on Bluff Creek and Bluff Creek doesn't need the whole $9,000.00, then we will want to go the other way. So w~ can say prepare the rolls next week after w~ open the bids on Friday either at $11.25 or $11.80 depending on what happens with Bluff Creek. Don Ashworth: I think Roger just stated, you can send out the roll as it is right now which would produce the higher dollar amounts. At tl~ public hearing the Council as a whole could determine to reduce that, you would not have to go through any additional process. Roger Knutson: You can change the amounts... Don Ashworth: You could ser~ this out just as it's being prepared here. That takes the most conservative position. At the hearing you can reduce th~n down to the $11.25 or either way. Councilman Johnson: So the rolls in here are at the $11.807 c~ry Warren: The roll here has ~ prepared at the lower rate. The $11.25. Roger Knutson: The only thing wrong with doing that, you're dealing with a lot of parcels ar~ if you've ever changed what you sent out, set out at any rate and then you change it, everybody has to be renotified. That's after the conclusion of the assessnent hearing. Mayor Hamilton: ~hat if we notify them of both potential, either or? Send out one notice ar~ say it's either going to be $11.25 or $'11.80. Roger Knutson: The Statute says you've got to give them the proposed assessnent. Maybe you're better off postponing the decision until the Council can agree, unless the three of you can agree on scmething. Don Ashworth: You' re saying if they send out the $11.8g they can not reduce it to $11.257 Roger Knutson: C~ sure they could. Don Ashworth: Okay, that's what I was trying to say. Roger Knuson: The only thing about that Don is if you're going to ser~ out after the hearing then, you have to send out notices to all these people again telling them what the new rate is. 27 Chanhassen City Council - May 23~ 1988 Gary Warren: I would opt to go out with the position that w~ send it out at a higher rate. It's easier to go back than it is to up everything at the assessment hearing... We do want to set the date for June 27th or we are proposing June 27th which would give us a little time. The public notice for the newspaper is looking at I guess, this is a long weekend. Councilman Johnson: Public notice in the newspaper, does that include any dollar amounts? Gary Warren: Just advertising for notice of the hearing. Councilman Johnson: So we can confirm the date of the public hearing without actually deciding until after Friday night which rate? Gary Warren: I really wouldn't let Bluff Creek Drive influence you. You could be talking like on Kerber Blvd., over $100,000.00 difference. Really this is a minor amount. It' s still important to us but it' s minor. Councilman Johnson: When you're paying $9,000.00 in a $100,000.00 difference, yes there' s not much. Councilman Boyt: I would like to see them go out at the higher rate. I think people will ccme in. They'll comnent. The Council may very well decide to accept the lower rate and I think that's one way to make progress on this. Mayor Hamilton: If we send it out at the lower rate... Councilman Boyt: Right, I'm saying send it out at a higher rate. Roger Knutson: I don't have that part of the Statute with me. Mayor Hamilton: I'd prefer to send it out at the higher rate. We can always lower it. Councilman Boyt moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to approve the preliminary assessment roll for lake Lucy Road Improvement Project No. 85-19 at the rate of $11.80 and $23.30 per front foot and to call an assessment hearing for June 27, 1988. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Gary Warren: Point of clarification. ~ higher rate will actually be the amount to cover the excess that we're talking about. Not the higher rate that we talked about earlier... Councilman Boyt: We're covering their portion of that increase, fbviously the City is still a part of that right? Gary Warren: Tneir portion of the increase. Councilman Boyt: Let's take their percentage of the total bill on the road. The total bill on the road went up but they're not paying that whole increase are they? 28 Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 215 c~ry Warren: We're talking 10%~ Mayor Hamilton: $600.00? Councilman Johnson: What was their perce~t of the bill in the first place? Gary Warren: $201,000.00 was assessed of the toem] of $810,000.00. Mayor Hamilton: I think what was presented to us was $600.00 assessed back to the property... Councilman Boyt: It was my understanding that that $6,000.00 was their portion of the interest. Gary Warren: No. Councilman Boyt: No, that was the ~hole increase? Gary Warren: The whole. Councilman Johnson: So it w~uld be 25% of the $6,000.00. Gary Warren: $1,500.00. Councilman Johnson: So now we're arguing over $1,500.007 Councilman Boyt: Alright. I withdraw my motion. For $1,500.00 I'd rather k~-----p it the ~ay it is. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to reconsider the previous motion ar~ send out the assessment roll at the rate assessed in 1986. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Councilman Boyt moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to approve the Preliminary Assessment Roll for Lake Lucy Road Improvement Project No. 85-19 with the rates of $11.25 and $22.20 per front foot and Resolution $$~-47 to call an assessment hearing for June 27, 1988. All .voted in favor ar~ the motion carried. OIL R~CYCLING ORDINANCE, FIRST READING, CITY GF CHA SEN. Councilman Johnson: He says waste oil is considered a Class I f~le liquid. I doubt that. Class I flammable liquid b~ a flash point below 70 degrees F. We're talking about 72 degrees. Unless you mix a lot of gasoline in your motor oil. I currently handle this at w~rk and we do not label a shipment or anything else as a Class I flammable liquid like that at all. It will burn but not, in fact it's not even a Class II flammable liquid or combustible liquid. Councilman Boyt: Maybe what we could do is take some c~mment on this and bring it back. 29 Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 Councilman Johnson: I kind of like the option of you change it and you sell it, you will accept it for recycle. I've worked with small quantities. It's tough to get a oil recycler to come out and pick it up. ~ne only oil recycler you will find that will come and pick our used oil up will only do it after we have 100 gallons. It gets to be a little sloppy. It's inefficient for him to come out for 50 gallons. Say you've got a 55 gallon barrell. You need to have two 55 gallon barrells. If you start talking, if Kenny's Market had two 55 gallon barrels of motor oil, that's just not ccmpatible with a grocery store. A gas station J.s compatible with it. A grocery store is not so I really think that the gas station, our two gas stations in town and if we have new gas stations, that they should provide this service. When we talk about diking, they're talking about tanks and not barrels. If this were hazardous waste such as PCB's or something, we would have to have it in drum quantities but there's also some very cheap ways to do that. Councilman Boyt: This says, as a proponent of this all along, I would like to suggest that we follow up on Jay's suggestions but that we also add a line to point (a) on page 2 which says that used oil should be accepted at no charge. That point (b) under Section 16-40, indicating that the sign should be 8 x 11. It should be large enough to see. I would like to also see staff, since they're going to be reconsidering this looking for more information, consider that we add a portion to this that says any business selling gasoline products shall be required to construct oil storage facilities and accept used oil. That would grandfather in the Holiday stations and those that already have the gas pumps in the ground. It would say to new operations that are going to be selling gasoline, while you' re putting one of those in the ground, you best put scmething in that will hold oil, if we find that it has to be kept in underground storage. I'd like to keep the City out of the oil collection business and I think one way to do it is to make it available. I'm a little concerned that we might be saying to two gas stations in the City of Chanhassen that they have the responsibility for accepting oil for the whole city. That troubles me. I'd like to see that spread out. We're about to have a few gas stations built in town and I think it's appropriate to require th~ to have s~mething to accept used oil even if they don't change it. Mayor Hamilton: I had a couple of questions. I wondered what happened to the Cennex station. Apparently they change oil regularly and sell produts... Big A Auto Parts sell probably more oil in this town than anybody else even though they don't change oil or they're not supposed to. I have seen people in their parking lot changing the oil. They jack the car up and change it right in the lot. I think some work r. cc~ds to be done on this because some of Jo Ann's comments in here about cost not being fair to all of the stores but it would seems as though the cost would be unfair to the stations. They need to do the storage and dispose of used oil, they're going to have to raise their price to ~sate for that which actually takes th~m~ out of the oil selling profit. I suppose if you're going to have your oil changed by a station you can go to the station but it would seem to try to keep this fair to do that if we had sc~e type of a tax or surcharge or something on all oil sold in town to be used for disposal of that oil. I'm not sure how we accomplish that. It's a thought. It would se~m then to be more fair to everybody. I 'm sure you only have a few disposal sites but at least then, and I think as you said Bill, I think it's unfair for 2 or 3 stations to have to pay for disposal of oil that's purchased at Big A or anyplace else. Their price r~nains the same. Now Gary Brown or any other station has to somehow pay for disposing of that oil and how do you 30 Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 accomplish that? I can't believe there isn't a cost to the~. If they're going to accept it, that means they have to have one of their people show someone where it is or take. it and put it into their container. It's not cost free to store this oil for disposal so just scme comnents tonight. I think it's unfair the way it's written. I don't know how we can work it... Councilman Johnson: T~n, if we were a metropolitan goverr~, the taxation side of that would make sense. Quite frankly, I buy my oil ~here it's on sale. Generally it's another town. I buy cases at a time when it's on sale. In other words, that money that is paid... But you do have a good point on Big A and auto part stores. To me that is a ccmpatible place to have a drun or two of oil, if properly stored. They may not have much storage room in there. I would guess it's having it around food it~m~ that it's incompatible with. Selling oil is not a major part of F~_nny's business. It would be a much bigger part of SuperAmerica or Holiday or the new stores. I agree with Bill as far as the new ones. If you're putting in a new gas, putting in a 200 gallon oil tank at the same time is not a large bother. It's not a huge expense in comparison to putting in the big gasoline tanks. The rules are getting tougher and tougher for putting in underground storage tanks. Mayor Hamilton: I think it's a good idea to have whoever's going to he using the oil or have some products to have a disposal site. I don't know if we'll ever have another site like Hanus where they dealt with that kind of thing all the time ar~ tt~y just threw theirs against the wall I guess. I think we can control those types of operations too. If you're working on motors, you're changing oil in equiiznent, you should have a disposal place. I think sc~e of these contractor's yards, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask ~ to do the same thing. Some of those contractor's yards have 20 or 25 or 30 pieces of equipment. Tney obviously change the oil in them. They don't always do it in the garage and of course you find some in the field. In the wintertime when you bring their stuff in and get ~ ready for winter, certainly at that time they could change the oil, we should have some requirenent for then to have scmeplace to dispose of their oil so we can ~--c that they're actually disposing of it s(xneplace other than the ground. Councilman Johnson: Talking about in the field, when a contractor's got a earth grader or whatever out in the field, he goes in ar~ changes tt~ oil which I've noticed a few oil filters and puddle of oil out behind the Chan Vista area one time where they changed the oil in the bulldozer one day there ar~ left the filters and everything. It said Caterpillar right on the side of it so you knew that it wasn't scmebody with a car. Mayor Hamilton: They all do it and it's hard to control. You have to have s~meone standing out there watching. Councilman Johnson: We can put it in the develolm~nt contract too. If you go out there and there's oil filters on the grour~ for Caterpillars... Councilman Boyt: I would like to make two suggestions. The first one is that I think ~ should, if w~ can handle this with the sewage so the City should certainly be able to develop some means of requiring of places that use a great deal of oil to show either a pick-up contract or show appropriate disposal is being done. We can do that with people having to have their septic systems pu~ped out. It's not that much different. I suggest that staff look at that. 31 218 Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 The other thing, I think the City should consider that this is a public ~ and the City needs to get involved in scme way covering part of the expense of a collection stations... It's clear that it's sc~ething that it sounds like the Council is ready to deal with. It's just a matter of working it out so it fits into situations well. REVIEW 1988 GOOSE REMOVAL PROGRAM. Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Boyt seconded to approve the continuation of the Goose R~moval Program for 1988. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ~IL PRESENTATIONS: Mayor Hamilton: Okay, Jay you wanted to talk about the Cheyenne wetlands and the dumping area. Councilman Johnson: I'm not sure if I'm making a right name. This is in the Bloomberg subdivision right off of TH 101. They're filling the wetlands and there's not a darn thing we can really do about it. It's prior to our wetland ordinance and everything else. The builder is putting a house pad 40 foot back versus the normal 30 foot setback. As far as I know they've been asked politely by staff to consider going 30 foot back instead of 40 foot back and not disturbing the wetlands as bad. I would like to politely ask the City Council to ask ti%sm the same thing. Would you please put this, because we have no power to tell them to do it, but we're saying that the City of Chanhassen is concerned about our wetlands and if we could save another 10 foot of this wetlands or even 5 foot. (~romise to where it's not 35 foot back from the street, that we would appreciate it. I would like to see all of us here for this issue also. That's all I really want to do is have staff write a letter, the City Manager write a letter to the builder saying that the City Council would like him to reconsider his position on this building. Even though he's building the foundation right now, he's out there bulldozing it in today, he can still at this point move his house 5 feet forward. Mayor Hamilton: I think that was something that was approve in the 70's. It was probably one of the dumbest things this City ever did. I've asked him personally not to even build any houses there because it's ruined that wetland completely plus the drainage. Tney've messed up the drainage that used to go frc~ Kurvers property over there and now it goes the other way. Kurvers now have the drainage from Bloc~berg's property. It's just a really unfortunate situation. It' s too bad ... Councilman Johnson: It's not Bloc~berg Ccmlpanies doing it. It's just a private builder. Mayor Hamilton: Bloomberg O3mpanies were the ones that had the permit to fill it. I asked ~ not to fill it and they're the ones who sold the property... Councilman Johnson: I do a lot of driving around the City and see little roads and drive down and find a dump at the end. For about a year or so I hadn't found very many than all of a sudden I can find, the big one is Bluff Creek Golf Course that is continuing to be used. Scott Harr is doing an excellent job in 32 Chanhassen City Oouncil - May 23, 1988 22? jumping in and starting to investigage but he tells me there's nothing he can really do other than investigate. What I've seen other cities do is whs~ they find a dump site they put up a sign right there prewarning them, no dumping. By order of tt~ City ~ouncil there will be no d~ping at this site. Mayor Hamilton: Violators will be prosecuted. Councilman Johnson: It tells them we're already looking at that site. What it does they go find another site but it may turn some people off. At one. site we went out to actually look at a lilac bush and ended up finding a dump site along the side of the road. S~me people just dump their garbage with their addressed mail in it and everything. Scott's going to be looking into that one. The County is also looking at this. Don Ashworth: We can't go on private property but w~ can put it on public right-of-way as you enter those areas. Councilman Johnson: Is there anyway we can say, if you abandon, tear down a house ar~ abandon the property, most of these sites are old farms so there's a convenient little road that we have to block that road? When you tear down the old fannstead that you block that road? The existing purpose of the road, you're not using it for your farm equipment then you have to block that road. Don Ashworth: There's no way you can do that. They come back for approval from the City and ask for it otherwise. Councilman Boyt: How about an abandoned roadway situation? Cour~ilman Johnson: It's an abandoned driveway into an old house and ~y goes in and starts d~ping stuff in there. If we find that there's dumping being done on this so there's scmething illegal going on that road, would that be sufficient for us to then close the road? Mayor Hamilton: You could do the similar signing, ask the owner to do signage that I've see~ in other areas in the County. The same situation. They stick a sign at the entrance to the driveway that says no trespassing, no dumping. ~ney make it explicit ar~ we're watching and you hadn't better go in there .... Put up something. Councilman Johnson: Ooe thing we are doing is that our public safety group is going to the owners and sayir~ you will clean these up ar~ once the owner has cleaned up the place 2 or 3 times, I'm sure he will want to do sc~ething. I just wanted to see if there were any suggestions. I guess we can put the signs in the right-of-way. O~e of the problems with doing that is then sc~abody can run off and hit your dump sign. Mayor Hamilton: The thing to do is to work with the property owner. Bill, you wanted to talk about lot size and lar~mark trees. Councilman Boyt: I have two areas that I would like staff to investigate for potential ordinance. (1~ lot size, I think given the situation that we had a month or so ago on Lake Minnewashta pointed out that we should address the issue of what happens when a developer comes in to develop property and the abutting properties are considerably larger. I would propose that we investigate a lot 33 Chanhassen City Council - May 23, 1988 blending adjustment to our ordinance that says that when development of property adjoining existing lots of 30,000 square feet or more, those abutting lots shall be required to match that size up to 30,000. I think that what we're offering to the developer is to put a lot in next to another large lot. By saying 30,000 that means that lot could someday be resubdivided if the person so chose to do that but that it would give protection to the people with the larger lots. I feel we really had our hands tied in that situation. I think this will give us that flexibility. Barbara Dacy: The Planning Cc~mission also asked staff to look at that issue. They weren't as specific as you did but now that things are back to full staff, we're going to push for that. Mayor Hamilton: At least a transition or something so it's not from half an acre to 12,000. Councilman Boyt: I think that one possible modification of this might be that when you've got a lot greater than 15,000 square feet, the abutting lots will match you up to 30,000 square feet. I don't think we should be in a position where we require a developer to come in and build a 1 acre lot next to a 1 acre lot. That's overly restrictive. Mayor Hamilton: You' 11 see the same thing with the Eckankar property as it develops. You have Greenwood Shores and those are all third of an acre I believe. We wrestled with this lot size with a proposal for that site. The lots abutting those were not the same size and we eventually got there but we'll see that issue again because whoever's going to develop that is going to try to come in with small lots. There should be a transition. Either the same size or just slightly less than the other addition. Councilman Boyt: So let's pursue that with some haste. Then the second ordinance I'd like to investigate is I think we should have a landmark tree ordinance. I think that developers have mentioned several times that if they w~re a private lot owner they could come in and cut all the trees down. I don't think the City should allow that to happen. I would propose that we consider saying that any tree with a 10 inch or larger caliper, unless dead or diseased would require approval of the City to be removed. Or a modification to look at when you're investigating that is that any healthy tree that is removed shall be replaced with a 4 inch caliper or larger trees to equal the caliper of the tree that was removed. If a 10 inch tree was removed, it can be replaced by two 4's and a 2 for instance. That doesn' t exactly replace it but it gets at the idea that we need scme means of controlling trees that have become prominent in a given neighborhood. You all dealt with that highway situation and the driveway just the way I would have also dealt with that two weeks ago but I think this again gives us the ability to say that we're not treating developers really any different than we're treating anyone. Councilman Boyt moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:50 p.m.. Submitted by Don Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 34