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1988 02 08CH~ RE( FEE Act cou Job COU ST~ Jo APP to dis All CO~ ap~ Man NHASSEN CITY COUNCIL ULAR MEETING RUARY 8, 1988 lng Mayor Horn called the meeting to order. NCILMEN PRESENT: Councilman Boyt, Councilman Horn, .and ~uncil~a~-. nson NCILMAN ABSENT: Councilman Geving FF PRESENTr Don-A~hworth, RO~e~' Knu~sgg, Gary War~e.n,-~arbara ba6Y, Ann 01sen, Larry Brown, and Tod~ GerhaTdt - ROVAL OF AGENDA: Counci'lma~-Johnso'n moyed, .co.unciimaD 'Bo~t'~ec0nded · approve the agenda as amended by Councilman Johnson who wanted to cuss the Council's position on private roads accessing arterials. voted in favor and motion carried. SENT AGENDA: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Boyt seconded to rove the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City ager's recommendations: a. Riley Lake Meadows, Richard Vogel: 1. Approval of Plans and Specifications b. Final Plat Approval, CHADDA 2nd Addition d. Accounts Payable dated February 8, 1988 ee City Council Minutes dated January 25, 1988 Planning Commission Minutes dated January 2~, 1988 Ail voted in favor and motion carried. VI~ITOR~ PRESENTATION.: ~ ', - Th re were no visitor's presentations. . . WE~ A C AND AP] (M~ Jo bel Th~ ma] LAND ALTERATION PERMIT TO CONSTRUCT A 'CHANNEL AND B6~T TURN~ROUND IN LASS A WETLAND ON LAKE LUCY ON PROPERTY ZONED RR, RURAL RESIDENTIAL LOCATED ON LOT 5, BLOCK 2, LAKE LUCY HIGHLANDS, ERIC RIVKIN, ~ LICANT · yor Hamilton arrived during discussion of this item.) Ann Olsen: The staff has a decision that we do not have jurisdiction ow the ordinary high water mark which is the 956.1 contour elevation. refore, all of the proposed alteration below that ordinary high water k is just under the DNR jurisdiction which the applicant already has eived approval for. The applicant stated that he is going to amend City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 2 his plan so that all of the construction is below the ordinary high water mark. We are requesting that he submit a registered survey to show exactly where the 956.,1 el~v~tion..is .in ~elati. o~sh:i~-to h~s. . . . proposed alteration. Then we 'c'an determine if he wili'be 'compl'e'tei~ in open~.pu~!ic water..~Th~re, lst~ll, will b~.a,.port, ion of we~.~d.tha.~ he will have to cross that will be under city-'jurisdiction. D~t~'rm'ihe.~'h9' -. amount of that. We are also, since we will not be able to have a wetland alteration permit for the channel and the proposed turn ar'ound, I would think, if Council would like for staff to petition the DNR to add the conditions that we had to the DNR standard permit. They had said that we could petition them to do that. As far as tonight, there's really no action to be taken except for any alteration that will occur beyond the ordinary high water mark again, which we don't know the exact extent of that and the applicant has again stated that he is going to have only the channel below the ordinary high water mark. Councilman Horn: So there will be no dredging or alteration above the high water mark? Jo Ann Olsen: That's what he claims. We just need a plan to verify that. Councilman Horn: You indicated that you would have to cross the wetlands. Could you expand on that a little? Jo Ann Olsen: This is the original proposal and since that,"this has been reduced in size but whenever we've been out to the site, and when Mr. Rivkin has shown where the ponding area and turnaround is going to be, that has always been-within ~h~etland area. He~is..~ow...stating that he is going to be moving this down "even further So"~ki's jus~ an assumption that this .will stil%, wher~.he~s removing. ~.t will-still be, if where it is proposed now is ,within the wgtland, he.w~l~.m6ve ~t back towards the lake. I'm assuming that will stili remain wetl'and area but will be under State control. Again, ,~e'r.e gQing ~o..haue to .have.a ~ registered survey showing exactly where' ~ha~ 956.1 con,our ~s. Councilman Horn: If I understand you right, really there's no action that we take this evening except to request that we get a plan for what will be done and you're asking us if you want us to have you petition the DNR to include your recommendations in theirs? Jo Ann Olsen: If the applicant was going to maintain the proposal, than he would still have to receive a wetland alteration permit for that part of the dredging that would be above the ordinary high water mark. If we do determine that there still is wetland above, he will still have to receive a wetland alteration permit just for the traffic across to dredge out the channel within the public waters. So he will most likely still have to receive some sort of a wetland alteration permit. Councilman Horn: But at this point we don't know what that plan is? Do you have any questions Jay? · . Councilman Johnson: Yes, several. 956.1, do you know how long"~go it was that that was determined as the ordinary high water mark and is it Cit1Counci. 1 Meet.lng February 8, 1988 - Page sti Jo Cou lak~ I'v~ 198 act one- Feb foo 1 the ordinary high water mark? nn Olsen: It was just determined. ~cilman Johnson: Okay, so that's good. If I saw it in the 1952, the ~'s probably changed since then. I think from some of the provisions seen from the other people, the work has to be done by March 1 of · If we have to give him a wetlands alteration permit and we don't upon it tonight, the next meeting is the 22nd, he's going to have heck of a schedule to get the construction done the last week of uary because he's going to be disposing of the spoils within 20M of a wetlands. He's going to be crossing a wetlands and driving thrpugh a we'tlands and'we have'to protect that wetlands. '-If the plan is sti~l to do this this year, and if the Watershed District is going to hol~ firm on their March 1st deadline of.getting this accomplished and he ~oesn't get a wetland alteration approval from us tonight, will it be possible 'for him to meet the March tst-deadtine if we wait 2 weeks until the Eri~ not~ was pac] fee! num] tak~ the whel exa~ pri. I'm her Cou Eri the I h~ and lakl tha, 29t] the Tha' pri, for map thi lin Cou~ next meeting? Rivkin: To answer all your questions. I got the plan, I was only fled I think, last Friday that the meeting I was supposed to be at tonight so I didn't have time to get these to you to get into the '.et. As you can see, the channel has been moved forward about 20 '. so there is no excavation required in the upland area. These ~ers over here are pretty meaningless right now because they were ~n from a Federal Survey that was done back when the land was first, topography was described. There is a stake here but we don't know e it really is. I will do a survey to find out where the 956.1 ~tly resides but I know for sure that the terrain suddenly drops from narily terrestrial to primarily aquatic quite rapidly right here. going to draw for you a section of what it looks like right through ~cilman Johnson: Actually the question was, if we don't do th-is ght, are you in trouble and won't be able to do it this year? Rivkin: I don't think so because I'll show you that I don't think 'e is any jursidiction that you have. There's no wetlands that .ye to tresspass here. I called the Watershed District this morning they gave me the f~gures, the ~verage level of the lake, where the is in relation to 956.1. I'll draw where the-lake lewet is., say :'s 955 and the average during the last year from January to January of this year~ They measure'every month. So let's-assume this is lake level right now, the ordinary high water mark is right here. ~'s 956.1. The terrain pretty much looks like this. It goes from narily aquatic to primarily terrestrial right here. From here ,ard is the line from your designated wetlands, according to your own · This is the lot and this line right here, I don't know whether light area is Class B or whether it's Class A or what, but this right here is this line right here. ~cilman Johnson: You can tell that from that drawing? Eri: Rivkin: Your definition of wetlands is from primarily terrestrial City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 4 to primarily aquatic vegetation. Okay, that's in your own ordinance. That occurs here. It doesn't occur up here. It doesn't occur up here. It doesn't occur down here. It occurs here. Okay? That is still below, that is in DNR jurisdiction. It is not under the control of the City. Therefore, there is no trespassing across any wetland in your control. There's no dredging under your control so I feel it is possible to get it in this year if I don't have to keep finding anymore big surprises. Councilman Johnson: Will your spoil area be within 200 feet of a controlled wetland? Eric Rivkin:' It will be right here but that's not a wetland. Councilman Johnson: Is it within 200 feet'of a controlled wetland? Eric Rivkin: It's within 200 feet of the construction site and the wetland? Councilman Johnson: You need a wetland alteration permit if it's within 200 feet. If you build a house within 200 feet, you need a wetland alteration permit. If you put a road within 200 feet. If you make a change within 200 feet of the wetland, the oridnance says you need a wetland alteration permit. This project is going to require a wetland alteration permit unless you're going to haul all of that completely off. Eric Rivkin: I didn't understand your wetland alteration permit in that sense. Councilman Johnson: I think I'm correct. Jo Ann? Jo Ann Olsen: That's true. Any development within 200 feet requires a wetland alteration permit. Councilman Johnson: When do you plan on building on this lot? I notice this is a vacant lot. That we're putting access to a vacant lot. Eric Rivkin: I'm going to be building this spring. My down payment is · with the builder right now and it's one of those things. · Councilman Johnson': pond? So you plan to put a dock or anything into this Eric Rivkin: There's no need to. I don't have to walk through the slosh to get there. Councilman Johnson: 30 foot out? What if your survey comes out and you're another Eric Rivkin: I don't believe it will. The water right now is almost a foot below the high water mark and from here, this blue line out here is about level. I'm not going down any further and it's not aquatic Feb veg Rig sud out Cou req pro wet wet Eri lin. Cou Co~ Co~ Cou cle end imf mig ste Eri, her. but wet re~ Co~ Council Meet .ing ruary 8, 1988 - Page 5 etation at all. The area was heavily farmed up until 2 years ago. ht up to this line. It made a barrier up there and it's kind of ~en. I also want to so through some other issues that were flushed here besides just the survey. ncilman Johnson: That's what I'm trying to do because if we does uire a permit and you don't have one, it's just not going to be =eed. I want to make sure that you realize that you may still need a lands alteration permit even though the dredging won't be in a land that we control which we have the power to give'y6'u tdni~ht. Rivkin: That's all I had right now. Any questions about where the are? ici lean Hofh;'-'' Dd"'"you have--'~'ny"'ot~r ~u'esti0nS Jay? ncilman"'Johnson: I'm trying -~o ffg'6're out a motionS'." -:'-' ~ - ~cilman Horn: I think we should-f'~nd :lout if 'Bi'l"l h~:s ar~' ~iestions. ncilman Boyt: I think the applicant and Jo Ann have both been very ar to tell us that the 956.1 line is where the City's responsibility s depending on which direct'ionyou're moving. In terms of where our act starts and stops, I would think that up to the 956 line, you ht like to have some sort of' wooden dock. Are you just planning to ) off there? Rivkin: It's a jump. It's possible that I might put a dock in but right now all I've got is a canoe and possibly later a sailboat those can be beached there. When we had the floods last July, I out there to see how high the water came up and it didn't even =h up to about here. This stayed pretty dry. ncilman Boyt: I guess my concern is, I don't think we're setting an~ precedence by giving you the ability to put a dock in over a certain reasonable distance so steps or something might mak~ we'~e really gone through the issues pretty thoroughly. -The appiican~ see~s to be well prepared. I, like Jay, would like to see an elevation. I w~uld also like to request that when we get around to considering some sor~ of moti. qn here~ it would be my in~n~.~o make a mo~i. oq tha~.._ . . the st~ff peti'ti6h the DNR to i~l-Ude o'ur conditions."' I:suspecf' that , .... ~. - . %- . . ~. - . . - . · . -,~ .~.'. -.-- ~ ' · the~ woul'd do that;' 'I would p~opose that t~e Czty g6-'on~record as bezng opP,sed t6 .the ~'D~ permit. That-iB.n~,~ ~6-ing to keep th~'ff0~ ~pprov~ng the permit'. It'~just happens to ~e~I~ct~hat I think We'~r~-~oin~-2 May The cou let Cou rep ~r Hamilton: I've been in favor of ff~ right fr6~the~begi6ning. only comment I had and question perhaps was, on the dates when he ld do the work seemed to be in conflict. December 1 through March , 1988. That's condition 8. ncilman Johnson: ~ated. It's a Watershed District requirement being May.~r Hamilton: I just think the dates are wrong. It says during the r~ty Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 6 period of time, the permit shall be issued for a restricted period of time for the months of December 1 through March 1 of 1988. I don't think that's correct. It must be December 1, 1987 through March 1, 1988. But I don't know that we can restrict it to one year. If Mr. Rivkin doesn't do it right now, I think the permit runs for a longer period of time than one year. If he can't accomplish it this year, he can do it next year. So that's why I was kind of questioning that whole item 8. The time. Councilman Boyt: The DNR is the one that's regulating the dredging. Didn't they set the dates? Eric Rivkin: To June 1st. Councilman Boyt: They set it from December through June? Jo Ann Olsen: No, they said December 1, 1987 to March 1, 1988. Eric Rivkin: Oh, for the dredging? Councilman Boyt: Yes. Mayor Hamilton: Condition 5, excavated materials shall be removed above the ordinary high water mark. I guess just to be clearly noted where that was or where they were going to be removed to I guess is what I was concerned about. That area where those materials would be put. I guess I'd like to know where that is so that we know exactly where they're going to be put. Councilman Horn: That will be part of your plan? Where the dredging materials will be placed? Eric Rivkin: Yes, it's on the map there. It's been there since day one .... there's a note there about, since there is loosestrife and he indicated that there is loosestrife in the spoils, that the Department of Agriculture has to give me a permit. Their regulations about how to dispose of that are in the recommendations of that permit. They've given me a number of... They've given me verbal approval and he says the written permit is on it's way. I described the situation to him and he didn't see any problems with it. Basically what we end up doing is we mix up the dirt and top soil and spread it around and kill all the dead vegetation, the seeds still remain and.grow back and-plant-grasses. Not tall grasses and maintain it for a while through mowing and it keeps the plant from coming up. We do' that for a couple of years and it should establish itself. I could pull the young plans.' He said he would teach me how to spot them. Councilman Horn: I had no more questions either. The only issue before us is whether we want to make a recommendation to the DNR. Other than that, we can instruct staff to monitor the plan and the progress. Does anyone wish to make such a motion? Councilman Johnson: My motion is going to be much broader than that because we have to issue him a wetland alteration permit or he can't do Ci Fe~ th~ CoC Cou Eri Co~ alt tod yea Eri thi Cou Dis Eri Cou and Eri Ail Cou Eri Cou DNf Er] mee Coul bec, wet tha' anl~ two pro Cou tha con. .y Council Meeting .ruary 8, 1988 - Page 7 project. ncilman Horn: Not until we have the plan. ncilman Johnson: This isn't the plan? c Rivkin: The DNR has to review that and issue me a new permit based this new information. That has to come back with their provisions, ncilman Johnson: What would happen to you if your wetland eration permit is not approved until February 22nd? Two weeks from ay. Will you be able to complete your project, your dredging this r? Is that a concern to you? c Rivkin: It's a concern to me, yes. It's kind of tight but I'm fident it can be done. You're saying that March 1st you don't allow ngs .on.~the-~ake?~.- .. --- .,- '~ ~'~' ~- .o. ~. : j ] ;.' f ncilman Johnson: .The permit restriction in here from.the 'Watershed trier is that. you.do all your dredging by March lsd.' · : . .i - <'T "13~"- ' - i ;-. c Rivkin: I'll comply with that. ncilman Johnson: But if you can't start until February 23rd, that es you 5 week days. I don't know if you're going to work Saturday Sunday. I don't know how long it's going to take and whatever. Rivkin: I have a contractor and the contrator has already signed. have to do is sign it and send it back. ~cilman Johnson: So he's available to do this? = Rivkin: He's aware of all the conditions of the permit. ncilman Johnson: So if we table this waiting for the survey and the permit, we're not going to be delaying you? ~ Rivkin: I don't know. There seems to be a surprise I come to this ting. I don't know what it will be this time. :~ '-'~ : ' ' , ~cilman Horn: I think the question you get, what we've heard is, ~use you're dredging within 290 feet of a wetland, you do need a [and alteration permit. Apparently you weren't aware of that if t's what you're talking about for a surprise. , ~cilman Johnson: If we put that to bed tonight,, there won't~be ~ore. If we wait two weeks, I can't guarantee you there won't be ~ore. I guarantee I won't gi~e you,-much'more'because I~'won~,t: be here weeks from tonight but Dale will and Dale was more~.~pposed .to..this ect than I was. .cilman Boyt: I'd like to suggest something. I'd like to propose we submit a letter to the DNR requesting that they include our itions in their permit and further, that we recommend that they deny City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 8 the permit. I fully believe they won't deny the permit but I want to be on record as opposed to it as a city. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to submit a letter to the DNR requesting that they include the City's conditions in their permit and recommend to the DNR that they deny the permit. Councilman Boyt and Councilman Johnson voted in favor, Councilman Horn and Mayor Hamilton voted in opposition to the motion. The motion failed with a tie vote of 2 to 2. Councilman Horn: propose? Is there an alternate motion anyone would like to Councilman Johnson: Yes, I've got about 9 conditions going here. Because it looks like the DNR is going to approve this and there's nothing we can do about that part of it, I don't see any necessity for us to further delay the applicant if We can. If we do it by approving a wetlands alteration permit tonight. Councilman Johnson: the DNR? Is this the only plan you plan on submitting to Eric Rivkin: I've already submitted it. Councilman Johnson: this plan? So the area of where you're going to place this is Councilman Horn: Is that your motion? Councilman Johnson: Do we need a performance security bond? I don't think so, for this one. Councilman Boyt: What about conditions of the staff? Eric Rivkin: The provisions of the DNR permit spell out the erosion control plan. I have to get the Watershed recommended 3 or 4 provisions in there. They are in the permit and they are covered. Councilman Johnson: Does staff have any problem with erosion'control? Jo Ann Olsen: We haven't really looked at it yet. This is the first time I've seen this. Mayor Hamilton: He's not doing anything in an area that we ~ontrol, how can we require... Jo Ann Olsen: One of the conditions of the Fish and Wildlife was also to stabilize where the spoils are going to be placed. Councilman Johnson: We have control of that area. Ci_~y Council Meeting February 8~ 1988 ' Page 9 Ma~ Cog wit Eri Cou Cou Cou You Eri Cou Cou dis Cou reg dis per you wet Cou I s Cou to Cou our arb to whe hay, Co%~ thil thil it DNR Cou~ A1 t, wit] or Hamilton: Right, I realize that. ncilman Johnson: .He has erosion control around the side of that h our standard Type II erosion control detail. c Rivkin: I got that from Larry Brown. ncilman Horn: Do you have anything else to add to. your motion Jay? ncilman Johnson: Advice from staff. Anything else to add to that? ncilman Boyt: What about the other points of staff's conditions? 'ye selected a couple. c Rivkin: Can I have further discussion about this? ncilman Boyt: Not yet. ncilman Horn: We have a motion on the floor. Is there further cussion about it. ncilman Boyt: I have a question about it and the question is, in ard to the disposal. Jay brought up earlier, material is being posed that is in our control that does require a wetland alteration alt because it's within 20~ feet of the wetland. That's not part of r motion. I didn't see anything in the motion about approving a land alteration permit. ncilman Johnson: That was the very first part of what I said then tatted listing the conditions. ~cilman Boyt: What you're proposing then is to basically allow this forward as proposed to the DNR? scilman Johnson: The DNR controls all dredging, no. dredging within area. I think our hands are tied. I think we would be somewhat itrary and capricious, or whatever those $2.~0 lawyer words work out say that I feel we're hard pressed to deny. It's going to be there ther he has to haul it totally off site or not. At this point we ~ to be reasonable. I don't like it. ~cilman Boyt: You make a good point about being reasonable and on ~ particular issue I'm going to be unreasonable and vote against ~ simply because I think by voting against it we would actually make impossible to do. I'm not for the canal being dredged whether the supports it or not. .~cilman Johnson moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to approve a Wetlands .=rations Permit for dredging a channel within DNR controlled space .~ the following conditions: i · The only dredging will be outside of the jurisdiction of Chanhassen controlled wetlands, on other side of the 956.1 contour line. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 10 · · The applicant submit a certified survey showing where the 956.1 contour is located. The spoils area and the equipment movement area staked and marked and approved by the City Staff prior to any construction. The purpose of this is to assure that the equipment is not driving throughout the wetlands. The adjacent wetlands and throughout the area. · Have a new plan submitted to the City that includes the information that the DNR wants. · The applicant will follow all conditions of the DNR permit, the Wateshed District permit, the Department of Agriculture permit and any other applicable permit. · The dredged material will be removed and placed-as shown on the plan dated "Revised February 5, 1988" and submitted to the City Council tonight. · · The applicant shall submit a detailed grading and erosion control plan for City approval prior to construction of the site.. . . The applicant shall notify the city 48 hours prior to commencement of excavation and shall provide written notice to the City Engineer prior, to completion of the project and shall receive approval by the City Engineer. Ail voted in favor except Councilman Boyt who opposed and motion carried. Eric Rivkin: I don't think it's necessary to have a wetland alteration permit at this point because I already need everything outlined. I meet city standards as far as erosion control is concerned, which also, by the way, meets the DNR conditions that the Wateshed set on for erosion control. The way in which the spoils are going to be handled. Roger Knutson: If you don't want the permit, you're not putting the spoils there. Do you want to put the spoils there? Eric Rivkin: You're saying, I have to... Roger Knutson: Without the permit, you can't do it. Councilman Johnson: We just passed the permit for you. Eric Rivkin: Alright. Sorry, it's hard to follow this. As far as the points, did you vote no for the performance security? Roger Knutson: You don't need it. City Council Meeting Fe~.ruary 8, 1988 - Page 11 Er coz Co~ Co~ it st¢ NA~ 21 Bar COD lo, bui l~l app di a cla the c Rivkin: Point 7, this additional erosion barriers, you don't have trol over that. Point 10, the deed restriction. ncilman Johnson: That wasn't included. ncilman Horn: 7 through 11 are not in our motion. The only thing is is the wetland alteration permit which we just granted. That's to re the spoils within 200 feet of the wetland. CY LEE AND PATRICK BLOOD, PROPERTY LOCATED ON THE NORTH SIDE OF TH AND THE EAST SIDE OF TH 101, ZONED BF, FRINGE BUSINESS DISTRICT: A. CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A CONTRACTOR'S YARD ON 13 ACRES, B. WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT TO CONSTRUCT WITHIN 200 FEET OF A CLASS A WETLAND. bara Dacy: The property is zoned BF, Business Fringe. A tractor's yard was recently put into the ordinance to be allowed as ~itional uses. The hash mark on the transparency here shows the ation of the entire 13 acre parcel. The location of the proposed [ding is in the upper northwest corner of the site adjacent to TH · The Planning Commission considered this item and recommended ~oval to the Council with 20 some conditions and out of their :ussion they amended four of those conditions. Condition 4 ~ifying the pumping contract provision with the city. Number 25, ~ specified that any expansion of this activity beyond 12 vehicles wou'ld require a conditional use permit. Number 26, that the site plan be-revised to shift the building 20 feet to the east and finally, if the silt,.= is to be subdivided in the future, that the City would look to req COn Com cen iss, Co~ spe ~on, pril ano peri acc~ mee cas, thei the' plal res, iss, ord, airing the necessary right-of-way for frontage road to make ~ections to the properties to the east. To summarize the Planning nission's discussion would be to basically say that their discussion ~ered around traffic issues and access to the site. A couple of ~es that I'd like to talk about further, beyond the Planning aission consideration. One of those items was that the Commission ~t a good deal of time on whether or not they should add on a ]ition about restricting access coming into and out of this site and narily requiring access to proceed south on TH 101 to prevent access ~g north. As you'll note in the Minutes, the Commission asked about :her application at the Merle Volk site and that conditional use nit and a condition indeed was placed in that permit to restrict ss to CR 18. However, I think that the Planning Commission, at that ing, it was decided that that condition was not necessary in this · Secondly, another major issued discussed by the Commission at r meeting was access to the site from TH 101. Again, collectively Commission decided that the access proposed in the proposed site was adequate. A couple of the members did have a lot of rvations about this access so staff went further to research this ~e as to whether or not access could be gained from the east. In ~r to do that, there is an intermediate property on the east side City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 12 owned by Mr. Jack Brambilla' There is a vacant building at this location right now. It's approximately across from the SuperAmerica site which is located right here. Mr. Brambilla indicated that although he would opposed to getting an easement for road access through his property, he is interested in selling the property. The property adjacent to his property has been approved for a cold storage site and was granted a driveway access permit by MnDot. That property owner would also have to grant an easement to connect into his driveway. Upon discussing this issue with MnDot, they gave me the following guidelines. They would not like to see this driveway access at this point because of it's location to the traffic light which is at the Shakopee light approximately here. They said if the City is to encourage a frontage road, they would be more than happy to assist us in that effort and they would encourage a frontage road to relieve TH 212. However, they said the best place for a frontage road intersection would be 1,000 feet to the east of this stop light which would put it approximately in this area. They said that a by-pass lane would also have to be added in both diretions and that some of the access points where the motel and the SuperAmerica would have to be reoriented. In sum, to create an intersection there and meet MnDot's guidelines, they said would cost approximately $500,000.00. The question was put to MnDot that they're still satisfied with the access onto TH 101. They said because the grading plan is proposing increasing the level of the property so that the driveway is entering TH 101 at a consistent elevation, that would improve the access as well as making a "T" of this driveway as opposed to what is currently existing at this time. Secondly, they felt that the traffic volumes on TH 101 are right at this time at approximately 3,250. The traffic volumes on TH 212 are 20,000. MnDot does not want to encourage additional traffic interruptions on such a busy major arterial. They recognize that this is located approximately 250 feet or so south of the railroad crossing over TH 101 which I think we can all agree is not the best. However, they stated that this is an adequate distance for sight distance as well. I should also point out to the Council that the bridge to the south of this property over the creek, does have a 5 ton restriction and the applicant, through the MnDot permit process would have to comply with that tonage restriction. Finally, one final comment for Council consideration tonight is that the applicant has been reviewing their building plans for cost and potential construction yet this year. In so doing, as was required by the Commisison, they have found that they do have to sprinkler the building because Appendix C of the Building Code says that if you're over 3,000 square feet in this type of use, you have to provide for sprinklering. As we are aware, there is no city water in this location. In order to sprinkler a building of this size, they would have to install a reservoir sufficient in size and with the appropriate equipment to sprinkler this building. At a minimum, this would cost approximately $5,000.00 to ~6,000.00. The applicant indicated to me today that they are going to reduce the size of the building so it goes below the 3,000 square foot threshhold. Given that the building is constructed of concrete block, as long as the Council imposes the other conditions recommended by the Fire Department as listed in the staff report, staff is willing to withdraw that requirement. So staff recommendation is based on the Planning Commission's review, their recommended conditions minus the condition sprinklering the building. Fe~ Ma~ , Pa~ br~ Co~ rea St~ ac( brf thai do~i peg rea tu! tha th~ end kn~ ge' tr~ a.] do. ru~ ev~ so no~ th~ st~ we co ad~ gr go Pat uno ma' fo: th, Col Pa~ yal GW y Council Meeting · ruary 8, 1988 - Page 13 or Hamilton: Patrick or Nancy, anything additional you want to add? ., rick Blood: I think everything in the last few meetings has been ught up. ' ncilman Johnson: Once again, similar to the last issue which I lly was probably one of my more gut wrenching ones I've ever had, the te is controlling us again here on this one. I'd much rather see ess down to TH 212 than onto TH 101 right next to that railroad dge. I went out there and stopped and looked at that yesterday and cars, I don't know how the people pass underneath that bridge coming n that hill as fast as they do. It just amazed me the speed some ple were going through there. Your drivers are going to need some 1 good training for them to get going. Coming south and stopping and ning left there could be a real safety hazard. Coming underneath t bridge, the people going as fast as some people do on there, if ~re's a truck sitting there turning left, it's .going to get rear ed. They're not expecting to see stopped vehicles there. I don't .w what to do about that other than what I talked to Barb today about .ting caution signs up there or whatever. Stopped vehicles ahead or ~cks entering. I guess another point to be made is the times within ordinance says that a contractor's yard shall not start until 7:00 · and go until 6:00 p.m. or something like that. What this in effect s at this location is requires trucks to be going out into traffic at Ih hour. Right at the 7:00 rush hour. I don't know if it might be ~n better to get them out earlier or what here. Of course, there are few trucks, really I don't know if that's that huge of a thing. I've sat there at 7:00 in the morning to see what kind of traffic we get ough there. That's a concern of mine. I don't know how to address The other one was capping of the wells that's discussed in the ff report. I'd like to have a condition that the capping of the ls be with the proper permits with the Department of Health as .rdinated through the Public Safety Department. Whether that's an itional item added to it or worked into 18 or 24. I want to make e that that well is properly capped so nothing gets down into the .und water there through an easy channel. Is the 5 ton weight limit ng to cause you a problem? :rick Blood: For the most part, we are keeping our residential trucks let 2,000 pound trucks. They are small retriever garbage trucks. A ority of the trucks will be them. Right now we have two big ones and ~e I say, the rest of them are small. For the most.part I don't :esee getting too many more big ones. Possibly one more big one :bin a year or so, maybe two years but for the most part it would be ~se smaller trucks. That's the basis of our company and that's what are paying the state for. mcilman Johnson: When you say big one, or the full sized? :rick Blood: The biggest we have is the 20 yard. They are both :d rearend loaders and the other ones, we'll be running up to 17,000 They won't even reach that on some occasions. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 14 Nancy Lee: They are nothing more than a full sized pick up truck with a small load garbage packer on the back. Councilman Johnson: 20 yards is a lot more than a small load garbage packer. What's the empty weight of the big ones? Patrick Blood: Right in the neighborhood of, just guessing, I think it's between 20 and 23. Something like that. Maybe 25. Councilman Johnson: So about 10 tons? Patrick Blood: Yes, about 10 tons. Councilman Johnson: So you can't go south out of there with your big trucks. You have to go north. Nancy Lee: 5 tons per axle? Councilman Johnson: It just says 5 tons. I'm not sure if it's 5 tons per axle. Nancy Lee: It is per axle. Councilman Johnson: The sign does not say per axle. Roger Knutson: That's how they weigh things. Patrick Blood: If that's the case, these trucks are illegal empty. Councilman Johnson: Because that's a very important bridge to the City of Chanhassen. Patrick Blood: They couldn't really limit that to strictlY 5 tons because that is a major highway up through there and I know there are a lot of company semis that go up through there, they have to weigh approximately that much. Councilman Johnson: As long as it's 5 ton per axle we're okay. I really appreciate the good job they're doing on, it looks like they're being very cooperative with the City. I think staff's enjoyed working with you. The berming and the nice building and stuff, I'd like to compliment you on that even though I was giving you a hard time there for a while. Councilman Horn: I just had one question. Isn't that bridge that we're concerned about, the overpass, isn't that on a section of railroad that will be abandoned? Councilman Johnson: It's the creek bridge. Barbara Dacy: Yes, that railroad. He's talking about the creek bridge and the railroad bridge is the railroad that is currently under application for abandonment. Cit~ Council Meeting Heb uary 8, 1988 - Page 15 Councilman Horn: So at that point, there would be an option to eli linate that one lane section through there? Bar ~ara Dacy: Yes, there is potential for that expanding. Councilman Horn: Which appears to me to be the biggest traffic problem. It'~ hard to justify sight distance problems when you've got a one lane roa th~ 22 pr~ Cou bel the Ba! el~l Ba on~ ov, Co~ Ba~ si bu Co~ th~ Ba wh of up Co a[] Ba ncilman Boyt: I would like staff to point out where the 3 foot ming is. I see berm written down here but I'd like to know how far t extends. bara Dacy: From here to here. ncilman Boyt: I gather, from trying to get some feel from the ration, that this building is fairly well hidden, and the parking a is screened from TH 1017 Is it tucked back in there to that ent? bara Dacy: Yes sir, that's correct. .The elevation of TH 101 is her than the floor elevation here and you can see by the contours in e that they are pushing the rear of the buildings into that slope, :o the back. By the time you make this curve here, a drive, number you'd be concentrating on the road but you would really have to look r your shoulder to the left to see this building. ~ncilman Boyt: How about from the other side, from the south? ibara Dacy: From the south, you would have more of the vista into the :e. That's where we noted that the additional evergreen trees will ~d to be planted. Not only along the TH 212 side but along the TH 101 te as well. There are 8 deciduous trees out there which help somewhat the evergreens will help. ncilman Boyt: On that excavation line there to the southwest, is going to be blocked from view? =bara Dacy: There is an existing stand of woods here along the ~ekbed here. To answer your question, you are going to see the site ~n you approach the driveway here and then you will see another shot it just because of the openness of the driveway but then you're going ~ill so fast. Uncilman Boyt: Coming from the south, about what kind of a distance I dealing with in terms of being screened off that's going to affect at view? ~bara Dacy: If you had a tree line here and the rise in the elevation TH 101 here, this probably wouldn't... ] going through TH 101. That's really to me critical in this issue, fact that that will be able to be corrected. I can't believe that trips a day is going to make a huge difference to TH 101 so I have no blem with this request. @ ~-~'~-~ty Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 16 Councilman Boyt: My related question is what kind of density are we proposing on these pines? Barbara Dacy: There is about 100 feet between the center line of the driveway up to the 780 contour. Even a little bit before that, you're way beyond seeing that. The landscaping ordinance requires that you have to have opaque screening on a continuous basis on the ratio of 1 tree for every 40 feet and what we did to calculate that was actually to use the distance of here so we are requiring more than is adequate to be placed along here. Councilman Boyt: Did I understand it was 5 or 6 trees? Barbara Dacy: Right. Councilman Boyt: On the 3 foot high berm, does that mean that someone walking by or sitting in a car is going to be screened from the parking area on TH 2127 Barbara Dacy: That's correct. Councilman Boyt: Because of the lay of the land, that's high enough to be adquately screened. If I understand this correctly, the location you've chosen and the way you've landscaped it has screened it from sight from all practical purposes? It certainly is a needed service but it's a nice one to have screened. I noticed that the only person on the Planning Commission who seemed to be opposed to this was Tim Erhart who lives down in that area and I would expect him to be sensitive to these sorts of things. The only concern I have remaining, and I think this was also one of Tim's concerns, was the area that Clark I think also mentioned, that bridge that all of us who have driven through there know that is a problem. I think a way to solve that problem is to establish a right-out/left-in commitment. We wouldn't have to alter the roadway at all but just simply approve it with this condition. I would say even though other trucks go through, at least at this point we're not adding additional traffic. We can still give them access. Councilman Johnson: Left-out/right-in. Councilman Boyt: Okay, excuse me. Left-out/right-in. It's my understanding that the sprinklering of the building is State controlled so if the building goes over 3,000 square feet it has a sprinkler and if it's under, it doesn't. So I'm comfortable with that but I would ask that we consider the possibility of controlling the entrance and exit. Mayor Hamilton: Is there a possibility of having a right-in as Bill was saying? That was my thought too because simply so it would make traffic going up that hill easier to pass a truck turning into the site. If there was a right-in lane. Gary Warren: Turn lane? Cit Feb May it Gar May opp Act the rig Gar tad so~ Ma~ too Gar cal roa pro May don tut res hay lik sig bes to Cou May tha sto dir you hay to aga Gar goo Cou wid Gar als Council Meeting - ruary 8, 1988 - Page 17 9r Hamilton: Yes. Just a right-in lane into their driveway so that just makes the traffic flow more easily past that site. Warren: MnDot has the final say on that. ~r Hamilton: I think that's a good thing to do anytime w~ have an ~rtunity to put in right turn lanes in. It just helps traffic a lot. ~ally, even if there was enough right-of-way-in that stretch right re to put a left turn lane also so that traffic could go by on the ~t, I wouldn't be opposed to that either. Warren: I think you'll have 'a problem because of the sharp turn ius there where you can get into some reverse curve problems with ~body coming up and having to really crank hard on the right to get the other lane. 9r Hamilton: There's probably some drainage problems right 'there · Warren: We have solve the storm sewer all along there, what we the TH 101 drainage project, so we do have a collector down the so we can get the water into it so drainage wouldn't that big of a Dlem. Hamilton: Those were the only comments I had. I think they've a nice job in laying it out on the land and if we could get a right lane in there, I'd be satisfied. I'm not sure that we ought to trict your movement to the north. It's a 9 ton road and I think they the right to use it. I know the bridge is dangerous and I would to first, before we restricted them, to attempt to put like a stop either on the north side or the south side. Whichever would be so the traffic has to stop in one direction. Clearly one side has ~top and the other one has the right-of-way. ~cilman Boyt: A yield sign maybe. ~r Hamilton: Whatever would work there. It's a similar type bridge ~ you have in Eden Prairie by the golf course over there and they put ? signs on there so traffic only flows one direction. The other .=tion stops. That would work fine here except in the wintertime when ve got a day like today where it's icier than beck and you hate to somebody slide into the side of the bridge trying to stop or trying [et up the hill when it's icy and they stop and can't get going Warren: I think the advisory signs mentioned earlier would be a comment. Caution, trucks turning or something of that nature. ~cilman Horn: I think we ought to explore too the possibility of ~ning that spot once that railroad is abandoned. Warren: The Light Rail Transit Corridor may have an impact on that City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 18 Barbara Dacy: They could function at grade though. Patrick Blood: I have two things to say. I'm sure the City is well aware of the...if we put a right hand turn lane in there, it's fairly hollow down through the tree area there. It will make it pretty hard to put in a right hand lane to be in there. But to restrict us, and what you're worried about is traffic control under the bridge, in order to do this, first of all, we don't have that many trucks but if you gave us the right to go out like at 6:30, that would put us a half an hour before the rush hour and it would limit the traffic that way rather than going into a lot of expense. The earlier you can get up before the traffic, naturally, the safer it will be. That's a way of making it safer. Mayor Hamilton: I'm sure that Jay has a legitimate concern but I'm just. not convinced that there's a real traffic problem there at 7:00 in the morning. There are very few residents in that area either going north or south on TH 101. I don't think it's going to cause traffic congestion at 7:00 in the morning on that area of TH 101. Councilman Boyt: What about the evening when they come back? Mayor Hamilton: I just don't see that much traffic down there. I drive that quite a bit and I just don't see that much traffic. Councilman Johnson: That was brought up to a point by Pat Swenson who is a resident down that way that does drive that a lot. Mayor Hamilton: She lives on Lake Riley and it's a long ways from there. Nancy Lee: In reference to the evening, they are usually in before rush hour traffic because of when they start in the morning, when they come back in the afternoon, they will beat rush hour traffic. Mayor Hamilton: Usually you guys are done by 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon aren't you? Councilman Boyt: Your operation time is from 7:00 to 4:00 roughly? Patrick Blood: Right in that area with residential. Construction might last a little longer especially in the summer months. Councilman Boyt: You mentioned, I think it was at the Planning Commission, about returning for lunch. Patrick Blood: No, one of the staff had brought that up and the answer is no. Most of the drivers, once they're out, they're out for the day. They only come to pick up their truck and then they come in and they go home. They don't come in for lunch. On a rare occasion they might have to come in and pick up a route sheet or something like that but that's the extent of it. Feb Cou on abo May nev and had doe we hay Cou goi Cou to men out May tha Cou Tim con rec rot don has mat 198 yar Cou spe Cou bec It' Cou of und par I n Cou Bar Sore If Council Meeting ~uary 8, 1988 - Page 19 ~cilman Boyt: You're suggesting then Tom, you're comfortable based ~eing there, that this isn't a high traffic area and yet when we talk at Canterbury Downs season, this gets to be pretty busy. · )r Hamilton: Even then, I've made many trips to the track and I've ~r run into a problem until you get down to the stop light on TH 212 whatever the turn off road is there. I don't think I've ever even one car in front of me sitting at that intersection. There just 3n't seem to be that much traffic there. Maybe that will change as :ontinue to grow and we'll have to keep looking at it. I just ~n't run into a problem. ~cilman Boyt: When you have an oncoming car coming at you as you're ~g through that bridge, it's tight. ~cilman Horn: You have to stop. It's a one lane road. I would like ~ee the City Staff pursue a reasonable way of controlling tha, as you ~ioned. If it doesn't make sense to restrict their way in and way at least let's do that. Hamilton: I think even if this wasn't before us, we should do It's not a good spot. ~cilman Horn: I just wanted to respond to something Bill said about Erhart living in the area and opposing this. If I interpret Tim's :ern, it has nothing to do with this particular development. He has )nsidered his position on contractor's yards in general and would ~ against any contractor's yard that came before that group so I t think it has anything to do with his proximity to this project. It to do with his feeling about contractor's yards in general. As a ~er of fact, when this came to the Planning Commission on May 13, 7, they unanimously approved the request to include contractor's Is as a conditional use permit. ~cilman Boyt: In that zoning, business fringe area but not in that ~ific location. ~cilman Horn: Right. But as a concept and it isn't being refused luse of this specific location, as I read Tim's minutes this time. being refused because it's a contractor's yard. ~cilman Boyt: I agree that Tim's basic position appeared to be one ~eing against contractor's yards in Chanhassen. It was my ~rstanding that he made a few more specific comments about this ~icular location but I'm not basing my opinion on his. Simply that )riced he was the lone person opposed to it. lcilman Horn: Headla also. )ara Dacy: One of the Planning Commissioners is here this evening. ~ of you may not recognize him as Brian Batzli in the white sweater. rou wanted to ask him a question. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 20 Councilman Horn: I'll second the motion but I did have one question about number 6. Is 6 related to area also or is that required of any new? Barbara Dacy: That's required of any building. Mayor Hamilton: Condition 10, have we in the past had this surmountable concrete curb and gutters in these areas or have we had the removable barrier type things? I think we've had some of each and I just want to consistent as to what we're requiring here. This is certainly more expensive than if you have those block things that you put in place but I think we allowed them in the rural area. Barbara Dacy: Because the site is zoned commercial in the business fringe, the ordinance does require concrete curb. I'll yield to the City Engineer as to the type of concrete curb. Gary Warren: With trucks of this nature, barrier curb really is preferred just because surmountable curb is too easily violated with the larger trucks. Councilman Johnson: I think you just said the opposite. Number 10, doesn't this way we want the surmountable curb and you just said you want the other kind. So is 10 what the engineering staff wants? Gary Warren: I'll defer to Larry I guess. Larry Brown: The concrete curb should be barrier type curb. Specifically B-618 curb. Mayor Hamilton: And not the permanent surmountable. Larry Brown: That is the permanent barrier curb construction. Councilman Johnson: I'd like to modify number 24 list the Minnesota Department of Health for capping of the well rather than just have it listed as an appropriate agency. I just want to point out that capping a well is a very important detail. Some people just run over it with a bulldozer and forget about it and that leads to some significant ground water pollution. Mayor Hamilton: I think there are some specific requirements that they need to foll'ow for capping wells and whoever gives those approvals should be, I think rather as a 27th or 28th, Jayy I'd rather say that as a separate item. That those regulations are followed in capping all the wells. Mayor Hamilton: I had one additional question on the holding tank. Should there be a schedule maintained so we know when that should be pumped or how often it's pumped? I don't think we want to get into a situation where it's running over. That's going to cause some problems so when you've got a holding tank, I guess I'd feel more comfortable if Cit Feb the' and' get Gar ask ~ om, May. and at. Cou', the May goil mon' Cou rig'. Gar Cou Gar' Cou~ lan, sin, app' Cou~ Cou~ str' deb Bar] sin, i tel deb'. Cou~ lit' anI~ May, May, Use of Council Meeting .. uary 8, 1988 - Page 21 had some type of schedule or something so we can go and look at it say you haven't pumped this thing for 6 months. It ought to be ing full about now. Warren: Could that be incorporated in the pumper contract? We're lng to be supplied with a pumper contract and that just specifies frequency of pumping. r Hamilton: Something so if you wanted to go down there and look see if it's being taken care of, you would have something to look ~cilman Johnson: They're going to have to get some history before ~ need to know how often it's going to be done. r Hamilton: But I think we should have something to review what's g on and inspect it and saying pumping it every month or every 3 :hs, or whatever it might be. Anything else? ~cilman Boyt: Gary, daily clean-up is covered somewhere in here t? I didn't see it as a specific condition. ~ Warren: Daily clean-up? ~cilman Boyt: During construction. Warren: We don't have a development contract called for in here. ~cilman Boyt: Well, then let's add something that would be typical juage to the sort of thing we put in other development contracts s :e they're going to be doing a building. Does that meet with general :oval to add a point 29. ~cilman Horn: Put it where 5 was. ~cilman Boyt: Okay, put it where 5 is. Then on 18, existing lctures will be disposed of, I gather we're talking about any kind of is in the area as well so existing structures and debris. ara Dacy: The intent of the condition was for the barn and the le family home and the garage area. If you want to specify other s on the property, then you should add existing structures and is. ~cilman Boyt: That's what I'd like us to add. It would be very le more that would need to be cleaned up and they're going to do it ;ay. )r Hamilton: That's fine. )r Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to approve a Conditional Permit Request %87-18 to operate a contractor's yard located north md adjacent to TH 212 and east of and adjacent to TH 1~1 based on City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 22 the site plan stamped "Received December 29, 1987" and subject to the following conditions: 1. Hours of operation shall be from 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., Monday through Saturday only (work on Sundays and Holidays not permitted). 2. There shall be no outside speaker system. 3. Any light sources shall be shielded from adjacent public road right-of-ways. 4. A holding tank shall be installed to receive the waste water from the garage area. A copy of the pumper contract shall also be provided prior to issuance of a buliding permit. 5. Daily clean-up the building site debris. 6. The building must have a heat and smoke detector system with a central dispatch. 7. Lighted exit signs must be installed at all exits. 8. A plan for storage of flammable and/or combustible material must be submitted to the Public Safety Office for approval. 9. Emergency lighting must be installed. 10. The driveway and parking lot shall have a permanent barrier B-618 concrete curb and gutter. 11. The applicant shall submit a landscaping plan indicating installation of 20 six foot evergreen trees between the vehicular use areas and the public right-of-ways. 12. All spetic system sites shall be staked and roped off prior to the commencement of any construction. Any traffic over these sites will require reevaluation of the sites. 13. The applicant shall obtain an access permit from the Minnesota Department of Transportation and shall comply with all conditions of the permit. 14. The approach onto TH 101 shall be a maximum of 0.5% grade for a minimum distance of 50 feet. 15. Catch basins shall be provided at the low point of the driveway along the proper spillways in the parking lot. A revised plan shall be submitted for approval by the City Engineer. 16. Calculations verifying the preservation of the predeveloped runoff rate for the site and ponding calculations for a 100-year frequency storm event shall be provided to the City Engineer for approval. Cit Feb 17. 18. 19. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. Ail Council Meeting ruary 8~ 1988 - Page 23 Check dams (Type II Erosion Control) shall be placed at 10~ foot intervals along all drainage swales. Existing structures and debris shall be disposed of properly. If debris is to be burned, the applicant shall obtain a burning permit from the Department of Public Safety and the Pollution Control Agency. On-site burial of debris is prohibited. Additional erosion control shall be placed along the north side of the site. A revised plan shall be submitted for approval by the City Engineer. Ail erosion control measures shall be in place prior to the initiation of any grading and once in place shall remain in place throughout the duration of construction. The developer is required to make periodic reviews of the erosion control and make any necessary repairs promptly. All of the erosion control measures shall remain intact until an established vegetative cover has been produced at which time removal shall be the responsibility of the developer. Wood fiber blankets or equivalent shall be utilized to stabilize all disturbed slopes greater than 3:1. Seeding shall be disc-anchored and shall commence no later than two weeks after slopes have been established. Ail detention ponds and drainage swales shall be constructed and operational which includes all pertinent storm sewer systems to have the ponds functional prior to any other construction on the project. The applicant shall apply for an dobtain permits from the Watershed District, DNR and other appropriate regulatory agencies and comply with their conditions of approval. Any expansion of the building or parking areas or expansion beyond 12 vehicles shall require a conditional use permit review. The site plan shall be revised to shift the building 2~ feet to the east. Should the subject site be subdivided, the City would look to requiring the necessary right-of-way for a frontage road to make connections to the east. The applicant shall comply with all regulations set forth by the Minnesota Department of Health and any other appropriate agencies when capping the wells. voted in favor and motion carried. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 24 Mayor Hamilton: I was going to ask you a question Mr. Blood, don't you generally, the haulers, don't you normally, during the summertime or warmer hours, start earlier? Wouldn't it be more advantageous to you to start at an earlier time? Patrick Blood: It does help. The earlier you can get out there, residentially, our company specifies that nobody start at a residential house until 7:00 and construction wise, it would be nice if we could get out a little earlier to the construction sites but that's one of our stipulations. Mayor Hamilton: I know some haulers and they like to start early in the summer when it's really hot so they are finished before it's really cooking out there. Patrick Blood: I've been working this for 10 years and a lot of people don't like the garbage trucks coming by at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning. Councilman Horn: How long does it take you to get from your location to your first residence? What's the longest distance it takes you to get to your first stop in the morning? Nancy Lee: We're in different suburbs different days. We service Chanhassen so that would be close and then we do Bloomington and Edina. Patrick Blood: And Eden Prairie. Councilman Horn: The way this is written, if I interpret it right, is you can't start your operation until 7:00 a.m.. That would mean it would take you longer than to get to the first house. Patrick Blood: Our men actually start at 6:45 a.m.. They come in and warm up their trucks and pick up their routes or things like that and that gives them sufficient time. The only two areas that we fail to make real early is like Bloomington and Edina. Councilman Horn: So 7:00 is not a problem? Patrick Blood: It's no problem. Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to approve a Wetland Alteration Permit %87-14 to locate a contractor's yard within the watershed of a Class A wetland subject to the following conditions: 1. Compliance with the standards of Article V, Section 24 (a) (4). 2. Compliance with the conditions of approval of Conditional Use Permit Request %87-18. All voted in favor and motion carried. Councilman Boyt: Is there anyway we can control oil runoff from the trucks? Cit~ Feb Lar put in Cou~ par] Bar] Cou! arno ! just tha May. yar( goi tha the thel Council Meeting uary 8, 1988 - Page 215 iy Brown: One of the things we can do is getting a garage space and :ing in flammable trap in there, some sort of tank and leak in oils '.he stalls would in fact be washed down to that holding tank. ~cilman Boyt: Okay. They're going to be, as I understand it, lng these vehicles out in the parking lot? ara Dacy: Yes, some of them will be parked in the lot. ~cilman Boyt: And I would think there is going to be a certain ~nt of oil, grease and what not dripping off those vehicles. I'm wondering, is there any reasonable way to control that or do we run down into Bluff Creek? r Hamilton: Isn't part of that proposed, it's going to be in the and they are going to be washing off trucks and that's going to be g into the holding tank. That's my understanding on how most of will be. Most of it is going to be in the yard and as they wash trucks and clean up, that's going to run into their holding tank and that's going to be pumped out. Councilman Boyt: I'm just wondering. We have this in every parking lot but~this one happens to be within 200 feet of Bluff Creek so I'm wondering if there's anyway to control it off the parking lot. It's not jus~ their trucks. It's employee's vehicles. If it's impossible, it's imp~ssible but if there is some reasonable means. dri tha' runl Lar~ the lcilman Horn: Do you think there will be more there than the cars ing by on TH 1017 lcilman Boyt: I understand we need to be practical, I'm just asking question. Larry, are you aware of any way of controlling it ing off the parking lot? :y Brown: Off the parking lot, no. Not to my knowledge. icilman Johnson: Where will the water off the parking lot go? To holding basin? Lar~y Brown: To the Councilman Johnson: lea~ing the basin. Lar: sedimentation basin, yes. :y Brown: Something we can work out is, through the Watershed app so tha COU~ the dri' dri' :oval, they will be requiring some sort of skimmer on the pond outlet hat more or less would take care of a great percentage of the oil might occhr or happen into this sedimentation pond. ~cilman Johnson: One interesting thing I noticed when I went out e. I never noticed those buildings there. As many times as I've ten that, I'm so concentrating on that railroad underpass as you re up that hill. That big farm. That big red barn, until I went out In a submerged outlet that will prevent oils from City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 2~ there and stopped there yesterday, I have never noticed that huge red barn sitting there that you drive by. STRATFORD RIDGE SUBDIVISION, LOCATED AT 6830 MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF, RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY, ROBERT PIERCE: A. SUBDIVISION OF 9.04 ACRES INTO 15 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS. Be WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT TO CONSTRUCT A PUBLIC STREET WITHIN A CLASS B WETLAND AND FOR CONSTRUCTION WITHIN 200 FEET OF A CLASS B WETLAND. Ce VARIANCE TO THE RECREATIONAL BEACHLOT ORDINANCE FOR LOT DEPTH AND NUMBER OF BOAT SLIPS. D. CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A RECREATIONAL BEACHLOT. Jo Ann Olsen: The variance has been tabled until February 22nd so the Board of Adjustments can act on it. There was not a quorom for tonight. The first one is for a preliminary plat. It is 15 single family lots in the RSF district. The property will be serviced from, there is an existing private drive right now on the southern portion of the property which will be improved to a public street and will be served by a cul-de-sac. The applicant is also providing future access to the north with this cul-de-sac. All the lots have 15,000 square feet. The lots along Minnewashta Parkway are double frontage lots and therefore require an additional 10 feet to the lot depth requirement for additional landscaping. Since we are in the process of amending the lot depth from 150 to 125, by the time we go through the final plan, that will not be an issue. They are proposing to provide a drainage basin in approximatley this location. Currently it flows to the west and now it will be coming to the east. The Planning Commission did approve of the subdivision with all of staff's conditions. We are recommending approval of the subdivision's preliminary plat. Mayor Hamilton: Do the applicant's have any comments? Robert Pierce: Not at this time. Councilman Boyt: I gathered from the discussion at the Planning Commission, that all these lots would come in at 15,000 square feet or larger so if there seems to be some small discrepency one place or another in this, that it will be worked out. There's enough area. The other point I had was, I would think in a period in which we've got some uncertainity about how the trail along Minnewashta Parkway would be laid out, that it would be nice if we could have an easement on both sides until we get the trail located and then abandon whichever easement wasn't used. Councilman Johnson: It's a cliff. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page Councilman Boyt: Well, I know it's steep and I'm suggesting that both easements keep our options open. Whereas, as the subdivision goes, it seens to fall within our guidelines. Councilman Johnson: On ~the subdivision, I've talked with Larry Brown eazlier today on the height and the lack of erosion control for the construction that's going to be done on Outlet A. Larry, did you get a chance to look at that? Lazry Brown: Yes I did. Right now the applicant is seeking preliminary pl t approval. The matters of erosion control will be handled when they co] e in for approval of grading and erosion control and plans and specifications. Co ncilman Johnson: I just wanted to point out that where that's lo. ated, that's a miniature Lotus Lake. A very steep area that's going to be totally stripped. We want to keep a very close eye on that one. Ma,'or Hamilton: I was surprised to see that Charles Lawson changed his nan.e to Charles Lateen. I actually liked Option A better than Option B. It's hard to say how it's going to develop back there. If it connects up.with the Charles Anderson property, that will lay out nicely. I thtnk all of Mrs. Hallgren's concerns have been answered. She's going tolhave free access to her property on the easement that she's had for a nulber of years. Since there's going to be a lot more traffic on that ro~d, once it starts under construction, is the applicant going to do an~,thing to prevent that traffic from going back to the Hallgren pri~perty because I know they horses back ther~ and they probably don't li :e a lot of disturbance. Roi~ert Pierce: You mean plowing down their driveway? Malor Hamilton: Right. Robert Pierce: I can't see any real reason why they would have to go in thgre. It's pretty far removed. You mean the construction of the r°tdway?. Ga~y Warren: There will be a v stble tapered section into the driveway fr~m the regular city road section so there will be a definite visual impact to anyone who would want to continue on so it will look like a driveway and not a city street. Ma~or Hamilton: Okay, ,o once you get past the entrance into where yo~'re going to turn into the property, then the road will go. -. Ga~y Warren: It will neck down to the driveway section. And we will ha~e curb and gutter up to that point also. · Mal,or Hamilton: Other than that, I don't have any problems with the s~division. I think it looks nice. It lays out nicely. It will be nii:e subdivision. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page Councilman Horn: I was curious about the church property there. It looks like it's subdivided. Mayor Hamilton: I don't know where this plan came from but I know the church is there. Gary Warren: That's a concept plan we had just to see how this piece would fit in with the rest of that area. Councilman Horn moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to approve the Subdivision #87-32 as shown on the plat stamped "Received December 14, 1987" and subject to the following conditions: 1. The right-of-way south of Lots 7 through 10 shall be designated as an outlot. 2. Lots 1 -5, Block 2 shall provide an additional 10 feet of depth or an approved detailed landscaping plan providing screening from Minnewashta Parkway. 3. The existing building and debris shall be removed from the site upon approval of the appropriate permits. 4. Provision of a 20 foot trail easement on the west side of Minnewashta Parkway. 5. Type II erosion control, staked hay bales and snow fence, shall be placed along the south side of Lots 1, 9 and 10. 6. A typical detail for type II erosion control, staked hay bales and snow fence, shall be placed on the grading plan. 7. Wood fiber blankets or equivalent shall be used to stabilize all disturbed slopes greater than 3:1. 8. Ail streets and utilities shall be constructed in accordance to the City's standards for urban construction. 9. The watermain shall either be looped or increased to an eight inch diameter. No dead-end stubs shall be allowed. 10. Ail erosion control measures shall be in place prior to the commencement of any grading. 11. The applicant shall enter into a development agreement with the City and provide the necessary financial surities as a part of this agreement for completion of the improvements. 12. The applicant shall obtain and comply with all conditions of the Watershed District and DNR permit. Ci~ Council ~e~. uary 8~ Meeting 1988 - Page 13 14 15 Jo th] wet Cla thi the Th~ to Co[] May to i The proposed manhole 2 shall be lowered to it's minimum possible elevation such that service from the north of the easterly proposed cul-de-sac may be facilitated. · Drainage easements shall be adjusted to cover the entire ponding site should shifting of the pond be necessary. The curb radius as shown in Attachment ~3 shall be replaced by sa curb transition section as shown in Attachment ~4. voted in favor and motion carried. SAND ALTERATION PERMIT. %nh Olsen: Real briefly, the wetland is located approximately along s line and it's just a sloped hill where it goes into a larger land to the northwest. It acts mostly as a drainageway. It's a low ss B wetland. Again, the applicant is proposing a ponding area in s location. We are requiring that that ponding area be designed to Fish and Wildlife's standards so that it will also act a wetland. y will be filling in a portion of the wetland and will therefore have ilso receive a permit from the Corps of Engineers. The Planning ission recommended approval and staff is recommending approval. or Hamilton: When I walked back there this fall, there didn't seem be any different grasses or weeds in there than there were on most of rest of the property. There weren't any trees is all where there e some trees on the rest of the property. It's got to be such a marginal type wetland, it's hard to believe they even need a permit to do anything there. When you can see the deer had nested in there, sleep in there occasionaly but other than that, there wasn't anything there. There wasn't any water there. There was nothing there. Jo Ann Olsen: It was marginal. There was wetland vegetation, sparse. Ma~or Hamilton: You'd have to look awful hard to find it. So you're comfortable that what they're proposing is then satisfatory for the ar~a. The area to the north, actually from there, is that going to be altered because of this? It is low in that corner and it drains to the no~th. Doesn't it or where does it drain to? Jo So~ wet Ma] pro Gaz sh0 is Ann Olsen: The drainage will still flow from the rear of this lot. e of the water will be directed away from that wetland but that land basically receives from all directions. or Hamilton: It's not going to be directed towards the Hallgren's petty I hope. y Warren: It's not being altered in that area. The concept plan ws a drainage in a little better perspective as far as the whole area concerned. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page Councilman Boyt: Has it been determined that that wetland can't be saved? That we can't use that as a holding pond? Gary Warren: Which wetland? Councilman Boyt: The wetland that we're filling in. We can't use that as a holding pond? Jo Ann Olsen: The way that this was designed again was to bring the drainage to the east where it would enter into Lake Minnewashta. The only way for it to really act as a wetland would be to direct drainage back and forth to continue to direct it to the west. Councilman Boyt: What areas are leading to that being a Class B wetland at this time? Where does it drain from? Jo Ann Olsen: Right now it drains here but once they put in the street, it will be directing most of the drainage from here on, will be directed to Minnewashta Parkway. It could be used as a ponding area. No question about it. That's typically where we do locate the ponding areas. Councilman Boyt: So we're recontouring the land? I guess I didn't gather on here that it was very substantial. What kind of recontouring were you proposing? Jo Ann Olsen: I believe the street drains in the storm sewers. Councilman Boyt: Gary or Larry, can you tell me how deep the cut is running on this property? Larry Brown: At which point? Councilman Boyt: I'm kind of interested at the end there by the natural marsh. How much of that we're having to cut to change the flow. Jo Ann Olsen: It's being filled. Larry Brown: It's being filled at that point. Jo Ann Olsen: The existing slope is down. This is being filled. So the drainage, rather than naturally going like this, will be directed to the street which will take it this way. Larry Brown: Bill, if I could address one more of your concerns. When I attended the Planning Commission meeting I was asked the same question, about using this area as a ponding area. The elevation is quite a bit lower at that point than the rest Of the site so to the ultimate runoff point to Lake Minnewashta is how feasible to drain water to a ponding area, not worry about this site and have it go into Lake Minnewashta. The storm sewer systems and elevations just would not facilitate that. Mrs. Hallgren was quite concerned about directing any more drainage back towards her property and that's one of the prime Cilr Council Fe~.ruary 8~ Meeting 1988 - Page rea OVE Cou thi cur la~ Laz lit les Jo Cou Jo Cou fee sons the pond was proposed away from her property and on this corner r there. ncilman Boyt: Let me ask a question Larry. Maybe it will shorten ngs up a little bit here. What you're telling me is, if we kept the rent marsh as the ponding area, we'd be running water away from the ~ and it would basically have no place to go from there? Fy Brown: Correct me if I'm wrong Jo Ann, but this area has very tle runoff down to here. In the springtime it tends to need more or ~ a holding until a majority of it can evaporate off. ann Olsen: It doesn't even hold. It runs itself out of water. .~cilman Boyt: What runs into the other wetland? ann Olsen: Nothing. ~cilman Johnson: I was going to say Bill, the fill is going to be 8 = at that location. May~r Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to approve a Wetland Alteration Permit ~87-16 to permit the alteration of a Class B Wetland wit~ the following conditions: 1. 1The proposed sedimentation basin shall be designed to the following six criteria so that it will also be as a wetland area: a. The basin will have free form (no even-sided) shape to increase shoreline length and provide isolated areas for feeding and resting birds. b. The basin will have shallow embankments with slopes of 10:1 to 20:1 for at least 30% of the shoreline to encourage growth of emergent vegetation as refuge and food for wildlife. c. The basin will have uneven, rolling bottom contour for variable water depth to (a) provide foraging areas for species of wildlife feeding in shallow water (0.5 to 3.0 feet) and (b) encourage growth of emergent vegetation in areas of shallow water and thereby increase interspesion of open water with emergent vegetation. d. The basin will have a layer of topsoil (muck from an existing wetland being filled) on bottom of basin to provide a suitable substrate for aquatic vegetation. e. The basin will have water level control (culverts, riser pipe, etc.) to minimize disturbances of wildlife using the wetland. 'If. The basin Will have fringe of shurbs on upland surrounding the basin to minimize disturbances of wildlife using the wetland. City Council Meeting February 81 1988 - Page 2. The applicant must receive a permit from the Corps of Engineers. All voted in favor and motion carried. CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A RECREATIONAL BEACHLOT. Jo Ann Olsen: The applicant is requesting a conditional use permit for a recreational beachlot. The recreational beachlot will be located on Outlot A. A meets all the requirements for a recreational beachlot but does not have the depth required for a dock. The applicant is still requesting a conditional use permit conditioned upon receiving the variance for a dock and for the additional boat slips. Staff is recommending approval of the conditional use permit for the recreational beachlot with the conditions that they do provide us with a more detailed plan of what in fact will be located on the beachlot and with an erosion control and tree removal plan. The Planning Commission also recommended approval of the conditional use permit. Mayor Hamilton: I suspect we could handle (c) and (d) together when (c) comes back if you wanted or if nobody has a problem with it. It might give us an opportunity to discuss them both at the same time. I think probably since it's not something they need to have tonight, you wouldn't have a problem with that I suspect. I don't see that it's going to hold you up in anyway by not having your conditional use. Robert Pierce: I guess not in one sense but in the other sense, it kind of leaves of hanging on a ledge there because it's a real important part of the whole project. I don't know about procedures but I'm wondering if it's possible. I know it's a little backwards but we've had several delays that have been somewhat unforeseen and nothing I guess that we could do about it. To go ahead and proceed with these and make a conditional on the Board of Adjustments granting the variance. Is that possible or am I out of line? Mayor Hamilton: No, I guess if the Board of Adjustments approves it, it's approved unless a councilmember wants to discuss it further, if I remember correctly. I guess I'd like to ask the council what their pleasure is? Councilman Johnson: I was intending on trying to table this one because I thought that asking for this information after we approve a permit is like closing the gate after the horses have left. I want to see more details about what's going to go on there. How deep is the sand? How many trees...I'm not ready to approve the conditional use permit as is. I want to see more detail. I'd like to see the whole thing moved up north were they have more room. Mayor Hamilton: Are you making a motion then? Councilman Johnson: You asked us just for an opinion. I was telling you what I was planning on doing. Ci..~ Council Meeting February 8~ 1988 - Page 55 May coo The sho the pro pro and sho thi Ro~ not ha~. Cit-: and ha~ I'd tr] rut. be~ Cot ba~ or Hamilton: I was hoping maybe you were going to make a motion. ncilman Johnson: I will and I was telling you some of the reasons I'll make this motion. I don't like where the walkway is. He wants ~ feedback so I'm giving him some feedback too. There's a natural il already running down there. I see no reason to cut another trail. re's a trail that's leading to the old dock. That's where his trail uld be. There's no use in cutting out and making more disturbance of soils in a very sensitive area so until some of these types of blems. We get the increased detail that staff wants. The tree gram. This time of year there's also a tough problem, you go there look at it and try to visualize because you can't tell where the reline is. That's not the applicant's problem but I'd like to table s until the applicant brings in... err Pierce: Might I suggest though, the fact that the beach area is something, we're willing to move and try to work with the City as we e done and try to address most the problems but what I need from the y is not to get pushed off, come back and say maybe I'll move this again. What I'd really like to see is some action. Maybe if you e some suggestions, to run that through your planning department. be more than happy to sit down and talk to them. More than happy to and alleviate the problems. We want to do a nice job but we're ning out of time too. We need to continue on from our aspect. We've n pushed off for months now. ncilman Horn: Can I ask a question of the attorney? Do we have any is to deny the conditional use permit without variances? Ro~er Knutson: I'm not sure what you mean by without variances. Co! COl Ro9 ncilman Horn: We're not allowing any variances by approving the ditional use permit. er Knutson: That's correct. Collncilman Horn: They're asking for variances for other portions of the be~chlot.. Ro~er Knutson: You could theoretically allow the conditional use permit without variances. CoUncilman Horn: That's the only way I would allow it this evening. That would be final. You wouldn't have variances. Otherwise, if we treat them together, then you can go for it but I'm not really prone to va~iances on beachlots anyway. / Robert Pierce: So what are you saying? I guess, before I leave here, if]you're going to table (c) and (d), give me some guidance of what you wa~t me to come back. Ma~or Hamilton: (c) is going to be tabled automatically because it has no~ gone before the Board of Adjustments and Appeals so I don't really / I City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page think it's appropriate for us to comment on that at this time. The conditional use permit, I guess I'd like to consider them both together but if you want some comments, Jay has given his and perhaps Bill you could give comments. Councilman Boyt: Okay. I noticed Jay's not done. Councilman Johnson: I'd say mostly cut off. Councilman Boyt: Well Jay, I suspect you'll get another chance here and I'll be real quick and you can have my time. I'm against (c) and I'm against (c) because you don't have one of the three basic things we say you need. I'm not going to corrupt our ordinance by voting to give a variance to it. That's all I need to say. I'm okay with (d) but not with (c). Councilman Horn: That's my sentiment exactly. Councilman Johnson: I believe that without the variances, in other words, I didn't see the dock, the conditional use permit, we have no choice but to approve it. But, we do have the choice to ask for additional details on grading, tree removal, etc. and that's why I want to see those before I approve it rather than putting the staff into the position of having to negotiate in our name. I'd rather be letting them negotiate and then let us approve it. I do believe you will get the conditional use permit for a recreational beachlot and I too am against the dock. Robert Pierce: Are you aware that at the present time you would have to have a variance to have a single family home on 9 acres with 500 feet of lakeshore to have one dock. The way it's set up right now, you can't even have one dock on a single family home and 550 feet of lakeshore. Mayor Hamiltonn: That's not the issue. I'm in favor of both of them. I see no reason why they shouldn't be passed. If anybody's familiar with the outlot, it's a large outlot. It's a nice piece of property and can accomodate everything that the applicant is asking for without any undue effects or bad effects to the property itself or to the lake surface or to the lake water quality or anything else. I think it's a good use of the land. It's a nice piece of property and I think if you do it properly, you're going to have a very nice outlot and allowing 4 boats on there is certainly not going to cause any problem to the lake or to the shoreline or to anything else. I'm in favor of both. Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Boyt seconded to table the Conditional Use Permit for a recreational beachlot until the detailed information, i.e. tree removal plan, etc. that the staff has asked for, is brought in. All voted in favor except Mayor Hamilton who opposed and motion carried. Ci Counci. 1 Meet .lng February 8, 1988 - Page 5'5 ZO~ VII AG~ Ma~ pr ju~i for gra~ sod coil woe th~ the ho~ an; thl ING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND ARTICLE V, SECTION 3, TO PERMIT EO GOLD AND INDOOR GOLF COURSE AS CONDITIONAL USES IN THE A-2, ICULTURAL ESTATE DISTRICT, JOHN PRYZMUS. or Hamilton: Does the Council need any further staff report on this m? We've seen it several times. Does the applicant have any ments you wish to make? John, do you have anything you want to sent to us? n Pryzmus: If we could just go over the location a little bit and t run through a couple things. The site here that we're looking at, wn this property right here, is zoned Agricultural Estate and just some of the council people that don't know some of my neighbors, Ted s this which is a contractor's yard to the north of me. There's a up home to the west of me. Another contractor's yard to the thwest of me. Another contractor's yard, whatever they're doing on dirt farm right to the south of me and Larry VanDeVeire owns this ce of property which he says he won't sell until it's zoned mercial and then the Hennessey's to the southeast. I don't know for e what, they have the residence there but I guess they also do dworking out of their garage. So basically all my neighbors are i-commercial. If you have any questions about that. The highways t run to the south, TH 5 which is 2~,~ some cars drive by there and n Galpin Blvd. comes from the south and the north and I don't know many cars, I didn't get that count so we're talking about a piece of perry that's in the agricultural estate area but yet it's not really ~state type use for that property. If you want to talk about that a tle bit, if I can answer any questions or anything you have as far as t goes. Major Hamilton: Does anyone have anything to ask John? John Pryzmus: As far as the community support, I have, I think in your paoket some time ago I gave you a list of all the people that signed petitions from the community that want a recreational sight out there. he~ bel mar fat ne fe~ Ch~ Th~ ota letter from Gary Gaetti, that's a neighbor over here, that whole rtedly endorses indoor practice facilities for John Pryzmus is empting to construct. We visited the site and feel it would be eficial to the community. He says that our neighborhood, with as y children of Little League age that would use an entertainment ility such as this, including my own children and those of my ghbors. I do not profess to be a councilman or politician however I .1 a facility such as this would be in the best interest of the nhassen community as well as the ...Thank you for your consideration. s endorsement, this is Gary Gaetti. Ma~or Hamilton: Is the one building that you're planning on putting up wh~re you said you had video golf in there. Jo~n Pryzmus: And batting cages. Ma~or Hamilton: That's what I was wondering. It didn't say that the on apllication~ but you would have, it would be softball batting cages? City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page ~6 John Pryzmus: On the original application the building... Mayor Hamilton: That didn't appear in our report Barb. I know I heard that before, I'm just wondering why that wasn't listed. Barbara Dacy: One of the attachments is the application, Attachment 913. Councilman Horn: But it doesn't say that at the title. Councilman Johnson: It doesn't list them in the application either. Councilman Horn: It just says indoor golf driving and video golf as a conditional use. Mayor Hamilton: I know the last time John was here he had said he intended to have batting in there also and that was one the major things he wanted to do in there. I remember in talking about that. Councilman Horn: I thought that was the only thing at that time. That's why when I read this. Barbara Dacy: If I can clarify. Attachment 913 was the first application in 1987. Attachment 915 was the most recent one and that's where I got the indoor golf driving and the video golf. The indoor batting was not on the most recent application. Mayor Hamilton: Can you show us on there, point to where what things would be happening John and perhaps give us the dimension of the building. John Pryzmus: The building itself, in the way the whole landscaping is already agreed on by the City with the berming. All the trees for the whole site, including the building here. We did all the berming. All the trees except the evergreens which we're going to plant this fall and I'll have these throughout the whole thing. But the indoor batting activity building is situated right here on the site which is on the northeast corner. The building, all it is, the building itself is completely open. All you have is nets. You have a pitching machine down here and all you have is nets. The whole building is just one big open expanse except for garage where they are storing the equipment. I wanted to get into the building itself a little later on. Some of the community support that I have, getting back to the petitions that we had signed and some of the jobs we were creating. We've got one of the neighbors up there, Mr. Hayes is going to work there. Mr. Winchell. Two retired people. We have the kids coming home from college and the high school kids with summer jobs and jobs on weekends. I think, 100% of the business community and everybody I ask, as far as the neighborhoods, anybody that understood it, so I got about 90% of the people that are in favor of the project. If anybody wants to say anything. Do you want to hear from them? Mayor Hamilton: I know they're here in support of you John and it's not Cit Feb a p' haw acc~ Chu, the I'm It' tem cha" str' pro shal prol co~ I ~m~ ind' of the wit rev inc'. sup som sup'. nei, Johl bui. bou, The It' a t theI bui. sid~ feet wit] for coq for May, eve', Bar ran yet val in Council Meeting - =uary 8, 1988 - Page lblic hearing. Perhaps if there was one person that you wanted to be a spokesperson to just give us some comments, that would be ptable. ;k Dimler: I'm a neighbor and I'm familiar with John's area out :e because I hear you have some concern about the building and I know a little familiar with the landscape and I know John has berms. a pretty straight forward structure that's going to be put up .orarily and can be taken down temporarily, if the temporary use ever iged. I think that would lend itself more than a lot of permanent lctures that might be a home or such other type of facility. I think ,ou're aware of some of the other properties out there, even the ferry that John is building his project on, it's in pretty rough )e right now and I'm hoping it's going to be a much more useful ect when John has his facility on it and it's useful for us in the ~unity. Particularly for our children and ourselves for recreation. a little familiar with the demand for recreation. That's a big stry anyway and we could use it in Chanhassen. I know there's a lot upport right now for the community center. We've heard a lot about demand for those activities. A lot of these activities come forward a lot of public support. You're looking for, if not industrial hue bonds, you're looking for housing and redevelopment and tax :ement districts. As far as I know, John's project is really self )orting. It's a free enterprise project and that encourages me and of the people that I've spoken to. I would summarize, just general orr for it and I think it would be an improvement to the hborhood that it's in right now. Pryzmus: If you want to discuss a little bit more about the ding. It's a low profile buffer building and like Chuck said, I ht it. It used to be a truck terminal in St. Paul in Roseville. man I bought it from, him and two other guys took it down in a week. like taking an erector set apart. Take it down, like I say, it was uck terminal so it had all garage walls. Now, with the City of , I'm going to put cedar siding on it so it would be all bolted to steel so at some point, if I sell the property, I could take the Lding down and move it to some other site. There are 12 foot ~walls and it's very low profile. Like I say, it only goes up to 18 · It sits in completely bermed from the CR 117. It will fit in all the ordinances as far as that area. We meet all the criteria building in that area. Other than indoor, Jay I think you had lented earlier to the staff, what's inside? It's just nets except where the garage is to put equipment in. )r Hamilton: Barbara, has John met all the permit requirements and :ything? He's paid his fees. )ara Dacy: Yes, for the clubhouse and miniature golf and the driving 'e. He has not been able to complete the bituminous parking area obviously, but we have retained a letter of credit from him that is d through, I believe it's June 15th so at this point in time he is :ompliance. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page Mayor Hamilton: At this time I would just like to appeal to the Council to consider this project on it's merits. We've certainly had difficulty dealing with John in the past and sometimes he didn't follow the rules but I know that John's heart is in the right place and he's trying to do a good thing for the community. I think this would be a good facility for the community. For everyone in the community to use. Adults and youngsters alike. So, the building, the indoor batting and indoor golf, the outdoor putting, they are all assets to the community and they are things that make the town a town. It's a recreational facility. It's for everyone to use and it just attracts more people to our community. I hope that everybody considers this on the merits of the project and not on the applicant which, sometimes we have a problem doing. With that, are there any other questions that anyone would like to ask of John? John Pryzmus: I was just going to read the letter that I got from the Lt. Governor. This project is being financed by the SBA so I got a letter and it says, please accept my congratulations on having received a Small Business Administration loan. As a former small business owner I know the importance of a SBA loan. Countless jobs have been created as a result of the SBA in fostering the development of small business. As Lt. Governor, one of my top priorities has been to work to create an environment where entrepreneurship is encouraged. If I can be of any assistance to you, please feel free to contact my office. Once again, congratulations and best wishes in your future endeavors. And if the whole financial feasibility of the project hinges on this loan and I don't get the loan without the building. Councilman Horn: I'll second for discussion purposes. The purpose that we set up for this type of use was for uses that would provide an interim basis but they were for uses that couldn't be put in a commercial area. I think what we're asking for here are extensions to that in uses that can be put into a commercial area. My feeling on this position is that the only exceptions we make in an agricultural area are to the land intensive types of uses. Hence, we allowed the driving range and I think we stretched it somewhat for a putting course but I don't see these as other uses that require land intensive area and that's my criteria for this piece of property. It has nothing to do with the applicant or anything else. It's strictly to do with what the intent was of creating this type of a district. Councilman Boyt: As I look at this, I jotted down probably four reasons I thought it was a good idea. One of them is, it increases our tax base. The last one about the building being required to get the loan ties that into a package. Willingness to berm. The temporary nature of the building. Making good progress on what he's recently undertaken. I've got two areas that stand out as sort of opposed to these positive points. One of them Clark just mentioned so I won't go over that one again. The other one is, being new to the Council I've got'to reflect back on the history that was provided in the staff notes and note things are looking reasonably good as of 1987. Prior to 1987 it seems as though there was sort of a rocky relationship with the City. I'd like tit Ee~ to der nee it' all lit . Coui hay yea an~ coil pr~ not col: a f int~ rig] use: The- beci . bui~ bat~ we ~ wha fire inf. tha' hay are- rig! dri saw The May~ hay. any use- to May~ Council Meeting ruary 8, 1988 - Page 39 see Mr. Pryzmus develop his land as we've already approved it to be eloped. I think that's an addition to'the community that we've led. We changed our zoning ordinance to give it to you and I think s only a matter of time until that section of property probably 9ws you to do what you want to do but at this point, I'd say it's a tle early. I would rather see us rezone that section than change the zoning to include this type of business. ~cilman Johnson: I have to agree with most of what Bill and Clark ~ said except I'm not totally sure that 1987 has been that great of a r. We had a building show up all of a sudden. Get laid out without berming. Became an eyesore to the community and all of a sudden ~ just laying there. Never asked for a conditional use permit for a ~truction yard to do that. I think that City contines to have Olems. I agree that this should not be in the A-2 district and I'm sure that this property should be in the A-2. Something closer or ilar to the business fringe down on the south side. This highway =idor, in my opinion, A-2 is not quite, I guess I've made this known ~w times and our consultants looked at future uses but what's that ~rim use between now and then? That is something to wrestle with but 3t now it is A-2 and I totally agree. This is not a land intensive The driving range was land intensive. That makes sense to me. mini-putt area, as an accessory use for driving range makes sense ~use the two are compatible with each other. Then putting up the [ding as a further extension there and then all of a sudden adding ~ing back, we don't have batting in front of us. This is the first ;e heard of batting. The application doesn't list batting. I think ~ we've got here is somebody has bought a building and he wants to ] a use for it. I've been talking about maybe putting up an [atable structure that's not so permanent or stuff like this but even = may be. I know I've seen those at Braemar for golf driving so you ~ indoor golf driving but I don't think the batting cages and stuff appropriate. We've denied that before. Ail of a sudden this is ~t back to what we denied earlier last year. There's no change. The [].cation is slightly different but I don't even know where the indoor Ting range part of that is. It's all batting cages. That's what we last year. I think we're looking at mirrors here. I'm not for it. A-2 is just the wrong place. )r Hamilton: My comments still stand. I think it's a good thing to .~ in the community and I certainly don't see how it's going to hurt :hing being in the area where it's at. Perhaps it would be a better to rezone the property. However, that's now what we've been asked ]o. I'm still in favor of this. Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to approve the Zoning OrdSnance Amendment to amend Article V, Section 3 to include Video Golf, IndOor Golf and Indoor Batting as a conditional use in the A-2, Agricultural Estates District. Mayor Hamilton voted in favor and Councilman Horn, Councilman Boyt and Councilman Johnson voted in opptsition. The motion failed with a vote of 1 to 3. ! City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 40 Mayor Hamilton: I guess all I can say John is, based on what I'm hearing this evening, there might be some sentiment for rezoning the property to something other than A-2. You may want to talk to Barb about the possibility of doing that. Councilman Horn: I would disagree with Jay on business fringe though. Councilman Johnson: Similar to business fringe. Business fringe is specific down to that area but I see a similarity between the two areas that it's an agricultural area yet it's on a major highway. I don't see that this is going to eventually become housing. This is eventually, probably this particular area is eventually going to be commercial. Councilman Boyt: What would you propose Clark? Councilman Horn: I'm not sure what would be appropriate but as I see the areas that we're looking at, that they would be lower traffic generators. When you put them right next to a major road, in a business fringe that at least was the intent. It would be for very low traffic generators. Councilman Johnson: This particular proposal is not going to generate much traffic. The mini-putt is going to generate a lot more traffic than the indoor batting cages or the indoor driving range. How many people can put in there at once? Mayor Hamilton: Even at that, it's a low traffic generator all the way around. If you have everything there. The golf and batting building, it's a low generator of traffic. There just aren't going to be hundreds of people out there. You're going to have some cars, of course. Councilman Johnson: I'm kind of opposed, the whole concept of taking this, this is something that you could put the building in and be a part of another facility that's indoors. We had something like this in Omaha that I've gone to that's totally indoors in a very retail area. Very high buck area. Mayor Hamilton: John's purpose of doing this was to make it a temporary use of the land so as that area develops he would be able to, as he did with his driving range down on West 79th Street. He had it there until the land was going to be developed and then he moved out further west. I suspect he would probably want to do the same thing here. Move it to a different location once the property is proposed to be developed into something else. John Pryzmus: The whole idea of the building, when you look at the driving range and the miniature golf, that's when it's nice outside. That's for about a 3 to 4 month period of the year. The indoor range, made it financially feasible to make a class operation. Make it a good recreational facility. By you denying this, I lose it all and there's no reason for you to deny it because it didn't generate more traffic. when it's nice outside, they're playing outside, when it's bad outside, they're inside but you only have maybe 30 people inside. You've got Cit~ Council Meeting February 8, 1988 L Page 4! par. dra Tha fea. i Coui beci May~ pro and Cou a h Johi mill purl doll coui ting for about 75 cars. It absolutely doesn't expand the site to ~ in more traffic. It expands the days of operation is what it does. -'s why I lose the financing because it don't make it financially 3ible. ~cilman Boyt: John, are you saying you can't run the golf course now ~use you don't have the building? )r Hamilton: Right. His financing was based on having the entire ect, the driving range, the miniature putt and the indoor batting golfing facility. ~cilman Horn: Why would it be unfeasible there when it's feasible on gher buck area that we had downtown? Pryzmus: I lost money every year and I didn't put a quarter of a [ion dollars into that project. I bought the land solely for the ~ose of reselling it. There I'm putting in a quarter of a million Jars to run this operation for 10 years. ~cilman Johnson: I can't see that there's going to be enough revenue generation from this building that you own, by putting this building up, that's going to increase your revenue enough to do that. Sell the building. MaWr Hamilton: Apparently the lenders felt that it would and they're thelones that have to make that decision I guess' Councilman Boyt: How long is your application open for the SBA loan? [ Joh~ Pryzmus: March 5th is my deadline. They've approved it, the bank has1 approved it. If I don't use the funds by March 5th. ~[~ ~c~ s~-M~--Y~~~m~°~ I encourage you to meet with Barbara as soon as least consider rezoning it. I think what I'm hearing is it might be something they might consider. Coul~cilman Johnson: It isn't going to happen by March. 5th. Maynr Hamilton: Perhaps John can get an extension if he knows, if he can go to his lender and say it's underway and in the process, if that is I:o occur, it may give you some extended money. I guess that's so~thing you'll have to talk to your lender about and see if they'll go along with. Councilman Boyt: I have no sense about how other council people are going to vote on this but to me it seems like somewhere in here there's proi~ably a common ground but there are a lot of issues around this thil~g. Clearly, look at the size of the packet related to this one iteu. We're halfway down the road. I guess the question is, how far do we ~o down before we get off. Tonight I hear us saying we got off. May ~r Hamilton: Just to respond to that, I guess how far down the road City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page do we go. I guess I'll drive to the end of the road with John anytime. However far I have to go with him or any other resident if it means the future of a business in the community or a future loss to an applicant or resident, I'm willing to work with them and see if we can't work it out. We do have a packet of information on it because it's been going on for a couple of years but hopefully, as we've gone along we've gotten things straighten out that have caused the problem and I still feel that if I can help John, if we can somehow resolve this issue and get it past, I think it's a good facility for the community. Not because it's John, because I think it's a good thing for the town. I think it will be a really good facility. Councilman Boyt: Maybe we need to find a location where we can put it. We've got the Planning Commission unanimously recommending to deny it. We've got the staff recommending to deny it. Mayor Hamilton: John knows what his choices are I guess. If I can help, I'd be glad to do it. UPDATE ON DOWNTOWN REDEVELOPMENT, GARY EHRET, BRW. Don Ashworth: Both Gary Ehret and Jim Lasher have been invited this evening and we have not had an opportunity really to discuss what has occurred this past summer and what's proposed for this next year. I asked both Gary and Jim to attend tonight's meeting to give us an update on what it is that has occurred and what we will be doing. Gary Ehret: Don was maybe a little briefer than I might be in why we're here tonight. We worked with you now for a year and a half, almost two years on the downtown project. We've accomplished an awful lot. There's a lot more to go and we're coming up to the next construction season. We felt it was very appropriate to discuss what we've accomplished to date and what we have left to do. We're also aware of some of the concerns and problems that have come up that we'd also like to address and take you through. We'd also like to present some ideas that we've been working with staff on for your consideration. What I'd like to do is just briefly outline our agenda. The first item I'd like to talk about is just where we are on the construction of the project. The second is update on some of the problem areas on TH 101. We'd like to talk a little bit about Heritage Park and then make some presentations of some schematic drawings that we've brought with us tonight. What I'd like to do, if I can, is cover each of the items. The construction update. Talk a little about TH 101 and ask for any questions you might have after each section just so we can move quickly through. This illustrates the street program in the downtown area. The burnt orange represents all of the street work that I can find as essentially done. By that I mean that curb and gutter is in. All of the base course bituminous is in. The utilities are completely done in these areas. All of the burnt orange area has yet to have the final wear course. We have yet to do any of the landscaping elements. Also, there are some private NSP, Northwestern Bell and Minnegasco work. Some that does have to take place but in general, the majority of the very City Council Meeting Fefruary 8, 1988 - Page .43 di ficult work, the very difficult of the project is basically complete. Th~ tan are'as are the segments that we have yet to either start or co[]plete. Getting you orientated, West 78th Street, TH 1~1. Moving around this is Market Blvd.. We have the entry drive, this is the bo~ling center yet to complete. We have work into the City Hall area yet to complete. Laredo Drive, Great Plains Blvd. We have curb and gutter, the bituminous and the landscaping beyond the Pony/Pauly/Pryzmus facilities and we have some edge treatment to complete along the Dinner Theater, Furniture Gallery, etc.. But as a whole, on the street improvements, I think we accomplished about 8~% to 9~% of what we had ho~ed to have done last fall. These I think can be better highlighted. Basically the utility work in the downtown area is in a condition very si[]ilar to the roadways. Sewer and water we have left to complete on Lazedo Drive and water on Great Plains Blvd.. That is it. All of the ot~er sewer and water facilities in the downtown area are complete. Storm sewer again, the burnt orange represents what has been completed. Th~ tan is what is remaining to be done. Essentially, we have to complete the storm sewer on Great Plains Blvd.. Complete the storm sexier on Laredo Drive and the storm sewer work is complete. The next itE~m I just wanted to talk about briefly is the work schedule. If there are specifics of any areas that you want to talk about what is done or what is not done, feel free to ask me but what we're shooting for is a schedule which would have a start up again, in those areas where work re~ains, Laredo Drive, Great Plains and I believe the public parking facility here will probably be the areas we focus on first. Pazticularly Great Plains and Laredo because of the need to finish the utilities and because of the use that occurs on the Pony/Pauly's public lot. We'll try to get that blacktopped right away. We'll then move in~o the finishing of this area, the bowling center drive and all of the landscaping elements. The schedule we've got set up right now is somewhat dependent on the weather but we're hoping that we can get back at it, get things underway, roughly the first of April. The date that is :currently scheduled for completion of the work is June 1st. We have about two months of work in the spring. The June 1st date, I caution a little bit. We're not sure how closely we're going to hit that. We're going to try very hard. We have a meeting set up with the contractor, Schaefer, and all of their subcontractor's at BRW's offices next Wednesday with the sole intent of talking about schedule. How we're going to phase in the rest of the work and how we're going to complete it~as quickly as possible in the spring. I want to just mention to you tonight that we're trying to finalize the cost to date. I do not have th~m yet. We've gone through all of the partial payment quantities. We'~re working on any change order items that may have occurred. We have andther meeting. We've had two meetings with the contractor. We have a third scheduled to discuss things further and what I'm hoping is that on February 22nd, two weeks from tonight, I can be back and give you a complete update on the cost estimate and where we stand on the job so fa~. I think with that I'll just ask if there are any questions on what is or is not completed. The schedule. Any comments. Anything you mi ht have relative to the work that has taken place or the work that has yet to be done. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page Councilman Johnson: I have some concerns and several of our citizens have talked to me and a lot of the Fire Department has some real concerns. I guess we still have work to be done on the Laredo intersection as far as making the right hand turn and we're going to have the island extended to the west which will affect the left hand off of Laredo going east. That's our main firetruck route. Currently they have a hard time making the right hand turn there and I want to make sure that the extension of the island and the new improvements will definitely allow for that right hand turn and we don't want to have to stop the firetruck, back up and try again because seconds count. Gary Ehret: The concern you're expressing is the movement as they come out of the Fire Station and wants to make this right hand turn or the left hand turn, either way. The primary is the right hand. Councilman Johnson: Right now they're having problems on the right hand turn with our present vehicles and we are looking to get larger vehicles. In the referendum later this month we're looking at an aerial platform truck that's 10 or 15 feet longer than our present vehicles. I wanted to be sure that we don't waste precious seconds maneuvering that corner. The other corner that I have a very large concern on, and hopefully we can borrow the aerial platform truck from Eden Prairie or something and come test it, is taking a left turn here. Making that left turn. Especially with the way some of the people are currently utilizing that intersection where sometimes you have more than one car. You get too many cars in the one lane and you just can't make the turn even. Whether after the changes are made there, I want to be sure that we can take that platform truck, the aerial platform truck, and make that left hand turn so assuming the referendum passes, because I would hate to have to see them go out to TH 5, over and back and around. That wastes way too much time if we're heading to a fire up TH 101. Gary Ehret: Unquestionably, a very good concern. Let me just take them one at a time. On Laredo Drive, the current radius on that street are a little hard to find simply because there is no curb and gutter but I think as they are currently built, essentially they are about 15 foot radius. I agree with you, it's going to be very difficult for the firetruck to make. I'm going to have to check, unless it happens to be on here, but I believe these are designed for 25 or 30 foot radius' and I don't know right off the top of my head but I do know that what we tried to do on all of this was use curbs and radius' that would accomodate up to a semi. Now there are tight spots, unquestionably, movements that you're not going to take at very high speed and with ~ firetruck, again, seconds count but I think it's a very valid point. Before we finish the construction of this area, extend this road and put in the radius', I will go back and attempt to make sure that those accomodate either directional movements of the firetruck. Councilman Johnson: It would be nice for them to know how far, if we could go set a stake where that island's going to come. You could go stand there, by the way and he could come driving by and see how close he gets to you. tit Feb Gar be. wor The mo~ Col wha Gar do bec hi~ To of you rea Cou Gar WOl.1 to[ tho get th~ 12o1: th~ if th~ that and th~ wo Council Meeting ruary 8, 1988 - Page Ehret: We can go out and mark these noses as they are supposed to .-onstructed on the pavement before we build them and I would happily with Mr. Chaffee and the fire crews to make sure that they do work. second intersection, what I'd ask is if I could defer that for a :nt because that is a second part of what I want to talk about. lcilman Boyt: Are you going to be finished by June lst? Is that t I heard? y Ehret: That's currently the way the contract states. However, we have to sit down with the contractor and negotiate on that date some ause we put some very difficult restrictions on him which did cause some specific delays in constructing part of this project last year. be quite honest, it took us out of a legal position, in my opinion, being able to say, this is a firm date. If we went to him and said, have no choice but to be done by June 1, I think he could make a sonable case that says no way. ncilman Boyt: When we are completed, is the landscaping in? ¥ Ehret: We hope, definitely, all the landscaping will be in and pleted this spring. I hope everything is done by June 1 but I'm just tioning the Council is that when I think of, is it going to go on, I Id hope that I could safety say by July 1 there will be nothing left do. I'm just not sure if the June 1 date is realistic (a) because of e of the work that we did not get done last fall, and (b) because of unpredictability of the weather and I don't know when we're going to started. Let me just finishe with the statement that it is our goal t all of the plant materials are in this spring rather than carry it r to the fall. The second area I want to talk about is what ncilman Johnson referred to and that's specifically the West 78th eet/TH 101 intersection and also I have a board a little bit later t also talked about the continuation of West 78th Street. Correct me I'm wrong but I have now talked with staff, I've talked with the HRA, y had several comments. We've talked to MnDot. We're aware of the blems that are occurring in this intersection. To kind of refresh Council briefly, from TH 5, up and around, through this intersection out on West 78th Street is TH 101 and is in MnDot jurisdiction. t I've attempted to do is over the last couple of months, meet out re with MnDot. I've sent correspondence to them and I've tried to k with them on identifying some of the problems that we have ex~.erienced. Some of the questions that have come up. Try to come up wi~h some alternative solutions identifying exactly what their position is on the issue. What this board is attempting to represent is what my un~ HR/ the la fol re] mo~ pe erstanding both from what I've observed myself and have received from members or staff, as the problems that you've seen occurring out ~re. Number one is the fellow moving westbound and tucks into the .e directly adjacent to the island and all of a sudden there's no lane the person coming to the east. The second I think is fairly ated. Either the person westbound is really encroaching on the 'ement to the south or he is in that lane and all of a sudden, the son moving east has nowhere to go or is trying to cut the corner and City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 46 was told that a few people have observed a guy who goes all the way around and I can believe that would occur if a person were parked in this lane, the driver is going to make that turn and he becomes very confused and what do I do, what do I do. I don't think this is as much of a concern but I have had somebody mention to me the rolling stops occurring here. ' Councilman Horn: That's all over town. Gary Ehret: What I have done, hopefully the information was in your packet. It may not have been too clear because you didn't have a diagram to work off of but if you recall, the information and response from MnDot, it was referring to these items here. I'll try to kind of take you through them briefly. This picture, what I just wanted to represent with this picture, the intersection as originally designed by ourselves, was a lot more compact and tighter. The area in the red represents expansion that was made by MnDot. I don't think they are necessarily incorrect in what they asked us to change. The problem in my mind that partly has occurred is that we've made such a big, wide open intersection that there's no definition of where a driver is supposed to go and that has somewhat led into what I think is the problem here. We've met with MnDot. We've looked at this intersection. We've said what can we do. We've got to do something to improve this situation. I'd like to offer one footnote and that is, part of what we ultimately wanted to do in this intersection, we did not get done prior to shutting down for the winter. Also, some of the striping and things that we even did do, with the snow, etc, you can't tell. What we talked about with MnDot, to improve the situation, they feel comfortable with it, I think it will work, is basically looking at three elements. I've got to go back and take a firm look at it, of what we're talking about is the construction of a 2 foot wide concrete median that would run from the pc of this curb to the pt in this fashion. It would designate that movement lane for the eastbound driver. It would give the westbound driver that left turn than he's looking for, that comfort zone median on his left. I think it would just help clarify the entire intersection. The next item we're looking at doing, this small island here was in the original construction plans. We made a decision, I think at this point it's proven to be wrong, but we made a decision this fall not to build that island and see how the intersection worked because we were concerned that that island might cause a problem in itself. As it turns out, I think it would have added some definition to the intersection that might have helped. We think that it might be very appropriate to define the intersection by putting that in. We would then mark the left turn movements, put in a stop bar, mark the right turn movements with a stop bar. We would also have a number of signs that would be going in here such as keep right and all the appropriate signs that would define the intersection. The other thing we've looked at, and this comes into the fire department issue, is extending this left turn nose. Now the difficulty there is, the further we extend that, the sharper it makes that eastbound movement. If we can extend that even 5 to 10 feet and still accomplish getting the firetruck around the corner, and semis, I think what it will help is' it will slow the normal ea'stbound driver down to make this more of a right hand turn. Part of the problem that Cit I o SOU rat rig The lei poi wil and May sno j~s thi Gar or bot is let . isli · in to tall lo~ aboi eve~ areI wha; May not' Gar! curl all! May snoi snoi Gar~ ! get:~ May y Council Meet.ing ruary 8, 1988 - Page 47 bserved right now is because it's so open, the eastbound traffic, th to eastbound, is taking that corner at 2~-25 mph, at a fairly high of speed. This is intended to be similar to any intersection at a ht angle that we have in town other than it's a larger intersection. intent is, that this driver slows down and and makes a slow speed, hand turn. I think that's maybe part of the problem. At this mt, these items are what we have reviewed with MnDot. What we hope solve the problems, define the intersection better for the driver clean up all of the turn movements. sr Hamilton: It's going to make it awfully difficult for plowing ~ I would think. There's no sense in putting in islands that we're t going to smash up our equipment on. They're going to hit those ~gs. ~ Ehret: In terms of defining for the driver who is moving westbound the driver who is moving south to east, the only two options that ~ myself, other people in our company or the people at MnDot can see, the construction of a raised median or the painting, stainmark tering or whatever just will be of little value in the winter. This Lnd may not be necessary. Part of the reason we came up with that le island was, we don't have a place where you can put a sign that physically out there and driver's eyes, when he comes to 'that ~rsection. That's why I think we're getting some of the .leaning also the southern side of the intersection because you can't get your keep Ut sign where it belongs where a guy is used to seeing it. We ~ed, Gary and I, earlier as we kicked this around, the median, the ]er red line there, it could be a low profile type median. At least live you kind of rumble to get to the edge there but it wouldn't have de like a jersey barrier, sticking up that high so it would also be a tle more durable on equipment and such. What we would be talking at here is either a 6 inch median, just a barrier curb or we could ~ look at the mountable curb that you have in all the residential as. I personally don't believe that would be a snowplowing problem tsoever. >r Hamilton: If it was just a curb, just a plain old curb it might be. Ehret: We're not talking about anything more than either a barrier with the typical 6 inch curb or a mountable. The kind you have on your residential subdivisions. )r Hamilton: It's just a matter of how are you going to clear the ~ off of there Gary? If they run the auger down there with a ~blower thing, how are they going..~ Warren: In this area, it takes more care, even now, for them to and quite honestly, the Bobcat with the snowblower attachment that ust acquired this year, has become very useful in these types of .ations because it is a more mobile piece of equipment. Hamilton: I think extending that thing for the left turn, I don't City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 4-8 think we want to just be able to say the firetruck can make the turn but they have to be able to make it comfortably and semis. That's really pushing it, extending that 6 to 8 to 10 feet. Gary Ehret: We certainly aren't going to do it if it will inhibit the movement of those vehicles. Mayor Hamilton: Like I say, it's got to be turning comfortably. They can't be wasting time. If they're in a hurry, they're going to turn and they can't be dinging around there trying to maneuver it so they can get around, even though all the experts say you can do it. I'm sure they can probably do it but they need to be able to turn. The same with semis. A lot of times they don't care if they run over curbs and things so they'll do that and there go your shurbs and your lights and everything else. Gary Ehret: That's a good point. That's an argument that we got into with MnDot. MnDot's standard on new construction such as this is to be all mountable curb. The specific reason is because they want the truck that doesn't make the curve, to have his wheels just run right up and into the boulevard, whatever it takes and we felt that that was highly inappropriate for what we were trying to accomplish down there and we fought fairly significantly with MnDot on allowing even down in these areas, the barrier curb as compared to the mountable because we don't want to encourage people to drive their wheels up on these boulevards. Relative to this movement, I definitely agree and understand your concern. I personally believe, and we will look at this, but I personally believe that that movement, once they've done it a time or two, will not be any more difficult than some of the tight movements they have in some of the residential areas. They have some pretty sharp curves to make in residential areas. Don't you think if that intersection stays kind of the way it is, it's marked through a season when everybody has gone through to see what they're doing without snow being all over the place, that 90% of your people who drive there would get used to it and have a good understand of what they're supposed to do? Gary Ehret: I think that there is unquestionably a learning factor associated with this intersection. In fact, the entire downtown area and it would get better. However, I don't know what the exact background of TH 101 traffic is but you're always, until TH 101 changes it's route at some point in the future, if ever, we're always going to have some background traffic who are not familiar with the intersection. In my opinion, I think there are some movement problems here that we need to address for those kinds of motorists. Councilman Boyt: Would you tell me the purpose of this intersection. We went over this a year ago but maybe you can remind me why we designed it like that, in general. Gary Ehret: There were two basic alternatives that were studied anywhere from a year to 3 years ago. One alternative was bring this intersection from the south up into a "T" intersection where the driver Ci_lY Council February 8, Meet i. ng 1988 - Page 49 wh~ Cou I'[] did Gar and I'[] iht the wou mov Cou tha tha Gar to bou Cou tra of eas Gar will coming north would have to stop and turn left. ncilman Boyt: What were we trying to accomplish when we did this? sure we had several alternatives but we chose this one because it something better than the others. Can you tell me what that was? y Ehret: What we are trying to accomplish is ultimately TH 1M1 south north is designated to have a different route. Now if that occurs, not sure but what we were hoping to accomplish is focusing traffic the downtown area from TH 5/TH 1M1 intersection, moving north into downtown and not encountering any stop type conditions. Traffic ld flow freely through this area. That would be the focal point for mment of traffic into the downtown. mcilman Boyt: Given that that was our objective, that triangle t's sort of in the middle, tell me, what was the purpose of putting t in there? ~ Ehret: The purpose of this is specifically to separate the south ~astbound traffic with the free right traffic that's occurring north ~d to eastbound. ~cilman Boyt: That's great if you've got a one-way but with two way ~fic it seems to me that what you're doing is . taking two lanes ~raffic and dumping them . - on that road at the point of your ~ngle. So we've basically got the people who are coming from the swimming up river. f Ehret: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. ! Councilman Boyt: What I'm saying is you're turning two lanes of traffic in ~o'one. You're turning the one from the south and you're taking the one]from the west. My point is, I think you could accomplish what you wahl it' Gar' Cou is, sore, eve', it Gar dirl ire, on to dir say'. it' to accomplish if you take that triangle and move it. The location at is contributing to your problem so why does it have to be there? Ehret: Which way are you suggesting moving it? ~cilman Boyt: You want to put something up there where the red line why don't you take that triangle out and see if we can't figure out thing to put where your red line is that's substantial enough so ybody can see it and get's the traffic to go the direction you want :o. I just don't see that it's contributing a great deal. Ehret: What the concerns are is two lanes move north in this ction. One of those two lanes is designated as a right turn and a lane condition moving this way. This is a very common application ny trunk highway where you install an island to sort out your north ~astbound movement with the movement that's occurring in this ~ction. We can look at your idea. I think I understand what you're ng. It's basically eliminate this island, somehow reconfigure that sorting out your westbound movement from your eastbound movement. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 50 Councilman Boyt: What I'm saying is, you've got a natural flow from the south to the west. No problems as long as nobody else gets in the way but unfortunately we have cars come in from the east and they don't fit in that diagram. You do great with the cars coming from the south and as long as they don't want to turn, you do okay with the ones that come from the west but with the other cars, they don't have a chance. They're out there like little ~illard balls. Councilman Horn: Isn't the purpose of that green island to give people some separation until they can adequately merge? Gary Ehret: Yes. The southbound to eastbound and the northbound to eastbound. Councilman Horn: If you pull that out of there, they're going to start merging clear back just as you come off the road. By putting that in there, you've given them some separation until they can get themselves organized. Gary Ehret: Part of what we're trying to accomplish is that these two movements, the south to east and north to east, those drivers have basically come close to being parallel before they're forced together. That they've gotten around the corners and whichever way they're moving and they're now going in the same direction. That is one of the purposes of this island. Otherwise, these two movements come together in this area and they're not sure what they're supposed to do. Mayor Hamilton: You probably should have a yeild sign there. Councilman Boyt: ...it's not the guy who's making the right turn because he's slowed down. The big threat is the guy who is trying to make the left turn and get across that rapid lane of traffic. Councilman Horn: He's got the right-of-way. Councilman Boyt: But he's being confronted by people who are coming from the east and they haven't got it figured out. Councilman Horn: The road accomodates them. It's just that they can't see where their markings are. Gary Ehret: The problem with the westbound guy, which I think is what you're trying to say or are saying, and that he's kind of lost in here and he's head-on with the guy who's trying to move east. That's what we hope to accomplish or should accomplish with the installation of this piece. Councilman Boyt: You're doing that but what you're doing is just putting more stuff out into that intersection and it would seem to be that less is better than more. If you can get less by taking it all out and starting over, I think you ought to do that. Mayor Hamilton: Whatever makes it work is best. Ci~ Feb Co~ pe¢ One got y Council Meeting ruary 8, 1988 - Page 51 ncilman Johnson: I think the lack of stuff in that intersection has ple going everywhere. They don't know where they're supposed to be. thing, what Bill's got me thinking about is to widened what you've in red there by making the big green island a little narrower. In other words, take the northern side of the big green island. If you're going to extend the point a little, you can actually give yourself a bigger separation if you could move over so your little thin red curve could actually be a little bigger by narrowing the island a little bit so wid hay bei beU Gar Cou Cou Cou dow Cou fro', sro Cou eas thei the, dow to May We ' Gar~ int~ acc acc any Cou' the sim' Gar I'm' COU rou' down here you'll have a bigger... Pull that side in a little and shed it that way a little where they can see the separation. They'll ~ distinct traffic lanes to travel in and also, if you're going to .=xtending that top turning point, that gives you a better. Is there benefit in extending the southern or the bottom turning point up to ter channelize it? ~ Ehret: The problem with doing that comes into your left turn. ~cilman Johnson: We definitely have to slow those people down there. .~cilman Boyt: The whole idea is not to slow them down. ~cilman Johnson: The people making the left turn we have to slow ~cilman Boyt: I'll buy that but it's designed so the people coming D the south go to the west and they get there with a smooth flow. No )ping. Just slide right on through. ~cilman Johnson: But the people coming from the west turning to the aren't slowing down because it's just a wide open shot for them, f're just shooting right across there so we need something to slow down. If they don't slow down for the railroad bridge on TH 1~1 on the south side, you know the people around here need something ~low them down. Hamilton: Maybe you can take those ideas and bring them back. be on this all night. Ehret: I guess what's important is that it's a very difficult ~rsection because of the way of the movements and we're trying to )modate MnDot but more specifically the traffic-that they want to )modate. We will work with staff and MnDot again to see if there are other approaches that we can try to come up with here. ~cilman Horn: I think the only thing to keep in mind is the ease of snowplow, trying to get trucks that can turn and to make it as )le as possible without putting more garbage into the street. Ehret: This one I'm not sure, the no parking and the stop signs. not sure how much of a concern those are to the Council. Maybe I ld just briefly go through those. This again illustrates the TH 1~1 :e. We've reviewed this also with MnDot at considerable length. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page What they are trying to accomplish on this stretch of roadway is taking the north to eastbound traffic and the south to eastbound traffic. At two lanes that accomodate that traffic, through the Great Plains intersection and at that point merging them into one eastbound lane which this condition is basically what you have today. One lane each direction. I believe you have parking on the south side. They have taken a very clear position on the stop signs on that corner that they will not permit them. If that is of concern, the Council, or the HRA or whoever, if would advise us as such, I can let you know what it is we have to do to pursue that further but they had to this point taken a very clear stand on that. There will not be stop signs there. Another concern that we've been made aware are the pedestrian movements in that area. What you have right now, we were not able to stripe any crosswalks in there at all. We don't have any pedestrian marking signs. What we will be doing in the spring is clearly marking on the pavement, crosswalks on both sides of the street. We have talked to MnDot, they will permit pedestrian crossing signs both at the crossing and in advance on each direction. We can do that for the pedestrian crossing movements. Mayor Hamilton: It needs to be east/west on Great Plains also. Gary Ehret: Oh yes. We've got some signage yet to go up that I think will help a little bit. Somebody I saw had tacked a homemade sign up relative to the cross traffic not stopping. If that's no problem, that's something I can address. Mayor Hamilton: It's certainly a problem when you take the signs down and you don't tell anybody you're doing it. That's something you'd think MnDot would have enough brains to figure that out in advance. That if you take down the stop signs and you don't tell anybody that you're taking them down, pretty soon everybody is banging into each other. That was the dumbest thing I ever saw. Gary Ehret: I'm not sure how that could have been handled better but I have no doubt it could have been handled better. Mayor Hamilton: I've seen other places when you do something like that you put a flag up with a sign saying that cross traffic does not stop any longer. YOu've got to call people's attention to it. Councilman Horn: The homemade sign was obviously the answer to that. Councilman Johnson: I think almost everybody that uses that intersection almost got clobbered there until the first couple times they did that. In fact, I even came to a stop and then the guy behind me, hey there ain't no stop sign there. Mayor Hamilton: Where you've got your two lanes coming in there, it would seem to me that you would want to merge them sooner. Where you've got the yield sign down on the turn, where you're going southeast. Let them merge immediately and then you've got a lane for making a left hand turn. There's a lot of left hand turn traffic going onto Great Plains. Ci t: Pe~ It one Gar iht cou Gar eve MnI Ma~ Yo~ paz tr~ Ga! Co~ th~ Gal th mo~ no is ot~ id~ Ha~ fa( Council Meeti_ ng .. ruary 8, 1988 - Page ~ould make a lot more sense to make left hand turn traffic and have lane continuing east. Ehret: We wouldn't accomplish that if we moved these two together one lane. or Hamilton: Why not? ncilman Johnson: You merge to the right. y Ehret: Oh, designating this as a left turn lane and merge rybody. That's a possibility. In fact, our original submittal to or, that is what we did before they pulled markers and everything. y came back and said they didn't want that but that's something, if 're interested in, I'd be happy to pursue that with them again. or Hamilton: That's a big traffic. You've got Kenny's over there. 'ye got 3 or 4 stores over there that people turn to go into. They k in there to go across the street to Pauly's so there's a lot of ffic. y Ehret: I think that's a good idea and that's something we... ncilman Horn: I'd sure like to hear MnDot's logic for not doing it t way. y Ehret: I'm not sure other than I guess in the way they look at ngs, they're not necessarily looking at or are concerned with ements in other areas. What they're looking at is the person who .ts to get onto eastbound TH 101 and move or the guy who's coming th and wants to go through. As far as they're concerned, everybody heading east on TH 101. I guess I'm not going to speak for them .er than to say, I'd be happy to go back and talk to them about the a of a left turn lane. ry Pauly: I'd just like to make a co_mment. I think speed is the big ~tor on that stretch of TH 101 there. Those cars are going near 40 mp~ and some of them even faster. I think you're going to have to make a t urvey or something to slow that traffic down. YOu talk about not ing these stop signs. To let that traffic go but that's one way of hal mal on -! la~ mai thi de~ it ting down the speed if you have a stop sign. It is really excessive that interchange. But they did have, like you were saying on that iking that for a left turn onto Great Plains, there was a similar mark the other side coming west. It merges to one lane there and a double ~e on the north side of that intersection. That's the way it was iked last fall. Now I don't know why that couldn't be done the same .ng on the west side of that intersection. Merging that into one lane e that. That sounds like a sensible solution, at least to turning .ffic. Another thing that possibly could be put up there to slow the ffic would be a blinking amber. That would be some kind of a warning 'ice at least that there's a crosswalk there. These people going by, s unbelieveable the speed that they're traveling at. I tell you, ~t stand there and watch them for a while. City Council Meeting m February 8, 1988 - Page 54 Mayor Hamilton: I agree with you Harry. I've noticed that too. They're going by there like crazy and we probably need to get the deputies out there to do a little radar patrol to get them to slow down. Harry Pauly: At least if they weren't issuing tickets but at least find out how fast some of those cars are going by. Of course, if there's a squad car sitting there, they won't do it. Gary Ehret: I think Mr. Pauly has a very valid concern. I've had several people tell me that. We pursued with MnDot the idea of a couple different things. Just the pedestrian crossing markings. The school crossing markings and a blinking school light or flashing amber. When you get into any kind of signalized blinking situation here, they have very specific warrant criteria that they apply to that and they have again, made it very clear that this intersection does not meet the warrants for flashing signals. It doesn't mean they can't be there if we attempt to pursue it but they've taken a very firm position on it. I think we would be very hard pressed to get them even though they may be warranted. The criteria that MnDot sets up for those kinds of issues will not be met here, I can tell you that. Councilman Horn: I think we should wait to get any tougher until we get our plans in place for TH 5. Then we'll get them out to talk about it. Gary Ehret: Any other questions? I think if there are no other questions, what I'd like to do is have Jim Lasher briefly go into the last couple of items on our agenda. Jim Lasher: I've got the short end of the agenda here. I'm here to talk a little bit about Heritage Park update. A couple of things that we've been drawing and looking at with that and a presentation of some ideas that we've come up. Purely ideas generated by discussions with ourselves and staff concerning a possible look at the rear facade of the Pony's/Pauly's/Pryzmus building. I think this spring we're going to start into about $250,000.00 to $300,000.00 worth of urban design elements. Landscaping, lighting and as you know, we've got two months to do it in. It's going to go very fast. Apparently landscaping crews bring on 3 or 4 separate crews. They're going to try and work a couple of different shifts. It's just fly in and fly out. I'm supposedly going to start flying around the country and approving vegetation prior to it's shipment here so when the trees do get to this point, there will be no approval process based on that. Eveything will be preapproved once it's brought in. I will be in Indiana and Illinois, all at the contractor's expense. He knows that it costs him a lot of money to ship trees to here and have me say I want this one, I'll take this one so we're going to get that all out of the way this winter and try to expediate this as much as possible. One of the other things that we'd like to talk about and present Heritage Park as it appears now is not a good scenario of what it will look like when it's completely done. Councilman Horn: While you're on the tree issue, do we have a species of tree that won't be killed by all the road salt? Cit ~eb Jim jus Cai SUS gro go in the COU the Cou to peo sid USU Are Jim gua! havi havi ord whe fan pro, thil wil : youi sho! wil, seri deti the exi ligl sma! andi outl iht an tha the; tha and Council Meeting ~uary 8, 1988 - Page 55 Lasher: Yes, generally the species that we've picked out are all tolerant. We are having some mendents put into the soil which is generally an acidic process they're using in most cities now in fornia that helps the first couple years of getting itself imated because there will be some salt put on and it's highly ~eptible at the beginning. We're going to put some sulphur in the ~nd to make it a little bit more of an acidic soil process when they n and then after a certain period of time, once it gets established t's own soil, that will help it out but we have picked, hopefully, most salt tolerant species we can in shurbs and trees. ~cilman Horn: It seems we plant them in the summer and kill them in winter. ~cilman Johnson: I'd like to ask a question that's sort of related :he trees. At the recent League of Cities conferences, several ~le had the items showing a root guard system that protects streets, ~walks and stuff, from the roots. Where you sink this in. It ~lly has a watering system designed around it and things like that. some of those speced for here too? Lasher: No. There is nothing speced in that scenario. What the :ding system works real well in an urban condition where we don't ~ infiltration from the top. We've got this completely sodded so we ~ to do protection literally 36~ degrees all the way around it in Jr to have it. That is a wonderful system for an urban scenario :e they've got concrete all the way around the trees. It works :asticly. In this scenario, it would be an extremely expensive :ess that probaby wouldn't do us an awful lot of good in our scenario It now but it is a good point. This is a drawing that I prepared 3 past week to show final design of construction as Heritage Park [ be built and hopefully completed in the early spring/late fall. As can see, we're showing off the whole scenario with the building to ~ off the side facade as well as the face. The associated materials [ be 6 wooden benches and a series of planters for annuals and a es of areas for annual plantings along the entry wall. There is a iled ornamental fence that will be going in along the entries into plaza that mirror the existing metal that is going along next to the ~ting St. Hubert's church. It's kind of a copy detail. Then there light fixtures, three which are located within the plaza itself. One ~he front and two in the back here. Other associated elements are up ~ting to light the wall and vegetation as is presently planned. Two [1 spotlights that are going to light the base of this building here two spotlights that go shooting up and lighting just the face of St. ~rt's church. The whole area is basically going to glow from the ~ide in in the evening. We purposedly did not light any of the ~rior spaces but lit all of the surrounding areas to create more of ~mbient light in a center with task lighting on the edges. One thing ~ has come up in discussions with staff and some local townspeople is possibility of doing a mural on the side of this existing building ~'s next to Hertiage Park. At this time I'd like to introduce Herb hear some of his thoughts on this mural. He originally had some City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 56 conversations about it. Herb Bloomberg: I don't know if you know that Chanhassen Dinner Theater had a London Theater Tour three times last fall. We made the third trip over there and it happened that we went up to York and off to Edinburgh, Scotland and everytime we get to London we also go to Copengarden. I think most people know that Copengarden, of course where Lize Doolittle and My Fair Lady come from. But in the previous year they had torn down the building and there's a big stone, brick wall, bare. Last year I came back and I was so surprised to see this mural on that plain wall. In the upper right hand corner this pink structure in there is strictly a mural. It's so real. I thought, as I've driven in town and looked at the side of the Pauly building and was thinking what a place for a mural because there's a lot of history in that building. When we moved out here 30 years ago, Dutch Pauly was operating, he was Post Master and the Post Office was in the back end of the building and some of that would be an interesting mural design could show the entrance to the Post Office and Dutch Pauly in the years and so forth. The front was a grocery store and I think it would really be interesting to see what we could do with that with just an interesting paint job but I'm not sure it's possible. Councilman Horn: I like the idea of incorporating some Chanhassen history in this. Jim Lasher: As we take a look at this, obviously I'm not trying to present any specific idea here, only to show you that the options are very great to pain a mural. It's approximately 1,000 square feet. The building right now is about 70 by 12 1/2. It would run pretty much the length of the entire building. One thing that it would help do is help to create another sense of dimension in this somewhat small area. If we could provide a one point perspective that receeded into this building and possible show some old building areas and signage and maybe some people, it could create a whole other animated dimension that would really help the whole area take off. So that was the few things I wanted to talk about in the Hertiage Park area. Don Ashworth: If I could make a quick point because we're talking about the Pauly building. One of the issues again was the turning of the building and the question as to how that may lay out as far as the exposed aggragate and the parking area and all the rest. We have not had an opportunity to meet with the property owners, Harry Pauly, John Pryzmus, Kallsted regarding what we may do and work with them as a part of their buildings in this whole area but it became quite obvious in looking at this that we in fact have changed their front door to their backside or their backside now becomes their front door. So as a part of some of the questions regarding the turning of that building, which by the way is in perspective in this drawing. Jim in fact has turned it as a part of what you see there. He's trying to relay some design concepts for that whole area. Again, we have not talked with Harry and we do need to do that before we would look at anything more specific. Jim Lasher: If I could give everybody a copy of some of the ideas that City Council Meeting FeZruary 8, 1988 L Page we bal lo4 th~ an~ the in~ me the just generated in-staff, in-house, to just take a quick look at the k of the Pauly's/Pony's/Pryzmus building. The first page that you're king at inside is the existing conditions board. A couple of things t already exist. The existing conditions right now of the buildings we've basically got a scenario of irregular heights which adds to somewhat complex nature of the look of it. We've got an onsistent surface treatment with some woods and concrete and some al stairs. A couple facilities that possibly are not needed anymore, incinerator area. Some of the inappropriate facilities would be s overhead line which apparently is going to be removed come spzingtime when NSP does their work in this area. Just the general area as it stands right now is kind of a hodgepodge, not necessarily all tied together and now we've really made this a center focal point of driving into the downtown. The first concept that we looked at roughly was the scenario of providing a trellis, an enclosure that would consistently run all the way along the tops of the buildings. What this does is it provides a consistent height and makes the whole structure se~m uniform. If you look at the section in this area, you can see that it's just a standard post construction with a trellis area going over th~ top. This could be a weather proof scenario that would provide for walking underneath this canopy. There could be lighting up in this area that would provide somewhat of a glow in the evening. We could have some plant material located in the base. Just a quick general idea to see what one concept would look like with a covering. From that point we .go to another concept called false facades. It kind of plays off what Herb was talking about. What we do is go through and build two or three canopy areas overtopping the existing doorways as they exist now and then go back through and detail a design, certain pieces like an additional group structure which is presently on the front of the building like this, we'd put it on the back. An additional piece here that kind of creates a small overhange as it exists now. Possibly adding a little bit more of a story to this. What we're doing is just kird of creating an old western kind of a theme here with building faces and windows and all of this would be painted with the exception of 2 or 3 danopy areas that are located on the plan in this area. One thing that the stairs do provide, you can look at them as a positive element just by saying it provides a vertical circulation. We could paint some people on the side of the wall next to the stairs as if they were walking up all the time. These open up a lot of different scenarios for possibilities of use. We call that one a false facade. The last one is a pure mural where we take the entire building and put a stain coat of white stucco over the top of it and go through and do an elaborate perspective sketch that would go from A to Z as far as what we could hav~. Ranging from the historic into some kind of modernistic statement. It could literally be anything and I think it just goes to sho~ that just a series of repainting of an area and giving it a series of~imilar colors that stretch from one side to the other can really uni~y something that appears to be adhoc right now. I'm here to present these ideas just as ideas but I'm also here to solicit any kind of comments or ideas that you folks may have about what could happen to thi'~ area if we do continue to work on this type of d~sign. Cou~cilman Horn: I would say it should look consistent with our model. : City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page Councilman Horn: I would say it should look consistent with our model. Jim Lasher: So that leads us back to more of a constructed element of a trellis possibly where we would stick with the wood materials, the soft elements. Councilman Horn: I think a good place for the mural, the corner where you've got a bare wall and if you look at it you should see some impact and that makes sense but I can't imagine a mural with people walking up the stairs. Mayor Hamilton: I think before we do much else, we're going to have to talk to the property owners to see what they'd like to do. I'm not going to sit here and comment without knowing what they would like to do. Jim Lasher: We're here just to broach the topic and let people know that this is something that as a group, we thought of. Councilman Horn: Has Harry seen these before? Don Ashworth: I don't think that he's seen any of them. Do you want to give a first impression Harry? Harry Pauly: Just a first impression... John Pryzmus: I'd like to comment that you made the front of our buildings the back and the back the front, so now do you propose to put our garbage in the front or where do we put our garbage if we're going to make our front the back? Jim Lasher: We've got some detailed areas in the parking lot layout. John Pryzmus: And with the addition of all the building that goes on, we don't have any parking back there now so that will be one problem but just a little food for thought. Being that you cost me $267,000.00 tonight when you voted me down, possibly you could give me that much money to fix up my building and I'll be happy to go along with you guys. Councilman Boyt: I would like some assurance that if there's a change that it will be clearly highlighted. What sort of things are you doing to insure that it will happen in the future? Jim Lasher: They will be clearly highlighted as far as what elements are actually going to be built? Councilman Boyt: We're provided with a great deal of information and it turns out that any one part of it that changes can have a surprising impact. There have been changes that I didn't know were changes until I saw them constructed. I want to know, what are we going to do to prevent that in the future. Jim Lasher: I think during the construction phase, honestly in what 223 Cify Council Meeting Fe]:ruary 8, 1988 - Page 9'g we've done already, changes sometimes have to occur immediately to finish the project. Other times changes occur at a staff level directing us to make a change based on other input. Sometimes changes occur from design development to construction documents. Councilman Boyt: Let's go to the old Town Hall since that's the change that caught many people's attention. Tell me what were the objectives that turned that Town Hall? Ji~ Lasher: The four main objectives to turn the Town Hall are one, to create a sense of depth for the building. If you put the building on a fl~sh condition, the building is a front without a side or a back. The pretense of moving the building on it's edge now gives the building an entire body. When you walk into the plaza from generally any angle, you will perceive a minimum of two sides of the building' This being the building right here. Allowing entry from the front, we are not only se( lng the face of the building from this edge, we are now seeing the de th. One of the more interesting aspects of this building as with mo~ t of these buildings is their proportion and how intimate their pr(portion is from front to side. This is a two-thirds/one-thirds sc~ nario which is usually the way it works. That is something that generally does not occur any longer. They just don't build buildings in this scale so that was one of the elements that we tried to bring out of th~ building. The other access is along the backs of these buildings. No~', by turning the building on it's edge, we allow a glimpse of the fr~ nt facade as well as the side so now we have a two side view from thl s and a two side view from this. That was the main point for tuning the building. To try and express it's volume as much as po~.sible and create a sense of depth in this area. CoUncilman Boyt: To give a two side perspective? Ji~ wo~ bu. be~ yo~ ab, it th~ Gal be( Co~ of' At ~ Lasher: Right, and not just a frontal view or a side view which you ~ld have had here with no sense at all of what the face of the lding looked like. The face of the building is truly one of the most .utiful aspects of the building and by pushing it up and just showing . the side, we're really not giving people a sense of what this is all .ut here. By twisting it now and you can walk back there and look at you can actually see the front of the building from this sidewalk in back. First scenario. 'y Ehret: I think the key element that you're after is that we've ~ome more sensitive to aesthetical issues, in particular a change the incil is not made aware of. I think the key to that is that we try to 'k more closely with staff or to come back maybe a little bit more fen just to let you know what it is we're doing and where we're going. least that's my sense. Col as] o[1. su [ncilman Boyt: I'm not sure what the answer is. That's what I'm lng you for. I can tell you that this was a surprise to me and I y have myself to blame. Now what I want to know is, how can I avoid iprises in the future? So far, I haven't got a lot of confidence that City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page I'm going to avoid these surprises in the future and if I don't have confidence, then I'm not going to spend money to have somebody surprise me. That's what it all comes down to. So you've given me three objectives. You said the depth for the building. You wanted to show that. You wanted to show the design features of the building and you wanted to provide a two sided perspective. Because of that, you put the building on an angle to what had historically been the main street. Jim Lasher: There are two more scenarios after that. Do you want me to continue with this? Councilman Boyt: Yes. Jim Lasher: By turning the building on an angle as wel'l, we've number one been able to push the building farther back to create a larger volume here and we have not had such an encroachment which is now a driving lane to the edge of this building. If we straighten the building, this edge would have been quite close to this roadway condition. When we originally did the design, the parking lot actually has changed in design twice since we did the original concept. We've added much more parking in the back than we originally had and so now we've had to do something with this space that's gotten smaller. Originally this space extended all the way down. So those are the three basic reasons why we turned the building at an angle. Councilman Boyt: Let me ask a question to follow up on that. What you're saying is that you never had that building facing West 78th Street? Jim Lasher: No, what I said is we moved it because of those three reasons. The building was straight at a point when the parking lot was in a different scenario of design. Once we decided that this parking lot was going to change in configuration, we're going to have a driving lane here, we came out and reviewed the structure and the historics of this building, at that point in time the decision was made to move it. Presentation was made twice with the tilted building on a drawing that I think presently is up in Don Ashworth's office that showed the building at an angle as well as the construction documents. Councilman Boyt: So then originally all this business about depth and showing two sides didn't play a factor but when the parking lot changed, these now became factors and we ended up with this? Jim Lasher: I supposed. Councilman Boyt: I mean originally you had it fronting on the street, right? Jim Lasher: Yes, originally I had it pulled much farther back. What happened is, once it was pulled back you could make this view and see the front side of the building. Once the parking lot changed, we had to slide the building up this way farther to create space here. Fe~ Cog ch~ Ji~ la~ en~ to Col tr] sa~ Do! y Council Meeting ruary 8, 1988 - Page ncilman Boyt: So the parking lot was the driving force behind this nge? Lasher: The parking lot was the driving force behind, this driving e specifically right here was the driving force. We had to get ugh space between the edge of that curb and the edge of the building make this a safe area. .ncilman Boyt: I know it must sound like I'm berating you. I'm not 'ing to do that. I just want to know what your objectives were and to that I hope we figure out a way so I can be smarter next time. Ashworth: For all of us to learn more out of this, you had a pr liminary design that was in a rough stage. After that you authorized plans and specifications. The error that was made is in the preparation of plans and specifications, the change was not highlighted as it came ba¢~k to City Council. Therein lies the crux of the problem. I think we ha~ a couple of chances to catch it and to the best of my knowledge it wa: really never highlighted to City Council, in defense of the ar~ hitects and engineers. There were a lot of things that we were doing dulling that whole timeframe as far as making the whole project area woi'k. I think that this one is one that did catch everyone's eye and de initely should have been brought to the Council's attention saying th s has changed as we move from the preliminary design into specific de ign. CoUncilman Boyt: I think it's especially pertinent given how much time we spent discussing the clock tower and how little we spent on this. It wo~lld seem to me that you would want some parallel lines with your bui lding in there and I only see one. What I see is a conflict. I've go~. those circular sorts of things coming through Hertiage Park and then th4y run into the rectangular building. Is that the best we can do? Jil Lasher: Based on our interpretation of the area, we wanted to privide number one, by turning the building on this angle we've allowed en':rance into the plaza and more of an opening in that spirit along the ed~!e of the church so we do have an angle that's consistent and runs sti'aight out to this area. The entire paving pattern was based on the col~cept that this building sat here for quite a long period of time and th s paving is going to be designed to be as if it was there for years an. years and years. It will not be a new looking scenario. It will be anfold looking scenario so these patterns could be a part of a larger picture. That's what we tried to emulate in this whole scenario is that th~s is a much bigger picture here and we're trying to make. this building look as if it has maintained it's original site and all the re~t was added in after it. CoUncilman Boyt: You've got a church there that must be 100 years old. Th~nk you, Jim. Be, ' · - .nle. I have one comment Where are all the people coming from that ar~ going into the park? You have'no crosswalk from the north side and pe)ple that are going to come into the park apparently will have to come in-the back end. It's the only place they can enter. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page Mayor Hamilton: Why can't they cross the street from the north? Bernie: There's no crosswalk. Mayor Hamilton: There will be a marked crosswalk on both sides. Anything else Jim or Gary? Gary Ehret: No. Thank you. Mayor Hamilton: I hope we have an early thaw so we can get started early. Gary Ehret: What we hope to accomplish is to touch base with the Council and saw we are aware of some problems and your concerns. We're your consultant so if you have problems, we're more than willing to come and talk to you and we wanted to stress that. What we're trying to do is give you the product you're looking for. Mayor Hamilton: I think what Bill is saying, he'd like to have you talk to him before the fact rather than after next time. APPOINTMENTS TO COMMISSIONS: Mayor Hamilton: The Board of Adjustments, all three members expired at the same time I guess. This is an annual appointment. They have all expressed interest in being reappointed. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to hold all appointments to the Commissions until a unified method of appointment to the Commissions is worked out. That the terms be extended until that can be worked out. Councilman Boyt and Councilman Johnson voted in favor. Councilman Horn and Mayor Hamilton voted in opposition to the motion and the motion failed with a tie vote of 2-2. Mayor Hamilton: I guess I'm not sure what that's going to accomplish. I will not continue to go to meetings. Councilman Boyt: I'm willing to exclude your Commission but in the others, it will allow us to develop having objectives for our Commissions and Commissioners to qualify under. We haven't worked those out. I think that we've got some really important commission appointments and to do those, we could extend the current terms until we have that worked out and then we could complete the appointments. I think the commissioners need to know what the objectives and expectations are of the Council. I think we've got to work those out. Mayor Hamilton: I guess I'm not convinced that we're going to have that Cit Fe~ wo~ wo~ doi Ho~ wo~ na~ I q bes dot, ~u] Th~ Col th~ ~n¢ COl Council Meeting ruary 8, 1988 - Page ked out soon. We have volunteer people who are willing to do the k on the commissions and I guess if you're saying you think they're ng a bad job, then perhaps we should consider not reappointing them. ever, I don't feel that's the case on any of the commissions and I ld be more inclined to want to reappoint or appoint the people whose es appear here this evening and continue on with the process of ing to find the best way to handle appointments to the commissions. uess I'm still not sure that the way we're doing it now is not the t. These commissions, some of them at least, I think the way we're dling them is fine. I think we need to review the whole process. I 't disagree with that but I think we need to review it but I'm not e how long that's going to take and when it's going to get started. n once that's complete, we can continue on from that point. ncilman Boyt: One of these, the Board of Adjustment and Appeals, t's annual. I can understand that one easier than I can understand ones where we're appointing people for three years such as the Park Rec Commission. I think both of those commissioners have done a .e job. I wouldn't vote against their reappointment but I don't see need to do that right away. They both indicated they wanted to .tinue to serve and I think we can tell them this was not intended to 'lect on their performances as on our desire to make appointments 'eh some better criteria that we now have. Ma,'or Hamilton: The Park and Rec is by ordinance I can appoint them wi~:h the Council's concurrence and I guess those two people have both dolce a good job and I'd like to see them continue on there. I see no re. son not to do that. Co' ncilman Horn: I've heard two alternatives and I'd like to propose a th.rd One of the things that we have to do in business, is we always ha',e ~o post positions when it's available and it seems to me we've ta :eh that position for Planning Commission. Whether a term expires or no , we always post it for the position. I think we should be co .sistent in that policy and I would suggest that while people who have be~n on there would certainly get a very favorable rating, we shouldn't rul..e out the possibility of giving others a chance to show interest for th~se positions. Who knows, we may be able to stock them into_another position where we can't get candidates. I would be in favor of advertising for all of the positions, all of the appointments and then ma~ng our selection from all of the interested people but I don't think we'shouldl delay the selection process before we set our criteria be ause, as Tom said, that will take too long. CO' co' do in ari pr~ he Col lncilman Boyt: I think we have another issue here about the sort of fidence with the community. If we have two people that we think are ng a good job, to go out and turn up a list of 18 people who are .erested in that job is doing a disservice to those 18 people. They going through the application/interview process when they're ~bability of being appointed is very low. I don't know that we're ping ourselves or them by doing that. lncilman Horn: Are we masking that? Are we masking the fact that City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page three of the encumbants are also applying? Councilman Boyt: I don't know that we're including that in our advertisement but maybe we should. Say there are two openings and both encumbants are reapplying. Mayor Hamilton: The openings for the Park and Rec were advertised in all the local newspapers and there were no responses. Councilman Boyt: One time. Mayor Hamilton: How many times do we need to do it? Councilman Boyt: I can recall not long ago when we ran it for a couple of months. So I don't know what the limit is but I'm not convinced that there aren't people in the community interested in serving on that commission. Mayor Hamilton: As I recall the Planning Commission was run more than once because no one applied the first time and we were going to have two vacancies. They were commission members who's terms expired and they did not wish to be reappointed so we needed to find someone to take those vacancies. So the first time there were no applicants, the next time we expanded our horizons to get into the Post and the Villager I think was in operation at that time so we put it into all t~e newspapers and did have some response. I suspect some of the councilmembers were out asking people to apply as well and that generated more people. Councilman Horn: We run it as many times as it takes to get the positions filled. If we run it the first time and all we get are the incumbents, we've done our job. The incumbents get reappointed. Councilman Boyt: In this particular case, I think the feeling was that the incumbents were doing a good job and I don't think we made a sincere effort to turning up candidates. I couldn't justify making an effort to turn up candidates. Councilman Horn: I think that you've suggest when we do advertise we spell out how many positions we're looking for and how many incumbents are reapplying. Then we at least haven't misled anyone. Mayor Hamilton: I think that's fine. It's important that we go through the review process. We're kind of starting at midstream if we attempt to do it now. We start the process and then we are going to need to sit down and figure out exactly how we want to do this. How many times do you advertise? If one isn't enough for you, than we're going to have to spell that out clearly so staff can have something to follow. I think we just talked about that here about 24 hours ago. We need to give them some clear direction as to how many times should they advertise. Lori has followed what has been done previously in advertising once so now we're saying we should advertise more than that. I think to follow some procedures and find out what papers we should advertise in. How many times we should do it. How many applicants do you have to have before Cit Feb' it' Cou can Bef the May the It' haw let ord Cou pos Council Meeting =uary 8, 1988 - Page 65 enough. We need to spell all those things out. ~cilman Boyt: Let me follow up once more. The other thing that I consistently say at this time is we ought to interview these, people. )re we appoint them, even when they're incumbents, we ought to bring ~ in here and discuss with them the job as they see it and we see it. r Hamilton: I'm not going to disagree with you but that's part of process that we've been talking about doing and putting in place. not in place now. It's like having an ordinance. If you don't an ordinance in place, you're just going to fish around and say s try this for right now and see how that works until we get our nance in place. It's the same thing. ~cilman Boyt: We have a precedence of interviewing people for these' [tions and not interviewing people for these positions. May~r Hamilton: So there isn't any precedence then is there? ] Cou' the eno in in fay Cou Par Cou Cou adv May you Cou and Cou Ham Par May com pla! ~cilman Horn moved, Councilman Boyt seconded to advertise for all of positions for all of the commissions and as soon as we have received lgh candidates to fill the vacant positions, we choose the candidates :he manner that we've done in the past until we have a new procedure )lace excluding the Park and Recreation Commission. All voted in r except Mayor Hamilton who opposed and motion carried. .cilman Boyt: I would like to consider amending this to remove the and Rec from that particular process. ~cilman Horn: Why should they be any different? .~cilman Boyt: Because we've advertised that one but we haven't :rtised the others. "' ._ · . ,r Hamilton: Then I guess it becomes a question of how many times do advertise which we don't have a policy to follow. ~cilman Johnson: After we approve his motion, we could assign Park Rec because it has been advertised and we have enough candidates. ~cilman Johnson moved, Councilman Horn seconded to approve Mayor [lton's recommendation to appoint Jim Mady and Larry Schroers to the and Recreation Commission. All voted in favor and motion carried. )r Hamilton: Seeing how your motion covered all of the other three, [11 state again that I will not be attending Southwest Metro Transit nission meetings so if one of you would like to attend those in my :e, you're welcome to do so but I won't be there. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 66 Councilman Boyt: Do we need a councilmember on there? Mayor Hamilton: Dale is on there. Currently we have two people. They do not both need to be councilpeople. An at-large person. It could be anybody. Councilman Boyt: Do we have anybody that would off-hand be active and involved in that kind of issue. Councilman Horn: I'll sit in on it until we get somebody, before we advertise. Jo Ann Olsen: It's the same night as the HRA. Councilman Horn: That could be a little tough. Barbara Dacy: Except this March it would be different because the HRA's meeting is on the 24th. Councilman Horn: Are you willing to do that Jay? Councilman Johnson: Sure. I think we have one councilmember on and I'd like to see an at-large person on there. Somebody who rides the bus. The other thing that I'd like to bring up is the option of the Boards of Adjustment and Appeals of making the Board of Adjustments and Appeals the City Council which I believe is a legal action to do. Have us as the Board of Adjustments and Appeals. Councilman Horn: We've talked about being the HRA. We've talked about being the Board of Adjustment and Appeals. This weekend we talked about not having time to review our packets. Councilman Johnson: We review all of these anyway because they're in our packets already. What we're doing is having two groups going out and studying the same issue. As soon as they make their decision, if it comes to us a half hour later and we have to be able to make a decision also so we're already going out and doing all the research and doing everything else and coming to our own opinion. Sometimes that's wasted because they vote unanimously and it goes on by if no councilmember objects. Councilman Horn: But you shouldn't have to do that because they always stick around for our part of the meeting and tell us what their criteria was and give us that information. In fact, with one of the councilmembers on there, we get the benefit of everything that they've done. I don't think we need to research those as thoroughly as the Board people do. Mayor Hamilton: Ail three of those members are to be councilmembers, then we might just as well not have it. What's the sense? Councilman Johnson: In some cities, the Board of Adjustments and Appeals is the City Council. Feb May. Cou cou one out tho iro Cou we App peo to May tha Cou peo tho of we Cou pro be yet Cou bec Council Meeting ruary 8, 1988 - Page 9r Hamilton: That's fine. In a lot of cities, the HRA is the ncil also. I'm just saying, it makes no sense to me to have the ~cilmembers be on the Board of Adjustments. We have three people, councilmember is on that board and the other two are independent side people and I think that gives a different perspective to some of se issues. That's probaby one of the basic things that we should get ned out. ncilman Boyt: I guess as long as we've worked that out, and I think have, a councilmember can take anything the Board of Adjustment and ~als passes and put it on the agenda. I'm pleased to have 3 other ple involved in the process. I gather we've worked out the ability ~o that. or Hamilton: I'm not sure if we have or not. Maybe Roger can answer t. er Knutson: Your ordinance says that anyone that has agreed to a ision... ncilman Boyt: I think it's important that we get the word. to the ple who we're advertising the positions for, who are currently in se positions, that we would like them to not interpret this as a vote no confidence. Is that okay with the rest of the Council? I think need to tell them something. ncilman Johnson: I totally agree with that. That it's more of cedural thing and that we felt that advertising the positions should routinely done and those positions that haven't been advertised as of should be advertised and has no reflection upon them. ncilman Boyt: The other point that I'd like to ask Tom about, ause I expect you basically are the driving force, behind the Public Safety Commission. I'd like to see that commission expanded. What do you think? I'll give you some reasons for why I think it's a good idea but I'd really like to know what you think about the possibility. think they have a tremendously big job. We've got some seasoned vet Mai mak mo]~ Coil May jus 3~' to [ thi mo~ erans on there but I'd like to see a bigger group. or Hamilton: Any of them can get bigger but no matter how big you e any commission or group that's trying to accomplish something, the e people you have the harder it is to get anything done. ncilman Boyt: More chance for input. or Hamilton: And the longer it takes to accomplish anything. It t keeps getting longer and longer and more and more. You could have people on there if you wanted. We'd just sit there forever and try decide something or you can have 5 or 6, whatever's on there now. I nk it's an effective group. I could see going to maybe 7 at the very t. Very most. _ 08 City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 68 Councilman Boyt: How about 7? This would be a good opportunity if we wanted to do that. Councilman Johnson: Would that take an ordinance amendment? Don Ashworth: If you want to pursue that, staff should be directed to... Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to direct staff to consider an ordinance amendment to increase the number on the Public Safety Commission to seven. All voted in favor and motion carried. Mayor Hamilton: Why do you think that needs to be done? Councilman Johnson: I'm just saying consider. Mayor Hamilton: I'm asking Bill why he thinks it needs to be done. Councilman Boyt: I think when we look at issues like everything from the no hunting zone to whether or not we need a fire truck. We've asked the Public Safety Commission to do a great deal of research for us and they've done it. The possibility to have 1 or 2 more people working on that, I think is a good opportunity for those people and I think it's sort of a gain with no loss. Maybe we lose a little efficiency. Maybe. I guess that's basically it. I'd just like the opportunity to get some more people working on those issues. Something to think about. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: Councilman Johnson: There was a point in our Subdivision Ordinance as a proposed recodified version. It reads the same way but I'm reading out of there. It talks about private driveways accessing highways, arterials, or collector streets. Where a proposed subdivision is adjacent to a limited access highway, arterial or collector street, there shall be no direct vehicular or pedestrian access from individual lots to such highways or streets. The intent of this is not terribly clear when it says individual lots. Does this mean that if you combine a driveway and have two lots and you have one private driveway onto a collector or arterial, that that is acceptable by this because two driveways are shared or does that driveway still say we have an access from those two individual lots? So this means when we subdivision TH 101, as an example, when we subdivide any of these places, just on Kerber Blvd., that if they want a private driveway onto the street, they need a variance. If there's a hardship, they get the variance. They get the driveway. In the past, we've been trying to get them to put the driveways together. I really think if there isn't a hardship and they could possibly put a private street, the intent of this is to limit driveways and to put streets. My feeling of the intent. What I want to get is the feeling of the other councilmembers of what they thought the intent here was. Was that to limit driveways and only allow private ci~ Fei st~ th~ Ro~ ho~ th~ ord Co~ ac( Cou It Council Meet.ing ruary 8, 1988- Page 69 eets or if you combine the driveway into two of them? To me it seems t we could either way. It's very poorly worded. er Knutson: Just to point out by definition. When you have two ses sharing a drive way to the street, that is to a public street, t shared driveway is by definition a private street under your inance. ncilman Johnson: Okay. The ordinance only says direct vehicular ess from individual lots. ncilman Horn: I can tell you where the response to that came from. was to not have what happened in Eden Prairie along TH 1~1. Barbara. Dacy: I think the issue you're trying to approach the Council on, unfortunately some of the other members have not seen the specific case that this issue came up on. Councilman Johnson: That's why I wanted to get their opinion before the specific came up. Barbara Dacy: The Planning Commission did note to staff that they wa~ted to look at that section in a little more detail based on the action on that case. That case will be brought to the attention of the Council on the February 22nd meeting. Councilman Johnson: Which I won't be at. Anyway, there is a specific case on Lake Minnewashta Blvd. that has prompted me to be researching this where it could be theoretically feasible. I think the intent of it is to try and limit the drives. Somehow this should get reworded to where it's clear. That's my intent. I don't think we should have pea)le who are individuals, their driveway, whether their driveway happens to be shared with somebody else, it's still that individual's dri'~eway or however you want to say it, there should be a street accessing a collector or arterial not a driveway. May you Cou tm]! Co~i t2o1.1 war wh~ or Hamilton: I think if you want to pursue this you ought to get r information up. ncilman Johnson: I wanted to get everybody's opinion. or Hamilton: I can't give you it tonight. I don't know what you're king about. I want to see something that I can deal with. ncilman Johnson: What do you think the intent of this paragraph is? or Hamilton: I don't know. I haven't even read the paragraph. ncilman Johnson: Would you like to? or Hamilton: No, not right now. Not at 2~ minutes to 12:~. If you t to put that on as an agenda item for the next meeting or for never you're here the next time, then we can give you an answer. City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page 70 Councilman Johnson: I guess I'm popping it too quickly on you. Mayor Hamilton: You're doing the same thing we ask developers and other people not to do and that's to give us information at the last minute and ask our opinion. Councilman Johnson: This part was written before I was here, I thought you guys may have had some experience in writing it. Councilman Boyt: I think what you've done is you've said you'd like further consideration on this item and I'd certainly be willing to look at it and we can get together and talk about it. Councilman Johnson: Another one would be to ask staff to look into the background of it and if the intent is to limit access to arterials to be streets only, then state that. Access shall be by public streets or private streets up to public street standards. A private street being one gravel driveway, I don't think should be counted as a private street. Don Ashworth: YOu're going to be writing this up anyway, I heard you say Barbara, for that February 22nd meeting? Barbara Dacy: It is in relation to a Planning Commission matter that will be at the City Council meeting. MAILING DISTRICT UPDATE/SURVEY RESULTS TO DATE, ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT. Todd Gerhardt: I think it's pretty laid out here on what is attached. Everybody that has responded with a yes/no vote. Not attached to those are the people that have not responded. It is open until Friday for people to respond to this survey. It's stated in the letter so the next City Council meeting we'll have the final results. These are preliminary results. Councilman Johnson: I think it's fairly obvious and I want the Council to take a fairly good stand here that the people up on the north side don't want anything to do with this and we should convey that to the postal service. Also, it seems that they can do this without asking permission. They could just do this without asking permission. They just do it if they wanted to. I think our people have spoken and I'd like to show them our appreciation for them to speak to the issue and tell us exactly where they stand. It's pretty darn obvious exactly where they stand. 78% to 22%. Todd Gerhardt: There will be a mailing sent to each individual on the results of the survey. Councilman Johnson: On the Chaska side, were there any areas or have we .i ci ti Feb Tod, Cou Tod. peo are any Cou~ Tod. wit cha to wri tha' Cou nee con' · Todl Cou~ 2~% Council Meeting ~uary 8, 1988 - Page ?1 .~ an aerial look at, were any areas near 90%? Gerhardt: In the Minnewashta area? ,cilman Johnson: In either area. Gerhardt: Red Cedar Point area came in with a high number of .le who were for it. The Chaska area, the south of Lake Minnewashta ...there were 4 people against it out of like 30. You don't have real high concentrated. It's mixed. cilman Boyt: What's your next step? Gerhardt: Is to get the results again with Mr. Richter and meet him to show him the results and see how receptive he is with ging the Chaska area percentages. If not, then we come in and try et some representatives, both from the State and Federal level to e letters and see what we can do basically with TH 5. Those people responded yes, put some pressure on the people at the post office. cilman Johnson: We've been going around telling these people we led 90%. We didn't even come close to that and we're going to :inue pushing this? Gerhardt: In the Chaska area. cilman Johnson: In the Chaska area we're still 70-30. We're still short. Tod~ Gerhardt: But you have 116 people for it and I think it's a pretty diverse group. It wasn't a high concentrated in one area that was against it. It was pretty spread out. Cou say rul to now Mayi wil! Tod4 somt the wel tha COU' Cou: we dec ~cilman Johnson: What I'm saying is, ethics and what we've been .ng, we've published in the paper and we've said here are the game We don't meet those criterias. The 30% won and now we're going around behind them and say that, we're trying to change the rules r Hamilton: It depends on what the Post Office says. They may be lng to accept 70%. If they do, then we can go with it. Gerhardt: If you remember at that meeting, Commissioner Richter had flexibility in that 90% afterwards. A1 Nelson, the Post Master for Chanhassen, asked him several times, are you flexible and he said, , let's see what the results are. At the next meeting we'll do cilman Johnson: This is better than a 2 to 1 rate. ~cilman Boyt: To interpret how .we got into this, was leemed to feel this was an opportunity we wanted the people to .de. They have decided in a sense and now we're going to the post City Council Meeting February 8, 1988 - Page office and saying here's our data, what decision do you make? Which is just carrying through in the process we started. Mayor Hamilton: I've noticed we've had several letters from people in the Minnewashta area saying that they live in Excelsior and don't want anything to with Chanhassen so I think the next time they have sewer back up or a water break, they ought to call the Excelsior City Hall and see how far they get. Councilman Johnson: I think that's a problem. I really feel bad when somebody tells me that but I think it's something we need to work on to get them to feel more a part of the city. I don't know how to do it though. Mayor Hamilton: I think it's one of those things we need to talk about this weekend. CONSIDER RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING FUNDS FOR TH 5 IMPROVEMENT, CITY PLANNER. Barbara Dacy: I'm going to yield to Councilman Horn. Councilman Horn: Considering the lateness of the hour, the only update that I will add is that the City of Eden Prairie has approved their allocation. Allocations were set up between Eden Prairie, Chanhassen and Chaska. Both Chaska and Eden Prairie have approved their allocations. As a matter of fact, Waconia is also contributing. Mayor Hamilton: What did Eden Prairie, what was their's? Councilman Horn: $50,000.00. Mayor Hamilton: Why did Chaska only have $20,000.00. Councilman Horn: Because this study really only addresses TH 5 which we're a direct recepient of that. Mayor Hamilton: But their residents probably use it as much as ours do. Their industrial park certainly uses it as much as anybody in Chanhassen. To double the amount that we were supposed to contribute, all of a sudden, didn't sit well with me. Councilman Horn: I think I wasn't sure of the number when I presented it the last time. I was making an estimate. It wasn't an allocation change. It was just a guess estimate on my part. Councilman Johnson: Clark, do you feel that us giving the same as Eden . Prairie, a town of 35,000 versus a town of 8,000, is appropriate? WE have more highway I guess. Councilman Horn: There's a lot of different ways to look at this thing. That's one way to look at it. The other way is to who needs it more. Cit Council Meeting Febl~uary 8, 1988 - Page73 We TH hay mot )bviously need it more than they do. We're in the same position on [~1. Eden Prairie has a need to fix up TH 101 like we do because we more of oHr people that use it. Now you could say Waconia needs it than we do because they're farther out but in effect, they don't have the same kind of development incentives that we're looking for right now. To do the kind of things we're looking to do right now, we nee th~ Co~ fut fe~ Ma Col apf Re~ ap] on fa, Co Col me~ ad SU Ci ] it more than either Eden Prairie or Chaska. That's a perspective I ~k we need to look at. ~cilman Johnson: Unfortunately, I think this is the wave of the ute of cooperative financing of what in the past has been state and eral workings. or Hamilton: Intergovernmental cooperation. ncilman Horn: I think it's also interesting the method that Don has roved. olution %88-12: Councilman Horn moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to .rove the resolution authorizing $50,00~.~0 to accelerate the studies TH 5 that would be paid over a two year period of time. All voted in 'or and motion carried. ncilman Boyt: It comes out to about $6.50 per resident. I can't nk of a thing that we could spend $50,000.00 on that would be better. ncilman Johnson moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to adjourn the ting. All voted in favor and motion carried. The meeting was ourned at 11:50 p.m.. ~mitted by Don Ashworth Manager ~pared by Nann Opheim