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1984 04 02 I I I REGULAR CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL MEETING APRIL 2, 1984 Acting Mayor Geving called the meeting to order. Members Present Councilman Horn, and Councilwoman Watson Members Absent Councilwoman Swenson Mayor Hamilton came late Staff Present Don Ashworth APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilwoman Watson moved to approve the agenda as presented. Motion seconded by Councilman Horn. The following voted in favor: Acting Mayor Geving, Councilwoman Watson and Councilman Horn. No negative votes. Motion carried. RECONSIDERATION YEAR X COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT BLOCK GRANT FUNDS: Mr. and Mrs. George Steller, Southwest Suburban Senior Citizen Advisory Council members and Ben Withhart, Executive Director of Suburban Community Services were present. Don Ashworth - I received a call the first part of this past week from Minnetonka Community Schools noting that there had been a request from the senior citizens club to improve the Excelsior Community Center. I advised them to send a letter in to the City Council expressing what it was that was desired, etc. You have a copy of the letter that was received. I am still a little unclear as to what exactly it is that is being desired. Councilman Horn - Does it fit within the realm of this type of funds be used outside-the community? Don Ashworth - Yes, because monies that we receive are from the Hennepin County Block Grant Program. It's an entitlement program for literally all cities within Hennepin County. Of course, a majority of Chanhassen is not in Hennepin County but that is actually where our monies are coming from. If we did not have that portion in Hennepin County we would not qualify under this program. The monies can be allocated anywhere within the county. The entitlement goes to the City and so, in our case, they are treating Chanhassen as though it's totally within Hennepin County. We could spend the money anywhere within Chanhassen or basically within the area that the funds are being designated for. I am not quite sure the interpretation but I do know that Scott Martin did contact Mr. Blackstad and verified that these monies could be allocated. Ben Withhart - I am the Executive Director of Suburban Community Services. we-are a United Way funded agency that works with seniors throughout western Hennepin and parts of Carver and Wright Counties. We currently operate four senior citizens centers, all of them jointly with the local unit of government. We operate the Minnetonka Senior Center, the South Shore Center in Excelsior, the West Tonka Senior Center in Mound and the Delano area center in Delano. What we are here for tonight is to ask you for your consideration for setting aside $5,000 of the Community Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -2- Development Block Grant funds to be used in renovation of the South Shore Senior Center. That center is newly opened as of last fall. We are the agency that is operating the center. We have received a grant which we are matching for the staff and operation of the center. The school district, through the Community Services Department, is giving us free space in the old Excelsior High School on the corner of County Road 19 and Highway 7. That happens to be a big joint double classroom in the old part of the building and it's not a very desirable kind of space. We are approaching cities throughout the school district and asking them to also set aside amounts of money and in consultation with Larry Blackstad at Hennepin County that's where we arrived at the $5,000 figure. Our total that we are looking for is about $16,000 and what we want to do with those funds are to install a kitchen in the room where we can use to serve hot meals at the center and also do some other renovation if we have funds left over after we do the kitchen, such as installing carpeting and lowering the ceiling so that the room will be a little more conducive to the kind of activities that we want to carryon there. The reason that we want to install the kitchen is, we have, right now we are currently offering meals during the day and they are school district meals. They are not real desirable for senior citizens. We are selling them for $1.60 each. Most senior centers have what is called a congregate dining program available for them through Volunteers of America. It's a federal program. It's nationwide and the meals have special diets for people who are diabetics or low salt diets and it's a full meal. The idea being that good sound nutrition really helps people stay healthy and it's been a very proven program. In order to have that program available to us, three days a week is what we are desiring this next fall, we need to have a place where we can bring in the food and heat it to the proper temperature and this sort of thing. We have a com- mitment from Volunteers of America that they are willing to come in if we can put the kitchen together. If you are interested, I can tell you what we are asking other cities. The City of Shorewood already has committed $5,000. We are approaching Tonka Bay for $1,000. Joanne Kvern, Coordinator of the Center, is at Deephaven tonight asking for $3,000. She will be asking Greenwood for $500 and Excelsior has already said that they will give $1,500. We had done some preliminary work on getting estimates for the renovation. We had approached the McKnight Foundation for the renovation and so we have a pretty good idea on what it is going to cost. With me tonight are George and Esther Steller who are active in the center and are here and can talk about the center and any of its programs. George Steller - 1. To provide recreation and social activities. 2. To investigate and work toward developing a noon lunch program suitable for the older adult. 3. To provide health services and health education programs which would include flu shots, blood pressure screening, comprehensive yearly health screening program, health and safety lectures, health insurance information programs. 4. Develop opportunities for leadership and self-government which would include senior center advisory boards, taskforces aimed at specific center operations, for example, program taskforce, publicity taskforce. 5. Develop volunteer opportunities in the center and publicize community volunteer needs. 6. Work towards center participation in community events which would include a farmers market. I I I 7 . I 8. 9 . 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. I I Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -3- Develop and participate in intergenerational events which would include show and tell inviting school children to the center and grandparents day in the schools, story telling and demonstrations. Provide the children with an audience for some of their special events. Develop special interest groups using the expertise of the seniors to lead the groups. This would include the craft classes, card games, exercise groups, square dancing, travellogs. Work toward expanding the senior transportation program. To provide bi-weekly programs, one time events. Provide energy assistance at the center. Provide income tax assistance at the center. Provide recreational trips for the seniors. Register seniors for adult education programs. Develop a craft outlet store as a fund raiser for the center and income for the seniors. Acting Mayor Geving - How many people are in this senior citizens program? George Steller - It varies a great deal. I think the average for the first month, it was 13 a day, then it went up to 14 a day and now it's up to 15 a day average. Ben Withhart - That's five days a week and many days there would be many more people than that. Acting Mayor Geving - How many people from Chanhassen are in your activities? George Steller - Esther and I are in Chanhassen. There are quite a number of them come from Chanhassen especially the northern part of Chanhassen. Councilwoman Watson - Have you established any number that would be interested in this meal program? Ben Withhart - We are currently doing the meal program and most people do take part in that. Our experience in other centers is once we get the Volunteers of America program, that's really the heart of the center. People come for the meal and the socialization around the meal. We have not been real satisfied with pizza burgers and that sort of thing. A lot of people just have not come because of the meals. We are very satisfied with the progress of the center to date. We have to meet standards. We receive our funding through the Metropolitan Council for this center, our grant program. They have 13 mandated services we have to provide and daily dining is one of those. The transportation program is another. We have signed a contract with a local church in Excelsior where we get to use their van and we have recruited and trained drivers to drive the van. We also work with ICA interchurch association where we are using their volun- teers, reimbursing their mileage to take seniors to doctor appointments and shopping. Most of the activities that were listed, the tax assistance, fuel assistance, classes and things, have gone on at the center. Some of them we still need to work on, we are going to be working on the farmers market and some of those other things but from being opened in September with a half time staff, there has been a lot of progress that has gone on at the center. The center doesn't have membership. We do not have a mem- berShip there. There is a great number of senior citizen clubs in the area. We are trying to actively serve them all without being dominated by anyone group. Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -4- George Steller - The churches all have senior groups of their own and they all take part in this senior center. I Ben Withhart - The center is really meant to be what's called a focal point and I like to call that a super market of services for the elderly. A place in their community where they know that if they have a problem with taxes or whatever, that they can go there and if they can't get it they will know that somebody there can help them with it, plus a fun place to go. We are the manager of the center itself and we have been in business since 1952 in serving this area. We used to do youth programs here in Chanhassen. Since the early 70's we have phased out all our youth programs. Esther Steller - We can use the van only three days a week and those are the days that we have to plan the activities and some days we have as high as 60 people in there. Last week we had about 60 and afterwards there were about eight tables of cards. Councilman Horn - What portion of the school did you say you are now occupying? Ben Withhart - It's on the first floor of the old part of the high school. we-are on the western side of the building. The room is not environmen- tally very nice. Councilman Horn - Was there a lunchroom in the school facility? Ben Withhart - The new portion of the school is currently being used as an I elementary school and that's how we are able to, at the present time, we had to have a dining program in order to open the school. Volunteers of America couldn't come out because the kitchen was being used. They needed a kitchen so we set it up with the school district where they are preparing extra meals and we can sell them and they deliver them to the center. The question about block grant funds, the housing that you were referring to was,(Senior Citizen Apartment Building) I believe the land acquisition and development was done with block grant funds from South Shore communities. The actual construction was done through a different federal program by the community development corporation of the archdiocese. At our Delano Senior Center I was involved with transferring block grant funds from Independence to the City of Delano to renovate an old building for a senior center there. That was more complicated than I think we have here because we had to refund that back to Hennepin County, who then gave it to Wright County and then to the City of Delano but we have had good experience with doing that and the feeling there was that residents from that community did bene- fit. Seniors are one of the target populations for the block grant funds. Councilman Horn - Is there a lunch program with the senior citizens center in Chanhassen? Acting Mayor Geving - No, not as we know it. It's more of a bring your own type thing. Ben Withhart - The Chanhassen program is really what we call a club program which is quite different. It's a once a week gathering or twice a month usually. We are talking about a center where we have tax assistance and fuel assistance and blood pressure checking, a large number of services that go on there besides the card playing and having a good time. I I I I Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -5- Acting Mayor Geving - We can't make a commitment to you tonight. We will direct staff to look into this and we will meet again on the 16th of April and again on the 7th of May and I am hoping our staff will have something back to us possibly on the 16th. That would be the earliest that we could give you a response. I, personally, am going to come over and look at your center. Ben Withhart - We have asked the City of Excelsior and they have agreed to ~the fiscal agent. Acting Mayor Geving - Our staff can take this tonight and chances are Scott Martin will be calling on you and contacting these other cities as well. I am hoping that our city will have a response to you on the 16th but we will let you know. Councilman Horn - What is your agreement for the use of this facility? Is it a long-term agreement? Ben Withhart - We have an agreement with the school district that for ten years we can use that facility. We have not done any leasehold improve- ments in the facility yet and if that's part of it, usually block grant funds are ten year, that's kind of a federal rule of thumb. Councilman Horn - If this should revert back to a school building again, would there~any use for this facility or would it be totally torn out? Esther Steller - I don't think it would ever go back to a school again. It's in the old, old part. Acting Mayor Geving - I think the new building standards for schools would prohibit them from using it. Ben Withhart - I think it's permanent. The commitment by the Community Services Department and the School Board has been very strong. Councilwoman Watson - The whole building is a community center now. Don Ashworth - The amount that the City gets for community block grants is relatively minor and the Council did pick out some priority programs in terms of land acquisition and also loans to persons who were not able to carry out home improvements in any other way. We can look at reallocating those but I would like to get a closer handle on what it is exactly that you need. Are there other communities that you have yet to ask? Is this going to make or break whether Chanhassen comes up with the full $5,000? Ben Withhart - I guess we would take something less than that but being that we had an estimate on our remodeling and I have numbers on that if you want to see that. That totaled about $16,000. What we would do if we don't get all that, we would just scale back what we planned to do. At minimum we want to be able to meet the state health requirements for the kitchen. After that we are hoping to resurface part of the floor. We have got a terrible problem with a real echo in there and it's very hard when you get a large group of people for anybody to hear. We would like to lower the ceiling and take the blackboards off the walls and make it into a nice community space. Don Ashworth - You have no other cities that you are looking for money. Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -6- Ben Withhart - I believe the only city in the school district that is not being approached would be the City of Minnetonka. The City of Minnetonka does have its own senior center. We also manage that one in the Glen Lake area of Minnetonka and they have invested from the time that that center opened I know they have put in over $200,000 of block grant monies into that building. Don Ashworth - We will have a report back to the Council. I Acting Mayor Geving - This really comes as a surprise because we made our decision several weeks ago. Ben Withhart - We apologize for not being here at your public hearing on that. Councilman Horn - Could we also include what activities are going on in Chaska and some of the other communities around here? Acting Mayor Geving - We have a number of citizens on the south that could be going to Chaska Senior Citizens too. WORK SESSION, CARVER COUNTY ASSESSOR, CRAIG ZINTER: ACfTng Mayor Geving - We are happy that you could make it tonight, Craig. I know that you have started a new job and it's nice that you could fulfill these obligations to us. We didn't know exactly who would be here and we were thankful to hear that you would be here because this would give us some continuity in determining just what we are going to be faced with with I the board meetings. We really don't have any specific proposals and as you can see there aren't any taxpayers here as general public. We do have a Board of Equalization scheduled for June 7th and this is in preparation for that. We received a number of things in the Council packet and I guess that's one of the few times I can honestly say that I received some infor- mation that I never really saw before on some of the tables and some of the examples. In reading through Donis letter where he asked you for various things and his primary concern. I think, Don, that you had intended for tonight that this would be a rather open session and we would just ask questions and kind of get a feel from Craig as to how some of these appraisals are going to affect our community this year. As I understand this the City has been appraised, right? Craig Zinter - That is basically true although all the final book work and things are not done. The decisions have been made as to what the level, what changes are to be made, the mechanics of doing the multiplication and the data entry and that type of stuff is not done at this point. As you recall, Lana Larson has been the major appraisal staff person involved with the City of Chanhassen. She resigned effective the Friday prior to Christmas. That position has been vacant until today when the replacement was hired. The stuff was not done at the time that she left and there has been virtually nothing other than new construction looked at since that time in the City of Chanhassen so as far as to say could we give you an assessment list today, no, that would not be possible. The decisions as far as what is to happen were made prior to the first of the year, back in I October. That decision in general terms is that there would be no level change in value in the City of Chanhassen with the exception of those pro- perties that fell into the 25% mandatory revisit and we found that was some error or some lack of information on that piece of property. As an example if we were to find that there were 400 square feet that was in existance on I I I Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -7- that property that had not shown up in the appraisal record, that would indeed make a change in that persons value. By the same token, if the record in the past had shown an additional 400 feet, that would be recognized as well and that value in those situations would be reduced. The same thing is basically following true for all types of property county-wide. The market has been relatively flat with the exception of agricultural property on a county-wide basis and contrary to state-wide reports, this area has not been showing a decline in the agricultural pro- perty value, in the sale. That has been a matter that has been discussed in various levels and that is one of the situations where there is a lot of pressure at the State Legislature because of tax shifts and there are things that still could possibly be done for the 1984 taxes due and payable for the agricultural properties. Acting Mayor Geving - Are you saying that the State Legislators could take action in the next few days that would affect the 1983 taxes? Craig linter - 1983 assessment, payable 1984, that is correct. There is a Bill that is finding quite favorable position in the Legislature to require the recalculation of agricultural property taxes, the credit limits, various things like that and require that counties do send another tax sta- tement to those properties. That deals mainly with the agricultural school aid situation, rather than the value itself. Those are the kind of con- cerns that will bring people to the June 7th meeting and the July 12th meeting at the county is the fact that their 1983 payable tax was one number and it went up 60% for 1984 payable and they don't really have too much concern whether the market value changed or not. It's basically what comes out of their pocket and those concerns are being considered at the Legislative level. Donis letter talks about agricultural, lakeshore, resi- dential, those basically will be treated the same way with no particular change from last year to this year. As a result the anticipated increase in Chanhassen is going to be very minimal. Including new construction, the market value probably will not go up by more than 4%. Acting Mayor Geving - Let's go back to the second item, the lakeshore values in Chanhassen versus lakeshore values county-wide. You don't anti- cipate much of a change this year on lakeshore? Craig linter - No. We are seeing that Lotus Lake and we will get to some of the information in the packet that will indicate that but we are seeing that the lakeshore on Lotus Lake is probably the one that's the furtherest undervalued in relation to what the current market is seeing. We are running into maybe a little more pressure where we are right at market value on the Minnetonka stuff that's out along Highway 7. We don't know exactly what the rationale is but my anticipation is that the distance away from the downtown area is causing people to take a second look at living that far away even to get on the lake. On a county-wide basis we did not see any substantial shifts in the sale prices of property, lakeshore or non-lakeshore in those values although there were some minor indications that there should have been some changes, some slightly up and some slightly down. There was not enough indication that we made any changes. Don Ashworth - One of the continuous statements is that the property in Chanhassen, the lakeshore, etc., is higher than the rest of the county, I recognize that two equivalent homes may sell for different amounts in dif- ferent areas, but what I am wondering is, from a percentage standpoint does it appear as though that they are both the same like 95% here versus 95% somewhere else? Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -8- Craig Zinter - If you were to take Lake Waconia, for instance, and compare it to Lotus or Minnewashta, they are probably the two lakes in Chanhassen that would be similar, you will find that the recent sales on Waconia will I probably carry a higher percentage of ratio, it will be closer to 100% than what you will find on either Minnewashta or Lotus and yet the 1akeshore value on Lotus and Minnewashta is higher than it is on Waconia. The average Waconia 1akeshore value in the market is about $450 a front foot along the lake. The average on Minnewashta will probably run some place in the $700 to $750 range. About the same on Lotus but if you took all of the sales in the last 21 months, granted there are not an awful lot of them, but if you took all of them that were on that lake or on those three lakes and compared them you would find that Waconia would carry a higher ratio. It1s valued closer to it1s actual sale price than what the other two are. Councilman Horn - Your ratio then is market value to sale price. Craig Zinter - Yes. Assessed market value to the sale price. The measure- ment on Minnetonka has not been, there have not been enough transfers there that we could really even say that we have a good sample to look at. If the question is asked if the value is higher in Chanhassen by those terms than elsewhere in the county, it is true, the location tends to be the answer to that differential. Councilman Horn - Actually the assessed valuation has been at a lower ratio than actual market value. Craig Zinter - What it says is the market place is saying it is worth more than the assessor's value in this location than it is in Waconia. If you I are using the assessor1s market value as the guide, it's more undervalued here than out there. Don Ashworth - Do you feel as though there is an adequate base to prove some of those values, let's say the $1,000 value on Lotus Lake, one of the concerns I have had is that, are there enough sales, in other words the sales that did occur are people who wanted definitely to be at that loca- tion and they were willing to pay that price, my question would be, is that a sufficient number to actually prove in our own minds that the value is $1,000 a foot. If other owners were to sell and a number of them were to sell, would it stay at that $1,000 figure? Craig Zinter - The law of supply and demand is going to come into effect there. There is no question about it. If you take all of the houses in New Horizon and put them all in the marketplace at one time you are not going to get the same price as if only a few were on the market. The sample that is available on say Lotus Lake by itself does not make a substantial enough sample to really definitively say, yes, it's worth 'IX" amount per foot. The appraisals that are being made, not by my staff but by realtors in the marketplace, are taking comparable lakes as well. Some in Eden Prairie, Minnewashta, elsewhere in the vicinity and equating that also and there is where the true value is being arrived at in the marketplace and we are just trying to reflect it. We can only measure what's there and what is happening in that regard and a few of the proper- I ties that are in the packet are, I think, there are Lotus Lake, I am not sure I got any other lake but Lotus Lake in there, but as a point of indi- cation of how we arrive at what we are saying our level is and how we try and reflect that back through the assessment process. I I I Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -9- Councilman Horn - Are you referring to realtor asking price is or the actual sell~prices? Craig Zinter - They are both involved. We can only deal with what it actually sells for. Realtors, sometimes in their appraisal process, build in some give and take or they will build an appraisal based on other places asking prices. We don't have that option. We deal with history. Don Ashworth - So you are saying that like on Lotus, maybe there was only ten sales by the time you threw out highs and lows but you feel that those are still valid because you have taken other comparable lakes, Round Lake or other lakes in our area and all of those do all come in at about the $1,000 figure which reverifies that this should be at $1,000. Craig Zinter - In general terms that is correct. We review relations to value of land based on land where it is located and vacant land on some of these lakes is pretty hard to come by so then we can arrive at a structure value through cost analysis and through sales of improved property elsewhere. A house that is built on Lot 1, Pleasant View, for instance, and it's the same as the one that is built in Chanhassen Estates, the only difference between the two then would be location and so you can extract a land value through that process as well. Those things help to back up its relationship to the value that we have and as a property sells on Lotus Lake and we fit that together with an assessment, one sells on Minnewashta and one sells on Waconia, you take the commonalities of those various pro- perties that sold, if by coincidence you had all four lakes that had the same house, the same size lot, the only difference then would be the loca- tion which would be a land factor and you could probably run from a low of $400 a foot on the first hundred feet to $800 or $900 or $1,200 depending if it was on Minnetonka or wherever it might be located. Councilman Horn - I think one of the complaints that I heard was not so much comparrng-Lotus to Minnewashta and to Waconia as it was comparing the values along lakeshore property in general with those against non-lakeshore property as compared to the assessed valuation versus what a typical selling price is. Craig Zinter - You will find when you look at the marketplace, that your higher valued property that sells is generally lakeshore property. That's a statement that can get me into a lot of trouble but the majority of the time you will find that your higher priced property in the marketplace is lakeshore property. If you compare our sales analysis on a city-wide basis or a county-wide basis, as the sale prices get up into the $150,000, $175,000, to $200,000 range our ratio gets poorer and poorer. The proper- ties that are cookie cutter kind of things or pretty much homogeneous on the 90 by 120 foot lot in a plat, landlocked plat, our ratios there are quite tight in the low 90's and that happens in Chanhassen, in Chaska, in Waconia, wherever, but we are finding that the most volatile marketplace is the lakeshore area and by in large we have been further under the market price there but if you take the same house and move it off of the lake but where the land becomes the differential you will find the reason why. It's the land that they are buying. Acting Mayor Geving - Several years ago we saw a dramatic increase in lakeshore properties and they took a big increase within a matter of two years from maybe 65 to 95% and are we at that point now where we will not see any more substantial increases on our lakeshore homeowners? Are they there now at the 90 or 95% so that we can say, it was tough, it was a rough two years but we are there and we can expect now for it to level off. Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -10- Craig Zinter - The values are going to be, for the next year, are going to be constant. They have been since that 1982 appraisal so it will be three years in a row that the market values on that lakeshore has not changed. The land itself other than just very little minor things, we may have found that there was more marshy type shoreline or more better ground, $50 a foot or something like that or those properties where the house was reinspected and we found that there was an error. The values have been staying the same. You have probably received more complaints from the Lotus Lake area, the $200,000 house or anything above $135,000 probably, than you have from Chanhassen Estates or the houses that would be in the mid-$70,000 to $80,000 because, again, the Legislature played some numbers games with us and said that the higher valued properties tend to be the owners that can afford to pay more tax and so the burden got pushed up on them. The values didn't change. Don Ashworth - Craig is right, the number one complaint that we have received were from houses that saw the substantial incrases. It becomes a multiple type of effect. If they at one time were paying $2,200 or $2,400 a year in taxes as a lakeshore parcel in comparison to off-lake, it wasn't that bad but then they almost doubled through the re-evaluation they went into taxes of like $4,400. That's after the homestead credit so their actual tax is $5,000. This past year the City was the biggest portion of the tax increase. In all you saw about an 18/19 percent property tax increase of which the City was in at about 8/9/10 percent of that. You take that same owner who had a bill of $2,200 and it went to $4,400, he thought, I am done and all of a sudden he got this years property tax bill which was another $1,000 so he went from $4,400 to $5,400. That's where we have got the largest number of calls. The people who were at an average bill of $1,500 a year in taxes that saw no increase two years ago, now they get that 20% increase and it does mean $300 so now they are going to $1,800. They are not happy with it but it's now the human cry that you have with those that at one point in time were paying $2,200 and now are paying $5,400. Acting Mayor Geving - Based on the phone calls that your office has received, the non-lakeshore homeowners, the lakeshore homeowners and agri- cultural, where are you getting the most amount of your calls? I I Don Ashworth - Lakeshore. Lotus Lake and Minnewashta are still the predo- minant phone calls coming in. Acting Mayor Geving - Are they the same people that we have seen in pre- vious years? Don Ashworth - No. Most of them, they are apologetic in that they hadn't been keeping track of what was going on and now the bank has notified them of what their payments are and they have gone in and started to check and all of a sudden they have found that it was $2,200 two years ago and now it's $5,400. Some of them there may even be other factors in there, a spouse died, a party moved out of town, and in each of those cases they lost homestead credit as well so now it's $6,000. Acting Mayor Geving - I am just trying to anticipate the kind of questions I and type of person that we might see on the 7th of June. Of all of the people that protested last year, how many of those people did get relief? Are we going to be seeing those same people who last year protested through the process and who may be back again this year? Those were mostly agri- cultural people and people along Minnewashta Parkway on the western border of Chanhassen. I I I Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -11- Craig Zinter - The response to city changes at the county level was mixed. Anything that was residential in nature was left as the City adjusted them. The other part of it, the ag properties, the County Board found fit to realign those with the rest of the ag property county-wide, with a couple of exceptions. They put those back to where they were basically $2,200 an acre or whatever it averaged to be. Some of those filed in tax court, Earl Holasek, Merle Volk, those have been settled with virtually no change through the tax court situation. Those values were upheld. Two weeks ago we had heard the case for Keith Bartz. They did not have an appraisal and I am quite confident that both our value and classification will be upheld by the tax court in that situation. The Bernardy Brothers, Chaska Investment, have petitioned on some place in excess of 2,500 acres in Chaska and Chanhassen. They are an independent fee appraisal firm that has been hired to review our values on that and to this point our values look very safe. That's not to say that those people might not still be coming back and not happy, the fact of the matter is that their property is worth what we have got it valued at or more. We had 14 court cases filed in the Red Cedar Point area out there. They attorney, upon retaining an appraiser to take a look at our values compared to what the marketplace had on that, withdrew. He said, "I can't in good conscience take your money and repre- sent you because we don't have a case." Erik Dundurs decided to go into court on his own and I have got the reappraisal that I made on that pro- perty came up at $86,000, we had it on at $77,100 and the judge upheld the value. The one that is still pending is the Ziegler property. The appraiser that was hired to review that came in and said "I can't argue with your numbers. In fact I couldn't go on the stand and say that that property is over valued." That still has not been settled yet. Reference back to the residential properties, we went back over everything that was adjusted at the City level, adjusted at the State level, we do this annually to find out if we missed something, if in the wisdom of the adjustment that, the Gullickson property on Christmas Lake for instance was reduced, if that reduction was proper then maybe the properties on either side or all the way along the lake should be reduced accordingly. We go back to the marketplace and try to verify that. We found that in comparison with Hennepin County and with the rest of the values on the lake that we were more comfortable with the value that we had established so those values were re-adjusted to where they were a year ago based on an equitabi- lity situation more than anything else. We reviewed like I say, with the Hennepin County side, that lake is pretty much homogeneous all the way around as far as lakeshore quality. The difference then becomes the house. Acting Mayor Geving - Let me ask you this, based on your experience, Craig, you have been through this many times, is there something that the City of Chanhassen can do as a Board of Equalization that we can get our act together and present a stronger case to the County. Is there some techniques that we are missing? Craig Zinter - I think the one thing tonight is a step in the right direc- tion. The thing, I believe and it happens with Chaska, for instance, they have the same kind of value problems as far as they have got some high values and mix. . They don't have quite the lake homes that Chanhassen does but they try very hard to maintain the order of the meeting for the review to talk strictly about the value of that property and where the concern is with that property. Acting Mayor Geving - You are saying that the Board of Equalization meeting is more highly controlled than we have had in the past and we speak about a Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -12- specific piece of property rather throwing it open to the general public to more or less lay their problem on the table and then we talk about it for a minute and then go on to the next one. Craig Zinter - That's correct. Councilwoman Watson - We discuss all of Christmas Lake lakeshore instead of individual pieces of it. I Councilman Horn - The problem that I have had sitting up here is that I have never really had the kind of data that I am seeing here tonight. I have never really been comfortable with the ratios. If I could feel com- fortable and the ratios were consistent for like kinds of property between Chanhassen, Waconia, Chaska, all parts of the County, that the ratios were consistent in all types of property, agricultural, commercial, residential, I wouldn't have a problem with that because I know it would be a simple matter of taking market value times mill rate to get our base. The thing that I have had trouble with is we just have never had any guidelines in the past to know whether these were fair or not. Tonight we are seeing some of those and I have got a lot of questions about categories and things and I think negotiable points might be at our meeting when a property comes up if we know what the grade of that property is but I think with this kind of table and understanding these kinds of things we can come up with the same kind of numbers that you came up with or see if they make sense to us. We might argue a grade or two but that should be all that have to deal with. Acting Mayor Geving - I want to reiterate a point that Craig made and his I suggestion was at the equalization meeting that we deal specifically with one property owner's problem at a time. A very orderly process rather than looking at all of Lotus Lake in general. Maybe we can take a look at that in June as a step in the right direction. In your opinion, you are not the County Assessor any longer, but you have a lot of experience, what value would there be of Chanhassen having its own assessor to give a more equal look at all the properties within Chanhassen? Craig Zinter - The only value that I can see from that prospect would be if the City were able to make the job attractive enough that we didn't con- tinue to have the changeover that Carver County has experienced in the last four years with the people that are representing the City of Chanhassen. I was in the process of re-organizing the staff to, what I think would help to eliminate that problem, what I see as a part of that situation is the assignment of one individual to Chanhassen, to Chaska, however you do it and you get that person packing his bag and trucking on down the road, everything that has been reviewed in that time frame goes with them. Acting Mayor Geving - That's why I asked that question because we worked with Lana and we worked with Margaret Julius for years and years and all of a sudden they are gone and then we start allover again. Craig Zinter - That's a real concern and it's one of the things that I tried to get into place, the long term employees in the assessment staff do I not look to that as being very advantageous because they don't like to come from Hamburg and have to work in Chanhassen or Chaska as well. Those are some of the drawbacks of the situation but that would help. If Chanhassen feels strong enough about it and is willing to pay the kind of salary $25,000/$27,000 that it's going to take to get somebody to coordinate that I I I Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -13- effort then you have got something going for you but even at that rate, Eden Prairie has just had a changeover in staff and they are hiring another appraiser. In fact they just hired away another one of the staff in Carver County. It's a situation that you are never going to guarantee a long term situation in the assessment field unless there is real good support from the ruling authority, either the Council if you hire locally or the County Board if it's on a county-wide basis. There has got to be some kind of a backing given at that level in order to sustain the efforts of the indivi- dual that is out there taking the front line beating. It's not a pleasant task. The assessor gets characterized as being the villian and he can do no good. It's a job that is not liked. People do not welcome the assessor at the door with open arms but it is a necessary evil if everyone of these governments are going to continue to survive. Acting Mayor Geving - I feel, as a board member, somewhat frustrated because whatever decisions we make, it seems like they are only recommen- dations to the County Board and it's rather frustrating each year to meet one night and decide the tax fate for 150 or so individuals who come before us and we are not really well prepared. It seems like we never see the process all the way through. We have a chance to adjust the valuation 1%, I never know quite where we are on that. It's a frustrating process for me. Councilman Horn - I think the frustration is our name as Board of Equalizatio~If we don't understand the ground rules that have gone into the process to determine that assessed evaluation, we can't do our job. There is nothing we can do when we sit on that board if we don't understand that process. We really have never had the data to be able to go through and say, well, you have got this, this, and this, this is what your assessed valuation should be and that's the problem I have had sitting up here. We are just shooting in the dark without that kind of information. Acting Mayor Geving - This is what has happened in the past, on the night that we meet we usually received a whole lot of information, I mean a stack that is three or four inches thick, there probably 300 or 400 pages of information in front of us and there could be 100 cases in front of us and we have got it for the very first time. We show up here at the board and all of a sudden we have 100 cases to deal with and those 100 people are sitting out there some where and they want to be heard and they want to have a fair hearing and for some reason the county doesn't give us enough time to go through the data before the meeting. I am talking about the process from the county standpoint, why we can't get that data quicker so that we can have a week or two to review it, analyze it, and maybe even have a short sleeve work session to go over some of this before we actually meet the public. Craig linter - Don and I talked last year about having a similar type meeting and it never did take place. The situation, when you have a June 7th meeting for instance and you have got 20 days to complete action and in the last couple of years there has been a lot of concern and a lot of pro- perties that have to be visited or some response that has to be made. In the reaction in the City of Chanhassen, nothing was resolved the first night. Every property was there. There were no questions that were answered. Where this has been different in Chaska or some of the other communities, there are a number of those that given a little time, a chance to review the property or to explain why it's valued as it is, in some cases some of the properties that we were reviewing last year had been Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -14- purchased six months prior to it for $20,000 more than it was valued at and yet we are spending time upon time going back and running copies of field cards, running back to the property and so on. That pile could be shrunk down quite substantially with a little more orderly meeting, with a little I more time to react to John Q. Public when he is there and he is satisfied when he goes home or at least he understands when he goes home. Then you come back two weeks later and you probably have got 25 or 30 that need some response in comparables, in re-appraisal or whatever, then you can manage it. We can manage it on a time basis in the two weeks that we have got to be able to make those appraisals and get them back to you so that you can review them for two to three days but when you are dealing with 150 proper- ties and to get one person to go out and rap on those doors and catch those people home and make night calls and then make a written response, that's expecting an awful lot in two weeks time. I am not throwing the blame at the City Council. Acting Mayor Geving - I guess what I was appealing for in the process is more time for us and more data. Craig Zinter - Theoretically, the process at the local board of equaliza- tion, the local board sits down and reviews each property card, well, is that logically feasible with the City of Chanhassen when you have got 3,000 plus parcels and are each of you going to be familiar enough to look at a card, a description, and say, yes, that's right. We are getting out of the realm of reason in that situation. Councilman Horn - I don't think we have to say that that's right. I think all we needtOdois to be able to say that based on each of these check list of things, that's what each of those is worth and that's how your total evaluation is arrived at. I Craig Zinter - I think what I am hearing you say is that you are getting a little bit more into the gist of each appraisal then is really possible for a board of review. Councilman Horn - My big concern has been that these ratios are not con- sistent and-r-am probably more concerned about that than I am about each individual property and that's something that is really out of our realm of doing anything about. That's the frustration we have got at this level. Craig Zinter - It's improved a lot in the last three plus years as far as the consistency of ratios. They are not perfect by any means yet, but to take a step back to the equalization process ideally the envisionment that I would take of the Board of Equalization and the City Council doing would be rather really getting to the grade of this house and that one as I would appeal my value to you, you would ask me, okay, there is a house out there in your neighborhood that you feel that you are equal to or very similar to, who is it or which one is it, or you might know one or one of the board members might know one, my house and one down the street that's somewhat similar. Then pull the value on that one and say, mine was $75,000 and that one is at $74,800, I don't think you have got a problem. That pretty well gives that individual, me, as an appellant a sense that I am being I treated the same as my neighbor anyway. If I pull that one out and that one is at $62,500 then the flag goes up and we say, well, then try one more and see which one of those two is wrong or Councilwoman Watson - The person at $62,500 may not be thrilled. I I I Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -15- Craig Zinter - That's true but if you read the equalization statute that's the primary concern that you bring the low one up to the level of the rest but we have taken that in its reverse and looking for the one that we can bring down because it's a lot more acceptable. Councilwoman Watson - Last year my difficulty, I didn't see as many people trying to compare whether they have a fireplace and how much they were assessed with those various things, land values seemed to be a real problem. People are willing to accept that their house is going to be somewhat different than everybody elses. They are all different and they all have different things to them. It was land value. They want to com- pare themselves to Cologne and to Norwood/Young America and they want to be seen that their agricultural property which is being tilled is the same as the farmer out in Cologne. They want to feel that they are being treated as farmers and people in the agricultural business and that, I think, is more of a problem than buildings. Craig Zinter - True. That problem, if they ligitimately feel that they have a problem with that, belongs at the county level. We are out of our realm in Chanhassen to be talking about Cologne or Norwood or Young America. Councilwoman Watson - But I think that was a lot of what we heard last time was agricultural property and people tried to feel that they were under Green Acres or not in Green Acres Program that they could go to Cologne or one of the western parts of the county and see that agricultural property like theirs was being assessed at the same value. They seemed to feel that because they were in the eastern part of the county that their property value was higher. I am farming it and it's the same and I want to be treated, it was more that and there isn't much we can do about that but that is a lot of what we hear about. Craig Zinter - We are getting back into a legislative situation with the dictates of according to value, the market value system. A piece of pro- perty, ten acres of ground down 101 or out on 17 is going to sell for more than ten acres is going to sellout on Highway 33 in Young America Township. It may produce less corn here but when you put it on the marketplace to sell the property you are talking a different use probably or the anticipation of that. That's where the Green Acres comes in and the taxable value, if they can qualify, is comparable for that same use here. Councilman Horn - But we have to go on Green Acres here and they don't which is a real penalty if you ever go to sell your property at a later point because then you have to pay it back. Craig Zinter - You have got a three year penalty situation but the flip side of that is, is it fair to you as a residential homeowner that if your house sells for $90,000 and it's on at $85,000 and Joe down the road has got 100 acres of farm ground that would sell for $3,000 an acre and we value it for tax purposes at $1,500 because that's what it's being valued at in Renville County. We don't have to stop at Norwood. We can go to Pennington County or wherever and the land values vary dramatically. We are trying to reflect the market in the location. The fact that legisla- tion has created the freedom for them to apply for the Green Acres and to give themselves that relief as long as they can qualify, they really are getting a benefit out of it rather than a penalty. Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -16- Councilman Horn - But then what they ought to do is to establish Green Acre areas. In other words, just as we have the tiers from the central metro area, they ought to have tiers where the Green Acre applies and all of a sudden it breaks off and you don't have to qualify for it because the I assumption naturally is that the person closer to the downtown areas is going to have development of the property which isn't always the case. Craig Zinter - That's true and it happens in Chanhassen. There are areas that are nonbuildable by zoning or by whatever. There is no Green Acres necessary on that because the highest and best use is going to be that pasture ground or that minimal tillable that it's being used at. That's not a problem. The stuff and as you get further west we run out of the phase in the county whether it has to qualify for Green Acres. That has been the big concern of the people like Al Klingelhutz and Wallace Otto and some of those that they have to apply here to get the same rates as out west. That's part of the tax law. It's a decision that was made by higher authorities than myself or the City Council if the law is to be interpreted and used in the way that it has been passed. Acting Mayor Geving - Let's swing on over to some of the materials that Craig put together for us tonight. Maybe you could walk us through some of this information. Councilman Horn - I think it's important for us when we sit up here, not to look so muc~ what increased or changed in tax or the value that it is from one year to the next but what the consistence is between that and surrounding properties. One of the things that we consistently get hung up on is when somebody says my tax raised from this amount to this amount. As I long as it is consistent with other properties in that area, that should be our concern. Craig Zinter - That is correct. I salute you for that observation. As long as the assessment staff keeps consistent you are not going to have the pain of the 1982 assessment reappear and our values from the 1982 assessment have been upheld through the courts so I don't think as a general rule we were inconsistent or incorrect in what went on. Acting Mayor Geving - Most people didn't realize that they were undervalued for so long and they were really getting a bargain. Now it's going to level off. Craig Zinter - The page that you have there labeled "Sales Ratio Summary" this is just a county-wide, by class, situation. It shows where we are at. The 1982 on the top of the column there is those properties that sold in 1982 as compared to the value that was placed for the 1982 assessment. The 266 residential sales county-wide were appraised at 87.6% of what they sold for. That's what that tells us. In 1983 there were 273 appraised at 87.4%. Each of those classes you will see the residential duplex, two pro- perties, not really a significant sample. It's there to show what's hap- pening. Ag lands, the under 40 acre tracts, a grand total for the county of 15 sales 76.3%. The majority of those are in the eastern part of the county by the way. The 40 acres and larger, which is deemed as a true farm according to the state sales ratio study, is 79.3%. Still low. Councilman Horn - Why does that drop from 1982 to 1983, I thought the attempt was~get those closer. I I I I Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -17- Craig Zinter - What's happening is you are comparing the 1983 assessment to 1982 sales and 1983 assessment to 1983 sales and as a result you will see that if the assessment was done equitably in both years that the market went up approximately 4% and that has been the significant disagreement between the County Board and myself that those properties are already over- valued is what they are telling me and the numbers say that that is not happening. The commercial/industrial, it shows 79% ratio on the 21 months, that ratio, I believe, is not a true indication of the worth of the com- merical property. There had not been enough time available to pick out the going franchise, the equipment in some of those properties that's sold so that ratio is distorted. It should be higher than that if that kind of an operation were able to be done. The bottom part of the sheet just shows the breakdown of where the value is in Carver County. The 1983 assessment, 35% agricultural, 65% non-ago The 1982 assessment was 32% versus 67%. By that, you can tell we did raise the ag property more than the residential from the 1982 to 1983 but according to this analysis there is still a ways that has to go. The back side of that page shows the breakdown of where the sales were. This is just residential because the rest of the classes get so few sales you don't really get a good reflection on an individual jurisdiction. You will note that the City of Chanhassen at 87!, basically the same as the average of the county. Chaska just 1% higher. There are some inconsistencies and some things that are being looked at in relation to what that analysis shows. Hamburg we have been running very close to market value. We have seen that because of the distance that those two communities are from a main thoroughfare and with the price of gas that they are no longer the bedroom community for Minneapolis that they were in the mid-1970's. Acting Mayor Geving - What's the difference then in Carver, for example, versus Chaska? Then you look at Hamburg which is further out and it's up at 94%? Councilwoman Watson - That's just that they are selling close to what they are assessed at. Craig Zinter - Carver is a community that continues to generate interest because of its historic nature for one thing. To justify some of the values that are paid on some of those Chaska Brick homes, down in the floodplain, is tough. We are trying to equate with what's happening out there and it's a different set of circumstances. They are small lots. There is no city sewer and water and yet some of those older houses that are 600/700 square feet are selling for $60,000 and $70,000 and you can go out and replace one today for less. Acting Mayor Geving - What affect does the tax delinquencies have on this whole process? We have a lot of tax delinquent land, especially in the New Horizon area. Craig Zinter - The fact that the tax is delinquent does not affect the assessment. It does not until it goes tax forfeit. If affects the amount of money that the City and the County has to spend but it does not affect the assessment process. Councilman Horn - Are these all calculated manually based on all this information~ Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -18- Craig Zinter - The valuations of each property is calculated manually, yes. It's possible to put this on the computer but we still have not been able to convince the five people that are in control of the budget in the County that it's acceptable. One of the other problems, of course, is that all of the data that we have is not at this point decent enough that you would want to do it that way. The three years that I have been stressing the accurate information, we are getting a lot closer. That's one of the things that I will be working on in my new job is the generation of a mass appraisal system. There is a series of field cards here. I took the Keith Bartz property and the Erik Dundurs property because those two filed in court and the review appraisal of the Bartz property was reduced at the City Council level to $151,700. The top two lines there showed the ag value at $181,000 and $33,700 on the commercial portion of that at the time that the assessment was made. There was a change in wetland law that required the adjustment to the $183,600 and $33,700. Then that was adjusted by City Council action to $115,400 on the ag and $33,700 on the commercial. The County failed to adjust this one on an independent basis. The State did not adjust it on an independent basis but it did get affected by the 5% blanket ag land increase that was generated so the total ag value for the 1984 payables becomes $118,000 on the ag and $33,700 on the commer- cial. That is basically the same as what the Green Acre figure had been originally. The prior years value was contested in court. The review appraisal came up with $235,000 on this property. I am confident that will be upheld. The 1984 value is the bottom one there and that will come in at $202,900. That's lower than the review appraisal at the court level. The County Board, in one of their motions, decided to freeze all ag values so that does not allow us the option of going picking up this one without reviewing the whole host of them. My contention was that there needed to be an increase, not only in the Keith Bartz property, but all ag properties county-wide. Just because we have done a review appraisal on this one that says it's worth $235,000 does not give me clear conscience to be able to go back to this one and say we are going to boost it up a few more thousand dollars. Councilman Horn - You said the County voted to freeze all ag property only. Craig Zinter - I had gone to them with a recommendation showing that infor- mation where we are at as far as ratios and that to reach the normal level we would expect on a state level there would have been a need for an increase. My recommendation was not to change anything in residential because I thought we were at a level that was acceptable there. Their motion directed only to the ag value not to change those. Basically leaving all classes of property as they were for the 1983 assessment. Acting Mayor Geving - Do you have any other forms that you want to take us through? Craig Zinter - The next one is just the Erik Dundurs property. That's the same thing that I mentioned before with the review appraisal. The rest of them, the field cards that are there are sales of properties that have sold within the last year or so and I just wanted to show that the relationship to our market to what that sale price was. Acting Mayor Geving - Take us through the Robert Shogren one. Craig Zinter - This is a property in Chanhassen Estates. It says that in February 1983 it sold for $110,000. You will note that the 1984 market I I I I I I Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -19- value, after that property was re-appraised is at $102,200. It probably is a little bit above the average of the City but you don't come up with everything on the same level when you are doing a mass appraisal situation. It does show that at least it is not valued at more than what he paid for it. Acting Mayor Geving - There is another one in Chanhassen Estates, $113,000. Craig Zinter - They are selling pretty constant or those two did and our appraised market value is basically the same relationship. Those two were very close to market value. You go to the next one, it happens to be Pleasant View Rearrangement on Lotus Lake, sold in August 1983 for $165,000 and we are on at $147,100. That's where the comments get generated that the lakeshore is valued at less than what the non-lakeshore is in relation to what it sells for but in terms of the total value it is not. The next one is Steve Hemping's. That one is in there because in May of 1982 he paid $85,000 for the 100 feet of lakeshore. We are carrying $650 on it because that's what we say the quality of that lot is in relation to what you have got on the rest of Lotus Lake. So that if we were to boost this one to $850 there would be a lot of other ones that would also have to be reflected with that same number and I don't think we want to do that at this point. Councilman Horn - The building there is $175,000. Craig Zinter - That's what the building permit value was. He bought the land and is putting a house on it. His estimate of what his house was going to cost him was $175,000. This is in Pleasant View. The Lotus Lake Estates situation with that rim lot, the marketplace in fact the appraisals for all those properties that are for sale out there are reflecting that more as non-lakeshore. They were never appraised as having lakeshore. They were adjusted off of the lakeshore rights situation by those that had the lake view or fronted onto the lake lot were reduced 15% from if they had had rights all the way down to the lake and then those on the inside were valued based on what the market was saying. We are finding now that the people that are trying to sell now are not being able to get back out of those houses what they put into them. That situation of not having lake access is catching up to them or something is. My anticipation is that it's the lake access situation and that is one of the things that is under review this year. One'of those houses in there sold two years ago for $171,000 and they sold it now for $147,000. The first sheets now that are the grids, the very first sheet there the top that says 1I0ne Story With Basementll that would be your normal rambler home, something that you would quite normally find these days being built. The grade across the top is our relationship to quality of the home and there are a whole host of fac- tors that become involved there and determining that winds up being a lot of judgment and experience on that situation. The normal house that's being built today, if you went to a lumber yard or a contractor and said I want 1,200 square feet of just average construction you are going to find it falling basically under a 7. This is just quality of construction. What the house has got in it. If it's all board on board walls, teakwood or walnut or something like that you are going to push it off to the right end. If it's something that just barely meets code you are going to be down on a 5 or 5i. There are houses in existance allover the county, all over the state that would falloff the bottom end of this thing that are not up to code. It may not have any insulation. It may not have any Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -20- plumbing in it. Those are judgment calls. The appraiser has got to be able to justify the value that comes back on the bottom end of that value card. Councilman Horn - When we get these pieces of information about the valuation, rs-this grade spelled out? Craig Zinter - If you go back to those properties that sold, it gives a grade. The factors of adjustment, not all houses come with a basement, not all houses are single story, other things, air conditioning adds to value, brick veneer adds to value, finished basement adds to value, and then as you start going through page by page you get to story and a quarter, story and a half, story and three-quarters, two story, the various styles of homes. Acting Mayor Geving - Let's go to the section where you have basements finished, fireplaces, that page and how much judgment is there between, on a fireplace, for example, or a basement finished, someones judgment whether it1s fair or average or good or excellent? Craig Zinter - Those will generally relate to the quality of the home. You are not going to find a D5 home with an excellent finished basement nor- mally. The D5 is the bottom grade. The IIDII represents, back in the early 1970ls when I started out the IIDII represented wood frame construction. A IICII represented concrete block or brick. Basement finished, for instance, the quality, fair, average, good, excellent, will be dictated to some extent by the number of rooms. If you take a basement and you finish it. Take half the basement and you have got one big rec. room down there, you might have a floor covering and one wall paneled and the rest of it painted, you are not calling that excellent basement finish but the same area that may be divided up into three bedrooms with closets and a bathroom would come up probably in the average to good depending on what quality of home it was initially in and also if the basement if a walkout basement it tends to lend itself in general terms, you will find better quality finish down there because they generally spend more time using that. Last year, if you recall, we sent post cards for valuation notices, basically just the value of the house and the date and time of the meeting. I wasn1t happy with that and it was the first time that I had tried them and we are going back to a full length letter. One of the phrases in there is that, it tells them to get in contact with the office if they have a question about it prior to just walking in here and showing up for the meeting. Maybe some of the incidental questions can be handled that way. If there is a math error or something like that, those things can be cleaned up without taking up the time of those people that legitimately have a question that needs to come before the Board of Review. There is no manual that can be devised in a manual system like this where you are going to be able to list everything that's there so there gets to be a lot of judgment that becomes involved. The main thing is that bottom line when you get done adding up all the pluses and minuses and it comes up $200,000, is it worth $200,000. Councilman Horn - Do you have any guidelines for grades that we can look at? - Craig Zinter - I don't have any with. There really is no set, you can look at a house and you can tell whether it's a 7 or a 6 but to sit down and tell you what constitutes a 7 is one of these very tough things to do. I I I I I I Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -21- Councilman Horn - If I took 17 assessors and had them look at a house, would they ~agree that that's a 7 or a 6? Craig Zinter - A 7 or a 6, yes. There may be some difference, it may not be a 7, it may be a 7! or a 6!, very seldom will you see a complete grade differential. The ones that you will find the half grade step on are generally older properties that have been remodeled. They become a little tougher to settle on a number and by the same token the guy that goes with the 7! in that situation may likely increase the depreciation. Councilwoman Watson - When you get right down to the bottom line it's kind of an arbitrary decision. iraig Zinter - Right but when you are talking about property that is worth 200,000, $1,200 on that is pretty inconsequential. Mayor Hamilton came at this point in the meeting. Acting Mayor Geving - We certainly appreciate your coming out tonight and thank you very much for helping us along. What is the next thing that hap- pens between now and June 7th? Will we be getting any other information? Craig Zinter - It is highly unlikely, I would guess. With the transition in the office it's going to be tough. I think they are going to have their hands full getting the valuations together and getting the notices out. CABLE TV FRANCHISE ORDINANCE: Mayor Hamilton - This is the first and second reading. We were all sent a copy of the agreement that was drawn up by Mr. Creighton who is here this evening. Also, Dick Joyce of Dow-Sat is here to answer any questions. I thought it was a good agreement. Councilman Geving - I do have a questions and it relates to the basic agre- ment, when we talked earlier we suggested that there would be no rate increase for two years, could you explain Barb (Orlowsky) where that nego- tiation took us? I see here that this is limited to one year. Barb Orlowsky - We had originally asked for two years. They came back and said no, they couldn't do it. One of the reasons why we recommended Dowden was because they said one year after the system is up and running. Some of the others said one year or two years or 18 months after they grant the franchise which means that they could conceivably finish construction and you could get a hike, even before anybody got service. We felt that they were honest in stating that they couldn't give it for two years but the system will run for one full year before there is an increase. Councilman Geving - I notice that this is franchise agreement with the City for a 15 year period, is this normal, is this a common type of an arrangement? Barb Orlowsky - Yes. Tom Creighton - I think you should mention the map because if they are adopting this final, there is still a map that is coming. Don Ashworth - I wanted to see a clearer map as to areas that would be ser- viced as well as underground versus overhead so there would be no question Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -22- and Dow-Sat has agreed to furnish that. That would be a part of this docu- ment. Dick Joyce - It's a chicken and egg situation. First they have to strand I map-the whole area and then they actually go in and design it which is the architectural plan where they put every pole and every house and everything in the design and they don't usually expend that kind of money to do that kind of plan until they have a franchise and so it was which came first, the franchise or the design but as soon as the design map is completed, they still have to apply to the City for permits for any of the construc- tion. The City has the option to not approve the design if it is not acceptable to the City Manager's office so that will be attached to the ordinance as soon as it's done. It's just not done yet. We have a preli- minary understanding where the initial service area is but it's not in final exact format. Your City Attorney has also reviewed this. Don Ashworth - The recommendation before you is for approval of the franchise agreement as presented subject to the two modifications recom- mended by the City Attorney and that would also include the inclusion of the map which has just been discussed here this evening. Councilman Horn moved to dispense with the second reading of the Cable TV Franchise Ordinance. Motion seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwoman Watson, Councilmen Geving and Horn. No negative votes. Motion carried. Councilman Geving moved to approve the Cable TV Franchise Ordinance with amendments as outlined by the City Attorney as well as the inclusion of the I map. Motion seconded by Councilwoman Watson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwoman Watson, Councilmen Geving and Horn. No negative votes. Motion carried. Mayor Hamilton - When are you planning on starting? Dick Joyce - We had hoped to apply for, what we call, the Certificate of Confirmation at the May meeting of the State Cable Board. That is the last step. We are a legal entity in Chanhassen when the State Cable Board issues a Certificate of Confirmation. There has to be a 27 day waiting period between when the Council okays it and the Cable Board issues the certificate. We will start building right away because that will be the summertime and that's when we will be doing a lot of construction in the whole area. Lake Minnetonka, their meeting is on Wednesday. Final appro- val should come on Wednesday. Wayzata's came last month. Mayor Hamilton - Could we expect to have some people connected in Chanhassen by this fall? Dick Joyce - Yes. I would think a lot of the system would be pretty much goTng by the end of the year. Thomas Creighton - Don't make any promises. I wouldn't promise anybody or I put in the press that they can all sign up for cable this fall because experience has said that, part of the system is going to be run out of the Shorewood head end and that would depend if there is any snags in Lake Minnetonka's franchise. You never know. Experience has shown us to be cautious on construction schedules with cable companies. I I I Council Meeting April 2, 1984 -23- Dick Joyce - Our plans are to move ahead very very rapidly. We would like to get it in obviously before the cold months because that's all down time as far as construction is concerned. MINUTES: Councilwoman Watson moved to approve the March 19, 1984, Council minutes. Motion seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwoman Watson, Councilmen Geving and Horn. No negative votes. Motion carried. Councilwoman Watson moved to note the March 28, 1984, Public Safety Commission minutes. Motion seconded by Councilman Horn. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwoman Watson, Councilmen Geving and Horn. No negative votes. Motion carried. Councilwoman Watson moved to adjourn. Motion seconded by Councilman Horn. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwoman Watson, Councilmen Geving and Horn. No negative votes. Motion carried. Don Ashworth City Manager