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1984 07 23 I I I REX;UIAR CHANHASSEN CITY CO~IL MEETING JUIii 23, 1984 Mayor Hamilton called the m=eting to order. 'll1e m=eting was opened wi th the Pledge to the Flag. Mernl::Ers Present Councilnan Horn, Councilwanan Watson, Councilwanan Swenson Councilnan Geving staff Present Don Ashworth, Bill MJnk, Scott Martin Roger Knutson APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilwanan SWenson roved to approve the agenda as as pre- sented. MJtion seconded by Councilwanan Watson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwanen Watson and SWenson, Counci1rren Geving and Horn. No negative votes. MJtion carried. VISI'IOR PRESENTATIONS: RESCUE 'IROCK: Dick Wing thanked the Council for their support in the purchase of the new rescue truck. SONS OF THE AMERICAN L&;ION SOFTBALL 'IOURNAMENT: Tan Klingelhutz, Legion Carmander, stated that the Legion would agree to roving the tournament to September 7-9, supply additional satellites and pay a fee for use of the fields. Councilnan Geving roved to waive the Council Rules of Procedure and accept the Sons of the Arrerican Legion Softball 'lburnament for the dates of September 7-9 with no park fee. However, $200 to be donated by the Sons of the Arrerican Legion for the use of the fields and additional satellites will be provided by the Sons of the Arrerican Legion. M::>tion seconded by Councilnan Horn. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwanen Watson and SWenson, Counci1rren Horn and Geving. No negative votes. MJtion carried. OUTLOT A, SARA'IOGA FIRST ADDITION: Tan Klingelhutz - I have a lot, it's a parcel of property, it's 15, 700 square feet. (Pat) Kerber's driveway canes across it. I need advice as to how I should handle this. If I give him an easement for a driveway I will be giving him 3,100 square feet. I would still have 12,600 feet left. It would solve a lot of problems for Ire because the guy wants to go to court. In the minutes of the Ireeting, the City had required Ire to give him a description of the driveway. It has never been filed on the County level. As far as the County goes, the entire lot is mine. He is just driving over it. I would like to resolve that. Scott Martin - 'll1ere are two ways to approach this. '!he Kerber driveway is located in a public street right-of-way. At least back in 1977 the City agreed that that was in fact a roadway and as Tan said, it's not of record but it's a public roadway that was developed by prescription which rreans that the City, for quite a period of tirre actually ma.intained a road there. This i tern will be on the next Council agenda. Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -2- PUBLIC HEARING PHEASANT HILL/WALDRIP SECOND ADDITION Mayor Hamilton called the hearing to order. The following persons were present: Mark Koegler, VanIbren-Hazard-Stallings Art Ahlm, 6310 Steller Circle Earl St. John, 1621 West 63rd Street Merrill Steller, 1931 Crestview Drive Mr. and Mrs. Bernard Benz, Sr., 6300 Galpin Blvd. George Steller, 6311 Steller Circle Russell larson, 1900 First Bank Place west, Minneapolis Mr. and Mrs. Jim Anderst, 1940 Melody Hill Road Thomas Klingelhutz, 8551 Tigua Circle Paul pal.Irer, 3402 Columbus Avenue South, Minneapolis I Bill t-bnk - As a part of the approval that went on before, there has been a lot of ea5'ement and land problems of discrepancies in this area and one of the major items that still is included in what's being proposed is that nothing is shown where the City would have easement rights across the property and there is still sore question about that. As of right now if this was approved as a project it would include the City getting an easement unless it was shown that the City or the developer already had a right to that. The City does need an easement across those parcels (Ahlm and Benz properties) and the legal opinion is, right at the rrorrent, that we do not have that right and any irrprovement would include either negotiating or condemning for the easements. It is on the other side of an existing road. It is not actively used property but it is a point that the Council should keep in mind. The final plat is consistent with the approved preliminary plat in every way. There are no changes. It is recorrmended that the final plat be approved. Russell larson - I am aware of that title problem. I hope that I am going to be able to convince Mr. Knutson and Mr. t-bnk that George Steller is the proprietor of that easement. It was all developed for his benefit and retained by him and he is willing to assign it to the City. We have, I believe, full docurrentation on that now. I Bernard Benz - I own the property on the corner and I would like to sul:mi t to you a piece of paper that I have written out. I do indeed own that property. My abstract for deed is quite explicit. I don't have it with me this evening. I gave Mr. Monk a copy. Bill t-bnk - Also sul:mi tted are two deve10prent contracts. One for Waldrip's Second AOCli tion and one for Pheasant Hill. Both are on the City's standard fonn with the arrount of the letters of credit filled in and are as canplete as I can make them short of signatures. I believe both are in approval fonn and I do recC'lIlIend that they be approved as sul:mitted. The next item is a feasibility study that was can- missioned for Pheasant Hill and Waldrip'S Second Addition. It details costs for both subdivisions. They are included together because they do share street and uti- lity facilities and also will both benefit somewhat from proceeding as one project. For that reason the Council did approve a feasibility study for both. The feasibi- li ty study breaks the projects out as clearly as we could into different phases and Phase I of the Waldrip Addition and Phase I of Pheasant Hill are irrprovements that will be included in the irrprovement hearing. The feasibility study presents all the I engineering work for all the phases. John Gilbertson from Consulting Engineers Diversified is here to answer questions or run through a brief presentation for the audience and the Council on this item. I I I Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -3- John Gilbertson - We have divided it into three phases with an estimated cost of $1,198,600 for all phases. The Phase I improvements that we are here to discuss this evening are an estimated cost of $538,600. What I would like to do is briefly go through the different improvements, sanitary s&Ner, water, storm drainage, and streets, for the Phase I improvements. Phase I sanitary sewer improvements really consist of two sections, the green sanitary S&Ner lines would be assessed to the Pheasant Hill Ad:1ition and the lines shown in blue to the Waldrip'S Ad:1ition. 'Ihe cost of the lines shown in red would be shared between the two additions so that if both additions go the cost of that sanitary S&Ne line would be ratioed based on the number of lots between the two additions. One property that benefits throughout the improvements is the properties Three highlighted in yellow. It will benefit fran sanitary sewer, water, storm drainage and street improvements. The estimated cost for the Pheasant Hill Addition is $107,800, for Waldrip's Addition $38,600. waterrnain improvements are very similar to the sanitary sewer improvements. Water consists of 6" water line extending from Steller Circle and West 63rd Street. The line shown in green are those that would be assessed to the Pheasant Hill Ad:1ition. The lines shown in blue would be assessed to the Waldrip's Ad:1i tion. The short sec- tion of water line in Steller Circled is what is described in the additional handout that you received this evening for the revised Table 11. The cost of this water line will be assessed to those lots shown in orange and that will reduce the overall assessments to four lots since they have already been assessed for lateral water- main. The estimated cost for Pheasant Hill is $60,800 and for Waldrip's Addition $13,000 . The storm sewer for Phase I consists of constructing two ponds. A 2.6 acre foot pond located between the two additions and a 2.9 acre foot pond in the Pheasant Hill Addition. A third pond will be constructed as a part of Phase II. The drainage from the phases will drain through these ponds and ultimately through a new culvert under Lake Lucy Road. Street improvements are very similar to the sani- tary S&Ner and water improvements. The standard city street section will be built throughout the plat and consists of 28 foot wide street with concrete curb and gutter. The cost of a segrrent of Pheasant Drive will be shared between the two addi tions . Steller's Circle is also planned to be upgraded as a part of this pro- ject in Phase 1. 'Ibat will provide benefit to the three lots shown. Those three lots have not petitioned for this improvement and will receive a benefit fran this improvement as will properties Three. The estimated cost for street improvement in Pheasant Hill is $147,200 and $41,000 for grading improvement. Waldrip's Ad:1ition streets $37,000 and grading $11,400. The revised preliminary assessment roll which was handed out prior to the meeting tonight shows the addition of the four lots on Steller Circle which have received a waterrnain benefit. Their estimated typical lot costs is slightly reduced from that of the remainder of the addition $12,500 as com- pared to $13, 700 . Properties Three receives the same assessrrent as the Waldrip's Ad:1i tion because it benefits from all the planned improvements. The three proper- ties along Steller Circle will receive a street benefit and that amount is $5,228. Merrill Steller - I own the property just south of Lake Lucy Road. I wonder how that low area is going to be affected with the drainage. John Gilbertson - What we have attempted to do with the ponds that we are constructing is to retain or detain as much water as we can that is developed by the site. There is going to be sare impact because there is going to be water generated here that flows across into your property. Merrill Steller - I don't know if I have any recourse on this. It would appear that the water area on my side is going to be expanded just because of the size. John Gilbertson - It is difficult to say. What we are trying to do here is to minimize the amount of water that will be flowing at any given time across Lake Lucy Road onto your property. Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -4- Mayor Hamil ton - When you put a culvert under the road to go to Mr. Steller's pro- perty you are bound to be increasing the flow of water. Are you just running it into his property and then that's the end of the project? John Gilbertson - As I understand it there is sane sort of a drain tile through that ridge line. That is what is draining the low area now. I Merrill Steller - That area now is classified as a Class B wetland area. Until five or six years ago we fanned that field until the tile apparently deteriorated and now in the spring of the year there is an open tile that causes a lot of that water in there now so I am certainly not interested in increasing the area there. The other question, but in an area like that, that was originally tiled and is now classified as a Class B wetland, is there any recourse that I have if I want to repair that drain tile? Mayor Hamilton - You can repair that drain tile. Merrill Steller - I am not interested in getting rrcre water over there. Mayor Hamilton - Does it drain into that area now fran the north of the road? Merrill Steller - To be honest I don't know where that comes fran. There is a bro- ken tile that just gushes out of there for maybe six-eight weeks in the spring. I asstll'IEd that it was cc:xning fran the other side but that's never wet. Bill z.t::>nk - There are culverts under Lake Lucy Road right now. The water does find its way across Lake Lucy and it does go down to that wetlands and then does go through the drain tile between two hills and finds its way down to a problem area that we have got and Mr. Steller and I have talked about at the end of West 67th Street. The water is making its way to Lake Lucy. '!bat's the way the drainage is going to go and we are not going to change the pattern with this. We have oversized the ponds because of concern with downstream drainage and the rate that it will take. We have oversized these ponds, putting in two ponds as a part of Phase I with a third pond and the use of that existing lowland for a wetlands, it is on the adja- cent property is our intent with Phase II to try to get an easerrent over that to ease the downstream burden and control the rate so that it is as least equal to if not less than, at least the rate of runoff as it would be existing right now. I think before too much rrcre developrrent of the area occurs and further plats come in that the City may have to look at overall storm drainage improverrents down in through that area but at this point I do not believe Phase I is the breaking point as far as the drainage goes down that way but the water will go across Mr. Steller's land as it does go down to Lake Lucy and we will try to minimize the impact as much as possible. I Councilworran Watson - Who would assurre the costs for those improvem=nts at that tirre? Bill z.t::>nk - If it goes as a municipal project, we would have state aid funds involved but you would also be assessing the people abutting the road and the people wi thin the watershed. Councilwcmm Watson - He said that those drain tiles are broken, is that water suc- cessfully making its way down to Lake Lucy right now? I Bill z.t::>nk - It's finding its way down. Whether successfully or not, I am not sure. It does pond across the road there before it ultimately finds its way across but as Mr. Steller said it's a Type 2 wetland so it's going to pond in there before it goes I I I Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -5- through. In looking at the overall drainage that Phase I would rrake or break the situation with the size of the ponds that we have will hold in excess of the 100 year rain. Mayor Hamilton - If we are going to have an additional problem when we get to Phase II it seems like we ought to take a look at it right now. Bill M::mk - We did look at the overall drainage and how it will be impacted. As a part of Phase II and III we will be looking at putting another sizeable pond on the other side of the street where it is still on this subdivision and I guess when I said that I didn't think that Phase I would make or break, I don't believe that this plat by itself will actually, with the ponding areas proposed and the low areas that will retain the water on its way down to rake Lucy that the problem will becane unbearable downstream but I do believe that when improverrents to rake Lucy Road are looked at that would be the proper time for the City to look at stonn sewer. Councilwanan Watson - If those drain tiles are not functioning well before we get to Phase II and III we have got to make sure that however this thing is going to rake Lucy that it is indeed the best way. Bill funk - The proposal is not to damage downstream property but to cane up with the best system for this plat as we can. As we looked at the overall drainage system we did not believe that downstream would be impacted to the position where we would be causing an overall area problem and the on-site ponds and the wetland areas as you go down there would be enough to handle the problem. Paul Palmer - I am with Waldrip's Second Adii tion. One of the things that Tan and I were just talking about is that the two ponds that are going to be created really are not ponds and I am not holding water now so by creating two ponds we are collecting water that is really running down to rake Lucy Road right now. By creating those two ponds, I think, we should be able to diminish the flow that we are getting there. Until that's done we won't know for sure. Councilman Horn - Obviously we are rraking a trade off here. We are creating rrore impervious surface but we are increasing the holding areas. Is there any calculation done to say that we are ponding in proportion to the arrount of impervious surface we are creating. John Gilbertson - Yes. What we are actually doing is we are ponding for Phases I and II in excess of what the nonnal standard would be. That would be the arrount of runoff generated by a 100 year stonn. We will be able to store that entire arrount and nonnally let it out very slowly. That is what our intention is. Phase III, we will need to expand the second pond slightly in order to make that same statement at that time. Councilman Horn - The water is going to get across there sanehow right now, is it safe to say that there will be less water flowing down there in the future based on the ponding sizes? John Gilbertson - It will be flowing across there at a slower rate. Councilwanan Swenson - Mr. Steller, you mentioned that you had farrred this land was that prior to the time that the tile broke? Merrill Steller - Yes. Councilwanan Swenson - Did you cease fanning it because of the breakage of the tile? council Meeting July 23, 1984 -6- Merrill Steller - That's right. My father passed away about eight years ago and since that time we have rented all the land out and we have not repaired that tile and consequently they haven't been able to farm that piece. Councilworran SWenson - Would it have been your thinking to put that land back into farmable property? Merrill Steller - I would like to be able to do that if we so wished. I Councilworran Swenson - This tiling, then I assurre was taking the runoff from the other side of the road, is that correct? Merrill Steller - I would assurre so. I am not sure. Councilwoman Swenson - Could we assurre further than that if the tile was repaired that this would solve the problem of the runoff and take it down to Lake Lucy? Merrill Steller - I think it would solve as far as existing but I don't know about any additional. Mayor Hamilton - As long as the flow doesn't increase. John is saying that he doesn't see any increase in the flow going onto your property it shouldn't be any worse than it is now. Merrill Steller - I have the property for sale and I would hope to be in a position if someone would purchase it to repair that drain tile and do sanething with that property. We do have a problem down in West 67th Street now where the water is just about up to the road level and if there is additional runoff there we are going to have a problem down in that area. Councilwoman Swenson - Bill, you don't seem to feel there is anything we can do to alleviate that unless we go into a project, is that correct? I Bill M:mk - We are looking at West 67th Street right now and the possibility of doing sane digging to get the water from the culverts through an area that is grown up in high reeds so that it is trapping the water by the end of West 67th Street. It's rrore like a normal maintenance problem that we have got down on the end of West 67th Street because it is so low in relation to the lake level. It may well not be corrected until storm sewer irrproverrents are made through the area. 'lhrough the control of the rate of runoff coming through these ponds and the oversizing of the ponds as much as possible, I believe that we can state that the situation across the road will not be negatively irrpacted to the point where huge arrounts of water will cane flying through the existing tile. Use of the existing downstream system is not the best but I believe at this point it will work for this subdivision so the report is not proposing any further downstream irrproverrents. Councilwanan Swenson - I guess what I am trying to avoid is that if Mr. Steller does indeed sell his property and the new buyers choose to repair the tile and farm that land and we find that he canes back to say all that water is running over here we are going to be paddling around. We would just assurre that we would be able to uti- li ze this man's property as a part of our drainage system. Bill funk - That's basically what is before the Coucil right now is use of wetlands I for purifying on its way to lakes. That's a major theory behind the whole ordinance is the use of that tyPe of land. I I I Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -7- Councilwanan SWenson - Even though a new developnent is creating the problem? I can see a potential problem down the road and you are saying that the City is going to have to assurre the responsibility for that. The developers are doing xyz and if we approve this, and if there is a future problem it's the City's problem. Bill M:>nk - '!he basic premise on this subdivision is that this will not negatively impact downstream property to the point that the stonn water improvements are needed at this point. Councilwanan Swenson - At this point, yes. Bill M:>nk - With Phase A and B and even C, with all the internal ponding that that is the premise that the findings of this report and that's the basis of this report. With that in mind we are just trying to use the downstream water and control the rate and allow the water to continue to rake Lucy as it is now. I don't think there is any q\Estion that as the property to the south developes and as further develop- ment occurs throughout this area that we will have to look at this in tenns of increased runoff but in this proposal I don't believe that it will impact it. Mayor Hamilton - Is anyone else here fran the public who has ccmrents to make? Merrill Steller - I am wondering if that area that was tiled at one time and it if could be properly classified as a Type B wetland? '!he Type B wetland, that classifi- cation could be put on that property as moch as it was tiled. Councilman Geving - It depends on how it shows up on the June 1984 map. What is it now? We have detennined that those classifications can change but it's not very likely. Merrill Steller - It was a fanned piece of property until the tile became ineffective and, of course, now there is water standing there. Mayor Hamilton - After the tile has been repaired we would have to take another look at it and see what you have. Councilman Geving roved to close the public hearing. Motion seconded by Councilwanan Watson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwanen Watson and Swenson, Councilmen Horn and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried. PHEASANT HILL/WALDRIP' S SECOND ADDITION: Councilman Horn - How long has the property not been fanned? Merrill Steller - Probably seven or eight years is IT!Y best guess. Councilman Horn - I am still not quite clear on the flow sanetimes I hear the words used "will not be adversely affected" and sanetimes I hear that "it won't be affected to any great degree" I would seem like if we did it properly we could actually prove in both situations so that less flow would take place. Could we make that part of the developnent contract so that if there were a problem later that it would deter- mined a developers problem not part of the City's problem. Bill M:>nk - Any problem that would CQII)e up at a later date the City would always be able to initiate a public improverrent hearing for costs of improverrents needed through this area would be assessed to the drainage area including Pheasant Hill and any other areas that would drain down this way to pay for costs of those improve- ments. The City would not be through general obligation necessarily liable for costs associated with that improverrent. council Meeting July 23, 1984 -8- Councilman Horn - My concern here is we have property that has not been used for seven or eight years, it would seem to Ire that if there was a real about reclaiming this as farm property it would have been done by now. There was nothing stopping anyone from doing this in the past. The position I don't want to get the City into is that we get blaxred for the increased flow and we are the ones then who has to pay to bring this back to be farm property and I haven't seen any intent to do that for seven or eight years and don't want us to be the ones that are held responsible to do that. I Bill M:mk - I can't see where we would be responsible to reclaim a piece of land to its old purpose. Councilman Horn - What would typically hapPen is sane of the things that have care up in the past where people coree to us and say you should not have issued building per- mits and we wouldn't have the water problem we have. Therefore, they will sue the City because we have issued building permits or allowed a developrrent to take place as in this case. That's the position I don't want to be in. Roger Knutson - What Bill is saying is the rate will not increase but the overall quantity might increase. Under those circumstances you are not changing the water course. Mayor Hamilton - Isn't it possible that as one of the other phases develop that if it appears as though there is going to be a problem you could corre do some ponding simi- lar to what you did in the industrial park. Bill M:>nk - The use of the lowlands on the property adjacent would be a perfect example of where that could be done because the property is peat like in nature and it would lend itself to that type of use. I Roger Knutson - Bill, am I correct that it is irrpractical if not close to irrpossible not to increase the quantity of runoff unless you have an evaporation pond or sane such thing. You have got to have rrore runoff if you have developrrent. Bill M:>nk - There would be an increase and in this case it would be sorrewhat less because the ponds are oversized so that there is rrore chance for evaporation and filtration through the soil so that the overall increase would be greatly reduced I think. Roger is right that you stress that the rate of runoff through this proposal would be lessened but there would be an increase in the overall runoff from the site just because there is rrore hard surface throughout the entire plat. In the increase, after looking at the entire drainage system, is not seen as significant enough to have a negative inpact on the properties to the south so that rrore major storm water irrproverrents are necessary at this point. Roger Knutson - Maybe we should also point out that in paragraph 7.12 (b) of the developrrent agreerrent there is standard language "the developer shall hold the City and its officers and employees harmless fran claims fran all claims made by itself and third parties for damages sustained or costs incurred resulting fran plat appro- val and developrrent". Councilman Geving - Since I have been on the Council I know of no single element that's given us m:>re problems than the water developed as a result of construction I sites and I can give you three or four exarrples and cite to you the dollar volumes that's it cost us. We had problems on Lotus Trail. We had problems with Lot 12 on Frontier Trail as a result of Western Hills. We had trouble in Minnewashta. All of these things cost us rroney and I think many times we were short sighted when we let those developrrents happen and sure, it's not the problem today and maybe it won't be I I I Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -9- a problem in the first phase of this develoI;J11ent but I am thinking of what may happen when the second and third additions come in and that water starts to flow across lake Lucy and into that ponding area and into the lake Lucy area itself. My questions are, will it affect the haneowners living on lake Lucy? Will there be water standing on Mr. Steller's property five years fran now even if he doesn't own it. I looked at the feasibility study and I found it to be void of the very thing I was looking for. In every feasibility study water flowage and volurres have been addressed. This thing has got one line that says "water will flow south towards lake Lucy". Now that's not adequate to me. We need to know the volurre of that water. will it affect the water level of lake Lucy? Is the drainage to lake Lucy adequate so that if we get a couple 100 year stonns in the matter of a few days and this developrrent is fully develoPed five years down the line, is it going to raise the water level two or three inches, six inches, I don't know. Those are the questions. It isn't going to happen now. It won't happen with the first phase of this developrnent. We ought to be ready for it. Mr. Steller is exactly right, that water is going to cane fran up there. I would like to see as part of this developnent project a little bit rrore interesting reading in tenns of the water flows and a rrore thorough study that should have been done in this feasibility study. Councilman Horn - Let's assurre three years down the road we have the other develop- ments in and we find out that this system is inadequate, wouldn't there be other pro- perty owners who then would be affected in an overall area-wide assessment to improve this. '!hey would be then the ones who don't even know about this proposal. Bill M:>nk - When you look at a stonn water improvement you don't necessarily pay attention who developed first but you just look at the reasonable develoI;J11ent of their property and you assess on an overall area. One developnent went in in 1965, and one in 1968 and the other went in in 1972 that they are all reasonable develop- rnents and that they all impact the drainage to that area so therefore should all share in the costs of the improvement and you don't look to just the last guy who supposedly broke the camels back as the guy who should pick up all the costs. Councilman Horn - My concern though is that there are PeOple who are not even aware that that potential exists who could be affected by this. Bill M:>nk - At this point they weren't notified because they were not proposed to be affected but everyone within a watershed could potentially be affected every time a project goes on. Mayor Hamilton - Probably in the developnent contract sane ccmnent should be made about the water. That the developer as phases go on needs to look at additional ponding so that there isn't increased flowage. Councilman Geving - In each phase of the project I think we ought to review that very strenuously and not proceed until that's resolved. Mayor Hamilton - I also think that as part of the feasibility study we should have a section in there. We should have rrore information about what flow there is now across Mr. Steller's property and what is projected to go on his property. What's the net affect going to be to that piece of property. It's a Class B wetland. BaN big is it now and is it proposed to grow as rrore water goes in there. I think we have to look at all those things. Councilman Horn - I think we should look at the whole watershed issue so we have an idea what the impact could be. Councilwana.n Swenson - I agree. council Meeting July 23, 1984 -10- Councilman Horn - We should know where those drain tiles are on that property. Billlvbnk - We don't have a storm water management plan. We don't even have a tope of the whole City on a scale that we can use. It is difficult but not impossible to I establish exactly where the drainage area would be for every subdivision that we have got caning in and to figure out the overall irrpact. One of the problems that you come up with is I have no idea how many drain tiles there are in the City but I know that I probably know where 10% of them are. I don't know how big they are. I don't know what they drain. Where they outlet but they are there. You are asking good questions but with the information that we have got available we can give flow num- bers, the impact of the subdivision and that type of thing but the overall drainage calculations have not been put together and that's a major task onto itself and when I looked at having a water managerrent plan put together the price starts at $50,000 and goes up. Councilman Geving - We have spent $50,000 on two different project already so that doesn't bother me. Councilman Horn - I think the next question we should consider is if we should even rely on drain tile systems to be part of our overall storm drainage systems. Would we as part of a storm sewer system repair tile. I would suspect we would create a whole different system. Councilwanan SWenson - Perhaps in the future what we should do is start thinking about equating the ponding and require ponding to be equal to the displacerrent of the runoff created by the hard surfacing in a deve1oprrent. Bill lvbnk - '!hat's basically what we do with using the criteria that we use right now I is the 100 year storm. You could pick any criteria you would want but no matter what criteria you pick, unless you have a huge land mass you could never hold all the water on-site. It's physically impossible. Even the lakes flow fran one to the other and finally down to the river. You do have to have outlets and the accepted engineering principle is that the rates be kept the same. Councilman Geving - I would like to review the three property owners, Bragg, Benz, and Ahlm properties to the north. These people are only going to be assessed for streets at $5,228. Mayor Hamilton - You have not reached an agreement with Benz and Ahlm? Roger Knutson - We haven't done a title opinion as such. I will contact Mr. Larson. Councilman Geving - Mr. Benz, I read in your note that any construction is subject to IT!Y approval. Does that mean that you are willing to negotiate on the easement? Bernard Benz - Al::solutely. We already had a deal made with Mr. Klingelhutz. However, he voided that deal quite sorce time ago. Mayor Hamilton rroved to approve the final plat for Pheasant Hill. lvbtion seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwanan Watson, Councilroen Geving and Horn. Councilwanan Swenson abstained. Motion carried. Mayor Hamil ton - '!be approval of the developrrent contracts, if we approve these I I would like to have a paragraph put in there about the water situation and the possi- bility of increasing the storage. Councilman Geving - I think the other thing, that at every phase of the project as it comes in for approval that this issue will be reviewed by the Council. I I I Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -ll- Councilman Horn - That woulOO't be part of this developrrent contract. It would be part of their developrrent contract. Bill M:mk - '!his developrrent contract does include a phasing plan. '!his development contract would be used for Phases II and III as you can see in Section 1.03 so anything you would put in this one would be binding for whatever future phases. Roger Knutson - Does the Council want to have the language brought back to it? Mayor Hamilton roved to table approval of the develoPIIent contracts until the wordage is changed. fution seconded by Councilman Horn. '!he following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, CouncilwOI1l9n Watson and Swenson, Councilmen Horn and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried. Mayor Hamilton - The acceptance of the feasibility study. Is it possible to have anything added to this feasibility study about the flowage? Bill funk - The Council can approve the feasibility study with a rrodification to the section with rore detail about the drainage. Councilman Horn - I guess the strange thing is that we are approving a developnent, contract that includes all the other phasing but we are looking at a feasibility study that only includes the first phase. Bill funk - All the improverrents proposed are incll.rled in the feasibility study unless we wanted to add sane storm water improverrents that aren I t in there. If you look in the feasibility study the watermain and the sanitary sewer and all the costs that are in the proposed assessrrents for future phases are a part of that. Councilman Horn - But we thought we really diOO't know anything about what the future phases would be as far as water flow. You are saying those are calculated in all the water flow calculations? How could you do that without knowing the impervious sur- faces of the other phases? Bill funk - Well, you can figure the impervious surface for the other phases just as you can now because the preliminary has an overall developrrent plan and we are assuming that the developrrent will COI1l9 in consistent with that preliminary plat. If that changes sOI1l9what that would change the flowage slightly but I am assuming that the changes between the preliminary and final would be very minor. Councilman Horn - The size of the retention pond for the later phases was also calculated?- Bill funk - Yes, it was. RESOLurION #84-35: Mayor Hamilton roved the adoption of a resolution accepting the feasibility study with the stipulation that additional information be provided about downstream flowage of water for this phase and projected for additional phases. resolution seconded by Councilman Horn. '!he following voted in favor: Mayor Hamil ton, Councilwcman Watson, Councilmen Geving and Horn. Councilwcman Swenson abstained. Motion carried. Bill funk - '!he next rotion, if the Council would wish to proceed with this, would be approve the installation of municipal improverrents in accordance with the provisions of Chapter 429 authorize the acquisition of easerrents, preparation of plans and SPe- cifications, and the solicitation of construction bids for Phase 1. council Meeting July 23, 1984 -12- Don Ashworth - I have mat with Juran and MJody, given timing we would look to a sale to cover this project as well as a few other minor projects. You will look to a very good rate at this point in time. The proposed sale date would be wi thin 60 days. Paul Palmer - Tan and I have been looking at petitioning this for the last couple of rconths and the natural time to do this project is now and we feel very strongly that the project is ready to go and the lots are ready to be developed. Our intention is to have the development go ahead because the year is slipping by fast. I Representative of PrOPerties 'lhree - We just want to make sure that you have a copy of the agreement between Mr. Palmer and ourselves about the arcount of assessments that are assessed to our parcel. Bill M::>nk - We don I t usually get involved in private agreements. If there is an agreement between these two people on how much the assessments should be we assess the benefit and they will arrive at whatever agreement that they wish to but the City should not get involved. I am aware of their agreement and the numbers do seem to work out in favor of your agreement but beyond that I have not done anything else. RESOLUTION #84-36: Mayor Hamilton rcoved the adoption of a resolution approving the installation of municipal improvements according to provisions of Chapter 429 of Minnesota Statutes and authorize the acquisition of easements, the preparation of plans and SPecifications and the solicitation of construction bids for Phase I. Resolution seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwoman Watson, Councilman Geving and Horn. Councilwoman SWenson was absent during this rcotion. M::>tion carried. MINUTES: Councilwoman Watson rcoved to note the June 27, 1984, Planning Cannission I minutes. M::>tion seconded by Councilman Horn. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilworren Watson and SWenson, Councilman Horn and Geving. No negative votes. M::>tion carried. WETIAND ORDINAOCE, SOCOND READING: Cannittee members Susan Conrad, Dick Teich, Court MacFarlane, and Henry Sosin were present. Several interested persons were also present. Mayor Hamilton - What I would like to do is just rcove through this section by section again. Sane of the sections we had proposed no changes since the first reading. Section 28.1, Statement of Findings and Intent, is there a question or ccmrent on this section? Section 28.2, Statement of Purpose. Don Ashworth - We did receive a letter today from Larkin, Hoffman Finn. I don It know how Mr. Beck I s points relate as you are going through. Peter Beck - As we get to the relevant sections I will just mention them. Court MacFarlane - I had just one question in regard to the use of the work "preservation" instead of "cxmservation". preservation, I don It know if it excludes the idea of doing sanething positive to the wetlands. Preservation means that basi- cally left pretty much alone. If you use the word conservation in place of it, wouldn It that include preservation? Mayor Hamilton - I thought that was in here. Preserving it means that if you are doing construction within the area you nay work in part of the wetland but you want to go back and have that wetland as it was when you started. Court MacFarlane - Does that preclude doing S<>lrething to the wetland to help it? I I I I Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -13- Councilman Geving - No not necessarily. Mayor Hamilton - We can probably put both in, preservation and conservation. Anything else in 28. 2? Section 28.3, Establishrrent of Wetland Areas. Councilman Geving - I would like to see that map brought down to an 8 x 10 size and be available whenever this packet is placed with the ordinance. Where ever we refer to this and sane people cane in and pick up the ordinance they should have attached to ita copy of that wetlands map. Scott Martin - We will have the availability and capability of reproducing. Mayor Hamilton - Section 28.4 Determination of Wetland area. Henry Sosin - In the middle of the paragraph, in the sentence starting "'!he City Council may exempt land from the wetland regulation", I believe at our last meeting the last phrase after the word "or" and it was my irrpression that that phrase was to be deleted. Mayor Hamilton - I think you are right. Court MacFarlane - In the first sentence "An applicant for developm;mt which may be in a wetland" I was wondering if that shouldn't be a wetland area and later on in the ordinance you refer to "including the land adjacent to or abutting to a horizontal distance of 200 feet". That's the control area. What I would propose would be that it would read "An applicant for developrrent which may be in a wetland area, including the land adjacent to or abutting it to a horizontal distance of 200 feet shall be obligated to bring this to the City's attention". It just defines it a rrore. Mayor Hamilton - I am not sure that fits in Determination of a Wetland Area. Court MacFarlane - It is referred to later on. Mayor Hamilton - I think by adding the one word you rrentioned "An applicant for deve- loprrent which may be in a wetland 'area' shall be obligated to bring this to the City'S attention". Section 28.5, Definitions. Definitions do pretty well until we get to Structure. I wasn't aware that a fence is a structure. Roger Knutson - Fence was in the draft that the carmi.ttee ca.rre up with. Councilwoman Watson - If you are grazing animals in that area you are going to have a fence and it really isn't a structure it is sirrply a means of keeping your animals from wandering. Councilman Horn - I think it's appropriate to leave things like privacy fences in under structure. Councilwoman SWenson - I am only concerned with a barbed wire fence in a wetland area where we have wildlife. Mayor Hamilton - I also have to ask about portable structures. Court MacFarlane - Fish houses. Ice houses. Mayor Hamilton - Doesn't that corre under building or shed? You are not defining por- table structure. You are saying a portable structure is a structure. council Meeting July 23, 1984 -14- Henry Sosin - One of the legal definitions of a structure which is anything attached to or placed upon, etc. the surface of the ground. Posts, it's attached and yet you could have fishing houses, ice houses anything on wheels that would be a structure. Mayor Hamilton - That would be counted under a shed. Councilman Horn - Fish houses wouldn't be, I don't think. Councilman Geving - It would be easier if you just said fish houses. next one "stock piles" I don't know what that is. I It's like the Court MacFarlane - The storage of material that may be rroved later and used for sorrething else; sand, gravel, wood. Councilman Geving - That makes rrore sense to me if you put that in there. Storage of any material, such as sand, wood, rocks. Councilman Horn - Part of the reason for putting this in here is so that PeOple know what we are talking about. Peter Beck - The one that we were wondering about was fences. If you intend to require a wetland alteration pennit for a privacy fence that's well within your discretion I just thought I would point out that's what it would include and stock piles, if sa.neone had their wood pile in a wetland they would have to corre and get a wetland alteration pennit to do that. Signs, the City has a pretty canprehensive sign ordinance and this would require a second penni t for a sign. They are rrore in the nature of suggestions. Councilman Horn - We see signs that say "this is a protected wetland" do we want that out of there? I Councilwoman SWenson - I think we should strike "rosiness". A sign is a structure. Councilwoman SWenson - I just didn't see any reason why it was necessary to have. Susan Conrad - How about is we use the word "advertising" signs? I can't imagine anyone advertising their campaign in a wetland. Mayor Hamilton - If you are selling your property, is that advertising? Councilman Horn - Yes. Mayor Hamil ton - So you can't put a sign on your property to sell it. Councilman Horn - Not in a wetland. You can put it somewhere else. Councilman Geving - I like "advertising" signs. Mayor Hamilton - Section 28.6, Prohibited Uses in Class A Wetlands. Councilman Geving - Open storage #5. Peter Beck - Is it possible that there might be a definition for open storage in the new zoning ordinance. I would think when you adopt the new ordinance you may solve this problem. I Roger Knutson - Open storage would also include things like having six or seven trucks sitting outside. I I I Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -15- Mayor Hamilton - HON about #8. Operation of propeller driven watercraft. Why can't we say power boats in all tyPes of classes because if it's just propeller driven they have those jet boats. r-btorized craft of all sizes and classes. Section 28. 7, Prohibited Uses in Class B Wetlands. Why didn't we do the same thing there as in #8 and say rrotorizedcraft also? Henry Sosin - Type B is not navigable water. Mayor Hamilton - Section 28.8, Activities Requiring a Wetland Alteration Pennit. Court MacFarlane - Item 10 is basically your grandfather clause. You are grand- fathering in existing uses but you are excluding the necessity for a wetland altera- tion pennit for the expansion or addition to that use. Wouldn't you want to be able to review that? What if they were to double the use that is there now? Councilman Geving - HON would you reword it? Court MacFarlane - Any structure in a Class A or B wetland including expansion and additions to uses existing on the date this ordinance is enacted. Roger Knutson - This means that if sooeone wants to add a deck onto their house or add a garage they would have to go through this process. Councilman Geving - Did the carmi.ttee consider a fee for the alteration pennit? Court MacFarlane - No. Henry Sosin - I thought we did early on and my irrpression was that if we did it would be minimal fee because the expense would be in providing the infonnation necessary to alter the wetland. Mayor Hamilton - IX> you want to leave #10 as it is or do you want to change it? Councilwoman Watson - HON extensive would the infonnation be that they have to provide for sirrply adding a deck because they are wi thin 200 feet. IX>n Ashworth - That's an accessory use so it wouldn't require a penni t. Roger Knutson - They took that out. Councilman Horn - We are not requiring the infonnation. We are just having them cane in and get a pennit. If there were a lot of infonnation they had to provide and it would cost a lot of rroney I would be m:>re concerned about that. iX>n Ashworth - It can get into a time involvement. '!he reason that was added in was to try to take care of the minor tyPe of a use that would be a part of nonnal usage of the property. Henry Sosin - What about carrnercial venture that has open storage and they nON say, well, we are going to double the size of our lot and since we are already here you have no authority. It is up to the Council to detennine what infonnation they require of anyone asking for a penni t so if it's saneone building a deck on his house the kind of infonnation would be minute. Don Ashworth - r-bst people that want to put on a deck have nade the decision and are ready to start. They don't mind coming in and getting a penni t but the two to three weeks that it might take to get to the City Council is an aggravation. council Meeting July 23, 1984 -16- Roger Knutson - I don't think it would be three weeks. It would be longer than that actually because it has to go to the Planning ccmni.ssion. Councilwoman SWenson - I 'WOuld think that staff would have to use discretion. If someone canes in and wants to put on a whole new wing, that's practically the same as rebuilding another house. I Don Ashworth - Could it be changed to, except for expansion and additions, to single family minor expansion or minor additions to residential uses? Mayor Hamilton - Leave in there, except for residential single family minor expansion and minor additions. Peter Beck - #6 in Section 28.8 requires a permit for drain tile and excepts out wetlands used for crops and hay production during the 12 rronths preceding. We would like to request that that include grazing or pasture uses in addition to crop and hay production. Councilwoman SWenson - This installing, is this new? I thought originally we just had repair or replacing existing drain tile. Councilman Horn - It's an active agricultural pursuit. 'Ib replace copy or hay pro- duction. - Henry Sosin - I would like to mention again what Pat (SWenson) just mentioned, using the word installing. It implies to me that in areas that had never previously been drained. That was not the intent of this at all. It was replacement. Henry Sosin - Because you could then drain a wetland which was never intended to be drained which is considered a wetland now but was not previously used for agri- cultural pursuits. The purpose of this was to make sure that no fanner got stuck in an area where he had already done the work and used it and was currently using it and now he had to go in and replace the tile or repair. I Mayor Hamilton - Why would we not want them to be able to install? Mayor Hamilton - I think they should have the option if they want to install S<::tre tile. If he wants to come in and ask for a permit to install, I see no reason why we should not allow that. Councilwoman SWenson - Aren't we defeating the purpose of the ordinance all together if we are allowing them to drain a wetland? Mayor Hamilton - We are not saying we are going to allow them to drain. We are saying that if he wants to cane in and present his case and say I want to install a drain tile and this is what I am going to do. I think we ought to listen to him. At least the option is here that he can cane in. Peter Beck - This is not a list of permitted uses. It uses that you have to get a permit for. We don't have a list of permitted uses any rrore. It's just a matter of considering the request. Councilman Geving - I think we ought to leave it in. Councilman Horn - They need a permit for any active agricultural pursuit but they could get a permit for it. Things that we would allow would be things like crop, hay land and whatever. Things that we wouldn't allow are things like animal feedlots and that type of thing. I I I I Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -17- Dick Teich - Just so I get this straight, if sorreone had land in crop production he could repair a drain tile without a penni t. Councilman Geving - Yes. Mayor Hamil ton - If it had not not been in crop production for 12 m:mths then he needs a penni t. Councilworran Swenson - I don't understand #5. Was that sanething we had discussed land tirre? Councilman Horn - Yes. Roger Knutson - That makes it consistent with the other provisions we discussed saying you can't use a IIOtorized craft in the wetland and so all we are saying here is any dock, walkway or roardwalk has got to cane to you. When you see that dock then you can attach any other particular conditions that you want. Mayor Hamilton - Section 28.9, Wetland Alteration pennit Guidelines. Section 28.10, Wetland Alteration pennit Procedures. Section 28.ll, Tirre of Pennit-Extension and Renewals. Section 28.12, Inspection. Section 28.13, R'eSPonsibili ty: Affect. Section 28.14, General Developrrent Regulations. Henry Sosin - The only significant change was that first phrase and I guess I don't understand how you can totally exclude these regulations fran a PUD. Roger Knutson - Part of it is to clear up an ambiguity. A lot in a POD is based not on a single lot. Often it can be based on clustering and that sort of thing so your hard surfaces and your overall density can very well be less than a conventional sub- division. This gives the Council flexibility by using that PUD to allow sane perhaps innovative or better designed subdivision. The Council can say no. In this instance affecting the environment, you have got to have 15,000 square feet or you won't approve a PUD, you want conventional subdivision. It is a Council decision. I put it out there IIOst importantly to bring the Council's attention that a decision has got to be made. Henry Sosin - As it reads now a POD is excluded from these rules. Roger Knutson - No, just from rule 28.14. Councilworran SWenson - The only problem we have is, aren't we putting ourselves in conflict with our Zoning Ordinance for a PUD which requires that any development over 25 lots requires a PUD? Can we then backtrack fran that and say, hay, this is a dif- ferent area and as a result you can't have a POD in there? Roger Knutson - As it is now it's obviously no conflict. You could say that regardless of whether it's a POD, it could still be a PUD and still require 15,000 square foot lots. Peter Beck - That's the point. Even if they cane in POD you can say, for this POD and in these areas need these minimums because of the condition of the land. But on the other hand if the developrrent of the property is better fran everyones point of view without these rigid minimums you can still have that flexibility which is the intent and purpose of your PUD section. council Meeting July 23, 1984 -18- Henry Sosin - I understand your intent but I think the way it reads right now a lawyer could walk in and say this has been accepted and I can demand to have the right to have this accepted and what I think you are trying to say is that these are the rules but then instead of saying "except in conjunction with a PUD" later on in I that paragraph you could say "under unusual circumstances in a POD these rules may be aberrated". Right now you are saying they are, rather than the Council may. Roger Knutson - As a PUD, the Council more or less sets the rules. Peter Beck - If you go PUD you are not guaranteed mu:::h of anything. You just care in and try to present the best use of the land. It's up to the Council. Henry Sosin - I understand that but if I were doing that and I happened to be near a wetland I would walk into the Council with this ordinance and say, you specifically are excepting this ordinance. Roger Knutson - I would say fine, but let's look at our PUD ordinance then. That gives us the right to impose reasonable restrictions for the land and these are the requirerrents. Frankly, I don't have any feeling one way or the other. Henry Sosin - An average person like myself reading the ordinance would understand it better I think rather than the way it is written right now. Councilman Geving - It is a good suggestion. I think the attorney ought to consider it. Court MacFarlane - Does the PUD ordinance also supercede any of the Shoreland Management rules that are set down by the State? Roger Knutson - Under the Shoreland Management rules you can vary all those things by PUD but those PUD's have to be approved by DNR. I Councilwoman SWenson - I think I like Henry's suggestion basically because this is hopefully a long range ordinance and it's simple for those of us who have been involved to know what our intent is in putting it down. Another time, another Council may not rerrember or know what it is that we were going to say and then what has been said can be misinterpreted. Mayor Hamilton - #1 in 28.14, it's not clear to me when you say "minimum lot area, 15,000 square feet". Is your intent not to vary from that? Henry Sosin - Yes. Mayor Hamilton - It is not an average? You are saying absolutely nothing less than 15,000. Henry Sosin - That was our intent. It was in the first layer of hanes which would be one row of hanes that you have that size and the idea of that was to reduce the hard surface area. Peter Beck - This language does not say the first tier. It says wi thin 200 feet. You could catch the second tier if you are within 200 feet of a wetland. In fact you could catch at least the second tier. You are 200 feet from the wetland which can be part of the first tier lot. The first tier may not begin where the wetland ends. I Mayor Hamilton - Section 28.15, Variance. Section 28.16, Enforcement. Section 28 .17 , Severability. Section 28.18 , Penalty. I I I Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -19- Councilwcman SWenson - Section 28.8, #10. We require a building penni t, would that be considered the sarre, with the wetland alterations? Mayor Hamil ton - No. Councilwcman SWenson - If you are going to build a house you have to get both the building pennit and an alteration pennit. Are we saying, #10, "any structure in a Class A or B wetland "area" or any structure in a Class A or B wetland"? It origi- nally was A or B except and then the subject came up should area be included in there. I just wanted this for clarification. As it is written it does not include the word area. Roger Knutson - Look at 28.8, # 7. "Developrrent in any Class A wetland or wi thin 200 feet of a Class A wetland" so you have got it there. Councilman Horn - Under definitions I think it would probably be easier to have the definition underlined. That's easier to read. Don Ashworth - If you would reconsider or think about the penni t fee, one or two suggestions. The City Council may set from time to tiIre the pennit fee by resolution or consider a pennit fee, the applicant shall pay all costs borne by the City as a part of processing this application. Councilman Geving - I like the first one. Don Ashworth - The thing there is if we are going through the publication process and I don't know how complicated sorre of these are going to get but I can anticipate in sore cases we may look to rronies to be escrowed to pay for attorney costs. What I would suggest is that there be allowance for a pennit fee. You can say City Council will set the pennit fee by resolution. Councilman Horn rroved to approve the Wetland Ordinance with noted changes. MJtion seconded by Councilwcman Watson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwomen Watson and SWenson, Councilmen Horn and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried. ORDINAN:E 62-A, AMFNDING '!HE UNIFORM FIRE mOE: Councilman Geving rroved to approve Ordinance 62-A entitled An Ordinance Adopting the Minnesota Unifonn Fire Code by Reference. MJtion seconded by Mayor Hamilton. '!he following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwomen Watson and SWenson, Councilm:m Horn and Geving. No negative votes. MJtion carried. Don Ashworth - Jim did put in under Section H, in which there are four or rrore living quarters so this really only applies to apartments. Roger Knutson - From talking to other fire deparbnents, one of the reasons you want that kind of phrase in there is because in rrost apartrrent buildings you only have one exit. It's possible, although unusual, you could have a duplex on top of each other or even four-plexes straight up and they would not have the benefit of two exits. I just bring that to your attention. ORDINAN:E 3-..1, AMENDING '!HE 'lRAFFIC ORDINAN:E, FIRE IANES: Mayor Hamilton rroved to approve Ordinance 3-..1. MJtion seconded by Councilman Horn. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilworren Watson and Swenson, Councilmen Horn and Geving. No negative votes. MJtion carried. council Meeting July 23, 1984 -20- MINUTES: Councilman Geving rroved to approve the bills as presented: Checks #021605 through #021693 in the amount of $1,447,298.07, Checks #02044 through #020325 in the amount of $317,550.34. M:::ltion seconded by Councilwcxnan Watson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwc:m=n Watson and SWenson, CouncilIren Horn and Geving. No negative votes. MJtion carried. PIPER RIOOE SUBDIVISION, SKEl'CH PLAN: Randy Herman, owner, and several residents of the area were present. 'Ibe proposal is to subdivide 7.32 acres into 16 single family residential lots on property located south of Sandpiper Trail and Minnewashta Woods Dri ve . I Scott Martin - 'Ibe sketch plan review process is intended to give the developer an opportunity to receive your corrments and the Planning Carmission I s corrments early on before they spend a lot of rroney in developing plans and hiring surveyors, etc. It does not involve a public hearing. Should Mr. Heman be advised to proceed to the next step which is the rezoning and preliminary platting of the property there will be public hearings and nailed notice to all hc:m=owners wi thin 350 feet. 'Ibis pro- perty is a remnant of the old Heman family property that moch of which was acquired for the Lake Minnewashta Regional Park by Carver County and also about 12! acres was donated by the Heman family to the City for a future neighborhood park. That land lies just east of this site. It is provided public access via a 50 foot right-of-way easerrent that was dedicated to the City back in 1978 across an adjoining lot in Minnewashta Woods. Umer the proposal they have direct street access onto to Sandpiper Trail when improved. The biggest issue, I guess, in this proposal is that technically speaking it lies outside of the MUSA Line. The land use plan shows the MUSA boundary being on the northern edge of this property and as I understand it was really an error assuming that this property had also been either acquired by the City through the dedication or been acquired by Carver County for the regional park. Soch is not the case. We recCX1lrend approval of the sketch plan encouraging Mr. Heman to proceed first through a City contact with Metropolitan Council for a minor adjus1:rrent of the MUSA Line which we anticipate will not create any problems since the property can be served by sanitary sewer and water and proceeding through a request to rezone the property to R-l and also to amend the land use plan from parks and open space designation that it has to a low density residential. I Mr. Heman - I am interested in response from the Council as well as the residents. I guess what I am looking for at this point is some sort of indication that I can go ahead with confidence that expenditures nade after this point won It be in vain. Councilnan Geving - 'Ibe other evening you called me in regard to this proposition and you indicated you had sent a letter to the hc:m=owners or indicated that you had writ- ten something infonning them of what you are intending to do and I indicated to you that that was the right way to go. I hope that you followed through on that because where we have done that we have found that developers have had very little difficulty with the neighborhood. 'Ibey know exactly what you are attempting to do. As far as this project is concerned, I am very moch in favor of it. I did not realize until I read my packet that it is not landlocked. Mr. Herman - 'Ibere seemed to be a lot of confusion developing in regard to the landlock issue and in regard to the type of housing I want to put in the area. The lot sizes, etc. and how they fit in with the area. George Hock - I am President of the Minnewashta Manor Hc:m=owners Association. In I addi tion to our association I understand the Minnewashta Woods is interested but I don I t think they have an association but I am not speaking for them. We had a meeting of our residents and they asked me to attend this meeting to get a few answers that seem to be bothering them. It seems that our people aren I t particularly I I I Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -21- against the project but they are m:>re interested in as to how it I s going to be handled, the cosmetics of the thing, for example, they would like confinnation fran Randy as to size of the houses, cost of the houses, whether the figure will include the cost of the land, whether the size of the lot is going to be canparable to the other lots in the area and there was particular interest in the access. We really don It have finn infonnation as to understand exactly how the access to this develop- ~nt will be. Whether it will be off Sandpiper Trail or whether it will be fran another area or whether there will be one access or two. There really should be two fran the fire protection point of view. Is there going to be access into Hennan Park from this developrrent? Is there going to be a path or is there going to be a m:>tor vehicle entrance fran this developrrent? A suggestion was that a road be run fran the park along parallel to the Minnewashta Woods area at one entrance to this devleof:XIlent and another entrance off Sandpiper Trail in order to reduce the aIIOunt of traffic both on the Woods and the Sandpiper Trail entrance. So those are really the questions that, I am sure m:>re will cane up as we go along but if Randy would address these questions I think we would all be satisfied. Mayor Hamilton - I think you have a lot of good questions and I what I would hope Randy would do is if he would have a meeting with the Minnewashta Manor Haneowners Association he could answer those questions for you and go over the plans with you. We encourage all of our developers to do that. If he decides he wants to continue on wi th this process he then has to go to the Planning Ccmnission where there will be public hearings held. Many of these issues that you have just ~ntioned will cane up there and be dealt with. Hopefully all of your questions will be answered prior to it getting here. What size lots is he building on? Mayor Hamilton - Randy has given us sane figures here that range fran 15,000 up to 19,000. That is what he is proposing. Randy Hennan - Which is very much consistent with lot sizes already existing in the area. Scott Martin - I did try to show on the sketch plan, he shows the square footage of each of his 16 proposed lots and then I wrote in on wts 1-5 of Block 2, Minnewashta Woods the variation and they have a low of 11, 700 and a high of 18,000. Between 16,000 and 19,000 he is on the high side. Peter Schmid - I own the property where the road is going through and I would just like to state my opposition against it. First the road goes across, I don I t know, they said they contacted the DNR and I was just wondering I want to make sure that the DNR gets out and looks at that because that goes right across a swa.rrq:;>. We have ducks and geese nesting there in the spring plus deer and pheasants. I would like to look out and still see that and not see a road with a bunch of traffic on it. Mayor Hamilton - Were you the property owner in 1977? Peter Schmid - I was not. I believe it was Ecklund and Swedlund that built the Woods and granted that access to the City. Randy Hernan - It sounds like water draining would be a sore point. The reason the water stands there is that a drainage easement was placed across his property and drains now on my parcel of land and so in the spring t~ that low portion of my pro- perty fills up with that additional drainage. Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -22- I purchased property just recently in the last seven rronths because of the zoning and it's a sanctuary for wildlife. I look at it as a wildlife area. On an average evening there are five or six deer and if you turn that into a residen- tial area you have destroyed that. Mrs. Schmid - We all all told that was a park plan and that it would never be deve- loped. We oought our hare on that premise. Tom Erdm:mn - I live at 2750 Sandpiper Trail which is approximately across the street from the entrance to this new neighoorhood. I do have a concern aoout the arrount of traffic that this is going to add to our neighoorhood. We are talking 16 hares and talking the possibility of 20 to 25 autarobiles going through the neighoorhood and that's just one trip. I have a concern aoout that. We are raising young children. It's quite a bid of additional traffic for Sandpiper Trail if this is to be the only access. Councilwoman Watson - '!he access problem needs to be resolved. I think there are a lot of things that need to be discussed here. I don't think it's necessarily out of the question. Councilman Geving - I have mixed feelings aoout this. I would like to look at the property again. We would have to extend the sewer and water to the area. I wish we had picked it up at the time we had the donation for the park. I guess I am not in favor of it. Councilwanan Swenson - I would like to know rrore aoout the access. Other than that, when I first talked with Randy and not having this knowledge it didn't seen quite so, the size of the lots certainly does not seem to be objectionable. Councilman Horn - It would be interesting for me to know why an easement was granted in there for an access if this was indeed intended to be zoned park land. Scott M3.rtin - It was intended to provide access for this property. Councilman Horn - For what purpose? Scott M3.rtin - So he could have access so this could be developed in the future. Councilman Horn - Why was it zoned park and open space? Scott M3.rtin - I think. it was just an error. Councilman Horn - I think we need to look at minutes of the develofiIlent at that time to get a feel for what this was intended for. Scott M3.rtin - Mr. Henna.n wasn't going to donate the property for Henna.n Field unless he was assured he would have access elsewhere. Councilman Horn - Obviously it is in concert with the land develofiIlent size and the plot size. It's in concert with the neighoorhood. I think all we have to detennine is whether it's an appropriate use for the property. Mayor Hamilton - From my standpoint, I am not opposed to the project but there are a lot of questions that need to be answered at this point. First of all Randy has to get approval from the ~tropoli tan Council to allow this parcel of property wi thin the MUSA Line which is not always an easy task. In this sketch plan fonna.t, I am not opposed to it. I I I I I I Council Meeting July 23, 1984 -23- Councilman Horn - I would just like to reiterate what Dale (Geving) said before and that is that Randy has got to work with the neighborhood and show them what he is doing. Peter 'Ihrodahl - I live on IDt 7, Block 2 which is just off the east end of the pro- posal. '!he only thing that I can say is the fact that I, too, bought that lot based on the fact that I was told by the City and several others that lived around there, that it was all going to be open and park land back there. I knew sanewhat of Herman Park and expected that but as I see seroe of the plans for Herman Park and then this subdivision it kind of takes away from what I thought I had. Howard Schmidt - Have you had this land surveyed in the last five/six years? Randy Hennan - No, it's in the process of being surveyed right now. Howard Schmidt - Who surveyed it five years ago? Randy Herman - Scheell and Madson. Howard Schmidt - What was it surveyed for? Randy Hennan - At the last time it was surveyed it was at the time that the rerrainder of the property was sold to Carver County for lake Minnewashta Regional Park. Howard Schmidt - I understood that this was being surveyed for the park. That's the reason I, also, was told that there would be no hones ever built across from Ire. Now all of a sudden they are corning with 16 heroes. Mayor Hamilton - I think you (Randy Hennan) need to talk with the residents. That would be helpful to you. PROPOSED lAND USE PLAN AMENDMENT AND REVISED CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT, lAKE MINNEWASHTA REGIONAL PARK, FAST OF HIGHWAY 41: - RESOLillION #84-37: Councilman Geving rroved the adoption of a resolution revising the condi tional use penni t for a portion of the Minnewashta Regional Park lying east of Highway 41 and amend the land use plan from parks/Open Space to Residential Low Density. Resolution seconded by Councilwanan Watson. 'lbe following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwc:xren Watson and SWenson, Councilrren Horn and Geving. No negative votes. M:::>tion carried. HRA APPOIN'IMENT: Mayor Hamilton nominated Jim Bohn for another five year tenn on the HRA. RESOLillION #84-38: Councilwanan SWenson moved the adoption of a resolution con- finning the appointment of Jim Bohn to the BRA. Resolution seconded by Councilman Horn. 'lbe following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilweroen Watson and Swenson, Councilrren Horn and Geving. No negative votes. M:::>tion carried. BIOMANIPUIATION, lAKE RILEY: RESOLillION #84-39:COuncilman Horn rroved the adoption of a resolution authorizing staff to proceed to see what is involved in preparing a feasibility and authorize up to $5,000 to be spent in this phase of the approval process. Resolution seconded by Councilwanan SWenson. 'lbe following voted in favor: Mayor Hamil ton, Councilweroen Watson and SWenson, Councilrren Horn and Geving. No negative votes. M:::>tion carried. Councilworran Watson rroved to adjourn. M:::>tion seconded by Councilman Horn. 'lbe following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilweroen Watson and SWenson, Councilmen Horn and Geving. No negative votes. M:::>tion carried. Don Ashworth City Manager