Loading...
CC 2008 06 23 CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING JUNE 23, 2008 Mayor Furlong called the meeting to order at 7:05 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Furlong, Councilman Litsey, Councilwoman Ernst, Councilwoman Tjornhom, and Councilman McDonald STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Laurie Hokkanen, Greg Sticha, Todd Hoffman and Sgt. Peter Anderley TH PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: INVITATION TO THE 25 ANNIVERSARY FOURTH OF JULY CELEBRATION. Mayor Furlong: Thank you and welcome to those here in the council chambers, as well as those watching at home. We’re glad that you joined us. At this time I would ask if there are any members of the council, if there are any additions or modifications to this evening’s agenda. If not then we’ll proceed with the agenda as distributed. I’d like to start this evening with a public announcement. I’m happy to invite everyone, residents, businesses, friends, neighbors to the th Chanhassen’s biggest community event each year. This year it will be bigger. It’s the 25 thrd anniversary. 25 annual July Fourth celebration. This 2 day celebration will be held on July 3 th and 4 and the festivities will be sponsored by the City of Chanhassen, the Chanhassen Area Chamber of Commerce and Visitors Bureau and the Chanhassen Rotary Club. The event kicks rd off on Thursday, July 3 at 3:30 p.m. in the afternoon at City Center Park with the business expo, food vendors, carnival rides, games, kiddie parade, street dance at 7:00 with the ever popular Casablanca Orchestra performing again this year. We’re very excited to announce that in honor of this special anniversary we are extending the celebration operating hours an additional hour until 12:00 midnight on Thursday, so stick around and enjoy a fun filled evening. On Friday morning things get going again with the adult fishing contest at Lake Ann beginning at 7:30 in the morning. For those who didn’t stay around quite til midnight the night before. The live music, the carnival rides and all follow at City Center Park as well as the Taste of Chanhassen, classic car show and the parade sponsored by the Chanhassen Rotary Club. The events will conclude with a spectacular fireworks over Lake Ann at 10:00 p.m. Because of the th 25 anniversary, that fireworks spectacular is going to be even better than usual so we invite everyone to come. Bring your families, your friends, your neighbors. Very good reason more than ever to stay in town for the Fourth of July weekend, so we look forward to seeing everyone there. And I’d like to extend a personal thanks on behalf of the council for our staff at the city, the sheriff’s department, the county, members of the Chanhassen Rotary Club, the Chamber of Commerce, all those involved. This is a huge city celebration and we are very grateful for all the efforts that everybody puts in to see that this comes off. This is going to be a fun time so I look forward to seeing everybody there. City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 CONSENT AGENDA: Mayor Furlong: What I would like to do at this time is remove, where am I? Councilwoman Ernst: 1(b). Mayor Furlong: B? Thank you Councilwoman Ernst. 1(b). We’ll move that back to, there’s not much to put it behind but we’ll move that back to new business. Pretty light agenda this evening. That item deals with the amendment of Chapter 11 of the City Code concerning firearms so we’ll pick that up separately. With that are there any other items that members of the council, others present wish to remove for separate discussion? Seeing not, is there a motion to adopt items 1(a), (c), (d) and (e)? Councilwoman Ernst: So moved. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there a second? Councilman McDonald: Second. Councilwoman Ernst moved, Councilman McDonald seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager’s recommendations: a. Approval of Minutes: -City Council Work Session Minutes dated June 9, 2008 -City Council Verbatim and Summary Minutes dated June 9, 2008 Receive Commission Minutes: -Planning Commission Work Session Minutes dated June 3, 2008 -Park and Recreation Commission Verbatim and Summary Minutes dated May 28, 2008 c. Approval of Request to Expand the Licensed Premises for Liquor Sales; Veterans Monument Fundraising Event, Saturday, August 2; Chanhassen American Legion, 290 Lake Drive East. Resolution #2008-39: d. Approve 2008 Transfer of Excess Fund Balance in General Fund. e. Approve Certificate of Compliance, Arboretum Business Park Third Addition, Steiner Development. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Mayor Furlong: At this time I’d like to invite members or guests to come forward for visitor presentations. This is an opportunity for residents, guests to address the council on matters of 2 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 interest. We can pick up, if you want to comment on the item that we’re going to pick up later, if you want to wait and do it at that time, that’d be fine. If you want to. Tim Erhart: Do it twice, now or later, I guess… Mayor Furlong: Either one is fine. Tim Erhart: Now? Alright. Thank you. I’m Tim Erhart. I live at 9611 Meadowlark Lane. South Chanhassen and I own one of the parcels that have been used for gun hunting for the last 200 years I guess in Chanhassen. It’s 120 acres. As most of you know I and my wife have had this property since 1980 and we’ve always encouraged neighbors and surrounding people to use the property freely for walking, hiking, fishing. Believe it or not there’s fishing on the ponds that are used for hunting and I welcome and enjoy. It’s important to me being an outdoorsman and a sportsman myself, I realize that other people don’t have the opportunity that I have to hunt and fish in Minnesota, particularly kids and so I really enjoy seeing kids in the neighborhood use the property. Mostly what I see of course is adults walking their dogs and enjoying getting off the couch so. I hate to see again us restrict use of the property for something I think it’s well suited for. There’s several ponds there that hold ducks in the fall and I’ve enjoyed some of them. I actually never hunted there myself. When I’ve had some of the people hunt there have given me some and I think it’s a great use and I think it’s really good for people to stay connected to the land and traditions that we’ve had as a country. Also what I, in terms of the timing of this. Now I recognize that someday you know this will be urbanized and it won’t be a reasonable use of the property but really I can’t think of a single home that’s been added in that area for 25 years and there’s no new residents planned in that area. Yes, the freeway has cut through to the north of it but that’s completely blocked. There is no, certainly nothing, absolutely nothing in the works for new residential construction there. It’s outside the MUSA until 2010. There’s one talk of course of building a clinic on the corner, which is over the hill, beyond the wetlands that they use for hunting. That certainly wouldn’t be open until, at the earliest 2010 so I, you know in that particular area I don’t see the timing. It might be a good discussion in 2 or 3 years from now. I don’t see the timing today. With regard to the opening of additional lands for bow hunting. Again people bow hunt on my property and it’s a great use. I even started last year. I would totally agree with the proposal here to add additional lands for bow hunting. Thanks. Mayor Furlong: Alright, thanks. Councilwoman Tjornhom: I have a question for Mr. Erhart. Mayor Furlong: Certainly. Councilwoman Tjornhom: If that’s okay. Real quick. Mayor Furlong: Do you mind? Tim Erhart: Yeah, of course. Councilwoman Tjornhom: How many acres is your parcel? 3 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Tim Erhart: 120. Councilwoman Tjornhom: 120. Tom Hughes: Hi. My name’s Tom Hughes. I live at 2012 Lance Avenue in Chaska and I am one of the invitees that has utilized Erhart’s farm for duck hunting. It’s been a great place close in to hunt. The area that we duck hunt is set way down on the topography of the land. There’s hills up all around it. It’s a very safe area where there’s no possible way for a shotgun pellet to you know travel anywhere endangering people. You know I do recognize that the residences around there may hear some gun fire and have called in from time to time. I don’t see that as a problem or something that’s been you know increasing or endangering anyone’s safety. I did speak with Sergeant Anderley today and asked him about some of the resident complaints and he said that from time to time they get a call about the hunting that people are generally acceptable when it’s explained to them that it is a legal use and that people are allowed to hunt there so you know I don’t see that there’s a pattern of severely increased calls. We certainly enjoy hunting there and think it’s a good use of the land. You know part of the proposal is to increase bow hunting from approximately 4 parcels it was used in before to about 115 parcels. I don’t have anything against that. You know just hope that people are responsible on the smaller acreages to down the animal before it you know ends up in somebody’s residential you know back yard or driveway so. You know again as Tim said, I haven’t seen any new residential construction in that area and would hope that you’d consider allowing hunting until that time as the residential areas encroach over there. Thank you. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Mr. Erhart, quick follow up question. I think you mentioned the timing of potential development down there. Where does that sit right now? What’s the timing? Tim Erhart: On the Fairview 10 acres, the proposals I think are going to be submitted here in the next month and you know if it goes ahead…still in the proposal stage…in 2010. But again that’s really separated from this area by large hills and totally wooded areas. I’m not even sure, I’m not sure that that makes a difference. …whether it’d impact that use. I’m not sure. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Anyone else for visitor presentations? On this item or any other item. No? Okay. Thank you very much. We’ll pick up that item, as I said earlier, under new business. LAW ENFORCEMENT/FIRE DEPARTMENT UPDATE. Sgt. Peter Anderley: Good evening Mayor, council. You have last month’s numbers in front of you. If you, like again, if there’s any questions, I certainly can try to answer that. A couple th things I’d like to talk about today is remind the 4 of July’s fast approaching here. Every year we run into the fireworks issues. Several years ago you know fireworks were, certain fireworks were made legal in the state of Minnesota such as sparklers. Some ground sparklers and things th like that that people enjoy. One of the big issues that we run into, getting close to the 4, after th the 4, is there is still a lot of illegal fireworks such as, they’re called Lady Fingers, Black Cats, bottle rockets. A good rule of thumb is if it projects into the air or goes boom, it’s probably 4 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 illegal in Minnesota. All of fireworks, including sparklers and everything are not allowed on public property, which means the parks in the city of Chanhassen. The city streets. That type of th thing. Last 4 of July everyone goes out to Lake Ann. You know very good time out there. You get some nice weather. People want to also bring the sparklers and everything out there. The reason for one they’re not allowed in city parks. The other thing is, when we do get that many people around there, we don’t want to introduce a danger that can hurt someone and prevent them from having a good time and enjoying the park so. If you’re coming out to the park, leave the sparklers, fireworks and stuff like that behind to enjoy in your own yard after the th city celebration. Second thing is I want to tell you with the 4 of July, with the parade coming up in the city, we are going to be closing several streets down around town. Encourage people to go online. You can go through the city’s web site. Get to the parade route. It’s even labeled with what times certain intersections are closed to kind of help, you know especially if you have visitors coming in for the city celebration, we’re going to, you’re going to want to make sure that they have the correct route to get there and really watch what time streets are going to close down. And we just want to, we’re closing some of them fairly early. I believe the earliest we close a couple is at 12:30 and that’s just to protect, make sure that the event goes off smooth and without any accidents. And the other, we did have thefts. It’s getting warm weather. Starting to warm up at night. Last night we did have a couple vehicles get broke into again. I believe Eden Prairie and Chaska also had a couple so we’re out there looking. Encourage people to report anything suspicious they see. Last week we had a homeowner that noticed a suspicious vehicle in front of their house. Went outside. Determined that something didn’t look right with their garage and they went an investigate. He did find a couple burglars inside of his garage and was able to call us and one person was arrested and taken into custody on that incident so that was some good work on the homeowner. I don’t encourage people to try to apprehend these themselves but certainly if you get a good description, a plate number, a clothing description, direction of travel, that type of thing and call us right away when they’re reporting things suspicious and hopefully we can have a positive outcome. And that is everything I have. Mayor Furlong: Very good. Thank you Sergeant. Any questions for Sergeant Anderley? Councilwoman Tjornhom: I have. Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Tjornhom. Councilwoman Tjornhom: I’ve had a couple comments from residents that live around, surrounding area on lakes and particularly by the boat launches. What are the rules and policies for parking their trucks and trailers because I’ve noticed even along 101 last week there was a boat and a trailer parked on 101 because the boat launch or the ramp, or the parking lot was full. Sgt. Peter Anderley: Yep. In particularly the incident on Highway 101, as long as you’re not blocking any turn lanes, lane of traffic or anything like that, it is legal to park along that road. As long as they’re not blocking any kind of lane of traffic. There is a rule you know they can’t, they have to be so many feet away from the intersection. That’s for the purpose of, for visibility wise and to my knowledge some of the problems I’ve seen, that hasn’t been a real big issue. I know it has been in the past where people will park right up close to the intersection and if that is the case, you know the deputies can issue a citation for that. But for the most part they have been 5 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 parking legally there, and they are able to park along that road as long as they’re not blocking that turn lane or the actual drive lane. If you look at Lotus Lake, you know South Shore the city does have an ordinance that does not allow trailers to be parked on that city street. To my knowledge I guess that had, I don’t know if that’s been a big issue this year or not. It also becomes an issue, like I said, in the parking lot. When the parking lot’s get full, people do look for places to park and ultimately they get out to 101 where they can park and that’s why you’ll see some trailers parked out there. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council members. Sergeant and I traveled the south Lotus Lake area after lunch today and we will be putting a sign to help identify the distance that you need to be away from that intersection so you can see. But 101 is a state highway and they can park out there. It does meet the distances but if they get too close to that intersection, as Sergeant Anderley stated, you know they could get a ticket. Right now it’s, they’ve kind of been real close to blocking that intersection but we’ll put a sign out to identify where that no parking would start. But there is signs in the neighborhood identifying no parking in the neighborhood. We haven’t seen any of that. It’s basically been people parking out on State Highway 101. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any other questions on this topic or any questions for Sergeant Anderley? Todd Gerhardt: Just one. Sergeant we’re now tracking warnings. Did you want to make a comment on that in the report? Sgt. Peter Anderley: Yeah I can. There should be an attached memo from our Record Supervisor. We are also, we have started a written warning program and also a warning, a way of tracking warnings through our MDT system on our computers in our squad car. If a deputy stops someone and chooses to give them a warning, that is now captured along with, real similar to the way we capture citations at this time. So you’ll start seeing that more and more as more deputies get used to coding it that way. We never used to code the warnings. We just cleared a traffic stop and it was never documented whether a warning or citation was issued until a citation got down to records. Where now when we clear them, we’re coding them either with a warning or a citation and that is the reason why you’ll start to see them show up now on the records. On the numbered document. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Very good, thank you. Chief Geske, good evening. Chief Gregg Geske: Good evening. I wanted to start with, we just recently installed a couple of new laptops in our incident command vehicles. This is money that was used from our fundraiser dollars and the laptops are used in our incident command vehicles for basically for pre-plans. For any business that we’re responding to, we can pull up the address. We can get locations of hazardous materials that are on there. Other information. Key holders and stuff like that so it’s an addition that’s been made to our vehicles that we’ve been looking at and it should help us out in responses, especially to businesses and ones that pre-plan in the future so we’ll make a donation I think is the way we do that to the city from the fund raiser account so they’re the city’s property but we have added those to our incident command vehicles. We will be involved th in the 4 of July celebration. We’re always involved in the kiddie parade leading the parade and 6 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 th blocking off some streets. And then on the 4 of July we generally have a few trucks involved in the parade which we start out in the morning and decorate. We also grill up some burgers and stuff for the city workers that are working that day and for the deputies and stuff that are on hand so we make a good time of it that day also so. We were involved with the dive call over in Waconia here. One of our divers went over to help out in that so I guess I’m just going to continue to stress water safety and the use of life jackets and such out on the water. And as it warms up now it’s warm enough that people are getting out on the water apparently from the vehicles being parked out on 101 so that ties all together with that. That’s all I have tonight. Mayor Furlong: Very good. Thank you. Any questions for the chief? No? Very good, thank you. Chief Gregg Geske: Thanks. Mayor Furlong: Appreciate your service. CONSENT AGENDA: 1(B). APPROVE AMENDMENT TO CHAPTER 11 OF THE CHANHASSEN CITY CODE CONCERNING FIREARMS. Mayor Furlong: Why don’t we just as a background Mr. Gerhardt, Mr. Hoffman, maybe we can start with a brief staff report on the issues raised and summarized. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council. Our Park and Rec Director, Todd Hoffman has been working on this and I think he’s got some statistical information he can provide you and some of the maps of the areas that we’re talking about so I think Todd’s prepared to speak on the item. Todd Hoffman: Thank you Mr. Gerhardt, members of the council and Mayor and guests. Tim and Tom. Thanks for coming in this evening. First of all let me say that I’m probably one of the strongest advocates of continuing to have hunting within the community for both recreation and as a form of wildlife control. Wildlife population control. Primarily Canadian Goose population and White Tail Deer population. History, or the community has a strong tradition of allowing hunting both by firearms in the past and then bow and arrow, and then a variety of different weapons inbetween. The history of the 21 years that I’ve been here. The hunting zones used to extend all the way north of Highway 5 and the hunting map looked much different than it does currently today, back in those days. Much of the community was open to hunting. This is the current hunting zone map, as people use it today, and to call your attention. The dark areas are areas currently permitted for firearm hunting in the community. This is the Erhart Farm. The Klingelhutz Farm. And then this is the Seminary Fen property that was just purchased from the Wetterling’s, and these are the three properties we’ll be discussing primarily this evening. And so 20 years ago this extended all the way up into the Lake Ann area, and so there was much more hunting opportunity. As development has continued…in the community, that has gone slowly but surely down as we continue through that process. This is the really the responsibility of the chief law enforcement officer to sign off on these permits. This is a permit, and the permitting process is a permit to discharge a firearm. We don’t control or mandate hunting in the community. That’s regulated by the State of Minnesota and DNR. What we control is the ability to discharge a firearm. Without this permit you cannot discharge a bow and arrow or you 7 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 cannot discharge a gun within the community for any purpose, hunting or any other purpose, target practice or what have you. I am involved and primarily because the past public hearings for this, for the shooting permit were held at the Park and Recreation Commission level and then passed on up to the City Council. Today Mr. Gerhardt and I did trade some emails today. I did speak with John Klingelhutz and John is not in favor of restricting guns either at this point in the city, and we’ll talk about each individual property as we go through. So again we have 3 parcels that are currently involved in gun hunting and the first one is the Wetterling property or Emerald Properties. And this was the Emerald Ventures property was just sold to the Department of Natural Resources. About 100 acres so now the DNR holds the ownership in that property. They will not be signing off on hunting permits. Part of the property south of Highway 212, old 212 down in this area will be combined with the Reggae Wildlife Management Area, which is a whole another conversation but we do have a wildlife management area, or a WMA, DNR regulated within our community where hunting, including with firearms but small shot only is allowed by DNR regulations. So this one last year was granted 18 shooting permits by guns, so 18 shooting permits were granted for this property by Mr. Wetterling last year for guns and again those will no longer get applicable because the ownership changed to the DNR. Second property as we move north. Mayor Furlong: Excuse me. Mr. Hoffman, a question for you. The wildlife management area. Is that area, do they allow hunting with firearms? Todd Hoffman: They do. They allow hunting by bow and arrow and hunting for small game only with firearms, or with small shot. They do not allow any deer hunting with slug guns. Mayor Furlong: Small game. Would that also include duck or water fowl? Todd Hoffman: Yes. Mayor Furlong: So that is available and the proposed changes wouldn’t change that, correct? Todd Hoffman: Correct. And the City does not mandate or regulate that you need a shooting permit in that area. You can hunt there as a citizen of, any citizen can go there and hunt there without a shooting permit from the city. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Todd Hoffman: And that property is again across, this would be part of it and then it goes into Shakopee then in the far south reaches of our community. The next property is this property, the Klingelhutz property. John and Doreen Klingelhutz. And that lies on Bluff Creek Boulevard. Bluff Creek Drive. Highway 212 is this new line on the north side of the property. This is the freeway. Now it comes to a new bridge. And this property was granted 20 permits for hunting with gun. Primarily for two reasons, and I spoke to John about that today. They goose hunted in this field, really what was left of it which is primarily within the right-of-way of Highway 212 or owned by the State of Minnesota and so that use will no longer continue. And then they gun hunt or slug hunt here down in the valley, and so some of those permittees are up here hunting geese. Some are down slug hunting deer in this valley. What we’re showing here in a dashed 8 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 line is generally the restrictions in the hunting permit talk about 500 feet within, you can’t hunt within 500 feet of a road or 500 feet of a park or a trail or adjacent building. So you have a golf course. Again this kind of a, you know there’s no dwellings over here but you have a fairway here so that gives you a general feeling of how far that 500 feet is. It’s not a strict boundary. It just gives you a general feeling. Mayor Furlong: So if I could. The dotted line or dashed line in the center of the picture there, within that area would be allowed? Todd Hoffman: Within that area and that could extend down into this region as well. Once you get into this region you’re getting you know, this is a private property. There is no buildings or dwellings. You wouldn’t want to get close to that fairway because there’s obviously golfers there at the same time you could be slug hunting. Councilwoman Ernst: So just for clarification Mayor, when you’re talking about be allowed, do you mean allowed by the State of Minnesota or are you saying? Mayor Furlong: Well I think as point of clarification, the 500 foot requirement, that’s part of state statute or the DNR? Todd Hoffman: It’s part both. DNR and then the City of Chanhassen as well. Mayor Furlong: Okay. So is that 500 a state requirement or what, is it by statute? Do we know? Sgt. Peter Anderley: The DNR has regulations that you cannot discharge a firearm within 500 feet of an occupied dwelling. Around livestock. That type of thing. Mayor Furlong: And excuse me Sergeant, that’s based upon if you purchase a license to hunt. Sgt. Peter Anderley: Yeah, that’s required by the State of Minnesota. Mayor Furlong: You are required by that to legally hunt. Okay. Sgt. Peter Anderley: And currently the current map and the current city ordinance, if I’m correct, also states that 500 feet. That’s into the one that’s in effect now. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Todd Hoffman: So and in addition to that there were other bow and arrow permits issued on both these properties as well. They’re just speaking to gun permits this evening. So that’s 20 permits granted on this property last year for gun hunting. And then the last property again is the Erhart parcel located here. It’s the largest parcel of the three. On the Erhart parcel there was 4 gun permits granted last year. This is the pond that both Mr. Erhart and Mr. Hughes referenced. It’s an elongated 120 acre property, and again this is just a guideline to start showing you when you bring boundaries in from houses and from roads, what 500 feet does. It does not mean that that’s the only area that you can hunt on that property. In 2005 we had 85 gun permits within the 9 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 community. In 2006, 50 gun permits within the community. Last year 40 gun permits. And then if you take out the permits from the Wetterling’s, again that’s going to go down to probably 22, 25 permits if you’re on the same type of scenario coming in the next year depending on what these property owners do. In the past that number was up into the middle hundreds 10 years ago or so. So those are, that’s the pieces of information we have. We’re getting down to the last few pieces of property. Could gun hunting still be safe in these properties? Absolutely. What have we heard as a city staff over the years? People are awfully surprised when they hear, they don’t expect new residents when they hear gun fire going off, primarily on a weekend. That’s when the most activity’s occurring. There have been very few new homes in this area so yes, these people in these two particular properties are accustomed to the activity currently so could the council extend it? Yes. The primary driver behind this is the construction of Highway 212/312 has taken out a lot of the areas that were traditionally used for gun hunting in the community. For both geese and deer so that’s the information I have to present to the council. I’ll be glad to answer any questions. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Hoffman? Mr. Gerhardt, one of the comments made by Mr. Erhart was the timing of the municipal services. Utility services with the extension of the MUSA line. I think their property is in the 2010. Todd Gerhardt: That’s correct Mayor. Mayor Furlong: Area. What about the Klingelhutz property, do you know? Todd Gerhardt: That would be at a minimum 2015. Mayor Furlong: Okay, probably because I think it must be 2015. It’s not 2010 because we went down… Todd Gerhardt: Right. Mayor Furlong: Alright. Any other questions or thoughts? Councilman McDonald: I’ve got a question. And this is just because I’m not familiar with you know as far as hunting. What all you’re using and everything. What kind of weapons are we talking about? 22’s? Shot guns? What are the restrictions with the 500 feet and everything? Sgt. Peter Anderley: Well the 500 feet actually applies to hunting in general. The thing is you know if you’re shooting bird shot, you know ducks and geese, you know your distance is maybe a couple hundred yards per shot. Now if you’re shooting a slug for deer, I mean that, the slug you know is known to travel a mile and still hit things. There’s some muzzle loaders for big game that they’re using. Those again, the distance there varies and you can actually go much greater than the 500 foot rule, especially a shotgun slug. You know almost all shotgun slugs, no matter what size you use, is going to go farther than 500 feet that’s set up. So that’s, there’s a variety of different guns. I think when we looked through, we kind of just flipped through. There’s everything from black powder guns to shot guns being used. 10 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Councilman McDonald: Okay. As far as using guns, we put no restrictions on the type of gun you’re using? Sgt. Peter Anderley: No. We just, we allow, the State of Minnesota has some restrictions depending on what kind of game you’re hunting, and also obviously the shot gun requirement for you know deer. You know and they use rifles in northern Minnesota. Mayor Furlong: Excuse me, to clarify then in terms of type of firearm. Are rifles allowed in any of these areas in Chanhassen? Sgt. Peter Anderley: No they’re not. Mayor Furlong: Mr. Hoffman, you’re shaking your head. Todd Hoffman: No they’re not. Mayor Furlong: Okay. And so for deer hunting it would be slugs? Todd Hoffman: Yeah, shot gun slugs. Mayor Furlong: Would be allowed, or bow and arrow. Sgt. Peter Anderley: Or black powder. Mayor Furlong: Or black powder. Sgt. Peter Anderley: The other thing is, you know I think it’s rifles. If you were shooting small game, a 22 rifle would be allowed to be used for small game. Mayor Furlong: Alright. Councilwoman Ernst you had a question. Councilwoman Ernst: Actually I didn’t really, I was going to clarify that as well with the rifle because I know the most powerful firearm that we allow is a shotgun, right? Isn’t that the most powerful that we’ll go. Sgt. Peter Anderley: That’s allowed by the State? Yes. Councilwoman Ernst: Actually I have a comment though I really believe after further conversation that I suppose you want me to wait to make a motion. Before we have further discussion. Mayor Furlong: Yeah, let’s make sure we have all the questions out, at least at this point. There may be other questions as well. Any other questions? Tim Erhart: Mayor, could I make a comment here? 11 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Mayor Furlong: Question. Tim Erhart: You know really I’m quite frankly, I was just talking to Tom. We’re surprised that you allow slugs and 22’s in the city. I mean I think that if you wanted to shut that down, that would be fine with us. I think we’re talking about, we’re talking about shot guns for ducks and birds. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Councilman Litsey: Which prevails? If the DNR allows it? State statute allows it? Can we shut down specifically to guns? We can? Okay. Todd Hoffman: And that comment would be the exact opposite for Mr. Klingelhutz. His primary concern is to save the ability to slug hunt for deer. He has a very good deer valley. Mayor Furlong: Alright. Any other questions at this point? Councilman McDonald: Well again, anyone trying to get a permit would have to come up and tell you what they’re going to be doing. What weapons they’re going to be using. Where they’re going to hunt so you would have a good idea of what the general hazards or safety concerns would be for a particular area they’re going to hunt in? Sgt. Peter Anderley: Yes. Currently they would come in and they would fill out the application. They also mark on the map, usually I do talk to them and find out exactly where they are going to be hunting and what they do list on there what type of weapon they’ll be using and what they will be hunting that the law will permit. Councilman Litsey: But you can’t, as long as it conforms with the statute regulations though, you can’t deny them access to that property based on the weapon they’re going to use right now because there’s not, if it conforms with the existing body of law, they can use it. Sgt. Peter Anderley: Correct. Councilman Litsey: Unless we decide to add another layer over that that would restrict the types of guns used, but at this point you can’t deny a permit based on it based on, as long as they legally have a right to use that type of gun. Sgt. Peter Anderley: In the city. And as long as it meets the safety, the zones of 500 feet. Councilman Litsey: Right. Councilman McDonald: Well of all the times that this has been going on, especially down in the wildlife management area that the state oversees, I take it at that point they’re allowing shot guns with slugs and are they allowing rifles also down in that area? 12 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Todd Hoffman: They are not allowing shot guns with slugs. Only small shot. Fine shot for water fowl or small game. Councilman McDonald: Okay, so they’re not allowing for deer hunting down in their area? Todd Hoffman: Bow and arrow only. Councilman McDonald: Bow and arrow only? Okay. I’ll wait. I think I’m thinking about this and yeah, it looks as though there may be a little bit of a conflict with one of the landowners but if the State’s following certain guidelines for safety, why wouldn’t we? But I’ll wait until the rest of the council weighs in. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any other questions at this point for staff or others? Councilman Litsey: Todd you basically, the reason for bringing this up and talking about it just with the freeway coming through and development and so forth, just very limited parcels available anymore really to hunt with firearms anymore? Todd Hoffman: Correct, yeah. This is a responsibility to those who have called in over the years and inquiring why we’re still allowing gun fire to take place within the community. It seems like it’s past it’s time. If you talk to most of the people that have had the ability to hunt, most of them would agree with that statement. That it’s probably long overdue that hunting in the community stops with guns but, and Chaska hasn’t allowed it for a number of years. Eden Prairie was done with it a long time ago so, and really the reason it’s lasted so long within our community is because of the Highway 212/312 right-of-way and the big chunk of open space that that left within the city. Mayor Furlong: Any other questions at this time? If not, how about some thoughts? Comments. Councilwoman Tjornhom? Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yeah, or did you want to go ahead Jerry? Councilman McDonald: No, go ahead. Councilwoman Tjornhom: No? Mayor Furlong: You guys let me know what you want to do. Councilman McDonald: Ladies first. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Councilman Litsey: This is an issue when it came before us in work session, not being a hunter and you know it was kind of hard for me to understand what was exactly being taken away I guess from those that are hunters. And I have a real issue about public safety. I want to make sure that that comes first in any decision I make, whether it’s hunting or it’s snowmobiling or it’s 13 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 whatever we do. But then again I also think that people have a certain, well they have obviously a right to enjoy their property and if they can do it safely and if the public isn’t in harm’s way, then I don’t understand why we wouldn’t let them do it. And I think we’ve talked about a lot of options here tonight as far as restricting what types of guns are used or how we would go about maybe being more creative and allowing land owners the right to hunt on their land while making sure we’ve dotted our I’s and crossed our T’s as far as public safety goes and so I don’t know if we need to maybe talk about it a little bit more or if we need to look at this at a year to year basis. You know allow it this year the way it has been and review it. It seems to me this is kind of an issue that’s taking care of itself with development. If you watched as Todd’s presentation, he demonstrated how there was certain parcels but with development that the hunting went away and I think Tim, one of your parcels is probably, you know one of those precious parcels that still haven’t gone away and maybe it needs further consideration to allow you to still use your land the way you always have. And also I think it’s an issue of wildlife control. I mean we have a lot of deer in our town and I think that’s one way of humanely controlling that wildlife population instead of having a resident hit it with their car or you know any other property damage so I’m willing to either look at this again and figure out a way to make it work, or to just keep bringing this back as more development comes on line. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Other thoughts or comments. Councilwoman Ernst: Todd, you stated earlier that if we were to go back to the original ordinance, of course there would be some changes in there but that would not create an unsafe environment, is that correct? I mean if we were within the state regulations. You know the 500 feet from the. Todd Hoffman: And we would stay with what the current map is today with the two parcels remaining? Councilwoman Ernst: Well I’m thinking we’re talking 3 parcels, right? With the change in the one that I saw with the dotted line. Todd Hoffman: Just down to two. The Wetterling or the Emerald Ventures property will be, is not DNR owned so it’s down to the Klingelhutz and DNR parcel. Councilwoman Ernst: Okay. Okay. So taking that into consideration, I mean we haven’t had any issues in the past as far as creating an unsafe environment, and I do believe that if we continue to leave it like it is and review it as development occurs on those parcels, which I think we will need to do, but I do believe that the way, as it exists today that that’s the way we should leave it and take it back to it’s original state. With the change for the bow and arrow. To increase. Todd Hoffman: To add it? Councilwoman Ernst: Yeah. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Other thoughts? Comments? 14 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Councilman McDonald: Yeah I guess you know the questions I was asking, I was trying to get a feel for how the State manages their area. I think I would go along with using that as a guide which would say fine to shot guns and those kind of things would be okay, and then I would agree with Councilwoman Tjornhom that we ought to probably look at it on a yearly basis. It is dependent upon development. As that begins to creep in I think we need to you know at some point it’s going to get cut off but for right now I would be in favor of continuing with the shot guns. I wouldn’t want to put restrictions on anything more powerful than that just because of where those particular, well especially the one parcel is in relation to 212 and those things, I think we’re asking for trouble there but otherwise yeah. Allow shot guns on those parcels and relook at it on a yearly basis. Mayor Furlong: If I may follow up question. Mr. Hoffman, part of the items we talked about was expanding bow and arrow hunting for deer across the city. Right now, under current ordinance, are these 3 parcels still the same 3 parcels that allow bow and arrow or are there more? It looked like there was some more on. Todd Hoffman: Yeah, there are additional parcels and they include. Mayor Furlong: Up north. Todd Hoffman: Here and…nursery that’s been added up in this area. This parcel. This is the Gorra, Holasek. Mayor Furlong: And that’s under current ordinance, correct? Todd Hoffman: Current ordinance, yeah. Mayor Furlong: What would the modified ordinance do in terms of. Todd Hoffman: It would expand it quite significantly. Mayor Furlong: Do you have a map with that expansion of that? Todd Hoffman: It’s in the packet right here. The shaded parcels are all parcels over 10 acres, and so that includes a good portion of the community. Now some of these are owned by Arboretum, parks and other things so those would come back out of there but this would extend bow hunting up in north of Highway 5 in a variety of areas. Primarily around Lake Ann and then the Lake Minnewashta area. Mayor Furlong: Subject to the property owner’s approval. Do we have any sense in terms of demand for bow hunting opportunities in the area? Todd Hoffman: Just a sense if you approve this, you would see a significant increase in bow hunting within the community. Reduction of the deer population. 15 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Sgt. Peter Anderley: And I can comment. Last year, kind of going off last year’s map. I probably had 5 to 6 people that I did have to turn down just because it didn’t fit into the ordinance for bow hunting on pieces of property that you know under the new regulations would allow them in there. So there was a few that we did end up turning away and discouraging them from hunting a piece of property just because it didn’t fit into our current map. Mayor Furlong: Okay. And distance traveled for an arrow, how does, do you have any estimates on those? Sgt. Peter Anderley: You know it’s pretty short. I mean you know 100 yards maybe at most, if you’re shooting up into the air. Mayor Furlong: 300 feet. Sgt. Peter Anderley: Yeah. You know most of the, I would say you’re pretty safe with the deer hunt as far as keeping that arrow in a fairly safe distance. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Councilman Litsey: Well I’ll preface it by saying that I’ve enjoyed hunting over the years. Not always very successful at it but I do enjoy it. Hunting. I just think that the time has come and gone for firearms hunting in Chanhassen. There’s just so few parcels left that really make any sense at all. And even those, I don’t know a real compelling arguments anymore to have firearms hunting on them. I do like the idea of expanding bow hunting. I think it’s important to control the deer population in this community, especially from a safety standpoint. And I think in terms of firearms, you know safety trumps the few parcels left that firearms hunting is available and so I’m in favor of what’s been proposed here. I think it would make good sense for this community as it grows out, but I, particularly I want to wait for something to happen before we take action. I think the community with the freeway now and so forth going through it, it’s just, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense anymore to have firearms hunting in Chanhassen. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. You ask 4 people, you get about 6 different opinions so. Just like what’s going to happen to the economy I guess. Challenging situation I guess here. I look at these, like I’ve described it before, some of our growing pains as we continue to grow and develop as a city. These are some of the issues that need to be dealt with. They’re not easy. The question is usually going to be when, not if. We’ve already seen the if, or the when has come for some properties and so we’re down to a few more properties. I think the public safety is a primary factor that all levels of government deal with. Providing for and protecting personal property rights are something that also we have to deal with and recognize. For my standpoint I am always concerned when we as a government start restricting private property rights use. I think that is something that we have to do very, very carefully with much thought and at a very slow pace. That being said, my thoughts here, having heard from different members of the council as well as staff and residents is to try to work towards or move towards a plan that eventually is going to result in what we all know is going to happen, and that is the elimination of hunting on these properties and whether or not we take steps forward now from a restriction standpoint on types of firearms. It was suggested perhaps hunting with slugs may be beyond it’s 16 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 time. We probably are given the distance travel there. Obviously those are used for larger game. For your deer hunting. The offset there is expanded bow and arrow hunting opportunities for deer throughout the city so I think at least there there’s, if we’re restricting one type of hunting from a private property use, we’re expanding it in other areas and I see that as something that perhaps we can move forward. With regard to the small game and water fowl, there we’re really just dealing with one or two properties that are indeed outside of our current development area. Those are coming in relatively quickly and I think very often when we pass ordinances they take effect upon passage. There’s nothing that says that has to be the case. They can take effect upon other certain events occurring or the passage of time. Moving forward with it, if we want to move forward with the restrictions on all hunting, firearm hunting in the areas proposed, one option may be to set a future date for those to come effective. Whether that’s the you know, allowing one more hunting season so that perhaps a January 1, ’09 date or perhaps the time that the property is brought into the MUSA area would be another process that takes place. If development occurs, subdivisions, those types of things, may be other opportunities that would signal that it’s time for that to happen. So I throw those out as options. I think with regard to something that to me at this time makes some sense from a public safety standpoint is the elimination of the slug hunting…for the areas that we’ve talked about. Especially given the expansion of the bow and arrow. I think that is something that makes sense to go forward with, even with the proximity. Especially because of the proximity. Even the distances, when I hear the distance that a slug can travel, no one would purposely intend for it to travel that far but it happens and one thing that they teach in firearm safety is once the trigger’s pulled, you can’t put anything back and that’s the issue we’re dealing with. So I think, obviously I think tonight we’re going to need to, unless we can come up to some agreement. I think if we can give council, or staff some direction to re-write the ordinance here, I think it makes some sense to do that. So ultimately I think tonight we’re going to move forward with tabling this would be my suggestion, and then bring it back with some potential changes. My thoughts would be, as I said, certainly if not going forward with what’s been proposed, allowing some point in the future where it takes effect for all firearms, but make that contingent upon other events. Whether that’s expansion of the MUSA. Subdivision of the property or other types of events. This is my thought there so I’ll throw that back to the council and also with my comments about going forward regardless with the restrictions on firearms for large game, and off setting that with the expansion of the bow and arrow hunting area across the city. Councilman Litsey: I guess one thing I’d like, if we’re going to look at limiting slug hunting, then we should also look at, or just say that you can also use rifle, 22 for small game in certain areas and then, a 22 can travel a long distance too so maybe we should look at at least both those items together and. Mayor Furlong: And I don’t know, I guess the question is what sort of demand is there for permits for slugs versus the 22? The small game. Todd Hoffman: Mostly slug by a long shot. Mayor Furlong: Okay. 17 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Councilman Litsey: I mean if that’s the rationale for, I would say for the shotgun restriction, then I think we should be consistent and say any potential firearms that travels a considerable distance is lethal and out of control so I think we should. Not out of control but more difficult to control. The safety factor so. Mayor Furlong: And my question was relating to level of impact. Councilman Litsey: Okay. Mayor Furlong: Other thoughts and comments or I guess reaction to… Councilman McDonald: Well I guess the thing is, we’re at a very broad spectrum here. I mean we’re at one end we’re saying everything should go along as is, where at the other end saying that everything ought to come to a screeching halt. Mayor Furlong: Welcome to the City Council. Councilman McDonald: And I guess what my question is, how do we end up resolving that? I mean we can go back and we can ask staff to give us information concerning potential problems with you know ranges of certain weapons or something, and then make a decision based upon that. Or I guess…give our best shot at this and then discuss it. Mayor Furlong: Well I think it’s fair for us at this point, this is my response to that would be is I think staff has given us their information and their opinion. We’ve received input as well from members of the public. I should say in fairness I forgot to that I received at least 1, maybe 2 emails from residents that, in response to seeing the actions that we took that encouraged the council to go forward with the proposed restrictions to restrict firearm hunting in the city as it’s being proposed by the staff tonight so there are members of the public that also I believe would concur with what staff has recommended here. So the real question I guess for us tonight is, is you know we can take no action on the proposal, and that is a default. Everything stays as it is. We can direct staff to come back with some revised language based upon some certain guidelines that we as a council believe is appropriate. Or we could modify or amend what the proposed language in front of us this evening and go ahead and pass something. I think those are our options. Councilman McDonald: Okay, well I’m all in favor of tabling it, and you know I’m not totally in favor of completely going, banning it right now but I am in favor of restricting it, and I think that that’s what I would rather see is that there’s restrictions with a time limit, as you talk about. Whether it’s the first of the year or if it’s the MUSA line. I mean those are things we can discuss but at some point firearms are not going to be allowed within the city, and maybe that’s one of the things we need to put into this, and that’s something I’d like to hear some more feedback from the other council members. Also from city staff as to realistically how much longer can we allow hunting within the city? Councilman Litsey: Well I was just going to say, Councilman McDonald you know some of the confusing aspects of this and therein lies some of the problem is that you have such a small area 18 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 now that we’re even talking about that it’s kind of confusing and to keep track of that kind of stuff and is it really worth carving out some little small separate you know guidelines or, for just something that’s probably not going to be there that long anyway in terms of being available for hunting and I just think that, as you said, I think the time’s come. It’s gone now and, in terms of firearms in the city and hunting. Bow hunting’s a whole different thing. I think that makes sense. Expanding it. We’re actually giving people better access to hunting in the city in that respect. We’re just delaying you know something that I think should really be done now and I’m in support of what’s before us. It doesn’t sound like there’s enough to pass it at this time so I guess we’ve got to go back and talk about it more but I think we’re going to get bogged down in a lot of details and more restrictions actually that are going to be confusing to people. Councilwoman Ernst: Just a little FYI. I did a little bit of research on this today. A bow and arrow travels, as I understand an arrow travels 360 feet per second, and a slug travels approximately 1,250 feet per second. Whether that means anything to anybody I think, but somebody had asked that question about the speed. But I would say that I am in favor of taking, like I had indicated earlier, taking this ordinance back to it’s original state. If there’s not enough support on this tonight, I would be in favor of tabling it as well but I really don’t think that, I’m not hearing that anything is broken at this point and I don’t want to get to the point where it’s broken, but I do think that if we take it in it’s original state today and follow the state guidelines and then review this as development occurs on these parcels, I would totally be in favor of that. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Councilwoman Ernst: Did that make sense? You kind of rolled your eyes a little bit. It didn’t make sense to you. Mayor Furlong: Just to clarify, you’d be in favor of not changing the current ordinance? Is that what I heard you say? Councilwoman Ernst: As it exists today, with the exception of making sure that we’re following the state regulations. Mayor Furlong: Which our current ordinance does. Is my understanding. Councilman Litsey: Well state law would always trump ordinance. Councilwoman Ernst: And increasing the bow and arrow. Expanding the bow and arrow to the 150. Mayor Furlong: Are we all in agreement in expanding the bow and arrow? Councilman McDonald: Yes. Mayor Furlong: Okay. So in terms of firearm hunting then. I just wanted to clarify that so we don’t keep, if we’ve got something we agree on, let’s not keep talking about it. With firearms 19 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 you’re saying no change to the current ordinance because that does meet state statute obviously. Or that’s. Councilwoman Ernst: Right. Councilman Litsey: Is that, not to put the sheriff’s department in the middle of it, and I know you can’t speak to the sheriff himself but do you have a position on it in terms of just purely from a law enforcement standpoint or? Sgt. Peter Anderley: Well I can say that the current, if you look at that current map, those spots are very small. When you look at the number of permits that are applied, and I guess I don’t remember how many people Mr. Erhart…on your property, but one of the other ones, you know if you look at that, and let’s say it was 10 guys deer hunting. It’s a pretty small area to put that many people in there. 312 was a big impact. Last year I went down and specifically spoke to the construction workers that were working on the 312 project in relationship, because they were down there working while the shooting was going on behind them, and they had the concern at that time because they were working on the project. Making sure that they were far enough away and everything. At that time I did speak with a couple of the hunters down there and they were fully aware that there’s not cars on that road but there is people working there, and the agreement was reached then that that was going to be acceptable for last year. And now my main concern is, is really the slug hunting is the biggest concern. It’s a big chunk for deer hunting and then with all the vehicles on 312, I guess I don’t want to see a ricochet or something like that go. You’re not always going to know where that slug goes and you do, with the amount of traffic on 312 now, we’re passing a lot of people pretty close to this open hunting and you know granted there is other places in the state that also have hunting next to highways and things like that, and it is the responsibility of the shooter to know when he pulls the trigger but it just, it is a very small area. The slug hunting I guess is, in my opinion, is a safety concern too and some of the people, and again there are people out walking. That type of activities also going on in the city that you probably normally wouldn’t be going on a private property anywhere else. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. That’s good clarifying information. Mr. Erhart’s piece of property. What I heard the comment here tonight that you were surprised that’s allowed. I assume you don’t allow slug hunting or rifle on your property? Tim Erhart: No, I wouldn’t. Mayor Furlong: Yeah. I guess my question is, with someone duck hunting there, is there a chance that the shot could reach 312? Tom Hughes: No. The effective range for the shot guns are generally 50 yards. In my opinion a bow is lethal at a distance father than a shot gun. I mean a bow at 40-50 pounds pull which is common for deer hunting, is going to go several hundred yards. I would say at least over 100 yards, at the right angle it would travel a far greater distance than shot gun pellets. As far as I’m aware there’s 3 people that hunt ducks down on Tim’s farm with shot guns and you know like I said, the topography. The ponds are set down. There’s berms way up around them and there’s absolutely no danger to people off of the property. 20 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Mayor Furlong: And I appreciate that. I guess when I said get more information on it, clarification of that, just to be sure because even if it’s not. I mean lethal range is one thing. I would have concern if we actually just had a shot raining down on cars driving… Tom Hughes: No… Mayor Furlong: …or other places and I guess that’s something that we can clarify or evaluate because I mean then, regardless of lethal, there’s still, that to me would be a concern. What I’m, I guess what, if I can try to move us towards something here. If not, the ordinance as proposed, fully restricting shot and slugs and to your point rifles I think would make sense moving forward, especially with the expansion that we all agree on with the bow and deer. And then again, before going forward would just like to understand distance in terms of where on Mr. Erhart’s property hunting occurs. Would occur and what the range is that it could reach. And not from a lethal standpoint, because obviously that wouldn’t be acceptable for anybody but even just the range. And then whether or not we would continue for a period of time, and to me I’m going to get back to him and I think Mr. McDonald you, it sounded like you concurred. Let’s set a time anyway. Whether it’s a date specific. 1-1-09 would provide another season this year. Expansion of MUSA to the area. Perhaps that’s 2, if not 1, depending upon how this might occur. But, and I think that is a way we can try to find this balance. That I think we’re all looking for, as a way to try to move something forward. That’s I guess what I would propose at this point, but before I do that I’d like to make sure that we know for certain what the distance of, potentially if we continue to allow, and if we restricted slugs and rifles, I believe that would then allow shot guns with shot would be I assume, pistols and other things are already restricted by some other means, is that a fair statement? So we basically we would, if we went this route for another year, we’d be looking at basically small, medium and water fowl with shot guns in those areas that it would be allowed. Sgt. Peter Anderley: We certainly could put that in the, revise the ordinance just to allow small game hunting. Mayor Furlong: Without rifles. Sgt. Peter Anderley: Without rifles. Councilman Litsey: Pretty much just bird shot. Sgt. Peter Anderley: Yeah, real similar to what the State does down in the wildlife area. Mayor Furlong: Okay, I’m sorry. Sgt. Peter Anderley: Real similar to what the State does down in the wildlife area. They just allow shotguns and small shot for small game. Mayor Furlong: Okay. They don’t allow 22’s down there, rifles either? No? Okay. So I think if that’s the direction that, I mean Councilwoman Ernst you’d be in favor of that? 21 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Councilwoman Ernst: Yeah I’m, yeah. Yes I would. Mayor Furlong: If that’s the direction we can go. Let’s do that, but let’s also make sure before we just assume we’re doing that, I do want to verify that what we’ve heard tonight, just that I don’t believe but I’d like to have it verified. Distance. Potential distance traveled given topography as well as just the physics. To the best of our ability. Estimate what that could be. And then in terms of the timeframe that people are agreeing either a January 1, ’09 or an extension of MUSA would be a, to me I think both of those are probably going to be pretty close together given what’s likely happening with this area. Councilwoman Ernst: I’m sorry Mayor, January ’09 for what? Mayor Furlong: Before we move forward with complete restriction on shot guns. Councilman Litsey: Talk anything about, no pun, well I guess a pun intended, trigger that would trigger that to happen which would be. Mayor Furlong: Typically we can, right. Typically when we pass an ordinance, and I think even this one was written as such that the ordinance becomes effective on the date it’s adopted. There’s nothing that says we have to do that. I think for some of these things we’d want to make those concurrent with adoption. The rifle and shotgun restrictions, or the slug restriction. But with return to the small game water fowl, we can put that at a future date. That does a couple things. I think it provides some balance and some compromise but at the same time it lets people know… Councilman Litsey: I like that idea. Mayor Furlong: And so whether that’s 1-1-09 or whether that’s the planned expansion of the MUSA to this area which is 2010, you know 2 seasons rather than 1. I think some of that may be even dependent upon you know other items that might come before us here in the next period of time. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor would you have that language for both properties? In this case. Mayor Furlong: I think, I don’t want to be property specific language. I think the, my thought would be, and I’m open to the other ideas. That those properties, that we wouldn’t be changing the properties that allow firearms. We would be changing or further restricting the types of firearms that are allowed. Until such point in time as then those properties would not, firearms of any kind would not be allowed. Which would basically be the proposal that was presented this evening. Does that make sense? Councilwoman Ernst. Councilwoman Ernst: At what time no firearms will be allowed. Mayor Furlong: For hunting. 22 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Councilwoman Ernst: But at what point in time? Mayor Furlong: Well I guess that’s, you know the 2 days that occur to me are January 1, ’09 which would allow one more hunting season if we go forward with this. Or at the point in time when either a subdivision occurs would be an opportunity or a MUSA expansion. So when we expand the MUSA line, then we’re saying these areas are basically within the urban services area by definition and therefore it’s urban. It’s not rural anymore. Todd Gerhardt: Once an assessment goes against the property for sewer and water. One of the options. Councilwoman Ernst: But these parcels would be able to have shot gun with shot. Just not rifles. But even after January ’09 they would be able to, correct? Mayor Furlong: No. What I’m proposing, or throwing out for an option here is that, is that at a date specific or event specific that these parcels would not be allowed to have firearms for their firearm hunting. Even including shot guns for water fowl or small game. Because of the expansion of our urban… Councilwoman Ernst: Okay. I misunderstood that then. Councilman Litsey: Basically it becomes more of an harassed area or has the potential to be then there would be an automatic. I like that because I think it allows people then a chance to get used to it. There’s a clearly defined you know definition behind it and you don’t have to keep re- visiting it. Councilman McDonald: Right. Councilwoman Ernst: I would just wonder why we wouldn’t wait and review these like we talked about earlier as they come up and as they continue to develop, why we wouldn’t review them at that time. Rather than just saying okay, we’re going to put a date out there and say at this date no firearms will be allowed. Mayor Furlong: Well I think whether it’s a day specific or whether it’s an event specific, and whether it’s a MUSA. Whether it’s the attachment of an assessment for utility services, you’re basically at that point saying these are urban areas now as opposed to a rural area as hunting tends to be a rural sport as opposed to an urban sport. Councilman McDonald: If I could, one of the things that I think was missing in this to begin with is there wasn’t a lot of notice. That’s one of my objections to just going cold turkey. Mayor Furlong: Boy we’re full of those puns. Councilman McDonald: Yeah, I save mine for the camera. I really believe that yeah, we do need to put people on notice that they know it’s coming to an end and whatever that date is will depend upon what we hear but that’s what I think we need to do and we can put that into the 23 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 ordinance as you suggest. It puts everyone on notice that at this point you know, gun hunting within the city of Chanhassen will cease and I think that’s. Mayor Furlong: North of current 212, because there still will be the option for people to. Councilman McDonald: But that’s within State property and that was my question about what the State will allow down there and that’s what I think we should model upon but the State will always be the State and there’s not much we can do about that, but within the city of Chanhassen we can do something and maybe we should put everyone on notice as to what it is we think. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Well I think earlier I said you know I think this issue will dissolve by itself in time with the MUSA coming in and the expansion and development and so I just, I want to make sure that we do allow private property owners that still can hunt to have as much time as they can to hunt on their property. So I’m not sure if ’09 is that the magic number. Mayor Furlong: ’09 may be too soon. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yeah, or what it is. Mayor Furlong: But a MUSA expansion might be appropriate. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Right. Something that’s appropriate and not just a number. That’s at least how I feel. That this is an issue that you know we’ve been privileged a long time to be able to hunt in our town and I think with the development will dissolve this issue rather quickly. Todd Gerhardt: I just want to clarify. Just let you know so everybody understands that if Tim’s development moves ahead, we probably would bring sewer and water in June-July of 2009 and so that would probably put the end to hunting on Tim’s property if we follow the guideline that the mayor suggested. Mr. Klingelhutz, the earliest that we would probably have sewer and water to him would be 2015 so he would continue to provide hunting opportunities on his property until 2015. And so I just wanted to make sure everybody kind of had a date of how this was all playing out if this is a perfect world and if everything moves ahead as planned. Councilman McDonald: Okay, can I clarify one thing about that? The way you’re stating it, it sounds as though it’s hunting as is. We pass this we’re putting a restriction that it’s shot guns. In the future that’s all that would be able to be used down in Mr. Klingelhutz’ property would be shot guns. And I think even if we come back with shot guns, he’s going to have a problem with this because he wants slugs so we may in effect stop hunting down there anyway. Todd Gerhardt: That was my intent. Councilman McDonald: Okay. Todd Gerhardt: Is that what the mayor suggested just shot guns, no rifles, no slug, and bow and arrow and bird shot. 24 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Councilman Litsey: I think it sounds like a good plan. Approach to compromise and come to a consensus… Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Do you have? Todd Gerhardt: I’ve got direction. We’ll try to get a map together to show you the distance of bird shot and how that might affect on Tim’s property, depending on where you’re standing out there. The travel distance. We can put a map together to show you that. And we’ll put this back on consent agenda for our next meeting. Mayor Furlong: Alright. Are we comfortable with that? Since it was presented before us with a recommendation, is there a motion to table? Councilwoman Ernst: So moved. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there a second? Councilman McDonald: Second. Mayor Furlong: Any discussion on that motion? Councilwoman Ernst moved, Councilman McDonald seconded that the City Council table action on the amendment to Chapter 11 of the Chanhassen City Code Concerning Firearms. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: Councilman McDonald: If I could Mr. Mayor. I’d like to, in the past you know we have the water treatment plant and when I was on the Planning Commission I was involved in all of that and I’ve always wanted to see how it worked and I just want to say I did get the opportunity to go over and look at it and what I wanted to kind of bring back in all of this is to say that you know I met with Kevin Crooks and I just can’t say enough. I was very impressed with everything he told me. He’s very knowledgeable about the system. He explained it. I understand a lot more now about water within the city of Chanhassen and you know the problems that we were facing and the importance of what we were doing. But he was you know very good, and what I’d like to also do is to thank Todd and his staff, especially Laurie for setting this up. I know I was after her quite a bit to get something going but also Paul who Kevin works for. I really feel that you know the staff is very knowledgeable. I think we’re in very good hands. I think the water treatment plant is a great asset to this community. I think that as we look to build one over on the west side, it will be a great benefit and a great asset to the people over there. I now understand a lot more about the treatment of water and the importance of it and what we do and what we don’t do and the problems that you know certain areas of the city are having so I just want to say thank you and again, we do have a great staff within this city. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any other? 25 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Todd Gerhardt: Which zone do we treat? Councilman McDonald: We treat the low zone. Not the high zone. Mayor Furlong: You were listening. Councilman McDonald: Yes. And I know the difference of what’s the difference in the water too. Mayor Furlong: We’ll save that for another meeting… Tune in in 2 weeks for that. Any other council presentations? Councilwoman Tjornhom: I just want to congratulate Glenn Stolar on the good article about him in Minnesota Parks and Recreation magazine. He’s been a real asset to that commission and I just want to say thank you to him if he’s listening, for everything that he’s done. Mayor Furlong: Very good. Thank you. Any other thoughts or comments? Did you have th something? One thing I drove down West 78 Street today and I noticed we have some new banners up. Todd Gerhardt: Yep. Cross that off my list. Mayor Furlong: I just wanted to thank Mr. Gerhardt and his staff for doing that. Their effort to promote the city as well as remind people that Family Circle named Chanhassen one of the top 10 towns in the country to raise a family so very, very good looking banners. Really brighten up the city and along that drive so take a look at those if you get a chance to get out of here before the sun goes down so. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, the banners look great. There’s more to come. They’re just waiting, had another little emergency go on so there’s more that are going to go up throughout downtown. Chief Geske’s son is on one of the banners and one of our volunteer fireman so we got a local, a couple of local heroes up there and you know I think they look nice. It adds a little color to the downtown and we’ll continue to extend those through the downtown. And just to Jerry’s point, I think we’ve gone through a long process in deciding what type of water treatment we were going to have in Chanhassen. Probably 5 years in the planning to build that plant and we looked at a variety of different options and no question that that plant helps us out with the maintenance and the quality of the water that we provide our residents so. I know Tom sat through a lot of that. Bethany and it was a long process but I think it’s turned out well and we got a nice system and a plan for the next one also so. And Kevin is now our new Water and Sewer Utility Superintendent so we promoted him from Plant Operator when Kelly left us. That was sad to see Kelly leave because he was a big player in helping us lay out the strategic plan for our water and sewer system here in town and it’s always nice whenever you can promote within and we had a couple of options internally so you know Kevin’s going to do a great job in that position. Couple 26 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 of other things that are going on in town as we are in the midst of road construction. If you go up and down Laredo, we’ve started road construction there. Had a couple of little issues going on. We had a cable line that was sagging and one of the CSO’s gerry rigged the cable back up so some of the garbage trucks and things could get underneath there so, we got the cable company out to correct that. But I think people are very pleased with the construction and looking forward to driving on some new pavement and pre-treating the water before it goes into Lotus Lake so that project’s moving along. Another one that’s creating some inconvenience is the closure of Lyman in front of the new high school. That road construction has started. We have, like our last meeting, approved a purchase agreement with Holasek so we have the land there so we can start construction on the north end, so that project’s moving ahead. And I had one other thing. I think it was the banners, oh the wells. The wells are up and operating so as we get into July and August here with our warm weather, I’ve got to believe some people are sprinkling their yards this last weekend so we’re prepared for meeting our daily watering needs, but we also encourage to conserve and go to our web site and check out the water wise recommendations we have there. That’s all I have. Mayor Furlong: I guess to follow up on the last item I had on my notes with the new wells coming on line. Wells 12 and 13. In less than 10 months we went from watering restrictions because we didn’t have enough water to, or we wanted to make sure we had enough water for life and safety issues, to now being fully, fully ready to meet demand and I want to take this opportunity to thank Todd, please extend our thanks to Paul, the engineering department and everyone on staff that really, not only dealt with the initial problem in a very professional manner, but also came up with a plan to correct the problem and do it in such a timely manner that from one, literally one season to another it will likely go un-noticed by many residents which is exactly the way I think we should government operating. Going un-noticed when we’re dealing with basic services and supplies and services so the timing of these 2 wells coming on board is atypical. We did get support from State agencies. The Department of Health, DNR. We appreciate…as well because they did help us meet a very expedited schedule and so, but to all our staff and to the contractors and everyone involved, it was very much a job well done so thank you. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, and I want to recognize Todd Hoffman. You know Todd is very professional in his duties and when we look to locate wells we try to find property that we own and. Mayor Furlong: We look first to parks. Todd Gerhardt: Which is property we own and you know Todd takes good care of his parks and wants to make sure that they look pleasing after Paul goes in there and…both the Park and Rec Commission reviewed those plans prior to Paul’s construction so big thanks to them for helping keep our sewer and water rates down and keeping us from trying to buy a piece of property someplace else so you know it’s a team effort. I encourage that and Todd and Paul work very well together, like all the departments and you know we just got to button up a couple of the landscaping items and we’ll get those parks back in shape again. But I wanted to thank him and the Park and Rec Commission for their insights on that. 27 City Council Meeting - June 23, 2008 Mayor Furlong: I’m glad you did that, as is the council because there are a lot of people that were involved in getting that done and we’re grateful to all of them so thank you. Todd Gerhardt: And then, oh I did have one other thing. If you get the latest issue of St. Paul, or Minneapolis-St. Paul magazine. They rank some communities in there. Where to live in Minnesota and Chanhassen is one of them as a growth community and so that was nice to see. And again, one of the attributes of living in Chanhassen were our parks. Mayor Furlong: All the wells in the parks. Todd Gerhardt: And all the wells in the parks. Councilman Litsey: Lots of water. Todd Gerhardt: They did mention the water but it was lakes you know and they did say it was quite a commute but you know, with the opening of 312 it’s much easier. Councilman Litsey: Jump on the bus. Todd Gerhardt: Or take the bus. So that was nice to get recognized in there so. If you’re out and about, grab an edition. Councilman Litsey: That’s the current edition? Todd Gerhardt: Yeah. We’ll try to get a copy in our next Admin section. Somebody brought it to me today. That’s all I have. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Gerhardt? Any discussions on the correspondence? If not, we have some items left on our work session agenda so we will continue those immediately following adjournment in the Fountain Conference Room. If there’s nothing else to come before us this evening, is there a motion to adjourn? Councilwoman Ernst moved, Councilman McDonald seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. The City Council meeting was adjourned at 8:35 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 28