1987 01 12t73
CITY C~IL
MEETING
12, 1987
Hamilton called the meeting to order. The meeting was opened with the
to the Flag.
PRESENT: Councilman Horn, Councilman Geving, Councilman Boyt and
Johnson.
PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Barbara Dacy, Lori Sietsema, Gary
'eh and Todd Gerhardt.
OF OFFICE: Roger Knutson, City Attorney, officially administered the
of Office for Mayor Tom }~milton, Councilman Jay Johnson ar~ Councilman
[illiam Boyt.
OF AGENDA: Councilman Geving moved, Councilman Horn seconded to
the agenda as presented. Mi voted in favor ar~ motion carried.
[ZATIONAL ITf2~S - 1987:
Rules of Procedure: Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Geving seconded to
the Rules of Procedures followirg Robert's Rules of Order with the
changes regarding "Approval of Minutes" to be included in the Consent
ienda; to move the "Approval of Accounts" after New Business in terms of
,rder on the Agenda; and to adopt the Rules of Procedure in Resolution form.
voted in favor ar~ motion carried.
~ilman Boyt requested that it would be helpful to have a condensed outline
procedures that the Council follows available to tt~ public.
Official Newspaper: Mayor Hamilton moved~ Councilman Geving seconded to
:ove South Shore Weekly News as the official newspaper for the City. All
in favor and motion carried.
:. Official De~sitory: Councilman Horn moved, Mayor ~amilton seconded to
Chanhassen Bank as the official depository for the City of
Ail voted in favor and motion carried.
Attorney: Councilman Geving moved, Councilman Horn seconded to
n the firm of Grannis, Grannis, Farrell and Knutson as City Attorney for
City of Chanhassen. All voted in favor arz] motion carried.
Bond Consultant: Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Geving seconded to
the fire of Merry and Associates as the Bond Consultants for the City
Chanhassen. All voted in favor and motion carried.
Mayor: Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to elect
Geving as the Acting Mayor. Ail voted in favor except Councilman
who abstained and motion carried.
Fire Marshall: Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Geving seconded to
lint Steve Madden and Dale Gregory will perfom the duties of Fire Marshall
174
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
until the time that the City fir~s a replacement for Jim Castleberry. Ail
voted in favor and motion carried.
h. Weed Ins~ecto. r: Councilman Geving moved, Councilman Horn seconded to
appoint Mayor Hamilton as Weed Inspector and the City Engineer, Gary Warren as
Assistance Weed Inspector. All voted in favor and motion carried.
i. Fire Chief: Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to approve Art
·
Kerber as the Fire Chief. All voted in favor and motion carried.
j. Health Officer: Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Geving seconed to
appoint Dr. David McCollum as the City's Health Officer. All voted in favor
and motion carried.
k. City Auditors: Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to
authorize the 1986 Audit Contract to the firm of Voto, Tautges, Redpath and
Company. All voted in favor and motion carried.
CONSENT AGENDA: Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to approve the
'following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
(a) Final Plat Approval, West Village Heights, James ~y.
(b) Amendment to the Joint Powers Agreement Establishing the Southwest
Area Transit Commission.
(c) Resolution 987-1: Approval of Land Use Plan Amendment Request to
Include West 65th Street and Crestview Drive in the Metropolitan
Urban Service Area.
(d) Approval of Certificate of Correction, Fox Hollow 4th Addition.
(e) Accept Resignation from Park and Recreation Commissioner, Wallace McKay.
(f) Set Special Meeting Date for Joint City Council/Park and Recreation
Commission meeting.
(i) Resolution 987-2: Request to Remove No Park Zone along Kiowa Trail,
City of Chanhas~en.
Ail voted in favor and motion carried.
Mayor Hamilton stated that because there were a number of people present at
the meeting regarding Consent Agenda items, the Council would discuss items
(g) and (h) at this point in the meeting instead of at the end of the meeting.
(~) MRPA Request to Hold the Men's District Softball Tournament at Lake Ann
Park.
Councilman Boyt: They are real brief on (g), that's the one about the Men's
District Softball Tournament and that's certainly exciting news to see that
they are interested in using our field. I would suggest that rather than
171
Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
· lng all park entrance fees, which in talking to a couple Park and Rec
)le, that wasn't discussed at their meeting or at least they don't remember
being discussed, I would suggest that we charge $2.00. I think there are
to be costs to the City of running this tournament and I think ~2.00 is
nominal fee and I don't think we should open the gates to Lake Ar~ in August
just let people come in so I would recommend that we give them some sort
a pass that they buy for $2.00 and they can use it for the tournament.
Sietsema: I talked to Dale and basically, except for additional pick-up
picking up litter ar~ whatever, there aren't really a lot of extra
as far as maintaining things. The other thing is the reason that I had
ecommended in my Staff Report to the Park and Recreation Commission to waive
fees is because we are members of the Minnesota Recreation Association and
send teams every year to other communities for these tournaments ar~ pretty
:h across the board they do waive the fees if there are Park fees charged
it is kind of our turn to do that, to have th~ tournament.
Boyt: Would it be then, by waiving fees, is that waiving fees for
or waiving fees for just everybody that comes in on that weekend?
Sietsema: We could, if you want to, try and figure out some way to
[iscriminate who is playing ar~ who isn't but we get a lot of people out there
watch the games and that is where we make the money is off the concessions
the spectators, not as much as by the players. I would rather that we
the fees for everyone involved with the tournament. It would be hard to
the fees for the people playing in the tournament and not the people
the beach but the spectators are as much a part of the tournament as the
players. I would recon~end that we waive the~ for the whole weekend.
Boyt: It would strike me that if you get a good turn-out, and I
,ld assume you will, that there is wear and tear comparable to whatever we
with our men's softball league and they all buy passes to get in to play
they are part of the community generally. We're bringing people in from
of the community who are making no contribution to the park but Using it.
think it' s a nice balance. It' s my point but I'm finished.
Johnson: Is the Fire Department, has this been discussed with
iri Sietsema: Dick briefly discussed it ar~ their general consensus on their
rst discussion was t~ are not interested so our next step was I was going
:o offer it to the Legion ar~ if they aren't interested, then it will go to
:he City f~ployees to their group fund to do it.
.~ouncilman Johnson: So you're saying you're having trouble finding someone to
Fun th~ concessions.
Lori Sietsema: After that I wil probably have myself and my gate attendants
~s t3~ concession workers.
Mayor Hamilton: There is another group I think you ought to contact and
that's the Chamber of Commerce. They may want to run it through their
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Scholarship Fund or something. It's certainly something that they may want to
think about.
Councilman Geving moved, Councilman Horn seconded to approve the MRPS request
to hold the Men's District Softball Tournament at Lake Ann Park. All voted in
favor and motion carried.
(h) Approval of Lotus Lake Boat Access Operational Procedures.
Councilman Boyt: I would like to see, I think the Park Rules and Lake
Regulations being posted will help everybody out. I wish there were some way
that we could get these to the residents of the lake as well and I would
suggest that we consider adding some of these that I suspect are covered by
State Statute where people might be benefitted by being reminded of them. One
of them is I think we should have something on there that all boats must have
a properly functioning noise suppression system. Anybody who has ~ out on
Lake Minnetonka realizes that there are some people who think they can run a
boat without a muffler. I would suggest, I have a few of these and I would
just like to suggest them. I would suggest that another one, down on the
third point we make the 150 feet of a scuba flag, I would suggest that we also
want some sort of feet from a non-motorized watercraft, sailboat or whatever.
They should be reminded that there is a restriction as to how close they can
come and I think something else that would bear mentioning there is that
motorized watercraft always must yield to non-motorized watercraft.
Mayor Hamilton: I noticed that it says here that there is going to be no
parking from TH 101 for approximately 500 feet. That is going into the park,
is that correct? My question is how abouthaving noparking allowed on TH 101
or is that now posted there? That was one of our concerns that we talked
about that once the parking in the park is full are people going to go and try
and park on the highway which you don't want them to do. I think we ought to
contact the Highway Department right now and get no parking signs along TH 101
along the entrance so it would make it virtually impossible for anyone to park
there, on both sides.
Don Ashworth: Did we have a problem with that?
Mayor Hamilton: That's what I'm saying. Contact the State or do you want to
wait until there is a problem and then contact them?
Don Ashworth: We can contact the State but the way Lori has shown it, we
aren't going to let them in after that lot is filled.
Mayor Hamilton: They wouldn't be able to put their boat in there?
Don Ashworth: I would like to try it without resorting to signage. We have a
lot of signage along TH 101 right now. We can get everything in place and if
there is a problem, we could literally have signage up in a week. I think
we're getting into quite an expense for each of the signs posted. You are
talking anywhere from $35.00 to $50.00 per sign.
Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Mayor Hamilton: Just for an example and use ridiculous and say a group of
~le got together and decided that they all wanted to all come to Lotus Lake
boat on tbs weekerx] ar~ there are 20 people all having boats ar~ there is
room for 12 so the first 8 are going to go in, put their boat in and
rive out and the next 12 can come in ar~ put their boats in ar~ park their
They may park on the highway, they may park someplace else. I guess
that's what we're trying to avoid with that. That is kind of ridiculous.
Roger Karjalahti: I had a question on defining the lot being full. If we
have 12 spots and two are designated har~icapped only, when we fill the 10 are
we going to close off the lot at that time and not let anybody else in unless
they have a handicap sticker? Otherwise that llth boat comes in and he's the
problem because he can launch but he has no place to park because the chain
wasn't closed so he can go out and park on the street like Tom is talking.
Councilman Geving: I think the handicap has to be left open.
Mayor Hamilton: Handicap is handicap.
Roger Karjalahti: It has to be open for handicap but does that mean now that
we say the lot is full except handicap where we're going to put the chain
across because if we don't, we're going to continue launching and then the
parking is going to go down South Shore Drive ar~ then maybe up along TH 101.
Mayor Hamilton: ~hat's your thought on that subject Lori?
Lori Sietsena: To be honest, I hadn't consider that.
Mayor Hamilton: It seems like if there are two spots for handicap, then they
ought to be for handicap, period. If there are 10 boats on the lake and 2
spots open for handicap, the lot is full unless someone comes with a handicap
sticker. There is no exception for that. Maybe you want to include that in
the rules.
Jack Melby: I think for sanitary and safety reasons, I would like to see no
pets allowed.
Councilman Geving: I think that's included in here.
Jack Melby: Two, for my benefit, if you could ser~ me a copy of the Rules amd
Regulations that you' ye got.
Mayor Hamilton: A couple of other things I would like to see us do with the
Rules and Regulations would be to have them printed ar~ distributed to anybody
using and if somebody comes in you hand them the Rules and Regulations along
with having them posted. You also hand them a copy of it so they've got them
for anybody using it. Should we have a sign in the park that violators will
be towed at their own expense? In-fact I was going to call Gary today to see
if himself or other local towers would contract with us to tow cars if we have
a problen there. Is that something that you do Gary?
c~ry Brown: Yes.
128
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Mr. Arseth: I would like to see a trash can put down there. We've been getting
a lot of beer cans, pop cans, McDonald bags, everything blowing around
already. Also, you're going to need a Satellite down there plus right now
they are parking all over your nice new sod that you put in and also the
handicap people right now can't even find a place to park down there on
Saturday morning because they are using that area for just ordinary parking
for people other than handicap.
Mayor Hamilton: Tnere isn't any signage up yet I don't believe, so there
should be signage put up as soon as possible to try and minimize any
destruction to the park right now.
Councilman Geving: I liked the one Bill brought up about not operating a
watercraft within a certain number of feet of a fixed object whether it be a
dock or some other floating pontoon raft or whatever it is. ~nat's the one
that I think is most important to me.
Mayor Hamilton: I wanted to ask Bill, you said the noise suppression device
on your boat, if we include that that has to apply to everyone on the lake
also and I don't know what you mean by that. Are you talking about boats that
are noisier than heck and I can hear all the way on top of the hill?
Councilman Boyt: I suspect that there is probably a State Statute that makes
it very specific. I don't know if people are all that aware of it and I think
this is an opportunity to make them more aware.
Roger Knutson: I don't know anything about this subject but my father owned a
5 hp motor which is about 50 years old and it doesn't make much noise, they
don't have a muffler on it I don't think.
Councilman Boyt: Yes, they do. It runs down through the water. Since the
exhaust goes down through the water, it' s muffled.
Councilman Horn: I'm wondering, a lot of people bring their dogs fishing with
them and I 'm wondering why w~ don't allow ths~ to do that if they are leashed?
Mayor Hamilton: What does our current Ordinance say? No dogs, leashed or
unleashed are allowed in the park.
Lori Sietssma: No pets at all are allowed in the park.
Councilman Horn: Is that typical?
Mayor Hamilton: I think so. Yes, I know it is in other parks.
Councilman Horn: It must be the residents can do it but the people who come
in can't. One other comment about what we put on the sign. I think the
purpose, at least as I read it was to highlight the relevant issues. My
experience with posting signs by water areas and if you try to put too much on
them, they lose their pizzazz. Pretty soon the lettering is so small that you
can bearly read it. I would suggest that we don't over clutter this one.
Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Hamilton: That will have the hours of operation on it too?
Sietsema: Yes.
Geving: I think a lot of what you're talking about here Clark, it
be put on this flyer of Tom's, if it is going to be handed out, but the
in itself would just include the hours of operation and some of the
inificant rules about parking. Not all the ir~ividual park operations.
Hamilton: I was thinking of something similar to what the Arboreteum
Everytime you drive in there they har~ you 4 or 5 different things of
literature. Park Rules for one thing and then what is going on in the park.
Horn: I have no problem with adding to 'tha~ My only concern was
too much on the signs so it would not be readable. My only experience
with passing out literature like that too is the fact that many times it is a
source of litter.
Mayor Hamilton: Can w~ get s~me trash barrels down there quite soon?
Councilman Boyt: Thinking of the source of litter, which I suspect it might
be, would you pursue the possibility of having this printed up as a card
rather than a 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper ar~ maybe if it is close to pocket
size, that is what people would do with it rather than looking at it and
letting it blow in the wind. I agree with you that it is a difficult
situation if you put very much on a sign people don't bother to read it and
maybe Tom's rec~m~ndation of a handout covers the difficulty.
Councilman Johnson: On a handout, this is going to the people that are going
to be launching the boats, that's what it's for, we're assigning the 1~ slots
there for parking and 2 for handicapS, couldn't it be almost something that
you give, you park in slot 12, you park in slot so and so. This is kind of
their parking pass to show they are the person who is suppose to be parking
there. It's got the rules on it and what slot they are suppose to park in and
then they hand that back to you when they leave so there is no litter if they
give it back to you. Lots of ideas.
Mayor Hamilton: Maybe you want to kick that aroum~ and see what you come up
with.
Councilman Horn: I assume there will be other people parking besides boaters,
who just want to use the park.
Mayor Hamilton: They should get a copy too.
Councilman Johnson: What happens on the lake is one set and what happens on
the park grounds is another set.
Councilman Boyt: You make a good point Clark that I would like some
clarification oru I thought when I read this it said that people without
boats could only park in one spot and people with boats could only park where
the boats are launched, is that right? So that means if we had, for instance,
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
a big turnout of just park users, how many spots do they have?
Lori Sietsema: Taere are 12 single car only slots.
Councilman Boyt: So there are 12 of each because it says something in here
about 12 car/trailer spaces.
Lori $ietsema: Yes, 12 car/trailer and to be honest, I'm not sure how many,
it's 12 or 15.
Councilman Boyt: We're basically saying there's no flexibility to take any of
the car/trailer spots up with the cars?
Lori Sietsema: Right. ~ne car/trailers have to be in the car/trailer spots
and the car/trailers can not park in regular spots. The signs up along the
street will be no car/trailer parking along the streets. Taey can use them
only to use the park.
Councilman Johnson: The streets within the park.
Lori Sietsema: No, along the street.
Councilman Boyt: Roger, can we do that? Discriminate against people who have
a trailer on the back of their car versus people who don't have a trailer on
the back of their car?
Roger Knutson: As far as parking lots?
Councilman Boyt: As far as on the streets. On the street parking.
Roger Knutson: I don't see any reason why you couldn't if you made that your
policy if you wanted to.
Councilman Horn: Can you then conversely force a person to have a trailer on
their car to park in a spot? A spot where it's a two spot portion for a car
and trailer. In other words, if a car parked where a car and trailer should
park, could you ticket them?
Lori Sietsema: Yes.
Mayor Hamilton: How about if the car, you have say a rowboat type things
where they sit right on top of the car.
Lori Sietsema: If you don't have a trailer on your car, you can't park in the
car/trailer spot.
Mayor Hamilton: But you can put a boat in. Tnen we're getting to the point
where you can have more than 12 in the lake because you can put a boat on top
of a car, a boat that you can put a motor on, and you're saying you can't use
one of those spots so now you're up to 13 or more. I see those people going
fishing. It's a one person operation where you have thing that hooks on top
of your car and I don't know how they do it but it just sits on top of the
'.ity Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
:ar. It's upside down, it's a boat with a motor on back. When a person puts
boat in, I don't care if it's a canoe or a sailboat or a motorboat, they put
t in the lake, that's one of the 12. There are 12 boats period that they put
the lake. If they put a canoe off the top of their car, or if they have
canoes on top of their car?
Sietsena: Okay, that can be controlled.
Hamilton: Then they park in the spot for the boats. As long as they
in the middle of the two so it takes up both spaces. If that's a problem
has to be some way to resolve it so we don't have more than the allowed
going iD. I think those are things that we need to get formalized so
whoever is working in that house there, will help in those situations.
~ilman Geving: But don't you think T~n that a lot of these things are
ioing to evolve after we have ~ in operation a little bit. After Memorial
we'll have another meeting and Lori, you come back to us at that time,
the first of June or whatever and tell us the type of problems you are
iiencing and maybe there are seine rule changes that we have to make at
time to position this thing exactly the way it should be.
Hamilton: I'm just trying to make this as painless as possible.
Geving: I know there are going to be adjustments. ~ne other
when are we going to get the little shed up on top of the hill there?
facility for the park attendant.
Sietsema: The slab has already gone in so this Spring. I envision that
would...
ilman Geving: Something like we've got at Lake Ann?
~ri Sietsena: Yes.
lman Horn: (]me comment, slightly off the subject but I have also
cars parked on the new grass and I would like the Staff to try and do
~omething about that so we can keep them off. Especially this winter when we
have any snow, it's going to really tough on the grass with tb~ 'cars
· on there.
Hamilton: Tell the Sheriff and Deputies to start patrolling.
Ashworth: Where are they parking?
Horn: Tmey are parking down by the lake On the grass. Ice
fishennan.
Roger Karjalahti: Just a comment on the rules and an idea I had. Instead of
card, which can still get thrown away, just have a 8 1/2 x 11 sheet that folds
over into a brochure arx] something on Chan with the Maple Leaf and On the back
have the limits on fisl~ Something that has pertinence to fishing. Of
that's not all the people that are going out. Just something that
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
folds over that they will kccp because a card won't have enough room to get
all the things down and we're going to have to pick up sc~e of the rest.
Mayor Hamilton: I think we can develop something that will be nice to hand
out.
Roger Karjalahti: It can have some interesting points on there. Talk about
sunburn or whatever.
Councilman Geving: I think little things like the average depth of the lake,
the kinds of fish in the lake.
Roger Karjalahti: Or a little map of the lake.
Dianne Preiditus: And use biodegradable paper.
Mayor Hamilton: Anything else? If not, I would entertain a motion to approve
this with the noted changes and I think we should have this back for review
again.
Dianne Preiditus: I have just one question about a canoe car. I thought the
road down to the lake for boats is separate from the park road and so that
would be one of the boats, whether it had a trailer or not, they would have to
use the boat road to get down to the water with their canoe right, so they
would have to park in the boat parking lot. Is that true? That was my
concern about how do you just keep 12 boats going in the water.
Mayor Hamilton: Tnat's the same concern I had. You get the type of boat that
one person can handle on top of your car, you can have one or even two canoes.
I don't know if we addressed that. You can put two canoes on top of your car.
Does that account for two or what do we do? Do we put an orange cone in one
of the spots to say that that's been used.
Councilman Johnson: Are we worried about canoes?
Mayor Hamilton: Personally canoes and sailboats, I would think everybody
would love to see on the lake but it's the motorboats that cause the problsms.
Councilman Johnson: You can come driving up with six of them on a trailer and
a group from the church is going to go out in the lake and they then fill up 6
parking spots.
Roger Karjalahti: Tney're going to go down the river. They don't want
anything as sedate as a little lake.
Mayor Hamilton: Maybe you should address that too Lori. A group coming in
with multiple canoes. How are we going to handle that? Rather than approving
this, I think we should t~_ble this until Lori brings it back to us with some
clarification.
',ity Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to table approval of Lotus Lake
Access Operational Procedures for further clarificatio~ All voted in
~avor amd motion carried.
iSITORS PRESENTATIONS: Leon Hendrickson, President, Chanhassen Senior
Her~rickson: I'm on the Advisory Board of the South Shore Senior Center
they wanted me to report back to you o~ the 1986 activities. The Center
is continuing to grow. 'They have been under existence for three years now and
end of the quarter the first year they had 19 in attendance and at the end
)f the quarter of 1986 they had 6~ as the average attendance. Our
living Day dinner celebration or congregate dining, they took care of
people and that's the heart of the organization is the congregate dining
all activities are continuing to grow. I would like to give out some
istics regarding 1986 which you can look at at your convenience.
Hamilton asked if the Chan Seniors were still meeting at the elementary
or if they had gone over to the other place. Leon Hendrickson stated
they were mccting at both places.
~ilman Geving asked if the Senior Citizens were aware of the new
potential in the City of Chanhasse~ and Mr. Hendrickson stated
yes, they were aware of that.
Hamilton asked out of the average of 6~ people in attendance at the
's, how many were from Chanhasseru Leon Hendr ickson stated that about
l's of the people are from Chanhassen. Mayor Hamilton asked if better
Ltion was available, would that increase the participation. Mr.
[rickson said that it probably would but generally those that have cars
pick up others to go to the center.
OF MINUTES:
Geving moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to approve the Minutes of the
Council meeting dated December 15, 198~ All voted in favor and motion
tied.
Hamilton moved, Councilman Geving seconded to note the Minutes of the
Commission meeting dated December lq, 1986. All voted in favor and
carried.
BY CHADDA TO ESTABLISH A ~ITY CENTER TASK FORCE.
Don Ashworth: I see Mr. Johnson is present this evening. They hsd made a
:ion both at the Park and Recreation Commission as well as the Housing
Redevelopment Authority as part of the downtown redevelopment plaru A
community center is shown in that plan and Mr. Johnson would encourage the
City to start work on the' feasibility for that type of facility. When
it did go to the Housing and Redevelopment Authority they did recommend to the
City Council that the Council proceed with setting a citizens committee or
11
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
whatever fashion the Council may choose but anyway to move ahead with at least
studying this issue.
Mayor Hamilton: It seems to be a good idea. I think we should have a
Commission to look at all aspects of having a Community Center. We've talked
about it for a long time. I think it's time now to start doing something
about it and have a commission look at all the pros and cons and where it
should or shouldn't be and whys and wherefores. I guess it's time to get
started so I guess the recommendation was that there should be a person on the
conxnittee from the Council, citizens at large and the Planning Cimxnission.
Don Ashworth: We're suggesting that Council authorize Staff to advertise for
citizens at large and go back to each of the Commissions asking them to select
saneone in their group to serve on this committee.
Councilman Geving: I would like to, and I do believe that this is time for a
study of this nature. I think this is the way to handle it. We are asking,
or at least CHADOA is asking or proposing that this be a general obligation
bond financing type of operation so this is a significant amount of money that
could be bonded and financed by the general public. In that respect I would
like to say that there should be someone on this committee that is a finance
type person because it is going to get deeply involved in assessments and
alternatives for financing. I would also like to put another alternative
here is to study the alternative locations. ~ne study as it is being proposed
to us is that it be part of the downtown relocation and develol~nent effort.
There may be a better site for such a community center that is not in the
downtown area. I understand what CHADOA is attempting to do here for the
downtown redevelopment but I think the committee should study all avenues of
where is the best place for the location of such facility if we have to go out
and build it from scratch, would it be better to build it on the outskirts of
town or in the center of our community which could be somewhere between here
and Chaska or somewhere between here and the northern part of our community
but not necessarily located in the downtown area. I suspect that there are
also some members who served on our previous downtown public facilities
committee that are still available and they would do a very good job. It just
so happened that before their committee recommendations could be reviewed by
the Council we had already gone ahead and sold the Animal Fair building so
they never really got to the point where their recommendations were answered
but I think some of those people might still be available and I think of
several people that are very active in the community sports. I can give you
some names if you like. I think the questions I have would be brought up by
the group so I'm not going to get into the details of finances, costs, what
should be included in a community center in terms of facilities and so forth.
I very much want the group to study carefully page 4 of this proposal which is
the cost of the community center and the individual items such as the main ice
arena, the blue rink arena, the community center building, the farmers market.
Do we need a farmers market? Do we need an ice arena? What should we do with
the old Bloomberg ice arena as we now know it? Who is going to. pay for the
parking ramp that could also be used by the Dinner Theater people, etc, etc
and all those kinds of questions hopefully will be answered so that we'll have
a pretty good idea whether or not to proceed with this and then secondly,
whether or not it should be financed through a bond issue or financed by
12
.~ity Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
ivate individuals as a private enterprise or somewhere in the middle of this
ere some of the costs of this could be defrayed through the income that
be derived from the community center facility so all of those items ~
he addressed and I, as well as the rest of the Council, are going to be
interested in this. I surveyed a number of people myself before I came
this meeting and I get an overwhelming yes that there is an interest in a
center.
Hamilton: I agree with you Dale that there are a lot of people that
be good on this committee and there's one present in this ro~m and I~
to put her on notice right now that we're going to call her and ask her
if she would be interested, Pat Swenson, former Councilwoman Swensor~ I have
a great deal of respect for her judgment and her ideas and I know she has
always ~ a strong proponent of a community center am~ I think she would do
an excellent job on it. I'll be contacting you. We should at least consider
the Council who would like to be a member. Perhaps to kick it off if we could
one person and the others can follow suit. Is there anybody that would
like to volunteer? I'll ask that first.
Councilman Boyt: I'll volunteer. I'll be one of the volunteers if somebody
else would like to volunteer.
Mayor Hamilton: Anyone else?
Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Geving seconded to appoint Councilman Boyt as
the City Council's representative on the Ommnunity Center Task Force. All
voted in favor and motion carried.
Councilman Horn: I had one other comment too and I think it just amplifies a
little bit what Dale said. I would hope that t~ won't start out with any
constraints on this committee. What we are seeing here is a recommendation
for a community center facility should not be under constraint. They should
take a full, fresh look at this thing. This is maybe one scenario but I don't
think t~ should start with that. I think t~ should start in a broader
sense of a community facility. If it turns out to be this, that's fine but I
don't think that should be the primary goal.
Mayor Hamilton: Some of the things in here they ~ to consider. I think
that gives the Committee a starting place.
Councilman Horn: I think the idea has to be considered but I think they
already have a starting place from the last effort that they did and I think
most of those ideas were considered amd met and they shouldn't be locked into
Mayor Hamilton: I don't think they should be locked in. It should be totally
open. Whatever is out there is fair game.
Councilman Geving: One thing I would like to interject too Tom, the phasing
of the various downtown projects is something that really hasn't beec~e a part
of the City Council presentation to us. We have not really had that brought
before us as a project as far as I~ concerned ar~ so the recommendation here
13
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
is that it be a Phase I project. I would like to delete that term and put no
constraints on this committee so they have to hurry up ar~ get the job done
just so we can get something in the ground. I do not consider this a Phase I
project. It will be done when the committee is ready to make their report and
it shouldn't be carved out. The first thing that we do in the redevelopment
of our downtown, if the group decides that it should be placed in the
downtown, so that there is language to that effect in this document so I would
like to, with that understanding, suggest that it not be a Phase I
consideration.
Brad Johnson: I think I agree with Dale and Clark about the location. I
guess our concern is primarily that we put it in the downtown area because
there was already space downtown for a center which we realize is still there
and that's the only reason why we put it there. The urgency that we have on
timing is simply that we will begin planning of that whole block area this
summer. We would just like to have an indication of whether it will be there
or not and we can plan around that. I think the same goes for the local
traffic. A lot of things that will happen in the downtown area in the
planning process, we will r~ to know about that time if that site is a good
site or not but other than that I agree. I think we should look at all sites
and decide where the best place is and I appreciate what you've done. It's
exactly what we're looking for.
Councilman Johnson: Do we ~ a motion to establish a community center
advisory committee? We assigned Bill to it but we haven't had a motion yet to
make the committee so I would like to make a motion to create the committee
that we just assigned Bill to in terms of what Dale and Clark have been
talking about. It is a City wide search and review of the feasibility of
having this con~nunity center.
Councilman Johnson moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to establish a Community
Center Task Force. All voted in favor and motion carried.
Greg: ~nis is a minor problem but I think if you have three people at large,
I think just as my own comments as a member of the CFA or others, there are
senior organizations, there are probably more spots to make up the committee.
You're probably talking about five outside people that would have great
interest in different things.
Mayor Hamilton: I'm not sure if you get a person from every interest group on
there, I think the larger the committee the more difficult it is to get
anything accomplished so if you bring those people in an advisory capacity and
ask for their opinions and ideas is probaby the best way to handle some of the
others at least from my standpoint.
Don Ashworth: Did that include authorization for Staff to advertise?
Mayor Hamil ton: Yes.
DISCUSSION OF CHAMBER SIGN PROPOSAL.
Mayor Hamilton: Gary Brown who is President of the Chamber is here with us
14
'37
2ity (buncil Meeting - January 12, 1987
and I guess I would just like to preface any remarks that Gary might want to
add just to say that the Chamber that I've been active in for quite a few
~. rs has worked ~n this sign for maybe four years now and I was a little
~isturbed when they went to the Planning Commission to ~ some of the
, as Gary was, that were made about the sign. It isn't something that
been hidden in the closet for all these years. It has ~ brought up at
every Chamber meeting for the last four years. I think they genuinely
a sign and I think they should have a sign and some of the comments that
were made were being kind of futuristic to what is going to be happening to
the City. I don't think they can predict that. We ~ to have a sign now to
the Chamber and most of all my biggest concern is that the City work with
the Chamber. After all the Chamber of Oommerce, the people who are members of
the Chamber are the City. They are business people in the City to make things
happe~ here who play a major role in this City. To ~ the kind of things
that were said previously at the Planning Commissio~ meeting I guess were
addressing the r~-~, looked like an attempt to just knock them down without
giving a chance to say anything or to have any respect for what their wishes
were.
Councilman Horn: I was disturbed when I read the Planning Commission Minutes
also. It occurred to me that there was quite a bit of confusion on the
Planning Commission's part between what was really happening and what the
activities of the Chamber were and the fact that there didn't seem to be any
coordination with that and the BRW and what they were doing downtown. I think
that ~ had spoken with Gary ar~ his group and some of that confusion was...
Gary Brown: They got confused between what we were trying to sell an idea on,
the sign that we wanted to put up, between that and BRW and they got such a
mix-up there that they didn't ur~erst~ really which sign they were talking
about at any one time. The guy from BRW did say that night that he wanted to
come back and talk to me later about this sign thing which was the first part
of November maybe and he hasn't come back or answered any of my calls yet so I
guess I'm not too excited about waiting for him any longer.
Barbara Dacy: Mr. Lasher was in Europe after that meeting on December 10th.
He was supposed to return January 7th.
Councilman Horn: Is he the only one at BRW that can work on this? Don't they
designate someone else whe~ they leave s~ething har~3ing like this?
Barbara Dacy: Actually, to be frank, Staff 'did not ask BRW to authorize the
work function until we had your approval and this is part of the request
tonight. T~e direction from the Planning Commission was mixed and Staff
didn't really feel comfortable authorizing BI~ to expend those funds until you
saw this proposal.
Councilman Horn: I think the concern the Planning Commission had was valid in
that there is such a vast difference between what the two signs were in terms
of architectural, ink, materials and everything else that I can see how they
would have a problen trying to get things to bler~ together.
15
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Councilman Geving: I think this is the kind of issue where we've got too many
players in the game. We've got the HRA involved, we've got the BRW, City
Council, Chamber. It's the kind of issue where everybody is going to have an
idea and opinion about how best to do this and my personal opinion is that we
ought to assign Barb Dacy to this project. She can work directly with the
Chamber. She can come back together with the City Council. We'll make the
decision and be done with it. I know that we have to respect everybody else
involved but we're not going to get this done if we get too many players still
in the game. I would like to limit it to just the Chamber and City Council
and be done with it and have Barb act as our go between. Would you agree to
that Tom? That's the way I see this whole thing because we've been going on
with this for two years now. I think it's bee~ two years. I don't know how
many years but let's get on with it and I think we can do it ourselves without
having to get too many outside interests involved and I think whatever. I'm
flexible and I think the Council is pretty flexible on these designs and if we
can create and get this job done and get the signs up this spring.
Mayor Hamilton: When the BRW thing came in was a total surprise to me. All
the talking about signs with the Chamber has bccn going on and everybody has
known about it who has had any interest in it and the Chamber has been wanting
to put one up. Put up the darn sign. That's a totally different sign than
the one that BRW suddenly is talking about and got thrown in there at the last
minute and I think there is another proposal now that is going to muddy the
waters even more and I don't think that has any effect on the Chamber sign and
that may be a better proposal than the ones we've seen here with the BRW signs
and that's down by Rick Murray ' s office building. He's agreed to perhaps
change his signage so that it says Welcome to Chanhassen.
Gary Brown: He's got a real good idea there. Let's not throw this into this
issue.
Mayor Hamilton: Tne sign that the Chamber has proposed and is recommending is
a sign that is going to serve their purposes. It's modular and will have the
names of the companies that need to be on there, that want to be on there and
are willing to pay the $1,000.00 or whatever it is going to cost. It's not a
cheap sign to put up. It's going to be a nice looking sign. The back is
going to say Welccme to Chanhassen.
Councilman Johnson: I do believe that the Planning Commission did get,
there was a lot of issues mixed in here. I think a lot of real good points
were brought up and I agree with a lot of stuff the Planning Commission did.
What I really like is towards the end they got into saying, hey wait a
minute, you're asking for several years. You're not asking for the next 20
years that this will be the sign and when I'm looking at 3 to 4 years, put a
time limit upon this sign a little ways down the road so we're not looking to
put up the HRA's signs in the next 6 months or anything that I can tell. It's
a ways off as of yet. I like their idea of putting this sign up and
guaranteeing them a length of time for their investment and using the sign to
add on signage to see how effective is this sign and what can we do to make it
more effective, the locations and stuff like that. It would be worthwhile to
the City for it's signing problems and I agree, let's keep the other signs out
of this at this point.
16
Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Boyt: I thought the Planning Commission did a pretty good job of
· some issues here and one of them, you said it took a 3 year
you estimated as a payback. If you could have the sign up for 3 years
felt that was close to break even. I think that should figure in the
I think it would be worth the Council discussing because as the
Commission mentions, they recommend at the end that this is going to
down to a City Council decision and they have pretty much said what they
to say and recommended that it quickly move to us for a speedy resolution.
I would like to see something done. I thought there was a lot of discussion
the importance of having some consistency with our sign ideas. I know
from what you've told me Mr. Mayor, you've ~ at this for quite a while, if
a lahone call or two here right now would help this, I think that would be time
spent.
_C~ry Brown: I think what the Planning Commission was saying and what we
talked about too was the fact that whatever type of letters get used on the
sign, everybody uses the same thing and I don't think anybody will have
problems with that. If we're going to spend that much on a sign, we want it
to look nice.
Councilman Boyt: My other point that I thought was discussed pretty
thoroughly here was the business ~bout a slow down sign before t~ came to
your sign. Something along the line that this is (hanhassen. Remit that
discussion?
Councilman Boyt: It's in here where Ladd Conrad, whom I imagine has more
experience than any of us sitting here on doing outdoor signs, said that
reading a sign was quite a challenge. ~nat you had mentioned 2~ inch letters
which seem rather substantial to me until Conrad points out that 18 inches is
the minimum letter height that Naegele will accept on their signs. A little
different purpose but maybe they face the same kind of challenge of traffic
quickly going by. You also mentioned that this might slow it down more than
we want so I think there is something to be said for a coordinated effort
signwise and I think you all said that at this December 1Mth meeting. My last
point is that you mentioned there might be some justification, or you ar~ the
Planning Commission talked about the City's involvement in the cost of this
sign to a~lish what the City wants to do.
Gary Brown: Tnat was simply because it was brought up there to have Welcome
to Chanhassen on it and the slogan and Maple Leaf or whatever and I said if
the City wish to partake in a piece of that sign we could probably take care
of that but now seeing that BRg; wants to put up Welcome to Chanhasse~ signs
wherever they may be, I guess you wouldn't r~_~ that.
Councilman Boyt: I think we're talking about I would like to have some sort
of coordinated sign. I recognize that you have a time constraint. I also
recognize that you are going to do something to work out as much as you can of
a compromise with this thing. Looking at a minimum of a 3 year life on your
sign. Ihn suggesting that another area, and I would like to know what the
rest of the Council thinks about this, it might be worth discussing is would
17
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
there be a benefit to all concerned if the City got involved in part of this
sign?
Gary Brown: My personal feeling would be no. Let's leave the City out of the
sign business. Let's have Chanhassen Population 6,400 and leave it at that.
The City has something to sell and it's the city. I don't think it is going
to pay for th~m to be on a sign with the service station, restaurant and bar.
Mayor Hamilton: I think it's really unfortunate that BRW got involved in this
thing at all. That anything even came up about BRW because the only thing you
should be considering is the sign that was proposed by the Chamber and we
suddenly start saying that this sign has to be consistent with any sign that
BRW might do...they are unfamiliar with the Chamber and trying to have signs
that look alike. This sign is a sign that serves a purpose and that is to
advertise the businesses that in the downtown area and give you some direction
as to where you go. It is taking the place of the directional sign that was
on the northwest corner of the intersection of TH 101 and TH 5 which really
nobody could read. The letters were so small, you couldn't see ~ and by
the time you saw the sign you were past the intersection to turn anyway so
that was a Chamber sign and the reason...
Councilman Geving: Tnat was a City sign. We paid $5,000.00.
Mayor Hamilton: It was serving a purpose for the Chamber but this one, we
wanted to take that one down and put this one in it's place prior to that
intersection so people can see it before they turn off.
Gary Brown: We realize it isn't perfect and nothing is going to be but let's
put the thing up and then we know if we blow it, we know next time to try
six~ething different.
Mayor Hamilton: Tnere have been so many people involved in this thing. You
talked to the sign people and if this is their recommendatiom The Chamber
has looked at it and it seems to serve it's purpose. I'm going to recommend
approval of issuance of the sign permit for the Chamber of Commerce without
conditions. These two things here, 1 and 2, they should probably be done but
not as a part of this issuance.
Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to authorize issuance of the
sign permit for the Chamber of Commerce with City Council review in five
years. All voted in favor except Councilman Boyt who opposed and the motion
carried.
Councilman Boyt: It would seem to me that you're probably not going to put
this sign in the ground over the next two months.
Gary Brown: Why?
Councilman Boyt: I would suspect that the ground is going to freeze. Are you
going to go ahead and put it in?
18
175
it, y Council ~cting - January 12, 1987
Brown: I don't want to take a chance on somebody coming back in 6 weeks
rcm now and saying we're going to change this so you can't.
Boyt: As it stands now, unless we can get some sort of agreement
commit to talking to BRW to at least get the letters and the exterior of
sign of common material, I vote against this but if I can get that kind of
, you've got my vote.
Hamilton: The BRW should have nothing to do with this.
lman Johnson: I can't see how the BRW, at this point t~ have given us
ome basic signs with one type of lettering. I don't think they have really
ooked into the sign problem too much. I haven't four~ anything too wild
their signage yet either. I personally agree with the Planning
· ~sio~ when they call the ~ signage like a subdivision signage. It
ooks like we coming into the Chanhassen subdivision, not the City of
so I'm not too terribly impressed with their signage either.
Hamilton: I agree with you. I don't know if I've seen anything from
~ilman Johnson: I think it would really delay it to try and get something
ut of BRW.
Brown: The picture that you're looking at doesn't really give you what
t's made out of. I got to go alor~ with you. It doesn't show you what
looking for but why don't you let Barb and I run through what the thing
s going to be made of and present it back here at the next meeting ar~ either
'ire us the thumbs up and let's put it in the ground or let's forget the whole
:ilman ~eving: I don't think that was the motion. I think the motion
go with this thing. Work with our City Staff ar~ do it.
Brown: That' s better yet.
~ilman Geving: That's the ~ray I read the motion.
Dacy: As proposed in there.
~ilman Boyt: It would help me if someone would read the motion because I
idn't get that.
Hamilton: ~he motion was, I moved to approve the issuance of a sign
it for the building of the Chamber sign without conditions as depicted
on Attaclm~ent 3.
Ashworth: Is there a timing associated with this 3 years? 5 years?
years?
Hamilton: No.
19
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Councilman Johnson: I would like to see 4-5 years put on it.
Mayor Hamilton: I guess I'm not concerned about that because as the town
grows they are going to want to change the signage anyway and I think it is
going to be one of those things that's going to become automatically obsolete
and they are going to either want to put a bigger one.
Councilman Johnson: I would like to at least guarantee them 3 years because
if we come in 2 years and say we want to change his signage th~n we have done
a disservice to them.
Mayor Hamilton: ~nere's no time period on there so what I'm saying is they
can put the sign up and the growth of the town can dictate when they want to
change. ~ney may come back in 2 years and say it's not big enough. We want
to put in a bigger one. That would be great.
Gary Brown: If we have to keep adding to it, it will be great for everybody.
Councilman Boyt: I agree. We add to the sign, so much the better. I think
that this looks to me like an attractive sign. When we put it up I think it
is going to have impact on the rest of the signs that go up in Chanhassen so I
don't take this lightly. If we're going to put other signs up that welcome
people to Chanhassen, they are going to have to be consistent with what you
put in the ground already. I think it is conceivable that BRW would come back
with a very acceptable sign that would not be consistent with this and I think
we should have some sort of an opportunity to ask to have this sign removed in
the future and maybe that' s 3 years, maybe that' s 5 years.
Mayor Hamilton: Pat, you've always been very active in signage, do you have
any comments?
Pat Swenson: The only thing that I am bothered with is the one that I've
always had is that I would certainly like to see conformity. If you're
thinking of investing a considerable amount of money, for the Chamber's
benefit as well as the City's benefit, not to have things that are going to
conflict with each other. ~nat would be my own opinion. If in fact the
streetscape comes in with something. I have no idea what the material is. I
don't even know what we're talking about. I can't say at this particular
time but if those of you who have seen it, it's tasteful and it looks like
something you would like the rest of the street signs to look like, I would
have to leave that to your discretion. I would hate to put a sign up that
would fit in with the streetscape that is being considered but having not
seen it T~m I can't speak.
Don Ashworth: I just talked to Roger. I think the Chamber is happy with
time limitation of 3, 4 or 5 years. Again, I would strongly recommend th
In 5 years they can come back, make a reapplication and if you decide to
extend it that's fine. If, in contrast though, they would desire to leave
and the City Council wanted it down, you would have to pay to get it down
Just so you realize that. We would literally end up condemning it and pai
for it to have it removed if we did not put a time limit on it.
2~
a
it
lng
177
ity Council --~c~ting - January 12, 1987
~ilman Geving: Kind of like a conditional use.
Hamilton: I can put in the motion for review in 5 years. I think that
Ld be fine.
Johnson: C~ry, do you have any better drawings as of this date
this sketch that is a couple months old now.
Brown: Yes, I do. ~nat one's be~n passed around and recopied so many
Jmes.
Swenson: Tom, may I ask what the proposed color is of the aluminum
color of the lettering?
Brown: White and black. White background with black letters.
;ilman Johnson: What about the back of the sign that is metal with the
to Chanhassen on it? Is that going to be a piece of sheet metal with
to Chanhassen in black letters ~ white?
Brown: In the original go around, the last time we had any discussion
it, it was brought up about lighting the backside. Making that a lexan
or plastic back, whatever, and lighting that also.
~ilman Johnson: Because the backs important too for people going
Dacy: A final point. I found out late Friday afternoon that you
ill have to apply for a MnDot p~,it as well.
Hamilton: I think that having the approval of the City is going to be
ust a matter of a formality for MnDot to get...
Dacy: They have their supplem~t rules based on the Federal
'.ification Acts for State Highways ar~ so on. It didn't appear to be a
when I talked to the guy at MnDot.
SH SCHEDULE FOR ORDINANCE CODIFICATION PR(X/ESS.
Horn moved, Councilman C~ving ~ecor~ed to set the dates of January
, 1987 and February 2, 1987 at 5:3~ p.m. as Worksession dates fox codifica-
ion of the Ordinance. All v~ted in favor and motion carried.
'.IL PRESENTATIONS:
NOMINATION FOR METROPOLITAN ~IL DISTRICT 14 REPRESENTATIVE, COUNCILMAN
JOHNSON.
Hamilton: Jay Johnson we~t to the meeting with the other communities
the attached memo here tells what took place. I guess your comment that
will be more effective in getting other Metropolitan Council members to
in favor of items which will help District 14. I think Ray has come
21
178
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
through with flying colors on absolutely every instance we've asked him for
help. He has gotten the votes required and got the support of everyone he
needed to accomplish what was needed for the City. I certainly can't argue
with your comment that Marcy is more articulate than Ray. ~nat's just not his
thing I guess.
Councilman Geving: Mr. Mayor, have you read the papers lately?
Mayor Hamilton: Which ones?
Councilman Geving: The committee to nominate the individuals for this job has
already voted to nominate Marcy Waritz and the Governor has already indicated
to Marcy that she will get the nomination letter this week. But
nevertheless, I think it's important as a City, if we're going to support
someone that we should go ahead and do so. I talked with Marcy today on this
and that is exactly what she told me. I read it in the paper yesterday I
believe that the vote was 4-3 but there was one abstention so they called the
4-2 a 4-3 vote and the Governor did talk to Marcy personally at the Inaugrual
and said that she would be. I think it would be in our best interest to
endorse her for this position even though it seems like a nonsense position to
take. It's up to the Council. We had this proposal a couple weeks ago and we
decided to wait until this time period and it came out kind of the way I
thought it might. I was surprised by the strength that she was able to
garner and she never attended the meeting, even at the Governor's office. She
ended up in a car wreck as I understand on that evening that she was supposed
to make a presentation to the Met Council and couldn't present herself so they
didn't know who they were even voting for other than based on her suk~ission
of her own record or whatever but they did vote on it and she is going to be
selected. That is a fact.
Don Ashworth: Councilman Geving is absolutely correct. The committee did
make a recommendation for Waritz. That recommendation is to go to the
Governor's Office and under State Law he is to consider that recommendation.
It also states under the law that he is to meet and confer with the legisla-
tors from that District and consider their comments. I did talk with Bob
Schmitz. I wanted to see how things were going there this afternoon. Three
of the four DFL legislators are supporting Joachim and Senator Schmitz can not
make a prediction. A decision is to occur this next week according to Mr.
Schmitz.
Councilman Horn: What happened to our input in this? I predicted this but
what happened?
Councilman Johnson: The last time I asked, we had enough time if we got our
input in this week. As an individual I have already put in my input for
Marcy. The Council can still pass a resolution supporting someone and pass
that onto the Governor for his consideration.
22
157
Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Hamilton moved to nominate Ray Joachim as the District 14 representative
the Metropolitan Council. There was no second and motion failed.
:il.man Geving moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to nominate Marcy Waritz
the District 14 representative for the Metropolitan Council. All voted in
except Mayor Hamilton who opposed and motion carried.
~ilman Geving: I would like to see the resolution out tomorrow possibly
f w~ can because I think it's important that we move fast on this.
lman Horn: I would like us to have the reading from the Met Council how
expected their procedure to w~rk to get our input.
ON SOUTHWEST CORRIDOR COALITION, COUNCI~ JOHNSON.
~ilman Johnson: They are having another meeting this Wednesday morning.
the Coalition, they got started and got several things going our way
then just kind of stopped their lobbying efforts and somebody outlobbied
out there it looks like and the position for our TH 5 being designed in
1989 all of a sudden moved to November of 1991 which is right after the PGA
lrnament is supposed to be through with here. That doesn't help us much.
a pretty bad impression for the folks that are covering the PGA on
that.
Mayor Hamilton: Tnink how bad it would be if the road was all torn up.
That's exactly why they did that.
Johnson: Did they delay it for the PGA?
Mayor Hamilton: Exactly.
Councilman Johnson: I think it was delayed for that, I hate to say it but the
Shakopee Bridge seems to have moved up on the Agenda for being designed and we
backwards. If the design is complete in 1989 and the PGA is in 1991,
Lldn't construction be done in time for the PGA is the questioru It would
be a feather in the State's hat to have the announcer say how nice it is to
drive to the PGA and easy to get to and this stuff instead of talking about
the cow path that leads out there like it did 30 years ago or whenever the PGA
was there before. I think we r~ to get back ar~ start supporting this or we
will see TH 5 slip back again and that's basically what they want to do is get
back and they will be asking monies. They need money for the lobbying
efforts. They will be discussing this on Wednesday at 7:30. What type of
fundraising t~ need to do? Whether they want the cities to pitch iD. I
know they want to get support from the local business co .mmunity and raise most
of the money there. They would also be looking at a membership cost for the
communities. Dick Feerick is leading it. I didn't catch all the names in
there. We had some folks from ~den Prairie there. The school superintendent
was there. Tne lobbyist, the two lawyers were the lobbyist for this group
there. They had some representatives from MTS. George wasn't there. He had
a representative there who talked for him.
Mayor Hamilton: Did you attend?
23
City Council Meeting - January 12~ 1987
Councilman Horn: No, I misread the a.m.. I was there at 7:30 p.m..
Mayor Hamilton: Tne last time this thing was going on, Clark and I went to a
few meetings and A1 was there, working as the three of us. I think that's a
must to get the same type of mix together again. The Chamber is more
involved. Get people from all different, we want every area represented. I
don't if you are going to be interested to do this or if Clark is again.
Clark has followed this all the way through this and I guess if he is
interested in doing it again. It needs to be the same mix of people again.
You need a person like Butzow. He puts tons of pressure on people in the
State, almost too much.
Councilman Geving: Some of the big developers like Jim Curry and some of
those guys.
Mayor Hamilton: Jim was there. Fred Hoisington from his group and all the
people he represented.
Councilman Geving: I don't think we dropped the ball, Jay, for lack of
interest. I think there were a lot of politics involved in this that just
pulled it away from the southwest area.
Councilman Johnson: There was no comment for almost a year. The Coalition
became inactive.
Councilman Geving: And I saw that.
Councilman Johnson: ~hey all admit it and they saw let's not have that happen
again. That's the whole message here. I'm not sure what we need to be doing
on this tonight.
* A tape break occurred at this point when Mayor Hamilton and Councilman Horn
were making their comments.
Councilman Horn: ...that was the last we ever heard from that group, when he
was elected Chairman until now so I think you're right. I think both of those
happened. I think George thought he had won a victory and I think so did Dick
Feerick and he dropped the ball and didn't pick it up again. It's going to be
tough though I think based on what's happening because it is ground that we've
lost and we're not going to be able to pick up but if we don't start putting
pressure on them, w~'ll just be losing ground.
Mayor Hamilton: Clark you want to be on that committee then?
Councilman Horn: Yes.
Mayor Hamilton: And Jay, I guess is attending and anybody can go to it.
Councilman Johnson: I'll work with Clark on this because we're very
interested in all the highways around here.
Councilman Horn: I don't think we can be over represented on this.
24
179
Council M~ting - January 12~ 1987
:ilman Geving: How about the 29th? Is that th~ one ~ the TH 21/
idor Study?
~rbara Dacy: That meeting is being held at the request of some of the rural
who are abutting...
lman Geving: That must be Sever.
Dacy: Right, inviting the MnDot Staff to the meeting to explain their
iming, acquisition policies, similar meetirg was held in Chaska this summer.
Don and I met with Chaska officials, they are also initiating official
.lat processes so our Staff, Jerry and I are meetirg with MnDot at the er~ of
week to review that process to see exactly where the MnDot Staff is the
of ~ centerline of TH 21/ so that is the purpose of the meeting on
29th. Any Council meuber who wants to can come.
MINNESOTA NBA BASKETBALL REQUEST, CITY
Council members decided to not make a response on the choice of names for
Minnesota NBA Basketball team.
PUBLIC IMP~ HEARING, CITY MANAGER.
~ilman Boyt: I really appreciated having the Article attached, Don, from
Minnesota Cities Magazine I believ~ I thought they made an excellent
~int on the middle of the third column where it says that recent court cases
limited the number of special assessments to the demonstratable increase
.n value that results fr~n that improv~mment. I thought that was excellent.
Ashworth: We did hire an appraiser and he did go through all the parcels
far as establishing the assessment rol~ There is a question in my own
as to which policy the Council would use in terms of the assessment of
store sewer improvements. Again, I simply wanted the Council to be aware
some of the issues that they will face on the 26th.
Hamilton: I think the last time we discussed this last year the
was 4 to 1, Dale was not in favor of including the northern portion
the residential area or any residential area in part of the storm sewer
ect for the downtown.
~ilman Horn: As I read through this, I got the impression from Don that
he was saying was that we really don't have a consistent policy because
we've done.., amd unless I missed something, when I look through this I
I did find a consistency. A consistency I found was that if the
issessment role was not going to be picked up by a private sector person, then
would go on assessments and that is the common thread that I saw
the issues the Council has reviewed in the past. Eib, if the
~sessments were not going to be picked up by someone such as CPT or one of
other businesses who were demanding the improvement or the ~ for
it was put as a general assessment to the peopl~ I think I
that consistency here. I think the point Don is trying to make is that
~imes the City has assessed it to the effected land owners ar~ sometimes
25
180
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
they have not and my exception to that is I think in cases where it wasn't was
because sc~neone was willing to pick it up.
Councilman Geving: I disagree with you. I don't think it's a question of
willing to pick it up. I think if you remember Clark, the CPT situation or
Chan Estates, that was a situation that had to be corrected. It was only
because CPT happened to be building and developing in a development district
at the time that resulted in an enormous problem for us. ~nat entire project
of almost $300,000.00 would have had to be assessed to someone. Fortunately
we had a District at that same time and the CPT area and that district
generated enough funds to handle it and not an individual in Chan Estates was
ever assessed for the project but they could have been. ~aey could very well
have been. I think what Don has put together here and this was not at my
request by the way, he put this together I think to show that there has been
other areas where we've had projects that were not assessed against the
homeowners 100%. Now you're asking approximately 75 homeowners in the
downtown area to pick up about $30,000.00 worth of cost for an assessment of
this project and I'm not so sure in my own mind that there is going to be
$30,000.00 worth of benefit to those 75 homeowners. What I5~ really trying to
say to the Council here, since Don has given me the opportunity by bringing
this out, is that there are many people in the 5 or 6 block area that will
object very vehemently to an assessment cost of nearly $400.00 that they will
apparently try to somehow fix with the downtown redevelopment project and will
say, why should I pay for storm sewers and water drainage that is being
collected down in the downtown redevelopment project. That if it hadn't been
for the development project in the downtown in the first place, the water
would continue to have run like it has run for many, many years through the
normal channels that we have in the downtown area. I think this is totally
over assessment for approximately 75 to 80 homeowners in a small area of the
city to affix a $400.00 assessment against their lots when I can clearly see
and demonstrate now that I have this paper in front of me, where we have 3 or
4 instances where this has not been the policy and that we do have a good
opportunity to take this monies, and I don't know what the exact amount of
monies are in terms of total, but let's say $400.00 per unit and assess it to
the downtown redevelopment project and pay for it in that manner. The same
way that we did with CPT, Chan Estates project and I think I could make a very
strong case and have probably 75 homeowners here for the public hearing to
advise you that this is unfair. To let you know that they are going to be
taken, in my view, advantage of for a project that was not really their
project. I won't belabor this much except to say that I will make every
effort to make sure that these 75 homeowners are well aware of their rights
and that it is unfair for them to pay $400.00 per individual household and lot
owner for this project that is not going to benefit them to the extent that
they are being assessed. I think we can make a very strong case on this.
Again, I agree that in the projects such as Erie Avenue and the
Sunrise/Western Hills project, where those homeowners were assessed, there was
some relief. There was some other relief .provided to take care of ~Aae cost
for their project so there are precedents that have ~-cn set for relaying some
of these expenses back onto either Districts, the downtown development area
or, in the case that we're talking about here, I would say that even if 50% of
the project were assessed, I think that would be fair but not 100%. I can't
see our homeowners paying $400.00 for the project.
26
185
Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
:ilman Johnson: I do believe that this project would go on without the
of the downtown because these improvements ~ to be made. It is
robably part of our problem that Met Council has ~ giving us grief on,
Gary is looking into now. We would have to do something about our storm
and our inadequate sanitary sewers in downtowru We have some problems
there that we're going to have to do something about it whether we
downtown or not, we've got a problem. However, the benefit to folks
Kiowa, Huron and the street inbetween there, Iroquois, those three streets,
benefit to any of those three streets of the storm sewers where they are
they will have the same amount of water running down those three
treets no matter what they do with these storm sewers down on main street and
on Laredo. I can't see any increase value to the residents of those
streets. Maybe the residents on Laredo where we're putting in 3-4 storm
at the intersection of the Fire Department and the Post Office. I can
the school and the City property and the bank property being helped. It
s hard to believe that there is going to even $L00 worth of value to any of
folk's home by improving the folks on Kiowa, Iroquois and Huro~u I
like to see the assessor, in his facts and figures, show what is going
be, as was brought out by Bill recently in this articles, demonstrate an
ncrease in value that results from the improvement. I think Roger wants to
on that.
er Knutson: When it comes to special assessments, there is going to be no
ion that storm sewers are th~ most difficult improvement to specially
The folks at the top of the hill never had a water problem and people
~ bottom of the hill will say it's not our water, it comes from the top
.f the hill. You c~_n argue all day and public hearings can become quite
In response to that, a number of years ago the legislature gave you
opportunity to at least consider another avenue of financing by
a special taxing district. You can draw a circle around the area
.f benefit or the area that you think is deriving benefit from your pipes and
you have. It is an ad valoren tax based on valuation. It is not up
the lot or square foot or anything like that. ~hat's another alternative
consider. If-you use that tax, it's like any other ad valoren tax, you do
have to demonstrate that the value of someone's property increases by the
of the tax.
Johnson: I do agree that some of these streets do have a problem
vith water flowing down the streets, ice at ~ bottom the hill ar~ if our
sewer project took into account and corrected those problems, if we have
storm sewer problems on these streets, we're not correcting their
but we're still assessing ~ I don't know what the cost increase
be to run a storm sewer down to the end of Kiowa. Where Kiowa actually
[id benefit from this project, that seems a reasonable thing to do. ~here is
storm sewer presently on Huron and that can be intercepted. I think our
~s to look at, if we're going to assess these people to give
some benefit at the same time.
Hamilton: I had some of the same points here that Jay just mentioned
that is I would suspect, and even though Roger said that doesn't
latter, if you improve the drainage and storm water run-off in an area that
,roperty values are going to be increased not only by that but by the
27
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
development of the downtown. We development all of downtown, I just can't
believe that people's property is not going to increase in value by more than
what it is going to cost to put in the storm sewer. That is item 1. The
second thing, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask or request or to have
citizens pay something for the development of the downtown. In this case it
is to do a storm sewer for a particular residential area in the community. I
think what we're saying is if they participate it is going to help with the
overall development of downtown. Now the other side can say, why not have
everybody in the town contribute then because everyor~ will benefit from the
development of the downtown here and that's probably something else that we
can look at but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask in the first place.
Then Jay's point also that I agree with that I believe this will be done
whether the downtown area is developed or not, the storm sewer is going to
have to be put in and it is going to be assessed at that time. I guess I'm in
favor of having a public hearing and I don't care if we have 75 people. They
can bring 1,000 people. Taat's the purpose of having a public hearing is to
hear their comments and you make it sound like a threat that you're going to
have 75 people here. Fine, let's hear what they have to say.
Councilman Geving: It's not a threat. These are why people are in a
democracy and they have a right to speak out if they feel they are being
unfairly assessed for a project.
Mayor Hamilton: I guess my point is I would just like to go to a public
hearing and hear what the people have to say.
Councilman Horn: My only response is I don't think, at least it wasn't my
request, that any of us had said that this would be 100% assessed. I thought
the option was the that they would be totally excused from any assessment and
that's the option that I wouldn't favor. I think there should be some
participation of those people and if we find that through the public hearing
process and the study on the feasibility that we can only justify the 50%
because of the assessed valuation, I have no problem with that. All I'm
saying is I think there should be some contribution that is fairly based on
valuation.
Councilman Boyt: A question for Don. How did we get the $30,000.00 figure?
Councilman Geving: That was just a quick calculation on my part.
Councilman Boyt: ~nere is a dollar amount in here ~ere.
Don Ashworth: I believe I used $45,000.00.
Councilman Boyt: What you did, if I understand this properly, you took a
figure that you thought might be reasonable, $500.00 and multiplied that by
the number of homes, is that how?
Don Ashworth: When I prepared my report, I went through the assessment role
and it appeared that the average was $500.00 and there are 90 some homes so I
28
187
Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
okay an average of $45,0~.00. Yesterday one of our part-time people
through and added them up ~ came up with $37,916.00 so it wasn't too
off. To respor~l to something that was brought up, this project does
~lve reduction to the cost for the storm sewer project. Tree total cost we
looked at when we started included the larxt area associated with ~ pond.
kicked up the assessmemt which could not be legally supported. It did
represent a cost typical of any other project because you were creating a
and most other projects we've had a lake to go into. We didn't have to
out and buy a lake. So we knocked out all costs associated with buying the
The second thing was reduction in the assessment of the residential area
50% so the proposed assessment role for the residential area, is 25% of the
~1 real costs associated with the storm sewer and more realistically, 50%
f rrm cost of the storm sewer.
~ilman Boyt: Dale, you mentioned, if we forget the $500.00 amount for a
that a 50% assessment seaued reasonable, just from theory.
:ilman Geving: As a taxpayer and as a citizen who would be involved in
whole process, knowing what we've done in the past, I would say that 50%
s a reasonable amount.
lman Boyt: Now, hearing Don's explanation, does that sound like that's
you were thinking?
(]eying: Yes.
~ilman Boyt: So you wer. e saying, if you pull $500.00 from that, that
be a reasonable figure?
:ilman Geving: I would say that if the initial estimate was $40~.00,
's the figure I got at the other meeting, if that were reduced to $200.00,
think that's a reasonable amount for a homeowner to pay for an assessment at
time.
lman Boyt: So you're thinking 25% then using Don's rough figures?
.ilman Geving: No, Ibm not using his rough figures. I~m using the rough
figures from BRW who gave us a fairly good dollar calculation of what it's
[oing to take to do this project and the figure that I got from Dc~, the other
Ringrose, was $400.00 and if there are in fact, I didn't count up all the
it is 75 plus, in that area, if those people were to be assessed
~200.00 I think that would be reasonable.
Hamilton: I think you're right. Based on what Dcn has said arm1 the
you are saying a quarter...
lman Geving: I think $200.00 is reasonable for this project.
lman Horn: I don't think we should decide. What we're saying is we
the feasibility report.
29
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Councilman Boyt: I'm just trying to get enough background so that I know what
the conversation is here and it sounds like, it seems to me we're talking 25%
which Don is translating that out to, I don't care what the percentage is,
$200.00 is a figure in itself.
Councilman Geving: People are only interested in dollars.
Councilman Boyt: My concern, and I would really appreciate it if someone
could shed a little ltght is I would like to be prepared for what comes at us
regardless of what the issue is in a public hearing. As I was reading this,
if I was living here and looked at my rain water problem right now and the
storm sewer problem and then you guys put this in and I look at my storm sewer
problem, it's going to look like the same problem. Is that right?
Don Ashworth: You're going to see relief to people like Riveria and Kenny's,
etc..
Councilman Boyt: Let's talk about the homeowners. If I'm sitting in a home
over here and I look out and you say I have standing water problems in my
neighborhood, I've got sheeting problems on the road in my neighborhood and
you're going to tell me that we're going to upgrade the storm sewer sysbem and
I'm probably going to say it's about time. Now, as I read this, after you
upgrade my storm sewer system, I still have standing water tn the
neighborhood and I still have sheeting on the road. Is that correct?
Don Ashworth: That's correct.
Councilman Johnson: I have a problem with that.
Councilman Horn: It's the same problem the guy sitting on top of the hill
has. He didn't have a water problem beforehand and he still doesn't have a
water problem.
Councilman Johnson: If he's driving down the hill into the ice, he benefits
from an improvement. It would improve the ice at the bottrxn of the hill.
Councilman Horn: I agree but what I think we need to do though is we need to
talk to our consultants about how we can solve these problems. We're not
going to get that resolved between us. Some of this ice was caused because
sump pumps were pumping into the street and causing it to sheet and if that's
the case, that' s not totally our problem.
Mayor Hamilton: To get back to one thing that Bill said that might put his
mind at ease, when we have a public hearing, there is no response to the
points that are raised. The question is before the public to respond to it.
We do not respond to their questions. We are merely hear to listen to it. We
will respond to it at a later time. We receive all the input, take a look at
it and then we'll get back to them. You don't have to sit here and get into
an argument or be expected to respond to some question immediately because
we're not going to do it.
30
189
itY Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
lman Geving: But my question here Tom is this. ~he notice that goes to
people probably is going to say to them that there is a project that you
be assessed for a certain amount of this project and it is the
~ssessment policy that we're talking about that has to be brought out and
have to be enlightened on. What is it going to cost based on the
that we're talking about?
Hamilton: It depends on what we explain prior.
Geving: As long as they understand percentages ar~ potential for
assessment. I think that's what Don was trying to get at in his...
Boyt: It strikes me that this is fairly important, the public
· part of it. Not just we can get input which will be important but I
we're setting a tone that could easily generate 75 households that vote
'ainst anything that has to do with downtown if we set it to them and I don't
to jeopardize a Five Million Dollars project for $3~,~.~-$4~,~.~ so
.f there is something that we can do that will cause these people to come in
with something other than a loaded gun, it might be a good idea.
Ashworth: So we understand, the figure that Gary had thrown out was 3 1/2
per square foot so if you have a 15,000 square foot lot it comes out to
assessment of about $5~.~. The original assessment, when we look to just
identify storm water, dividing it out over the area was 14 cents pe~ square
That is an average assessment of $2,0~0.00 per lot. We took out the
area (the creation of the lake). That reduced it by or~-half (down to
cents per square foot). We then applied the policY that we used in some of
other projects of basirg the assessment on one-half of the storm sewer
for residential a~d that brought it down to 3 1/2 cents per square
Tb~ point that Jay has made and several of you in terms that we are
to bring out comments regarding the extension of storm sewer. Wbe~r or
we can correct some of these other problems. I really wonder if we're
to be able to do that. It could very well force an extension on the
~y study. My concern is that we're under a relatively fast track with
downtown redevelopment project. If we stay on the schedule, as it is
~utlined right now, we can start construction Jur~ L If we delay ar~ let's
send this thing back to the consultant, we could delay the project this
The original process was one of knowing that we wanted to do certain
.mprovements in the downtown area. We brought in the Watershed District and
what size storm sewer do we need to take care of all of this water ar~
through the whole process in that fashion. You're now going to be adding
new process in saying, how do we exter~ this system back up into the
al area? In some ways I would ilke to see us continue as it is other
than starting a whole new feasibility study just for tb~ extension of storm
up in that neighborhood because I really believe that we will get
fr~n this whole group right along Laredo where tkey have water in
hack-yards. I don't know how we get that out of there. The only way you
could do it would be to run individual drain lines but ~ they have to have
something to dump into so now you are extending a storm sewer system up there
basically to accumulate the drain water.
31
City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Mayor Hamilton: Why not drain it into their backyards?
Don Ashworth: It would become a very expensive process. I always come back
with the position of do we really need the $30,000.00 in assessments from this
area.
Mayor Hamilton: Rather than debate that, can we just decide if we want to go
ahead with the public improvement hearing? I don't think we decided anything.
Don Ashworth: You did authorize the holding of the hearing on the 26th.
We're prepared to send notices out tomorrow.
Mayor Hamilton: Okay, I guess what I'm hearing from the rest of the Council
is as long as the residents have good information really about what's
happening and as long as when the 26th, you or Barb or BRW or somebody
explains very clearly what it is we're trying to accomplish so they understand
very clearly what their part of the project and why we're looking at this and
what is going to be accomplished. What they have now. What they are going to
have when the project is completed and what it is going to cost them and then
listen to their con~ents and then we can go frcm there.
Don Ashworth: You can always reduce it further at a future date. We wanted
the Council to make sure that you knew some of the issues that are involved.
Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn to set the Downtown Public Improvement
Hearing for January 26, 1987. All voted in favor and motion carried.
Councilman Horn: I noticed that since this is an administrative meeting
tonight, I noticed that in going through here that some of our committee
members don't a very good attendance record and I was wondering if we should,
just asa matter of normal review, see these more often and have a recommended
minimum attendance.
Mayor Hamilton: I think we do. We already have a minimum.
Councilman Horn: Some of tl~_m are down near 50% so I'm wondering what our
policy is.
Mayor Hamilton: I think you and I have been through that on the Planning
Conmission.
Councilman Horn: I know we asked one person to leave because his attendance
was improper. What is our requirement and why isn't it being enforced? To me
anything below 75% is inexcusable.
DOn Ashworth: I have a letter noting what Council policy is and that is if
you miss more than 75% of the meetings the Chairman is to request resignation.
Right Barbara?
Barbara Dacy: It is in the HRA By-laws.
Councilman Horn: Just the HRA?
32
191
~ity Council Meeting - January 12, 1987
Ashworth: No, all Commissions. The Council took a policy position on
·
.ilman Boyt: 67% is actually I think what the limit is, isn't it Ix)ri?
,ri Sietsema: We had a big discussion on this at the Park and Recreation
ission and the way that I had interpretted it was that you had to be at
'5% of tt~ meetings. The memo that I got that you had written a numbex of
ago was one so you weren't sure if you could miss 75% or if you had to
at 75%· I~n almost positive that the policy is you are to be at at least
'5% but the policy also states that if you're going to be absent you should
your chair person and it has to be an excused absence.
~ra Dacy: If it's not excused for three times in a row, th~n 'you're out.
Ashworth: We' 11 serzl letters out to anyone below the 75%·
~ilman Geving moved, Oouncilman Horn seconded to adjourn the meeting. All
in favor ar~ motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 1~:00 p.m..
Ashworth
lity Manager
by Nann O~im
33