CC 2008 10 13
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
OCTOBER 13, 2008
Mayor Furlong called the meeting to order at 7:05 p.m. The meeting was opened with the
Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mayor Furlong, Councilman Litsey, Councilwoman
Ernst, Councilwoman Tjornhom, and Councilman McDonald
STAFF PRESENT:
Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Kate Aanenson, Paul Oehme, Todd
Hoffman, Jill Sinclair, and Krista Spreiter
PUBLIC PRESENT:
Emily Fleischauer 71 Choctaw Circle
Liz, Hannah & Kyle Hoffman 6891 Utica Lane
Marcus Zbinden 6460 Bretton Way
Leo Hofmeister 8622 Flamingo Drive
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
Mayor Furlong: Thank you and welcome to everyone here in the council chambers and those
watching at home. We’re glad that you joined us this evening. At this time I would ask
members of the council if there are any modifications to our agenda this evening. If not, we’ll
proceed with the agenda as published. I would like to start with a couple of public
announcements. The first of which is an invitation to the City’s Halloween Party. With fall
being upon us the City of Chanhassen, in cooperation with our local businesses is proud to
announced the fourth and final event of our year long 2008 special event series. Join us for the
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annual Halloween Party which will be held on Saturday, October 25. At this time I’d invite all
residents, their families and friends to join us at the Chanhassen Rec Center for this event.
Children ages 2 to 10 are invited to participate with the event running between 5:30 and 7:30
p.m. Activities will include family entertainment by a local theater group, Igor’s Players,
presenting the Halloween That Almost Wasn’t. Trick or treating will take place. Option spooky
rooms, hay rides, children’s games, refreshments. It’s a lot of fun. Pre-registration is required
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by Friday, October 24. The day before the event, and you can register either at City Hall or the
Chanhassen Rec Center. There is a fee of $5.00 per child. Adults are free so Mr. Gerhardt, you
don’t have to pay again this year. And that covers all the activities and a lot of fun for all so look
forward to seeing you at the great event. I know our Park and Recreation Commission
participates in that and we appreciate all their volunteer time and efforts as well. Now I’d like to
make some presentations and make some comments with regard to participants and winners in
the Water Wise Conservation Contest, so I’m going to come down to the front here and ask
others to join me in just a moment. This evening I’m proud to present some of the awards for the
2008 Water Wise Conservation Contest. The contest was sponsored by the City of Chanhassen,
funded with a grant from the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency. Participants in the contest
were challenged to reduce their water usage over the 3 summer months, June, July and August
City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
compared to last year’s usage. The household with the greatest reduction won. In Chanhassen
the typical 4 person household uses about 940 gallons of water per day. That’s 300 cases of
water, bottled water. The reason and just to talk real quickly. The reason we got into this at all,
as many know about, is some of the water problems we had last summer, in the summer of 2007.
With the drought and with the demand on our city water supply, a couple of our wells ran dry.
While we could go through a process of replacing the wells, and we’ve done that, and got
replacement wells back on line, we also use this as an opportunity to encourage conservation and
the people that we’re going to be talking with tonight and a number of other people that weren’t
able to make it here this evening, and all our residents I think gained a greater awareness of our
water use and how we use it and where we can conserve, and I think everyone would agree that
being stewards of natural resources, using the resources in an appropriate manner, is something
that we can all support. So we do appreciate it and as I know the council as well appreciates
everyone that was involved in this contest, and even those members of our city that weren’t
involved in the contest, and all the work that they did in terms of working at water conservation
this last year. As I said, the average member 4 person household uses about 940 gallons of
water per day. The first place winner had an average daily usage of 483 gallons per day. A
reduction of nearly half the average usage. What I’d like to do is invite some of the participants
in the program to come forward and receive a gift in recognition of their participation. I believe
some of them are here with us this evening. Leo Hofmeister. Is Leo here?
Leo Hofmeister: Yep.
Mayor Furlong: Good evening.
Leo Hofmeister: Thanks.
Mayor Furlong: Rose Kircher. Is Rose here? Hi Rose. Good to see you.
Rose Kircher: Nice to see you Tom. Thank you.
Mayor Furlong: Karen Klinsing. Klinsing. Thanks. Third place participants reduced their
water usage by 60% and saved 70, excuse me. 47,000 gallons of water this summer. Please help
me congratulate the Kristy Strang household. Is Kristy here? Congratulations. Second place
participants were close runners up to the first place winners. The Hoffman family reduced their
water usage by, this summer by over 62%. Congratulations to the Hoffman family. And finally
the winning household this year reduced it’s water usage by nearly 64% with a savings of 78,000
gallons of water. I’d like to congratulate Marcus and Jennifer Zbinden in being the winners of
this year’s Water Wise Conservation Contest. Marcus, anything you want to say on how you did
it?
Marcus Zbinden: Actually I really appreciate the City for doing this. I really support a
conservation efforts and the main way that I saved water was to stop watering my lawn
throughout the summer. Previous years I was real active in watering my lawn. Keeping it nice
and green. This year I didn’t water it at all through whole the summer, which helped not only
save water but I didn’t have to mow my lawn either, which was really cool. But right now it
was, it got yellow during the summer but now in the fall it’s green. It looks great now so I
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
recommend that everybody move towards that type of watering system for sure so. And then the
other thing is my kids and, we all took shorter showers which was real beneficial. We got a
better appliance for washing dishes so a couple things that we did to reduce our water usage.
Mayor Furlong: Very good, thank you. I’d also like to make a quick announcement. It wasn’t
on our published agenda. I just found out about it this evening but one of the projects that the
City of Chanhassen worked on with some of our residents and neighbors along the new 101,
south of Highway 5 between Highway 5 and 212. As many of you know that section of road was
upgraded, realigned, expanded and greatly improved as part of the 212 project and other projects
that we were working on, and the residents in that area, there was a wide grass median between
the old 101 and the new aligned 101. Work with the City and with the Department of
Transportation in seeking to plant trees there and in a cooperative manner where the, MnDot
provided funding and the residents provided the volunteer service hours and the City of course
participated in coordinating the efforts as well as other activities, and this last week I believe the
City and the neighbors on 101 received the Treescaping Award for the Minnesota Society of
Arborculture at their annual awards dinner last Thursday based upon MnDot’s, and we received
a nice plaque for it and I’ll pass this around so people can see it, and as I understand the
neighbors were there. Many of our neighbors were there. I see some of them in the audience
here as well and participated in that so I’ll pass this around but very nice recognition. A really a
cooperative effort between our citizens, the City and the State agency, MnDot in making our city
more beautiful from a natural feature standpoint so, I’ll pass that around and we can let
everybody get a chance to see that. Okay. Let’s move on with some of the business this
evening.
CONSENT AGENDA:
Councilman Litsey: I’m in favor of number (f). It’s just that I thought maybe we could highlight
a little bit the benefit of adding this generator to City Hall. How that compliments our
emergency preparedness efforts and, so just a little dialogue from staff of what that entails. I
plan on just approving it but if we could just maybe talk a little bit.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, let’s just pull that, okay. That’s fine. Okay. Do you want to remove it
from the consent agenda then?
Councilman Litsey: Well, I just would like to, people to understand how it’s going to help out
emergency preparedness readiness here at City Hall and so forth. Maybe I just brought attention
to it so that’s all we need to say but maybe just a quick.
Mayor Furlong: Alright, let’s pull that off. I’m sorry. Mr. Gerhardt.
Todd Gerhardt: I could just add a quick comment here.
Mayor Furlong: Maybe identify the item.
Todd Gerhardt: Yeah. Item (f) is back-up standby generator for City Hall. City Hall has been
designated as our emergency command center in the case of an emergency. Good example
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
would be the tornado that occurred in Hugo. Their emergency command center was at city hall
and when you have a tornado or some type of emergency event that goes on, you typically lose a
lot of your utilities and for us to operate effectively in that type of situation, we need a back-up
generator to run computers, copiers. To get information out to the public. So the council saw
the need in that. We talked at, at least two work sessions to discuss the type of generator that we
should acquire, and the size of it to meet our needs. And tonight what we are doing is approving
the bids that we received for that standby generator. It will be located on the north wall of city
hall here and which leads directly to our electrical system, and it’s going to help us in an
emergency situation.
Councilman Litsey: And just quickly, I think it just it compliments, like I said, the efforts of this
council, which I commend to, and staff, to put an emphasize of emergency preparedness and
make government more operational in times of disaster so I’m really pleased that we’re adding
this item so with that I move that we approve the consent agenda as proposed by staff.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. And along with that motion just sure, as soon as I’m sure that
there’s nobody else that wants to adopt something. It’s not that, you’ll get it but, are there any
other items on the consent agenda that anyone would like separate discussion on? Okay, if not
then we do have a motion from Councilman Litsey to adopt the consent agenda as published,
items 1(a) through (i). Is there a second?
Councilman McDonald: I’ll second.
Councilman Litsey moved, Councilman McDonald seconded to approve the following
consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager’s recommendations:
a. Approval of Minutes:
-City Council Work Session Minutes dated February 4, 2008
-City Council Work Session Minutes dated February 7, 2008
-City Council Work Session Minutes dated September 8, 2008
-City Council Verbatim and Summary Minutes dated September 8, 2008
Receive Commission Minutes:
-Planning Commission Verbatim and Summary Minutes dated September 2, 2008
-Planning Commission Work Session Minutes dated September 16, 2008
Resolution #2008-49:
b. Accept Three Donations to the Chanhassen Senior Center from
Community Bank Chanhassen, KleinBank Chanhassen and Marion Stultz.
c. Approval of Amendments to Chapter 20 of City Code Concerning Zoning Regulations;
including Summary Ordinance for Publication Purposes.
Resolution #2008-50:
d. Approve Resolution Requesting Reimbursement for Community
Roadside Landscape Partnership Grant.
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
e. Approval of On-Sale Temporary Liquor License for November 8, 2008, St. Hubert
Catholic Community, 8201 Main Street.
Resolution #2008-51:
f. Approval of Quotes for City Hall Standby Generator
Improvements.
Resolution #2008-52:
g. 2008 Street Improvement Project 08-01: Approve Quote for
Storm Pipe Replacement on Beachlot.
Resolution #2008-53:
h. Public Works Maintenance Facility Project 08-03: Approve
Quotes for Granular Borrow Material and Trucking Services.
Resolution #2008-54:
i. Resolution Authorizing Execution of Limited Use Permit with
State of Minnesota, Department of Transportation for a Pedestrian Trail in the Right-of-
Way of State Highway 41.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
None.
NICK’S STORAGE & PARKING: REQUEST FOR AMENDMENT TO CONDITIONAL
USE PERMIT, 1900 STOUGHTON AVENUE, APPLICANT: JACQUES GIBBS.
Mayor Furlong: Let’s start with the staff report please. This is an item that we’ve had before us
so maybe if you could give us an update of where we were and where we are to this evening.
Kate Aanenson: Thank you Mayor. This item has been on for a number of City Council
meetings. So we do have a quick power point just to kind of remind everybody how the issues.
Originally there was 3 issues. Expansion of the outdoor storage, signage variances, and so we
think, and amendment to that conditional use so I think we resolved a couple of the issues so I’ll
go through those again. Reminding you the site is outlined in yellow on the picture here. And
located on Stoughton Avenue at 212 as you indicated. The original request for the amendment to
the conditional use and interim use permit was for the 60 outdoor storage parking stalls. As you
recall we did resolve that if the additional buildings were to be placed on the site, then that would
eliminate the outdoor storage. That would have to go away with the expansion of the next phase,
so that would eliminate that and I think there’s concurrence on that. The other issue, issue
number 3 that we did resolve was the storage. They did work out with the adjoining property
owner to provide the storm water pond. One of the conditions of approval with this application
then would be to get security to make sure that happens in a timely manner. So that issue has
been resolved. Then the last issue that we spent quite a bit of time on last meeting was actually
the signage, and we talked about what were the ordinances in place, and we felt that there could
be some relief, but as it turns out in looking through the variance, or the standards that were in
place in 1986, that it really eliminated, they have to eliminate one sign but other than that the rest
of the signs that stay in place do meet the requirements. There have to be some minor
modifications, which the applicant has agreed to, so therefore the sign variances do go away. I’ll
show those specifically by location. The first sign, the entrance sign is a, must be a ground low
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
profile. Again these are to be legal, non-conforming. Have to be consistent with the standards
that were in place in 1986. So this is what they would be. A low ground profile so it means it
has to be as our ordinance defined it back then, affixed to the ground so that needs to be lowered.
Sign number 2 must be removed from the site. It’s off premise and that’s the one we showed
that we had recommended a variance before but now we’re going with a variance free, going
back to the 1986 rules. Sign number 3 was permitted. A pylon sign was permitted in 1986.
Again there’s still disagreement whether or not there was permits issued but we’ve agreed to
acquiesce on that issue and just follow those 1986 rules. So they will re-face the sign and then
again get a sign permit to be consistent with the ordinance. And then the fourth sign would be
the directional sign removed from the site, so the signs, the two signs permitted then which
they’ve agreed to. So with that, we are recommending approval. Again it’s the amendment to
the conditional use which would allow the outdoor storage, and that goes away with Phase III.
And again they do have to do conditions in the staff report and specifically a lot of those relate to
the drainage and the security posting and make sure that that is resolved. So with that we are
recommending approval.
Mayor Furlong: Questions for staff. Anybody want to start? Councilwoman Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: You know actually I don’t. I think the staff report was pretty self
explanatory. I think this is the third meeting obviously we’ve had so I’m just relieved that
everything got resolved. It’s working out for all parties. On working on the issues.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any other questions at this point? The, could you go back to the
sign number 3 which I think is the pylon sign. You say a sign permit is required.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Furlong: So as part of the condition they’re going to have to submit for a sign permit for
this pylon sign.
Kate Aanenson: Yep.
Mayor Furlong: And then is the current design of that sign, did that meet the standard?
Kate Aanenson: That’s correct.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. So the lights on the inside and the plastic.
Kate Aanenson: Yep, and the one issue that we did resolve was the size of the logo. There’s a
certain percentage requirement. They did calculate that so it is compliant with the current
regulations as far as what can appear on the sign itself.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. And all that information would be contained in the permit that they.
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
Kate Aanenson: Correct. And we have verified that ahead because if they did want a variance,
we wanted to make sure we didn’t have to come back again so all that, the actual permit was
reviewed so it is compliant so it’s just a matter of issuing it after your direction tonight.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. And so the, just to be clear what staff is recommending is the
red lined motion that’s in the staff report.
Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. And we did do new Findings of Fact because things have
changed. The variances are no longer applicable so the Findings of Fact have been revised and
that’s also a part of the motion there too.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Any other questions at this time?
Councilman Litsey: Just quickly. So then in essence we’re going back to 1986. Using that as
our benchmark for whether or not these signs meet the ordinance at that point in time?
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Councilman Litsey: And that was kind of a compromise worked out and everyone’s in
agreement.
Kate Aanenson: Yes, that’s correct.
Councilman Litsey: Good work coming to a resolution.
Mayor Furlong: And I think the clarification there is, is that they have to be conformance with
what was in place in.
Councilman Litsey: At that time.
Mayor Furlong: At that time so.
Kate Aanenson: That’s correct. So they still had to make some modifications. The one sign that
was too tall. Didn’t meet even back then the monument definition.
Mayor Furlong: Yep.
Kate Aanenson: So they did have to make some changes.
Mayor Furlong: And the other ones are coming out. The pylon sign is allowed.
Kate Aanenson: Right. And then what the lettering and the logo meets the current sign
ordinance so it’s a compromise.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
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Councilman Litsey: So it created more common ground in which to reach a compromise
basically.
Kate Aanenson: I think so. I think so yeah.
Councilman Litsey: Great, okay.
Kate Aanenson: And that from the beginning was their issue was getting the pylon sign. Again
we acquiesced on whether or not there were permits issued at that time. The legality of that. We
just went back to what the rules were in place and again tried to find that middle ground.
Mayor Furlong: Alright. Any other questions for staff at this time? The applicant’s here, or at
least their representative is here. Would you like to come forward sir?
Craig Mertz: We support the staff report.
Mayor Furlong: If I can have you come to the microphone just to make sure people at home can
hear and introduce yourself for the record.
Craig Mertz: Craig Mertz here, attorney for the applicant and we have read the staff report and
Mr. Gibbs, the President of the company is here along with his on-site manager and we support
the staff report.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Any questions for the applicant? No? Okay. Let’s bring it
to council then. Any thoughts or discussion?
Councilman McDonald: Well I guess I’m just glad to find that the, we’re able to resolve this in a
manner beneficial to both parties so hats off to staff and also to the applicant for working with
staff, so thank you.
Mayor Furlong: Anything else? No? I would concur. That being said, if there’s no further
discussion on this item, is there a motion? I believe it begins on page 12 of the staff report.
Kate Aanenson: Or you can read it on the front page too.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Does the front page one work too?
Kate Aanenson: Yes it will.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Okay. I’ll go ahead and make a motion.
Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Make a motion the City Council approves an amendment to the
Conditional Use Permit #87-2, Planning Case #08-10 to permit a total of 60 outdoor storage
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
spaces to be located in Phase III of the site subject to conditions 1 through 15 on pages 12
through 14 of the staff report and the attached Findings of Fact and Decision.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there a second?
Councilman Litsey: Second.
Mayor Furlong: Motion’s been seconded. Any further discussion of the motion?
Councilwoman Tjornhom moved, Councilman Litsey seconded that the City Council
approves an amendment to Conditional Use Permit #87-2 to permit a total of 60 outdoor
storage spaces to be located in Phase III of the site and the attached Findings of Fact and
Decision, subject to the following conditions:
1.The 60 parking stalls for various vehicle storage, shall be confined to the area labeled Phase
III in the staff report and the area shall have a gravelor grass surface.
2.The applicant shall provide 15 Black Hills Spruce along the fence line to provide 100 percent
screening of the outdoor storage area.
a.The applicant shall submit a letter of credit to cover the cost of material installation and
one year warranty.
3.Drainage and utility easement is shown but must be revised to include:
a.Add ten feet of width for a total of 20 feet of easement between the drive entrance and the
pond easement.
b.Provide drainage and utility easement description and drawing.
c.Drainage and utility easement must cover entire 944 contour on the east side of the pond.
4.Update sheet 2 of 2 skimmer detail to show a berm elevation of 744.
5.Plans and report must be signed by a registered engineer registered in the state of Minnesota.
6.
Security of $12,000 must be provided to the city for the construction of the pond and
maintenance of erosion control, along with the signed CUP agreement.
7.The pond must be completed no later than November 15, 2008.
8.A detailed erosion control plan will be needed. At a minimum, this plan shall include:
a.Erosion control blanket (category 3) on all slopes 3:1 or steeper. This includes the ponds.
b.Perimeter silt fence needs to be shown. A re-vegetation plan for all disturbed areas.
Deep-rooted woody vegetation is encouraged north of the outdoor storagearea.
c.An inspection of erosion control must be conducted prior to construction commencement.
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
9.Any additional development to Parcel A or Parcel B shall require additional stormwater
ponding. (This would include Phase III of Parcel A).
10.The 60 outdoor storage units shall not increase the hard surface coverage on the site.
11.The outdoor storage shall be removed from the site upon completion of Phase III of the mini-
storage facility.
12.Sign 2, the ground low profile sign along Old Highway 212, must be removed.
13.Sign 4, the directional sign at the corner of Old Highway 212 and Stoughton Avenue, must
be removed.
14.Sign 1, the entrance sign along Stoughton Avenue:
a.Shall meet the definition of a ground low profile sign in that it must be in contact with the
ground;
b.May not exceed 64 square feet of sign display area;
c.May not be greater than 8 feet in height;
d.A sign permit must be approved prior to alterations and Signs 2 and 4 must be removed
prior to sign permit approval.
15.Sign 3, the pylon sign along Old Highway 212 - A sign permit must be approved prior to
alterations and Signs 2 and 4 must be removed prior to sign permit approval.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
ARBORETUM SHOPPING CENTER: CONSIDER REQUEST FOR A MINOR
PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT (PUD) AMENDMENT TO ALLOW AN LED
MOTION SIGN ON THE PERMITTED SIGN ON PROPERTY LOCATED AT 7755
CENTURY BOULEVARD (LOT 2, BLOCK 1, ARBORETUM SHOPPING CENTER).
APPLICANT: SIGN SOURCE & NORTH COAST PARTNERS, LLP.
Kate Aanenson: Thank you. This application is an amendment to a PUD. This is a
neighborhood shopping center district and this item was held, a public hearing was held before
nd
the Planning Commission on September 2. They did spend some time discussing motion signs
and how they’re interpreted and I’ll discuss that in a minute as we go forward. This sign does,
this property is located on the intersection of Century Boulevard and Highway 5. When the sign
package was put together, that back lot does abut residential. While there is a buffer there
because of the Bluff Creek overlay zoning district, the property in this corner up in here is part of
the Arboretum Village. So in looking at the sign package there it was intended to actually put a
sign for this property, instead of on the street frontages, to Highway 5 where it got better
visibility. So this is the sign we’re talking about. The PUD says monument signs only. Not to
exceed 10 feet, and then the Lot 2, which is this front, also has a sign, a monument sign for the
gas station. So in looking at that amendment, and the location of the signs, the applicant wanted
to do a pretty large scrolling, changeable copy sign. So in looking at reviewing that, we want to
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
be consistent with what we’ve allowed for other signs. So what this request is for a minor PUD
amendment on the electronic reader sign, which is a, we could put into the PUD amendment as,
or as a conditional use and other zoning districts. So what we’re recommending here is
amending the PUD to allow the electronic changeable copy, so that’s the actual request. So the
current sign would be what’s out there today, and the uses that are in those back businesses. So
there would still be some space but what the recommendation is, consistent with what allowed
for changeable copy, to put that on the top. There’s numerous iterations on this when it was
appeared before staff to get a much larger sign and didn’t want to go down that road. Certainly
we think that the changeable copy architecturally could be nicer than a lot of the read that might
be harder to get on the sign. Again some of the concern too was that the existing gas station
sign, the proliferation of some of the temporary signs out there, that we’re hoping too while
they’re different owners, the original developer trying to work through some of those issues. So
the applicant’s intent is to advertise more visibility for that back lot. Again we put that up front
on Highway 5 to get better visibility. In turn what we were looking at is to get rid of some of
that temporary signage on Lot 1. Again some of that’s related to the gas station and so any,
we’re hoping that the LED, by allowing some changeable copy on that, to accommodate some of
the gas station’s needs. Any questions so far on that?
Mayor Furlong: Is this sign on Lot 1?
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Mayor Furlong: It’s on the same lot as the gas station?
Kate Aanenson: Yes. Yes. Yes. The gas station sign is actually in this area here.
Mayor Furlong: But it’s on Lot 2 I should say.
Kate Aanenson: Yes. Yes. Yeah. They’re both on the same lot. And again that was put
together with the PUD because it was felt like because the residential behind, and there isn’t
much visibility there. That really the traffic seeing that would probably read from Highway 5.
Making the turn to go into to support those businesses. And the way it’s set up, the gas station
and the car wash really does kind of screen that back area.
Mayor Furlong: So is the, in terms of the temporary signage for the gas station business, part of
the conditions here is to eliminate that.
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Mayor Furlong: And use the electronic sign to promote temporary.
Kate Aanenson: That was what we communicated to the applicant. That we believe that would
be the purpose and the intent of amending that is that should help eliminate.
Mayor Furlong: And were they in agreement with that?
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
Kate Aanenson: They said they were.
Councilman Litsey: Can I just ask one quick. On LED on the sign, is that, the height of the
lettering really going to be that visible?
Kate Aanenson: Well you know there was discussion on that regarding the height of that and if
you look at what the size of this is compared to what you would have for example on the Legion
on Highway 5. That was really our first one on Highway 5 and there was some debate among
the council on that, whether or not that would be an issue. I think what came up and one of the
neighbors spoke on this issue too. We looked at the spacing from the intersection. That’s why
we located it at that. It’s further from the intersection so you don’t have the dual read of the
signal and the sign itself. So this is further from the intersection. But one of the neighbors did
speak about the concern about that and the Planning Commission did spend some time talking
about what’s scrolling. What’s changeable because our ordinance is a little bit ambiguous on
that. We do have most of the changeable copies that we have in the city, do roll and not with a
lot of frequency but they do change. The Walgreen’s sign. Even Chapel Hill. The high school
ones. They change with different events so we’re trying to regulate some of that and we’re going
to come back with more specifics but in the staff report itself we did address kind of some of
those issues. Engineering also looked at some issues regarding safety and some of that too. But
I think it was very difficult to say, if you look at what we put in the staff report, on page 2 of the
updated, after the Planning Commission. When we looked at the other ones. Are they scrolling?
Are they changing? Are they in motion? Trying to find some uniformity and language and what
that means. Is it color bursting? Is it monochromatic? So that’s kind of what we looked at.
Most of these signs are either yellow or amber or the red. It’s how they read, so they’re singular
color. So in the discussion we kind of reached a consensus that we looked at what Minnetonka
and Eden Prairie are doing about changeable copies. That is our interpretation that the current
ordinance prohibits flashing scrolling but errs on the side of caution so we’re kind of trying to
regulate that, that it doesn’t become a nuisance. Because the other one that does change a lot
also is the movie theater sign, which is red. That changes with some regularity. So we haven’t
had a lot of complaints or issues with that too, but that’s something that we’re monitoring, and
we’ll be looking at that on the code update too.
Councilman Litsey: I mean in reading through, it just seems to me that scrolling probably is
perhaps the most pragmatic in terms of people.
Kate Aanenson: Trying to read it, right.
Councilman Litsey: Read it and diverting their attention away than just.
Kate Aanenson: Changing.
Councilman Litsey: Changing isn’t you know, if it’s done at reasonable intervals isn’t probably
going to be that bad but if we, I don’t know. So they haven’t really decided what they’re going
to do for sure there?
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Kate Aanenson: Right. And I think that’s something that we’ll be coming back with more
specifics on that. How they would adapt that and they’re aware that we’re looking at that too.
That issue.
Councilman Litsey: So by approving this though we’re not necessarily for certain what we’re
going to end up with.
Kate Aanenson: Well again, we have a lot of different iterations of that right now. We don’t
really have a lot of problems in the areas that we have that. Even on the Legion site, which is
probably on about equal volume or speed of traffic.
Councilman Litsey: Yeah I would say so.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, and that one does change. Advertising a steak fry or activities that they
have there too so.
Todd Gerhardt: And enforcement is difficult. Sometimes it’s scrolling. Sometimes it’s set and
you know, you’re out there and you’re trying to take pictures.
Councilman Litsey: It changes.
Todd Gerhardt: It changes.
Kate Aanenson: It changes, yeah you know.
Todd Gerhardt: Or we’re not there when it’s scrolling.
Kate Aanenson: Right. Even the Walgreen one too. We haven’t seen an increase in traffic
issues there so we are trying to monitor that and trying to get some more specific language to
bring some uniformity to it. Obviously this is kind of a new technology that a lot of cities are
struggling with too. It’s not the same as the reader billboards. So I mean you have to kind of
look at, that’s at one end of the spectrum and we’re at the other end, so we are looking at that and
try to come to consensus. But we felt that this provides an opportunity to create a message
without having a proliferation of some of this other stuff that they’re trying to create. We felt
that was a good thing.
Councilman Litsey: Okay, thanks.
Kate Aanenson: Yep. Let’s see, so that was the, so the staff report was amended to talk about
the scrolling part, and then that, we’ll re-examine the city codes is what we’re also
recommending from that Planning Commission update. So then the motion then before you
would be to amend the shopping center PUD to allow the sign criteria, allowing for electronic
message center, and again the motion is on the front page of your staff report, and I’d be happy
to answer any other questions that you may have.
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Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any other questions for staff at this time? Councilwoman
Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: I don’t know if it’s a question but a comment. Maybe an observation
and correct me because I’m probably just not reading it right in the staff report but I think it says
under the current ordinance many of the signs are in violation of city code. So does that mean
that everyone has to get a special permit to have these and go through that process now?
Kate Aanenson: I think when we adopted the LED, we didn’t go back and modify what we said
scrolling and that so when we adopted a new, allowing a new format, or new technology but
didn’t go back and look at our ordinance so they’re in conflict so we need to reconcile those so
the Planning Commission also pointed out, so we’ll be coming, bringing that back forward to
you because we’ve already permitted a lot of them. Our ordinance does allow electronic
message boards and I think the purpose of electronic message boards is that you can change the
message, as opposed to going out and moving the letters. So what does that mean? You can
only change it once a day? Once a week? And that’s where we missed changing that part of the
language so they’re in conflict with each other and we recognize that so we’ll be fixing that. But
you’re right. Right now they are in conflict.
Mayor Furlong: And until we get that, until we go through the Planning Commission to the
council and come to a resolution, we’re not going to be citing anybody for.
Kate Aanenson: No. No, because we’ve permitted them and I think the ones that we, the ones
that we’ve legitimately permitted are, we haven’t had any problems with.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: No, well I mean I’m sorry. I don’t mean to cause a whole big issue.
Kate Aanenson: No, the Planning Commission brought up the same thing and it’s something we
need to resolve.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yeah because, like I said you know, having to have every one of
these people pay $300 to.
Kate Aanenson: Right, no.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Get permission to use their sign correctly.
Kate Aanenson: And I think too once we do this, that would be a great group to invite in to
review the ordinance to see how it’s working for them or any issues that, because they’re using
it. To give us some guidance.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Because I can see this as kind of a wave of the future.
Kate Aanenson: Right.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: More and more businesses are going to.
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Kate Aanenson: Well we want to employ it. At the library site. We talked about that. The high
school’s going to use it so, you know we need to get up to speed on that. On what that means.
Mayor Furlong: And I think your comment that the whole reason to have an electronic sign is so
the message can change from time to time. That’s why you do it.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, instead of going out and moving the letters around.
Mayor Furlong: Yeah. Turning individual ones on and off.
Kate Aanenson: Like the gas signs used to do, yeah.
Councilwoman Ernst: A reverse strategic initiative.
Mayor Furlong: There you go. Any other questions on this for staff? If not is the applicant here
this evening? Do you see them here?
Kate Aanenson: No. Mr. Clark, no I do not.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Okay.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: They left a message on their scrolling sign.
Mayor Furlong: Well I hope they don’t have it up yet. Okay. Since they’re not here, any
questions. Does anybody have any questions for the applicants that they wanted to ask? Okay.
Comments from council. Thoughts or comments. Makes sense for people to move forward.
Councilman McDonald: Yeah, I guess the thing that I would look forward to is, and I think Kate
mentioned most of it but I’d like to know the purpose of these signs from a business perspective.
Not an individual business but you know what are we trying to accomplish here? And then I
think from there as we discuss what the ordinance should be, to try to adopt something to again
help business. There are limits as Kate said. You’ve got a wide spectrum of you know what
you’re looking at for signs here. But this continues to come up and it’s just, yeah I’d like to see
us move towards something because people, as you say, they’re violating the ordinance, or
they’re interpreting it completely wrong or they’re just kind of saying well, we’re going to invest
all this money and stick it out there. What are you going to do about it? So yeah, I’d like to see
us adopt something that’s consistent but yet meets the needs of business and I think that’s one
thing that I’m afraid may be missing because I don’t hear a lot, I hear from residents. I
understand their concerns but what’s business saying about this? I think they need to come and
tell us what’s the purpose of these signs so that we can craft an ordinance that will you know
help us now and in the future. So that’s the only comment I would get and I don’t know if you
can get anybody to come forward and help or not but I would encourage that.
Mayor Furlong: I would think the Chamber of Commerce would be interested in participating in
that. I think that would be a good representation of our businesses here in Chanhassen.
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Councilman McDonald: I would agree.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Any other thoughts or comments? If not, would somebody like to make
a motion?
Councilwoman Ernst: I will make one.
Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Ernst.
Councilwoman Ernst: I make a motion that we approve the Planned Unit Development
Amendment for Arboretum Shopping Center PUD 03-06, Planning Case #08-17, amending the
design standards Section e. Signage Criteria to allow an electronic message center on an existing
monument sign as specified pages 4 and 5 of the staff report.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there a second?
Councilman McDonald: I’ll second it.
Mayor Furlong: Motion’s been made and seconded. Any discussion? If there’s no further
discussion we’ll proceed with the vote.
Councilwoman Ernst moved, Councilman McDonald seconded to approve the Planned
Unit Development amendment for Arboretum Shopping Center (PUD 03-06), Planning
Case #08-17, amending the design standards Section e. Signage Criteria, to allow an
electronic message center on an existing monument sign as follows:
Monument Sign
1.Lot 1 shall not contain any monument signs. In return, the applicant shall be permitted to
place a 10-foot high sign with a maximum area of 48 square feet along Highway 5 on Lot
2.
a.An electronic message center sign may be permitted as part of the 48 square-foot
sign display area in lieu of alternative temporary signage and shall comply with
the following standards:
i.No electronic message center sign may be erected that, by reason of
position, shape, movement or color interferes with the proper functioning
of a traffic sign, signal or which otherwise constitutes a traffic hazard.
ii.Electronic message center displays shall not exceed 5,000 Nits between the
hours of civil sunrise and civil sunset and shall not exceed 500 Nits between
the hours of civil sunset and civil sunrise.
iii.Electronic message center signs shall not cause direct glare nor become a
distraction due to excessive brightness.
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
iv.The lamp wattage and luminance level in candelas per square meter (Nits)
shall be provided at the time of permit applications.
v.There shall be no electronic message center signs in the front setback area
within 50 feet of a street intersection (as measured from intersecting right-
of-way lines) or within 125 feet of a residential district, except where
lighting for such sign is indirect or diffused and in no way constitutes a
traffic hazard.
vi.Electronic and non-electronic message center sign display area used on a
sign shall not exceed a total of 40 square feet or 25 percent of the allowable
sign area, whichever is less. The message displayed on electronic message
center signs shall be depicted in one statement and not a continuing
sentence or flow of information. Flashing, scrolling, special effects or
animated scenes on electronic reader boards shall be prohibited.
vii.Electronic message center sign LED display use for signs within 500 feet of
single-family residential homes shall be limited to the hours between 6:00
a.m. and 10:00 p.m.
viii.Temporary signage other than that depicted on the LED display is
prohibited for tenants on Lot 1.
2.Lot 2 will contain one monument sign at the intersection of Highway 5 and Century
Boulevard. The height of the sign shall not exceed 5 feet with an area of 24 square feet.
3.All signs shall be built of materials similar to those used on the exterior of the buildings
and complement their architectural design. The signs must maintain a minimum 10-foot
setback from the property lines.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
CONSIDER APPROVAL OF THE CONTRACT FOR CONSTRUCTION
MANAGEMENT SERVICES, NEW PUBLIC WORKS BUILDING.
Paul Oehme: Thank you Mayor, City Council members. I’d just like to briefly talk a little bit
about construction management as it’s different, it’s basically a new type of contract. A new
type of procedure model that the City would like to implement for this new public works facility.
Basically the City has two main models that we are allowed to use. One is hiring an architect
and sending out the plans and specs and to do a prime contractor. One contractor. He would
give us a price back and have, obviously advertising for this. We pick the lowest bidder and
move on from there. There’s some inherent risk involved with doing that. Another option is
construction management services, and a lot of other cities, communities, private organizations
have gone to this model for several reasons that I’ll explain. But construction management
services, what is it? It’s basically a contract that, between the City and a construction
management service that basically the City would hire this firm to work with the architect and
put plans and specs together and go out for bid for construction services, but not just the one
prime contractor but all the sub-disciplines so basically instead of going and soliciting for one
bid for a project, the City would not solicit several contracts, or packages. Bid packages for a
particular project so. By doing this there’s several different advantages for doing this. Like I
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
said, many school districts are using this model. Currently the new Chanhassen High School is
using construction management services for the construction of the high school that will be
operational next year. Health care industry, new, the Park Nicollet facility just off of 5 here in
Chanhassen was utilized construction management services for that facility. Retail companies,
sports and recreation organization, facilities and also public sector like I mentioned utilize
construction management services more and more for larger infrastructure projects that need
more oversight and are more complex than say your typical road project. Here’s just a little
comparison between construction management services, which is in the blue here and the red is
your typical prime contractor. So here it’s just showing you that there’s multiple trade contracts
that the City would need to solicit out. We would work with the architect and engineer as a
partner to put these packages together and solicit for these services. As opposed to the owner
and the architect working together. Soliciting to one general contractor which in turn goes out
and gets quotes from sub-contractors and everything is funneled through the general contractor.
So benefits of construction management, there are several that we can identify. Basically the
construction management services would be involved with the architectural design for cost
saving ideas through design phases. Through the design phase. Basically we’re utilizing
construction contractors basically and ideas on how to save on costs for a particular project.
Continuing continuity of the construction management through all the services, or all the phases
of the project. Basically from pre-design all the way through construction completion. They’re
our advocate and work hand in hand with the city and the architect. Interest of the architect and
the construction manager are basically the same as the owners since we’re working as a team
now instead of having the prime contractor separated from the city and the architect. There’s
more of an interactive team approach, basically check and balances. We’re going to be utilizing
the construction manager to give us some quality assurances throughout the design. Checking
the architectural, the architect’s work. Also like I said again, cost saving measures that
potentially we’ll be utilizing and also keeping the project on task and on schedule. And then
superintendent that we would work as our eyes and ears out on the project would be again the
advocate of the City as opposed to prime contractor where the contractor would hire a
superintendent that would look out for both the City’s and the contractor’s interest. So more of
an oversight, more better eyes and ears I would say for the City. There are potential some cost
savings that would be, could be realized. You know no hidden costs. Everything’s open book.
Instead of just getting that one bid again from one prime contractor, we would know basically
everything that’s involved and all the costs associated with putting this building together. Again
we’ve solicited numerous bid packages, you know a minimum of probably 25 bid packages that
would be sent out, instead of just that one low bid again. So that gives us some opportunity just
not to bid out the project on one particular day if we think there’s an opportunity to get better
prices a month down the road or earlier, you know we would utilize that approach. And then
multiple contract approach eliminates overhead profit, potential mark-up’s from the
subcontractor to the prime contractor. That’s typically how the prime contractor makes a portion
of his monies by those mark-up’s from subcontractors to the prime. And by utilizing
construction managers, you eliminate that overhead and then that mark-up. And then by bidding
out several packages, you know there potentially is more opportunity for local contractors to get
involved. Instead of talking to one prime contractor that he has his favorite subcontractors that
he likes to use, you know this is more open book so everybody would have potentially an
opportunity to bid on a particular item or section of the project. So the City did receive 5
proposals a few weeks back and did have a staff selection team put together to review those
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
proposals. We did interview 3 firms and based upon you know our qualifications of what we
think we need for our construction manager for this project, we would recommend that RJM
Construction we awarded this contract. Based upon their proposal, they were the best. We feel
that they put together the best proposal. They put together a very qualified team of individuals.
Lots of years of experience. They were very competitively priced as well compared to the other
proposals that were submitted and they did have very good references that we found. So just a
couple examples of RJM’s recent projects. They did successfully complete the Eden Prairie
Community Center that was recently built. They also worked on the Plymouth, the city ice
arena, and another recent project was St. Michael’s public works facility and fire station. And
then also the Chaska Community Center too a few years ago that they also worked on. So staff
did check references and numerous cities. We also checked with Park Nicollet on their, on the
Park Nicollet clinic that was built here in Chanhassen and everybody had good references for
RJM. So with that if you have any questions I’d be more than happy to try to answer them for
you. I think we do have a representative here from RJM if you have questions for them as well.
I think Brian Recker is here tonight.
Mayor Furlong: Great. Any questions for staff before we invite Mr. Recker.
Councilwoman Ernst: I have some.
Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Ernst.
Councilwoman Ernst: Can you tell me Paul the criteria that was selected for interviewing the 3
firms versus 5.
Paul Oehme: Well yeah, we did have some preliminary references from all 5 firms. We did,
before we started interviewing we did talk to some of the references that they gave us and some
references that we knew. We also looked at cost was a major factor in who we interviewed so
we did try to limit the interviews to who we thought would basically give us the best bang for the
buck.
Councilwoman Ernst: So did you interview the other 2 construction groups that were lower than
RJM?
Paul Oehme: We interviewed CDS.
Councilwoman Ernst: Yep, they were one.
Paul Oehme: Yeah, they were the lowest proposal. We did interview them and they did remove
their proposal. I think I included the letter of withdrawal from CDS in the packet for reasons
stated, so they did.
Councilwoman Ernst: And Stahl?
Paul Oehme: And Stahl we did an interview too. We interviewed Stahl. So.
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
Councilwoman Ernst: And what were the drawbacks with Stahl? Curious. I mean if you could
summarize.
Paul Oehme: Yeah. I mean again, they did have a good proposal we thought. You know they
did have, I think we talked to Lakeville and a couple other communities too and they, you know
they seemed fine but based upon the team I think that RJM put together, very qualified. Based
upon their references I think that we received. You know glowing references from most of these
communities and Park Nicollet in specific. You know we just felt based upon that information
that this would be a good fit for us to go with RJM.
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council members. I saw in on a couple of the interviews and you know
when you’re getting down to the point of selecting a construction manager, it really got to the
point where it was somebody Paul and his staff could feel comfortable with in working with for
the next year and a half. And we also had the architect sit in on at least one of the interviews too
and weighed heavily on you know who the architect could work with, because it’s going to be a
team project here. And RJM I think used team every other word when they made their
presentation to us, and we thought that was key because you know everybody’s going to have a
say of kind of how this building’s going to be laid out and designed and how it’s going to
operate, and I think that was the real key where it got down to RJM and if we liked the team and
somebody we could work with. You know price wasn’t that big a difference when you started
looking at them. Stahl did a great job in their interview. You know CDS, they helped us in the
beginning to do some cost estimating on the existing facilities but that’s kind of their expertise.
They just didn’t want to go through the entire process. It was a little bit more than they could
bite off at this time. So it really got down to a team effort and we thought we could work with.
Councilwoman Ernst: There was, there were a couple statements in here for potential
disadvantages and I have a question about a couple of these. One of them says that it can add
additional risk and liability to the city. What could that potentially be?
Paul Oehme: Well, in general I mean there’s multiple contracts that are going to have to be let
again with this project so there is a lot more paperwork that we will definitely see. There’s more
staff time involved with this type of approach we feel. In terms of you know liability, I guess I’d
refer that back to the city attorney but you know from our perspective there, you know we’re
trying to get the best bang for our buck here again and the liability I think, you know the city
manager or the city attorney probably could answer if there’s any.
Roger Knutson: If you had a construction project, which won’t happen here, but if something
really bad goes, happens.
Councilman Litsey: You heard it here.
Mayor Furlong: That will be on the recorded minutes.
Roger Knutson: With a general contractor you really are pointing your finger at one person.
With the construction manager, there are a number of potential, depending on the situation, a
number of potential candidates to whom the finger may be pointed and when the finger is
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
pointed at them, they point it at someone else. That’s more potential than reality because in
reality when you have a general contractor, the general contractor points the fingers at the subs
and even though we do not directly have a contract with the subs, if you really get into it, then
the subs are all brought in as defendants in a lawsuit or plaintiffs in a lawsuit and it isn’t much
different.
Councilwoman Ernst: So what does this mean? Does this mean then that the finger comes back
to us?
Roger Knutson: Never.
Councilwoman Ernst: That’s kind of what I’m hearing.
Roger Knutson: No. No, in, it’s who do you point the finger at when something goes wrong.
General contractor, it’s straight. It’s the general contractor. It doesn’t matter whether the sub
screwed up and made a mistake because your contract is with the general. If you have a bunch
of subcontractors, you have, potentially if you point your finger at one subcontractor, they’ll say
no. It’s someone else’s fault. It’s this person’s fault and so on, so if you really get into the
litigation of it, the fact of the matter it doesn’t matter because we’re all there together anyway.
Councilwoman Ernst: So it’s pretty minimal then.
Roger Knutson: Yes.
Councilwoman Ernst: Okay. What about change orders? Are change orders not involved in
this? Are we eliminating change orders, the risk for change orders?
Paul Oehme: Yeah, there’s always risk for change orders. You know no set of plans are perfect.
If there’s something that staff didn’t see in the design that potentially we think would be a good
idea to add into the building during construction, you know we might ask the council for
consideration for those type of changes. But the construction manager would be responsible for
the oversight and reviewing requested change orders by the subcontractor. So you know it never
eliminates the potential for change orders but I think by using a construction manager it helps
reduce the chances for large change orders or unforeseen change orders.
Councilwoman Ernst: But each one would come back to council for additional cause.
Paul Oehme: Absolutely. Yeah, if there’s an outstanding change order that we think is
warranted, definitely that has to go back to council.
Councilwoman Ernst: Okay, thank you.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Councilman Litsey, you had something?
Councilman Litsey: Yeah, I just had a couple. I was just curious why, you know 4 of them are
pretty close in cost. Why we just didn’t go ahead and interview all 4. Was, I know you did some
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
initial screening. I was just a little concerned I guess that we didn’t interview the fourth there. Is
it Bossart? Was there something that really stuck out with them?
Paul Oehme: Well again, just based upon some reference checks up front that we did, we just
felt that you know limiting it, limiting it to the firms that we think were qualified up front, you
know those are the ones that we interviewed and we thought that would be best suited for this
project.
Councilman Litsey: Was there any thought when CDS pulled out, to go back and interview
Bossart?
Paul Oehme: No.
Todd Gerhardt: CDS pulled out last Wednesday.
Councilman Litsey: Oh, okay. That creates a little bit of a time bind then.
Paul Oehme: Yeah, I don’t know. I think we’re comfortable with the decision that we made.
Going back and interviewing Bossart, I don’t, based upon the information that we know, I don’t
know if our recommendation would be any different than it is today.
Councilman Litsey: I mean ultimately it was down to what, I mean they’re a reputable firm.
They can do the project and that staff feels comfortable working with them so if those criteria’s
are satisfied at the staff level, then I’m fine supporting it. I was just I guess curious why.
Paul Oehme: Sure.
Councilman Litsey: That’s it.
Mayor Furlong: Any other questions at this time? Councilwoman Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: One quick question. When I look at the page 4 of the staff report and
it’s got everyone’s name down and their cost for services. Why is there such a huge gap in the
general condition cost and on-site reimbursable expenses? It seems like everyone’s just all over
the board with that criteria.
Paul Oehme: Yeah, we had the same question too and maybe RJM representative can address
that a little better than I can, but it’s where the firm basically wants to stick their money in, what
they feel, you know or how they approach, however they approach the project. You know the
reimbursables and the general conditions are you know somewhat similar. Somewhat separated
out from you know the construction management and the field service operations. You know
the, when we looked at the cost for the general conditions, you know we felt comfortable moving
ahead with the dollar amounts that RJM put forward based upon our initial review of what those
costs should be so looking at some of the other firms, you know again in general condition, it just
seemed that they came, or over inflated some of those numbers more than what we thought it
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should be. And again, it comes down to where these companies stick their money I think and
how they structure their proposal so.
Mayor Furlong: Maybe as a follow up question that the general condition costs and on-site
reimbursable expenses, the numbers here, were those presented in a not to exceed manner or
were they presented as incurred?
Paul Oehme: Those are going to be invoiced as build on an actual incurring cost so there’s no
mark-up involved with those.
Mayor Furlong: So I guess what I’m hearing then is what one firm may consider part of their
management fees, as an expense, another firm may consider that a reimbursable expense.
Paul Oehme: Correct. Right. And some of these numbers too, the general conditions, you know
some of those might be included in a contract or included the advance services, the pre-design
services or stuck in their fees for service management services, so it’s how the, it’s how the firm
broke out their project and where they wanted to stick their dollars so.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. And then from a risk standpoint, the question is if some of those firms
that estimated lower reimbursable expenses would end up being near where some of the other
firms with higher estimated reimbursable expenses. Is that a concern?
Paul Oehme: I don’t know. Based on our initial review of what the reimbursables are, I think
the dollars that RJM has proposed are realistic or, for what it’s going to take.
Mayor Furlong: For those types of expenses.
Paul Oehme: Yeah, for those types of expenses.
Mayor Furlong: You’re saying these are the expenses that would be included as reimbursable.
Any other expenses would be considered part of the fees.
Paul Oehme: Correct.
Mayor Furlong: Other questions for staff. Mr. McDonald.
Councilman McDonald: I had some questions. Construction management. Is this the same type
of a plan that MnDot used for 212 and the 35W bridge?
Paul Oehme: Nope. They actually hired the contractor prior to the final design of the bridge or
212. That was more a design build I think is the way they categorize that. It’s basically
soliciting and they pre-qualify their contractors for those type of, for those type of projects so.
The contractor actually hires the engineering firm to design their portion of the project so the
contractor in that situation is actually doing a lot of the design before and during the construction
process.
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Councilman McDonald: Okay, the reason I ask was that with both those contracts there was
evidently a big savings that were incurred because there were certain incentives. Is there
anything such as that in this contract where there could be incentives for finishing earlier and it
ends up costing us less?
Paul Oehme: No, typically for these type of projects, and maybe somebody from RJM can
comment on that though too but I, typically for these type of projects, where, especially for this
project where it’s not as time sensitive as say the 35W bridge, we don’t have incentives for
completing the project early. Those type of things so.
Councilman McDonald: Okay. And then the last is kind of a follow-up to what the mayor was
asking, and I’m not sure I heard the answer. The general conditions, is that a, it will not exceed
that price, and I take it that the general conditions cost is a variable or is that a fixed cost that
they’ve agreed to, I wasn’t sure I heard an answer to that as to what those costs are.
Paul Oehme: Well the general conditions are mainly you know the garbage dumpsters. That’s
one aspect of the general conditions. Construction trailer. Temporary utility expenses. Those
type of things are included in the general conditions so for example the construction trailer, you
know all of the firms are kind of all over the board in terms of what they would charge the city
for that use. That’s just a fixed fee. You know garbage dumpsters. You know everybody
estimated how much, how many dumpsters we would need for this particular project. And again
utility. Temporary utility expenses. Those type of things you know based upon a 10 month
construction period. We just felt comfortable with the actual cost that RJM was proposing.
Councilman McDonald: Okay, the point about the dumpsters. They bid a certain amount of
dumpsters that they believe it’s going to take. What happens if it takes more? Is that a cost that
we’re going to incur for the extra ones so that portion could actually go up or is that fixed? If
you miscalculated you just miscalculated.
Brian Recker: Sure. If I could address the council.
Mayor Furlong: Please.
Brian Recker: Mr. Mayor, members of the council. Thank you for letting me speak tonight. If I
could try to answer your question in regards to the general condition. Well first of all I should
introduce myself. I’m sorry. I’m Brian Recker, and I’m a Vice President with RJM
Construction and the proposed project principle for the project here. The new public works
facility, and most of those projects that were actually up on the screen, they actually are my jobs
that I’ve done over time with various councils. In regards to general conditions cost, a lot of
questions have been asked as to what’s in the first line item. What’s in the second line item.
How do the contractor’s look at that? If you kind of look across the three at the bottom, you’ll
notice that most of them are within about a percent of each other. Those costs as far as the on
site costs and the general condition cost to run a project all, to basically kind of what section you
put them in. At the end of the day they’re all essentially about the same. And what these
comprise are, the construction manager will bid out all of the bricks and sticks is what we call
them on the project. All the materials that go into completing that project are bid through the
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various bid categories that we’ll be bidding out to all the various contractors. The cost that we
have here, since we call it soft costs, just miscellaneous costs that we have to support those
contractors and on site supervision. The proposal that we had put together is a not to exceed
proposal so that it is a guaranteed max in regards to the general conditions and the fee that we
have on the job. If there are any savings that we’ll experience throughout the project, if we have
less dumpsters. If we have less temporary utilities that we, than we initially anticipated, 100% of
those savings comes back to the City of Chanhassen through a deductive change order to our
contract for that at the end of the project. And throughout the course of that project the actual
invoice cost for all the various components of those general conditions and reimbursables are
submitted with our invoice so that there’s a hard copy to substantiate what we’re billing for that.
There’ll be certain areas where, within the general conditions we’ll have maybe like a temporary
fence and we’ll have a temporary trailer and we’ll have some dumpsters. We may find that that
fencing is 10% less than what we thought it would be, and the dumpsters may be 5% more than
what we thought it would be. The collective group of the costs that we have, I recall as the
reimbursables, the total amount is a guaranteed max not to exceed, so all savings would come
back to the City.
Mayor Furlong: And just as, I’m sorry, did you have a follow-up question?
Councilman McDonald: No.
Mayor Furlong: Is the not to exceed also applied to the construction management and
professional fees portion of the contract as well?
Brian Recker: That’s correct.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Yet there’s still the, is the contract also ensure completion within those
fees?
Brian Recker: Ensure completion?
Mayor Furlong: Right.
Brian Recker: It is our job to get the job done on time.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Brian Recker: And to ensure completion is all within those fees as well. And we have never not
gotten a job done on time so.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Good. We have just a couple more questions I think for Mr. Oehme and
then, but Mr. Recker I would like to have you stay close because I’d like to hear more about your
firm and there may be some other questions as well. Any other questions for staff?
Councilwoman Ernst: I have one.
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Mayor Furlong: Councilwoman Ernst.
Councilwoman Ernst: Paul can you tell me, did you work with a consultant in putting the RFP
together?
Paul Oehme: No.
Councilwoman Ernst: So did we know exactly what our specifications were when we put this
RFP out to the 5 firms?
Paul Oehme: Yes. I mean the RFP that was included in your packet, staff put that together.
Sent that out to several firms and solicited, firms sent us back their proposal based upon the
information that was sent out to those firms. So what we did, we looked at what our needs for
the, of the project were. We talked to other cities, Eden Prairie specifically and actually got
some verbiage from them that we liked and stuck in here so I think there’s a couple other cities
too. Plymouth was another one we talked to and some other ones, so we talked to a lot of other
cities and gathered the information. Took out what we liked and stuck it into our’s.
Councilwoman Ernst: I was just curious because this is something really new to us so, as far as I
know we had never done it.
Paul Oehme: Yeah, I kind of rely on friends in the industry.
Councilwoman Ernst: Well that’s good. I’m glad you have friends in the industry so. Okay.
Thank you.
Mayor Furlong: Mr. Oehme one question. With regard to the multiple contracts, do you
anticipate any problem with the ability of the council to approve the contracts in a timely manner
given our bi-monthly meeting schedule throughout the year.
Paul Oehme: No, I think so not. I don’t think it would be a problem there. Working with again
RJM and Brian Recker, we are definitely, we’re going to pin point exactly when these things are
going to be let out and dial those dates into, back them into awards for at council meetings, so I
don’t see a problem there at all. There’s going to be a big package we think up front. You know
there’s probably 5 or 6, 10 award of contracts maybe at one council meetings and several after,
down the road sometime so we’re going to package these things in terms of where they make the
most sense. Where we can get the best bang for our buck and take them to council and get your
recommendations and approval hopefully.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Any other questions for staff at this time? Okay. Mr.
Recker, be happy to invite you back. Maybe you can give us a little more background on your
firm and your projects that you’ve worked on and this project in particular and how you view it.
Brian Recker: Sure. Absolutely, thank you again for the opportunity to speak. Our firm, RJM
Construction, we’re based out of Plymouth. Right along 169. We’ve been in business since
1981. We actually have a few different markets that we participate in. One of our strongest
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
markets is the construction management market where we actually work for communities such as
yourself and Eden Prairie and Andover. Several that Paul had mentioned earlier. We also
concentrate in health care, which is an example with the Park Nicollet clinic that we built right
down the street here a few years ago. And then we do a lot of downtown corporate remodels as
well, and those are our 3 main markets that we work in. Construction management market for us
is again it’s been our strongest market here in the last few years, just with the opportunities that
they’ve been here. Around this area. Again my name is Brian Recker. I’m a Vice President
with RJM and have been with RJM here for 6 years now and most of my experience with RJM
has been with the construction management market. So I’ve done projects for the City of
Andover, the City of Elk River, the City of Chaska, the City of Eden Prairie. These are all
projects that I’ve done myself. Some of your neighboring communities here as well. And we’ve
had very good luck with this particular delivery method for the cities. It has provided them with
a lot of control on their projects in regards to being able to have direct contracts with all the
individual contractors. The council spoke a little earlier tonight in regards to risk associated with
contracts and having multiple contracts. What helps the city in regards to financial risk is when
you receive a bid for the work that we’re going to be letting out in a public market, you will
receive a payment performance bond from that contractor which is a guarantee that they’ll
complete the project. Or if they’re not able to, that their performance of payment bond company
will step in and complete the job for them. So you do have that financial control on them. You
also have more direct control with the contractors as an example with the general contracting
example that was given, that the, in situations where there’s a concern with an individual
contractor, as a general contractor you don’t have direct access to that contractor to be able to
work with them and find a way to make sure they get back to where they need to get to. In this
delivery method we’ve found that it provides a lot of control to be able to work directly with that
contractor without that intermediary between the owner and those contractors that may not be
performing the way they need to. So the cities have found that they’ve really enjoyed that
delivery method because of the ability to be able to be done on time and keep control of the
budget and be able to, and do what they need to to stay within that budget as well, and so we’ve
had a lot of repeat business with the cities that we’ve worked with. With the City of Chaska.
I’ve done 4 projects for them now in the last few years and up in Maple Grove. We’re on our
fourth contract with them here in the last couple years as well, so it’s been with it that they’ve
really enjoyed working with.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Recker? Does your firm, does RJM, do you
also provide general contracting services for projects?
Brian Recker: We do.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Brian Recker: We do. Actually a lot of our health care market is primarily a general contracting
type of delivery method, although we’ve actually exercised both and with our downtown
corporate remodeling, our TI work we call it. Tenant improvement work, we operate mostly as
general contractors in that market as well, and actually we find that that provides us with a lot of
valuable information so that when we’re assisting during the pre-construction period with the
city, with the project, is we have a lot of real, real time information in regards to the market
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
trends and to historical costs and also just the know how on how to put projects together. And
having superintendents that we have on the job site, that have that real actual experience in
actually constructing the projects themselves as well. Almost all of our superintendents are card
carrying union carpenters that over the years have worked their way up through the trade so very
familiar with projects and how those projects go together. That helps us be able to keep things
on pace but actually also helps in the quality control on the project, knowing over, throughout
their history on how things are supposed to go together. And then also helping them problem
solve their own problems that they have out there as well so.
Mayor Furlong: One of the benefits, as I understand with the constructor manager process
versus a general contracting process, not only the benefits that we talk about here tonight but also
some financial benefit potentially as well. That the total cost of the project would be less under
this type of construction manager process than if we went with the general contractor. Has that
been your firm’s experience within health care industry or within other industries that there is
some real dollar savings that the cities enjoy by using this process?
Brian Recker: There is, and how I best explain that. When you have a general contractor that is
providing you a bid through a competitive bid market, they are soliciting bids themselves and
putting on a fee and then they put, give the proposal to the city. Essentially as a construction
manager we do something very similar, that we have a fee, percentage that is similar to what you
have in the competitive market. So the bids that you receive from the individual contractors and
then the fee on top of it, the costs are relatively the same. Where you really I feel find the most
money saved and value added is at the beginning of the process basically throughout, from now
until the time that the project actually goes to bid. The city’s going to have a budget that you’re
going to want to make sure that you, or that we hit for when we do this project, and throughout
that pre-construction period there’ll be a lot of evaluation on different systems and cost savings
opportunities that we can propose through that pre-construction period that will be able to save
that project money and give it that guidance up until the point where we actually do receive those
bids. So we find a lot of value within, in with that and we found a lot of cost savings
opportunities with that and it gives a lot of flexibility to the city throughout that process to have
options and to be able to select what’s the best one for the project. We also find that through the
construction period, because a construction manager can be so in tuned with the project and
understand the components of that project because of being involved throughout that entire
design, that when the project actually does go to bid, the construction manager has the ability to
help make sure that all the bases are covered so that the opportunities for change orders is less
because the work has been done ahead of time to make sure that the packages are properly
covering those as well.
Mayor Furlong: Good. In terms of this project here, and the amount of time you’ve had to take
a look. I assume you’ve looked at what has been put together so far. Do you have any concerns
about any of the estimates that the city’s looked at in terms of the project itself or the cost
associated with the project?
Brian Recker: We don’t. We don’t have any concerns in regards to the overall general budget.
We feel it’s a good budget for the type of facility and the size of facility that we have. One of
the first things that we’ll ask to do if we’re selected as a construction manager, is to sit down
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
with the designer and the city and to work to put together that conceptual plan of what it is what
we’re looking at, and quite quickly do an evaluation on the budget to find, to make sure that
we’re going the right direction. Or if not, to be able to talk about that and come up with some
very quick options so the city doesn’t spend a lot of time going one direction where we may have
to turn the corner just a little bit to make sure we stay within the budget. But as far as the overall
budget, I don’t foresee a problem.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Any other questions? At this point. No? Very good, thank
you.
Brian Recker: Thank you.
Mayor Furlong: Appreciate you being here this evening. Any follow-up questions for staff?
On any of this. If not, thoughts. Comments. In terms of the recommendation before us this
evening.
Councilman McDonald: Well I guess I’m glad to see that we did kind of think outside the box a
little bit as far as how we’re going to get this built and try to come up with a way to I think get a
quality product at a good price. It looks as though there’s enough control that as we go through
the process we should know quite early on if there’s any problems so I appreciate that and it
looks as though it will end up being a good project when it’s all done.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Mr. Litsey your thoughts.
Councilman Litsey: I’m comfortable with what’s being proposed. I’ve had some experience
with this delivery method so I perhaps have a better comfort level than some may have, having
gone through it on a project. I’m comfortable with the way the selection process went in terms
of this firm being selected and looking forward to moving forward with the project. It’s much
needed and I think we’ve done a good job in work sessions talking through some of the issues
that we’ve had perhaps with looking at the general contractor versus construction manager
approach, and this seems to be the best way to go so I’m comfortable moving forward.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Councilwoman Tjornhom.
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Yeah, I think it was a good discussion tonight. I learned a little bit
more about the process I guess and what’s involved and the benefits there are to the city by going
ahead with this proposal. I think staff obviously had their ducks in a row when they were
accepting bids and interviewing people and they checked references and heard positive things
about our company we selected so I’m comfortable moving ahead with RJM. RJM and I’m
looking forward to seeing what happens next with the bid process and everything involved with
constructing this.
Mayor Furlong: Very good. Thank you. Councilwoman Ernst. Any thoughts?
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
Councilwoman Ernst: Ah no. I had some questions even after I read the packet and I thank you
for taking the time to both of you for answering those questions tonight and I feel comfortable
with what’s been presented to us.
Mayor Furlong: Very good. Well thank you and I’ll reiterate appreciation for the time and effort
that’s been put in place so far for staff and also for Mr. Recker and his firm, and as well as the
other firms that put in proposals. We appreciate their willingness and desire to work with us as
well. I think we have a good proposal in front of us and a firm that should be able to deliver on
what we’re looking for, which is good quality project. On time and on budget. Or below budget
is fine too. And you know this is a project that is going to benefit the city for many, many years.
We’re building a public works building that is being sized to support our building, or our city
after we’re fully developed. Not just our needs for the next 10 years but really for our needs as
far as we can see and we’re doing it today and trying to do it as cost effectively and as efficiently
as possible. And so to all involved, thank you in advance for all your hard work. There’s going
to be a lot of time and effort going forward on this but please note that that time and effort is
appreciated by all concerned. Any other comments? If not, is there a motion to move forward?
Councilman Litsey: I’ll be happy to make the motion. The City Council directs staff to enter
into a contract for construction management services with RJM Construction in the amount of
$442,600.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there a second?
Councilwoman Tjornhom: Second.
Councilman McDonald: I’ll second. Go ahead.
Mayor Furlong: We’ll give it to Councilwoman Tjornhom. Any discussion on the motion?
Councilman Litsey moved, Councilwoman Tjornhom seconded that the City Council
directs staff to enter into a contract for construction management services with RJM
Construction in the amount of $442,600. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
Councilwoman Ernst: Actually I just wanted to recognize Todd and Greg for their efforts in
thth
receiving the 18, I believe in the 18 consecutive year. The award for Financial Recording
Excellence and so congratulations to you and your staff for doing such a fine job on that. And as
I understand there’s only 5 to 10% of the cities that receive that award in the nation.
Todd Gerhardt: Right.
Councilwoman Ernst: So congratulations.
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
Mayor Furlong: Good thank you. Just a quick comment. We had, yesterday we had the, the fire
department had their open house, and I know that we’ll get an update from Chief Geske at our
next meeting on that, but appreciate everybody that was involved in that. That takes a lot of
effort and time. I know for our fire department during the entire Fire Prevention Week, which
was last week, meeting with students and such and so I just want to make sure that we’re on
record appreciating that effort and our fire fighters efforts for all that they do. Also just as an
aside. I had the opportunity to be out at the Arboretum today. Took the 3 mile drive and if
anybody has a chance to get out there, the trees are in full peak color. It is gorgeous and it is,
even though it was a gray, rainy day today, get out there this week. I know we have MEA
coming up and if any families are in town, they still have their exhibits up for the summer. Some
of the tree exhibits and it’s just beautiful. The roses appear to be in full bloom here in the fall
now so I would encourage anybody to get out to the Arboretum if they have the opportunity here
in the next couple weeks and really enjoy the unique opportunity that we have here in
Chanhassen.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
Todd Gerhardt: My updates are on roads again. We’re moving right along. Laredo, all the
utility work has been completed so everybody’s hooked up to new sewer and water. Curb and
gutter was completed last week. We’re hoping with drier weather this week that we can get the
final lift down throughout the entire segment of Laredo. We still have that middle section and a
couple of cul-de-sacs yet that are still in dirt position and we’d like to get that first layer down
yet this week, and is the goal as long as everything dries out. So that project’s moved along.
The sidewalks are completed and we’ll do some back filling on the curb, but project’s moving
along. Probably meet our deadline here which is middle of October.
Mayor Furlong: Isn’t that Wednesday? End of October.
Councilman Litsey: I was just curious on that project, is that path going down by the pond. Is
that going to be completed yet this year too?
Paul Oehme: Yep that, we anticipate paving that trail yet this year. The restoration is going to
be next year in terms of those mini-ponds and the trees and shrubs that will be planted, but the
trail is anticipated and that section will be opened yet this fall.
Mayor Furlong: Just a quick follow-up. I assume we’re going to maintain any erosion control
during the winter months so that we don’t have problems in the spring along the trail there.
Paul Oehme: Oh yeah. Yep, absolutely. There will still be that silt fence there and it’s going to
be mulched in yet too. All that area.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thanks.
Councilman Litsey: Looks nice.
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
Todd Gerhardt: Yep. So, and the other construction project that we’ve been monitoring is the
Lyman update by the new high school. You can now take that segment of Lyman to get to
Audubon south of Lyman, so that is now open and I think a lot of people have been using Powers
Boulevard down to Pioneer but now they can use Lyman to Audubon, so that segment’s open.
Mayor Furlong: Are they anticipating opening up any of the segment in front of the new high
school during the winter months?
Paul Oehme: Yeah, we anticipate opening basically from Audubon going south to Galpin yet
this year so last time I talked to the county, I think it was you know early November. Probably
mid-November now with all the rain we had that they’ll be opening that up, but that’s in the
contract they have that section opened up from Audubon to Galpin this year.
Mayor Furlong: From Audubon to Galpin. Okay. And then will that stay open or will that be
closed again next spring?
Paul Oehme: No, it will have to be closed again. The intersection of Audubon and Lyman, the
signal, that’s all going to have to be upgraded and the grades are going to have to change and
also the segment between, was it Lake Hazeltine Drive and Audubon, that still has to get
reconstructed there so that has to be done without traffic. It has to be completely shut down so
that’ll be next year but it’ll be a lot shorter closure than it was this year so.
Mayor Furlong: Do they have any issue or concerns about being able to complete…the entire
project on time?
Paul Oehme: None that I’ve heard of.
Mayor Furlong: And what is that completion date, do you know?
Paul Oehme: Well I think it’s August of next year.
Mayor Furlong: August. So before the high school.
Paul Oehme: Before the high school opens, yes.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Okay.
Todd Gerhardt: That’s all I have.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any other questions for Mr. Gerhardt or his staff? No? Okay. We
do appreciate a number of the guests staying here and I think I see some potential high school
students. I would encourage you to sign in to the pad over there to make sure that your
attendance here is recorded in the minutes. And certainly if anybody has any questions after the
meeting, they’d like to come up and address anybody on the council, you’re free to do that as
well.
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City Council Meeting - October 13, 2008
CORRESPONDENCE DISCUSSION.
Mayor Furlong: Is there any discussion on the correspondence packet this evening? It was quite
lengthy because of 2 weeks between but I think it all seemed pretty straight forward. Received
some good letters and correspondence there.
Councilman Litsey: Yeah I was just going to mention the one we got from Police Chief Rob
Reynolds that came through the police department. The assistance provided by Carver County
and some of the Chan deputies with the, during the RNC. There was a protest on site over at
Eden Prairie that they helped with so it was nice to receive some recognition for the assistance
there. That’s it.
Mayor Furlong: Good. Thank you. Is there anything else to come before the council this
evening? If not, we will continue our work session, complete the work session items
immediately following the meeting. Is there a motion to adjourn?
Councilwoman Ernst moved, Councilwoman Tjornhom seconded to adjourn the meeting.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. The City
Council meeting was adjourned at 8:35 p.m.
Submitted by Todd Gerhardt
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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