1d-1. City Code Amendment re: Animals
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
7700 Market Boulevard
PO Box 147
Chanhassen, MN 55317
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Web Site
www.ci.chanhassen.mn.us
.ict-1-
MEMORANDUM
TO:
Todd Gerhardt, City Manager
FROM:
Sharmeen AI-Jaff, Senior Planner
DATE:
June 22, 2009
SUBJ:
I
City Code Amendments to Chapters 1 and 20, Regulating Animals rt<.f1\
PROPOSED MOTION:
"Staff recommends that City Council adopt the proposed amendments to
Chapters 1 and 20 of the Chanhassen City Code as outlined in the staff report."
BACKGROUND
On April 7, 2009, staff presented an issue paper to the Planning Commission
addressing farm animals. The Planning Commission directed staff to conduct
additional research targeting ducks, chicken, and bees in non-agricultural districts.
On April, 21, 2009, staff presented the findings to the Commission which were
subsequently presented to the City Council at their May 26, 2009 work session
(see attachment 1). The following is a summary of the findings:
. Limit farm animals to agricultural districts
. Clarify definitions
. Prohibit wild animals and birds of prey from being kept in the city
. Delete any reference to the A-I District in the city code
Staff drafted an ordinance that addresses these issues. Amendments are proposed
to both Chapters 1 (which requires City Council action only) and 20. The intent
of these amendments is to clarify definitions of the different types of animals and
the districts that permit them.
PLANNING COMMISSION ACTION
On June 16,2009, the Planning Commission reviewed and voted 3-2 to
recommend approval of the ordinance amendments.
The Planning Commission discussed the type of community we are. The City of
Chanhassen is a suburban community in which farm animals raised for
consumption rather than a pet should be located on farm property.
Chanhassen is a Community for Life - Providing for Today and Planning for Tomorrow
Todd Gerhardt, City Manager
June 22, 2009
Page 2 of 4
The Planning Commission requested clarification regarding the definition of birds of prey as the
species are not listed. The Department of Natural Recourses (DNR) provides standards for birds
of prey in State Statute 6238.0100 in which the staff will reference.
In addition, the Planning Commission requested clarification of the definition of farm animal. In
situations where further clarification is required, staff will refer to the Minnesota Department of
Agriculture.
A resident of Chanhassen spoke during the public hearing requesting to keep chickens on a
residentially zoned property to maintain a sustainable lifestyle and consume the eggs of the
chickens. The Planning Commission came to the conclusion that when the byproducts of the
animal are consumed the animal is no longer a pet.
PROPOSED ORDINANCE AMENDMENTS (All new language is in bold, and deletions have
been struck through.)
Chapter 1 - Definitions:
Expand the definition of House Pets as follows:
House Pets, as a dog or cat, rcgardlcss o/wcight, or an animal1'let excceding 40 pounds in
,','cight that is usually and customarily considered a pct. means animals such as dogs, cats,
birds (not including pigeons, chickens, geese, turkeys or other domestic fowl), gerbils,
hamsters, rabbits (including those normally sheltered outside of the principal
structure), and tropical fish, that can be contained within a principal structure
throughout the entire year, provided that the containment can be accomplished without
special modification to the structure that would require a building permit, excluding
wild or domesticated wild animals.
The city code references but does not define farm animals. Staff recommends the following
definition:
Farm Animals means cattle, hogs, bees, sheep, goats, chickens, turkeys, horses, llama,
emu, and other animals commonly accepted as farm animals in the state of Minnesota.
The city code references but does not define wild animals. Staff recommends the following
definition:
Wild Animal means any animal that is wild, ferocious, or vicious by nature, habit,
disposition, or character. Animals in this category include but are not limited to any
ape, [including chimpanzee, gibbon, gorilla, orangutan, or siamang], baboon, bear,
bison, bobcat, cheetah, crocodile, coyote, deer, [including all members of the deer
family such as elk, antelope and moose], elephant, fox, hippopotamus, hyena, jaguar,
leopard, lion, lynx, monkey, puma [also known as cougar], mountain lion or panther,
Todd Gerhardt, City Manager
June 22, 2009
Page 3 of 4
rhinoceros, any snake which is poisonous or any constrictor snake, snow leopard, tiger,
wolf, or hybrid mix of any of the wild animals such as wolf/dog mixes.
The city code does not define birds of prey. Staff recommends the following definition:
Birds of prey means birds that hunt for food primarily on the wing, using their keen
senses, especially vision. Their talons and beaks tend to be relatively large, powerful
and adapted for tearing and/or piercing flesh.
The city code references but does not define farm. Staff recommends the following definition:
Farm means a tract of land of more than ten (10) acres in size, usually with a house and
barn plus other buildings on which crops and often livestock are raised for a principal
source of livelihood.
Chapter 20 - Zonine::
Sec. 20-1001 of the City Code addresses the keeping of animals in the City. Subsection (2)
addresses the zoning districts in which horses are allowed. One of the districts is A-I
Agricultural Reserve. On May 24,2004, the city repealed any reference to this zoning district
since none of the properties within the city held that zoning designation. The reference to the
A-I district in this section was unintentionally left in. Staff recommends that subsection (2) be
rewritten to read as follows:
(2) Horses in the A-l, A-2, RR and RSF zoning districts in accordance with Chapter 5,
Article III.
Currently, horses are permitted on minimum 1 Yz acres. Staff recommends maintaining the stable
permit standards. This can be accomplished by amending section 20-1001 (3) as follows:
Farm animals are an allowed use on all farm property except as otherwise specifically
provided in the city code. Farm animals may not be confined in a pen, feed lot or building
within 100 feet of any residential dwelling not owned or leased by the farmer.
Sec. 20-1001(4) allows animals other than house pets and farm animals to be kept in the city
after receiving City Council approval. Staff recommends prohibiting wild animals from being
kept in the city. This can be accomplished by amending sections 20-1001 (4) and (7) as follows:
(4) i\ll.'\nimals being kept as part of the Minnesota Zoological Gffi"den's or 8t. Paul Como
Zoo's docent programs ffi"e in allowed use iFl all zoning districts. Before such animals ffi"e
allowed, however, the participant iFl the program must receive the approval of the council
regffi"ding pffi"ticipation in the program aFld identify the animal beiFlg kept. Wild animals
Todd Gerhardt, City Manager
June 22, 2009
Page 4 of 4
and birds of prey may not be kept in the city.
(7) Other animals may be allov/ed by conditional use permit.
RECOMMENDA TION
Staff recommends the City Council adopt the following motion:
"The City Council adopts the proposed amendments to Chapters 1 and 20 of the Chanhassen
City Code as outlined in the staff report."
ATTACHMENTS
1. Proposed Ordinance Amendment.
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
CARVER AND HENNEPIN COUNTIES, MINNESOTA
ORDINANCE NO.
AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CHAPTERS 1 AND 20
CHANHASSEN CITY CODE,
GENERAL PROVISIONS AND ZONING
THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA ORDAINS:
Section 1. Section 1-2. Rules of construction and definitions of the City Code, City of
Chanhassen, Minnesota, is hereby amended to read as follows:
House Pets, as El deg or CElt, r{;gElrdless o/weight, or El1'l ElnimEll1'lot exceeding 40 pounds
in ',t'eight tIwt is USUEllly Elnd custemElrily cOl1sidored El pet. means animals such as dogs,
cats, birds (not including pigeons, chickens, geese, turkeys or other domestic fowl),
gerbils, hamsters, rabbits (including those normally sheltered outside of the
principal structure), and tropical fish, that can be contained within a principal
structure throughout the entire year, provided that the containment can be
accomplished without special modification to the structure that would require a
building permit, excluding wild or domesticated wild animals.
Farm Animals means cattle, hogs, bees, sheep, goats, chickens, turkeys, horses,
llama, emu, and other animals commonly accepted as farm animals in the state of
Minnesota.
Wild Animal means any animal that is wild, ferocious, or vicious by nature, habit,
disposition, or character. Animals in this category include but are not limited to any
ape, [including chimpanzee, gibbon, gorilla, orangutan, or siamang], baboon, bear,
bison, bobcat, cheetah, crocodile, coyote, deer, [including all members of the deer
family such as elk, antelope and moose], elephant, fox, hippopotamus, hyena,
jaguar, leopard, lion, lynx, monkey, puma, also known as cougar, mountain lion or
panther, rhinoceros, any snake which is poisonous or any constrictor snake, snow
leopard, tiger, wolf, or hybrid mix of any of the wild animals such as wolf/dog mixes.
Birds of prey means birds that hunt for food primarily on the wing, using their keen
senses, especially vision. Their talons and beaks tend to be relatively large, powerful
and adapted for tearing and/or piercing flesh.
Farm means a tract of land of more than ten (10) acres in size, usually with a house
and barn plus other buildings on which crops and often livestock are raised for a
principal source of livelihood.
1
Section 2. Section 20-1001 (2), (3), (4), and (7) of the City Code, City of Chanhassen,
Minnesota, is hereby amended to read as follows:
(2) Horses in the A-l, A-2, RR and RSF zoning districts in accordance with Chapter
5, Article III.
(3) Farm animals are an allowed use on all farm property except as otherwise
specifically provided in the city code. Farm animals may not be confined in a
pen, feed lot or building within 100 feet of any residential dwelling not owned or
leased by the farmer.
(4) .'\.11 .^...nimals being kept as part of the Minnesota Zoological Garden's or St. Paul
Como Zoo's docent programs are in allo\ved use in all zoning districts. Before
such animals are allov/ed, hovlevef, the participant in the program must receive
the approval of the council regarding participation in the program and identify the
animal being kept. Wild animals may not be kept in the city.
(7) Other animals may be allowed by conditional use permit.
Section 3. This ordinance shall be effective immediately upon its passage and
publication.
PASSED AND ADOPTED this _ day of _,2009, by the City Council of the City
of Chanhassen, Minnesota
Todd Gerhardt, City Manager Thomas A. Furlong, Mayor
(Published in the Chanhassen Villager on )
2
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
JUNE 16, 2009
Chairman Papke called the meeting to order at 7 :00 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Kurt Papke, Kathleen Thomas, Mark Undestad, Denny Laufenburger,
and Dan Keefe
MEMBERS ABSENT: Debbie Larson and Kevin Dillon
STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Community Development Director; Sharmeen Al-Jaff,
Senior Planner; and Angie Kairies, Planner
PUBLIC HEARING:
ORDINANCE AMENDMENTS TO CHAPTER 20. ZONING:
A. FARM ANIMALS
B. LED LIGHTING
C. YARD REGULATIONS
D. SIGNAGE
PUBLIC PRESENT:
NAME
ADDRESS
Jennifer & Rodger Nuesse
6251 Cardinal Avenue
Sharmeen AI-Jaff presented the staff report on the zoning ordinance amendments
regarding farm animals.
Papke: Denny, start with you.
Laufenburger: I have one Sharmeen. On the definition of farm animals, I'm just reading the last
portion. And other animals commonly accepted as farm animals in the State of Minnesota. That
feels like a loose interpretation. Does the State of Minnesota have clear language about what
other animals are accepted? In other words, how would we, how would we respond to a citizen
that says well wait a second. Up in Itasca County, animals up there, that's not considered a farm
animal. Why do you consider it a farm animal here or something like that.
AI-Jaff: What we try to do, rather than, I'm sure there is an animal or there are different types of
rabbits for instance.
Laufenburger: Right.
Chanhassen Planning Commission - June 16,2009
AI-Jaff: Those can be farm animals. Rather than listing each and every different type, that's one
of the reasons why we left it open ended. Is there a, go ahead Kate.
Aanenson: No I was just going to say I believe that the State Statutes have some definition of
that. I think that you raise a good point and we should probably put that in there just for, when
this moves forward to council that they can see what, how it's defined by State Statute.
Laufenburger: Even if you're referencing something that the State of Minnesota uses as
interpretation of commonly accepted, I think that would be good. I just, it feels like it's loose.
Could be loosely interpreted.
Papke: Yeah. It almost seems like a circular definition. You're defining a farm animal as being
a farm animal.
Laufenburger: Right.
Aanenson: Agreed.
AI-Jaff: Okay.
Laufenburger: That was all I had.
Papke: Mark?
Undestad: No, no questions.
Thomas: And I don't either.
Keefe: I have questions. The first one is why now? I mean we've got, I mean we've got a, you
know I mean you've got 20,000 people living in this city. I mean you know, we've had farms
before and we didn't have a definition of farm. Why do we need to do this now? And what's the
driver behind this? I mean is there a reason for restricting now, something now that you know
was allowed before? I mean is there.
AI-Jaff: The city is continuously growing. First of all why is this before you? A question was
raised by the Planning Commission asking staff to do some research on farm animals. How
other communities deal with it. We presented our findings to the Planning Commission and the
following, after we presented our issue paper and our findings is to draft an ordinance that
addresses the issues that were raised. City code is an always evolving document and we always
need to gear it towards the demographics within our community and how best to regulate things.
Chanhassen is growing. It's no longer a small suburb. It's becoming more urban and as a result
we conducted our research and we brought the findings to you and now we are at a stage where
we are recommending the amendments to the city code. It's in the Planning Commission.
Aanenson: If I can just add to that, if I may commissioner. Again this was put on by the
Planning Commission's request as far as work item. As Sharmeen mentioned we did have it in a
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Chanhassen Planning Commission - June 16,2009
work session. And also there has been other complaints for some exotic animals and just looking
at maybe tightening up our definitions just to make sure that there wasn't, so we went through,
not only just domestic animals, farm animals because that has moved around too. Definition of
how many household pets you can have, so looking at all those related things we bundled that all
together so as Sharmeen stated, now is the time after the issue paper to kind of formalize it into
ordinance so. So we have had some complaints too.
Keefe: Yeah, I mean more now than you know you ever had or you know is there sort of a
trend?
Aanenson: I think so. And we've had some requests that have been more unusual too. That
kind of fall between, birds of prey we've never had a request for before. Falconers kind of
request. We've never had those before in a residential lot. So just to make sure we're consistent
in the standards so, often that's what drives that is a request you haven't had before.
Keefe: Second thing really relates to you know if someone, a kid wants to do some sort of 4H
type of project or something, do they then you know based upon your language here, need to
come down for a variance or approval from the City Council to be able to raise a mallard duck in
their back yard?
AI-Jaff: If they are on farm property then they would be permitted to.
Keefe: Right. But if they're in residential neighborhood, according to this they would need to
get a variance? Is that what the statute?
Aanenson: That'd be correct.
Keefe: Requires.
Aanenson: Yeah.
Keefe: Yeah, okay. I'm not real happy about that.
AI-Jaff: I know and you raise the same issue.
Keefe: Right. I mean I think it's you know, I guess one thing that I would, do you ever look into
you know from the other cities, did you look into some sort of time limit associated with some of
these things because you know for instance like a 4H project you know would be to hatch a
duckling or hatch something and then take it out to a farm after that and there'd be a time limit
around that.
AI-Jaff: City of Minneapolis permits, I believe it was two chickens. Two pets. And one of the
things that they require is that the neighboring properties sign off as they have no objection to
having these, the chickens or the ducks. Staff thought about this. We really looked at all of the
options that were before us. Often what you're going to see happen is if a neighbor moves out, a
new neighbor comes in. Staff will get the phone call saying I moved into a residential
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Chanhassen Planning Commission - June 16,2009
neighborhood and you have a chicken next door to me and I don't want them. Next door to my
house.
Aanenson: Well I think the problem is bigger than that actually and that's the fact that we don't
have a full time animal control officer and you know I'm not aware of that many people that are
raising ducklings for 4H but so, so you get 2 ducks. They don't go away. Or you have 2
chickens. They don't go away. Who's going to enforce that at that point? So it's that part of it
too. As we move through more urbanization, our lots are smaller so.
Keefe: Yeah, okay. Well and then, how does, how do nuisance laws play into you know
enforcement in terms of you know if you were to do something like this, wouldn't nuisance laws
come into play at all? Because at least I read somewhere in here that you know, if there's noise
or if somebody that complains that you know something could be done you know along those
lines.
AI-Jaff: And it is another mechanism for us to regulate animals. Noise is an issue for instance
with roosters. It could be an issue with dogs continuously barking. So yes, there are other
means for us to regulate this, but we just wanted to make sure that the language is clear as to
what is permitted and what is not.
Keefe: Right. Okay. Fair enough.
Aanenson: Mr. Chair we put each of these separately so, so what we'd ask if you open a public
hearing on this item and then make a motion.
Papke: Okay. One at a time?
Aanenson: One at a time. That's our direction.
Papke: Okay. That sounds good. I do have one question before we open it up. The public
hearing up. With the farm animals and wild animals we give tons of examples but with the birds
of prey we don't. Is there any merit, you mentioned specifically falcons. Is there any merit
including some examples of the birds of prey in the definition? Like you do with the other ones.
AI-Jaff: There is a definition for birds of prey. Birds of prey, because of the species if you will,
it's a limited number of. I can go into the encyclopedia and it will list. It will enumerate each
individual.
Papke: Okay. Unlike farm animals?
AI-Jaff: Unlike farm animals.
Aanenson: And also it's regulated by the DNR. The DNR, you have to get a DNR permit to
have a birds of prey license.
Papke: Okay, so there's no need to list examples.
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Chanhassen Planning Commission - June 16,2009
AI-J aff: Correct.
Papke: Okay. I just wanted to make sure because you know it just seemed inconsistent but
that's fine.
Aanenson: That's a good question and actually anybody that wants to get a falconers license you
also have to get a DNR permit which they have high standards for. Inside storage. Outdoor fly
areas. That sort of thing so, but that's a good point. It might be good to even just help attach it
for the City Council, those standards.
Papke: Okay. Any other questions? Okay. If there's anyone from the public who'd like to
comment on this, please step up to the podium and state your name and address for the record
and let us know what you think.
Jennifer Neusse: Thank you. My name is Jennifer Neusse. I'm a resident of Chanhassen. We
live in Cardinal Avenue area up by the Koehnen neighborhood and we've been residents of
Chanhassen for almost 20 years. My husband Rodger is here also this evening. The reason
we're here this evening is because we attended a class in the middle of May at the Gale Woods
Farm in Minnetrista where they were teaching about raising chickens in the back yard
specifically, and the reason we were interested in this is because we're adopting a more
sustainable lifestyle. We have a large garden on our residential property in Chanhassen, and we
thought it would be fun to raise chickens for pets and have eggs and we do not plan to, or intend
to have roosters or anything that would cause a public nuisance. After attending the class we
learned about all of the care that it takes to raise chickens as well as I was in 4H when I was
youngster and chickens were one of the animals that we raised on a farm in Cologne so I'm
familiar with how to care for the animals properly. The reason we want to raise chickens is for
having eggs and having them as pets. I believe that the term farm animals applies to animals that
are raised for profit, slaughter, reproduction for slaughter or those kinds of things and another
reason that we're interested in raising chickens for eggs is that we believe that the practices that
are used commercially in raising many animals that we eat or bear the opportunity to have things
like cheese and milk are unfavorable conditions and we would rather be able to produce them
ourselves or purchase from locally produced organic farms. So we've rather effectively changed
our lifestyle in order to do that and we thought this would be done other way in order to allow
that. In our research we found that the City of Chanhassen had an ordinance that states farm
animals are allowed on farm property and there was a lack of definition and I did have a chance
to speak with Sharmeen yesterday on the phone and I appreciated her time there. We believe
that these animals are not going to be farm animals for the purpose that we're raising them as
pets. We intend to have them live a long life as long as they are healthy and not slaughter and
not make chicken soup out of them. We also think that it's important to have a sustainable
lifestyle and we believe that nationwide that's becoming a more popular and acceptable form of
lifestyle so we would like to offer that it be considered that chickens should be allowed in the
municipality of Chanhassen with certain regulations. As in other cities in Minnesota. The City
of Minneapolis, the City of St. Paul, the City of Willmar, Rosemount and Duluth, just to name a
few, allow chickens on residential property with permit that's issued annually. In some cases it
eliminates, you know a certain number that you can raise. Most of them disallow roosters
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Chanhassen Planning Commission - June 16,2009
entirely because they are considered a public nuisance. And we also have a dog at home. We
keep pet fish so we are accustomed to having pets and we would not see this as being any
different from the other pets that we're raising. So along with the other municipalities that are
accepting and updating their ordinances to be more sustainable and a lifestyle that other states
are accepting now, we'd like to have this considered as an alternative to the ordinance that's
under consideration.
Papke: Thank you. I really appreciate you coming in and speaking up on this. Getting back to
Commissioner Keefe's question, it's precisely because of people like yourself that I actually
initiated this as a topic because I anticipated that with, between the economic downturn and the
interest in sustainable and eating locally, that there would be you know a surge in requests for
people to do this kind of thing. Whether it's chickens or ducks or whatever, and so rather than
having this be undefined or ill defined, I wanted to kind of take it head on and you know let's get
things out on the table and get it resolved so I really appreciate your folks coming in and
speaking up on this. This is exactly what I was anticipating happening so that's great. Any
questions for. How many chickens are you considering?
Jennifer Neusse: We're thinking 3 or 4. Less than 5 because we don't really have the room to
support more than that. Our lot is.
Rodger Neusse: You really can't keep just 1.
Jennifer Neusse: 8110 of an acre. They need to have a companion.
Rodger Neusse: And then 2 become viable but 3 is better in case 1 would die. Or if a raccoon
got it or something like that.
Papke: Right. That tends to be one of the key issues here is you know, at what point, at what
count of them do pets become.
Rodger Neusse: I think Minneapolis...
Aanenson: ... taping and it's hard for them to hear.
Papke: Oh yeah, that's true. Thanks. Appreciate.
Aanenson: If you want to just step up...
Jennifer Neusse: I have the Minneapolis ordinance right here and it states that, well it talks about
the duration.
Aanenson: Yeah, we have a copy of that.
Jennifer Neusse: Yeah. Most of the cities either give a number or based on an animal unit and
the ordinances that I looked up where it talked about animal unit, a chicken was 1/100 of an
animal unit. If that means anything in the weight of you know per acre or per square footage of
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Chanhassen Planning Commission - June 16,2009
the lot. Our lot size is about 8110 of an acre, We're not a real small property but of course we're
not 10 acres either.
Laufenburger: Is it Jennifer, is that right?
Jennifer Neusse: Yeah.
Laufenburger: You've been in Chanhassen 20 years.
Jennifer Neusse: Yes, and I've been a resident of Carver County for probably more than 35
years.
Laufenburger: Wonderful. Have you done any talking about your plans with your neighbors?
Jennifer Neusse: Not yet because there's nothing now that states that we can legally have them.
If the permit were to allow like other cities, it says 80% of the people who border your property
must allow or must agree to let you have these pets. That seems very viable to me. If even one
neighbor were to move in and they disagreed but the other 80% agreed that it was okay, then it
would be viable in my opinion. I think that's a reasonable permit guideline myself. You're
never going to have 100% of everyone that thinks it's okay. Even people don't like dogs you
know but they tolerate them.
Laufenburger: Do you have any experience that the presence of chickens draws, well your
husband mentioned raccoons. Want to talk a little bit about that?
Jennifer Neusse: Well, I know a little bit about it from living on a farm but we had a good dog
that kept the wild animals away and incidentally, we had a raccoon in our yard not more than 3
weeks ago and had to call for.
Laufenburger: Did you get a permit for that then?
Jennifer Neusse: No we didn't but we caught it in a live trap and called public officer to have
him remove it. Very unusual to see in the middle of the day. In an open shed you know. We
know there are raccoons in our neighborhood. There are also deer and wild turkey and other.
Rodger Neusse: Horses.
Jennifer Neusse: Horses. There's a stable not even a block and a half from us.
Laufenburger: That's my only question.
Papke: Okay. Anything else? Alright, thank you very much. Appreciate your speaking up.
Would anybody else like to speak up? Sir?
Rodger Neusse: She said it.
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Chanhassen Planning Commission - June 16,2009
Papke: Okay, given that I'll close the public hearing and bring it back to the Planning
Commission for discussion. A lively discussion. Dan, any further comments?
Keefe: You know I'd like to see it expanded a little bit to maybe allow for 4H or something
along those lines.
Papke: How would you define that?
Keefe: Well that's a good question. You know if any of it could be, it could be something along
the line of what Minneapolis does. You know where you get your neighbors involved.
Papke: Any particular set of animals that you would propose?
Keefe: You know we allow horses, right? So something you know probably smaller than that.
Papke: Smaller than a horse?
Keefe: You know a typical 4H type of animals. I mean it seems to me a bit of conflict when you
know because horses are faid y you know, it's unclear to me why we would restrict some of these
other animals and allow horses.
Papke: Well we only allow horses on 1 Yz acre lots, is that correct?
Aanenson: 2 Yz acre.
Keefe: It says 1 Y2 in here.
Papke: That's what I thought too and.
Aanenson: No, but we don't have any that are that size. Most of the residential lots that are in
the, they have to be zoned RR or A2 which are all larger lot minimums. There's a contradiction
there.
Papke: Alright. So there is a limit in that?
Aanenson: There are some non-conforming ones out there. Not to diminish that. There are
some non-conforming ones out there.
Keefe: And you know I think, the point is a good one. You don't want people you know
winding up with whatever they want to do. I mean I can understand you want to have some sort
of order around things but having said that I think to restrict everybody and require maybe the
small percentage who want to come in and do something, you know to the extent that they have
the support of their neighbors and you also have the nuisance laws in place, I don't see why we
just sort of blanket say no, you can't do that.
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Thomas: Thinking about it. I get what they're saying about the chickens and I'm just kind of
tom between what, how do they belong in with you know house pets and if we do that how do
we then regulate that, especially with not having an animal control officer and my concern is,
while these people would obviously take very good care of their chickens. I don't have any
doubt about that whatsoever.
Papke: Right.
Thomas: My concern is, unfortunately I hate, it's like we punish people you know, the good
can't do it as well because I have to be concerned about the people who will not take good care
of you know their animals. But and I just worry. Like will people want to come in and want
turkeys as well for their house you know because, look at them. What are you going to do with a
turkey but eat it but I don't know, people probably eat their chickens too to be honest so I
wouldn't be.
Papke: I think it does bring up a point we should discuss a little bit in that the difference, I
would consider the difference between a house pet and in this case farm animal or whatever is
you eat stuff. Okay? You don't eat your house pets typically.
Thomas: Right.
Papke: Unless you swallow goldfish.
Thomas: Right.
Papke: But not that you're going to eat your chicken but you're going to eat the eggs or
whatever.
Thomas: Right.
Papke: Okay, there's some part of the animal that's being consumed and so there is a
differentiation here and I think.
Keefe: How do you compare like a chicken to a rottweiller?
Papke: You don't eat rottweillers.
Keefe: You know but I mean, you know eating it is one thing but if it's a dog which you know
your neighborhood kids might feel unsafe about but it's unregulated.
Papke: Right. However I think if you purchase such a dog, people expect that that is a pet in the
classical sense of the term. We could have a long debate about you know breeds and the issues
around that but.
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Thomas: Well because again it's that whole thing you punish one, you know what I mean? The
good for the bad. You hear all the people's rottweillers you know and not all of them are
horrible.
Papke: Getting back to the issue of consumption. I think the one slippery slope we do have to
be aware of is there's kind of a history in the Twin Cities and in the upper Midwest of running
into issues when people begin to slaughter their animals and you know that's a whole different
deal so okay, you allow chickens or ducks or whatever. Are people allowed to kid them in their
back yard and eat them? Okay, and how do you stop that?
Keefe: Has it been an issue here?
Papke: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Keefe: Off of farms?
Papke: Yeah.
Aanenson: Chickens.
Papke: Yeah, there was quite a controversy with pigs here with, I think it was the Hmong
community that was setting up slaughter operations and such, so you know just that, not that this
is a big deal but I just want to make sure that we're allow aware that there is a facet of what
happens if that kind of thing happens. We've got to consider the consequences. Mark you were
going to.
Undestad: Well yeah I just think this conversation is probably exactly why we tried to word this
and put this package together like this because how do you differentiate everybody that comes in.
The fact that a lot of people are wanting to buy organic and home grown stuff, yeah we all are
kind of gearing towards that but there's a lot more farms close by raising our chickens and our
eggs and things like that that we can buy locally and organically and...
Papke: Right. CSA's. Community Supported Agriculture I think has some co-ops. Denny,
your thoughts.
Laufenburger: Yeah Kurt your language just really drove home the message for me. A chicken
raised for the purposes of sustainable lifestyle, eating the by-product or eating the fruit of the
chicken, that moves it outside of a pet in my view. And that moves it into an agricultural process
as opposed to a companion process, which is what a pet is. Now I have no doubt that Jennifer
and Rodger would take very good care, certainly based on her history in Carver County.
Cologne I think she said. I'm sure she would do a wonderful job but we don't know that every
family that was presented with that same ordinance would do the same. I do happen to like, by
the way I like the notion of having a permit that must be secured every year so you have a check
point that something that gets out of hand in the eyes of the neighbors could be curtailed or could
be stopped at least after one year. But in general I don't think a chicken raised with any purposes
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that are of a agricultural, sustainable nature, I don't think that's something that should be done in
the city. That's my viewpoint.
Papke: Let me throw out just one other wrinkle here, just to complicate matters. I know there's
a family in Chaska that raises angora rabbits and shears them and spins the hair into angora yam.
So we have rabbits as a pet. Listed on our pets I believe Sharmeen?
Al-Jaff: Yeah.
Papke: So is that an allowed situation where you're making yam out of your angora rabbits?
Where does that sit? So you know if that's the definition, if using the fruits of the animal if you
will, the by-products is the definition, then we have another sticky issue then so. This is a real
interesting one.
Aanenson: we're focusing on chickens but there's other people that want to do bees. Bee
keeping. Goats. We're kind of taking the soft one but we, just to be clear that we have a lot of
requests for those two also. Goats and bees.
Papke: Yeah. You know I think what this kind of boils down to, right, wrong or differ is what
kind of community do we want this to be. You know if we like everything to be prim and proper
and you know nobody has any messes in their back yard and we're real upscale and not in my
back yard kind of stuff, do we want to be that? Or you know the other extreme is, is you know
do we want this to be kind of a barn yard environment where geez, everybody's got half a farm
in their back yard? Now obviously those are the two extremes okay and we want to be you know
not necessarily in the middle ofthe road but we want to be somewhere you know, where do we
want to be in that spectrum. And I think what the folks that spoke up are getting to is certainly a
trend in our culture right now and to be frank with you is something I think deserves some
encouragement. I think there is value in sustainable agriculture, but it's going to cause some
issues. Once you allow this stuff, it's the slippery slope problem where how many and
administering this and licenses and which animals? You know okay when you allow chickens
and ducks and next week we get bees. People clamoring for bees. You know how much of a
task do we want city staff to cope with and is it worth it for the city? Again getting back to what
kind of city do we want so.
Laufenburger: I don't think we can ordinance prim and proper. I've driven through Chanhassen
and I'm very proud to live in Chanhassen, but there are some homes that if it were mine I'd clean
them up a little bit frankly, but what we can do is we can, we can prepare or we can ask the
community to follow a guideline that we believe matches the kind of community we want to be.
Papke: And what do you think the average person in Chanhassen thinks? Do you think the
average person in Chanhassen thinks a couple chickens in the back yard laying eggs is what we
want to be?
Laufenburger: I don't think that's the average person in Chanhassen. I think if that was we'd
have more chickens in Chanhassen already. And there might be more people here tonight.
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Keefe: Right. I guess it just depends on you know do we want to restrict everything? I mean do
we want to go all the way to, because I read this as being way over on one side. You know let's
just nobody can do this.
Undestad: But the problem is trying to define, pick and choose.
Thomas: Right.
Keefe: No, I think Minneapolis has taken a stab at it. I mean do you disagree with that or? In
terms of allowing, and I'm not saying we want to be like Minneapolis but I mean, they've
brought it back a little bit.
Undestad: Well I think again we don't want to be like Minneapolis, not that there's anything
wrong with Minneapolis but I think if you look into probably where those, I mean they created
that ordinance for a reason and there's probably neighborhoods that have a lot of chickens in the
neighborhood so they had to do something.
Keefe: Right.
Undestad: Again I don't think you drive around, you know I haven't seen too many chickens. I
don't see any chickens running around Chanhassen but you know I think it's just the difficulty
of trying to pick and choose and how do we do that? I think you have to kind of come up with
what staff has here is, alright. Let's break them down this way. You know I mean I guess if it
came to the you know, well I guess looking at this way I'd probably just kind of leave it
myself. .. There's just no really way to say okay chickens are good. Pigs are bad. Turkeys are
maybe. Or for a week or a month or 6 months or.
Keefe: How does the nuisance law kind of, the zoning ordinance says the animals may not be
kept if they cause a nuisance or endanger the health or safety of the community and factor into
you know, into this?
Papke: The issue I have with nuisance laws is they're generally quite vague and open to
interpretation. It's kind of in the eye of the beholder and I think what the intent was here is to try
to not put ourselves always in that situation of trying to figure out what a nuisance is.
Aanenson: Right, because you'd be trying to figure out is it smelling too much? Is it making too
much noise? So that becomes, we even defining noise can be tricky. Duration and frequency so
some of that's going to be different... different neighborhood tolerances.
Keefe: But it seems like getting the agreement of your neighbors, consent and then sort of you
know a review of that seems to be you know sort of getting at that. How do you enforce the
nuisance basically because there you know, they would be the ones that are affected.
Undestad: But again unless you get everybody you know is it fair for the 1 or 2 or the handful of
neighbors that say well I was here the longest. I don't like chickens. Everybody else over here
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says yes and these poor guys have been there, you know again, that kind of goes into the whole
how do you pick and choose?
Thomas: Or you say yes and then it becomes a nuisance and then you're tied.
Undestad: Trying to clean it up, yeah.
Papke: We have a similar situation though even with dogs and so on. I may not like my
neighbors dogs.
Undestad: Oh yeah, I'm sure we do probably get some calls on the dogs.
Aanenson: Oh yeah, sure.
Papke: So it's not like we don't have to.
Undestad: No, but everybody knows there's dogs and cats running around so.
Papke: So maybe they should all know that there's chickens.
Keefe: Chickens, ducks, pigs.
Papke: Have we beaten this one to death? So bring it to a vote here. I guess I'll entertain a
motion. Do we want to take a motion on each of these?
Aanenson: Yes.
Papke: Okay. So I'll entertain a motion at this point.
Undestad: I'll make a motion here. I make a motion that, have you got it?
Thomas: No.
Undestad: Wrong page. There we go. That staff recommends amending the City Code to add
the definitions listed in this issue paper and delete any reference to the Al district to the City
Code. Staff also requesting direction on whether to allow other animals in the city through a
conditional use permit or prohibit them.
Papke: Is there a second?
Laufenburger: Second.
Undestad moved, Laufenburger seconded that the Planning Commission recommends that
the City Council approve amending the City Code to add the definitions listed in the staff
report dated May 26, 2009. All voted in favor, except Papke and Keefe who opposed and
the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 2.
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Papke: And just to in retrospect here, I think there's been plenty of discussion around this but
you know I think our somewhat divided vote here is reflective of the fact that this is certainly not
a clear cut issue and I think it's going to be indicative of what will happen when we roll this out.
I think there will be, you know if it goes out as it stands right now, I think they're over the long
run there will be some friction in the community.
Laufenburger: Well the good news is, it can be changed.
Papke: Yes, it certainly can.
Laufenburger: Based in a response from the community and how it's perceived.
Papke: Exactly. Okay. Next item.
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