6 American Legion Sign VarianceCITY OF
PC DATE: 11/19/02
CC DATE: 12/9/02
REVIEW DEADLINE: 12/3/02
CASE #: CUP 02-7 &
VAR 02-16
By:. A1-Jaff
STAFF
REPORT
PROPOSALS:
LOCATION:
APPLICANT:
1) A request for a 3 foot variance from the 5-foot height requirement for
-ground low profile signs.
2) A request for a conditional use permit for a motion (LED) display in a '-
monument sign. ~1
South of Highway 5, East of Great Plains Boulevard, and north of the Citgo
Gas Station and New Horizon Daycare.
Chanhassen American Legion
290 Lake Drive East
Chanhassen, MN 55317
(952) 294-9829
American Legion Housing Committee
-7995 Great Plains Boulevard
Chanhassen, MN 55317
(612) 306-8008
PRESENT ZONING:
BN, Neighborhood Business
ACREAGE:
92,246 Square Feet
DENSITY: N/A 2020 LAND usE: Commercial
SUMMARY OF REQUEST: The American LegiOn-P0st 580 is reqUesting a variance to allow an
8 foot high monument sign. Staff is recommendingdenial of this request. A conditional use permit
is also being requested for an LED sign: Staff is recommending approval of the Conditional Use
Permit. Notice of the public hearing has been sent to properties within 500 feet.
LEVEL OF CITY DISCRETION IN DECISION-MAKING:
The City's discretion in approving or denying a variance is limited to whether or not the proposed
project meets the standards in the Zoning Ordinance for variance. The City has a relatively high
level of discretion with a variance because of the burden of proof is on the applicant to show that
they meet the standards in the ordinance.
The City has limited discretion in approving or denying conditional use permits, based on
whether or not the proposal meets the conditional use permit standards outlined in the Zoning
Ordinance. If the City finds that all the applicable conditional use permit standards are met, the
permit must be approved. This is a quasi-judicial decision.
Chanhassen American Legion Sign CLIP and Variance
t,,,~ ..... ~,,~,., n December 9, 2002
Page 2
APPLICABLE REGULATIONS
Article XXVI, Section 20-1302 reqUires ground profile signs to be a maximum of five (5) feet in
height.
Article XXVI, Section 20-1259 requires a conditional use permit for time and temperature
(motion) signs.
BACKGROUND
On March 11, 2002, the city approved a site plan for the American Legion Post 580. A sign plan
was submitted and approved by the city. It included a wall mounted sign, directional signs, and a
monument sign. All Signs met the ordinance requirements. The applicant applied for a sign
permit. Staff informed the applicant that the proposed sign is inconsistent with the sign approved
by the City Council. The height of the sign exceeded the maximum allowed by ordinance, which
required a variance. Also, the addition of the LED sign requires a conditional use permit.
HEIGHT VARIANCE
ANALYSIS
The applicant is requesting a 3 foot variance to construct an 8 foot monument sign. The height of
a ground low profile sign cannot exceed 5 feet in the Neighborhood Business District. The sign
will be located north of the site, along Highway 5, and will maintain a 10 foot setback from the
property line. The base of the sign is brick that matches the building. The height of the base is
27 inches (2'3"). The monument sign, including the LED display is 47 inches (3'9") high. A
pitched element containing the American Legion's logo is 18 inches (1'6") high. The total height
of the sign is 96 inches (8 feet). The total display area for the sign is 22.96 square feet including
the logo. The ordinance allows a maximum of 24 square feet of sign display area.
The applicant indicated that the main reason for the height variance is to ensure snow
accumulation does not block the sign. Also, the applicant chose to include a pitch on the sign to
mimic the design of the building. The combination of these two elements and an LED sign,
added 3 feet to the total height. It is staff's opinion that the snow can be removed to keep the
views open. As to the design of the sign, staff agrees that the pitched element adds to the overall
appearance of the sign, however, it also adds to the height. As to the area of the sign, it is in
compliance with ordinance requirements.
Although the variance request is small in terms of measurement, staff believes the applicant will
have a reasonable opportunity to advertise their location.
Chanhassen American Legion Sign CUP and Variance
November 19 December 9, 2002
Page 3
The Planning Commission directed staff to prepare a table showing the types and heights
of signs permitted in different zoning districts and compare them to the Neighborhood
Business District.
District
Monument Height
Residential 5 feet
BN, BF, OI 5 feet ..
BH, BG, CBD
Building size 50,000 or greater
Building size less than 50,000
IOP
10 feet
8 feet
8 feet
Pylon Height
20 feet
16 feet
20 feet pe~rnitted on sites
abutting Highway 5
ri
~orthcott
The subject site faces Highway 5. There are establishments within the immediate area that
have pylon signs (Hanus Building, Chamber sign, etc.), however, theSe establishments fall
in a different zoning district. Northcott, which is zoned Neighborhood Business, does not
Chanhassen American Legion Sign CLIP and Variance
N ........... December 9, 2002
Page 4
have a "ground sign" facing Highway 5. Instead, they opted for a wall mounted sign. The
majority of the Planning Commissioners indicated that the limitations on height in this
district were intended to protect residential neighborhoods. In this case, the additional 3
feet in sign height will have no impact on the neighborhood since it will be separated by a
street, parking lot, building, and berm.
FINDINGS
The Planning Commission shall not recommend and the City Council shall not grant a variance
unless they find the following facts:
That the literal enforcement of this chapter would cause undue hardship. Undue hardship
means that the property cannot be put to reasonable use because of its size, physical
surroundings, shape or topography. Reasonable use includes a use made by a majority of
comparable property within 500 feet of it. The intent of this provision is not to allow a
proliferation of variances, but to recognize that there are pre-existing standards in this
neighborhood. Variances that blend with these pre-existing standards without departing
downward from them meet this criteria.
Finding:.
The applicant believes that snow will cause a hardship. The proposal locates a
pitched element on top of the sign which will contain the Legion's logo. The name
and post number is located below the pitched element. Below the name is an LED
sign. These features will have a brick base that matches the brick used on the
building.
The applicant can redesign the sign to meet ordinance 'requirements. The applicant
has a reasonable opportunity to advertise the site.
bo
The conditions upon which a petition for a variance is based are not applicable, generally, to
other property within the same zoning classification.
Finding:
The conditions upon which a petition for a variance is based are applicable,
generally, to other property within the same zoning classification
The purpose of the variation is not based upon a desire to increase the value or income
potential of the parcel of land.
Finding:
The purpose of the variation is not based upon a desire to increase the value or
income potential of the parcel of land. The applicant designed a sign that mimics
the design of the building. Pitched elements always add to the height of any
structure.
Chanhassen American Legion Sign CUP and Variance
Ne, vember 19 December 9, 2002
Page 5
do
The alleged difficulty or hardship is not a self-created hardship.
Finding:
The alleged difficulty or hardship is self-created. The applicant is aware of the
ordinance requirements. The sign can be redesigned to meet ordinance
requirements.
e,
The granting of the variance will not be detrimental to the public welfare or injurious to
other land or improvements in the neighborhood in which 'the parcel is located.
Finding:
The granting of the variance will not be detrimental to the public welfare or
injurious to other land or improvements in the neighborhood in which the parcel is
located.
The proposed variation will not impair an adequate supply of light and air to adjacent
property or substantially increase the congestion of the public streets or increase the danger
of fire or endanger the public safety or substantially diminish or impair property values
within the neighborhood.
Finding:
The proposed variation will not impair an adequate supply of light and air to
adjacent property or substantially increase the congestion of the public streets or
increase the danger of fire or endanger the public safety or substantially diminish or
impair property values within the neighborhood.
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT
ANALYSIS
The applicant is requesting a conditional use permit f~r all LED sign to be located on the monument
sign. The LED sign will advertise specials as well as community events. This motion sign will
comprise 12.151 sq. ft. of the sign display area. The actual letters will be between 9" and 21" in
height.
FINDINGS
The Planning Conm-dssion shall recommend a conditional use permit and the council shall issue
such conditional use permits only if it finds that such use at the proposed location'
1. Will not be detrimental to or damage the public health, safety, comfort, convenience or general
welfare of the neighborhood of the city.
Chanhassen American Legion Sign CLIP and Variance
November 19 December 9, 2002
Page 6
Finding:
The LED sign will display specials and community events. It is a modern
alternative to changeable letters. The sign will provide a convenient method of
communication for the general public.
2. Will be consistent with the objectives of the city's comprehensive plan and this chapter.
Finding:
This use is consistent with the objectives of the city's comprehensive plan and this
chapter.
.
Will be designed, constructed, operated and maintained so to be compatible in appearance.with
the existing or intended character of the general vicinity and will not change the essential
character of that area.
Finding:
Staff believes that the LED display has been designed and will be constructed,
operated and maintained so to be compatible in appearance with the existing
character of the site. This display will not change the essential character of the area.
4. Will not be hazardous or disturbing to existing or planned neighboring uses.
Finding:
The LED display will not be hazardous to existing or planned neighboring uses. It
may be considered a benefit for those traveling on Highway 5:
,
Will be served adequately by essential public facilities and services, including streets, police
and fire protection, drainage structures, refuse disposal, water and sewer systems and schools;
or will be served adequately by such facilities and services provided by the persons or agencies
responsible for the establishment of the. proposed use.
Finding:
Will be served adequately by essential public facilities and services, including
streets, police and fire protection, drainage structUres, refuse disposal, water and
sewer systems and schools; or will be. -served adeqUately by suCh facilities and
services provided by the persons or agencies responsible for the establishment of the
proposed use.
6. Will not create excessive requirements for public facilities and services and will not be
detrimental to the economic welfare of the community.
Finding:
Will not create excessive requirements for public facilities and services and will not
be detrimental to the economic welfare of the community.
Chanhassen American Legion Sign CUP and Variance
November 19 December 9, 2002
Page 7
.
Will not involve uses, activities, processes, materials, equipment and condition of operation that
will be detrimental to any persons, property or the general welfare because of excessive
production of traffic, noise, smoke, fumes, glare, odors, rodents, or trash.
Finding:
Will not involve uses, activities, processes, materials, equipment and condition of
operation that will be detrimental to any persons, property or the general welfare
because of excessive production of traffic, noise, smoke, fumes, glare, odors,
rodents, or trash.
8. Will have vehicular approaches to the property which do not create traffic congestion or
interfere with traffic or surrounding public thoroughfares.
Finding:
Will have vehicular approaches to the property which do not create traffic
congestion or interfere with traffic or surrounding public thoroughfares.
9. Will not result in the destruction, loss or damage of solar access, natural, scenic or historic
features of major significance.
Finding:
Will not result in the destruction, loss or damage of solar access,, natural, scenic or
historic features of major significance.
10. Will be aesthetically compatible with the area.
Finding: Will be aesthetically compatible with the area.
11. Will not depreciate surrounding property values.
Finding:
Will not depreciate surrounding property values.
12. Will meet standards prescribed for certain uses as provided in this article.
Finding: Not applicable.
PLANNING COMMISSION UPDATE
On November 19, 2002, the Planning Commission reviewed this application. The conditional
use permit for the LED sign was approved unanimously. The height variance vote was tied. All
commissioners, regardless of their vote, agreed that the location of this site was unique. The
subject site faces Highway 5. There are establishments within the immediate area that have
pylon signs (Hanus Building, Chamber sign, etc.), however, these establishments fall in a
different zoning district. The limitations on height in this district were intended to protect
Chanhassen American Legion Sign CLIP and Variance
November 19 December 9, 2002
Page 8
residential neighborhoods. In this case, the additional 3 feet in sign height will have no impact
on the neighborhood since it will be separated by a street, parking lot, building, and berm.
Commissioners, who voted to deny the variance, did so to meet the intent of the ordinance.
RECOMMENDATION
Staff recommends the m ~.,.,;.,- c-~.,~,;~o;~,., City Council adopt the following motions:
"The City Council denies the request for a 3 foot variance 02-16 VAR, for the construction of an
8 foot monument sign based upon the findings presented in the staff report and the following:
1. The applicant has not demonstrated a hardship that would warrant the granting of a variance.
2. The applicant has a reasonable opportunity to design a sign that meets ordinance
requirements."
Should the City Council decide to approve the height variance, staff recommends the
following motion:
"The City Council approves the request for a 3 foot variance 02-16 VAR, for the
construction of an 8 foot monument sign baSed upon the following:
1. The sign will face Highway 5 and will not directly impact the residential
neighborhood.
2. Properties within close proximity of the subject site, have signs that exceed 5 feet
in height. .
"The Planning Commission City Council recommends approval for conditional use permit 02-7,
for the LED display within a mOnument ground low profile sign."
ATTACHMENTS
1. Application
2. Property Owners and Public Hearing Notice
3. Sign Elevation.
4. Planning Commission minutes dated November 19, 2002.
'' I
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE
CHANHASSEN, MN 55317
(612) 937-1900
DEVELOPMENT REVIEW APPLICATION
7~PHONE (Daytime),¢~Z- ~¢'- ~~ _ TELEPHONE:_¢/'~ -..~
____ Comprehensive Plan Amendment
,,
Conditional Use Permit
interim Use Permit
Non-conforming Use Permit
Planned Unit Development*
Rezoning
Sign Permits
Sign Plan Review
Site Plan Review*
Subdivision*
Temporary Sales Permit
Vacation of ROW/Easements
~ Variance f/~-~ i~
Wetland Alteration Permit
_ Zoning Appeal
_ _ Zoning Ordinance Amendment
Notification Sign
~X Escrow for Filing Fees/Attorney Cost**
,.~$50_CU P/S P R/VAC/VAR/WAP/Metes
and Bounds, $400 Minor SUB)
TOTAL FEE $ ~ .::';":: .:':'
A list of all property owners within 500 feet of the boundaries of the property must be included with the
application.
,Building material samples must be submitted with site plan reviews.
"Twenty-Six full size fold copies of the plans must be submitted, including an 81/2.' X 11" reduced copy of
/..L~e~e~for each plan sheet.
"* Escrow will be required for other applications through the development contract
NOTE - When multiple applications are processed, the appropriate fee shall be charged for each application.
LEGAL DESCRIPTION
'TOTALAOREAGE ~,~, ~
WETLANDS PRESENT YES ,'~.. NO
PRESENT ZONING ~'~0... f~,/ /,,~
REQUESTED ZONING ~>~(~',~.,,'~/.-_
D SlGN^'nON
REASON FOR THIS REQUEST
This application must.be completed in full and be typewritten or clearly printed and must be accompanied by all information
~nd plans required by applicable City Ordinance provisions. Before filing this application, you should confer with the Planning.
Department to determine the specific ordinance and procedural requirements applicable to Your application.
~' determination of completeness of the application shall be made within ten business days of application submittal. A written
~o:ice of application deficiencies shall be mailed to the applicant within ten business days of application.
.
[-hi~; is to certify that I am making application for the described action by the City and that I am responsible for complying with
tll City requirements with regard to this request. This applicat, ion should be processed in my name and I am the party whom
he City should contact regarding any matter pertaining to this application. I have attached a copy of proof of ownership (either
:opy of Owner's Duplicate Certificate of-Title, Abstract of Title or purchase agreement), or I am the authorized person to make
bls application and the fee owner has also signed this application.
v,,~ t,,eep myself informed of the deadlines for submission of material and the progress of this application. I further
mderstand 'that additional fees may be charged for consulting fees, feasibility studies, etc. with an estimate prior to any
tuthorization to proceed with the study. The documents and information I have submitted are true and correct to the best of
~y k, nowledge.
he d~y hereby notifies the applicant that development review cannot be completed within 60 days due to public hearing
.~quirements and agency review. Therefore, the city is notifying the applicant that the city requires an automatic 60 day
xtension for development review. Development review shall be completed within 120 days unless additional review
Date
)plication Receyed on
Date
Fee Paid Receipt No.
~e appTicant should contact staff for a copy of the staff report which will be available on Friday prior to the meeting.
nDt centacted, a copy of the report will be mailed to the applicant's address.
Monument Sign Construction
American Legion Post 580
Chanhassen, MN
This sign has two single face Daktronics #3060 L.E.D. display units, and two single face Serigraphics
Sign Systems Illuminated cabinets mounted back to back. There is a 3 inch square steel tube support
structure imbedded in 48 inches of below grade concrete, and extends up through 27 inches of concrete
and brick, then in between the back to back single face display units.
The upper portion of the monument is the illuminated cabinets by Serigraphics. The cabinet and face are
constructed of aluminum. The face is .090 inch thick aluminum and will have raised copy and an
American Legion logo. Both copy and logo will be ½ inch acrylic push through letters. Push through
letters have a lip on the back which keeps them from pushing all the way through the aluminum. The get
glued to the back of the aluminum. The copy and logo will have a yellow or bronze color. The logo will
be silk-screened.
The background color of the monument to be a NaD' Blue. Serigraphics will also paint tl~e Dactronics
units since they come in painted black.
Any questions please call me.
Bob Kane
Serigraphics Sign Systems, Inc.
952-944-8860
NOTICE OF PUBLIC HEARING
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2002 AT 7:00 P.M.
CITY HALL COUNCIL CHAMBERS
7700 MARKET BLVD.
PROPOSAL:
Variance and Conditional
Use Permit for Monument Sign
APPLICANT: American Legion Post 580
LOCATION: 290 Lake Drive East
NOTICE: You are invited to attend a public hearing about a proposal in your area. The applicant, American
Legion Post 580, is requesting a sign height variance and conditional use permit for a monument LED display
sign on property zoned Highway.Corridor District 1 and Central Business District and located at 290 Lake
Drive East.
What Happens at the Meeting: The purpose of this public hearing is to inform you about the applicant's
request and to obtain input from the neighborhood about this project. During the meeting, the Chair will lead
!he public hearing through the following steps:
il. Staff will give an overview of the proposed project.
The applicant will present plans on the project.
Comments are received from the public.
Public hearing is closed and the Commission discusses the project.
uestions and Comments: If you want to see the plans before the meeting, please stop by City Hall during
hours, 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m., Monday through Friday. If you wish to talk to someone about this project,
)lease contact Sharmeen at 227-1134. If you choose to submit written comments, it is helpful to have one
to the department in advance of the meeting.. Staff will provide copies to the Commission.
bf this public hearing has been published in the Chanhassen Villager on November 7, 2002.
Smooth Feed £heetsTM
AMERICAN LEGION-CHAN POST 580
7995 GREAT PLAINS BLV[
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
AMOCO AMERICAN OIL CO
C/O ERNST & YOUNG LLP
PO BOX 06529
CHICAGO IL 60606
CITY OF CHANHASSEN.. _...-
C/O BRUCE DEJONG--' '
7700 MARJSF~--B~,D PO BOX 147
C 5tA~NA'SSEN MN 55317
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
C/O BRUCE DEJONG .'
7700 MARKI~T-BLVD PO BOX 147
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
CITY OF CttANHASSEN
C/O BRUCE DEJ~-'--''J
7700 MARK_.E-T~BLVD 170 BOX 147
BROWN PROPERTIES LLC
C/O GARY L BROWN
1831 KOEHNEN CIR W
EXCELSIOR MN 5533
V.,'U_.VOLINT~ INSTANT OIL CHANGE
3499 DABNEY DR
LEXINGTON KY 40509
G L B PROPERTIES LLC
1831 KOEHNEN CIR
EXCELSIOR MN
DAVID S JOSSI
250 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN
MN 55317
JAMES B & KAREN A COOK
260 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
ERIC S LINVILLE &
KAFI E COHN
280 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN MN
55317
LEE & MARY KAUFMAN
300 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
JEFF & KAREN HONGSLO
310 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
MARK A METZ
320 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN
MN 55317
DAVID A LYONS &
JL~IE TENHOFF-LYONS
330 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN . MN
55317
MATTHEW J PATTEE &
DONNA E SPINELLI
340 HIDDEN LN
CttANHASSEN MN
55317
RICttARD C & JULIE L NESSLY
350 HIDDEN LN
CtlANHASSEN MN 55317
JAMES A & CAROL A UDSTUEN
360 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
MICHAEL R SCHNABEL &
SANDRA J STAI
370 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
BISRAT & DENISE ALEMAYEHU
380 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
Use template for 5160®
WILLIAM R & DEBRA E PRIGGE
390 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
NGUYEN & BINH NGU CHAU
8080 HIDDEN CT
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
KEVIN R & DONNA J BECKER
8060 HIDDEN CT
CItANHASSEN MN 55317
BRIAN D & JEAN M STECKLING
8040 HIDDEN CT
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
THO/5.4AS PAUL BOTAMER
8020 HIDDEN CT
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
PAUL R & MICHELLE/54 HAIK
261 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
KEITH & DELORES H BLATZttEIM
271 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
DAVID L & MEGAN M KLEIN
8000 HIDDEN CIR
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
ANTHONY & MARY PAVLOVICH
8010 HIDDEN CIR
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
LAUREN C & SHAUNA J KOPP
8020 HIDDEN LN
CHANHASSEN MN 55317
Smooth Feed Sheets
tINE M SWANK
1 HIDDEN CIR
.~HASSEN MN
55317
DISCOVERY UNITED METH CHURCH
950 TRUMBLE ST
CHASKA MN 55318
Use template for 5160®
.IE K REDMOND
1 HIDDEN CIR
ANHASSEN MN
55317
BLUE CIRCLE INVESTMENT CO
1304 MEDICINE LAKE$3~ 301
PLYMOUTH MN 55441
NCY L HELLAND
1 HIDDEN CIR
;SEN MN
55317
CHANHASSEN NH PARTNERSHIP
900 2ND AVE S 1100 INTERNATIOI'
MINNrEAPOLIS MN 55402
& CARLA THOMPSON
HIDDEN LN
;EN MN 55317
HOLIDAY STATION STORES INC
4567 80TH ST W
BLOOMINGTON MN 55437
k/lAS J & JODI E SCItI~EYER
HIDDEN LN
;SEN MN 55317
AN E SEMKE &
AH C DEUTSCtt
HIDDEN LN
EN MN
55317
IERT J & LOIS A SAVARD
MARSH DR
NHASSEN MN 55317
)N K & LAURA J LEHMAN
MARSH DR
:EN MN 55317
DEVELOPMENT LLC
NORTHCOTT COMPANY
~dEDRE
~ASSEN MN 55317
iASSEN HRA
MARKET BLVD.s-PO BOX 147
.~/MN 55317
./
PUBLIC HEARING:
REQUEST FOR A SIGN HEIGHT VARIANCE AND CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT
FOR A MONUMENT LED DISPLAY SIGN FOR THE AMERICAN LEGION POST $80
ON PROPERTY ZONED HIGHWAY CORRIDOR DISTRICT 1 AND CENTRAl,
BUSINESS DISTRICT AND LOCATED AT 290 LAKE DRIVE EAST.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Bob Kane
Jack Kreger
7321 Washington Avenue So.
7606 Kiowa Avenue
Sharmeen AI-Jaff presented the staff report on this item.
Blackowiak: Thank you. Before we go on Sharmeen, I'd just tike you to talk a little bit about
this handout we got.
A1-Jaff: Sure. Commissioner Sacchet spoke to staff earlier and requested a comparison of what
is permitted on different, within different districts as far as signage. And what I did is just
compile monument as well as pylon signs, and what you see before you is the height of signs
within that district. For instance within residential districts you're only allowed monument signs
not to exceed 5 feet. BN, which is this district, again 5 feet. No pylon signs. When you get into
the Highway Business, General B, Central Business District, you're allowed pylon signs as well
as monument signs. The height in this case goes up to anywhere between 8 and 10 feet. And
with pylon signs you need to be along Highway 5. So just, it was a request that.
Sacchet: Thank you.
Blackowiak: Great, no thank you. I just wanted to kind of clarify that. Commissioners, any
questions of staff?
Slagle: I've got one. I can start. Sharmeen.
A1-Jaff: Yes.
Slagle: Could you take out or show up on the table the map that shows sort of the downtown or
Highway 5 area. Let's see. More the area itself. Like we have on.
Sacchet: Like this.
$1agle: Yeah. And my question is, is how close would the next zoning district that would allow
them, because their building I think is less than 50,000 square feet, how close is that? Where
would be the nearest sign if you will, that would be 8 feet and that would be allowed?
A1-Jaff: Across the street. The Hanus.
Aanenson: Well right next door, Park Nicollet also can have a sign.
A1-Jaff: Oh, Park Nicollet is, will be coming in in the future.
Slagle: Okay. And their monument sign would be.
A1-Jaff: It should be 5 feet. Not to exceed 5 feet.
Aanenson: No, he's asking how close for the setback from the property line, is it 10 feet?
Blackowiak: Oh no, no, no.
Slagle: Here's what I'm asking. Is I'm asking, since their, since the, you can have an 8 foot
monument sign for buildings less than 50,000 square feet in some of the zones that you've listed
on the sheet for Commissioner Sacchet, where would the proximity be to this sign? I mean could
it be that this building just has the ill fortune of being in a Neighborhood Business district with
someone 200 feet away is quote unquote zoned whatever, and they have an 8 foot sign.
A1-Jaff: If you look across the street at the Hanus building, it is in a Highway Business District.
They do have a sign that is, I believe it's 8 feet.
Slagle: 8 or 10.
A1-Jaff: 8 or 10, yes.
Slagle: Okay. So then a key here, in my opinion, is sticking to the zoning ordinance and the
reason it's zoned Neighborhood Business is because of the homes to the south. Fair statement?
A1-Jaff:' That's correct.
Slagle: Okay. So then it's a question in my mind is, how much impact of the residents, and just
travel with me here, going to have on a sign whether it's 5 feet or 8 feet, when all the signs
around it, assuming they're zoned in the' other zoning, are 8 to 10 feet. Okay. Just want to see if I
was asking the right question. Thank you.
Blackowiak: Alright. Questions down here.
.Sacchet: Well, why do we need a conditional use permit for that moving letter sign. I was kind
of surprised by that.
A1-Jaff: That's how the ordinance reads.
Sacchet: Because the ordinance requests it? Okay. Is there a reason why we would want to
restrict those or control those? Do you know where that comes from?
Aanenson: Actually the conditional use for there is, you can't have a movable sign. This would
give an exemption. It also, some of the conditions that they actually do sometimes community
events on their signs which I think in the past hasn't been a problem but sometimes that's a
condition of approval too that they advertise community events. Whether it's Feb Festival or the
4th of July activities or something. I know the Chan Bank does.
Slagle: Or pancake breakfast for Santa on December 1st from 8:00 to 1:00, Chan Rec Center.
Blackowiak: You got your plug in there right?
Aanenson: Something for the Rotary and the Chamber, correct.
Blackowiak: Any questions at all?
Sidney: No questions.
Blackowiak: Any questions down here?
Feik: Yes I have one. Had they come in with a request to put the sign on the building itself, on
the roof, on the fascia, something higher, what would be the constraints at that point?
A1-Jaff: That was something that we discussed when their site plan came in, and part of the
discussion was they would give up the signage that faces Highway 5. In return they would have a
wall mounted sign. Actually this is the location of the wall mounted sign.
Feik: Which is not visible from the highway.
A1-Jaff: No it's not because they were going to have the monument.
Feik: But had they not done the monument, and put something on the roof line or the fascia on
the highway side.
Al-Jarl: They're allowed one sign.
Feik: Because of the square footage.
A1-Jaff: And it was a choice that they made.
Feik: Okay, thank you.
Blackowiak: Okay. Any questions Steve?
Lillehaug: No questions.
Claybaugh: I have a question. Is there any information or is there, Sharmeen? I'm SO~Ty, is there
any information or is there a benchmark for the topography on that? Is that pretty flat landscape
where that's going in or is it.
Sacchet: It's slightly sloped isn't it.
Claybaugh: Is that on the edge of a berm or. Okay, so it's pretty fiat. Okay. So the property
directly to the east, that's also Business Neighborhood?
A1-Jaff: Yes. This entire piece right here.
Claybaugh: It's all Business Neighborhood.
A1-Jaff: It's all Neighborhood Business. Northcott is here. Legion and you have the clinic that
will be coining in in the near future.
Claybaugh: Okay. That's all the questions I have.
Lillehaug: And I do have one question, now that I saw that picture. Sharmeen, could you
comment on this drawing here where it says the ground low profile sign to be centered on high
point of berm. And then there' s a new location that' s highlighted. What you show there was that
the high point location, so in essence the sign will actually, what they're requesting now is to be
located on the bottom of the berm?
A1-Jaff: Actually, if you go out there today, there is footings that show the location of the sign
and there isn't a berm.
Blackowiak: There's brick. I mean the base is there.
Aanenson: The footings are there.
A1-Jaff: The footings are.
Aanenson: The footings are.
Blackowiak: Okay, I thought it was actually the base. We'll ask the applicant. I mean I think
the, I think of footings as down in the ground.
A1-Jaff: Yes, there should be a lip showing.
Blackowiak: Oh, I thought that it was much higher than a lip.
Feik: It's a big lip.
Blackowiak: It's a big lip, yes.
Claybaugh: About a 27 inch lip?
Blackowiak: Something like that, yeah. I was going to say 3 feet but I could be wrong. Okay,
we'll ask the applicant. Okay, any other questions? Okay. At this point I'd like to open this item
for a public hearing. Oh that's right, excuse me. Let the applicant come up and make their
presentation first. And I would like to know about how big a lip this is.
Bob Kane: My name is Bob Kane, and I work a Serigraphics Sign Systems, We'll be Putting
the sign together. -
Slagle: Could you pull that mic towards you.
Bob Kane: Serigraphics Sign Systems will be constructing the sign, except for the programmable
unit. That's a Dactronics unit. And it's identical to the one that's in the Chanhassen Cinema.
That's a Dactronics 3060 unit and that's what's going in this one too. Originally we were going
rectangular because of the square footage but we wanted to put an angled roof on there to tie it in
with the looks of the building but the square footage wouldn't, was pushing it but we were able to
work that in because of an architectural advantage to make it tie in with the building. And we
wanted-to get it up 8 feet because the bottom of the sign, if it'sdown as low as 10 inches above
the grade, snow will definitely be higher than that and will get into the filtering system and the air
system of the electronic unit. So we wanted to get that up higher. The alternative is to shovel
a~vay and keep the snow shoveled away from that, but there's a number of people at the American
Legion that are above the age of 50 and some have pace makers and they don't want to be out
there shoveling and it might be something of a liability asset too for the city if they have to go to
that clinic that's next door because they' ve been out there shoveling.
Blackowiak: Oh I think that they could be enticed into buying a snow blower don't you? Guys
and power tools, you know any excuse. Go ahead, I'm sorry. That'd be my husband. Let me
tell you, any time he can buy some new toy.
Claybaugh: To digress.
Blackowiak: I'm sorry, we are digressing.
Lillehaug: This won't help but I'm a member and I'm only, and I'm pretty young.
Blackowiak: Do you're shoveling, is that what you're saying?
Lillehaug: I guess I might have to volunteer.
Blackowiak: So I'm sorry, let's get back to the sign. Do you know about the base size? I'll just
ask a quick question.
Bob Kane: The base.
Blackowiak: I mean I kind of assumed that there was.
Bob Kane: Those would be 27 inches above the grade.
Blackowiak: So that's what's cun'ently there, 27 inches? Roughly.
Bob Kane: Yeah. The construction company put that in because' of faith that you would go.
Aanenson: Yeah, they were not given approval for that. We authorized the footing only so.
Bob Kane: Right. They moved ahead and put that in, hoping that it would be, not have to be
~knocked down. And the reasoning behind that was because of construction issues and if they
didn't get it before the freeze and things and it wouldn't be able to go. in so. It was not my
recommendation.
Blackowiak: Okay.
Claybaugh: So pacemakers and masonry, go ahead.
Blackowiak: Alright. Did you have anything further or should we open this up for questions?
Bob Kane: You can open it up for questions.
Blackowiak: Great. Commissioners, do you have any questions of the applicant?
Claybaugh: Yes I do. Even without the pedestal, the 27 inch pedestal that the Dactronics and the
main signage is on, you're still pushing in excess of 5 feet, even without it being up on a pedestal.
What other alternatives had they looked at at this stage?
Bob Kane: Well, they're only allowed 24 square foot of signage.
Claybaugh: Correct.
Bob Kane: And the sign itself was taking up about 20, just under 23 square feet. And to have it
to fit into there, that would be a rectangular sign and it could only have a 10 inch brick work
underneath there, because to get your square footage, and to meet the 5 foot, you're restricted to a
10 foot, 10 inches of brick. And that gets it pretty low to the.
Claybaugh: That was my comment that even without the pedestal the signage itself is a
combination of 47 inches plus 18, so that in and of itself is in excess of 5 feet. At least on the
sketch that I have in front of me.
Bob Kane: Right. The original sketch didn't have that additional 18 inches.
Claybaugh: Okay. The Dactronics sign or the portion of that sign, I forget what you said the
dimensions of that unit are but what are the variations or what' s the next size down for that or do
they offer a size down from that, that would be a possibility? Not necessarily as...
Bob Kane: For the Dactronics unit?
Claybaugh: Yes.
Bob Kane: I would not recommend getting any smaller. The other alternative would be,
removing, making the American Legion area smaller. That LED, the Dactronics in it is really the
smallest that you're going to want anywhere because of traveling purposes. You're not going to
read very much if that thing' s any smaller. It' s already pushing it with trying to maintain a 24
square feet.
Claybaugh: Not to get into the design of the sign but had they considered putting the American
Legion emblem or that language down on the masonry and being able to bring that down to get
that more into conformance. Did you look at that alternative?
Bob Kane: Yeah, that wasn't brought up but it could be arranged that way but on the bottom of
the LED there needs to be at least a minimum of 3 inches of space because the air filter has to
drop down and pull out for cleaning.
Claybaugh: I'm just looking if you've got a 27 inch pedestal down there, if you took the
American Legion Post 580 down, put that down. Kept the architectural feature for the pitch and
the logo up above your digital element there.
Bob Kane: It certainly could be. It could be.
Claybaugh: Okay. That's all the questions I have.
Feik: I have no questions for the applicant, thanks.
Blackowiak: Questions? Uli. Rich.
Slagle: No questions.
Blackowiak: No questions, thank you.
Bob Kane: Okay, thank you.
Blackowiak: Okay, at this point I will open the item up for a public hearing. So anybody
wishing to comment, please come to the microphone and state your name and address for the
record.
Jack Kreger: Good evening. My name is Jack Kreger. I'm from the American Legion and I was
on the building committee. I wasn't really involved with the, most of the sign work but we feel
that to get, if the sign is down below, the snow is going to be a factor. And as you come from the
east and come under the bridge, if it's up a little higher, you're going to have a little better
visibility. And as far as the read-out on it, we are planning on using it for community events and
whatever the city has some request for that so we would, I would sure appreciate it if you'd
approve this. Thank you.
Blackowiak: Okay, thank you.
Slagle: Jack, I've got a question ifI may. I just have to ask, do you have any explanation as to
how the brick got up?
Jack Kreger: They went ahead and did it. They didn't ask us. They had the bricklayers there at
the time and they went ahead and did it because they, in order to get them back it would cost
them just as much as it is if you want to tear it down if they have to. That was the explanation
that they gaye to us.
Blackowiak: Thanks. Anyone else like to comment on this issue? If not, I will close the public
hearing. Time for comments. Commissioners. Start at this end.
Slagle: Thank you Chair. I'm in support of granting the variance. Not that I don't appreciate
exactly what staff is suggesting, but I think in that area with multiple zoning areas, districts, I just
think this is going to fit in just fine. I'm disappointed, as you can imagine, on the fact that there
are bricks, but I appreciate the honest answer so I'm going to put those two things separate and
just to let you know that I will support the request for a variance. The LED sign I also will
support. I don't have an issue with that at all.
Blackowiak: Okay, thank you: Uli, any comments?
Sacchet: Yeah. I'm in agreement with the conditional use permit for the LED sign. I don't see a
problem with that at all. I'm a little bit torn about the variance because if I think back, and I've
been on this commission for what, about 2 years. 2 V2 years. And I didn't tally it up but I think
when variances come before us we probably approved at least half, or certainly more...less of the
variances, and that is just not the function of a Planning Commission. That's not the function of
ordinances. I mean if we give everybody every variance they come ask for, we, our ordinance,
there's something wrong with our ordinances. I do see that there are some circumstances that
speak in your favor. Snow. Have a little more visibility. Across the street it wouldn't be an
issue. However the ordinance states that in this place, there's a restriction and myself as Uli, I
wouldn't think twice. Go do it. It's a reasonable thing, but I think in my responsibility to the city
as a planning commissioner, at some point we have to start tightening this a little bit. A variance
should be an exception and not the rule and in this body I come to the conclusion it's ahnost more
or less the rule. And you can always go to the City Council, which from our experience is very
likely going to allow it. That's probably inappropriate for me to make that comment but I think
it's the truth so that's my comments.
Blackowiak: Okay, thank you. LuAnn.
Sidney: I guess I don't have a problem with the LED conditional use permit. I do agree with
staff s analysis that this application doesn't meet the requirements of a variance. I don't really
see any undue hardship in this case. Snow can be removed and heating tape can be put around
places or whatever so that there shouldn't be any problem in that regard. Other businesses have
met the 5 foot requirement in height so I just don't see that we need to, I guess I just don't see the
need here. There's no compelling reason to grant a variance in this case. The applicant can
construct a sign, it's just a matter of re-designing it.
Blackowiak: Okay, thank you. Comments.
Feik: Yes. I generally support the variance. I'm looking at this and saying, I think the signage is
in keeping with what's going on on the Highway 5 corridor there. Had it been on the south side
of the parcel which faces the neighborhood, and it would be a neighborhood sign in the business
neighborhood kind of thing, I would have a great different opinion. I look across the street to
what's going on with the lube shop and Brown's and everything else. I look back down the street
towards the west, and I don't see that this is not in keeping with what else is going on in the
overall neighborhood, and I'm spreading the neighborhood out beyond the 3 parcels here in ,
question. And so I would support both.
Blackowiak: Okay, thank you. Steve.
Lillehaug: My only comment is I' 11 be abstaining from voting since I am a member.
Blackowiak: Okay. Craig.
Claybaugh: I agree with Commissioner Sacchet. I could see us sitting here in the future having
this same discussion about Park Nicollet. Though I would like to in that it's, I think that the
Americah Legion does a lot of good work for the community, I lack to see a compelling reason to
do it. I wish that they had held off obviously on putting in the footings. As Commissioner
Lillehaug had pointed out, there is a note on here that identifies that the profile sign to be centered
on the high point of the berm. -I think a combination of raising up a berm in that area and raising
that roof and possibly doing some slight modifications to the sign would address the problem.
Unfortunately you no longer have that luxury because the footings are in and you've left with
what you' ve got. The digital element of it I think is an asset. I have no problem with that
whatsoever but with respect to the variance, I agree with Commissioner Sacchet that I don't see
any compelling reason to approve it. That's all I have.
Blackowiak: Okay, thank you. As to the LED display, I would certainly go ahead and
recommend approval for that with the condition that we do see some community events displayed
on that. I think that's a nice feature. The variance, I really struggled with this because again I
don't know that we have seen a hardship. The only hardship I can see is the fact that the zoning
district is BN, whereas across the highway you've got BH and that would be the only way I could
look at it in terms of a hardship. As it comes down to it, I would actually be able to support the
sign as an 8 foot sign simply because it is along Highway 5 and as Commissioner Feik said, not
along the south side of the building. And the fact that their zoning is such that the south side of
Highway 5 only gets the 5 feet, whereas the north side gets more than 5. So I'm kind of looking
at the hardship as being the zoning of this area and the different sign requirements in different
zoning, so with that I would support the variance. I need a motion then.
Feik: I've got a motion. I recommend that the City Council approve.
Blackowiak: The Planning Commission?
Feik: Excuse me. I'm reading what it says City Council, but it should have been Planning
Commission. Approve the request for a 3 foot sign variance and for the construction of an 8 foot
monument sign based upon, monument sign period. I think that would be the end of it.
Aanenson: Can we for the record just summarize if you're recommending approval, the rationale
so we can forward those to the City Council. If I could just sununarize what I heard you say is
that based on the multiple zoning districts in the area, adjacency to Highway 5 and it's not visible
from the neighborhood.
Feik: And I think it's inconsistent with what the character is of what else is going on.
Aanenson: Okay, I just wanted those for the record so we can forward those...
Blackowiak: Okay, thank you.
Slagle: Yes, if I can just throw out my thought is the neighborhood business district zoning
signage, you know especially on a highway would not have been a, would be the forceful
consideration. It would be the consideration towards the homes, the residents...
Feik: Yes, that's what I would say. So that's my motion.
Blackowiak: Okay. There's been a motion. Is there a second?
Slagle: Second.
Feik moved, Slagle seconded that the Planning Commission recommends the City Council
approve the request for a 3 foot variance for the construction of an 8 foot monument sign.
Feik, Slagle and Blackowiak voted in favor, Sacchet, Sidney and Claybaugh voted against,
and Lillehaug abstained. The motion failed with a vote of 3-3-1.
Blackowiak: Okay the motion is split 3-3 and can we just forward it onto City Council as it is?
Okay, thank you. I need another motion please for the conditional use permit.
Sacchet: Yeah Madam Chair, I make the motion that the Planning Commission recommends
approval for the conditional use permit of the LED display within a monument ground low profile
sign.
Blackowiak: And did you have any conditions to add, maybe about community events?
Sacchet: No, I leave that open ended. That's in good hands.
Blackowiak: Alright thank you, a motion. Is there a second?
Feik: Second.
Sacchet moved, Feik seconded that the Planning Commission recommends the City Council
approve a Conditional Use Permit for the LED display within a monument ground low
profile sign. All voted in favor, except Lillehaug who abstained, and the motion carried
with a vote of 6-0-1.
Blackowiak: Motion carries and I'll just say for the record that Commissioner Lillehaug
abstained on both of those votes due to his membership in the American Legion. This item will
go to the City Council on?
A1-Jaff: December 9th.
Blackowiak: Wow, that's way out there. I thought maybe we, 2003. Wow. December 9th.
Aanenson: 2002. That's the wrong.
Blackowiak: It is December, okay. It's not, oh it's not February?
Aanenson: No.
Blackowiak: So it's December 9th, 2002. Okay. Because I looked at that and thought wow,
that's okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay I've been requested that we take a 5
minute recess so we'll take a quick 5 minute recess and we'll be right back.