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1g Approval of Minutes City Council Work Session - November 12, 2002 The City Council recessed the work session at 6:55 p.m. for the regular City Council meeting. The work session was reconvened at 7:05 p.m. PARK AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT. Todd Hoffman gave the power point presentation on the Park and Recreation Department's budget request. The council discussed ways of generating revenue such as rental of meeting rooms at the Recreation Center, wedding receptions, and the skate park. Eliminating 7 neighborhood ice rinks was discussed as a way of saving money in the park maintenance budget. Mayor Jansen discussed giving staff outcomes, using the key financial strategies, and specific policies and leaving it up to staff to figure out ways to save money in the budget. Councilman Boyle was in favor of giving staff specific dollar amounts and letting staff come back with their recommendations for cuts. Councilman Peterson thought the City Council was going to be given an overall presentation and then the council would come back with specifics. Councilman Ayotte wanted more specifics on the park maintenance budget. Bruce DeJong stated the city could not make significant cuts in the budget without cutting a position, which then relates to service levels. The City Council discussed assessments to the downtown businesses for maintenance in downtown, or asking the businesses to do their own maintenance. Mayor Jansen asked staff to investigate what other cities do regarding downtown maintenance issues. The City Council asked that the Park and Recreation Commission review policies on neighborhood parks, tennis court maintenance with outcome of cost savings and to prioritize services. There was also discussion between the pros and cons of private parks versus public. ADMINISTRATION. Justin Miller gave the power point presentation for the Administration Department. The City Council discussed possible means to generate revenues such as increasing animal licenses, charging for vehicle lock-out's, re-broadcasting of school events. Councilman Peterson asked about wage and benefit issues for city employees. MIS. Richard Rice gave the power point presentation for the MIS department. FINANCE. Bruce DeJong gave the power point presentation for the Finance Department. Councilman Peterson asked about possible cuts. Bruce DeJong stated the only possibility would be not to hire a new employee, which the finance department needs to meet the accounting requirements mandated by the State. Councilman Boyle asked if there were any way to reduce contractual services. Councilman Peterson asked about the finance software purchase, if that could be delayed for another year. The City Council then discussed the meeting schedule for the remainder of budget discussions. Councilman Peterson stated he wanted to see 10 percent cuts from all departments and then the City Council will cover line items at that point. Councilman Ayotte wanted an order of merit for services to the public and then make the tough decisions at that point. Councilman Labatt wanted to look at revenue generation, and requested a copy of the revised budget with line item assessment. Mayor Jansen argued in favor of outcomes versus line item discussion and that outcomes would affect line items. Councilman Peterson was expecting to see 10 percent service level cuts from all department. Councilman Ayotte stated if the council is interested in reducing City Council Work Session - November 12, 2002 taxes, they should be looking to cut discretionary items. There was consensus from the City Council members to request budget reductions from the Park and Recreation Department. Todd Gerhardt stated that staff would prepare a packet of proposed budget cuts and new dollar figures. Mayor Jansen adjourned the work session meeting at 9:45 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 3 _ ~ City Council Meeting - November 12, 2002 Todd Gerhardt: Nope. We've had good luck with the weather on the library making good progress and it's looking like a building. Councilman Boyle: Anything on the bowling alley? Todd Gerhardt: Hope to have a purchase agreement to you on the 25~h. Councilman Boyle: Excellent. Mayor Jansen: Great. Okay. Has this even been a minute? Okay. That was everything on the agenda. If I could have a. Councilman Labatt: Nice job. Quick meeting tonight Mayor. Mayor Jansen: If I could have a motion to adjourn please. Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The City Council meeting was adjourned at 7:02 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Deb Campbell: Okay. Franks: Jack, we'll start down on your end. Spizale: There's no tennis courts in that area at all? Deb Campbell: There's no tennis courts south of 7, north of 5, anywhere or west of, that I'm aware of, west of Galpin. You know just that whole area. There's some at MMW. There's two courts there but obviously they're used during school and that, and that's not really in biking distance at all from our neighborhood, or that whole area. Franks: Just for information sake, the master plan for Roundhouse Park does call for. Hoffman: It includes a. Franks: It includes a tennis pad. Hoffman: Pad. Double tennis right here. Just to the west of the parking lot off of Kings Road. Franks: So when the master plan for the park was approved, it included generally speaking. Part of the philosophy of the commission and the park department has been not necessarily to include tennis courts in what we consider a neighborhood park. But Roundhouse Park is one of those different kinds of parks, neighborhood parks, due to it's geographic isolation from other city... Deb Campbell: Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Franks: And so it's really the only recreation amenity area that services that whole western Minnewashta side so we certainly have talked about it and considered that it would, I think the consensus, informal consensus of the commission is that tennis courts at that location is probably a good idea. Although Todd we've not formally acted on, and it's not currently included in the 5 year CIP. Hoffman: No. Just recommended. Franks: So I just wanted to give you that piece of information background. We'll continue, if there's any questions front commission. Spizale: Okay, no other questions. Happe: Just one quick question or point. There's, so from your house there's no tennis courts that are within biking access that you don't have to cross a highway or an interstate to get to? Deb Campbell: Correct, and I mean we'd be happy to bike a mile or two or whatever but there is nothing. There are some in, I guess that's Shorewood, but that's across 7 and there's no way that, so we can drive up there but there's no easy way to cross. Happe: Okay. I have no further questions. O'Shea: I don't have any. Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Franks: Todd, just a question for you quick. About what is the cost of completing that pad for the tennis court, including the fencing that would have to go along with it? Hoffman: I called for an estimate, right around $40,000. Rough estimate. Two tennis courts and then basketball hoops that would go along with that for the dual use. Franks: Right. You know the one thing that I have a question about, and maybe you have a feel for this, I mean you've been talking with the neighbors. Generally speaking tennis as a recreational activity's been on the decline since, it's kind of peaked out. We've noticed some decline in the use of the other tennis courts. Although philosophically I think that it' s probably be a good idea to locate them in a park, part of our concern I think is investing those dollars into that kind of amenity and what kind of use are we going to get back. And so maybe you can give us some feedback for us on that. Deb Campbell: Well I can tell you the ones at North Lotus are, they were used quite a bit. I mean we were over there quite a lot and we' ve had, you know there were a lot of times there were people over there akeady so you know we had the second court or they were full or whatever. So I know those are used pretty frequently. I guess all I can tell you is the neighborhood feedback I have, there's some townhouses kind of on the southwest corner of Minnewashta there and there's some older people in there that they were just really thrilled about this because, they have to drive over to play tennis at, I don't .know, Crosstown or one of the clubs and you know, more retked people that are, they'd love to go out and play. And lots of kids. Lots of families and in fact my daughter's playing tennis at MMW this year. Lots of kids, and I don't know, I think they'd be interested in it. You know all I can do is say well who've I've talked to and spread the word around and everyone seems excited. I guess I don't know how to respond to your, you know that there's a decline in tennis. Maybe that's true but I still think in that area there's enough of a demand, enough of a need. Franks: Okay, thank you. Kelly: I don't have anything. Atkins: I just have a comment that you and your neighbors have done a really good job in making your voices heard about this. Deb Campbell: Thank you and maybe that's one question I have. Is there anything else I can do I mean other than come here and express our desires? Is there anything else I can be doing or is this pretty much the forum and as I laid it in front of you? Franks: Well I think the next step for us would be to consider whether this is an item that we want formally on the agenda. Since we're coming up on the winter schedule, as far as. Hoffman: You'll be looking at your 5 year CIP this winter. Franks: The 5 year CIP this winter, okay. Hoffman: Capital hnprovement Program for 5 years. Franks: You hate jargon don't you? CF, we throw it around and. Deb Campbell: That's alright, as long as you explain what it is. Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Hoffman: And you're absolutely right about the similarities between North Lotus and Roundhouse. They're both neighborhood parks which the city has treated and the commission has treated more similar to a community park. Both of them are isolated on the other side of the lakes and so they attempted to acquire sufficient land to accommodate a larger variety of uses, much more typical that you'd see in community parks so that's why you see it in the plan. You experienced that at North Lotus you're seeing similar activities here. Deb Campbell: Okay. Franks: Todd, at the time when it's appropriate we'd like to see this come up on an agenda for us to consider formally. Hoffman: You bet. Franks: And we'll make sure that everyone, will they receive a mailing? People who have sent in the e-mails? Do you still have record of that? Hoffman: Sure do. Franks: Can we make sure that a mailing goes out to those people, and of course to you Deb too as well. Happe: Hopefully too, Commissioner Franks we're noting the interest in tennis facilities as we take a look at components of a potential conmmnity center as well. Franks: Yeah, we don't 1,mow exactly what those sites would be yet so. Hoffman: Great. Deb Campbell: Okay2 Thank you. Franks: Thank you for coming today. Are there any other presentations from the audience? On an item that's not currently on the; agenda. Alrighty, then we'lt get to it. Ted Koltes: Okay. I'm here for the long haul. Hoffman: Next item. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Franks: Well really the next item is the approval of the minutes dated September 24, 2002. Are there any commissioners with co~-rections or changes to the minutes as presented to us? AtNns: There's a few places where I'm quoted as saying some things that I didn't say. Franks: Do you want to state your name? This is, and so when they listen to the tape they know who to make the changes with. AtNns: Yeah, okay. This is Paula Atkins speaking now. If I remember I will. But it's nothing important. Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Franks: No. What are the? Atkins: Oh, I think it was the lady from the Rec Center. Franks: Susan. Atkins: Yeah. Made a comment about the, when we were talking about the invitations and she said she'd turn the ones that were already printed up into time cards. Because they had to be re- printed. That's the only thing I noticed. Franks: Okay. Thank you Paula. Anything else? Any other commissioners? No? Seeing none then, is there a motion to approve the minutes as amended? Spizale moved, O'Shea seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission dated September 24, 2002 as amended on pages 7 and 8, changing the name of Atkins to Marek. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ESTABLISH 2002/03 ICE SKATING AND HOCKEY RINK PROGRAM. Hoffman: I' 11 turn it over to Jerry, our Recreation Superintendent. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks and the rest of the commission. As the weather is turning colder recently here, we're starting to think about our upcoming ice for the 2002-2003 winter season. Approximately, we'll have the rinks open from approximately December 14th to about February 16th, really depending on the weather. Typically it's around the Christmas holiday when the rinks are open on normal years. Last year we didn't have a normal year. We weren't open all that much last year, really because of the warm weather. So getting those going. The warming houses again will be open again Monday through Friday, 4:00 to 9:00. Saturday, 10:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. and Sundays from 1:00 to 7:00. Again we'll have warming houses, a permanent warming house at the Recreation Center and portable warming houses at City Center Park, North Lotus and Roundhouse parks. Last year, as you recall, we did have some warm weather and really didn't begin flooding until the day after Christmas last year. With really some unseasonably warm temperatures we weren't really open all that much. I think 26 days or approximately we were open last year. It wasn't very much but with that warm weather we had to make some decisions within our department not to flood certain areas, and we really tried to concentrate our efforts on kind of the main areas. The warming house areas of kind of what we've done in the past based on higher numbers at those areas. We did kind of look at some of the areas, the neighborhood kind of park situations. You know the Meadow Green, Chan Hills, Pheasant Hills, some of those types of areas. It really wasn't conducive to really put together really a full fledged effort and coordinating and flood those and waste resources and times that we really weren't going to get fully utilized with some of the past summers that we've seen and also because of the warm weather. So we decided not to do those as we have in the past. Therefore we are here tonight to talk about those neighborhood parks and kind of what we'd like to do here for the future. We did do again kind of re-assessing the situation. There really was, it seemed to make sense to staff to really kind of focus our energies again on our warming house areas where we have them staffed. We have lights in most the situations and warming houses. In the past if you look at some of the numbers that we've, of the park maintenance personnel have kind of gathered through the 2000-2001 skating season, you can see a lot of the neighborhood park settings did not get a lot of use. Of course this isn't 100 percent accurate but it gives us, it's kind of something to gauge on. This is kind of more of a formal information that we have, or 5 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 submitted from our park superintendent and they also then kind of through the years have kind of noticed that and have kind of communicated that to us at City Hall that a lot of these areas have not been receiving a lot of use through the years here so we're here tonight to really talk about the situations and approve number one, obviously our warming house areas. And then also to approve that as a whole and not include the neighborhood situations. So it's staffs recommendation that the warming house locations be maintained at the Chanhassen Recreation Center, City Center Park, Roundhouse Park and North Lotus Lake Park for the upcoming season. Rinks proposed for these locations will include two hockey rinks and one pleasure rink at the Rec Center, one hockey rink and one pleasure at City Center Park, one hockey rink and one pleasure rink at North Lotus Lake Park, and one pleasure rink at Roundhouse. This does total, this does have a total of 8 skating surfaces, 4 hockey and 4 pleasure rinks at all those locations combined. Staff also recommends that the pleasure rinks at Minnewashta Heights, Pheasant Hills, Carver Beach, Meadow Green, Rice Marsh, Sunset Ridge Park and Chanhassen Hills not be maintained for the upcoming season. This totals '7 or 8 of which the Chanhassen Hills Park is really the only one that currently has a light. Kind of an operation where we've had a warming house there in the past with low numbers, the Park and Rec Commission really elected last year to take that warming house out of it's location and just kind of maintain it at that time as a neighborhood park before the weather kind of took care of that last year. So we have had some peopIe e-mail, and Mr. Ted Kottes is with us here tonight to kind of represent himself as well as his neighbors in support or' re-instating and talk to the commission tonight about the Pheasant Hills Park area. We did receive some 3 e-mails tonight after 5:00 that I printed out and I gave them to you, in front Of you, there's a copy for everybody there. The ones that I received. And they're all in support of the re-establishing the skating rink at Pheasant Hills so, at this time I'll entertain any questions from the commission. Franks: Alright, thank you Jerry. Mr. Koltes, if you just hang on for a minute and we'll just pepper JetTy with some questions, and see if we can ask some that he can't answer. Let's start down with Paula this time. Paula, what do you have for Jerry? Atkins: Maybe you mentioned this when you started but I'm wondering how you gauge the use? How did you figure out what the numbers were at the places that don't have warming houses? Did you just. Ruegemer: What we've done in the past really is, the park maintenance personnel really have communicated that to us in the past. We have more of a, I guess a formula to document from the 2000-2001 season. That's in your packet. If you look on, it's actually this document right here. That kind of had a, that was from the 2000-2001 season. Obviously last year we didn't have a rink there so this is kind of the last I guess numbers that we have kind of indicating that the participation numbers at those locations. So as you can kind of look on the left column, those are the number of times that were checked, the park, and then kind of the use, and they rated that heavy, light or no use with the corresponding numbers in the right hand columns. Hoffman: That's when they go to flood on a daily or an every other day basis and then they mark down, these outside rinks, they typically, there's not been warm weather or they can anticipate there's no heavy use and they don't have to go back perhaps every 3 or 4 days. And then when they' re there they check off on their clipboard what they observe as far as the use from the skate marks. When you're sitting up in that truck you can have a very clear observation of what has occurred in that sheet of ice in the past. Happe: So they're not counting, they're not looking at bodies. They're actually looking at the wear and tear on the ice and seeing how much, okay. Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Atkins: This is from 2000-2001. Is there one from, last year was just a miserable year for ice. Hoffman: We only flooded the main community parks so the numbers are body counts from the skating rink attendants. Atkins: That's all for me. Kelly: I think my only question may have been asked already. I was wondering if there is a low usage park and you save cost by not maintaining that as often as you do a high usage park? So it would be some. Hoffman: More maintenance goes into the high use areas than go into the low use areas. Kelly: Alright. That was all that I had. Franks: Commissioner Kelly. Jerry, I have some questions for you. I'm looking at the figures as far as the maintenance cost, staff time for 2001-2002 and then also for 2000-2001. And those were both years that we had all of the neighborhood skating rinks on line, is that correct? Ruegemer: 2001 and 2002 did not include many of the neighborhood rinks as we did in 2000 and 2001. Basically 2001 and 2002 included kind of the general warming house areas. So that was the, as you can see the reduction in cost. Franks: Okay. So by removing these neighborhood rinks, we basically cut the labor costs in half. That' s what I' m saying. Kelly: Well, if I can interrupt. The days open too are much different between 2001 and 2002. Ruegemer: That's correct. We maintained our heavy use areas quite a bit less than we have in the past as well because of the number of days that we were open. Franks: Okay. Kelly: I think a better metric to look at is the operation cost per. Franks: Right, per day. And there again we're still seeing a reduction. Kelly: You see about a $200 reduction so it's, so maybe a 50 percent increase having those neighborhood parks open as opposed to a 100 percent. Franks: The only other thing Jerry that I'm wondering if you considered in siting the skating rinks is, the coverage. There's no doubt that there's a little hole that appears up in the Pheasant Hills area. But there's also a hole that pops up south of Highway 5 as well. And that's an area of expanding population for the city too. There we go. Hoffman: Sites 2 and 3 are the central located facilities at maybe community parks. 1 and 4 are the two parks we just talked about during the previous conversation that are isolated neighborhood parks. So transportation wise, the majority of the residents in the city have fairly good access to these locations. If you want to start looking at geographic location is one thing. If you're a resident in Chan Hills and it's cold and you want to go outdoor skating, you may choose 7 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 to go to the Rec Center before you would go to the neighborhood because it has a warming house and so there's other things that go into that. It's been staff's philosophy that these sites with lights and warming houses are the most attractive and then there's always an element of, if it's just down the street and you can, and it doesn't have a warming house, that's pretty convenient as well because your kids can run down there. Franks: That didn't seem to pan out at Chan Hills though with the light and a warming house that was hardly ever used. Hoffman: Yes. And so the Pheasant Hill, or excuse me Chanhassen Hills that Rod just talked about, we attempted to ramp things up to try to make that a viable location. Added the light as a part of the '97 referendum. A little skating rink light. It's not a light like you'd see at the Rec Center or City Center. It's just a small light and a warming house, but our numbers were just dismal down there. Ruegemer: Yeah, significantly lower than the rest of the sites. Hoffman: So we pulled the warming house and now we it may be pulled altogether. Franks: Yeah, go ahead. Kelly: Down in that area, would Bandimere be a better alternative because it's more a high profile park as opposed to Chanhassen Hills? I mean it is a con~munity property. Has ample parking and people are more familiar with that park because of the soccer fields and softball fields. Hoffman: The commission talked about that as a part of the design process, but it was included in that master plan for Bandimere Park. The conversation at the time was if that ever began a desire, we would put up portable hockey rink boards in the parking lots so you would pull in portable hockey rink during pours, and then you have a lighting issue. If you have lighting, you'd have to, really it would have to be years out for that because there's no power available there for ... so it was left off of the... Franks: There's not power available that could be? Hoffman: There's power there but you would have to go and re-wire in power right there... Franks: Well that's something that I think we will continue to need to consider because that's exactly where I was going was that seems like a prime spot to service the growing population in the southern, south of Highway 5 Chanhassen community at a cormnunity park. It's got power. It's got recognition. It's got facilities. Soon we'll have a park shelter that's being proposed is that's, for 2003 now. I think it' s going to be important to consider the design of the park shelter, the multi-use as a warming house so power requirements and situations be such that you can utilize it for that. Hoffman: We'll have to study that whole situation. Franks: Right, because the parking lot's not really sitting where the. Happe: ... Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Hoffman: Not as close as you'd like. Franks: No. Hoffman: And I don't think the commission in all honesty has put hockey boards and ice on. Franks: Not on our grass. Hoffman: Soccer fields. Franks: No, no. Not going on the grass. Alright. Hoffman: It's a good study for this coming year. Franks: Amy. O'Shea: I have several questions Jerry. What's the main driver? Is it financial that you're looking at this? Is it lack of use? Ruegemer: I think all of the above. I think you really look at, I think number one, you look at how many resources we put into you know flooding, maintaining, and you can see when you look at the number of staff house and the over time pay and a lot of that kind of thing, it seems to be a lot of work for little use. And if you look at the per rink per cost and a lot of those types of, you know a lot of it is a financial. Our budgets are getting tight. We need to really look at and evaluate programs that aren't working and if they're not really working that great, we need to re- evaluate that and make some decisions. O'Shea: With that being said then, what is your, I'm assuming this is in the 2003 budget. With them all open. Ruegemer: Correct. O'Shea: How much are you going to save? How much would you save? Ruegemer: Our budget, well I don't know if I can give you a hard number tonight but our budgets include...there's a lot of variables that go into that. I can't give you a hard number on that, but a lot of that really depends on, we were kind of getting back to Commissioner Kelly's comments. It's like we were open 60 to 80 days a year before and 20 to 30 last year so really it's hard to quantify. O' Shea: What I'm getting at is, you know a lot of these might be perceived fixed costs that you'll incur anyway. Hoffman: Correct. Staff is there, so the staff is either going to be flooding, there's going to be some overtime savings and overtime costs. Staff is still going to be there. They're either flooding rinks, which they're doing today, or they're doing something else and that's the question. If they don't flood these rinks is what they're going to be doing with that time, is that more productive to the city and to the citizens than what they're doing flooding these rinks. Franks: In time Jerry, could you just fill in, since we have a number of new commissioners, exactly what the park maintenance staff is doing during the winter. 9 Park and Rec Cormnission - October 22, 2002 Hoffman: Flooding rinks and plowing trails and maintaining, working at the shop. Making soccer goals and other things so they've got limited time. Our work list is about 300 items and growing and I have items on our work list for Dean Schmieg that I've had on there for 10 years so there's not a lack of work for our park maintenance division. O'Shea: That's not the purpose of my question. I'm not saying that they're not going to have anything to do. The point that I'm getting at is, if it's driven by financial as one, then I would assume we'd see a significant financial savings. If that was one of the drivers and I as a commissioner would want to ~know how much that is going to be. If we're talking that we're not going to see a savings, then I think we're affecting the neighborhoods in a negative way. If we're not going to see, if it's driven by financial reasons. So I would need a sound, or I'd need to know this is what we're going to save, and maybe figure out what it costs per day so if you're not going to flood 7, you ~know regardless if we're open 10 or 15, 20, 30 skate days. You know, how much would we save per day by not flooding 7 rinks. I need to know that. Lack of use, you know what is lack of use? Is it for the neighbors to know, is 200 individuals using it a season, given a normal season, and whatever the normal season is. What is lack of use? You know is it 400? Is it 300? Because we may have lack of use in some of our premiere parks. I'm not saying we do but I think the neighbors have a right to know what is lack of use. Because I think it's a service that I think a lot of people really do enjoy, and I'm also won'ied or concerned the way the numbers are gathered. I don't think it's a fair objective way to know. Hoffinan: Which numbers? O'Shea: The usage numbers. And again this might be naYve because I don't maintain a rink so maybe you really can tell the use. I know on a hockey you can because of all the stopping. On a skating rink I'm assuming it doesn't take as much wear as a hockey rink. It might be difficult to really know, because I know I asked Jen'y ahead of the meeting, you know they're flooding at times where the kids aren't going to be there, so bodies aren't going 'to be there and then you clarified this for me that you can tell by the usage, but I'm still, I don't feel comfortable saying yes we should by the inforn~ation I've been given. I'd want a better calculation on numbers so looking at this and I don't know, I think the neighbors should be, unless you know the amount of money you're going to save, I think the neighbors should know that we need the numbers up to this or not this year but the following year we will have to cut back because we need to see a minimum skaters out such and such use in the season, given that it's a naturally normal season. And I just think that's the fairness to the neighbors to do that. And then they have something to, you know if they really want to keep it, they'd better get out there and use it and show that they want to use it. And then if the numbers aren't there, then to me that's a fair decision on that point. But I'm afraid that when we visit this in the spring, we won't see that much savings financially, unless you can show that to us. Hoffrnan: No, I want to make sure that we're talking the same. There's going to be some financial savings where we won't spend money for overtime. The rest of the savings will be a transfer of time to other activities and so instead of flooding for 80 or 90 or 100 hours, they'll be doing other things in the park. Other things, other activities. And then, so but we can quantify that and you know that's, you know 7,000, 8,000, 12,000, 15,000. It's a variable number depending on how much time we're putting into how many rinks. There's a wide variable there on that number, but these rinks cost generally $3,000 to $7,000 per rink, again depending on location so if you take that and average it out over these 7 rinks we're talking some significant dollars, and that's the only reason staff is bringing this back. If these were easy to put in and did not cost a good deal of money, we wouldn't be here talking about it today. We would say let's go ahead and let's put them in and let them get what little use they get and it's not that big a deal. 10 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 And then on the usage, the numbers you have today are the best numbers that we can give you. And so if we want to make a decision, we have to make a decision off of those numbers. Where we have to go through an entire skate cycle and attempt to find a better way of quantifying that use, which I don't know that we could come up with. These are rinks that are spread across the community. There's no efficient or effective way that we could have somebody there to do the head count on X, unless we really want to go into an in depth program and we could hire somebody to do that. When these folks have flooded these rinks, some of them for 20 or 30 years. When they're in a truck on top of that sheet of ice, you can tell the skate marks and so, we came up with that light, medium, heavy and it's not, it's obviously there's some, you know it's an arbitrary system but those were the best numbers that we have today and if you look at, I started looking at some of the numbers. I think one has 0-0-0. O-Heavy, O-Medium and then 11 or 12 Lights, so this is telling us that there's not a lot of activity and that's been quantified, not by numbers but by observations for a great number of years. There is some history here, Minnewashta was the only, and we talked about this before the meeting started. Minnewashta Heights has been the only rink which the past commission has taken out of flooding, and then if you recall, if anybody was here. Rod, maybe you were around. The neighborhood came in and said you kmow we want that rink back and the commission said, we're going to start flooding that rink again so it went back in. But other than that, this is a new adventure that we're talking about here. We're adding rinks at locations like the Roundhouse and North Lotus and the Rec Center and these other rinks just tend to just, you know these maintenance people they go we're out here flooding and, to gear these rinks up they flood all night for about a week. They flood around the clock, around the clock and that's why you see those costs are high on that year, last year when we only had 27 operating days, but the year before I think it was February 20th and we had 70, 80 some operating days so then your costs per day go down because you have those operating days. So I hope that helps but those are great questions. O'Shea: Just two more questions. If they were to continue to flood those, what projects wouldn't get done then? Because you said it would just, what projects wouldn't get done if they kept those ice skating rinks open? - . Hoffman: Again they would get to plowing the trails earlier. There's a variety of things that they do all winter long so it's just, it goes to other work and if you want those other lists of items, I can certainly provide that to you but they're making goals. They're plowing rinks. They're doing other outside maintenance. Preparing for February Festival. Doing other things that are just day to day operations to the park crews. And then also they're cutting down on overtime hours because they're not going to be out there as much for those overtime hours. O'Shea: Okay. And one more, just a, I know the hockey association uses the rinks, the hockey rinks a lot. Do they pay a fee? Ruegemer: No they do not. O'Shea: Is there a reason? Ruegemer: It hasn't been our policies or practice to charge athletic associations for the use of our facilities. And there's two hockey associations. Chan/Chaska Hockey and then Tonka, Minnetonka Hockey. O'Shea: Okay, that's all I had. 11 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Happe: I don't -know, I think part of the thought process and it may have been because a lot of those skaters are Chanhassen taxpayers, already they've already paid for the facility so we have apparently elected a policy to tack an additional fee onto that as they believe that they've already paid for some of those facilities. In some previous discussions that I had, and Todd I think it's relatively consistent with what you said, I heard a number thrown around of between $4,000 to $5,000 is maybe a good benchmark for what it might cost, just on an average to have one of these neighborhood parks flooded, re-flooded nightly, if not every other night, and maintained through the year. So if you use a benchmark of $5,000 times the 7 neighborhood parks we're talking about, you are looking at a dollar amount that's going to be plus or minus in the $35,000 range. In addition, I think we need to remember that these are neighborhood parks. Those are not community parks. This lists of 7 parks dates back to some years. Franks: Dave, can I jump in for a minute2 What I'd like to do is just spend some time directing questions for Jerry, and then we'll hear from the audience and then we'll have some time to bring it back to the commission to make our summary statements. Happe: Sure. Jerry, last year was there additional outcries for, with the shorter season that we had, and granted the warmer season, was there a lot of community feedback from the parks that weren't flooded last year? Ruegemer: We did hear back fi'om some areas that weren't flooded last year and. and of course we did receive some phone calls on that certainly. Happe: Okay. And this cash that is spent for the parks, what pocket of money does that, that comes out of the general fund or that comes out of the budgeted fund from park and rec, or where does that money come from? Ruegemer: General fund. Happe: Okay. And if we do elect to continue flooding neighborhood parks versus community parks, is it safe to assume that there will be additional neighborhoods, or additional locations that are not on this list of '7 that would like their neighborhoods to be considered for a neighborhood park as well? Ruegemer: That's always a possibility. This is, as we look at the rinks that have been kind of identified, those have been kind of our mainstay or parks that we have flooded in the past. As new parks come on line at that meeting, requested by the neighborhoods in the future but I would anticipate a lot of the inquiries on new skating rinks. Happe: Okay, as far as questions that's all I have. Thanks Jerry. Franks: Can I jump in on the question? The amount of calls that you received about the skating rinks, was that equal to calls about Phase II playground equipment or half court basketball or? Ruegemer: You know I think a lot of calls that we received last winter really inquiry type of phone calls. You know it just wasn't really a typical season last year. I think they were really more like you know is our rink going in? It's not going in? It's January 1~t, 2nd, 10~, whatever it was, is the rink going in and at that time we didn't inform them that it was not. As far as how many calls I received versus other types of inquiries. Franks: Commissioner Spizale. 12 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Spizale: Probably just one. I think most have been answered already being the last one but probably the only thing we really provide outside in our parks in the wintertime would be skating, right? Just a thought. Okay. That's all I've got. Franks: Well if there's no further questions for Jerry. Ted Koltes: I'm the audience. Franks: You're the audience. Why don't you come up to the podium and state your name and address for the record. We are really interested to hear what you have to say. Ted Koltes: My name's Ted Koltes. I live at 1731 Wood Duck Circle, which literally backs right up to Pheasant Hills Park. My family and I have lived in Chanhassen now for the past 7 years, and I come tonight to speak on behalf of my neighborhood. We recently, had a block party at which time we were able to take kind of an informal poll of a vast array of people from different age groups, different ages of children about the skating rink. The neighborhood ice surface there at Pheasant Hills Park. And what I came to find, what we've come to find is that there was some misunderstandings about last year. Many people assumed that because of the unseasonably warm winter that we had last year, that that was the reason for the lack of the ice and when they came to understand that it was no. It was indeed cut out based on lack of use, unanimously, of all the people that we spoke with, there was not one who said that they weren't interested in bringing the ice back. I'm pleased to see that in addition to my inquiries and contact with Jerry and Todd, that 3 of my other neighbors have forwarded correspondence regarding this issue also, and I'd just like to reiterate a couple points. I don't look to debate the use studies from 2 years ago. In the last 2 to 3 years there's been tremendous turnover in our neighborhood and the adjoining neighborhoods. Bringing in new families. We're recycling and bringing in lots and lots of new kids. In fact in the cul-de-sac that we live in, there are 6 children under the age of 8 who live in that area who 2 years ago may not have been of skating age. The second point I would make-is, in watching my 4 year old skate, as you ~know I'll bring him over to the Chaska Community Center to skate even in the summer, he doesn't leave skate marks. He's not heavy enough. When it's really cold outside, there's, he's even less apt to leave skate marks. You know he just doesn't have the weight to leave a mark in the ice. We're talking about kids that are now of age to skate, who 2 years ago may not have been. So like I said, I'm pleased to see that you know neighbors on both sides have also made their voices heard on this. We're very much in favor of re-instating the ice program at Pheasant Hills Park. I can guarantee you it would be used this year. I'd be out there almost daily with my two kids. I know that Dan and Kurt on either side of me with their combined 4 children would be also. I understand that we're in a time of looking to cut budgets but as Jack had mentioned, that's really what the park stands to offer us in the winter is skating. And we're just very much in favor of bringing this ice surface back. It would be used. I guess I don't know how many different ways I can put that. We just really want ice so, you know I, personal story. David knows this well. Both of Class of '88 at Benilde and I played hockey all my years there but I just didn't start when I was in high school. I started when I was 4 or 5 years old and I used to spend my entire days down at the ice rink and it gave me a productive, useful way to spend my time in the winters. Frankly, that's what made winter bearable for me was hockey and skating. Otherwise it's just cold, and when we bought our home, and we just moved into the Pheasant Hills area here at the end of August, that was one of the alluring things. Not only the park in the summer but also the ice surface in the winter and if any of you are familiar with this park, it's set up. I mean you look at it, it's like well, there's where an ice rink should go. I mean it's a reed area around it and a perfectly flat surface there in the middle and it just completely makes sense to have ice there. And we would just again collectively like to ask that 13 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 that park, and I can't speak on behalf of the other ones, but that park at least be re-instated. In fact, in it's absence there's a pond in the adjoining block that neighbors have taken it upon themselves to flood and maintain in the winter, just so that an ice surface would be made available to the kids so. Are there any, you know I'd. Franks: Well if you're comfortable, would you mind staying at the podium to see if any commissioners have any questions for you? Ted Koltes: I'm comfortable. I love microphones. Franks: Alright. Are there any questions for Mr. Koltes? Ruegemer: Can you just, can I have a real quick clarification note. That particular rink was not cut last year because of it was just our decision to pull rinks and cut. That rink was not flooded last year because of the warm weather so I don't ~know if that's. Ted Koltes: I can completely understand that, and that's what many of the neighbors had figured also. I mean I don't know that we had snow much before Christmas even last year so logic says that that was a reasonable choice. As I'm still shivering from being outside, I don't expect this winter to be the same. Franks: Any questions for Mr. Koltes? Happe: Two quick ones. One, so there was a pond, did the pond get some use? I mean so neighbors.., kept it... Ted Koltes: It did. In fact they brought lights down around it to keep it lit and there was actually even a hockey team as I understand that used to use it as a place to practice so. Happe: Reminds me of when we were Nds. Ted Koltes: Yeah, and you ~know I, growing up not far from here, we used to, we had a pond in our back yard and we used to do the same thing. And I don't want to weaken my point here but it was my determination that if ice wasn't brought back, I'm going to flood my back yard. I mean there's, you've got to have ice you know, and we used, we were neighbors of Todd here for 6 years and we used to come here and use this ice for my kids. I want my little man to play hockey and my little girl too. It's a scholarship sport after all so I'm very interested in them sharing in that passion as I did and still do. Happe: Second question, how are those Benilde-St. Margaret Red Knights going to do this year in hockey? Ted Koltes: Well they took first in State, as I'm sure you're quite aware last year so it's, in fact Buddha is still senior year, he was first year coach. He's still the coach there. Happe: It's good to see you again. Ted Koltes: Yeah, great to see you again. Hoffman: The pond there has a long history. That pond was the first flooded surface in the Pheasant Hill neighborhood. Brought to the park commission probably a dozen years ago and the 14 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 commission agreed to maintain the pond as an ice surface. And so the city crews would go down there and there was a neighbor that took the lights across the street from his house and plugged it into his extension cords and put the lights up, and then we plowed the surface and flooded the surface out on the ice. That all changed when there was a period of time when we could not get there to maintain the sheet of ice and so a local contractor brought the Bobcat out and was scrapping the surface of the ice, which was probably about this thick, and it fell through at the edge. It just sheared off the ice. The way the Bobcat was in sufficient enough to force the ice pack down into the mud and crack it, and he lost his entire Bobcat and after that, totally sucked water into the engine so, the commission said we're not going to take that risk with city equipment so they abandoned the pond, but then that's when the conversation started okay, well let's then put it over on dry land in the park so that's the history of that ice sheet there at Pheasant Hills. Ted Koltes: You know that type of diligence, you know to create that type of an ice surface should more than demonstrate the want of our local neighborhood to have ice there. We want ice and any way we can get it, that's kind of been the point as to make it. And again, I just really want to reiterate the turnover in the neighborhood and the fact that you have so many, so many young children there who just even 2 short years ago may not have been of skating age. Any other questions? And as the last speaker had asked, I would ask the same thing, is there any more I can do to try to see this through? My neighbor Dan Seaman has talked about getting a petition going. I'd be willing to do the same thing. I mean if it comes tO physically demonstrating to you the number of people that want to have it, that's a step that we're willing to take if need be, but we'll put our money where our mouth is so to speak, and if you give us the opportunity we'll prove it to you how this park would be utilized~ Franks: Thank you for coming and speaking up to us tonight. Ted Koltes: Thanks for having me. Great to see you David. Franks: And for the update on the old alma mater. Happe: Benilde-St. Margaret's Red Knights. Ted Koltes: Yes sir. Franks: Alright. I'd like to bring this back to the commission and Commissioner Happe, since I cut you off, I want to start with you so we can finish up with your remarks. Happe: Neighborhood versus community parks. $35,000 of ballpark savings. I think that in light of the fact that there are several new neighborhoods in Chanhassen, our conversation and scope should not be limited to the 7 previous neighborhoods that have been flooded previously. I think that if we're going to open up to a community dialogue on whether or not this flooding should continue to exist in neighborhood parks, then all neighborhoods should have an opportunity to have this. That being said, I'm in support of spending community dollars for community assets, and in this case I would feel a community asset is a community park that would have access for all of our residents that end up paying this $35,000 to use that ice facility. Franks: Can you clarify that for me a little bit? Happe: Well I think if, I think by definition if they're neighborhood parks, they're going to gather that cloister of neighborhood residents, as those neighborhood parks are designed for. And 15 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 in a conmmnity park, even if you take a Bandimere Park that we were talking about as an example and say, it's a community park. It's a destination point for several neighborhoods versus being defined or designed for that particular neighborhood. Franks: So in a sense what you're suggesting is since this cost burden is being spread throughout the entire community, that these facilities more aptly be located in community park facilities as opposed to the neighborhood parks. Happe: That's correct. That's correct. Franks: Thanks. Okay. Anything else? Happe: That's it for me. Thanks. Franks: Conm~issioner Spizale. Spizale: I think, I as a kid did a lot of skating on neighborhood parks, which was my big thing too. That's what I did through the winter. I would hate to see us, I would like to save some money by not spraying some of the parks that aren't used at all, or maybe re-assessing some of those parks, but I would I think, it's probably too drastic. We should be., take another look at it. I think it's the one thing we offer in the winter time, as I mentioned before. I would have to say that it's a little bit too drastic, be my feeling. That's about it. Franks: Jack, can I ask a question? Spizale: Yeah. Franks: When you say that you want to take another look at it, what do you have in mind by that? Spizate: Well I think as we kind of take a look at this usage thing, you know possibly the parks that have the lowest amount of usage, maybe we should cut off let's say 3 of those instead of 7. Franks: Okay do you have, and when you look at the usage from 2001, 2000, 2001, 2002, what are your ideas there, or have you considered that? Spizale: I haven't had a chance to really go through that, but maybe 7 is too drastic. Maybe it should be half of that. I'd love to save the money too. And maybe we should just cut out half those. Take another look at it next year and see what kind of use in a good year we do get. Happe: If we cut off half, that would likely include Pheasant Hills that Mr. Koltes just spoke about. Spizale: It might. Hoffman: Yeah, the ranking is the lowest use is Meadow Green, then Pheasant Hills, then Rice Marsh, then Carver Beach. Atkins: Aren't Carver Beach and Meadow Green fairly close to each other? Hoffman: Yep. 16 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Atkins: I mean for sure one of those could go. Happe: Which two were those Paula? Atkins: Carver Beach and Meadow Green are quite close. Same general area. Hoffman: One of the quirks here is that Meadow Green happens to be in one of highest density areas and it gets the most limited use. Franks: Which is almost a community park in a sense. Almost. Hoffman: But staff has always felt that it's close enough to the warming house at City Center that people make the drive. Jack, when you skated as a kid, was it a hockey rink? Did it have lights and warming house? Spizale: It had both but I mean... I don't think we'd want much further than that. Hoffman: Because that's an image that a lot of staff has maintained as well is that people grew up with these rinks in the winter, but by and large the model was hockey rink with lights, boards and a .warming house because the parent will allow a child to walk a distance if they know they have a warming house where there's an attendant, some friends, lights. We have this difficulty of should we pursue this program and enlarge it and put lights in, and then these neighborhood parks, lights are not as popular as you'd like to imagine. And then just keep in the back of your mind, Roundhouse Park does include a spot for a hockey rink and lights. That conversation has not been played out and those people are aware that that is on the master plan. They haven't been asking for it for the past half a dozen years. Spizale: I'm done. Franks: Okay, thank you. Comnfissioner O'Shea. O'Shea: Yeah, I think the driver that I heard Jerry say is financial and usage, and I don't see some figures of either. I don't see a savings of $35,000. I see it being transferred to another department and that was unclear what it will be...so I don't see that the city's going to save $35,000. And I think the neighbors have one, I think they were, they'd be shocked if they all of a sudden they weren't flooding if it was a normal winter season. I think the assumption that they weren't flooded was a prudent decision because it'd be a waste last year when it was melting. I think they have a right to be informed, and I know that opens up a lot of discussion but maybe that isn't bad. That they should be informed of the decision and be, and told what usage that needs to have in order to stay open the following season. I think it'd be great to see the parks used year round and the only way it seems to be used year round is ice skating and ice skating and hockey's huge here, that I think it is drastic to all of a sudden just close these. So I think the neighborhoods should be informed. They should be given how much usage those ice skating rinks need this year in order to be able to be maintained, because there are, you know we're adding all these neighborhood parks and sure, we can't flood every neighborhood park but I think we need some guidelines then that say, you know we need this amount of usage and this is what we look at and other factors. So I support that the neighbors be contacted in these areas. Told what the exact minimum usage needs to be this year, and then I think staff or whoever needs to go out there on a warm Saturday or a high usage over Christmas break and really survey these. I mean I don't I mean sitting out there and, you know that's a like an expensive amount of money in salaries but I think sound numbers because I don't feel comfortable with these numbers. That 17 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 they're sound and exact. And pick high usage over Christmas break and see what's happening there, and then if you come back and say there isn't usage, then as a commissioner I feel able to make a prudent decision on those numbers then. And oh, just one more thing. And I think, and again because I am new to this commission I may not know the philosophy but to schedule and actually have time for, and my son plays hockey so I'm not certainly opposed to hockey time at the outdoor ice, but when they're there, paying taxpayers that aren't in hockey can't use those hockey rinks, I think that should be re-visited so they pay some type of support like you do when you go to the community center. It doesn't matter if you're a member or not. You're still paying on expensive ice time and it's a very expensive thing to maintain, so and that would help them maintain neighborhood ice rinks because I think, I've been there and say well I'm a taxpaying citizens. I want to use this too. It's scheduled for hockey so. Ruegerner: Generally as a rule of thumb when we do schedule organized types of hockey in some locations that we have multiple rinks, we always keep one hockey rink for the general public and the pleasure rinks. And then for example the Rec Center is one of those types of locations. We don't do any hockey at the Roundhouse Park. The North Lotus, we have the rinks open from 4:00 to 5:30. Have organized practice then from 5:30 to 7:30, and then it's open from 7:30 to 9:00 for the general public so we have 2 hours on the rinks. City Center Park and North Lotus, so we're not totally scheduling out those rinks that taxpayers aren't having an opportunity to use those. The pleasure rinks are still open and then the hockey rinks are being used for a block of 2 hours. O'Shea: Yeah, and it was just a suggestion that I think if it's scheduled time it's different than if you strap iii and. so that's just my conmnents. Hoffman: Can you give me an estimate on what we're talNng about for hours given the hockey people2 Ruegemer: Well it's r&ally 5 nights a week in a lot of the locations, for outdoor ice. With the exception of some Fridays here and there so. Franks: Commissioner Kelly? Kelly: So to piggy back on Con-tmissioner O'Shea's comment, do you charge for soccer field usage when people have tournaments at Bandimere, or are they paying a usage for use of those soccer fields? Ruegemer: No. Kelly: Softball fields? I'm just wondering if it's uniform per sport or if it's just hockey that's getting a. Ruegemer: No. We are not, we don't charge anybody for the use of the facilities. Kelly: Just a comment I had, and this is really back of the envelope, or back of the e-mail type numbers but I was just looking at the average operation cost per day. I think that's the best statistic because it is kind of normalized for the days open, and if you look at the difference between 2000-2001, 2001-2002, it's about $215 difference and you could say okay, that's attributed to the fact that you closed several rinks weren't flooded, so divide that by 7. You get about $30, again this is very rough. Maybe $30 per day it may cost to maintain an additional rink. Per day would be per usage day, so I'm not too sure where the $35,000 came from. It 18 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 seems to be, if there's 80 days, 80 usage days, you're talking maybe $2,500 additional per rink. There may be some fixed cost that go into setting up the park. If that' s a lot, or if that' s not a lot, I don't know but I just thought it wasn't as high as I thought it was going to be. And I live in a neighborhood where I mean I wish Bandimere had a rink and a lot of people have come up to me to say hey, it'd be great just for my kids to be able to walk over to Bandimere Park and go skating. I think there's a lot to be said for walking to a skating rink as opposed to getting a whole bunch of kids in a car or van and driving you know 4 or 5 miles to go skating so I do agree with what Commissioner O'Shea said and it might be good to give these neighborhoods, put them on notice this year saying hey we've noticed in the past that these rinks aren't being utilized. If this trend continues we may be forced not to support these rinks going into future seasons, but just to cut them off now without any advanced warning, you know, may not be appropriate so those are my only comments. Franks: Okay, thank you. Commissioner Atkins. Atkins: I certainly think that we should continue with the Pheasant Hills ice rink this year. That was very heart felt and I believe that that rink will be used. I think that a couple of these really should be cut probably and have a look, and possibly then next year if we hear a lot about that, then it's time to re-look at it. Or look at it again next year, but you know it's such a variable thing with your winters around here. You just never know what's- going to happen but I can't imagine taking away all these little rinks, neighborhood rinks. I think that's not .a.good thing, and that's all. Franks: Todd or Jerry, I just want to ask a question on Commissioner Kelly's numbers, because I came up with the same thing and went through kind of the same process. And yet we're, so are we talking about the amount of staff time it takes to flood these rinks? Is that how you're coming up with the $5,000, $7,000? Hoffman: There's additional costs that are involved. It's not just salary time. A few years back the City Council wanted to do, oh budgeting by product and so ice rinks were assigned $120,000, if I recall the figure correctly, cost of ice rink program was $120,000 per year. And so you, and that included one big number in there which you need to be aware of is included cost of water, which is a product which we take out of the city water system and it's not a hard cost that anybody has to pay. So then, excuse me? Kelly: I said but it's hard water... Hoffman: And then the staff time, or part of that that you have there is modified, and then there's administrative time, the warming houses, the rink attendants, those costs that go into the entire program as well, so the cost starts to escalate when you take a look and add in all the overhead and all the other costs that are associated with the rinks. Staff time, which is just a part of that. And as we continue down the process of determining what we're going to do with the program, we can take a look at that in a couple different directions and provide those numbers. One thing I'm hearing tonight is that you may, you're not comfortable with this and you may just want to put these neighborhoods on notice. Send them a letter saying that the commission is studying this and that your rink has been known to at least receive however we want to come up with a letter, and that next year, if the low usage continues, that your rink, it would seem to put it at risk but your rink may be one of the neighborhoods in the Chanhassen ice skating program. Then we have some time to talk about how you want to qualify that because I think that is more difficult than we would tend to want to think. If you're an anthropologist, you're going to look at the tracks because Amy, I'm trying to track with you but if you show up at 4:00 on a Saturday, they 19 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 n-ray have been, the place may have been packed the 2 previous hours but then everybody leaves so I don't think that would give you an accurate count either. And we've always tried this, in fact the park industry in general really struggles with how to come up with an accurate use numbers because it's an outdoor facility that's used 6:00 a.rn. to 10:00 p.m. on an average day in our park system and so other than trying to track the use, there's other signals. You know to how much use is out there. There's tracks in the snow. There's litter at the facility. There's tracks around the edge so I think these folks are fairly accurate in giving at least some type of a use pattern here. And so I'can't come up with how we would do that other than having the rink attendants that were there and they counted bodies... The number of people. It'd going to be difficult...how these rinks gets used. And when you get a room full of people and they come and testify, I'll guarantee you'll hear, at Minnewashta every year we've had it, we can't believe these numbers. We're out there so perhaps we want to slow the process down. Put these folks on notice. Come up with some good criteria and then come in next year. The program is budgeted and the program's ready to do as we currently have it, but we want to make sure that we, because the department and as a city overall I think you'll find that we want to, if things aren't wor~ng, we want to take a look at it. We don't believe in continuing on just because it's always been that way so that's why we're here today. Franks: And my experience and history with this is, this is not a new issue. We've struggled for 5 years attempting to quantify how many skaters are at rinks and we have put it off and we have put neighborhoods on notice in a sense and we've done all those things and you know I'm looking at the latest inforn-~ation we have and things just really haven't changed. I'm having some difficulty justifying a cost, not all of the cost here, Co~Tect. Not all the cost is a cash outlay cost. But there's costs that are incurred in the projects not getting completed and overhead usage that's going to administer this program. You know if we look at the numbers, which I believe to be the, which what we've struggled with, I believe to be the best way to quantify that we have available to us. Really Pheasant Hills is one that would go. You know it's low on the list. I also agree with Commissioner Happe that the base and population centers of Chanhassen are changing and these original neighborhood rinks were outside of locations decided upon when the population was distributed a little bit differently than it is now. And I think this needs, if any kind of a review needs to occur, it needs to be an entire city review with all the neighborhoods being able to participate in the review. I'm really at a point where I think we need to make a decision. We need to make sure that we have ice as an amenity available to the residents. I don't, I can't see at this point really justifying the expense, the time, the cost in maintaining these neighborhood parks that our information indicates just really aren't getting a use. Considering too that the cost for these things comes right out of the general fund, which is experiencing a tremendous amount of pressure and we're actually as a coi~nission making requests against that general fund for I think some pretty important and high priority items and part of me is saying, we need to really make these requests in a financially responsible way and make some priorities and some of those decisions are going to be tough and they're going to be painful but you know no matter how we decide these things, they're going to be painful to somebody. And what I'm looking at are numbers that are not as significant for some of the other things that we'd be interested in making requests for. So I know Todd that you're suggesting that we kind of put this on notice and deal with it again but that sounds a lot like the discussion we had last year and I really, I know that we've had some turnover on the commission so I've got the benefit of some of the experience that the rest of us don't, some don't have. But my personal feeling would be that it's time to make a decision now, and that we consider that this come up as an item for annual review. We certainly know how to create a neighborhood skating rink. We certainly have the means to do that. We've removed a rink and added one back and it wasn't a particularly difficult process for that rink to get going again. And so I don't know if this is a permanent situation, but I think considering the current circumstances that this is a responsible move to make, although 20 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 painful for some people, and that we should really follow the recommendation of staff and really focus our ice activities in the rink areas that are indicated on the map so. Any other comments. I' m wondering if there is anyone who' s willing to offer a motion. Atkins: I have a question, one more question. Franks: Sure, go ahead. Atkins: Did you have this same discussion last year at this time and the same recommendation? Franks: Well not exactly the same discussion, but almost the same discussion. And not only last year. Atkins: That's interesting. Hoffman: Staff never made the recommendation to cut this many rinks. Atkins: Okay. Hoffman: But we've had the discussion. Franks: Well we'll just break with exactly how we're supposed to run this meeting Ted and we'll give you a chance to say something. Ted Koltes: I don't disagree with what you're saying in terms of cost, but I would volunteer though is that our neighborhood in particular has spoken up. Where are the rest of them? Franks: Yeah, and I can really appreciate that personally. Now this is maybe going to sound a little jaded but I've been sitting up here for a while and it's, this is not the first time that people from a neighborhood have come and said yes, we're really going to do this. Of course everyone is going to want a rink in their neighborhood. Why wouldn't you? You know. And when it comes down to the actual use, you know we can see, I'm going to work with the numbers that we have and we can see for the last 2 years that we have numbers, honestly the numbers for Pheasant Hills are not good as far as their usage. And so we're attempting to extrapolate on some unknowns about what that future usage might be. I'm not willing to do that. Ted Koltes: But the populous is such and the turnover is such that the numbers of 2 years ago don't represent fully, that would be a point that I would contend, number one. And number two, if you can break this down into a $30 per day cost for the people that have represented themselves in here for them to take their kids and go to the Chaska Community Center to skate and to pay, it's going to cost them more than that $30. Franks: Right, but they don't have to do that. They can bop down Galpin to Bluff Creek Elementary without going to the Chaska Community Center and skate on a nice facility. I don't think that the $30 a day is quite the complete figure either. I mean it's one way to look at it but we've gone over how there's other costs that aren't direct cash outlay costs there involved in getting these rinks up and going and keeping them maintained. Ted Koltes: Because there is no warming house or electricity or rink attendant or any other fees associated with that rink, it's just the actual maintenance costs, which unless I'm misunderstanding you, these are fixed budgeted costs already in place. 21 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Franks: Right. My understanding is those numbers are between about $5,000 and $7,000 a year to maintain a pleasure rink in a neighborhood park. And that's been fairly consistent information that's been provided to us over the last few years. The warming house itself adds 25, what is it? Ruegemer: About $1,200 to $1,500. Franks' $1,200 to $1,500. Ruegemer: Per. Franks: Per warming house per season. And then the rink, and then of course the warn-Ling house attendant. Ted Koltes: Isn't that part of why we pay nearly 4 grand a year in city taxes? Franks: Well now we don't have control over setting the taxes every year. Attempting what we're, you know we pay taxes for city services and here on the park cormnission, when it comes to park issues, I think we want to provide the biggest bang for everyone's dollar. And what I was suggesting here for me, in my opinion, and there's obviously some different opinion on the comn-fission, is that we might be able to get more for our money than what we're spending on some of these pleasure rinks when we are providing a skating, ice skating available to anyone who is willing and able to go to a community park. We're not contemplating an all or nothing. We're looking at providing this service to the community in a way that's going to serve, I think, the entire community. Maybe not in the way we would all like, but I think in the most responsible way. So what I'd like to do is see if there is some kind of a motion that can come from tile con'nnission. Happe: Just a point of clarification Todd. Is the motion that we would make is recommending to the City Council what they do and do nor fund? Or what is the determination that we would be motioning tonight? Hoffman: Correct. You would make that recormnendation. Happe: It's a recoinmendation for funding to the City Council? Hoffman: Well it's for operations. For policy and that would be placed on their consent agenda for their approval. Mr. Koltes, or any other citizen would obviously have tile right to appeal your decision to the City Council. Therefore it goes to the City Council, is placed on their consent agenda so they're made aware of it and if those appeals are made there, then the City Council can act accordingly. Franks: And is there notification for that just through the official publication in the paper, or are people, interested people informed personally when that's coming before the City Council? Hoffman: Generally, depending on the focus of the conversation and the age of the last conversation with those individuals, it's sent to them directly and then in the paper, but if it's a conversation that's aged and last season... Franks: So I'm going to suggest that you and your neighbors, depending on how this plays out today with the commission, the recommendation that we make to the City Council, you pay 22 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 attention to that and if it's something you want to make sure that you voice your opinions to the City Council, you may certainly do that. Staff has made a recommendation. We can see it on our paper there. Happe: Chairman Franks, I do have a motion that I would like to make. Consistent with staff recommendation I move that we advise the City Council that we would recommend that they maintain warming house locations at the Chan Rec Center, City Center Park, Roundhouse Park, and North Lotus Park for the upcoming season, along with the 8 skating surfaces that are identified in the staff recommendation. I also recommend that the pleasure rinks at the 7 listed neighborhood park locations in the staff recommendation not be maintained for the upcoming winter season. Franks: Thank you Commissioner Happe. Is there a second to that motion? Seeing no second, the motion fails. Is there an additional motion from the commission? Kelly: I would like to make a motion to City Council that the 7 parks mentioned for being shut down this year be, instead be put on a probation, a one year probationary period with letters going out to the nearby residents informing them that low usage in the 2002-2003 skating season will result probably in the rink closure for the 2003-2004 skating season. Franks: Okay. There's been a motion. Is there a second? ' Spizale: I second it. Franks: The motion's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion regarding the motion? O'Shea: I have one. It concerns me though that we'll have the same kind of figures as we did this year, and I'm not saying it's an easy job but to...motion there's got to be a way that we have sounder numbers because if I felt comfortable with those numbe, rs, with notice to the neighbors, then I could agree with staff but I really don't feel comfortable with those numbers. I don't have the answer how we're g6ing to get those numbers, but if we don't put it in there, we're going to get the same numbers as we did in the papers we have now, that I, the addition is we need somehow better gathering of usage numbers and let's...staff how to do that but, so as we're looking at it I would want to add to that, to Tom's motion. Happe: Is there a friendly amendment added i'n that or, I didn't quite. Franks: Are you proposing a method to quantify these numbers? O'Shea: Well I could. It would mean a...but I don't honestly have an answer right now of how you'd do that, other than what I shared before is, you need to get there during break. Franks: My feeling is if that's the direction that you are, some commissioners are interested in going, is that we're not at a point to make a determination about how exactly to count usage. And then if that's what the intent is to go forward with a strong recommendation, I don't think it necessarily appropriate at this time until you can really fill in those details. O'Shea: Then it' s not a staff decision? More policy more than. Franks: Well what I'd be interested then would be necessary is for this to go back to staff for them to develop some recommendations about how this rink usage can be quantified and then for 23 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 us to determine whether that's sufficient or not for what your purposes are and the commission would forward at that point. Hoffman: We can do that. Franks: So what we might be able to do then is to, I know that there's a motion that's on the floor right now that's been seconded, but one of the things that we may choose to do then is to table this issue until such time as staff can present to us what their recommendations would be for more accurately quantifying usage. And then going forward and seeing if that is suitable to our purpose and then maMng a decision at that time. Spizale: Would that be too late? As far as what needs to be done now? Hoffman' No. Franks: Well we don't start flooding until nfid-December, if weather cooperates so...provide staff enough time to take a look at this issue and see if something can be done. Hoffman: What we're looking at is the mechanics of how we're going to quantify these decisions. Quantify these, the different statistics you want to use to make these decisions. Franks: Is there any further on tile motion currently before tile conmfission? Spizale: No. Franks: Okay. Is someone willing to move the previous question? Then we'll bring that motion for a vote. What I'm thinking is then the motion will fail and a new motion will then be proposed to table this until such time as staff will present to us reco~mnendations. Kelly: Can I withdraw nay motion? Franks' Well it's been seconded so, let's just go forward. I feel like I'm running things a little bit too much. I have another job as a parliamentarian for another organization so I get a little carried away. Alright. So let's call Commissioner Kelly's original motion for a vote. Kelly moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission reconnnend that the 7 neighborhood rinks being recolnmended being shut down this year instead be put on a one year probationary period with letters going out to the nearby residents informing them that Iow usage in the 2002-2003 skating season will result' probably in the rink closure for the 2003-2004 skating season. All voted in opposition. The motion failed unanimously. Franks' The motion fails. Is there a new motion? Kelly: I would like to make a motion to table this discussion until staff can come up with a method to better quantify usage at the neighborhood ice rinks. Franks: Tile motion for tabling this agenda item with conditions is before tile commission. Is there a second? O'Shea: I second. 24 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Kelly moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table action on eliminating ice rinks at neighborhood parks and directing staff to establish a method to better quantify usage. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Franks: Todd, some marching, Todd and Jerry, some marching orders there. Hoffman: We will also quantify the dollars, or the expenses... Todd Hoffman explained to Ted Koltes the action taken by the Park and Recreation Commission. REVIEW CITY POLICY CONCERNING SPRAYING FOR ADULT MOSQUITOES IN CITY PARKS. Franks: I'm operating under the assumption that all of us have taken time to review the material that's been presented to us. Todd, if you would take some time to hit the high points and then we'll move forward. Hoffman: I will hit the highlights and I am glad that I made the, what I consider to be the popular recommendations on this item because I think it will go much more smoothly. First of all I'm going to hand out something that I received in today's mail. It's the Metropolitan Mosquito Control District 2001 Operating Review and Plans for 2002. The Mosquito Control District is a special tax authority so you'll see that on your taxes. Just.a side note. I saw them out checking today for mosquitoes. I didn't know why but they were scooping and just to make sure they're all dead. This issue, the file for this issue is about this thick. You would not have believed the amount of public testimony that this body took, received back in 90, what were the years. 1991. It turned into a debate over Mosquito Control District in public spaces. Not just mosquito control in the city of Chanhassen, and I won't go into that in entire detail but I'll just hit the highlights. So the Mosquito Control District was out here on September 23rd tO address the City Council. The minutes of that meeting are attached. The council, with good reason, is concerned about the health concerns with the mosquito disease that we have now on the topic of conversation on the topic of conversation so, the council asked the park commission to review the city's current policy of not permitting the spraying of chemicals for adult mosquitoes in city parks. There is no ban on spraying the briquettes or the corn cob granulars in these parks, and those briquettes or granulars go in the wet areas and they change the chemistry of the larval mosquito and they never hatch. Adult mosquitoes, or adultricide, this is where they go through with the fogger. It was quite popular I think, you know we all remember the, going through the neighborhoods with these large foggers. They don't do that quite as much anymore, but they specially hit the times when there are neighborhood, or community celebration. The 4th of July or a county fair, those type of things. In '91 we had a complaint where they sprayed for adult mosquitoes in Lake Ann Park. They sprayed improperly. It left a residue. They sprayed too close to the lake, so there were two things going on. They had a complaint that two residents became sick from the residue left from the adult mosquito spray, and then the second one is that they sprayed illegally or not within the label precautions of the chemical. So they were fined for that. They paid that fine. Complied with that and said they would not, they trained their applicators and they wouldn't do that any longer. But then Mr. Rivkin convinced the commission and the council at that time that there was some sense of health risk associated with the chemical itself and it's reaction it had on him and his son, and that risk was greater than the risk of having these adult mosquitoes being treated in the parks. So then we have the resulting debate. What really stood out in that is that there was very few times, I think in the previous, I've got the statistic in here. They sprayed like 7 times, and so the commission or the council said, so what's the big deal. We ban adult mosquito control. They've only sprayed here 7 times in the last half a dozen years anyway. It's not going 25 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 to be a big deal. So in '92 you have the action taken by the city council. Items 1 through 4. Larval control can remain. Adult mosquito control eliminate the air use and re-evaluate the program. They shall not land or take their helicopters off at the parks. The staff actively pursue other methods for controlling mosquitoes. Follow-up discussion was taken place and again no changes made in the policies established the previous year. Had a recent correspondence concerning the activities in addition to e-mails from Mr. Rivkin also attached, so here we are 10 years later. IVh'. Rivkin continues to say that the Metropolitan Mosquito Control and mosquito control in general is all evil. Mosquito Control says, in these times, especially with encephalitis and the other things that these mosquitoes are threatening us with, that we should be doing more. Staff con2nents. These are the conclusions I reached in '92 and they've not changed. And this is just a common sense stuff. More mosquitoes live to carry out their life cycle in the metro area than are ever killed by this mosquito control on an annual basis. We're talking a vast majority of these mosquitoes live. They get around the briquettes. They get around the granulars. They get around the adult fogging and they're out there looking for us. But reducing the mosquito population by the number that the Metropolitan Mosquito Control District does kill, or prevents matching, reduces to some degree, we don't know what that is. The likelihood that you will be bitten by a mosquito. So you are doing some good. And then given the infrequency of the chemical appellations made in the early 90's, banning their use seemed inconsequential. However today, and this is based, this is where my recommendation comes from. In '92 it seemed reasonable to debate the effectiveness of spraying for adult mosquitoes versus in the public parks, but with the increased threat of the West Nile Virus and diseases that we have going on, I'm recormnending the commission recon-m~end the City Council rescind the city's current policy and permit control for adult mosquitoes in city par'klands to resume. With that motion I guarantee that you will see an extraordinary amount of adult spraying in our parks next year because Metropolitan Mosquito Control is going to want to come back into Chanhassen and give us a presence again because they really felt kind of like the orphan child in Chanhassen. That not very many people cut them out but Chanhassen, the Minnesota River Valley, National Wildlife Refuge did. Hennepin Parks does not allow adult mosquito controlling, and just so you know what their, those are natural resource based organizations and their reason for doing this is because mosquito larva is the basis in the food chain for many living creatures so those organizations say, yeah we understand the health risk, but we also, as a natural resource organization, understand that we need to allow these life cycles to continue so they don't spray for adults or allow the larval control to take place. Franks: Thank you Todd. What I'd like to do is open this up for any quick questions that any of the commissioners may have for Todd. Spizale: One question. These two people the only people that have ever had problems? Hoffman: That have come forward to the city, yeah. But there's tons of litanies of testimony about the people that became ill from these chemicals. Spizale: But these are the only problems we've ever had in our community? Hoffman: Yes. That have been responded. Spizale: In a period of how much time? Ever right? Hoffman: Well for the past dozen years .... so you don't have any recent case studying. Prior to that, these are the... I'm aware of. 26 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Spizale: That's all I have. Franks: Thanks. Commissioner Happe. Happe: Has Mr. Rivkin stayed in touch with you on this Todd or? Hoffman: Yeah, thus the recent e-mail that you have in your packet. Happe: Yeah, that's what I was just trying. I thought I saw. I'll save my comments. Franks: Okay, great. Well Amy, we'll move onto you. O'Shea: I don't really have any. Franks: Okay. Throughout that whole time since '91, they've continued with the briquettes, con'ect? Hoffman: Yes. Franks: And how many areas, park areas have they treated with those briquettes? I know that they do the wetlands out at Lake Susan. Hoffinan: I don't kdmw for sure. They keep their own records. They do Rice Marsh Lake, Lake Susan, there's a variety of areas that I don't have those. I don't have those numbers for you, for those areas. Franks: Now when I was reading the minutes of the park commission meeting, it appeared as if the spirit of their various motions on this issue was to have this, this mosquito control reviewed on an annual basis. For sure in '93 it was to be reviewed, but there was some discussion that it continue to come in for review, but it appeared that didn't happen. Do we happen to know what the average portion of the allocation to the Mosquito Control District is from the average price house in Carver County? Do we happen to know that? I know they talked about it back in the old minutes what the cost was. We're still paying into the mosquito control. Hoffman: Correct. Absolutely. Happe: What? Franks: We're all paying. Every house in Chanhassen, as a part of their tax burden is funded for mosquito control in Carver County which is including adulticide. Hoffman: There was talk about in '91, there's no getting out of the program unless the entire county. Franks: Well it looks like it takes legislative action on the state level to get out of the program. So we're locked into the program. So in a sense we've been, well that's comments so I'll move on. Commissioner Kelly. Kelly: I don't have. The only question I have is, I read in the, is it true that we are the only city in the 7 county metro area? Okay. So from this comment in the minutes. 27 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Hoffman: Is incorrect. Kelly: Was incorrect. Alright. Hoffman: Over stating. Kelly: Okay. Atkins: Does the adult mosquito control involve spraying? Hoffman: Yes. Atkins: And would this be for all the parks? Hoffman: No. Traditionally this would go into the high use areas, Lake Ann, Bandimere, Lake Susan., City Center, and then most communities, or many communities would call them and schedule one for the day before the 4°~ of July. The day before the fireworks. Day before another special event, so they come out. The Metropolitan Mosquito Control is an independent governmental agency. They come out and they operate on their own means and by their own methods, and then we can influence them by giving a phone call and saying here's some dates 'we'd like to see, and they typically try to accommodate you in those areas, and those requests. Atkins: And your basic reason for wanting us to rescind this current policy is because of the development of the West Nile Virus? Hoffman: And all the fears that go along with it. Atkins: That's all. Hoffman: Seeing that there's no other questions, let's bring this back to the commission for comments. Since you just ended up Commissioner Atkins, we'll just start with you. At,ns: Oh I'm a big tree hugger and I really don't like spraying anything around so I'll have to listen to some of your comments. I'm pretty opinionated about that. Franks: Why don't you give us your opinion. Let's hear it. Atkins: Well I'm, chemical control of weeds even, anything pest control really rubs me the wrong way so I have to hear more about this. Franks: Okay. Tom. Kelly: I think for me at least West Nile hit home when I heard about the person in Chaska being diagnosed this summer with having West Nile, so it was no longer a Louisiana or Alabama issue where it first came up and it has now come up north here and so I think I'm in favor of adult spraying just for the fear of, of not eradicating West Nile but maybe limiting it's spread and the spread of other diseases that those little mosquitoes carry. That's it. Franks: There's some things that I found interesting in the park commission minutes from July 28, 1992. One is that there's a quote by, it's Harold Trende I think is talking, and suggesting that allergists stated that people allergic to ragweed could exhibit cross sensitization, could exacerbate 28 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 respiratory diseases like asthma. It's very interesting that my son, who is allergic to ragweed and has asthma, reacts when they aerial drop the granules for the...and so I happen to be in a family where we're directly affected by these chemicals that are dropped into our city. What we do is we're on a notification list that when they are coming by to do their applications we stay inside. And that has been perfectly satisfactory once we figured out what was going on, and it's certainly my opinion that the risks of some of these mosquito borne illnesses are far more dangerous than telling my son that we need to stay inside for an afternoon. And so whereas in 1991-92-93 when they were not looking in the face of the spread of some of these diseases, you know it' s probably prudent for them to take that course of action. I think times have changed now. The situation is altered to the point where as long as application is done per label and according to the protocol of their agency, which is something I think as a city we, staff needs to keep a close eye on, that it seems like a good idea to do it since we're paying for it anyway. And I've heard a lot of comments about mosquitoes at the 4th of July celebration actually being an incredible nuisance. So since we're paying for that celebration as well, I think that we should do what we can to make our parks as enjoyable as possible. Commissioner O'Shea. O'Shea: My comment would be, I think perception rules and with the threat of West Nile Virus being so close, that the perception would be negative if someone contracted West Nile Virus and knew that we were not doing something as a city to prevent it. Again I know you don't know where you catch it, but I think if there was an outbreak in Chanhassen I'd feel better knowing that the city did as much as they could to prevent it from happening at least in our city parks. So I do, and again with Chair Franks comment, I agree. Notification needs to be carried out successfully to people that do have, that do react to it or want to stay away from it because they fear the chemical. But I do think it needs to be brought back in. Franks: Thank you. Dave. Happe: I agree with Commissioner O'Shea. In reading, through the notes from the past commissions that dealt with this, it was requested but actually declined that it become a permanent ban. That was supposed to be reviewed on an annual basis. Unfortunately Mr. Rivkin at the time had a serious medical problem, but that medical problem it seems was caused by an improper application of the chemicals at that time. There have been other cities that had a similar ban and my understanding is, at least in some of those cases that similar bans have been rescinded and I agree with Chairman Franks. Our taxpayers are paying for this service and I will be in support of spraying for mosquitoes. Spizale: And I would also be in support of spray because I think we can all enjoy our parks a little bit more knowing that it's just a little bit safer out there so I would agree. Happe: Chair Franks, I'd also just mention that the only information that I have was based on my reading of this packet. I did try to contact Mr. Rivkin. He wasn't available for a conversation prior to this so. Franks: Appreciate that effort. I also made some, indicate efforts this morning to actually speak with some agents in the mosquito control district and of course they took the opportunity to lobby about re-instituting their services to the city of Chanhassen quite strongly, and I found them to be fairly persuasive so. Jack, anything? Spizale: No. 29 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Franks: Before we wrap up I just found it interesting in the park commission minutes from 1992 again that the comments of A1 Klingelhutz beginning on page 5, and indicating that he loves to garden and you can see by the color of his skin that he's out in the sun a lot and then him stating that he hasn't aged. And I remember when there was mosquito control in this area and at times we've had rains and moisture, these mosquitoes would almost pick you up and CalTy you away, and that was 1992 and I'll tell you in my back yard, and I'm one who loves to garden and I'm going to say I don't think I've aged either. That the mosquitoes ahnost picked us up and carried us away this year. It was just incredible and anything that we can do for A1 and I...maybe it's those same mosquitoes hanging around. Happe: Whoever does offer a ;notion on this, it'd be great if they could include a strong reconm-~endation fi'om the Park and Rec Commission that there be a particular emphasis placed, as Amy said, on the notification piece of it. We want to make sure that we, if we do re-instate the spraying, that we spread the word as loud and wide as we can just to make sure that everybody understands this change in policy. Hoffman: We're going to do some press release through the newspaper. That's, right there they'll post it at the entrance to the park but if you want to be on a call list, then you need to contact and they'll put you on a' call list. Franks: You need to contact them. The other thing Todd, since there's been so much time since we've actually had this, we may need to go a little bit more out of our way to inform the public that this is starting up again. This is how you get on the call list. This is what's going on, and especially during those times when we might be making a request as a city for special applications in high use areas for certain events. Tournaments, 4th of July, that kind of thing, since we'll be making that request ahead of time. That we actually find some way to publish ahead of time that that will be occurring. Hoffman: We can do tt~at through the newsletter. Web page. Franks: Through the newsletter and web page. And through the press release, inform people that that will be posted on the web page. Is there a ;notion? Don't be shy. It's right here. Spizale: I'tl make a motion. I make a motion that we recommend that the City Council rescind the city's current policy and permit control for adult mosquitoes in city parklands to resume. And to that I will add, maybe we should come up with some type of a better, how should I say? Letting people ~ow when the park's going to be sprayed...n-ty motion. Franks: So are you suggesting that the staff then take appropriate measures to notify through means available that this program is re-instituting and also in addition, when applications are going to take place? Spizale: Yes. Franks: And along with that information about how to be added to the notification list. And where the information's going to be posted. Does that clarify your notification? Spizale: I think that's perfect. Franks: Ah'ight. Is there a second to that motion? 30 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Happe: Second. Franks: The motion's been moved and seconded. Spizale moved, Happe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council rescind the city's current policy and permit control of adult mosquitoes in city parklands to resume. Also, direct staff to take appropriate measures to notify the public through means available that this program is re-instituting, when applications are going to take place, information about how to be added to the notification list and where the information's going to be posted. All voted in favor, except Atkins who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1. Franks: What I'd like to do then is correct the record that Commissioner Atkins has voted in the negative on the motion and would you like to state your reasons for doing that, if you choose. Atkins: No thank you. Franks: Okay. The motion carries. RECREATION PROGRAM REPORTS: 2002 HALLOWEEN PARTY. Franks: Jerry, are you filling in for Corey? Ruegemer: I will. Franks: Alright. Well we'd like you to do that. Hoffmai~: He represents him at time. CoreY doesn't purposely not show up here, but he's not assigned to this meeting so Mr. Ruegemer represents Corey here. Ruegemer: I am his voice. Franks: Well you can let Corey know sometime that we certainly wouldn't mind seeing him here at our meetings, when he has the time to show up for us. Ruegemer: I'm sure he would enjoy seeing all of you. Just to give you a real quick verbal update on the Halloween party. We did re-run the flyers, since we had talked last time. They had been distributed to the schools. We purchased candy last week. Everything is, not a whole lot of hard candy Rod. Thank you. We have a lot of the key club members, about 30 people helping out with various games and hay rides and a lot of that sort of thing but just wanted to offer up the volunteer list again. We're still looking for some costume characters in the kind of friendly hallway so to speak, and don't worry about a costume. We have plenty of costumes to go around so if anybody's interested in that. Volunteers will need to be there around 4:45 at the Chan Rec Center, and we will provide food for you in the form of pizza, sandwiches, something like that to be determined so, just wanted to let everybody know kind of where we were on that event. I'll pass around the sheet. I know we had talked about this last time and if anything has changed in your schedules and you'd like to put your name on the list to join the festivities, we certainly would appreciate that so I will pass the list. Dave looks eager. 31 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Franks: It's a fun time. O'Shea: Jerry, would you, if you need to move me, I'm on there. Ruegemer: ...and you can certainly hold onto that volunteer list until after the meeting if you'd like to. Does anybody have any questions on that? I just want to give everyone kind of a brief update as to where we were at this point. Franks: And you're moving Half Pint and Oscar to the back... Ruegemer: We are moving further and further away from that bleacher area. Franks: And you are set using cones and tape or something to create a safety area. Ruegemer: A safe zone if you will. Franks: Alright. Or sornething. Ruegemer: Any other questions? Franks: Are you having the costume characters on both sides of the center hallway? Ruegemer: What would you like to see Rod? Franks: Well it does create some congestion actually. If the costume characters it might, well you might want to take a look and a have a contingency plan. Ruegemer: Our numbers are down a bit but we certainly can have a plan B and C. Atkins: Can ~ wear my own costume? Ruegemer: Certainly. Franks: Oh absolutely. Atkins: It's not scary but it's cool. Franks: Great. And how many hay wagons? Ruegemer: Two. Franks: Two, good. And out the back door? Ruegemer: Yeah, go out that north door. Franks: And is there someone assigned for crowd control? Ruegemer: We're going to have Boy Scouts. Hoffman: And some adults. 32 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Ruegemer: Anything else Rod? Franks: No. No, that's good for me. Thanks. Ruegemer: Moving on? Franks: Yep. 2002 TREE LIGHTING CEREMONY. Ruegemer: For the tree lighting ceremony, as kind of an FYI as to when the date is. Just to inform the commission if they'd like to put that on their schedule. The second year in a row now we will be down by the clock tower again as we were in the past. With the library project going on that, we're limited in space and fuctionability I guess up here. So we did move that, both celebrations, the ceremony down to kind of where we have been in the past. Once the library does get finished and the city does, you know they would like to plant a permanent tree, which probably would be a good idea. We can move that ceremony and that back up to this area again, so we're kind of in limbo right now. But it is, it's a suitable location for the next year and a half to two years I guess. Franks: Not enough space at Pioneer Square or whatever it's called? Ruegemer: Pioneer Square? Franks: You up by old St. Hubert's where the old library, city hall. Atkins: By the old village hall? Franks: Village hall, yeah right. Ruegemer: We do have a, we did plant a tree on the opposite side or the north side of West 78th Street next to the clock tower. Hoffman: Last year they had it down there but they didn't like crossing the street for the safety. Ruegemer: But we do have CSO's and personnel there to manage crowd control and traffic control. Atkins: Is there any kind of hot drinks or anything? Ruegemer: Yep, there will be, Corey's coordinating that with the Chamber of Commerce so it will be food and drink there. Atkins: It would be fun to have the old village hall open and be able to go in there. Franks: Well I guess that's where I was going. Hoffman: Are they still talking about using both sides? Ruegemer: Oh for sure. 33 Park and Rec Comn~ssion - October 22, 2002 Franks: Oh, we are still talking about using both sides? And is there anyway to have the village hall open? Hoffman: It was last year. Franks: Okay, so we're going to still do that? Ruegemer: Yeah, and that's the chamber office. I would think that that'd be beneficial for them. Happe: Chapel Hill Academy is always involved with volunteers, especially around the snacks and the caroling, etc. Are they not an official sponsor of the 'event xvith the City of Chanhassen and the Chamber or are they falling under the direction of one of those two organizations? Ruegemer: Well, right. They would be really under the City for that. I mean it's the Chamber and the City have kind of co-sponsored the event in the past so, we're kind of the two driving forces I guess. Franks: Great, thank you. Atkins: What's the date on that? Ruegemer: Saturday, December 7~h. 2003 FEBRUARY FESTIVAL. Ruegemer: And the last item would be the 2003 February Festival. Just to kind of, another kind of FYI just to get it on your calendars. It will be Saturday, February 1~t out at Lake Ann so. A lot of things will be similar as they have been in the past. Really one of the main focuses being on the ice fishing contest so any new ideas or suggestions we will certainly welcome those. Happe: Sure feels like the ice is going to be frozen this year. Hofflnan: You never ~know. Franks: Great, thank you Jerry. ADMINISTRATIVE: A. PARK MASTER PLAN PROGRESS, PULTE LAND ACQUISITION B. COMPREHENSIVE LONG RANGE CAPITAL REPLACEMENT PLAN. Hoffman: Thank you Chair Franks, members of the commission. Both of these items have been discussion items for the commission and the City Council over the past few months. The Arboretum Village parkland, many of you toured that here a month ago. History on that, as a condition of the approval for the Arboretum Village, 16.9 acres of parkland was dedicated to the city, and you see that on the cross hatched area on the plan. A large area of wetlands. The city granted park dedication credit of 5 acres which totaled 79 percent of the required park dedication for this project. The City Council's intent in taking this additional property was to expand the Bluff Creek preservation zone. To that end it's the best interest of the city to develop a park master plan for this property focusing on preservation, and the area which we're talHng about that was taken for expansion is right... As we stood out there we took the trail off the end of this 34 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 cul-de-sac and the city would not acquire this property fight here. It would have been townhomes. It was this area. In essence we traded in our park dedication cash for this land. If the city had not done that, this cul-de-sac would have been extended out... Franks: So the 79 percent is the 5 acres of the 8 that was eligible for us to take? Approximately. Hoffman: Yes. So we are collecting the remaining 21 percent in park dedication fees on the remaining property. So the intent here, this is the Bluff Creek preservation zone. This is an expansion of that. What this does is provide for some upland habitat as a part of that Bluff Creek wetland area, and so I believe the council's intent at that time at least... The second item, and these go hand in hand with the recommendation. The second item is the long range capital replacement plan for park improvements. Chanhassen is a relatively young community and we've been expanding for 10 to 20 years, building new facilities. We are just now seeing the aging of these improvements and generally that includes playground facilities, our asphalt surfaces, fencing, buildings, and the time has arrived to pay a little closer attention to those needs in the area of repair and replacement. Up until now it works fairly efficiently in a small organization and that's relatively new. When things start going wrong, you monitor them. For example tennis court holes start to froze heave and so you live with it until it's just so bad, then you try to package up a project and have those repaired. The City Council would like with their key financial strategies, would like to get a little closer handle on what kind of costs we're talking about...future. Asphalt surfaces is one of many areas. The city's engineering department maintains a pavement management plan for the city streets. They have expressed a willingness that they will incorporate our asphalt surfaces into their assessment portion of the programming, and each spring their consultant would go out and look at all those city trails and all the parking lots located within the city park, which is fight around 25 parking lots if you think about it... throughout our park system so that's a good deal of asphalt surfaces. We will deliver to them an inventory of our surfaces, allowing them to do that. But then it' s the financing portion of it is our responsibility and so we have to again provide for funding through the general caPital budget to make sure that those things are... A little history in this area, for the past 4 or 5 years we've allocated approximately $30,000 in general fund monies to go ahead and do some overlays on these trail systems. The second one, just an example. The city currently owns 10 wooded playground structures that do not meet city safety standards, or do not meet safety standards. Currently these playgrounds are on a 5 year replacement schedule. Next year we have Meadow Green and Curry Farms Park in there. I'm recommending that we accelerate that program and include 4 in 2004, 4 again in 2005. The cost of replacing these playgrounds will exceed a half a million dollars so this is a, these are the type of things where you start to see, there was a rapid build-out 10 to 15 years ago. Those structures have now aged for a number of reasons. They're wood, and they were built at a time when safety standards weren't as stringent as they are today. And back then they met the safety standards. Today they do not. The city in good standing could not allow those structures to stay in there for too many more years, but I don't believe we have the ability to go ahead and replace all half a million in one year, so we would like to stage that over 3 years. Formalizing these and other long range capital replacement fees, a 20 year document is recommended. That's a fairly large endeavor. It will take a great deal of inventorying and really the same type of analysis that you talked about tonight. So how do you, and Commissioner Stolar has been talking about the Eden Prairie studies. How do you categorize that? How do you place, you know which park receives which priority? So it's staff recommendation that the commission recommend to the City Council, direct staff to prepare letters, requested proposals for both at Arboretum Village parkland acquisition master plan, and then a separate document which would be a 20 year capital repair and maintenance plan for park improvements. These would be consultant contracts that we would hire qualified consultants to 35 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 come in and provide those services to the city, and those contracts would be awarded on the lowest qualified bidder basis. Franks: Thank you Todd. A couple of quick questions. One is, about the master plan for the Arboretum Village acquisition. I don't remember us making a determination about whether we are interested in passive development or active development of that 5 acre parcel. Hoffman: That would be part of the conversation and those neighbors would certainly be involved in that. Franks: Is that something that we should actually do before we offer up a creating master plan out to a consultant for bidding and for work? I guess what I'm wondering if, do we want to take things one step at a time first and make some determination. Work with the residents of that area to detern-fine what the needs are and how we want to philosophically move forward with development to that 5 acre parcel. And then after that point, work with the consultants about developing it and according to those lines. I just feet there's... Hoffman: That's the cormnission's choice. Franks: Well there's a reason why you've chosen to do it this way and t guess I'm interested in hearing. Hoffman: Well, I only alluded to that the council took this property for preservation or enlargement or embellishment of the Bluff Creek natural resource. They did not place a designation that it would be passive or active, but at least in my recollection that was their reasoning and why they would like to see this property preserved. But I also recall they had conversations at the time, are the private neighborhood amenities, these little totlots sufficient to meet the park needs of not only this neighborhood but the adjoining neighborhood, which will be Vasserman Ridge, which the commission and the City Council chose not to acquire parNand from because they said no, we're spending our money next door. We're acquiring 5 acres next door so you may in fact have residents that currently aren't there today that would like a very nice walk out their back door to a much different park than just a passive park. So this is a conversation that needs to be played out and I don't have a specific recornmendation on how you would choose to do that. That's a community based decision in my mind. Franks: My feeling is we should have that conversation first before we send this out to consultants. And I don't know how other commissioners feel about that. Any coIm~_ents? Hoffman: It's common that that is part of the process when you bring a consultant in. First thing they do is they sit down in a community rneeting with the conm~ssion and the neighbors and anybody else and say alright, we don't kmow what this park is going to be, and then you start, your control is gone at that point and you go out there and...community and now it's a part of that process. And that reconm~endation then would come back to the commission. Happe: How have we done it in the past Rod? Hoffman: It's not been that big of a question. Franks: No it's not. Happe: So it's been dedicated as passive or active beforehand? 36 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Hoffman: Right. Or at least the much more defined. Franks: Well I know Todd you're aware of what my feelings are concerning this all so part of that comes from that attitude about, you know if there's work that we can do and actually have been working for us and what we're looking to accomplish, I feel more comfortable with that. Now if that's something that, in attempting to do we just lose positive control over how that property gets developed because we create some kind of monster, then maybe that's not the way to go and that' s where I' m kind of looking for your expertise. Hoffman: You could simply make a recommendation to the City Council tonight that you want that to be passive or you want that to be active and you want that to be a combination of those two. If they feel comfortable with that and receive a motion on the council, or a confirmation of that motion, then you're ready to move forward. Franks: The one thing that we wouldn't be able to do, if we were to act on that tonight is to have input from the surrounding community there about how it is that they're looking to have that developed. Hoffman: Yeah, we've had a little bit of this discussion tonight and one thing that we, I always' urge commissioners to remember is that even if you have that conversation today, all the players won't be there. There are sometimes when you as representatives of the community need to represent not only the people that are there today, but the people that are going to be there in the future and make your best judgment. There are times when calling the neighborhood isn't beneficial because there are times when all you're going to hear is one side of the equation, and then you're putting undue pressure on yourselves in a situation to make a decision where you;re trying to please a crowd full of people. So you don't always have to have the public present to make public decisions. That's one reason you're appointed.. Franks: What I'd like to do personally is take a closer look and a more and creative, broader context for what we're doing here and include in that closer look an examination of what we're expecting from Pulte in their amenity areas. And then take a look on overlays of where that neighborhoods to the north and east are coming in and exactly the trail connectors and the number of homes and that kind of thing so we can actually see some of the numbers. I know that we, Pulte has provided those numbers already, but if we can like have them all laid out so we can see. You know what are the expected demographics in this area? What are the single family homes that we're looking at going in that will be connected by trail to this area? And you know what's the, let's layout the radius of the other neighborhood parks and community parks and access to those. Then I think we can have a little bit greater comprehensive picture of what we might be looking to develop there, based on our experience. And then, before we put out the cash to hire the consultants to do this, really make that idea known to the City Council as we look for that confirmation that we're heading in the direction that they're in approval of. Since they're the body that's going to have to approve the expenditure for that so. Hoffman: At that 'time the consultant process becomes almost the master planning process. Much more defined so it's easier, because now if you're telling them this is what we want, and design it, that's a much more defined job for that individual. Franks: I just, in my opinion, and maybe I'm, you know I don't have the experience obviously that you do but we retain a little bit more control over the process at that point by doing it that way. 37 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Happe: Rod, I agree with your thought process because I for one don't have enough education or information to be able to even cast a vote tonight...because I wouldn't, without having the detail or the information that you're talking about, I don't know how we could make that decision. Franks: Are we agenda heavy for the next couple meetings? Hoffman: Some budget stuff, Other than that... Franks: Okay. Are we looking at, we're not looking at potential development in the next construction season for this parcel anyway? Hoffman: No. The biggest item that will come back next 3 to 4 months is the, what are they calling the one down south? Bernardi property. Franks: The Bernardi property. Alright. Any other comments? Questions? Happe: I have a comment on the long range capital replacement, actually a question. On the long range capital replacement plan. In my mind what I had was a Schedule A that listed all the amenities that we owned when we implemented them by park. How long we thought they would last. What the replacement value would be of those amenities. And then Schedule B would then just roll that up, not by park but by year. So Schedule A is a breakout by park. Schedule B is then annual summary of our forecast for replacement or wear and tear on those amenities or assets that we own, and I just question as to if, you're recommending that we go for a consulting firm again that's capable of helping us compile that. Is that because of visual inspection would be needed on a regular basis of that or why would we need a consultant to step in and help us prepare that type of forecast? Hoffman: The complexity of the documents, the time involved. Staff could accomplish it, but it's one of those things where you would say, okay now I'm going to have to step out of what I'm doing today and re-focus 50 percent of my energy over here to create this document and the ramp up time is just going to be so great. There are areas that I'm not certified in that these people are going to say, alright architecturally, structurally, CPSC, ASTM standards, these things are not being met. And they are working with that on a daily basis. I'm certainly aware of those and I can find out, if I need to, but on a 35 park, 22 playground basis, my time was better invested doing other work. And there's no one else here that would be capable or has the appropriate job description to perform that duty so this is one of those areas where a consulting firm, comes in and really, you get a lot for your money. Happe: Is it something that once that's established, or once that initial front work has been completed by that consultant. I'm also seeing that you're recommending a 20 year plan with a 5 year review. Would it be overkill to suggest that there could be an additional year tacked on annually and that that could be just a working document or a working plan that's reviewed more than every 5 years, just to make sure that we're keeping up with the intended purpose of properly forecasting? Hoffman: A couple thoughts on that. Capital is always reviewed annually because you make a reco~mnendation, and so this document, you're going to say okay. Here's your 2004. Here's what we have recommended for replacement. Now did it come true? Because the longer you go out, the greater eh'or. Okay so let's say we're loo~ng at 2009. Okay, did all that stuff come true...before the commission. If it is, then it comes up. So there is annual review forced upon 38 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 you by your annual CIP. So I didn't feel it's necessary that we review that entire document annually as well. But every 5 years. Franks: What I understood is that the 5 year review would be more of a process review of how the document's working, and that we would definitely review individual expenditures on a yearly basis when we do our CIP, annual basis when we do our CIP. Hoffman: How it's working and are things coming up faster than you anticipated or slower than you anticipated in each. Happe: Okay. One more question for you in that same area, as with regard to the 10 wooded playground structures. How great of a concern should we have and how much should we be taking a look at trying to reallocate money if necessary to get those wooded playground structures either up to code or replaced? Hoffman: Really no option of bringing them up to code. It's replacement. Happe: So replacement. Hoffman: And in 90, during the 90's ASTM guidelines changed dramatically. Consumer Product Safety Commission guidelines changed dramatically and we went and we paid for updates to these wood structures so we had the manufacturer's representatives come on out and do an analysis and they said alright, here's what we need to do to meet these current guidelines. To the best of our ability and we paid $2,000 to $4,000 per playground to make that happen. Today there's nothing more you can do. There's an element of danger and element of risk in each one of those that I would like to see them all taken out today, but it's, I just don't think it is, well let's imagine. Let's simply imagine that we say let's take them out and we take out Lake Ann, Lake Susan and the other 8 neighborhood playgrounds tomorrow without a plan to replace them. That's not going to go over... It's not going to make you look very popular. It's not going to make the City Council look very popular, so then you ask yourself okay, well let's say we're going to invest a half a million dollars today, so you make the recommendation to the City Council. That may or may not fly, and it's a decision where, the problems have been there for the last 8 or 10 years and they've been improved upon in the last 4 to 5 years but we still have an element of risk that we're all assuming so. I'd like to take them all out today but I've accelerated it to 4 year. After 3 years I think if we can go farther, it's all good. Happe: In keeping with my politically incorrect statements Rod? Franks: Oh go right ahead. Happe: Our commission has proposed to spend $275,000 in 2003 on a Bandimere Community park shelter. That is certainly part of a master plan. It's something we'd all like to see eventually put in there. But we're proposing to the City Council to spend $275,000 on that facility, while we have 10 wooded playground structures that are under park and rec that do not meet safety standards, and I just, I don't know if I'm the only one that has difficulty in spending money on a new while we have potential liabilities and potential hazards on our hands. Hoffman: It's a great question. Franks: Yeah. I think part of how we resolve that is that we're looking at new development versus maintenance and replacement as in a sense two separate activities. And so yeah, we need 39 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 to always be cognizant of the bottom line of what we're doing, but you know we're at a point now where the park system is aging to such an extent that if we utilize everything for replacing the new maintenance, we're not going to be developing anything new. And so we need to find some way to create some balance, and a safety issue is important. What I'd like to do is really explore some ways to eat cake and, have cake and eat it too so. That may or may not happen. This is part of my concern about the ice rink. We're talking about spending money on something that's kind of frosting on the cake. Happe: An enhancement as I think. Franks: Since we're already providing ice and we're going to provide more, when we have children playing on wood. playground equipment that's not safe in their neighborhood park. And it's how is it, and my point about how is it that we are getting the most for the money that we spend, the resources that we allocate. Let's move down here. Anything? Atkins: It seems like we ahnost changed the subject there. I, the only thing I want to say is I don't you know, know exactly what's going on with hiring a consultant about this and that, but it will, and develo, ping this park will be a new experience for me because I haven't, or helping, and the more I can learn about that process the better. Franks: Okay... is that a recommendation that you personally are bringing before the council2 Hoffman: Not yet. It will come before the park co~mnission as a part of your capital plan. Franks: When we work on that, so that's not a recommendation that we're considering today to act on2 Alright. I just wanted to clarify that. So what we're looking to do then is to act on the Arboretum Village master plan, and also make a recommendation potentially for a consultant to survey and prepare documents for a 20 year capital repair and maintenance plan. Hoffman: And process, correct. Franks: And process that, correct. Happe: Do we need a motion on the Arboretum Village parkland acquisition master plan or not? Franks: What I'd like to do is if, is to really look at including two separate motions on these issues and one is, I'd like, I'm thinking about the idea of directing staff to bring back to the commission some of the information that we talked about earlier. One is some of the demographic information of Arboretum Village and the surrounding neighborhoods. Some idea if we have it, of what is being considered being placed in those amenity areas. I know that was vague initially but they're building out Arboretum Village so they might have some greater idea about, at least what their budget's going to be and if we know their budget, we'll have some idea about what they're planning on putting in. And an overlay of that neighborhood parks and what we're looking at as access to this new neighborhood parks and what those amenities are as well. And then really taking a look at that and at that point making some determination about whether we are interested in proceeding with developing the Arboretum Village acquisition as a passive or more active. And if active, in a sense providing some direction so when we bring the consultant on board, we're going in a direction that we're interested in going. So Todd, would that require being tabled or is that a motion in and of itself2 Or do we not make a motion on it today2 40 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Hoffman: That's a motion. You're not tabling the recommendation that I made, so you're making a separate motion. And I' ve got it. Franks: Is it agreeable to the commission to separate this into two separate motions? Happe: Yes. Spizale: Yes. O'Shea: Yes. Franks: Okay, then Todd's got the motion written down. Is there someone who would propose that as a motion? Hoffman: On the master plan. Franks: On the master plan for Arboretum Village acquisition. Happe: Yeah, I'll propose that motion as articulated by Rod. Franks: Is there a second? O'Shea: I second. Happe moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to prepare information on the demographic information of Arboretum Village and the surrounding neighborhoods, what is being considered in those amenity areas, an overlay of the neighborhood parks, and access to this new neighborhood park and what those amenities are as well. All voted in favor and the motion carried 6 to 0. Franks: That motion carries. The second item then is the award, put out for bid, letters out to bid for a consulting firm to go over the repair, 20 year repair and maintenance plan for park and trail improvements. Is there any commissioner willing to make a motion? Hoffman: This is something the City Council is asking for so. Happe: Yeah. I'll move that this commission recommend to the City Council that they direct staff to prepare letters, a letter requesting a proposal from professional consulting firms to help define and create a 20 year capital repair and maintenance plan to help us analyze and forecast future anticipated repair and maintenance costs. Franks: Is there a second to that motion? Spizale: Second. Happe moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to City Council to direct staff to prepare a letter requesting bids from consulting firms to define and create a 20 year capital repair and maintenance plan for the park and recreation department. All voted in favor and the motion carded unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0. Franks: That one carries as well. This created more work for you. 41 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Hoffman: It's been a heck of a night. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. Franks: Alright. Moving on to commission member committee reports. Paula, and I'll just jump in here. Paula and I are on the Community Center Task Force. Did I get that correct? Hoffman: Focus group. Franks: Focus, I'm sorry. I knew I wasn't going to get it right. I even brought my information. I should have looked at it. And we did have our first meeting, the first of two meetings that are scheduled, and they were interesting. One of the comments that I, one of the sentiments that I just want to put to the commission about this community feeling about the con~nunity center is the idea of creating the sense of community in the con-Lmunity center as opposed to just providing a fitness facility. And I was struck, because I didn't necessarily anticipate that idea, although it's near and dear to my heart. But it's something that people are really wanting to look for as almost more important than having aerobic equipment, that they're really looking for a place for the community to come together. So I'm not exactly sure how the next meeting's going to progress, and what's going to come of it so we'll keep you up to date. Hoffman: Receive today's e-mail? Franks: I did not. We're having so many problems with our server. Atkins: I had a few. Hoffman: This is fi:om., .sent out the synopsis, Franks: Oh I got that earlier. He said he was having trouble getting it to you, so it must have gone through. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: REVENUE PRODUCING FCILITIES~ COMMISSIONER HAPPE. Franks: Commission member presentations, and it looks as if we do have a con-unissioner member presentation. Happe: I, after the joint meeting we had with the City Council, did some thinking and a brief amount of homework on the, some ideas for alternative funding. Rod you mentioned that we'd love to have our cake and eat it too, and one of the ways that the Park and Rec Commission could help create a cash positive situation is by corning up with some alternative revenue generating ideas. I'm not an expert in city finances, but I did learn that there are different ways that the City Council has at their disposal, if we were to come up with a good idea, for a cash positive amenity. There are different ways that the City can have that amenity built without assessing taxes to do so. If you come up with a solid idea and a solid business plan and a solid revenue generating proposal that the facility could be built as a public amenity, using bonds or several other means to do so. Came up with some ideas. These ideas probably more are bad than good, but at least they'll stimulate some conversation or some ideas. The purpose of this list is not that we select or specifically focus on any one of these ideas, unless you guys happen to agree that one of them is 42 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 worth pursuing. The concept is just to begin the dialogue about some things that we could do as the Park and Rec Commission. Franks: Well let's hear your ideas. Happe: And we won't, Rod I'll spin through them very quickly. We don't need to spend any particular time on any one issue unless something pops out. Point 2. A few of non-traditional revenue concepts or ideas. Sale of existing assets. Anything that we have that would be non- essential or no longer needed in the city of Chan that the park and rec owns. An idea for dockage on city lakes that could be auctioned off to high bidders on an annualized basis as a means of creating revenue. An indoor golf arena. A golf dome with different amenities that could be added into that. A municipal liquor store. Several examples of several cities operating with cash positive municipal liquor stores, and really some interesting information out on the internet if that's something that anyone would want to take some additional, an additional look at including some existing consultant proposals for other cities. Municipal golf course. I'm not sure how the City of Chaska' s doing. I threw that out there just as an idea. A city owned indoor skating facility, maybe in conjunction with or somehow working in tandem with the community center. A teen club, an outdoor pool similar to the Edina pool that several of us grew up using. A non- resident activity indoor user fees for the public amenities that our taxpayers have already paid for, for outside groups coming in to use Chanhassen.facilities. I'll skip the next one. Increased concession presence at local parks. Again without my expertise knowing as to whether or not those are cash positive generating facilities or just amenities that we have. Events, special events that we could participate and facilitate such as circuses or other things coming to town. Amphitheater funded by future revenues from events that could be held at an amphitheater. BMX bike park on a pay to play basis. Indoor paintball. Tree farm using existing land to plant for the future per se. And the possibility of increased sponsorship of park amenities. Either from various social organizations within Chanhassen or individuals just with an accelerated attention to the fact that there could be opportunities for residents or community groups to help pay for in memory of park and rec facilities. So those are just, I mean just a few ideas. As I said, maybe more bad - than good but my hope is to get some dialogue 'going as to some things that we could do to think outside the box a little bit to figure out if there are ways that we can, with flattening to semi- declining park and rec revenues coming in, that might be ways that we could help determine some of these additional revenue generating concepts. Franks: Well I appreciate this...and I have a proposal for you. And that is that as part of the · commission we create a committee to explore these more in depth. Todd, do we have any interns working with the park department? We don't. Is that possible? Hoffman: Summer time. Franks: Well that just shoots my idea in the foot. What I was hoping is that this might be a project for an intern to work with the committee as a staff liaison person to really assist in a committee of commissioners. A committee of revenue generating ideas to really boil these down to the most practical and effective ways to the top, three top five, something like that and we could really take a look at, as a commission, and then really move forward recommending these ideas to the council and provide some direction about how we might do that. I really think that this is a great committee assignment and Commissioner Happe, since you've taken such wonderful initiative, I can think of no one more aptly suited to actually lead such a committee effort than as yourself. What I'd be interested in doing is seeing if there's two other commissioners. Three constitute a committee. 43 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Hoffman: I don't know that to be true. Franks: But we don't violate any kind of open meeting law by the committee meeting? Hoffman: None. Franks: Okay, so we can have 3. Hoffman: Four you would. Franks: I'm sorry. Hoffman: Four you would. Franks: Four we would, but 3 is okay. Alright. What I'd be interested then is if Commissioner Happe, if you're interested in taking on, what I'm considering to be not a short te~Tn assignment. Nothing that needs to happen immediately, but if there's two other commissioners who would be willing to join you in that effort, I'd really like to see that happen. Happe: I think it'd be a fun project. Franks: Great..Are there any other, are there two con-unissioners who would be willing to work with Dave in really taking a look at these things in depth? Atkins: I can't start until after Peter Pan next March. Hoffman: How's Peter Pan doing? Making any money. Atkins: Oh, we've got auditions in November. Franks: You see he's setting you up. Atkins: For what? Franks: You know does it make money? Atkins: Oh we make money. If we build a theater we can make money. O'Shea: I'd be willing to volunteer. Franks: That's great. Happe: Thanks Amy. Spizale: I would too. I think it's a great idea. Happe: Thanks Jack. Spizale: I think you've got a nice start on the ideas. There's some fun ones and some good ones and some bad ones. 44 Park and Rec Commission - October 22, 2002 Happe: Yeah there are. We'd love to have everybody just add whatever comes to mind and we'll keep it rolling and let's go until we start to go through a committee process with narrowing some things down. Franks: Well seeing that there are 3, and personally I don't feel it's appropriate for as Chair to really participate in that committee process so, on something like that so seeing that there are 3 members that are willing to form the alternative park and recreation revenue generating ideas cormnittee, what I'd be looking for is a formal motion to actually create that committee. Is there a motion to that effect? So moved by someone. Hoffman: It should be down there. Franks: Down here, by one of you. Kelly: Yes, I submit a motion to create an alternative park and recreation revenue generating ideas committee. Franks: Okay, with the nomination of. Kelly: With the nomination of Commissioner Happe as the committee chairman. Franks: And lnembers. Hoffman: O'Shea and Spizale. Franks: O'Shea and Spizale. Is there a second to that motion? Atkins: I second. Franks: It's been moved and seconded that this committee be created as a part of our Park and Recreation Commission. Kelly moved, Atkins seconded to create an Alternative Park and Recreation Revenue Generating Ideas Committee, consisting of Commissioner Happe as Chairman, and Commissioners O'Shea and Spizale. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 6 to 0. Franks: Great, we have a new committee. Appreciate that effort and your two willingness to participate in that as well. Wonderful. Alright. Let's move on to the Administrative Packet. Hoffman: There is none. Franks: There is none. Not in my grouping of papers anyway. Is there a motion to adjourn? Kelly moved, Spizale seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 45