CC Minutes 2001 12 10CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
DECEMBER 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen called the meeting to order at 7:10 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to
the Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Boyle, Councilman
Ayotte, and Councilman Peterson
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Teresa Burgess, Todd Hof'knan, Bruce DeJong,
Kate Aanenson, Jill Sinclair, and Kelley Janes
PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS:
Linda Landsman 7329 Frontier Trail
Julianne Ortman 8698 Chanhassen Hills Drive No.
Melissa Brechow 8634 Wood Cliff' Circle
Alison Blackowiak g 116 Erie Circle
Janet & Jerry Paulsen 7305 Laredo Drive
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to approve the
following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations~
a. Establish 2002 City Council Meeting Schedule.
b. Approval of On-Sale Beer License Request, February Festival, Lake Ann Park, Chanhassen Lions
Club.
c. Approve City Code Amendment to Sections 20-575 and 20-595 Requiring One Unit Per 10 Acre
Density for Subdivision Outside the Metropolitan Urban Services Area (MUSA).
d. Approve Amendment to the Planned Unit Development for Arboretum Business Park to Revise the
Permitted Uses within the Development Similar to the Permitted Uses in the Industrial Office Park
District, Steiner Development.
e. Resolution #2001-85: Receive Feasibility Report; Call Public Hearing for the Trunk Highway
101 Trail, Project 97-12-3.
f. Resolution #2001-86: Approve Change Order No. 2 to BC-7 & BC-8, Trunk Utility Improvement
Project 00-01.
g. Approve Water Treatment Request for Qualifications.
h. Approve Water Reservoir Winterizing Contract, as amended.
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
i. Approval of Bills.
Approval of Minutes:
- City Council Minutes dated November 1,2001
- City Council Work Session Minutes dated November 26, 2001
- City Council Minutes dated November 26, 2001
Receive Commission Minutes:
- Planning Commission Minutes dated November 20, 2001
- Park & Recreation Commission Minutes dated November 27, 2001
Partial Release of Contract for Private Redevelopment and Partial Release of Site Plan Agreement
for Lot 3, Block 1, Park One 4th Addition.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 5 to 0.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
LAW ENFORCEMENT & FIRE DEPARTMENT UPDATE:
Sgt. Dave Potts: Good evening Mayor, Council members. I got on quick this evening. Man, things are
moving along. That's nice. This of course will be the early edition of my monthly report. Normally I'm
here in front of the council later in the month, but of course that falls on Christmas Eve this year so I'm
here a little early. With regard to the attachments I have to my memo for the month, do council members
have any questions regarding either the Sheriff's Area Report or the Work Plan Summary?
Mayor Jansen: Any questions for Sergeant Potts?
Councilman Boyle: Just one. Under traffic, or am I jumping ahead? Maybe not. 2001 year to date shows
2,396 citations I assume. Versus last year we did 1,387. Or you did 1,387. That's quite a large increase.
Sgt. Dave Potts: Why don't you give me.
Councilman Boyle: That's down at the bottom. Second to the last non-criminal.
Sgt. Dave Potts: Where it talks about traffic?
Councilman Boyle: Yes.
Sgt. Dave Potts: Okay, traffic would include traffic stops that officers make. That would include people
calling in to report some traffic hazards. Something in the roadway. It includes quite a number of things,
not specifically citations. We do have a citation report that hasn't been available to the council for a few
months now due to our software glitches and our new record system. But hopefully, as I mentioned in the
work plan summary, the software is going to be coming along and improving as we go on here and we'll be
getting a little better information.
Councilman Boyle: Okay, thank you.
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Any other questions?
Sgt. Dave Potts: Okay. The only thing I have to mention then that was the robbery seminar that we did.
That was held, or hosted jointly by Chanhassen Crime Prevention and the Sheriff's Office. Was again on
December 4th at the Chanhassen Rec Center. Our Chief Deputy Denny Owens opened up with some
introductory comments and introductions of the speakers. I was the first speaker, clarifying the difference
between robbery and burglary because that's a common misconception that people have. Where burglary
is the breaking into a building or a residence, something like that and a robbery is taking property from a
person. Such as going into a bank and demanding money from the tellers, something like that. And then
went into explain how officers handle the initial call of a robbery, because a robbery is a very serious
crime. It's considered a crime of violence, whether or not any violence actually occurs. And then Detective
Roger Roach followed me and discussed the robbery investigations, but more specifically talked about our
Chanhassen robberies that have occurred. Kind of clarify some of the issues and misconceptions that some
of our business people might have regarding those incidents. Our County Attorney Mike Fahey followed
with discussion about prosecuting those cases and the follow-up from the County Attorney standpoint.
And Crime Prevention Specialist Beth Hoiseth finished up with talking about security policies, procedures
and employee training for businesses and services that she can provide. So it came off very well. We had
a lot of positive comments on it and something we'll probably look at doing in the future with just different
subjects that come to light from time to time.
Mayor Jansen: I'm sorry, did you say how many were in attendance at the seminar?
Councilman Ayotte: 14 businesses.
Sgt. Dave Potts: I was going to say between 13 and 15 businesses so I was pretty close there. And maybe
25-30 people in attendance all together. Something like that.
Mayor Jansen: Well very good. Sounds excellent.
Sgt. Dave Potts: Worked out well. Any other questions or comments from council?
Mayor Jansen: Thank you for including your work report. Work plan report from 2001. Appreciated
that. Everything looked fine there. Thank you.
Sgt. Dave Potts: Okay. And I will be getting council, I thought I'd just do it by e-mail. Sending out a
blank form for 2002 and then getting on the agenda for an upcoming work session of the council so we can
discuss that as we have in the last couple of years. Put one together for next year.
Mayor Jansen: Very good.
Sgt. Dave Potts: Thank you.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Have a nice holiday. And do we have a representative from the fire
department here this evening. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm looking straight past you Mark. Sorry about that. And
then our update on the fire department from Mark Littfin.
Mark Littfin: Good evening. Fire Chief John Wolff was not able to make it tonight. He's on a business
trip in Portland so I got the honors to stop over tonight. At our December business meeting we had our fire
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
chief elections and John Wolff was re-elected to Fire Chief of the Fire Department for the next 2 years so
everything will stay status quo on that. Calls for the year, up to about 736. We're about 66 ahead of last
year. We're anticipating anywhere between 790 and 800 calls by the end of the year. We're averaging
about 18 calls a week right now. Our divers were just in the, actually we're doing some ice rescue training
tonight on one of the ponds but it's getting hard to find ice even this time of year. But if we ever get any
and we have to go under it, we've got about 10 divers that are certified to go under the ice for rescue and
recovery if needed so we're continually training with that. Last month our new fire fighter probation
group, we just had 7 of them just pass the state certification test and our own in-house Fire Fighter I class
so we have 7 brand new Fire Fighter I candidates on our fire department that can all respond to calls. As
far as calls within the city or outside, we responded to one neighboring community a couple weeks ago for,
with our HAZMAT group to help them with a meth lab. Taking out the chemicals and inventorying and all
that so we're starting to see a little bit of that. We haven't had any major calls in the city other than an
occasional medical or car accident or fire alarm so nothing major on that. No anthrax calls along that line.
We did recently send out 2 checks to, from our fund raising. They were approximately $30,000 each. We
found a couple of funds that, in checking out how they were going to be distributed within the police and
fire fighters in New York, those were mailed out about 2 weeks ago. And we're just been approached also
by the Boy Scouts to see if they want to do any type of a Boy Scout/Explorer fire fighter program so we're
going to be meeting with them this week here so. Evidently there's high school kids that are on scouts that
are, could be future fire fighters so we're going to start tapping that resource.
Mayor Jansen: Oh, that sounds excellent. Great.
Mark Littfin: So looking forward to that. Any questions or concerns?
Mayor Jansen: Any questions for Mark at this time? No. No questions. Thank you for being here this
evening and the update on John Wolff being re-elected. Appreciate that. Hope you all have happy
holidays. Our best wishes back to the department.
Mark Littfin: Thank you. I'll pass that on so hopefully it will be quiet.
Mayor Jansen: Thanks.
DISCUSSION OF SERVICES TO BE PROVIDED AT THE CARVER COUNTY HOUSEHOLD
HAZARDOUS WASTE FACILITY IN CHASKA.
Jill Sinclair: Thank you Mayor. The Carver County Household Hazardous Waste and Recycling facility is
proposed to open on July 1, 2002 when the current facility, Field of Dreams Recycling Center will close.
The proposed services to be offered are equal to those currently offered at Field of Dreams with two
additional services. A product re-use area and an educational resources and materials area. County staff
informally requested the City to provide them with any additional feedback, service request or other
information pertinent to the operation. At this time staff would like City Council to provide them with
direction as to how to gather this information or public input and after compiling all that, staff would like
to come back say in January with that information and have recommendations for the council.
Mayor Jansen: Great. Thanks for the update. Appreciate it. And I think all of council received the
invitation to attend the Environmental Commission meeting that's this Wednesday evening, correct? To
take a look at the facility to get an idea of exactly what services are to be provided. And of course
Councilman Ayotte is our liaison on that commission. Councilman, will you be attending that tour?
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Councilman Ayotte: I'm out of town.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. I have it on my calendar. I will try to be in attendance to take a look on behalf of
the council. Unless anybody else wants to volunteer.
Councilman Labatt: I'll be out of town too.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. And then the Environmental Commission will be meeting and discussing needs and
issues. Okay. We did want to bring this issue to the public's attention in case they would like to bring
anything forward to the council or to the commission as far as any input that they'd like to have into the
services that the county will be providing at this facility. So appreciate your bringing this to us this
evening and we'll certainly maybe look to the Environmental Commission then for their advice going back
to the County if council's comfortable with that. Great. We'll wait to hear back. Thank you Jill.
CONSIDER ADOPTION OF 2002 BUDGET AND TAX LEVY AND CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT
PLAN.
Bruce DeJong: Mayor and Councilmembers. Thank you. We're reaching the end of kind of a long
process tonight. We've gone through preliminary levy setting back in September. Had some detailed
budget meetings looking at each one of the department budgets during the course of October and
November. And now last week we had our Truth in Taxation hearing where it was an opportunity for the
public to comment on the budget and the tax levy for next year. We received very few comments so it
pretty much remains an internal discussion regarding the amount of taxes to levy and the setting of the
budget for next year. What I'd like to do is go over some sheets that I had handed out to you, just for a
quick overview of where we stand. The first sheet is the stapled sheet with the 2002 revenue estimates
from December l0th. That's today. And as you can see on there, I have added a column for a 2001
estimated revenue. And gone through and looked at each line item in our revenue budget to see where it is.
Done some examination of what I think are likely to be revenues during the course of the month and come
up with an estimated total. That total is $7,158,000. When you look on the next sheet, which is labeled
2001 budget expenditures, I have added a column to that also and looking at that and reviewing that with
the several department heads, it looks like we're going to be having expenditures someplace in the
neighborhood of $7,171,000 during the course of the year. So we'll actually have expenditures exceed our
budget by about $13,000. Now that's an estimate at this time. We still have bills to come in and we have
allocations that we need to do out of the general ledger for things like interest revenue and some allocations
in a couple other areas, such as fuel costs and stuff like that. But those numbers are probably accurate to
within $50,000 one way or the other. So what you're really seeing is that this year the action of the council
last December really did work. We have an approximately balanced revenue and expenditure budget for
this year. Now what I'm proposing for next year is.
Mayor Jansen: Bruce, maybe before you move on from there. I don't mean to interrupt but part of the
challenge that this council gave you at the beginning of the year, faced with what the budget vote was from
the year before, was to make cuts and eliminate, it was $250,000 in expenses, correct? To balance the
budget. So if anything I want to give you credit, staff credit for having been able to go back in and make
necessary adjustments so that we wouldn't be using our reserves. And I'm assuming part of this also is
some of the land, the city land sales also coming in that's increasing the revenues to cover some of those
expenses. So it was through some skillful work on staff's part and that windfall if anything of the revenues
coming in on the land sale that helped balance this.
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Bruce DeJong: Well my efforts in this were pretty modest. I think a lot of the credit goes to the other
department heads in really trying to moderate their budgets as much as they can and a lot of the credit goes
to our city manager for being creative and really aggressively pursuing some of those land sale deals that
helped to clinch it.
Mayor Jansen: Very good, thank you.
Bruce DeJong: So that's a recap of where 2001 is. What I'd like to do it take you to the next sheet which
says 2002 budget expenditures, and that lists kind of a summary expenditure budget for each one of the
departments in our general fund. That's primarily where the tax levy goes to. What you see is a grand
total of expenditures for 2002, estimated at $8,118,474 and that ties out quite nicely with the 2002 revenue
budget estimate of $8,118,500 so that we do have a balanced budget proposed for next year.
Mayor Jansen: And that represented a 6 ½% increase in total, correct? 6.4%.
Bruce DeJong: 6.4% increase in expenditures from 2001 to 2002.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. What that really leads to is the tax levy sheet that is in front of you
showing the 2002 recommended tax levy. For the general fund that's the $5,346,000, which is a decrease
of a little over $500,000 from the preliminary levy that we put together. We also have a decrease in that
levy of $171,000 for the two general obligation bond issues which you have chosen to call about a month
ago. What that brings us down to is a tax levy that's gone down by about $177,000 from the preliminary
tax levy that was proposed back in September and it is an increase of approximately 21.4% over the
previous year. We've already discussed some of the reasons for that, and I won't bore you with that again.
But I think that this is a very reasonable budget and I think that it has not promoted any new programs. It
has not gone above and beyond anything that's proposed before. This really is a hold the line type budget
in that it's just strictly expenditure increases that are due to inflation and benefit increases. So with that I
would recommend that the City Council approve the budget as presented tonight.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff at this time on any of the information that we've
been given this evening?
Councilman Peterson: A couple quick ones. Bruce on the, what you just presented as far as moving those
bonds, paying them off, did you move all of them. We talked about last week moving all of them or some
of them, one of them at least off for another 2 years. Is that in or out of here? I'm trying to.
Bruce DeJong: That $220,000 is still included in the special assessment debt. That $1,134,000 figure.
That's there.
Councilman Peterson: So we still have the ability to bring that back in and lower the levy this year with
that amount.
Bruce DeJong: You still have the ability to reduce that by another $220,000. That is for the 91E bond
issue that you elected to call about a month ago, but our financial advisors recommended that we move that
to one of our other debt issues that has a very large capital payment coming due in 1994. So reducing that
levy amount in, or in 2004, excuse me, by the $220,000. That's certainly a legitimate council decision and
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
I don't have a great feeling one way or the other. I've talked at previous meetings about my desire to try
and level out many of those spikes in debt service as much as possible, but that's your decision as a group.
Councilman Peterson: A couple more questions. When you built the revenue, and built the revenue into
the budget, were you able to use or did you guess what the incremental market value of Chanhassen
residents properties would go up? I mean did you use 5%? 10%? And then if you used a number from the
county or yourself, how does that translate into potential increase in taxes?
Bruce DeJong: When putting together the numbers, I really don't take into account the increase in market
value. Certainly we're going to see an increase in market value from 2 ways. Well 3 ways really. The
taxable market value will go up by the amount that each person's house or property increased in value
during the course of the year. For residential properties that's really limited at this point by state law to an
8 ½% increase. There will be a difference between what's called the true market value and the limited
market value on someone's property tax statement. But we also have growth in the community through
new buildings being constructed or additions to property, so that would come into play. And we also have
for next year two TIF districts that will be coming back onto the general tax rolls. So I did not really
include those things in factoring that. Mr. Ruff did when he put together an estimate on the property taxes
for homes at various levels. And like we talked about last week, those showed significant decreases
between 6 and 26% on a majority of homes in the city. So how all those factors interplay with each other, I
don't really have the numbers to tell you and I never do have the numbers until so late in the process that
it's really almost impossible to factor it in.
Councilman Peterson: Would that be the same for the tax capacity? I've brought it up I think last week
too. The tax capacity of the city of Chanhassen went up by 14.3% from 2000 and 2001, which has a
dramatic impact on revenue obviously. I mean, have we factored in or do we need to factor in 2001 to
2002 because that will also have a tremendous impact on our revenue line. I'm just trying to help build a
better picture at least for the community that our tax base is growing, by some people's standards positive
when their market value goes up, but you know taxes go up too but our tax base is increasing at a rapid
rate which gives a higher up side potential for not needing as much to tax the citizens.
Bruce DeJong: Well that's, I think that gets to the point of confusion for a lot of taxpayers. Is that they
assume when their property value goes up, that we will automatically collect more in property taxes. That
really isn't the case. In most instances the only way that taxes go up on an individual property is when the
city levies more taxes on a gross basis. When the levy goes up is when we figure that the taxes really
increase. Because really we're not trying to manage the tax rate. There's 3 different parts. There's the tax
capacity. There's the tax rate and then there's the amount to be levied. And those factors interplay. As
I've mentioned before, if we had the same amount of property tax being levied from one year to the next
but all the properties in town went up by 100%, the taxes wouldn't go up by 100%. It's just that the rate
would fall in half so the same amount of taxes would still be levied, and so I want to try and disabuse
people of thinking that just because their value goes up, that their taxes will automatically go up. That's
not necessarily the case and I think as long as we moderate this growth in the general tax levy for the City
of Chanhassen, that we ought to be able to stay below the level of growth so that people's taxes don't go up
on a year to year basis as we go forward.
Councilman Peterson: Okay. A couple more questions. We've got two pending properties in the city of
Chanhassen, or pending sale. And one on West 79th and then the bowling alley property. I mean walk us
through if you would, what happens to those funds as they come into the process of the city.
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Bruce DeJong: The West 79th property is in the downtown TIF district so that money would go to fund
460 and reduce the amount of deficit, and that estimated sale price has been shown in there as a potential
revenue really for the last couple of years. We have a proposed purchase of that property but it's
contingent upon some leasing factors so I'm not sure if that will happen next year or not. But hopefully it
will so that money would not be available for general use. The sale of the bowling alley. There could
potentially be some but it's pretty minimal. We've already paid out an awful lot of money to actually
reclaim that parcel. And about $775,000 1 think to pay off the first mortgage on it and to pay off the back
taxes and I've forgotten what all the other expenditures are off the top of my head but they are significant
coming fairly close to a million dollars, aren't they Todd?
Todd Gerhardt: Well to satisfy the HRA's second mortgage on there of $140,000, some utilities
delinquencies that we had to absorb and some soft costs. And purchase price of that was a loan through
the city back to the EDA so there's some interesting carrying. We have this year's taxes carrying cost and
potentially until the sale prorated amount of taxes for 2002.
Councilman Peterson: Okay. Last technical question. And what I'm trying to paint here is, obviously
what we need to be concerned about to some degree is being able to pay off our TIF deficits down the road
if in the event that we do have them, and so as the potential sale of West 79th of $705,000 could fall into
that category of paying down debt on some of those TIF districts, as would the $1.1 million of bowling
alley cash, as would the $1.75 TIF grant that we just received, lowering down our potential risk for
covering in TIF. Then the last question is just, is talking about the general fund and we've got a certain
amount of cash there that is excess and that's in that $2 million plus range that we aren't required, I think
we're required to carry half of what the property tax levy is, is that right? Is that the.
Bruce DeJong: Yes. Your policy is established at carrying half of next year's tax levy on a proposed
basis. And the amount of state aids because those come to us, property taxes come in June and December.
State aid comes to us actually in July and December so we need to be able to cash flow our operations for
the first half of the year before we actually get the major sources of revenue coming in. You re-calculated
that on the sheet that I gave to you labeled available cash surplus versus potential commitments. And I re-
calculated to a date at about a million six. That's because our tax levy, because of the changes in state law
has gone up significantly from last year, and our state aid has also gone up. Well, our state aid's gone
down, excuse me. But we've taken some of that fund balance away or it will be taken away because of the
calling of those bond issues. That's going to be about $400,000 so we'll have someplace around, I think
it's $4.2 million. $4.3 million in general fund balance and we have well, $5.3 million worth of tax levy for
next year. Half of that would be about roughly $2,700. Subtract that from the $4.3 million that would be
available and the fund balance leaves you with the $1.6 that I've got on the page here under potential
available cash from the general fund.
Councilman Peterson: Yeah. Okay. Those are my detailed questions so far.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other questions for staff?
Councilman Ayotte: Just a, to make sure that I've heard you correctly and I think there's one point that
you made that I. Although the tax levy has gone up, we in fact, Chanhassen residents will have anywhere
between a 6 and a 21% property reduction.
Bruce DeJong: On their total property taxes.
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Councilman Ayotte: On the total property.
Bruce DeJong: Correct.
Councilman Ayotte: And that we do in fact have a balanced budget with about a $13,000 delta either side,
correct? So we're about $13,000 off with respect to your estimate?
Bruce DeJong: That's for 2001. For 2002 I'm proposing a budget that's essentially balanced.
Councilman Ayotte: Balanced. And we are postured to deal with servicing the debt. Those are the bottom
line points, correct?
Bruce DeJong: Yes they are.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay. The reason why I wanted to state that for clarification for me and also the
other folks who might be listening because I think we're in pretty good shape. And a lot of times when you
say we have an increase in tax levy, people don't make the connection with respect to property tax
reduction and that's the point I want to stress. And it is between 6 and 21.5%, in that ballpark.
Bruce DeJong: Correct.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay. That's my.
Mayor Jansen: In fact the decrease range that you gave us, if this is still accurate from the other evening
was to 25.7%. Very specifically Councilman Ayotte you were correct that the 6% on $100,000 home. I
just found this very good information for all of us.
Councilman Ayotte: I was just slapping on $200,000 because that's.
Mayor Jansen: $200,000 was 22.1%. On a $250,000 home it's a 24.3% decrease and on a $300,000
home, a 25.7% decrease in property taxes.
Bruce DeJong: Now those were based off of the values in the Truth in Taxation notice and without
decertifying the TIF districts. So I believe that those may potentially be higher than, the decreases may be
greater than I've shown you.
Mayor Jansen: Oh, that would be good news. Okay.
Bruce DeJong: But I do remember Councilman Ayotte's question from a week ago, really wondering what
lowering the additional $220,000 would be on an individual property, and I've got those figures. For
$100,000 house that would be $15 reduction next year. Going up to the $300,000 house, a reduction of
about $46 so there is some difference that would be noticeable but that's council prerogative to try and set
that. I just want to provide accurate information for you to base your discussion.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay, thanks.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Any other questions?
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Councilman Boyle: I didn't have any more questions. Excuse me Bob, are you done? Okay. That haven't
already been addressed. I want to say you and staff and everybody's come a long way since September
when we first got going on this. I compliment you.
Bruce DeJong: Thank you.
Mayor Jansen: Steve, any questions?
Councilman Labatt: I'll start out with first, the first time in 3 years we've had a balanced budget. Since
you and I, since we've been here so thank you Bruce and staff and Todd. But the second thing, I've been
whispering to Todd and passing notes back and forth here trying to decipher this police contract and I don't
know if now is the time to talk about it. To figure out what, how it all breaks down and how to read it.
Mayor Jansen: If you think it's going to affect the total amount that's actually in the budget, then
obviously we'd need to walk through it. If you need a better understanding of the numbers maybe more
time spent with Mr. Gerhardt or.
Councilman Labatt: Well that's what Todd suggested is we maybe meet this week with the sheriff.
Councilman Ayotte: Talk a little louder Steve.
Councilman Labatt: Todd's suggested maybe we meet this week and talk with the sheriff. He and I and
the 3 of us just to get these questions answered and try and figure out exactly where the multipliers and
dividers come from and what's the basis for these numbers.
Todd Gerhardt: Just for the rest of the council, this, the formula in calculating base line services and the
contract was kind of, goes back for several years when, I think it goes into where Chaska submitted a
lawsuit against Carver County regarding what base line services are going to be. And as a part of that, it's
a very complicated formula and I think what Steve's asking, that he get the opportunity to sit down and
understand that and go through it with Bud. I'd also like the opportunity to do that so. If worst case, that
we do find some bugaboos in there that it would go down probably more than go up and so, and if that is
the case we'd bring it back for your attention and modification.
Mayor Jansen: So as far as action this evening we could move ahead with budget and levy approval, and
any modifications to that you're suggesting would be going down so there revision would not affect how
much we'd need to be levying for.
Todd Gerhardt: Right. I would still recommend that you levy for the dollar amount established in the
budget. However if we're successful in finding some minor changes in there, that it would just be a surplus
at the end of the year for next year.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. I remember going through the formula back when we were evaluating that as part of
the task force, and it is quite complicated as far as figuring out what exactly all it is so, certainly it
wouldn't hurt, and especially Mr. Gerhardt for yourself to be familiar with how that's calculated for us.
Okay. Any other questions then tonight Steve?
Councilman Labatt: No.
10
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Okay. If there aren't any more questions for staff, we can move onto comments. If
council has any specific comments that they would like to make before we go to vote.
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, ifI could just add one item in here. As I was reviewing the council's salary
survey, one of the things that jumped to me today, and I tried getting a call into Roger but I think he was on
his way here, is for special meeting pay. With the City Council now serving as the EDA and going to the
different commission meetings, I would recommend that this council modify their ordinance and taking into
account special meeting pay for City Council members. And I would suggest that you use $50 for each
special meeting with a maximum of $150 per month so there could be no question of abuse and I've
attended 5, 6, or whatever type special meetings. But with the number of Southwest Metro, the different
Highway 212 meetings that we're having these days, the EDA meeting and meeting with the bowling alley
property, you're meeting almost bi-weekly and I don't think you should serve as a council member and lose
money on the deal. I think you should be compensated for those and would ask that you direct the City
Attorney to prepare a modification to the ordinance for pay compensation. This would not affect the 2002
budget as I understand it. It would be for the following year, 2003 that we would have to budget for that
and I make that recommendation.
Mayor Jansen: So it doesn't take effect until 2003.
Todd Gerhardt: That's correct.
Roger Knutson: Mayor, just point out by state law you can't have a change in your salary until after the
next election. You have to adopt it now. The effective date is after the election.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Okay, so council comments also on that modification or we can certainly consider
it. Would you need approval this evening or is that something you're throwing out just as a
recommendation for us to?
Todd Gerhardt: We would have to draft an ordinance modification and bring that back. I guess I was
looking for direction. You can either comment on it or I'll just put it on your next agenda and you can
comment at that time. I just wanted to let you know that I think it's important that we make that
modification.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you.
Councilman Peterson: I had one more question for Bruce. What are you estimating, at one point in time
you were estimating 3% for 2003, as far as an increased levy. Is that still where you're at?
Bruce DeJong: Well I wasn't really estimating that. I was just using that as an example I guess. I have
not done any real budget projects for 2003. Just using that for illustrative purposes.
Councilman Peterson: But assuming you had no increase in the core budget, in the general fund area, all
your other ones would remain the same. 3% would be your approximation, is that reasonable to say?
Bruce DeJong: That's probably pretty reasonable. Someplace in the 3 to 4% range, yeah. Depending on
inflation. Depending on benefit costs and things like that.
Councilman Peterson: Okay, thank you.
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen: Depending on what other changes the legislature decides to throw at us. Okay. At the
beginning of this whole budget process back in July, council had directed staff to make any appropriate
budget cuts that you possibly could. Specific direction was that we not affect any of our current service
levels and that was primarily, though I think the entire council had that philosophy, direction to you
originally as we were looking at any revisions we needed to make to this year. Our community survey had
come back and said that we had 58% of our residents who would oppose cutting services to decrease taxes
and so I think we all felt as if we were inbetween a rock and a hard place because also our highest concern
amongst our residents is our high taxes. So how do you reduce taxes and not affect the service level? And
given that challenge, all of staff and you gave credit to the other department heads. I'll give credit to all of
the department heads as well as yourself and our city manager for going back and rolling up your shirt
sleeves and seeing what you could do within your own individual budgets. And I know that everyone rose
to the challenge and brought forward what you could without cutting services, some proposals on materials
and some of the behind scenes points to get those cut. So I do want to give credit to staff for having
identified some of those costs and then also to yourself and I assume the city manager for having looked at
our debt levy and the philosophy that you've been promoting since we've started in these budget
discussions and Councilman Labatt mentioned, this is our first balanced budget in the 3 years that we've
been doing the budgets. You've continually professed that we should have a balanced budget, meaning our
annual expenses covering our annual, covered by our annual revenues. To have you look at that debt
service levy and how dramatically it increased last year. It was increasing again this year. You identified a
couple of the bonds that we could defease saving our taxpayers what, the $171,000 in the debt levy this
year. $220 that you're now recommending as more prudent to do on a future issue, but also you quoted to
us a $250,000 savings in interest on those bonds, which again goes right back to our taxpayers pocket so
you double saved them in taxes within the levy this year, in the future levy and then cutting down the
amount of interest that they were paying. So I really give you great credit and I admire the fact that you
were able to really look at that and come up with a one time expenditure. That was what you've said all
along since you joined us here at the city. If we can use our cash reserves for a one time expenditure so
we're not having to keep anniversarying that same expenditure and somehow cover it, that would be the
prudent thing to do. And not only did you accomplish that, but you started whittling away at what is our
biggest problem and that is our debt. And have taken those reserves and started to work on that situation,
you've saved us additionally in interest and I think you deserve a great deal of credit for having brought
that message to us continually. Stuck to your guns and applied it as well as you executed it this year to
help us reduce this levy, and give tax decreases to the community in spite of the fact that we had a, what
was it, a million 2 in HACA and state aid that we ended up losing that we needed to make up. So you did
have to do some creative moves to benefit our tax payers and keep our services at the level that they are so
I give you great, great compliment for having accomplished that and helped with our long term situation.
You've given us a best case and a worst case and heaven knows, the numbers are far apart and we certainly
don't have a crystal ball to look at that so all we really can do is implement a strategy as conservative as
we can, at least initially until some of these worst case scenarios play themselves out and we as a council
can be more confident about the action that we do end up taking with this cash. Because though we keep
saying that we have this surplus, it is all basically on reserve to cover our deficit. It's not as though we're
sitting on this golden egg that isn't in fact earmarked for something. And now you've already used
$400,000 of cash that we have to save us money additionally as well as trying to take care of some of that
problem. So I just have to give staff great credit for what they brought forward to this council this year as
far as this budget and how you worked on it. And how much it improved since we passed the preliminary
levy. We always end up passing those saying, okay. This is the worst case scenario and just hoping that
we can reflect some changes by the time we hit December and this certainly is an improvement. So thank
you for addressing that. Any other comments for staff? Otherwise I will call for a vote.
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Councilman Peterson: I've got a few comments before the vote. I think that philosophically Bruce and I
have over the last year and a half went around and around on, and what I said actually last year is, is our
glass half empty or is our glass half full and I'm a proponent of it's half full, and I think Bruce would agree
with that and you can speak up if you don't. We are a city that I think is not in financial desperate stakes.
We are a city with a lot of cash, as our bond raters have noted numerous times. And this year in particular
our legislators have said that they wanted the lower tax rates across our communities and I think now,
today we're afforded an opportunity to give Chanhassen those lower rates and Bruce has said, they are
going to be lower, even with this 21% increase, but the legislators were expecting more than that. And
that's really what I've been struggling with is how to get them, our residents lower tax rates. The residents
in the survey have said that they want lower taxes and they have found it prudent to ask us to find ways to
do that. The TIF issues that we've talked about are issues in 2004. They're not issues that are going to
happen in the next year or 2 or 3 years and they're issues that if we use surplus funds that we clearly have
today, we can deal with the 2004 issue in 2004. Or 2003 we can refinance. That certainly is certainly a
opportunity that we can do. And you know I mentioned before that our tax capacity is increasing at an
increasing rate. That's a great thing. An absolutely wonderful thing that I think we have to factor in that I
think staff has done a good job of looking at alternatives but I think they're conservative that I think our
capacity is growing and revenues will be increased. The issue about the 91E bond, you know I think
there's an opportunity that we can move that bond up and not go out in forward years and save another
$220,000. But it comes back to available cash and potential commitments and Bruce's estimate tonight,
you know worst case is, $2.9 million in negative cash or $3.5 million potential surplus. And again that's
years down the road and I'm offering to my fellow councilmen tonight that we have an opportunity to wait
and see. We can use the excess cash that we have today to give the city more time to see if we actually
need to tax the citizens to meet that capacity in 2004 and beyond. And we've got more cash coming in with
the potential sale of the 79th Street property and the property in the bowling alley. So we've got a lot of
positive things happening and it doesn't preclude that the legislators won't help us with those TIF issues as
they did this year down the road. I think that one of the comments that Bruce made a few weeks ago,
maybe a month ago about not wanting spikes in revenue and taxes and I guess at a minimum I think fellow
counselors should look at if, at least look at saving, moving the tax impact from all in 2002 to 2002-2003.
So that our citizens aren't hit with the 21% tax increase in one year, even though it's being decreased.
Remember our legislators wanted that number to be higher. And we're taking that away so I think as we
continue talking and as we vote tonight, I think those are important things to keep in the back of our minds
is that we have cash. We're not short on cash. We're not going to be short on cash for potentially years
and we can move that risk out. Make that decision when we have to. We don't have to do it now.
Those are my comments.
Mayor Jansen: And though I certainly believe that all of council would like to be able to present a better
picture to our taxpayers, we have all received from the financial advisors a studied recommendation of the
best plan and the best action that this council can take in order to protect the future of Chanhassen. If we
don't deal with the problem right now and we do what's in our best interest as elected officials to make
ourselves look better, and we take all that cash and throw it at lowering the levy, we walk away from our
responsibility to this community for the long term and we leave our finance director with quite a situation to
have to deal with in 2004. I can't be that short sighted. I have to be a partner with staff. I certainly am
responsible to the community but I think the community relies on us to make the best advised decision that
we can. We're not financial experts. Though we know bottom line what we would like to do for the
community, we have to do it in the best interest of the long term for Chanhassen. So I look at the action
that Bruce has put before us and recommended as far as being able to decrease some of this deficit, at the
same time benefiting our taxpayers, we're at least taking a more conservative action. Yes, there is cash
13
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
that's there. It is earmarked for a reason and their recommendation has been to not use the excess cash but
to keep that on hand so that they can have their options open to them as things occur. If you throw away
your emergency reserves, you certainly can't react to some of these situations that have the potential of
arising. We would leave another council in the position of figuring out how to make that work and I would
rather take the measured approach that is being presented to us and take those conservative steps and give
staff time to come up with some of these alternatives, like defeasing some of the bonds. We talk about
refinancing, and I look at this $250,000 that we're saving our community in interest, and there's a whole
debate that could occur around what the philosophy should be there. The benefits are in the community
currently and the TIF district and the funding was used for the downtown improvements that are in place
now. And there is that philosophy that if the people who are using those improvements should be paying
for those improvements and unfortunately some of these things just haven't been addressed well and we've
been affected by the legislator and I'm certainly not throwing stones but it certainly makes it interesting as
a city finance director to try to figure out how you do some of the forecasts, like this budget. A big chunk
of what we're having to make up in our levy amount, though the legislators wanted to pass along a higher
decrease to the taxpayers at the same time they took away our state aid. And we then have to levy for that
so there's a lot to that formula that the taxpayers at least through this action are still getting as high a
decrease as we can manage and it sounds like that may even increase as Bruce continues to see the numbers
come through on the actual properties. So though I realize your philosophy and what you would like to do
and certainly make a big impact to our taxpayers, I would tend to go the more conservative route that's
being recommended by staff and by our finance advisors. Other council comments.
Councilman Ayotte: Well I certainly know what 2 of the votes are going to be. Before I go onto that, two
sides of it. One of the things that Craig has done is provided some intellectual stimulus to look down the
road. I'm not in agreement with Craig's position for the here and now but I think what Craig has presented
is a catalyst for, not only a catalyst for thought but to keep on digging on looking down the road in 2003.
We're voting for a very specific period of performance and I think some of the dialogue that's occurred
should remain in the cranium and should be references for discussion as we go along because it is dynamic.
It is not static. And one thing that I think that I've been schooled in is the fact that as we go forward
alterations can occur in thinking and in philosophy, but at this point in the game I'm on the conservative
side but I want folks to realize that it is a continuum and that the next step might be changed based on
outside influences. Once the $2 billion issue is resolved at the state level and a few other things, it's going
to be other forums for discussion so it's not a yes, no tonight. It is a benchmark tonight. It's a balanced
budget tonight and for opportunities down the road. So what I'm saying to you is although I don't agree
with you totally at this point, I think some of the points that you've brought up are important to keep in
mind and as a reference as we go down the road. Okay. And I want to say that publicly. And now you
know where my vote's going to go.
Mayor Jansen: Okay.
Councilman Boyle: Are you all done Bob?
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah.
Councilman Boyle: Craig, you made some very good points. Some very good points and I agree with what
Bob said about looking down the road a little further. I'm going to take the more conservative approach of
holding onto our emergency fund. I think it's very important at this particular point in time. Nobody wants
any worst than I do to reduce that levy and save more money for the taxpayers this year but I don't want to
do something that would cause maybe a bigger problem a year from now or 2 years from now. I believe in
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
holding onto the funds. When you look at why the levy increased, we've got a library referendum that's
coming into effect. We've got a park and rec referendum. These are things that taxpayers asked for that
they want. We also know that the state giveth and the state taketh. And they took back another million
dollars so somewhere in there we have to make that up and still not make it a humongous burden on the
taxpayers so once again I think staff did a tremendous job under some very difficult challenges.
Mayor Jansen: Steve, anything to add?
Councilman Labatt: Just short. I was conservative last fall and the fall before that and I'll be conservative
this year too. I believe in having the life vest... I took us on the cruise one year, remember that? We
packed this whole life vest in life boats so Bruce is doing it again this year so appreciate Craig and his
wisdom but I believe in conservatism so let's move on.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. With that if I could have a motion for the 2002 budget adoption.
Councilman Boyle: I'll make the motion that the 2002 budget be approved as presented.
Mayor Jansen: And a second?
Councilman Labatt: Second.
Resolution #2001-87: Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to adopt the 2002
budget and tax levy as presented. All voted in favor, except Councilman Peterson who opposed, and
the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1.
Mayor Jansen: And the vote passes 4 to 1. Moving onto part (b) of our discussion, the capital
improvement program adoption. Staff report please.
Bruce DeJong: Mayor and council members. We've gone through another long process with the capital
improvement program and this is really forecasted expenditures for major capital outlays we recorded for
the next 5 years. So this includes expenditures for next year and also some estimates from 2003 up
through 2006. At the last council meeting you made a couple of modifications to this. The first is moving
the fire department, the underwater or dive team boat back 1 year to determine really the necessity of
having another vehicle, another watercraft for them. And the other thing that really happened was we
changed the park and trail item number 28. That was duplicate of the Bandimere to Chanhassen Hills for
$200,000 and changed that into the City Center Commons landscaping because that just came up recently
so, and we moved that from 2003 up until 2002. With those modifications you have in front of you and
approximately $36 million worth of expenditures over the course of the next 5 years, but they seem to be
fairly straight forward. There wasn't a lot of contention amongst the council members regarding any of
these projects and I would recommend approval as presented.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff council? No questions. Any comments?
Otherwise I'll call for a motion.
Councilman Ayotte: Did we resolve the issue, never mind.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. I'll never mind. Can I have a motion please?
15
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Councilman Labatt: I will move that we approve the capital plan as recommended by Director DeJong.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Do I have a second?
Councilman Boyle: Second.
Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to adopt the 2002-2006 Capital
Improvement Program as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 5 to 0.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. And thanks again to staff. That was a long process and appreciate all of the
number crunching that you did on our behalf and answering our questions and those of the public so
appreciate it.
DISCUSSION OF LIBRARY INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR DESIGN.
Public Present:
Name Address
David Happe
Conrad & Lois Fiskness
Linda Landsman
Julianne Ortman
Melissa Brechon
Kathy Perschmann
Councilman Ayotte:
5 bricks.
604 Summerfield Drive
8033 Cheyenne Avenue
7329 Frontier Trail
8698 Chanhassen Hills Drive North
8634 Wood Cliff Circle
I'm a little concerned about this presentation. They brought bricks in with them. 4 or
Mayor Jansen: They haven't resorted to throwing their bricks yet.
Pat Mackey: After your long discussion, this is kind of a pivotal point in what you do every year. If you
want to go and take a break.
Mayor Jansen: Do you need time to set up?
Pat Mackey: We're going to set up...
Mayor Jansen: Appreciate that. We'll take a 5 minute break. Thank you.
The City Council took a short break at this point in the meeting.
Mayor Jansen: We'll go ahead and resume the meeting. Thank you. We have two representatives here
from MS&R. Pat Mackey and Leanne Larson. Appreciate your coming tonight.
Pat Mackey: Appreciate you having us. A little background here. Where we are at this point of the
library and design. The last time we talked, we talked about or the last several times we've talked, we've
talked about the exterior. First of all was placement on the site of the library and then a preliminary
16
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
interior layout of the library. Thus far council has signed off on the siting and certain aspects of the
interior layout. I'd just like to bring you up to speed very briefly on where we sit in the process and in the
plan. We're in the middle of construction documents right now. We've got 7 or 8 weeks until we want to
bid this. At this point we are fairly.., to make sure that the water stays out and the building stays warm.
At the same time really the final effort is on to nail the interior details and make sure everything goes
together as we had intended. With that we'll jump to the plan here. This is a, although nothing major has
changed from the kind of the elements of the library plan since the last time you've seen it. I'll walk
through very quickly here. You can see the entrance of the library is on the north near the parking drop off
that sits to the southwest of City Hall which is roughly right here. As you come in, now there's a lobby, a
lounge and a couple of associated spaces. Vending display area in the front and corridor to the meeting
rooms over here. The toilet rooms flank both sides of that hallway at which point there's a security gate
that can be deployed across this opening allowing use of the meeting rooms, toilet rooms and this lounge
while the library is closed. When the library is open, this gate is open and there's a circulation desk here.
It won't be this curved shape but again we're kind of thinking of things faster than we can draw them on
the plan so there will be a couple instances where I show you something and it's not really, I'll try to point
it out. An immediate peel off to the children's area right here which prevents kind of the traffic of excited
children through all comers of the library. They'll be able to peel off pretty quickly into this area. There's
a story area for the children here and then access to the meeting room for when they've got large group
presentations. On the center here there's the reference desk which is kind of the our intended destination for
most people as they enter the library. Up to this side there is the intemet, the audio visual and some of the
new books features off to this side. A lot more of a retail kind of environment. We say retail rather than
something like a large stack just because this is where the popular materials are. It's lower fixtures. It's a
more open and kind of browsing space. Off to this end of a main cross bind, which then defines this
portion of the building. Off to this end there's a 20 person conference room and on this end is the teen
room which is set off of the teen and young adult area right here. A little bit of a microcosm of the library
collection at large. It's got teen periodicals, teen fiction, teen non-fiction in their own area with a little bit
of a different feel. A little bit of a different d~cor off to themselves. Beyond the reference desk is the
reference area. Fairly self explanatory. All sorts of reference materials and electronic resources. The non-
fiction area over here with plenty of reading and study tables throughout here. Three little break out areas,
actually two that we're calling porches which are seating and more casual reflecting areas. Over here's the
fiction area with the higher fiction stacks. Some more reading study and then back here the periodicals area
which is, well the status, the popular periodicals and newspapers. Back issues of periodicals. Some
reading areas. Double faced fireplace and some seating lounge space up here with good daylight coming in
from the southwest. Is there anything on the plan that anybody has any questions about?
Mayor Jansen: Councilmen?
Councilman Ayotte: I do have a generic question, not with respect to the specifics of the plan and I should
have called Todd about this earlier today but I didn't and it was something that occurred with the
discussion I had about a Hennepin County building. Hennepin County building downtown Minneapolis
where they've had to do some things since 9-11. And the Hennepin County building is a very poorly
designed building with respect to the concerns that have been raised since 9-11. It's a wonderful building
so on and so forth but for security purposes it has some significant drawbacks. Is there, is it out of the
realm of possibility to have a look see with respect to... developed for our building? Should that be a
concern? Am I being over concerned? Before we go too much down the line. What would it take to have a
9-11 reference point?
17
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen: I guess I would suggest that maybe some of the specific questions be shared with Mr.
Gerhardt so that.
Councilman Ayotte: I don't have specific questions. I'm asking with respect to whether or not it makes
sense to even.
Pat Mackey: It does and actually we have, through the code review or plan review with the City of
Chanhassen. The 9-11 events were obviously unique in that, from anybody's but one in that the very
buildings themselves were used as really weapons and elements of destruction. What has been addressed
here, where it really wouldn't, the specific point that was addressed here was ensuring that, in the case of a
fire, or an intentional aggressive action, somebody were to close this gate and trap a portion of the people
inside, you know primarily a crime reference more than anything else and we've altered the plans or we're
in the process of altering the plans to provide more ways of egress, even concern when this gate is closed.
Normally we would consider that this gate would be open at all times that egress would be necessary
because if there's a fire at midnight, yes it's a tragic thing but nobody's going to be in here. There's a lot
of books and a lot of property damage but the life saving issue that's. We're open to hearing any concerns
because.
Councilman Ayotte: I'm not an expert. I'm just raising the issue as to whether or not it should be, not here
tonight but referenced as a point to be considered for discussion.
Pat Mackey: Certainly. Well the learning curve on everybody is...
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, who the heck knows.
Pat Mackey: ... so it's a relevant question.
Councilman Ayotte: Alright. I'll give you a call.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Anything else? Alright, thank you.
Pat Mackey: That walks us through the plan. Maybe we could march, walk briefly through the volumes
and while right now this looks a little bit like a pancake, you may remember on the model, which we don't
have, although we do have building elevations with us, is that the bulk of the building is, well it's entirely a
one story building but there are higher volumes, higher masonry volumes at the meeting room and a clear
story vaulted ceiling at the entry area here. Obviously this tall central spine with a vaulted ceiling up
around 22 to 24 feet, and the periodicals area which is also a tall open space. Just to give you a sense of
what the up's and down's of the space are. The ceiling in this area is more or less 10 feet high, which is
about the height of the ceiling in this room. The ceiling on the other side, the south side of the spine is more
or less about 13 feet 6 inches high with some vaulted coves. So we're talking about a fairly tall space with,
punctuated by even taller spaces. I think at this point with reference to this plan, Leanne should start
walking you through the interior finishes. I guess before that happens is the point that we're looking to
reach tonight is not a final sign-off on all these colors and materials. On all these colors because there are,
you know an endless variety of colors and endless choice of one op's and tweaks. What we're looking at is
approval of the materials and the selected material types such as carpet, wood species, even wood. Counter
top material. Where there's paint. Where there's not paint. Where there's fabric. So that we can continue
on with our detailing and our cost estimates. After this point certainly colors of paint may change. Colors
of all kinds of materials, tile and tack board and fabric can change, but at this point of the sign off we're
18
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
looking for is on materials. That being said, these are our recommendations having done this a few times
and also having worked with the building committee on the library stuff.
Mayor Jansen: And that's the key to what Pat just said as I'm watching the panicked expressions on a
couple council faces. Your committee has, the building committee has reviewed the materials so what was
presented has already been reviewed by the building committee and what you're seeing is what is being
forwarded, mainly to see you know if we're completely off as far as what, how you foresee it furnished as
far as carpet or not. And that's why Pat just went through the fact that we're just looking for more the big
scope approval from you and then otherwise, the types of materials. And then there will be, we've got one
public hearing also scheduled so that the public can also see the selection as far as some of these generals.
It's not set in stone from here but in order to bid it out, some of the larger parts of the project like carpet
are included. Wood species would be included in that bidding process so obviously you know paint color
can change. Those sorts of things can change and it's just the direction on material that we're.
Pat Mackey: What we're not showing tonight also is furnishing. Furniture because that's a separate
contract and that requires quite a bit more work. That would be coordinated following the lead of the
selection of these materials.
Councilman Peterson: I guess I'm somewhat confused. I would have presumed that we would have
formally approved the building architecture 100%. Went through Planning Commission before we started
picking interior selections, and maybe I'm missing something but that would have seen the logical way to
proceed.
Councilman Ayotte: How about the design standard too? Do we do the design standard in with that too?
Mayor Jansen: The Planning Commission has had the review of the exterior of the building. I'm not sure
what exactly, because it went to Planning Commission for review then to ourselves for review on the
exterior. The site plan came through. Then the exterior came through. You've done 2 presentations to
Planning Commission, haven't you?
Pat Mackey: Yes. One as a sign-off and one as more of where we are today.
Mayor Jansen: Okay.
Councilman Peterson: My assumption was we hadn't approved the formal building plan yet. Maybe I'm
wrong, or maybe I was out that meeting but. I could be wrong. Have we formally approved the building
plan?
Mayor Jansen: Were you not here that meeting? I don't remember. When Pat brought in the, you brought
in the model at that point correct?
Pat Mackey: Right, with the exterior materials. The brick, copper and windows.
Councilman Labatt: You must have been down with the kangaroos in Australia.
Councilman Peterson: That could have been.
Mayor Jansen: I don't recall.
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Councilman Peterson: Could have been. I just, I guess I haven't, in my mind I'm not past the building yet
SO.
Pat Mackey: They're being brought up more or less at the same point and there are certain characteristics
of the materials that are going to lend themselves regardless of the configuration of the building to certain
areas. You're going to want harder materials in your entries. Quieter, softer carpet and stuff and so forth
in your stack areas.
Mayor Jansen: Todd, could you just make sure that Councilman Peterson gets a copy of the color
renditions that we had had of the exterior. I think those were brought up to date with all of the
improvements. The exterior, yeah. Okay. And if you could do one of the color photos like you did with
the interior materials, that could be very helpful. Did you receive those over e-mail? Okay.
Pat Mackey: We've got those here referenced tonight.
Mayor Jansen: For the exterior, okay.
Councilman Labatt: Craig, do you have this?
Councilman Peterson: No.
Todd Gerhardt: That's the interior.
Mayor Jansen: That was in the packet for tonight, wasn't it?
Councilman Peterson: Oh this packet, yeah.
Todd Gerhardt: Not the exterior.
Mayor Jansen: This is in the interior. Okay, we'll see if we can get one of these for the exterior then.
Todd Gerhardt: We didn't put one of those together for the exterior. It was just samples that were...
Mayor Jansen: Planning's looked at it.
Pat Mackey: Looked at material and in conjunction with the model. Material and siting.
Councilman Peterson: Have you discussed the, going back to the interior. What the plan is, you know
we're not going to fill the library up the first year. How do we transition the library from being half full to
full in 5 years or whatever the percentage actually is? Has that discussion, I don't want to reiterate the
discussion but I think that has to some extent impact on how you decorate it too.
Pat Mackey: To some extent. Yeah, it affects the furnishings. A couple ways to do that is, generally the
short answer is that is to spread the collections, spread a smaller collection out over a larger area say in any
given 7 foot tall shelf you've got 6 shelves. Until you have the collection that will fill all those, you don't
shelf the bottom or the top. You put fewer books on shelves. You buy all the shelves. Keep them in
storage knowing that you'll need them and that you need to buy them as a system at one point, but you'll
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
also provide more talk right off the bat, more seating and more study tables. Then as your collection grows
and gets more dense, you first fill all those shelves and then second you can either increase the density of
the shelves which is less common now or just push tables out of the way. Take tables and chairs out of
circulation to accommodate more shelves. It is a common problem with building library collections. How
to not appear empty on opening day or the first year.
Mayor Jansen: So why don't you go ahead with the interior material review and council, just don't panic.
Unless there's something that really just stands out as something that you don't feel you're comfortable
with, thank you.
Leanne Larson: Okay. I set up the table to correspond with the handout that you have so you can kind of
look in both places. However the color rendition, we have those handouts as you can see are not 100%
accurate. It's best to use the actual samples. I think I'm going to just talk about the flooring materials first
and then we'll work our way up to the walls from there. The major portion of the library will be carpet.
I'm recommending that you go with carpet tile, for a couple of reasons. One is flexibility. The other one
being it's durability and ease of maintenance. The portion of the building that I'm recommending to be
carpet would be from the security gates inward. The children's area. All the public space here. The
meeting room. And possibly the work room, although I've got another option for that as well. It's
linoleum so we can talk about those two issues as well. Going back to the carpet tile, there's 4 samples laid
out on the floor here that give you a better sense of what it is. I don't know if anyone is familiar with
carpet tile. They come with a vinyl backing to it and so you simply glue this down with a green.., adhesive
material directly to the concrete floor. And what that does is say you spilt something on it and you clean it
and just can't get it off. Although... but if for some reason, you know maybe something happens and it rips
or something and you have to replace the tile. All you have to do is, there's this thing where you can, it's
kind of like a suction cup thing. You put it on the carpet and the just go, and it lifts it off. You just take
this up, throw it away. Put down the new carpet tile and it will look like new.
Councilman Ayotte: Do you have to keep those on, do you have to keep x number on hand for repair? For
replacement.
Leanne Larson: Usually what we do in a base bid of the carpet is, we tap out a certain percentage and then
just keep that in the storage room so that way the dye lots are the same carpet and they'll match.
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah. And the selection that you've made is there, for life cycle concerns and
interest, you know you buy this lot this year. In 5 years, have you taken that into consideration so that the
lot doesn't go away in year 3 and then.
Leanne Larson: Right. The issue with carpet in general, any manufacturer that you go with, the possibility
that they'll discontinue a color is always there. The great thing now.., what the original carpet was and it
should not be a problem to go back and manufacture the carpet to match what we have.
Pat Mackey: With the 10% tile excess pretty well covers that. I mean this kind of product is tested for
durability and a wear that you're not going to need to replace it... unless somebody comes in and takes a
torch to it.
Leanne Larson: Right. A couple things about the carpet is, the backing itself is made out of 100%...
material. It's a vinyl composite so that means that if you do spill something on here, coffee or something, it
won't soak through to the backing which is important for a couple reasons. Say like a typical broad loom
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carpet which is what this is, if you spill something on this it will soak direction into the backing of that
product and even though you clean the carpet and it looks like you've gotten all the stains out, you can
come back in a couple of days and the stain will reappear.., and that happens because the backing soaks up
the stain and it's virtually impossible to get it off of the back. So what this does is, it will never penetrate
this backing so you'll never have that problem. The other great thing about this carpet is, the.., which is
what all these colors are, is 100% solution dyed nylon so that means that the color is put into the fiber
during the manufacturing process so while it's a liquid rather than like a stain of yarn that's dipped into
something to get your color.., so you can clean this stuff with bleach and it won't take the color out.
Pat Mackey: So that was one of the, as far as durability and the weave, the color fastness of it and the
easy ability to replace it if something does go wrong. Another aspect is that, as Leanne has shown,
depending on which way you orient the grain of it, you can create fields in different patterns showing
where, you to highlight different areas. Traffic patterns here. Fields and the pathways as well as you can
take another supplementary color or complimentary color. You can mix it right into the system and create
patterns that way. There's just a great flexibility here versus a one sheet of two acres of carpet where
you're going to get a lot more obvious...
Leanne Larson: Right. One of the big issues with carpet installation for a typical woven product or a
broad loom is getting the seams to match, especially when you do a pattern. And with this product we can
make a pattern and the seams or where the carpet tiles come together, laying it down...
Pat Mackey: Unless you choose to. Unless you make it... So while we're not saying this is the final carpet
color, we are, everything has to start with a major portion here and the carpet is kind of a foundation upon
which a lot of the other materials are selected. So while paint colors can really change, and the carpet
colors can change, one thing that is fairly integral here is not only the carpet system but some of the colors
in the carpet. Some of the ideas that we're recommending and that have been well received by the building
committee.
Leanne Larson: The next flooring item that I will show to you is terrazzo flooring, which I'm sure you're
familiar with. It's used a lot in schools. Commercial buildings where there's high traffic. And I'm
proposing this for the vestibule area of the lobby into this lounge space and then it would stop at the
meeting room doors. We're also suggesting that we run it into the bathrooms as well. Terrazzo is a
mixture of ground up aggregate and marble chips and then they pour it on site, it's an epoxy material.
Resin and then they grind it all down and then polish it. So basically with terrazzo our colors frankly are
limitless. Our patterns are limitless. You can, we were talking about putting the Chanhassen maple leaf
symbol either in a pattern in the carpeting, which would be easy to cut at the factory and then installers
would just put it together kind of like a puzzle piece, or we could pour it separately in another terrazzo
color to compliment this in a central lobby or maybe in this lounge area. Again, terrazzo's extremely
durable. It basically doesn't wear out. It's more durable than a concrete which can crack. We control it
with joints... Questions about that?
Councilman Labatt: So you're able to select your own colors in that?
Leanne Larson: Yep we can. You can pick out what you want the background color to be and they can
tint it to virtually limitless possibilities.
Councilman Labatt: So if we wanted to make our maple leaflike in a fall color rather than...
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Leanne Larson: No, I think this would be like more of a field color and then we can go in with other colors
of terrazzo and.
Mayor Jansen: And they can do it solid.
Leanne Larson: And you can even specify how big you want the aggregate chunks to be. If you want it to
be bigger than this, we can say that or if we want it to be really tiny.
Councilman Labatt: Well I think that'd be neat but just as long as you get the color of leaf is...
Leanne Larson: Other flooring material that I was alluding to earlier is linoleum and linoleum is also a
natural product material. It's made out of linseed oil and cork. Ground up cork and ground up wood and
there's two other things I'm forgetting. Oh yeah, it's got a jute backing. There's also limestone colors.
And it's extremely resilient. It's very quiet. It hardens over time so it actually extends it's life long. It's
life span is extended as time goes on. Easy to maintain.., dust mop it daily with a dry mop and then weekly
with wet mop it.
Pat Mackey: Just part of a, no real special building maintenance for any of these.
Councilman Labatt: Does that come in a tile piece like that or is it?
Leanne Larson: Oh, I'm sorry. This comes in roll goods. They're usually 12 foot rolls and then your
distance is limitless.
Mayor Jansen: And that would be in the work areas, correct?
Leanne Larson: Yeah.
Councilman Labatt: That will be all in the staff area, not the public area?
Leanne Larson: Right. Staff areas. And again you can get many different colors. You can do patterns.
You just heat weld the seams. Moving on then.
Pat Mackey: Just moving on in order of prominence or level.., material. Obviously there's going to be
quite a great deal of carpet. Even smaller, although a great deal of terrazzo as well. Your next, besides the
paint colors, the next greatest impact the material's going to have is going to be the wood species because
this is going to affect the finish carpentry. Certainly the library shelving and millwork and equipment. So
there's going to be a lot of this if you don't like it.
Leanne Larson: So what we're recommending is going with a clear finish cherry. Plain...very soft. It's
not like an oak that has, that oak door where you see the really strong zebra stripes, yeah. And cherry, a
couple characteristics about it is it darkens over time. So when you first open up the library everything will
look lighter and then as the sunlight hits it, cherry ages. It will darken. It's not going to get that dark but it
will turn a little more, a little deeper.
Councilman Labatt: Is that a laminated cherry then or is that solid cherry?
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Leanne Larson: This one I have right now is just a laminate veneer. It's actual wood. It's just not solid.
It's not a hardwood piece but we would do it so the, all the millwork faces would be a veneer and all the
edges that get a lot of abuse would be a hardwood piece.
Councilman Labatt: Okay.
Leanne Larson: Then paired with the cherry on all the service desks, the reference desks and the circulation
desks, we're recommending you go with a granite countertop. A black color. This one is, it has a finish on
it called a diamond A finish which is unique to this company. It's a special processing finishing process
that they perfected... Anyway, the great thing about this finish is, it's not polished, this piece. So it doesn't
reflect as much light. It's not as hard on the eyes. And it doesn't show fingerprints like this will. So that's
why...
Pat Mackey: It's just a good, nice matte. Gentle looking. It's all, you know still as hard. Still as durable
but for some reason the shininess of this kind of stone is a little off putting to some people. It just seems
harder and colder than something like this. Now to all of these, or to many of these finish choices we've
got alternatives here. We've brought them along to kind of show you, if you have questions. What were
some of the ones that were not chosen. We can get to some of those but.
Mayor Jansen: Why don't we stay with the selections.
Leanne Larson: So the wood would be all the millwork, all the end panels, we'll try to match all the
furniture to be cherry as well. All the trim for the baseboards and public areas would be wood. Public,
let's see. The staff area' s baseboards would just be a mild base. Basic color.
Pat Mackey: This for reference is the, representative of the exterior brick. Obviously it's more than just
one color. There's a little bit of a mix like the wall behind you, but some of the brick is also brought inside
as well along this major circulation spine down this way. So again, part of the, a lot of the materials have
been chosen for their coordination with the exterior building materials which were already chosen.
Leanne Larson: Just another way to tie it all together. Another material that, if I can hand out, what we
have here is just a plastic laminate. What your countertop is there. This would be for back of the house.
Staff counters, as well as some of the public rooms. Maybe the study rooms. Those would be plastic
laminate. They would have a wood edge so again keeping in mind that durability issue where you're going
to rub your... All of the hardware will be antique bronze. So that's like the door handles. The window
trims are also this dark bronze color.
Mayor Jansen: Is that the highlight of all of the major materials then? As far as what you need to have
designated that council is okay with your materials.
Leanne Larson: Yeah, why don't we talk about a couple of the ceiling issues.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Okay.
Leanne Larson: There's a few areas.., some of the areas are jib board. Painted jib. Other areas is the
acoustical ceiling tile.
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Pat Mackey: Just a white, a lot like the courtyard conference room upstairs. There's a ceiling tile up there
that's, it's similar. It's a little more textured than we'd be using but it's the 2 by 2 lay-in ceiling tile.
Acoustic ceiling tile.
Leanne Larson: And then a few areas have fabric wrapped acoustic ceiling tiles. So it's just something
like this. It's a.
Pat Mackey: Well it's kind of a burlap finish. It just knocks the sound down a lot better in areas like
children areas where you're just want to tame the sound a little bit better. It also offers a little bit more
design flexibility. There are more colors available and you're able to do patterns and kind of achieve some
nice effects with this. There are also longer panels that aren't in the 2 by 2, and this is obviously just a
sample. There are other products that are available in more linear patterns. So you can make a really nice
kind of featured ceilings, say in the lounge area or some of the areas.., and like I said, it knocks down sound
because with the terrazzo floor, or a hard surface floor area, you're going to want something to really
knock down the reverberation. If you have a hard ceiling and a hard floor, you're going to get a very
acoustically active space that is, for a lot of people uncomfortable.
Leanne Larson: The only other ceiling finish that I should mention is, we're proposing to do another ceiling
wrapped panel in this main spine area, and this is the fabric that we're thinking about. This is a tapestry
that kind of echoes what's going on in the floor so they'd be hung at what, 22?
Pat Mackey: It's an arch so it's low end is about, slightly under 22, 21 feet. It's high end is up around 24.
I'm probably getting those numbers wrong but you get the idea that we're quite a ways up there. And it's
another way to get a good feature and some good color reflections off the ceiling. Another bit about this is
that this is up in the ceiling and it's lit from below and it's immediately inside the clear story windows. The
high windows that are running all along this spine so it's a good way to get colored light spilling out of
those windows visible for quite a distance away. So it's one of the approaches that we're taking to that, the
high windows throughout here is looking at just how this is going to appear at night. Or at 4:00 in
December. How we can really start to animate some of the outward appearances of the building other than
just with the exterior materials.
Leanne Larson: And the one other material I will mention that's shown on your drawing is this, is a mecho
shade. All the windows will be, you know it's a roller shade so you can pull it down. The great thing
about this is, if you hold it up to the light you can see through but it still blocks out the light. And having a
neutral color like this, it will kind of just blend in with the walls. The higher windows we'll put it on a
mechanical switch and just keep the switch down...
Pat Mackey: The nice thing about this stuff is, as Leanne said, you can pretty much look it up, if not
directly at, comfortable in the direction of a sunset through this stuff. I've done it. It's kind of amazing. I
mean you can, it's a little bit of a veil. The other thing is, the alternative to this is mini blinds or blinds or
some sort which tend to collect dust and tend to, once they get jarred or out of alignment, they don't look so
good. When these aren't in use they just roll up into the window head and go away. So we've had great
success with them in a lot of libraries. In rooms that otherwise would be unusable during certain portions
of the year when the sun is just really cruising along the horizon. There are certainly, you know we've all
been in rooms where it's just uncomfortable to be sitting in that much glare. I think that covers the families
of things that we're talking about. We have a ceramic tile in the bathroom walls. Solid surface at
bathroom counters. Things that we're looking at because we've seen other products, other finishes put in
there and we've seen them start to come apart after a couple of years so we're trying to keep in mind, not
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
only the appearance of these things, also the maintenance and certainly the durability here because there's
going to be quite a few people using and abusing the new space over the next several decades.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you very much. So council, any questions at this point for the consultants on
any of the materials?
Councilman Peterson: I guess comments more than anything else. I think that generally I like the color
selection. My only concern is really cost. I mean from what I look at and my knowledge of building
materials, you're in the upper cortile at least, if not higher on cost versus other alternatives and that
generates some angst as to, are we going to lose functionality because we're putting so much in the finish?
You've got some very expensive stuff there. Very expensive stuff.
Pat Mackey: It is. Some of it is. One thing that has to be factored in though is the nature of the public
building, and something like an internet counter or certainly a circulation desk is, if Melissa's projections
are correct, and we have every reason to believe them, that somewhere in the neighborhood of a million
books will be pushed across this surface in a year. And if not, if she's way off, then half a million. That's
quite a lot to ask of a material. We're, I think everybody can appreciate the value of doing it once and
having the top last a long lifetime rather than replacing it 3 or 4 times. You're right. To answer more
directly to your point. That's factored in when we're talking about a $6 million library. We know through
the numbers of, this is the kind of class of library we're looking at with our costs per square foot figures,
these, this family of materials is figured in. We could go a lot, a lot more expensive. We could go a lot
cheaper but we found this to be, well the family that, or the range of materials that just kind of works. It
hangs in there. Another thing is we're trying to keep it to something that's not going to get obviously as
dated. You don't want to be replacing something before you have to just because everybody comes in and
says wow, that's really ugly.
Mayor Jansen: I think the one bid alternative that you mentioned was potentially on the wood species?
Leanne Larson: I've got another sample here and this is oak, like the door but instead of plain.., like with
that door you see the grain, this is ridge cut. So you'll always get this straight row of grain. And then they
stained it to be a natural cherry color. So this would be a deduct alternate when it goes out to bid. So if
this comes in too high, then we'll see what the price was on this and we might have to go that route. And I
think with this too, you know it's still, it works in the whole scheme of things.
Mayor Jansen: I think you explained that there could be a swing in the price of species depending on the
time that this was.
Pat Mackey: ... cherry from day to day cherry will cost this much or that much. But maybe more to the
point, there's only a certain number of materials that are going to perform to the satisfaction and say across
the range of granite versus a solid surface which is another material we look at quite often. In this case,
first of all they're running right now about neck and neck to install and there's quite a bit of quantity in
bulk. In the areas where we're, we've got great quantities, carpet, we're pretty convinced that carpet tile is
the way to go. There's nothing wrong to go with roll carpet but just for the design aesthetic and kind of the
durability, carpet tile's not going down or drastically, well I don't know. Is it about neck and neck?
Leanne Larson: It's comparable with a woven carpet which is typically, if we don't go with carpet tiles,
what we recommend for libraries, just because you know it has to last for 15-20 years so, and we know
that and.
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Pat Mackey: We're within the, at the last estimate, which is always revising, we're within where we
wanted to be. We're within the budget. It's just that the nature and the kind of abuse and wear and tear
that these buildings get, even if the public weren't in here running a book cart across the carpet is a terrible
thing to do if you want it to last so we have to kind of go with this...bullet proof carpet. Right now we're
still on, we're confident that, we're always wary of it and we're always a little fearful that forces outside
our control are going to take over but we're confident still to this point. It is expensive but it was within
our numbers.
Councilman Peterson: Just remember, just because you've got a balance in your checking account doesn't
mean you have to spend it.
Pat Mackey: Just because you have checks doesn't mean. The bulk of the materials, I mean
overwhelmingly is drywall. It's a steel structure. Fairly straight forward structure. The drywall, you
know it's paint. Paint, you can get a range in paint but we're looking at, you know if we were hanging wall
tapestries on every wall, etc, there'd be a good reason for concern but we're kind of hitting the, a little bit
out of balance here because most of what you're going to see is carpet and paint. Just as far as...
Mayor Jansen: You might show your images at this point. That might be the best visual impact.
Pat Mackey: Thank you. What these are, and I said something early on about to take these with a little bit
of a grain of salt because the colors represented here are electronically modeled facsimiles of what you've
just seen first hand. What this is is more, intended as more of a key of what this space and how the
material and colors would be arranged. If you can zoom tighter on this. What this is, is a view down the
large central spine towards the teen area. So this direction is north. We're looking west out onto, I'm
sorry, we're looking.
Mayor Jansen: East.
Pat Mackey: What looks like an endless sky but what we would be looking at right now is the building and
the bank beyond. We're looking in that direction. You can see the carpet here again, the color didn't come
off exactly faithful to what we're looking at. Some of the brick. Higher vaulted space with some darker
accent paint and you can just see some of these ceiling panels peaking out from beyond these.., beams.
Here's another view of the space. What we're looking at here is roughly the area of the central circulation
or reference desk looking back towards almost the same direction. Slightly more to the north. Just again a
feel for the space. The type of light fixtures that we're starting to look at indirect, bold, pendant fixtures
and what some of these colors and the tones are what we're trying to flush this out. Again, there was an
image circulated to the building committee and depending on what printer we print on, it's just very hard to
get a accurate depiction or even a consistent depiction so that's why we bring the real materials so we're
treating this only as a reference.
Mayor Jansen: ...throughout, though they're beautiful.
Pat Mackey: And the paint may change. You know we don't want to fluctuate wildly but we're still
recommending a pallet and we're trying to get to a warmer, more. If you're putting up 20 to 30,000 square
feet of paint in a color you don't like, again it, make sure you like it. So we're working with the building
committee. Library staff... We get the benefit of seeing hits and misses with a lot more frequency than,
there will probably be only one major library built in Chanhassen in the next year or two so we're trying to
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
take advantage of all the resources available to us to look at other people's work and see what's working
and what's not.
Mayor Jansen: Great, thank you. So as far as the list of materials and the major materials, is council
comfortable with the proposal that's been, as it's been brought forward? As far as going out to bid on
carpet, wood species and so forth.
Councilman Boyle: You know Linda, I'm not an expert at this. I kind of wonder, we have experts here
making a recommendation. We've got a building committee that's recommended. I think as long as it fits
in the budget I'm a happy camper.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other comments? We are scheduled to have a public review, show and tell of
the interior materials on December 20th. We did want to be sure that as we are approaching that, that
council's in the loop and comfortable with where we are so appreciate your having sat through the building
material review. And I should have mentioned before we got started, this almost feels like a library
building committee meeting. And maybe for the council's benefit I should point out our building committee
members. Linda Landsman is the Carver County, or sorry. Chanhassen representative on the Carver
County Library Board. Melissa Brechon I think everyone knows. Our Library Director. Dave Happe is
our citizen at large representative on the committee. And then Lois Fiskness is the representative from the
Friends of the Library on the committee so I mentioned to council earlier as we were having a conversation
around the landscaping, how dedicated all of you have been because this has turned into multiple meetings
and reviews of materials and I think all of you have also participated in the public hearings. At least come
to hear first hand any of the comments that have been shared so we certainly appreciate your dedication to
the project and again I think you've all been here also for the council meetings each time we've reviewed
this for appreciate your time. Thank you. Thanks.
APPOINTMENTS:
Mayor Jansen: If council doesn't mind, shall we flip flop A and B and have a conversation around the
water treatment project advisory committee since we have staff here?
Councilman Ayotte: Yep.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Why don't we start there. Staff report please.
WATER TREATMENT PROJECT ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
Teresa Burgess: Thank you Madam Mayor and Council. This evening we are asking that the council
name the members of the water treatment project advisory committee. We have, in your packet you should
have applications from 9 committee applicants. We are recommending this evening that 3 to 4 of those
applicants be named to assist staff in selection of the consultant with the entire 9 being named to the project
advisory committee for the overview of the project and assisting in that direction. However, because we
will need to meet several times on a relatively quick basis, we'd like to only have 3 or 4 named for selection
of a consultant. And if there are any questions I'd be happy to answer those.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Any questions for staff at this time? Council? Okay. Okay, then if we could
have a recommendation then for the appointment of the 3 to 4 members to the committee. That or you can
put it in the recommendation. Put it in the form of a motion.
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Councilman Boyle: I would move that Angela Bober is it? Larry Anderson and John or Jack Thorson be
appointed to the water treatment project advisory committee. These members will interview the consultant
firm, recommend a firm for consideration by the City Council, advise the consultant firm and act as liaison
to the Chanhassen neighborhoods. In addition, Mark Anderson, Glen Gerads, Nan Nelson, Dale Dawson,
Colleen Weber, Tim Savaloja, are also named to serve on the project advisory committee to advise the
consultant firm and act as liaison to Chanhassen neighborhoods. Did I get all the names?
Councilman Ayotte: I think you missed Thorson.
Councilman Boyle: Thorson was on the committee. Advisory committee.
Mayor Jansen: I didn't check them off as you said them. So the appointment to the PAC of the 9 members
will be Mark Anderson, Glen Gerads, Nan Nelson, Angela Bober, Dale Dawson, Colleen Weber, Tim
Savaloja, we've probably now all massacred it. Larry Anderson, and Jack Thorson. Just so we know
we've gotten everyone named.
Councilman Boyle: Yeah, they're all there.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, great. If I could have a second to the motion please.
Councilman Ayotte: Second.
Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to appoint Mark Anderson, Glen Gerads,
Nan Nelson, Angela Bober, Dale Dawson, Colleen Weber, Tim Savaloja, Larry Anderson and Jack
Thorson to the Water Treatment Project Advisory Committee. Angela Bober, Larry Anderson and
Jack Thorson are also appointed to serve on the committee to assist in selecting a consultant. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 5 to 0.
Mayor Jansen: And we certainly appreciate all of those residents stepping up and offering to serve on this
committee. We certainly appreciate their involvement and dedication to doing that for us. Thank you
Teresa.
Teresa Burgess: Thank you.
COUNCIL APPOINTMENT TO THE SOUTHWEST METRO TRANSIT BOARD.
Mayor Jansen: Then going back to item 6(a). The council appointment to the Southwest Metro Transit
Board. We covered this a little bit in the last meeting. I think Councilman Labatt was absent and we
managed to resist appointing you. The conversation involves the appointment of one member to the
Southwest Metro Transit Commission, which is a joint powers agreement that we serve in with the cities of
Eden Prairie and Chaska. And this is my position that I've now held for the last 2 years. It's typically a 3
year term. I've been on for 2 years, but at this point if there is someone else. The City of Chanhassen has
handled it differently in the past. I'll clarify since you're wondering about my 2 terms and this being a 3
term office. In the past the Chanhassen representative has turned over annually and the commission has
always recommended that there be at least a 2 year term, if not a 3 year term so that there's at least some
continuity and that you don't constantly have the learning curve to catch up on with issues on the
commission. So we did extend it. This council extended my term for another year so I did serve 2 years
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
and now it's typically up for reappointment at this time. So whatever this council would like to do. I've
served for 2 and if someone else would like to now serve on the commission, I'm certainly willing to step
down and have someone else have the experience.
Councilman Ayotte: I'm going to be, I think this water treatment activity is going to be pretty intense. I
don't see my ability to do that and the Environmental Commission and this. I just.
Mayor Jansen: Certainly understood. And we didn't discuss that this evening but you have also been
appointed to the same commission that we just named the residents to and we appreciate your stepping up
and serving in that capacity.
Councilman Labatt: What nights does this meet?
Mayor Jansen: It's the third Thursday of every month.
Councilman Ayotte: In the evening?
Mayor Jansen: Yes. At 6:00.
Councilman Boyle: Where?
Mayor Jansen: At the transit hub in Eden Prairie. There are also two committees that are also represented
by the commission members. You only need to belong to one. One is the development committee. The
other is the budget committee. It's just a smaller subset that does the review before it comes to the
commission. But those are not frequent meetings.
Councilman Boyle: Steve, I'm not throwing my name in the hat so it's all your's.
Councilman Labatt: Craig?
Councilman Peterson: I just worry about my travel plans. I travel an average of about 3 times a month.
That's usually on a Wednesday, Thursday timeframe so that's my only concern. I don't want to say yes.
I'd be interested in it but I'm afraid I'd miss a third of the meetings so.
Mayor Jansen: This is the type of a commitment that I think is significant enough to Chanhassen because
of the fact that it is a joint powers agreement. There are financial decisions involved. There's development
that's occurring at the hub. We do need to be well represented at the meetings in order to be able to ensure
that Chanhassen's interests are being best represented. I complimented Mr. Gerhardt earlier today in that
Julie Hoium, am I pronouncing that correctly? Is the staff liaison to the commission and she has been very
consistent in being present and before her it was Cindy Kirchman. No.
Todd Gerhardt: Kirchoff.
Mayor Jansen: Kirchoff. And I would say Chanhassen staff was the most diligent in attending the
meetings. And the best informed as far as what was going on with this commission. So if my time
commitment needs to be to hold that position and make sure that we will monthly have a representative
there, I would certainly step up for another year. I can't go beyond that, but I would just inform the
commission that I would be taking it on for another year. Not a 3 year term. But I'll throw that out as an
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
option. This is one that I have been very consistent in attending and I do participate on the, I'm on the
budget committee currently. And then I have served as the commission's representative to the STA, which
is the Transit Authority's. So you've got Burnsville. You've got Maplewood and all of the other opt out,
but that's been by choice. So that again we're just in the loop with some of the other opt out's and I can
then be aware of what's going on with the other opt out's to best direct Southwest Metro. So it can be a
larger time commitment if you choose to make it that.
Councilman Labatt: So it meets on the third Thursday, and what time do they start?
Mayor Jansen: At 6:00.
Councilman Labatt: How long do they typically run?
Mayor Jansen: They can go til 9:00-9:30. I don't think we've ever gone later than that.
Councilman Peterson: The committee is the same night too?
Mayor Jansen: Typically they try to schedule those prior to the meeting. Otherwise we've held quite a few
morning meetings due to other people's work schedules. And then there's a citizen representative, rider
representative, Randy Herman who has served on the commission for gosh, I want to say yeah, quite a
while so at least we have that consistency too. And he's just been an excellent representative of the
community. He's very financially conservative and has given good direction to the commission and to
staff.
Councilman Peterson: Well Steve if you don't want to do it, I'll do it. How's that?
Councilman Labatt: Well I was thinking about doing it. What I was thinking about doing is asking you if
I've got a conflict, if you'd be willing to.
Councilman Peterson: Easy. I mean that's not ideal for the group but I think we potentially.
Councilman Labatt: Well it's better than having nobody there.
Councilman Peterson: Exactly. I'm very open to that. Absolutely.
Councilman Labatt: So, why don't we do that. I can do it.
Mayor Jansen: Somebody quick make a motion. Can I have a motion please.
Councilman Ayotte: So moved.
Councilman Boyle: Second.
Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to appoint Steve Labatt to the Southwest
Metro Transit Commission. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 5 to 0.
Mayor Jansen: And if there's ever anything that I can be of help with, just yell. Okay.
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
COUNCIL/COMMISSION LIAISON UPDATE.
Mayor Jansen: Any reports from commission liaisons.
Councilman Boyle: I'll be meeting with the Senior Commission next week from Friday.
Mayor Jansen: Great. Okay. Very good.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS.
Mayor Jansen: Anything under Administrative presentations?
Todd Gerhardt: Just that we continue our discussion on the selection of a landscape architect.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. So if we can maybe finalize now our discussion that we began in the work
session on the selection of a landscape architect for the library project. As to how council would like to
proceed with that. We've now at least had a touch base and a glimpse of what this project could entail and
council at work session has suggested that we approach the library building committee to see if it's
members, who have been so dedicated in their service, would step up and also then provide some guidance
and assistance on the landscape piece for the commons park that will be right next door so we will be
approaching the building committee members to see about doing that and adding some additional
representatives. We talked about adding a commissioner from the Park and Rec Commission. Craig
Peterson would like to serve as an additional council representative on the committee and oh, we'll be
approaching the Chamber of Commerce to appoint a representative on behalf of the businesses. Did I get
all those? I think those were the 3. I said Parks and Rec. Okay. So at this point where we left that
discussion was deciding how to proceed with the selection of a landscape architect. Whether we should go
ahead and work with the landscape architect who's working with the building architect on the landscaping
right around the library, or if we should be going out with an RFP as far as selection of another architect.
Anything you'd like to add?
Todd Gerhardt: No. The fees are going to fall in pretty much at the same level. We did the same thing
when we selected architects. It was pretty much at that same rate. I think the architects were around the
9% area and there was no wiggle room there but if you wanted to designate a flat rate fee, you could do
that. But sometimes you wonder what you're going to get for that too.
Councilman Ayotte: Is there any risk with the current architect that's working with the library architect?
Mayor Jansen: You know one of the pluses I guess that's standing out to me has been his dedication to
coming to the public hearings. It certainly wasn't something that was a requirement, but in his mind to
truly have a feel for what the whole breadth of the project might be, though he was focused on what was
happening right around the library, he attended those public hearings to at least get a sense of what his part
of the project would need to look like.
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, I guess that's my point. We've got so much ground that's been gained already,
A.. B. Your point that we want to have a concept in place by ground breaking of the library, and if there
isn't much risk to it and if there isn't anything inappropriate with respect to not sending out an RFP, why
not?
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Councilman Boyle: I'd like to make a motion that we accept Damon Farber and Associates.
Councilman Peterson: One more question. How did he go about, excuse me. How did he go about bidding
the percentage if we're going to do it in phases and we end up with a million dollars in landscape
architecture over 5 years, is he going to put a percentage on a million dollars?
Todd Gerhardt: Why don't you allow me, I mean if Damon is the one you want, how about between Roger
and I we work out a contract system with him that works into the phases. That you do maybe a flat rate on
the design portion and then percentage based on the different phases. Have you done that before Roger?
Roger Knutson: Yes.
Mayor Jansen: So why don't we go ahead with a motion to recommend that, you know directing staff to do
that.
Councilman Peterson: Didn't you just do that?
Councilman Boyle: Well I'm going to.
Mayor Jansen: So at least we're on the record approving.
Councilman Boyle: Right. I make a motion that we approach Damon Farber and Associates for a contract
for landscaping beyond the library. How's that sound?
Mayor Jansen: Appropriate? Okay. Do I have a second?
Councilman Ayotte: Second.
Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to appoint Damon Farber and Associates as
the landscape architects for the City Center Commons area and direct staff to prepare a contract for
City Council approval. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 5 to 0.
CORRESPONDENCE DISCUSSION. None.
Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to adjourn the City Council meeting. All
voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:45 p.m.
Submitted by Todd Gerhardt
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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