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CC Minutes 2002 10 14CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 14, 2002 Mayor Jansen called the meeting to order at 7:05 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Boyle, Councilman Ayotte, and Councilman Peterson STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Kate Aanenson, Teresa Burgess, Justin Miller and Todd Hoffman PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS: Debbie Lloyd 7302 Janet & Jerry Paulsen 7305 Tyler Stein 1594 Linda Landsman 7329 Jake Klatt 2475 Molly Bizek 8750 Michelle Spieker 8417 Mike Sitter 9249 James Montgomery John Berg Uli Sacchet Laredo Drive Laredo Drive Lake Susan Hills Drive Frontier Trail Christian Drive Powers Boulevard Rosewood Drive Lake Riley Boulevard 8360 West Lake Court 760 West Village Road Planning Commission PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: Approval of Agreement to Permit the Issuance of a Building Permit for a New Home Prior to Demolishing the Existing Home, 6250 Ridge Road, Mark & Connie Brabec. g. Villages on the Ponds 7th Addition: 1) Final Plat Approval 2) Approval of Construction Plans & Specifications and Development Contract Project 02-12 i. Approval of Bills. Approval of Minutes: - City Council Work Session Minutes dated September 23, 2002 - City Council Minutes dated September 23, 2002 Receive Commission Minutes: - Planning Commission Minutes dated September 17, 2002 - Planning Commission Minutes dated October 1, 2002 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Approve Request for Site Plan Approval of an 8,300 sq. ft. Restaurant with Variances, 550 West 79th Street, Infinity of Chanhassen, LLC. 1. 2002 Trail Connector Project, Change Order No. 1. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. ADOPT THE 2001 MINNESOTA MANUAL OF UNIFORM TRAFFIC CONTROL DEVICES AS THE STANDARD FOR ALL TRAFFIC CONTROL IN THE CITY OF CHANHASSEN. Mayor Jansen: Typically when we remove things from the consent agenda we move them to the end of the agenda for separate discussion. I don't know how quick these items are. Okay, I'm seeing Councilman Peterson suggesting they go to the end. Councilman Labatt? Councilman Labatt: Item (b) is just, I'd like to actually pull it and have a chance to review the code before we adopt it to see what it all entails as far as, ifa resident wants to appeal. If they want to come in and ask for a stop sign here or there, and the code says this, what recourse does the residents have, so just take some time to, I want to review the, whatever it's called. The Minnesota Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices. Mayor Jansen: Okay, and you have that in your office Teresa? Teresa Burgess: I have that in the office. It's approximately 3 ½ to 4 inches thick. Councilman Labatt: I've looked at State Statute books before so. Teresa Burgess: It's not a statute. It is a policy of the Minnesota Department of Transportation, and there is no recourse regardless of whether the council adopts or not. We are required to follow that manual. Tonight is a formality because it does cause some confusion in the residents but this is an adoptive policy of the City of Chanhassen but they still have to abide by it. So I can certainly make that available. You're welcome to come see it. Councilman Peterson: I think to Steve's point, I guess we're talking about it now then. My concern about it was that when we adopt that, are we putting the onus upon that policy to dictate whether or not, if the citizens want a stop sign in a neighborhood, and that policy says that we shouldn't have one, then we're not going to get one? Teresa Burgess: That policy governs anyway. Even though, even if, whether we adopt it or not, the policy by law on a public street we are supposed to follow it. There are some built in places for judgment calls, but it does, we are required to do it. By State Statute we are supposed to use it on all public streets. If you go into a private setting, they can put stop signs up anywhere they want to. If you choose not to adopt it, we will still have to follow it. The reason for asking the council to adopt it is because of the confusion it causes for some of the public that we have not adopted it so why are we following it? Councilman Ayotte: Is it time line driven? It's in place now. We've been going along as we have been going along for a long time. Teresa Burgess: We received the updated copy in September, and have been following the revised updated copy since September when we received it. Prior to that we followed the, I don't City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 remember the date. It's about 10 years old. A previous version of the Manual Uniform Traffic Control Devices. Mayor Jansen: So what you're telling us is this is just simply a technicality. That this is a practice we really don't have a choice in as far as the guidelines that we're following. Any sort of variance that we would want to have to this, I'm assuming would have to be stricter versus less strict and may perhaps fall within our city ordinances if we wanted to add something there, but we couldn't do anything with this document. Teresa Burgess: We cannot change this document. It is adopted by the Department of Transportation. I can certainly make it available to the council. I don't really want to make photocopies because like I said, it is about that thick, but if you'd like to have a chance to review it, I can certainly get that to you and you can take, each take a turn reviewing it before we formally adopt it. Councilman Peterson: I think a work session for a few minutes might be appropriate on this Steve. Councilman Labatt: Sure. Councilman Boyle: I agree. Councilman Ayotte: In addition to the work session discussion we're going to have after this meeting, which is going to be about public safety, it even begs further to the question of seeing whether or not the discussion regarding public safety would have an impact when we talk about this particular... Teresa Burgess: No. This is a signage issue and how we install signs and where. It's not related to enforcement. Mayor Jansen: Yeah, so ifI could have a motion to table that, I believe is what we are going to need to do at this point for a separate discussion. Councilman Boyle: So moved. Councilman Peterson: Second. Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to table adoption of the 2001 Minnesota Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: So the motion carries 5-0 to table l(b). So we will then move l(e) and (h) to the end of the agenda, which (e) is the approval of resolution to update Surface Water Management Water Control and Water Quantity Connection Charges. And (h) is the property maintenance and rental licensing so those have now moved to the end of the agenda. So moving on. Actually within our consent agenda I did just want to mention two significant projects that we just approved. There's been a lot of interest in the community around the Presbyterian Homes senior project over in Villages on the Ponds, and one of the projects that we just approved as part of our consent agenda was the final plat approval and the approval of construction plans and specifications and development contract for that project. It's a 90 independent living, 71 assisted living units, all apartments. And a 9,000 square foot of commercial space that's going into City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Villages on the Ponds, so we're real excited about that project. And we also approved as part of this a location for 8,300 square feet of restaurant space on 79th Street, which is the city parcel that's right next to the Applebee's on 79th Street, and that will have two restaurants in it. I think I can say these publicly. It will be the Chipotle and Buffalo Wild Wings and our residents have certainly been looking for more restaurants so we're pleased to see those two come in and be approved. With that I'll move on then to visitor presentations. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: PRESENTATION OF CRIMNET, SHERIFF BUD OLSON. Mayor Jansen: We have a scheduled presentation on our agenda. The presentation on CrimNet from our Sheriff Bud Olson. If you could go ahead and approach the podium please. Thanks for joining us this evening. Bud Olson: Well Mayor and Council, thank you very much. I think the frog took my voice so I'm not going to have too loud of a voice here tonight. What I wanted to do is introduce Gary Rotari. He's from the Minnesota CrimNet Office in St. Paul and with him and I we're just going to present just real quickly tonight what the Carver County Sheriff's Office and what the courts and what court administration, Carver County is doing and why it's important for the City of Chan. Why it's important for our public safety and why it's important for all of Carver County. Back several years ago we had a very disturbing case in Minnesota. It was the Katie Poirer case and the offender was Donald Blom. I hope you all remember this case that came to our attention through the news media and through all the activity that was going on. What we learned through that case and through several other cases in Minnesota is that a lot of offender information is not getting into our criminal justice system in Minnesota. We have many areas where our criminal justice system does not talk to each other, and the Katie Poirer case kind of brought it to a head and with her help and the family of the Wetterling family and the Swanson family, they went to the State legislature and said come on you guys. Criminal justice system has been asking for 20 years for an information system that will talk to each other. You would probably be astounded to know that in the sheriff's office here there's data, there's information that we don't share across our different disciplines. Court, an offender goes into court and gets convicted on a crime. That crime sometimes gets posted on their criminal history. Many times, and Gary will speak to this, that information isn't even getting into our criminal justice, criminal history information systems, and so a lot of people think that as law enforcement does their job day in and day out and the squad cars being moved around, that we know everything that we should know about when we do our job, and the fact of the matter is we don't. So through the efforts of these families and through some great senators and reps, we went to the legislature and started a program called CrimNet, and it's being partially funded now and the exciting part for Carver County is that we've been chosen, because of our great collaboration in the court system, and the court services systems, and the law enforcement, Chaska and Carver County, to be the first pilot project in the State of Minnesota to work on integrating our information systems so that, where the deputy on the street can get access to a lot of good information and that our courts and our court services can get great information. So I think we supplied you with a packet that kind of just discussed this and has many articles that review this. You'll hear more and more as we move forward but what I'd like to do is just introduce Gary Rotari to help complete our presentation. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Gary Rotari: Thank you Sheriff Olson. Mayor, Council. I am Gary Rotari. I am the Technology Director for the Project called CrimNet. It is a state collaborative process involving the City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Departments of Public Safety, Administration, Finance, and Corrections as well as the Minnesota Supreme Court and the ten Judicial Districts in the State of Minnesota. The court services now, through the Supreme Court, are working on a project or collaborative project replacing an outdated, 25 year or so proprietary information system called TCIS. Total Court Information System. And they're moving toward a new system that will have enhanced capabilities and allow for some sharing of disposition, warrant orders for protection and some other court processes that had to have special file transfers that sometimes left them as much as a week very often the most, the closest to real time that Sheriff Olson's deputies could get to would be 24 hours. The court disposition would be 24 hours old before they received notification. In that process is that, through the efforts of the legislature and the public support, and law enforcement, corrections and courts, we have been able to bring forth the technology not unlike what you've seen in the internet through services like Ebay or marketing services. Very akin to that, except that we do not run it on the internet. We run it in a state's proprietary network. The state's intranet if you will. Again we run it with the appropriate security precaution, but we do attach to information systems, and what Sheriff Olson spoke about is that Carver County has been selected first of all because of the unique collaborative environment that exists between all of the public services and the courts here, and it allows for us very quickly to come to the forefront. What would be available to the police officer or sheriff deputy industry is that they would have access to a wide variety of information that currently you don't have access to today. They would have corrections information, detention information, but they'd also know the conditions and terms as they're related to probation. They would also have records as to what public events, or public contacts, law enforcement and corrections it had with any individual they might come in contact with. That information is not widely available to them today. It has only been coming forward in any sort of a context within the last couple of years. In this process is, and it's funded by the last legislature referred to as the Katie Poirer Bill, and was funded to the amount of 27 million dollars. 15 million went to the court system, and the rest was distributed with 4 million going actually to the CrimNet backbone itself and that's what we're in the process of building. We just recently demonstrated that functionality in a small lab environment, and we're looking to move forward with Carver County and making the connections to the MCIS' project. It's called the Court Information System. That project will be coming forth in February, and so we're looking to make those connections now. It's really exciting for me. I've been 30 some years in public service. 27 as a law enforcement officer of the state. 19 years of those on the street. The rest the time I've been involved in information system building and the like. To come to Carver County, because it does create a unique opportunity and we'll be able to demonstrate by the end of this fiscal year, June 30th, 2003, that sort of functionality and we'll be able to talk about and you'll be the first county to be able to demonstrate that. I would be happy to take any questions and I don't want to take up a lot of your time. The information by the way is available on our web site at CrimNet, Crimnet.state.mn.us. Any questions, I'd be happy to field from you. Mayor Jansen: Well it sounds like a very exciting project and we're certainly pleased to see Carver County be your pilot program. That's very complimentary of the county that they've managed to rise to the forefront for an innovative system like this that is so advanced, so very exciting. Do keep us in the loop. Council, any questions? Councilman Ayotte: I'll probably e-mail this to you, if you don't have the information at the ready but, take a situation where there is a change in law. Where we may start tracking people who are not U.S. citizens. Does the system have the ability to quickly assimilate that kind of information for tracking purposes? Gary Rotari: Mayor, Councilmember. Absolutely. What we're looking to do now, INS we're looking to make connections not only with the Homeland Security as part of our effort. We've City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 also chosen a technology referred to as Extensible Markup Language, or XML that will allow us to exchange technologically information with any variety of information repositories, like the INS, FBI, ATF and others. We're expecting that. One of the most common requests we get now are from the Secretary of State. They're looking for, in a straight forward almost a non-criminal way, they want to know if in fact voters for voter registration is in fact the person alive who's voting. They're looking for death records. They're looking for felony records to see whether or not the person still maintains the right to vote, or they're looking for are you resident of this country, or are you an alien status. So I think in answer, if that's an answer. Councilman Ayotte: That answers, yes. Yeah, great. Thank you. Councilman Boyle: How long will it be before it's fully operational? Gary Rotari: Fully operational, I'm anticipating that it will be 2 years before we connect up the 87 counties. There are some 1,100 information repositories. 400 plus systems that we've identified, and making those connections we anticipate to take a full 2 years to be able to do that. There are some business process changes. Today the court requires a paper notary seal and a signature and so the court now is really looking at efforts to automate with digital signatures and other ways of authenticating a document. Those could be lengthy in their process. Councilman Boyle: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Okay, any other questions council? Councilman Labatt: No. Mayor Jansen: Well thank you for coming this evening and presenting this to us. We sure appreciate it and we'll look forward to the updates as you're getting this online, thank you very much. Gary Rotari: Thank you Mayor and thanks for the opportunity. Councilman Ayotte: Thanks a lot. Mayor Jansen: Moving on, still under visitor presentations. If there is anyone in the audience with an issue of city business that you'd like to bring to the council's attention, we allow for that at this time. You just need to approach the podium and state your name and address for the record and we just ask that you keep your comments to 5 minutes or less please. Go ahead and approach the podium Mr. Smith. Don Smith: I'm Don Smith with Chanhassen Estates. I'm here on this housing rental fee projection. And I'd like to bring again my objection to this because I don't think it's going to work and it's above and beyond very aggressive program. To begin with, I see where they're going to charge one family dwellings 50 bucks. There's no fee for two families. Each condo would be charged 50 units, yet 3 or 4 family dwellings like a big apartment, there's only one $50 fee. Mayor Jansen: It's $50 per unit sir. Don Smith: It doesn't say that. City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Yes, I believe it does. Kate Aanenson: He's got an earlier draft. Mayor Jansen: Oh, you've got an earlier draft. Don Smith: Oh! Well I picked this up this morning. Mayor Jansen: Okay. It is per unit. Don Smith: Well moving right along with my 5 minutes. We get into the property maintenance and I see where this, a lot of it is already in the works between public health, building codes and law enforcement. And in the section 1, on b it says, there's something about if anything is proved unconstitutional. I'd like to bring up the point, I hope legally this has been checked out because there's a lot of things in there that should have been checked out and probably 89 percent of this could be eliminated. And moving right along, back to the last, next to the last page, I might add that all of this is in the form of existing building code. We're covered by the law, and health department. And lastly, but not least, the point of this is, you are only responsible, the landlord for the conduct and nuisance of his renters. And I don't see how anybody can do that when it's already covered. And again I will repeat my objections to the fact that as a landlord I have no authority to do anything and a good example is if there's a public disturbance, a domestic affair, do you think I'm going to go in there and say be quiet? I'm going to call the police. And then to add insult to injury, if I report it myself and I get number 3 violations, you're going to shut me down for 60, 190 days and revoke my license. A license that I don't want to pay for in the first place. I don't have to pay for. And two, I feel that if you're this set on controlling everything, why don't you have a little booth out somewhere where anybody that wants to rent in the great city of Chanhassen, they fill out your form. You approve it and then they can give me it to me as a renter, and I'll take it from there. Okay? So I'm going to close with between the police, the health and the building codes that are already in existence, you don't need this. Whatever you've got on the books, polish them up and get on with it but this is ridiculous. Enough said. Any questions? Mayor Jansen: No, thank you. Don Smith: Thank you. Steve Liefschultz: My name is Steve Liefschultz. I'm here on the same issue. I find myself in the unusual position of actually having to defend the council here in that I'm sort of the spokesperson for the owners that were involved in the licensing situation and quite frankly we feel the licensing ordinance is fair and if it isn't the landlords who are going to be able to control the tenants, we're not sure who else it can be and we feel it gives adequate leeway for the landlords to take care of it. I have just two issues. One my colleagues asked me to bring up. The $50 per unit and $50 per building. For most multi-family structures in Chanhassen, that comes to somewhere around between 7 and 9/10 of 1 percent of their annual revenue. I've only checked with three complexes and that's about what it is. Somewhere between 7/10 of a percent and 9/10 of a percent so just under 1 percent of their annual revenue. At Lakeview Hills it will be just under $9,000. If we collected all our money every month and it was always full, we would have just under a $1,200,000 of scheduled revenue. And I checked with the gentleman who called me and asked me to make this speech who has 24 units and his comes out to be about .75, so just under 1 percent. We just want to make sure that council's aware of that. I asked Mr. Knutson earlier, I know that in Rochester, to be quite candid, we do get charged $50 per unit. For that we City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 get a team that comes out once a year. Looks in every unit. Let's you fix what's wrong and gives you sort of your free type thing every other year. In no other city I'm in do we have that kind of fee. In Burnsville we have no fee. In Eagan we have no fee. In Woodbury, because we're part of a star program, we have next to no fee. There may be some other cities that charge it, but I'm just not aware of it other than Rochester. But the most important concern that I have is on the maintenance ordinance, which essentially indicates that when this ordinance is passed, any structure, whether it's residential, commercial, retail that is not in conformance, is therefore in violation of the ordinance and subject to getting a modification from a building official is going to be in violation. Now if they're not a rental unit, it may be years til they ever find out they're in violation because there may not be any reason for them to be found out. My concern is that the ordinance itself just is going to lead to problems that people could have the chance to avoid. What I've suggested a couple of different times, and I don't have the answer but a suggestion is, give everybody 6 months, 10 months, 5 months to have the official come out and find out whether they are going to be in violation on the date the ordinance becomes final or not. Ask for a modification. Be told yes or no, and then have them decide what they're going to do rather than have it be passed and have people in violation of just about every mortgage that I have seen. I know it's every one I've signed and every one at the bank I own where we give mortgages, they would be in violation. I've taken the opportunity to have the building department come out and tell me what's yes and what's no on mine and I'm going about trying to take care of it but I have serious concern about the viability of the ordinance itself if people are not given a chance to find out where they're going to sit when this thing becomes effective. And that's my biggest concern is on the maintenance side. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Todd or Kate, can you speak to that a little bit as to the period of time to come up to compliance once the ordinance is in place. I'm assuming we've anticipated some of that. Kate Aanenson: Correct. I'll let Roger speak to this a little bit more but in reviewing what Mr. Liefschultz is talking about, Section 754. Modifications. We understand where some of the older apartments may not meet some of the current code so the intent there is where there's practical difficulties, that there's something put in the file explaining the situation. Again as Mr. Liefschultz indicated, the building department has been out there to find out and what would need to be corrected so it's not so onerous. Again the intent is to put someone on notice, a timeframe to get those corrections made and that they're doing due diligence to make those modifications. So I don't know if Roger wanted to add something to that. Roger Knutson: The purpose of the ordinance is to gain compliance, not to punish or prosecute anyone, and that's reflected in the content of this ordinance which is quite different than others. This provides in 7-56 that before we prosecute anyone, we have to give them a notice that we believe they're in violation and I have to specify certain things which we say here, and it gives them a chance to fix it up. And it's only if they fail to fix it up that we would consider prosecution. So they'll have ample opportunity and we don't say how long we're giving someone to fix it up in here because some things take a little bit of time to fix up, and sometimes it could take quite a length of time to fix something up and you'll have to work with people, depending on the type of issues we're dealing with. So that's what the goal is. Not to, to bring, make sure we have a quality housing stock in the community that's well maintained. Not to punish. Mayor Jansen: And so in the meantime, as the ordinance is implemented, are we causing properties then to be out of compliance as Mr. Liefschultz is suggesting and making the financing on those properties then precarious? City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Roger Knutson: It seems to me the way, the way I would read this, I do read this, is that until we tell you to fix it up and you fail to do it, you're not in non-compliance. You're in technical non- compliance with the, potentially with the various standards in here, yes. But until you fail to comply with the ordinance, the notice to repair that we've given you, there's no crime. There's no misdemeanor. There's nothing. Steve Liefschultz: I agree that there is no crime. My concern, and I'm going to leave here, is every mortgage that I know of has a provision that you will not be in violation of any ordinance. There are, I'm not just talking about apartments. There are apartments, retail centers, anything built 20-30 years ago could be 3 million dollars in violation of something that may in fact need to be fixed. May not need to be fixed. I'm not talking about any criminal situation. Every mortgage you sign says that at all times you will not be in violation of any ordinance. If they came to my building and said 20 years ago this was okay. It's going to be 3 million dollars to fix it, the day this thing passes, I'm in violation. Now, I may get a chance ahead of time. If you came and let me know before the ordinance got passed, I could challenge the official. I could challenge the ordinance. I could do something. But on the day that this passes I'm in violation of an ordinance, it doesn't, I don't have it agreed that I won't be criminally prosecuted. The mortgage says you will not be in violation of any ordinances. And orders and anything of the like, and that's my concern. I have no doubt that everybody's going to be reasonable in letting something, I don't know how reasonable you can be if it's a 4 million dollar fix, you know but I'm sure everybody's going to be reasonable. The problem I have in the mortgages I've seen and give is, you're still going to be... everything else will stay the same. Kate Aanenson: ... question too, because we get these every day. These letters and to the best of my ability, the building official gets them. We don't make inspections. My understanding is that we say to the best of our ability because they're not inspected. Is that true... Steve Liefschultz: We don't know? Kate Aanenson: We don't know, right because we get those every day. We don't know, so right now if we get those letters we say we don't know because we don't inspect every building. This would only come up on those ones that we have inspections or something in the file. And again the goal is to get compliance to work towards that, and that's why I was reading that modification and we put something in there that we're working, most buildings we don't do inspections on when we get those letters. We say we don't know. Roger Knutson: And to the best of my knowledge, I think most larger communities, not most smaller ones, but most larger communities do have similar codes. Maintenance codes, and at least as has been reported back to me, I've never heard anyone report to me that they had a problem with their mortgage because of our maintenance codes. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Alright. And then to the point of the buildings actually being looked at and reviewed, that will be the position that we're talking about as far as having someone going in and doing those code inspections and working with the landlords to get those upgrades. Okay. Alright. Moving on with visitor presentations. We have one more person? Janet Paulsen: My name is Janet Paulsen. I live at 7305 Laredo Drive. I want to speak to this landlord law. I think it's a hardship for landlords. Who wants to be a landlord in Chanhassen and build apartments? Build duplexes. We'll have a hard time finding them because it's punishable. It's just too punishing for them. Don't we want diversity in housing? As Don Smith said, we've already had codes which govern rental housing, upkeep and standards. Well let's enforce them. City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 As I recall from 2 years of council watching, and it's been a real education, this law on landlords was initiated to deal with Lakeview Apartments on Lake Riley. The neighbors were upset with behavior of some of the Mexican renters and they demanded action. Let's just enforce our current laws. Let's use the police for dangerous situations, and why don't you as a council work with these people and coordinate volunteers in the community to help our Mexican works. Our guest workers seem to be needed in Chanhassen. They're working in the fast food places. They're cooking in the restaurants. They're roofing our homes. They're painting. They work hard. Let's help them out, not put their landlord out of business, and put them out of housing. Where else can they afford to live in Chanhassen? So take the high road, not the low road. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Okay, I am going to address several of those statements because in fact we pulled together a task force, as Mr. Liefschultz spoke to with 6 landlords that served along with one of our senior commissioners and two residents. And this was a group effort and the reason that the landlords were there, were to make sure that this was the type of a program that we were putting together that was also helpful to the landlords. I mean it is helping with the enforcement. It is also helping the tenants. We had tenants that were looking for these types of controls on our parks, so we're not persecuting a single complex. We are not persecuting individuals. We are looking at Chanhassen and wanting to make sure that we have standards in place where we can help maintain the quality of the housing in the community. We are not pricing it out of the marketplace, and there are numerous occasion where we end up with issues coming before us on some of the maintenance of some of our older homes so this is not meant to persecute. It's been a very long and open process with our landlords trying to work out the language and we certainly are also looking at working with all of our businesses in town as this program is put into place. Again it's not being put into place to punish. With that, I do want to, I want to mention the people who served on this advisory committee because they did put in quite a bit of time and now we've moved this to the end of our agenda. I just want to recognize them. The 9 people who served for us. Jeff Copeland as a Chanhassen resident, Tom Faust as our Senior Commissioner, Lisa Lane of the Carver County HRA, Mike and forgive me if I don't pronounce his name right. Mike Stoebe, INH Property Management Inc. James Martin of the Carver County Apartments. Lynette Schmitz, Marthin Management. Rob Vaules, Chanhassen resident. Joe Videlz, Stuart Management, and Mr. Steve Liefschultz, Ramada Company. So our 9 people who did put the time in on this project, we certainly appreciate it. Is there anyone else with comments under visitor presentations? Otherwise I will close visitor presentations and move on under public hearings. PUBLIC HEARING: VACATION OF UTILITY AND DRAINAGE EASEMENTS FOR OUTLOT F, VILLAGES ON THE PONDS, VOPI, LLC. Teresa Burgess: Thank you Madam Mayor. Madam Mayor and Council. This evening we are reviewing a easement vacation. This is a picture of the existing easement. This easement was platted at the time that Villages on the Ponds was originally developed, and the property owners have requested that we vacate this easement and they have already submitted the revised plat. They will be removing the two ponds that are shown and will be dedicating the area that is shown in pink as drainage and utility easements in place of the easements that were originally dedicated. With that I'll answer any questions. Tonight is a public hearing. Kate Aanenson: There was a stormwater pond right in the middle of this building.., we just moved that pond... At the time it was put in place, the building shape has changed. 10 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay. The question that I had posed to staff was that the Planning Commission had taken some pains to make sure that that wetland was a focus piece for the building so I was just clarifying it was the ponds that we're leaving and not the wetland. Okay. Any other questions for staff before I open this up for the public hearing? Okay. This is a public hearing. If there is anyone who would like to comment on the agenda item, certainly step forward to the podium at this time and state your name and address. Seeing no one, I will close the public hearing and bring this back to council. Council comments or I'll call for a motion. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Ayotte: Second. Resolution #2002-89: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council approves a resolution vacating the existing drainage and utility easement within Outlot F of Villages on the Ponds as defined in the attached vacation description, subject to the following condition: The easement vacation will not be recorded until the Villages on the Ponds 7th Addition final plat is filed with Carver County. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. PUBLIC HEARING: CONSIDER A REQUEST FOR TEMPORARY LIFTING OF NO PARKING RESTRICTIONS ON LAKE LUCY ROAD FOR A CHRISTMAS DISPLAY. Public Present: Name Address Phil Thiesse Tim Lindquist Robert Kendall Uli Sacchet 1675 Steller Court 1650 Lake Lucy Road 1645 Lake Lucy Road 7053 Highover Court South Teresa Burgess: Thank you Madam Mayor. This evening we are looking at a petition from the property owner at 1645 Lake Lucy Road to have a temporary lifting of no parking on Lake Lucy Road. We do that typically on a 1 to 2 day basis, up to a 1 week at an administrative level. This road, they are requesting for the period of November 27th through January 12th. Given the time period staff has brought it to council for approval. We feel that's beyond the administrative authority and with that we have put a number of conditions on this. We have sent a copy of this to the property owner. They do have some disagreement with some of our conditions but we felt that they were reasonable and as we had put them forward, they did match with what Carver County felt also. I did speak with the Carver County Sheriff Deputy's Office this afternoon and they concurred that they can work with these conditions and would be happy to work with the Kendall's, as well as with the city to coordinate anything that needs to be done out there. We have left also the possibility that the Kendall's would be able to provide their own, using their volunteers or paid staff, that being up to them, flaggers to also ease the problems that we've had out there with traffic control issues, rather than having paid deputies on site. In the past we have used the city deputies, the deputies that the city is paying for to be on staff here in the city, as well 11 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 as our CSO, which does take away from our coverage in the rest of the city. I asked the deputies for a rough estimate of the time they spend there. They felt that they were there most of the evening on Friday and Saturday but didn't really have to be there during the rest of the week. Jeff, our CSO estimated he worked between 10 and 20 hours per week on the site, mainly documenting what was going on and verifying that there were not problems so that he could call it into the sheriff's deputies. So far we have not had an accident in the area and it is a large display. I know a lot of people get excited about it. We do receive calls every year asking when and where it will be. We have recommended that instead of allowing all of the parking on Lake Lucy Road. Lake Lucy Lane does not have homes adjacent to it. We do have a couple of homes that are to the south that access off Lake Lucy Lane, however they are set back quite a ways and therefore instead of recommending all of the parking be on Lake Lucy Road, we are recommending a large amount of it be directed off to Lake Lucy Lane. That will require people to walk a little bit further, but it keeps them off of Lake Lucy Road. Looking at the distances they would have to walk, they would probably be walking just as far. It's a less busy road. They will have to cross the road and that is why we're putting forward that we believe there would need to be flaggers to allow for those people to cross safely. So if there's any questions I'd be happy to answer them. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any questions for staff at this time? Councilman Ayotte: Yeah I have one for Roger. If we have a volunteer who's providing traffic control instead of a deputy, and we pass this and there's an accident, who holds the liability? Roger Knutson: Council members, those questions are difficult to answer in the abstract because it depends on who's negligent. What caused the accident. Was someone driving too fast? Was someone drunk? I mean what caused the accident? Councilman Ayotte: Well let's take a case where someone is drunk and let's take a case where someone is not drunk. Give me both scenarios. Roger Knutson: The city should not have any liability. Now if you put someone out there. Ifa homeowner, and I don't know what this entails. I assume they're not going to be stopping traffic in the street. I assume they're not doing that. Teresa Burgess: Well traffic stops in the street now. The condition that's in there specifically states that all flagging will follow the Minnesota Manual of Flagging, which is what is used for all of our construction site flagging. It is used on several projects per year, and if they are following those guidelines, they will have the proper signage, vests, flags. Roger Knutson: Then it should be okay if they do it appropriately. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. Do we have an obligation to ensure that, a trade off, anything along that line. Do we have any responsibility with respect to his employing traffic control? Roger Knutson: I think it would be prudent to ask about whoever's going to do it, what their experience is and are they familiar with the requirements for doing it appropriately, yes. I think it'd be appropriate to make those inquiries. Councilman Boyle: Roger, let's take it just a little step further. Nobody's drinking. Everybody's driving below the speed limit. The city takes the no parking sign restrictions away. The city does 12 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 this. A little boy runs out behind a parked car and gets hit. Everybody's, there's no negligence. Is the city liable then? Roger Knutson: It's a terrible tragedy. No. Councilman Boyle: But the city is not liable? Even though we're responsible for taking the no parking signs away. Roger Knutson: It's your policy decision that you should not have a, no liability should be attached to that. Councilman Boyle: Okay. Roger Knutson: But again, that does not, would not diminish the tragedy obviously. Councilman Boyle: Understand. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other questions? Councilman Peterson: The only questions I had was on one of the conditions, you've got down that on the 27th of November and 24th of December, 25th, etc, etc, that the operation goes til 1:00 a.m. I was a little surprised at that. If I was their direct neighbor I would be somewhat concerned at that one. Teresa Burgess: Those are the evenings that they have traditionally stayed open late. They are Thanksgiving evening, Christmas Eve, Christmas night. New Year's Eve. Councilman Peterson: I'm familiar with the dates but. Teresa Burgess: You know, some of them move around. They were the dates that they traditionally stay open late, and that people traditionally come even if they shut down the lights and people have knocked on their door and asked them to open up again and so it was felt that we should offer. Councilman Ayotte: They come up and knock on your door? Councilman Labatt: Do you mm them back on quick? Teresa Burgess: Those conditions are all open to discussion by the council and the final decision is your's. If you don't feel those are appropriate, that's your decision. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Labatt, did you have a question? Councilman Labatt: Teresa, number 6 also as far as just on the other days of the week where you say 10:00 p.m. Is that consistent with our ordinance? Teresa Burgess: That is consistent with the ordinance. The ordinance allows til 11:00 p.m.. The reason going with 10:00 p.m. is that by issuing the parking permit we do have the ability to add some conditions by issuing the temporary lifting. We can request something in return. If we choose not to issue that parking permit, they can stay until 11:00 p.m. every evening as per the existing ordinance. 13 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Councilman Labatt: So we're taking away an hour on approximately 28 days, and giving them an extra hour or 2 on 4 days. Teresa Burgess: Correct. Councilman Labatt: Right. Councilman Ayotte: I was somewhat surprised that. Mayor Jansen: Is this still within questions? Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, I want to know why we, I'm surprised we only have one response. Could you talk towards the announcement to the neighboring community and. Teresa Burgess: We only received two written responses from people that could not be here this evening. I know that one other individual had told me they were going to write. I did not receive it. We have received a significant number of phone calls with people that said they would be here this evening. It doesn't look like that many people for the calls we got, but we did mail as a standard practice, we mailed a 500 feet from the property. In this case we used that same process that we use for the planning department for any of those developments that go out and we mail for a 500 foot radius from the property. Councilman Ayotte: Were the responses from the phone calls negative or positive towards the? Teresa Burgess: Our statement to people on the phone is we will listen to you but we cannot convey that as easily as you can yourself. We prefer them in writing or that they come to the public hearing because I don't feel comfortable coming and telling you I had 6 calls for and 3 calls against. What if I miscounted or... Councilman Ayotte: Generally speaking though were they negative or positive comments? Teresa Burgess: Most of them were taken by the secretary and she did not tally. Mayor Jansen: I doubt that it's much different than we've received on the other occasions when we've reviewed this issue. Okay. With that, why don't I, I know the applicant is here this evening. If you'd like to speak before the public hearing, you're certainly welcome to. Otherwise I will open this for the public hearing. Good evening. Bob Kendall: Good evening Madam Mayor. Gentlemen of the council and the city. I just want to say, Bob Kendall at 1645 Lake Lucy Road. I just want to thank the city for the years that we have put this up, it's been an enormous delight. I don't know how many council members or mayor have actually been there during the full activity of the display when it's actually most the time when it does get extremely busy is close to Christmas. Thanksgiving is kind of an opening to the holidays. We get, those nights get a little bit busy, but what I say traffic's going to be parking enormously, from my experience, and I've done this for 15 years. This display orientation type Christmas display. Usually it's up the block, maybe you know up towards the top of the hill on there, and some of Yosemite gets full. I do walk the streets. I do have a Blazer. I've taken myself out of the Santa sleigh to try to start the, coordinate the traffic. Keep it moving. Mayor Jansen: I'm trying to picture Santa out in the middle of the street waving the traffic flag. 14 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Bob Kendall: Well I'm not in the Santa. I actually have another person in the Santa chair just to try to control the environment. We've moved, the sleigh never used to be in the driveway. It used to be up on top of the hill so we've moved that chair. That chair's still there and people can still come there and sit and then take photos with the families and so on. It's a little bit less tensioned area for the children if they don't really get along with the big...the elf guy but. And then also for barricading, we barricade that whole front. My lot, all around this comer here. We usually barricade it quite.., so there's no parking across that entire front into the William's lot. All the way through my lot, and then up to the Weingart's driveway, just past that so we keep that cleared open. I've talked to them in the previous past and they like to, they did respond with a letter. They do live on Steller Court. It might be an inconvenience for them if they're passing from the east going west. I'm hoping that they can oversee that and take a diverted routes which is the new frontage road up Galpin and back towards the east. Some situations, which a lot of the neighbors, and I do try to respond to all the neighbors as much as I can. We've tried to lower the hours. 1:00 could be open for discussion. And comments on having the lights off. I did try to mm the lights off early one year at 10:00 and unfortunately they have these little memos and we had it to 11:00 and I do have people that travel distance from all over the United States. I had a 10 year old that came. He had saved his pennies and wanted to donate $9 in coins to the donation box and it was 10:10 and I turned the lights off so I re-turned them on for some time and then I turned them off again. The music, I don't want to keep the music on til 1:00 at night. Usually after the news that gets all toned down and it's not verbally heard across the street. That's probably another issue that's on hand. But I do try to, and with barricades, I mean we pretty much slow the traffic down entirely on the road, but on that event it actually enhances the safety on the road and when you take the parking on both sides, referring to one neighbor, Deanna across the street. Her whole lot is barricaded and so is the fire hydrant is barricaded. I try to run a high safety, healthy environment. No drinking. If I see someone drinking, they're gone. Of course ifI see them there too much drinking. We don't generally get a lot of those on the lot. Most the time when we mm the lights on, 4:30 to 6:00, it's pretty quiet. Right after dinner it gets a little bit busier. Then we see a lot of the toddlers from then, in that point but around 9:30-10:00, it's more the traffic level drops extremely. Except for Christmas Eve, Christmas Day. Those times. They get to be, it can be a little bit bumper to bumper. I look at it and it is over amazing but the traffic does keep moving and I try to keep the buses, I don't let them pull up. And I do want to restrict hours now for the buses. One is the lights are off, they're not going to be just loading. Most of them, over 2 years ago I talked to, you know you can't take your limos and you can't pull up like you're special people to the display and park and unload. I said you shut down traffic. I said you're going to have to get your people somewhat weather booted or something to take a little bit of hike if they're going to go up and through the yard so. Mayor Jansen: Can I maybe have you address a couple of the conditions. Maybe specifically so we know where you stand on some of these things. Maybe as a for instance number 5 where it's talking about having you work with the Carver County Sheriff's Department to obtain any additional help that you might need out there. Are you open to doing that and having someone available to work the flag system on your busier nights? Bob Kendall: I don't have any problems with that. Is that something that you're going to have funded or is that something that would be funded? Teresa Burgess: The condition is that it would be at no cost to the city of Chanhassen. That is up to the council if they want to subsidize that, and Roger, where does that come on that separation of church and state because we ran into that with the right-of-way issue where we couldn't allow 15 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 it in the right-of-way because of the separation of church and state. Can we subsidize the deputies? Roger Knutson: I don't see the church and state issue. This is a public safety, directing traffic and the right-of-way issue. Teresa Burgess: Then it's up to the council if you want to supply the additional force for it and finance it. We do not have it in the budget currently. Councilman Ayotte: What are we talking about? Are we talking $10 or $10,0007 What would be the cost of having someone? Mayor Jansen: Friday and Saturday nights. Teresa Burgess: $50 an hour for a deputy. If you want to have a deputy on site Friday and Saturday nights, which is what the deputies have recommended. I felt that when I talked to the deputies that experienced flaggers could certainly offset that and reduce the necessary time. Councilman Ayotte: But a uniformed deputy. Teresa Burgess: To have a uniformed on duty deputy would be $50 an hour, unless you want to choose to shift some of our enforcement that we have on duty during those time periods over to this display, and except that we will not have as much coverage in the rest of the city. In which case it would be built into our existing. Councilman Ayotte: Well they're all going to be over there anyways. I mean you know. Teresa Burgess: If you don't do this, they will be. Todd Gerhardt: No, I mean they may have to leave the scene and won't be able to do traffic control if there's an accident someplace else or any other issues so I can't see how we could provide traffic control under our contract system. A dependable one. Mayor Jansen: An experienced flagger, and you're talking about them needing to be trained under the regulations that you've accorded here. Teresa Burgess: If they're an experienced flagger, whether they've received training or not, if they've been used on a construction site or have worked in that area, they've received some form of training, whether that's formalized. The State of Minnesota does not provide training. Neither do any of the cities or counties that I'm aware of, but a number of companies do provide training to either their employees, warning lights, which I know Bob has used in the past, provides training as a courtesy to people that buy signs from them. That's where our people go for training. If we could go back to deputies real quick. I did talk with the Carver County Sheriffs. If you hire a deputy under that $50 an hour, he is dedicated to your site. He will not be pulled off short of a major catastrophe. That he would have been pulled off from non-duty. They bring in an officer on overtime or they dedicate an officer that is not otherwise assigned so that is different from our contract. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Right now the staff recommendation is that it be paid for by the property owner and not by the city so we'll bring that back for council discussion when we get to council discussion. I was just checking with Mr. Kendall to see if he had considered that condition. 16 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Bob Kendall: I haven't seen officers. Keith Walgrave's actually been on the site and spent some time when he's off call working in Chanhassen. He hasn't, I don't know if Teresa's talked to him, that was the one. And I have, the CSO I haven't seen at all. I don't know where he is during the display. Instead of working and taking notes and controlling it, I'd rather see if you're going to spend that time to try to use it at a better pace on the street showing uniform... Mayor Jansen: Well he wasn't actually assigned there to be working the scene. He was monitoring what was going on so that's, he's not a consideration as far as being able to staff. What this is stating is that you would be responsible for making sure that you do have somebody on the site, either able to flag or serve in the traffic control. Bob Kendall: I feel comfortable that I could get volunteers to do that too, because I can get the... Blazers and the flags. I've also worked about 20 years construction with road and highway and different issues with county roads, state roads, city roads. I haven't been out really on interstate work but. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So it sounds like you're familiar with what staff is requesting. Teresa Burgess: And Bob does have a copy of the manual. I did supply him a copy of the manual. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Labatt: I hate to lighten this topic here but, when the school can get fifth graders to do the crossing guard flags, I would think Mr. Kendall can get the proper adults to wear the safety vests and put a flag out there and. Fifth graders can be crossing guards. Mayor Jansen: That's what I'm checking with Mr. Kendall for is to make sure that he's comfortable getting people to do that. So on the other conditions, if we could maybe move through the conditions so we can maybe get through this. Are there other conditions Mr. Kendall that you'd like to address with us? Bob Kendall: Yeah. One would be the, and Teresa you might want to just brief me on this. The right-of-way, the mailbox is exempt but most of the structures are back 10 to 15 feet, 2 to 3 car lengths from the curb. Teresa Burgess: If you're 10 to 15 feet back, you're fine. Bob Kendall: Okay. Alright, then. Teresa Burgess: And we're not, just so you understand, we're not coming out there with the tape to check it. We're going to eyeball it and then if something really brings our attention to it, we'll talk about it then. If there's something you're putting in there and you're going I don't know if this is kind of pushing it. Give our office a call. We'll come out and talk to you about it and come out on the site. We'd rather get it taken care of before you get the stakes in the ground. Bob Kendall: Okay. And this would be basically for the utilities, if there was a utility breakage underneath to access it? 17 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Teresa Burgess: That's part of it, but also because the city right-of-way, you can certainly still put some of the things that are non-permanent in the right-of-way. You know the things that hang in the trees, things that are not difficult to relocate. Those can go into the right-of-way. The issue is that we can't allow people to put a Christmas display on public property, and if we allow you to put it on the right-of-way, knowingly put it on the right-of-way. I realize people do it all the time. That would be no different than our allowing you to put the display in Lake Lucy or Lake Ann Park. Bob Kendall: Oh okay. Teresa Burgess: And so we can't allow you go out and do that. Some of that's going to happen. You're going to hang some stuff in the trees that's going to overhang into the right-of-way. I'm not going to come out and get upset about that. It's the permanent structures and the semi- permanent that you're going to put in there that are going to stay til spring when the snow melts that I'm concerned about. Bob Kendall: Oh okay. Well I'll have you check a few buildings. Teresa Burgess: Certainly. I have no problem, either myself or somebody from my office coming out. Bob Kendall: The trash, number 4 has not really been an issue. We went over 5. Teresa Burgess: On number 6, Madam Mayor and Council, if I could just clarify. By putting these hours in, we're not requiring Mr. Kendall to stay open until this late or to run the lights until this late. However, as he mentioned, he does have 15 years experience and so we were allowing, staff's intention was... Bob Kendall: Do you have any more questions? I mean I can stay for more questions... Mayor Jansen: Okay, any other questions for Mr. Kendall. Councilman Peterson: Going back to number 6. If you're not going to do 1:00 a.m., what is reasonable? I mean I'd rather do something reasonable you're going to use. If you're not going to stay open past midnight, then should we put midnight on there? Bob Kendall: Well on those particular dates, 1:00 wouldn't be bad. I mean we get a lot of traffic, families that gather that do come late. Also, I mean that would be the latest. I mean I like to go to bed too so. But those nights are high activity. Some people, I don't like to concentrate it all at one time. IfI can hold that offtil 1:00, 12:30, that would be, it seems late but a lot of displays stay lit all night long during Christmas Eve so. Mayor Jansen: Well and I think we also need to consider what's reasonable for the neighbors too. Those are special evenings for those living around the complex too so, coming up with that reasonable balance as well. I understand what you're saying. Bob Kendall: Yeah, my neighbors across the street are most valuable, and Deanna's, you know I'll try to step up as much as I can but with the barricades across the front there, I hope, usually there, cars are not parking there and if they are, there's just no way. I haven't had, since we did the barricades and the cones, we haven't had really any problems on that parking issue there so. 18 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Alright, well thank you. Appreciate it. I'll open this up for the. Councilman Boyle: I've got one quick question. Councilman Ayotte: On December 3 1st, New Years Eve, have you seen a little bit more rowdiness in your 15 years of experience with this versus on Christmas Eve as an example? New Years Eve and quite possibly more potential for concern than other evenings? Is Bob Kendall: No. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. And down here on the recommendation, the recommended motion it says November 27th through January 12th. Would you have much heartburn if that was shorten up by a week. The January 12th to January 6th as an example. It's still after New Years. Bob Kendall: I like to try to keep it to the second weekend. Councilman Ayotte: Because? Bob Kendall: Well a lot of people from different internationalities here and like to see the display and a lot of people aren't available to get to see it during the regular hours. It also expands the hours so concentration of people. If you cut it back, a lot of people say okay we're, but you know when I say it's open to that second weekend, it gives people more time. Councilman Ayotte: More time so it's less traffic. Bob Kendall: Right, it cuts down. I mean it also cuts down, we could cut the hours down if you'd like that last week. My wife probably wouldn't be too happy with that but I'm more willing to cut it back to 9:00 or 10:00 at night. Councilman Ayotte: If you were to cut hours the last week, what would the hours be cut to? Bob Kendall: 10:00. 9:00, 10:00 on the weekends. There is going to be, the other thing is, once the display is done, I keep a few lights on in the trees just in certain areas and spots to kind of shadow the display so if I do go outside or someone tries, and these areas are pretty much you can't get.., so there's a little bit of security blanket there. Those lights aren't really pouring off to across the street, which is funny if you look at this magnitude of the display, you'd think there'd be a lot of reflection going on but for some reason it gets. It's a very unique, I have a very unique lot and it caters to it remarkably so. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Council, are we ready to move this on? Councilman Boyle: Just one quick question. We jumped around a lot Mr. Kendall. I want to make sure that I understand that you have read the conditions and you have no issues that haven't been brought up tonight. Bob Kendall: Teresa, you got all the red on here. Does that mean that there's going to be no parking on that whole curve right there? Teresa Burgess: No. The red is actually the area we are recommending parking. 19 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Bob Kendall: Oh. I would recommend not to park there. I'd recommend you keep that barricaded. Mayor Jansen: Around the curve. Bob Kendall: Yes. Because on that one curve there, if you want to put the parking, put it on the other side and down, and then up Yosemite people park. And then past the Weingart's driveway. I don't think I, I at least try to get that parking barricaded and signaged on that one side. I don't like to get, that's just, people, I don't know why. The curve is there and I do slow the traffic down but with the barricades, that side, it also gets, that side gets a little bit more wind, snow. The winds coming off the northeast and all that stuff there so. I mean I plow the streets curb to curb during that time so you're not getting the guide, the plow drivers get their roads all cleaned up and they don't have to lean over and all that stuff but. Teresa Burgess: And certainly, if council's okay with it, what we can do is council can approve the concept of parking with staff and Mr. Kendall and Mrs. Kendall going out on site to designate the actual areas to be designated. If council's okay with that. We typically pick those locations administratively. It's just the length of time we're uncomfortable with in this one. So if council's okay with that, we'll do that. Rather than stick ourselves with this one and say no, this is the way it has to be this evening. I do know the Kendall's are anxious to get started with setting up their display, if you haven't already started and would like to have this issue put to rest so they're sure that they're going to get approvals. Bob Kendall: And then also Teresa, right in front of our lot there's, I'm not going to have parking on either side. One's for the protection of the neighbors across the street and their driveways. It is, when you're coming down to the road and it is on a busy, busy night, and they get to their driveway and it's blocked and then you've got bumper to bumper, you know people looking, it can be very frustrating to get in your driveway so that's another reason. Also if I can get this, if we can try to work this so it can be on the agenda every year so I don't have to, it can be just automatically renewed. Is that going to be? Teresa Burgess: What you need to do is just fill out your permit for temporary parking. Lifting of no parking, so that's all you need to do, and the loud speaker permit. We'll want you to fill that out every year, but we can certainly make a note to ourselves on our tickler file to try to remind you. Just for council's information, as a matter of practice our engineering department generally does not allow parking on both sides of the street that is currently signed no parking. When we temporarily lift we only lift it on one side of the street. And we will lift on the side that we would prefer people to walk on, because they won't cross to walk. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Alright, thank you Mr. Kendall. Appreciate your comments. Bob Kendall: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: I'm going to open this up to the public hearing and ask that as you come forward, if you can limit your comments to 5 minutes apiece and if the person ahead of you has said what you wanted to say, consider it said and we can then move this along. So if you'd like to make comments, please approach the podium and state your name and address for the record please. Tim Lindquist: Hi. My name's Tim Lindquist. I'm at 1650 Lake Lucy, which is right here on the comer. I called in and I was going to write a letter but I do feel pretty strongly about this so I thought I'd show. I think I've been there for about every one of Kendall's displays in my 20 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 residence. I do have a 2 year old son and I've got another one on the way so I think I'm looking at the future too. I very much support. You know usually you hear the bad things, and I very much support Bob and Sandy doing what they're doing. During Christmas you know, we spend sometime over at their place walking the display. I've got a lot of family come over and we walk the display. Usually you go over there, I haven't seen anybody rowdy. I haven't seen any problems. I haven't seen anybody yell at anybody else for any track violations or you know, everybody's in a Christmas spirit is what I'd like to say. Our bedrooms, both my son's and my wife and I are on the road side of the house. We don't hear any extra noise. Nothing keeps us up at night. We like to have the windows open, or the blinds open a little bit. We like to see Christmas things. We love it. I like to see it happen. Like I say, I don't think there's any problems. Bob has jumped through a lot of hoops to keep the traffic down. And I also think parking on the side actually does keep the traffic better. I think it slows it down. So I appreciate what they do. Going across the street you see a lot of happy faces, a lot of kids so, thank you. Mayor Jansen: Appreciate your comments. And just so we understand. All we're talking about this evening is the parking. Lifting the no parking along, at least a side of the road. It's not whether the display will actually happen or not. We certainly appreciate it as well. Anyone else who would like to comment on this agenda item. Phil Thiesse: Good evening. I'm Ebenezer Scrooge. I'm Phil Thiesse from 1675 Steller Court. I feel it's kind of un-Christmas like or anti-American to say anything bad about the display. Mayor Jansen: Then stick to the traffic issues. Phil Thiesse: Okay. My concern is that any parking on Lake Lucy Road impedes traffic. The bike lane where, the pedestrian lane where people have to park is about 5 feet wide from my estimation. And you put a car in there, and you have to drive around those parked cars. And if you look at the map, now you're directing people over to, across the street so now they're going to have to cross where 3 different lanes of traffic are, or traffic from 3 different directions are coming. And what concerns me about having flag wavers, like say Randy Moss were to try to get through there, are they in a position to be able to stop traffic? This is a 35 miles an hour road with a pretty sharp curve in it, and it's a very busy road. I admire what, all the work Bob has done and I just think that this is a very dangerous place to have this. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Teresa, any comments on what the flaggers would actually be able to do as far as the traffic? And stopping traffic, or is it more, what is the intent? Teresa Burgess: We would be looking for flaggers to assist people with crossing because we are encouraging people to cross Lake Lucy, so we would be looking for them to act as crossing guards. Also to help people that maybe are going a little too slow, that seem to be just trying to drive by and look. Encouraging them to go to the appropriate places for parking and get out and walk the site instead of driving by it. You'll see people that do. They try to look at it all from the street. We're also encouraging those flaggers to gently remind people that are parking in inappropriate locations, to get back to where they're supposed to be. So if they see somebody trying to pull over and park someplace, they would go over and tell them, I'm sorry. This is not an area you're supposed to park. You need to be in this area and directing them. So we're not asking them to take an enforcement role. They're not authorized to do that but they would, when you put a person out in a flagger setting, they are expected to be able to stop traffic. The flagger's manual provides with what, how that's done and how those people should be attired. What type of equipment they need to be able to do that. And if you've been through a construction site, that's the type of flagging we're looking for, is what you see on a typical construction site and we 21 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 would like to see someone that has done it before. Not somebody that just walks in and goes well geez, what do I have to do? Where's my vest? We're looking for somebody that has tried it and has done it under a situation where they've actually been out in traffic before, because it is a scary situation to be out in traffic. You have cars very close to you. Even at a low speed, they're very close and as that gentleman brought up Randy Moss and his run in with the traffic control agent. She was injured in a very low impact, very low speed impact. It can happen if you're not paying attention so those people need to be experienced enough to know what to expect and how to react to people that may not want to see them out there. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Councilman Ayotte: That's beyond a fifth grader's skill settings at that point. Mayor Jansen: Any other comments? Councilman Labatt: I watch them on Laredo every day. Uli Sacchet: My name is Uli Sacchet. I live at 7053 Highover Court South. I drive through Lake Lucy Road quite a bit and my concern is for safety. It's certainly a great display. There's nothing to be argued about that part. However, safety wise I think it's a real big issue. I think flagging is not enough. If we have a neighborhood party we close offa cul-de-sac and we don't have traffic in and I think for something this magnitude, you know given that a neighborhood party may have a keg of beer, but you'll have mostly a lot of kids and that's the reason why it's part of. I think Lake Lucy Road, that stretch and whatever road there is should be closed for through traffic for the whole period, and then the question is, is that possible for that long? I think there is a mis-match. Something not quite balanced. This was a great location for this display before Lake Lucy was traveled so heavily, but now that it's a major collector, connecting 41 to Powers, and as all these neighborhoods are developing really fast, and hundreds of people or hundreds of families I should say are moving into that area using that as one of the major through roads. I don't think flagging is enough. I think you would have to close it to through traffic in order to do it somewhat justice, and then that raises that question, can you do that for a month or whatever the duration is? I don't think you can. That's my comment, thank you. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Anyone else who would care to comment on this item? Mr. Kendall? Bob Kendall: Can I just have a brief moment here? Mayor Jansen: Brief moment again. Bob Kendall: Just with the parking. When you park on both sides. You still get enough passage for even a one ton truck to get through, or a fire truck. I like actually once it gets into the parking it slows the vehicles down. Hopefully the people that live in the neighboring areas will give me the benefit, and also I could probably maybe illustrate, this display's going to start on December, or Thanksgiving. It's going to end, try to use an alternate route. I mean we've got the Galpin route. We've got 41. I'm not trying to steer you in different directions but maybe ifI can make people aware ahead of time, you know like Highway 7's going to be closed down from date to this date, if you can use an alternate route. A lot of people tell me when, and I do real estate appraising and I get to see a tremendous amount of people and I hear most, I know the ones, I hear all the good things and sometimes these kids just want to drive by just to see the activity or the display. You know the kids aren't going to be good if they can't but, which does pick up 22 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 traffic a little bit but usually that's more or less 4 or 5 people going home but I just wanted to add that little bit to it so, thank you. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Alright, is there anyone else who would care to comment? With that I'm going to close the public hearing and bring this back to council. Council any, I guess we can take this to comments. If anyone has any more questions for staff, that would be the better place to start. Any questions? Councilman Labatt: I've got a couple for staff. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Labatt: Teresa. Since Highway 5 is re-opened up to 4 lanes, West 78th is now open, has a traffic study been done to determine what those new roads have caused for traffic alleviation up on the north end? Teresa Burgess: No. We do not have a functional model for Chanhassen for the entire area. Typically you'll build a model for only the pieces you're looking at, and the Highway 5 model, it was never designed to look at what that does to Lake Lucy when they open up. Lake Lucy is a fundamental part of our transportation system. A lot of those neighborhoods, that is their primary access point so to close it would really be a problem. The other issue that comes up is that that road is funded with state funds. It's what's called a municipal state aid route or an MSAS. And because we receive those funds we cannot really shut people off from that road because the state's going to get a little angry and probably. Teresa Burgess: That's addressing Uli's comment. Councilman Labatt: No. I'm not looking at closing the road. I'm just trying to, my normal route when I come in from where I live, is I take West 78th now instead of Highway 5 or go up to Lake Lucy so I just wonder how many people are taking that same new frontage road. Teresa Burgess: It was anticipated that West 78th would mainly take traffic off of 5. Or traffic that should have been on 5 in the first place. It was not anticipated that they would take large numbers off of roads like Lake Lucy. It may take some, but most of that traffic, if it was going to migrate, would migrate up to 7. Mayor Jansen: I think it's a safe assumption to think that people will be taking alternate routes during the display times. Councilman Labatt: I would encourage them to. Mayor Jansen: Obviously. Councilman Labatt: I know I do. Mayor Jansen: As we're going through this, maybe what expedite it a little bit. All we really have before us is the motion as far as the no parking and the conditions, so if council, we can maybe get the conditions down to what we think is acceptable. By doing this through the permitting process, just so there's a little public understanding around it, we can apply conditions as long as there is a lifting and a permit process around the no parking issue. So that is why we are coming through this process and how we are able to address some of these issues that have 23 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 been raised as concerns and Mr. Kendall's been wonderful trying to work with his neighbors every year and buffer some of the concerns and we certainly have tried to work with both parties to see what we can't do to make it a more positive experience for everyone through the holiday season. So council, maybe if someone could start with the conditions and any modifications that you would. Councilman Labatt: Why don't you take them 1 through 9 and take them one at a time and see. Mayor Jansen: Go for it. Councilman Labatt: Well I'd just say like 1, no. I have no problems with 1. Councilman Boyle: I don't have any problems with any one of the 9. Councilman Ayotte: I have a problem with 5. Mayor Jansen: Start there. Councilman Ayotte: I would like, and I'd like to add a condition. I think that it's beyond simply the function of flagging, as you've so eloquently depicted Ms. Burgess, so I'd like to have benchmark training by the sheriff's department to ensure that proper traffic control measure is taken. I think that can be done at city expense because I don't think it's going to be a big cost. Mayor Jansen: Can I clarify something? Councilman Ayotte: Yeah. Mayor Jansen: When you say benchmark training, are you referring to the flaggers? Councilman Ayotte: I'm not going to call them flaggers. It's traffic control. Teresa Burgess: Carver County has stated they will not train flaggers. Councilman Ayotte: Well then I think we should seek out some means of providing training. If they're not going to do it because of some reason, then there must be a concern on their part. The second condition I would like to see imposed someplace along this thing, because Mr. Kendall and you on the discussion on this map had indicated that the traffic control plan or layout of things wasn't exactly the way that you sought, so I'd like to see a safety, a public safety entity come up with a parking plan or traffic control plan that would be acceptable by Mr. Kendall and by the city since there was a disconnect here. So I. Mayor Jansen: As Teresa pointed out, that is typically an administrative part of this process. Councilman Ayotte: I understand. You asked me what condition I want. That's a condition I want. I want some sort of public safety endorsed plan that will assure that we have some... Mayor Jansen: Fine. Continue. Councilman Ayotte: Public safety. That's the condition I want to impose. Mayor Jansen: Okay. 24 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Teresa Burgess: And if I could just clarify. All of our temporary lifting of no parking are supplied to the sheriff's department for comment before finalization. So they all do go through the Carver County Sheriff's Department. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Councilman Ayotte: So there would be review and approval of whatever's produced? Okay. Then that should be stated as a condition. Teresa Burgess: We have never had one rejected. It's part of the normal permit process but we can add it as a condition. Councilman Ayotte: All swell and good. I'd like it listed as a condition so it's in black and white that we've had a review and acceptance by the Carver County Sheriff's Department. Mayor Jansen: So that's how you need it? You just need it reviewed by. Councilman Ayotte: And then the other condition is, the discussion I heard, these isn't just a function of flagging because you did indicate that people would be taking people back and forth across the road to make sure that things were done properly. Example, ADA. Okay? You've got someone who is a paraplegic, quadriplegic. Is there going to be some sort of arrangement for that? Bob Kendall: Usually they don't, usually they stay in their vehicles. They just drive past. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. But nonetheless, there should be some sort of training. I think there should be a condition for that training. Councilman Boyle: Well one of the conditions does say experienced. We could change it to traffic control people versus flaggers. Councilman Ayotte: Well if they have a card CalTying traffic control certification of some sort I suppose, but I'm saying there should be something that baselines these people and make sure they have a certain skill set because it's just not flagging. As you've pointed out and a few other people have pointed out. Mayor Jansen: Okay council, other conditions. Councilman Labatt: Well I'd just like to comment on Bob's. Councilman Ayotte: Don't start with the fifth grade thing again. Councilman Labatt: Well, I guess in 15 years of law enforcement and watching, everything I've done I mean, it's kind of common sense and when fifth graders can do a job at Laredo Drive crossing guard at 9:00 in the morning, I think Mr. Kendall can get adults to don the proper reflective vest and the lighted flashlight if he has to and control the traffic out there. So, but then the other one. I'm okay with the Carver County review. It's already in there so just put the word in there. There's been no accidents here so far, thank god. I'm willing to bet that we've had double that number in the Target parking lot in the last year. That's one accident, right so. 25 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: We need flaggers in the Target parking lot. Councilman Labatt: So I do mean, it's just getting back to common sense here. The only thing I'd like to talk about the hours of operation. And in reading Mr. Kendall's letter, he, the midnight mass people that go to church until midnight and they get out at 1:00 and want to stop by to see the lights. I'd have to have them drive by to a dark display so I'd like to look at, I mean on Christmas Eve day, extending it a little bit beyond 1:00 a.m. And I'm torn between why we are taking an hour away from what our ordinance says. I realize we may put conditions on. It doesn't say we will. I think we can put conditions on when we issue, when we're looking at a parking permit like this and whether we try to go with 11:00 or 10:30 but on a Friday night to shut it down at 10:00. Mayor Jansen: Can I ask you a question to where you're going on that? Councilman Labatt: Sure. Mayor Jansen: You just mentioned like Friday nights for the 11. It's during the school week that the 10:00 seems to be more appropriate. What if the 11:00 were on the weekends, like the Friday-Saturday where he's the busiest. Councilman Peterson: We're at 1:00 now, right? Mayor Jansen: No. Councilman Labatt: No. Mayor Jansen: Those are just on the special days. Yeah. Right now it's 10:00... Councilman Labatt: So we can go 10:00 Monday through Thursday and 11:00 on Friday and Saturday. Is that what you're thinking? Mayor Jansen: Sunday would probably be til 10:00. Councilman Labatt: Sunday, yeah. Yeah, Sunday will be 10:00, yeah. Mayor Jansen: So Sunday through Thursday til 10:00, and then Friday and Saturday could be til 11:00. Yeah? Councilman Labatt: Are you okay Craig? Is that okay Mr. Kendall? Just give me a nod. Bob Kendall: Well Sundays would be good til 11:00. Councilman Ayotte: Say again? Bob Kendall: Sunday's to 11:00. Teresa Burgess: Sundays are a school night. Councilman Boyle: When school's in session. Teresa Burgess: When school's in session, correct. 26 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Which it is during those months. Councilman Boyle: No, not all the time though. Mayor Jansen: I don't have a problem if you're wanting to extend to 11:00 on those busier nights on Friday and Saturday. Councilman Labatt: Maybe we want to consider 11:00 on Sunday? Craig you will? Bob? Craig? Councilman Ayotte: I've got a, is this pork barrel? On the last week, I've got, I don't know if you can tell. I've got a little bit of... Mayor Jansen: Are we still on number 6? With hours. Councilman Ayotte: Well yeah. I'll counter Councilman Labatt's point of 11:00 and your's Mayor. But on the last week from the 6th to the 12th we could have reduced hours somehow put in as a condition. I'd be more receptive to the whole thing. You think I'm difficult on this one, wait til the next one. Councilman Labatt: I thought we had it worked out here Bob, as we've got 4 against 1 right now. Councilman Peterson: Let's just not make it too complicated, that's my goal. Councilman Boyle: I agree. We're cutting some pretty fine... Of course I'd like to go to 10:45. Councilman Labatt: 10:00 Monday through Thursday. Councilman Peterson: It will be after January 14th before we get this thing done. Councilman Labatt: 10:00 Monday through Thursday, 11:00 Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And let's talk Christmas Eve day. Christmas Eve for midnight massers. Councilman Ayotte: Is this a leap year? Councilman Peterson: I don't know. Feels like it. Councilman Labatt: Can we, Mr. Kendall, and I was down there at Christmas Eve night so, after midnight mass. Mayor Jansen: I think 1:00's way late enough. Councilman Ayotte: Yeah. Mayor Jansen: For the few that. Councilman Labatt: Okay, I realize I'm losing that one so I'll shut up. That's all I had. Mayor Jansen: How about a motion. 27 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Councilman Labatt: Okay, i'll make a motion that. Teresa Burgess: Could we clarify real quick what the hours were, so i get it in the agreement. Mayor Jansen: i believe it will be in the motion. Teresa Burgess: Okay. Councilman Labatt: Make approval, that we approve the, lifting the parking. No parking zone subject to the following conditions. 1 through 4 remain the same. 5, we will add that reviewed by the Carver County Sheriff's. You know normally what happens, we'll put that in there. 6 will be that the hours of operation will be Monday through Thursday until 10:00 p.m. Friday, Saturday, Sunday, 11:00 p.m. Everything else will stay the same. 7 and 8 stay the same. 9 stays the same. Mayor Jansen: Great. Second? Councilman Boyle: Second. Councilman Labatt: Craig, you've got this look. Mayor Jansen: Any questions on discussion of the motion? Councilman Peterson: Well we talked about having the staff work with the applicant to determine where the appropriate parking... Councilman Labatt: Okay, do you want to make it a friendly amendment number 10 then? Councilman Peterson: That'd be affirmative. Councilman Labatt: Okay. So then number 10 then would be, staff and the Kendall's would make a walk through of the site to determine the parking and no parking zones. Mayor Jansen: And who was the second? Councilman Boyle: i seconded. Mayor Jansen: Did you second the friendly amendment? Councilman Boyle: i'll second the friendly amendment. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other discussion of the motion? i'll call for a vote. Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council approve the temporary lifting of no parking restrictions as shown on the parking permit for November 27, 2002 through January 12, 2003, subject to the following conditions: 1. No permanent or semi-permanent structures shall be allowed in the right-of-way. The mailbox is exempt from this restriction. 28 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 The property owner shall remove all permanent or semi-permanent structures from the drainage utility easement(s) by February 1, 2003, or apply for an easement encroachment agreement through the City Engineer's Office. The property owner shall provide and post temporary signage in keeping with the 2001 Minnesota Manual of Uniform Traffic Control warning of slow traffic. The property owner shall be responsible for pick-up of litter and other debris associated with the temporary lifting of no parking. The property owner shall coordinate traffic control to keep traffic moving through the area and direct people wishing to stop to appropriate parking areas. In past years the Carver County Sheriff's Department and the City's CSO have increased patrols in the area to deal with traffic and noise related issues during the event, which has reduced coverage in other areas of the city. The property owner shall work with the Carver County Sheriff's Department to obtain any necessary traffic control enforcement during the event at no cost to the City of Chanhassen. Using experienced flaggers to keep traffic moving during the event may reduce this need. All flagging must be in compliance with the 2001 edition of the Minnesota Flagging Handbook, and reviewed by the Carver County Sheriff's Department. Hours of operation shall be limited to dusk until 10:00 p.m. Monday through Thursday, and until 11:00 p.m. on Friday, Saturday and Sundays, with the exception of November 27, December 24, December 25, and December 31 when the hours of operation shall be limited to dusk until 1:00 a.m. The loud speakers shall not be audible from any of the adjoining properties with the windows and doors shut. The property owners shall provide contact information where someone can be reached 24 hours, 7 days a week during the display. The property owners will sign an agreement acknowledging the conditions of approval and that violation of any of these conditions may result in immediate revocation of either or both of the temporary parking permit and the loudspeaker permit. In addition, the property owners may be held liable for costs incurred by the City for enforcement of the conditions or the agreement. 10. The applicant will work with the city staff to determine the parking/no parking zones. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: For such a simple topic, it is always painstaking to get through this one so I appreciate everyone's patience and Mr. Kendall, good luck to you out there and we'll look forward to enjoying your lights and appreciate your working with the neighbors on their issues. Again thanks for hearing their concerns. Thank you. Councilman Peterson: Councilman Ayotte has volunteered three nights to flag so. Councilman Ayotte: And no one's crossing the street. 29 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Councilman Peterson: He's wearing his camouflage outfit. Councilman Labatt: I'll be there to supervise Bob too. Councilman Boyle: Maybe we'd better discuss the times. Todd Gerhardt: I want to see his flag certification. UPDATE ON ROUNDHOUSE RENOVATION PROJECT, DEANNA BUNKLEMAN. Mayor Jansen: Staff did receive a phone call from Deanna Bunkleman late this afternoon. She did have something of an emergency come up and has asked if we would move this to our next agenda, which would be the 28th. If council is receptive to doing that, I would just need a motion to table and move it to October 28th. Councilman Ayotte: With caveat. Mayor Jansen: And I think that's our last tabling and moving of the project. We need an update. Councilman Peterson: Take that as a motion and a second then. Councilman Peterson: I think and the caveat, I don't think I agree with Bob. I think we need to make a decision to either move ahead or start demolition. Next time. Next meeting. Councilman Ayotte: And I'd like to read that before the next meeting. I don't want to be hit on the 28th and then a short time line to make a decision. And I placed a call to Mr. Hoffman's office today asking for that so we can revisit all the milestones associated with what we agreed upon. Mayor Jansen: And I'm sorry, I missed what you said. You want a review of the history? Councilman Ayotte: I want a review of the history. A read ahead so that when we have the visit on the 28th we're educated before. Mayor Jansen: Okay. You want a review and a report of the current situation so that we're not having it delivered at the council meeting. Councilman Ayotte: Yes ma'am. Mayor Jansen: Okay, understood. So with that, if someone would make that motion please. To table. Councilman Peterson: Motion to table. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Labatt: Second. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to table the update on the Roundhouse renovation project to October 28, 2002. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. 30 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 CONSIDER REQUESTS FOR SITE PLAN APPROVAL; NORTHEAST CORNER OF LAKE DRIVE AND MAIN STREET, VOP I AND PEREGRINE CORPORATION: mo A 4-STORY BUILDING CONSISTING OF UNDERGROUND PARKING, 19,000 SQUARE FEET OF STREET LEVEL COMMERCIAL AREA, AND 2-3 STORIES FOR 54 APARTMENT UNITS; AND Bo A 2-STORY 11,000 SQUARE FOOT BANK BUILDING WITH DRIVE THROUGH WINDOWS AND UNDERGROUND PARKING WITH VARIANCES FOR BUILDING MATERIALS, PARKING AND SIGNAGE. Kate Aanenson: Thank you. To put this into context. This is the Villages on the Pond project. The subject piece that we're talking about is right here. To put it in context, the Foss Swim School, America Inn, Houlihan's, Culver's. I'll show you a colored rendering but I just want to give you an orientation on Lake Drive. This will be the bank over here. There will be underground parking that will be accessed coming this way, so you have access on Lake Drive, and then interior parking as well on the street. Lake Drive parking. So the proposal before you tonight includes a site plan review. There's two buildings. The 4 story building which includes the 54 apartments and retail and underground parking is 19,000 square feet and a separate 2 story 11,000 square feet. Between the bank and the office building there will be an open space courtyard area. As I mentioned before, there is underground parking. Our standards require 1 1/2 per unit. They are asking for a variance for that. There is underground parking with the bank, but with the ratio and type of apartments there, we believe the 1.3, which they meet, should be adequate, so we are recommending approval on the parking variance. The other variance that's being requested is for a sign on the bank. As you can see on the site plan, our ordinance requires on the interior that the signs be above on this faCade. There was different standards put in place for those along Highway 5. When we put this PUD together we recognized some of the uses would have an orientation along Highway 5. This was interior again to be more pedestrian. The applicants are requesting a variance for the bank sign in height. Again the height the ordinance for this site is 20 feet. In the staff report, in the executive summary there is a compulation of some of the other sign heights in the area. That's actually on page 8, giving you a summary of some of the other signs and the heights. And then the other request for variance is for EIFS. I'll just go through this, the different faces of the building. The bank itself, and the residential. Again the residential does not have a request of percentage of EIFS. The Planning Commission did request to look at some of the color, the similar color on the back of this side of the residential. And the final faces. So if you look at the compulation again under the executive summary in the first page, the bank was broken down. The Planning Commission wanted to see specifically what those percentages were. The bank itself is 16.5 and the ordinance requires the 15 percent. One of the other issues that came up as a part of the hearing with some of the neighbors on Marsh Drive and their sight lines and traffic. In reviewing the EAW, as far as the traffic control ultimately out on Highway 5, the signal there and possibly at Lake Drive, but interior will be stop lights. Again part of the design of the Villages is to have on site parking which should do some of the traffic calming. The other issue is the sight lines between these homes, and the applicant, and this was included in your packet, prepared the sight lines and then there's a specific one for each home. So these are the homes to the side, and these were shared with the neighbors too so they had an opportunity to see it to show, I'm not going to go through all those but since you had a chance to see them but we did respond to that. And again they were 900 feet plus away from that and there is other buildings in front. For example Foss Swim School and the tree line. Again the Planning Commission did review this. There was a lot of deviation as far as what they wanted to see regarding the height of the sign. A lot of discussion again. The goal of the bank certainly is to get a great sight line. We believe at 20 feet they can 31 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 be seen, enough distance for direction. That was their concern, will people be able to find it? There still is an opportunity to put a directional sign on Lake Drive. This way to get into the bank. To put up cueing, so staff didn't support that. The Planning Commission kind of split their recommendation but didn't come to the consensus. Since there's no consensus, staff again forward the recommended denial for the variance. Again the EIFS, you still... The site plan approval includes the two uses and the variances are put into the recommended condition of approval. There is a separate motion for the denial of the variance for the 20 foot height. And the conditions of our approval are in the staff report. So with that I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff? Councilman Labatt: Kate, excuse me. The sight lines supplied by Mika. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Councilman Labatt: Have you verified these? Kate Aanenson: Yes. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Kate Aanenson: We supplied the data for the lot surveys, based on our information. Councilman Labatt: Do you have the photographs that they took and gave to Bob? Kate Aanenson: We gave them the lot surveys which show the low elevations. Councilman Labatt: In Vernelle's letter it says that, she took some photographs and she provided Bob with a set. Kate Aanenson: These, I'm sorry... Mayor Jansen: That little board sitting over to the side. Kate Aanenson: This. The big thing I brought down. Yes. I don't know if we can zoom in on each one or would you like to pass it around, whichever is more convenient. There's a series of them. Do you want to just it around? Councilman Labatt: Maybe that would be easier. I just want to look at them to see. Kate Aanenson: And then the material samples which I did bring too are all on the board here, but we believe it's a well conceived building, and so does the Planning Commission. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other questions for staff? Councilman Labatt: No. Councilman Peterson: My only question Kate, have we given a height variance in Villages yet on the signs? 32 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Kate Aanenson: There was an interpretation. We've done several amendments to the Villages on the Pond. When they came in and asked for the most recent ones, one of their requests was for a height variance. The staff at that time had recommended no. We say we take it as an ad hoc basis. Councilman Peterson: And we supported the declination I believe, right? Kate Aanenson: Pardon me? Councilman Peterson: We supported declining it right? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Mayor Jansen: Any other questions for staff at this time? Councilman Ayotte: No ma'am. Mayor Jansen: Seeing no other questions, I know we have the applicants here. I don't know if there's any additional information that you would like to add. You're certainly welcome to or to address the two variances. I don't know if council's had an opportunity to actually meet Mika. Mika Milo. Certainly welcome this evening. I know you also attended the Planning Commission meeting as well. And then Jeff Burzinski. Jeff Burzinski: Thanks Linda. I'm Jeff Burzinski and I'm President of Peregrine Corporation and founder of the organization, and just wanted to take a minute and if I could, I've got some photographs of signage that we've used on our current location in Chaska, which you can tell by the architecture if you've seen our building in Chaska. The architecture is very much the same. You'll be able to tell this is a Community Bank, whether it's Community Bank Chaska or Community Bank Chanhassen. And I think our signage, at least for our purposes is not been one to be intrusive or ostentatious. It's very simply stated. And I wonder ifI can just pass these out. Thank you. It's very simply, it's a copper signage that is back lit. Again as you can, I'll wait just for a moment. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. JeffBurzinski: I think Todd, there's one for you too. Again it's very simply stated. It's not today that's kind of catch your eye. It's bright yellow, bright green, bright red. Our's is really our PMS color or logo, it's back lit. On the left hand side of the paper will be the day picture and the right hand side would be the night picture. The middle right, excuse me. I said that wrong. Left hand side is day, right is night. The middle right hand side is really a ground lit sign. And I'm aware too that within Sector II, which I understand is Highway 5, that there are provisions to allow signage above 20 feet. With the wetland and the visibility between us and being set back from Highway 5, it would be our desire in making this kind of investment, if there's some kind of way that we could at least make sure that people know that there is a Community Bank located on that site. Again, this is not to be, meant to be pedestrian unfriendly either, as subtly as it is, and you're welcome too to come down and drive by our current location just to see what affect it is so. I understand too the difficulty in sometime making compromises and when you have policies and yet at the same time, if there's any way that you would consider some kind of exception, we'd appreciate it. I think within the planning session, as I recall, there was a sincere attempt on their part to approve it as presented, but I don't, for some reason we couldn't quite get there and get that consensus so, thank you. 33 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Mayor Jansen: I do have one question, ifI could Mr. Burzinski. There's two locations on the plan that note the signage. The one higher up and then of course the logo below. I'm assuming the logo will be your CB. Jeff Burzinski: CB, Community Bank. Correct. Mayor Jansen: So the highest point. Jeff Burzinski: Would be Community Bank Chanhassen, which for the best example with that would be, well either one. As you can see, just the words Community Bank Chanhassen. Or you could use the example in the picture, Community Bank Chaska. Mayor Jansen: Okay. I didn't know if that point was actually large enough to fit all of that wording up there. Jeff Burzinski: Yeah, again I'm not an architect so I'd have to defer to Mika, and we pay him lots of money to figure those things out so. Mayor Jansen: Alright. Any questions for Mr. Burzinski? Okay, thank you. Okay. This is not a public hearing. If there is anyone present that would like to make comments, you're certainly welcome to at this point. I would just ask that we keep your comments limited to 5 minutes if we could. But if there is anyone present who'd like to speak to this, you can certainly step forward to the podium at this time. Okay. Otherwise I will bring this back. Good evening Al. A1 Klingelhutz: Good evening. Mayor Jansen: Good to see you. A1 Klingelhutz: Well I don't get round too much anymore but. Mayor Jansen: Then we appreciate it when you do come to visit us. A1 Klingelhutz: I think this addition to Chanhassen will be a big asset. I like the configuration of the building. Been doing business with Jeff over in Chaska. My personal feeling about him, I think he's a great banker. They watch my finances pretty close and I trust them with them, and I think that's important about a person that's coming into the community. That we can show, that he can show a lot of trust for what he's doing for people. The first time I went to Jeff's bank, I sat down and talked with him for quite a while, which I normally like to do with anybody that I do business with, and I just felt that hey, I found a man that I really liked to work with. In fact I'll be investing some of my money in the bank so that's how far I will go. I think we couldn't do any better for having that type of a person controlling a bank in Chanhassen. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you Al. It's a wonderful testimonial. Appreciate it. With that I'll bring this back to council. Council, any questions at this point for staff or I'll open it for comments. Councilman Boyle: I have one question Kate. The Americana sign, is that on here? The height of that. Kate Aanenson: It should be. 34 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Councilman Boyle: Was that on page 8? Kate Aanenson: Yeah. Mayor Jansen: I didn't see the sign heights in there. Meaning the Americlnn? Councilman Boyle: Yeah. What'd I say? Mayor Jansen: Americana. I assume you meant the other bank. Councilman Boyle: No, I meant Americlnn. The hotel. Mayor Jansen: Is it in there? Kate Aanenson: Yeah, just a... Mayor Jansen: I went to 8 and I didn't find it. I had e-mailed Bob Generous on that and he got back to me saying it was 37 feet. Kate Aanenson: It was, yes. Mayor Jansen: That was the only building that I asked about. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, and again that was a different sector .... again the orientation, what the staff had recommended no. This shows again the site location of the building. Facing the view across here. So just. Councilman Labatt: So Highway 5's where? Councilman Boyle: South of that? Councilman Labatt: Bottom of our screens, right? Okay. Mayor Jansen: And the bank is actually in the comer of that L. Kate Aanenson: Right. So I'm going to show that to you, and just to give you a context, looking across the pond. Councilman Boyle: Wait a minute, don't leave that just yet. What's the elevation right there? I mean there's a hill, a pretty good sized hill. Kate Aanenson: I'll show you more clearly... So the ponds here, because this doesn't show. Again here's the bank comer that we're talking about right here. This is the pond looking across here so you're looking across the pond where this data sheet is. Can you back it up just a bit Nann? Thank you. So you're looking across the pond here. That's why the staff came up with the 20 and the visibility. If you look at this, this comer is this faCade across the pond, and that's when staff came to that conclusion. Again it does have visibility across that pond. That's how we came up with... Again because of the different sectors too. Councilman Boyle: Thank you. 35 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Good question. Okay, council. Comments? Councilman Peterson: Yeah, I think generally I think. Councilman Ayotte: It's great. Councilman Peterson: Yeah, and Bob said great. It's wonderful. It fits in with what we had envisioned and what Mika had envisioned years ago that we laboriously went through over the years, so I applaud the architecture and applaud the efforts of getting this thing built. I think the only question I've had on the project is the signage issue. And Linda you brought up, will the Community Bank of Chanhassen fit up there. I would bet you that it wouldn't. You wouldn't be able to read it. I'm assuming it's face is probably 8 to 10 feet wide, and I don't know Mika if you could share with what it is. But to get the sign that big up there, you'd have to have a pretty big cupola or whatever you want to call that area so. Assuming that it really wouldn't fit well and the fact that it's in a sensitive area, I guess I would be right now motivated not to approve the sign variance, but to wholeheartedly approve everything else in it. Mayor Jansen: Okay. If council doesn't mind, I'm going to ask one more question on the signage on the bank, and that's on the lower portion of the bank where it says bank signage. I'm assuming that that will read Chanhassen Community Bank, correct? Where it's, I believe it's at the 20 foot. I think that's 20 foot, isn't that right Kate? Kate Aanenson: Correct... Mayor Jansen: Yeah, along there. I'm assuming that that will read the full Chanhassen Community Bank. Councilman Peterson: It will sit at about 15 to 18 feet. Councilman Boyle: Would it be visible from Highway 5? Kate Aanenson: Again the intent, we believe it had sight lines because of the wetland. Councilman Boyle: You believe it would? Kate Aanenson: Yes. Councilman Boyle: Okay. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you. Councilman Boyle: Bob, do you have anything? Councilman Ayotte: I agree with Craig. Councilman Boyle: I do too. I think it's just fantastic. It's everything we've been looking for. And everything that we should expect I guess. I believe the sign, because of the size of that cupola, is going to be not obtrusive. If we ask a business to come in, I think they should have the opportunity to let everybody know what type of business is there. I know that doesn't fit our guidelines of 20 feet, but I believe there should be exceptions sometimes. 36 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Mayor Jansen: And to that point, I guess what I'm looking at is that there are two opportunities above the 20 or 18 foot mark. Again I assume Kate that this would be above ordinance where the logo's located on the building as well as bank signage. I'm just wondering if one of those two would accommodate the logo and serve the purpose of the signage. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, this drawing here has the 20 foot, so you're somewhere in probably 30 foot with just the logo area, and then closer to over 40 feet on the other. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Kate Aanenson: So is that what you're saying? So there's a repeat of the 3. Mayor Jansen: And noting that if we provided one of the two locations on the higher elevation for the logo. Kate Aanenson: I think that's the same issue the Planning Commission was kind of struggling with. Maybe one of the two. Mayor Jansen: One of the two versus trying to get all of the verbiage up in that small space and it becoming so small that you can't really read it. If you have one of those upper elevations to be able to put the logo, I'm assuming it's that recognizable that if they're actually looking. And then your signage then along the lower portion of the building providing the full name of the bank then, at that lower level. It's just, it's such a subtle logo. I don't think it would be as distracting and if it's in those muted colors up above. If anything it looks more architectural versus being a real sign element, I guess is my thought. If you would care to speak to that. Either Mika or Jeff. Jeff Burzinski: Now as I may have said to some of you, this is not necessarily a deal breaker, but it is important to us and we'd be willing to work with staff and council to come up with some compromise. I think the bigger issue however on the 20 feet, if I could. Is on the south elevation. And I'd actually like to have Mika maybe address this and just kind of what our thoughts were. I mean let me just first of all say philosophically we feel very strongly about drive-up's need to be very ample. I mean there's this real sense by most people who approach a drive-up, they're claustrophobic. No matter what you do, it seems very narrow and it's standard 8 feet, and people may not be aware of that. But one of the things that really sets the perception is the height of the drive-up, and so for instance in Chaska we have a very high drive-up. It's very prominent. To kind of reduce that sense of gee, can I fit through here? Can I get through here. So we did that. And knowing too some of the sensitivities to drive-up's, even though they were food related, we did want to understate our drive-up facility and not make it too large. But I think also with that we did some design for the roof, and I'm going to have Mika just address that and talk about, if that signage were not to go there, what impact that might have on the roof line. Mika can you? Mika Milo: It's my pleasure to be able to answer some questions of the members of the City Council and my name is Mika Milo. I am a principal with Milo Architecture Group in Eden Prairie, San Diego, and I live in ...Drive, #207, St. Paul, Minnesota 55108. When we, I know specifically the signage because that looks like the most important topic right now than the other question comes sometime... But the signage has been really talked through and... And also bearing in mind what Jeff already said that, that that is not that bright shiny red, huge colored sign or neon or something like that. It's a very subtle, back lit, very elegant signage that is appropriate for the bank or office type establishment. So that is very important to bear in mind. Therefore it blends much better with the architecture. It is not coming out. It's not too aggressive or... so that needs to be kept in mind. And regarding the position of the signage, it has been made to work 37 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 with the architecture. So that the signage is really incorporated... That is both the case for the signage here on the comer where it is part of the tower, as well as doing the signage on the back side of the building, which is in essence also the front side facing the Lake Drive. Actually there is no back side on that building at all. But this one facing Lake Drive is facing the street, and this one facing the Highway 5. So the signage really, the signage that is facing the Lake Drive can't be seen from the.., and the signage facing the freeway can't be seen from Lake Drive. But the traffic is very... Lake Drive and the freeway for the... So therefore we propose the signage both facing the Lake Drive on the back here, as well as on the tower here and the front part of, within 20 feet facing the highway. Again, and I thank you very much. This is the face facing the Lake Drive so, the tower is right here. Right here. So it will be too small and also remote from the view on Lake Drive. For the people driving on Lake Drive, they will see the sign here.., see this sign. This one here. And the people on the freeway... Now, if we were not to do here the bank signage on that face here, on the Lake Drive, then I think I would change the architecture because that faCade has been, you see how it's been definitely designed and the brick comes up and then the faCade comes, on that.., sign with the cornice, very strong cornice, so the signage really fits very well here. And that has been made.., of that sloped roof. If I don't have the signage here, which needs to be that high and about that size in order to be read from the Lake Drive... Drive, but east people, then the architecture will change and I will really be letting.., because that is not even involved in that high wall. Why then do we need that big, high wall there? I would then simply cut down and have the.., maybe so sheet metal roof line around, and that would be I think much more boring and the quality of the design would really suffer and the aesthetic of that face. This is really a face. It's not a back side. It's a really nice back spacing.., it's almost like the main face, while here on the freeway, people are farther away. Quite farther away and they will not see much of the signage down below here within the 20 feet here because of marsh, the vegetation and everything else, the street and so on, so therefore it's important to have some sign or symbol, something higher up. I agree with you, with a very good remark that the size of that portion here on the cupola, we could.., bank, Community Bank Chanhassen is going to be rather small letters. So to overcome that, maybe we could consider having the logo being on top... Having the logo there instead of having the.., description. It was just like 3-4 letters would be enough to see from here. But even if we put Community Bank of Chanhassen, it will be able to be read from the near-by but not from the freeway. You need 30 feet to 1 inch. 30 feet this way will require 1 inch of sign. That's the.., approximate assessment. And when we look into these signs, this one, if that is 200 feet, then we are talking about 200, 400, about 500 or 600. Let's say 500 feet from the tower to the freeway. Then as I said, every 30 feet is 1 inch. So for 300 we would be 10 inches. So we would need to have the letters so sized of about 16 to 18 inches letters. Now at least to be seen from the freeway. 18 inches, if you now say Community Bank Chanhassen, I think to read this...to be honest, I did not do the study with how much that would be seen. I did the study on facing the Lake Drive, but this one we did not do. I think it will be seen, but not easy to read that small and therefore maybe we consider making that... Maybe we can incorporate Community Bank of Chanhassen here.., and the redesign and replace the signage saying that. In that case we have this face here to have it... down below. We just have the.., so anyway, on that one we can work out some of the... Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. What I'm obviously hearing is that we were neglecting to really look at the south elevation and that signage. I was primarily focused on the tower. Councilman Boyle: As was I. Councilman Peterson: I think as we should be. 38 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Kate Aanenson: One point of clarification though is that the staff's opinion again was that, if you're coming into here and they have to get, it's really for cueing because you have to come in this way to go through the driveway so we believe that appropriate signage will also handle this by putting bank driveway.., similar to what some of the other businesses do. It doesn't have to be. Mayor Jansen: To be more of a monument sign is what you're saying. Kate Aanenson: What you're geared for, right. Mayor Jansen: For more the pedestrian. Kate Aanenson: Right. Because really that's what they're trying to do, as Mr., as Mika indicated, is really for cueing. So how to get in the, again the hotel is a different traffic pattern as we saw as the bank does as far as users. Certainly he wants to have a regional draw, we understand that, but again the staff's position on some of the signage was the diluting of the ordinance out there as a whole. Mayor Jansen: Understood, yep. Thank you. Sure Vemelle. Vernelle Clayton: I would just like to clear something up about the directional sign. Mayor Jansen: Name and address for the record please. Vernelle Clayton: I'm sorry. Mayor Jansen: That's okay. Vernelle Clayton: Vernelle Clayton Madam Mayor. I live at 422 Santa Fe Circle here in Chan. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Vernelle Clayton: Thank you for letting me speak. I just need to clear up something with respect to the suggested remedy for, or the alternative to having the taller sign. We aren't, we won't be permitting that type of sign for any particular tenant or owner out there. We will be having some pole signs at various comers that say you know, St. Hubert's Church this way. Starbucks that way but not any particular single user. And it won't be on land. What the suggestion was that it be off on Lake Drive, which they won't own so that probably wouldn't work long term for you. Kate Aanenson: But you could make it work. Vernelle Clayton: Well, you could force another landowner to have a sign, but then we have other. Then you are giving something to the bank that you didn't give to say Ed Pidgel, so. Mayor Jansen: Okay, understood. Thank you. Let me bring this back to council. I'm okay with one of the two locations on the tower containing the logo. Which I would assume then would translate to it being at the tallest location and then the lower location being more the architectural detail, like is reflected in one of the other squares and one of the cupolas. So I would go with just the one logo sign on this tower. 39 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Councilman Labatt: So, I lost my drawing... So the one, we'll call this the H here. So that one on the top of the, the red one. Mayor Jansen: Yep, that says logo would go. Councilman Labatt: But the top of the cupola. Councilman Boyle: Is where the red one could go. Mayor Jansen: Could be where the logo would go. Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, and on the back side? Councilman Labatt: What about the south elevation? Mayor Jansen: I'm torn. Councilman Labatt: I'm for it. Mayor Jansen: Well and it's subtle enough, and I don't know if part of the condition, in that we are, if we do grant a variance would be to make sure that it does stay in more the neutral tones so it's again tonal to the building, and no one comes in after the fact and have ownership turn over and it turns into a bright red sign, you know up at this height. Councilman Labatt: Couldn't we attach it to the variance? That it's only for the bank and if they were to sell and a new tenant came in that they have to come in for a new variance and meet the sign requirements. Councilman Peterson: Why would we do that though? I mean that would. Councilman Labatt: Well because if we, if we're going to say. Councilman Boyle: It could be obtrusive. Mayor Jansen: I think you just want to restrict it to the color. Councilman Peterson: Yeah. Let me throw a different perspective at you. You know I think that in all due respect to the marketing, the logo isn't going to attract people to the bank. They're not going to know what it is. Councilman Labatt: No, but it's their identity though. Councilman Peterson: But it won't, your intent from the highway is to know what it is, and it's not going to have a McDonald's kind of a symbol that there's a McDonald's there. People are going to see that, they're not going to have a clue. Councilman Boyle: No initially. Councilman Peterson: Even, but they're going to have to drive up to it and see the name or look at it from a lower level to see what it is. The point of us giving a variance is almost moot because it's not getting him a marketing point, which is what they want is they want the name viewed 40 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 from Highway 5. So I'd be motivated to say, leave that highest point as a cupola, and give them the variance on the south side. And then you don't have to worry about somebody else moving in there years from now or whatever, but again if their intent is to pull people in and let.., be viewed from Highway 5. And they're not going to have that from the logo. My humble opinion. Councilman Boyle: Well I respect your humble opinion, however I do think that logos do work. I mean look at the target for Target. I mean after a certain period of time they're going to know that that logo is Community Bank of Chanhassen. That's my feeling on a marketing side. Councilman Labatt: I thought it was going to be a long... Mayor Jansen: So Craig did I hear you then on the south elevation, suggest that you were okay with that bank signage? Granting a variance for that. Councilman Peterson: Yeah, I think Mika's right. You'd have to redesign the back of the building if you didn't grant that, and that does add some architectural interest the way it is. I think it would be less architectural interesting if we put the seamed roof on there. Mayor Jansen: Okay. I would just want some sort of stipulation that it stay in more those, the tonal colors so that we're not ending up with something we didn't expect. Councilman Boyle: Do we, what is the height? I'm sorry, I must have, is it, on the south elevation? Councilman Ayotte: 40 feet I think. Councilman Boyle: Oh is it that high? Mayor Jansen: Yep. It's high. Councilman Labatt: It's 3 feet higher than America Inn. Councilman Labatt: Can I diverge you away from the sign real quick? Mayor Jansen: Sure. Councilman Labatt: In looking at number 29 Kate. Condition number 29. And I'm just going back to our joint commission meeting with the Senior Commission. And all parking included in parking garages must be provided with accessible parking spaces dispersed among the various building entrances. Can we, you know the Senior Commission was, one of their big things was that they wanted designated senior parking stalls. Can we work with that? Kate Aanenson: We meet with him separate on that. We don't have an ordinance that says that, provide that. Councilman Labatt: Well I realize that but can we put in here, can we encourage the. Kate Aanenson: Sure you can put encourage. We can't force them. Councilman Labatt: Right, but I mean. 41 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Staff will work with the applicant. Councilman Labatt: But we're still meeting, or addressing the needs for the Senior Commission that said that we need more senior parking and obviously the Community Bank of Chanhassen may have senior citizens banking there. It might be one of those things we can help facilitate the goals of the Senior Commission. So that would be in the first one. The second one also has condition, the same condition as number 28. Where if we can just attach language and we would encourage the owner to work with our Senior Commission in obtaining senior citizen parking signs. Mayor Jansen: And you're just encouraging? Councilman Labatt: Just encouraging. Mayor Jansen: Just encouraging. Councilman Labatt: A nudge to strong encouragement maybe. I can send some of the Senior Commissioners over there. I'll drive them if I have to. Mayor Jansen: And they're not nearly so subtle. Councilman Labatt: I think they might work with them. Those are the only two I had. You know I would just give you my two cents worth on the variance. I believe when a person comes in and is willing to invest in the community with this building, we should work with them to allow them to advertise their business and I don't have a problem with the logo on the cupola and the south elevation. As long as it's the blending of the letters and...that's fine but I mean I'm in favor of both variances on both sides. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any other comments council? Councilman Boyle: I'm in agreement with Steve on both. The cupola and the south elevation. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Ayotte? Councilman Ayotte: I don't want to be impetuous. I just want to get the building in. I think it's beautiful and anything we can do to be a responsive to your needs within reason and I don't like the comment about possibly changing the design so, anything we can do to facilitate the process I think is the way to go, so I kind of, I swayed a bit. I'm in agreement with Gary and Steve. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Peterson. Councilman Peterson: I stand where I was before. I think it's, it'd be interesting to hear the owners perspective on that logo perhaps, on the upper area, or whether or not there's relevancy. Mayor Jansen: Mr. Burzinski? Would you care to address that for us? Jeff Burzinski: You know I have to admit being 32 months old, or young, that there probably aren't a lot of people right now that identify with CB, but I have to tell, whether it was just prudent risk management or not, when we started Peregrine Corporation, we did acquire the name rights for Community Bank Eden Prairie, Community Bank Victoria, Community Bank Shakopee. Will we ever be there? I don't know. Frankly I never thought I'd be here. CB stands 42 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 for Community Bank, and hopefully people recognize community first, bank second. We do have a strategic goal to have 40 percent brand and name recognition by the end of our first 5 years of operation. I think we've probably achieved that in our current location. I think we can achieve it here too but the logo is a big part of it so it's, it could be. Your comments were good from a marketing perspective. A lot of things that I didn't expect to happen, have in fact happened and it may be even more important than even I stated so. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. I'm in agreement as, I have to say this is, it's a beautiful project. Mika, it's just, it's going to really be a jewel for over in that area and I know we're all excited to see this go in so thank you for bringing forward such a good looking project for us, and I know the Planning Commission felt that way about it as well. With the, and I don't mean for us to spend so much time on the signage, but of course we do as we're going against design standards that have been followed throughout the entire development, but I do want to show some flexibility and I do recognize that the logo does look more architectural, so I think because it would be the logo, I'm less concerned. And because it is the muted colors, I think if anything it will be fine in the cupola. And again the upper sign, so we're doing one of the two, and the other goes to just an architectural detail. Not both locations, but just one logo. Kate Aanenson: I'm not clear on what you're... Mayor Jansen: Where it says bank signage. There. Kate Aanenson: You're giving them both? Mayor Jansen: No. Only the upper one. Councilman Peterson: Or one of the two, if they have a preference. Mayor Jansen: If they have a preference, so one of the two. And then the south elevation. So with that, if I could have a motion. Councilman Labatt: Sure. A couple of them I guess. Mayor Jansen: I think we have a few. Councilman Labatt: Move that we approve Site Plan #2002-7, plans prepared by Milo Architecture dated August 2, 2002, subject to the following conditions with the amendment on number 29 to encourage the applicant to work with our Senior Commission and obtaining senior citizen designated parking stalls on the site. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Boyle: Second. Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council approve Site Plan #2002-7, plans prepared by Milo Architecture Group, Inc., dated August 2, 2002, for a street level commercial and upper level apartment building with a variance for 1.35 underground parking spaces per unit based on the Findings of Fact and recommendations, and subject to the following conditions: 43 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 11 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. The applicant shall enter into a site plan agreement with the City and provide the necessary security to guarantee erosion control, site restoration and landscaping. Site plan approval is contingent on final platting of Outlot A, Villages on the Ponds 2nd Addition, to a block and lot designation. The developer shall work with the city to provide 20 percent of the units at affordable rents. Lighting shall comply with the Villages on the Ponds design standards. Signage shall comply with the Villages on the Ponds design standards. A separate sign permit is required for each sign. The applicant shall eliminate parkway maple from the plant schedule. A suitable replacement shall be substituted. Submit storm sewer design calculations for a 10 year, 24 hour storm event with drainage flow map. Add the following City of Chanhassen latest Detail Plate Nos.: 3101,5201, 5207 and 5300. The applicant is responsible to obtain and comply with all regulatory agency permits. Retaining walls over 4 feet in height must be designed by a registered engineer and requires an approved fence at the top of the wall. All plan sheets must be signed by a registered engineer. Add rock construction entrance a minimum of 75 feet in length and revise the note from 50 feet to 75 feet. Add a storm sewer schedule to the plans. Type II silt fence shall be used around the grading area. Also, existing catch basins around the site perimeter must be protected from construction-related sediment through the use of filter barriers (see City Detail Plate No. 5302). Add a legend to the plans. On the site plan, show the dimensions of the parking stalls, access aisles and driveway widths. Revise the grade to 3:1 maximum on the south side of the underground garage entrance. On the grading plan: · Show storm sewer size, type, class and slope. · Show CB and CBMH numbers, rim and invert elevations. 44 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 · On the utility plan, show all existing and proposed utility sewer type, class, size and slope. 19. A 10 foot clear space must be maintained around fire hydrants, i.e. street lamps, trees, shrubs, bushes, Qwest, Xcel Energy, Cable TV and transformer boxes. This is to ensure that fire hydrants can be quickly located and safely operated by firefighters. Pursuant to Chanhassen City Ordinance #9-1. 20. "No Parking Fire Lane" signs will be required as well as curbing to be painted yellow. Contact Chanhassen Fire Marshal for exact location of signs and curbing to be painted yellow. Pursuant to 1997 Minnesota Uniform Fire Codes Section 904.1. 21 The radius tums shall be designed to accommodate the turning of Chanhassen Fire Department's largest apparatus. Submit radius turns and dimensions to the Chanhassen City Engineer and Chanhassen Fire Marshal for review and approval. 22. The proposed parking deck over the underground parking must be built to support the load of Chanhassen Fire Department's largest apparatus or shall have vehicle height limiters installed. Contact Chanhassen Fire Marshal for additional requirements. 23. If Chanhassen Fire Department's aerial ladder truck is unable to negotiate access via the east parking lots, Fire Department standpipes along with fully sprinklered buildings will be required. 24. Additional fire hydrants will be required. Contact the Chanhassen Fire Marshal for locations. 25. The buildings must be protected with automatic fire sprinkler systems. 26. The building plans must be prepared and signed by design professionals licensed in the State of Minnesota. 27. The buildings must be constructed in accordance with the Minnesota State Building Code and the International Building Code (IBC) as amended by the State of Minnesota. The IBC is scheduled to become effective this fall. The architect must provide a detailed code analysis, during the preliminary plan stage, for review for compliance with the new code. Special attention must be paid to the fire-resistance and opening protection of the exterior walls between the two buildings, and the parking garage below, in relation to the placement of a property line. 28. An accessible route must be provided to both buildings, parking facilities, public transportation stops. 29. All parking areas, including parking garages, must be provided with accessible parking spaces dispersed among the various building entrances. The City encourages the applicant to work with the Senior Commission in obtaining senior citizen designated parking stalls on the site. 30. Accessible dwelling units must be provided in accordance with Minnesota State Building Code Chapter 1341. 45 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 31. The utility plan does not contain enough information for review at this time; plans will be reviewed when submitted for permit. 32. The building owner and/or their representatives shall meet with the Inspections Division to discuss plan review and permit procedures. In particular, type of construction and allowable area issues need to be addressed as soon as the Minnesota Amendments to the IBC are available. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: Next motion please. Councilman Labatt: Okay. I move that we approve Site Plan #2002-7, plans prepared by Milo Architecture dated August 2, 2002 for the 18,000 square foot two story bank and office building, with drive up facilities with a variance for 16 percent of EIFS based on the following finds and recommendations with the amendment to number 28. To again encourage the same applicant with the same nudge to work with the Senior Commission. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Boyle: Second. Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council approves Site Plan #2002-7, plans prepared by Milo Architecture Group, Inc., dated August 2, 2002, for an 11,000 square foot two story bank and office building with drive through facilities with a variance for the use of 16 percent EIFS based on the Findings of Fact and recommendations, and subject to the following conditions: The applicant shall enter into a site plan agreement with the City and provide the necessary security to guarantee erosion control, site restoration and landscaping. Site plan approval is contingent on final platting of Outlot A, Villages on the Ponds 2nd Addition to a block and lot designation. 3. Lighting shall comply with the Villages on the Ponds design standards. Signage shall comply with the Villages on the Ponds design standards. A separate sign permit is required for each sign. The applicant shall eliminate Parkway maple from the plant schedule. A suitable replacement shall be substituted. Submit storm sewer design calculations for a 10 year, 24 hour storm event with drainage flow map. Add the following City of Chanhassen latest Detail Plate Nos.: 3101,5201, 5207, and 5300. 8. The applicant is responsible to obtain and comply with all regulatory agency permits. 46 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 10. 11 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21 22. Retaining walls over 4 feet in height must be designed by a registered engineer and requires an approved fence at the top of the wall. All plan sheets must be signed by a registered engineer. Add rock construction entrance to a minimum of 75 feet in length and revise the note from 50 feet to 75 feet. Add a storm sewer schedule to the plans. Type II silt fence shall be used around the grading area. Also, existing catch basins around the site perimeter must be protected from construction-related sediment through the use of filter barriers (see City Detail Plate No. 5302). Add a legend to the plans. On the site plan, show the dimensions of the parking stalls, access aisles and driveway widths. Revise the grade to 3:1 maximum on the south side of the underground garage entrance. On the grading plan: · Show storm sewer size, type, class and slope. · Show CB and CBMH numbers, rim and invert elevations. · On the utility plan, show all existing and proposed utility sewer type, class, size and slope. A 10 foot clear space must be maintained around fire hydrants, i.e. street lamps, trees, shrubs, bushes, Qwest, Xcel Energy, Cable TV and transformer boxes. This is to ensure that fire hydrants can be quickly located and safely operated by firefighters. Pursuant to Chanhassen City Ordinance #9-1. ~No Parking Fire Lane" signs will be required as well as curbing to be painted yellow. Contact Chanhassen Fire Marshal for exact location of signs and curbing to be painted yellow. Pursuant to 1997 Minnesota Uniform Fire Codes Section 904.1. The radius tums shall be designed to accommodate the turning of Chanhassen Fire Department's largest apparatus. Submit radius turns and dimensions to the Chanhassen City Engineer and Chanhassen Fire Marshal for review and approval. The proposed parking deck over the underground parking must be built to support the load of Chanhassen Fire Department's largest apparatus or shall have vehicle height limiters installed. Contact Chanhassen Fire Marshal for additional requirements. If Chanhassen Fire Department's aerial ladder truck is unable to negotiate access via the east parking lots, Fire Department standpipes along with fully sprinklered buildings will be required. 47 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 23. Additional fire hydrants will be required. Contact the Chanhassen Fire Marshal for locations. 24. The buildings must be protected with automatic fire sprinkler systems. 25. The building plans must be prepared and signed by design professionals licensed in the State of Minnesota. 26. The buildings must be constructed in accordance with the Minnesota State Building Code and the International Building Code (IBC) as amended by the State of Minnesota. The IBC is scheduled to become effective this fall. The architect must provide a detailed code analysis, during the preliminary plan stage, for review for compliance with the new code. Special attention must be paid to the fire-resistance and opening protection of the exterior walls between the two buildings, and the parking garage below, in relation to the placement of a property line. 27. An accessible route must be provided to both buildings, parking facilities, public transportation stops. 28. All parking areas, including parking garages, must be provided with accessible parking spaces dispersed among the various building entrances. The City encourages the applicant to work with the Senior Commission in obtaining senior citizen designated parking stalls on the site. 29. The utility plan does not contain enough information for review at this time; plans will be reviewed when submitted for a permit. 30. The building owner and/or their representatives shall meet with the Inspections Division to discuss plan review and permit procedures. In particular, type of construction and allowable area issues need to be addressed as soon as the Minnesota Amendments to the IBC are available. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: We should have the variance. Councilman Labatt: And I would recommend that we approve a variance for installation of signage above 20 feet based upon the findings of fact and recommendations, right? Kate Aanenson: The motion said denial so findings of fact reflect that. Roger Knutson: You have another set of findings though, don't you Kate? For approval. Councilman Labatt: We'd have to come up with those findings I would imagine. Roger Knutson: You have findings for the variance for the building material and signage height. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Mayor Jansen: Okay, so we're alright. 48 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Kate Aanenson: Roger Knutson: Kate Aanenson: Can we just, are you on page 197 19, 20 and 21. It says denial of the variance. Correct, that's what I'm saying. Councilman Labatt: Yeah, we're recommending approving it. Kate Aanenson: They're recommending approval. Councilman Labatt: So we need to come up with Findings of Fact. Kate Aanenson: Thank you. That's what I was trying to read it the same way you were, because we recommended denial. Mayor Jansen: So do we need that to come back to us? Councilman Labatt: Why don't we just write them out right now. Councilman Peterson: Roger's having a heart attack. Roger Knutson: No, not yet. Councilman Labatt: We can work them out right now so we don't have to come back. Kate Aanenson: Clarification on the motion Steve. Can we put the sign band as shown on site plan August 2nd? Councilman Labatt: Okay. So let me go back to that page. So my motion would then be, to recommend approval of the variance for the installation of signage above 20 feet, based upon plans. Kate Aanenson: Or as shown on site plan dated August. Councilman Labatt: As shown on site plans dated August 2, 2002, supplied by Milo Architecture. Kate Aanenson: Right. And then just again, further clarification. One would be for the bank, over the bank canopy. Councilman Labatt: Bank canopy, south elevation. Kate Aanenson: Correct. And the other one. Councilman Labatt: And the cupola. Kate Aanenson: Okay, either the cupola or the logo, that was my understanding? Mayor Jansen: Right, one of the two. Councilman Labatt: Yeah. 49 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Kate Aanenson: And your finding would be that it be consistent based on architectural style? That'd be the findings? Roger? Muted neutral tones and the style of architecture as your finding. Roger Knutson: Yes. Councilman Peterson: Way to go Kate. Mayor Jansen: You're working with us real well here, thanks Kate. Councilman Boyle: Doing very good. Kate Aanenson: I'm biting my tongue as I'm doing this. Mayor Jansen: Yes you are, and we appreciate it. Roger Knutson: Those findings are in writing because Kate just wrote them down. Kate Aanenson: Yes, correct. Mayor Jansen: And so in your findings is that clarifying what we said about it needing to be the neutral colors? Kate Aanenson: Correct. And it's the logo and it's neutral and it matches the architecture. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So then we're okay if somebody else comes in and wants to paint it purple? Kate Aanenson: Yep. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Alright. Let's see, do we have a second? Councilman Boyle: Second. Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council approve a variance for the installation of signage above 20 feet, based upon the Site Plan, plans prepared by Milo Architecture Group, Inc., dated August 2, 2002, one being for the signage over the bank canopy on the south elevation, and the other for the logo on the cupola, subject to the Findings of Fact as prepared by staff regarding the color and architectural style. All voted in favor, except Councilman Peterson who abstained, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 0 to 1. Mayor Jansen: Based on what? Councilman Peterson: I can do whatever I want. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Motion passes 4-0 and 1 abstain. Thank you very much, and welcome to Chanhassen. We'll look forward to your coming into town and the project opening up for us. Also with some more commercial space as well so, thank you. 50 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 CONSENT AGENDA ITEMS. Mayor Jansen: Consent agenda items, l(e). Teresa Burgess: Madam Mayor and Council. If we could, I know we tabled it, but if we could re-visit item l(b) real quickly. Were there specific areas of the Manual you wanted to discuss in that work session so I can make sure I'm prepared on those areas. Since it's quite thick, I don't want to come in and say here you go. Mayor Jansen: If we could just have the council people who are concerned with that come in and go over it, versus it coming into a work session I think would be appreciated. Teresa Burgess: Certainly. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Let's just handle it that way. Teresa Burgess: And then I will re-schedule it, assuming those people are taken care of, back for consent. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Okay, so then let's come back to (e). APPROVAL OF RESOLUTION TO UPDATE SURFACE WATER MANAGEMENT WATER QUALITY AND WATER QUANTITY CONNECTION CHARGES. Councilman Peterson: And the only reason why I pulled that was, I just, we are essentially raising, not taxes but the cost of coming into Chanhassen, we are raising the price of getting a ticket into the city by increasing those rates by 20 some percent over a couple year period. I just think you know there's an impact there. We're already an expensive city to develop in and to buy land and build in, and we're not making it any easier and I just, I didn't feel as though it was appropriate for consent agenda because you know, we're increasing the cost of living for Chanhassen. Now is it, are we trying to make up some costs that the city is out? Yeah. But it's still going to be passed onto the people that are living and buying in Chanhassen. And I just think it doesn't seem appropriate that we not at least talk about that a little bit, or at least think about it before we put it on the consent agenda. Because it bothers me that we're going to raise the price to get into Chanhassen so relatively nonchalantly. So that being said. Mayor Jansen: Mr. Gerhardt, if you'd maybe like to provide a staff perspective on that item if. Todd Gerhardt: Well the cost of doing storm water management is difficult. We have to buy land at the going rate that development's are coming in, and the price of land has gone up over 20 percent in the last 3 years so. We're competing with the market in trying to purchase this land, if it isn't dedicated over to us. And we're also playing with the increase of construction costs and labor costs and benefits so we have to increase these utility costs just to keep up with the market. Mayor Jansen: So right now in essence we are subsidizing these projects if we're not charging enough. Is that what you're saying? Todd Gerhardt: Well we haven't charged it back to the general fund yet, but it could happen some day because we're not fully funding the cost of providing that service because the cost today have increased over 20 percent. 51 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Mayor Jansen: And this is saying the last that it was updated was '94? Todd Gerhardt: I believe so. Kate Aanenson: Yes. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And this is suggesting that our ordinance also read that it be reviewed more regularly, if I recall reading this correctly, so that it's actually being put into the resolution. Todd Gerhardt: Well it's one of the things I think we'll be talking about as our strategies under the Ehlers study is that we look at other revenue sources, and this is one of our other revenue sources that we don't charge back to the general fund. And that we put back to whatever the cost of that development is. And we should stay in line for what it costs to do my development to what a new development would be today, and charge them the cost. If you're not, you're under utilizing the revenues to try to create or maintain that pond. So it's my recommendation that we approve the increase just to stay up with inflation and what the market is doing. Councilman Ayotte: And it is for over a 3 year period so that 26 percent is spread over 3 years. And I called earlier on this point to see if we were in any way out of step. And although we can't compare to other cities, it's my understanding that we're not out of step given the valuation of land in Chanhassen. Kate Aanenson: That's correct. Councilman Boyle: Why can't we compare it to other communities? Kate Aanenson: Well our system is set up, it's based on land value. If you look at the equation, it's charged on a land use type so what people at the marketplace is showing for industrial or residential, that's what we need to. If we need to oversize a pond, then we have to compete, pay that appraised value to buy that extra acreage. So as Todd said we talked about with the Ehlers study, where we need to be fiscally responsible and get up to speed. Similarly the. Todd Gerhardt: Park and trail. Kate Aanenson: Park and trail does that but engineering also does that. Automatically adjusts for inflation every year. Unfortunately we haven't in this. People pay the utility. It doesn't affect that. That also maintains this, but this is our cost of also, with the new regulations that are coming along to provide and create, because we're only halfway developed that infrastructure, and it needs to be current with what developers are paying out in the marketplace. Councilman Boyle: Okay. Councilman Ayotte: And if we do fall short and it does come out of the fund, then the taxpayer does get hit. Kate Aanenson: Exactly, and that... Councilman Boyle: And then it's going to be big time later on. Kate Aanenson: ... existing revenue, correct. 52 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Councilman Labatt: So how much, I hate to ask this question publicly but how much have we lost by not having this updated? Todd Gerhardt: I haven't done the math on that. Councilman Labatt: Okay, you don't have to but. Kate Aanenson: But you're right. This is, again this is things that are coming out of the Ehlers study. Similarly with the pavement management that we need to be more fiscally responsible to be paying our way, and this again, development pays it's way for this. As a developer coming in, those are those storm water funding and quality fees that you see in every project. Todd Gerhardt: And there's certain things that you relate back to land cost. This is one of them. Todd's park and trail dedication fund. He'll be in front of you either within a month or so asking on a rate increase on that also. Because you're seeing land in Chanhassen, there was a piece the other day that sold for $171,000 an acre. Councilman Boyle: And acre? Todd Gerhardt: An acre. And that's what we're up against. That's going to be the comp as people go out and do appraisals when we try to buy this property. Councilman Peterson: But my point was two fold. It's simply to bring the fact that we're increasing cost of doing business in Chanhassen in a fact that we, it would have been much more tolerable had we been doing it 3 percent a year, versus you know 10 so. Councilman Boyle: At some point in time we've got to do it. Councilman Peterson: Yeah you've got to, philosophically I'm just, I would have preferred to do a cost of living since, when we're supposed to have done it instead of waiting now and trying to play catch up. Mayor Jansen: Unfortunately this council's been playing catch up on a lot of these type of issues and here's one more for us so I commend staff for bringing this forward and bringing it to our attention so that we can update it and get a policy in place to address it, so appreciate that. With that if I. Todd Gerhardt: And we'll talk more about that as you get into those strategies, that we put a schedule together. And we've heard it time and time again. It's easier to accept a small incremental increase versus a large double digit one like this, so Craig makes a good point. Mayor Jansen: And at least you've spread it out over 3 years. You're not looking to recoup it all in one. Todd Gerhardt: And we'll put it on a schedule like Todd does with his park and trail dedication fees. Sometimes the land costs kind of stay stagnant and it's construction costs that go up so, we're not seeing that trend now. Land costs are dramatically high. Mayor Jansen: Okay. IfI could have a motion please. 53 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Councilman Labatt: Move approval. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Boyle: Second. Resolution #2002-90: Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to approve the resolution to update the Surface Water Management Water Quality and Water Quantity Connection Charges. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. H. PROPERTY MAINTENANCE & RENTAL LICENSING. Councilman Peterson: And I think we've, my primary reason for pulling this was for, I don't think it's at all a surprise for anybody. I'm not necessarily for it. For this basic reason that we are increasing the size of government for what I don't see as a compelling reason. We'll be essentially adding a new position to this, and it's been kind of tossed back and forth whether or not it will be fully funded with the fees. Whether it can be, but at the end of the day we're still adding a person to do this. At least a majority of their time is going to be spent doing this and I'm concerned about that. For what I don't see again as a real driving reason to do it. Mr. Liefschultz this evening brought something to my attention I really hadn't thought about it, about you're putting people immediately into a situation where they're, they could be harming their mortgage situation by being out of code. And Roger I heard you talk about well they're out of code til we tell them. Well, that's kind of a gray area. And whether or not we should give and notify everybody that they've got 6 months to come to code. I don't know whether that really does much good either. Whether we're wasting money notifying them through the newspaper or whatever, but I think that Mr. Liefschultz presented a relatively closing argument as to why we should do something different on that 754, point number A in the modifications area, that it would seem appropriate that we give them some time to have them call us in to do an inspection and then give them a period of time, you know 6 months to a year to come into code before the thing goes into full effect. That may be a reasonable. But just philosophically, if we do approve it, which I assume we will tonight, without my approval. But if we do it I think you maybe should consider adding something addressing that point. So there, I'm off my soapbox. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other comments council? Councilman Labatt: So this would, just reading the summary ordinance here. Passed and adopted and approved for publication on the 14th day of October. So this would Roger take in effect when? Kate Aanenson: We wrote in there January lst effective date. Councilman Labatt: So we have time for a public education. I mean everybody knows about it. It's been in the paper. If there's an owner of a property that is in doubt or question, they have until the end of the year to come up to City Hall and say can you help me. Kate Aanenson: Well it will take two process. One is rental licensing. Rental licensing does require inspection. The other is a complaint basis, just as how we handle it now. The problem with the complaint basis that we have right now is there's things that for example we have homes that have tarps over their roofs. 54 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: Have what? Kate Aanenson: Have tarps over their roof. That's not in violation of a building code but aesthetically it's not pleasing. So now we've sent them a letter, we don't inspect all properties unless there's a complaint basis that's separate, so you have to separate that from the rental. So as I indicated before, when we get letters all the time, is this building in compliance? We have to say we don't know because we don't inspect every property on an annual basis, so that's the point I was making with Roger. So there's two separate prongs to this. And rental licensing, certainly. Just as we do now code enforcement, the goal is to get in compliance. The last thing we want to do is mm it over to the attorney's office. We always, we send a letter. We follow up with another letter. We work, as long as there's good faith effort to moving. Now there's certain things that we have to decide, whether it's a life safety and at that point we'll make a call to the attorney's office to decide how severe it is. Or the building official makes and determines if it's a safety issue that we want to be, that we're aware that we need to enforce but again it's pretty much the same process we handle now as far as code... Councilman Labatt: So if a homeowner's in the process of re-roofing. Does a complete tear off of the wood and everything. Inclement weather happens. He puts a tarp up. And it rains for 2 days and he can't get it, is there a provision here to say you know you're not in violation because you're under a permit reconstruction? Kate Aanenson: Sure. You have 180 days. Councilman Labatt: He's safe? Kate Aanenson: Yeah. Yep. And we're not trying to do that. What we need is the people that just. Councilman Labatt: Throw a tarp up for the next year and a half. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, and the neighbors are complaining. Again, so you go out and visit them first and say is there something going on? Try to figure that out. Ascertain the facts. Just how we do it now, but as long as, and now because it's not a violation of the building code, there's no nuisance section. This tightens that section up. Where we have more control if they're seeing a violation of that. Councilman Ayotte: The other part of it too is, I mean if we have a situation where we do have a complex that has.., black mold, something along this line, the issue of compliance is going to be good for the owner of the building, along with the occupants, along with the neighbors. So this thing, in the right vein, is going to be a very positive thing for people around the dwelling and in the dwelling so I think we've got to. Mayor Jansen: And we've had comments from occupants of rental units where they've been without water for several days. Heat for several days. I mean we're not just coming in and trying to get on the occupants. It's to benefit all. I mean the complaints I think are not publicly heard most of the time. You deal with them in the planning department and we don't necessarily know about them until somebody has reached that extreme aggravation with the tar paper side of a house that they've had to look at for you know over a year. And there's nothing that staff can do. So I mean this isn't to come in and harass your typical homeowner. It's to help maintain properties that are falling well out of what you'd consider to be normal or average. We're not out there looking for problems. I think that's what Kate was saying. You know this is an answer to 55 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 complaints. These are neighbors that have just reached the point where they're at frustration and they come to the city to look for us to do something and right now we have to say we can't. There's nothing that we can do. And now with this in place we can be of help to residents that do have issues like that. So no, we're not going to be out policing and knocking on people's doors to look for problems. This is to address the ones that are brought to us. Todd Gerhardt: And Mayor and Council members. This also gives the landlords the opportunity or a tool to help manage their tenants. I think that was the key thing of why they got involved and are behind it. They need the threat that that tenant could be evicted, and this law or ordinance helps them in that manner. So that's why they're supporting it. It helps them manage their tenants. Mayor Jansen: Okay. With that I'll call for a motion. Councilman Labatt: I would move that we approve. Councilman Ayotte: Second. Mayor Jansen: The property maintenance and rental licensing. Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council approve the following regarding Property Maintenance and Rental Licensing: 1) 2) 3) 4) Amendment to City Code Chapter 7 Concerning Property Maintenance. Amendment to City Code Chapter 10 Concerning Licensing of Rental Properties. Resolution #2002-91: Approval of Resolution Establishing Rental Housing License Fees. Approval of Summary Ordinance for Publication Purposes. All voted in favor, except Councilman Peterson who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. Kate Aanenson: Clarification. There's actually four motions there. One was adopting a fee resolution. Roger Knutson: And the summary. Kate Aanenson: And the summary ordinance, and the two ordinances. Just to be clear that that's what that motion covered. Roger Knutson: I understood the motion to cover all four items. Councilman Labatt: That was the motion Roger. Chapter 7, 10, sections 1 and 2, 3 and 4. Mayor Jansen: You just took a shortcut. Councilman Labatt: Yep. Well Bob cut me off. I was going to do the whole thing but Bob cut me off. Councilman Ayotte: ... way too long guys. 56 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Mayor Jansen: He's rushing us along. Okay. So that covered everything I believe that we had moved off of the consent agenda. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS. Mayor Jansen: I will only briefly mention that the sheriff called together a contracting committee meeting that was pulled together very last minute, but he had a chief in for the, what the sheriff's conference. National conference here in town. Councilman Peterson: Police chiefs. Mayor Jansen: Yep, and had one of the chiefs come in and speak to us as a group about contracting in her community, and we have those documents. Justin attended. Steve and I both attended. The contracting meeting is typically with the Mayor and city administration. I did think to go ahead and get Steve involved because of the nature of the contracting and he had also served on the contract review task force back when we did that, so it was a good follow-up for him on that. So we do have that information. We can copy those documents into the Admin Section, but I commend the Sheriff for having pulled that meeting together to give us yet another perspective on contract policing. I didn't have any other reports under council/commission reports. Mr. Gerhardt, anything under Admin Presentations? ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS. Todd Gerhardt: The only thing I have is on our next agenda we will have an extension on the purchase agreement on the land for West 79th Street. They're finalizing all the documentation. Purchase agreement called for an October 30th closing, and we're not going to meet that. We need another 30 days to get all our T's crossed and our I's dotted, but it looks as if we will have a closing. You approved the site plan tonight and so just wanted to give you the heads up on that. No big issues there. Just an administrative extension. Library project had some good progress on that last week. Got all the footings done. We have a section of the west wall to pour for the parking ramp, but we're moving along nicely there. Councilman Boyle: Did you sell the bowling alley? Todd Gerhardt: We are working on a couple of proposals right now. Would hope to have something back to you probably within the next 30 days to consider a purchase agreement. We want it to be something that both the Planning Commission, or planning staff could support and meet all our ordinances. CORRESPONDENCE DISCUSSION. Mayor Jansen: Great. Under the correspondence, I don't know if council took notice of the Met Council redistricting memo, and if that is something that we want to be commenting on. There are a couple different plans in there as to how Chanhassen would actually be split out. In two of the options we end up in a District 5, which is Chanhassen, Eden Prairie, and Bloomington. The option number 2 would segment us off with a much larger group of communities in the western suburbs which include, as it states, most Lake Minnetonka communities, Eden Prairie, Chanhassen, Victoria, Chaska, Chaska Township, Laketown Township, Watertown Township, Watertown, Independence, Maple Plain, Medina, and Loretto. So they're two very different configurations for us, and I don't know if we want to take time to take a look at this and make comment. Their comment period, we'd have to get it in like real quick. 57 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Councilman Peterson: Otherwise they decide. Mayor Jansen: Make final recommendation at it's meeting on October 23rd. Councilman Peterson: When I read it, I really didn't understand what impact one or the other, if them making the decision, and if we make a recommendation, does it really a difference? Have they already got their mind made up? If we did make a decision, it seemed reasonable that we have more in common with the latter group than we do with Eden Prairie and Bloomington. So I think from my perspective, if we do make a recommendation, it seems more realistic that we do the latter. Councilman Boyle: I agree. I didn't understand it either totally. I mean I just echo Craig's comments. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Does staff have an opinion on whether? Kate Aanenson: I did speak to Jules Smith, who is our sector rep and I did kind of voice the same concern that Craig brought up and that is in the fact that if you compare us to Bloomington or Eden Prairie, they're built out communities. We have little bit different issues. We're on the fringe and we still have a lot of MUSA so I would agree that I think we would want to be with like kind. And I did express some of those concerns to Jules. Councilman Ayotte: But would there be an advantage in terms of us hitting thresholds earlier with the people that were built out already? Kate Aanenson: No, they just had different issues. Bloomington has different issues than Chanhassen does. We're trying to expand MUSA and they're trying to intensify their redevelopment stuff so. Councilman Boyle: Should we submit this in writing? Kate Aanenson: Sure, I think Todd and I could put together a letter and forward that. Put it for the Mayor's signature. Councilman Ayotte: And what was your sense? Do you think they're going to honor our request and. Mayor Jansen: I think it's better to at least voice it. Councilman Peterson: So that means should we do a resolution? Mayor Jansen: I think we should. Do it in resolution form. Todd Gerhardt: We were just discussing if we, under options 3 and 1, we may lose Jules as our representative because he does not live in the city of Chanhassen. Kate Aanenson: He also indicated he may not be reappointed either so, you serve at the leisure of the Governor so that was my other question to him too. Todd Gerhardt: I think he, it was Eden Prairie. Well what's our district right now? 58 City Council Meeting - October 14, 2002 Roger Knutson: I know it goes over into Lakeville. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah. Kate Aanenson: Scott County, includes part of Scott County. Eden Prairie. Chaska. So it's kind of similar to more the other, because again their issues are more growth management. Todd Gerhardt: I think the key thing there is somehow if we can keep Jules as our representative. He's got the knowledge and experience over there and he's always looked out for our best interest. Kate Aanenson: Again, he indicated that he may not be reappointed, depending on who the governor is. Mayor Jansen: Yeah. So if we could put together a resolution on Option 2, and get that forwarded as soon as possible. Do we need to make a motion for that then this evening? Roger Knutson: That'd be appropriate. Mayor Jansen: Okay. IfI could have a motion please. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve that this council approve version, Option 2 as via the proposed memo. Councilman Boyle: As a resolution? Mayor Jansen: As a resolution. And a second please. Councilman Boyle: Second. Resolution/12002-92: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council approve a resolution supporting Option/t2 for the Metropolitan Council's Redistricting Plan. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: Great. If we can get that forwarded right away. Todd Gerhardt: Yep. Get it out tomorrow. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Anything else council? Motion to adjourn? Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The City Council meeting was adjourned at 9:50 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 59