1f Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
WORK SESSION
SEPTEMBER 9, 2002
Mayor Jansen called the work session meeting to order at 5:40 p;m.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Boyle, Councilman Ayotte,
and Councilman Peterson
COUNCIL MEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Labatt
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt~ Justin Miller, Todd Hoffman, Bruce DeJong, Loft Haak,
Kate Aanenson, and Beth Ho,seth
A.
REVIEW PRELIMINARY TAX LEVY.
Bruce DeJong reviewed his memo dated September 5, 2002 with the City Council which further
clarified staff' s recommendation for the preliminary tax levy. Discussion focused around funding
sources. Mayor Jansen explained to council that their concern should be with the total number,
and not get into specifics at this point. She expressed concern over the percentage of increase in
the levy amount as compared with the percentage of increase with growth. Councilman Ayotte
questioned the loss in revenue, $300,000 versus $500,000. Mayor Jansen asked about using the
reserve fund to reduce the debt but wanted to see the city's bond rating improve, not go down.
Councilman Peterson wanted to send a signal to the community that the City Council is working
to reduce the percentage of increase in the levy. Councilman Ayotte agreed with lowering the
levy to about 10 percent. Councilman Boyle liked the idea of sending a message to the
community, but not wanting to reduce services. Mayor Jansen asked that staff look at taking
$200,000 out of the fund reserve to reduce the debt levy and keeping the general fund the same.
Staff stated they would prepare a resolution for the council to approve at their meeting.
C. PROPERTY MAINTENANCE CODE.
Kate Aanenson provided an update on what staff has done since the last time they met with
council. If the council wishes to proceed, they need to prepare an ordinance to be adopted by the
City Council. Councilman Peterson questioned philosophically whether the council wanted to do
that, especially with the implications of adding an additional staff person to administer the
program. Councilman Boyle agreed with Councilman Peterson. Mayor Jansen reminded the
council that the public requested that the City Council pursue this issue so if the council is going
to change their position on it, they should get input from the public. Todd Gerhardt stated that
code enforcement is becoming an area of growing concern in the city and taking up more and
more staff time for enforcement. Mr. Leifschultz was present speaking for the committee and
stated that the committee was in favor of the last draft they saw regarding conduct on premises
ordinance, but that he had lost track of the property maintenance issue and had concerns with the
last draft the committee had seen on that issue.
Mayor Jansen recessed the work session meeting for the regular City Council meeting. The
City Council reconvened at 8:15 p.m. to continue with the work session items not covered
prior to the meeting.
City Council Work Session - September 9, 2002
B. PRESENTATION ON NATIONAL POLLUTANT DISCHARGE ELIMINATION
SYSTEM (NPDES) PHASE II STORMWATER GUIDE PLAN.
Lori Haak gave a power point presentation on this issue to the City Council. Kate Aanenson
provided council with an update on the Kelly issue, stating that staff has directed them to apply
for a Wetland Alteration Permit. City Hall experienced a power outage during the presentation
and the work session was adjourned at 8:35 p.m.
Submitted by Todd Gerhardt
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
SEPTEMBER 9, 2002
Mayor Jansen called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. The meeting was opened with the
Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT_: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Boyle, Councilman Ayotte
and Councilman Peterson
COUNCIL MEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Labatt
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Andrea Poehler, Teresa Burgess, Justin Miller, Kate
Aanenson, Sharmeen A1-Jaff, Todd Hoffman, Mahmoud Sweidan, and Bruce DeJong
PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS:.
Janet Paulsen
Pam Latanisian
Brian Lundquist
7302 Laredo Drive
2051 Timberwood Drive
7281 Conestoga Court
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
R~esolution g2002-8L: Mayor Jansen moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to approve a
resolution declaring September 11, 2002 as Patriot Day. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0.
·
Mayor Jansen: Under Public Announcements, we have a significant day of observance that's of
course coming up on Wednesday, and I know there' s a lot of conversation going on around the 9-
11 events and I have received an announcement, actually a proclamation by the President of the
United States that I thought was worthy of our recognizing and maybe reading this evening. It is
actually declaring September 11a as Patriot Day, and these are the words from this proclamation.
On this first observance of Patriot Day we remember and honor those who perished in the
terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. We will not forget the events of that terrible morning,
nor will we forget how Americans responded in New York City, at the Pentagon, and in the skies
over Pennsylvania. With heroism and selflessness, with compassion and courage and with prayer
and hope. We will always remember our collective obligation to ensure that justice is done, that
freedom prevails and that the principals upon which our nation was founded endure. Inspired by
the heroic sacrifices of our firefighters, rescue and law enforcement personnel, military service
members and other citizens, our nation found unity, focus and strength. We found healing in the
national outpouring of compassion for those lost, as tens of millions Americans participated in
moments of silence, candlelight vigils, and religious services. From the tragedy of September
11th emerged a stronger nation renewed by a spirit of national pride and a true love of our
country. We are a people dedicated to the triumph of freedom and democracy over evil and
tyranny. The heroic stories of the first responders who gave their all to save others strengthen our
resolve. And our armed forces have pursued the war against terrorism in Afghanistan and
elsewhere with valor and skill. Together with our coalition partners they have achieved success.
Americans also have fought back against terror by choosing to overcome evil with good by
loving their neighbors as they would like to be loved. Countless citizens have answered the call
to help others. They have contributed to relief efforts, improved homeland security in their
communities and volunteered their time to aid those in need. This spirit of service continues to
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
grow as thousands have joined the newly established USA Freedom Corps committing
themselves to changing America one heart at a time through the momentum of millions of acts of
decency and kindness. Those whom we lost September 11th will forever hold a cherished place in
our hearts and in the history of our nation. As we mark the first anniversary of that tragic day, we
remember their sacrifice and we commit ourselves to honoring their memory by pursuing peace
and justice in the world and security at home. By a joint resolution approved December 18, 2001
the Congress has authorized and requested the President to designate September 11th of each year
as Patriot Day. And then it goes on to read, Now Therefore, I, George Bush, President of the
United States of America, do hereby proclaim September 11, 2002 as Patriot Day. I call upon the
people of the United States to observe this day with appropriate ceremonies and activities,
including remembrance services and candlelight vigils. I also call upon the governors of the
United States and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico as well as appropriate officials of all units
of government to direct that the flag be flown at half staff on Patriot Day. Further, I encourage all
Americans to display the flag at half staff from their homes on that day and to observe a moment
of silence beginning at 8:46 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time. Or another appropriate commemorative
time to honor the innocent victims who lost their lives as a result of the terrorist attacks of
September 11,2001. I thought that was a very significant proclamation and wanted to share that
with the community and then also note that our fire department on Wednesday morning will be
holding one of these commemorative ceremonies. The fire department will open at 8:00 a.m. and
then the program will begin at 8:50 with special ceremonies being held at 9:05 and 9:28 which is
approximately when the towers fell. So certainly everyone in the community is invited to those
and invitations have gone out to the different groups in the community to have everyone be aware
of that occurring and we certainly appreciate their dedicating their time and pulling that ceremony
together for the community. So with that I'll move onto the other public announcement that we
have on the agenda is an update on the open house for the water treatment facility. Teresa, would
you like to give a staff report?
UPDATE ON OPEN HOUSE FOR WATER TREAT_MENT FACILITY.
Teresa Burgess: Certainly. Thank you Madam Mayor. I'd just like to invite the citizens of
Chanhassen and also the City Council to attend an open house being held on Wednesday,
September 18th from 5:30 to 7:00 p.m. at the Chanhassen Rec Center. We will be discussing
water treatment and distribution within the city of Chanhassen. We have hired Black and Beach
to do a study of our system and they' ve now quantified and started to get a handle about our
existing system, and we' re looking at where we should go from here and what exactly is
appropriate for the city of Chanhassen. With that in mind we certainly want to have as many of
the public come in and give us their comments and input at this point in time. We will be having
a second meeting in October and at that time we' 11 be bringing back some input, the results of
what this input came to be in the study and as we' re putting that study into final concept to come
to the council for discussion.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you. As a part of that, you noted that the hours are from 5:30 to
7:00. Is there any designated time where you'll be doing a formal presentation of the plan?
Teresa Burgess: We do not have the plan together yet. That's what we're seeking input into. We
do have an ongoing presentation that will continuously loop during the timeframe. The intention
is to catch people on their way home from work or maybe right after dinner, if they want to swing
by before they go to their workout or their other evening activities. That's part of the reason
we've also chosen the Chanhassen Rec Center. It's right on Highway 5. It's convenient for
people to swing in and stop and see us and then go on with their evening activities. And there
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
will be city staff members as well as members of the consultant firm, and also the project
advisory committee will be there to answer questions and take your input.
Mayor Jansen: Great, thank you. Council, any comments? Questions for staff. Okay, thank
you.
CONSENT AGENDAA Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to
hpprove the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendations:
a. Approval of Joint Powers Agreement for County Auditor Counting Center, 2002
Elections.
c. Approval of Bills.
d.
Approval of Minutes:
- City Council Work Session Minutes dated August 26, 2002
- City Council Minutes dated August 26, 2002
g,
Receive Commission Minutes:
- Planning Commission Minutes dated August 20, 2002
- Park and Recreation Commission Minutes dated July 23, 2002
Approval of Contract for Vandalism Repair, Lake Lucy Ground Storage Tank.
Resolution ig2002-82~.'. Approval of Application Submission for Designating the
~;outhwest LRT Route as a Snowmobile Trail for the 2002/03 Season.
Consent to Assignment of Developer Rights and Amendment of Development Contract
for Hidden Creek, Project No. 02-09.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0.
B. APPROVAL OF RE UEST FOR A VARIANCE TIME EXTENSION 7000
UTICA LANE~ HEIDI CARISH_.
Mayor Jansen: The reason I asked to pull l(b) is it is an extension for a variance, a time
extension on a variance that I' m not familiar with and I would just assume abstain from this
particular vote so I will do that and call for a motion.
Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to approve the request for a
variance time extension for 7000 Utica Lane. All voted in favor, except Mayor Jansen who
abstained, and the motion carried.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS~. None.
_
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
PUBLIC HEARING: EXTENSION OF UTILITIES, ASHLING MEADOWS 2N~)
ADDITION, PROJECT No. 02-07..
Teresa Burgess: Thank you Madam Mayor. The City has received a petition from the developer
of Lake Lucy Ridge to extend utilities to that development through the Ashling Meadows 2nd.
Ashling Meadows 2nd is being developed by Lundgren Brothers and Lake Lucy Ridge is being
developed by Noecker. The property owner at Ashling Meadows 2nd Lundgren development has
not expressed any objection to the project so far, however they would be assessed for the project
and therefore have been invited to tonight's meeting, and would also be invited to the assessment
hearing. City staff is at this time recommending approval, however we would like to reserve our
judgment until after we have heard the public hearing. As well city staff has also received today
the estimate for engineering services to update the plan to be able to go forward with this project,
and that is an amount of $10,600. And if the council does decide to go forward with this project I
would like to request that you also authorize that set of plans be prepared and the consultant
agreement contingent upon the city receiving an agreement to be drafted with the assistance of
the city attorney's office, that if the project is not awarded that we would be refunded the dollars
expended for design from Noecker Development, the owners and developers of Lake Lucy Ridge.
And I have not had a chance to talk about that with the developer yet so that is a surprise for him
I'm sure. With that, it's a public hearing this evening and I will answer any questions.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. If you would prepare for us what you need that motion to read,
I would appreciate it.
Teresa Burgess: Certainly.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Any questions for staff at this point? Then I will go ahead and open
this for the public hearing. If there's anyone present that would like to address this agenda item,
please step forward to the podium at this time. Okay. Seeing no one, I will close the public
hearing and bring this back to council. Council, any comments? Questions? Then Teresa, when
you have that ready for us we can move on with our motion.
Teresa Burgess: Do you want me to just read that Madam Mayor?
Mayor Jansen: You can certainly do that. So our motion will be.
Teresa Burgess: Move to approve the feasibility study and authorize preparation of plans and
specifications for extension of sanitary sewer and watermain utilities through the Ashling
Meadows 2nd Addition development, and to authorize consultant contract in the amount of
$10,600 with Sathre-Berquist. Approval of contract to be contingent upon an agreement signed
by the developer of Lake Lucy Ridge for reimbursement of design services if the project is not
awarded.
Mayor Jansen: Okay.
Councilman Boyle: So moved.
Councihnan Ayotte: Second.
Resolution #2002-83: Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to approve
the feasibility study and authorize preparation of plans and specifications for extension of
sanitary sewer and watermain utilities through the Ashling Meadows 2nd Addition
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
development, and to authorize consultant contract in the amount of $10,600 with Sathre-
Berquist. Approval of contract to be contingent upon an agreement signed by the developer
of Lake Lucy Ridge for reimbursement of design services if the project is not awarded. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0.
Todd Hoffman: Thank you Madam Mayor, members of the City Council. Trail improvements
for the extension of the city' s trail system generally follow one of two ways. Either road
improvements and/or platting process. In this case this is a platting of Mission Hills 2na that
brings this piece to our attention. So Mission Hills 2na was platted in this area and it brought with
it the terminus of this trail connection which will go between Mission Hills 2~a and then right up
to the trail that travels between Lake Susan and Rice Marsh Lake, and it connects there just below
the St. Hubert's Church. So we're building the first segment of this dashed line as a part of the
city's comprehensive trail plan. In the future th~ connection will continue to the east on the south
side of Rice Marsh Lake Park connection to Eden Prairie and at some point in the future
connecting all the way back and creating a circle around Rice Marsh Lake. The project's been
going on for some time as far as coordination. It required DNR permitting, watershed permitting
and then design work which was considerable. We're building this trail on top of a sewer
interceptor line. Bids were open last Friday and we had an interesting bid opening. We had 15
plan holders for this project. Two bidders arrived at our door step that morning, and we opened
bids on an estimated $92,000 project. When I opened the first envelope it was $326,000, and so I
first checked commas and finding that none were in error. The second bidder who turned out to
be the low bidder looked at me and said huh, that' s a good bid. That' s low, and so we were a
little bit concerned at that moment, but when we opened Sunram Construction's bid who came in
much closer to our estimate at $99,655, which we feel is a good bid. It is approximately 8 percent
over our estimate, but given the bidding climate that we have two bidders here based off of 15
who submitted, our thought process is that it's a difficult construction area. It's in a low lying
wet area and it' s just not that attractive as what you would call real cream of the cro~xype of
work so Sunram willing to do this at $99,655. It's staff' s recommendation that we go ahead and
award this project and get it underway and hopefully completed yet this fall.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, great. Any questions for staff?.
Councilman Ayotte: It' s surprising that the material cost, the bituminous line item was the adder
for the, between your cost estimate and that of the vendor that you're wanting to select. Does that
surprise you? I mean usually that's pretty cut and dry on cost.
Todd Hoffman: Bituminous cost?
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah.
Todd Hoffman: Again it' s an estimate. That' s where the difference is you're correct, between
Sunram and our architects but they gain some money back. Our bridge estimate was 4 ¥2
thousand dollars higher than their bridge estimate of $12,000. I'm assuming when they're
estimating the bridge, you' ve got a quote in hand for $12,000 so there was some trade off in cost
there.
Councilman Ayotte: But nonetheless, a linear cost estimate for material, I mean it's pretty cut
and dry. A bridge construction has some variation because of design.
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
Todd Hoffman: Well we specified the design so they had to purchase what we specified.
Mayor Jansen: Well if you look at the concrete, that varies also again to staff' s point, it was an
estimate that was provided.
Councilman Ayotte: I understand that but not...the bituminous was...
Mayor Jansen: Sure. Okay with that, any other comments or questions for staff? If I could have
a motion please.
Councilman Boyle: I'd make a motion that we award the bid for Marsh Glen trail and pedestrian
bridge to Sunram Construction Incorporated.
Mayor Jansen: And a second?
Councilman Peterson: Second.
Resolution g2002-84: Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to award
the bid for the Marsh Glen Trail and Pedestrian Bridge to Sunram Construction, Inc. in the
amount of $99,655.00. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of
4to0.
REQUEST FOR VARIANCES FROM THE LAKESHORE WETLAND SETBACK FOR
AN ADDITION, 8591 TIGUA, GORDON SCHAEFFER.
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: Madam Mayor, members of the City Council. The site is located east of
Tigua Lane and southwest of Rice Marsh Lake. It is zoned residential single family and has an
area of 4.18 acres. Before I present the case for you I just want to explain how a setback is
measured on lots that abut a lake. When a setback is measured between a structure and a lake it is
measured at the ordinary high water mark. This is a fixed elevation established by the DNR. A
shoreline on the other hand changes based upon the amount of rain that we get in a given year or
lack thereof. A single family residence was built in 1982 at a distance of 186 feet from the
shoreline of Rice Marsh Lake, so this setback is from the shoreline and not from the OHW of the
lake. Approximately 4 months ago the applicant met with staff and requested an addition to his
existing home. We explained that the ordinary high water needed to be shown on the survey. At
that point we realized that the home was actually built 139 feet from the OHW. That is an
existing non-conforming situation. The ordinances requires a setback of 150 feet. The applicant
applied for a variance to encroach an additional 14 feet into the required setback, giving a 125
foot setback. His main reasons for the request are first, the current orientation of the house will
face future Highway 212/312 and the applicant wishes to reorient the house to face the lake.
Second, the direction facing the lake has 3 windows and the applicant wishes to increase the
window space. Third, the current north facing elevation will need to be re-done for structural
reasons and the applicant wishes to take the opportunity to create a space that better meets his
needs. The applicant has indicated that a number of the homes within the subdivision are located
closer than 150 feet from the OHW of the lake and the homes have been oriented towards the
lake, meaning windows facing the lake. We sympathize with the applicant. However, approving
this request will result in an intensification of a non-conforming use. The applicant has
reasonable use of the property. Staff is recommending denial of this application. You have
before you findings of fact should you decide to deny this application. Should you decide to
approve it, we have prepared conditions of approval. The Planning Commission recommended
approval of this application for 3 reasons. The fu~st is the close proximity to 212. The second is
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
this is a unique situation and there are pre-existing standards within this neighborhood where
we're not creating a precedence. And with that I'll be happy to answer any questions.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, appreciate that. Only one question on your last comment. The pre-existing
standard. From reading the minutes of the Planning Commission meeting from what I've
garnered is that all the homes that have been built in the near past, all 'of those in fact meet the
actual 150 foot setback.
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: That's correct.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. So the pre-existing was obviously in place when they were, for whatever
reason using the shoreline instead of the ordinary high water mark.
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: That's correct.
Mayor Jansen: Now the ordinary high water mark isn't our standard from what I was reading.
It's the DNR's standard, correct?
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: Correct, and we have adopted those standards.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. And as their's reads, it's a minimum.
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: That's correct.
Mayor Jansen: They would prefer if anything to see it maybe be a little bit more but we' ve stuck
with their 150. Okay. Alright. And then the other point that they had made about the Highway
212 as an issue. You said the house was built in 1982.
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: That's correct.
Mayor Jansen: And Highway 212 was on the books dating back 50 years? What 1950 or
something was the original planning so okay. So that information, when you went back to the
original construction, did you see the 212 information in there? I mean is that, I'm assuming that
at the time that they constructed that they had that information.
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: It wasn't discussed in the subdivision.
Mayor Jansen: It was discussed in the subdivision?
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: Was not.
Mayor Jansen: It was not.
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: Discussed in the subdivision.
Todd Gerhardt: It wasn't officially mapped the corridor at that time. There were discussions on a
couple of alternatives for the 212 corridor, but was not officially mapped in '82.
Councilman Boyle: Well it's very possible the current owner was not the builder too.
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
Mayor Jansen: That is correct. But the house orientation was placed, and what I thought was
knowing where the Highway 212 corridor was going to be, but what you're saying, because there
was a north and there was a south, and the southern obviously would not have affected this
development at all because it would have gone completely south of, and down to Pioneer Trail.
This cuts it inbetween this development and Lake Riley.
Todd Gerhardt: Yeah I think the key thing here is expanding on a non-conforming use right now.
Staff made the mistake in '82 of using the edge of the water as the setback and if the other homes
are conforming to the 150 foot setback, I think that's the key thing here. And expanding on a use
I think does establish a bad precedent that we don't want to get into. It' s something if the council
is leaning towards approving this, I think we should take a look at that setback mark. I just think
this is establishing a bad precedent.
Mayor Jansen: And a current standard whereas our current, for all of the newer construction in
this area, has been that 150 foot.
Todd Gerhardt: Correct.
Mayor Jansen: This would be ta'king a dramatic step backwards. Okay.
Todd Gerhardt: Which is the DNR's minimum Mayor.
Mayor Jansen: Exactly. Okay. Thank you. Any additional questions for staff?.
Councilman Boyle: Could you put that, I do have a question. Picture up again.
Mayor Jansen: The map?
Councilman Boyle: Yeah. Go ahead.
Councilman Ayotte: The orientation, so where he wants to put the addition on, the lake's to the
north and the balance of the house is to the, 212 would be to the south correct?
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: That's correct.
Councilman Ayotte: The portion of the front of the house, well the southern portion. It's not
necessarily the front, has an overhang. And so the idea of having within the envelope of that
house, would that be doable for the homeowner if he wanted to take a different orientation to add
on underneath that overhang? Because it looked in the picture to be significant. Still keeping the
envelope of the home.
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: From a setback standpoint, it would meet city ordinance requirements. And
you would be expanding in an area that is conforming if you will.
Councihnan Ayotte: Okay, thanks.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, Gary did you have a question?
Councilman Boyle: Yeah. I'm really confused on this ordinary high water mark. Does DNR
come out and say okay boom, here's a stake and that's the ordinary high water mark? And that's,
they do this on every lake is that correct?
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: Yes. Every lake has an established ordinary high water mark.
Councilman Boyle: So when you go out to measure you say okay I can go from the house to this
stake or what is it? What's there, there's something in the ground? -
Kate Aanenson: It's a survey. There's not a stake. It has to be surveyed.
Councilman Boyle: Okay.
Mayor Jansen: And it's on the plat for the lots, correct?
Councilman Boyle: Okay. Have we approved any other setbacks in the last year that you're
aware of?
Kate Aanenson: Variances?
Councihnan Boyle: Variances.
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: Lake setback.
Councilman Boyle: Did we do something on Lotus?
Kate Aanenson: I don't have that information here.
Councilman Boyle: Yeah, I mean from memory you don't recall anything.
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: Over the last year?
Councilman Boyle: Yes. What I'm getting at is this precedent thing so. Okay. That's all the
questions I have.
Mayor Jansen: Usually our lakeshore setbacks are pretty strenuously maintained so I do think it
would stand out in staff' s recollection though difficult to come up with on the spot. Okay. Any
other questions for staff?
Councilman Ayotte: I happen to have one other. Natural environment lake versus a recreational
lake. I just want to make sure that I understand. That the impact, irrespective of the setback, the
setback is greater on a natural environmental lake versus a recreational lake. But the
environmental impact is, that's why the environmental impact is greater on a natural
environment.
Sharmeen AI-Jaff: That's correct.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Is the applicant here this evening? If you would like to bring up any new
information from what the Planning Commission reviewed. We of course have all of the minutes
and the information that was reviewed at the Planning Commission but otherwise if you'd like to
add anything new, you're welcome to step forward to the podium at this time. And if you'll just
state your name and address for the record, I'd appreciate it.
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
Gordon Schaeffer: My name's Gordon Schaeffer and I'm the owner of 8591 Tigua Lane.
Mayor Jansen: Good evening.
Gordon Schaeffer: Good evening. I think the issues that I really want to present are first of all
precedent issues. That only one house has been built in that neighborhood in the past 15 years
that is 150 feet or further. And that all of the other houses potentially encroach because I think
what they thought was the high water mark at 189 was the OHW or maybe there wasn't an OHW
then. But I'm kind of in a difficult situation because I can't build to the east. I don't want to
build to the south, and I can't build to the west. And I'm not asking for 25 feet. I'm asking for
about 9 feet off my deck and I' ve put a lot of time and effort and try to make a plan work
structurally and aesthetically too.. So did everybody get a chance to look at the report? See the
pictures and.
Mayor Jansen: Yep.
Gordon Schaeffer: The other problem is I can't really put windows in a log structure because it's
a log house and I literally have 3 windows facing a beautiful lake and I think that is an additional
hardship. All the other neighbors houses are really geared towards the lake. And this may not
matter to you guys but this is also a big deal for my profession is I do film and television score
and this entire room would be sound...I work in Minneapolis and California and Santa Fe, and it
may also not matter but if this doesn't work out I'll probably sell the property and leave and it's
too bad. I really like Chanhassen.
Mayor Jansen: Okay.
Gordon Schaeffer: So precedent would be one thing. Almost all the houses face the lake and
many of them encroach. Some are 125 feet from the water, and I don't think it's fair that these
houses can be that close to the water, they're probably 110 feet from the OHW and I would not be
permitted in the same neighborhood the same rights. That feels unfair. And I guess the 212/312
is a big issue because I didn't realize it was going to be in my back yard. I don't know if you
know how close 150 feet is but it's really close and all my windows face right there.
Mayor Jansen: And Mr. Schaeffer, when did you purchase the property?
Gordon Schaeffer: 5 years ago.
Mayor Jansen: Okay.
Gordon Schaeffer: But my mother purchased it in '89. And I bought it from her.
Mayor Jansen: Okay.
Gordon Schaeffer: So those would be the issues that I'd like to bring up and just say that I'd
really like to make this work even if it meant re-doing the design slightly or doing something but
I really thought it through and this is the best I could come up with. I hired what I thought was
the best architect that does a lot of homes respectful of the environment and nature and I'd like to
see if we could make it work. Any questions?
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any questions for Mr. Schaeffer? Okay, thank you.
10
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
Gordon Schaeffer: Thanks.
Mayor Jansen: And I can certainly appreciate the concerns about where the other homes are
positioned in this particular development. However, all the homes, at least initially went in under
the same guidelines and I would like to think that what we're establishing is the guidelines that
will be applied to again those existing homes. That if in fact they do come in looking for
variances, that the message is clear that they're already within that high water mark due to the
way that it was platted originally and using the edge of the water instead of the ordinary high
water mark and other alternatives may need to be explored. So I don't know that that necessarily,
on a fairness scale I can understand where Mr. Schaeffer's coming from but from a timing
standpoint, you know the structure's are in place and we're trying to apply the ordinance as it's
meant to be applied by the DNR. We do have other developments that have occurred along this
same shoreline outside of this neighborhood: This one' s relatively small. What are there, 6
homes? 3, 6, 7 or 8 lots that actually face the water, but the Marsh Glen development to the west
of that, we did a rather extensive preserve easement over these wetland shores, correct? If I recall
that's now held by the city. It was deeded to the city and that's where we're doing the trail for
more of that natural setting going through that segment so that is the abutting property to this, and
then of course it faces the properties on the other side of Rice Marsh Lake that would have gone
in with that 150 foot setback from the lakeshore. Just so council understands in the scheme that
this is, though there are just a few homes in this one development, this does encompass several
additional developments that go around Rice Marsh Lake in Chan.
Councihnan Boyle: But are those newer developments? I mean are they conforming right now?
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: Yes.
Councilman Boyle: Thank you.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, any other questions or?
Councihnan Boyle: I have one more question. This 9 foot versus 25 foot. Explain please.
Mayor Jansen: Question to staff. We're back to staff, thank you.
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: The applicant is adding on 14 feet.
Councilman Boyle: From the deck? If it's 9 foot from his deck, then from the house it's 167
Sharmeen A1-Jaff: From the house he's adding an additional 14 feet. The current house sits 139
feet from the OHW. 139 negative 14 is 125 so the variance is for 25 feet.
Councilman Boyle: Gotch ya.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, answer your question?
Councilman Boyle: Answers my question.
Mayor Jansen: Alright. Councilman Ayotte, you had a question?
11
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
Councilman Ayotte: Just in terms of the hardship issue of hardship. Talked about the 212/312
and based on the definition, as I understand it, that is not a hardship. But dealing with an effect
on a person's livelihood, the point that he brought up, would that be considered in any definition
hardship?
Andrea Poehler: No, it wouldn't be considered a hardship. You really have to look at the
property and the land use as opposed to what use they happen to be making of it.
Councilman Ayotte: I didn't think so but I wanted to ask that question. Thanks.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Comments. Council. Councilman Peterson?
Councilman Peterson: You know I think that variances never get easier, and it would be
comfortable for everybody to allow variances at will, but unfortunately you want to do. We want
to set precedent. We want to do the right thing for the whole community, not just one of the
citizens but everybody at large so. Because of that, and I don't see anything compelling here that
really says that we should grant a variance, and I'm particularly sensitive to lakeshore setbacks
because everybody wants to be as close to the lake and wants to have a view of any of the lakes in
the community as they can so I wouldn't be in favor of approving the variance as it stands now.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you.
Councilman Ayotte: Succinctly put, I can't support it either. I want to but I can't. So I'm not in
favor of the variance.
Councilman Boyle: Well I agree. I would really like to support this for the homeowner, very
much so. The precedent situation bothers me. I think that the, there's a hardship but not under
the definition of hardship. And I can really appreciate the fact that the individual wants to
remodel his home to make it more lakeshore and more enjoyment to enjoy the lake instead of the
little 3 windows, etc. Under the precedent portion, every circumstance should be evaluated in it's
entirety and not, I don't like the word setting precedent all the time because it gets, it can be an
excuse. Nevertheless, in light of what's going on and the information provided, I would side with
staff' s recommendation.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Lakeshore setbacks I think are definitely more strenuously
enforced, if only because of the fact that we are so sensitive in this community to the quality of
our natural resources and this being a natural environment lake, having a particular need then for
the water quality protection leads me to very much have a problem with granting this type of a
variance. I can sympathize with the owner of the home. I understand and realize that the design
of the home certainly is not fitting the needs that you would like to have met out of this structure,
but unfortunately adding to that segment of the home and intensifying the non-conformity and
that is one of those guidelines that we do try to follow. That if we have a non-conforming use,
and someone comes in and wants to do an update, we certainly want to encourage that. But
typically what we're looking for is that it's at least not expanding upon that non-conformity
which is what our city manager was emphasizing to us at the beginning of this discussion. So
because this is an intensification of that non-conformity, I do have a difficulty supporting a
proposal like this, though I can appreciate wanting to make improvements to one of our older
properties. And would hope that maybe some other alternatives might be able to be explored in
order to make the site doable. With that, if I could have a motion please.
12
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
Councilman Peterson: Madam Mayor, I'd make a motion that the council denies the request for a
25 foot variance allowing a structure to encroach into lakeshore setback for the expansion of a
home based upon the negative findings of fact as presented this evening.
Mayor Jansen: And a second please.
Councilman Ayotte: I'll second.
Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council denies the
25 foot variance allowing a structure to encroach into a lakeshore setback for the expansion
of a home based on the negative variance findings (a) in the staff report. All voted in favor
and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0.
APPROVAL AND CERTIFICATION OF MAXIMUM PROPOSED LEVY TO COUNTY
AUDITOR.
Bruce DeJong: I will pass out a resolution prepared as you request at the work session. But
before we get into the discussion directly of this resolution, I'd like to take just a minute to kind
of discuss why we're here. Tonight this is really the first formal step in setting your budget and
tax levy for the year 2003. The process is generally that we start having budget meetings with
department directors during June and July of this year. We begin some preliminary discussions
of those numbers with the City Council in August, and then state law requires us to adopt a
maximum tax levy for Truth in Taxation purposes by September 15th of each year. This year your
regular meeting's falling on the 9th, so that's when we're adopting it but we still have to have this
down to the County Auditor by the end of the week. The information from the city is combined
with information from the school district and from the county and from other taxing jurisdictions
to prepare a Truth in Taxation notice that is mailed out to all property owners in November, and
then in December we have Truth and Taxation hearings where the public is invited to come in
and speak regarding our budget and our tax levy for the following year. And then you are
required to hold an adoption of your budget and levy at a different meeting at least a week later.
So what we're doing now is the first step. Then on December 2nd we will hold that Truth in
Taxation hearing after property owners have been notified about what thek potential tax increase
is based on their own individual circumstances. Whether thek property has increased in value,
remained the same or decreased. And then we'll adopt the budget on December 9th along with a
final tax levy. What you're setting tonight is really a maximum. At this point we can reduce this
when we hold our hearings in December, but whatever you adopt tonight is a maximum tax levy
and we cannot go above that. Having put out the process, now I'd kind of like to just review
where we' ye been. I started out with a fairly large increase this year in our general fund
expenditures that we' ve proposed over for 2003 over 2002. Our expenditures in the document in
front of you are up $753,000, with approximately $380,000 of that being new expenditures in
support of existing programs. $280,000 of that is for street improvements that you've talked
about extensively with the City Engineer and the pavement management Program, and the
remaining $100,000 is new employees that we've added to try and maintain the existing services
given the increase in population and the amount of facilities and infrastructure that we have to
maintain the city. The remainder of this is inflationary increases and additional contractual
services that are required, including approximately $34,000 for library maintenance. Now what
you're looking at tonight is reduced approximately $100,000 from the previous ones that we had
talked about 2 weeks ago. We' ye made some additional changes at the staff level to reduce that
tax levy and the expenditure level. The other thing that's affecting us this year is that we have
some reduced revenue sources. During the past several years we've used one time revenues to
help balance the general fund budget and those have been effective but we've kind of reached the
13
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
end of those. We've been I think fairly creative in coming up with those but we don't have any
that we see on the horizon for next year or for the near future. The largest one that we use this
year that we will not have available next year is an excess tax coming from the Hennepin County
TIF District. It will be our distribution of the remaining money in that fund since we were not
able to use that money for reconstruction of Highway 101. The other loss of revenue that we're
facing is $60,000 worth of rental revenue that we used to collect on the old bank building, which
is now being used as a construction office for Kraus-Anderson and will be removed as part of the
library and City Center plaza park. What it really does is it leads us to an imbalance between tax
revenues and expenditures. We've got a 9.3 percent tax, or expenditure increase and that's
leading us to over a 20 percent levy increase for general fund purposes. We also have a number
of other levies that we set on an annual basis. Those include general obligation debt, which in
this case is equipment certificates, special assessment debt which is money for construction
projects that have been at least partially specially assessed against property owners, generally in
street construction. We also have two referendums that are on our levy, and that is a park
referendum and the library referendum, both of which were passed by the voters in the last 5
years. What we have done this evening at our earlier work session is to reduce that special
assessment debt levy by $200,000. What we're going to do is we are going to find some method
to use some one time revenues to reduce that debt levy, but we do want to maintain our long term
goal of keeping expenditures tied to current revenue sources so that we don't have a structural
imbalance in our financing mechanism. We do have a precedent for paying debt with some one
time sources, and I think that that is probably an effective method of using those one time
sources. Generally you want to try and match revenues and expenditures so if you do have some
one time payments you can make, you should make them onto one time expenditures. Otherwise
the following year you'll have to raise the tax levy even higher than you would have in order to
catch up so to speak with the reduction that you made in the previous year. Having said that I
think that what you have in front of you is a reasonable request, which I hope that you can
support. It's going to lead, based on some rough calculations that I have using certainly very
gross numbers from the County Assessor and from the auditor, but it's going to lead to
approximately 13.4 percent increase in the total city tax levy, which will translate into about a
10.2 percent increase on an individual property. That's because we've had during the past year
an increase in value in the property because of new construction, additions, and remodelings of
about 3.2 percent which helps to reduce the overall burden that's faced by individual property
owners. With that I will stop my presentation and take any questions you might have.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. And thank you for walking through some of those revisions
that we made prior to this meeting. The conversation that council had in work session was
basically wanting to try to challenge as to how we can get this proposed levy down into what we
perceive to be a more reasonable level, though unfortunately, and we do feel that staff has done
an excellent job of keeping things tight and efficient and evaluating cost of services and the like
with us. Unfortunately we keep losing our revenue sources and as that has continued to occur, it
has impacted our taxpayer as we' ve had to raise these levies and we certainly addressed that last
year. We were provided a grid from staff that does show that over the last what 5 years on
average the gross levy increase has in fact mirrored the population increase so part of our
conversation as a council was to try to also better mirror that population increase if we could
going into 2003. At this point we've had a conversation about doing an additional $180,000 in
cuts. However, until we have the opportunity over the next 3 months to identify what those cuts
could conceivably be with staff, we do not want to restrict the levy making it impossible for us to
cover services and costs that the conmnunity in fact may not want to see us cut. We did a
community survey last September and though the majority of our residents said loud and clear
that our taxes are high and they would like to see us do something about them, they're considered
a problem. The taxpayers also said they didn't want to see us cut services in order to reduce
14
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
taxes, so we're in that difficult position of okay, how do you one without doing the other. So we
will be doing again every year we do an extensive evaluation with staff, department by
department. That's what we will proceed to do over the next, you know 3 months. So we're
anticipating that though we are setting this levy amount this evening, that it will conceivably
come down below that, but we do not as I said, want to cut our options off before we've had that
opportunity to do all of those conversations that need to occur in order to take that $180,000 out
of someplace that we haven't identified at this point. Council, any questions for staff on Bruce's
presentation at this point?
Councilman Peterson: Bruce the only one that I have is on the actual resolution. You've got a
number of $8,868,635. I'm trying to correlate that to something that you've given us before. Is
that just a typographical error or am I missing something?
Bruce DeJong: No. That is the budget amount of revenues and expenditures, which really has
nothing to do with the net tax levy but it' s included in your packet this time. If you open to the
2003 budget, the revenue page. It's actually two facing pages in here. In that you can see the
total revenue for 2003 is anticipated at $8,868,635.
Councilman Peterson: It's just a number we haven't talked about per se, so I didn't catch it.
Mayor Jansen: Any other questions for staff? Council, any additional comments though we've
reviewed this in the work session. Certainly take the opportunity if there are comments that
you'd like to have in the public record to do that at this time.
Councilman Ayotte: I think what should be noted is that staff and council have worked hard to
ensure that we work towards a reduction. And that we could have conveniently hit at a higher
levy and elected not to. Just to say, decided not to. So we have a target bogey for a cost
reduction in addition to addressing the $200,000 that's addressed in this document so I just want
to make it clear that the situation here is a good news situation, and we should be talking more
towards a positive that we've already taken some steps to ensure that the levy isn't something
that's going to be a stress to our residents.
Mayor Jansen: Okay thank you.
Councilman Boyle: I agree. The real challenge of trying to balance, and Madam Mayor has
already said this. How do you balance the cost of goods and services with the amount of money
you've got to spend to achieve that. It's a major challenge but we're challenging ourselves and
we're challenging staff to try to find ways to do that. It's going to be a lot of fun in the next few
months.
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council members. If I can just, if you can go to the proposed levy
certification pages and I' 11 make you familiar with some of the numbers that we had discussed
during the work session. If you go under the very top line, the revenue. The general fund
revenue you see the $6,465,535. That number relates to the number that we had discussed during
the work session. And then if you go down to the special assessment debt, you'll notice Bruce
lowered that by $200,000 so that's approximately $300,000 that we had talked about. And as part
of that discussion we were going to take excess fund balance to balance that budget back up to the
level of $8,868,635 and that should balance from what our discussions were upstairs. That' s it.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Okay, again I want to thank staff for having worked as hard as you
have with us on getting the preliminary levy set. It's never easy until we can, actually it's not any
15
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
easier as we start diving into the detail. However I do think that starting last year we set a proper
practice at least under your guidance to address those debt situation with these fund reserves.
That we are in fact planning that balance budget and fully funding the services that are in place,
but that what we're trying to do is apply what reserves we have to lessen 'the burden on our
taxpayers but also reduce the amount of debt that the city's carrying because one of the reasons
for us to have these cash reserves is in anticipation of these debt service amounts that we have
coming off in the future and some future liabilities. So we are trying to be very responsible in
where we are directing those funds, at the same time trying to reduce that burden on the taxpayer
and that's been a very consistent message that this council has tried to express. All of us
concerned about taxes but we have this ominous debt situation that we're having to address in a
shortfall anticipated or at least partially anticipated. We don't know by how much in the near
future and it's the by how much that we still have to determine and will eventually come to
fruition but I do think it seems like a very responsible practice for us to keep addressing that debt
the best that we can without impacting our bond rating and that's where again we have a lot of
work and discussion still to have on how much of our cash reserve do we need to maintain in
order to not impact that bond rating, because of course it is again another savings to our taxpayers
as far as interest rates on the debt that we do have. So thank you for walking through all of this
and for revising this over the last couple hours for us so that we could work on this resolution. Is
there anything else that you care to add?
Bruce DeJong: I hope that it's complete and is understandable as this rather muddy process
gets...
Mayor Jansen: Appreciate that. Could I have a motion please.
Councihnan Boyle: I'll make a motion that we adopt the proposed levy.
Mayor Jansen: Do you need us to add any detail or how specific do you need that to be?
Bruce DeJong: ...under the proposed levy certification.
Councilman Boyle: So moved.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. And a second?
Councilman Ayotte: Second.
Resolution ~2002-85: Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City
Council approve the resolution adopting the preliminary 2003 budget and establishing
Truth in Taxation levies for 2002, collectible in 2003 as presented by staff. All voted in
favor, except Councilman Peterson who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to
1.
Councilman Peterson: I oppose on the basis that I still believe it's too high for even a preliminary
so we'll work on that in the next 3 months.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. And thank you to staff. Appreciate it.
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS.
Mayor Jansen: Any reports back from commissions?
16
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
Councilman Ayotte: The only thing I' 11 mention for the Environmental Commission, they're
considering moving their meeting for the 11th of September to another date. They're putting
feelers out as to when that will occur, so I don't think it's going to be on this Wednesday.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. One I thought interesting fact that was shared with us from the
Southwest Metro Transit was on the State Fair numbers and I enjoyed sharing that with council
because that was a relatively new service that they added just a couple of years ago and their final
numbers came in. In the year 2001 they had transported 22,719 residents to the State Fair. This
year that number went to 29,445 so they had a 30 percent increase in ridership to the fair this
year, so it is a slick service. If you want to go to the fair and you hate parking and I think people
are now discovering that and sharing the word on what a convenient service that is to the State
Fair, so it was nice to see their ridership numbers jump like that. And Mr. Gerhardt, anything
under administrative presentations?
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS.
Todd Gerhardt: We started putting brick on the library today so when we have daylight, if you
want to drive by and take a look at a sample of what the brick will look like. Look at the east
tower that's out there and they started on the lower part of it. We're working on a little issue
every day out there but it's going well. Pray for no rain.
Councilman Peterson: Are you concerned about Barry's letter that was in the packet?
Todd Gerhardt: I think you never know. It' s weather. If we can have good weather through the
end of October, middle of November I think we're going to be okay.
Mayor Jansen: The other thing I should have mentioned under council presentations, the Eastern
Carver County Collaborative Leadership group is going to be putting together a communications
package. The conversation by the group has been that we in fact meet. We have these
collaborative efforts. We're sharing information financially as well as transportation wise and
things that are going on in the community, the county, the school district, and we don't really get
that communicated. And it's a significant effort and it really has helped as far as coordinating
things. We had done a communications piece back when transportation became a key
conversation and a complication for the school district a year ago so just so you're aware we are
working on pulling together some sort of a communication vehicle on that that hopefully will be
implemented. We're going to have a conversation with the group at their next meeting in
October so it will happen over probably the fourth quarter at some point as we try to pull that
together, but just FYI. Any correspondence discussion?
Councilman Peterson: Just the one, Todd just one more question for you. Anything new on 101
trail? Anything atypical happening that you've heard of?
Todd Gerhardt: No. You know weather again is playing a factor in that. We have some exposed
areas with the large amount of rain so we have seen erosion issues but other than that I was not
appraised of anything from Teresa that we're behind any 8 ball or anything like that.
Councilman Peterson: Okay, thanks.
Mayor Jansen: Are you hearing any issues?
17
City Council Meeting - September 9, 2002
Councilman Peterson: No.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Alright, with that if I could have a motion to adjourn.
Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted
in favor and the motion carried. The City Council meeting was adjourned at 8:10 p.m.
Submitted by Todd Gerhardt
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
18
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
AUGUST 27, 2002
Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Amy O'Shea, Glenn Stolar, Paula Atkins, Tom Kelly and
David Happe
MEMBERS ABSENT: Jack Spizale
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Superintendent
(The recording of this meeting was of poor quality and therefore some discussion is not
complete.)
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: As presented.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Happe moved, Stolar seconded to approve the Minutes of the
Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated July 23, 2002 as submitted. All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
REGIONAL TRAILS - 2002-2003 WINTER TRAIL ACTIVITIES PERMIT.
Hoffman: Chair Franks, members of the commission. Each year the city has made application to
utilize the South LRT as a snowmobile trail just for our section of the community. And then it
does continue to the west into Chaska, but only along the ditch of State Highway 212. Many
years ago Eden Prairie determined that snowmobiles were no longer going to be allowed in the
city at all, and now they have what would be commonly referred to as a trailer ordinance where
you need to take the snowmobile from the city and you put it on a trailer and you take it out a
designated trail head or another location. In Chanhassen we still have a few minor trail
connections, snowmobile trail connections. One along Highway 5. One going down south and
connecting with Pioneer Trail, and then dumping down at the Pioneer bridge at the LRT and then
continuing out to the west. The Snowmobile Club has always been interested in preserving that
ability to snowmobile out of the city to the trails to the west as long as possible. To date this has
not posed any great problems. If you think about it in the terms of once they get there, there's
really no problem. It' s getting there that causes the minor problems. If there are any existing in
that area, and each year there certainly are property issues with people snowmobiling in property
along the ditch line .... since '94 that this permit has been approved by Hennepin Parks, now
Three Rivers Park District, and we have made application for it. The requirements are that we
must sign it which the snowmobile club signs the trail and they have a list of the rules that apply
to the trails as part of your packet. And then the city provides liability, insurance which we do in
two installs. One goes up the first...goes through the end of the season. The only other trail
comment I' 11 make about snowmobiling and jet skiing in the city is, fortunately we live in climate
that has seasons because just about the time complaints reach...snow melts, or the ice comes so
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
it's a tough issue to manage...offer that service we feel it's appropriate. With that it's
recormnended that the commission recommend to the City Council that they submit an
application to the Hennepin Regional Park District, now Three River Park District for the use of
the southern LRT trail located in Chanhassen as a designated .snowmobile trail and that would be
limited to 2002-2003 season. And I'll answer any questions the commission may have.
Kelly: One question I've got. The connector comes on Pioneer Trail. I think last winter, that has
been plowed...the snowmobiles get there.
Hoffman: Probably in the opposite ditch line. The south ditch line.
Kelly: Okay. Because I know I was thinking Eden Prairie either plowed that LRT trail north of
Pioneer all last winter.
Franks: Any other questions for staff?
Stolar: What is the cost for that liability policy?
Hoffman: Nothing.
Stolar: Just part of the overall.
Hoffman: It's a rider on the policy.
O'Shea: I have one quick thing. That doesn't intersect with any trail, running or walking trail
does it?
Hoffman: No.
O'Shea: There's no chance of a runner being.
Hoffman: Well there's mixed use on there. There are certain people who choose to use it for
walking. In fact there are quite a few people who choose to walk and somebody quoted the other
day that it's such a great walking route because the snowmobiles pack it down. And there are
some people that use it as cross country skiing, but the primary use of it, that would be walking
dogs I believe. But the permit does not allow us to advertise for any other use...
O'Shea: Do they know that risk? I'm just thinking that a snowmobile coming at 40 miles an
hour and somebody skiing.
Hoffman: They're skiing on a snowmobile trail.
O'Shea: Okay. That would be my concern, even with signs there's a chance that somebody
walking their dog or skiing will collide so that would be a concern. I don't know how you'd
control that.
Hoffn~tan: It's been operating that way for what, 8 years now.
Kelly: ...just announcing when it opens for a snowmobile trail and that will...in the paper.
Hoffman: We can submit a.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
Kelly: Rec notice or something.
Franks: Do you include these type of things on the web site as well?
Hoffman: We have the trail section on there.
Franks: Yeah. On the new one.
Ruegemer: This is the first winter we'll have it so.
Franks: It' s just something to consider if it fits in.
Hoffman: I think a general observation...that this is a snowmobile trail and... Normally peak
hours on there are weekends or evenings when...
Franks: Any further questions for staff? Seeing that there' s no members of the audience here to
address the commission on this item, we'll just bring it right back and are there any comments
from commissioners?
Happe: I'm assuming that there weren't any complaints from last year that we need to be aware
of as we get ready to approve this or recommend this application.
Franks: We've had some comments about snowmobile usage within the city but not in
accordance with this trail.
Hoffman: Early on we had a lot of concern when this first was permitted and we had one
property owner that had complaints and.., were included in the packet.
Franks: Any other commissioner comments? Alright, seeing none. Is there a motion?
Happe: I move that the commission recommend to the City Council that they submit an
application for the Suburban Hennepin Regional Park District for use of the southern LRT trail
located in Chanhassen as the designated snowmobile trail for this coming winter.
Franks: Is there a second?
Kelly: Second.
Happe moved, Kelly seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that
the City Council submit an application to the Suburban Hennepin Regional Park District
for use of the southern LRT trail located in Chanhassen as a designated snowmobile trail.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0.
Franks: No Snowmobile Club members want to come in.
Happe: Is that a pretty big club?
Hoffman: Oh yeah.
Happe: Who heads it up?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
Hoffman: They switch around. They meet at the.., occasionally we put it in your admin packet.
REVIEW FINAL DRAFT, 2003 PARK AND TRAIL ACQUISITION 'AND
DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM (CIP).
Hoffman: Chair Franks, members of the commission. The report is broken into primary
components, and then along with the... Just briefly what I attempted to present this evening is the
results of the comments that were made at the June meeting by the commission and then making
some switches. Basically one switch or some dollars that were allocated for the City Center Park
for a park building, the Bandimere Park from staff' s directive is seeing a tremendous amount of
use and the dollars that would be invested in such a building would be put to better use at
Bandimere Park currently then at City Center Park. There is also as part of a reaching question of
the final design of the road system and parking around City Hall as it has to do with the library,
so putting a $275,000 structure in the middle of that plan when we're not sure what's going to
happen, probably is premature at this time. The proposed 2003 park and trail CIP totals $893,000
which was an aggressive CIP for the commission. Of that amount $620,000 is proposed to be
funded from park dedication fees. And then the remaining $273,000 is proposed to be part of...
This allocation is...look at comparisons is $38,000 more than the funds annual income average
for the past 4 years and I think the average annually $572,000 gives you one perspective. Second
sense is if you want to compare this again to the current cash balance, which is about $1.8 million
following the completion of the Highway 101 north trail which everyone is seeing is under
construction. And the south 101 south trail, taxes earned in the park dedication...million dollars.
And so you can start to do the math a variety of ways. You can take that whole million and take
away the other $93,000, you're about emptying the piggy bank down to zero and then hopefully
you're adding back in, in a year's income, approximately $500,000 back. So if you take a look at
it in the vast, in that kind of frame, we're investing a good deal of money in park trail
improvements and this year will be no exception .... park dedication fund at approximately a half
a million dollars giving an average year in park dedication fund. And all the reasons are pretty
basic. The 101 north trail is going to cost somewhere between a half a million and $700,000.
Probably closer to a half a million dollars by the time it' s all said and done. And if you take that
in one project. The 101 south trail and Highway 5 connector's our big project and a project that
we're looking at this evening, a very aggressive project as well, especially the Bandimere
Community Park. The other big item on the list, and then I' 11 go quickly through the rest is the
Lake Ann Park and resurfacing of the parking lot and road. The original part of the park that you
see out there today dates back to 1971 when that asphalt was put in. That's original. It's not been
taken out. It's approximately 2 to 2 1/2 inches and it's completely failed in most areas and...
alligatored to the point where it looks like it's just chunks of asphalt put together in a random
pattern. And then of course that foot path a 50/50 park dedication, 50 fund allocation for
$240,000. We go back to the top and we have the Bandimere Community shelter, which would
be a full service shelter of 275. The Chan Rec Center has a couple of allocations. The $15,000
carpet replacement is really untouchable. It needs to be...pulled out in the past few years and it's
starting to give way at the entrance of the facility. Curry Farms Park and Meadow Green Park
and the first two of what will need to be 10 playground replacements in the city of wood
playgrounds. These are not wood...playgrounds, which would be redwood playgrounds which
installation started in 1986 for those structures and ended at about 1994-1996. So for
approximately a 10 year period of time we purchased only redwood...playground structures. And
what we see in those is excessive wear in the play areas, and then what we would call...flaring
where a child will get multiple small slivers in their hands or thighs generally. Sometimes in their
forearms because of the wood and what we would do periodically is flip the wood over or flip the
rounds over on the playground.., and then sand them but it's a fairly intensive maintenance wise.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
These playgrounds also experience frost heaving where the frost grabs onto the poles and shoots
them up and out of the ground in pressure ridge and come out...putting those back into the
ground. Rethreading the posts and just spending a whole lot of labor on these types of
playgrounds where...metal playgrounds and plastic, they are much more easily maintained.
Meadow Green and Curry Farms, the reason the numbers are fairly high. Traditionally we think
we can get a pretty nice playground for $30,000 but what we see today are those costs have risen
closer to $40,000. And we also need to include approximately $10,000 and maybe a little more
for the concrete border that we're putting around the playgrounds that you see at Bandimere.
Sugarbush Park, Minnewashta Park and just an excellent way to install the border. No wood. No
plastic. Plastic...frost heave out of the ground and break. For short term they're a good solution
but long term they're not a good solution. We have some picnic table allocations... Skate park
allocation. Two trail projects and we'll briefly go over those. Highway 41 connectors. What we
have today is we' ve got a trail that comes down along Longacres for about a block and a half
along Highway 41, and then just to the south of that Pulte Homes is...so we'll have two pieces of
trail separated by about 3 blocks, 4 blocks that need to be connected so all those people
can...running and walking route. It's in a state highway right-of-way. It's not on city property.
It's not on Pulte property. So for you to make a connection...trail program so the city will need
to pay for it .... similar to the trail we're doing right now on 101 and it will cost approximately
$90,000 due to the terrain and the retaining walls that will need to go in to build these trails. The
other connection are two that were not connected as a part of this year's 101 north trail. 101
north trail will terminate at the north end of 101 at Pleasant View Road and so I feel fairly
strongly that we should take it from the north side of Pleasant View down to the Near Mountain
connection... There also is going to be continued north... 101 down to Town Line Road to make a
connection to the Minnetonka trail on Highway 101 north and then up in the neighborhood along
Town Line Road to allow for that...trail continue north. The final acquisition, a three year
replacement program for trash receptacles...blue barrels to green barrels with the trash covers on
them. And the tree ~lanting, we continue to... commentary that is provided there...I would ask
that the commission consider forwarding to the City Council. If you would like to make
changes...discuss that prior to doing that.
Franks: Thank you Todd. A couple of, I'll just start out with some of the questions that I have.
First, I'm wondering why there was...half and half on the Lake Ann parkway and what your
reaction was to that?
Hoffman: Well our S & L for the last, at least 3 years...solely out of the general fund has been
turned away. So we've... $50,000 project which would be complete reconstruction and the
installation of curbing and storm water management, down to an overlay which would most likely
see a mat put over an overlay mat, and then asphalt material with no curb and gutter. One thing
commissioners need to keep in mind is that I think the council is currently facing a million dollar
overage without these numbers. Without, where is it?
Franks: 273.
Hoffman: Yep. And so they're less likely again...the testimony from staff on the budget
nmnbers for the upcoming budget and they'll be considering sending those back...levy at their
next City Council meeting. And then they're going to be wrestling with what are they going to
do with the general fund. So we're going to shoot those numbers uP there and ask for them. I
recommend you shoot these numbers up and ask for them to be funded. I think it's...ask for the
entire amount because they simply haven't been looked upon favorably in the past few years.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
Franks: I can understand that. It's just that when I look at how you've broken down where you
want the funds to come from, it seems pretty clear that it follows the philosophy that this
commission had talked about earlier about new acquisitions being born principally out of the park
dedication fund. Whereas maintenance and replacement are really looking at other funding
source or like a general fund allocation for those.
Hoffman: Yep.
Franks: So that's why when I saw this 50/50, I was just like wondering what the sort of rationale
was for that one but it sounded as if it was a big ticket item. That it may appear a little bit easier
to swallow. My concern is that it be made clear that the philosophy is consistent with what we're
trying to do and that it is the, if we approve this, the commission really endorsing, attempting to
work in a cooperative way understanding the financial constraints that the council is under as
well, and not that it's a statement about whenever these types of projects come up, that our
philosophy of how they should be funded. Again following this pattern, I'm just wondering too,
two things. This skate ramping, the new ramp coming out of the general fund and then going
down to trash receptacles, which are new acquisitions as well for the parks, coming out of park
dedication fund.
Hoffman: The skate park...that should simply be park dedication...
Franks: So that should be park dedication? Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I thought so too.
Hoffman: And trash receptacles are, and you can go either way on that.
Franks: I think that works for me anyway.
Hoffman: The ones we have out there today were free.
Franks: That's what I mean, the blue barrels. So this is essentially putting them in new for the
first time. Okay. If you could for me just real briefly describe again how the 101 north
connectors are fitting in.
Hoffman: The trail plan?
Franks: Yeah. How that effectively going north of Town Line.
Hoffman: We're going to continue right ditch of 101 north right up to Town Line and make a
connection that they have coming off of Minnetonka from...coming out of the north side. There
may be a missing piece there in Minnetonka.
Franks: Yeah. Right, that's what I'm, okay.
Hoffman: We're not going to venture past that. We can hit the city boundary at Town Line so
we can go there and work with Eden Prairie and Minnetonka to get their piece down but if you
get to Town Line, 101 to get onto Town Line Road which will...
Stolar: Yeah, I'm trying to think of the trail does go across...falls a little short. And then the
other piece of it you said was going to go on the north side of Pleasant View. All the way to
where the other trail kind of crosses the road there and goes into a connection to that.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
Franks: So the idea then is that would connect the Near Mountain neighborhood to the 101 trail.
Hoffman: Yep. Plus a couple of other neighborhoods feed into that.
Franks: Okay, thank you. Any other commission questions for staff?.
Stolar: I just wanted to run some numbers again. Beginning deficit is 1.8. And then it's like
500,000 roughly is just a projection so we'll have 2.3 and out of that, how much of the 101 trail is
this year's funding in 2003? Or how much of that 2.3 is taken out for the current 101 rebuilding?
Hoffman: Will be billed this year? To the fund.
Stolar: Yeah. I mean does the 2.3, that doesn't take into account the funding for that trail, right?
Or does it?
Franks: What I think Glenn is saying is that we've got a cash balance right now of 1.8 and you're
expecting.
Stolar: 500 in 2003.
Franks: So does tiffs 1.8 reflect 2002's income?
Hoffman: No.
Franks: Okay, and that will be.
Hoffman: It reflects income through about June.
Franks: Through June. So about half of the year.
Stolar: So we should expect another $250,000. And then we also should expect $500,000. What
I'm trying to get to is what is our December 31, 2003 balance. You say just under a million is
what you'd expect it to be?
Hoffman: Can't put a date to it. The way I look at it is based on projects and I'm not sure when
the building will occur on the 101 north trail. So the balance, they may have not built it and I
can't account for how engineering is going to do the accounting. Whether they're going to pay
for that fund out of, no 101 money may come out of it by December 31st of this year.
Stolar: Of 2003 I said. I'm looking if we do, we have all the projects we don't anticipate for,
take our current balance and income, what's the end number that we will have available for 2004
for spending?
Hoffman: Again estimated, we went through that. It's going to right around a half million to
$700,000 more or less.
Stolar: What was our total 101 trail contribution?
Hoffman' North?
Franks: It will be an estimated.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
Hoffman: $500,000.
Stolar: If I add that 500 to the 620 or 630 that's 1.1, out of 2.3 balance that we're going to
have...
Hoffman: We need to pick up the rest of this year's expenditures. $200,000 for 101 south. The
other things that we have in this year's budget.
Stolar: Actually that's what I was...okay. And then, in presenting this to the City Council, could
we please have that balance to see what the situation is? I know they know what, but it might be
good...because I am very much in support of our staying with our philosophy and so I'd be
hesitant, even though you know this may be unrealistic, I still believe that we should take the
Lake Ann funding and put it all in general fund. List the balance that we have at the end of the
time with that, because you've already reduced the cost. Did you ever propose the 240 option to
them? Or was it a full scale. So I think we take, you should take...we found a cheaper way to do
it. We still have the general fund hitting this and then show what our balance is at the end and
that way we're consistent with our philosophy, plus you showed a reduction in the Lake Ann
resurfacing.
Hoffman: I'll be glad to do that. One choice compared to how they're going to look at these kind
of dollars versus what they're getting in today. Right now there's a $250,000 allocation for
general fund money for road improvement, which council has been struggling with, this council
has been struggling with for over a year. They've gone through an assessment policy where
there's going to be a certain portion of those street improvements assessed and then this is the city
allocation. And they're having a very difficult time keeping that $250,000 in there. You have
$250,000 is a quarter of the million that is currently up and beyond what they've had to deal with
in the past year. So we're going to put it into the mix and then take some, the commission's
going to have to talk to their council members to make sure they understand the importance of the
improvements and the philosophies that it be taken out of the general fund allocation...
Stolar: Are you making an analogy here though that like the city would assess a neighborhood to
repair their road, this is our assessment for our park to pay for their road to be fixed? City pays
part, we pay part. Is that how you're approaching it?
Hoffman: No.
Stolar: You're just saying you want to do whatever's realistic to try to get the money.
Hoffman: What I've come down to is the Lake Ann Park is, I'm just tried of seeing the black eye
on Lake Ann Park. It's a beautiful, beautiful park and we have a piece of junk road that goes into
it. I want to get it repaired, and I've reminded the council in their line of progression that even,
we go down to a 240, we're buying a half of a job. And so the thing will maybe be done in
maybe 10 or 15 years instead of 30 years to do a complete reconstruction so we're just buying a
quick fix at 240.
Stolar: I know we're opening the gate, but then that's just going to open wider.
Hoffman: Tonight's very...very little money's been allocated out of the general fund. The
maximum that the Park and Recreation Department has received a general fund allocation for
capital items has been...
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
Stolar: Part of the other part of my saying what' s the end balance, as we talked about before,
there may be the reality that we won't have enough for what we need and we'll have to revisit
that with, eventually with a bond or some other approach. And I'm worried about going against
our philosophy here about repairs and maintenance without that piece of... To say all repair and
maintenance you go to the citizens and ask for funding for repair and replacement. Great, then
this can be thrown in there, but until that time I'd prefer approaching it with our philosophy.
Franks: Thank you Glenn. Any other questions?
Kelly: Yeah I was wondering, do we have to worry about City Center Park coming out of the
park dedication in 2004? City Center Park has a pretty big price tag on it. That could take a
majority of whatever balance is coming out of 2004, which what will leave us with almost
nothing for the remainder of 2004.
Hoffman: Presently it's unclear how much of that allocation will be out of 410 or how much will
come out of the general fund or how much will come out of the library budget and that' s an
administrative project managed by the manager. But at some point they will pay the project...
but it's going to go higher than that...
Kelly: I was just curious. It's something, it seems like a pretty high price tag item for 2004.
Also on the Curry Park and Meadow Green, are they going to be Bandimere quality of play areas
and surface? Is it going to be that foam surface that they have at Bandimere?
Hoffman: No, it'd be similar to the other neighborhood parks where the new one, the concrete
border and then pea gravel surface. And the play structure would be more like a Sugarbush or
Roundhouse. Not the sky tower you see at Bandimere. We'd like to continue putting that rubber
material in all the community parks. The problem is when you see the surfacing in concrete, it's
almost equivalent to the cost of the structure, which we receive a 50 percent discount, but still it's
very, it costs $40,000, equivalent to $40,000...
Atkins: I have one comment on the rec center. With the fitness center currently being the major
money or revenue producer, and the community center being down the road a few years, would it
make sense to even buy more cardiovascular equipment? Where you take another space and
maybe you have 10 or 12 even additional cardiovascular. My fear is, because it's crowded, that
it's not serving the needs of people that want to work out. If you don't do that, are we going to
see a slip in attendance.
Hoffman: That' s a philosophical question that staff has talked about since the opening of the
center. Council has struggled with and what I think the best way to look at it is to remind
ourselves that deriving profits at the rec center is not the primary focus. It's a balanced facility
and when it was built the meeting room spaces, which are the only spaces that you could expand
in, were the primary goal of the community. The city was very deficient in meeting space for a
variety of community groups...and any other small fitness room... The fitness room has reached
a very good equilibrium. We receive very few complaints about that it's crowded because people
realize that if it doesn't fit their schedule...they've bought $20 worth of punches and they...when
they're gone and that's not a huge...because it can only fit so many people.., go to Eden Prairie
has private clubs, Chaska and other facilities. If we expand and take the community room out
and that is, that provides...detriment to our community space needs, which are very important to
the city. About the second year that the community or the recreation center opened, the City
Council took a look at the balance sheet and said the facility is not making enough money. We
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
had a goal or thought that we should make more money when we opened it compared to what we
end up in each year in staffing and other costs. Today it's about a quarter million dollar operation
and we make $175,000...second year of operation the council make more money. Kick those
freebies out and find new paying customers, which staff did. Resulted in a huge outcry from
those groups, the school groups, the community groups. Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, all those
people were upset and said hey, you built a recreation center here for the community. We want
access to it. We don't care if it's losing...we want to be there with our community group...it
would be very easy to do but I' m not sure that' s in the best interest of the community to do that.
It seems to be working. The City Manager asked the same question, and it would take some
investigation to decide whether or not that would be a good idea.
Atkins: Do you think it's worth investigating?
Hoffman: I don't get the feel that it is because the room we struggle with most is the meeting
room space. That's where we have the most need and we need more of that kind of space, and
I'm sure... I'm not quite sure that is the philosophy of what the recreation center...
Atkins: Yeah...general public views it that way. I think they think they paid for a rec center...
join a club it costs them more money but that is...so I don't know.
Hoffman: Just a punch card. That's really the best thing about the rec center, people don't pay a
membership fee. They don't pay to join... The other part that goes along with that is they'll
never pay back your capital investment .... $30,000 or $40,000 worth of cardio machines, at 2
bucks a piece we're not going to pay back our capital investment...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Franks: Let's bring it back to the conm-fission for connnents. Go ahead.
Happe: I'll start. Highway 101 north and south I think are an excellent use of dollars that we
have available. I think it's pretty central to the mission of Park and Rec. We continue to expand
the infrastructure of trails. That being said, that's not really part of these dollars we're looking at
tonight. I have difficulty with the fact that we're going to propose a budget that has us spending
more than our income. We' re asking for, if we take the Lake Ann Park issue and set it aside, to
come back to later in our dialogue, we're still asking for $653,000 in overall spending against an
anticipated income over a 4 year history of $582,000 annually. So we're asking for council's
approval or permission for whatever reason to spend more than our income. Bandimere park
shelter ought to cost us $275,000. That would be a spectacular addition to the community but the
council is going to take a look at areas or opportunities to pull back, I think it' s, when we talk
about the Lake Ann issue, I think it' s unrealistic. If we even put more weight on general fund' s
shoulders, I think it's unrealistic to expect that we're going to have our needs met with us trying
to get that road built or fixed. The cuts that the council's facing one million dollar overage to that
general fund before our request fully hits their desk. The max that they have allocated in years
past to spend out of the general fund is $30,000 and if you take the Lake Ann Park spending that
we're asking for and set that aside, we're still asking for, I don't have the calculation of what the
total dollars are that we're asking to come out of the general fund.
Stolar: It' s like $143 if you take the 10 and move it for the park dedication.
Happe: So we're asking for considerably more than has ever been approved to come out of the
general fund before the Lake Ann project even hits the table. So I guess preliminarily it's my
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
opinion that we should strive to present the budget that's at least consistent with what we
anticipate our income to be. I realize Todd that we're spending that savings that has been in this
account for many years, and actually it increased every year for the past 10 years. It is being
spent. I think it's being spent by the council in areas that are not inconsistent with park and rec,
especially'the 101 trail project, but I'd just like to ask our commission to greatly consider trying
to submit a budget proposal that' s at least representative of the amount of income that we expect
park and trail dedication fees to generate so that we're not helping to add to a deficit or a funding
problem for the council, but we can actually be part of the solution to that. That being said
Chairman Franks I don' t have specifics that could be brought up to start part of the conversation
from the other commissioners as to what some of the areas of opportunities to look at where we
could cut some of this spending money come from. I'm open to suggestions and ideas and don't
have a strong feeling about any particular area or any sacred cow that I'd like to keep in the
budget, but I would like to submit a budget that is a little bit more appropriate to our anticipated
income.
Franks: Thanks Dave. Amy, any comments?
O' Shea: Yeah, I have just a couple. I think it is important to make sure that we state our
philosophy on the Lake Ann. That we're not agreeing. That we would like to see these funds
spent on maintaining or improving the road. So I think with that noted, I think we should also
look at what has been funded. It needs to be done and I trust...if it all was proposed from the
general fund so I would go with Todd' s recommendation, but definitely noted that we are not
changing our philosophy and that's something we should, we're talking about in September. And
make sure that the council knows how strongly the commission feels on that. I see all this as a
need to be done and Dave, if you're right about spending. I guess what I'd like to see is, because
this is a new dilemma for this commission that that generating money...we need to look at how
we can change the Way we operate and how we can somehow continue to generate money. I
don't have the answer but I think we need to look at that and change our thought on, we aren't
going to have this stream of income coming that we have been so we can't sit back and not do
anything. We definitely need to brainstorm with staff or however the procedure would work of
how we can produce from another way than what's been done in the past. But I really don't see
things that aren't needed on this list so those are my comments.
Franks: Thanks. Todd I thought, I think it's a good list. I think that these projects that you've
outlined are all necessary and important and it's a great place to start. I appreciate Dave your
comment about spending within our means, and if we can have an average expected income of
over $500,000, that's kind of a target to shoot for generally speaking. Just to add a little insight to
that, and you alluded to it a little bit, is that over the course of a number of years, the commission
has intentionally spent less than the income that is expected to draw into the fund just for the
purpose to be able to fund projects as they came up at a time when it was right and necessary.
And it' s really my opinion that as we are right on the cusp of this, our growth curve, that the time
to really tackle these projects is now and that's the reason why the fund balance sits where it's at.
To handle these types of projects and so, it's also the reason why I think we're struggling with
this idea of replacement and maintenance not being funded from new park dedication dollars.
Again if we look at subtracting $140,000 from the amount that you' ve proposed to come out of
park dedication funds, the $620,000, we're back down to $500,000. Which then is within the
park dedication amount within the kind of budget idea that you've set by spending within our
income. And really looking at the city as a whole city and responsible to maintain the park
infrastructure that we've built, which the whole city gets to utilize and enjoy as well. I am in
agreement I think with Glenn that we should make a statement with the Lake Ann roadway, and
really suggest that that be funded from general fund dollars. I'm also a realist, understanding that
11
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 2'7, :2002
the council's going to look at that and have some problems with that. But it's our, in my opinion
it's this commission' s responsibility to look after the welfare of the park system and how that
should be taken care of. The council's responsibility is to see that larger picture, and if it' s a
decision that they make to fund that in some different way, well then they' ve received the input
from this body that we think it's the best way to do it. Then they've got that piece of information
to use in their decision making process. I'm hesitant to begin to make those decisions for the City
Council when in a sense we have some understanding of how that should, although quite possibly
will not occur. I don't see also anything on the list that we should subtract at Bandimere Park.
We get that shelter in, it's just going to totally increase that usage and make it a premiere sports
facility in town here. Todd, when you'd talking about full shelter, we're talking sanitary sewer
and water and the whole bit.
Hoffman: Listed under the current picnic shelter, the amenities would include the covered picnic
shelter, modern restrooms, concession space, storage space and... Sewer and water is already
stubbed out right underneath where the building would be. There's that large irrigation box
which is currently there. Those irrigation controls would be built right into the structure when we
have...
Franks: The one hit that we weren't necessarily expecting because we had no idea when it was
really going to come, and this commission really didn't have in my opinion a tremendous amount
of input in it's coming about was the 101 north trail...but I mean that's just a reality that needs to
go in. It should have gone in a long time ago. It's a good thing, but I think that leads to that
perception that wow, we're irresponsibly spending a lot of money from the fund, when in a sense
it's because of the responsibility of past commissions that we're able to fund these sorts of
projects all at once. So that's enough out of me. Let's move on. Tom, you're supposed to shut
rne up when I drone.
Kelly: I don't really have much to add. I agree that these are great projects. What I...is
Bandimere being so expensive but I mean there was so much activity there, there's absolutely no
shade at all and it would just be great to have that shelter there .... the City Council that we aren't
crazy about doing a 50/50 split on Lake Ann but if that's what needs to get done to make that
parking area look better, then if we have the money, we probably should try to do it.
Atkins: Well all this talk about figures is really giving me a headache because my area of
expertise are all, I'm a little bit lost here. I was curious about the figure for the park dedication
fund, but I gleaned that from listening to you guys that this list seems, I mean it's really been
whittled down from the first list you gave us a couple months ago so obviously it's prioritized
very well. The skate ramp I have a comment. Is it possible to do a fundraiser or have the kids do
a fundraiser to get a skate ramp or something like that in order to trim some money off? I don't
know if things like that are possible. If the council doesn't approve this, then what happens? Do
we have to trim it then ourselves?
Hoffman: Well...we want you to reduce it or this is the reductions that we're going to make so...
Atkins: If Bandimere, when someone holds, a group holds a tournament there, do they pay a fee
for usage?
Ruegemer: To rent the facility? No.
Atkins: If there was a park shelter there, would there be a fee applied like there is at the other
shelter?
12
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
Hoffman: There could be.
Atkins: I'm just curious.
Hoffman: Similar to Lake Ann.
Atkins: Yeah. And with the picnic tables and benches, are they new? Those are new
acquisitions, not replacing. Or replacing old or putting more new or?
Hoffman: Both. Some of both. I explained in we have maximum attrition where we get rid of
the old equipment and then we also add annual growth in our park system which requires
additional seating. Seating is one of the most common things that' s requested because in order to
experience the park, people need a place to sit, put their picnic.. The trail systems in the park have
become more popular to put these in .... picnic table and a bench, they're about 500 bucks a
piece...
Atkins: And the only other thing is, I'm learning all the time so this council meeting's going to
be very enlightening. That's all I have.-
Franks: Thanks. Glenn.
Stolar: Just a few things. Again I compliment staff on whittling it down is hard because
everything is good. Everything helps our park system and so it's very difficult. I mentioned
about what I felt about Lake Ann. I think we need to stick by our philosophy there. I don't know
Todd if you have discussions when they bring it up. For example if they ask that question you at
least have the opportunity to provide feedback to them.
Hoffman: Typically we have one opportunity a year for that. Maybe two during the budget
process. Commissioner O' Shea brought up a great comment that September 30th is coming
around. That' s one of your discussion topics for that evening. Give you an idea how this council,
how they.., and the Lake Ann Park building is sitting there today because of the general fund so
that's a million dollar general fund investment in the city's park system so when I say $30,000,
that...this type of work. The Lake Ann park shelter, or park maintenance program has been...
paid for solely out of the general fund. It paid for a section of the Lake Ann road and the building
of the maintenance structure itself so...
Stolar: I also I'd like to agree with David's comments that we have a budget conscience here.
The distinction here is no matter what we do, we're going to run out of money. We're not going
to be able to meet it so... spend it now and let's deal with the bond issue quick. How do we pay
for this in the future when the growth stops? And my experience in Eden Prairie, that's exactly
how they did it. They said we're going to spend because that's our philosophy and we're going
to go back and say okay, but the growth has stopped. Our source of funding has stopped. Do we
need another source? And the reality is to...but I do think if we take away Lake Ann we're down
to not quite under 500, with 500 the projection. If you put the projection at 510, we'd be at 510...
I also think, and you and I had talked about this in a sense. If I looked at the criteria for how we
should spend our money, we have some various things. We have safety issues. We have access
issues, enhanced usage, and repair and replacement and I put repair and replacement different
than safety. Those are things that you need to do because of safety reasons and there are those
that you need to do because of longevity issues so I can't say for sure on the park benches but
once they become an ugly eyesore and really need to replace them, that's repair and replacement
13
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
versus the playground equipment where there's a safety issue. And we mainly address the safety
issue. Park dedication historically it sounded has been really focused on some of the access
issues like longer trail system where we enhance the parks or create some new parks and access
and safety seem to be my top priorities. Now I support this plan with the one exception of the
Lake Ann project. If I have to look at anything to remove it would be enhance research because
any time...I still think we have a mission to have access and we have an obligation to deal with
safety. So those would be my top priorities.
Franks: I'm sorry, what was that?
Stolar: Our mission is to grant access and we have an obligation for safety so if any, you know
we don't lq~ow what's going to come out of the City Council, so it's just personal input to the
staff. If there's discussion at that point, that's how I feel we should prioritize. I think we should
approve this, and once we get to that point I'll ask that the Lake Ann thing be adjusted, but I think
we have to focus on access and safety.
Hoffman: Were those before you...
Stolar: There was a fifth one I can't remember what it was, but there was, yeah. I came here
fresh from work and I realized I forgot the list but those are generally speaking the areas. And
park dedication is set up for access.
Hoffman: So we can run through the financials once more. I set it up just in basic dollar
amounts...so everybody gets a feel for that, and again these are estimates. Word of caution is
that building permit activity is not at an all time high in the community. The multi-family is the
only thing in town. Single family permits are flat. Industrial permits are going backwards so
industrial has really driven a good deal of the revenue in those 582 type of numbers and that's just
not happening .... in town will not go into new space... On the income side for 2003, we got
down 1.8 and that would be CUlTent cash on hand. Point 2, which would be the remaining
income in 2002, and then...point 4, which would be income in 2003. Is about cash balance again
in 2003 is 2.4 or cash balance of income. In that same approximate time period would be .7
million in 2003 based on the plan that you have before you today. Point 3 add in in 2002
remaining, and that's not including 101, so .3 for the other things that we're doing. Point 5 for
101. And .2 for City Center, if that would be an allocation that is taken out of there for a total of
1.7, so we have a difference of approximately...in 2003.
Franks: I'm sorry, what was that again?
Hoffman: $700,000. 1.7 versus .4.
Franks: At the end of 2003.
Hoffman: 2003. That being the perspective...and this is all responsible investments and it's just
a philosophy. It's what you want to do. The town has grown to 21,000 people. The community
is asking for the reserves...community responded. The council has responded. Passed a.
referendum in '97...improvements. Continued on with that. The 101 north trail is absolutelY
going to be history in the making. At the same time we complete the 101 south trail, which has
seen very little publicity but it's going to be a wonderful compliment to the system. We'll have a
trail on 101 from Pioneer to Minnetonka. Pioneer Trail to Minnetonka. All the way down a state
highway which is on the county trail plan and the city did it all by themselves so I think we have
a lot to...philosophy. Do you want to continue to do that, or sit back and...you have porta
14
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
potties, you didn't have running water and you didn't have a place...headquarters and storage,
and you put that kind of facility a $275,000 improvement into a park which to date has cost us 2
million dollars, it's another 14 percent to that investment and it just caps off the park so... We
have this much and we put this much more to make it just that much better.
Franks: If we approve something tonight, when would it go to be considered by the council?
Hoffman: Well it will be submitted to the City Manager and the Finance Director tomorrow, and
then it would be put into the budget calendar and the City Council would most likely start talking
about it within the next 3 to 4 weeks. Perhaps longer than that based on their work calendar...
My hope would be that they would see it before the September 30th meeting.
Franks: Would they act on it?
Hoffman: No they would not.
Franks: So they would receive our recommendation for discussion and consideration.
Hoffman: They may...city manager's office and then finance director reviews it and then...
Happe: Chairman Franks, one additional comment. When you look at Bandimere, it may be
perceived as low hanging fruit for a city council that is looking for opportunities to see where
their checkbook spending is going. So if Bandimere Community Park is something that this
commission feels very strongly needs to happen in 2003, Todd I don't know if there's any way
that we can enhance our position or further define our support for not only having that park
shelter built, but built in 2003. Just kind of think through if we have not articulated our reasoning
or our position for why that has to happen in 2003, if that wouldn't be an easy line item for a
council looking for ways to turn down our proposed $893,000 total expenditures. I just don't
know if you can put any additional emphasis behind the commission's request for funds for that
particular facility. I likely will not vote in support of the overall budget for the'reasons that I've
discussed, but it's just my recommendation that the commission take a look at, see if they can
raise the language of the summary that Todd put together in a way that very much conveys why
we believe that that project needs to move forward in the 2003 plan.
Franks: I think that staff, when this is presented to council will be able to do a pretty good job of
justifying the necessity or importance of that shelter. Todd, you've done a good job of
communicating that to us tonight and when that comes up I feel pretty confident you'll be able to
do that. I think that is good we have these discussions on the record so as a part of our recorded
minutes, that these types of ideas are down that...if they wish to really have an understanding of
where we are at exactly and how we arrive at the decision. We certainly provided our minutes
and can look through them and see that pretty clearly so I appreciate you making those comments
for the record and it's certainly one that I endorse as well. Is there any more discussion from the
commission? Okay seeing none then I'd be interested in entertaining a motion. It's been talked
about a little bit. I don't think we've quite reached consensus so it's my understanding
concerning the funding for the Lake Ann Park roadway resurfacing, I think I made it clear how I
feel about it. My personal feeling is that I think that we should submit to the City Council a
budget that this commission feels is the best way to go about doing it to give the City Council that
information for them in their decision making process. How to work from the time line. When is
our meeting scheduled for? September 30th right? That before any specific action is taken by the
council on our submitted budget, that we would certainly have an opportunity at that point to
discuss with them the philosophy behind it. Hear their feedback and potentially request to make
15
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
any changes to better work in a cooperative effort with the council at that time, but I think at this
stage in the game I think it'd be beneficial for us to really stick to what we see as the philosophy.
...that might be coming out is the idea between new development and replacement and repair,
and also maintain some fiscal responsibility within the amount of income that we're likely to
generate on a yearly basis. Given that I'm going to throw it out to anyone who feelS...
Stolar: May I suggest that we put this on the table as a motion and then you can amend the
motion. Talk about how we finalize it. So I'd just like to move that we approve staff
recommendation. Put it out there on the table and then you can offer a friendly amendment.
Franks: I certainly go along with that.
Stolar: I move that we approve staff recommendation for 2003 Park and Trail Acquisition and
Development Capital Improvement Program:
Franks: Thank you. Is there any discussion to the.
Stolar: We need a second.
Franks: Yeah, is there a second?
O'Shea: I second.
Franks: Okay, the motion has been moved and seconded. I'll open it up then for discussion on
the motion.
Hoffman: Clarification on the dollar amount. The current staff motion is park dedication
$630,000...fund $263,000. The dollar amount for the thought process that all of Lake Ann
should come out of the general fund would put those numbers at 510 and 33.
Franks: Thank you Todd. Alright, Mr. Stolar's made a motion. It's been seconded. I've opened
it up for discussion on the motion. Are you open to a friendly amendment to your motion? One
that I would propose is that the entire funding for the Lake Ann Park roadway be shifted from 50
percent park dedication, 50 percent general fund to 100 percent from the general fund which
would then shift the figure that' s indicated by Mr. Hoffman with the total coming out of park
dedication to be $510,000. The remainder from the general fund of $383,000.
Stolar: I accept that amendment. And the second accepts that change?
Franks: Okay, great. We do have then a motion for consideration. We'll move the previous
question.
Stolar moved, O'Shea seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that
the City Council approve a 2003 Park and Trail Acquisition and Development Capital
Improvement Program totally $893,000 as detailed in the attached reports. All voted in
favor, except Happe who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1.
Franks: 5 for, 1 against. Dave, we'll give you the opportunity to state your objection for the
record to the motion.
16
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
Happe: I think Rod even with putting the remainder of the Lake Ann Park allocation into the
general fund, my sole opposition is that we are still submitting a total spending package to the
council that exceeds our projected income. While I do believe that we still have a revenue source
capable of covering park and trail objectives for 2003, I believe the proposal as moved still puts
us in a negative balance situation. And for that reason I am opposed to the motion.
Franks: So noted. Todd we'll indicate that the motion did carry 5 to 1. Thank you.
PROGRAM REPORTS: DAVE HUFFMAN 5K MEMORIAL RACE.
Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Franks and the rest of the commission. Tom and I did meet with the
rest of the 5K race committee this evening at 5:15. Going over many of the details for the race
coming up the 14t~ of September. Everyone's been kind of work around like little busy bees
lately trying to accomplish their portion of the commitment they've got for the race committee.
I' m going to...Todd talked about the kids fun run that was added this year. Tom is kind of
chairing that component or portion of the event so I'll let him explain that here briefly. We've
been working on that very hard and meeting, a lot of meetings with the Vikings, KFAN radio. I
don't know if anybody's heard our spot on the radio. KFAN came to us and Dan Seaman who
lives in town up in the Pheasant Hills area is the General Manager KFAN and a lot of other clear
channel stations in our area. He has run the race in the past and they did come to us last year with
a $2,500 donation in Dave's memory from KFAN. And then also a portion of...and wanted to
know if they could do some advertising for us on the radio. We gladly accepted their free spot
and they were running last week, the week before. Now we're going to have a little bit of a lull
period and then they' re going to start the week leading up to the event. Through that connection
with KFAN we're also going to have, it looks like some type of a KFAN public, or the Vikings...
Mike Morris. Superstar. It looks like he's going to lead the race...He did play with Dave kind of
on the tail end of D~ve's career and early to middle of Mike Morris' career so it' s been a real
jewel for us to kind of connect with those partnerships and it's been kind of a fun experience as
well so we're still hoping on right now, we've met with the Vikings several times now and
cheerleaders. We just don't know if there's going to, if they will be here. It certainly is our hope.
They kind of add, Ragnar' s very good with the kids last year with taking pictures and it' s our
hope that he is there to hand out the medals to the kids as they cross the finish line. The kids
portion of the event. That remains to be seen at this point. If not, we're going to go with Plan B.
So we' ve been very busy ordering tents and portable rest rooms and working with our street
superintendent Mike Wegler to ensure that there's safe streets out there...signs working with
Dave Potts, the Carver County Sheriff' s Department to ensure the same type of... We'll be
putting the signals on flashing red to slow traffic within the race route. We set out notification
letters to all of the residents that are affecting it along the race route and we're really hoping that
this is...versus an inconvenience at this point so. It's a real brief thing. It starts at 9:00 at Lake
Ann by, you know within an hour, typically everybody's out running the race so it's a real fun
festive event. Kathy Huffman and the kids.., are coming back again this year. We did confh-m
their plane tickets and they should have those. They're e tickets but they should be in their hands
so to speak at this point so they should come in Friday the 13t~ and leaving on Sunday afternoon
back to the Chicago area. So it's fun working with the race committee. Everybody seems to be
doing a great job... We're okay with volunteers at this point but we certainly could use some
more. Tom will ask you...but the shirts are at the printers fight now and we should be getting
those back hopefully by the end of the week or early part of next week. Those again are being
paid for by a donation solely for the shirt cost and then we have a very generous...Screen Printing
in Plymouth will do all the screening for free. So the shirts don't cost us any money and I think
we have a balance in that fund, or Dave Huffman Memorial fund of about $9,300 right now so...
fund balance into the next year. We're always looking for business help. We've had great
17
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
response from our community businesses in helping out with other donations...volunteers. It's
been a very well received event for our area. Knock on wood we'll have good weather again this
year so. Other than that I think we're about, I heard what 50 participants.behind last year but I'm
not all that concerned. Last year we had 100 some people register the day of the race and I know
that we will do that again this year so we're anticipating hopefully more runners but... Einstein's
will be doing bagels and...so great, great event. Any questions at all I can answer from the
commission?
Happe: How many volunteers does it take to pull this thing off?.
Ruegemer: 40 to 60. We have Boy Scouts help with the water stations...two places around
town .... with people actually yelling out times as the runners go by so they're kind of in sync
with their watches. When you have between the street department park maintenance workers,
Carver County Sheriff's department, and... '
Franks: Are you having us sign up for volunteering duties tonight?
Kelly: As far as the kids run go, we are having a kids run this year. It's flee. It's going to start
around 10:00 a.m.. It should be about the same time as the last runners are crossing the finish
line. It is a traffic friendly course. The kids will be running on sidewalks. The race will start, it's
going to be the parking lot by the sidewalk that parallels 101 approaching Highway 5. And
there's a trail cut-off on the right and they will run behind Houlihan' s. Take that boardwalk over
the pond, come out the other side of Houlihan's and make a right turn and head towards the finish
line. It's probably around a quarter to a half mile run. And as far as entertainment, New
Horizons has volunteered to put on some entertainment for the... They're not intending to be a
babysitting service but they are having a magician there just to keep the kids occupied. They'll
hand out goody bags for the kids and the finisher will receive a medal hopefully from...
cheerleaders as they cross the finish line. What I really need is volunteers. If anyone who isn't
running on the 14th, we really need people to help out with the kids race and I hope we'll have
people stationed at different parts throughout the route just to watch the kids and just to make
sure that it's a safely run race. It shouldn't take any more than 15 to 20 minutes so if anyone
wants to volunteer to come out on the 14th and help out with the kids run, it'd be very much
appreciated .... Shouldn't last more than 10-15 minutes.
Stolar: No, how...
Kelly: Probably between a quarter and a half mile.
Happe: Kids will register that day or pre-register...
Kelly: ...probably around 9:45 I'll start to round up the kids in the staging area and then if we
have a lot of kids, probably start them in waves. Have the older kids go first and then the younger
kids and hopefully it will be a good event. Hopefully it will bring out some adults that weren't
planning on running that maybe now they' 11 make it into a family event. Hopefully we' 11 get a
critical mass of kids that will allow us to continue this in the future.
Happe: Good idea.
Hoffman: The first volunteer at Highway 5...
18
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
Kelly: The boardwalk, I want to make sure because I don't want any of these kids slipping
through so we' 11 have a couple people on the boardwalk.
Franks: Can we get rid of the goose? Clean it off.
Kelly: I think we're going to clean up and pull out the weeds...
Franks: Good. Well that's a good way to get that done as well then. Well this event just keeps
getting better.
Hoffman: Commissions of the past have always talked about a race...and it's grown. Awesome.
Great to see.
Ruegemer: So if you can give your names to Tom tonight before you leave tonight.
Kelly: Yeah, I' 11 get that sheet of paper out, or I've got a good memory.
Franks: What time does the actual race start at?
Ruegemer: 9:00 a.m. out at Lake Ann Park.
Kelly: ...
Ruegemer: From Americlnn?
Kelly: Yeah.
Ruegemer: Quarter to nine-ish.
Franks: Please drive the last few people over. I remember the last couple years I've driven
people over. Okay, sounds wonderful. So I'm going to encourage everyone if you're here to
volunteer. I have had just a fantastic time volunteering at this event every year. This year I'm
going to run so I plan on doing some stuff beforehand and unless I'm completely exhausted so
we'll see but yeah. You can mark me down for filling in where I can afterwards. And you
certainly have my permission at this time to put everyone on the spot individually and...
Stolar: Is the children's going to start also at Lake Ann?
Kelly: No, not Lake Ann. That's going to start at, it will start and finish at the finish line. So
they' 11 start in the parking lot, start and end in the parking lot of Americlnn.
Franks: Alright. Well thank you Jerry.
Kelly: If you want to e-mail me if you can volunteer, that'd be great so I'm not panicked at...
ADMINISTRATIVE: COMMUNITY CENTER FocUs GROUP.
Todd Hoffman provided the update on the Community Center Focus Group.
Franks: Will this commission receive formal feedback from this focus group prior to information
going to City Council?
19
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
Hoffman: No. The council looks at this as a project...previous conversation was, they talked
about should we just have the park commission do this. And they said no, they wanted a broader
cross section than that... And then should they do a task force? No, they're not looking to do a
full blown task force. And so they're, this report is sent back to the City Council...and the
council had no problem with that last night.
Stolar: This charge statement, that was drafted by.
Hoffman: Drafted by staff based upon the previous conversation with the City Council at a work
session.
Stolar: It seems to me, by having our commission members on it, commission member
committee report, that's how we should get our update. But I would think that it would be
appropriate as an informational item, not necessarily an action item. I don't care if it is forwarded
faster, but around the same time as the council that we get the full briefing from our...
Hoffman: You bet. You'll also get the copy of the report in your administrative packet.
Stolar: So, is this how the type of things have been done in the past when we have representation
that they just present it through that.
Hoffman: ...just a different task...
Franks: Any other comments? Anything that keeps this moving forward is a positive step in my
opinion. We certainly want to support that.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORT. None.
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None.
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET.
Franks: Any comments on the administrative packet? No?
Kelly: I just have one ....goose program again next year for 2003? Or is that.
Hoffman: We put it in the budget. We skipped one year in the past 10 years and that resulted in
some additional outcry from primarily Lotus Lake or Minnewashta folks. They...
Kelly: I do think it's valuable given the dollars per goose, it's a pretty good program for the
area...
Hoffman: Valuable to those homeowners and so, but is it equitable, I'm not sure about that.
Atkins: I have a question about rental .... if somebody rents an area...
Ruegemer: ...those picnic facility sites are...6:00-7:00 in the morning on both Saturday and
Sunday morning.
Stolar: What about the maintenance issue? What was the situation there?
20
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 27, 2002
Ruegemer: That was a unique situation. All those lights are at, this is at Lake Ann in particular
and all those lights are on the timer. They come on... This was at 5:00-6:00 at night middle of
summer.' We had tornado sirens and stuff going on at that time. The regional softball tournament
going on at the same time, so that was kind of a unique situation where we shouldn't face that
very often.
Hoffman: They're on a timer, not a photo cell.
Ruegemer: They're on a timer.
Stolar: Part of that discussion was that they tried to call someone and they couldn't get a hold of
anybody.
Hoffman: It's going to be tough to find somebody on a Saturday.
Stolar: I guess they were under the assumption they would have the ability to get a hold of
somebody.
Hoffman: They kind of hoped that they could.
Ruegemer: ...but I was there. It was a unique situation that we would not encounter on a normal,
everyday weekend.
Stolar: From a safety perspective, is there a posting there? Is there a phone or a way for them to
get a hold of anybody for safety issues?
Hoffman: There's a phone there if they want to call 911.
Stolar: Okay.
Hoffman: Then dispatch calls a deputy and then they have a phone list on a variety of issues...
Franks: I did notice one thing on the Canadian geese, in the Figure 5 it says mean number of
Canada geese, and I' m wondering if that was meant to say number of mean geese because when
I'm running down by Lake Susan, they are scary sometimes and they are clogging the trail and
you know.
Hoffman: They want to protect their young.
Franks: Okay. Anything more?
Hoffman: Have you noticed the dead grass at Lake Susan? Along the trail. They've killed the
grass between the trail and Lake Susan from about the beach to the fishing pier, and that's part of
that planting program and Lori Haak, the Water Resource Coordinator will be approaching you as
potential volunteers to plant both aquatic and then the grasses and trees and plants outside of the
water, probably the end of September. It' s a DNR grant management program. Some of these
plants which are aquatic will be actually planted in the water...
Happe: ...public launching on lakes in Chanhassen? Like the dock facilities at Lake Susan for
example.
21
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - August 2'7, 2002
Franks: Are you talking about having like boat docking?
Happe: Yes.
Franks: Instead of just.
Happe: Either boat docking or even, I was just wondering if you've ever had this conversation
about more significant or better dock facilities. Not necessarily boat storage or docking them but
just maybe better access docks into the lake. I just didn't know if...
Franks: Only as it's arisen as a maintenance item so.
Hoffman: Lake Susan has never had an access dock. We could certainly budget for one. Lake
Ann does not have an access dock.
Happe: Well they have access ramps but not docks. It's just something that maybe doesn't need
to be addressed immediately but just something that we maybe should think about at some point.
Franks: You're talking about the dock after you land your boat, something to tie up to?
Happe: Yeah, and or you put your dock in and you either have to catch your dock going through
the water and get on your boat that way so we have the access ramps into the lake but we don't
really have a means to get on the boat without jumping in the water and...so just something that
we could look at at some point down the road.
Franks: It's certainly an amenity that'd be worthwhile. We have them at Lotus.
Hoffman: Just Lotus. It would be an embellishment I believe or.
Franks: Enhancement.
Hoffman: Enhancement. I like that word.
Franks: Okay, if there's no further corm~aents or discussion, I'll entertain a motion for
adjournment.
Stolar moved, Happe seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting.
All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
22