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CC Minutes 2000 07 24CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING JULY 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 6:3S p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Engel, Councilman Senn, and Councilwoman Jansen COUNCIL MEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Labatt STAFF PRESENT: Scott Botcher, Roger Knutson, Todd Gerhardt, Kate Aanenson, Cindy Kirchoff, and Todd Hof'knan APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Engel seconded to approve the agenda amended to add item 1 (k). Pre-consideration and Adoption of' Library Ref'erendum Resolution. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: a. Marsh Glen Subdivision, MSS Holdings, LLC~ 1) Final Plat Approval 2) Approval of` Development Contract & Construction Plans & Specifications, Project 00-6 b. Resolution #2000-S$: Receive Feasibility Study for BC-7 and BC-g Trunk Utility Improvements; Call for Public Hearing; Project 00-01. d. Set Public Hearing Date for Cable TV Franchise Applications, August 14, 2000 e. Approval of Bills. f. Approval of Minutes: · City Council Minutes dated June 26, 2000 · City Council Minutes dated July 10, 2000 · City Council Work Session Minutes dated July 10, 2000 Receive Commission Minutes: · Planning Commission Minutes dated June 20, 2000 · Park and Recreation Commission Minutes dated June 27, 2000 g. Resolution #2000-56: Accept Feasibility Study, Order Public Improvements; TH 5/West 78th Street, Project 97-6. City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 h. Approve Request for US West Cellular Tower at Bandimere Community Park. Resolution/12000-57: Approve Resolution Supporting Application to MnDot for a Limited Use Permit for the Construction of a Trail Adjacent to Highway 101 from Pleasant View Road to West 78th Street, Project 97-12-3. Site Plan Review for a 100,000 sq. ft. Office Warehouse Building (Data Link Corporation); Lot 5, Block 1, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 7th Addition; Located West of Upland Drive and North of Lake Drive West, Eden Trace Corporation. Resolution/12000-58: Approve New Resolution Ordering a Special Election of the Question of Issuing General Obligation Bonds and Approving the Official Ballot. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Councilwoman Jansen: And Madam Mayor, if you wouldn't mind, could we read for the record the new ballot language? Scott Botcher: Can I make, and I think it's a good idea. One thing, because you voted too fast. The amendment wasn't on. The very last word in the statement says public facilities. It should say purposes. Just so everyone doesn't get surprised by that. Mayor Mancino: Whereas the City Council has determined that it is in the best interest of the community to allow the electors to vote on whether or not to authorize the issuance of general obligation bonds. Now, Therefore be it resolved by the City Council of the City of Chanhassen, Minnesota: A special election on the same day as the State Primary election is hereby called for the 12th day of September, 2000 for the special purpose of submitting substantially the following questions to the electors. Shall the City Council of the City of Chanhassen, Minnesota be authorized to issue it's general obligation bonds in an amount not to exceed $6,000,000 for the purpose of the acquisition and betterment of a building to be used for a public library and for ancillary and related purposes. The form of the official ballot attached hereto is approved, provided the ballot form shall have such changes as are necessary to be in the form approved by the Rules of the Secretary of State. The ballot shall be titled "Library Referendum". 3. The City Clerk is directed to take all necessary steps to call the special election. The resolution dated July 20, 2000 entitled "Ordering a Special Election on the Question of Issuing General Obligation Bonds and Approving the Official Ballot" is repealed. Adopted this day by the City Council of the City of Chanhassen, Minnesota. And we also have a copy of the official election ballots which shall read Yes or No. Shall the City Council of the City of Chanhassen, Minnesota be authorized to issue it's general obligation bonds in an amount not to exceed $6,000,000 for the purpose of the acquisition and betterment of a building and to be used as a public library and for ancillary and related purposes? And then it says, Notice. By voting yes on this ballot question you are voting for a property tax increase. The maximum amount of increase levy as a percentage of market value City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 is .03397%. The amount that will be raised by the new referendum tax rate in the first year is to be levied is $540,750. Okay. Councilwoman Jansen: Thank you. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: FRIENDSHIP CITY RELATIONSHIPS, CHUCK GABRIELSON. Chuck Gabrielson: Thank you for allowing me to appear before the Council this evening. I'm going to be very brief because I know you have a lot of business to do this evening, and the reason that I'm here is in watching what has happened in a number of other communities in Minnesota, specifically Richfield, Roseville, Owattona and Northfield. I have found that they've established Friendship City relationships with cities in Costa Rica in Central America. Costa Rica is a First World country surrounded by Third World nations down there and was specifically appointed by the United States Chamber of Commerce as a country for Minnesota to form relationships with. I have, I've watched what has happened specifically in Richfield and the rich opportunities that have been presented for cultural exchanges, athletic exchanges, educational opportunities, foreign exchange students, right on down the line. And was thinking that this might be a real good opportunity for the City of Chanhassen to have such a venture. What I prepared for you is just a little bit of something to take a look at. I think that after 19 years of living here in Chanhassen I see that Chanhassen has been very open to a number of types of mind broadening and experiencial broadening opportunities and I would like you to seriously consider supporting this sort of an idea as a city, as the other four cities that I have mentioned have. There is currently a mechanism set up and organized by a man by the name of Tony Anderson. Some of you may be familiar with him. He's the son of former Governor Elmer L. Anderson. He was a former CEO of the H.B. Fuller Company and he's Minnesota's honorary counsel to Costa Rica and has played a very integral role in setting up these friendship city relationships and has volunteered to do such for the City of Chanhassen and play a major role in developing such a relationship. But I'd like you to take a look at this and would ask that if it looks like something that the City would be interested in, I have some suggestions as what some of the next steps might entail and I'm willing to put my shoulder to the wheel to see something like this pull off because I think I could see it as nothing but a plus for the City of Chanhassen. And I know there are a number of people who have been familiar with my efforts in lots of different things through the years and one of the things, someone asked why this? I said well I have 5 extra minutes, I had to find a new hobby. But I'm really, I think this would be a sensational thing for Chanhassen but really enjoy the opportunity to help pull it off for the city. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Great. Thank you very much Chuck. Any questions for Chuck from anyone? Has anybody been involved in another city in a friendship city relationship? Well, let us take your writings and we'll talk about it and maybe have you in during a work session discussion and ask you some more questions. Chuck Gabrielson: Sounds great, thank you much. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Councilwoman Jansen: Thanks for proposing it. Chuck Gabrielson: You bet. City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: Next item on the agenda. Oh, is there anyone else wishing to address the council? Vernelle Clayton: Thank you Nancy. I was invited here to help support an applicant a little later on in the meeting and I decided to kill two birds with one stone and also try to enlist your support on an endeavor. This being an endeavor being undertaken by the Chamber. It may not be, you may not even be aware of it. There appears to be a situation in downtown Chanhassen with the post office that is perceived by some to be a problem, and that is there is no mail delivery in downtown Chanhassen. There's no, so therefore there will be no mail delivery in the expansion of downtown Chanhassen, Village on the Pond. And for several years people have come to me and have said, what is this and they come to me because I lease space to them and then they call and say, well now Vernelle here I am. How do I get my mail? And I say oh, you have to run over to the post office, rent a box and then every morning you have to go over there and pick up your mail. And so I think the time probably has come when we probably should be perceived as having arrived as a city and perhaps we could work with the post office to get mail delivery. It also affects the industrial park, although there there are mailboxes, if you've noticed, set up. Sort of rows of mailboxes and then they all go to the mailboxes. But again they don't have it picked up. Northcott had a rude awakening when they opened their office and the best that the postman that delivers the mail, and they all do this. They deliver for a little while and they say, but you've got to get a mailbox set up. And the best he could offer, since they wanted it in the building, was that they built some kind of a chute so they could kind of put it in something and it would kind of shoot into the building, which they thought maybe that wasn't too good. But in any event, we're setting up a committee. This is something that we had to do when I first moved here. We didn't have delivery in the residential area either. And so now we need to work on downtown. Mayor Mancino: This is the year 2000. Vernelle Clayton: And you know, exactly. Exactly. And you know I may move sometime. But anyway, so we're setting up a committee. I think what we'll hear is that we are a designated rural post office and that's why we don't have any door to door people. So I suspect it will take literally probably an act, if not of Congress, by some Congressmen and/or Senators so this being an election year and Chanhassen being an area where you want to get a lot of votes, I think we might get some of those folks attention and so we're going to be pursuing that. After I learn a little bit more about it I'll come back to you and then maybe we'd like to have some, your support. Not necessarily going running around to the meetings but just liking the idea. Mayor Mancino: Great. Well thanks for filling us in on that. It's just still unbelievable but thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Any questions for Vernelle about what the Chamber is doing? So you'll come back to us and kind of give us an update and let us know what you're doing? Great, thank you. I think that probably City Hall would love to have their mail delivered to them. Vemelle Clayton: Really it would save a lot of money, not just for City Hall but if you added up the time and the people that pay their people to actually come here. Mayor Mancino: Yeah. Thank you. LAW ENFORCEMENT UPDATE: UPDATE FROM SGT. DAVE POTTS, CARVER COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT AND MARK LITTFIN, FIRE MARSHAL. Mayor Mancino: Hey, are you getting all ready for National Night Out? City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Sgt. Dave Potts: Hope so. Yeah, we should be set for that. Beth just stopped in to tell me she's worked up a pretty good schedule but still has some openings in case she gets a last minute neighborhoods calling in or something like that. We're getting set up for that. Good evening Mayor and City Council members. Item number 1 on my memo was the area call report. You might notice an increase in some of the areas that I mentioned earlier in the year as under the Tis the Season sort of framework. The vandalism and theft and those kind of things pick up in the summer months. June and July we've been getting hit pretty good with thefts from vehicles. You'll see a number of burglaries have occurred in June. Those have also come into July a little bit. Then as you get farther down here I have a bit of good news regarding those. The second is the area citation report and once again you've probably seen an increase in that from last month. A couple of things with the citation report .... on an overtime basis funded by a State grant to work specific for traffic violations and of course DWI. It's hard to get violations like that. You'll see a number of citations related to one of our officers working a couple of different of those shifts in Chanhassen. Along Highway 5 you might see a number of citations if you look down that report. Also our water patrol and park patrol are of course out and about now. There was a number of citations written at the Minnewashta Park, mainly parking violations. Again some of our standard water patrol violations have been coming in now. And I noticed there was a little string of parking citations over at Lake Ann Park. Parking on the grass and what not so that all kind of adds up to that large number of citations for the month. Item number 3 was a table that I made up just to kind of let the council know where that 44 hours of patrol comes from. As I think you've all been made aware, we had a lot of retirements and hiring and training and a lot of changes going on at the sheriffs office. And that table has looked a lot larger or maybe messier would be a better word but we've gotten several of our people trained in now. They're out working the streets on their own and filling up some of our holes in the office. Some of our holes on the road so it's kind of gotten to a little cleaner point so I wrote up this table that would kind of let you know. And I'll just briefly explain it a little bit. Team 1 and Team 2. All that is is Team 1 works on Team 2's days off and vice versa so they basically work the same schedules opposite days on and days off. At the top left there you'll see the first officer listed is Mike Douglas. It gives the officers name. The next, right next to the name is the badge number. Next to that kind of a highlighted fashion it says 10.25. That's the number of contract hours that officer logs down. We kind of consider our shifts 10 hour shifts. They're actually 10 and a quarter hour shifts. So for instance Mike it shows works from 6:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. It's actually 5:45 a.m. but I didn't want to break it down minute by minute so it shows then the shifts that the different officers work. Skipping down a little bit under the Team 1 there, you'll see Dan Meinz, 8.15. It says Sgt/Roving. 3.0. On both Team 1 and Team 2 we've assigned one of the roving sergeants to perform at least 3 hours of contract service in the city on their evening shifts, sometime between 4:00 p.m. and 2:00 a.m.. Typically they do that on the front end of their shift because that's when we have a little less coverage over here so they swing over to help pick that up. Then you'll see that my name appears under both Team 1 and Team 2. They work like 5 days on, 4 days off. 6 days on, 3 days off kind of rotating schedule of days on and days off. Whereas I work the standard Monday through Fridays so I cross over on both of those team cycles and days working and put in my standard shift although I don't really have a standard shift. It fluctuates. Then at the bottom of each where you see the officers names and a lot of X's across there. Those are some of the roving officers that work county wide and those officers may be assigned to a different district. If somebody would call in sick or you know some event like that were to come up. But in a perfect world at this moment in time, that's what it looks like. To kind of update this, even though this is kind of hot off the press. The sheriff just announced that two of our sergeants have been promoted to lieutenant so there's two spots to fill there and one of our sergeants, Dave Erbel, he's completing his last week of employment and he's retiring after many years of service with us so our hiring, training and what not will continue. So I thought that table might be of some interest to the council. City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: Sergeant Potts, so that means that most of the time we have 2 officers on duty during the daytime hours 8:00 to 3:00. 8:00 to 5:00. And then there's a couple hours there where we just have one on and then during that peak night time we always have 2 on. Sgt. Dave Potts: Correct. That's an overlap. We call it, we break our shifts down and call it a day shift starts at 6:00 a.m. A day power starts at 8:00 a.m. Then our mid shift or what we call our p.m. shifts starts at 4:00 p.m. to 2:00 a.m. and then our overnight or our dog watch starts at 8:00 p.m. so that 8:00 p.m. to 2:00 a.m. we've got those cars over lapping shifts that gives us some extra coverage there. Mayor Mancino: And when do we get our peak calls? I mean are they, I mean obviously. Sgt. Dave Potts: It's generally that later evening into the night time. I think on that monthly call report it kind of breaks down some of the times, and they've done that on an annual basis as well to try to see when our, when a lot of our calls come in. And it does fluctuate some but that evening area is specifically when we have most of our people on county wide. And when we're most busy at that point in time. Under miscellaneous items. As I mentioned, we had our seasonal increase in thefts from vehicles and that type of thing. A little more seriously, I had mentioned in the past they like to get into cars that are unlocked. We've had a number of vehicles where they've smashed the windows to get into the cars and rifle through them. We've had a car stolen from Redwing that was abandoned at Carver Beach missing a stereo and cell phone. In that particular case the keys were under the seat of the vehicle. It's one of the things we try to educate people on to leave those kind of important items in your car. We also had a stolen auto from Excelsior that was found in Chanhassen and that was missing and some tires and a stereo and what was first reported as an illegal dumping at Lake Ann Park turned out to be items from a stolen pick-up truck that the people who stole it dumped stuff from the pick-up truck out at Lake Ann. A topper and some miscellaneous items that were in the pick-up that they've had no more use for apparently. We have had some burglaries occurring in June, first part of July. And I noticed a couple of attempted residential burglaries where people have found a door pried on or a window pried on. Something like that. The good news is that just recently Detective Roach, one of the officers that I introduced to the council previously, executed a search warrant in Chanhassen and recovered property. Has identified suspects, some adults, some juvenile, and we have not yet wrapped this case up but property was recovered from involving these stolen autos. Involving some burglaries. Involving some thefts from autos so hopefully we have some arrests coming from that. Not all the suspects have been located at this point in time though so that's still ongoing but a piece of good news there. On our July 3rd and 4th events, we had one arrest at the July 3rd dance. A gentleman that had a little too much to drink and kind of got disorderly on us, but according to Todd Hoffman, had outstanding participation at the event. It was an overwhelming crowd so to have one incident at a situation like that is a very good piece of news. One arrest over at the fireworks. They were selling glow sticks. Had some folks selling glow sticks. Somebody grabbed a handful of glow sticks and took off running but was apprehended. Mayor Mancino: That's the worse it gets. Sgt. Dave Potts: The 3 inch gas line cut over 78th and Powers area. You're probably all aware that that took place and other than the gas line being cut, no other harm occurred from that. That was handled quickly and very well. And under it could have been worst. The BMW in the pond, a short driver education story. Mayor Mancino: What was that? City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Sgt. Dave Potts: This is a note for all parents. In case you were to buy a new sports car, be careful who you allow to take it for a drive. They may decide to find an isolated spot behind an industrial business and see how fast they can go around a comer and misjudge their speed and end up in a pond. It does happen. Under the same you know it could have been worse. A little more serious. Just this evening we had a pedestrian accident over in the area of Great Plains and Chan View. An 11 year old girl was hit by a car and what was reported to me was that she was not injured. Was not transported to the hospital. Came out certainly as a personal injury accident but all was well there. Very slow speed collision from the driver of the car. Little more serious but again could have been worse. Came out of that one real well. Mayor Mancino: You know about some of these burglaries and the car thefts that you've been saying. I'm assuming like during National Night Out when the deputies go to the different neighborhoods, they'll be letting the neighborhoods know what's been happening and what they should be looking for. Sgt. Dave Potts: Yeah, that's part of the program to let the neighborhood know what National Night Out is all about. And the other piece is bring it right down to the local level. What's occurring in Chanhassen and if we have some particular information for that neighborhood, what has occurred in that neighborhood. Kind of let people know as part of the program. Mayor Mancino: Good. Well I also want to thank, oh I'm sorry. Councilman Senn: I also noticed that when you were talking about activity overall burglaries are down from last year and robberies the same. Sgt. Dave Potts: Yeah. Councilman Senn: So no increase since then. Sgt. Dave Potts: Yeah, it's not like we're having an unusual rash but it's, at this one point in time this year we're having a little rash but not that we're anything extremely unusual. They come through an area you know Chanhassen as they do and everybody else's area. Mayor Mancino: I've also noticed the speed strips all over so now when I see them I stop my car and go very slowly over them. But you must, are you collecting data to have now on all of our local streets so when someone calls for Project Leadfoot or something, that you can say here's what we've been monitoring on your street? Sgt. Dave Potts: I collected some streets just based on my own selection. I want certain streets to get checked with those assessment devices. And also from some of the complaints we've had come in and that we may be looking at Project Leadfoot for some of these other areas so we're getting some of that assessment data collected. To be used not only now but in the future. The last item I have for the council is my traditional, or has become a little traditional, deputy intro. Mayor Mancino: Oh great. Yeah, you have to come forward. Sgt. Dave Potts: Under the heading of new officers, this is Deputy Pete Anderly. I think I've mentioned that we have lost a couple of officers. One officer went to the State Patrol and another officer went to the St. Paul Police Department. It's that type of thing in the law enforcement profession where we're looking for people, but so are a lot of the other departments so some steal from us and we steal from others. We City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 were fortunate enough to steal Deputy Pete Anderly from Wright County where he worked for a short time before coming to them from Lonsdale where he was a police officer for 3 years. Pete is one of our newer officers just recently completed field training and he's out there on the street now working on your table there that I gave you as Team 2 on the day power shift, along with Deputy Robbins. So again just brought him along to put that name to a face. Mayor Mancino: Well welcome. Welcome very much to Chanhassen. Pete Anderly: Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Enjoy having you here and just keep us safe. Sgt. Dave Potts: Anything else? Mayor Mancino: No. Any other questions? Thank you very much. Councilwoman Jansen: Thank you very much. Mayor Mancino: Moving forward on the agenda. Oh, I'm sorry Mark. Didn't mean to do that to you. It says John so you know. Mark Littfin: Oh. John's got training going tonight. I'll just hand out, just a 6 month report. The different calls we've been on in regards to medicals and car scenes and fire alarms and it gives you a little feel for what we're doing out there right at present. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Mark Littfin: While you're looking at that, just some updates in the fire department. Our calls year to date are 13 down from last year, and they're down 40 from 1998 so in the last 2 years we've gone down a total of 53 calls. Last couple years we were higher in weather related calls and this year we just haven't been out but maybe a couple times with storm calls so, but the weather's been cooperating very well for us this year for getting called out. We have been busy on the other hand with mutual aid calls. We've been over to Eden Prairie 3 times. Most recently was a house last week that was abandoned that pretty much burned to the ground. We helped them haul water in there. We were at the hotel fire 2 or 3 weeks ago. We were there for about 8 hours with our crews and apparatus so, we've been moving over there quite a bit. And then previous to that they had a warehouse fire in the afternoon. We brought a couple crews over there and helped them out. We were at Chaska last week. They had a chemical spill in an industrial building so our Haz Met group went down to help handle that. And Excelsior, they've had a couple of house fires so we're looking at putting signs on our trucks, serving Excelsior and Eden Prairie and surrounding communities so, that's a standing joke going around there now. Mayor Mancino: We've got to charge them. Mark Littfin: They come over here once in a while. Currently we are, I think the meeting's just wrapping up but because of the two recent drownings at Lake Ann, we're pursuing the possibility of enforcing our dive team to see if we have members that are interested in that. We'd be gearing up for rescue, not necessarily recovery so we're starting some planning and training as far as that's concerned. We have a probationary group of fire fighters that have started up in the last couple of weeks. They go to training not City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 only on Monday nights but also on Wednesday nights. We're doing our own in-house fire fighter I class. Greg Hayes is doing that and we're also doing it for surrounding fire departments. They can send their fire fighters over. They take a State certified test. A third party test and they've had very, very good results coming out of that so we're offering it at whatever cost we incur for books and fuel and that kind of stuff so we have very good comments from the departments regarding that. Last Thursday we were at a meeting which was at Minneapolis training facility and recently council signed an agreement for a mutual aid allowing, or including Minneapolis into our Southwest Fire League. And we have the option with working down at their training facility. They're adding a lot ofhaz met training sites so we're excited about getting down there and doing some training with Minneapolis. They can put the training on for us and it's a first class facility when they get this thing up and running so we're excited about that. We had an Edina Fire out recently. Edina Fire is specializing in technical rescue, such as high angle rescue, confined space so if we have an incident, if we have an incident in our water tower and it's above our capabilities, we can call on Edina and they can assist us as well if we had the mutual aid in Minneapolis, if the big, big one hit but. But we can use Edina. We're training tonight with Minnetonka. They're down on, as we speak they're down on Lake Susan. We had a house that a gentleman bought and the city collapsed the house today and Minnetonka specializes in building collapse so they are training right now as we speak, and Greg had invited Chaska to come up and also see how they work out. We've been doing some work with Shakopee. They have a very established dive team and they were used on our, the second drowning and also they were utilized for the recovery operation that found the gentleman in the night so we're doing a lot of training with resources around us. Upcoming events. Fire department participating in the city's safety camp in August for 2 days. We'll have our annual open house in the fall, so we're busy with those planning stages. As far as fires and the investigative stages, Greg is a network with other fire marshals and fire inspectors, investigators in the area and they get together once in a while. There seems to be a rash of satellite fires, not only in our city but Shakopee and surrounding. And most recently we've had a couple of houses under construction that have had some small fires set so we're working with the sheriff's office with the detectives to try to see if we can solve those arson fires. Other than that, all is well. Mayor Mancino: Good. Good, good, good. Great, any questions for Mark? Councilwoman Jansen: No questions. Thanks for coming. Mark Littfin: Sure. So if you get done early and you want to see what we do for building collapses, we're just south of town here a little ways so. Mayor Mancino: South on 101 or? Mark Littfin: South on 101. It's the old Francis Klein house. Mayor Mancino: Sure, okay. Thank you. Thanks for coming. CONSIDER AN AMENDMENT TO THE CITY CODE ALLOWING PETTING FARMS AS AN INTERIM USE IN THE A2, AGRICULTURAL ESTATE DISTRICT; AND REQUEST FOR AN INTERIM USE PERMIT TO OPERATE A PETTING FARM IN THE A2 DISTRICT, 7461 HAZELTINE BOULEVARD, SUSAN MCALLISTER. Cindy Kirchoff: Thank you. The applicant is requesting a zoning ordinance amendment to operate a petting farm on property zoned A2. Currently the zoning ordinance does not permit this type of activity. Staff does support the idea of a petting farm, and has prepared standards that address such issues as City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 minimum acreage, setbacks, number of employees, type of animals that are permitted and prohibited. And also retail sales activity. And just a note, we did survey other communities to see what they had in terms of ordinances for this activity and none were found. Just a side note. Staff believes that a petting farm should be permitted as an interim use only. So a termination date can be established. The A2 district is essentially a holding zone for urban development. In particular in this area it is, it will be brought into the MUSA area zone and municipal services will be available next year. The Planning Commission did review this item on three occasions. The last one was on June 6th when they held the public hearing. They unanimously approved the approval of the, unanimously recommended approval of the zoning ordinance amendment with three changes in staff's standards. The first was, they recommended that 3 employees be permitted rather than the 1 that staff had proposed. And also they recommended that we eliminate the exclusion of wild and exotic animals and change it to dangerous animals shall be prohibited. Mayor Mancino: Is that reflected in the conditions of approval on page 15 and 167 Cindy Kirchoff: No it is not. Mayor Mancino: It's not? Okay. Cindy Kirchoff: They also recommended that we change the definition of petting farm, and that's on page 3 of your staff report. Again, noting that non dangerous animals will be at the petting farm. In terms of the interim use permit, they did recommend approval by a vote of 4 to 1. They recommended that the permit be extended from 5 years that staff had proposed to 7 and we don't have any issues with that so we have changed that in the conditions of approval. Since the Planning Commission meeting staff had become aware of a septic system problem at the subject site. The system has failed and a condition of approval is such that the system must be brought into compliance and also meet the needs of the additional users that will be on site once this activity does commence. Staff does recommend approval of the zoning ordinance amendment with the standards that I handed out earlier, with the change to number 3. And the interim use permit with the standards that are in the staff report. And just to note that, in order for the zoning ordinance amendment to be approved we do need four votes out of the five council members. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you very much. Teresa Burgess: Madam Mayor and council members, ifI could just add one item. Dave Hempel and I spoke this afternoon on the matter of the septic system. We are anticipating that sanitary will be in place in approximately 1 year, 18 months when the Puke Homes development is completed. Our ordinance currently requires that they connect within 12 months. In this case we would recommend that it be treated similar to the properties on Kings Road which were in a similar situation years ago. They were required under the normal ordinance to connect but we waived that in the interest of getting a septic system upgraded and then they were required to submit bi-annual reports of the maintenance records and inspection of that septic system, when the septic system failed they were required to connect instead of the normal 12 months. Mayor Mancino: So help me. I have a couple questions, if you don't mind and other council members can ask staff. Timing wise. Teresa you had said that MnDot. MnDot. Not the City of Chanhassen will not allow the expansion of the use on this property until West 78th Street is a functioning road? Can you explain that you know, and can you, so everyone can hear. Can you hear Teresa back there? Susan, can you hear Teresa? Okay. I just wanted to make sure. 10 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Teresa Burgess: What MnDot will not allow is intensification of the driveway use so the use of the property could be changed but they can't intensify the use of the driveway without a permit from MnDot. And MnDot has stated they won't, they don't want to see that driveway intensified. They don't want to see it used consistently for a higher use. Mayor Mancino: So that if the applicant wants to, the applicant can talk to MnDot or submit something to MnDot to allow them to intensify the driveway use. Obviously MnDot has told you no, that they won't but the applicant can go ahead and submit something to MnDot requesting intensification of the driveway use. Teresa Burgess: Right, and that would be between the applicant and MnDot. Mayor Mancino: So that is between the applicant and MnDot. The City doesn't have any jurisdiction over that. So I want to make sure that the applicant understands that. Secondly, as in regards to sanitary sewer. You must hook up to the new sanitary sewer when it becomes available, which will be within 12 to 18 months and between now and that time period when sanitary sewer is available to you, you may talk to Teresa. I'm going to say that, and know exactly what you have to do for this year, year and a half. Between that dates. Teresa Burgess: Actually what I would recommend instead Mayor is that we treat this one similar to the Kings Road one in which case we waived that 12 month requirement. Normally they're required to hook up within 12 months of the sewer being available but she does have, I'm not sure if it's a failing septic system or if it's nearly failing but, it is failing? Kate Aanenson: Yes. Teresa Burgess: So we want that taken care of as soon as, it's a large cost to install a new septic system. Mayor Mancino: So should that be a condition of approval tonight? Teresa Burgess: It should be added as a condition so she doesn't have to come in later for a variance. Mayor Mancino: Could you please, as we're going through this, write up what you think we should be recommending and doing? Teresa Burgess: Certainly. Mayor Mancino: As one of the conditions of our approval and we can then review that with the applicant when she's up here too. Okay. If you could do that, that would be helpful. More questions? Councilman Senn: Yeah on the septic system. I was really curious, and maybe this is a question for the applicant rather than you but what, are the facilities basically going to be in the house and those are going to be the public facilities? Teresa Burgess: I'm not sure what accommodations are being provided for the public but the existing septic system is failing and that is only serving what's there now. It undoubtedly will get worse as they have an increased usage. Kate Aanenson: Can I address that question? 11 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Senn: Yeah. Kate Aanenson: The building official did address that. Yeah, there needs to be two restrooms for public facilities based on the amount of traffic anticipated. That's one of the questions that's still unresolved. They need to provide public facilities and whether that system can manage it. As Teresa has indicated, in the past we have allowed when someone puts an investment in for a new one, that even though it's coming through, they've already made the investment a year or two ahead of time. That we would allow them to continue to use that. But there is a condition in the staff report that was addressed by the building official that they have to provide public facilities and yes, that would be accommodated if she can design it such through her septic system. Councilman Senn: Okay, and those will need to meet handicap accessibility and all that sort of stuff? Kate Aanenson: Yep, and the building official's addressed that in the conditions. Councilman Senn: Okay so, has there been any discussion of, especially given the timing on this and the short term nature of the improvements coming in and all that sort of thing. I mean here's the reason for my question I mean, if you're going to get into providing those kinds of facilities, you're going to do it in the existing residence, they're going to meet handicap accessibility and everything, you're talking about big time dollars in improvements I mean given, plus on top of that you have a failing septic system which may be able to get by you know for a little while based on the existing situation but not a long term situation. Why don't you go to something like satellites or something like that with handicap accessibility and that sort of thing to meet your requirements until something permanent could be put in place? I mean it just seems to me it was... Kate Aanenson: No, I think that's a good question and I think that as part of the feasibility she'll have a number to look at. Whether or not it's cost effective to connect now or to provide the services. She has provide, the applicant has provide the facilities for the use. So there is two ways to accomplish it but what's Teresa's saying is that if she chooses to use the septic system option, then we would waive that. Certainly as those numbers would become available as that second feasibility is. Teresa Burgess: And actually the sanitary system that's going to be available will be with the development of the property adjacent to her home. It's not part of the BC-7, BC-8 feasibility study that was received this evening. It's actually a developer that's proposing to come in and she would be able to access off of that system and we would then be within the 300 feet designated by ordinance as availability. She's too far away from BC-7, BC-8... Councilman Senn: Well cost prohibitive based on. Kate Aanenson: The length. Teresa Burgess: The distance. Councilman Senn: Okay. Being a lot more expensive than putting in a new septic system. Teresa Burgess: Certainly. 12 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Senn: Okay. But the existing septic system, if they would choose an alternative, even though it's failing, would probably handle this current load for a while? Teresa Burgess: No. Going back to the report, the system has failed. It's not even serving the home as it exists now. Councilman Senn: Okay. Alright. Mayor Mancino: Any other questions? Councilman Senn: Not at the moment. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. Is the applicant here and would you like to address the council? Yeah, please move the mic and be comfortable. Susan McAllister: Madam Mayor and City Council members, my name is Susan McAllister. I am the applicant. And I have got different information to show and some photographs and so on but I would like to give a little bit of a speech before that point. By saying the City has high expectations of me as a business person. The best comes with a price. The best cost money, you know the looks of the business, the safety of the buildings, the ground maintenance, animal care, etc. I also have high expectations as a business owner from the city. I am located at the doorway of the west gateway on the comer of Highway 41 and what is to become West 78th Street. I expect to give a superb presentation to my customers. Something Chanhassen will be proud of and no less I will take no less than that. I might not be on the correct side of the road for all that I want to do but I am where the barn is and has been since the 1920's. It could have been so simple if the barn were just a bit further south towards Highway 5 or if we had just simple moved the road just a bit further north, then it would have been in just the right spot for what I want to do. Let me ask you, when prospectors discovered gold or other mineral veins, do they not build their mines around what they have discovered and where they have discovered it? Surely they do not build a mine first and then hope there is gold in it. They go to it. It does not come to them. I feel I have a little piece of gold and I wish to preserve it. A page from history that is about to be ripped out of the books forever. I cannot give up my farm for no price. It is a wonderful peaceful place to bring children and adults alike, especially the senior citizens who really appreciate a page out of their memory book. If but only for an hour or so it brings to them peaceful memories of their childhoods and their way of life. Some even get twinkles in their eyes when they talk to me about their days on a farm and how nice it is to experience that feeling again. I have cared for my animals for many years and for the last 6 years I have shared it with the people at the farm. I have come before you today because I want to be a legal business within the city. And also because I am not running from development. I need protection with development coming in from you the city. And I want the city's blessing also. IfI believe in something this strongly I say to you tonight, let's work it out. I believe it can happen. I always wanted to be a pioneer woman and I thought I had missed my calling, but this is a new frontier. It's funny how history repeats itself. I'm sure the pioneers of Chanhassen said the same thing 100 years ago. This is a new frontier, let's make a go of it. When I think about, I hadn't realized that we've come so far away from what this township was when my family first settled here in 1959. Me being from northeast Minneapolis area, I hated it. All there was was farms, green fields, and millions of trees, and more so than anything it was peaceful and I was just not very appreciative of that. I would promise myself that when I grew up from being the 9 year old that I was at the time, I was going to leave and go where the action was. Well I grew up and I felt just as I had promised myself. I left. But one day I came back looking for a place to settle down in because you know what? Chanhassen isn't so bad. Especially when I see how it's grown from what it was, my roots are here. I 13 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 believe in blooming where I am planted. So please help me today. Let's make history to a point. Let's put a farm inside the city forever. I have plans on putting in an enormous amount of money to make this endeavor work for myself in the city. I am at the west gateway. I am asking each of you today to make history. Let me have a conditional use permit. Let me be on the same level playing field as your other businesses. I have asked for a conditional use permit since February and I really am trying still to get that. I need to recoup the enormous amount of money I will be sinking into Miss Rosie's Farm and I want to recoup it from, and I will not recoup it from simply admission fees. I would need to sell it, and what's so bad about that anyway? If your ordinance works for me, then it should work for everybody else that comes in or whoever else I might choose to sell it, if I do. We certainly shouldn't be ashamed of what our roots were founded upon so I ask you tonight very simply, do you want Miss Rosie's Farm? If not, then allow only interim use and that would be your polite way of saying you do not want me but I really wish to stay here forever. Are there any questions of me? Mayor Mancino: Any questions for Sue? At this point. Councilwoman Jansen: I actually had one, just as I was looking at your business and I don't know if you're going farther with your presentation. I think you said you had pictures. Susan McAllister: Yeah, I do have pictures. Councilwoman Jansen: I can wait until you're through with your presentation. Susan McAllister: Okay. Well, alright. I will just show some of the area where the parking will be. It's going to be looking from the south going north. Mayor Mancino: Can we get it up on the camera or not? Kate, do you want to help Sue and figure that out. If it's big enough. Susan McAllister: The parking will be behind this here. Behind, you know behind these trees here. Mayor Mancino: Sue, excuse me. Where are you looking from? Susan McAllister: I'm looking from an area south of the parking lot... I'm on the south side of where the road would be. West 78th Street. I'm right, I'm standing right where West 78th Street would be. Mayor Mancino: Got it. Susan McAllister: And there was something said about me taking out trees or like a big canopy of trees but really I'm not...but I'm only going to have to take out these 2 trees here and it does show...but it's part of another canopy so if I could figure out a way to not take them out I wouldn't take them out because I love trees but there's no possible. Because the parking lot is going to be there. It would be...and there's my worker standing here and you can see his body up there but now you see his head in the.., little bit away and I just wanted to clarify where that was and... Mayor Mancino: Is that on the north side towards the wetland? Susan McAllister: Yes. So I'm finished. 14 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: Is the manure there right now with the pictures that were taken? Susan McAllister: Yes. Mayor Mancino: I mean I expected to see a big pile of manure. Susan McAllister: No. I know how to make it go into compost, believe me. Okay, I'm going to give you some maps of the area. Mayor Mancino: Would you please walk us through the map? Susan McAllister: Okay. You know I don't know how good the color is there but the area shown in the lighter green area is my property and it butts up with the headwaters of the Bluff Creek Watershed. Kate Aanenson: Can I just make a point of clarification? There's two different properties. I don't know if you can discriminate that but not all this is her property. Susan McAllister: I said that the lighter section. Kate Aanenson: It's hard to see the colors. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, can you just go through that with your. Susan McAllister: Oh okay, over here? Mayor Mancino: Yeah. Just show us so we can put it. Susan McAllister: Okay. This, see the light area. And this is...headwaters of the Bluff Creek. And then let's see here. I'm just showing where that trail.., and show you that the.., activity, the level of activity, there's a lot of green buffer area, okay. So the pink circle happens to be where the pony rides are... The little purple rectangle is the retail store. Then the summer kitchen would be the blue, the little blue area. And that's just like an 8 by 10... The yellow area is the barn, and then the green area is the brown, you know the... Mayor Mancino: Susan, mind ifI ask a few questions as we go? Susan McAllister: No. Go ahead. Mayor Mancino: The yellow barn is existing. Susan McAllister: Yes. Mayor Mancino: Then you also have your house which is existing. Susan McAllister: As far as I know today it is. Mayor Mancino: And your, just for clarification, the retail store, the pony rides and, are all in an open space already, correct? I mean it's like the woods that you're going to have to cut or anything? 15 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Susan McAllister: No. The retail store is the garage actually. Mayor Mancino: Is the existing garage, okay. And the pony ring is going to be open. What about the summer kitchen? Is that in an open area already as far as non-forested, etc? Susan McAllister: Yes. It's right actually close to the house. You know there's no trees being taken down to put any of this in whatsoever. And the little summer kitchen I don't have yet. I'm trying to get it from an area that's about to be taken down in Chanhassen so I'm trying to work that out. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Any other questions that people have? Councilmembers have to orient yourself on Sue's property. Thank you. Susan McAllister: An article that appeared in actually the Chanhassen Villager was.., was looking at something else that happened at the same time I was coming before the Planning Commission and I clipped it out of there. It talks about the Minnesota Zoo has actually built a farm that's on 8 ½ acres. And I think they put in...to build a new farm which has a petting zoo attached to it. So basically if you want to take a few minutes to just look that over. I don't know if everybody's familiar with that farm that they built at the zoo. Mayor Mancino: They had it on the nightly news too. Susan McAllister: Mine isn't you know like obviously an authentic one and you know the buildings are there and they need to be maintained and that's an enormous expense of money. But I believe in doing something right instead of trying to piecemeal something together for a period of time over and over again. So what I'm saying is that I'm going to putting, my goal or my plan was to put in a nice area to upgrade the barn is one and I can't justify it. I really can't justify it with the 7 year interim use. And I was hoping today to get what I applied for which was the conditional use permit or at least, if nothing else, ask for 7 years to be, to ask if you could go from 7 to 10 years. And you know, but in another 2 years though I plan on coming before you and asking for a conditional use permit once I prove myself that I have a manageable business because I know for myself that I can manage my business but nobody has been there to see it so I can't prove it to anybody. So I'm saying in 2 years, if I can prove to you that I can manage that business and it's a manageable business, then I'm asking you today, I'm telling you today that I want to come before you with a conditional use permit at the minimum that way but I really would hopefully get one tonight. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Susan McAllister: So I guess, do I go through this, or does anybody have any questions anymore? Mayor Mancino: Any more questions for Sue at this point? Councilwoman Jansen: I was just trying to get a feel for the activity on the property, and I guess the sense that I was getting from reading your information and questions asked by the Planning Commission and our chatting, it sounds like you would be running this much the same as, and I'm asking, much the same as like the Lowry Nature Center does out in Carver Park as far as the school groups that would be coming in. I know that every day of the school year that they're in session, Lowry ends up with a school booking their facility where they end up coming in with a bus or two full of kids with an adult chaperones and they 16 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 participate in the activities that exist out there around the nature center. So is that where you're going is that when school is in session, that's your focus? Susan McAllister: Well I do want to have, definitely educational programs for children. I plan on educating them to the different animals and so on, and teaching them responsibility and stewardship and so on and so forth. It's a very non-violent form of you know an activity that children need to know about. But yes, I don't see my farm being like boisterous and loud with kids running all over the place. If you even go to the zoo, which I haven't been to for years, I believe that children actually walk around and they're looking and they're you know, their parents are telling them things and they're listening and I think that's, you know it's not going to be as loud as a park because that was brought up. Is it going to be as loud as a park? I do not believe so. There's going to be controlled activities. I mean kids cannot run around because if they do then the animals get scared and I tell them that in the beginning. You know that you have to respect them. You have to respect them and some of them are in their natural habitat and you can't touch some of them but a lot of them you can. Councilwoman Jansen: That's the way it is out at the center too. It's amazing how kids will stay under control with at least a chaperone or two around. Susan McAllister: Right. I mean the attention span only lasts about an hour but yeah I mean when they're listening then they're listening you know, and learning. Councilwoman Jansen: And within your original request you were looking for facilities to be able to park not just one bus but two. Was that because of classes or? Susan McAllister: Yeah. I just you know, I know that there are sometimes where some classes will say well we'd like to have two buses so that is what my original request was. Was to have, you know the more parking and I believe I asked for two buses. If I didn't, that was an oversight. I really should have, and what I'm going to ask to be redone is to say either, what I'm asking for tonight is 20 parking sports or 2 buses or 10 parking spots and 1 bus. Or any combination of that. Because I really feel that I might need more for like another bus at one time. Councilwoman Jansen: So conceivably, and I think I heard you say if it was 20 parking stalls and 1 bus, you were thinking if2 buses came in, 1 of the buses could park in the parking lot, is that what you're saying? Susan McAllister: Yeah. I'm trying to work that out. I don't want to have a massive parking lot, which I don't need. I have nothing to base this on, do you see what I'm saying. This is all you know, like what I've thought would happen with the time that I've been doing it. But I've been having to stay very low key so I don't have information to base this on. Councilwoman Jansen: I just wanted to be clear as to exactly what you were still needing and the use. I'm not imaging that you're going to have school kids there during the week at the same time you're going to have public present. That public more so would be there on weekends and vacations. Susan McAllister: Well actually during the week though children do come to facilities to learn things. Their day cares and their classes and you know schools like Bluff Creek and all the schools around, they just, they're loving every bit of it and they're hoping that this is something that they can come to so. 17 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilwoman Jansen: Well I know they all take advantage of the nature center out there so I'm sure you'd have that draw. Okay, I appreciate it. I was just trying to get a feel for if we were talking about the same sort of a situation. It sounds like it. Susan McAllister: We are. I guess like I tried the best I could to predict something and you know, I mean all you can do is just try. You don't really have anything to base it on. It's just thoughts you know. Close as I can come. Mayor Mancino: It's all new business. Susan McAllister: Can I say that I also, do I get to go through some of these points here that I need, that I have a problem with? Mayor Mancino: Can you wait for a minute and see if there are any more questions? Susan McAllister: Okay. Mayor Mancino: Any other questions from council members to Sue at this point? Okay. Susan McAllister: Well I really want, okay. Councilman Engel: Are we on page 2? Mayor Mancino: Are you going over the recommendations? Where are you Sue so we can follow. Susan McAllister: I always get mixed up on this thing so. Councilman Engel: The top left of the page for page number. Susan McAllister: What page number? I'm not on any specific, I'm on page 2 1 guess you know. Okay. Okay it says three full time equivalent non-resident or contract employees may be employed on the site per 5 acres. I originally requested 5 and as far as I know, they would be part time but when I need people, I need people. And I really would be in a bind if I would say oh my. You know here I've got these people and I've got these animals but I have, you know I'm only allowed to have 3 people. What am I going to do? Mayor Mancino: 3 full time equivalent. So that could be 12 people. It's equivalent. Susan McAllister: Oh it can be, okay. Well then maybe I don't have a problem with that. Maybe I don't have a problem with it. Councilman Senn: You understand what full time equivalent is, don't you? Susan McAllister: I don't know. Councilman Engel: 120 employee hours a week. 18 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Kate Aanenson: We're going through the Planning Commission recommendations. I think for clarity it'd be best to go to page 11 where the staff's recommendation is so we're clear. Susan McAllister: Alright, so page 11. Alright. Kate Aanenson: The recommendations start on I believe page 11. Mayor Mancino: I think they start on 15. The recommendations start on page 15. Cindy Kirchoff: Or if you go to page 6. Mayor Mancino: Pardon? Councilman Engel: We're all over the board here. Mayor Mancino: Where are the recommendations that we're supposed to approve? Councilman Senn: On all the pages that have been mentioned so far. Roger Knutson: Do you need to refer to the ordinance? Mayor Mancino: Refer to this one. Susan McAllister: Refer to that one? Mayor Mancino: Okay. Everybody get this one. Roger Knutson: This says one full time equivalent. Kate Aanenson: Right. Mayor Mancino: So let's take some time here. Okay. On Section 1 it would be number 3. First of all the following conditions will apply to a petting farm. I assume you're fine with 1 and 2. Number 3 is only one full time equivalent. Well the site must also be used as a residence. I would not think you had a problem with that. Susan McAllister: No, I don't have a problem with that. Mayor Mancino: Only one full time equivalent, non-resident employee will be employed on this site per 5 acres. One full time equivalent is 40 hours per week of whomever it is working there. Susan McAllister: I need more than that because I almost use that now. And I'm not even open officially. Mayor Mancino: Okay. What was the Planning Commission was fine with 3. So 3 times 40 is 120 hours, right? Councilman Senn: That's not right. 19 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: Okay, then how do you do it? Councilman Senn: Well I mean are you assuming just within an 8 hour work day? I mean a full time. Mayor Mancino: I'm thinking of a full time is 40 hours a week. Councilman Senn: If the business functions 40 hours a week, but if it functions more than that, a full time equivalent covers all those hours of the business. Mayor Mancino: And how many hours are you going to be open a day? Susan McAllister: Boy, it says here from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. and I'm fine with that. Councilman Senn: So it'd be 12 times 7 which would be what, 84 hours a week. Susan McAllister: Okay, so what I'm asking for is I'm just saying that I need to have, in my original plan I asked for 4 to 5 people and I, you know I just need to have that when I need them. Mayor Mancino: And the Planning Commission was okay with 3 full time equivalents. Susan McAllister: Okay. So that means I get 6 part time, is that what that means? Councilman Senn: No, it means on a weekly basis you had 252 hours. Susan McAllister: Okay. Councilman Senn: And I'm sure you have peak periods and you have low periods that occurs...that you'll be there and other times you'll... 250 some hours is a lot of hours. Susan McAllister: Okay. I will have somebody with me at all times, you know what I mean? I will not be by myself, okay. The highest peak period is when I'd be having my pony rides. Mayor Mancino: 252 hours Sue. Susan McAllister: That's a lot huh? Okay, fine. That's fine. Okay, we'll go on. Mayor Mancino: Okay, on number 4, it's only customary farm animals shall be allowed on this site. Wild or exotic animals shall be prohibited. Susan McAllister: I have a problem with that because I already have animals that are wild and exotic. I haven't had any problem with them at all. I've had them since, on and off since 1994. There's been a lot of concern about my peafowl and I'll say that because that's one peacock and two peahens. And that has been a concern of the city that there's been somebody else in the city who has, cannot take care of their peafowl. I do take care of mine and I plan on continuing to take care of mine and so I have a problem with that. Okay. And then I have a baby fox. Councilman Senn: What is being recommended? I thought that was changed. 20 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: Well this is still what is recommended by staff. The Planning Commission changed it, if you look on page 2, their recommendation would be to say that dangerous animals shall be prohibited. So that is their suggestion to us. Sue, your list of animals. Councilman Senn: How do you define that one Roger? Roger Knutson: We've struggled with that. Councilman Senn: I mean wild and exotic is pretty hard to define. Roger Knutson: That's not a good definition either. Dangerous is not a good. There is no good definition of dangerous. A pony steps on your foot, it's dangerous. Those words are not... Councilman Senn: Let's pass an approved list. Roger Knutson: Or, what's here right now is, I'm pretty comfortable with, is. If you say customarily and historically associated with being raised on agricultural properties in the United States. Mayor Mancino: So if we look at Sue's list in our packet, examples of animals to be available, are there any animals on this list that would be a problem? Roger Knutson: I haven't seen it. Mayor Mancino: Okay, if you could look at the list. Goats, pheasants, prairie dogs, cats, geese, is there any council member who has a concern about any of these animals? Councilwoman Jansen: I don't have a concern with them except by calling them customarily and historically associated with agricultural property, you're also eliminating I would assume, chinchillas, hedge hogs. Definitely non-dangerous animals and I don't even know if they make a noise as far as being a nuisance. Susan McAllister: I brought a little thing for you. Whoops, it's upside down. He's the chinchilla .... their fur is so soft for kids to pet. Do you want to feel it? Mayor Mancino: What I'm asking council is can we just include this list as an acceptable list for. Councilman Senn: This looks fine to me. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, as Miss Rosie's Farm and just say this is an acceptable list. Scott Botcher: What happens when the calf grows into a, not a calf? Do you replace it with another calf? Councilman Engel: You mean a 2,000 pound bull? Scott Botcher: Right. Just so we all know. Susan McAllister: No, I do plan on replacing them. That's the only animal that I plan on replacing on an ongoing basis because they do, you know they do get big. 21 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Scott Botcher: So then you'll take it to market is the plan? Susan McAllister: Because if I said that am I going to be a bad person? Mayor Mancino: No, it's a farm. Susan McAllister: My animals live like millionaires as long as possible. Scott Botcher: The only thing I'm saying is that if you have a calf and you never take it to market, you will eventually start adding bulls. Or whatever it is you want. Susan McAllister: Okay. Does it say here that that was going to be temporary or not? Just on a seasonal basis. Councilman Senn: Well it says a young calf. If we go by the list, the list governs. Susan McAllister: Right. It's a calf. Mayor Mancino: Well one of my suggestions and can you hold for a second, is just to have some discussion around it before and just put your list in as number 4 as acceptable on your petting farm, and then obviously we'd have to change the definition of petting farm up at the top too but that's, so we don't get into describing wild or exotic or dangerous or anything. We use your list as to what's acceptable. Okay? Susan McAllister: Okay. Councilwoman Jansen: And then that list would apply to any petting farm, because this is just the general ordinance correct. Roger Knutson: So then define petting farms as having these animals and these animals only? Mayor Mancino: Yep. Yep. Roger Knutson: We can do that. But then remember it's these animals and these animals only. Mayor Mancino: Well if somebody wants to come in and add to it. Roger Knutson: They'd have to amend the zoning ordinance. Mayor Mancino: That's fine. So if somebody comes in and wants to, then they can do that. You're setting new ground here so. Susan McAllister: I know. I said I'm a pioneer woman. I didn't realize it but. Mayor Mancino: Some things may be changed in the future that we're not seeing now. 22 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Susan McAllister: Okay. It says here exact numbers of species will vary from time to time as species selection will vary from time to time, but I mean it's the, this is really what, you know like what. Mayor Mancino: Okay, we got it. Okay. On 5, do you have any concerns on 5? That says all about structures and storage areas. Susan McAllister: No I don't. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Number 6. Parking area shall be screened from public or private right-of-way and adjacent single family residences and Sue, we require that on all parking spaces in the city. Susan McAllister: Okay, do I not have enough screening with the photographs that I showed you? Councilman Senn: We're not getting into judging. That's between you and staff. It just needs to meet ordinance. Susan McAllister: Alright. Mayor Mancino: Hours of operation, 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. No outdoor speakers. I mean I'll give you a minute to, I think you've read through most of these. Susan McAllister: Right. Mayor Mancino: Signs shall comply with the Article XXVI of the zoning ordinance. Retail sales, I'm assuming you have no problem with 300 feet in area? Susan McAllister: No. Mayor Mancino: 11, animals kept outside must have continual access to shelter to protect them from the elements. Must be a confined area with fencing. Susan McAllister: That's a requirement of the USDA. I cannot have any less than that or I'd get in big trouble. Mayor Mancino: And then 12, a termination date shall be established for the interim use permit. The use shall be permitted until a particular date, until the occurrence of a, and this is one that you have asked for a conditional use permit versus an interim use permit. Susan McAllister: Yes I have. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Councilman Senn: Just to clarify on that though. Mayor Mancino: Yes Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: If that's something you want to consider tonight, we can't do it. 23 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Engel: Because it wasn't published. Councilman Senn: Because it wasn't published as a conditional use permit. It was published as an interim use permit. So I mean just so everybody understands that. Mayor Mancino: Now I'm also assuming, if we go ahead and do an interim use permit at any time the applicant can come back in and ask for it to be changed. I mean we'll have to apply again but can come in and ask for it to be changed from interim use to a conditional use. I mean it can be in 1 year. It can be in 2 years. It can be in 3 years. I mean they certainly, the applicant has the right to come in whenever he or she wants to for a conditional use permit. Correct? Kate Aanenson: That's correct. Susan McAllister: Okay let me ask, has the council members read my letter that was an attachment to this packet? You know I am asking for a conditional use permit because that's what I wanted in the beginning to justify the cost that goes into it and that. Mayor Mancino: And what we're just saying, because it was published for an interim use permit, that is what we would be granting tonight, is an interim use permit. Councilwoman Jansen: Or we would have to table and bring it back. Councilman Senn: Start over again. Mayor Mancino: We'd have to start over again for a conditional use permit. Susan McAllister: And what does that entail? Starting all over again meaning? Mayor Mancino: Kate, could you. Kate Aanenson: Public hearing goes back to the Planning Commission for a public hearing and back through this process. Just for some background on the interim use permit. Whatever you do to this property, which you described, applies to any other similarly zoned property. What's not showing on this is that there will be adjacent homes in close proximity. It's not showing up. This property's 6 acres. The ordinance allows something could be in a situation where you may not want it to be. That's why we put it as an interim use. It is an urban transition and we believe that over time that a higher, better use may with this property. Conditional use runs forever with the property. No other city has this type of ordinance and we're just a little nervous about how it's all going to shake out. It may operate great. You may come back and ask for a code amendment but we're going down uncharted waters here and we're just a little bit nervous about some of the conditions and standards. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Roger Knutson: Mayor? Mayor Mancino: Yes. 24 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Roger Knutson: Based upon your discussion I would suggest that the following changes be made in the draft ordinance you've been presented. In the definition of petting farm would be amended to read, petting farm means any activity whereby the following animals may be exhibited regardless of compensation and then you would list these animals. Paragraph 4. The following would be deleted. Only customary farm animals shall be allowed on the site. Wild or exotic animals shall be prohibited. You're taking that out because you're having a specific list of permitted animals. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Thank you. Now if we go ahead and say yes with those changes and yes with the 3 full time equivalents, Kate on here it doesn't say anything about, I'm sorry Cindy, an expiration date. Cindy Kirchoff: That is condition number 11 under the recommendations. The interim use shall terminate in 7 years. Page 16. Kate Aanenson: You have that as a separate ordinance amendment so the other is interim use. Mayor Mancino: So I'm sorry. What are we approving tonight? Are we approving this? Cindy Kirchoff: We're approving two things. A zoning ordinance amendment and an interim use permit. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. So then we have to make sure that both of them are the. Kate Aanenson: In sync, correct. Mayor Mancino: Are in sync with each other. Susan McAllister: And then I'm asking you to go from 7 to 10 and that's only 3 years more. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Susan McAllister: But like I said, I do plan on coming back here after I've demonstrated my business sense to you and how it, I believe it's going to work successfully in 2 years, asking for a conditional use permit. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Councilwoman Jansen: And I'm assuming that would be from the start date of the actual business since we've discussed it may not be able to start until 78th Street comes through. Mayor Mancino: Yeah. That's the other part. Councilwoman Jansen: So it would be from once you have access from 78th Street. Susan McAllister: Then let me say this. I do have a letter from MnDot that does say that I can use the other driveway. Did you know that? Mayor Mancino: Well it's between you and MnDot so whenever you officially start, you know it's worked out with MnDot. If they allow you to, you'll need to notify us. And then it will start from that start date. 25 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Susan McAllister: Okay, because it's not going to like start today and the clock's going to be ticking and I have to put a septic in. I have to do this and I have to do that. It's not going to be that way, right? Thank you. Okay. Councilman Senn: Mayor, there is a blow up date isn't there? On the approval. I thought the ordinance prescribed a blow up date though of, I mean it just isn't, it isn't perpetual. Roger Knutson: It's 7 years unless you change it. Kate Aanenson: That's what we're recommending. Roger Knutson: Your recommendation is 7 years. Councilman Senn: Okay, so they could, 7 years from the point of starting. Roger Knutson: From the date of approval. Councilman Senn: From the date that it's granted. Roger Knutson: Yes. We have no way of tracking when she would. Councilman Senn: So if she waits 4 years to do it, that's not... Roger Knutson: It's her decision. Kate Aanenson: Just also on the interim use, you can come back and ask for an extension so if she cannot get started she can come back and say I was going to be in, I mean interim use allows for extension. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Roger Knutson: Mayor last item, the City Manager brought up a good thing. We probably should also put in the scientific names for these animals like the young calf could be anything. I think we're talking about... Mayor Mancino: Okay, good. Councilwoman Jansen: Good point. Mayor Mancino: Any other questions that we should talk about and ask the applicant about, from any council members. Councilwoman Jansen: The only other point in the recommendation that we touched on, and I'm back on page 16, which was specific to this site, was point number 3 about the parking. Your original request I believe was 20 stalls and 2 buses and this is 10 stalls and 1 bus. Susan McAllister: Right. 26 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: And Cindy, can you, I'm sorry to interrupt but I was just going to ask staff's viewpoint, why you brought in 10 stalls and 1 bus. Just from your point of view. And you know what it may be, and you know, again we're both going to have to go through this. It just may be you did a little bit of this and you did a little bit of this, you know trying to figure out what would be the best without intensifying it too much and it may be that we limit it a little bit and then after a couple years it's fine and we open it up a little more. Again, we've got to work together on this. Susan McAllister: And I have been working with Cindy and providing all the materials. Mayor Mancino: Good, but it's going to be a continual working together and what works and what doesn't. You have to be real open with that. Susan McAllister: And I am for that. Mayor Mancino: So from your perspective please. Cindy Kirchoff: We put the limit on there just to limit the intensity of the site and the number of people that are on the site. And the 10 stalls could hold a 15 passenger van. You know ten 15 passenger vans so that may number quite a few people. Mayor Mancino: Sure, okay. I'm sorry, it was your question to begin with so take it away. Councilwoman Jansen: I guess I'm thinking more of standard families. I'm seeing this as a family outing location so I mean what do we use the standard in a household, 2.5 or how many kids do we allot? Kate Aanenson: I guess we saw this more as birthday party activity. Daycare. I'm a mom. I've been on the field trips. You put a few kids on the bus... Councilman Senn: I think you're right. Kate Aanenson: So that's what we anticipated. You could have 100-200 kids on the site. I think at first we thought 100 kids, we'd see if we could manage that and how that operates and if things are successful, I think this council, the Planning Commission would be willing to look at amending that but at first we just want to see how things operate. That 100 would probably be something. Councilwoman Jansen: Well let me ask you this. If in fact we did end up with let's say 20 vehicles that show up on a weekend, I'm visualizing these cars ending up parking then out in the adjacent neighborhoods. Is that not the instance that we're then having occur? Councilman Senn: You can probably park on the grass on the farm. Susan McAllister: Well I plan on not putting in a parking lot per se, per se you know what I mean. Gravel or whatever. Mayor Mancino: Well I'm assuming if that starts to happen, that's when you're going to come back to us and say, you know can we change it? Councilwoman Jansen: Then we do a little give and take. Okay. 27 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Susan McAllister: It's just like you know, who knows? We're trying but yeah, I appreciate the concern. Councilwoman Jansen: So we stay with the 10 and the 1 and you're. Susan McAllister: I appreciate if there is a problem I'll come back. Anything else? Mayor Mancino: Any other questions or discussion you'd like to have us do before we bring it back to council? Okay. Susan McAllister: Okay, I just have one concern. One question left. The port-a-potty thing, now what's going on with that? I don't know if I've got that clear in my mind. I mean am I allowed now to have port- a-potties or what are we doing? Kate Aanenson: No. Councilman Engel: It looks like it says permanent. Mayor Mancino: Teresa, would you answer that please? Teresa Burgess: The discussion was if that was a possibility instead of a septic system and that would not be a viable option. Susan McAllister: Okay, then let me just say this, clarify something. The septic system is with the house and the people are going to be down by the barn. The house has got nothing to do with this right now. And SO. Scott Botcher: Where else do they go to the bathroom? Susan McAllister: Well that's what I'm saying port-a-potties. That I'd have to have port-a-potties. I'm not having them come in my house. I mean the house has got nothing to do with this at this time. You know sometime it might in the future but now at this time it doesn't. Teresa Burgess: The Building Inspections Department would state the requirements on the restrooms for the public. The concern is that the septic system is currently failing and that that needs to be upgraded. Susan McAllister: And I am going to, I have plans right now to upgrade the system for the house. Mayor Mancino: But you can't as a building code regulation for the business use port-a-potties for the restrooms to meet the building code. Am I correct in that? Kate Aanenson: That was the building officials recommendation and it's on page 16 of the staff report. The condition. Mayor Mancino: Okay. The use proposed does require that permanent sanitation facilities be provided, two restrooms. One male and one female, and Sue that is on page 16 under number 12. 28 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Susan McAllister: Okay. At one time we did, he said that port-a-potties would be acceptable if it were a seasonal business. Councilman Senn: I think that's true because we've done that. We have that out at Swings. Mayor Mancino: Well then we'd have to, in these conditions, put seasonal and when it's open and when it's closed. Then we'd have to show that you may only have this open from the months of operation from April to October. Susan McAllister: That's right. That's exactly it. April 1st to October 31st. I mean at one point, now wait a minute. I did say, I said all year round okay, and then I didn't realize about the septic system you know or the port-a-potties and then I had to start thinking, what's realistic for me, you know what I'm saying? And so I don't know how many people I'm going to get in the dead of winter up there. Mayor Mancino: My concern is tonight, and I don't know unless we have someone here who knows the State Building Codes, when it's seasonal, do we know how many months? I mean is there. Kate Aanenson: This is news to us. Steve did tell her it was seasonal. She had never approached us about it being seasonal and the conditions so I don't know what that definition would be. Councilman Senn: Yeah, what basis did we do Swings on? I remember we did Swings on. Kate Aanenson: That was seasonal. But that was before my time but it wasn't open in the winter. Councilman Senn: But there's a lot of special, and that's an interim use, right? Kate Aanenson: Yes it was. Councilman Engel: It's easily April through October. Councilman Senn: ... I can't remember all the details on that but I remember there was a lot of hoops or rules whatever to go through on that. Susan McAllister: Well I'm saying that I, you know like when it came down to knowing, you know with the septic system failing and all that, and then all of a sudden things started changing. I didn't, I started thinking well okay, what can I do now and Steve and I talked and he said if it was seasonal, it could be port-a-potties. And I said well okay then. Maybe I'll have to make it seasonal then. Mayor Mancino: Well that would be a condition that we would place on here then. That it is for seasonal. The petting farm is for seasonal use from April 1st to October 31st, and then you could use port-a-potties but again they have to be handicapped and anything else. Councilman Senn: Mayor if I could, I don't think any of us are sure on that, unless there's somebody here who is. I mean otherwise maybe we should push this offtil next meeting and get it resolved if it's that important. Because I mean I hate to sit here and act tonight and find out we acted on something we can't do. Mayor Mancino: We can't do. 29 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Kate Aanenson: It is a building code question. Roger Knutson: Or you could, if you wanted to, you could say. Councilman Senn: Has to meet building code? Mayor Mancino: It has to meet building code definitions. Roger Knutson: You can say, give someone an alternative for example. You could say this or what you have printed, or if it's a seasonal business operated within the months of April 1 to October 31, you can have port-a-potties if port-a-potties are permitted by the State Building Code. Councilman Senn: Well rather than saying port-a-potties, just a seasonal business that meets State Building Code, correct? Roger Knutson: For disposal of sanitary waste. Mayor Mancino: Okay. That's what we do. Susan McAllister: See I would like to have this or this. Do you see what I'm saying because this is something I have not had a chance to really research. Teresa Burgess: Mayor? I'm not sure if it makes a difference to Susan but you would still be required to upgrade your septic system. Susan McAllister: Yeah I understand that, for the house I would. Right. Teresa Burgess: Correct. Susan McAllister: I mean that's a big difference. You know a personal septic system versus a commercial one. You know I'm prepared to upgrade the personal one but you know the commercial one, I don't know. It could be like $30,000 or $25,000. I've already checked that out. Scott Botcher: Yeah, and you may just want to consider, depending if you're going to be in operation 10 years, what 10 years of port-a-potty rental, port-a-potty cleaning is going to cost you. Susan McAllister: What happened to the outhouse? Scott Botcher: I'm just saying. It's a fair question, just you want to make sure what's in your best interest. Susan McAllister: Right I know. See I have to research that. Mayor Mancino: So we'll have to write it in a way that either or and that we feel comfortable with as part of, so this is going to take us some time to craft all this. Any other questions or concerns for Sue at this time? Okay, thank you. 30 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Susan McAllister: Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Now do you have anyone here that would like to speak on your behalf? Susan McAllister: I believe I do. Mayor Mancino: And if you do, could we limit it to a couple of minutes please per person. And that would be great, thank you. Vemelle Clayton: Sue had asked me to come and address the issue of the conditional use permit versus interim use permit. I do have very strong feelings as someone that she has asked to give some assistance to. Sue I have to say though, initially you asked me to just help you through the process. The best thing you could do tonight is have them vote yes on interim use. You'll establish some precedent. You'll have some guidelines. Come back and talk another day about conditional use. They can vote on that tonight anyway. So my advice is take what you can get. Councilman Engel: You have no experience in this. Mayor Mancino: Yes, what are you doing talking Vernelle? Vernelle Clayton: Yes but I think though if she were to decide to come back asking for a conditional use permit in say the next 60 days or short period of time, she ought to be able to do that without paying another fee because she didn't ask for an interim use permit. She didn't ask for it not to be put on the, published that way. She asked always for a conditional use permit so I think she should be able to administratively have that favor and go through the process. Maybe talk just specifically about conditional use versus interim. I think there are some arguments that could be made for her on that behalf but tonight I think we talk about interim use. Mayor Mancino: Thank you Vernelle. Anybody else? Okay, let's bring this back to council and I hope there's someone that can craft this all together so that, and let's just take some time and if we have to help each other out, let's figure it out. Councilman Senn: Let me try. Mayor Mancino: Okay. And will you please go slowly so we can all follow along with you. Councilman Senn: Well I'm going to try to take the simple approach. Mayor Mancino: Good. Councilman Senn: The simple approach is that we approve the interim use permit as per staff's recommendation and the ordinance as drafted with the following exceptions or changes. Mayor Mancino: Okay, so you're going first to the ordinance. Councilman Senn: Yep. 31 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: Okay. We've all got the ordinance sheet in from of us. Because we want to make sure we're on the same document and everything. Okay. Councilman Senn: And so with the following changes. So in item number 3. Mayor Mancino: First you have to Section 1 under the definition of petting farm. Councilman Senn: Well I'll come back to that as soon as Roger comes back to the room... But just let me go this way. Number 3 would be changed to 3 full time equivalents. Number 4 would be deleted. Number 12, I would leave 7 years because she's going to come back in anyway on the CUP and deal with it on that... Mayor Mancino: My number 12 doesn't have 7 years. It doesn't have a year. Councilman Senn: I know. It says, yeah but it says one needs to be established. Councilwoman Jansen: If I could. I think that actually falls under the specific application that's back on page 16. Mayor Mancino: Because we'll still have to do that too. Councilwoman Jansen: Point number 11. This is the general one that's just saying. Councilman Senn: Okay, you didn't want it in the ordinance. You want it in the general... Councilwoman Jansen: In the specific. Councilman Senn: Alright, so leave it out of there then. And then essentially number 1 would be, and I think I saw Kate write it down but essentially substitute the language that Roger already put into the record as it related to the introduction of the list of names and scientific names of the animals and insert it in at that point in the ordinance. Councilman Engel: Wait a minute now. Did you say number 17 Councilman Senn: Yeah. Section 1 of the ordinance. Councilman Engel: Section 1, okay. Because I'm looking at number 4 for the definition of the animals. Councilman Senn: With the definition of petting farm. So the definition would be changed as per the earlier language of the city attorney. Councilman Engel: I have a question for you then. What about on number 3 where you said go to 3 full time equivalents non resident employees, blah, blah, blah. How about, and I'm for simplicity here. The profitability of the farm is her responsibility and I think that would guide her in the proper decisions. I'm just for strike it out altogether. She's not going to hire 25 people to that business. I think it reads easier if we just eliminate it. Mayor Mancino: Now remember this is an overall one. 32 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Senn: Yeah, this isn't just her business Mark. Councilman Engel: Yeah I'm with you on that. Councilman Senn: And it's per 5 acres. So I mean essentially this, I mean somebody could come in with 20 acres tomorrow and want to do the same type of thing and you know so I mean, and my understanding is staff's guideline on this related back to the parking and all kinds of other things that would have to do with it. Councilman Engel: See and I use the same. Councilman Senn: Intensification. Councilman Engel: And I'm with you on that. I know what you mean. It seems like the door may be opening to big businesses that may not be a good fit for say abutting neighborhoods or something like that and my thought is that the profitability of those places will drive that decision as well and that the land they'd have to dedicate to parking, the compensation, all the hassles that go along with employing that many people, would leave them not to want to do that. I just think you'd add, it's more complexity. I just thought it's easier to go without. The employees. Councilman Senn: All I'm trying to do is trying to put a cap on it and stuff. The 252 hours is a lot of hours and if it doesn't work, they can come back in and we can talk about it. The 252 just seemed like, I mean that's you can have 3 people there around the clock for cripes sake and you know that's not going to be the situation so you effectively could have 6 during the peak hours of the day and... Councilwoman Jansen: I would actually agree with Councilman Engel's observation. That it does seem like we're making a business decision that is better left with the establishment, and who's going to be out there actually monitoring? I don't think it's going to be a matter of how many employees that are going to determine the intensity, if that's what we're concerned with here. Councilman Senn: Well then you're going to add one parking stall for every employee too. Mayor Mancino: Add parking stalls for employees. Councilman Senn: ... now you're going to be intensifying the parking. You're going to be intensifying a lot of uses. Mayor Mancino: How many, we have a lot of 5 acre parcels don't we, that this could apply to. We have a lot of 5 acre parcels next to neighborhoods. That's the only part that concerns me because you get you know neighborhoods that don't want a lot of traffic on the streets near them. I don't know. If you have that many, if you just open up the number of employees, then what do we do about parking? Councilman Senn: We can only do what's commercially reasonable which is 1 parking stall per employee. Mayor Mancino: And so if somebody has 20 employees, then we've got to have 20 parking spots and we're going to limit the parking stalls to 10. And 1 bus. 33 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilwoman Jansen: But if we've designated the number of parking stalls and they've giving some up to their employees, they're making that decision. It's not the city making that decision to give up those parking stalls. It's again another business decision. At one point they could have 6-8 people there at the same time with this full time equivalent. So I don't know that it's. Mayor Mancino: So they'd be giving up, out of 10 of those parking stalls, they've be giving up 6 to employees so they could only have 4 other cars there and 1 bus. That does limit it. Councilman Senn: Well again, on a small parcel like this I think you need to be sensitive to the surrounding neighbors that are going to be close, not far. And I think staffs put a lot of thought and work into that and I mean we're already tripling effectively. Mayor Mancino: Their suggestion. Councilman Senn: Yeah, their suggestion so I mean. Again, this is trial. I just hate to get totally carried away. Councilman Engel: Well if it becomes a problem for her then we'll have to come back. And for anybody else. Do you know what I mean? What I'm thinking, I'm going back to the driving range down on 212 and how, I don't like it when we encumber a new business with rules and regulations that might drive them right out of business. Or make it very difficult for them and I think if they did have, and I believe they did have 1 or 2, they came back right away and let us know. The lights was one and we dealt with it. So okay. And we had the door open. We did change it as soon as they came back. It was a hardship for them to compete without the lights. Kate Aanenson: Both of those sites also had hard surface parking. This won't. There's not going to be stripes. It's gravel. Mayor Mancino: So, yeah. Okay. Councilman Senn: And none of those were in close proximity to residential neighborhoods either so. Councilman Engel: We did change the last and I'm okay with that. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Do you have any other questions? Councilman Engel: No, that was the big thing. I just didn't want to put, you know. I didn't want to start her out with one hamstring cut already. Mayor Mancino: Sure. I'm sure she appreciates that. Councilman Senn: That's the end of the motion. Mayor Mancino: Okay, is there a second to the motion? Councilwoman Jansen: Second. 34 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded to approve Zoning Ordinance Amendment #00-1 amending Chapter 20 of the Chanhassen City Code Allowing Petting Farms as an Interim Use Permit in the A2, Agricultural Estate District to read as follows: Section 1. Section 20-1 of the Chanhassen City Code is amended by adding the following definition: Petting farm means any activity whereby the following list of animals may be exhibited regardless of compensation and then you would list these animals. Section 2. Article IV., Division 3, Standards for Agricultural and Residential Districts, of the Chanhassen City Code is hereby amended by adding the following section: Sec. 20-267. Petting Farms. The following conditions will apply to petting farms: 1. The site must be on and have access to a collector or minor arterial as identified in the comprehensive plan. 2. The minimum lot size shall be five (5) acres. 3. The site must also be used as a residence. Only three (3) full time equivalent non-resident employees shall be employed on the site per five (5) acres. 4. All structures and storage areas must be set back fifty (50) feet from public or private rights-of- way, and three hundred (300) feet from an adjacent single family residence or a minimum of fifty (50) feet from a side lot line, whichever is greater. The City Council may require storage areas to be completely screened by one hundred (100) percent opaque fencing or berming. 5. Parking areas shall be screened from public or private rights-of-way and adjacent single family residences. 6. Hours of operation shall be from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.. The City Council may further restrict hours of operation if the use is located adjacent to property guided residential as identified in the comprehensive plan. 7. No outdoor speaker systems shall be allowed. 8. Signage shall comply with Article XXVI of the Zoning Ordinance. 9. Retail sales shall be limited to three hundred (300) square feet in area. Retail sales shall be limited to petting farm related items. 10. Animals kept outside must have continual access to shelter to protect them from the elements and must be in a confined area with fencing. 11. A termination date shall be established for the interim use permit. The use shall be permitted until a particular date, until the occurrence of a particular date, or until zoning regulations no longer 35 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 permit it. Prior to the permit expiring, the applicant may request an extension to the interim use permit by submitting a new application. The renewal application will be subject to all city ordinances including any new ordinances enacted after the original approval. Section 3. Section 20-576 of the Chanhassen City code is amended by adding the following interim use: (9) Petting farms. Section 4. This ordinance shall be effective immediately upon it's passage and publication. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Mayor Mancino: The next motion which has to do with page 15 and 16 of the report that is the recommendations for this particular interim use. Could I have a motion on that one please? Councilman Senn: I already made it. This is the second one. I'll move that the City Council approve the Interim Use the plans dated, are they still the February 22, 2000? For the operation of a petting conditions, 1 through 12. And I'm asking the question, we're okay with number 11 107 10 versus 7? Do we like 107 I like 10. okay with 10. Councilwoman Jansen: Permit #00-2 subject to farm with the following going to 7 years versus Councilman Engel: Or Councilwoman Jansen: Councilman Engel: I'm Councilwoman Jansen: Teresa Burgess: Also Changing number 11 to the interim use shall terminate in 10 years. Mayor, staff had requested a revision to number 14. On page 17 to read, the septic system shall be brought into compliance prior to the operation commencing on the site. In addition, maintenance and inspection reports shall be submitted to the city on a bi-annual basis. At such time as the septic system fails and sanitary sewer is available to the property, shall connect to the sanitary system as per the requirements in place at that time. Mayor Mancino: Okay, does that sound fine for everyone? Councilwoman Jansen: Did that just cover us for the port-a-potty issue too? Mayor Mancino: No. Teresa Burgess: No. What that is doing is allowing the property owner to not have to connect to the new sanitary system 12 months after it's installed. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. So then do I still need to amend point number 12 so that we're saying as printed, or if it is a seasonal business it must meet State Building Code requirements. Does that cover us? 36 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Senn: As a seasonal business. Councilwoman Jansen: As a seasonal business. Did I get everything? Does anybody else have any other notes? And that was 1 through 14. I think I said 12 and it's 1 through 14. I didn't mm the page. Mayor Mancino: Is there a second to the motion? Councilman Engel: Second. Councilwoman Jansen moved, Councilman Engel seconded that the City Council approves Interim Use Permit #00-2, subject to the plans dated February 22, 2000 for the operation of a petting farm with the following conditions: 1. The site plan shall comply with Section 20-267. Petting Farms. 2. Accumulation of feces shall be located at least 200 feet from any well. Accumulation of feces shall be removed at such periods as will ensure that no leaching or objectionable odors exist. The premise shall not be allowed to become unsightly. 3. Parking shall be limited to ten (la) stalls with the provision for only one (1) bus. 4. The applicant shall submit a landscape plan for the proposed development. The applicant shall show the location, size and species of proposed trees and shrubs. 5. Landscaping shall be added to the area between the parking lot and West 78th Street to provide a buffer. Included in the plantings shall be overstory trees, evergreens and shrubs. 6. Landscaping may be required for the parking lot if it exceeds 6,000 square feet. 7. The site shall only have access from West 78th Street. 8. A dead animal disposal plan shall be submitted to the city for review. 9. The permit shall be reviewed annually to determine compliance. la. The applicant must apply and obtain all necessary permits from regulatory agencies such as Carver County, DNR, USDA, etc. 11. The interim use permit shall terminate in ten (1 a) years. 12. The Building Official's conditions are as follows: a. All public buildings must meet code requirements as required for new buildings because of the change in occupancy classifications. b. All buildings and areas intended for use by the public must be on an accessible route and accessible to people with disabilities. 37 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Two accessible parking spaces must be provided. Accessible sanitation facilities must be provided. 1. The use proposed does require that permanent sanitation facilities be provided, two restrooms, one male and one female. 2. A new onsite sewage treatment system must be installed. 3. The system must be sized to accommodate the waste from the dwelling (this system has recently been determined to be failing), as well as the waste from the business. 4. The new system must meet the requirements of Minnesota Rules Chapter 7080 for other establishments. 5 If it is to be a seasonal operation, it must meet State Building Code requirements for a seasonal business. 13. 14. e. The food preparation facilities require approval from the Minnesota Department of Health. f. Structures intended for public use must be evaluated by a structural engineer to determine if the building is safe for occupancy. The Fire Marshal's conditions are as follows: a. A 20 foot wide fire lane shall be provided. b. The Fire Marshal shall review the existing buildings to be utilized for the petting farm to determine code compliance. c. Smoking is prohibited in any building used in conjunction with the business. d. ;~No Parking Fire Lane" signs shall be installed on the fire lane. e. Any new driveway must be designed to support the weight of a fire truck year round. f. Any new driveway must be installed prior to the removal of the existing driveway. g. The amount of combustible material (i.e. hay, straw, etc.) on the floors of any buildings used in the business must meet fire code requirements. h. All electrical wiring must meet code. The septic system shall be brought into compliance prior to the operation commencing on the site. In addition, maintenance and inspection reports shall be submitted to the city on a bi-annual basis. At such time as the septic system fails and sanitary sewer is available to the property, shall connect to the sanitary system as per the requirements in place at that time. 38 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Councilwoman Jansen: Good luck Miss Rosie's Farm. Mayor Mancino: And I'm sure we will be in contact and checking out things and how they're working, etc. And please do work Sue, with staff on you know the next few years, anything that comes up. You know we should write it down. Review it. Any of the concerns and just deal with it forthrightly and openly about how we're going to meet things that come up. Okay? Susan McAllister: Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Councilwoman Jansen: And staff, thanks for all your hard work on that one. I know it was a long, lengthy process. Scott Botcher: Are you leaving Cindy? Mayor Mancino: You can't leave yet. Scott Botcher: I want to, and Kate you'll have to help me on this one. Now hang on a second. Cindy received a certification. Kate Aanenson: She passed her AICP. Scott Botcher: And worked very hard and diligently and received a national certification so I wanted to congratulate her. Mayor Mancino: Congratulations. And now you're going into new territory on petting farms for us as a city so you'll. Kate Aanenson: She can be a case study. Councilman Engel: Now that she's better qualified, double her work load. REQUEST FOR APPROVAL OF SITE PLAN~ LANDSCAPING PLAN~ AND CONSTRUCTION PLANS & SPECIFICATIONS~ LAKE ANN MAINTENANCE BUILDING. Kate Aanenson: This project is being precipitated by the Highway 5 corridor study. As you've been aware by the removal of the existing Lake Ann facility, which is approximately 3,400 square feet, the City has been working to relocate a building to provide for the maintenance storage. As a part of this discussion the City looked at providing an opportunity for. Councilman Senn: Quick while she's gone we'll just move the rest of the agenda. Councilman Engel: I've got the hammer right here. 39 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Kate Aanenson: The Waconia Ridges ambulatory service so that was added to this building. Just to give you an idea of where it's located. It does come off the Lake Ann driveway. Do you want me not to give the staff report? Councilwoman Jansen: No, please do the staff report. Thank you. Kate Aanenson: Okay. Coming off the Lake Ann driveway, just north of the existing tennis courts. Some of the site designs obviously are being driven by the frontage road location that's kind of setting some of the framework here. As shown on the landscaping plan here that was done by Hoisington-Koegler, you can see the trail that will follow the frontage road. That trail adds to the interesting experience because it does more than meet the frontage road... Highway 5, so it is visible. When this plan came in and had contemplated a chain link fence. Certainly the staff recommended and they thought through that a wood fence would be better because to screen all the outdoor storage and there will be some outdoor storage. In addition all the parking contemplated for this site, even the ambulatory use will all be in the back screened so it won't be visible so it will be a nice experience going along the front too. The access for the ambulance will be separate from the access to the building for the park maintenance people. As far as the look of the building itself. It will be all brick. It does have a large roof line. It was one concern that the staff did raise. It does have a break in the roof line where the ambulatory service will be provided. One of the things that staff had recommended and the Planning Commission concurred that it may need something else to break the roof line, and maybe that could be accomplished. Something like cupola's or something so that it kind of maintains that rural setting. Again it is a maintenance building and the Planning Commission did spend some time discussing whether or not the architecture on this building was significant enough. It is a pre-fab building. But where we started with originally and moved significantly as far as the design of the building, it does have the brick. The three colors on the outside with the green shingles. The building will give the appearance of windows on the side that would face the driveway itself. We'd put in glass block. The Planning Commission did have some concerns that maybe it should be windows. Again for security purposes, and just overall maintenance, durability, because it is storage. It's not heated in that area. The only heated area will be where the ambulatory services that. We thought glass block would be the better building. It is a cold storage building and that's what it will be used for is storage. So with that the Planning Commission held their hearing last week. They did recommend approval with two conditions, number 10 and 11. Number 10 that they felt that inspecting the site that the general area of the building should be cleaned up but I think that has a lot to do with the fact that the existing building was removed and there is a lot of outdoor storage certainly the park will take care of that. Then number 11 was that they were concerned about the architecture. They felt because it is the entrance to the park, that it needs to make a better statement as far as the style and the look. With that I'd be happy to answer any questions. Mr. Engelhardt's here to talk about the architecture itself and then landscaping plan... Mayor Mancino: So Kate, the maintenance yard is going to have a wooden fence, that's part of the conditions. But the maintenance yard is what's going to front the frontage road and 5. I mean you'll see all that from the trail and the frontage road. Kate Aanenson: Well you look at the grade though, I think based on that, the frontage road's over here. Then this would be the trail walking along behind and this is the storage area here. All parking would be in the back of the building. This would be the entrance to the Waconia Ridges would be here. Otherwise all other access to the building would be from here to the back. Scott Botcher: Could you touch on the grade differences? 40 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Kate Aanenson: Sure. Do you want to talk about that Bill? Bill Engelhardt: If you look at the roadway, in this general area you're at about a 960 elevation at the building and... 965 so there's about 5 feet difference in elevation between the roadway and the site. We originally had the site up a little bit higher and through discussions with the staff, they indicated that they'd like to see this lowered so we actually lowered the building site here about 3 feet. And as a part of that, we've generated about 3,000 excess yards of material so that has to come out but the building was lowered to reduce the profile from the roadway and then trying to keep it matched with the access to Lake Ann. One of the things that we looked at, it's very difficult to build a cold storage building with a lot of architectural design to it and stay within a reasonable budget. It's a fairly costly building the way it is simply because of the size. Roughly 10,000 square feet. So our thought was to do significant landscaping along the fence area and in the front and bring the highlight. Take the view of the building away with landscaping. And so when you drive in you may see the building but you're going to focus your eye more on the landscaping and the flowers and the trees and those type of things versus looking and saying, oh there's a big building out in the middle. So our focus was to maintain a reasonable building. Again it is cold storage, but then focus on the landscaping so that you see it as a park area versus looking at a building. That's what we were trying to achieve. Whether we did it or not, I don't know. I think Hoisington-Koegler did a nice job of landscaping. There isn't a whole lot we can do with the building. I suppose we could get more creative but we've estimated about $65.00 a square foot in the building based on bidding climates. It's probably going to be pretty close to that. One of the things that happens when we added the ambulance bay, we're now looking at two heating zones. You've got the cold storage. We've got the warm, becoming year round temperature control and the ambulance and we felt in order to reduce any potential problems with footings, that we'd have to put a footing all the way around so it does have a footing all the way around the building. Where initially it was just a pole barn with a veneer. So I mean through the course of this whole project, as it's been through the changes and requirements on the design, the length, the width, those types of things all dictated what we could and couldn't do. The building itself, the scope or the task was not to have the interior columns because you're going to be loading fertilizer, seeds, materials for all of your parks. It's the main building for all your parks. So without any columns, it's very difficult to span 72 feet without fake beams and those types of things, so that's how you, this type of building's... Now you could go to tip up panels.., better than this. That's just personal opinion I guess. But you're going to get a higher cost with that type of building too. When you start getting involved in the steel and those types of things. So again this was, we worked through this. Certainly anything that you would like to see differently we can do. This is kind of our goal. Mayor Mancino: Bill in your opinion, does the higher cost or doing tip-up's or steel, I mean is there a longer life so that a cost analysis would show that yes, you're going to spend a little bit more but you're going to get a longer life or a more durable product. Bill Engelhardt: There probably is a longer life and it's maybe a difference between 30 and 40. Councilman Senn: In this size of a building it'd be cost prohibitive to do tip-up. Scott Botcher: It'd kill you. Mayor Mancino: Well you brought that up so I thought I'd ask. 41 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Bill Engelhardt: But tip up panels and those types of things, yeah it's more durable but again, it's the.., in the range of$100 a square foot. Mayor Mancino: Got it. So it goes from $65 to $100. Okay, I understand that. Bill Engelhardt: Now hopefully, again it's a rough estimate. It may come in less but I think we're going to be pretty close to $65. Scott Botcher: ...that we hit a balance with the utility, the form versus function. You know the utility of the building with where it has to be with do we have, we talked today about, I guess that one of the Planning Commissioners didn't like the location and wanted it somewhere else in the property and I just sort of said well you know, you're not going to put it down by the beach. You're not going to, you put it out where what will soon be a traffic way and we did, we tried to strike a balance and I think Bill was very patient with us in multiple staff meetings. Councilman Senn: Where did the ambulatory thing come from? I mean I may have missed the meeting or something here. Scott Botcher: Oh geez, that was back one of the original presentations when we talked about doing that and I guess I just had a brain spasm one night and I said why don't we, you know we've got the ambulance out on the far end of the city and that has been an issue in the past. Response times to a majority of the city are excessive compared to norms. I mean they can run, and I should have asked Mark when he was here but I believe it was 8, 9, 10 minutes to a lot of places. And they had expressed an interest to me to get closer to Highway 5, center of the city sort of stuff and we've talked about it at the Audubon Business Park. We've talked about them with you know the Pulte property, all sorts of different places. The water tower was talked about. Public works as well. And I guess I said geez, you know if we have an opportunity maybe to do this, the cost to add the ambulance bay there, the shell. This may be the time and the place to do it because I don't see other opportunities up and down 5 really where we're going to achieve this necessarily. We still need to do the actual written document with the hospital. Where we have it right now is that, and certainly before we move ahead with this we'll get this all written down but we will build the shell and they'll finish it out. So that will be a Ridgeview expense to do that and they have done that in Watertown, that I'm aware of. They've done it somewhere else that I'm drawing a blank on. But that's really where it came from and it was just an opportunity for the city maybe to get two birds with one stone. Councilman Senn: But you're changing the whole character of the building by doing that. I mean wouldn't you be better off working that function into the existing public works building where you have a building that has heated space and accommodates it and all that sort of thing and transfer more of your cold storage or semi-cold storage stuff from public works out there to compensate or something? I mean you're adding significant costs to this building by throwing an ambulance in if that necessitates putting a footing all around this building. Big cost. Scott Botcher: Well I guess two reasons. One is that, I'm not holding out any great hope that the public works building actually will be touched in the next couple years, just looking at our capital plan. And secondly, we need space for out there for public works anyway. I don't think we're going to gain anything by just swapping out something and dumping the ambulance in there. We're still going to be short of space down there. Thirdly, this is a better location for an ambulance to be. It's right on 78th. It's right on 5. It's. 42 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Senn: When 78th is done. Scott Botcher: Sure. And that's the reason we're doing this is because 78th is coming through. It's not like we're doing it and hoping 78th is coming. This is the whole reason that we're doing it. Mayor Mancino: Todd? Todd Hoffman: Mayor, members of the council. We missed, there is a significant heated bay for the maintenance portion of this building as well and so there is, the ambulance is not the only thing that requires a heated portion. There's a maintenance bay for working on equipment during the winter months. In the cold winter months and that will see a lot of use from a city standpoint. Mayor Mancino: And it also probably means that when we do expand the public works building, that we can still stay on the same site. Because we won't need to expand it as much because we'll have this area. Scott Botcher: It will give you some flexibility with space that won't be pre-committed. Mayor Mancino: Because we don't want to go out and buy land. Councilman Senn: So what's the total project cost on this building? Bill Engelhardt: $850,000. Councilman Senn: That's all inclusive? Bill Engelhardt: That's all inclusive. Councilman Senn: Landscaping, everything? Bill Engelhardt: Yeah. Councilman Senn: And you're using how many square feet? Bill Engelhardt: 9,760. Councilman Senn: And that's how you're coming up with your $65 a foot? Bill Engelhardt: Correct. And I didn't make a, I didn't differentiate from ambulance space and cold storage for the cost because like Todd said, in the cold storage or city portion of it we do have the workshop and bathroom and the work space for the winter. I thought well, there will be some give and take in there but $65.00 on an average. The ambulance may be a little bit more but, maybe fewer doors... But there's roughly $47,000-$48,000 worth of sanitary sewer work. We have to take over to the interceptor towards the west. It's about $10,000 worth ofwatermain extension. The building has to be sprinkled. It's going to be a dry sprinkler portion of it. The building is going to require.., so that's a significant cost there. The site itself is about $100,000-$102,000 work. Blacktop, curb and gutter, drainage, storm sewer, storm sewer discharge, fencing, those types of things. And then with the amount of material that's going to be removed in the first leg of the entrance to Lake Ann, we put enough quantity or material in there that if the road is broken up with trucks moving in and out, that we could replace that road section. Now it doesn't 43 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 have to be replaced if we don't want but I don't want to, build the building and break the road up and come back later and say well we need another $100,000 to fix the road so that's in the cost. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any other questions for Bill? Okay, thank you. Any discussion from staff? I mean from council members? Councilwoman Jansen: Kate, I gathered from reading the Planning Commission minutes, and I guess when we set off down this course and putting this building in the park we had said let's make sure we're living within our own ordinances. I did read this does meet ordinance so if somebody else were coming in and proposing this building, we would end up accepting it. Kate Aanenson: It does require brick, which this building does. And the landscaping and the orientation. All outdoor storage has to be screened with opaque, with a wood fence. The only other thing that we had looked at was the roof line. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. Because I know some of the Planning Commissioners really kind of set the challenge that they didn't think we would build this building if it was coming in as someone else's and I don't know what it would cost to put the cupola's along the top and add to it or if it's even worth it, but I don't know for what we could have had out there, I think this is a dramatic improvement. And I do like the idea of the ambulance service being more centrally located. I think that was a good move for the community and the right time to do it. Mayor Mancino: Are there materials? Bill Engelhardt: I didn't bring them along. I thought they were here. Brick material that we're using is called a... mortarless technology with brick. The brick face will look identical to that wall.., so you get, it is a very good appearing brick. I was somewhat skeptical at first myself about how this would look and after seeing the samples and the weigh of the samples, I'm very comfortable with the appearance and... Kate Aanenson: We did see the samples and the Planning Commission did too. They are very heavy. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Good. Any other discussion? Then may I have a motion please? Councilman Engel: Move approval per staff report. Mayor Mancino: And is there a second? Councilwoman Jansen: Second. Councilman Engel moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded that the City Council approves Site Plan #2000-9 for Lake Ann Park Maintenance Building as shown on the plans prepared by William R. Engelhardt Associates, Inc. dated June 11, 2000, and subject to the following conditions: All areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored with seed and disc-mulched or wood fiber blanket or sod within two weeks of completion of each activity in accordance with the City's Best Management Practice Handbook. 44 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 10. 11. All utility and street improvements shall be constructed in accordance with the latest edition of the City's Standard Specifications and Detail Plates. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies, i.e. Watershed District, Metropolitan Council Environmental Service Commission, Health Department and Minnesota Pollution Control Agency. The storm water runoff from the maintenance yard shall be pretreated prior to discharging into Bluff Creek. A sump catch basin with a skimming device shall be installed to collect sediment and prevent oils or other chemicals from being discharged off site. The location and design of the storm sewer shall also be modified to discharge at the creek to minimize erosion at the end of the pipe. The applicant shall change the chain link fence around maintenance yard to wood privacy fence. The applicant shall change Autumn Purple white ash to American linden and Pin oak to Red oak in the plant schedule. A lighting plan shall be limited to security lighting only and shall be consistent with city ordinances. Signs shall be limited to monument sign only. The Fire Department has the following conditions: PIV (Post Indicator Valve) will be required on the six inch water main coming into the building. A 10 foot clear space must be maintained around the fire hydrant, i.e. street lamps, trees, shrubs, bushes, NSP, US West, cable TV and transformer boxes. This is to ensure that fire hydrants can be quickly located and safely operation by firefighters. Pursuant to Chanhassen City Ordinance #9-1. Comply with Chanhassen Fire Department regarding premise identification. The building is required to be assigned an address number and numbers should be displayed per Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention Division Policy #29-1992. Copy enclosed. The Fire Department sprinkler connection will be required to be located on the east comer of the building. Contact the Chanhassen Fire Marshal for exactly location. ~No Parking Fire Lane" signs will be required at the ambulance entrance. Contact the Chanhassen Fire Marshal for the exact location of signs and curbing to be painted yellow. Pursuant to Section 904-1, 1997 Uniform Fire Code. The Park Maintenance area should be cleaned up. The architecture of the building should create a great impression to the entrance of Lake Ann Park. 45 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 All voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 1. Councilman Senn: I also want it on the record by the way that I think $175,000 in site costs for a 10,000 square foot building is utterly crazy and should not be leading us to do this project on this site. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Councilman Senn: Oh by the way, before you leave this. I'm sorry. One question to ask since you guys passed it. Where's the money coming from? Scott Botcher: It's in our capital plan. Councilman Senn: Not $850,000. Scott Botcher: No. You'll have to approve it. You'll still have to approve the financing. We will probably review our options. Roger brought up some. We probably will consider strongly a lease revenue bond option. But we'll need to present that and bring it to you. Mayor Mancino: So I'm assuming this doesn't go ahead until we do that? Scott Botcher: Well I think the bidding and the financing preparation can probably run parallel. If you don't approve the financing, you don't accept the bids. Mayor Mancino: Okay, good. So that will be back to us on what, August 14th? Scott Botcher: We'll need to pull it together. CONSIDER AMENDMENT TO SECTION 20-906 REGARDING NON-CONFORMING LOTS OF RECORD. Kate Aanenson: I'm going to take a very complex report and try to make it very simple. This issue came to light in the fact that we had properties prior to 1987 that were allowed to subdivide at 2 1/2 acre minimum when we signed the Lake Ann Interceptor Agreement. We now said 1 per 10. We have found in a situation where we have 3 contiguous lots that meet the 2 1/2 acre minimum, but they're under one property owner so they don't meet the qualifications of the underlying zoning district which requires all the conditions of the A2 District and the rural density. We had done a code amendment that was used by the Halla plat that allowed you to go down to the 15,000 square foot lots and we changed the rural density requirements. We had suggested adding some of that language back in, but there is a simpler option which we prepared for you tonight, and that was the same section of the code which was noticed, Section 20-906, and that is number 1, where it says the 1 unit per 10 density is achieved, which this plat or these lots that are in question don't meet. So what that would say is that, 1 unit per 10 is still required, and this would continue to eliminate the sprawl of the 2 1/2 acre lots, but it does allow those lots that were in existence prior to 1987, which is the circumstance here. Again you have one property owner having 3 lots, contiguous lots. And we didn't want to penalize them so this would give them the relief. So with that the staff is recommending the ordinance amendment, Section 20-906, Number 1. If you have any questions I'd be happy to answer them. 46 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: Any questions for staff'? Councilwoman Jansen: Just one. Do we have a lot of these cases out there? Kate Aanenson: We looked through, most of those that were platted have been built on. There's a few that maybe in Hesse Farms that Mr. Hesse may have that are contiguous that are in his name. But most of the other ones are under single ownership, may have not been built on. There may be one or two but most of those subdivisions have been built on. This is a unique circumstance. There are lots of record that are under 2 ½ minimum but not similar situations like this we believe. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. No other questions. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Now do we still, do we here have two things to approve or just this ordinance? Kate Aanenson: Just the ordinance amendment. Mayor Mancino: Just the ordinance amendment and we have the new one in front of us that reads Section One, Chapter 20-906. Alternate lot size requirements in A2 and Rural Residential Zoning Districts of the Chanhassen City Code is amended by adding the following language in bold. t. A one unit per t0 acre density is maintained. This requirement shall not apply to lots of record in existence on January 15, 1987 or lots created thereafter if they were subject to a pending subdivision application on that date and the lots were created as a result of that application. Section 2. This ordinance shall be effective immediately upon it's passage and publication. Correct? Then may I have a motion please. Councilman Senn: Move approval. Mayor Mancino: And is there a second? Councilman Engel: Second. Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Engel seconded that the City Council approve Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Section 20-906. Alternate lot size requirements in A-2 and RR, Residential Zoning Districts by adding the following language: (8) Existing parcels of record established prior to the effective date of this zoning ordinance shall be deemed buildable lots. This provision also applies to those lots affected by item t0 of this section. (9) All lots shall have the minimum frontage on a public road as regulated in Section 20-575 and 20- 595. To reduce the number of driveways on collectors and arterials, up to two (2) parcels will be allowed to be accessed by a private easement. (t0) Applications for subdivision in the rural service area as identified in the comprehensive plan to contain a development density of one unit per 2 ½ acres were accepted on or before January t 5, 1987, provided the following information was submitted to the Planning Department: a. Completion of the Application for Subdivision. b. Submission of the public hearing list of surrounding property owners. c. Submission of a boundary survey with the proposed lot pattern. 47 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 d. Submission of required application fees. Further, these applications must also submit addition data required for preliminary plat approval in a manner which will achieve preliminary plan approval by July 1, 1987 unless the City Council deems to table final action on the application after July 1, 1987. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. CONSIDER AMENDMENT TO ARTICLE XXV~ SECTION 20-1176~ LANDSCAPING & TREE REMOVAL TO CHANGE BUFFER YARD REQUIREMENTS FOR NEW DEVELOPMENTS. Kate Aanenson: Thank you. Again I'm not going to go through the entire ordinance but just give you the background on this. This is a discussion item that was brought up in a work session by the Planning Commission. Just some ambiguity in the ordinance. They asked for staff to come back with some clarity on these proposed recommended ordinance amendments are a result of the staff's response to the Planning Commission and we think that it will help not only the staff, the Planning Commission and Council but also applicants understand and give some flexibility. I'd be happy to answer any questions that you may have. Mayor Mancino: Any questions for staff? Councilman Engel: Did we deal before, I've been out, bringing topsoil on as part of the development or is that another? Kate Aanenson: That is one that's coming back. We have a glitch ordinance going to the Planning Commission on August 15th. We've got 6, 7 areas we're going to go back and clarity. That's one of them. Councilman Engel: Okay. So it's not, we're not dealing with that here but we are still on our radar? Kate Aanenson: Correct. That will be going to Planning Commission in August. Councilman Engel: Just didn't want to pass up my only opportunity. Councilman Senn: What kind of vote does this require? Kate Aanenson: Roger Knutson: Kate Aanenson: Roger Knutson: Kate Aanenson: Roger Knutson: Councilman Senn: For ordinance amendment it requires four votes. This isn't a zoning ordinance is it? This is zoning ordinance amendment. Yeah, it's part of the zoning ordinance. Correct. Four votes. Okay, then I think you probably want to table it til the next meeting. 48 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: Why? Councilman Senn: Because I, as long as you're changing the onus of the ordinance that we spent a lot of time creating, providing the separation to put it all back 100% on the developer I think is unfair. Kate Aanenson: Well let me clarify that. We haven't. What we did is, instead of saying 70, we put the 100% back but the number is still the same. The reason we took the 70, nobody could figure out where the other 25%. It's still the same number of trees but we called it 100%. Everybody couldn't understand why we're calling it 75% when they're responsible for the whole thing so really it's nomenclature. We just said we'll call it 100% but we're using the same factors so then it will change. Mayor Mancino: So it doesn't increase how much the developer has to put, Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: Well you've got to explain that one to me because it says directly right here that it does. It says when the parcel abuts public property such as roads or parks, the developer shall be responsible for 100% of the required plantings. Councilwoman Jansen: Can I ask a question? To follow that one up. Mayor Mancino: You get. Councilwoman Jansen: So currently in this situation, when it abuts public property, does the city put the other 25% in or do we just. Kate Aanenson: Well we have circumstances that if it's against a city park, for example that we would put 100% in. If it's a developer against a city street, there may be streetscape already in place. We've had to work through that and that's something that we've looked at where we don't want to have overkill. We've had this discussion come up before where there's already streetscape in place and if we're diluting that by putting too much in place, but for example projects where the city is doing a rural project. As a general rule we require streetscape. Any public project you can order it. For example we will on the frontage road on Highway 5 require streetscape. So the percentage, what we're saying is there's nobody that would match that other percent so. Councilwoman Jansen: Understood. Councilman Senn: Streetscape is done through other ordinances and site plan review and approvals and all that. It's not part of this. Kate Aanenson: I think it'd be helpful. We could bring the charts back if that would give you additional... Councilwoman Jansen: And I just wanted a little history to see what we had been doing on that. Kate Aanenson: Sure, but I think if you can see the factors that would change and I'll put that in with the next one. Mayor Mancino: The other thing that I'd like to add then, since we're doing this, is that I've noticed on some of the streetscape that we have required of developers, that they're not the quality of the trees are like park quality trees. I mean they're not good quality so if you go around, some of the area around 41 and 49 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Lake Lucy Road. Some of them are dead. Some of them there, I mean they're not good quality trees that the developers are putting up so we might want to, if you could, if staff could look at that in some of the newer areas and see what's being used as streetscape and boulevard trees. Kate Aanenson: So you're talking species, is that what you're saying? Mayor Mancino: No. The quality of the species that's being planted. Councilman Senn: You think it's a wrong species? Mayor Mancino: No, there's a different grade of trees. You can buy a Grade 1, a Grade 2, a Grade 3 or a Park Grade. The Park Grade ones are ones that have something almost wrong with them. I mean they're not full. They're not. Councilwoman Jansen: They're not perfect. Mayor Mancino: Yeah. And not that they have to be perfect perfect but if you go around and look, I think we should just be looking at that. I mean because there are boulevard trees. So can we have a motion to. Councilwoman Jansen: Can I ask one more question? Mayor Mancino: Sure. Councilwoman Jansen: I realize we're not going to address this tonight but the 3 foot berm. I think ofa 3 foot berm and these shrubs can get anywhere from 10 to 12 feet if you let them go so I'm picturing we're getting a bump for what would have been fairly tall vegetation. Why did we stop at 3 feet instead of saying, I always thing of berms starting at 6 feet? Kate Aanenson: Well the reason for that is, to be able to water and maintain the survivability of the tree. Really if it's too steep then you're going to have water running off. It's not going to be able to grow and maintain. So if you get them too steep that's going to be the problem. Councilwoman Jansen: So it's the feature of the slope and the drainage? Kate Aanenson: Right. And especially if it's severe conditions, it's going to have a hard time. Mayor Mancino: Then may I have a motion to table this please and a second. Councilwoman Jansen: Move to table. Councilman Senn: Second. Councilwoman Jansen moved, Councilman Senn seconded to table an Amendment to Article XX¥, Section 20-1176, Landscaping and Tree Removal to Change Buffer Yard Requirements to New Development. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. CONSIDER AMENDMENT TO CITY CODE REGARDING DISCHARGE OF FIREARMS IN THE CITY (HUNTING ZONES). 50 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Scott Botcher: Well what we have in front of you, and this was here last week and it was tabled, is a proposed ordinance amendment as prepared by the City Attorney. Included in there is a map that shows where hunting is currently allowed. I was asked to check with the City of Chaska what they do, so that's in that middle paragraph. Todd also made contact with the goose people at the DNR and he has a report in there as well. And really this started if you recall is that we tried to figure out to clean up our hunting map, which we've done, and the council has since then just gone on a discussion of policy as it relates to hunting and discharge of firearms in the city, which is really what you're discussing, is the discharge of equipment in the city so, it is back. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Roger Knutson: You notice Mayor I did the easy part. You've got to figure out the map. Scott Botcher: We've seen this now for 3 months or so so I think we've got all the little ning nings cleaned up. The yellow blob is gone. I think we're okay. But as soon as I say that, what happens? Mayor Mancino: Would anyone like to come and address the council on this issue? Councilwoman Jansen: I had a couple questions for staff if... Mayor Mancino: Okay, is there anyone who would like to address the council? Okay. Why don't we ask the questions first so you can kind of hear those too and then comment on those. Councilwoman Jansen: Thank you. Scott, are you leaving? Scott Botcher: Oh no. Councilwoman Jansen: There were two properties, and you were able to find one of them. The first that I had asked about was actually, if you look on your maps, the blue blob down in the southern portion of the community off of Pioneer Trail. It is actually platted. So is that a mistake that that is still indicated as bow hunting in that our regulations say not allowed on any platted low? Scott Botcher: Yep. That is a mistake. Councilwoman Jansen: So that's a mistake? Scott Botcher: He is, and I'll defer to Roger on this. He is seeking to have property unplatted, is that the term? Councilman Engel: Yeah, he's not doing anything with that. He's not building at all. Scott Botcher: He's platted, you're right. Councilwoman Jansen: I thought he came in for an extension, didn't he? Roger Knutson: Many times. 51 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilwoman Jansen: Recently that I remember. Councilman Senn: Now he's going to unextend it? Mayor Mancino: Yeah, now he wants to unextend it. Roger Knutson: I don't know if that's the proper word, unplat it but yes. Scott Botcher: We'll use it. Roger Knutson: The property is unplatted. Scott Botcher: Well not yet. Councilman Engel: Abandoned. Roger Knutson: We're going to court shortly and it will be unplatted. Scott Botcher: If we can agree. Or the court tells us. Roger Knutson: Yes. It will happen. That's not even contested. Scott Botcher: Oh really, okay. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. And then the only other property that came up as a question was the southern border to Mission Hills. We're showing a 500 foot buffer and that's not reflected on the map. It would seem to reduce those two properties almost to half the area. So I guess more in looking at that in the fact that they do immediately abut those homes, I didn't know at what point do you take a property out of the hunting zone because it is right up against the residential? How do you mark 500 feet when you're in the field? Scott Botcher: We'll just have Vicki see what the computer can do, but in the field. Mayor Mancino: State law. They have to be, they can't be within 500 feet of a building. That's State regulations. Scott Botcher: Yeah but I think she's asking like a practical question. How do you know if you're 500 feet, I don't know. I mean how do you know if somebody's hunting. Councilwoman Jansen: Does somebody march it off? Councilman Senn: Where'd Todd go? I thought he said they mark that off or something. Mayor Mancino: Well what does the State law say? I mean besides saying 500 feet, do they have to say you mark it off or I mean I don't know, I don't hunt. So State law is resting on the individual hunters ability to know what 500 feet is, correct? And if they get caught, if neighbors. 52 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Senn: Well more than that. You could be ticketed and your guns confiscated and all kinds of things. Scott Botcher: The onus is on them. It's like fishing or anything else. I mean that's, you get a license and with it comes responsibilities. Mayor Mancino: And so I'm assuming that the way to keep the law working is that if neighbors or anyone else sees somebody too close to their property, they call 911 to get the police over and say they're within 500 feet. Scott Botcher: Yep. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Just wondering how it all works. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. So there really isn't a way, I know that we post no hunting. I've seen no hunting signs. Are properties ever posted for hunting so that people during hunting season know that those areas are in fact open? I'm thinking of all the new residents that come into the community and now around that southern portion, just so they're conscious and with their kids. Scott Botcher: Well my belief is most the time that they're going to post it no hunting and they're not going to post it for hunting because they probably have a lease arrangement with somebody and they're getting paid for it. So they don't want every Joe Schmoe coming on the property hunting. Councilwoman Jansen: Well you have to have permissions, correct? Scott Botcher: Sure, yeah but right. Roger Knutson: This ordinance does not give you permission to go on someone else's property. Councilwoman Jansen: Understood. Roger Knutson: What you normally would do, and I'm not really a hunter, but I've never seen a hunting permitted sign. I suppose you can put them up but normally what you do is you go and ask the property owners, is it alright if I hunt on your property. Councilwoman Jansen: Understood. And more of my question is more to those folks that live in the area and aren't familiar with this happening so that they're conscious and currently the property owners are good about it, they remind neighbors that they do know and are familiar with, to stay out during the season and they act accordingly. I'm thinking more of our young people that we maybe aren't as watchful of, that we may want to have them be more conscious during the hunting seasons, and how do we do that? Without sending notifications out to everyone, that's where I was just pondering the. Scott Botcher: Well I would just guess, I mean if you send a notification to a house, the kids don't read it. I mean mom and dad are practically I think mom and dad read. I don't know the answer to that and I guess. 53 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: My question is, how many people have called to say that they didn't know that hunting was allowed in their area. Do we have very many calls like that? So that people even know if it's going on or not. Todd Gerhardt: I'm sure there's probably been an occasional call. Councilwoman Jansen: And those calls go into the sheriff's department. Councilman Senn: I asked Todd if we had any calls or complaints last year. He said one. Scott Botcher: I've never gotten any but they very well could go to the county. Mayor Mancino: And it might be wise just to tell Sgt. Potts, you know see if we start getting some. You know, so that we know if we should start educating more widely about it because people are concerned. Does that make sense? Councilwoman Jansen: And not wanting to make it any bigger a deal than it needs to be but taking into account how many new families have moved into the area, trying to maybe be just a titch more proactive versus reactive. Okay. Mayor Mancino: Good point. Yes. Rob Evenson: My name is Rob Evenson. I live in Chanhassen and there was a lot of people that couldn't be here tonight and one is Dr. Leonard. He's the head of surgery at the University of Minnesota, and Doc hunts over in the Fox and Jeurissen land. The big green section here. You were talking about how were people going to know and safety for children and for some reason Chanhassen is very lucky because the amount of people that are hunting, there's never been a hunting accident or a hunting incident and one of those things is you've got responsible hunters. They've been hunting here for years. They know the laws. You were talking about 500 feet. Most guys that are out hunting, we can pretty well judge it. That's about 1 ½ football fields. Okay. And it's kind of easy to say, well we're at least a football field away and more. And most the people that are hunting are well over 500 feet. A shotgun, ifI was standing 100 yards away and somebody shot at me with a shotgun, it would bounce off. It would just bounce off. Councilman Engel: We know those measurements. Rob Evenson: A shotgun slug, for those people that slug hunt with deer and stuff, 150 yards is, you're pretty safe. But the people, you've never had an incident so people obviously that are slug hunting say, there is a deer. I'll shoot the deer and they look. And there's nothing in the way and they shoot at the deer. Same with discharging a firearm. Mayor Mancino: What's the difference between slug hunting and discharging a firearm? Rob Evenson: I'm a bow hunter but. Mayor Mancino: That's the bow hunting, and the slug is just the regular bullet. Rob Evenson: ... so you take a shotgun like we hunt for geese or ducks, and it's bird shot. And that's what we shoot at the birds. But for deer hunting it's one single projectile, which is a slug. And normally when 54 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 we're goose hunting there's a bunch of people so right away there's a safety issue, and everybody that's hunted since they were a little boy, they've gone through all the safety stuff, knows that you keep the muzzle pointed forward and we're all trying to look out for each other. And you're trying to watch and pick the right shots. And I do that. These fellows do that. So you've got a good group of people that are responsible to start with. Secondly, they don't want to lose the right to hunt. We'd like to continue hunting. There are several cities that have goose problems who have tried to net them and then move them to Oklahoma or wherever. They fly right back here. Poisoning them. That's bogus. We would even say that if it gets to the point where there's a big problem with geese, you've got hunters that can take care of the problem, that would even be willing to pay a little higher fee and/or start a little fund where we could bring them someplace and have them processed and give them to food shelves. I mean we'd be willing to do that. Would you be willing to do that? So, it could be a win/win deal and you don't have a big influx of 900 hunters wanting to come in here and hunt. It's pretty much the same groups isolated to a few areas. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Rob Evenson: I'm standing up here because this is something I really wanted to do and if there's any other questions, I'd like to try to field them ifI can. Mayor Mancino: Okay, any other questions? Rob Evenson: Are you going to vote on this tonight? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Rob Evenson: You are? Would it be possible, we have some other people and one attorney that hunts with us that would like to maybe come back here when the entire council is here because we don't want to let a good chance slip through our hands. Not that you're going to vote against us, but we'd like every opportunity to. Mayor Mancino: To be heard. Rob Evenson: To be heard and present our case. And the other thing, if we can't do that, I would just suggest this and then I'll go sit down. Being that everybody's all geared up to hunt this year and they paid their money for the land for leases as we have, maybe you can table making a decision, if it's a nay decision, and let the season go through with everybody's input and after the season's over with, take a look at how many calls you got. How many incidents there may have been or whatever and then we've got a whole year to talk about this whole thing and if it comes to an end, it comes to an end but a lot of people have laid out a lot of money for decoys and leased land and everything now in hopes of this. Paid license fees and so on. That's it. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Those are a couple good suggestions. Anybody else wishing to address the council? Jeff Byrne: Should I state my name? Mayor Mancino: Your name and address please. 55 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Jeff Byrne: My name is Jeff Byrne at 7926 Zinnia Street, Victoria. I guess I'm sorry I'm late. I just got done working. The question I guess I had for you, in looking at it was a discharge of firearms. Is that what you're going to be voting on tonight? I guess the reason why is, and I know Rob and some of the guys bow hunt, is your classification of firearms because in most municipalities a bow is the same as a shotgun or rifle or anything else so if there is a bow hunt and you say that there's no discharge of firearms, I just want you to know whether you're including the archery people or not. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Roger Knutson: By definition a bow would be a discharge of a firearm. The way we define the term. Mayor Mancino: Legally that's. Roger Knutson: That's by our definition of it. We picked up bows as well. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Jeff Byrne: Is it, where are, I guess I'm curious, where is the problem mostly that, I didn't get a chance to see the map here. Mayor Mancino: I think the philosophically the overall Jeff, question is, as far as should we be allowing it near residential areas that have just become established, etc and just safety. Are we feeling safe? We haven't decided whether we're going to or not change anything. We're just looking at it. Councilwoman Jansen wanted this brought up and we're looking at it to say should we be changing it. You know what is it right now? Etc, so nobody has made any requests for changes. Jeff Byrne: Will you vote on tonight whether or not the change will be made or is this. Mayor Mancino: Well that's what we're going to discuss in a few minutes. Whether we're going to vote on it. Whether we'll table it. Whether we'll say for you know, to get more public input, which has been requested. Or let it be the way it is for the next year and you know gather data. We haven't decided that. Councilman Senn: As a point of clarification, if I could for him, and maybe for us too. Roger, my understanding is that what's before us tonight is a effectively amendment or change to the ordinance. And essentially if we vote not to enact that change in the ordinance, the existing ordinance stays in place as well as the existing identified areas on the maps they have designated. If we choose to amend the new ordinance and adopt it in it's new form, then we need to undertake a discussion of what areas are what as it relates to the new ordinance, correct? Roger Knutson: Correct. Councilman Senn: Okay. Councilman Engel: So we ought to go to some comments here on the council's side. Mayor Mancino: So when you're done we'll be talking about it as a council. 56 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Jeff Byrne: Okay. I know that the local game warden, both Steve Walters and Mr. Zynensky who weren't able to make it here tonight but I did talk to them and I know that they've been to some of the meetings in the past and for those guys being game officers, they actually would like to see, and not necessarily just shotguns but also the archery, more areas in Chanhassen expanded because of the no hunting north of Highway 5 ordinance that's been in for a long time. They realize with the amount of houses being built that all the deer get pushed into certain areas even north of Highway 5 where there's a lot of deer problems. Not only with just road kill but just with some of the people complaining about their vegetation and we get people in my store all the time asking what can we do to get rid of the deer. It's a constant problem all the time. They're buying different deer scents and everything else trying to put them around their other type of scents to keep them away. So I guess their feeling is they'd like to see more areas open even to the bow hunting so, thank you. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Rob Evenson: Could I say something about that? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Rob Evenson: In regard to bow hunting. Safety issues. Usually it's on private land and to fire or discharge a bow is a lot different than a gun, because it's an up close and personal encounter. The average shot is probably 12 to 15 yards. And unlike a rifle with some of the idiots that hunt that make sound shots. Those are people you don't want to hunt with anyway. They hear a noise and do that. Bow hunting is not that way. You have to physically see what you're shooting at and then there's a point that you want to shoot at it and you've got to focus and look. You have to identify it. I mean if it's a human being or a cow or whatever, it's odd because you're looking at it for a long time before you can make that shot and they don't go ricocheting off. They merely stick in the ground. It's a really safe sport. The only danger to the sport is somebody falling out of a tree. Councilman Engel: It might happen. Rob Evenson: Sometimes that happens so they have to be careful but there are a lot of deer in Chan and I just went through a deal with Eden Prairie. I used to live in Eden Prairie years back. They're on this kick that they're going to eradicate all the deer in Eden Prairie so they hire sharp shooters. We heard $50 a deer. We're only going to shoot 150 deer, la de da da de. Car deer collisions and so on. They don't want the hunters to take care of it so they hire people to come in from New York, sharp shooters that 24/7, around the clock. They spot a deer, they can shoot it because they're sharp shooters. I mean if you were walking a baby buggy down and there was a deer over there, and they pull up and you're out of range, they're going to shoot the deer. We found out that it was $250 and they were shooting 200 deer plus a year. But they kept it real quiet because they didn't want everybody to know that they were using public tax dollars to pay for all this Mickey Mouse and then they say that they're sending 400 deer, 300 deer to a processing plant. Some butcher and then it's going to a food shelf. Well we're going to find out where these food shelves are and who this butcher is. Hunting is a good way to control. I wouldn't say escalate hunting any more. I mean there might be a few pockets like Jeff alluded to but pretty much use the same hunters. A lot of us are professionals. I am. I know Jeff is. I basically shoot for a lot of manufacturers in the archery area. We can effectively take care of a deer population but if you ban hunting, or ban discharging firearms, if you took, if there were 200 deer say in Chanhassen. Half of them were does, and half the does get bred, they're going to have 2 fawns. And the next year those fawns are yearlings and they're going to get bred. In 3 years you're going to have 600 deer. In 6 years you're going to have well 57 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 over 1,000 deer. You're going to have car/deer collisions and everything going on so maybe we want to think real carefully about the situation that's before us. I think hunters can keep things in check. Just do it in those pockets that need to be done. I don't know what else to say but. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Anyone else? Let's bring this back to council for discussion. Councilwoman Jansen: If I could start by a little clarification, and the reason that this is before us tonight is that council wanted to review the map and be familiar with the hunting zones. It wasn't my calling for a re-evaluation of whether or not there would be hunting in Chanhassen. Please don't get the impression that I don't understand the whole hunting issue. But as it stood we have such a vague map. You know staff even said to us that we weren't quite clear you know where it was designated currently, and hence some of my questions in regards to the map tonight as to a couple of these situations that I think we need to be at least sensitive to, if not correct. If this one is a mistake. But please, and it wasn't. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, I mean I thought you wanted it clarified and you were concerned with the Mission Hills area when we brought it up. Councilwoman Jansen: And that's what I've mentioned as far as these properties that directly abut. Mayor Mancino: And that's okay. Councilwoman Jansen: But I think they were ready to shoot me out here, right? Mayor Mancino: No. They can't process you. Councilwoman Jansen: They wouldn't take me at the food shelves. Rob Evenson: You're a nice lady... Councilwoman Jansen: No, I'm more so would just like for us to concentrate more on the policy piece of this and I'm not saying that I'm totally comfortable with some of these areas. You know frankly I'm not and I understand that the majority of hunters are, they practice best practices and we don't have to worry. It's that other 1% that I get a little concerned about in the community when some of these zones are very close to where we have new housing development. We have residents who aren't necessarily conscious of the hunting zones, and I don't know how far we go as far as notification. It will be a surprise when the first season rolls around and they start hearing the gun shots but you know, everyone who moves in to the southern part of the community kind of goes through that. You don't anticipate that the hunting is within city limits. And it just, it becomes a fact of life and I have had, since I'm from that area, I have had many people bring it up to me in regards to their being concerned that hunting is still allowed within city limits. And so the time is coming that we may have to take a closer look at it. I mean Chaska, I was surprised to hear doesn't allow any gun fire within the community. And that the bow hunting is within restricted seasons. I'm not looking to go that extreme. It seems a little odd and the one gentleman just said a no hunting ordinance north of 5, and we do have hunting zones that are. Mayor Mancino: Bow hunting. Just bow hunting north of 5. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. 58 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: But there is no farms. Jeff Byme: I don't think you can legally hunt north of Highway 5 anyway. Councilwoman Jansen: Even with bows? Mayor Mancino: Yes, there are a couple. Councilman Engel: We've got four zones that are bow. Councilwoman Jansen: See now you've found opportunities here tonight. Mayor Mancino: You haven't been able to do, you know what I call firearms. Not bow hunting, north of 5 for a long time. I mean guns, yeah exactly. Guns, but you have been able to do bow hunting. Councilwoman Jansen: And I don't know if other communities do anything more proactively that do still have hunting zones within their city limits. That too might be of interest. Mayor Mancino: Well, let's hear from other council members too. I mean we haven't had any problems. We probably do have some people that are concerned and need to know where you can hunt and where you can't hunt. But obviously we haven't been proactive because there haven't been any problems to be proactive about but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't let people know where you can and where you can't so I think that that is important. Councilman Engel, any comments that you want to make about it? Councilman Engel: Well yeah, I might be a little Neanderthal in my thinking on some of this stuff because of where I grew up but. Where I grew up, you can still rifle hunt and skip a shot off the Missouri River from time to time and it might hit a house, and I know that sounds bad. It doesn't happen all the time, but there's not a distinction made here when we say firearms between say shotguns and rifles, and I know you asked the question, what's the difference between a slug and okay .... and the lethalness of each weapon, so when you say guns are bad. Guns are dangerous. Yeah, if you were firing rifles around here, it'd be pretty dangerous. I'd be the first to admit that. But we're not talking about rifles. We're talking about shotguns. They have a fairly limited range, especially, you look in these fields that are colored green and the only one that's really at risk is the one on the comer of 18 and 101, and I've shot in that field before. And the proper shot is to the north and there's no way those bb's are going to land on anything but sunflowers or corn or weeds. Mayor Mancino: Where? Councilman Engel: That one on the comer of 18 and 101. Where the S tums to the south. Right here. Mayor Mancino: Oh okay. Councilman Engel: That one. That's the only one. If you get caught and you've got some people that are shooting to the west, and they get some bb's up in the air, they'll bounce off the roofs or the decks and I think that did happen last year. You had some rummies in that field one day and they'll bounce off but they're, I won't say they're harmless but they are pretty harmless from that distance, and that's not to say it's excused but you take care of that in the field and hopefully you can keep those kinds of people out or you can educate them. It's not a good idea. But those bb's, you've over to the east side of that field if you 59 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 look at it when you shoot. You're not over by the road. So you've got all that land for the bb's to pass over and usually you're not shooting that way because everybody knows there's a road there. And so that's the only one you look at that's even I think remotely close to being dangerous to still continue firing shotguns and everything else would be pretty safe. So I don't have a problem with any of these. I don't think we need to change, from that standpoint, from a safety standpoint and from a population control, I think it's ridiculous how many geese can take off and we talked about deer. Deer are pretty bad. Geese are worse. I mean if we don't thin these things out, they're already pretty bad. We don't take enough of them as it is. And I think it's a good idea, talking about these food shelves programs. I don't know if we could start something. Maybe Hoffman could get together on a donation program. Mayor Mancino: That's a good idea. Councilman Engel: To come and drop them off. Todd, he's networked into a lot of these places anyway. He knows the shooters. He could probably help out. Working something out where the hunters can drop them off and let them be processed. Mayor Mancino: So, I'm assuming here that the geese, the goose season is in September for 3 weeks. And that's it. No other time during the year. Rob Evenson: It goes right through until November. Actually into December. Councilman Engel: The early one is what we're talking about. Mayor Mancino: Well it says in 1999 this season ran from September 4th to the 22nd. Councilman Engel: That was the early season. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Then there's a late season? Rob Evenson: Then it's.., for a while and then it goes to the regular season... Mayor Mancino: Okay. Scott Botcher: I think I sent each of you the page from the DNR web site. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, I didn't get it. Okay. Councilman Engel: So I don't think we need to change in the ordinance. I know eventually we will develop to the point where we're just going to get too compact and some of these things are going to go away. Certainly the shotgun hunting but bow hunting can last a long time, and with bow hunting, that's even less lethal because... Mayor Mancino: You're shooting down. Councilman Engel: You're down. Your angle of fire is at 45 degrees. If you miss you're going right into the ground. It's very rare that guys are still hunting on the ground. Even if they are, arrows don't make it through trees the way a stray round from a true firearm does. So bow hunting is going to be safe for a long, long time. 60 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn. I don't mean to cut you off. Councilman Senn: I think the existing ordinance is fine the way it is. I think the existing maps are fine the way they are for the time being. I've received no complaints on this myself one way or the other. Todd told me we had one call last year. I hate to say it, I get a lot more complaints on snowmobiles than I've ever gotten on hunting. So if we're basing it on complaints, I think we ought to be considering that one first because those complaints never cease. So I wouldn't favor any action on the existing ordinance other than leaving it in place and leaving the map in place. I would however favor looking at some type of a new or different program or way to aid in the goose population control. Because we're now doing a very poor job and even what we do do, spend a fair amount of money doing it which I'm not sure is all that necessary so I think that's something we should take a peek at. Going forward. And again for now, that's something that is ultimately going to change and for whatever it's worth, Councilman Labatt asked me to mention that.., leave it. Mayor Mancino: The way it is. Councilman Senn: The map where it is. For whatever it's worth. Mayor Mancino: Okay. I'll add a couple of comments. Number one. I guess I'm okay with keeping it the way it is. I do have some sensitivity about it so what I would really like to make sure is that this year, that we do collect data from, if we could with Scott and Todd. Anyone does call in, that we get it down. Who called. Date. What their concern is. Any of those incidents. We also let Carver County deputies know. Councilwoman Jansen: And the dispatch line. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, the dispatch. That they also give us that information on any calls that we have and I'm also asking all council members, if you get an e-mail or if you get a call from someone, that you do e- mail all of us and let us know you know what the concern was. Who it was and what the address was. Where they live and what they have a concern about. And then let's look at all that data that we have and again, if we get a lot of it, let's look at it. Say do we need to change the map? What do we need to do to do it right? Do we need to do more, better education as to where these areas are, etc, but let's start collecting the data so we know what to do with it and let's also try and do some sort of development for the geese meat for food shelves. And working with, I don't know if that's Todd Hoffman, etc, but if someone from staff and your group can do that, great. That would be wonderful. And find out, we'd like to know what the program is, etc and go forward with that. Rob Evenson made a comment from the audience that was not picked up on tape. Mayor Mancino: Okay. I don't know. Anybody want to add something else? Linda? Councilwoman Jansen: I like what you've given as far as direction and I'm just curious on timing with the Highway 5 frontage road project starting. Does that affect any of, or do we just, does that affect the bow hunting that's right in the area of the Highway 5 construction? Councilman Engel: Yeah, the bow hunters won't want to go there. They won't waste their time there if there's trucks all around. 61 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilwoman Jansen: Or if they're out there doing the surveying and I don't know what the timing is on the construction. Mayor Mancino: Well furthermore, if I look at this, number one. Rosie's petting farm is not going to want bow hunting on there. If Pulte comes in, they're not going to want to have it, so I think it kind of, we'll have to adjust this accordingly. Yeah, I mean I would think if Pulte comes in or if Longacres comes in, I mean the map as we develop these areas will be changed because you can see north of 5, I think the Carlson property. Jerome Carlson's is still there and that one's open, but they'll be, those properties along Highway 5 that will be developing, that will be deleted from the map obviously. I mean you don't want to be there either so, thank you for coming tonight. Rob Evenson: Thank you. No decision tonight? Mayor Mancino: So do we have to have a motion or nothing? Councilman Senn: Not if we're going to leave the existing ordinance. Roger Knutson: If you want to leave it alone, you don't have to have a motion. If you want to, you could move to do nothing, but you don't need to do that. Mayor Mancino: I don't think we need to do anything. We're not going to do anything. Okay. Rob Evenson: ...tape of this meeting? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Rob Evenson: Could I get one? Because I'd like to, with some of these other cities that are absolutely, you people have been absolutely wonderful. You've received us, the hunters are always the bad guys. Mayor Mancino: But will you guys also tell us what would be helpful, you know I want to put it on the line. I mean if you guys hear people complaining or if there's an area or something, will you let us know too? I mean if you see hunters that are out there that aren't doing a good job, etc. Rob Evenson: Oh yeah, because they make us look bad. Mayor Mancino: Because they're going to make you look bad and we need to know that. Rob Evenson: We've got cell phones and we just call Steve Wakers if something's going on. And sometimes, sometimes people moving in, a mother driving home from the supermarket or something, that just doesn't like hunters. Might be an anti-hunter or something, they'll call in even though nothing happened. And that's real tough for us to prove something but like we're, where this gentleman hunts, it's really hard on 101 and it's really hard. You'd have to have a cannon to hit the road or a house. Now someone may say, oh those darn hunters. I'm going to go call the County and nothing really happens. Councilman Senn: When we call we get their location so I mean that's all factored in. Rob Evenson: Okay. No, we'll work with you. We've had to call you many time. 62 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Engel: Yep, I remember. Audience: And I'm in charge there of the property of the.., and right away, officers came out and told us they couldn't believe it. They said the pellets fell on that fella's roof. Over 800 yards and we're 500, more than 500 from the road. So I moved all our people back and no shooting in that direction at all. Councilman Engel: He had some extenuating circumstances too. Audience: ... 20 years and that's the first bad complaint we've had. Councilman Engel: And it was a stiff, like 30 some mile an hour wind going directly to the west, and without that wind they never would have even... Mayor Mancino: But you guys also, just remember people that are, as you know, who's moving into our community. Young families with a lot of kids, and that's a difference. I mean you know, you came up for the 3rd and 4th celebration, you saw all the young kids in the community so be even more careful. Rob Evenson: Thank you. The only way you're going to keep 101 and 7 open right there is... Scott Botcher: If you want a copy, sir if you want a copy, what you need to do is just bring a video cassette, right Nann? A VCR tape here. Just take it upstairs to City Hall and Vicki and Karen will take care of you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Rob Evenson: Sorry to keep you up so late. CONSIDER AMENDMENT TO CITY CODE SECTION 13-3 CONCERNING NUISANCE LIGHT ON RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES. Scott Botcher: We presented last work session two ordinances that Roger drafted. One was I think under the nuisance part of the zoning, under the code if I remember. And that was not received as favorably as this one, which was a more, more of a lighting nuisance on residential properties sort of ordinance. The Community Development Director indicated that we do not have any ordinances currently governing light nuisance on residential properties and so this ordinance then made it to you guys for your consideration. This was obviously a response to some direction given to Roger to deal with some of the Christmas lighting, holiday lighting issues that we have in the community. Obviously enforcement is going to be an issue. On any ordinance but particularly something like this. This does have some practical applications, and as I mentioned last time, you get some of these neighborhood battles and we had a gentleman speak to us last time and he and his neighbor are sort of not getting along so well and it certainly could happen that one or the other would slap up a big, huge silly vapor light right on the property line and we would be largely powerless to deal with it so. That in a nutshell is what this does. I won't say that it's a perfect ordinance but at least it does quantify the foot candles that are allowed at the property line and at what level of lighting a nuisance then exists. Mayor Mancino: Any questions? Discussion? 63 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Senn: We had most of that last time. Mayor Mancino: I know. Any other discussion? Any new discussion? Councilman Senn: If any of you who weren't there that would like to talk about it? Councilman Engel: Is this aimed specifically at the Christmas light thing on Lucy? Mayor Mancino: It's just others too. Councilwoman Jansen: Well, we don't have a lighting ordinance at this point for residential. We have it, as what we talked about, we have for commercial and. Councilman Engel: What does this do to the guy on Lake Lucy? Let's just. Scott Botcher: On who? Councilman Engel: The house. Scott Botcher: He can probably shoot deer from his house. Councilman Engel: He probably can spot them. In fact he can shine them, and I saw a couple there last time. He could have run them down. Scott Botcher: You know, he will have to abide by, if this ordinance is passed, this ordinance. And if you look at his property, I'm not a lighting guy but I'm going to guess, having done this in the past, that he's going to exceed the number of foot candles at the lot line. He'll have to mm them down. Take some stuff out. It will not eliminate it certainly, and just like, I have them on my gutters and it doesn't exceed the. Councilman Engel: Yeah, I guess I'm just concerned as I look at this, I don't know how much of a limitation it will put on him. You know as you can see it's very point to horizontal foot candles at 4 feet. Give it to me in English. Lights up, he's got 20,000 lights. You've got to pull 5 down. I don't know. And I don't think you'll know until he sets them up again and we get out there with our little instrumentation. Scott Botcher: All you have to, his van's still sitting, his big semi-trailer is still there and it's all loaded up. You raise the question for me for Roger. At the location where the alleged nuisance occurred, and I guess the only reason I'm familiar here, we had one of these in Delafield that we did have to use a couple times and we had. Mayor Mancino: Was it helpful? Scott Botcher: Actually it was. I mean it was. We used it in all of our residential subdivision. When new subdivision came in, we then identified, particularly where we had some decorative lighting that people would do as far as where they would put them. Now we measured it at the lot line. I guess my question for Roger is, it says where the alleged nuisance occurs. So if you're that guy on Lake Lucy Road, and the alleged nuisance occurs on the interior of his lot, and it doesn't spill over the lot line at a level exceeding this amount, is that a nuisance? 64 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Roger Knutson: That's a good point. We could clarify that. Say it's the lot line. Scott Botcher: And I don't think it would, I don't know how you, it's not like sound. You can measure sound and you can measure sound and you can measure, you know you measure it. If it's not crossing over into someone else's private property, all the property rights thing. How is it a nuisance? Councilman Senn: Well under our regular ordinances you measure it at the lot line. Scott Botcher: I'm just reading this right here. It doesn't say that. Roger Knutson: No it doesn't. Mayor Mancino: So we would need to add that. Roger Knutson: Change where the alleged nuisance occurs to the lot line. Scott Botcher: If that's what you want, and if you like the ordinance amendment. But do I still think we're going to have folks backed up on Lake Lucy Road? Yeah. Probably so. Councilman Engel: See and to me the bigger issue is probably traffic safety. I want to see the lights. I think everybody in the community. I won't say everybody. Obviously it's not everybody but a great majority of the people think it's a pretty festive thing. They think it's a neat thing. It's pretty distinctive. I think it draws people into the area in the month of December. Mayor Mancino: Well we're not. Councilman Engel: Well I'm just going to finish. It's more important for me to have the safety of the traffic flow handled with the barricades that we did last year. I think that's a larger issue than you know the lights spilling over onto a neighbors property. I've been next to some of these that are pretty bright. I just close my drapes. It's probably a larger issue. Can the guy get out of his driveway? We need to deal with that more than I think the lights. Personal opinion. Scott Botcher: Well and you know, we have to look at this as being applicable to more than one property so it does have some applicability. Councilman Senn: He could move the... Councilman Engel: Well and like I say, and that's why I say I'd like to address this from the standpoint of safety as oppose to. Scott Botcher: But I think frankly what we did last year, didn't do anything. I mean it may be, and Todd you went by there. It kept some of the driveways open, but I think practically, it's a heck of a lot more dangerous there than being in that field with hunters. I mean we've got little kids and babies. I mean it's just, it is a very dangerous place. 65 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Engel: You know and I guess I went there again last year. I didn't really see us doing anything. I didn't see barricades up like I thought we were going to have up in the driveways and on the comers. Councilman Senn: You know it's a dangerous place but you know, I tell you what. And we go over there a number of times. Everybody's creeping along at 5-10 mph... It's traffic calming at it's best because when you encounter it, people slow down and watch what they're doing. Scott Botcher: And the genesis of this point though was neighbors in and around the property asking us to do something with what is, and if I lived there, admittedly a nuisance. Councilman Senn: But again, we can only regulate. Scott Botcher: Understood. We don't regulate residential light right now, and we can certainly have, as we talked about before, the police officers do a better job of enforcing the no parking rules there. Is that going to be a lot of fun? No. It won't. Will it make it safer? Probably will. Many people just drive in circles and back and forth, but. Councilman Engel: I don't know. Isn't it actually safer to just, can you imagine the traffic if you didn't let them park and get out? I think you're better off letting them park and walk and just control the comer. Scott Botcher: If they don't get out of the car and walk on the property, in theory you have no pedestrians. In theory. I'm just, you know. Councilman Engel: Yeah, I agree but think of the nuisance of the cars on that road that don't move. You'll have portable grandstands known as cars parking for 10 minutes out in front. Scott Botcher: I bet last year when I had my string on the gutters. Councilman Engel: They were lining up in from of you house too? Yeah. Councilman Senn: Our whole discussion of the lighting issue though primarily focused around the fact that you know one resident does have the right to expect that they don't have to live in 24 hours of brightness or light in the confines of their own property so, essentially that doesn't just deal with this situation. It deals with other situations too. That's a logical extension of our existing nuisance ordinance as it relates to trying to keep those types of things effectively where they belong. You've got the right to do them but do them on your own property. Don't affect the neighbors. Mayor Mancino: And I think that was one of the neighbors major concerns. Number one, that the lights were on very late into the night, which obviously created longer traffic problems. Because it just went on and on all night so I think this helps having a time to it. Councilman Engel: So we're going 11:00 p.m. is like the thought on this? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Councilman Senn: I'll move approval with that one change. 66 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Engel: What is that change? Roger Knutson: It'd really be similar changes in roman (i), (ii) and, roman at (i) and (ii). Taking out the reference to at the location of the alleged property occurs reveals. Take that out and say, at the adjacent property line. Across the adjacent property line. Councilwoman Jansen: Second. Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded that the City Council adopt an ordinance amendment to Chapter 13 of the City Code Concerning Nuisances to Section 1. Section 13-3 of the Chanhassen City Code by amending a new subsection 24 to read as attached, with the following changes under c. Nuisance Determined (i) and (ii). Deleting the phrase "location where the alleged nuisance occurs" and adding in the language, "at the adjacent property line". All voted in favor, except Councilman Engel who abstained and the motion carried. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: Mayor Mancino: Councilwoman Jansen, you said you had a presentation. Councilwoman Jansen: Yeah, just to follow up on the work session minutes process. I had chatted with Mr. Knutson after the last meeting and basically looking at the fact that the majority of the detail information that we receive for our decision making occurs in those work sessions and it would seem helpful to either council people who can't be present, or just in going back and trying to recall information that we've been given, i.e. the background information on some of these projects, if there was a better set of minutes. And I'm not even going to the point of thinking that they need to be verbatim. That's a huge task and we already maybe over do that in regards to the fact that we have them now. Summary minutes are probably fine in regards to being sure that we're all on the same page as far as any direction that was given, or I know we can't take action but I do think we do give direction as to where we want staff to be going with something or what our thoughts are on an issue, to at least be able to review those summaries so that you heard what we think we said, and if we didn't say it right, we can correct that before things go down the road. So I wasn't intending for us to be, and Mr. Knutson has confirmed we're fine on the fact that you know we may not have approved work session minutes. Correct me if I'm wrong, from the, what is it first and third of the weeks, or the month, meetings. It's not as if we need to back up and cover ourselves statutorily. That what was explained to me was, we would be better served if we were keeping some sort of minutes of all of our work sessions and approving those as a council. Review and approve along with the other minutes. Scott Botcher: And I think Karen sent an e-mail out today and I guess I, and I'll take the blame for it. I thought Karen had been making sure those had been getting in your packet for approval. And it's never dawned on me they weren't. We went back and looked and they weren't. As she said in her e-mail, a bunch of the minutes are prepared and we've got I think what, 3 or 4 of these that are not yet prepared but folks are dictating their responsible portions. I mean for example, when Kate makes a presentation on something, Kate then is assigned the responsibility to do that portion of the work session minutes and that's just how we divide up the work load so we all, one person doesn't get dumped on it so. Mayor Mancino: That's a good idea. 67 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Scott Botcher: Karen is expecting to have these on the agenda to clean up all the approvals because I mean it'd be the way to do it, for the August 14th meeting. And then to stay current with that. I mean I think that would meet what you're wanting. We just have fallen behind in the approval process with this gap here. Councilwoman Jansen: Well and actually I don't, I don't know how crazy I am about thinking about going back and trying to verify you know the, and I realize they're just summary minutes but the only reason that I even noticed recently that I didn't have them was I was referring back to try to verify what I had in my notes compared to what might be in the summary minutes and that's when it was okay, but I don't want to go back and double check all of those. Scott Botcher: No, it's not a big deal. I mean we should have done it. We didn't. Mayor Mancino: Well I know we did it because I remember writing them in 1999 when we were doing the city manager. Scott Botcher: Yeah, on the 2000 ones. I mean we're current up until for some reason late spring of this year Todd. We sort of zipped out on them and I don't know why they got side tracked and. Councilwoman Jansen: And again I'm more concerned with what process are we the most comfortable with going forward so that we've got something in place as Mr. Knutson has said we need to have at least the summary minutes. But if we could speak to the issue of taping those sessions, because I know I'm always frantically taking notes and I'd rather just be listening. But I know then I don't have anything to fall back on then to be able to go back through what we talked about in these work sessions. Mayor Mancino: Let me just give you a practically speaking where I'm coming from. I think we should be doing summary minutes. I think that's a good idea so we can kind of go back and look at the summary from what people have said and having staff do that. I don't need to tape it, only because a lot of times when we get together again, or because we meet every Monday except for in the summer, or when we have regular meetings, I like to just sit and ask people, you know now where is this? Where we've come from, etc. I personally just don't feel a need to tape them all or to have verbatim minutes. I seem to be okay with the summary, and I have gone back and read them. But everybody else will have to say how you feel. I mean do we get people who ask for taped minutes? Scott Botcher: Occasionally. It's a very small demand. Mayor Mancino: Because nothing we do at the work session is anything that we vote on or, we have to have the conversations again before we vote on it anyway. Scott Botcher: Yeah, I think in the last year and some change I can think of maybe three tops. One was the school, during the school siting issue. They asked for it and then they never really came and got it. Mayor Mancino: But that was for a regular City Council meeting. Scott Botcher: Oh yes. Mayor Mancino: I'm talking about from a work session meeting. Have we ever had. Scott Botcher: To my knowledge no. 68 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Todd Gerhardt: Maybe once or twice. We only started the work session 2-3 years ago. Scott Botcher: And state law doesn't recognize them. I know you and Roger have talked about this. The work session is not an animal that exists. Todd Gerhardt: You can't make decisions at them. Councilwoman Jansen: And again, the issue that I'm raising, and of course Senn and I had our own little work session what last Monday. No one else was present and you may not feel the need to go back through that information but had I been absent from a meeting where staff was giving information and background, I'd ask for the tape. And if we're not going to have verbatim minutes, it's not that I'm asking for anything above and beyond. I'm just trying, I'm trying to come up with the easiest solution. Scott Botcher: And I guess if the council wanted to decide that we would then use an audio recording system of some sort at work session, I'm okay with that. I guess that begets my next question and that is, we should probably do that here. I mean I'm not sure we need to expending that lady's time and effort and money and city tax dollars to type up verbatim minutes when we have a tape. Because we do. And I guess I'd be willing to, I think that's a good idea but I think we ought to do it here as well. Todd Gerhardt: Well then how long do you keep them and where do you store them. Scott Botcher: Well state law will govern that, unless you want to set a city policy that is more restrictive than that. Roger Knutson: The Department of Administration and Public, the record retention schedule.., they've got everything you could ever dream on a record retention schedule. Scott Botcher: I don't want to know. Councilman Engel: Do we keep them here or do they store them at the cable company? Scott Botcher: On no, they're here. Councilman Engel: Because I mean they're televised. Mayor Mancino: But we re-use them. We don't keep them forever. Councilman Senn: Now we're on two separate issues. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, let's stick with work session. Scott Botcher: I think the idea of recording the minutes I think is a good one for the work session. I think it's a good idea. I just keep coming back, and every what, 6-9 months I bring this up and in my 14 years I've never had a city that took verbatim minutes and you and I I know have had that discussion. I don't think you have either in your experience and I just, I again, if we're going to do that, I think it's a good idea. We've got this here and what's actionable obviously are the motions. 69 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Todd Gerhardt: Nann, what do we get on one side of these micro cassettes? Nann Opheim: Half hour. Todd Gerhardt: Half hour. So even at a minimum of 2 hours, you're going to have 2 tapes that we're going to. Scott Botcher: And you'll still have, and I don't want to state it, you're going to have minutes like summary minutes like we've had for work sessions. From my way of thinking and my experience, they are more detailed than that. But they are certainly not verbatim, which goes on pages and pages and pages and pages and pages. So but it is up to you all I mean. Mayor Mancino: Let's have some other conversation. Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: Well I mean are we talking about work sessions? Mayor Mancino: Yeah, let's just stick with work sessions. Councilman Senn: As far as, how would I say this. Being the instigator and champion of starting up work sessions and being largely responsible for starting them now, you know real conscience decision was made at the time to do summary minutes and to not record meetings because one of the purposes of work sessions were to have people come in and have a very free, open exchange and dialogue, exchanging ideas. Again, we can take no actions in a work sessions or decide nothing in a work session. Anything that anybody wants to put on the record one way or another can be put on a record at the public meeting when in fact that decision is made. And I think to do otherwise would not so much impact us but impact effectively a lot of the people that we deal with or ask to come into a work session for that open and free exchange and exchange of ideas and stuff because they're going to view that as having some risks to it. When you throw them in front of a tape recorder. I would be opposed to that so I would like to see us consider with our summary minutes on the work sessions and just leave it at that. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Engel. Councilman Engel: Yeah, I'm the same way. It doesn't matter that we've got the camera and the tapes rolling here. People are aware of that and that's why I think you find, not as many people willing to go up there and grab that microphone if they're afraid they're going to say something that might embarrass them or they're just, they might feel silly about. They don't have that inhibition when they come to a meeting and sit down around a table and talk with you. And so those discussions are more, I'll say more productive to generate an idea on how we want to vote on something. And it's better held in that environment and I don't mind, in fact summary minutes are good idea to recap what happened but I'm not for taping them. I could case less that we do them now. We get taped all the time but I think it will hurt the participation outside of City Council people and that would not be good. Mayor Mancino: Then I would suggest, I mean if that's, you know kind of keep it the way we're going or doing. Making sure that we do have minutes is though to make sure if somebody isn't at a work session meeting, that another council member makes themselves available to, if that person wants to call and say what happened at the work session. What were the discussions over and above what's in the work session minutes so that they know what's going on. So they don't feel left out or that they haven't been privy to something at a work session. Just kind of give an update. 70 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Councilman Senn: Well better yet what I usually do is call staff on the issue, just like staff said. The staff person on the specific issue is really the one responsible for drafting it and if I have a question on one that I missed because of the issue, I just call up the staff person on the issue. And find out what was discussed... Mayor Mancino: At the work session. Scott Botcher: I mean exactly. You called today. I can give you a summary thing but I said no. This is Teresa's baby. Get a hold of Teresa. Councilwoman Jansen: Well, having heard everyone's comments, I would beg to differ. When you look at our work sessions, there's very little if any public involvement. I certainly don't see where staff would end up tongue tied with a tape recording. I think it's good for everybody. If the public then wants to know what's going on in a work session, they've got full access. It doesn't have to be summary minutes. They can hear what was going on. It just seems to me that, and again I went clear back to the beginning of '99 when that's what we were being asked for was because our work sessions have become so important to our receiving information, and what our decisions are based upon, there's no access to that information. Now the summary minutes are a step in the right direction but it certainly, and in speaking to staff for a summary of what was an hour or two of information isn't going to give you the same information. I mean certainly yeah, if we miss a work session. I can't remember the last time I missed one, you can get caught up that way. But it's not the same presentation of information. So I would have liked to have seen us go to taping but. Mayor Mancino: Yes, Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: Well I beg to differ, and the reason I beg to differ is the staff people who present that information in the work sessions, present the identical and same information in the staff report, that they present to us at the formal public meetings. And that as far as information exchange goes, all the information that staff puts together is put in the preliminary staff report for profession and that's just turned into a staff report for the council meeting. Rarely ever have I seen a big difference in that information. As far as information goes. Councilwoman Jansen: And the issue is when things do not make it to staff report, there are enough discussions. I could go back on work session agendas. I'm not going to do that because that wasn't the purpose here was to argue what goes on in work sessions, but there are numerous presentations where it doesn't then come to public hearing and that's where we're just receiving information and giving direction. As we proceed with the summary minutes, what Roger and I discussed was if we could make sure that staff is documenting any direction that they thought they heard us give so that we're at least then reviewing what is proceeding from the work sessions would be appreciated. Councilman Engel: I want to chime in one more time, because you made a reference that there's generally people don't attend work sessions. Mayor Mancino: Like tonight. Councilman Engel: I've been on here 3 ½ years and when there are extremely hot issues, they most definitely attend and you may not have been here for a couple that were really, really hot when we were on the council but they were there. They were sitting right behind us and when they had something to say, 71 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 they chimed in and said it and I had no problem with that so I would disagree when you say people don't show up to that. If it's a hot issue and they really care, those are open meetings. Councilwoman Jansen: I agree with you. Councilman Engel: Those are open door meetings. They can show up and they have shown up. Councilwoman Jansen: If it's a hot issue and those happen what, once in 6 months so I agree with you there. Councilman Engel: I tell you what, they're not, by definition they're not... Mayor Mancino: Let's go forward and I'll just, my last few comments are number one, that we have the summarized minutes. They're open to anyone who wants to come and know what's going on. They're always open. Tonight we had standing room only. Any night that anybody wants to come. We now have, which is a little different, we now have the press attending every one of our work sessions. So that they can report on anything or information. Sit at a work session when quite honestly before the press did not come to our work sessions so I think that that is. Councilman Engel: Boring as they may be. Mayor Mancino: Makes it more public also. And they love coming. Okay. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: LIBRARY INFORMATION MAILING, CITY MANAGER. Scott Botcher: I just had one. This is obviously just a template but I think we need to, I think we need to move ahead. I don't want to wait and dally. You guys have heard the 14th to approve this thing. My two cents worth is, you know we have this template that primarily Kate and I pulled this together. E-mail it to you all for comment and fine tuning and then we compile those. And we have any issues of great debate between council members, I guess we'll have to identify those separately and tell you of them. And then get this prepared and get it out the door. I guess I want to make sure that that, and you guys have to say that's alright. Councilman Senn: I'm assuming initially you want to know if there's any questions or issues that you've got off your draft. Then you're going to sift by the responses and then that's when we really need to comment is a second time. Scott Botcher: Well if there's anything, I know we, I mean this is a today document. If there's anything on there that you think is missing, yeah let me know now or let me know electronically but I think this document tries to cover a lot of different things. Councilman Senn: But I'm just saying, that's step one Scott, right? Scott Botcher: Yes sir. Councilman Senn: And step two is once you answer, provide effectively. 72 City Council Meeting - July 24, 2000 Scott Botcher: A narrative. Councilman Senn: ... questions and the narrative and stuff, then we can, you'll send that out and we'll take a look at it. Scott Botcher: That's my goal. Councilman Senn: Okay. Mayor Mancino: Now, can I also add? What I would also like to see besides this, and then you is, if we could by Wednesday of this week also have a time line so that we know when you know we need to get back to you. When we're going to see final copy and three, when it's going to be printed. Just because of the timing of everything, if you don't mind. Scott Botcher: Yeah, no that's okay. If you want to set a deadline amongst yourselves of responding to the questions and bullet points that are there in terms of either what is there or what is not there, that's fine. Councilman Senn: You set it Scott. I mean it's got to meet what you need. Scott Botcher: But as far as giving me input on what's there, Wednesday is fine. There's no way I'm going to have the narrative written, that's just not going to happen, but frankly we start on them. We start on the narratives you know immediately and then as we get questions or issues that people want to talk about into me by like close of business on Wednesday. That means I get them Thursday morning. We can fill those in or blend them with some other responses or something like that, and frankly I don't know, and I'll have to defer to the bulletin people. Once we get all these narratives written, they may look at me and say, you've got too much. I mean you've got to merge some questions because we've got some of the same type of things couple places. We're going to try to move and if we could get a draft copy done by Friday, Monday, that would be good. Mayor Mancino: And we're also probably going to need to hire an art direction to put it together and then go to the printer and get it printed. And I assume we'll need to know costs at some point. Scott Botcher: Yeah. I can't tell you what it's going to be. I'm going to try to make this quick and down and dirty so I'm going to call Deb. And say Deb, we don't have time to screw around, what are we looking at. I haven't talked to her so I don't know. But thanks for your time. Mayor Mancino: Any other questions. Thank you very much tonight and the meeting is closed. Mayor Mancino adjourned the City Council meeting at 10:05 p.m. Submitted by Scott Botcher City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 73