Loading...
1d Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION AUGUST 26, 2002 The City Council members met at the Fire Station and were served dinner prior to the work session. The meeting was called to order at 5:50 p.m. by Mayor Jansen. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Boyle, Councilman Ayotte and Councilman Peterson STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Justin Miller, Todd Hoffman, and Bruce DeJong A. FIRE DEPARTMENT UPDATE. John Wolff and Greg Hayes were present to provide an update on the Fire Department. A Community Memorial Ceremony will be held on September 11th from 9:00 a.m. to 10:15 a.m. and the City Council members were invited to attend. They talked about staff'mg being full with 45 members. The Fire Department is beginning budget talks and compensation for next year. Councilman Peterson asked about technological changes coming up. John Wolff talked about the introduction of the 800 megahertz radios, and the extensive training that goes along with their operation. They expect the radios to be operational sometime in the November-December timeframe. GIS will become the next tool of importance to the Fire Department, and they stressed the importance of the infrared technology. B. COMMUNITY CENTER FOCUS GROUP. Todd Hoffman gave the staff report on this item. The Council went over the Charge Statement for the Community Center Focus Group item by item and made changes. Mayor Jansen asked that background information be provided on the people being considered for the focus group. C. REVIEW PRELIMINARY TAX LEVY. Bruce DeJong provided the background information requested by council on the preliminary tax levy numbers. The City Council will have to set the preliminary tax levy at their City Council meeting on September 9th. Todd Gerhardt asked to add an item onto the Consent Agenda regarding Change Order//2 for the library construction. John Siegfried from the Carver County Board was present and asked by Mayor Jansen if he had any questions. He stated he was present to hear the council' s discussion on the preliminary tax levy. Councilman Labatt asked about a newspaper editorial regarding the County Board's discussion on funding for the Chanhassen library. Mr. Siegfried stated there has been discussion by the County Board on the percentage of staff'mg and equipment to fund. Mayor Jansen stated that circulation could be phased in but that the library needed to fully staffed and supplied as agreed by the County Board.. Mayor Jansen adjourned the work session meeting at 6:55 p.m. Submifted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 26, 2002 Mayor Jansen called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Boyle, Councilman Ayotte, Councilman Peterson, and Councilman Labatt STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Justin Miller, Teresa Burgess, Matt Saam, Bob Generous, Lori Haak, Todd Hoffman, Jason Angell and Bruce DeJong PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS: Bruce Feik Debbie Lloyd Jerry & Janet Paulsen Brian Link Planning Commission 7302 Laredo Drive 7305 Laredo Drive 17569 George Moran CONSENT AGENDA: Mayor Jansen: All listed under the consent agenda are considered to be routine by the City Council and will be considered as one motion. If there is anyone in the audience that would like to have separate discussion around any of the items that are on the consent agenda, if you could identify those to us at this time, we could certainly do that. Good evening. Debbie Lloyd: Good evening. Debbie Lloyd, 7302 Laredo Drive. Item (e), l(e) was requested by the President of Sunrise Hills Association to be removed from the consent agenda this evening. Mayor Jansen: We will do that, thank you. Anyone else with an item on the consent agenda for separate discussion? Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: a. Vasserman Ridge, Lundgren Bros. Construction: 1) Approval of Final Plat; 2) Construction Plans & Development Contract bo Resolution g2002-73: Receive Feasibility Study and Call for Public Heating for Extension of Utilities, Ashling Meadows Second Addition. c. Approve Easement Agreements for Trunk Highway 101 Trail Project No. 97-12-3. d. Approve Consultant Surveying Services Agreement with H.T.P.O., Westwood Professional Services, Sunde Land Surveying, and Otto Associates. City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 f. Approve Contract for Chapel Hill Academy Sanitary Sewer Realignment - Project No. 00-07. g. Approval of preliminary and final plat to subdivide 14.027 acres into one lot and one outlot and approval of a development contract for Halla Maryanne Addition. The site is currently zoned Agricultural Estate District and is located north of Creekwood Drive and west of State Highway 101, Don Halla. h. Approval of Bills. i. Approval of Minutes: - City Council Work Session Minutes dated August 12, 2002 - City Council Minutes dated August 12, 2002 Receive Commission Minutes: - Planning Commission Minutes dated August 6, 2002 j. Approval of Security Agreement for Matrix Development, Hidden Creek Estates. k. Approval of a One Day Beer and Wine License for Edina Realty Foundation. I. Resolution #2002-74: Approval of Resolution Giving Preliminary Approval to Issue Multi-Family Housing Revenue Bonds. m. Resolution #2002-75: Approve Change Order No. 2, Chanhassen Library. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Debbie Lloyd: I'm sorry, Debbie Lloyd again. 7302 Laredo Drive. I didn't make that last question of mine very clear. We'd like it removed entirely from the agenda tonight. Mayor Jansen: It is. Debbie Lloyd: Oh, okay. Mayor Jansen: Completely removed. Thank you. Debbie Lloyd: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Anyone else that would like to make a presentation to the council at this time? LAW ENFORCEMENT UPDATE: Sgt. Dave Ports: Good evening Mayor, council members. From the attachments the Sheriff's Area Report, citation list, the Community Service Officer info and Crime Prevention Specialist info. Any comments or questions regarding those items? Mayor Jansen: Any questions for Sergeant Ports? City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Councilman Boyle: I have no questions. Sgt. Dave Potts: Okay, I didn't have anything to add on those particular items. Under miscellaneous for this evening, I just wanted to mention for the council's information. The search for a missing woman that happened back on July 26th, you probably heard about it in some media reports in the newspaper, that type of thing. What I'd like to draw your attention to is when an incident like this happens, what are some of the resources we have at our disposal. And this was first reported to us at 9:00 p.m. on Friday, July 26m. A woman that was missing from her home apparently had gone out for a walk, or something like that and due to some medical concerns, a larger scale operation was set into motion in attempting to find her. She was not found until early Sunday afternoon about 1:00 p.m. by family members. But in the process the search efforts in Chanhassen included assistance by family members of the missing woman, of course the sheriffs office participated. Chanhassen, Victoria and Shakopee fire department personnel assisted, as did the Chanhassen and sheriffs office and Shakopee fire department dive teams. The State Patrol helicopter and search and rescue dogs enlisted through aid of the Minnesota DNR. So it just, again highlights when there's a need out there and the call goes out, there is a lot of help that comes to Chanhassen or any other community for that matter through mutual aid and other public assistance that is out there. A successful conclusion. The woman was found alive and was transported to the hospital for further treatment so it ended on a positive note there. Mayor Jansen: Congratulations, and it is very reassuring to know that there are that many organizations working together when we do have an emergency like that so thank you for mentioning everyone that was involved. Sgt. Dave Potts: Thank you. Another item I was going to talk about this evening was the AMBER Alert Program. Councilman Ayotte asked about this particular program last month, that he had heard about. And the AMBER plan was something that was created in the State of Texas after the 1996 abduction and murder of 9 year old Amber Hagerman. Since that time regional and community versions of the AMBER plan have been created around the country. Minnesota is now 1 of 16 states that has adopted the program statewide. There is talk now in fact about using the AMBER plan to create a national network for locating abducted children. In Minnesota the AMBER plan has been put into effect through the combined efforts of the Minnesota Department of Public Safety, Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, and Division of Emergency Management, along with the Minnesota Broadcasters Association and the Jacob Wetterling Foundation. The AMBER plan is a voluntary partnership between law enforcement and TV and radio broadcasters to send out emergency alerts to the public when a child has been abducted and is believed the child's life is in great danger. These announcements are similar to the emergency weather warnings that you might see on television or hear on the radio when you're out and about. When a missing child is first reported to the police, and the situation fits the established criteria, the agency involved notifies the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. The criteria includes a confirmed abduction of course. Somebody under the age of 18 years old. That the child is in great danger, and that there is enough descriptive information about the child, the abductor, the vehicle, that type of thing, that a public alert would perhaps assist in the case. The BCA in turn works with the investigating agency to gather the pertinent information, and then activates the AMBER alert plan through the Minnesota Crime Alert Network and the Emergency Alert System. At that point TV and radio stations are notified and asked to broadcast the alert once every 15 minutes for the first 2 hours, and then once every half hour for the next 3 hours, and then it's at their discretion to continue those announcements beyond that time. But what statistics and studies have shown is that when there is a real emergency in a child abduction case, 3 hours is kind of that window of opportunity where you're looking to have something positive or City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 a lead in the case develop. So with this kind of a plan, hopefully with the public being alerted so quickly, some good, solid immediate leads could come in and a child could in fact be found before any harm comes to that child. But just though being that that's an interesting program and new just coming on line in the State of Minnesota, council might be interested in that one. Comments or questions regarding that? Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Anything for Sergeant Potts on that? Appreciate the report on that. Sgt. Dave Ports: Okay. Two of the crime prevention programs I just wanted to mention for council this evening. First, National Night Out, as you know, was held on August 6th. Coordinated by Beth Hoiseth in crime prevention. Three deputies, including one of our canine deputies, Keith Walgrave and his dog Titan, along with members of the sheriff's mounted posse visited participating neighborhoods during that evening, and this year we had 16 neighborhood groups throughout Chanhassen participate, and some of those would host block parties while others would just have a brief social gathering and a visit by the officer and mounted posse group. And again another nice year for that. Participation was down a little bit this year, but we're looking at trying to do some heavier publicizing for next year and get our numbers back up. We feel that's a real nice program. We like to see people come out for that. Safety Camp. Probably one of our larger crime prevention programs, again coordinated by Crime Prevention. This was the sixth annual safety camp this year for kids entering the third grade. This year we had 81 kids involved in the program, held out at Lake Ann Park, with the objective being to bring children together for a fun day of hands on learning about safety on a variety of topics and interacting with law enforcement officers and fire fighters. The 81 children this year were divided into 6 teams, with a couple of team leaders assigned to each of those teams and we try to provide some of our officers and volunteer personnel to assist as team leaders and as presenters for the safety topics of the day. The day this year started with a bright and loud parade by a sheriff's squad, fire trucks and an ambulance, followed by some introductory comments by Sheriff Bud Olson. The teams for the day then rotated through their safety topics, and we only had a small issue with the weather. Some rain came through and intelTupted a couple of our programs for the day, but we got through that. And the day ended with a canine demonstration and graduation ceremony with some comments again by Sheriff Olson and Mayor Jansen as well. So we appreciate the support we get from the city and I know being kind of a partnership thing, that crime prevention is grateful for the sheriff's participation and our ability to provide officers for that program. The topics for Safety Camp this year were fire safety, in-line skating safety, water safety and boating safety. And also a talk on remaining drug free by members of the National Guard who arrived, and left, by helicopter which is always a big treat for the kids to see that come in and take off. And Don Vannah, a motivational speaker and artist, who is also quadriplegic from a motorcycle accident many years ago. Inspired the kids by sharing stories about his struggles, triumphs and just his everyday life. Over coming obstacles and allowing the kids to see special abilities in themselves and demonstrating his own abilities as a mouth artist in drawing some pictures for the kids while he did his talk. Kind of a real eye opener for the kids and a touching moment for everybody. A State Patrol officer instructed the kids on bicycle safety this year and the kids had a chance to go through an obstacle course with their bicycles. So all and all we had a really good day, but we would like to mention that Safety Camp relies heavily on sponsorships and this year's Safety Camp sponsors were General Mills, Target, the Chanhassen American Legion Post 580, Chanhassen Lions Club, and Frankies Restaurant. And we try as much as we can to give them some kudos for their participation because it is a big program and of course like everything else it takes money so I'd like to thank them. And with that, comments, questions from council on those or other activities. City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Appreciate your mentioning those sponsors on the Safety Camp, and again our kudos to all of you for the effort that you put in on that day and I know I mentioned at the last meeting the amount of interest that you receive, not only in Chanhassen but you've gotten a reputation outside of Chan for an excellent safety camp. Sgt. Dave Potts: We do have participates from the surrounding area, and that's just kind of a solid note that we're out there doing something good so. Mayor Jansen: Which is excellent. And I don't recall if you mentioned to the council your own personal involvement, as well as some of the other officers that in fact you spend the day out, without your uniform working with the kids. Maybe sharing that with the council would be. Sgt. Dave Potts: Exactly. Well it's, I consider it a treat for myself to get all this gear off for a day, but I, as well as some of our other officers do participate as team leaders. We show up in our t-shirts and shorts, just like everybody else., Participate with the kids throughout the day, and they may hear somebody mention something about the officers or, but they're not paying a lot of attention until the end of the day, during their graduation when, in this case the sheriff mentioned did you realize that your team leaders were officers from our department, at which point we walk up wearing our uniforms and the wide eyes and the gasps from the kids who thought they were with normal, regular people and it was just, it's a real positive experience I think for the kids as well as for us so. Mayor Jansen: And having witnessed that reaction, it was really heart warming and I can only think that it makes such a positive impression on those kids for the rest of their lives to have interacted with a normal person who tums out to be a deputy and to know that they would then have a comfort level in approaching an officer. I just think could only be the most positive experience that they could have had at such a young age with law enforcement so. Sgt. Dave Potts: And one of the goals and objectives of the program so. Mayor Jansen: Which is excellent. Any questions or comments for Sergeant Potts? Councilman Labatt: The only one I had, is this, you're looking at reviewing the citation list and by beat, and I'm curious at all the boat and water ones, obviously those are ones that occurred on the lake but, and I don't know if in your record keeping system if we get a further breakdown of what those are, and whether they're inadequate life jackets or light violations or speeding violations on the lake. Is that possible? Sgt. Dave Potts: I don't know. It's a question that I would have to look into. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Sgt. Dave Potts: I don't know if they're just categorized under that one thing or if there is a way to break that down further. Certainly something I can look into. Yeah, a number of those where you see the county park ones, those are generally the water patrol people coming through. We do have separate park patrol on occasion as time allows, but because water patrol is in and out of the parks as well, they do some of that same stuff as they're coming in and out so it's kind of a combination. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Anything else? City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Councilman Labatt: No, that was just the boat and water. happening on the lakes and what's being enforced. Sgt. Dave Potts: I'll look into that. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Sgt. Dave Potts: Okay, thank you. STEVEN COHOON~ 7525 BENT BOW TRAIL: I'm just curious as to what's A. PUBLIC HEARING ON VACATION OF DRAINAGE AND UTILITY EASEMENT. Teresa Burgess: Thank you Madam Mayor. The property owner at 7525 Bent Bow Trail has requested vacation of a portion of a drainage and utility easement by the City of Chanhassen. The existing easement, you can see back here on the back of the lot. The property owner's proposing to put in a pool and the pool and retaining wall would encroach upon the easement approximately 40 feet. The vacation of easement would eliminate the encroachment and staff has reviewed the encroachment and is recommending approval of the vacation. If there's any questions, I'd be happy to answer it. Otherwise this evening is a public hearing. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff at this time? Okay. I don't know that the applicant would care to make any comments on this item prior to our going into the public hearing. I'll certainly give you that option. Otherwise I'll just open this up for the public heating. Okay. This is a public hearing, if there is anyone in the audience who would like to speak to this agenda item. This is the vacation of the drainage and utility easement at 7225 Bent Bow Trail. You can approach the podium to make comments at this time. Seeing no one, I'll close the public hearing. Bring this back to council. Council, any comments or discussion? If I could have a motion please.. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councihnan Boyle: Second. Resolution #2002-76: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to approve a resolution vacating a portion of the existing drainage and utility easement located on Lot 13, Block 2 of the Meadows at Longacres 2nd Addition as defined in the attached vacation description, subject to the following conditions: 1. Show all existing and proposed contours on the lot survey. 2. No building shall be allowed over the drainage and utility easement. . Type III silt fence as per City Detail Plate No. 5300 must be used along the north side adjacent to the existing trail. 4. Retaining walls over four feet in height must be designed by a registered engineer. City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 5. A fee of $50 is required to record the easement vacation. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. B. REQUEST FOR CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR DEVELOPMENT WITHIN THE BLUFF CREEK OVERLAY DISTRICT; A 20 FOOT VARIANCE FROM THE 40 FOOT SHORELAND PRIMARY ZONE SETBACK; AND A 20 FOOT VARIANCE FROM THE 40 FOOT STANDARD WETLAND SETBACK FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A SWIMMING POOL AND RETAINING WALL. Bob Generous: Thank you Madam Mayor, council members. This property is located at the end of Bent Bow Trail. It's adjacent to a large wetland complex that serves as the headwaters for Bluff Creek. There's two parts to this. The conditional use permit is required by code for any development within the Bluff Creek corridor. Because this property's within that zone, we need to bring it through the conditional use permit process. It's fairly straight forward. We don't believe that development within the corridor will negatively impact the creek corridor and so we are recommending approval of the conditional use permit subject to complying with the 40 foot setback requirements, and the applicant providing some natural vegetation on this site. The second part of this is for a variance from the 40 foot setback. This is to facilitate, they have a retaining wall that's going in and then a pool area above that. The variance request is actually for 9 feet from the 40 feet, which would create a 31 foot setback from both the primary zone boundary and the wetland boundary. Both boundaries are the same line in this instance. The applicant has presented some alternatives to staff to help try to mitigate these potential negative impacts, including the reduction of the swimming pool width from 20 feet to 18 feet, and the installation of natural vegetation as a buffer around the trail area. While these improvements, these things would help mitigate it, staff still had difficulty finding positive recommendations for approving this and so we are recommending denial of the variance request. We have created an alternative for council if you decide to approve this, and that's the paper I gave to you. We missed, it's actually a 31 foot setback, not a 9 foot setback so I corrected that language. Just when we copied it we didn't do it, and that the applicant provide the native vegetation as a buffer. I should point out the applicant has proposed an alternative buffer plan which would have landscaping south of the trail on the wetlands side, and staff is recommending that any native plantings that go in be north of the trail to add as a filter for any water running down the hill and across the trail into the wetlands. With that I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have. Mayor Jansen: Any questions for staff at this time? Councihnan Ayotte: Yeah I have one. Are we going to hear from Mr. Cohoon first and then we' 11 have an opportunity to ask questions both sides, or do I ask the questions? Mayor Jansen: Yes, Mr. Cohoon will have an opportunity to address the issue. So you can ask now or after staff. Councilman Ayotte: I'll start and then, what was the motivation? When I read the fact that you introduced a TEP, 15-17 July, in that timeframe. The reason for having that TEP brought in was what? Councilman Peterson: What's a TEP? Mayor Jansen: It's the Technical Evaluation Panel. City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Lori Haak: There are two processes that are running concurrently with this project. It makes it a little bit tricky to understand. The first, excuse me. Let me back up. At the end of May of 2002 staff met with the applicant and indicated that if the applicant wished to pursue a pool, there were several options available. The first would be the variance process, and the second would be an appeal of the wetland determination made by city staff. So those are the two processes. The applicant chose to go through both processes simultaneously. And so the Technical Evaluation Panel is for the wetland appeal process. And that boundary that staff determined was reaffirmed on that July 15th TEP. So the net affect of that Technical Evaluation Panel is the reaffirmed boundary that was drawn by staff on the 29th of May. Councilman Ayotte: Can I state it to make sure I understand? Lori Haak: Sure. Councilman Ayotte: It's a validation of the wetland delineation. Lori Haak: Correct. Councilman Ayotte: What was the baseline wetland delineation document? Lori Haak: The original wetland delineation was done with the Longacres subdivision. Councilman Ayotte: How long ago? Mayor Jansen: 92? Councihnan Ayotte: '92. Lori Haak: Early 90's, correct. Councilman Ayotte: What is the normal period of time for wetland delineation to alter given natural activity? Lori Haak: Typically we require new delineations every 3 years. Councihnan Ayotte: Did we have every 3 years a re-establishment of the wetland delineation? Lori Haak: We wouldn't require a new delineation if no development was proposed. In this instance the delineation was changed by the interaction of the trail in the area. As we indicated earlier with the vacation, originally the wetland line had gone up above the trail easement. Councilman Ayotte: And the trail was introduced when? Lori Haak: '94 or '95. Councilman Ayotte: Why didn't we have, as a result of introducing the trail, knowing that the trail, or suspecting that the trail would alter the wetland delineation, why did we not introduce a new benchmark after the introduction of the trail? Lori Haak: The city did not install the trail. The trail was installed by the developer. City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: Nonetheless, if the developer installed the trail and we were not certain of the delineation, should it be the city's charter to identify what that delineation is irrespective of who installed the trail? Should we have required that developer to stake that delineation? Mayor Jansen: What I heard staff say initially to that question was that unless there's development, you don't just automatically initiate the delineation request. Councilman Ayotte: I heard that part but what I'm asking is if in fact, a trail is a development in my view. In my view, so it seems to me that the benchmark could have occurred back in the '94 timeframe which could have avoided what appears to be a rather lengthy sequence of events for a swimming pool. That you only get to use 3 months out of the year anyways but, it seems tedious is the point I'm making. Lori Haak: The delineation, it's really a judgment call at the staff level about the delineation. If the delineation appears accurate at the time that the trail was put in, a new delineation wouldn't have been done. A delineation wouldn't need to be done after the trail was constructed, and it's possible, haven't really explored it and I wasn't on staff at the time so I can't really speak to it but, it would appear that they would included those wetland impacts with the subdivision when the subdivision was approved. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. At the time that the development, that the area was developed by Lundgren Brothers, the wetland delineation required the developer to do things and for the city to do things. There's a trade-off. In other words, if the developer would not touch wetland areas, there would be a gain by the city and vice versa? Lori Haak: I can't really I guess speak to that. Potentially. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. How many other homeowners in the area have had a comparable experience to what we're talking about today? History wise. Do you have a sense of what that? Lori Haak: As far as other variances granted in the area or? Councilman Ayotte: Do we know, is there any other activity going into this area, into the wetland area? Lori Haak: Not that I'm aware of. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. So this is the only one. This is a unique situation? Lori Haak: Correct. Mayor Jansen: Well and I would want to maybe preface for staff that without the ability to research your question, you're receiving an answer on the spot. Yet given the opportunity to maybe go back and look, you might get. Councilman Ayotte: Well let me ask it again. Do you think there may have been, with all this going on I would think that we would have seen weather or not there was a template or a reference or other events in the neighborhood that would influence the decision making. As a matter of course you would look to see whether or not we've had other, so that's not an unusual question. City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Lori Haak: No. There was a pool that was installed to the east of the subject property. It met the required setbacks and I'm not. Mayor Jansen: If you're looking for a specific, okay. Teresa Burgess: If I could address that. Councilman Ayotte, there's nothing as major as this pool that we're aware of. There may be some people that have encroached on the wetland but we're not aware of that because it is not to the extent. Councilman Ayotte: Un-known encroachment, okay. How much time do you think and how much cost do you think the city has put forth in dealing with this effort? I mean the cost of the TEP, number of your hours, direct reviews, so on and so forth. Lori Haak: It's difficult to put a number on that. It's been, the initial site visit was December 64 of 2001 when staff had been alerted of material on the trail and we became aware of construction of the retaining wall. Because the applicant has chosen to pursue two parallel lines, it's difficult to determine what is as a result of the variance and what is the result of the. Councilman Ayotte: Would it be safe to say it'd be over 20 man hours? Lori Haak: Yeah. Councilman Ayotte: Less than 100 man hours? Lori Haak: It's difficult to say. Councilman Ayotte: Could it be as much as 100 man hours? Todd Gerhardt: Bob, where are you going with this? Councilman Ayotte: Well what I'm trying to figure out is, we've, it seems to me that the ordinance and the procedure that we've employed, it's been cumbersome for staff, cumbersome for the resident. That's my opinion in reading through this document. That it's been a cumbersome process only because of the fact that it's an involved process, especially when you're dealing with a wetland where the boundaries move. So it's a difficult thing to enforce. Mayor Jansen: And I think you just hit the nail on the head. It's a complicated process where a wetland gets involved, and it does require certain procedures in order to evaluate that and what staff has shared with us is that there were two processes going on at the same time. A typical variance request does not take as long as a wetland delineation and getting a technical evaluation panel pulled together to review that. So that's the complicating factor here. So if we can move on to project questions. Councilman Ayotte: What I'd like to conclude with though is, it seems to me that with all the resources that have been employed to do this, that it's a difficult ordinance to enforce, that as a lessons learned thing, I'm saying from a future standpoint it seems to me that we may want to consider how we can deal with the issue of wetlands. That it's a difficult point, one. Two, my concern is with the cost of asking... Is it a $1,000 bill? Is it a $500 bill or what are we asking him to do in terms of being deliberate in what we're asking for? Do you have a sense of that? 10 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Lori Haak: Well that is something the staff is recommending denial of the variances. That's something that staff has added as an alternative for council, and that was suggested by the applicant so staff will be working with the applicant under the applicant's proposal and we've provided, staff has provided options and alternatives as far as vegetation that should be used within the Bluff Creek Overlay District, and those sorts of things, so that would be something that would be discussed and arrived at with the applicant. Councilman Ayotte: But we don't know if it's a $100 issue or a $1,000 issue? Mayor Jansen: It's something that the applicant in fact has offered to do, and staff is in fact then working with them on it. It was again in the give and take that's occurred on this project, it was one of the things that the applicant has offered to the city. Councilman Ayotte: No, I understand. Mayor Jansen: Were we to grant the variance as a give and take. Councilman Ayotte: I'll hold that question for Mr. Cohoon. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Ayotte: Okay, thank you. Mayor Jansen: Appreciate that. Any other questions for staff at this time? Okay. If the applicant would like to come forward and make a presentation to the council, I'm just going to ask that we keep that limited if possible to a 5 minute timeframe in that we do have the minutes from the Planning Commission meeting, and have had an opportunity to review that so any new information certainly share with us at this time. Welcome. Steven Cohoon: Thank you. My name is Steven Cohoon, 7525 Bent Bow Trail. Good to be here. Mayor Jansen: Good evening. Steven Cohoon: I'm going to try very hard to move as quickly as possible. That's my presentation so you can follow along and hopefully it will go very quickly. I have back-up if there are questions so this is a summary of the situation, but it is very complicated, as you've all noted already, and there is some new information that's been developed since the Planning Commission meeting, so we need to cover some new information. So, I've tried to organize this as effectively as possible. Basically I want to cover overall context, the background, some staff, the staff recommendations and conditions, some alternative conditions and a quick summary. I'm going to move quickly so don't be afraid to jump in, stop me if you have a question or I leave something out. Three related issues, we've already dealt With two of them. Thank you very much. The third one, the variance for the retaining wall, pool fence and pool apron, and of course relevant to all three is the wetland delineation, and we started to talk about how difficult it is, but first maybe you can share the objectives that we have. We obviously want to meet legal requirements as well as the intent of our wetland conservation code, and provide reasonable use of homeowner property. So, I had quite an education. I'll keep my education for you very short but I'd like to cover what is defined as a wetland. How the current delineation was defined. Some relevant data. A very quick summary of applicable city codes and there will be a summary, and the current situation of the site. Okay. Wetlands. It's defined in the U.S. Army Corps of 11 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Engineers Wetland Delineation Manual. It's also described in city ordinance 20-1, and summarized in the city publication, Revenge of the Green Pond Scum, which is in my background material if you want to refer to it, but basically all three say three criteria must be met simultaneously. Have wetland vegetation, have wetland soil, and you have water at the surface or saturation within 12 inches of the surface for 5 percent of the growing season, or about 8 days here in Chanhassen. Now we've had several site visits. Five site visits. In addition to that I've done daily monitoring of check sites established in April for the past 120 days. Those check sites are located relative to the proposed site of the retaining wall and pool. D is closest to 31 feet. C is the next furthest out. B at 50 feet. Check site A at 110. Again I have detailed data in the background if you need it. A summary of all the data...is that within 110 feet of the retaining wall, nobody has yet detected the ground saturation within 12 inches of the surface at any time. In other words, the current delineation is based upon secondary factors that indicate at some point in time there was water somewhere. We have found occasional ground saturation within 12 inches of the surface beyond the 110 feet, and the headwaters of Bluff Creek, there is some surface water at about 120 feet. So, the process that we've had with the delineation has resulted in a conservative delineation that provides adequate protection for a wetland and/or water quality. We're very satisfied with that. Okay, so that's wetlands, and where we are relative to delineation. I'd like to move on to the city codes and talk about some things that have gone on. This is new material. It's not in the staff report. Was not presented at the Planning Commission. Basically in looking at applicable codes we have specific, distinct definitions for principle structures, accessory structures and landscaping materials. Basically it provides a very specific and separate, distinct usage. And it's important to know that there are distinctions because there's been a change in the applicable code. Section 20-406, Wetland Buffer Strips and Setbacks is a. key part of the discussion tonight. Basically for this type of wetland, there's typically a 40 foot setback with a 10 foot buffer. As Bob was pointed out, the buffer and the setback are coincident. There essentially is no buffer in this case, due to the installation of the path. Supplement A of the City's code was effective until May, 2001, and specified the 40 foot setback to be applied to principle structures. No reference to accessory structures, so just city code distinguishes between principle structures in May, accessory structures were added in Supplement 14. This supplement was published in January, 2002. January of this year. It added accessory structures, and the current interpretation includes basically anything man made because the code identifies is going to be interpreted the word structure dominates, predominates the word accessory and principle essentially are how it should be removed to, for clarification. I have definition of structures also in the background, but it's basically anything man made. Some additional city codes. Section 20-904. Pool is defined as an accessory structure. Section 20-1183. Landscaping materials includes retaining walls, no permit required for those less than 4 feet high. So we have additional point of confusion whether or not the pool is initially included in a principle setback, principle structure setback. Also point of confusion whether the retaining wall was a structure or landscaping material, until clarified by the city attorney here 2 weeks ago. Teresa Burgess: If I could clarify real quickly though. Even though a permit is not required for a retaining wall, it does require an easement encroachment agreement and this retaining wall is in the easement which is what we did prior to this item. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Steven Cohoon: Yes. That's correct. So, the summary of what I discovered in the codes and I'd like you to hold with you is that the wetland setbacks have been revised since we purchased the property and built the home, and re-published since our project was initiated, and we've got conflicting definitions and requirements for structures, for wetland setbacks for accessory structures including pools and landscape materials. In our current proposal with the vacation of 12 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 the easement, as you just approved, complies with ordinance in effect when the home was built and with those published when the project was initiated. So our current situation. As we just reviewed, there's no buffer strip. Only requirements under Section 20-406 is a 40 foot setback from the wetland' s edge. Therefore under 20-406 we could landscape to the edge of the wetland. This is an average of 20 feet south of the path across 200 feet of path distance. About 4,000 square feet could be legally landscaped, which is today natural vegetation. The retaining wall by surveyor measurement is 33 ½ feet from the wetland boundary, and over 100 feet from the measured water saturation. I have a graphic here, to give you a feeling again for the situation then. We have conservation easements for the wetland. We have tree preservation easements. We have the path easements, and then we have the proposed site. These are disturbed areas that have been, due to access to the site, these areas are disturbed. I'll come back to that. Then of course this is the section I just talked about that potentially could be landscaped. Any questions about this? Councilman Ayotte: Okay. Point to me where, under paragraph 4. Correction. Under 3 where we would revegetate. Where you would revegetate. Steven Cohoon: The disturbed areas, this area is disturbed. These areas have been disturbed by access, and when we're done actually this whole section here will be one way or another because access to either remove the wall or complete the project will require disturbing this whole slope. So as the condition's written, it would essentially revegetate most of the rest of the back yard. I'll come back to description of that in a second. So moving on to the staff's recommendations and conditions. We talked about conditional use permit. You've approved that, thank you. We agree the wetland delineation will adequately protect our wetland habitat and water supply. We agree with the vacation of drainage easement previously approved. We are a little confused about condition 2 of the vacation of the drainage easement. We certainly intend to build in the vacated portion, so condition 2 is confusing to us. Stating, wasn't clear whether that's the vacated portion or the remaining portion where the drainage easement applies. Mayor Jansen: Staff, can you clarify that? Teresa Burgess: I guess I'm confused by the question. You're asking can you build in the vacated part of the easement? Steven Cohoon: Yeah, that's. Teresa Burgess: Once it is vacated it's no longer an easement and you can build in that. Steven Cohoon: Then condition 2 just states what's law. What's in city ordinance akeady. Teresa Burgess: Right, and that would still apply to the remaining portion of the easement. Steven Cohoon: Yes, that would be obvious. We don't agree with the new condition in the conditional use permit for revegetation. That's not supported by 20-406: Goes well beyond, in fact 20-406 only makes native vegetation optional in the buffer strip. This is all outside the wetland. The buffer strip and primarily outside the 40 foot setback. What the staff position, there's no hardship. Hardship has been created. The lot size and shape dictates where we can put the pool. Position of the path dictates using a retaining wall to provide clearance or observe the easement for the path plowing, and of course we have confusing and conflicting requirements among...relevant ordinances. A little more detail on the condition. Like I said, 20-406 says no vegetation requirements. The proposed condition was native vegetation, and frankly this was not 13 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 part of the proposal that we submitted initially, and this was not discussed with us so we were very surprised when we saw the staff report. Disturbed areas are a minimum of 28 feet from the wetland boundary. Majority are outside a 40 foot setback, and they represent approximately 50 percent remaining usable backyard. We think it represents an undue hardship to use of our property. Alternatively though, the section south of the path. It talks about 4 here. We propose to leave that in native condition. It's an average of 20 feet wide, 200 long. Over 4,000 feet, and frankly it deals with the major feature that affects wetland quality which is the path itself. As there's over 3,000 square feet of hard surface represented in the path on the property, and it has the major impact on wetland quality. So we've maintained that. Refrain from any future landscaping south of the path, and we offer to plant native trees as well to enhance the habitat. Summarize then our basis for the variance. At the time of house construction, 20-406 called for a 40 foot setback for principle structures only. At the time of construction it was sited as close to the street as permissible for side setbacks. There's a figure in the back-up material as well as in the staff report. The slope of the back yard precludes the pool siting in closer proximity to the house. The path location or related easement requires a retaining wall for the maintenance of path. At initiation of a retaining wall we called the building department. They advised no permit required under 4 feet so we initiated the project thinking we would follow up with a permit for the pool. Obviously we were in error at the time because of the easement. The drainage and utility easement. At the time of the staff review in November we were only provided Supplement 8, so again we didn't realize the application to all structures. So we started the project believing we were in conformance with applicable codes. And we were also looking at similar sites around the neighborhood at the time of the project initiation. We viewed two neighboring pools. Both are closer than 40 feet to surface water and cattail vegetation. There's actually two wetland sites in the pool that is on the property to the east of us, and wetland to the east of them is very close. It's within 15 feet of their fence, which of course is a structure under the current interpretation of 20- 406. We viewed 19 neighboring homes where the property is adjacent to wetlands. 13 of the 19 exhibit landscaping structures, retaining walls, fences, steps, play structures, walks within 40 feet of the wetland. So it's consistent with established practices in the majority of the neighboring homes. So moving on quickly here. I've used more than 5 minutes and I apologize for that. We have a very conservative delineation that provides for over 100 feet to the nearest detection of water saturation. We propose to maintain a 20 foot average substitute buffer beyond the requirements of Section 20-406, which will also act to mitigate the impact of the public path. We reduced the size of the pool so the pool itself by surveyor measurements will be outside the 40 foot setback. We've upgraded the pool cover to eliminate overflow. The new man made features, the retaining wall and the edge of pool apron are less than 10 percent of the surface area of the path, are further removed from the wetland. We believe therefore that again in terms of protection for the wetland, the path is the largest concern. And we have proposed to improve the habitat with the addition of trees. In terms of the second objective I stated beginning of the discussion, reasonable use of homeowner property. The project complies with and exceeds ordinance in force at the time of the property purchase and home construction. It complies with and exceeds ordinances published and made available at the time of project initiation and is consistent with established practices in neighboring homes. So, we'd ask you to consider and respectfully request approval of our variance to construction our pool, retaining wall and fence. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Steven Cohoon: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Any questions for the applicant? Councilman Ayotte: It didn't state the depth of the pool. 14 City Council Meeting- August 26, 2002 Mayor Jansen: You're joking, correct? Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, I'm joking. Steven Cohoon: Do you want to cover some of the background? Councilman Ayotte: You did say that you were in disagreement with what the staff wrote up on the alternate motion, and I didn't quite understand what point you were referring to. Mayor Jansen: If I could, I was going to direct that question to staff so that we can have them clarify the alternative vegetation. I think that will be the most helpful for us Mr. Cohoon. Thank you. Staff, whichever one of you would like to approach that question. I'm gathering the difference between the two vegetation areas that we're talking about is that the applicant had proposed their vegetation on the south side of the path, and the replacement and addition of the native vegetation is on the north side. Bob Generous: Yeah, that's partially it. I think that Steven's concern is that we're looking at requiring revegetation all the way up the hill because all of that area would be impacted with the construction activity. The machines coming down the hill, and we're really looking at one of his proposals for adding the buffer strip, which was on the north side of the trail. His plans show a nice example on the west side and the east side of his properties, there's existing native vegetation and we were looking at something that would connect to that but just adjacent to the trail area so that we would have this small corridor of more natural plantings rather than mowed lawn all the way down to the trail easement itself. Councilman Ayotte: That's paragraph 2 on top of page 4? Bob Generous: Yes that's. Mayor Jansen: Correct. For the conditional use permit. Bob Generous: Both for the conditional use and for the variance. Mayor Jansen: Condition 3 under the variance as well. Councilman Ayotte: It applies to both, that north/south and along the trail? Bob Generous: Pardon me? No, it's just along the trail that we're looking for the native revegetation. Councilman Ayotte: Just along the trail, okay. Bob Generous: And that's what we've worked with the applicant to come up with a final plan, but his original suggestion and we're working with that. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So possibly the confusion is how far into his property you're wanting to extend that revegetation. Do you have a distance in mind as you had looked at those original plans that, or where the vegetation is currently? So we could maybe more clearly find. Bob Generous: About 10 feet wide we believe that we're looking at that area. 15 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay. Mr. Cohoon, can we maybe establish, is that more in line with what you would be willing to accept as far as that condition? That it's not impacting the full breadth of your property up the hill but. Steven Cohoon: That's much more reasonable, but the point I'm trying to make also is that the, if the concern is for the quality of the wetland, we need to address the impact of the path. And we're offering to address the impact of the path by leaving the whole 20 feet, 200 feet long south of the path in native format. We think that's more than adequate and reasonable. Fran~y we're trying to imagine what it would look like, but we don't want, frankly don't want the look of the native vegetation going into a sodded area. We think that it would not be very attractige. And the way the trail divides it is very natural format today. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Lori Haak: If I might add a concern of staff is the maintenance of the trail and the affects of that trail maintenance on any vegetation that would be planted. It's not staff's intent that trees would be planted near the trail so that the roots could damage the trail in any way. In addition, the normal maintenance practices along trails include mowing and things of that nature so part of staff' s concern about landscaping south of the trail would be those concerns. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. And that would also be part of my question on the north side of the trail. Don't we have an easement for the trail? What distance is that? Is it 5 feet? Is it 10 feet where they're actually mowing? Okay, so typically isn't that native vegetation, is that what we're talking about is that buffer now for the trail would be 10 feet of native vegetation. It wouldn't be sodded by the homeowner right up to the trail. Steven Cohoon: It can be. Under 20-406 we can sod up to the wetland boundary. In fact we have sodded up to the edge of the trail and in fact a couple of my neighbors have... Mayor Jansen: Okay. So I guess that's what I'm asking staff. At this point if we have a trail easement that impacts the 10 feet on the north side of the trail, can't we already require that that have the native vegetation? Councihnan Labatt: No. You're another 10 feet from center. Center of the trail. Mayor Jansen: But the segment that the city mows. Steven Cohoon: The easement provides that we can't obstruct 10 feet from the center line. It doesn't require that we cannot sod... Mayor Jansen: Okay, is that, that's correct staff? Okay, that's what I'm asking. Councilman Labatt: Bottom line is, right now with the new delineation if the Cohoon's want to, they could sod from the trail south out to the wetland. New wetland delineation, correct? Lori Haak: Well the confusion is that the ordinance does require a 0 to 20 foot buffer with a 10 foot minimum average. In this case because the trail, at that point I wasn't certain the distance between the actual delineation and edge of the trail. We had not had that surveyed yet so the discussion of staff and what was indicated in the Planning Commission report was prior to that TEP on site, so I didn't ~know precisely how far it was from the edge of the trail. So we weren't 16 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 certain if the wetland went all the way to the edge of the trail, or somewhere inbetween and what maintenance would do. It's a long way of saying that there is area there that could be used as buffer. Councilman Labatt: Well let's just look at the drawing here. I mean the way I read this here, on the new survey dated 7/31, from the edge of the retaining wall to the pre-posted trail, you're looking at 34.8 feet of distance. Where the new delineation is noted. Councilman Boyle: But the issue is not south of the trail is it? Councilman Labatt: Well no, I'm just trying to figure, what I'm trying to point out here is, if he wanted to, he could now re-sod up to that new wetland. Correct? Lori Haak: With the current. Councilman Labatt: With the current delineation he could. Mayor Jansen: On the south side. Councilman Labatt: Okay if he wanted to. So, what he's saying, I'm willing to leave that native. Why wouldn't we just say great? That's the new buffer. Mayor Jansen: And we can do that. Councilman Labatt: Well, we're sitting here wasting all this time, my goodness. You know let's not. Mayor Jansen: I'm trying to make sure that we're clear on the condition that staff has in the report compared to what the applicant is asking for and we can go forward now because I think we' ve established what the difference is between the two. And that was the misunderstanding. Todd Gerhardt: Lori, you were going to add a comment? Lori Haak: Yeah, the only thing that I would add is that, the proposal that was reviewed by staff is what was in front of staff at the time. That was the proposed buffer that the applicant had proposed. This is something new that staff has not had a chance to review so I'd just like to make that clarification. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. I'm going to go ahead and bring this back to council at this point if there are any additional questions for staff, certainly pose them at this time. Otherwise looking for comments so we can move ahead on the agenda. Councilman Ayotte: This is so convoluted, I don't have any more questions for staff. This is so convoluted however, in terms of being able to make a motion that's clear based on all the factors. I'm having difficulty with that. I thought I had paragraph 2 and 3 knocked down pat. Now I'm having a little bit of difficulty. Then we're providing clarification to point 4 then. That no vegetation shall be planted within a public trail easement. That's the point that you're bringing up Steve, right? Councilman Labatt: Well yeah. They are entitled to plant south of the trail if they want to. Correct Lori? 17 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Lori Haak: Outside of the easement, yes. Councilman Labatt: Outside of the easement, they can. Lori Haak: Correct. Councilman Labatt: So. Councilman Ayotte: So how would we rework paragraph 4? Councilman Labatt: I think what we do is, if you're asking me, and it's strictly myself. Mayor Jansen: 4 is also still talking about not within the public trail easement. Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, that's what. Mayor Jansen: Which is what Lori was trying to explain. Councilman Labatt: And that's 10 feet from center, right? Lori Haak: Correct. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Mayor Jansen: So I don't think that in fact inhibits the homeowner in what he's saying he would like to do as far as the native vegetation on that side. Councihnan Boyle: Well it does because on north of the trail he's saying he would like to sod up to the trail. Am I not correct? Mayor Jansen: So that would be paragraph 3. Steven Cohoon: That's not a violation of the code. Councilman Ayotte: But that's what you want. Mayor Jansen: That's paragraph 3. Lori Haak: It's the second sentence in paragraph 4. The last sentence would have to be changed if council goes that direction. To all planting shall be installed south of the trail. Councilman Ayotte: And I think that would fix it if we just use south of the trail. Steven Cohoon: ...condition something like maintain current vegetation...and native vegetation south of the path. Councihnan Labatt: So you're willing to just let the area south of the trail be as it is right now? Steven Cohoon: That's right. 18 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Councilman Labatt: Provided up on the north of the trail you can sod up to the trail. Steven Cohoon: Correct. Councilman Labatt: And then re-sod all your disturbed areas with sod. Steven Cohoon: Yep, correct. Mayor Jansen: Council, any further discussion? Councilman Labatt: So it's just a matter of, on the TEP panel survey, there's a distance of 34.8 feet. Am I reading that right? From the wall to the closest point to where the wetland is. Or the trail or whatever. Lori Haak: I believe it says 33. Councilman Labatt: There's a 33.5, and then to the right of that is 34.8. Lori Haak: Correct. Councilman Labatt: So coming up with the 9 foot setback, where's that number coming from? Lori Haak: When I used the scale on this drawing, that's what I came up with on the southwest corner of the retaining wall. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Wouldn't he need a 6 V2 foot variance at that point then? Give him 33 V2. Bob Generous: If it's 33 V2, yes. Lori Haak: Right, but I came up with the 31 foot. The southwest coruer which would be a 9 foot variance which is what is in the staff report. Mayor Jansen: So the staff report includes what you think is the maximum needed. And I don't know that we need to. Councilman Boyle: I have one area of confusion. Just real quick. Mayor Jansen: Okay, go ahead. Councilman Boyle: Supplement 14, approved in May of 2001. Published in January of 2002 added accessory structure and current interpretation, etc, etc. Supposedly this was added after the project was initiated, is that correct? Bob Generous: No. It was codified afterwards. It was approved and published prior to that with council' s approval of the amendment. Councilman Boyle: It was published prior to January? Bob Generous: Yes, but we didn't codified it so we didn't have the new inserts printed up until January. 19 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Councilman Boyle: Okay. Councilman Ayotte: It wasn't available to the public per se, although it was in. Bob Generous: Well the ordinance was available, however it wasn't inserted into the code under a format that everyone's used to looking at. Councilman Boyle: So the applicant had no way to know this, is that correct? And possibly should have been grandfathered? Bob Generous: Well it was published. We noticed, as part of our public hearing process. Councilman Boyle: Well why didn't staff tell him of this then? Mayor Jansen: Okay, tell you what. I'm going to bring this back and call for a motion if I could please. I think we're very close and we're just hammering through some of the details of what's been a very complicated, long, drawn out process and I think we can simplify this by moving forward. Steve, you were taking some notes. Did you make an adjustment? Councilman Labatt: Yeah. I made a couple of them. I just have one more question on, and I promise my last one. On paragraph 2, all disturbed areas shall be revegetated. That paragraph. Have we addressed that issue completely to Mr. Cohoon? Steven Cohoon: I've...current native vegetation will be maintained south of the path and no future landscaping south of the path. Councihnan Ayotte: No, that's paragraph 4. He's talking about paragraph 2 right now. Mayor Jansen: It's actually paragn'aph 2 under the conditional use permit. They're identical. Councilman Ayotte: Oh, I'm sorry. Mayor Jansen: So whatever you do to actually 3 you should do to 2. Councilman Labatt: Right. Well I'm just going to make those the sarne so I'm going to change them. Mayor Jansen: That'd be good. Councilman Labatt: Okay, so I would. I'll try to wing this here. I would approve, or move that we approve a conditional use permit 2002-3 subject to the following conditions. Number 1 stays the same. Number 2, that all areas north of the trail shall be resodded and the areas south of the trail shall be left in their present state. Mayor Jansen: Okay, do I have a second2 Councilman Peterson: Second. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any questions on the motion? Okay. 20 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Peterson seconded that the City Council approves Conditional Use Permit g2002-3 to allow construction within the secondary zone of the Bluff Creek Overlay District in a PUD-R District for a swimming pool and retaining wall, subject to the following conditions: , The swimming pool and retaining wall shall maintain a 9 foot setback from the wetland. All areas north of the trail may be resodded and the areas :south of the trail shall be left in their present natural state. All voted in favor, except Mayor Jansen who opposed, and the motion carded with a vote of 4to 1. Mayor Jansen: If I could have the next motion please. Councilman Labatt: Okay. I move that we approve Variance #2002-7 for a 9 foot variance from the 40 foot Bluff Creek Overlay District Primary Zone and a 9 foot variance from the 40 foot wetland setback for the construction of a swimming pool, retaining wall subject to the following conditions. And the new as amended one. Number 1 is a 31 foot setback instead of a 9. 2 stays the same. 3 will be changed to what I just said number 2. The area north of the trail can be resodded. The present state area south of trail will remain in it's current form. And number 4 will be that no vegetation shall be planted within the public easement, right and then all plantings be installed south of the public trail. South of the trail. Mayor Jansen: Okay, and a second please. Councihnan Boyle: Second. Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council approves Variance ~2002-7 for a 9 foot variance from the 40 foot Bluff Creek Overlay District Primary Zone setback and a 9 foot variance from the 40 foot wetland setback for the construction of a swimming pool and retaining wall, subject to the following conditions: 1. The swimming pool and retaining Wall shall maintain a 31 foot setback from the wetland. , The width of the swimming pool shall be limited to 18 feet and the width of the swimming pool apron shall be limited to 26 feet. All areas north of the trail may be resodded and the areas south of the trail shall be left in their present natural state. , No vegetation shall be planted within the public trail easement. All plantings shall be installed south of the public trail. All voted in favor, except Mayor Jansen who opposed, and the motion carded with a vote of 4to 1. Mayor Jansen: And I will clarify why I'm in fact voting no. I certainly understand and I did speak with the applicant. I understand all the extenuating circumstances, and in fact on these wetland setbacks I do on principle stand fast with wanting to protect these buffer areas. It is a much larger development. There are other issues and requests that do come before us and we 21 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 have seen a couple in this area. So I wish you well with your project and appreciate all the time and effort that staff has put in. That yourselves have put in. I know you did a great deal of research yourselves, and we certainly appreciate that. When oUr residents dig in and probably learn more detail than you cared to learn, but we do appreciate it and I by no means am trying to make an example of your project but it is one that on principle with these wetland setbacks that I appreciate that it's been passed but I had to vote no. But thank you. Appreciate your coming this evening and staying with the process with us. Steven Cohoon: Thank you. PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR VACATION OF A DRAINAGE AND UTILITY EASEMENT LOCATED ON LOT 2~ BLOCK 1~ KOLBINGER ADDITION~ 7530 FRONTIER TRAIL, CHARLES STINSON. Teresa Burgess: Thank you Madam Mayor. Put north up, because I always think of north as being up. The property owner at 7530 Frontier Trail has requested vacation of an existing drainage and utility easement that runs east/west through the center of the property. This easement was platted with the original property. The property is currently vacate and the property owner desires to build on this lot. Staff has researched the need for the easement and finds no reason to retain the easement and therefore recommending approval of the vacation and the resolution for vacation. If there's any questions I'd be happy to answer it. Tonight is a public hearing. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff? For a change. I only had one and that was how the service was being provided to the lot that looks landlocked behind this, and I was assured that it's already currently receiving service so that isn't an issue. So with that, I think this one's an obvious. If I could have a motion please. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Ayotte: Second. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council approve a resolution vacating the existing drainage and utility easement located on Lot 2, Block 1 of the Kolbinger Addition plat as defined in the attached vacation description, subject to the following conditions: The vacation description shall be revised to exclude the existing 10 foot front yard and 5 foot rear yard easements. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: Moving on. Oh you know, I didn't open it to the Public hearing, did I? Can I still open the public hearing Mr. Attorney? Roger Knutson: Absolutely. 22 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Thank you. If there is anyone who cares to comment on this item, you are welcome to come forward to the podium still and do so at this time. I apologize for jumping ahead on this one. It just seemed so obvious. Jerry Paulsen: Jerry Paulsen, 7305 Laredo Drive. Mayor Jansen: Good evening. Jerry Paulsen: This is, I think you're going to get this as two parts-of this issue. One is the vacation of the easement, and the next part is the construction of the house on the slope that is, exceeds the code as far as the shoreland requirements are concerned. I think that's the next step that's coming down the road. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Teresa Burgess: I can address that Madam Mayor, very quickly. This is a lot of record. The city is required to allow them to build on the lot. By vacating the easement it allows more flexibility in addressing the restrictions of the lot and since we do not have a reason for retaining the easement, it really is the city's responsibility to vacate this excess easement and allow the property owner to develop his property in the best manner available. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Mr. Knutson, do I need to call for a vote now. I'm going to close the public hearing. Do I need to call for a vote again? Roger Knutson: I think it would be a good idea. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Ayotte: Second. Resolution #2002-77: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council approve a resolution vacating the existing drainage and utility easement located on Lot 2, Block 1 of the Kolbinger Addition plat as defined in the attached vacation description, subject to the following conditions: 1. The vacation description shall be revised to exclude the existing 10 foot front yard and 5 foot rear yard easements. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: I apologize for my slip up. 23 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR A VACATION OF A DRAINAGE AND UTILITY EASEMENT LOCATED ON LOT 1~ BLOCK 1~ TRIPLE CROWN ESTATES~ 820 PREAKNESS LANE~ KEITH SCHERBING. Public Present: Name Address Keith Scherbing Mike Korth 820 Preakness Lane 6971 Nez Perce Lane Teresa Burgess: Thank you Madam Mayor. If we can zoom in a little closer on this one, it's on the back of the lot. The property owner at 820 Preakness Lane has requested vacation of an existing portion of drainage and utility easement, the 20 foot on the back lot. The property owner has an existing structure that is in this area that is encroaching on the easement. Vacation of the easement will eliminate that encroachment and therefore eliminate the need for an encroachment agreement. Staff has reviewed the easement and finds no compelling reason for retaining it and is therefore recommending vacation of the easement. If there's any questions I'd be happy to answer them, otherwise this is a public hearing also. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Any questions for staff at this time? Councilman Boyle: Thanks for the reminder. Mayor Jansen: Okay, no questions for staff. This is a public hearing. If there is anyone present that would like to speak to this agenda item, please come forward at this time. Seeing no one, oops, sorry. Mike Korth: Mike Korth, 6971 Nez Perce. I guess I was just wondering, could you explain to me, does, this does not increase his lot size con'ect? Teresa Burgess: No it does not. What it is, is his existing lot size has, his existing lot has an easement over the top that was dedicated at the time of plat. It's a 20 foot easement. 20 foot easements are usually taken either when we have extremely deep utilities or when we need to construct a drainage swale. Neither of those conditions exist on this lot and if the property owner was to request an encroact~ment agreement, we would have allowed it. This is a cleaner method of allowing that existing structure to stay in place. To vacate the easement instead of requiring him to sign an encroachment agreement for the structure itself. Mike Korth: Can you tell me what the setback is for a side lot? Teresa Burgess: Planning would be able to answer that. Bob Generous: It's 10 feet. Mike Korth: How far is that shed from the side? I mean we're just going back here is what you're addressing. My assumption is because that's only 3 feet, 2 or 3 feet from the side lot, that that's going to have to be moved in. 24 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Teresa Burgess: If he does get this approved, he will be applying for a variance to the side lot or the back lot setback, and he will no longer need the encroachment agreement. He will still need a variance or he will have to relocate it to meet the back lot setback. Mike Korth: Okay. Mayor Jansen: Any other questions? Mike Korth: No. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Anyone else that would like to ask questions on this particular item. Okay, thank you. Now I'll close the public hearing and bring this back to council. Council, any questions? Discussion. If I could have a motion please. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve. - Councilman Boyle: Second. Resolution//2002-78: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council approves a resolution vacating a portion of the existing drainage and utility easement located on Lot 1, Block 1 of the Triple Crown Estates plat as defined in the attached vacation description, subject to the following conditions: 1. Limit the width of the easement vacation to 15 feet which would leave a five foot wide easement as current code requires. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. PUBLIC HEARING: APPROVE FEASIBILITY STUDY FOR INSTALLATION OF A SIDEWALK ADJACENT TO LAKE SUSAN HILLS DRIVE, PROJECT No. PW-191D. Public Present: Name Address Mike Auer Chris Deschneau Martha Newell Tina Schreur Stacey Johnson Terri Berg Jeff Yeager Debbie & Steven Fuhrman Wendie & Rick Ulku Jason Johnson Paul Larson Kris & John Sanders Jeff & Kristy Cook 910 Lake Susan Drive 901 Lake Susan Drive 9090 Lake Susan Drive 921 Lake Susan Drive 930 Lake Susan Drive 8616 Chanhassen Hills Drive South 1120 Lake Susan Drive 1031 Lake Susan Drive 1020 Lake Susan Drive 1071 Lake Susan Drive 1061 Lake Susan Drive 1100 Lake Susan Drive 8750 Lake Susan Court Teresa Burgess: Thank you Madam Mayor. The City of Chanhassen received a petition from property owners requesting installation of sidewalk. Or not installation, consideration of 25 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 sidewalk on Lake Susan Drive. The sidewalk would have been placed on the north side of the drive, and the shaded area indicates the lots that it would have crossed. The city prepared a feasibility study over the summer months and included a cost estimate in the feasibility study, and assessment roll for the area. An improvement of this type would be assessed under the city's practices 100 percent to the adjoining property owners. The attached is a map, and the council has this in their packet as well. Of the area that would have been assessed for this sidewalk, had it been installed. Staff then sent out a copy of the draft feasibility study to the public specifically those properties proposed to be assessed. The City received back several comments and also a petition. The majority of the people that commented did object to the project for both cost reasons and also for concerns about a trail or a sidewalk in their front yard. Staff is then recommending that the feasibility study be adopted with the revised recommendation of denial. Staff will continue to work with residents in the neighborhood to address the safety concerns that originally raised the sidewalk issue. I do ~know that there are property owners that are still interested in pursuing a sidewalk. We will meet with the neighborhood in a couple of months as we go into the winter months we do a lot of those neighborhood meetings, and we'll discuss what the neighborhood wants to do. If they want to continue to pursue this as an alternative, however we are recommending denial of the current feasibility study and to look at it as an alternative at a future. We would revise the existing feasibility study at that time. If there's any questions I'd be happy to answer it. It is a public hearing. I would like to stress for everyone in the audience, the council has received all of the e-mails as well as the petition that was sent, and also received a summary of the voice mails that were received so if you have sent in an e-mail, the council has seen that. Mayor Jansen: Yes, thank you. Council, any questions for staff? Councilman Ayotte: Teresa, I'm sure this will have to go to Public Safety, but has there been consideration options, avenues considered other than the sidewalk to deal with the public safety concerns? And I would suspect time line wise that there's a certain sense of urgency because of school and so on. Teresa Burgess: Property owners have been made aware of Project Leadfoot. That would be one option. Specifically they're looking to address the availability of a safe area for their children, and also a safe walking space. The original request was a sidewalk to address that. We have lost the ability to get that installed yet this year. If we had had approval tonight, and authorization to prepare plans, we might have gotten it installed before snowfall, but doubtful. So we're into next year. Councilman Ayotte: What I'm asking, are there other options beside a sidewalk that have been percolated up to the people that know? I mean the residents can say what about this, what about that but has there been staff assessment as to what the options might be, other than a sidewalk? Teresa Burgess: This is a typical subdivision in the city of Chanhassen. It was developed with the intention that people would use the street as their mode of transportation to walk in, and we're seeing in a lot of those neighborhoods where they have busier traffic that they don't want to do that. They would prefer a sidewalk, but at the same time because of the way the development was laid out, and because people have gotten used to that expanse of green in front of their house, they're concerned about, first of all the cost because it is assessed back to them, and also the loss of area. It's a common concern. We struggle with it in many neighborhoods. In fact it's probably the root of the majority of our speed complaints. Councilman Ayotte: So we don't have an option at this point is what you're saying? 26 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Teresa Burgess: At this point we really don't have an option. We will meet with the neighborhood at a later date and see if they have any recommendations that we can address. I think a lot of those we do with a brainstorming session and open house and allow people to come in and percolate some of those ideas up for us and they live with it day 'to day. There are some things that we can do, but I hate to toss out solutions until I really understand what the problem is. Councilman Ayotte: So we could safely say that for the time being, for this season, for the fall, we couldn't put a sidewalk in anyways. Even if we said put one'in, we wouldn't have the ability to do that at this point, one. Two, we can schedule during this period of time something I hope beyond simply a brainstorming session where we could bring in public safety and other entities to see what realistic options might exist. Teresa Burgess: If there's interest in the neighborhood, we really need that neighborhood involvement. It's pointless for the city staff to go forward without them. Councilman Ayotte: Oh I understand. Teresa Burgess: We could certainly get a sidewalk in, but it would require approval and authorization yet tonight for us to really have that happen. And I would be uncomfortable doing that based on the number of negative responses we received from the public. We 'really should be aiming for next construction season if we're going to do something. It is possible for us to do some of the low tech things that we could do yet this year, but at the same time we need to evaluate what' really works for this neighborhood and if that's adequate for the neighborhood, what they' re looking for. To go out there and do some of these things without really exploring it would a waste of time and resources. Councilman Ayotte: Has there been anything done with respect to analyzing how many children in the area? The issue with congestion in that portion of the street. Has there been anything done along that line? So we can quantify how big of a safety issue it is. Teresa Burgess: We have not done that. We usually don't count children. It's more of a neighborhood support issue. If the neighborhood wants it, it doesn't matter if there's only one child or if there's 40. It really is important that the property owners make that decision and they need to feel it's an important issue. As long as we have not had safety concerns that are raised by this city. In this case we have done speed counts. Traffic is moving according to the speed limit. They are well within what would be considered normal traffic patterns. We don't have a specific issue. We haven't had accidents that are, we haven't had any tragedies in this neighborhood, which hopefully will not occur. So there's nothing here to trigger the city to come in and force a project. Councilman Ayotte: No, I'm not saying force. I'm just asking whether or not there's been. Teresa Burgess: This is something the neighborhood really needs to decide and at this point they are requesting that it be denied based on the input that we' ve received to date. Councilman Ayotte: Okay, thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. And you did mention that you have recommended the Project Leadfoot in this area. That is one vehicle that we have used as a community to help in some of these neighborhood situations with the traffic and the speeding, so what I'm hearing staff say is 27 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 there are other options and alternatives to explore. They're not going to force the situation. It needs to be an open public discussion with all of the neighborhoods to come up with what in fact those options and alternatives can be. Before I open this to public hearing, obviously realizing we have a lot of folks here to speak to this. As Teresa mentioned, we have copies of all of the e- mails. I'm sure everyone has gone through the e-mails in our packets. Typically what we're looking for this evening is if you have any additional information to share with us, please do. If someone before you has well stated exactly what it is you want to get up and state, please rely on that person for having expressed and our having heard those points. So I would say that with the overwhelming pressure that we have at this point, and the polls from that neighborhood and the landowners to not do this sidewalk, we are going to be taking staffs recommendation and hopefully everyone will be able to come together and maybe come up with some of these other options and alternatives. So with that said I will open this up to the public heating and anyone who wants to address the council on this issue, if you step forward to the podium. I need you to just state your name and address for the record. Thank you. Mike Auer: I'm Mike Auer, 910 Lake Susan Drive. Mayor Jansen: Good evening. Mike Auer: I've lived on this street for 12 years. I'm against the sidewalk, but I would like to recommend that, if you notice that Lake Susan Drive is kind of a shortcut or a corner between 101 and Lyman Boulevard, and some people choose to cut that corner with our street. And I disagree with the studies you say you've done about the speeding. I see people speed on this street almost every day. I think overall our streets are pretty quiet, but there's this idea that Lake Susan Drive is, has two uncontrolled intersections at it, and I'm suggesting maybe stop signs at those intersections. And possibly more signage. I think that would do a lot to alleviate the speeding and rnight give us a comfort level with walking on a street that we don't have today. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Mike Auer: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Anyone else with comments to add? Tina Schreur: I'm Tina Schreur at 921 Lake Susan Drive. Mayor Jansen: You can pull that down, there you go. Tina Schreur: I'm against the sidewalk as well, and I'm for putting up additional stop signs. And also I don't know what it requires to reduce the speed in our neighborhood because I do believe that 30 miles an hour, when you're driving 30 miles an hour down our street does seem fairly fast. I think it could be reduced to 20. And also maybe a sign that people are aware that there is Children at Play. I've seen many neighborhoods with signs that say Children at Play. I think there's other, these options are to be much more, are to be way discovered before putting in a sidewalk in people's front yards. There's much more options out there besides doing that. I'm willing to pay for all the signs, whatever we need to do but I just, I truly believe that not everything has been brought out to the open to figure out how we can resolve it. Mayor Jansen: Certainly, thank you. And again I think as staff mentioned, the sidewalk was explored at this point due to a petition from the neighborhood to take a look at the sidewalk. It certainly wasn't something that the city instigated so, you know we reacted to the public request 28 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 at that point and we' ve done the feasibility study but obviously now there are some other options as staff had said, that we can further explore and especially if what we're looking for are some of the answers to some of the safety issues. And that Project Leadfoot has been successful in numerous of the neighborhoods that have implemented that so that's at least a starting point. But just, you know there are obviously things that can still be worked through as far as options. You had a comment Teresa? Teresa Burgess: Madam Mayor, I've heard a couple people ask about stop signs. I just wanted to address that real quick. We, as the city of Chanhassen, are required to follow what's known as the Minnesota Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices. We do not install the traffic signage that does not meet that criteria, and we can certainly look at those intersections through Lake Susan, but if they do not meet the criteria outlined in that manual, we will not put up traffic signage. The other thing is the request for reduced speed limits. Those are done through the State of Minnesota. The DOT is the only one with authority to do that. We recently requested two speed studies. One was in, on Oxbow Bend, which has significantly tighter curves than Lake Susan, but is very similar in make-up, and that was denied. They have indicated that 30 miles an hour is appropriate there. And they have, I spoke at length with Ed Brown from the Department of Transportation and he stated that unless there is a condition such as a school or a park that indicates an alternatives, they do not support lowering a speed limit in a standard neighborhood. The other issue was Children at Play signs. That type of signage. Those are no longer recommended. It used to be a standard thing to do. Nationally there has been no indication that they provide any safety for children, and there's actually some concern that that type of signage provides a false sense of security. Parents then let down their guard and let children play closer to the road than they normally would, and so there is a movement to not install that type of signage. Chanhassen no longer installs Children at Play signs, unless it's adjacent to a park area or something that someone would be unaware if they did not live in the neighborhood. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Go ahead and approach the podium. Thank you. Martha Newell: Hello. Martha Newell, 900 Lake Susan Drive. I again am opposed, as my neighbors for the sidewalk, though I think there are alternative measures to be taken that we as a neighborhood, I think should get together at some point here in the near future. Myself with a 3 year old, I see the need for added safety and protection. Though one thought that comes to mind. I've been a resident in Chanhassen for just over a year now, and I too was saying well I haven't seen a speed limit sign on our road, not even knowing that there was a speed limit sign on each end of the roads, and it' s mirroring each of the corners of Lake Susan Drive so, again it took me a year to recognize that there even was a speed limit sign of 30, which I, you know I think again is excessive. I would say that 20 to 25 is more in line with our needs of safety. So perhaps a request or moving the existing speed limit signs closer into Lake Susan Drive, as opposed to the outside edges may give a little bit of impact and awareness to people coming onto our street. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. John Sanders: Hi. John Sanders, 1100 Lake Susan Drive. I was all for the sidewalk, and I guess I'm disappointed that so many neighbors are against it. I guess my question to the board is, when my wife first started going around the neighborhood for signatures to see who was interested in a study for this, she got more than 50 percent of the houses as required. And now all of a sudden so many people are against it. I've got to think that it's because of the cost. And I guess my question is, has it been discussed or is there anything saying how many years it would be assessed over. If it's assessed over 5 years, that would come to $30 a month, and maybe if people realized that, it might help them think along different lines. Is that a question you can answer? 29 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Teresa, what's been proposed? Teresa Burgess: Staff typically recommends an assessment of $2,000 or more be spread out 8 to 10 years. That is a council decision. We typically bring those to you at the time of final assessment roll. If this project was being recommended we would be talking about that tonight... to pay off the principle either in whole or in part. And at 8 years it does come out under, just under $30 per month. The other option that property owners should keep in mind is what was proposed. Because we don't like to go up from assessment rolls, what we've proposed was a concrete sidewalk. This is conceptual and we took into account all of the things that would potentially need to be done. Going back and looking at putting the trail in an alternative location or going with asphalt instead of concrete may lower the cost of the project significantly. We also assumed that the driveways would be inadequate to support the sidewalk and that we would need to put in sidewalk across each of the driveways assuming that they would not be in good enough condition for us to cross. That typically is not the case. However we need to assume it for initial costing of the project, which could again lower the cost, although not significantly because that's a small amount. So we can work with neighborhoods. If cost is the issue, we didn't just hear cost was too high though. We also heard people didn't want a sidewalk. And that's why I'm recommending that we meet with the neighborhood and talk. It is common for these projects to be killed the first time they come through with a petition. That doesn't mean that we don't end up doing them. It just means that we need to meet with the neighborhood a couple of times and then re-evaluate what we want to do. In this case we had a petition asking specifically for sidewalk and we evaluated that issue and unfortunately it is not going to go under this petition. That doesn't mean we won't do something. Mayor Jansen: But now at least you have a basis for some of those discussions to maybe tweak it a little bit as you're saying, to make it maybe more palatable for the adjoining property owners and for those that would be assessed so potentially the project isn't 100 percent dead. But hopefully all the neighbors can get together and figure out, which of all of these alternatives are appealing to the majority of the residents so appreciate your efforts in having organized the initial petition to bring this at least to the neighborhood attention to maybe help organize the project. That's a positive. John Sanders: ...my wife. Mayor Jansen: Well, her efforts are appreciated and maybe look at that as a positive. You've started the discussions and now it's just a matter of staying with it and coming up with the fight solution. This was just one alternative and maybe some of the research that was needed to be done in order to proceed with some sort of a project. John Sanders: I just wanted to make sure all the neighbors realized that. That's not a definite cost in one year's time. That if it's over 8 or 10 years, then we reduce the cost by using blacktop instead of cement, or whatever and it down to $12 a month, isn't that worth our children's safety for $12 a month or whatever. Something to look into at least. Mayor Jansen: Sure, thank you. Paul Larson: I'm Paul Larson, 1061 Lake Susan Drive. Mayor Jansen: Good evening. Paul Larson: This is Caitlin. 30 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Hi Caitlin. Paul Larson: This is my child. Mayor Jansen: Who needs a sidewalk. Paul Larson: I'm, you know, I'm still for the sidewalk but there's also a lot of things that we need to do. Now I was going to mention those signs for 30 miles an hour. 30 miles an hour is the speed limit. It is definitely by all means not a recommendation that yOu need to drive 30 miles an hour. So what I'm urging is that we do something this year. My child's life is worth more than anything in'the world. Okay, if it takes I mean, I stand out on my driveway. If I see somebody driving too fast, I very well let them know that it's too fast, and I'm sure a lot of people in the audience have seen me out there and/or have heard from me. I'm very vocal in the neighborhood and by the chuckles you understand. So what I need to do is urge that we do something. This is my child. If I lose my child, there's no cost. Mayor Jansen: And perhaps you can help with coordination of the Project Leadfoot. That is a cooperation between the neighborhood and the city where we've involved in some of the speed studies, and you're involved in some of the, you know putting up signs in order to get drivers attention and it really. Paul Larson: I've got a post hole digger. I can put up the signs myself if need be. Mayor Jansen: Great. Please, they're a little simpler than that. Paul Larson: The other thing is. Councilman Labatt: Call Gopher State fh:st before. Just call before you dig right? Paul Larson: The other thing is, I would like to urge that the Project Leadfoot and even the neighborhood meeting that we get that moving forward. I mean school's coming up and Lake Susan Drive is a short cut, like everybody says, for the high school. We have lots of teenagers who have their drivers license and they don't understand. In fact I've stopped several teenagers that don't understand the cost of a child's life. It's the most important thing and that's the most important thing that everybody has right here as far as I'm concerned. So we need to get it moving forward this year. That's it. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. We'll make sure that the public safety people get a hold of you as far as establishing maybe the contact on the Project Leadfoot. Councilman Boyle: Did you say you're going to coordinate this, I mean this is obviously a neighborhood situation. It's no longer really a council situation. Teresa Burgess: No. In meeting with the neighborhood will require some desire from the neighborhood. We will certainly work with the people that actually initiated the original petition to see if they're interested in continuing forward. Councilman Boyle: But they shouldn't wait for you. They really need to initiate a meeting, do they not? Mayor Jansen: Well with Project Leadfoot, they in fact can proceed with that. 31 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Teresa Burgess: Project Leadfoot is a different process. Mayor Jansen: Yep. Teresa Burgess: Meeting with the neighborhood, we can do that at any time. I would recommend that we wait. I know there's always that, let's get to it right away because it's important but I would recommend we wait at least a couple weeks, just because we're doing this process and it's good to give everybody a few weeks to kind of cool down, and then we can talk about this with a cool head and what do we want to do to address this. Do we want to pursue a sidewalk? What are the issues that people don't want the sidewalk? And we can talk about it not from a, the council approved it, the council denied it standpoint, or it's a bad idea, good idea, but really from a standpoint of, okay this is a dead project. But let's talk about, do we want a sidewalk as a clean, separate project. And also, this petition, just because we're not approving a project tonight, is not a failure. I want to stress that for the neighborhood and for people that are considering doing these petitions. They initiated discussion. You have gotten your neighborhood together. They have talked to each other not just one but several times as they've gone through this process. They signed the original petition. They talked about it with each other. Do we want this? They talked about the feasibility study. We had people talking over the back of their fences, and there was a petition drive to object to this sidewalk. Not necessarily a sidewalk but this sidewalk, and that's a good thing. We've now initiated that conversation. We now have a starting point to go forward from, and so I don't want anybody that worked on this petition to feel like they've failed. They have started people thinking and talking about the safety issues and gotten them involved just by coming down here tonight, taking the time to e-mail the council. A lot of people don't do that and so you've started the conversation so it's a good starting point and I am certainly available. Matt Saam has left for the night but he is here also and he would be available if I'm not the evening that we want to set up a meeting, and either of us would be happy to meet with you and talk about some options that you have for your area and addressing your safety concerns, and what we can do from our end to help you to address those concerns. Mayor Jansen: And so as they're getting organized, and obviously we have a few people that I think will jump in and maybe act as coordinators we'll hope, they can contact you as far as getting a follow-up meeting set up with you in the next couple of weeks to continue to have these discussions, as well as pursuing the Project Leadfoot through the public safety department. Teresa Burgess: Right, and we really do need at least a week to set up those meetings so we can get notices out for people. We find this time of year, as we're coming into the school season, people need a week, week and a half to really get things on their calendar so we're really out that far even if we were to decide tonight we're going to have a meeting. We're still 2 or 3 weeks out before we could hold one because we need to talk about where and when and then get notices out to people so that they make sure that they get it on their calendar. Mayor Jansen: Okay, great. Anyone else? Councilman Ayotte: I got a quick question that might influence the public comments. Mayor Jansen: Okay, we've got one question for Councilman Ayotte and then we'll continue the public heating. 32 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: Is there a reason why we couldn't defer a decision on this and table it until more fact finding is done with respect to public safety options and possibly other sidewalk options? Mayor Jansen: We can always come back to this if this ends up being the option, but I'm hearing pretty overwhelmingly, this is going to be a different project when it comes before us again. Teresa Burgess: It's cleaner to close this feasibility study and open another one. We'll probably have the same project number and it will be A, B, C, but it's not uncommon, if you go back and look at our files, to find multiple feasibility studies. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Anyone else who would like to comment on this project, please come forward. Chris Deschneau: Good evening. My name is Chris Deschneau. I'm from 901 Lake Susan Drive. I have been in the neighborhood for only about 2 months now so I wasn't even a part of the area when it was the original study was set up. The original petition and I've even, some of the mailings that I've seen, even the petition that I signed against a sidewalk earlier in July, my name and all the records from myself and my wife are not even listed there so I just want to make sure that for the record that I am not. Mayor Jansen: You're on the record. Chris Deschneau: ...any of that so, and I was just, another quick question for, I don't know if it's for one of the staff members at all about, like if anyone in the neighborhood wanted to contact the State or the Department of Transportation about any of this, like how these studies are conducted, would we want to talk to you or do we just call the State or how do we want to... Teresa Burgess: There's a couple of places you can get information on speed studies. I have a brochure in my office if you want it. You can either call and I'll mail it out or you can stop in and pick it up and then we'll explain it to you and go through it with you and answer any questions. The other alternative, if you go to the city web site, there is a hot link from the engineering web site that's, as you go through the options, that goes to the MnDot web site and will give you the same brochure that I have in my office so it's up to you which way you want to go. The city web site is www.ci.chanhassen.mn.us. There's a lot of very good information, both on the city web site and on the MnDot web site, and if you missed that, feel free to give me a call tomorrow and I will give it to you again. Or if you want me to just mail out the brochure, I'd be happy to. I do have a limited number of them in print, so I do encourage people that access to the web to use it. Chris Deschneau: Thank you very much. Mayor Jansen: You're welcome, thank you. Anyone else who would like to comment on this project? Okay. I'm going to close the public hearing and thank all of you for taking time out from your evening to come in and talk to us about this project. To those of you who circulated the first petition as well as the second petition, we thank you for getting involved. I think one of the most encouraging things is seeing neighborhoods come together. Whether it's around something that you're opposed to, or that you're supporting, it's amazing how neighborhoods can pull together and actually get things accomplished so we hope that you keep these lines of communication open over the next couple weeks, over the next couple of months as we work out what options may be available to us. And I do encourage you to jump in and implement that Project Leadfoot. Getting a hold of our Public Safety Department and seeing if that's something 33 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 that can have some immediate results for you. I think you are the type of a neighborhood and a situation that they would very readily apply that project to. But thank you for taking your time here this evening. I'll bring this back to council. Council, any comments or I will call for a motion. Councilman Ayotte: I'm going to make a comment. There are other things that can happen in a neighborhood and I think as Teresa also always does, is pretty accurate in her depiction of what we cannot do and what we can do. But for those individuals that are in the audience, for those individuals at home, e-mail your council. Give us your thoughts. Don't just use Department of Transportation as a source. I personally am not going for the sidewalk for other reasons, but I do know that ingress and egress to your neighborhood is extremely important So start communicating more with us to look for options for some of the things that you suggest. Let's identify the requirement and let the experts like Burgess and others come up with the solutions. So you can get involved and it can happen quickly. It can happen quickly so please understand that. This councilman wants to hear from you. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: If I could have a motion please. Councilman Boyle: I'd make a motion that we deny the request for the Lake Susan Drive sidewalk. Mayor Jansen: And we are accepting the feasibility report, or we receiving the feasibility report, correct? Teresa Burgess: You are adopting the feasibility report. Councilman Boyle: We are adopting, okay. And adopting the feasibility report. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And a second please. Councilman Ayotte: I second that. Resolution #2002-79: Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council adopt the feasibility study and deny the request for the Lake Susan Drive sidewalk. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: And the motion carries to deny the project, and all we have done is accepted the feasibility report so again, thank you for being here this evening and sorry it did get a little bit long on you with the other item that was on the agenda. Appreciate your involvement. PUBLIC HEARING: SUPPLEMENTAL ASSESSMENT HEARING FOR MSA IMPROVEMENT PRO ECT No. 01-08 ~PARK NICOLLET PROPERTY). Teresa Burgess: I'm sorry. I'm just trying to mop up from the last item. As council remembers, in June of 2002 the City awarded a contract for public improvements to Lake Drive East, Lake Drive, Audubon Road north of Lake Drive, Coulter Boulevard from Audubon Road to the Pillsbury property line, Saddlebrook Curve and Steller Court was eliminated from that project. The improvements included repair of failed areas, replacement of broken curb and gutter, milling of existing asphalt and installation of new asphalt. That project is currently underway and on July 8 of 2002 we adopted an assessment roll for the project. At that time the American Legion property had split into two lots and we adjusted their assessment during that July 8th hearing to 50 34 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 percent of the assessment that was originally proposed for the lot with the remaining 50 percent to be applied to the new lot that had been created. Tonight's assessment hearing is for that new lot only, and it is a public hearing. There is only one property that is on the assessment roll, and that is Lot 1, Block 1, Park Nicollet First Addition. So if there's any questions from the council, I'd be happy to answer those. Otherwise I'll move out of the way. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Any questions for staff at this time? This is a public hearing so I will open this for any comments from anyone in the audience on this agenda item. Seeing no one, I'll close the public hearing and bring this back to council. Just Teresa so we're clear, the amount of the assessment hasn't changed from what we reviewed originally. It's just being split between the two lots. Teresa Burgess: Correct. We took the assessment that was originally proposed and divided it into two equal amounts to go onto the two new lots. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions or comments? If I could have a motion please. Councilman Boyle: I do have one quick question. The Legion still says they're against it, right? Based on this letter. Teresa Burgess: The Legion has contested the assessment. There is a copy of their contention in the file. That is their legal right. They do have the right to go to District Court if they feel that the council's action is inappropriate if you adopt it tonight, h is in keeping with the assessment practice and also in keeping with what was done on the remainder of the project. And I would like to add for the council to understand, and for the public also, if this split had occurred prior to the original feasibility study, and at that time we would have added that parcel, it would have been assessed the same amount as everybody else instead of having a split assessment between the two parcels. Mayor Jansen: So it's actually less than it would have been from what you just said, correct? Teresa Burgess: Correct. If they had split 2 months earlier they would have received full assessment on both parcels. Mayor Jansen: Whereas now it's 50/50 of one assessment. Teresa Burgess: Correct. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Teresa Burgess: And that was based on advice of legal counsel that this was the appropriate way to handle it at this time. Councilman Boyle: Okay. Mayor Jansen: Thank you for clarifying that. Council, if I could have a motion please. Todd Gerhardt: Did we get public comment? Teresa Burgess: This is a public hearing. 35 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Councilman Labatt: Move that we approve the supplemental assessment roll for City Project 01- 08. Mayor Jansen: And a second please. Councilman Peterson: Second. Resolution #2002-80: Councilman Labatt, Councilman Peterson seconded that the City Council approve Supplemental Assessment Roll for City Project No. 01-08. All voted in favor, except Councilman Boyle who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. APPEAL PLANNING COMMISSION DECISION REGARDING A REQUEST FOR A SETBACK VARIANCE FOR THE RECONSTRUCTION OF A DETACHED GARAGE ON A LOT OF RECORD ZONED RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND LOCATED AT 6681 HORSESHOE CURVE, JEFF & JUDY KVILHAUG. Jason Angell: Thank you Madam Mayor. The request is for a 16 foot variance from the front yard setback, and a 5 foot variance from the side yard setback, and also to allow for a 29 percent hard cover surface. I have put up a location map here for you. Northeast corner of Lotus Lake Estates on Horseshoe Curve, and then also I'll just put up some quick drawings so you can see what is CUlTently existing and what is proposed out there. As you can see the current location of the garage and then the proposal is actually to shift the garage on the south side of the property, and also deeper in on the property. The applicant and the architect are here and have some new information they would like to present. They have promised to keep it brief, and also I'll answer any questions you may have. Planning Commission is recommending approval on this item, and with that I'll give it back to you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Appreciate that. And as was just mentioned, the Planning Commission did approve this but not by enough votes so it is coming to us with a recommendation for approval. Good evening, how are you this evening? Brian Nowak: Good evening. Mayor Jansen: If you could state your name and address for the record please. Brian Nowak: Yeah, I'm Brian Nowak, 1735 Perkins Lane. I'm the architect for the applicant. Judy Kvilhaug: And I am Judy Kvilhaug, 6681 Horseshoe Curve and I'm the resident. Mayor Jansen: Good evening. Brian Nowak: We just wanted to go over a couple things quickly. The major hardships in the project are the topography. There's an 11 foot drop from the street to the house. There's an irregular shaped lot and there's only a 50 foot current width, which was the original lot that came into effect before the zoning came into effect. Currently the zoning is based on a 90 foot width, and part of the reason we're presenting is we felt that if we had maybe described this little stronger to the Planning Commission, they might have understood some of the reasons for the siting of the garage. When we looked at the house we looked at aesthetic concerns and safety concerns. And a streetscape. An opportunity to create something nice on Horseshoe Curve. Horseshoe Curve is an older lake neighborhood that was once was a lot of cabins. Has many garages right on the street so we were conscience of that. And what happens in a 50 foot lot, if 36 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 we were to center the building or the garage on the house, it has dramatic effect for the Kvilhaug's and I've got two pictures I'd like to show very quickly. This particular drawing is what we're proposing to do that shows the garage. It's taken from a view just off the street looking at the house and the house adjacent to it, and there is a large oak tree in about that location. If we were to move the house towards the center, this is the same picture and you can see it virtually obscures the house behind the garage. And there's a couple of concerns there. Besides the aesthetics, safety concerns. Judy being able to see her kids playing up on the street area. Concern of having some section of usable front yard and centering the garage eliminates that. And the last item really is that there's an opportunity because the adjacent garage on the right side is on the opposite side, we create a nice green space and a view, a peak out onto Lotus Lake. Those are our reasons. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you. Any questions for the applicant? Okay, thank you. Appreciate it. I'll bring this back to council and as has been noted by staff and why the Planning Commission recommended this was that it does reduce the non-conformity on the side and the front yard setbacks as well as reducing the hard surface coverage percent. So though it is still a variance request, it's not uncommon for there to be a staff recommendation, as well as Planning Commission for the reduction of this non-conformity on the property. So with that I'll bring it back to council, if there's any discussion. Otherwise I'll call for a motion please. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Boyle: Second. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council approves Variance g02-10 for a 16 foot variance from the 30 foot front yard setback, a 5 foot variance to the 10 foot side yard setback, and to allow the hardcover surface to cover 3,256 (29 %) of the property for the construction of a detached garage including a home addition, with the following conditions: , The applicant will submit a survey that shows the elevation at the edge of bituminous and a drainage swale between the garage and the residence. 2. A building permit must be obtained before beginning any construction. 3. Contact the building department for demolition permit requirements. 4. The setback must be measured from the eave to the property lines. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: Mayor Jansen: Are there any council presentations this evening? Councilman Peterson: The only question that I've got is talking about Lotus Lake. I know Minnetonka has put a no wake zone. We've had this discussion before. Todd's ears kind of perked up but he's not listening so. 37 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Todd, this would be a good one for you to be listening to please, thank you. Councilman Peterson: No wake zone on Lotus Lake, or the other lakes. I mean we've got some of the highest water levels in years right now. I know it's the proverbial hard to enforce, but at least saying that we have it and letting the newspaper advertise it. Are we at a value to that? I've gotten one call. I don't know whether you guys have gotten. Councilman Boyle: I'm surprised we haven't heard more. Mayor Jansen: No, I haven't gotten any phone calls. Councilman Peterson: From what I've heard, it's the worst it's ever been. Mayor Jansen: It absolutely is. We have docks that are floating. But Lotus Lake, the last time this occurred, there were no wake signs that were put up at the public access. Todd Gerhardt: And they didn't last more than a day. I think we can do a PR article in the newspaper. Get something on our web site. There's a lot of residents that have visited our home page, and try to get the word out. But enforcement is the biggest issue and after Labor Day weekend, traffic on the lakes will probably go down with the exception of the weekends. Dave's not here. It would have been a good question to ask Dave. What water patrol is doing on enforcement of that. Councilman Peterson: Well we don't have it right now, active so they're not enforcing it, right? Todd Gerhardt: Well they can. It's an ordinance on the book. Councihnan Peterson: But we have to declare a no wake zone and we haven't done that as my understanding. Todd Gerhardt: I don't think you have to declare it. Councilman Peterson: Well somebody in staff has to declare it. I'm not saying us. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, it's whenever you go over the 100 year high water mark: and there's a marker over on the east side of Lotus Lake. Lori goes out and verifies it so we can declare that and talk to Dave about enforcing it. If he happens to be on the lake that weekend. Councilman Boyle: I know it's difficult to enforce but I was on Lake Minnetonka Saturday and I have to admit when it said no wake, boy those boats, they were slowing down. And there's not a lot of enforcement going on either but they slowed down just from the sign. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, I noticed there was Channel 5 had on their newscast, told everybody what the rules were and try to live by them. Mayor Jansen: Okay, why don't we go ahead and have Lori take a look at that and maybe contact the Villager as far as anything that they've considered possibly running. I believe a year ago when we were dealing with this issue, they did run an article, and it might just get people's attention. Enough to pay attention to it. Though the water levels are going down. Who knows how quickly though they'll go down. 38 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 Todd Gerhardt: On Lotus it doesn't drain as fast as some of the other lakes. Mayor Jansen: Yeah. So why don't you go ahead and take a look at that. Thank you for bringing that up. Anything else? ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS. Todd Gerhardt: Just to keep the council up to date on Boyer. We have a meeting tomorrow at 10:30 with the Watershed District, Water and Soil Conservation District, DNR and city staff and city attorney, and we'll be coming back with you on just a recommendations on how to handle that situation. The final plat was on for tonight, but due to the issues that went on there, staff pulled it off but we are up against that 60 day window and we need to take action before we exceed that 60 days so we want to place those conditions on that property. We don't want to miss out on that opportunity. But we definitely can make them put it back to it's original state at least and there will be more conditions probably, after we look at it. Roger, did you want to make any comments on that issue at all? Roger Knutson: No. We're taking it very, very seriously as you would expect and we'll be meeting with all of the agencies so we can speak with one voice and remedy the situation as best you can after something as horrible has happened. Councilman Peterson: Was it arrogance Or ignorance? Roger Knutson: Arrogance. Mayor Jansen: Pursue it strenuously. Thank you for as quickly as you did react and putting the stop work on when you did find that so. Councilman Labatt: How did staff become alerted to it? Todd Gerhardt: I think it was a call from the neighbor is what I was told. Mayor Jansen: You'd almost have to assume. It doesn't hurt to be aware of what's going on around you. Okay. Todd Gerhardt: Right. Another item, you will be seeing a site plan on the land next to Applebee' s. You have a purchase agreement with a party on that and they are following through with that purchase agreement and will be making submittal to the City by the end of August for two restaurants... I did put a memo in your bin upstairs from Barry Pettit, the architect on the library project weighing out some concerns on the delay due to weather and trying to coordinate some of the poor soils that are on the site so, just wanted to give you the heads up. It's kind of a wait and see, depending on what kind of fall we have. We continue to push the contractor to move ahead and make accommodations too so. Thank you for approving the Change Order. That will help in that process and moving that along. Get that utility work, complete the footings on the north end of the building. If you look out there, there's no footings on the north end, and that's to accommodate for the poor soils in that area so. And I will be scheduling another meeting with the council to talk about the coffee shop in the library sometime in September. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And maybe while you're mentioning the library, I don't think it would hurt to mention that during our work session this evening we did have Commissioner Siegfried join us and the question was posed by Councilman Labatt as to what exactly is going on with 39 City Council Meeting - August 26, 2002 some of these conversations that we're reading about in the Villager from our residents about whether the County is fully going to be funding and supporting the library once it's open. And based upon that conversation, the council and the, hopefully the County Board, will have some conversations about what the intent is and how we move forward with that project. Our part is obviously done once we have the building complete. We are concerned that they do their part and properly open it and fund it so we'll be having those conversations and appreciated Councilman Labatt bringing that up this evening. Todd Gerhardt: And that's another one of the concerns I have with the coffee shop. If we're not fully going to have operational of the library, that will affect the potential revenue that would come into that coffee shop so that's one of the concerns I have as we go down that lane. Mayor Jansen: Okay, very good. Anything else? Todd Gerhardt: No, that's it. Councilman Boyle: Todd, any update or anything new on the bowling alley? Todd Gerhardt: Nothing to date. We have a slight mold problem in the building as some of the roof leaks. We have a mold situation. We have gone in there with some bleach and tried to disinfect an area. As to potential buyers, we continue to talk to people. We do have another meeting, not set up yet but other potential retail users and if I run out of options here in the next couple of months, I may bring the EDA back to talk about other potential solutions to redeveloping the site. Councihnan Boyle: Good. Mayor Jansen: Very good. Any other questions? If I could have a motion to adjourn please. Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to adjourn the City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:05 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 40 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JULY 23, 2002 Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Jack Spizale, Amy O' Shea, Glenn Stolar, Paula Atkins, Tom Kelly and David Happe MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director and Corey Hoen, Recreation Supervisor APPROVAL OF AGENDA: The agenda was amended to add an item number 6, discussion points for the joint meeting with the City Council and Park and Recreation Commission. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Andy Joe: Hi. My name is Andy Joe. My address is 563 Summerfield Drive, and that's in the Springfield development. And we live just on the north side of Bandimere Park. There's a drainage pond just between the soccer fields and our back yard, and so there's a couple issues I just wanted to address and bring up. First issue is, the way the soccer fields are situated, where you typically end up with, at least on an average of 2 to 3 soccer balls in our pond, you know during the course of a week. A lot of times, like let' s see here. Just like last week, there was about 6 balls that ended up in the pond during one of the tournament nights. There' s another incident this weekend where one of the team coaches allowed some of the players to urinate on some of the neighbor's trees. So there's really no delineation of where the Bandimere property line ends and where the neighborhood starts, or the homeowner's property starts. So really there' s, the problem again arises because the soccer ball ends up in the neighborhood yards, in the pond, and then of course you know they've got to try to retrieve their balls. So you get strangers walking in our back yards. Over the course of the last couple of years I've seen, you know most of the soccer people are real nice, and most of them are pretty good about trying to retrieve their balls but every once in a while you tend to get people you know even some of the adults, trying to break branches off of the trees. You know trying to use them as sticks or an object to retrieve their balls. My wife has had some people come and take landscaping rocks out of our landscaping and throwing them in the pond trying to get them to splash and causing the waves to carry the soccer balls to the edge. There's other incidents. Another incident was last year a kid even stripped down to his shorts, jumped into the pond and swam to retrieve his ball. So you know like I said, I understand that the soccer teams, they need to try to retrieve their equipment but it's also disturbing when You get strangers walking in your back yard and your children are in the back yard playing and you don't know who they are so. So that's sort of a concern that we have. The park maintenance tried an attempt at fixing it a couple times by putting up one of those like plastic snow fences along the edges there which is again 4 feet high, and that sort of resolved the problem a little bit. You know about half the balls would hit it and it would stop it. The other half would either go over it and, or to the side of it. The other problem with that too is that after every winter the plastic fencing would get all crushed and break off and. get brittley and it would end up you know with the high winds we have in Chanhassen, they end up breaking off and Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 flying off into Bandimere somewhere. So it also tends to be quite an eyesore with a fence that's all beat up and ripped apart so. I guess what we would like to see is some type of shrubbery or hedges planted along that north side there. I think that would solve the problem of most of the soccer balls going into the pond or into the neighborhood. They would also act as a natural buffer zone in keeping debris and garbage out of the pond, which is what they're designed you know to keep. You know to keep our waters and that, the environmental hazards out of it so I think that would help. And in addition also I think it would be nice to have some private property signs put up so the people in the park are aware that this is homeowners property and they might think about not breaking off branches from the trees and so forth, you know so. The second issue I'd like to bring up is the issue of tennis courts. I read the minutes from the last, the previous two meetings, and there's some comments made about tennis courts not being very popular anymore and not being used. Well my wife went out this afternoon and decided to see how many people would sign a petition as far as wanting tennis courts in Bandimere, and she's got a list of 25, do my math here. 32 names. This is what, in 2 1/2 hours. So we would like to see the tennis courts remain. And the other thing I was looking at too is, there's some comments about the hard court, which is like a hop scotch court or something like that, because of Phase II of the playground area not having space. So my thoughts on that was, combine both the tennis court and the hop scotch court and basketball court all in one area. It's all asphalt and then you've got 3 things you can do in one area. So just a thought. But anyways, like I said, we got 32 names, or families that would like a tennis court in Bandimere Park. Third issue I'd like to bring up are the ballfield lighting. And again most of the residents in Springfield, and in our neighborhood, feel opposed to having lighting at least directly on the soccer fields. If not lighting in the whole park itself, but the immediate concern is the soccer fields because there's a bunch of homes that back up right to the soccer fields itself. Part of the problem too, once you bring in lights, it expands the amount of time that you have noise from tournaments, people yelling, shouting. You know depending on what time the lights go off at night. I've seen playing softball games at other parks in the past, you have people out in the parks until 10:00-10:30 at night. You know games going on that late at night, and depending on what kind of drinking restrictions you have or don't have, you know people tend to hang around and socialize and that too so you still get noise from the park. So again my wife went around the neighborhood and collected 29 signatures here. Neighbors from Springfield that would, are opposed to ballfield lights. A couple just other items too. One, I just wanted to touch on was the tree maintenance. There's a dead pine tree on the corner of, one of the soccer fields I just wanted to bring up. I didn't know who I should contact about that. The second thing is just more or less a comment, since you guys are the Park and Rec Commission. I' ve talked with a lot of other friends through baseball and that and their kids play soccer at Bandimere and they always, the one comment I always hear is, parking's a nightmare over there because of how many games and how many kids they have going on over there. The other comment I get, or I hear a lot is the entrance to the park being on top of a hill is sort of dangerous. It's sort of in a blind spot so I just thought I'd pass along those last two comments. And that's about it. Franks: Great, thank you. Andy Joe: Thank you. Franks: Is there anyone else wishing to address the commission on these same, similar issues? Maybe we'll just hear from everybody and then we'll take discussions from the commission. Ron Styrka: Yes, hello. My name is Ron Styrka and I'm at 569 Summerfield Drive also and it's the san*re kind of situation too. Basically there's a lot of activity that happens in the park, and it's good activity, and the neighborhood really does like it. I mean to hear the shouting on Sundays Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 and everything, it' s really good. We do have a lot of fun with it, and limiting the amount of use, especially with the lights, especially on the soccer fields...would actually be a benefit because other friends of mine live in neighborhoods where they have lighting and it seems like it goes longer and longer and longer. It gets really late into the evening and it does cause a lot of noise and I did speak with, I'm not sure if it was Todd or Corey, about the possibility of something very similar to what Andy was saying. If we could have some kind of natural barrier like a sumac bush or something that grow up really tall that could prevent some of these balls from going into the lake, it really would take a lot of the pressure off the balls going into this pond. And yet it wouldn't be an eyesore like a very high fence would be, so I mean I agree with all that Andy is saying. The neighborhood feels very similar to that too so. The only other thing that I mentioned too is, in reading through the notes, I take a little bit of a conservative approach for some of the expenses being spent sometimes in Bandimere Park, and if we're looking at $25,000 being the, you know for the silo and some of those issues, I personally feel, as do other people in the neighborhood too. Maybe take some of that money and redirect it for more of the paths because Chanhassen currently is kind of a little bit broken up as far as paths. As far as bikes and that coming in from the south. I do know that there's a corridor that's being repaired to go from the south, you know to get into downtown but if we could maybe redirect some of that money towards some of these paths, a lot of people would use it. Especially when you have some of these retail shops being developed over by St. Hubert' s. I mean a lot of people are biking on the trails and actually riding bike as a family kind of coming and going out so I take the approach of maybe redirecting the money for the silo painting or something like this and maybe redirect it more. And the price of some of the lighting. Redirect some of that towards a path and I think you would have a huge benefit. Franks: For your benefit, I can just respond to a few of the arguments, and Todd I'd just request that you~jump in as you feel is appropriate, but just to start with some of the Joe's, and some of the things he came with at the end. Tree maintenance I'm sure Todd has noted. He'll direct the maintenance staff to take a look at that as we're continually replacing and reforesting the trees in the parks system. Parking. It's already been identified as a problem and the Park and Rec Department, as well as the commission is taking a look at that and attempting to work with both associations to try and do what we can to rectify the parking. The entrance has been a difficulty from day one. However, that's the one spot that MnDot allows for the entrance into the park, and we' ve also attempted to make the best of that situation by creating that island so people at least have to slow down as they get to the crest of the hill and look before they make a left turn, but we have accidents from the day the park opened.., so we've been working on that continually too. The tennis courts were part of the original concept plan for Bandimere, and since that time the philosophy of this commission has been to add tennis courts as an amenity in regionally located parks instead of into neighborhood parks, and Bandimere Community Park, Bandimere would fit that designation. However, the utilization of tennis courts throughout the city has been in decline and there are a number of really nice lighted tennis facilities that are available. We drove to today at Lake Susan and City Center and there wasn't anybody playing, so that's something we are continually taking a look at. The commission is currently considering tennis courts as an issue as we look into our capital improvement program out for the next 5 years so it's good to know that people are talking about it and thinking about it too. It's good information for us to have as we engage in that process. Resident: Just the one other thing about Bandimere, it's such an easy access for all the homes in Springfield...people to walk over and play tennis as opposed to jumping in a car with all the kids. Franks: The thing to remember is that Bandimere, I'm not trying to argue. The idea, Bandimere is in a unique position as far as the Springfield neighborhood is concerned because it has the Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 ability to function as a Springfield neighborhood park, and yet at the same time it's a community park as ~vell so what the residents of Springfield view of Bandimere Park might be slightly different than the view of this commission and how we conceptualize Bandimere Park as well, but that again is important for us to understand your perspective as well. Personally I kind of like the idea of trying to deal with the ball screening with a natural kind of screening. I don't have any idea of the effectiveness or plant varieties or how many years it would take to build up a natural screen for that pond issue. Todd, what's been the word from the sports associations on balls in the NURP pond? Hoffman: The fences that are out there were installed by the soccer association as an attempt to minimize that. In conversation with both the neighbors and the association, we budgeted I believe it was about $10,000 or $12,000 to put up what would be black netting, and so there'd be...not very visible. But then galvanized poles I believe up to about 12 feet, and that was cut from the budget and so they were not installed. Vegetation of the height sufficient to stop those soccer balls from going in, do not, with the shrub area is going to be...so you're going to have a better impact on identifying the property line. People are still going to cross to get those soccer balls, if they want to retrieve their soccer balls from the ponds, so it's a problem on both sides. The north side and the south side, and the south side they head out down into the trees and so we would like to net, put nets up on both of those sides to stop that, or reduce that situation. Resident: I don't think the problem is as bad on the soccer field as opposed to the connection. There is a berm there, as you get closer to the kind of... That side is definitely bad. I mean it slopes right down into your pond, and I think as you get more closer to the...berm as a natural stopping point... Ron Stryka: We never see anybody go in those other yards but one thing that we did see, this one night I was...most of the balls are...they're rolling over the edge and that 4 foot height stops most of them and so we thought let's say that you started with say a sumac or something...Sumac bush and they grow, they start here so the first year you're... Stolar: Which homes are your's? Ron Stryka: I'm in this house and Andy's here. Franks: And can you point out the property lines actually? Ron Stryka: The property lines are right, you know mine goes behind. It comes like this and then, well it's kind of a complicated story but the next property line kind of runs right along the fence .... halfway between this trail and the actual line. The one person has the grass cut really smooth so when the balls go past a little bit... So what we're looking for is just something low cost and we' re looking at something that looks good and very appealing. You know if we could do something... Franks: Are you suggesting, just one question. Are you suggesting that these bushes be planted on the property owner's property? Ron Stryka: City property. Franks: Is there enough city property there? Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Hoffman: We'll take a look at that. As a part of the 2003 budget, I'll simply bring forward a variety of alternatives for the commission to consider and...and ask the council... Franks: Are the sports associations, if you would check with them and see if they're willing to participate... Hoffman: Sure. Andy Joe: So this is something... In the near term I would hope still exists where the netting. Pam Joe: Yeah. If we could just put that fence back. Andy Joe: Yeah, in the near term because a quick solution, just rehang that...netting to stop. Pam Joe: ...it really helps. Franks: Well we'll have. Hoffman: We'll call the soccer association. Franks: Yeah, great. And then you take a look at it, staff and provide some alternatives. Hoffman: ...regarding the input from the residents. I believe all the deeds for Summerfield include a disclosure that Bandimere would be a lighted facility in the future. And then the third choice of access for Bandimere was actually through the Summerfield development, but Lundgren was not interested in cooperating with the city to provide... The original access without the median was a bad situation. Now, since the medians have been put in, we probably had a dozen accidents in half a year before the median and afterwards I know one in the past year and a half so... so that has really helped. Resident: Were lights on both the soccer fields and softball fields part of the disclosure or just softball fields? Hoffman: All the fields I believe. Resident: Because I remember the softball fields but they never mentioned the lighting on the soccer fields. We thought that they were so far removed they wouldn't affect hardly anyone in Springfield development, but the soccer lights would affect a lot of people. I remember specifically asking that question to Lundgren and getting, they may put lights on the softball fields you know in 2010. Franks: This is why I brought up the difference between Bandimere Park as a community park as opposed to a neighborhood park. We would not light the fields in neighborhood parks simply because of what a neighborhood park, and you don't use neighborhood parks for that kind of...but a community park on the other hand is designed for more intensive programming. And the idea behind creating a soccer field there, which is probably our premiere soccer facility in the city, was 'to maximize it's utilization and to really accomplish that, we look at lighting it as well. Para Joe: ...the whole neighborhood or... Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: Well you know, lighting is also something that we consider when we develop our capital improvement plan and.it stretches out for a 5 year period so we haven't formalized that plan yet. It's necessary for us to work with consultants and engineers when we design a lighting plan for a field. I'm not aware if we have any current recommendations on what the lighting concept would be. Hoffman: The concept about lighting athletic fields into the future is that, as the population grows and the demand goes up, instead of having to acquire additional land...you add lighting and you gain that additional space. So until we reach that point you really don't need to go through the exercise of deciding. The progression of lighting started from the first soccer field closest to 101, but it would be some economies made in lighting those two fields because you'd have one set of lights going down the center and lighting both sides, so that would also be looked at at that time... O'Shea: I have a question with that. If they were lit, and it sounds like it's not an immediate concern but what time do they have to be turned off? Hoffman: 10:00 p.m. O'Shea: 10:00 p.m... Stolar: In the fall you get a lot more time than in the summer... I think it's important to 'know...with regards to the land because this, that was the position in Eden Prairie also and it was pretty clear that the homeowners...next to a community park, it was delineated what they should expect in terms of that house of choice. I want to know what the information was that you were supposed to be given. I can't say whether Lundgren gave, or anybody gave it, but if it's in there...I think should drive our decision when we get to that. Franks: Notification before that comes up before the connnission is provided to the residents affected so they would have the opportunity to come in. Hoffman: It's also important to note that that was a condition of approval of the Summerfield Addition that Lundgren do that. If they did not perform those disclosures, that does not prevent the city fi'om putting those lights on those soccer fields. Stolar: I understand. Franks: That doesn't make it any better for you, but it helps at least explain the process and when it does come up, when the time arises when we need to be utilizing those fields in that way, that certainly people's input is requested and appreciated here on this commission. Since I had you make conmaents on the record, if you could just state your name and address so, up at the podium so we get your right name. Pam Joe: Pam Joe, 563 Summerfield Drive. And could I ask what the time frame, when do we have to worry about this? You said it wouldn't be... Hoffman: Lighting? Pam Joe: Yes. Hoffman: It's not been brought up on our 5 year capital improvement program. Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: The lighting is not...Thanks. Thank you for coming. Any comments from commission? O'Shea: Just one question. Since you're here, do you have any type of...or if the city came back and said we...to the neighbors? Did you have a certain height in mind that you would not want to exceed? Audience: No. O'Shea: So you don't care about the visibility...? Audience: No. O'Shea: Okay. So height is not a concern. As long as it's... Pam Joe: The higher the better. Andy Joe: As long as it does the objective which is to help keep the soccer kids keep their balls on that field. Happe: Rod, I had a couple quick comments. I want to thank you for doing all that legwork. Thank you for walking around and getting a sampling. As far as the tennis court question, do you have opposite, I mean was there an equal number of people that were saying don't put tennis courts in? Para Joe: That's everybody I got to...everybody was totally... Like I said, I could probably take another day and get the rest of them. Happe: Okay. Thank you for doing that too. I like the natural screen idea. I'm wondering if a berm extending down through that actual length in front of the pond might be a cost effective option. Maybe it's a combination there. Maybe it's a berm with some brush or some trees or. Hoffman: A berm would probably...the original landscaping that's already there. We can look at that. Happe: Okay. As it pertains to the parking question, do we complete or has there been a parking needs analysis done on a park like this so we know at full build-out in 2025 when this park is being fully utilized, is there a needs analysis as such done to determine how many parking spaces we need to support the park? Hoffman: Prior to it's construction. Parking is, parking is available is designed appropriate to the facilities that are there during peak use hours. Then there's these overlaps and that's where we get into the, and that's a scheduling issue and to schedule the soccer association, it's important... Saturday soccer times and...and when parents bring 2 cars to the field, 4 different grandparents... Kelly: And you know on Greenview, which is the road that almost parallels the path, they do park up and down that road on Saturdays and Sundays for the soccer games. Some parents have discovered the quick access right onto the fields. I know that's aggravated some of the homeowners because people have talked to me in front of their homes. It's not the same car all day but it's rotating in and out and that's becoming more and more of an issue as this is happening more and more. Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Happe: That's all the comments I have. Kelly: ...we are hopefully in the fall we're going to have a link path. Right now there's a path that goes down 101 towards Bandimere and it stops at Chanhassen Hills. In the late summer or fall. Actually it's going to be fall because it's late summer already. They're going to continue that path from where it stops down 101 and it's going to cross over behind and it will actually end at the entrance of Bandimere Park .... There was a neighbor who works in the library and she wasn't aware of it. I told her about the plan. It's just more paths like that, I guess... Hoffman: ...aerial I can point out the location designated for tennis courts just behind this ballfield right here. And one of the concerns with the master planning for Bandimere Park was that tennis courts were not a priority, and since they were not a priority they did not get one of the key locations adjacent to parking. And so it's quite a walk from the parking lot to this location. And so the justification of those tennis courts becomes more difficult because of that situation. Stolar: Todd, would that also be considered a temporary structure because of the pipeline? Hoffman: The tennis courts, we can build a tennis court on top of it. Likewise, our choice would not be to do it. I don't believe that... Franks: Paula? Atkins: No. Franks: Thank you again for coming. Well it appears to me there's no one else in the audience here for visitor presentation. We'll move onto our next agenda item which is approval of the minutes dated June 25, 2002. Are there any commissioners with comments with regards to the minutes? APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Spizale moved, O'Shea seconded to approve the minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated June 25, 2002 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONCEPTUAL PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT (PUD) OF 88.5 ACRES OF PROPERTY FOR 540 UNITS ZONED AGRICULTURAL ESTATE, TONY AND LUIGI BERNARDL TOWN AND COUNTRY HOMES. Hoffman: Thanks Chair Franks, members of the commission. We toured the property this evening just to get an on the site visual of the property that is being proposed for development. I call it the last fiat piece of property in southern Chanhassen. It' s a good piece of property for development. It connects into some properties to the east. Sever Peterson property. There also is a influence by the Bluff Creek corridor in the Bluff Creek area. It's separated by the bluff there in the 2005 area development. This is really the south half of that. South of Bluff Creek. And then we have the north half which is generally...to be the Degler property. First we will talk about that tonight or conceptually how does this particular piece of property fit into the other properties to the east. Not only the Peterson, but then the Jeurissen property there as well. So transportation is a big issue for the commission. Pedestrian transportation. Where these roadways go. How they cross the creek corridor. As we stood out there this evening it got us wondering how we' re going to get people across Audubon Road. The traffic north and south in this location is a very busy street. There was a lot of talk about the recreational needs of these Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 folks. Our comprehensive plan specifies that everyone will have a neighborhood park facility within one-half mile of their front door. Obviously 540 units, we're going to have a need for some park areas. A general...75 people so we start to take a look at that compulation and we start to get an idea of the size of the facility that we' 11 see. Generally a public facility, we do not accept public areas any smaller than 5 acres in neighborhood parks simply because we don't want to maintain...small park locations. So we'll talk about it. Are there going to be association amenities here or is that...public facilities on this property or on adjoining properties. Just start the conversation and then as Town and Country moves through their development process we' 11 get back together with them and talk more specifically about the recommendations that you would have concerning those issues. And we have Krista Hemming and Krista Novack...and we' I1 let them start with their presentation. Krista Flemming: Good evening and thank you Todd for the introduction. Again my name is Krista Flemming and I'm with Town and Country Homes. I'm the Project Manager in the land development department and I have Krista Novack with me. She is the Assistant Project Manager. And Todd has really kind of wrapped it all up in a nutshell. We're here tonight to look at the Bernardi property in particular, but also the entire area because this area as I'm sure you're well aware, is going to be brought into the MUSA line in 2005 and we just happen to be the first parcel, the first group that's coming forward to kind of get everybody's suggestions and get everybody thinking about what's going to happen, not only for this area, this parcel, but for the whole area. This map represents an aerial view of showing the Bernardi parcel here. Audubon, Lyman and this red area through here represents the current alignment shown for the Highway 312/212 corridor. That would come through so you can get an idea approximately to the existing neighborhoods that are in this area, and the existing farms that are in the area, as well as the road system so it gives you a little bit of a, kind of an idea of where that' s going. At this point we have been meeting diligently with the community development staff and some of the engineering staff just to take a look at how the comprehensive plan is involved with this property, as well as the entire area. I mean had a very nice neighborhood meeting with all of these property owners put on by Kate Aanenson, and also the City Engineer was also present and just took at look at the fact that this area's going to develop sometime and what are their feelings on different connections. Different, where we actually have to put some of the sewer and water and things like that to deal with the topography out here and just starting to get thoughts and really get people thinking about it so that when 2005 comes, which is amazingly right around the corner, we're not asking those questions there. We're planning ahead. This project here, this concept plan just focusing on the Bernardi property, is a very general layout that we've put together. It identifies nodes of multi- family, living styles with main connections. Todd had actually pointed out where there's an existing connection that goes into a neighborhood here I believe in Chaska, and logically there's going to, that's going to be one of the locations where it's going to be the main access into this property. I don't know what is planned for any type of signalization or anything on this road. That's something that again the engineering staff and planning staff are working with the county to try to take a look at what needs to happen with these connections. But as you can see, there's going to need to be some type of connection that goes into this property adjacent to us, and then up into these properties. As far as the Park and Rec's concerns within the Bernardi property, what we' ve identified is first of all the overlay district, in these green areas here and we went out on the site and walked it with staff to take a look at those areas and make sure they're supposed to be in the bluff overlay district. And they are, and we're adhering to a lot of the different requirements of the overlay district, but we also found out that there is some high upland in some of these areas that could technically be developed. Or given a density transfer, something along those lines to preserve them as a whole. And so that's why we've designated them in green because we think with the steep slopes and the wooded areas, that those are really going to be some nice areas to preserve. There's a really nice wetland up in this area and just keeping those Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 intact. And then secondly, as far as the park concerns are addressed, we've identified as nodes of green spaces, and at this point we've just generally identified them as in some of these linkages to provide not only a nice access into the community as these connection points, but also visibility to the park area where people in this community may be wanting to use some of these areas and we really just generally identified them, and that's why we're here tonight. Just to get some more input from Park and Rec Board on trails and park areas. And then also to take a look at how, you know what preferences there are for park dedication and that type of thing. We have not specifically identified if we're going to have private or public areas. That's something we'd like to have more discussions on, and we're open to that but we also like to know how that fits with park dedication regulations and I know typically when you have private, and there's still park fees but when you have public, sometimes there's the land in lieu of fees, that type of thing. So those are just things that we need to know to go forward and bring in a more detailed plan. So with that I guess I'll open myself up to questions and just listen to your discussion. Franks: Before we start, if it's okay Todd if you just want to give the quick run down on the parMand dedication or park fee scenario. Hoffman: We split it up into park and trail fees. And so our park fees are based on a per unit and our trail fees are one-third of the cost of the individual park fees. And they're dedicated funds that go for park development and trail development individually. In this area we generally we think about 10 percent of the land could be taken as a dedication for a public park. Park surface. Or again doing the calculations in reverse, which typically comes our very close is 1 acre per 75 people so we take the calculation of the number of residents that are going to be moving into this development. Plot that out with the 75 per acre and...calculation. Many of the folks that are doing this type of development prefer to have an association type of facility. I'm not sure if that's your preference or not for management of their property in the future. In that case the city has allowed those private facilities to be developed, but then we've also required the park and trail dedication fees on top of that for use in other facilities throughout the community. In neighborhood park or community parks and our trail system. And so there could be a combination. It's generally just needs to be an arrangement between yourselves and the city on how you would like to see those developed. If it's a public amenity, we're going to want...see that with the development. If it's a private development, you have much more discretion where you want to put it and...locate that within your property. In general the park and trail fees of this project are right around...so that's the amount of dollars that we're talking when you start to calculate 540 units... Those are the dollars that we're talking. We simply want to make sure that there are amenities available for these folks that are significant enough to handle what is going to be a very large community in here, so that's the conversation that needs to continue. You can sit down with the staff and talk about it as well once we hear the preferences from the commission. The commission members.., everyone's familiar with multi-family developments in this community and other co~rununities they've lived in and we'll hear their opinions and get their thoughts. Krista Flemming: I had one question after listening to your explanation. In addition to the public, or neighborhood and private parks that the city wants to see within the development to meet the 1 per 75 people, that type of thing, are there any benefits to let's say these areas that are nice wooded area that are designated dedicated to the city as opposed to just having an easement for protection over it? Are there any benefits to doing that? Is there any credit that's given for an open space value because there are some areas that are developable, and I guess I'm just trying to see if there's aside from just parks and actual activity spaces, is there a policy that the City of Chanhassen has on open space dedication? 10 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Hoffman: Sure. Those two areas are governed by the Bluff Creek Overlay, and so they're going to be dedicated as part of the Bluff Creek Overlay, and that takes precedence. And if there are areas in there that are developable, and you'd like to take the density transfer out, then you're gaining some use from them so yep, we will, you will not get credit for those as a part of the park dedication credits. Krista Flemming: Okay. Hoffman: If there's areas in there that are developable, let's say you identify 3 acres here but you want to take the density out, then you're still going to be governed by the Bluff Creek Overlay which says this area has been identified by the city as wanting to be preserved, but there may need to be some park dedication...because even though it's identified that you would like to have it preserved, you simply can't take that value away from.., and so you take the transfer, the density transfer and then... Krista Flemming: I think that' s my only question. One other piece of information is that, we have this property, the Bernardi property under contract. This one we're talking about tonight. We have also now entered into a contract with the Jeurissen property over here, and if it' s appropriate tonight, I mean you're going to be looking at the whole area and we're talking about. I guess what I'm looking at is if there's any regional trails or any major parks that have been planned through a park plan or anything like that that needs to go just into this area that we need to try to provide connections to also that's all valid information. Hoffman: The major regional trail is along Bluff Creek. Right through the center of the creek. Krista Flemming: Right through the creek? Hoffman: Right through the center of the creek. That trail will come all the way down through Lyman, through the creek corridor, right through the Jeurissen property and.., as well and down to Pioneer Trail. And so this is a major trail corridor and we want to see trails, sidewalks and trails on these major connection streets and then aligning...so there's a trail map that we provide you that will show those corridors, and then they'll also be shown in the'Bluff Creek Corridor Study. The Bluff Creek Corridor Study goes into great explanation about what the City desires to see as far as amenities in the Bluff Creek corridor. Krista Flemming: Alright. Franks: If I can just have you stay a little more comfortable at the podium in case commissioners direct questions at you...bring it back to the commission for comments and questions. Paula, do you want to start? Atkins: I don't have anything at the moment. Franks: Well you let me know. Amy? O'Shea: Just one thing, you mentioned the other property you're possibly going to build on too. Do you know what type of homes, houses would be there? If it would be this same type of development or single family? Do you have any idea? Krista Flemming: We've just started our review process on that piece of property and we've been discussing some of it with Kate Aanenson and how it relates to the comprehensive guide plan and 11 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 right now it's either going to be a low or medium density residential. We don't know exactly at this point if it will be multiple or single family, but it will fit within the guide lines of the comprehensive plan. O'Shea: How many acres is that? Krista Flemming: The Jeurissen property or the Bernardi? O'Shea: No, the Jeurissen. Krista Flemming: The Jeurissen property is I believe 23 acres. O'Shea: That's all I have for right now. Franks: One of the comments that I might have for you is, you'll probably find that this commission is going to make sure that if you build a private amenity project for the development, that those amenities be of sufficient caliber along with the quality to meet the needs of the residents that would be there. So we'd be considering active recreation amenities that would follow from young age to older age and not, and be a sufficient amount. So we've all had the opportunity to see the kind of classic townhome developments with a very inadequate totlot. I know we don't use that word anymore so I don't know, amenities space or amenity zone.. Krista Flermning: I guess if you could give me an example of what those active an-tenities that you're talking about. Franks: Well we'd be looking at a neighborhood of 540 units, although it's a mixed housing development, it's going to be a neighborhood in and of itself. And if you were to visi_t some of the neighborhood parks in our community here you get a sense for the type of active recreation equipment that goes into the neighborhoods so. Playgrounds. Hoffman: Play fields. Franks: Basketball court. Krista Flemming: I guess what I'm trying to get a distinction between what we are kind of looking at right now, if that' s the extent, or if it' s something that' s a little bit less formal. More you can go out and just have a touch football game or you can have your own little soccer game. You know it's not necessarily an actual, you know it's just an open space. Field of space or, and then also have a jungle gym for kids to play on and swings and that type of thing. Franks: Our typical neighborhood park combines both of those types of facilities together in the neighborhood park so space to play, open green space and then also equipment. Playground equipment. Play field equipment. Krista Flemming: Has the Park and Rec Board, or the City for that matter had a preference on either private or public facilities? One or the other. I know that if we would have private facilities it would be maintained by a homeowners association. That type of thing. And I guess as long as the city's maintaining it, we don't have a definite preference that way. So is there a policy that you guys have followed? 12 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: My personal philosophy, and we'll get different opinions as we work as a body and as a commission, is that the amenity exists for the residents. And it exists in an appropriate fashion. How's that for a nice, vague and general answer... Krista Flemming: Well it basically means we need to either the city or the developer needs to provide something that's adequate for the area and as long as that's the case, there isn't really a preference as long as what's provided is nice. Franks: And I'm not directly aware of the formulas...but even for play gym equipment in the playground there's formulas for like the number of children and the size of the equipment. Krista Flemming: And I'm sure staff Will be reviewing this along the way and giving us even more direction on it too. Hoffman: The location is also very important. The location that you have there are very nice for Gsual things type amenities. For gathering points. They would not be good selections for a gathering point. These associations would like to probably get together for a summer gathering and it would be nice to have a large green space with a shelter to get together for their association summer picnic, and one of those two locations would not be desirable for that so people.., larger green space. It's a significant population that's going to go here and in general if we were looking at a public park we would be looking at probably 5 acres of property out of there. If you do a private amenity you probably can do that on less acres than that so it might be to your benefit as you start to study this, to look at a private amenity...but we still want it to be sufficient to allow for.., open space in what will be a fairly high density neighborhood so people can get out and walk around and... Franks: The other last comment that I would have is, you have the two areas set aside as part of the overlay district. I know some of the larger, the high density public developments have attempted to, at least through the use of view sheds out there. Putting in the units to create more of a contiguous feel for the separated green space areas and so here we have rows and housing kind of breaking out the upper and lower lands that are set aside instead of creating a corridor that connects the two. Krista Flemming: I understand what you're saying. Having a more...tries to blend both of them together. Franks: Right. And what that also gives the sense that this area is much larger than two separated green space areas you actually connect them. Krista Flemming: One of the features with this property, and I understand exactly where you're coming from in trying to keep some type of green space connection through here. These areas, when we walk the site, even though it looks really flat, it really isn't. Hoffman: You can't see one from the other. Krista Flemming: No, and I mean from the aerials and the topography we looked at, it was so different from actually walking out there and you get here and it's just, it just drops off. It's so drastic so these areas are very defined and we'll just have to take a look at how we kind of try to work with our development to see what we can do to even, if nothing else, we can't get something to go all the way across to blend into it somehow. Maybe your neighborhood park areas. We'll need to take a look at that. 13 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Hoffman: Yeah, your last comment about, if there is a neighborhood amenity, having this overlook that north area would be very nice. So then you get the feeling as you start in here in this little carved out area and then look out over the top of these trees so that's a nice concept. These two are so far separated that it may be difficult to make that connection in this... Any information that you have on the property that's in the center... ? Krista Flenm-fing: This one right here? No. At the neighborhood meeting they did attend and they seemed to be quite content living there and although we are attempting to try to talk to all the neighbors as well as many other developers. We have been attempting to talk to them and at this point they haven't been too interested but it would be, we feel, it would be in their best interest to not get developed around. To have something that would be more contiguous but it's ultimately up to them. We are continuing to inform them of what's happening so they know that this development will go around them, although this area will be preserved so it will probably seem larger but for their property values it's kind of comes down to what they value the most. Happe: Appreciate you coming in and getting a jump on this. I think it's going to make us, it's going to trigger us to think about Todd, maybe not only the development that they're working on but as Krista said, tying into some of those other areas too. Some of the-things that we can take a look at are, if there are some ideal locations for maybe a larger community park to go in and tie everything together. I just appreciate your thought process and getting us thinking along those lines. Keeping in mind too that as you earmark those, a couple possible locations, that we'll get, you mentioned that that may be draw for some of those other areas that are yet to be developed and just as long as we remind ourselves that the basic guideline is that, that would have impact on if they're within half a mile of those additional developments or those additional houses that go in so, but I appreciate your time and I appreciate you getting a jump on this with us. Spizale: Just for general information. What are the price ranges of the townhouses and condominiums? Do they have any idea what they're going to cost? Krista Flemming: Well at this point in time, which is 3 years out, we've identified some general housing types as some back to back multiple family. Back to back product of a walkout, lookout. Possibly a smaller, detached single family. Empty nester type product and right now we have quite affordable products actually. We are building those products in Plymouth and Shakopee, Lakeville and the base prices of those products are starting from $150 for some of the different priced ones. $150 to $170 and then going up to whatever people choose for options. Over $200,000 easily...bumped up and improved and we hope to still maintain somewhat of affordability for 3 years from now and that's one of our goals with our company is to keep us within that range, but we also realize that some of the cities like to see some architecture spruced up and really take a look at some more of the amenities and that type of thing which brings the cost up a little bit. So we try to provide, especially in an area this large, provide variety of housing ranges so people can not only start off with one place but they maybe can move up to another area or you get a mixture of income levels and that type of thing within an entire neighborhood. Spizale: Okay, thank you. That's all I've got. Franks: Paula? Atkins: No, that's what I was going to ask. What Jack just did. 14 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: Any other comments or questions from commissioners? Well I also appreciate you coming down at this stage in the game to let us provide you with some of our feedback initially and it's a beautiful piece of property and I think we're all going to be excited to see what you're able to make of it. So we'll probably be seeing you again... Krista Flemming: You probably will. Franks: ...look forward to doing that. Todd, is there anything else from you? Hoffman: No. Franks: Thank you. RECREATION PROGRAMS: 2002 4TM OF JULY CELEBRATION EVALUATION. Hoen: Thank you Chair Franks and the commission. First of all I'd like to thank you all for volunteering. Helping with our events. I hope you all came away with a positive experience. Just going to move down the line and kind of recap the events. Start off with the kiddie parade. We had approximately 400 to 500 kids participate in this event. Each year it keeps growing. It's amazing how many kids we get out for this. Kellie Makela is our playground direct, director of the playground staff and organized...did a great job with that. We got some assistance from the Chan Fire Department and the Carver County Sheriff s Department. Make sure that we had a safe route for all the kids and parents that were involved. The trade fair, the Chanhassen Chamber of Commerce had 39 participants this year. Atkins: Is that down? It seemed smaller this year. Hoen: For the trade fair? Atkins: Yes. Hoen: I believe last year they had 37 or 38 so it was right in line. Atkins: Maybe it was just put together more conveniently. Hoen: Spread out a little bit more...this year so definitely a lot more room. They had 39 participants this year and they did a great job...worked out great having their own tent. Kaptain Kirby train rides once again was very popular. Lines for the Kaptain Kirby train rides once again this year so it's a very popular attraction for the kids. Senior center open house. From what I've heard that went over very well as well. Face painting was once again popular. The city retains 20 percent of the total gross incomes that they receive from that. Next to carnival games. Once again they were a huge hit this year. The playground staff brought some volunteers to help organize and run those games. They did a good job with that. Medicine Show, kind of a fun group. Kind of walks around and gets the crowd involved. The crowd definitely enjoys seeing them. Water wars once again was extremely busy on July 3rd. We may even want to look at possibly getting... 4th of July down at Lake Ann, we weren't quite as busy for some reason. Not sure what that was. Typically they're just as busy on the 4th of July as they are on the 3rd of July... We walk away with 15 percent of the total of their two day sales. Speedway racing. Very popular attraction as well. Lines for that, and for that we also get 15 percent of their total sales. Food and beer gardens. Overall the food vendors had a very successful night and we did actually look at adding some additional food vendors last year. Or next year, as you all saw the lines were 15 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 quite long. Some of the food vendors we do have some extra room for expansion for food vendors for next year so. The more reports I've gotten from the vendors they enjoy our events. Some of them ask that they be invited back for next year...or any other events going on in the city throughout...participate in so it sounds like they were all happy with the event. Krush, which is a local band that warmed up and played before CBO did a great job. This year for the first year they were on the, they got to use the main stage. They just ate that up. They thought that was great so... Atkins: I heard comments from some people, residents of Chan who are my parents age, who like to hang around up there for several hours on that evening and they thought that Krush was way too loud and they could not carry on a conversation. And I love Krush. I mean they're kid's friends and I think they're great but they're really, they really were loud and they played for a long time and some people go up there to have dinner and sit around and they don't stay for Casablanca. I remember when Krush played outside last year maybe and that wasn't very pleasant for them I know. It was hot and they had no shade so it is nice that they can use the main stage but maybe they should play a little earlier and maybe shorten it up a little bit. Stolar: I think one of the other things was, you couldn't sit in the shade unless you were in the tent...If there was another tent, then you could sit next to them and not have the direct sound on you ....it's not just, with our little kids we couldn't go in the tent because it was too loud for them. Atkins: Really loud, and I know the teens enjoy it but it's hard on other people so that's something to consider. Hoen: Appreciate the input. And this year they actually got to use the staging for free, complimentary with Festival Sound Lighting agreed to let the boys use the staging for free so there was no additional cost for that. If we want to look at that again next year, there would be some fees involved with that so we'll take a took at that for next year. Tae Kwon Do demo. Jeff Engel and his staff provided our audience with an entertaining demonstration. It's a great opportunity for the city to promote our Tae Kwon Do program that we have out at the Rec Center. Jeff is the main instructor...for the Tae Kwon Do programs that we have out there. Pony rides, once again very popular. Lines for that as well .... growing we may have to possibly look at getting a second pony ring for that next year so. The basketball free throw shooting contest once again was very popular. We had more than 40 participants in that. We gave away trophies and basketballs to the winners in 5 different age groups. The playground staff ran and organized that. Did a great job with that. Chalk It Up contest was very successful. We had about 50-55 participants in that. It was kind of neat walking around and seeing some of the designs that people came up with. Did a really good job. And two categories for that. Most creative and most difficult. Susan Marek...the judge of that. She does a good job of that. Last but not least on the 3rd of July is the street dance with CBO...great performance. Everybody really enjoys the show that they put on. Move onto the 4th of July. Franks: Have you booked them for next year? Hoen: I have not yet. Hoffman: They want to come back... Hoen: CBO plays at other places and they don't have a tent set up for them. They just really appreciate the safety of a tent so... Moving onto July 4~h. Starting out with the adult fishing 16 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 contest. We had 44 participants this year. Entry fee for that was $10 which includes the participant going away with a door prize. I would definitely recommend holding the fishing contest again next year. It gives the adult population something to participate in. Kids fishing contest. We had a total of 75 kids participate in the festival this year, which is down a little bit from last year. All kids received a grab bag with fishing items. Also gave away trophies and other door prizes to the winners of largest fish, longest fish, smallest fish in two different age categories. Sand sculpture contest was amazing some of these, how creative some of these people are. Sculptures were amazing. The contest was run and judged by Kellie Makela and the rest of the playground staff. They did a good job judging those. It's a fun activity to add to the celebration and I would recommend holding it again next year. Treasure hunt. An adult found the medallion at approximately 11:30 after the second clue was given. I'm not sure how they found it so quickly but, it's an easy event so. Stolar: Has there been an investigation? Hoen: We may have to... Gina Carlson from our office...she does a great job with that so she does a really nice job. Hula hoop and limbo contest. With that we really had a difficult time getting people to participate in it. I think by that time of day people are kind of just hanging out on the beach. They don't want to get up and hula hoop and whatever so we really had a tough time finding people. Going up and down the beach...trying to get people to participate and we just didn't have any success with that so we ended up a lot of times going with just a couple people or have the playground leaders.., so that may be an event we want to look at next year if we want to hold it or not. Fireworks. Once again Melrose Pyrotechnics did our show for us. Did a wonderful job. My recommendation would be that we invite them back again for next year. Are there any questions that the commission has at this time? Franks: Thanks Corey. Let's just open it up for comments. Jack, do you want to start? Spizale: Ah let's see. I think I went to quite a few of these different things that you had and I enjoyed everything that was there. I agree with you. I think I brought it up before that we do need more food vendors. I think we're aware of that. I think that's a good recommendation. I thought the fireworks were fantastic, as always. Very, very good. Just one question. What does this cost us to put on and what do we make? Do we make anything on it or, I know we've got different percentages of different things. Is that totaled yet, or do we know those figures? Hoen: It' s not totaled yet but a lot of our expenses are coming through our sponsorship funds that we get from different sponsors throughout the city so, at this point I don't know exactly what are breaking point is. Spizale: So it's pretty close to a break even. Okay. The only other thing I had was on the t- shirts. It seems to be a hard sell. Maybe we give some more thought to showing them better or doing something. I don't think we're selling very many t-shirts that I could see, and maybe we should give some thought to some ideas of promoting them. I mean it' s a little bit hard to sell them, kind of sitting folded and flat. Maybe next year, I'd volunteer to help you display them. How's that? Other than that I enjoyed it. I thought you guys did a fantastic job. Lot of fun. Hoffman: T-shirt sales have gone a whole different direction with the involvement of the Chamber of this year and so we relinquished some of the control over that and they I believe...did not be as successful as they had hoped so they're going to be a whole lot of discussion between now and next year. 17 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Spizale: That's all I have. Happe: Corey, did you have an overall attendance? Was it up? Was it down? Do we know? Do we track it? Hoen: 3rd of July I'd say definitely up. I would say somewhere between 3,000-4,000 people for the 3rd of July. 4~h of July, probably right around average I guess. Happe: Okay. Just one conm~ent. It was nice, or at least I haven't heard of any negative feedback from loosing the space where the new library is going and locating to the back. I really appreciate the Park and Rec. I saw all the clean-up that went into the efforts, when was that? The night of the 3rd after the concerts. Your team really did an excellent job getting that place back in ship shape again. One of the questions that I was asked multiple times as I was working on the prize board was the proceeds that were being raised from those tickets. I assumed that they were going to help offset some of the costs that the city had to put on the event, but maybe if there was even a little sign that just said proceeds from this are going to X, it would give people a little bit more understanding of what we're doing with that. And then I know that as we take a look at what's happening next year, there's been some concept of maybe you being able to use the tent and facilities when Todd? Later on the 4th for the fireworks. Hoffman: The 4th. After the parade. Happe: After the parade and before the fireworks and I think that would be fun to explore some great ways to keep that...activity happening. And I guess my only caution in that regard is, I wouldn't necessarily be a big fan of that including an expansion of the beer sales, just to keep the focus on the kids and the fun family excitement of that time so, those are my thoughts. Stolar: Just a couple of quick cormnents. Corey, I think you did a great job and I agree with Dave's comments. You have to clean up afterwards. You should be commended for that and your team and whoever else participated in that. I think that's wonderful. It was a great event my first year attending it and it was excellent. I made one con-nnent about a little bit more shade. It was a little difficult with the kids during the early afternoon part, and maybe even shade the other side of the people standing in the lines for all of the free games and just a place to sit out there closer to their kids when they're doing that. More games are fun. This year, we used to do events like this a long time ago and we had a dunking tent, and I tell you, there's nothing better. I did it at college. There was nothing better than getting the college administrators to sit in the dunking tents, former vice president wore his suit and he auctioned off, all this for charity. We auctioned off the first ball to throw while he was in his suit, but something like that might be a fun thing to get city officials involved. Get Todd in there. Get volunteers to go in. Hoffman: We've had them before. The biggest issue is liability. Stolar: Liability, yeah. Hoffman: Yeah, so we've had them. Stolar: Those are fun though. I would sit in it... And then from the food perspective. We did walk around a little bit and we weren't all the way over by the street by Byerly's, but it didn't look like it was as much a dinner type for a kid. I think later on I found there was a hot dog thing there. I was looking at tacos and all that when you start...wider variety but it was a wonderful event. Didn't make it to the 4th because we were all tired out from the 3rd. 18 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Kelly: I thought it was a lot of fun. The only comment I heard from people was about the parade. The parade was really good when...and I think I may have brought this up last time. Has anybody.., maybe having an early parade and then maybe eliminating some of the events. Maybe the fishing contest which is, you can have it not maybe the day. You may get more attendance because then people...4th of July parties in the afternoon... Hoffman: The decision on the time was based on the Delano parade and bringing the Waconia band from the Delano parade. That's the sole decision on why this parade is at 2:30. Kelly: For the band. Hoffman: So if you want to cut out the Waconia marching band, you can do that. Kelly: Does Chaska have a band? Hoffman: No. Kelly: It's just a comment that people have said. By then it's getting hot. Hoffman: It was hot and it's been a problem for that parade in at least one of the past years. The parade is an independent function of the parade committee and so we can talk with them about that and, but they' re the deciding factor in when it takes place. Kelly: That's it. Franks: Thanks. Amy. O' Shea: Again I want to reiterate the, how much everyone that I talked to appreciated the work that went into the parade. I think it' s phenomenal to pull something off like that. To the public there were no glitches. I'm sure...the people that were participating weren't aware of them so, but huge thanks. It's just a phenomenal thing. I think, you know to cut down, if there's any way to cut down on the lines. If you can add more games, a few more rides. Expand the type of things you do. I think they're so well received so looking at that is one of your suggestions already. The only other thing, could you pass on, some of the comments I heard about the parade which could be passed onto the committee. It seemed just so political .... of people running for office that you know, people were sort of joking about it was a political parade. They'd love to see more bands. I don't know how easy that is or easy to do, and a bunch of people, and they don't even ride Harley's, I guess in the past you've had Harley riders. So you can, I don't know, but they loved that because...is the comments I heard about the parade so other than that, everybody who attended the 3rd and the 4th really didn't have any negative feedback. Positive and if there's a way to cut down on lines and expand, but that's, people just love the Bra and 4th so, thanks from everyone. That's all I have. Atkins: It was another good time this year. I had fun working. I had fun selling shirts. When they went down to 5 bucks, I sold a ton of them. Talked to lots of people and it was very successful I thought. And you heard my comments already. I spoke out of turn as to...about the Krush band, but I really think next year doing that band thing that Joe Scott was talking about really should be considered. I think it'd be a lot of fun. Yeah, on the 4th. Right after the parade. And that's all for me. Kelly: Were there name tags out there for people that were volunteering? 19 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Stolar: ...especially like we were doing the raffle, and it said maybe Park and Rec Commission to continue with the tent... Happe: Saw a bunch of people that said they were Jan Lash. Did we donate the space for the booth for the...family for the Miracles for Mitch tent that was up? That was really neat. Hoffman: Amy, responding to your comments. The parade, that committee works very hard. They're a small committee and what their response is going to be is that this thing is it comes to us... so if your neighbors want these things, they have to inspire the people in this community to bring them out in the parade. The parade committee, more bands. They're paying these bands to come to town and so if you think of a community parade, a community parade is a community parade because of all the people that are involved in these things in town and they get them forward and so they have very little control over what the outcome is. They take what they can get because that's what they' re looking for. And the food lines and the game lines. We always try to get more, but again it's difficult. It's a community event and we have very few organizations that want to participate because of scheduling and it's the 4t~ of July and so we end up hiring out these activities. These people want to make money and if they don't think that they're going to have a line and they're going to do business, then they don't want to show up. If they show up and the lines are too short and there's too many people, then they say...next year so it's a very fine line between servicing the people and having these vendors make money. Most of these people are doing it as a for profit, and there are some, Boy Scouts and who else was there? Girl Scouts and the Chamber did the ice cream sale, and so we need to cough up as a community, as a conmfission those people who would help out the festival. Get out there. Talk it up. Tell the, alt the organizations in town that let's be a part of it. We've always advocated for that. The Rotary. The Lions made a mistake long ago when they split the beer and food sales and the Lions took the food and the Rotary took the beer so. The Rotary is very happy with the beer sales and so they do that and the food is, you kmow, it's now changed and evolved and now it's these private vendors andthe Cub Scouts and those people so it's a real difficult coordination. I told Corey that he did a bang up job because this thing, it was the most successful 4th of July that I've ever experienced in the time that I've been here, and there' s a letter of commendation in your packet, but there's 25 others that are not in there and you'll see the next time around. I just think our staff did a wonderful job. The cormnission, you were all there and you're all doing your part to make this a community celebration and that's why the people respond. It truly is the biggest night in Chanhassen and we just need to work together to continue to boost that participation and... Franks: I would agree too. Of all the celebrations that I' ve attended, I thought this was the most successful. I love showing off City Center Park. An event like this, it just felt great. All the planning that went into that park and to use it, the whole community there. Just perfect. A couple of comments for you from my perspective. One, is to look at the hours that the trade fair tent is open and the kiddie parade concludes. So what happens is the parents are all getting done with the kid parade and want to get to the trade fair, and it's closing up. So even shifting one event or the other in some direction I think would be really helpful because there were a lot of frustrated stroller pushers. Hoen: Is the schedule that, isn't there time for those people to get into that? Franks: Right at the end. Hoffman: It's a half hour. 20 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: But I know like most of our stuff was gone already by then and it just, some of the vendors were packing up and I heard a number of comments that hey, you know. We were at the kiddie parade and everything's shut down. Hoffman: Good suggestion. Franks: The other thing was, the economy of scale here. Exactly what you're talking about, about finding that balance between the vendors being satisfied and the customers being satisfied. And I think we need to keep working on that. My personal feeling was that, I heard comments about the food lines being long, but they seemed to move unlike other years so they were long lines but things were moving. Hoffman: We've had it twice... Franks: Yeah, and so from my perspective I thought the food issue was okay. We should look at bringing more people in. I agree about easier access. Child friendly food. Stuff you can get for your kids quickly. If we can work on that. But the thing about the lines that looked problematic to me were the kids games, pony rides, Kaptain Kirby because those poor kids were standing out there in that sun and I saw parents like come on. You know daddy will stand in line for you and like no, not going to have it. We need to for sure, if we're going to have pony rides, you've got to have 2 rings going. I mean we almost have to do these kinds of things for the kids. Like the games, you could double each game I think. The problem is finding the staff I imagine. Hoffman: Finding the people to do it. Franks: That's what I mean. Finding the people to do it. Hoffman: And we also, we can study the economics. Right now we provide them for free. If we do not pay them, an individual needs to pay $4.00 to get your kid on that horse, the lines are going to go down and so that's a study of how do you present these events to the population. Kelly: Kaptain Kirby, I know that line...that line went very quickly. Happe: 4 bucks a pony ride? Hoffman: Well if we brought it back and said you know, what do you want to charge kids to... Franks: ...rides were just great. That was cool. Had a lot of positive comments about that. Another thing. Can kids register for the fishing contest on the 4th? Hoen: Kids, yes. Franks: Okay. Now one thing that we might want to do is that Park and Rec has a table in the trade fair tent, is considering offering registration for kids, for the fishing contest there at the table. And maybe putting a sign up, and then I don't know. Adults were already supposed to have been registered but just really for the kids because then we've got people coming through there seeing that. You know they thought they were...events and whoa, kids fishing contest. Where can I sign up? I agree with Paula about Krush being kind of loud. This is not a teen event. This is a whole family event. I think it's great that they're there playing and if you can sell them on if they come back, turn the volume down a little bit and cutting their sets a little shorter. 21 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 They'll still get the same exposure. Six. The hula hoop contest. That's always been hard to get people to participate. It's a little bit tough. Hoffman: In the olden days there was a crowd at the beach and that crowd did everything. The park activities have grown and it's just, it's a whole different complex of group down there that's just not interested in that. Franks: And I agree about stopping turning on Audubon after the fireworks. Make them go to Powers and Galpin. Hoffman: 25 nfinutes the park was empty. Franks: You know that was just great. And the signs are looking a little tired. They do the job but they've just been out in the weather. I don't know if you can spruce them up or we need new ones. Hoffman: We talked about that. Franks: Oh you did, okay. Great. And the other thing Todd I'm wondering if it can be put together to the park and rec staff as well as the maintenance staff from the commission is our thanks for just a fantastic job well done... Don't give up. There's a vendor out there. Hoffman: We're going to have to take some... Franks: I don't h~ow, we're going to do it. Hoffman: I'I1 say road trips to Kansas. Let's go... Wherever the carni's are, we're going to see them. We actually need to book them for 2004. Franks' I imagine, but you know if we're going to do it, at least getting on a list. My understanding is there's not a lot of availability. They're all pretty well booked up but there's got to be some kind of list you get on so when your turn's up, at least you have a shot. Hoffman: The ones that nobody wants are available. Franks: Great. Anything else? SELF SUPPORTING PROGRAMS: FALL ADULT SOFTBALL. Franks: Alright, let's move onto a nice, quick report on the self supporting programs, fall adult softball. And I can guarantee you Corey that we've all read your very thorough memo. Hoffman: JetTy. Franks: Jerry's memo. Hoen: Chanhassen once again is going to be offering men's softball league at Lake Ann Park. The league will run for 6 weeks on Thursdays starting August 15. The league will play double headers. Each night they'll play a double header. Games will be a 55 minute time limit. The team with the best overall record will receive a fall state tournament berth. Fall league kind of offers a more relaxed atmosphere I guess than the summer. It's a little bit more, not quite as 22 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 competitive I guess as the summer league so and Jerry's already receiving phone calls in teams who are interested in playing this fall. Franks: It's great to see that there's continued interest. Any commission members with comments on the adult fall softball. Questions? E-mail them to Corey, or I mean Jerry. Sorry Jerry. Alright. Thank you. Let's move on to added number 6 under reports will be a discussion of points to go over with the joint commission/council meeting. Todd, can we have the date for that meeting again please. Hoffman: September 30th. Franks: Do we have a time yet? Hoffman: I believe it's 8:00 or 9:00. Franks: I'd just like to open it up and hear from commissioners about some of the things that you'd like to discuss with the council. These meetings have a tendency to go much faster than you anticipate and the ability to get to all of the items that we want for discussion, it just usually doesn't happen. The council will cover some items that they wish to discuss with us as well so I can come up with four but I'd really like to make sure that we have somebody give our top couple of items that we're all going to be able to converse about at the meeting so. One that comes to my mind, again just to open the discussion is the recreation center. Hoffman: We've been titling it the community center...confusion with the existing facility. Happe: Did we complete all of our tasks that were assigned to us for their request for information? We've done everything that they've asked us to do for this item? Hoffman: Right. The responses will all be distributed. Assembled and distributed back to the City Council I believe it's on August 12th or 13th. And then they will take action from there. The people that are responding are very enthusiastic. Talked to a variety of the people on the list already. The medical providers doing health prevention, sports medicine, are about some of the most enthusiastic. Those people would just love to be located with this facility and pay for it's construction and pay... And Lifetime is very interested. They would like to have a tour with the Park Commission and City Council of their recently opened Savage facility and they also have one in Champlin. They're two communities that are pretty similar to us. Franks: I think it'd be helpful for us, at least at that point...pass on our information obviously by then is to talk about direction for the commission on this project. It's probably the biggest project that we'll be looking at. And the second issue that comes to my mind is talking off Glenn or some of your comments at an earlier meeting about funding and priorities and placement versus acquisition and development. Developing a system for replacing equipment and the thought that the designation between park development fees and how those are used and where we place the funding for current amenities we'll call them. Happe: The Lake Ann road being a model of that discussion or? Franks: Well I think that's one of the prime examples, yeah. That'd certainly be an example that we could use to illustrate the point. 23 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Stolar: And question for Lake Ann. Do we want to have them consider that a city issue versus a park issue? Then in addition, how we do maintenance on park facilities. Franks: My feeling is that these are the types of, this type of philosophy or kind of thinking is really, does not really come directly to the consciousness of the council yet because we' ve not necessarily had to face these kinds of decisions and so those of us with some knowledge of the area of parks and recreation, I really think it's important that we provide the service to the council to bring this really to their attention so they can take a look at it. Offer some direction. Those are just my two. I'm sure there's a lot more. Happe: Will we talk through the entire 5 year financial plan that we're putting together at that time or? Hoffman: Separate discussion. That will take going through it item by item. They'll be talking about the general funding philosophies. This is the time for big picture. Brainstorm about, in order to do your job you want to understand where they're at on issues and so it's not unfair to ask a variety of questions just you know thumbs up, thumbs down. And council is going through a financial planning process with Ehlers and Associates and so that will be, they can touch on that during the funding priorities. It will take a year and go through that process. They're talking much more about outcome based budgeting rather than the input. Do you have a comment Rod? Franks: No. I'm going to force the issue here to my fellow commissioners anyway. What are some of the other things that are on your mind? Kelly: Talking about a high school. Is that something that would affect the co~runission? Franks: That's great. And the idea of a cooperative effort in the lines of Bluff Creek Elementary or joining with the school district in the creation of a high school and park amenities. Hoffman: That's a huge deal for us because as a staff we've started to take the position that this city will not build another Bandimere or Lake Ann Park in this community. The next athletic field complex will be with the school and so, I think I have the count right. Eight schools in District 112 in Chaska and two in Chanhassen, and so our citizens are paying a heavy price for not having facilities, green space athletic facilities associated with those schools not being in this city. And so in essence our tax money, our tax dollars are going to Chaska to support green space in their con~nunities which our residents do not have access to. That's something that we should certainly all be very concerned about, Franks: And I'll request, anyone else have any other questions to e-mail Todd or if you have, do you have a current list of... Hoffman: It's going around. Franks: Now I have just a quick question on that. Does that violate any type of electronic open meeting laws to have emails and comments listed in emaits from conm~ission members? That go through the whole commission. Hoffman: I can't pose questions...forward information. You can forward information to me. You can forward information back to me I believe as long as it's approved and discussed at a future meeting. You can't discuss items... 24 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 Franks: It is appropriate then that we have some...e-mail you for distribution to the rest of us. Hoffman: Correct. As long as it's going on a future agenda. Franks: Well I'm looking at for our meeting with the Council on the 30th. And then I believe those can be presented at our August meeting. Let's do it that way then. Great. Alright, let's move on then to commission member committee reports. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. Franks: Tom, I believe you're the only one of the commission members that's on a committee. Anything to report about Dave Huffman? Kelly: September 14th. Start running. It will be a great event. The kids run now is on the... We have great entertainment lined up for the race...face painter and all that. Goody bags...so that's the issue now. Is there a route at the finish line that is safe enough for the kids to run so that's what we're tackling with right now. I'm a big proponent of the kids run but I just want everybody... Happe: Chairman Franks, are there additional committees that we should be attaching members to? Franks: Well I'm not aware. At one point we had the memorial park committee. Is that still in operation? I'm not aware. Hoffman: That's still in operation .... waiting for an appropriate time to bring that back and have a discussion on it. Franks: So at some point in the future there will be a Chanhassen Memorial Park committee that will require representation from the commission. Hoffman: ...committees, they're created as we move along in our evolution and then people go out and volunteer for... COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Franks: Again, the park picnic feedback forms. The picnic shelter feedback forms just where they are every year? Fantastic facility. We need to get better control over the weather. Tell Jerry to work on that. Last comments about the bees so far... Hoffman: We have a new bee remedy which is a granular deterrent that goes in the bottom of the garbage cans which appears to be working. Franks: Any comments regarding the administrative packet? Kelly: I guess I want to comment on the e-mails that have been flying around about the tennis courts at the Roundhouse. It seems to me like everyone is for it except one person that wanted they money spent on renovating the round house. Did you ever respond to people individually or, 25 Park and Rec Commission - July 23, 2002 I mean what...is there money available for a tennis court? Is it even a good thing to do with the money that we do have available? Hoffman: Any person that forwards an e-mail and I let them know that I'm passing that along to the Park and Recreation Commission for your consideration and then you make...budget conversations about the 5 year CIP. It's been out there for 2 double tennis courts. That's been in the master plan so it's just a matter of timing... Most people are not against spending money in their neighborhood park... It's up to you to decide if it' s a wise investment with the resources that you have and if you want to make that recommendation to the City Council as part of the budgeting process so. It was interesting. We talked about it. We said you know, we really haven't heard about the tennis courts. The next day I received one phone call from an individual that was, called specifically on tennis courts. They were aware that they were scheduled to go in as part of the master plan. I shared with her the information...last night at the park board meeting they had talked about this and we had commented that we hadn't heard anything. Well...distributing information and so phone calls, letters, emails, they continue to come every day. I took another phone call today...here we are. We want a tennis court. And by the way what's up with the round house. That' s the tag line on 75 percent of them. Franks: I think it's appropriate that we consider, at least that kind of project as we finalize our 5 year CIP. Hoffman: As far as the round house. Deanna is attempting to schedule another presentation with the City Council. Bunkelman. Neighborhood coordinator for the round house project. She was very excited. The son, the two sons of Ben Lane who is the individual that owned the property back in the late 40's when this structure was installed, they were in town for a class reunion and they stopped by the old property and they were very happy to see that the round house was still standing. They say Deanna's sign on the door and so they contacted her and they live in Florida now. They were small children, 8-10 years old when this thing went up and they remember where it came from so they have this history that they're starting to develop around the round house so she was very excited about that. I believe they've downsized the overall impact of the project to attempt to make it a little bit more affordable and then finally talking to the City Council about it. Franks: Is there a date set for that yet? Hoffman: No. Coming up probably in the next 30-45 days. Franks: Okay, thank you Todd. Any other discussion on the administrative packet? Seeing none, I'll entertain a motion to adjourn. Spizale moved, Kelly seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Colnmission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 26 CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 20, 2002 Chairwoman Blackowiak called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Alison Blackowiak, Rich Slagle, Steve Lillehaug, Uli Sacchet, and Craig Claybaugh MEMBERS ABSENT: Bruce Feik and LuAnn Sidney STAFF PRESENT: Sharmin A1-Jaff, Senior Planner; Jason Angell, Planner; and Justin Miller, Assistant to the City Manager PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS: Janet & Jerry Paulsen 7305 Laredo Drive PUBLIC HEARING: CONSIDER THE REQUEST FOR A BLUFF SETBACK VARIANCE FOR CONSTRUCTION OF A SINGLE FAMILY HOME ON PROPERTY ZONED RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND LOCATED AT 7550 FRONTIER TRAIL~ CHARLES STINSON. Public Present: Name Address Charles Thiss Tom & Nancy Manarin Steve & Nancy Rogers 5025 Normandale Court 7552 Great Plains Boulevard 7520 Frontier Trail Jason Angell presented the staff report on this item. Blackowiak: Okay, thank you. Commissioners, did you have any questions of staff?. Anyone? Sacchet: Yeah Madam Chair, I do have a few questions. As a matter fact I got a call from a resident tonight posing some questions that I'd like to address quickly. This person that called was confused first of all about the address of that property. I don't know whether that has any bearing but the person pointed out that that property is recorded as 7550 Great Plains and not Frontier Trail. I would assume that with the access going to be from Frontier Trail, that is going to be changed and that doesn't really have much bearing on this, does it? Angell: No. The access would be from Frontier Trail. Sacchet: Okay. Then the second point that was pointed out to me is, it looks like this lot is within 1,000 feet from shore. From Lotus Lake, and I just want to clarify whether, if this is within the shoreland zone, or how we call that. Whether that puts any additional restrictions on this or where do we stand with that? If you could clarify please. Planning Commission Meeting - August 20, 2002 A1-Jaff: The ordinances pertaining to shoreland and removal of vegetation actually are applied to the shore impact zone, which is 50 percent of the required setback from the OHW of a lake in this case. So half of the 75 foot setback from Lotus Lake is 37 1/2 and this property falls beyond that distance. Sacchet: Okay. So it doesn't have any additional ramifications for us here. And the third question this resident pointed out, I think I already answered that. There was a question whether the notification that went out about this meeting stated the council meeting or this meeting, and I looked in the packet. It actually does state the meeting for tonight so that was clear, but I want to mention that for the record. Now I have a few questions of my own. First of all, I want to clarify on the plat that comes with the packet, it looks like that's two small lots. Angell: Actually the plat that was sent out is an error in the system. It is actually one combined lot but through staff' s review, that line that bisects the property is actually an indication of an easement that is shown on another sketch that was submitted in your packets. That easement is in the process of going through vacation and will appear at the next council meeting and will require a council approval. That is an addition, or a condition that we have added also tonight, that the approval of the variance shall be contingent upon council's approval of this vacation so that is a buildable area. Sacchet: I'm just a little bit confused. I mean you say it's a two lot subdivision in the report and you still keep talking about two lots. Was it, is the lot above it was originally part of the same lot or what's the two lot component in this picture? I'm not quite sure yet where to go with that. Angell: Yeah. Actually the property just to the north of it was the other portion of the two lot subdivision. Slagle: Can you show us on a map? Angell: Yep. This property. Sacchet: West of it. Angell: West of the lot, I'm sorry. Was also, was part of the original Kolbinger Subdivision. Sacchet: And that western lot has access from the western side? Angell: There's actually an easement that comes out here. A driveway easement and it will have access to the property. Sacchet: Now one thing I'm kind of struggling with in your comments, just a minute ago you mentioned that the reason why the house is pushed in so far is because they need the distance for the driveway. I find that contradictory because as it gets pushed in, it goes, gets pushed up the hill so it actually, as you push the house up, you have further incline to overcome. So it would seem more logical to me if the house comes down, then there is less grade to overcome and therefore it would be less of a problem. Could you explain? Angell: Actually in the footprint that was indicated, you can see that the actual bluff stretches down further on the south property line and is pushed back as you go further to the north on the property. The driveway starts at the base of the bluff, towards the south but then actually follows along the same contour, and thus they're stretching but staying at the base of the bluff really with Planning Commission Meeting - August 20, 2002 the driveway so you're actually not climbing up the hill. It's once you get to that point it's kind of flatten out along the contours. Sacchet: Okay. And one condition says that there is a 40 foot setback from the western line. Can you show us on the drawing where those 40 foot roughly is? Angell: Well this is the westerly line, the westerly property line and the reason why we put in the 40 foot restriction or setback is so that upon approval or if it is approved, that the applicant would not be allowed to encroach any further into the bluff. At it's closest point on this footprint, the closest point I believe being the south point down here. Sacchet: So that is the 40 foot is actually that comer of that drawing? Angell: Yep. 40 feet as it's shown here so that is what we went with and that is one of the conditions. Sacchet: Okay. I believe that's all my questions. Blackowiak: Okay, thank you. Slagle: I just had one. Touching on Uli's comment about just the comments about the taking or the variance is granted or not. I just want to make sure I understand. If we were to deny this request based upon what we see here, and it might be just the way the plot is plotted or the design of the house or who knows what, I mean that, I'm just trying to understand that clearly means then that it's deemed a taking if we don't approve it for whatever reason? A1-Jaff: You can approve it with conditions. Slagle: I understand. But the conditions could be potentially something that is unacceptable to the. AI-Jaff: As long as the conditions are reasonable. Slagle: Okay. I just want to make sure I understood the taking. That's strong. AI-Jaff: If they're not permitted a variance on this site, the lot is considered unbuildable. This is an existing lot of record and it would be deemed a taking. Slagle: Okay. Blackowiak: Do you have another question Uli? Sacchet: I'd just like to add something to this discussion. Just be really clear. If they are not able to build, it's a taking? AI-Jaff: Correct. Sacchet: Okay. Blackowiak: I don't know if I'd even agree with that. If we do not allow them to build. If they're not able to, that's another question. If we allow them and they can't. You know what I'm Planning Commission Meeting - August 20, 2002 saying? If we say yes, you may build and if they decide that they can't, that's another issue. It's not a taking. But if we say no you can't even have a chance, then that's a taking. Am I correct? A1-Jaff: That's correct. They need reasonable use of the property. Blackowiak: Correct. Okay, I just have one quick question. As I look at the bluff and the contours, you were talking about a variance from the bluff setback. Is there any wisdom in granting a second variance, which I don't know if it would make sense or not, to pull the house even closer to the street. From an ecological or an environmental standpoint would that be helpful in any way to get the house back from the hill or is it to the point where there's no difference2 Sharmin, could you put that so north is on the top please. Little bit more. One more time. Thank you. A1-Jaff: The site is encumbered by an existing easement so nothing can encroach into that area. As Jason mentioned earlier, this is a fairly busy street so the distance along the driveway is necessary. Blackowiak: Right, no I understand that but I mean even if we just sort of move this house let's say parallel, just sort of shifted it over say 5 feet or ? feet or whatever the distance would be between, I've got my little ruler out here. The edge of the driveway to 15. Edge of the driveway to the comer of the lift station easement is approximately 15 feet, if I'm measuring correctly. So I'm just curious if it would make any sense just to shift it a little bit. Just from an environmental standpoint is actually what I' m as'king. A1-Jaff: Jason worked closely with our engineering department on this and the alignment of the driveway was going to work with the contours. Blackowiak: Right, I'm not suggesting to change the alignment at all. I'm just saying if you just shifted. It looks, if I'm reading this properly, it looks as if the driveway more or less parallels the contours. So I' m just wondering if we shifted it to the right, kept paralleling the contours and yet made it a little lower in effect, thank you Uli. I don't know if it would help her out. I'm just asking if that was even considered or should we even worry about that? Angell: I would see no problem in it, and engineering is just, their main point was to look at the contours of the land. Blackowiak: Right. Angell: And as long as I believe that the driveway access was to stay at a reasonable length as shown on the sketch here, I believe. Blackowiak: Right, because you don't want to exceed your grade, your 10 percent. I understand that. And I didn't actually figure that, what the grade is. Angell: As long as it can stay below the 10 percent, it should be. Blackowiak: Okay. And don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for another variance but I'm just kind of curious if we looked at it. Slagle: Would that be a variance or just an added condition? Planning Commission Meeting - August 20, 2002 Blackowiak: It would be a variance from the front yard setback. Lillehaug: I have a question. Blackowiak: Sure. Lillehaug: In looking at that we discussed it earlier but that 20 foot wide drainage and utility easements, I just want you to state for the record that it doesn't have a present or future utility need. Angell: No. Engineering department has indicated that there are no utilities buried within that area and there is currently no use of that area really for any drainage or any of that so there is no future plans or existing plans for that easement right now. Lillehaug: And I guess I have one more question and it's regarding the for sale sign I think on that property but I' 11 save that for the applicant. Blackowiak: Okay. At this point would the applicant or the applicant's designee like to make a presentation? Please come to the microphone and state your name and address for the record. Charles Thiss: My name is Charles Thiss and I live at 5025 Normandale Court which is in Edina, and I work for Charles Stinson, the applicant. And I don't have anything to add. I think they've summed up the case well. The only other physical conditions on the site that are there is that obviously there's a bluff restriction and the easement right here, but also there's a power pole, or power lines right there so as far as we tried to position the house in a place where you could get possibly some planting buffer from some of those physical conditions around the site. I'm not sure if anyone's seen this area but it's just a mowed grass area with some power poles so those are, that's what went into placing the house so, and trying to keep as close as we could to the street but keeping a reasonable distance. Blackowiak: Alright, thank you. Commissioners. Could you stay up at the microphone please. I think we have a couple questions. I know Steve, we'll start with you. You have a question. Lillehaug: The for sale sign. It appears that it's on that parcel or on that property. Can you verify that and then I'I1 have a question beyond that too. Charles Thiss: I cannot verify that. As far as I know it is on the property. Lillehaug: Okay. Charles Thiss: I've seen the property but I can't exactly remember where that for sale sign is. Lillehaug: So there was a joint applicant for this, is that the current owner for this parcel? Their name was. Charles Thiss: The Linders? Lillehaug: Yes. Charles Thiss: Yeah, they are the people selling it. And as far as I know they are the ones who live to the west, but I'm not sure. Planning Commission Meeting - August 20, 2002 Lillehaug: Okay, so they're the current owners of the property. Do they plan on developing and then selling? Charles Thiss: The current owners? No, they do not. Charles Stinson would like to buy this property and in an ideal situation he would find a client to build this house. Lillehaug: Okay. I guess what I'm getting at is, you're showing us a footprint for a house here. You give us some profile views of the house. Are these plans, I mean I intend on attaching them to this bluff variance here. Is that legitimate to say that the owner/buyer intends on attaching these plans to this variance also? Charles Thiss: He intends to, as far as I know, build something that is within this size of house and some of the things that he put on here like the driveway and the tuck under garage are all things that will go into this house and as far as the aesthetics, it should stay just about the same. But as far as size, he made it to be a small house but not too small. I think it's, I'm not sure what the square footage is but it's like, you know somewhere between 1,600 and 1,700 square feet on the main level so. Lillehaug: Okay, thank you. Blackowiak: Questions? Claybaugh: So if I understand you correctly, you'd be looking for approval of footprint size? If you don't have a buyer in place at this time I'm assuming that's not something you can... Charles Thiss: Yeah, and I understand there's a minimum requirement for a main level. Claybaugh: With respect to staff, how do we go about or stating that we just are approving the footprint size of what's proposed here? A1-Jaff: You can do that. Claybaugh: Okay. That's all my questions, thanks. Blackowiak: Okay. Uli, questions? Sacchet: Yeah, two quick questions. Could the house be shifted further down the hill? Charles Thiss: The only thing that Charles may object to would be that there wouldn't be, if we moved the house down the hill and that driveway ends up being right on that utility easement right here, or the lift station, then it will just be driveway and then grass and then there's no opportunity to buffer with some trees or something like that. Sacchet: So part of the intent of pushing it up there is to maintain some of that wooded area, and I very much appreciate that. You're trying to preserve some of these nice trees between the house and the street and that matter the lift station. Charles Thiss: Yep. Sacchet: And that, is what part of the reason why you pushed it in that far? Planning Commission Meeting - August 20, 2002 Charles Thiss: Correct. Sacchet: Okay. And then my second question, it kind of follows up on Commissioner Lillehaug's comment. Staff, in their comments, pointed out that this is not a definite footprint. This is not really a definite plan that's in front of us and that kind of raised a flag for me. So you' re saying it's a concept type of thing. How far do you consider it a solid thing? Charles Thiss: Well one of the reasons why you didn't get a definite plan was that this is part of a contingency to buy the lot so the contingency was that the lot is buildable. So we proposed a possibility on the lot so you could see some of our intentions, and that the size is in what kind of scale that we would like to do and it runs similar to some of the houses across the street that Charles worked on, the Frontier development. He's done all those houses in that development so he'd like to keep that neighborhood you know with plenty of trees and wooded area so, that was part of the intention on buying this was. Sacchet: This builder built other houses in that neighborhood? Charles Thiss: Charles Stinson designed the houses across the street and in the Frontier development. Sacchet: That's what I thought, okay. Thank you. Blackowiak: Rich, any questions? No? Thank you very much. This item is open for a public hearing so if anybody would like to comment, please come to the microphone and state your name and address for the record. Jerry Paulsen: I'm Jerry Paulsen, 7305 Laredo Drive. I think we've ascertained that the lot 'definitely does fall within the bounds of the shoreland code because of it's proximity to Lotus Lake. The City admits that. Therefore the entire lot, because it is such, has such a steep slope, it is in essence a bluff in itself. The entire lot is a bluff. So there's no doubt that a variance is required to construct a house here I think. The other thing is that the applicant is purchasing the property under the knowledge that these conditions exist and therefore it's not a hardship in that respect because he knows he' s getting himself into a situation that requires meeting these restrictions. And therefore it' s difficult to build a house 30 feet from the top of the bluff because it's a bluff. Blackowiak: Thank you. Anybody else like to comment? Tom Manarin: I'm Tom Manarin at 7552 Great Plains Boulevard. I'd be to the west of it I guess up the hill. The longer lot. But my question would be, if a variance is granted in this situation, does that open up the possibilities for Bongard's property to have variances being that that's going to get developed too. Blackowiak: Okay. Could we put the map up and could you just, like to kind of point out where you are and then the property you're referring to please? So if you're on Great Plains, which would be just east. Tom Manarin: This is my property here. Blackowiak: Okay. Planning Commission Meeting - August 20, 2002 Tom Manarin: Bongard's is this property which is going to be sold and be developed, and if this is going to be a variance, that would open up this for a variance. I guess I'm questioning why we have a bluff line. Blackowiak: Okay. Shannin, or Jason. I don't know which one of you would like to tackle that. You're deferring, okay. A1-Jaff: I've had several meetings with an individual who's looking at the Bongard property. If they subdivide the property, it's no longer a lot of record and current ordinances would apply to it. We've made it very clear to them that there is reasonable use on this site. There is an existing single family home on it. One of the things that they talk about is potentially demolishing the existing home and further subdividing the site, but even then, as they go through the subdivision process, they would need to abide by today's standards and today's ordinances. Blackowiak: Okay. Just let me clarify, so I can get this. Initially this was divided in 1984, and there was no bluff ordinance then. So because it was pre-ordinance we can't apply the ordinance to this lot. However, anything divided after 1996, after ordinance date in 1996 will be post ordinance and would have to apply all current ordinances. So are there bluffs then on the B ongard property ? Angell: Yes there are. Blackowiak: Do you think there's an ability to subdivide? A1-Jaff: Last week I met with the person who's looking at this site. I asked them to prepare a survey showing the contours on this site and delineating where the top of the bluff is, Blackowiak: Okay, so then they would have to then find the bluff and then be 30 feet away from the bluff. A1-Jaff: That's correct. Blackowiak: Okay, and then at that point if there's a buildable area, they could go ahead and subdivide and have lots, but until that happens I guess we don't even have to worry about that. Tom Manarin: So the Frontier property. Blackowiak: Is already a lot. Tom Manarin: Yep, but that was a lot that was, I'm just trying to get it straight for your benefit too. Blackowiak: Okay, thank you. Tom Manarin: If it's plotted out, or I shouldn't say if it's address is '7550 Great Plains, it sounds to me that now we're trying to subdivide it. Because that lot was always together, you know for years and years it was the same owner. So I'm a little, you know at one point in time you said that the address is '7550 Great Plains. And then another time it's Frontier so what is it plotted out as.'? Planning Commission Meeting - August 20, 2002 Blackowiak: Good question. I thought it was just a typo. I thought it was on, I mean as I drove by today I was seeing it as a Frontier Trail address. A1-Jaff: The site is platted as Lot 2, Block 1 as far as the plat goes. Blackowiak: So it doesn't really matter what the address is, is what you're saying? Okay. So it's just the legal description sort of supercedes whatever the post... Tom Manarin: ...at one point in time maybe it was put back into one and that's why the 7550 address. I don't know. Blackowiak: I don't either. Tom Manarin: Thanks. Blackowiak: Thank you. Okay, anybody else like to speak? Okay seeing no one, I will close the public hearing. Commissioners, any brief comments? Slagle: Alison? Blackowiak: Sure. Slagle: One quick question for staff on the lift station if I may. Blackowiak: Sure, go ahead. Slagle: Currently where does the lift station pump to? I mean where are the pipes? And again I'm just getting the'utility easement, I just want to make sure there's nothing going underneath that property that they might have to get to. Angell: Currently the actual lift station pumps across Frontier Trail, so it's actually pumping to the east off the property. It' s not running along or...across the street. Blackowiak: Okay, thank you. Alright, any comments before we get a motion? Claybaugh: Yeah, a comment for staff. So with respect to what the applicant had set forth, that this wasn't a plan that was set in stone by any means. That it was more conceptual than anything else, what's really in front of us is approving a footprint, is that correct in staff's mind? A1-Jaff: You can approve the footprint. Claybaugh: Okay. Blackowiak: Yeah, and I think the idea of having a footprint size condition would be appropriate. Steve, any comments? Lillehaug: Just a quick comment I guess. Really by looking at this parcel of land, you restricted it to 40 foot on the rear yard property line for that setback, and it really doesn't allow much room to shift this footprint at all so I guess what we're looking at, there's really not much room to shift that footprint so I guess I would probably approve, just this plan in general and approve the variance. Planning Commission Meeting - August 20, 2002 Blackowiak: Okay, thank you. Slagle: Do we know what the footprint is for this? I guess all I'm saying is, do we have a numerical figure that we can say footprint is X and that is what we're voting on? Blackowiak: Well I think that Steve's point was very good because given the setbacks from the west property line, the north and south property line and from the lift station easement, I think they're pretty constrained as to where. I don't think there's a lot of wiggle room in there. Slagle: So it's not so much a footprint that we're voting on, is a placement. Blackowiak: Placement. Slagle: Okay. Blackowiak: Okay. Alright, Uli any comments? Sacchet: Yeah, I do have a few comments. I thought this would be easy but I find different. I do have some concerns about this. One is that we have these 3 variances above it that was for 22 V2 feet encroachment. Now here we're making an encroachment that's double or more that, and the cormnent of the gentleman that lives next door, what does it do to the neighboring properties. It's going to make it more difficult. I mean it's a mushrooming thing. I'm a little confused about the taking to be honest. I ,,',,ant to take time while you' re discussing it, but I remember at one government whatever training I went to, they were talking about a case where a case went before a judge because it was a taking and I think if I remember right, the ruling was if you can go there and put a bench and enjoy the trees, that's a reasonable use. So I'm not quite convinced that reasonable use absolutely means you have to be able to build. Okay, that's my point but that be it for that. I can see the placement of the house that it's shifted up a little bit. I mean they have a little buffer between the road and the house is desirable for the house and for the people around it. I do take real issue with the word eliminate in the recommended motion. I'd certainly, I'm not prepared to eliminate the bluff setback. I mean we're, I' m prepared to give a variance to make something. Certainly not to eliminate it. I'm a little dismayed that this is just a concept plan. I mean basically to give a variance, I like to have a real concise framework. What the variance goes with, and at a minimum if this is going to go through tonight, I think we need to be very clear that this variance is in the context of this concept drawings that are in front of us. There is a lot of merit to these drawings. But there is apparently no assurance to what extent these, this concept is ultimately going to be implemented. So I'm a little torn from that aspect. But that's my comments, thanks. Blackowiak: Thank you. I really don't have anything else to add. To sum it up, it's a lot of record. It's one of those cases I feel that we don't have a lot of room to deny something like this. I'm a little more clear from my perspective that it would be a taking. That's how I read it, and so I guess I don't have a problem with it based on what I see before me this evening. So with that I would like a motion please. Lillehaug: I'll make a motion that the Chanhassen Planning Commission approve a variance to eliminate the 30 foot bluff setback to allow a single family home to be constructed on the property located at 7550 Frontier Trail, based upon the findings presented in the staff report with the following conditions attached 1 through 8. 10 Planning Commission Meeting - August 20, 2002 Blackowiak: Okay, there's been a motion. Is there a second? Slagle: Second. Blackowiak: Moved and seconded. Any discussion? Sacchet: Friendly amendment? Can we replace the word eliminate and say something like the Chanhassen Planning Commission approves a variance to encroach into. To allow construction within the. How would we best say it? To allow construction within the bluff setback. Slagle: How about allowing 30 foot, or excuse me. Allow a, well actually we don't know what it is. Sacchet: Well that's my problem. We don't know what it is. We're giving away the whole thing. Blackowiak: How about if, approves a variance from the 30 foot bluff setback. That way we're not allowing, we're not specifying. Sacchet: And then condition 7 will be want actually quantifies it somewhat. Blackowiak: Right. And then we have condition 8 as handed out this evening. And did somebody want to add a condition 9? Claybaugh: With respect to the approval of the footprint. Square footage size for the pad, hard cover as showing on the attached sketch. A1-Jaff: Attachment number 3. Blackowiak: Attachment #3, thank you. A1-Jaff: Certified survey. Blackowiak: Okay. Lillehaug: Accepted. Sounds good. Blackowiak: Okay, amendments have been accepted. Lillehaug moved, Slagle seconded that the Planning Commission approves a variance from the thirty (30) foot bluff setback to allow a single family home to be constructed on the property located at 7550 Frontier Trail based upon the findings presented in the staff report with the following conditions: 1. A professional engineer will evaluate the soil conditions and slope of the site and design the foundation of the building accordingly. A detailed grading, drainage and tree removal plan will be required to be submitted at the time of building permit application. , 11 Planning Commission Meeting - August 20, 2002 3. Tree preservation fencing must be installed at the grading limits prior to excavation and remain in place throughout the construction of the home. 4. The maximum driveway grade will not exceed 10% at any given point. 5. Top and bottom elevations will be shown on any proposed retaining walls. 6. The maximum yard slope will not exceed 3:1. 7. The property will maintain a forty (40) foot setback from the existing rear (west) property line. 8. Approval of the variance shall be contingent upon the City Council approving the vacation of the utility and drainage easement cun'ently bisecting the site. 9. The structure may not exceed the proposed footprint square footage as shown on Attachment #3. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Rich Slagle noted the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated August 6, 2002 as presented. Blackowiak: It's not listed on here Sharmin, any new or old business we need to kmow about before we adjourn? A1-Jaff: Your next Planning Commission meeting, which is September 3rd, you will have Building C, which is within Villages on the Ponds. It's a 4 story, retail on the first floor with 54 unit apartments above that. There will also be an office bank on that Planning Commission meeting, also within Villages. As well as the Bernardi application will be reappearing before you. Blackowiak: Thank you. A1-Jaff: And if I may add, your City Council/Planning Commission joint work session is on September 30th. Blackowiak: Do we have a time for that yet? Is it going to be maybe an hour at 5:30 or 6:30 or, based on past, that would be a Monday night so. A1-Jaff: I can double check on that and get back. Blackowiak: Thank you very much and I will adjourn the meeting. Chairwoman Blackowiak adjourned the Planning Commission meeting at 7:45 p.m. Submitted by Kate Aanenson Community Development Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 12