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1l Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION JULY 8, 2002 Mayor Jansen called the work session to order at 6:15 p.m. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Boyle, Councilman Ayotte, Councilman Labatt and Councilman Peterson STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Todd Hoffman, Kate Aanenson, Bob Generous, and Justin Miller A. REPORT ON SITES FOR HIGH SCHOOLS IN CHASKA SCHOOL DISTRICT 112. Kate Aanenson reported that the Planning Commission went through a process to look at possible sites for a high school in Chanhassen and how the sites were ranked. Councilman Ayotte asked if they took into consideration the proximity to schools in the Minnetonka 276 District, and if it would change anything looking at 90 acre sites as opposed to 100 acre sites. Mayor Jansen brought to the council's attention a memo in the council packet regarding the time line provided by District 112. After discussion council directed staff to meet with Bev Stofferahn to find out what their guidelines are, and to provide them with the findings from the Planning Commission. Mayor Jansen stated that basically the objective was to let the School Board know that Chanhassen has sites available to locate a high school and that the City is interested in pursuing those options. ' Mayor Jansen informed the council that she received an email from Len Simich from Southwest Metro Transit looking for support from cities to lobby MnDot t° place a stop light at the intersection of 101 and Pioneer Trail. Traffic backing up at that intersection is causing problems with bus routes and he is looking for support to move the stop light installation date forward. Todd Gerhardt stated he would prepare a report for the City Council at their meeting on July 22nd. Kate Aanenson asked for feedback from the council members regarding the Met Council's population projections for Chanhassen. Todd Gerhardt stated he has a meeting scheduled with Carver County's HRA regarding the bowling alley. He also stated he is receiving a lot of interest in the Pauly/Pony/Pryzmus site and therefore directed that surveying and platting work be done to prepare the site for development. Mayor Jansen adjourned the work session meeting at 6:45 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING JULY 8, 2002 Mayor Jansen called the meeting to order at 7:05 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Boyle, Councilman Ayotte, and Councilman Peterson STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Teresa Burgess, Matt Saam, Kelley Janes, Bob Generous, Kate Aanenson, and Justin Miller PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS: Sherry Ayotte Mark Prihal Amber Bullington Steven Lillehaug Deb Lloyd Janet & Jerry Paulsen Chanhassen Chanhassen 6430 White Dove Drive Planning Commission 7302 Laredo Drive 7305 Laredo Drive PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: Resolution #2002-58: Authorize Preparation of Feasibility Study for 2003 Residential Street Improvement Project 03-01. Resolution #2002-59: Approve a Resolution Requesting that MnDot conduct a Speed Study in the Oxbow Bend.NeighbOrhood. d. Resolution #2002-60: Approve Resolution Recognizing the Petition from Concerned Citizens along Highway 101 South of Highway 5 and Requesting MnDot Review the Concerns. Approve Site Plan for a One-Story, 10,434 sq. ft. Day Care Center with an Exterior Play Area; Lot 3, Block 1, Arboretum Business Park 44 Addition; KinderCare Learning Center. go Approval of One Day On-Sale Beer License, Regional Softball Tournament at Lake Ann Park, Chanhassen Lions Club. Approve Request from the Environmental Commission to Purchase Blue Sky Guides for New Residents. j. Approval of Bills. City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 ko Approval of Minutes: - City Council Work Session Minutes dated June 24, 2002 -City Council Minutes dated June 24, 2002 Receive Commission Minutes: - Planning Commission Minutes dated June 18, 2002 - Park and Recreation Commission Minutes dated May 29, 2002 Consider Request to Revoke a Conditional Use Permit Allowing a Walking Easement to Lake Minnewashta, Outlot A, Kellynne Addition; David Peterjohn. m, Approve Amendment to Development Contract for Arboretum Business Park 4th Addition, Project #00-11. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. E. AWARD OF BIDS FOR TH 101 TRAIL IMPROVEMENT PROJECT 97-12-3. Mayor Jansen: I will be brief on item l(e). The reason that I did want to pull that is to acknowledge that this evening our long awaited award of bids for the Trunk Highway 101 trail north improvements is the l(e) item so we have been working on this project, well as a city for 20 years plus, but this council of course has put a great deal of time into it with our residents and we appreciate it. I see a few representatives from the group here this evening, and I just wanted to acknowledge that that important approval is happening this evening so if we could have a motion for that item please. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve Trunk Highway 101 Trail Improvement Project #97- 12-3. Mayor Jansen: And a second please. Councilman Ayotte: Second. Resolution//2002-61: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to award the contract to Rosti Construction in the amount of $798,366.20 for construction of an 8 foot trail adjacent to Trunk Highway 101, Trail Improvement Project 97-12-3. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. H. APPROVAL OF CHARGE STATEMENT FOR PROPERTY MAINTENANCE & RENTAL HOUSING LICENSING. Councilman Peterson: Just really quickly I guess, the last time we met we had given staff some direction that we wanted to spend more time working through some of the salient issues with. regard to-the licensing of rental housing and property maintenance. The charge statement, although I understand the intent, goes a little bit farther than I'm ready to go as it relates to supporting. I still don't know whether I support the whole undertaking yet and I certainly don't support adding a position right now until I get farther into it so I would just, I'm concerned that we're under informed yet for us to make a decision that we're supporting adding taxes and adding a position to the city. City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay, so it sounds like maybe we just need to possibly rework some of the wording in the charge statement. Perhaps we should move this to the end of the agenda, which we typically would do on something regarding more discussion so if that's f'me we will do that. So we will move l(h) under Administrative Presentations, and then we can have that conversation with Mr. Gerhardt. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Debbie Lloyd: Hi, Debbie Lloyd, 7302 Laredo Drive. Jill Shipley and I were fighting back there over who should go first. I just want to make a constructive comment. In public notices which my neighborhood was a part of a public notice that' s going to be listened to tonight, or addressed tonight. I wouldn't have read this and known it applied to my neighborhood, so I'm thinking that Chanhassen wants to be customer friendly. It might be a good idea, a suggestion, to point out specific neighborhoods or streets where items are being addressed. In this notice for example it says that the improvements will take place in Section 1 and 12, Township 116, Range 23 within the city. Well, I as a reader, I mean Craig you're smiling. Would you know what township you lived in or section? Councilman Peterson: I wouldn't know what county that was so. Debbie Lloyd: And it does refer to lift stations too but really I had no idea, as involved as I am, I had no idea what lift station was in my neighborhood. So as just a constructive point I'd like to make. Not a criticism, but it would just be nice to know, because I do read these public notices and I had no clue it was for my neighborhood. Mayor Jansen: Appreciate that. We actually had at one point gone through and addressed trying to make some of our notices more customer friendly so that we all can understand what they are so bringing that to our attention is appreciated. Thanks Deb. Debbie Lloyd: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: And then the notices, Teresa directly are in fact mailed to the neighborhoods that are affected. This is referring to the newspaper publication, correct? Teresa Burgess: Correct. If you are directly impacted we do a direct mail. Legally we are only required to do that on certain types of projects. This one we did it as a courtesy to the neighborhood, and what happened is normally that notice would have come out with a web site address that people could have contacted for additional information, and would have contained the entire text of the feasibility study the council is considering tonight. However, we were in the switchover between our old web site and our new web site, which if you haven't seen it, looks marvelous. And so we didn't know the address and so I apologize to the neighborhood. We tried to get it out there and unfortunately we didn't have an address to give them to reference. That would have answered a lot of those questions because it does, a lot of those people that are interested, like Ms. Lloyd, to go and get more information, but at the same time keeps the notice short for those people that just want to skip through it and see does it look interesting. Do they really care? Mayor Jansen: Okay. And then just maybe as part of, take a look at the newspaper advertisement and I know we probably try to keep those as brief as we can for cost sake but if there' s a way to identify it a little bit. City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Teresa Burgess: And we did the same thing in our newspaper. We put that web site address and then typically we tell people if you have questions and don't have web access, which the majority of our residents do, we also take those by phone call. Mayor Jansen: Okay, great. Thank you. Anyone else under visitor presentations? Jill Shipley: Hi. My name is Jill Shipley. I live at 261 Eastwood Court in Chanhassen. Originally I was going to come to the council and talk to you about a really exciting project that the Advance Marketing Students of Chaska High School conducted with the Friends of the Chanhassen Library, but instead I'm going to change my message tonight and maybe I'll tell you about that another time. But coming off of the 4th of July and the events of last week, we're all reminded of the courage and the fortitude and the strength of the founders of our country who did sign the Declaration of Independence on July 4~h, and we're reminded that we're a democracy that is of the people, by the people and for the people and with that in mind I want to thank the 5 of you who serve as our councilors and mayor of Chanhassen because I think you're doing a really fabulous job and I think you need to be recognized for that. Also in keeping with this, a consistent message of mine has always been that I think a new Chanhassen Library will serve as a wonderful vehicle to unite the community. I've always talked about how our community is divided between Minnetonka High School and Chaska School District. How we're divided physically by Highway 5. How we have so many different religions in our community, and how even politics has polarized us all so with that, at this point I want to once again mention that I am firmly committed to having this new Chanhassen Library, which disrupted everybody's parking tonight I know because of the construction. I'm firmly committed to having that unite the community, and I would like to extend an invitation to everyone in this audience. Everyone who is listening at home on their TV to join the Friends of the Library and help us to make this the best library in the southwest metro area. The Friends will be meeting on Saturday morning at 9:00 in this council chambers and I hope we have a whale of a good turnout of people who love this con-nnunity and want it to be successful and united who show up. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. And we do appreciate all of the support that the Friends of the Library do provide for the city library. They do a tremendous job as far as the different programming and materials that they do provide so thanks to the Friends of the Library. Anyone else under visitor presentations? Okay, seeing no one we'll move onto our public hearings this evening. PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR OFF-SALE 3.2 BEER LICENSE~ KWIK TRIP .g402 2201 WEST 78TM STREET. Todd Gerhardt: Kwik Trip is requesting off-sale of 3.2 beer and staff is recommending approval. Mayor Jansen: Okay, any questions for staff at this time? Okay, seeing none we'll open this for the public hearing. If there's anyone in the audience that would like to speak to this agenda item, please step forward to the podium. If you'll state your name and address for the record please. Adam Hutzenbuhler: I'm Adam Hutzenbuhler with Kwik Trip. Right now I'm still living in Mankato but. Mayor Jansen: You commuted here this evening. Adam Hutzenbuhler: Yes. I spent my day in Shakopee all day so it wasn't that far. I'm just here to answer any questions for Kwik Trip, if any of you have any. City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay, any questions for the applicant? No questions. Thank you for being here this evening. Appreciate it. Adam Hutzenbuhler: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Is there anyone else? Seeing no one, I will close the public hearing and bring this back to council. Any comments or a motion please. Councilman Boyle: I'd make a motion for approval. Councilman Peterson: Second. Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to approve the off-sale 3.2 beer license request from Kwik Trip, Inc. for their new store at 2201 West 78th Street. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. PUBLIC HEARING: APPROVE FEASIBILITY STUDY AND ORDER PROJECT FOR LIFT STATION No. 10 SYSTEM UTILITY IMPROVEMENT PROJECT 01-11. Public Present: Name Address Mark R. Rolfs Greg Lindsley Rachel & David Igel Kari Romportl Shawn Robertson Deb Lloyd Janet & Jerry Paulsen B onestroo 10 Hill Street 6195 Strawberry Lane 7417 Frontier Trail 7500 Frontier Trail 7302 Laredo Drive 7305 Laredo Drive Teresa Burgess: Thank you Madam Mayor, and I do have a handout for the council. This is just a copy of the email that was received today. Madam Mayor and council members. The City of Chanhassen has a lift station number 10 that had raised some concerns when the development, Big Woods on Lotus Lake was done. As part of that development council directed staff to hard wire a generator down to lift station number 10 to alleviate some of the concerns about the power reliability at that lift station. We solved that problem for the short term by taking our portable generator down and hard wiring it in. We do need that generator for other functions within the City, and so rather than just go down and put in a new generator we felt it was more appropriate to study the situation and get a good idea of what needed to be done down there. The City hired Bonestroo, and the council did approve that contract, to study lift station 10 and make recommendations for that lift station. As part of the study they also modeled downstream to see what was going on in the system and looked at problems. In addition, the city took and did a contract with a local firm to televise several of the sanitary sewer lines in the area looking for inflow and infiltration problems which we have received those tapes back and are currently doing improvements to correct those problems. We're doing no dig repairs to several sections of line and to some of the manholes. As they did the study Bonestroo found some problems with lift stations 1 and 2, as well as with lift station number 10. Mainly lift stations 1 and 2 can't pump against the force of lift station 10. When it's running those two stations struggle, and so they put together the priorities list 1 through 4 for us to put into our CIP and address. And we asked them City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 to look at it strictly from the standpoint of strictly engineering. Don't take into account politics. Don't take into account the neighborhood pressures of having development coming in in the near future. Just give us a straight study and the'city would then look at it from that point. And what they came back to us with was, the immediate need for the city is to put in a generator. The permanent generator. Get our portable back into our fleet so we can use it at other stations, and at the wells if we have a power outage. That will include our ability to respond to emergencies and address the immediate need of this lift station. And that is priority number one. Priority number two, what they originally put this together was to do the improvements at lift station number 2, which included putting in a new forcemain, directional drill so we don't disrupt the neighborhood, or at least limit that disruption, and then drop it back into gravity flow so it doesn't have to fight against lift station 10. What happened after they put this study together, is that we had an incident down at lift station 1 which does priority number 3. And that was putting in the forcemain at lift station number 1. We had a valve issue that happened at lift station 1. It's not related directly to this, however we had to dig up a large area of the beachlot down there, and rather than do restoration twice in the area, we felt it was more appropriate to get this project done now because it's in the same spot we have to dig to do priority number 3. And that is to install that 10 inch forcemain to bypass 24. I'm sorry, I have 24 on the brain. 10 past lift station 1, allowing lift station 1 to use the existing system. It will then go into a gravity flow system. All of it stays in the sanitary sewer system. What we're doing is we're taking the pressure off of 1 so it doesn't have to fight anymore. Looking at it, this is from a standpoint of disruption of the neighborhood and cost to the city. It makes sense to move it above number 2, since that's what's staff is recon~rnending this evening. We are in negotiations with that neighborhood and I believe we've reached a settlement. We're just now working with the attorney's office to draft up the final agreements and to get the easements drafted by the surveyor, with the neighborhood at lift station 1 to get a new access point, and so we feel that it's good to get out of that neighborhood since we have everything under control after this project, and to move onto other problem areas. This project does not legally require a public hearing. However, we knew that it was something that several people wanted to have a chance to speak to so that is why it is on your council agenda this evening as a public hearing. It did not receive the 2 weeks notice because it does not require it. The notice that was sent out was a courtesy to the neighborhood, and it was intended strictly to allow people a chance tO speak without having to pull it off of the consent agenda. I'd be happy to answer any questions. I do have Mark Rolfs here tonight from Bonestroo. He is the one that did the majority of the study work and is able to answer most of the questions. And I also have Kelley Janes here tonight. He is our Utility Superintendent. He can answer any questions about how our system functions. And Matt Saam, our Assistant City Engineer is here tonight and he's the one that did the review on the Big Woods on Lotus project as it came through the council process. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Council, any questions for staff at this time? Councihnan Ayotte: I have a couple. First off, I'm very concerned because I followed almost every point you made and so I'm either getting better or you're getting better at explaining things to me. What I'm kind of interested in, because I was interested in this event back in the days when we had the original concern and we had discussed it then. In your view is our PM program, or the lack of a PM program, in need of alterations so that we can, on a go forward basis, avoid some of the concerns we have here? Would PM have done any good do you think? Teresa Burgess: I think that we're on top of it. We've had a televising program for some time. We're now working to get that to be a more channeled program. To be more systematic in how we're doing it, and I think we' ve gotten there. We have had a changeover in our utility superintendent since, in the last 2 years, and that has made a difference how we are doing some City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 things. I think we did them to the best of our ability before and in all honesty we have not had serious problems in our system. I spoke with the MPCA today on the phone and they did not feel that we had any problems that were serious. We have worked with them on every incident we have had in the city in the recent past. I can't speak past about 5 years ago, but recently have worked with them on every incident that has happened and they have approved our responses to those and we have taken any action that they had recommended to avoid future incidences and they felt that we were on the right track with what we're working on here on this lift station as well as 1 and 2. Councilman Ayotte: Do you see any need for any sensing? How are we going to monitor the gen set in terms of kicking on, kicking off? That sort of thing. Teresa Burgess: The generator will be hooked up to our SCADA system, and so it will give a notice that it's on or off. Councilman Ayotte: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Any other questions for staff at this time? Okay. Councihnan Boyle: Where's lift station number 2 located? Teresa Burgess: I don't have my little maps. Station number 2 is right here. And up here, which is just off the north side of Lotus Lake. Lift station number 2 is just off Frontier Trail. Lift station 10. I'm sorry, that's lift station 1. It's hard to read it on the screen. Lift station 10 is up here. Kelley's motioning at me that I'm wrong. So there's lift station 10. You can see this is the existing main. It will probably help if I just look in the one that I'm standing next to. Here's lift station number 10. This is the existing main as it comes down. This is all forcemain. Lift station 1 currently, lift station 10 comes in on an 8 inch forcemain. Lift station 1 then tries to pump into that same main that's now a 6 inch forcemain and it shares that with lift station number 10. What's being proposed is that a parallel line be constructed adjacent to that 6 inch that would be a 10 inch. That 10 inch would carry lift station number 10. It would go parallel to this. Lift station 1 will remain in the existing 6 inch, and up here at Frontier there is a gravity system that we will drop lift station 1 into and it will flow through the gravity system. It does have capacity, and that will flow down to lift station 2 and get picked up in lift station 2. Lift station 2 then tries to pump into that same main. This one has the pictures of the extra main. This is when I get confused. Here's that parallel I0 inch, and then that picks up. You can see that there's a break inbetween. This comes into the existing gravity sewer and goes into the existing gravity. This then carries on through the 8 inch main. The reason for the 10 inch is that it does reduce the friction in the pipe, requiring less head to push. It goes through the 10 inch. And then as we get up into lift station 2 you see that we've disconnected lift station 2 from the forcemain and it will go into a proposed forcemain, 8 inch forcemain. Come down to an existing gravity sewer and then slope from the gravity sewer out into the metro waste system. And that will allow 10 to have this system down to lift station number 10 where it will then pick up. Councilman Boyle: Thank you. Councihnan Labatt: Teresa, as long as you have that map up there. Can you just show where all the ground disruption will be? Where you'll be required to dig. From station 1 up the hill? Teresa Burgess: The ground disruption at lift station 1 will be right in the beachlot. It's in the area that is already dug up. The neighborhood probably knows where that is. It's the area that City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 we dug up for the valve repair. So it's all contained relatively close to the lift station. The pit has to be at each end of the directional drill. Assuming that everything goes fine, we drill from there up to here by this existing catch basin, and we'll have to dig up the street in that area. But this is not an open trench. The reason for directional drill in this neighborhood is because of the density of the neighborhood. The established trees. We have homes that are close to it. We don't want to dig a trench through this neighborhood. By doing directional drill we save on restoration and we save on disruption to the neighborhood. So we'll have two pits on either end. Councilman Labatt: So then leading down to lift station 2, at 2 there'll be no disruption? Teresa Burgess: At 2 we will, at this point there won't be any. Yeah, there won't be anything at lift station 2 now. There will be when we get to lift station 2 which we will schedule on the CIP this fall to, for council to approve this fall and then that would be coming up in the next 1 to 3 years. And there will be 2 fits. One on either end. One here. One here. Can we make the curve Mark? Make it to here. And keep in mind, we have not done the plans and specifications yet. This is a conceptual plan.' Council needs to authorize preparation of plans and specs before we can prepare those plans. I know there's some frustration in the neighborhood, why can't you tell me where exactly does the pipe go? Does it go on the left side of my lot or on the north or the south side of my lot? We can't tell anybody that yet because we haven't done plans. The council needs to authorize that before we spend the money. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other questions for staff at this time? Okay, seeing none. I'll open this for the public hearing. If there's anyone here that would like to address the council on this issue, if you'll approach the podium and state your name and address for the record please. Debbie Lloyd: Debbie Lloyd, 7302 Laredo Drive. I live in the neighborhood affected by the, I guess I live in lift station 1. Near lift station 1 in Sunrise Hills and there's an easement in the back of my property that would be where the new 10 inch pipe would be laid. And I just have a couple comments, and that is, I know that this was a courtesy to advise us that this was going to happen, but not everyone along that easement was notified. For example Joel Jenkins who lives at the southern most lot on Frontier Trail did not receive notification because he does not live within 500 feet of the lift station. And that's one of those courtesy issues that I wish could be cleared up because his property actually will be dug up almost more, or more affected than anyone else. He has a lot of mature trees along that easement. The second point I'd like to bring up is that there, in the letter that we received, the public hearing notice, there's a second that says please note. No assessments are proposed for this project, so I think for a lot of people receiving this, no alarm would ever go off. But in the public notice that was in the paper, it says no assessments are proposed at this time. I want to know which it is. If the 10 inch pipe laid in my neighborhood for the benefit of another neighborhood is going to end up being an assessment for me and my neighbors, direct neighbors, or if there's an assessment in the future, if that would be for the new development. So I'd just like that clarified. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Teresa, if you could go ahead 'and address that question. Teresa Burgess: Okay, I was ta~ng notes. Were those the only two questions? Debbie Lloyd: No, I think I have some more but I'm not really sure. Teresa Burgess: Okay, I'll answer these two while you think about it. I did speak with Mr. Jenkins and the reason he was not notified is correct, he was not within 500 feet of the lift station. However, our process once we have approval to prepare plans and specifications would be to start City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 that preparation and then once we have something to share with those people, to call them and to meet with them that are directly adjacent to the project so Ms. Lloyd will be contacted again when we actually have plans to say okay now this is where it goes on your property, and actually lay out a plan for her to see where exactly it's going to go and to describe what's the impact to your yard. We'll do the same thing with the rest of the property owners along that area. We will actually sit down with them. We usually do it in an open house setting. We send out notices and say if you want to see it, come in. If you're not interested, you don't have to, and people then are encourage to come in and ask questions. We ask them to take a look at the plans. Is there anything that we should be aware of that we missed? Have you installed a sprinkler system or something that we should know about? And at the same time we do that early enough so that we can make changes to the plans if they do bring something to us that we would need to know to make appropriate decisions and recommendations to the council. And so this notice was intended just to let people know that we're going to do a project and just we're on the conceptual stage. Once we have plans, we will start to talk with people that are directly adjacent, not that 500 feet broad band. We' 11 be talking with the people, the property owners on either side of that pipeline. As far as assessments, the notice that was mailed out was directed specifically to these property owners. At this time, according to the project that we are recommending construction for, there are no assessments. However, when I put the notice in the paper I did not want to bind the hands of future councils to say that well we already said there's no assessments and now we come back in 5 years, based on our CIP projects that we're going to place in from the study, and well we said there were no assessments. Now we can't assess, and legally that does not bind us but I don't want to put a future council in that position of, we've basically said that and now we have to live by it. And so this project that we are discussing tonight, there are no assessments. But I did leave the wording a little bit wishy washy with the intention of leaving the council the final decision for future. Mayor Jansen: So specifically there are no assessments on your recommendation which is the priorities 1 and 3, and you've left yourself open for the potential on 2 and 4? Teresa Burgess: Correct. If we wanted to do assessments on 1 and 3, if the council directs that this evening, we have to go back and hold a public hearing with official legal notice. This public hearing does not meet the notice requirements for assessments. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Does that answer your question Debbie? Debbie Lloyd: Yes. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any others? Debbie Lloyd: Well I'm still somewhat confused about the study recommending that 1 and 3 be implemented before 2. Teresa Burgess: The study does not recommend that. The study recommends they be done 1, 2, 3, 4. Staff did not have Bonestroo revise the study after...as a staff and we did not have Bonestroo revise the study. The recommendation is coming from staff to do priority number 3 before priority number 2. It is not coming from Bonestroo. Debbie Lloyd: But if...had that information they would change their outcome? Teresa Burgess: If we were to request Bonestroo to revise the study, I'm sure they would do so. We have discussed the recommendation from staff. They did receive a copy of our staff report. City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 I' ve spoken with Bonestroo several times before the staff report went out and they have not expressed any concern with us doing that, as long as priority number 2 is done within a reasonable time period. Debbie Lloyd: And what is the reasonable time period? Teresa Burgess: Mark, did you have something specific? Mark Rolfs: Well, a little bit depends on the...so I would say in a few years. Within a few years. Teresa Burgess: My intention as I do the CIP is to try and schedule it within the next 1 to 3, and that seems to fit with what Mark is saying. Mark is the one who did the study. Debbie Lloyd: Okay, thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Sure. Is there anyone else with questions? Rachel Igel: Hi. Rachel Igel, 6195 Strawberry Lane in Shorewood. Madam Mayor and Council members. The reason that I'm coming to you today is I hope that you' ve all received a letter that my husband and I have sent you from Igel Properties regarding our subdivision on Big Woods on Lotus Lake. The reason that we're here is because we're very concerned about lift station 10, and we're concerned from 3 perspectives. One being that we're the developer of the subdivision. There's 9 lots. Two, that we're actually an owner of one of the lots that's very close to the lift station 10. And three, that we feel we represent those people that have bought lots from us. And so why we're here today is that we have invested a great deal of time and money obviously into the development on Big Woods at Lotus Lake, and in doing so we felt that we had gone through a number of steps with city engineering in order to get to the point where we actually purchased the property. And so as we come here today what we're asking for is that the city actually implement options, or priorities 1 and 4 as they were presented to us back when we decided to purchase the property, and basically what we're saying is that lift station 10, everyone involved in the situation has acknowledged it's one of the most important lift stations throughout the system. The capacity of that station is being maximized. There is an enormous amount of noxious odor that comes out of lift station 10. We also have aesthetic issues with lift station 10. When we went to look at purchasing the property, we had a number of meetings with Teresa Burgess of the engineering department, and as part of that was an acknowledgement that lift station 10 was of concern and that they wanted to do some upgrades. And at that time they had told us, she had told us as well as Matt Saam within engineering, that they'd be willing to consider looking at implementing improvements which would include improving the capacity. There was flooding issues. There was generator concerns. It was apparent that the well had to be increased, and the fact that there was a development going in, that there was aesthetic and odor concerns that were happening. During that period it was also apparent that there was no easement owned by, legal easement owned by the city to actually have a lift station there. In addition to that, we had worked through with Teresa Burgess the idea that there was a number of goals that the city was trying to achieve with our development. One being to get a formal easement, or legal easement. Two, to expand that easement to be able to actually implement a lift station that was going to be able to handle the capacity. Three, there was concerns over the creek that comes through our property and wanting to have conservation easements to protect any sort of impacts that could happen on the creek. And again to also give easements on the back of some of our lots to protect trees and the creek again. We agreed that we would go ahead and provide the city all of these easements without any charge to the city. However in return what she said that the city would do is go out, have a feasibility study done that would not only consider the capacity needs and how we go about 10 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 implementing those, but look at the odor issue and look at the aesthetics issue. As we went through numerous meetings what was becoming apparent is that that in fact wasn't going to happen. We had gone ahead and given all these easements prior to platting. It wasn't a forced hand issue because we had the plat. We said okay, we're working with the city. We were asked to work with the city. We've now given you everything that you need and in return what we're asking for is to consider these issues which are of great concern to us. In looking at these issues, we started out with Teresa saying why don't you take a look at the lift station on Lake Lucy Road. We've got scrubbers in that system. We could look at doing something similar to that. It was over, at that time we understood over a million dollars worth of improvements to get the odor control. We went ahead and looked at that. During that time they said that they would go ahead and implement a feasibility study. The study took a number of months to go through and during that time we went through the platting process. Now we have handed over all of these easements and as of a meeting that we had in April with Teresa, we were told that not only was the city not going to consider doing odor control, but if the city was going to do it, we would have to pay 50 percent of it. Now, we were very frustrated by this because during the entire time that we have looked at going through this issue with Teresa and with the city, we were told that this was going to be an issue the city would take on, and now all of a sudden it was an issue that we were going to have to present 50 percent of. We had already sold all of our lots. We no longer had the option of being able to assess those neighbors that would be a part and would have the benefit of odor control. Have the benefit of aesthetics. In addition to that, we were looking at now instead of looking at a very expensive system, looking at a very minimal system. We're willing and interested in seeing a minimal system put in. In fact we have spoken with the PCA. We understand that a charcoal filtration system can be very effective. We understand that it doesn't necessarily need to be as expensive as it's being proposed here. In addition to that, we originally were told that they would actually put a building around the lift station. Later we were told after the feasibility study that that wouldn't be, that wouldn't satisfy OSHA requirements because of a potential for, oh I forgot the terminology but if you were to go inside and you could be overcome by fumes. So we talked about the idea of having an open roof put on it. Finally by the time April came around of this year, what we were looking at was just a wooded fence that would have you know maybe some sort of wrought iron implemented into it. We're okay with even that, but we need to see something done. We feel that the city has not satisfied their end of the bargain, and we feel very strongly that we have given up all of these rights to our property. We have not been compensated in any way, shape or form for it, and we feel very strongly that if the city doesn't come through, that we should evaluate pulling back the easements because we're not getting what we asked for from them. In addition to that, we're looking into the idea of nuisance law and the idea that these odors are causing a nuisance. Councilman Ayotte: Say that again, I didn't hear you. Rachel Igel: Looking at Minnesota's Nuisance Law, and the fact that these odors are a nuisance to us. They're noxious fumes. They're very strong. And they're something that us within the development are going to have to live with day in and day 'out for the rest of our time on the property and we feel that what we're asking for, it's not a huge expense on the city and in return what it will do for us in our neighborhood is very important. So again what we're asking for is that, at this time you implement the odor control and the fencing. Finally the whole subdivision right now is ripped up with the road being put in that was required by the city, and when we originally looked at doing this, Teresa suggested that this would be done in tangent with our development, and now it's being proposed that that would not happen. And again, if the city comes in at a later date, they're going to rip up our neighborhood again to go in and implement all of the requirements necessary for the lift station, and so we feel that right now is an opportunity. The city will save money because it's all ripped up and they could take advantage of the fact that 11 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 our development is there. And at the same time give us what we ask for and in return the city has received great value from us in all the easements that we've issued. Thank you very much. Any questions? Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Appreciate it. Rachel Igel: Yep. Mayor Jansen: Teresa. A few questions. I'm sure you kept track of them. However you'd like to address. Teresa Burgess: I don't like to argue in public but apparently we're going to on this one. The only commitment that the city made on this project, and I want to make it very clear, the only commitment was that we would study it. When we met with Ms. Igel down at the lift station, we as the city felt that it did not have a significant odor problem. We've never received complaints, and she does have a good point in that Mr. Swanson did not live directly adjacent to the lift station. However, the lift station was there when she purchased the property. She and her husband. The lift station was there when they did their subdivision, and I remember quite clearly sitting in this council meeting when they did their subdivision and pointing out, you know there's a lift station on that site. And it was pointed out at every stage. The only commitment that I ever made was that as long as we're studying the wet well capacity, we will look at the feasibility of odor control and the feasibility of a building over it. Now it's feasible technically, but it's incredibly expensive. To fit a building over this lift station we would require purchasing the additional lot that is directly adjacent to the lift station because we can't take lift station 10 out of service while we work on this. I don't know how much the lots are going for but I do know that that's a significant impact. And that does not include anything for a building. That's just land acquisition. Now the easements that were acquired were done under the platting process. They were done under perfectly legal platting process. We would have requested them if the Igel's had not been willing to give them. They would have been a condition of the plat. However they were willing participants and chose to dedicate them without us requiring them. The study does address odor control. It specifically talks about the option of odor control. The scrubbers that are down on lift station 24. The type of odor control we have on lift station 24. First of all if you've been down there, you know how well they work. In that case not very well. That is one of the reasons that I did tell then*t they should go check it out. That's an incredibly expensive facility and it does very little to control odor so I wanted them to understand. You can put a lot of money into this and not get anything. The other thing with that is a lot of that is no longer done. The only thing that is really available to us for odor control now is carbon filters and that is why that's the only thing that's proposed under this study. Finally I'd like to point out to the council that we have 29 lift stations in the city of Chanhassen. We are in the process of constructing number 30. We have a couple more that will be coming on in future developments, and so with 30 lift stations, and you have neighborhoods that are sitting here tonight that don't have odor control on their lift stations. If we just say yep, we're going to put odor control on this thing because you said it smells. Odor is something that is so hard to quantify. If we just say the city's going to do it, no problem. We'll just take care of that. We need to be able to justify why this lift station and not the other 29 in town. Especially when we're talking about an existing lift station that they built the house next to. Not a house that we built the lift station next to. Now, the reason that I was willing to recommend to council that we pay for 50 percent of the odor control is because we are proposing to expand this lift station. We're not building it but we're expanding it. Those property owners will receive direct benefit from that odor control, and I spoke with MPCA today specifically about odor control and I asked them for, as long as they had contacted me to talk about a complaint they had received, I felt it was a good opportunity to kind of pick their brains 12 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 too and see if our view on this odor control was wrong, and I specifically said to them, my view on odor control on a lift station is that it's an aesthetic issue. Their opinion. Councilman Ayotte: Say that last part again Teresa. Teresa Burgess: It's an aesthetic issue. And therefore since it's not a health issue, it's an aesthetic issue, it is appropriate for me to ask people to pay for part of the cost. And as such, in asking them to pay for it, if they feel that an assessment is not appropriate for odor control, then it doesn't smell that bad. And his statement back to me was, you're probably right. If it's not worth putting some of the money towards, it's not smelling that bad. Now in this case it seemed appropriate. We were trying to work with the property owners. I'm sorry, I can hear somebody whispering. I didn't want to interrupt. We were trying to work with the property owners. The reason for doing this project and proposing to do it all at once was fh'st of all we were not aware of the problems at lift stations 1 and 2 at the time that we did this study. The study pointed it out to us. That did change our priorities. The Igel's have received several copies of the draft so as come to the city we have shared them. We have contacted them repeatedly. We have email back and forth. We did sit down with them and discuss specifically odor control and what it can do. What it can't do. And up until we had the valve break at lift station 2, our intention was to do, I'm sorry lift station 1. Our intention was to do the improvements to lift station 10 with screening and doing the generator and working with them on, is odor control something we want to pursue. Should we talk about it as an assessment project to all of the properties? And then we had the valve break at lift station number 1. That changed our priorities and we did contact them when our priorities changed and we told them what was going on. It' s unfortunate, but it' s a fact of the matter that the utility budget does not have the money to do all 4 priorities this year. We have to pick and choose and staff has decided that our recommendation to council is priority 1 and 3 as the most appropriate for the year 2002. And it's unfortunate we don't have an unlimited budget, but we do. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And just so I'm clear, the aesthetic issue dealing with the fence, and I heard Ms. Igel say that they're fine with the fence. Under option number 1 it's an estimated cost, correct? Is this the station we're talking about? Teresa Burgess: Lift station 10, option number 1. Mayor Jansen: Okay. With fence and without fence. Teresa Burgess: We would be required by our planning, our zoning requirements to screen the permanent generator and so the fence that's included is to screen the permanent generator. The boxes that are down there, the control boxes are painted green to fade into the greenery. Unfortunately they do stick out in the snow, but they have been there for quite some time. By zoning code and by our planning codes we're required to fence, and we do try to meet our own codes and that is why fencing is included. It was put in here as with and without just to point out that there is some cost involved in that. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So it will be screened 'with the fence so that's already been addressed. Teresa Burgess: Only the generator will be screened. The intention was to screen the generator. Now we could certainly, if the council' s directs, add on screening for the control boxes. That is not something we generally do, and so we would need to have direction if that's what you would like to see us do. 13 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay. In comparison to screening the generator I don't have a clue as to the size comparison. Teresa Burgess: The generator, we would be screening just like you woul'd see around the large sized air conditioning units. We would be putting in some form of fencing with some architectural interest. We would work with our planning department to make sure it meets all of their requirements. They have concerns about the viewscape from the lake as well as from the neighborhood. They' re much more concerned actually about the viewscape from the lake with that being probably the area that will get the most traffic and visibility of this area. Mayor Jansen: But if we added screening of the control boxes, what would we be adding potentially? Half again? Is it the same cost as screening the generator as far as the size and amount? Teresa Burgess: Part of the problem is we need to have access to those, and so we would have to look at what's involved in getting that screened. We couldn't answer that tonight. We'd have to relook at it. Most of the screening issues are probably, if we were to screen the box probably what we're going to do is plant some trees, which are already around it. There's several trees around it. We cannot screen the actual wet well itself, except to put fence around it. We can do a lot of things with a fence but the house that's proposed next door to this lot, or to this parcel is a two story home. There's not going to be much we can do. You're talking about some pretty high fence to be able to screen from that. And I have talked with that person. He's called me periodically for updates and I know that he's called the Igel's also several times for updates. Where are we in the process? What's going on? And he actually lives on Highway 101 and so I've had a lot of contact with him on Highway 101 as well. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Otherwise the only other aesthetic part of the project that moved into 4 that we wouldn't be doing right away is recommended to change the light pole, and I take that as a minor compared to if we in fact can screen the rest of the project. Teresa Burgess: And we can certainly take that minor piece and move it up. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Teresa Burgess: You do it as part of the major project and make it look nice. Mayor Jansen: Okay, if it isn't a big deal. And then I noted within your notes that any of the odor issues can in fact be addressed if it does become a situation as far as being able to add the odor control after the project is completed, if there does seem to be a great deal of issue around that. Teresa Burgess: Right. That is something that we would offer to any neighb'orhood that surrounds a lift station. If they feel that it's appropriate to do odor control, we would go through the process of a petitioned project, just like we do any other public improvement project, and my recommendation to council would be that it at least a portion assessed and we would evaluate each lift station as it would come to us. In fact I had a discussion with the property owner near lift station number 1 asking why is lift station 10 being proposed for odor control and we're not? Well. because they asked for it. If you want it, hey. Come in and ask for it and I'll be happy to work~ with you and we'll do a cost estimate and we'll tell you what it's going to cost and decide. And then you can tell me if this lift station still smells, or if it's not that bad. And with this many lift stations, it's the only way I can see doing it and being fair to everyone in the city. Certainly 14 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 we can talk about them as they come in about what's appropriate for city share, and if we get a lot of these we may have to talk about that. But at this point in time, if we've never had somebody ask for it, and talking with the consultants that do this type of work, we couldn't find any place that did it consistently. Put in odor control. You do it here and there where you have to but nobody that does it across the board. Mayor Jansen: So of the 29 current lift stations, we don't get a lot of nuisance complaints around the odor, or have we gotten any? Teresa Burgess: We get an occasional once in a while. Not anywhere near where we get for instance smelly ponds. We get an occasional complaint about a lift station. We try to take care of them in a timely manner, as quickly as possible and do what we can with them. Some of them there's not anything we can do. But we don't get a lot of complaints about our lift stations. Mayor Jansen: Alright, thank you. Is there anyone else who would like to address the council on this issue? Greg Lindsley: Sure I would. Greg Lindsley. Mayor and council. I'm the gentleman Teresa was talking about. I live on 101 plus I also own, now own the Lot 8 of Big Woods, which is. one of the easements for the lift station. My intent here is to really obviously would be to support the Igel' s since I bought this property with the intent of some improvements being made, and I can understand what.., and some of those things. And as we talked in some of these meetings we were at, there's no guarantees on odors. Charcoal can help. I got the impression maybe the larger wet well might help with some additional cleaning. So as I sit here and take notes on what's going on, I would like to make a few points. We bought this property based on many things. A lot of positives. It's on Lotus Lake. Very nice. It's wooded. But one of them was some improvements by the city to this lift station, and until tonight I wasn't sure exactly what was going on. We had some conversation and I wasn't a part of this letter but, I'd like to at least recommend that you seriously consider the control boxes be fenced in, or screened or whatever the term is that we're using tonight. And the other question I'd have is, if it's put off for future, when might that be? Would the larger question might be... 10 foot wet well, would that maybe possibly help odors? You know we've already discussed that charcoal might help the odors. When might that happen? Next year? 10 years? Or is that just something that can't be answered? I'm not sure how the city works... Mayor Jansen: The comment from staff was, as part of our CIP projects Teresa would be looking at the next 1 to 3 years, correct? Teresa Burgess: We'd be looking for the next 1 to 3 on lift station 2. We probably would look at how quickly this neighborhood develops and work with the neighborhood, but I would see it being at least 3 years out, just for budgetary purposes. We try to do projects as soon as possible but we have to look at our budget and see when do we have money. We'd like to get it done before we have the big bill for the water treatment. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So take that as an estimate and not a promise. Greg Lindsley: Right. So...but in the meantime we also have the issue of screening and you're considering screening the boxes. Mayor Jansen: That will be part of our conversation tonight, yes. 15 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Greg Lindsley: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Anyone else? Kari Romportl: I'm Kari Romportl and I live at 7417 Frontier Trail and I developed the property on Big Woods on Lotus Lake with Dave and Rachel and we originally did it with the intent we were going to be living there and we did live there before that and have had the opportunity to smell lift station 10 numerous times and our house was quite a bit a ways from the lake and I know the people that bought our lot are going to be quite a bit closer. But also my big concern is all 3 of these lift stations have very close access to Lotus Lake, and I'm sure there' s quite a few homeowners on Lotus Lake that get kind of concerned when sewage can overflow into a lake and that'd be my recommendation is, I live, currently live very close to lift station number 2. My next door neighbor is here and she lives right next door to lift station 2 and wasn't aware that she could complain about the smell. So that's my recommendation is to, that we can do whatever we can, especially to protect the lake from, I know there was discussions throughout this whole development about expanding the wet well at number 10. That there was issues when the power would go that it would ovmTlow into Lotus Lake so that would be my recommendation is we can do whatever we can to protect this nice city and the take that is in it, so thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. That is why we have been having these conversations and had attached the temporary generator. Teresa Burgess: And just for council's information. We have not overflowed lift station number 10 since I've been here, and I've been here for 2 years. I asked Kelley this morning what his recollections were and we couldn't really nail down a timeframe but we have not overflowed 10 recently. We have had some issues with 2 and we have had some issues in 1. The most recent overflow in 1 was when we had the valve break, and that was directly related to the valve, not to flow size. Lift station 2, we've had some issues with inflow which is why we're doing those inflow infiltration improvements to the existing sanitary sewer, and also why we are stepping up our sump pump inspection. A lot of that is coming from people's sump pumps, and we know it and we' re out there looking for it. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So the issue is known and you're working on it. Okay, great. Anyone else who would like to address the council on this issue? David Igel: My name's David Igel. I live at 6195 Strawberry Lane. Madam Mayor, council members. I'd like to take just a brief moment and thank you for taking the time to address this issue and also I wanted to commend, I heard nice talk earlier but commend the city staff in this process that we've been through for a year and a half. We dealt on an earlier project. To name them individually would take too long but everything from planning to engineering, it's been a tremendous, it's a big project for us and probably for the city. Excuse me, they've done a great job. Mayor Jansen: Thank you for sharing that. Appreciate it. David Igel: Yes. Now I don't know that they get enough accommodation. I hear them getting kind of hit here and there but, there' s a few issues and I won't take up much more of your time. There's definitely a smell coming from the lift station. I'm not sure why some people can smell it and some people can't. As it relates to what smells bad and what doesn't, you know there are objective standards on feedlots and different farms and it seems odd to me that if there could be feedlot standards for farmers essentially miles away, why wouldn't there be for someone who's 16 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 house is 30 feet. I really, I don't think it's in the best interest for anyone to spend a great deal of time arguing about what those counts per billion are, or having different professional sniffers out there perhaps. I think that time would be better spent and the money would be better spent just doing what we felt, what we felt we were bargaining for when we made the voluntary easements, which we didn't charge anything for. I think we calculated if they were tO be purchased, you know upwards of $80,000. I think we've done our part. I understand you're in a tough situation with all of the other lift stations. I think we've heard from a couple people tonight and if someone were to go and ask everyone around all of the 29 lift stations, I think you'd probably get a few more complaints about the smell than you've gotten so far so. I would just ask that you would consider addressing that. I think it's the right thing for the city to do. My one other point is regarding the screening. I'm looking at Option A on the site plan that was produced by Bonestroo, but it appears, at least in this, that the intent has always been to screen the entire thing including the control boxes and the wet well. If I'm reading that incorrectly, perhaps someone could correct. Teresa Burgess: You're looking at the Option A with the expanded wet well and when we do the expanded wet well the intention was to screen the entire area. However, when we do just the generator we were not proposing to do the entire screening at that time. It's certainly something if the council feels that's appropriate, that we would revise our numbers and look into, and we can certainly bid it both ways if the council directs plans and specifications be prepared this evening and see what the price comes to. Mayor Jansen: Okay. David Igel: Okay, thank you for that clarification. Thank you for your time. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Anyone else to comment on this project? Seeing no one, I will close the public hearing and bring this back to council. Council, any questions for staff? Councilman Ayotte: A couple. And first off...what she has to deal with so Teresa thanks for putting up with all the concerns and pushing forward. Nuisance law, Rog. Do you know anything about nuisance laws associated with odor? Roger Knutson: Yes. Councilman Ayotte: Could you tell me more? Roger Knutson: First, it's my understanding unless something has changed in the last 6 months, just as an example for feedlots, there is no odor regulation for feedlots. I was involved in a feedlot issue, representing townships and the PCA does not want to go there. Some other states I believe have, but Minnesota does not have anything on the books on, per se on parts per billion of this or that for odor. It's a difficult issue. How many people is disturbed? How strong is it? How many complaints do you get? ' Councilman Ayotte: So are you stating. Roger Knutson: We really can't quantify it. Councilman Ayotte: Okay, there's no mode of measurement. No vehicle for threshold. Roger Knutson: There's no objective measurement for it. 17 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: Okay. Another question if I may Mayor. The Igel's stated that, first Mrs. Igel stated that there was no legal easement and then she stated that there were easements that they provided to the city and then she stated that they can be pulled. Is that true? Roger Knutson: I believe we have all the easements we need and no, they cannot be pulled. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. Teresa Burgess: Her statement Bob, if I can just clarify. Prior to the Igel's purchasing the property we were in negotiations with the previous property owner. He did not want to give easements to the city or to have us purchase easements. He preferred to operate under a handshake agreement with the city. We periodically stopped in and said you know Mr. Swanson, is it okay if we continue to use this? And he would say yes, go ahead and we would plow his driveway in return. That was how he preferred to have it. We, approximately 3 to 4 months before the property was purchased started talking with him about we'd really like to purchase that easement and he sold the property before we were able to negotiate that. But we had not, we had access through an alternative location, it just was not convenient access. We would have had to put in a new road. This access was the most convenient to this parcel and Mr. Swanson was very accommodating and willing to work with us but he did not want a legal piece of paper on his property, and we respected that request on his part. Councihnan Ayotte: One last question. Is there a con'elation between odor, whether or not it's n~teasurable and the capacity of the system's that we're addressing? So the greater the capacity the tess the odor. Can we make that statement, yes or no? Teresa Burgess: The greater impact on odor is really the demographics of the waste. This is mainly residential which means it's mainly water. It's gray water. It's what comes out of your sink. It's what comes out of your sink. It's what comes out of your shower. That's the majority of the flow. If it was industrial, like lift station 24 was prior to Chaska shutting off, those have a much stronger scent because we're talking about more volatiles. As long as the lift station doesn't sit there and just sit there and decay in the lift station, it really doesn't have much of a difference how long. How much is coming through the system. It's what's coming through the system that's more important. Councilman Ayotte: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other questions for staff? Councilman Peterson: Teresa, as a matter of course in the Igel's memorandum they cite that the easements would have had a value of 27 and 76,000 respectively and various other numbers. Again as a matter of course, would we have normally in a subdivision like this reimbursed the property owners or developers for that? Teresa Burgess: No. If they had not willingly donated those easements we would have required them as a condition of the plat approval. Councilman Peterson: Okay, thank you. Teresa Burgess: Tile only way we would have purchased the easement is if they had not platted. If they had purchased the property and lived in the house, we would have purchased the easement and we would have paid probably about what they've estimated. t8 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Councilman Peterson: Yep. The second question. On priority number 1 where we talk about the cost with the fence and without the fence. I look at $20,000 for a fence over a small area seems exorbitantly high, and I don't know whether I'm not seeing something. Teresa Burgess: The fence includes some architectural interest and some screening elements like trees. We have to meet, we don't have to. It seems right that we meet our own planning ordinances and our own zoning ordinances and planning requirements and so what we did was we directed Bonestroo to estimate, assuming that we would meet all standards as they would apply to any private developer. And so the fencing includes some extras that are above and beyond just putting up a standard split face fence. Councilman Peterson: So it'd be reasonable to assume, but it wouldn't be substantially higher if you had to make a guesstimate, it wouldn't be all that substantially higher if we did the control boxes along with the generator? I got one head shaking no in the back of you so. Teresa Burgess: In the scheme of things it's not, no. Todd Gerhardt: We can do that as a bid alternative. Just the addition, you can break it into two phases. Councihnan Peterson: I just want to get a sense and the sense is it's not exorbitant. Todd Gerhardt: Right. I mean you can even, I don't want to play with the architectural style of the fence but you can look at other varieties of fencing too as alternatives. Councilman Boyle: Is the current lift station partially protected by landscaping now, or by trees or bushes or anything? Teresa Burgess: Prior to the Igel development to Big Woods on Lotus development, I'm sorry. I don't mean to refer to it as Igel. I know it's two property owners. The Big Woods on Lotus development, that area was wooded. A lot of that was saved under a conservation easement but it is much more exposed now than it was prior to the clearing for that grading. And so it is more visible. Another issue is that it is right at the curve of the cul-de-sac as they come in. It's very visible and there's not much we can do about that except to put up some sort of screening fence with landscaping. And unfortunately the gate will have to be on the side of the street. There's not a way around it. Mark Rolfs: Probably you won't downsize the fencing. The whole thing now is that we have to rip part of it back down when we add the wet well in the future. So that would be, in 3 years you'd be tearing part of it down. But keep in mind the whole cost is so small in relation to the whole thing that I think you can pretty much do what you want to. Councilman Boyle: I think you've answered this question before but is it feasible that one lift station would have more odor? Teresa Burgess: Certainly. Councilman Boyle: Consistently? Teresa Burgess: Certainly. 19 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Councilman Boyle: Than another lift station. I'm not talking industrial. We're talking residential. Teresa Burgess: The bigger thing is going to be how much wind do you have in the area to dissipate odors. What do you have to contain odors? How sensitive is the person living next door to it? Those are going to be bigger factors than almost anything else. There are certain smells that I can tell you if you're wearing certain colognes from here. I can tell you if you've got it on. And there are other smells that I can't smell at all, and other people have that same thing. Some people are very sensitive to these odors. Some people are not. And that's why it's one of those things where we really can't quantify it because what doesn't bother one person, may drive another up the wall. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Ayotte: Could I ask one more question? Mayor Jansen: Certainly, Councilman Ayotte. Councilman Ayotte: With respect to the lift stations and we may not be able to address for some period of time. Is there anything that we can do, a more aggressive PM program? A more aggressive service program that would mitigate risk to those lift stations. Teresa Burgess: I think our I&I program, our Infiltration and Inflow program is doing a lot of that and we need to keep on top of that program. We need to keep the funding in those program that's already there and to use it. And that is probably the biggest thing. We haven't, you know when we' ve gone to budget cut, that' s always been where we kind of go well, we don't really need to do that. We need to keep on top of that. We need to keep the televising program going. We need to keep on top of our sump pump program. And then as far as odor control, there are some things we can do operationally, and we try them. We don't usually make it real known that we're playing over here trying to make it better because then what we do is we just wait to see if the public, you know if we've received some complaints we try to address them. If we quit receiving complaints, it worked. If we don't, it didn't and that way we're not getting a false response that we did something and people perceive that it is better because we did something. We don't want to lead anybody down the garden path. We want to be truthful about it and so there's some things we do and we do try, but there' s not, without expanding the size of our staff and really going into intensive work on these things, there's not a lot we can do maintenance wise. Councilman Ayotte: But what you said was very key and that's in our surveillance program we should make sure that we keep it alive. That's. Teresa Burgess: We need to keep on top of that program, and as there come better ways to do it we need to look for those so that we can save the funds without, we don't want to just throw money down the hole. We want to be looking for the cheapest way to do the same program, and we're always looking for that. Looking for cheaper ways for us to do the televising. This year one of the cost savings we were able to use that is highly effective is, we're having our intern in- house do our sump pump program and he's going and doing that much cheaper than having a consultant do it. And all those things, we need to look for cost effective ways to do it and still keep those programs functional. And so far we've been able to do that. We've been able to trim from the budget the last couple years. Save some money back and still do the same projects. 20 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 This year we're doing a very intensive program on our infiltration and inflow, specifically because of the outcomes of this study. It identified some things that we were not aware of. We are also at this point doing a sewer metering program that will identify other areas that we need to do work on. Mayor Jansen: Okay council, if we could see if we can move this to comments or a motion. I think we' ve covered the issues pretty extensively around this particular one and it sounds as though we can address the screening issue through the bid alternatives as was suggested by Mr. Gerhardt. But if there are any other comments, otherwise I'll call for a motion. Councilman Ayotte: I would like to consider, to see whether or not staff can see if they could formalize a surveillance program a little bit more. Those lift stations that could potentially be an issue, so not to do it all across the board, but to see if we can increase the surveillance. Mayor Jansen: I think that might be something to address at another time in that that's covering more the general system. If we could do that, okay. Appreciate it. Councihnan Labatt: The only comments I'll make, Teresa, how far is the lift station from the proposed house on Lot 8? Do you know? Teresa Burgess: I don't have the dimensions in front of me. I know that there were discussions, and I haven't seen building permits yet on that house, but there were discussions on could the deck encroach on the easement or not so we're very close to the home. Councihnan Labatt: So when you say very close, are you saying within 40 feet? Teresa Burgess: Yes. I would say we're within 40 feet. I can't guarantee that because I haven't seen building permits. Councihnan Labatt: Now lift station 26, which is the end of Moccasin Trail, is that fight? Is that the one? Which is right at the end of my back yard. There's no screening there. Teresa Burgess: No. Councilman Labatt: The screening that was put there was done by the homeowners. Teresa Burgess: Correct. Councilman Labatt: Okay. So I'm just wondering, are we opening up a can of worms here by potentially having to screen 30. The lift station was there. They subdivided. Created the lot. They created the problem. In our development we have a house fight next door to our's that is about 22 feet from the lift station and those homeowners screened it themselves with pine trees and lilacs. Mayor Jansen: Of the existing lift stations, and this situation I wasn't aware of. How many of them are screened? Is that a question you can answer tonight? Kelley Janes: ...screening, most of them sit out in the open. The only one I could say that is screened, and it isn't directly screened, is just that there is a fence marking the easement area next to Miles Lord's place on the Excelsior/Chan border. There's a fence and gate there but that is 21 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 just, that's on the border and that's the access for our machines to get through his fence to get to the lift station which does sit out in the open... Mayor Jansen: Okay. Interesting point. Teresa Burgess: And as was pointed out earlier though, the generator would, by our own codes, be required to be screened. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Labatt: That's what I'll comment. I mean you know, it seems like a self created problem here. Councilman Peterson: I think as we move ahead, I think we'll, are we not apt to screen them as we move ahead and build more of them, just to follow our code? Teresa Burgess: As we've built new ones, the lift stations are really pretty much non-obtrusive from a visual standpoint. The boxes are a green. They're not, they look like an electrical box. The wet well is under ground. We don't put buildings over most of them so they aren't that obtrusive. Wells, we have been screening our wells and we don't do a full screening. We just put in some landscaping so it looks a little bit nicer. It would be on a basis by basis. Typically they're being built by developers now and so we typically see them being a little bit more screened, just because they're going to try and sell that house that's adjacent to it. But it's not required. Councilman Labatt: All the lift stations have that same antenna, correct? Teresa Burgess: Correct. Councilman Labatt: So I think that's the most obtrusive thing personally as you look out and see this 25 foot antenna, but you know. I'd rather look at a green metal box than the 25 foot antenna if I had a choice. Todd Gerhardt: That's a very important antenna. Councilman Labatt: Yeah I know it is. Todd Gerhardt: That's the most important part because you don't want, if that's not working, we have trouble. Councilman Labatt: I know. Mayor Jansen: Well I appreciate your bringing it to our attention. Thank you. Todd Gerhardt: The council should also know that each lift station doesn't have a generator with it. We have only a couple that I'm aware of. Teresa Burgess: This is the only one. Todd Gerhardt: The only one, okay. And because of the environmental sensitive area that we're working in is why we added the generator to this one. And what we're doing is installing a 22 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 permanent one and taking our temporary away so we can use it at our other lift stations. So that's why we're screening is because of that generator. Councilman Boyle: Well I think as long as we're screening the generator I would like to see what the cost would be to screen the boxes. And precedent setting, possibly bui case by case. That's my thought. Mayor Jansen: If you want to do, I guess I'm leaning towards the consistency and not wanting to really stray from that, but if you wanted to include it as a bid alternative certainly you could include that as part of a motion to take a look at, but I do think we need to look at the long range implications of what we do. But certainly you can include it as a bid alternative. If we could maybe go to a motion at this point, if someone could make the motion. Councilman Ayotte: Well I'll go with the move to approve the feasibility study and authorize preparation of plans and specs for improvements to lift station 2 and 10 as recommended. Teresa Burgess: If I could clarify, that's a typo. It should be lift stations 1 and 10. Councihnan Ayotte: So amended. With the caveat that I would like to see screen options in... Mayor Jansen: Looking for bid alternatives. And if I could have a second please. Councilman Boyle: Second. Resolution #2002-62: Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to approve the feasibility study and authorize preparation of plans and specifications for improvements to Lift Station No. 1 and No. 10 as recommended, including screening options as a bid alternative. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: And Teresa, you mentioned that the next step in the process, just so everyone's aware that is here. There will be your open houses then. Teresa Burgess: The next step in the process, we'll be coming back to council with a cost proposal for the design of specifications and plans for these two pieces and we'll be scheduling the remainder of the project in the CIP. Once we're approximately 60 to 70 percent plans, when we actually have something to share with people but we're not too far to make some major changes, we' 11 send out a notice for an open house and meet with the neighborhood to make sure that we're on the right track. That we're not missing something important and so they have a chance for input in the design process. Mayor Jansen: Okay, great. Thank you. 23 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 PUBLIC HEARING: ASSESSMENT HEARING FOR 2002 MSA STREET IMPROVEMENT PROJECT 01-08. Public Present: Name Address Phil Thiesse A1 Finstad A1 Weingart Tom Pzynski William Asplin Eric Rivkin 1675 Steller Court 1701 Steller Court 1685 Steller Court American Legion Post 580 1665 Steller Court 1695 Steller Court Teresa Burgess: And council I again have some handouts. Councih-nan Ayotte: Is this similar to what's in the packet then? Teresa Burgess: This is more than what's in the packet. This evening council we are holding the public hearing for the assessment roll for MSA Project 01-08. And that is the public in-tprovements to Saddlebrook Curve, Steller Court, Lake Drive, Lake Drive East and Audubon Road north of Lake Drive. What I handed out this evening is we did receive a couple of assessment contentions after the packet was mailed out and I handed out those, as well as the staff report included a final assessment roll and there were a couple of changes that were made based on consistency and also on the legal counsel. I just want to point out those differences, and these are also a little bit different than what was sent out for legal notice. Unfortunately we're required to give legal notice, we're required to give 2 weeks notice, and so sometimes we're still working and massaging. We send out worst case notice with the intention that council has the legal right to reduce assessments but they don't have the right to change them up from what's noticed to people. So with that if we can go through these real quick. Saddlebrook Curve, the assessments have been adjusted from the original feasibility study to be $810 per parcel. This follows the city's assessment practice that we discussed at the time of the feasibility study being put together. These assessments are 40 percent of the project cost and then further reduced to be equivalent to a 31 foot wide road instead of the road that's currently 35 feet. So they are, 31/35 of 40 percent, if that made sense. The next one that I'd like to point out, because it is different than what was sent out in the notices to the public, as well as to what we sent to the packet is Steller Court. These assessments were adjusted to $2,671.57. The number that was sent out in the packet, and it was in the notice to the neighborhood, was based on just the raw numbers. We went back and looked at the feasibility study and the feasibility study number was the $2,671.57, so we maxed the assessment at the maximum of what the feasibility study had in it for assessment rate. Mayor Jansen: Just so you're aware, this is the number that we received in our packet. Teresa Burgess: Right, but it's not the number the public received. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councihnan Labatt: Can you tell us what number they received? Audience: $3,790.00. 24 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Teresa Burgess: I knew it was 3,000 something. Mayor Jansen: $3,790 was the original number. Teresa Burgess: Right. And that's based on the assessment being 40 percent of the pavement cost plus 100 percent of the new curb and gutter because they do not currently have concrete curb and gutter. Is reduced down to being maxed out at the feasibility study assessment roll. Lake Drive is maxed out at the feasibility amount of $4,050. I believe the feasibility actually came out $4,052 but you know if we're going to be exact let's, you know. The assessments actually would have come out closer to $9,000. However we did, as staff, feel that it was appropriate for us to max them out at the feasibility cost estimate. Lake Drive East, you'll notice that the first assessment is $1,875. That is because that lot has been split since the original assessment and one of the things I am asking council for this evening, in addition to adopting the assessment roll, will be to call a supplement assessment hearing for the parcel that was split off of this parcel, and they will share the assessment that would have been on the original parcel. We have to do a public hearing, a supplement public hearing for that parcel only. The remainder assessments are $3,750. That is based on our 40 percent of cost, and the $1,875 is 50 percent of the $3,750. It being equally shared between the 2 lots. And then finally Audubon Road, north of Lake Drive, and the assessment is calculated at $4,050. Again that is because that is the amount shown in the feasibility study. This one again came out close to $9,000. If there are any questions I'd be happy to answer those. This evening we're holding the public hearing so that the public has a chance to speak to the council directly. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff at this time? Councilman Ayotte: I'm afraid so. Mayor Jansen: Councilman Ayotte. Councilman Ayotte: With the disparity, you know we've got industrial activity and with residential activity. The payloads of some of the companies, would that have an adverse affect on the roads versus other companies? Teresa Burgess: The roads are designed, depending on what they're being used for. Certainly if you' ve driven Lake Drive East lately you' ve seen that it has been impacted by the type of traffic that they receive. Audubon Road also because of the heavy traffic. They are impacted by that, and you can see that as you drive them. And that does impact the cost. That's why you see a substantially lower cost on Saddlebrook Curve which mainly serves residential type traffic. It's serving, it's a collector route but at the same time it's serving residential needs. It's not serving industrial park type needs. The other roads are built to a higher standard. They're wider. That's why they see a higher cost per parcel. Is because first of all they have larger parcels, but second of all because it's a heavier duty road and it costs more to keep it up. Councilman Ayotte: So let me play it back to you. Where we have corporate activity, corporate businesses along the road, do you see, you do not see a disparity in the breakout of costs for an industrial application vis a vis an industrial application with people on that road? 25 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Teresa Burgess: They are a heavier duty road and so it certainly does cost us more to maintain those roads. It costs us more to build those roads, and you see that in the assessment roll. When you look at the cost that these people are getting, Saddlebrook Curve at $810 is substantially less expensive than Lake Drive or Audubon or Lake Drive East. And it's because of the additional width of the roads. Because of the additional wear and tear on the roads. The additional need to make repairs. Councilman Ayotte: If we were to have an industrial rate for assessments, is there a way where we could establish a criteria for an industrial rate for assessments? Teresa Burgess: The way we've done our assessments is we've said 40 percent of actual cost. In this case we maxed them out on the feasibility study and that was something that was done just because, out of a sense of fairness. This is what we told people their assessment would be. It didn't seem fair to go higher than that. If we're going to save 40 percent of the cost of the road, if the road costs us $1,000 to maintain and we share, cost share at 40 percent versus if it would cost us $10,000 to maintain and we cost share at 40 percent, they' re seeing a proportionally higher share of the road and proportionally higher assessment. It seems appropriate from the city's standpoint of implementation to keep the policy consistent. And you have a copy of the practice that we used in preparing these. We went with a very simple practice of cost share 60/40. 60 percent city, 40 percent property owner with it then being prorated on collector type streets down to a standard 31 foot road for residential properties. So if we'd have a residential property on Lake Drive, which we don't, we would have taken the width of Lake Drive and we would have prorated the cost based on the width to a 31 foot. It seems appropriate and it's simplistic. It's easy to explain. It's easy to understand what we're doing and why we're doing it. It's not, you B~ow the property next door to you is a house that gets assessed at this rate and you're, you know we get into what should a church be? Should a church be residential or commercial? You have a gas station in the middle of a residential neighborhood. To do this appropriately, it just seems right to be consistent, and some people will get a great rate. Some people will really come out of this with a pretty decent project for a really cheap rate, and some people are going to go, well it's not fair. But it's consistent and that's the best we can offer people is consistency. And in keeping it simple it makes it easier for us to be consistent and it makes it easier for the public to understand when they come in and ask us, how and why did you do it this way? And so I would recommend to council we keep it as simple as possible, and just accept that more expensive projects, you pay a higher amount because 40 percent of more expensive is more. Did I answer that or did I just talk my way out of the question? Mayor Jansen: Okay, any other questions for staff? Okay. I will open this up for the public hearing. If there's anyone here that would like to address the City Council. We do have several projects that are listed on the public improvements and I know it's helpful for us to be able to follow these if we go in a group of order according to the projects, so if you could maybe come to the podium as I call off the projects so we can group all of your comments together, it would be helpful. The first on the list is the Lake Drive East. If there's anyone here that would like to address the Lake Drive East project. Go ahead and step forward to the podium and state your name and address for the record. Tom Pzyns~: My name's Tom Pzynski. I represent the American Legion, Parcel Number 25- 0131900. As Teresa indicated, there is a problem with the assessment on our property because the land has been sold. We had a message from the city earlier today that they would go ahead and split the assessment between the American and Park Nicollet. Park Nicollet hasn't been notified at all, as far as I ~know and Teresa indicated that they're going to have to have a supplemental hearing so I'm here tonight just...notice. 26 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Teresa Burgess: I'I1 take the written notice. And we have discussed the issue of notice with the city's attorney. I talked with Roger this morning. Since the property was split after our notice, our legal notice to the American Legion is also legal notice to the new property owner. We are not required to contact them at the time of split. We did our due diligence at the beginning, and it should have come up during their due diligence at the split and when they purchased the property. The reason for the supplement hearing is because they were not notified of this evening's meeting and did not have an opportunity to prepare a formal objection to the assessment. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Okay, thank you for clarifying that. Anyone else on the Lake Drive East? Okay. How about Lake Drive? Audubon Road north of Lake Drive. Coulter Boulevard from Audubon Road to Pillsbury. Saddlebrook Curve. Then we're to Steller Court. Anyone here on the Steller Court? William Asplin: William Asplin, 1665 Steller, S-t-e-l-l-e-r Court. I rise in objection to this assessment because we were not properly notified, or we feel that we were not properly notified of the planning process to this project at all. We feel that it's unnecessary project. I've so notified Ms. Burgess. I appreciate her willingness to share her time, her thoughts and comments on our thoughts and comments but we feel that this is an unnecessary project. Had we been afforded the opportunity to know that the project was in the planning stages we would have expressed our thoughts at that time. I thank you for your time, thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Teresa, can you address that? Teresa Burgess: I apologize for the typo. My computer automatically changes it because Stellar is for some reason Word and Excel automatically change it and you'll notice I caught it once and didn't catch it on the others. This project came up on our pavement management program. It came up and was evaluated with Lake Lucy Road, along with several other roads in that area. Lake Lucy Road was postponed based on we had received a petition from the property owners requesting sanitary sewer. Since that will require us to dig up the road, we felt it was only appropriate to allow that road to continue to age and deteriorate until it does reach beyond rehabilitation and go into a rehabilitation which means we rebuild the road from the ground up. We dig it all up and start over from scratch. And when we add sanitary sewer we've got to go down 7 feet anyway so what the heck. We might as well squeeze every ounce of life out of that asphalt. Steller Court on the other hand, the asphalt's in good shape. Those lots are zoned large lot. They are, by our own zoning codes, allowed to stay on sanitary sewer as was pointed out by several of the property owners. They were required to put in a pretty substantial septic system when they each built their homes, and were required also to have an alternative site on site for, if that system ever failed. They' re all on wells. They did not come to us and request to not be put on the project and it's unfortunate that they did not feel that they had received public notice, but it does meet the legal requirements and our pavement management system says it's time to do this road. As far as putting in curb and gutter, I know there's been some complaints about should we really do that? Is it necessary? Curb and gutter extends the life of the road. It is our city standard. We would require a developer building this road to install curb and gutter. Again it only seems appropriate that we meet our own requirements and our code requirements that we would place on any developer that would be coming in to do this type of project. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And I went back to the original hearing and like these other projects were listed separately from the Lake Lucy Road project so I was just concerned that if there was some confusion that maybe it had been listed differently than the others, but it in fact was listed the 27 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 same as well Saddlebrook as an example. As an off shoot from Lake Lucy so I did go back and take a look at that. Is there anyone else then to make comment on Steller Court? William Asplin: I'm sorry, could I make one inquiry then? I had requested a copy of that original notice that I think we all received prior to the January 28th meeting is I believe the one you're referencing Mayor. Did you by chance find a copy of that? We're not able to, any of us find a copy that was addressed to the Steller Court residents. Teresa Burgess: I do not have it with me but I can certainly, if you want to leave your, oh I have your address. I can certainly mail you a copy of the original notice. William Asplin: I'd appreciate it, thank you very much. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Teresa Burgess: Mr. Asplin, off the top of my head I can't remember. Did I receive a written objection from you already? William Asplin: I sent you an email which you acknowledged... Teresa Burgess: Okay. I've received several so I just wanted to make sure that you didn't think your verbal would cover it so, thank you. Mayor Jansen: It was one that you handed us out this evening. Teresa Burgess: I received a lot of them. Mayor Jansen: Okay. A1 Weingart: A1 Weingart, 1685 Steller Court. I put together a letter, I think as most of the residents did on our cul-de-sac outlining, apart from the notice issue, just the logical sort of progression that you're going to go about with improving this road before you made a decision on whether you' re going to do Lake Lucy Road. My understanding, and tell me if I'm wrong on this, was that Lake Lucy Road was deferred for purposes of studying whether or not you're going to run sewer and water down Lake Lucy Road to somewhere near Galpin. And if that's done, you know some of us want sewer and water, some of us don't, but we at least would like the option to have sewer and water up Steller Court. And if you're planning on doing that within the next 5 to 10 years, it seems to be a little premature to start tearing up Steller Court because as you can tell by all of us here that we've written letters about, the road isn't that bad. It might not have curb but the couple resurfacing I would think could get that road another 5 or 10 years of use. Now that's a laymen' s sort of assessment of that but the road is not in bad condition and if we have to come back again in 5 years and rip that road up again and then get reassessed once again for sewer and/or water, it seems to be, that's a sticking point with me is to why wouldn't you just wait. Prolong the life of this road for another, you know whatever years you decide until figure out what you're going to do with Lake Lucy Road, and then do it all at once. Seems to me to be a more cost effective and logical way to kind of go about this. So that's all I have. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Teresa, if you might explain the Lake Lucy project. It's not that we're studying it, correct? We're. 28 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 Teresa Burgess: No. We have received a formal petition from the property owners stating that they intend to request sanitary sewer in approximately 10 years as we start to see septic systems fail out there. Councilman Ayotte: Talk a little louder Teresa. Teresa Burgess: We've received a formal petition from the property owners on Lake Lucy Road talking about, they are interested in sanitary sewer, at the time that they start to see failure. Now obviously that's not binding, but it does show that they have a desire. They have been informed that if we allow that road to continue to deteriorate, which is what will happen, no matter how much maintenance we put into it, we just can't keep it in pristine condition. It will continue to deteriorate and at the time that we are required to reconstruct it, their assessments will be, plus inflation, 3 to 4 times what they are proposed as part of this project. And that would be the case also on Steller Court. If we do not do a project, we have basically condemned that road to go down that path. That is certainly an option. Steller Court is within, we have already awarded the contract for Steller Court but it is within the statutory limits for change orders. We could take it off of this project, but in doing that we basically condemn this road to continue to deteriorate. There's no way we' ll come back into this neighborhood until Lake Lucy comes, or another large scale project that we can attach it to. The road is too small to do by itself cost effectively, and it will deteriorate and will require reconstruction, which will be much more intrusive to the neighborhood and will require us to build it from the ground up, even if we don't put in sanitary sewer. The question is if that's really where we want to go with this road? The only thing I would say about this project, different from any other, is that we do have if not unanimous contentions, nearly. I know I've received 5. 4, I'm sorry. I know I've received 4 and I may have received 5 because I didn't count on my way down, contentions on Steller Court, and so we are looking at a lot of contentions. But eventually we will have to do this street, and we'll be looking back and saying why didn't we rehabilitate it. This is why. Mayor Jansen: And we had a similar conversation at the original assessment hearing, and addressed the issue that if we don't do these particular roads now, again like you're saying, it's 3 times the assessment once you get to the point that it's deteriorated so this isn't a unique conversation, but I think what's missing is some of the background conversation that we had at that original public hearing where it was eXplained to us that even though we went out and took a look, and it looks acceptable in laymen's eyes, we're not seeing the potential for this thing to continue to deteriorate and it's at that point where an engineer's looking at it and saying it's time to do it now or it goes beyond, and ends up in that reconstruction phase so all of that conversation was rather extensive with the other property owners that were in on some of those other projects, but on Lake Lucy Road, I'm also recalling that we intentionally delayed it based upon the major development projects that are using that road for all of the construction traffic, and I think that was more our conversation as a council. Is if there's going to be construction traffic on that roadway, why do it now if we can delay it until after those projects are done? That development or construction traffic doesn't affect these cul-de-sacs, so that would not have been part of our original conversation, and that is why the off shoot roads are still moving forward and we're not part of that tabling. Teresa Burgess: This is not an exact science. I can't tell you that in 3 years this road, they're going to be in here screaming that this road needs to be done. I can't tell you that it will be 10 years. We might get 5 years. We might get 10 years. We might get next year. It's not an exact science. Roads deteriorate and once they start, they go fast. Steller Court was recently sealcoated, which sealcoat. You've heard me say it before council. Sealcoat, if you want to put it into a comparable is like painting your house. Rehabilitation is like putting on new siding and 29 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 doing a little repair around the windows, and reconstruction is bulldozing the house and starting over from scratch. And that's basically what we're proposing is, you know we painted the house a couple years ago. It's time for us to change a little siding. If we want to take the gamble on Steller Court based on the number of people that are saying that they don't support this project, I don't have a problem doing that. I look at it then saying, they've stepped forward and hopefully are now making an informed decision that they'd rather take the gamble and wait a few years. But when we do that, we're accepting that that road, we're not coming back here until we have another project to link it to. It's just not economically feasible to do a small cul-de-sac like this with 5 properties without linking it to a larger project like this one, or linking it to a Lake Lucy Road. So it's going to have to wait until we have an appropriate project to put it with. Mayor Jansen: So at this point if council so chose, we could move the Steller Court project to a time table similar to what will happen with the Lake Lucy Road project, as an option. Teresa Burgess: My recommendation to council is that, if you want to take it off of this project, that we do that and we tin'ow it back into the mix with the pavement management program and when it comes up again is when it comes up again. That we not artificially dictate to the pavement management system when it should come back, but we look at it in that context of when it kicks it back out, we'll look at it. And if we're looking at sanitary sewer, that affects how we rate those streets. But that we not, that we allow the system to do what it's supposed to do and not try to artificially tell it how to. Councilman Peterson: Well if we do that, it will kick it out every year for the next umpteen years, right? Teresa Burgess: Correct, and we'll evaluate it every year for the next however many years and we'll look at it and say well it's our chance. Sanitary sewer's coming. Is there something we can feasibly connect it to as another project? Councilman Peterson: So by inference then you're saying that the Lake Lucy Road is coming up and we're evaluating that every year too? Teresa Burgess: Correct. We evaluate it every year from now on. We will do that until it comes up as we have to do the project. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Labatt: So if we defer it and let the road go to the point where it needs a bulldoze job, what's the cost project, ballpark? Teresa Burgess' I can't estimate inflation, but the assessment was originally assessed, was originally calculated at approximately $3,700. And reconstruction is 3 to 4 times more expensive than rehabilitation. So you're looking at 12. Councilman Peterson: But with sewer and water I think it was more the question. Teresa Burgess: Sewer and water is going to go on top of that. You know it depends on how many properties you can come in with. We've seen sewer and water assessments come in at $50,000 a parcel and we've seen them come in at under 2. It's hard to guess. It depends on so many things. How many people can you connect to that project? When you look at BC-7 and 8, we had so many parcels that were participating that we were able to drive those assessments 30 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 under $2,000 a piece. But then the Crestview Circle, we were looking at $15,000 a piece, so it's hard to guess. You know it depends what's come in here in the next few months in projects. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Is there anyone else who would like to comment on Steller Court? Thank you. Eric Rivkin: My name is Eric Rivkin. I'm at 1695 Steller Court and I appreciate the opportunity to come in for comments. You received my email. This was one of the ones that came in... the packet along with some pictures of some prairie restoration that was in bloom at the time. That is within an easement at Steller Court. We have all 5 landowners here on Steller Court represented. Three of these landowners have prairie restorations there. We all would have appreciated a true and legal notification of this project listed as quote, the Steller Court road improvement project. Not buried in the name of Lake Lucy Road improvement project, because that project was tabled and we assumed that the Steller Court and everything else...was also tabled so there was no interest in coming in and protesting or giving comments in learning about this project on Steller Court. And so while we saw was a notice, perhaps back in December-January timeframe that may have said Lake Lucy Road. It raised some eyebrows. The project was tabled and then all we see is an assessment notice. So inbetween that time there's really no, you know due process. So I assume your role is to be nice to us and be human and just I concur with the recommendations that are being, going down the path here of tabling this or putting on a hold until it's combined appropriately with a larger project. It would seem to make more sense to dig up the entire road. I' ve been there since the inception. I think most of the landowners here have been here since Steller Court was ever put in. I was there when it was a deer path, and bought my lot there. I have pictures I could show you but it would be a moot point but Steller Court doesn't get any traffic. It's not a through street. It's got only 5 landowners on it. It's been in pretty much the same shape as it's been for 15 whole years. There's no drainage problem. There's no erosion problem. One of our landowners had contacted some road engineers and said that the only reason they really put in an improvement from tar curb to concrete curb is because if you had drainage problems. That' s the large thrust of it. It's not aesthetics. It' s not the consistency. Just because to be consistent, but there has to be a good reason for it. Because concrete curbs are more expensive than the curb we have now. But there's no problem. Okay. We don't have any parking problems. There's no surmountability issues. And the other reason that we have issue, we have, we would like sufficient notice in the future that this project be labeled Steller Court improvement project on all notification so that we're not, it's not buried somewhere, okay. You can spell it with an E or an A. It doesn't matter. We'll know what it is, okay. And that it be brought out explicitly as that name. And that it gives us, 3 out of the 5 landowners here have true prairie restorations. We need the springtime when it's wet, the ground, to be able to take little blue stem and all our flowers and we've spent thousands of dollars to restore this to prairie. It's a natural amenity to the city. People come and take pictures of it, okay it's so pretty. We've inspired lots of people to do that and it's a lot less, it's an inspiration to people who want to use less water and less drain on the water system of the city to put in prairies, okay. So we've got that in place. We need the springtime to be able to transplant things out of the 2 foot easement and they get ruined when you put in curb. So that's why we need ample notification. It's too late now to do that. If you' re going to come in and build in July-August timeframe, you know these plants should have been out of there at least a month or two ago. So I thank you very much. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Teresa Burgess: If I could answer Madam Mayor. Mayor Jansen: Please. 31 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Teresa Burgess: I don't know which road engineers the gentleman spoke to or what they were speaking to. However, it is city standard to have concrete curb and gutter, and it does provide some additional benefit besides just drainage. The color contrast provides additional visual impact. The concrete protects the edge of the pavement, both from drainage issues as well as traffic, and yes this is a low flow area but it does have an impact when people pull off the street, and yes this one's in good shape but it's our standard. We do require it of all developers. It only seems fair that the city follow it's own guidelines they make developers follow and when we do projects that we should follow those same standards and so that is what we're trying to do here. Is meet our own standards. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. A question on the notifications that went out, and I thought I had a copy of those in that original packet. Weren't all of the street names given, or was it in fact lumped under Lake Lucy Road project?- Teresa Burgess: All of the street names were individually listed on all public hearings. And they were listed in the notices in the paper, all of the street names were listed. We did have a lump project name of the 2002 MSA street improvements that we did refer to this project by, but in the public hearing notice we did list the individual project names. By law we are required to do that in the assessment hearing, but we also did it in the feasibility study to avoid that confusion. I don't have a copy of it with me. I do have all the staff reports but I don't have the public hearing. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Alright, thanks for clarifying that. I could see where that would have been confusing if it was listed just under one project name. Is there anyone else present then to discuss any of these projects that would like to step forward to the podium? A1Finstad: Yeah, I'm A1Finstad from 1701 Steller Court. I'm the fourth property owner up there and the fifth I think you'll hear from shortly. We've reviewed this. We live in the street. We're familiar with the street, although yes we are laymen but we also have common sense and I think a certain amount on instinct on certain things and this road being one of them. I think that if 100 percent of us decide thanks, but no thanks. We'll take a pass. We'll have to live with our decision if that road requires an extensive rebuilding at a later date at a more expensive cost, then I guess we'll have to bear that, so I'd like to... Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Anyone else wishing to address the council? Jerry Paulsen: Jerry Paulsen, 7305 Laredo Drive. General comment on road improvements in general, and maintenance I guess. I seem to recall something in the past at a meeting saying that state law requires the improvement assessment to be offset by an increased property value before this can be legally done. And it seems like it becomes rather subjective as to how much you charge a certain owner versus another owner, and in the long run it would be beneficial to assess the whole city on these type of projects because I use his road perhaps, and maybe he uses my road and trucks here and there, you can't really control it so just a general suggestion whether you can aim it that direction. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Appreciate that Jerry. In fact that was one of our conversations around when we were discussing how our practice should go, and it would raise our tax levy on the city so tremendously that it would have a significant impact to try to do that. But we certainly weighed that as one of the alternatives as we were trying to address that, but thanks for mentioning that. Anyone else who would like to address the council on these projects? Seeing no one, I'll close the public hearing and bring this back to council. Council, any questions for staff at this time? 32 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 Councilman Boyle: I don't have any questions. It's been pretty well beat around I think. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Ayotte: I would like to make a comment. Mayor Jansen: We can move to comments then. Councilman Ayotte. Councilman Ayotte: I'm uncomfortable with the consistent concern I've heard with respect to public notice. Not necessarily associated with what we do with respect to legality and making sure we dot the I's and cross the T's, but nonetheless I'm hearing from folks here tonight, just not on Steller but in other points that public notice may be an issue and ! have, I'm voicing a concem about that and I'm not exactly sure what to go forward is, but that's an issue. Point number two. I believe very strongly in life cycle and the management program that Teresa has. And there will be an increase. If this council does not go forward with this, people on Steller will see a significant increase so I'm not exactly sure how my vote's going to go, but I hope folks understand that. It will be steep. So make sure your wishes may come true and you will not get an assessment tonight but you're going to get a fat bill down the road. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councihnan Ayotte: So just understand that. Mayor Jansen: Any other comments council? Councihnan Ayotte: No ma'am. Mayor Jansen: Councilman Boyle. Councilman Boyle: There's several factors that come out. First of all you have 5 residents, 5 homeowners that say no thank you. They all 5 realize that the next assessment could be 3 to 4 times larger, and they still say no thank you. Very little traffic on the road. How long it's going to last, they're willing to take the gamble. If they're willing, I'm willing. That's where I'm at. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councilman Peterson. Councilman Peterson: See I have probably a little different perspective on that. I don't know if I'm willing to gamble with 60 percent of the cost of that. It's the other citizens money we're gambling with and not just their's. We're playing with not only their money but the rest of Chanhassen. Another alternative I think that based upon the comments on Lake Lucy that we had, that we decided to delay that for many reasons, but most of which was we're going to put sanitary sewer and water in there, I'd be motivated to allow Steller Court to follow the same path. That we would delay that at the same time that Lake Lucy puts in sewer and water, then we put sewer and water in there. That seems to be fiscally product to do from a city perspective, but I don't know if I've heard the citizens say that they want sewer and water. I think at one point in time I think I heard some say they did, some say they didn't. So then where I'm leaning is I would say, let's maybe table this decision and let staff, allow them to make it but I would say that if the majority of the residents agree that it won't be touched until sewer and water comes in, then to allow that to happen. Otherwise I'd have a difficult time approving it tonight just on the basis that nobody wants it. I don't think that's a sound decision based upon our pavement management program that we've kind of signed up for. So it's a different twist to it. 33 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 Mayor Jansen: And I would echo Councilman Peterson's comments and also I guess where I was going is on the Lake Lucy Road project is it also makes sense from what I'm hearing that for this project to be fiscally feasible it needs to be attached to a larger project and I'm distinctly remembering council tabling that project to have it delayed until after that development is in place. So I wasn't anticipating that the Lake Lucy Road project was going to go back into the pot and end up having to bubble up to the top. I'm assuming it will just forever keep bubbling up to the top and it will be a top priority each year. I'm just suggesting that. Teresa Burgess: Right. As it comes up every year, we evaluate those top priorities and the Lake Lucy, we look at it and say well, we're not doing that one because we still have development going on in that area so it drops off the list. What will happen with this one is it will bubble up to the top and we'll say, well we're not doing Lake Lucy and there's nothing else to attach it to. It will drop off the list until we have something to attach it to. But the system will continue to bring it up as a potential project. We then put in some common sense on top of it. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Councihnan Labatt, any comments? Councilman Labatt: I'm fine with Craig's comments and his position. The only concern I would have is if in the meantime this thing were to go downhill and we'd have to replace the road and do a bulldoze, that I think they should be assessed 100 percent. As long as we're here to say, you know we'll do it now for $2,600 bucks. If they want to gamble and roll the dice, and in 8 years and Lake Lucy isn't on the radar screen and this road's failed, I'm not willing to spend 60 percent of people that live over in Lake Susan Hills' money on their road because they didn't want to do it now. So if we cart make that point, but you know, hopefully all the stars will line up and Lake Lucy will come down when Steller Court needs to be done, for their sake but. Councihnan Peterson: Roger, is that doable even? To assess somebody 100 percent based upon some caveats. Roger Knutson: First as far as a future assessment, some period down the road not yet determined, the City Council that sits at that time will have to make that decision. You can give them advice in your minutes. Councilman Labatt: Make a note in the file then. Teresa Burgess: That is why we have a practice and not a policy is that the council has the freedom to make that decision as they see appropriate...this project comes back and the feasibility study we'll certainly take it into account and discuss it with the council that's sitting at that time. Councilman Peterson: Teresa if you could make a prognostication on your experience, is that road likely to fail before Lake Lucy is, based upon the knowledge you have today, is that road likely to fail prior to Lake Lucy being redone? Teresa Burgess: No. It will probably go about the same time as Lake Lucy. They receive the same type of maintenance. It receives less traffic. So it will probably hold up. Will it be up to what we'd like to see it? No. But it will certainly hold out. Councihnan Peterson: You're still going to do pothole filling and the normal routine maintenance. 34 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Teresa Burgess: We'll do pothole filling. We'll do crack sealing. However we have changed our policy on crack sealing. Not crack sealing, sealcoating. We no longer sealcoat cul-de-sacs which Steller Court is a cul-de-sac. So it will no longer receive sealcoats. It received it's last one. It will still receive potholing and crack sealing and other maintenance as our street crews feel it appropriate. Councilman Boyle: But Teresa the sealcoating, when I went up on Steller Court, it appeared to me it just went for a portion, not the entire cul-de-sac. Teresa Burgess: Correct. Councilman Boyle: Is that typical? Teresa Burgess: We quit doing the bulbs and now we have said we will not be doing the cul-de- sac period. It's just not providing us enough benefit for the cost, and it also causes problems when we come back and try and do these types of projects because people can't see how many times we've patched that road and it looks nice and black and uniform. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other comments council? Otherwise I'll call for a motion. Councilman Labatt: No, I've got none. Mayor Jansen: If I could have a motion please. Councihnan Boyle: I would make a motion that we exclude Steller Court from this project. Roger Knutson: And adopt the balance of the assessments? Mayor Jansen: So you're moving to approve the assessment rolls without excluding, with the exclusion of Steller Court. You've got the recommendation. Councilman Boyle: And what's the implications of that? Councihnan Peterson: You have to put a caveat onto what you want to do with Steller Court. Teresa Burgess: If I could. This evening all we need from you is adoption of the assessment roll, and if you simple exclude Steller Court, then we will come back with a change order to take it off of the construction project as directed by council. And we've already received that direction. Councilman Peterson: I'd like to take care of the discussion and a decision tonight if we can, as to what this council plans to do with Steller Court. There's no reason to have all these people come back again to figure out where our heads are next week. Teresa Burgess: No. The change order will be put on consent. From what I'm hearing from council, you're directing us to postpone that project until Lake Lucy, am I incorrect? Councilman Peterson: Well you've got a couple that have said that. I don't know where. Teresa Burgess: I'm sorry if I'm assuming that. 35 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: There's still a question of fixing Steller Court and Lake Lucy project. Mayor Jansen: Okay tell you what. How about if we have the motion cover the balance of the issue and then we'll discuss Steller Court and do a separate motion on Steller Court if that's acceptable. Okay. Councilman Peterson: I second the motion. Mayor Jansen: We also need the motion, should I make it a friendly amendment? We need to call a supplemental public hearing for the lot split from the American Legion Post. Do you accept that friendly amendment to your motion? Councilman Boyle: Yes. Roger Knutson: Mayor, just so I am clear on the motion. The motion is to adopt the assessment roll as presented by staff, deleting the properties on Steller Court and two, calling a supplemental assessment for the property that was split off that was earlier discussed. Councilman Boyle: I think you're right on. Mayor Jansen: Correct. And we have a second to that motion. Resolution #2002-63: Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to adopt the assessment roll for City Project #01-08, deleting Steller Court, and calling a supplemental public hearing for the American Legion/Park Nicollet lot split. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: So then we need a separate discussion around how we would direct staff to handle the Stetler Court project. Councihnan Peterson: I've already given my thoughts so, whether we augment that with Steve. Councilman Labatt: I'm fine with it Craig. I mean obviously I can't control council 15 years from now but, I hope I'm not sitting up here then. So I'm fine with Craig's position. Mayor Jansen: If you'd like to make a motion. Councilman Peterson: I'd make a motion that we put a caveat onto Steller Court that we tie that directly to the Lake Lucy Road project when, and if that happens. Sewer and water will be added to Steller Court at the same time that it would be added to Lake Lucy Road. Now what I also offered was that staff should work with the residents of Steller Court to ensure that that is the direction that they want to go. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And if I could have a second to the motion please. Councilman Boyle: Second. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to direct staff to tie Steller Court to the Lake Lucy Road sewer and water improvement project in the future. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. 36 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 The City Council took a brief recess at this point in the meeting. PUBLIC HEARING: ASSESSMENT HEARING AND AWARD OF BIDS FOR 2002 RESIDENTIAL STREET IMPROVEMENT PRO~IECT 01-10. Public Present: Name Address Bruce Trippet 1895 Partridge Circle Teresa Burgess: I have more handouts. This is what happens when these public hearings... public notices. This again is a contention that was received after the packet was sent out to council. The official copies of all these are in the engineering department, if anybody wants to see them. If they are or are not contained in the council packet does not make them legal. It's just for the council's information. The legal copy is the copy that's received by the city clerk, which is Todd Gerhardt, and I collected those on his behalf and filed them and I will respond to all of those people so anyone that did pick up a packet and didn't see your's, if it's not in there, that's okay as long as I received it and I have responded to everyone I received emails. This evening on this parcel, on this project we are requesting the council first of all to hold an assessment hearing, and then if they still deem this project appropriate to award bids for the construction project for 2002 Residential Street Improvement Project, and you'll all of the parcels listed out. Pintail Circle, Ringneck Drive, White Drove Drive, White Dove Circle, Wood Duck Circle, Wood Duck Lane, Steller Circle, which did cause a little confusion for us. Moline Circle, Pheasant Drive, Pheasant Circle, Partridge Circle, Teal Circle, Whitetail Ridge Court, Melody Hill Road and Lake Lucy Lane. The assessment roll is attached. There are no changes from what was sent out with the council packet. We did receive 3 bids for this project. They are all higher than the engineer's estimate of $272,395, but they are all looking at them because we did receive 3 bids. We do feel that they are appropriate and they are in keeping with the bids that we received for the MSA project and so we are still recommending that council approve the project as bid by Bituminous Roadway in the amount of $311,193.25 if the council still feels this project's appropriate at the end of the assessment hearing. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff at this time? Then I'll open this for the public hearing, if there's anyone present that would like to address. I'm just going to open it up on all of the projects. Any of these projects that are listed, please step forward to the podium. If you'd state your name and address for the record please. Bruce Trippet: Bruce Trippet at 1895 Partridge Circle. And because there's been different documents, I'm just kind of confused if the staff could perhaps clarify. For this street improvement project 01-10, is there a map that you could show us so we can see which streets are included? You rattled off a bunch of the streets but it sounds like a little bit different from the one document that I've got just lists them so I'm still kind of confused within this project what it all entails so if there's a map, perhaps you could show us so we can quickly see. And it might be the same question for other folks that are here so just clarifying what the project is that we're talking about. Teresa Burgess: I apologize, I did not grab the map and Matt will run up and grab one from the office. The document that you have, we actually held an open house where we had 2 projects in the same open house. Because quite often we have the staff outnumbers the public, we held both public hearings, both public open houses. One, in this council chambers. One in that end of the 37 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 room and one in this end of the room, and so the notice listed out all of the streets for the MSA improvement and for this project. It's both projects together and that's why there's more streets listed. Matt will bring down a copy of the plans and it does show what is included but what's included here is what we refer to as the Pheasant Hills neighborhood and so it's the streets that are listed. Mayor Jansen: Is there an extra copy of the staff report still available on this one Nann? Number 5. Maybe we could share that. That has all of the streets listed that were just called off. Bruce Trippet: And then I like many of the other laymen here, think that my road looks fine but if the city believes that it should be improved, okay. I' 11 go with that, but my question's on the process. Some of the documentation I've seen says that there's a defined process as far as assessments. The 40 percent to the neighborhoods, the 60 percent remaining city funds. So my question is really two fold. One, am I to assume, I' ve got an assessment that says the amount that they're looking at assessing myself and Partridge Circle, $1,706.99. Say $1,700. Is that the same amount that's being assessed across all the neighborhoods? I mean I don't know what they're getting so my question is, are we being fair? So are we assessing the same amount across everybody that's in this project? Teresa Burgess: If you look in the packet that Nann just handed you, it includes the entire assessment roll. It also includes the assessment practice as you page through it, and all of the assessments on this, in this project, it was determined that the parcels are of relatively similar value and they were all assessed the same amount across the board. All parcels were assessed $1,706.99. I wish I would have caught it sooner and we would have rounded that off to a nice even number, but I'd already sent the notices. It' s one of those where it gets automated and unfortunately we didn't round those numbers to nice even numbers. And then the final point is the 40/60. Could the staff or council address where we came up with 40 versus 30 versus 50. Again, I'm a little bit nervous, I mean this is impacting my neighborhood so I'm concerned, but I would assume that we' ve done this before so have we always used the 40/60 rule when we did any other neighborhood in Chanhassen? When I see that it hasn't been perhaps defined I'm wondering, I mean is this a set policy and so when we assess other neighborhoods next year, the year after, is this, are we being fair across all the citizens? Mayor Jansen: That is why we established a practice, and that was our concern is that we be fair, and we did an extensive evaluation of how to be fair at the beginning of this year before we entered into the assessment hearings on the project, and that's where we've done some adjustments to the roads and the road widths where some people are living on collector roads that are being traveled by more vehicles than say just a neighborhood road. So there was a great deal of analysis put into it and we did compare ourselves to other cities and what their practices are and found this practice to be one that we would be able to financially have feasible in the city of Chanhassen as far as being able to protect the quality of our roadways, and not put an even more significant burden on each of the property owners. So there was a great deal of study around it. Bruce Trippet: Okay, so the 40/60 is pretty much locked in as we move ahead? That's kind of a set policy? Mayor Jansen: That is the practice and you'll always hear that councils can always change those, but at this point that is what we have in place and what we'll move forward as far as any recommendations coming forward from staff. 38 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 Bruce Trippet: Okay, and then just one final question. I believe the Partridge Circle, Pheasant Hill Addition, that's a relatively new addition. 15-20 years old. So are we to expect, if I stay here this long, this sort of assessment every 20 years? Is that basically how often these roads need to be repaired? Teresa Burgess: If you do this type of project you can do them every 20 to 25 years and assuming that nothing happens to cause sub-base failure, you can do that indefinitely to maintain the life of the road and the health of the road. If you don't, you do a rehabilitation project approximately every 30 years. 25 to 30 years. Sometimes you get more, and I've seen streets that are 50 years old that look great. I've seen streets that are 10 years old that really need to be rehabilitated. So it does depend on the weather conditions, when it was placed. The sub-soils but typically 20 to 25 years is when you're going to see this type of project. Bruce Trippet: Okay, and then just one final thing. I mean I got an assessment letter but is this number going to change? I mean I hear we're putting up bids and they might be a little bit higher. Teresa Burgess: No, the bids are in. The council will decide tonight if the assessment is appropriate. Once the council makes their decision, that number is locked. It will go to the county at that number and that will be it. I can't change it after that and the council, the only thing the council can do would be to retract the assessment and I don't even know how we'd do that but I know we can. Mayor Jansen: So it's a set number. Bruce Trippet: ...another official notice on what the final number is. Teresa Burgess: I will send out a notice following the council action tonight to everyone that's on the assessment roll, plus anyone that was on the feasibility assessment roll that was not on this assessment roll, telling them what their final assessment is so that they know. Bruce Trippet: Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Is there anyone else here this evening that would like to address one of the projects included in this roadway project? Teresa Burgess: Madam Mayor, while we're waiting. Just to clarify, our previous assessment practice was 100 percent to anybody that's wondering at home what we used to do before we settled on 40. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you for adding that. Councilman Peterson: It depends on what year you're speaking to but that's true. Teresa Burgess: Which street, what year and how eloquently they spoke to that sitting council. Mayor Jansen: Alright, so with that I will close the public hearing and bring this back to council. Council, comments? Otherwise I'll call for a motion. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve. 39 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Councilman Labatt: Second. Resolution #2002-64: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to approve the final assessment roll for the 2002 Residential Street Improvement Project No. 01-10. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Teresa Burgess: Madam Mayor, I also need a motion for award of bids. Councilman Peterson: I thought that's what that was. Teresa Burgess: Didn't you just adopt the assessment roll? Councilman Peterson: Yeah. Teresa Burgess: You only did the one motion. Councilman Peterson: First motion was, I moved to approve the final assessment roll. I'll make a second motion, move to award contract to Bituminous Roadways in the amount of $311,193.25. Councilman Labatt: Second. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to award the contract for 2002 Residential Street Improvement Project No. 01-10 to Bitunfinous Roadways in the amount of $311,193,25. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. REQUEST FOR A 7 FOOT SIDE YARD VARIANCE FOR EXPANSION OF A GARAGE ADDITION. 3920 LESLEE CURVE~ PAUL & LIBBY SCHEELE~ KNIGHT CONSTRUCTION. Bob Generous: Thank you Madam Mayor, council members. Fll be brief. The applicant is appealing a denial of their variance application to the Planning Commission. They want to expand their garage forward. Unfortunately the house doesn't meet setback now. The expansion doesn't meet setback. The first time they came in they showed the plan on the table. It was tabled by the Planning Commission. They said look at some alternatives. They came back a second time with some revisions to the plan that shifted the garage over. They also looked at alternate locations on the site but they weren't happy with that. Their revisions actually reduce the variance by a half a foot. The Planning Commission again voted to deny it but it was on a 3- 2-1 vote. 3 for it, 2 against and i abstaining. They appealed their denial to the City Council. Staff is recommending that you affirm their denial of the variance with the expansion and with that I'd be happy to answer any questions. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff council? Councilman Boyle: I have no questions. Mayor Jansen: Okay. If the applicant is present this evening and would like to address the council, please step forward and state your name and address for the record please. Paul Scheele: I'm Paul Scheele, 3920 Leslee Curve. Property owner requesting for this appeal. Appreciate the importance of your work and thank you for your time Madam Mayor and council members. We're here on the urging of several of the planning committee members. They said 4O City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 please, seek an appeal to this so I'm here. Brief history on the property. It was designed by Les Anderson in 1957. It's in the far comer of the zoning map if you will. Northwest comer. It was conceived in 1957. Built near Lake Minnewashta. Pleasant Acres is the name of it. He originally designed it after living in Minneapolis because he wanted 20 to 30 feet between each home and it's property line. I spoke with the widow of Mr. Anderson and she said that there was a mistake in putting our building. It was staked improperly. They don't know if it was a surveyor or who, but they discovered that in fact they had put it too close to the property line. Unfortunately after it was already built. Now the intent that Mr. Anderson had for the community, which was actually established far before the current regulations of a 10 foot minimum setback from the side, is still maintained in the spirit that it was originally intended because what we're asking for is a 7 foot variance, but in fact there is 46 feet between our property and the adjacent property. If you have read the minutes you know that all of the neighbors support this project. They came to speak to it. We're moving basically straight out from the existing garage, as you've seen in the plans. The city planners took time to come out and look and in the minutes you'll see that they spoke to the aesthetics of it. They supported the importance of it from the need of the maintenance of the current structure. The update of the property is a good update. And in fact we were encouraged to seek an appeal on the variance for the original plan that you see here, even though we did make adjustments and came back to them. Several of them said we really do like the original plan better in terms of the aesthetics that Were there. If I may show one picture. Mayor Jansen: Sure. Paul Scheele: This is a picture of our property on the right. Brad Vonruden's property on the left, who came to speak in favor of this project. It shows that moving straight out on the property on the right for the addition on the garage would still keep 46 feet between us, the next property. We have made some adjustments on the roof line and so on to try to minimize the existing minimum impact. So we appreciate that you will consider this request and grant this appeal. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions for the applicant council? Okay. Councilman Labatt: I have one. In staff's 'report here, and I'll read it to you word for word. Though not discussed as part of the hearing, the Scheele' s could purchase property from the neighbor to the east to bring the house into conformance with the zoning ordinance eliminating the need for a variance. Have you considered that? Paul Scheele: I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question. Councilman Labatt: I'll read it again. Though not discussed as part of the hearing, the Scheele's could purchase property from the neighbor to the east to bring the house into conformance with the zoning ordinance eliminating the need for a variance. Have you considered that option? Paul Scheele: I've considered it. We haven't presented it to city planners or the council. Councilman Labatt: Can I ask why? Paul Scheele: We want to seek, for simplicity sake, moving the property straight out. No additional costs. We're talking about resurveying. We're talking about purchase, land purchase. And the movement of any existing properties that they have. They have a shed and a number of 41 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 other things. I don't really know how that process works but would we have to come back to you for something like that? Mayor Jansen: Actually that would just be a private purchase between landowners, correct Bob? Bob Generous: We would just stamp off on any deeds. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Does that answer your question Steve? Councilman Labatt: Yes. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other questions? Okay, thank you very much. The public hearing for this was held at the Planning Commission so this is not a public hearing. We of course have the minutes from both meetings that we' ve been able to review so I will bring this back to council and council, if you have comments at this time or any questions for staff. Don't everybody jump in. Then I'll call for a motion. Councilman Ayotte' Well as far as I'm concerned, I'm going to go with the homeowner. I think we should allow him to build. That's my motion. Roger Knutson: You move to grant the variance? Councihnan Ayotte: Yeah. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Around that motion, do we have a second? Councihnan Boyle: I will second. Mayor Jansen: And then I' m going to call for comments on the motion. Discussion of the motion. Councilman Boyle: Bob, if the property is going forward, and I know it's probably in there, how many feet is the garage going to be extended forward? 147 I just don't remember. I thought maybe you remembered. Councihnan Peterson: How far is the garage going forward? Mayor Jansen: 14. Councilman Boyle: 14 additional feet forward. And that would put it how close to the street? Paul Scheele: Quite a ways. It's about, we're still. Mayor Jansen: 50. Paul Scheele: 15 feet of just the minimum line, so we're about 35 feet in. Bob Generous: Off of Leslee Curve. They're 50 feet back with the expansion. Councilman Boyle: When the Planning Commission voted 3 against, or 3 against the variance, what was their major objection to this variance? 42 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 Mayor Jansen: It doesn't meet hardship. Bob Generous: Yes. Mayor Jansen: Same as {he staff recommendation. There are other options on the property as far as, and this was. Bob Generous: Complying with ordinance. Councilman Boyle: Okay, that's what I was wondering. Todd Gerhardt: Bob, it's not the two additions that they're requesting the variance on. It's because the house is basically non-conforming to the current zoning on the setbacks for the side yard, so they can't put an addition onto the house because it's non-conforming to our current standards. Does that make sense to you? Mayor Jansen: It increases the non-conformity. Councilman Labatt: But Mr. Scheele wasn't behind the non-conformity. He purchased a non- conforming house, correct? Todd Gerhardt: Correct. Mayor Jansen: The way it was built. Councilman Labatt: Right. Right. Councilman Peterson: Based on the circumstances I think it's reasonable to, we're going to have a better property. The neighbors aren't pissed off, quote unquote. I think we should vote in favor. Mayor Jansen: Okay. I certainly support any of the renovations and remodeling that we can do that update our established neighborhoods. This doesn't seem like an extreme circumstance. As far as the Planning Commission guidelines that they needed to follow, I can appreciate the way that they did vote and stood by the ordinances and our requirements that there truly be a hardship proven. If I was sitting on that commission I'd be basically voting probably the same way that they did, and say there were probably other options and alternatives that possibly could be explored. But at this point I'm looking at it being a family that's wanting to stay in Chanhassen and a home that will be improved by this, what seems like a minor variance though it is a non- conforming situation so I'm not going to object. So we have a motion and a second. Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Boyle seconded that the City Council approves Variance #2002-4 for 3920 Leslee Curve. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Councilman Boyle: I think it's important to comment that the Planning Commission did their job appropriately. 43 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 Mayor Jansen: Thank you. And thank you to the residents. I know you came in on two meetings with the project and we appreciate your having shown some flexibility to bring in some alternatives for them at that point so thank you. REQUEST FOR A SETBACK VARIANCE FOR THE RECONSTRUCTION OF A GARAGE ON A NON-CONFORMING LOT OF RECORD, 3628 HICKORY ROAD, STEPHEN GUNTHER. Bob Generous: This one's actually opposite. The Planning Commission voted to approve this but it was on a 4 to 2 vote. To approve variances they need 75 percent affirmative, and so they were at 66 percent and so it comes forward to you for a final determination. The applicant has been working with staff to reduce the amount of impact on setbacks. Originally they started out with a 13 foot setback from Hickory Road and now they're at 17 feet. They've reduced the size of the house. They're actually lessening the non-conformity on this site and so staff is recommending approval of the option 2 variance with the 17 foot setback from Hickory, 28 foot setback from Red Cedar Point and a 5 foot side yard setback. The side yard setback is necessary to preserve an existing oak tree that's on site. With that I'd be happy to answer any questions. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. So Bob, the way that you have the recommendation worded would be our approval of your option 2, correct? Bob Generous: Correct. Mayor Jansen: Okay, great. Any questions for staff? Okay. I can open this up if the applicant is here for any comments, though we have had the minutes to review from the Planning Commission. If there's something new that you care to add or anything to the staff recommendation. I don't think we need a great deal of encouragement here. Steve Gunther: Maybe I'll just sit down. Mayor Jansen: I didn't mean to discourage you but. Councilman Peterson: The standing up is What got me. Motion to approve. Councilman Labatt: Second. Mayor Jansen: And I think from staff's cormnents, I mean this does improve the setback from the two roads and it does move it out of the sight distance triangle so as they are saying, it does lessen the non-conformity so all those in favor say aye. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to approve Variance 4/2002-5 for 3628 Hickory Road for a 17 foot setback from Hickory Road, 28 foot setback from Red Cedar Point and a 5 foot side yard setback. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. Mayor Jansen: So thank you. I appreciate your having made some adjustments to your plan when you were working with the staff on this and reducing the size and working with us to maintain that mature tree on your lot so thank you. Great, thank you. In fact Bob, didn't the adjustments on the plan happen after the Planning Commission? As far as the size. After the first one? Okay. Thanks. 44 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: COUNCIL/COMMISSION LIAISON UPDATE. Councilman Labatt: The only thing I want to add is our hats off to the entire Park and Rec staff and commission for one heck of a 4th of July celebration here in town. It was fabulous. Well attended and it was a great job too. Mayor Jansen: Great, thanks for mentioning that. Todd Gerhardt: I'll pass that on. Mayor Jansen: Anything else council members? I don't think there were a tremendous number of meetings between our last one and this one. Councilman Peterson: No, you already brought up the issue with the 101/Pioneer Trail. The only - other thing that kind of tags along to that, Southwest Metro, I read it in the paper, is eliminating the Dial-a-Ride service in the area, which is substantial. They thought it could have been substantial but the number of people that came to the public hearing to discuss that was zero so that was a good thing. It means that Metro Mobility and other services mitigated the issue in and of itself, but it is a big change. And one of the big issues that's left is that Pioneer Trail/101 area because they were planning on picking up a couple of the people that did Dial-a-Ride on that route on Pioneer Trail but they can't do that because of the traffic so further reinforces the need for us to creatively find a way to get a stop light there. Mayor Jansen: Yes, we're working on a joint effort with the other cities and Southwest Metro Transit and the county to see if we can't forward the issue with MnDot of having a light placed at the comer of Pioneer Trail and 101. Teresa Burgess: And just for the council's information, I do have a meeting with MnDot to discuss a light at that intersection and it is scheduled within the next 5 years. They want to talk about should they move it up or not. Councilman Peterson: When's your meeting? Teresa Burgess: I don't have my calendar. It's within the next 3 weeks. Councihnan Peterson: Is it with Len? He's got one on the 18th. Teresa Burgess: Leslie Vermillion was the person that called me to set it up. I don't who else is attending. Mayor Jansen: Okay, good. That's terrific. And Southwest Metro Transit of course as they were eliminating the Dial-a-Ride worked very hard to put in place fixed route service and they did put a tremendous effort behind the public hearings and input and trying to coordinate that so I'm glad to hear that the public hearing process proved that hopefully they did their j ob very well. I(H). APPROVAL OF CHARGE STATEMENT FOR PROPERTY MAINTENANCE & RENTAL HOUSING LICENSING. Mayor Jansen: Under the administration presentations we tabled, or moved, agenda item 1 (h) which was the property maintenance rental licensing to see if we need to do some additional word smithing to this. Councilman Peterson, were there specifics in here that needed some... 45 City Council Meeting - July 8, 2002 Councilman Peterson: Well I'll give my, and as I shared earlier. My big concern is it seems, as I read this, I read it as a fait d' acomplit that we're moving ahead with the code as it stands today, and my recollection, albeit maybe less than it should be, but I thought we were going to have another work session to discuss some more of the plan, spend more time on it and review the ordinance in more detail. So I find this kind of premature to that happening. This says we're going to do it and we're going to hire somebody and implement it by November 1 when we haven't even had this council vote on whether or not we're doing to do it or not. So it just seems, this seems premature. Mayor Jansen: So maybe we change the term implement, because what we're doing is we're refining it. We're, because it also has to come through the communication which is listed at the bottom, you know we're working in the community so maybe the goal isn't the implementation but it's the refinement, establishment of. Councilman Labatt: How about develop and propose property maintenance code... Mayor Jansen: Is that good? Councilman Peterson: Yeah. Councilman Labatt: Develop and propose to City Council? Councilman Peterson: Again I think as Todd and I talked today, these charge statements are really relatively new to us, and I think that they're a good idea under the right circumstances and I think this just goes a little bit too far in the assumption area. Mayor Jansen: That's where I think if we're giving clear direction through the charge statement to staff, then we're all on the same page as this moves forward, so I do appreciate your mentioning and bring this up. I think the results desired, again the advertise and hire might be premature. Councihnan Labatt: You can probably eliminate that bullet. Councilman Peterson: Well all of it can cascade past that if we all agree that that's, if we approve it and what we approve, then all those bullets below cascade below. I'm not concerned about that, and I don't want to word smith to death, I just want to at least go on record by saying that we as a council haven't approved this yet. Councihnan Boyle: So what you're saying, you in essence are requesting another work session on this, right? Councilman Peterson: Well I thought I already did that. Mayor Jansen: And we will be but we're also going to be taking the communication before we do that because we want more public input before we start going and doing any more analysis of it, so under the communication, they've got the work in the community to educate and explain. Communicate with the Chamber. It's got all the communication in here. By November, and it's saying that by November 1st under the time line, staff will develop a job description and process to implement the rental license and property maintenance, so at the time we' ve addressed any of the public input and done any of the revisions, they would then be prepared with the process as to how to move it forward. 46 City Council Meeting- July 8, 2002 Councilman Ayotte: Why not simply say...approval of the charge statement subsequent to the approval of the property maintenance rental licensing by council? So just put a contingent to our approval of licensing and we can go forward. Mayor Jansen: Well I'm gathering we're all fine with the change that we just made to the goal. Councilman Peterson: We're word smithing, let's go home. Councilman Labatt: Add a couple words and we're out of here. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So we're done. Recommendation. If I could have a motion please. Councilman Labatt: Move approval. Mayor Jansen: And a second? Councilman Peterson: Second. Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to approve the Charge Statement got Property Maintenance and Rental Housing Licensing as amended by council. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS. Mayor Jansen: Todd, anything else under administrative presentations? Todd Gerhardt: Library moves ahead. Footings are about 70 percent complete. You will see change orders on for your next City Council meeting. Everything else is going great. No problems. Mayor Jansen: Okay, terrific. If I could have a motion to adjourn. Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The City Council meeting was adjourned at 9:45 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 47 CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JULY 2, 2002 Vice Chairwoman Sidney called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: LuAnn Sidney, Rich Slagle, Uli Sacchet, Bruce Feik, Craig Claybaugh, and Steve Lillehaug MEMBERS ABSENT: Alison Blackowiak STAFF PRESENT: Bob Generous, Senior Planner; and Matt Saam, Assistant City Engineer CONSIDER THE REQUEST TO REZONE 68.76 ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED A-2~ AGRICULTURAL ESTATE TO PUD~ PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT, RSF~ RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND R-4~ RESIDENTIAl. MIXED USE, PRELIMINARY PLAT TO CREATE 46 SINGLE FAMILY HOMES~ 38 TWINHOMES AND 1.94 ACRES OF COMMERCIAL AND A WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT TO ALTER A WETLAND~ AND A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR ALTERATION IN THE BLUFF CREEK OVERLAY DISTRICT LOCATED ON THE NORTH SIDE OF HWY 5~ AND NORTHEAST OF CENTURY BOULEVARD~ VASSERMAN RIDGE. LUNDGREN BROTHERS CONSTRUCTION. Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item. Sidney: Okay, questions of staff. Sacchet: Yes, I have 2-3 quick questions. The changing to rambler. First of all, the designation on the plat says NGR. What's NG stand for? Mike Anderson: No grade. Sacchet: That sounds good to me, yeah. So that's good. The conservation easement. I saw you handed out a sample conservation easement. Basically conservation easement is not in place? I mean that's something that will be drafted between the developer and staff at a future time? Generous: Right, at the time of final plat approval we will work out all the description. What areas to be covered. Sacchet: So they can be specific what it actually covers and then the standard stuff of preserving the trees and natural setting and all that, okay. There is one thing that's a little bit confusing, in the table on page 8-9 of the staff report, you actually included Block 2, Lot 33 as custom graded and part of the preservation easement and I wonder wouldn't that lot benefit too, I mean it's not that heavily wooded but it does, I think it could benefit from custom grading as well. Is there a reason why it was not included? Generous: It was an omission and that's part of the revision I read in for the condition that it should be Lots 22 through 33. Sacchet: Oh you did include 33 in the revision? Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 Generous: Yes. Yes, because it was pointed out that that was inconsistent with the table that we provided for the compliance table. Sacchet: So it is, okay great. So that's been taken care of. Good. That's all my questions for right now, thank you. Feik: Just a few. Is there a sidewalk on Street D? I don't believe there is but just to be consistent. Mike Burton: No. Feik: Is there a sidewalk on Street B as in boy? Because it is shown on page 1 of 12 but it now shown on 7, 8 and 10. Generous: I don't believe so. The intent was for... Feik: So it's shown incorrectly on Sheet 19. Have you got a sidewalk...9. Sidney: Well we'll wait on to call, that's a question for the applicant. Feik: And then would you please discuss the change in assessments and fees? Saam: Yeah. You're referring to under the utility section in the staff report? Feik: Yes. Yes, exactly. Saam: Watermain and sewer assessments. Feik: It is the same number of lots, is it not? Saam: Yes. Yep. The only, the reason those were revised is because these assessments have been put on their tax rolls so they paid I believe one year's worth of them. The original numbers that were in the previous staff report were the total assessments before anything paid. So you'll see the new numbers have decreased slightly. That's because they' ve already been applied to this year's taxes. Feik: So this is the remaining due? Saam: Exactly. Feik: Thank you. That's it. Sidney: Any more questions? Claybaugh: No, I don't have any yet. Sidney: Okay. I guess I have one question for staff. In the land use and rezoning recommendation it' s contingent upon approval of the Met Council for the land use amendment. Can you explain a little bit for everybody's benefit why Met Council's involved. Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 Generous: The Met Council's involved because the city's proposing a change to our comprehensive plan. They've agreed to, well they've approved the city's existing comprehensive plan that guided all the property in the community, and any time you make a change, you have to submit that for their review. If it's less than 40 acres, it's considered administrative on their part. However, we do have to go through that process and we fill out this form and say what the change, potential impacts are to the proposed development. The good thing about this is we're doing the density is sufficient on the rest of the project that we're not losing out overall on what we projected for households in this area, so I believe that will go forward. Sidney: Could they stop a development if they wanted to? Generous: Theoretically but I don't, not on minor amendments. If it was a significant change that would affect our overall ability to meet our housing needs for example, it may be an issue. Sidney: And one other question too, I saw in my notes here. When Lundgren Brothers had a meeting with the neighbors, how does staff learn of any discussion or outcome of those meetings? Generous: Well it's generally informal. They sometimes they'll provide us with a letter documenting what happened. Other times it just in discussions with them what happened. Sometimes the property owners will come in and let us know. Really that's a private issue. We want them to be separate from the city in those instances. Sidney: Okay. Okay, so that is a part of our packet and normally isn't then. Generous: No. Sidney: Okay. Would the applicant like to come forward and please state your name and address for the record? Ken Adolf: Madam Chair, commission members. I'm Ken Adolf with Schoell and Madsen, Minnetonka. We're the consulting engineers for Lundgren Brothers Construction on this project. Also here this evening Mark Anderson and Mike Burton of Lundgren Brothers. First of all on the sidewalk issue, there are no sidewalks on either of the road side streets... To elaborate a bit on the area where the adjustments were made, and maybe you can zoom in on there a little bit just to see the color. This is the area where the significant changes were made in the proposed elevations and these two homes, this was a lookout that was changed to a rambler and this was a walkout that was changed to a rambler so that it reduced the grading in the rear yard area and then as Bob described, the street was raised up. The affect of that was that these lots were changed to no grade lots. The proposed home elevations where the grade elevations of the proposed homes match the existing ground very closely so that the tree preservation that's shown here is certainly possible. The area that's outlined in green is the area that would be, the wooded area that would be left in place after the initial site grading, and you can see it's curving out for the street in this area. What staff has asked that we include some areas going around each building and identify that also as trees that could possibly be removed and that's for the purpose of the reforestation calculation. So those trees are included in that calculation. At the last commission meeting the discussion seemed to focus on trees that were 30 inches in diameter or larger, and just following up with that, the trees that are color coded here are those that are 30 inches in diameter or larger. The orange trees are those that would be preserved after development and that would be after the home construction. And then the ones colored in yellow would be taken out either with the initial site grading or potentially with the home construction. There's also some larger trees over on the west side in the rear yard area, and counting all of those there's a total of 40 trees 30 inches and Planning Cornrnission Meeting - July 2, 2002 larger of which 21 are shown in the orange color that would be preserved. So that's kind of an overview of the changes that were made since the last plan. I'll be happy to address any questions. Sidney: Questions of the applicant? Sacchet: I have one question. Sidney: Yes. Sacchet: On Lot 33, as we're having that in the custom grade list that's presented by staff, would it be possible to draw the tree preservation line along the canopy area rather than cut into it. Do you see what I mean? It's a small change, but since it's, if it is a custom lot it would make sense to take that tree preservation down to the edge of the woods, wouldn't it? Ken Adolf: That could be done. You're talking about this... Sacchet: Yes. If it falls somewhat that canopy area and then swing around closer to the street, would that be doable and then as custom graded it would be accommodated for the construction at the time when a permit is pulled. Ken Adolf: That could be done, yes. Sacchet: Okay. That's my only question. Thank you. Sidney: Other questions? Claybaugh: Nothing new to add, no. Lillehaug: I have one quick one. Sidney: Sure. Lillehaug: For the record can you just confirm that by raising the elevation of the intersection of Streets A and C, that it doesn't increase or any wetland impacts on the west? Ken Adotf: Yes. This is on the west side of the street. This is the street that was raised up so these house pad elevations were raised up also by, the front was raised up by about 3 feet. The rear was raised up by about 2 feet. It went from 8 foot basements to 9 foot basements so there is not any filling as proposed in the rear yard like it is here and that's why these trees are being preserved. The proposed home elevation, the basement or the walkout, basement basically matches the existing ground on the back of the pad. A significant change from the previous plan was, the previous plan had a 20 foot or so fiat back yard area. In this case it just continues to slope off. Lillehaug: Thanks. Sidney: Any other questions? If not, thanks. Ken Adolf: Thank you. Planning Commission Meeting -July 2, 2002 Sidney: And even though this is old business, I'd like to open this up for a public hearing. Anyone that would like to address the Planning Commission on this issue, please come forward. Seeing none, I guess I'll close the public hearing. Comments, commissioners. I'm always looking left here. Let's look right first. Okay. Lillehaug: Just a quick one. I think the applicant and staff have addressed the concerns which tabled this item previously and I'm pleased with the grade and modifications made by the applicant. I'm willing to move forward and support this. Claybaugh: Yeah, I wasn't here at the last meeting but based on the meeting minutes that I read, the modifications would be sufficient to move forward with this petition. Feik: I've got no comments. Sacchet: Just a couple comments real quick. First of all I like to thank the applicant for really having made a very substantial effort addressing the concerns that we brought up at the last meeting. Depending how those significant trees are counted, or the original number by staff of 25 and obviously a couple more depending where you delineate it, but according to what I looked at, if we say it was 25, and depending which 25, it looks between 12 and 18 of those 25 will be saved but with this new proposal. And that's certainly very much in line with what we asked for at the last meeting. We said well we'd like to have something in the neighborhood of half of them preserved, so I want to thank you very much for having taken that to heart. Yeah, I would like to pick a little bit at the findings just to be more explicit. I mean Finding 5, for the preliminary plat. The proposed subdivision will not cause environmental damage subject to conditions. I would like to say will not cause excessive environmental damage. I mean considering all the changes, there's some environmental damage, but it's reasonable so it gets balanced within the framework. The same with condition 3 of the conditional use permit. This will not excessively change the essential character of the area. It will change it somewhat but not excessively. Obviously there' s a fair amount of grading and adjusting of the tree coverage. The same as in Finding 9. Will not result in the excessive destruction, loss or damage of natural scenic features. And with that I would also like to add condition 20, which we've already somewhat modified which now includes through Lot 33, Block 2. I'd like to add the element that the, what's that line called. The no cut tree line. The limit of initial site grading would be slightly moved south to follow the edge of the canopy as much as practical since that would also be a custom graded lot. And there are a few more editorials when we get to make a motion. That' s my comments for now. Thank yOU. Sidney: Okay. Any other, Rich anything? Slagle: No. Sidney: I guess we're pretty much set. I agree with my commissioners that, fellow commissioners that made good progress. I'm happy with staff and the applicant worked together and they saved more trees and we got the trail issue resolved to our satisfaction. Appreciate it. So I think we're ready for a motion. And it looks like there's 3 motions, is that correct Bob? Generous: Yes. 3, yeah. The rezoning and land use are... Sidney: Okay we need a motion for the land use and rezoning. Feik: You've got the changes. Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 Sacchet: There's no changes in the first one. Feik: I'll make a motion. The Planning Commission recommends approval of a comprehensive land use amendment from low density to commercial for the 1.94 acres of property and approve the ordinance for a planned unit development rezoning the property from agricultural estate, A~2 to mixed low density residential R-4, subject to the findings in the staff report and the following conditions 1 through 3. Sacchet: 1, 1, 2 and 3. Generous: We have a gremlin in our computer that keeps renumbering them. 1 through 4. Feik: 1 through 4. Sidney: Can I have a second? Slagle: Second. Feik moved, Slagle seconded that the Planning Commission recommends approval of a Comprehensive Land Use Amendment from low density to conunercial for 1.94 acres of property, and approve the ordinance for a Planned Unit Development rezoning property from Agricultural Estate, A2 to Mixed Low Density Residential R-4, subject to the findings in the staff report and the following conditions: 1. Approve design standards for the 1.94 acres of commercial and zoning for the PUD. 2. Conditions of the subdivision. 3. Conditions of Wetland and Conditional Use Permit. 4. Approval of the Metropolitan Council for the Land Use Amendment. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0. Sidney: We have a subdivision #2002-02 PUD recommendation. Sacchet: Yeah Madam Chair. I'd like to make the motion that the Planning Commission recommends approval of the preliminary plat for Vasserman Ridge including 84 residential lots, 1 commercial lot and 6 outlots as shown on plans dated June 24, 2002, and subject to the findings of the staff report and the following conditions, 1 through 48 with the following changes. Condition 7 talks about the silt fence. I'd like to add that the silt fence gets removed when construction is done. Condition 20 as modified already by staff, with the addition that the initial grading limit on Lot 33, Block 2 will be following the edge of the canopy as far as practical. And we cut out 21. That was cut out by the extension of 20. Then a condition number 31. I'd like to make that a little more assertive. Structures on Lots 11, 12 and 13 of Block 2 shall be designed, not should be designed. Shall be designed to accommodate decks or other accessory structures within the 60 by 70 building pad, or the lots shall, not should, be reconfigured to provide more flexibility. And similar picky thing on condition 46. The city shall accept the small upland portion of Outlot F in the northwest comer of the project as parkland dedication as all of Outlot F Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 is transferred into public ownership. Not assuming. We're not assuming here. This is clear situation so that's my motion. Sidney: Okay, and do we have a second? Feik: I'll second. Sacchet moved, Feik seconded that the Planning Commission recommends approval of preliminary plat for Vasserman Ridge, including 84 residential lots, I commercial lot, and 6 outlots as shown on plans dated June 24, 2002, and subject to the findings in the staff report and the following conditions: Detailed grading, drainage, tree removal and erosion control plans will be required for each lot at the time of building permit application for City review and approval. In addition, as-built surveys will be required on each lot prior to occupancy. , If importing or exporting material for development of the site is necessary, the applicant will be required to supply the City with detailed haul routes and traffic control plans. o Each of the ponds shall be designed to National Urban Runoff Program (NURP) standards. . The existing well and septic systems must be capped and/or removed in compliance with State health codes. 5. Staff will work with the engineer to correct the drainage calculations. . Prior to final platting, storm sewer design data will need to be submitted for staff review. Depending on the size of the drainage area, additional catch basins may be required at that time. The storm sewer will have to be designed for a 10 year, 24 hour storm event. Drainage and utility easements will need to be dedicated on the final plat over the public storm drainage system including ponds, drainage swales, emergency overflows, access routes for maintenance, and wetlands up to the 100 year flood level. The minimum easement width shall be 20 feet wide. Emergency overflows from all stormwater ponds will also be required on the construction plans. , Erosion control measures and site restoration shall be developed in accordance with the City' s Best Management Practice Handbook (BMPH). Staff recommends that the City' s Type III erosion control fence, which is a heavy duty silt fence be used for the area adjacent to the existing wetlands on the north, east and west grading limits of the site. Type II silt fence shall be used in all other areas. A rock construction entrance must be shown at the entrance drive that will be utilized during construction. In addition, wood- fiber blankets will be required on the steep slopes of the proposed berms and off the west side of the "D" street cul-de-sac. The silt fences shall be removed upon completion of construction. . Utility improvements will be required to be constructed in accordance with the City's latest edition of Standard Specifications and Detail Plates. Detailed construction plans and specifications will be required at time of final platting. Additional manholes and/or valves may be required at that time. The applicant will also be required to enter into a development contract with the City and supply the necessary financial security in the Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 . 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. form of a letter of credit or cash escrow to guarantee installation of the improvements and the conditions of final plat approval. Permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies will be required prior to construction, including but not limited to MPCA, Department of Health, MnDot, Watershed District, etc. The assessments for the BC-7/BC-8 project were based on the existing zoning for the site yielding a developed total of 68 units. Since the applicant is now proposing more units (84 + 3 units for the commercial lot) than what the property has been assessed for, the additional 19 units (87 - 68 = 19) will be charged a sanitary sewer lateral connection charge. The assessments for the Highway 5 project, based on existing zoning, yielded a developed total of 76 units. As above, since more units are now being proposed than what was assessed for (87 vs. 76), the additional 11 units will be charged a watermain lateral connection charge. The current 2002 lateral connection charge for sanitary or water is $4,335 per unit. Based on the current rate, the total amount due payable to the City for the additional 30 units would be $130,050 (30 @ $4,335). In addition, each newly created lot will be subject to City sanitary sewer and water hook-up charges are $1,383 per unit for sanitary sewer and $1,802 per unit for water. Hook-up charges are for core utility system infrastructure, i.e. wells, lift stations, water towers, etc. Connection fees are in lieu of assessments which were absorbed by the City instead of being levied at the time of construction. In this case, more units are proposed to be constructed than originally anticipated. The total remaining assessment due payable to the City for the BC-7/BC-8 Trunk Utility Project is $77,350 for sanitary sewer. The total remaining assessment due payable to the City for the Trunk Highway 5 project is $112,651 for watermain. Encroachment agreements will be required for the islands within the right-of-way. The applicant shall include a draintile system behind the curbs to convey sump pump' discharge from homes not adjacent to ponds. Areas with a street grade greater than 7% must be revised to meet the criteria. All plans must be signed by a registered engineer. Access to the commercial lot shall be via a shared driveway with the neighboring conm~ercial lot to the west. The access will be located just east of the median on West 78°~ Street. Move the pond outlet pipe for the pond in the southwest comer of the site from beneath the 20 foot berm. Applicant shall revise landscape plan to show a minimum of 365 trees to be planted. The developer shall be responsible for installing all landscape materials proposed in rear yard areas and buffer yards. Tree preservation fence shall be installed at the edge of the grading limits on Lots 29-34, Block 1 and Lots 22 -32, Block 2 prior to any construction. A conservation easement Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. 32. 33. shall be placed over said lots. The initial grading limit on Lot 33, Block 2 will follow the edge of the tree canopy as far as practical. All trees removed within the utility easement along the north side of the development shall be replaced 1:1. All of the proposed house pads must have a rear yard elevation at least three feet above the HWL of adjacent ponds. On the grading plan: a. Show the emergency overflow for the back yard areas of Block 1. b. Show the rear yard low points for the areas without a pond or wetland. c. Show the existing contour elevations for the neighboring property to the east a minimum of 100 feet outside of the site. d. Show all existing and proposed easements. e. Show the benchmark which was used for the site survey. Wetland replacement shall occur in a manner consistent with the Minnesota Wetland Conservation Act (MR 8420). The applicant shall submit a wetland alteration permit application. Prior to wetland impacts occurring, the applicant shall obtain City approval of a wetland replacement plan. A wetland buffer 0 to 20 feet in width (with a minimum average of 10 feet) shall be maintained around Basins 1, 3 and the wetland mitigation areas. A wetland buffer 10 to 30 feet in width (with a minimum average of 20 feet) shall be maintained around Basin 2. Wetland buffer areas shall be preserved, surveyed and staked in accordance with the City' s wetland ordinance. The applicant shall install wetland buffer edge signs, under the direction of city staff, before construction begins and shall pay the City $20 per sign. All structure shall maintain a 40 foot setback from the edge of the wetland buffer. All proposed trails and trail easements shall be located outside of the wetland buffer area. The grading and erosion control plan shall show the actual wetland buffer widths proposed to meet the minimum average buffer width requirements as well as the 40 foot wetland buffer setback. Structures on Lots 11, 12, and 13, Block 2 shall be designed to accommodate decks or other accessory structures within the 60 x 70 building pad or the lots shall be reconfigured to provide more flexibility. The proposed development shall maintain existing runoff rates. Storm water calculations shall be submitted to ensure the proposed storm water pond is sized adequately for the proposed development. On-site storm water ponding shall be sufficient to meet all City water quality and quantity standards. Drainage and utility easements shall be provided over all existing wetlands, wetland mitigation areas, buffer areas used as PVC and storm water ponds. Demolition permits must be obtained before demolishing any existing structures. Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 34. 35. 36. 37. 38. 39. 40. 41. 42. 43. 44. All on-site sewage treatment systems must be abandoned in accordance with City Code. Prior to permit submittals the developer shall meet with the Inspections Division to discuss the design and construction of the twinhomes. Final grading plans and soil reports must be submitted to the Inspections Division before building permits will be issued. A 10 foot clear space must be maintained around fire hydrants, i.e. street lamps, trees, bushes, shrubs, Qwest, Xcel Energy, cable TV and transformer boxes. This is to ensure that fire hydrants can be quickly located and safely operated by firefighters. Pursuant to Chanhassen City Ordinance 4/9-1. When fire protection, including fire apparatus access roads and water supplies for fire protection is required to be installed, such protection shall be installed and made serviceable prior to and during the time of construction. Pursuant to 1997 Minnesota Uniform Fire Code Section 901-3. In the cul-de-sacs with the center island "no parking" signs will be required. Contact Chanhassen City Fire marshal for additional information. No burning permits will be issued for trees to be removed. Trees or shrubs must be either removed from site or chipped. Submit street names to Chanhassen Building Official and Chanhassen Fire Marshal for review and approval. Submit cul-de-sac to Chanhassen City Engineer and Chanhassen Fire Marshal for review and approval. Additional fire hydrants will be required. One will be required at the intersection of "A" Street and "B" Street; one will be required between Lots 23 and 24, and an additional hydrant will be required at the intersection of "C" Street and West 78th Street Frontage Road. The applicant shall be required to build the "wetland" trail between Lots 18 and 19 and in the rear of Lots 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, and 25. This trail shall be 8 feet wide and constructed with bituminous pavement per city standard specifications. The trail shall be connected with the existing trail, which terminates at Lot 13 of The Meadows at Longacres. A permanent 20 foot wide trail easement shall be described by the applicant generally centered on the new trail and granted to the City to allow the maintenance and upkeep of this public trail. The applicant is eligible for reimbursement of the construction costs of said trail, including materials and labor, but excluding engineering, surveying, legal and all other associated costs. To be eligible for reimbursement from the city' s trail fund the applicant shall submit construction plans and specifications and construction costs to the City 45 or more days prior to the start of construction for review and authorization. Assuming authorization to proceed is received and upon completion of construction, the applicant shall be eligible for reimbursement. Said construction shall be covered by warranties equal to or exceeding industry standards. 10 Planning Commission Meeting -July 2, 2002 45. 46. 47. The City shall accept the small upland portion of Outlot F in the northwest corner of the project as parkland dedication as all of Outlot F is transferred into public ownership. The dollar amount of this credit will be calculated per City ordinance. All remaining park and trail fees shall be collected per City ordinance. All lots meet the standards of the R-4 zoning district. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0. Sidney: We have one more motion to make here for wetland alteration permit motion. Okay. Feik: I make a motion that the Planning Commission recommends approval of Wetland Alteration Permit for alteration and Conditional Use Permit for the development within the Bluff Creek Overlay District as shown on plans dated June 24, 2002 and subject to the findings in the staff report and the following conditions 1 through 11. Sidney: Second? Sacchet: Second, and I'd like to also state on condition 10, that the silt fence will be removed after construction. Sidney: Do you accept that? Feik: Accepted. Feik moved, Sacchet seconded that the Planning Commission recommends approval of Wetland Alteration Permit for alteration and Conditional Use Permit for the development within the Bluff Creek Overlay District as shown on plans dated June 24, 2002 and subject to the findings in the staff report and the following conditions: . . The applicant shall install a bridge over the swale between Basins 1 and 3 to avoid wetland impacts and enhance the aesthetics of this area. . Wetland replacement shall occur in a manner consistent with the Minnesota Wetland Conservation Act (MR 8420). The applicant shall submit a wetland alteration permit application. Prior to wetland impacts occurring, the applicant shall obtain City approval of a wetland replacement plan. A 5 year wetland replacement monitoring plan shall be submitted. The plans shall show fixed photo monitoring points for the replacement wetlands. The applicant shall provide proof of recording of a Declaration of Restrictions and Covenants for Replacement Wetland. A wetland buffer 0 to 20 feet in width (with a minimum average of 10 feet) shall be maintained around Basins 1, 3 and the wetland mitigation areas. A wetland buffer 10 to 30 feet in width (with a minimum average of 20 feet) shall be maintained around Basin 2. (Those buffers considered for Public Value Credit (PVC) under the Wetland Conservation Act (WCA) shall maintain a minimum width of 16.5 feet.) 11 Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 . , , Wetland buffer areas shall be preserved, surveyed and staked in accordance with the City's wetland ordinance. The applicant shall install wetland buffer edge signs, under the direction of city staff, before construction begins and shall pay the City $20 per sign. All proposed trails and trail easements shall be located outside of the wetland buffer area. The grading and erosion control plan shall show the actual wetland buffer widths proposed to meet the minimum average buffer width requirements as well as the 40 foot wetland buffer setback. . 10. Drainage and utility easements shall be provided over all existing wetlands, wetland mitigation areas, buffer areas used as PVC and storm water ponds. Type ili silt fence shall be provided adjacent to all wetland fill areas, areas to be preserved as buffer or if no buffer is to be preserved, at the delineated wetland edge. Any disturbed wetland areas shall be reseeded with MnDot seed mix 25A, or a similar seed mix that is approved for wetland soil conditions. All upland areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored with seed and disc-mulched, covered with a wood fiber blanket or sodded within two weeks of completion of each activity in accordance with the City's Best Management Practice Handbook. The silt fences shall be removed upon completion of construction. 11. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies (e.g. Riley-Purgatory-Bluff Creek Watershed District, Army Corps of Engineers) and comply with their conditions of approval. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0. PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR DEVELOPMENT WITHIN THE BLUFF CREEK OVERLAY DISTRICT, A 20 FOOT VARIANCE FROM THE 40 FOOT SHORELAND PRIMARY ZONE SETBACK AND A 20 FOOT VARIANCE FROM THE 40 FOOT STANDARD WETLAND SETBACK FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A SWIMMING POOL AND RETAINING WALL ON PROPERTY ZONED PUD-R AND LOCATED AT 7525 BENT BOW TRAIL~ STEVEN M. COHOON. Sidney: Before we get started and have a staff report for this item, I'd like to make a few suggestions for those planning to speak and for the Planning Commission. First, I want to keep the discussion, which includes, well the discussion focused on the contents of the application tonight. And secondly, I'd like to remove the discussion about the wetland delineation and subsequent appeal from our discussion because that isn't within our scope of responsibilities and currently this subject is before the Board of Water and Soil Resources so really it's what we have before us tonight that we should address. Staff report please. Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item. Sidney: Any questions of staff? I keep looking left. I'll look right this time. Lillehaug: I do have a question. If you could look at this drawing here that was included in the packet. 12 Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 Sidney: Which page is that? Lillehaug: I'm not too sure. Feik: This one? Lillehaug: That's the one. It shows previous to any construction I think the edge of the pre- existing wetland and the drainage and utility easement and the conservation easement. And my question is regarding the drainage and utility easement and conservation easement. First of all the drainage and utility easement. Is there any city utilities in that easement or proposed utilities in that easement where it would be required for the city to maintain that easement there? Generous: There are no utilities. It's just a drainage easement. Lillehaug: Okay. And then as far as the conservation easement goes, was this a conservation easement based on the old edge, the old delineation of the wetland? And this conservation easement, was it part of the development? Generous: It was part of the original planned unit development, yes. Lillehaug: Okay, thank you. Sidney: Any other questions? Claybaugh: Yeah Bob, I had a couple questions. On page 4, under proposal summary. Last paragraph in the staff report states that however the Meadows at Longacres 2nd and 3rd Additions received a blanket 10 foot variance from 30 foot front yard setbacks. What were they trying to accomplish with that? Generous: Well the newest part of the Longacres development there were significant environmental features. Trees and wetlands in the rear yards of a lot of these properties and the way to relieve that would be to allow the houses closer to the fight-of-way so that they would have sufficient area to build in. Claybaugh: Okay. But this particular property is built, I believe they're deeper on their setback? Generous: Yes. Claybaugh: I think I saw some with 34 feet but there isn't any significant canopy coverage or tree coverage in that back of that? Generous: Not normally in the back yard, no. Claybaugh: Alright. Then on page 5 under the wetland's heading. It said on the paragraph, the construction of the public trail by Lundgren Brothers in the mid 1990's filled a portion of the wetland of this property and virtually eliminated the wetland buffer. So there was some, the wetlands behind the property were altered as I interpret that at this time? Generous: Yes. 13 Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 Claybaugh: Okay. And obviously there is no buffer in place. I was looking for something with respect to the elevation and the overall width of the proposed berm. Is there something you could point out for me? Generous: I I believe it' s those details don't know that they've come up with an elevation for that. They're looking at two, two feet. So when that would be determined as long as we go forward we get all worked out. Claybaugh: Okay, but that was significant to me because of the proximity of the trail to the proposed pool. Based on the height of that berm, a required fence around that pool, those were areas of interest so if I understand you correctly, nothing's been set forth at this stage? Generous: Not yet. The pool I believe would be, the edge of it would be higher because it'd be within the wall area. They haven't got that elevation. Claybaugh: That's all the questions I have. Sidney: Okay. Feik: No questions for staff. Sacchet: One quick question. The property to the east has a swimming pool. That swimming pool is alright with all the setbacks and the permits and easements and what have you? Generous: The wetland and the Bluff Creek corridor fall away from that property. It goes towards the southeast as it extends to the east. So yes, they' ve met the setback. Sacchet: Okay. So they met all the requirements for that one, okay. That's my question. Sidney' Okay. Artd I don't have any questions for staff at this point. So would the applicant like to come forward and please state your name and address for the record. Steven Cohoon: Steven Cohoon, 7525 Bent Bow Trail. Thank you for the opportunity. Good evening. I wanted to first note that we do have a petition signed by 14 of our neighbors in support of the situation, and I know we don't want to get into specific discussions of the delineation but I do want to show a couple graphics because it's important to the issue of whether it's really a 20 foot variance or something less than that. The extent. I'd like you all to understand the extent of the issue. So first thing, kind of a background. This is overall lot survey. It shows the location of the adjacent properties. The houses and all of the, talk about that with regard to the setback because setback was determined somewhat by those properties. And of course as you've noted, the wetlands delineation of record actually goes north of the trail and we're in agreement with city staff that that's an error. The wetland's boundary is somewhere south of the trail. We've had a lot of good staff interaction. We really appreciate the support of staff. Bob in particular has been very, very helpful. We have gone through a process and as Madam Chairman indicated, there is a delineation issue. We're pursuing that recommendation of the staff as well. This variance was recommended to us by the staff as an interim action. So a little bit here, if we, yeah there we go. Just to say to look at the property. I know at least 4 of you were able to come see the property, and I appreciate you taking the time to do that. So this is depiction. You have the path. It's actually about 7 feet between the path and the retaining wall. The path is approximately 9 feet at that stage and then the actual edge of the mowed portion is about 25 feet from the retaining wall. These indicate sites that we're monitoring for hydrology. 14 Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 In the report them was a reference to Chip Hentges of Carver County and his delineation. You see that is somewhere between these two points. Between 31 feet and 48 feet from the proposed retaining wall. There was a question about a neighboring pool and since some of you I think everybody who available or able to see, this is a picture of the site of the neighboring pool. You see the topography here. This is actually the rear of 7525 and you see the 'topography as it goes eastward to the property at 7517 where the neighbor's pool is. And it's very similar topography there. In terms of actual location, the neighboring pool here again is in similar proximity to the path, and in the judgment of the City Water Resources Coordinator, the wetlands borders the fill of the path. So it appears to us frankly that that pool is in the same proximity to the wetlands. One, there was a question about the retaining wall and the intent of fencing. The intent of fencing is around or at the top of the retaining wall so it won't, the berms will be independent of the fencing around the pool. The intent isn't to fence the whole yard just the raised portion... One thing I would like to point out though in choice here of our neighbors to use a berm instead of a retaining wall, it gives them a little more potentially distance from the wetlands for construction but it provides some intrusion into the path easement which we wanted to avoid. We didn't want to have a berm that intruded into the path easement itself. Now the question of the setback is an interesting one. I tried to depict the house at the minimum setback in this drawing here, so basically there's a, I just copied the house outline and moved it forward. You can actually see the original rear portion of the house so this is actually a duplication of that here, but when you move it forward to the minimum setback, we have violated the side setbacks. In fact the house is situated the forward most position it can be and maintain the 10 foot side setbacks on each side. That was one of the concerns that we had when we sited the house. The other concern we had was that the other two houses were already staked and under construction when this house was sited, and you can see as you move the house forward, you actually violate their line of sight significantly. This neighbor's dining and family room is on this side of their house, and same thing on this side of the house, so they would have a real nice viewpoint of our sides of our house which we didn't think they'd appreciate. Now in terms of actual size of the house, because that certainly can be raised as an issue of how big is the house relative to the lot. Three houses, comparison here the 3 houses. One at 7525, the one in question is kind of in the mid-range of width. The one actually to the west is about 6 feet wider. Depth is relatively comparable. We've got this house is a little bit deeper than the other two but they're all in about the 50 foot range. The other feature of the lot that influences the pool location is the slope of the back yard. And unfortunately with the house where it is, the slope really drives the pool to the position where we proposed it. It' s, there' s not enough pad at the back of the house, even if we were to push the house say 10 feet further forward, we wouldn't have sufficient pad and a safe access area around the pool. So that's what led us to the pool positioning and the house positioning where it is. So the key features that influenced the positioning of the house were one, the wedge shaped lot itself. And the slope of the back lot. Well...as part of the topography of the lot. There was one issue in the report about trees showing...back on trees. I know several of you viewed the lot so there's very little impact. There is actually one tree that we planted in the, within the original small retaining wall. Our intent is to move that if the tree is not saved. We want to and intend to replace that tree. In fact within the proposed buffer strip we want to plant more trees. So I think we answered the question about the fencing. Any other questions? Sidney: I guess, any other comments? I guess not. Questions of the applicant? Claybaugh: I'll address a question with respect to the berm. I'm assuming that you're going to match the height of the retaining wall. Grade that back towards the trail. My concern was, it was just approximately 5 to 7 feet and depending on evidently who's doing the measuring inbetween there. How far out that berm was going to go and the retaining wall that was in place. 15 Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 Steven Cohoon: What our intent is, I'm not sure I understand the question but maybe I can feel my way towards the answer. The intent of the, we're going to grade the apron around the pool so as to not to drain on the north side, that is the long side of the... So we want to grade the apron first so that any water on, from the pool or rain water would drain naturally into the lawn area. Then these actually would come right up to the sides of the retaining wall so there'd be no gap, if that was the question. Claybaugh: Yeah, that does answer the question. And as far as the maintenance drainage of the pool, I understand for incidental rainfall and such that you' ve got the pool apron graded to go back into the yard for planting. Is there a place for maintenance drainage of the pool? What would that be? Steven Cohoon: Actually the buffer strips will improve the current drainage situation because there' s a considerable amount of potentially everything from about this line back drains to the back of the property so it's going to help with a lot normal rainfall. Claybaugh: In terms of the maintenance drainage for the pool though, when you drain the entire pool seasonally. Steven Cohoon: Well there is not completely drained seasonally. Claybaugh: Okay, you don't drain it for late fall, winter? Steven Cohoon: No. Claybaugh: It's all heated, okay. Alright. That's all the questions. Steven Cohoon: If we even have to do that, we'll arrange to have it pumped. Sidney: Anyone else? Claybaugh: I do have one more question. You highlighted the fact, and it was pretty evident in viewing the site that there is quite a grade coming down there where you' ve got the buffer strip shown on here proposed say to the west side of the pool, I believe that's correct. How are you looking at handling that drainage if it's not following it's natural course at this stage? Steven Cohoon: You mean this side here? Claybaugh: Right, on the west side of the property. Steven Cohoon: There's a very, there's a steep hill. The intent here, and the discussion I've had with our neighbor is, to plan this buffer strip. They have a natural kind of area here. So blend this buffer strip and have the buffer strip be similar, natural plantings and the two of them together would filter and contain the runoff. Claybaugh: Maybe it's a question for engineering. Would that be interrupted with the buffer strip there Matt? Is there any need for any drainage calculations in there? Saam: I don't believe we'll be requiring drainage calculations but I think the point you're trying to make is, if you put this berm in and all the water. 16 Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 Claybaugh: Where you going to put the drainage? The existing drainage that's in place, you're changing that natural, the course of that drainage. Basically containing that. Is there any need for any drainage calculations for that? Saam: No, I don't see any. Claybaugh: Okay. That's all the questions I have. Sidney: Okay. Just one comment. I was wondering, you mentioned you have a petition from the neighbors. Has staff gotten a copy of that and, now they do. Very good. And that can be included in the packet for City Council. Okay, one last chance here? Okay, thank you very much. Steven Cohoon: Thank you. Sidney: Okay, this is a public hearing. Anyone wishing to address the Planning Commission on this issue? And I see nobody except the applicants out there in the audience, so I will close the public hearing. Commissioners. Who would like to tackle this one first please? Well we're looking left this time. Slagle: No comments. Sacchet: I don't have much comment to this one. I have to emphasize that we have to deal with the data in fi'ont of us and on that basis 20 foot variance out of a 40 foot is a huge variance. And I basically agree with the staff report in terms of the hardship and the self created part so I don't think we are in a position, I'm not in a position to approve this based on the data in front of us. But then on the other hand, if what the applicant showed us with the wetland delineation they may possibly, you may not possibly even need a variance once that goes through but based on the data in fi'ont of us, it's clear the other way around. That's my comment. Sidney: Okay, Bruce. Feik: I would not be able to support the variance. The absence of a pool is not in my mind a hardship. The pool could have been located more northward had the retaining walls not been installed prior. The pool apron on the south side could be minimized reducing the variance as well. And the pool also could be made narrower. Given what is in front of us, to approve or not to approve so to speak, I'm not of the opinion that I can support the variance. Claybaugh: Like my fellow commissioners I'd like to reiterate we need to look at the petition in the context of the current delineation. I understand that that's in dispute and that needs to run it's course. With respect to the neighbor's pool and positioning, based on the information that I've been given, they have maintained the wetland and buffer setbacks which the current petition in front of us is not able to do. And with that I again have no compelling reason to approve the variances in their current form. Lillehaug: I agree with staff and fellow commissioners also. I think that approving this variance as the lines and boundaries fall, currently fall, that it definitely would set a precedence for the entire Bluff Creek Overlay District and I guess I'm not willing to support it. These wetland boundaries are set by the local governing unit which is the City of Chanhassen, and they are the determining entity of that wetland boundary and as they currently have it, it does require a large 17 Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 setback, too large. It' s 20 foot out of 40 foot. That' s just too much in my mind so I do not support it. Sidney: Okay, thank you. 'Yeah, I agree with the comments that have been made by my fellow commissioners. I do support staff s interpretation of the ordinances and agree that we, well I feel that I would support approval of the conditional use permit. However, the variance as stated, we're talking about a 20 foot variance from the 40 foot setback from, for the Bluff Creek Overlay District primary zone and that is a significant variance. And as stated by other commissioners, I don't feel that we have really seen in this application a demonstration of hardship. The applicant does have reasonable use of the property without the need for a variance so I can see where if the delineation has changed as a result of their appeal to the Board of Water and Soil Resources, we might see this back again and we could reconsider it but what's in front of us, I guess I can't really support the variances as stated. So, any othercomments? Otherwise... Slagle: I'm going to have to take I think a different approach to this one. I think my fellow commissioners you were absolutely correct that a 20 foot variance is huge. My biggest issue on this one is the home to the east. And while it does fit technically to the requirements, I think as you look at both properties, they're basically in line and when I look at the property to the south of the trail, which I was out there today, it is not much different. And so in respect t could see, I mean I could see exactly where you're all coming from and certainly honor that opinion but I think in this situation I'm going to have to say that I would approve the variance request just because of the next door neighbor' s property. And I know it' s a little deviation from what we're used to doing but I'm going to have to do that I think. That's where I'm at. Sidney: Okay. I guess we're ready for a motion. This will be for the conditional use permit please. Lillehaug: Madam Chair, I make a motion the Planning Commission recommends approval of the Conditional Use Permit #2002-2 to allow construction within the secondary zone of Bluff Creek Overlay District in a PUD-R District for a pool and retaining wall subject to the following conditions 1 through 2. Sidney: Okay, a second? Feik: I'll second. Lillehaug moved, Feik seconded that the Planning Commission recommends approval of Conditional Use Permit g2002-2 to allow construction within the Secondary Zone of Bluff Creek Overlay District in a PUD-R District for a pool and retaining wall, subject to the following conditions: 1. The pool and retaining wall shall maintain a 20 foot setback from the wetland. 2. All disturbed areas shall be revegetated with a combination of the native vegetation listed in the Maple-Basswood Forest community of Appendix C of the Bluff Creek Natural Resources Management Plan ("Bluff Creek Environmental Corridor Common Plant Species of Natural Communities"). All voted in favor, except Slagle who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1. 18 Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 Sacchet: Point of clarification. We approved the version that asked to maintain a 40 foot setback, correct? Sidney: That's correct. .: ! Slagle: Mind if I ask for clarification? So you're saying this approval for the conditional use permit requires a 40 foot setback? And the variances are suggesting is a 20 foot. Sacchet: Right. Slagle: So I'm going to vote nay. Sidney: Okay, so we have a 5-1. Okay. So this will go forward to City Council. Well excuse me, yes. Slagle: We need to vote on the variance. Sidney: Oh I'm sorry. I'm getting all confused here. Okay. Claybaugh. Make a motion? Sidney: Make a motion. Claybaugh: Make a motion that the Planning Commission recommends denial of Variance #2002-7 for a 20 foot variance from the 40 foot Bluff Creek Overlay District Primary Zone setback and a 20 foot variance from the 40 foot wetland setback for the construction of a swimming pool and retaining wall based on the findings of the staff report. Sidney: Okay, second? Feik: I'll second. Claybaugh moved, Feik seconded that the Planning Commission recommends denial of Variance #2002-7 for a 20 foot variance from the 40 foot Bluff Creek Overlay District Primary Zone setback and a 20 foot variance from the 40 foot wetland setback for the construction of a swimming pool and retaining wall based on the findings of the staff report. All voted in favor, except for Slagle who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1. Sidney: Okay, another 5-1 here. This will go forward to City Council at some point. Generous: July 22nd. Sidney: July 22nd, and just a comment to the applicants. Appreciate your working with staff and I think the whole thing is really hinging on the delineation issue at this point and certainly the question about the neighboring lot and how that fits in too, so good luck with City Council. Thanks. 19 Planning Commission Meeting - July 2, 2002 APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Bruce Feik noted the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated June 18, 2002 as presented. Vice Chairwoman Sidney adjourned the Planning Commission meeting at 8:05 p.m. Submitted by Kate Aanenson Community Development Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 20 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JUNE 25, 2002 Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Jack Spizale, Amy o'shea, Glenn Stolar, and Paula Atkins ~MEMBERS ABSENT: Tom Kelly and Dave Happe STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry RUegemer, Recreation Superintendent; Susan Marek, Recreation Center Manager; Kara Wickenhauser, Senior center Coordinator; and Dale Gregory, Parks Superintendent. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Jerry Ruegemer asked that Greg Blaufuss was present to talk to the commission regarding a Frank Scott Memorial. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: Hoffman: City Council awarded the 2002 trail connector project last evening. Amy was present so the only outstanding aspect of that project is the acquisition of the Limited Use Permit, or the LUP from MnDot, so I' 11 be meeting with them over the next few days and finalizing the details. MnDot has a very rigid set of specifications for installing improvements within their right-of- way. They are flexible and so those are the points that we'll be talking about. Such things as they only want 10 foot trails. This is an 8 foot trail. They have some surface water runoff issues and curbing issues. Clearance issues so we'll be meeting with MnDot on all those items and then lining up the contractor and getting him going, probably within the next 30 days. Franks: Great. Wonderful. Hoffman: They also approved the RFI and that will be mailed the first part of next week to all those potential partners for a future community center in Chanhassen. Franks: And about how many partners are you, potential partners are you mailing to? Hoffman: There's a list of probably just under 20. 17 or so. Franks: Thank you Todd. Any other announcements? VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Greg Blaufuss: I'm Greg Blaufuss, 7116 Utica Lane in Chanhassen. I've been a resident for 16 years. I'm here tonight, as Jerry alluded to, to make an informal proposal or something that would maybe spur some action on behalf of the kids in the community and the sports organizations to ask for some type of something, I don't have specifics, but something that would memorialize the volunteer efforts of Frank Scott. I'm going to ask now, the teacher in me asks, raise your hand if you didn't know Frank Scott. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: You know I think what might be helpful Greg, if you're willing to take some time just to give a little. Greg Blaufuss: I'd gladly do that. I didn't want to, I don't want to take too much of your time but I'll just try. to summarize Frank's volunteer efforts in the community. He came here about 10 years ago. I' 11 use quite a few about's because I don't have the exact dates but, as a grandfather, was a grandfather at the time and volunteered immediately came to the CAA to volunteer as a, anything he could do. I think he wanted the President's job actually. So one of the guys remembered today as we were talking about some other stuff, and we told him that it was probably a good idea to start a little bit lower because the President's job was a handful at the time, and is even more so now but so he took, I think he settled on a director of athletics or something for the CAA. But was more than a board member. I mean he was a volunteer through and through. He looked to do hands on things. Things that would benefit the players and the kids and did a good job at it. I have some notes here, I guess I'll use my cheaters. Yeah, hands on volunteer. Like I said, he started about 10 years ago. We lost him to cancer. The community lost him to cancer about 2 years ago if I'm not mistaken. And in that time he started with the CAA and he moved onto the Chan/Chaska Soccer Club and worked for us, or volunteered for us. During the course of his volunteerism in the community, and mostly with the sports groups, he, we decided because our conscience kind of bothered us at the CAA level, we decided to offer him some, just a pittance. I mean something to, for gas money or something because he was easily working 40 hours a week for the club at the time. And that's the way that he came to us, the form that he came to us at the Chan/Chaska Soccer Club as well. He also was involved with the volunteer, or I'm sorry, the Victoria groups, athletic groups just before he passed away and was officed out of a building that they recently bought. So between those three sports groups he did a lot for the community. In addition he was mostly interested in helping the kids and moving things forward that would benefit the kids, but in addition to that he had a seat here for a while I think. It didn't serve the purpose that he thought, he originally intended it would. That being to serve the kids or to make headway on things that would benefit the kids. He, I saw him when I voted. I saw him when we'd come up here to park cars. He'd be directing traffic. He was all over the community. So the reason I'm here tonight, and the reason that this has been kind of on my to do list for a while, is that I think he' s a good, he's an excellent role model for people who would like to volunteer with all of these guys. I've invited past presidents and other sports members of the community to come for support but as we all know it's more and more difficult to find volunteers these days, and especially the caliber of Frank who most of the years that he volunteered for us did not have a player or even a grandson participating in the sports. So I'm thinking, you know I said I don't have specifics in mind when it comes to what I'm looking for but I'd like something, not just to name a building after him or something but something that would remind people of what he did for the community and hopefully spur other people on to do that same thing. I was fortunate enough to meet Frank at the first meeting he was at when he wanted to be the president right off the bat, and it was about 2 weeks before he passed away that I was in my last meeting with him and inbetween I worked with him in various capacities. A couple presidencies and all of that so I know him quite well. But more importantly I'm looking to, for this community rather. Not I, but I think the community should be looking to Set this as an example for other senior citizens and members of the community that would like to, or haven't thought about volunteering. And on those lines I thank you for your time that you spend here. Franks: Thanks Greg. Todd, is there anything more you'd like to add? Hoffman: If there' s anyone else that would like to share some thoughts of Frank. He was a special man in the community and he served on this commission so if anyone else would like to talk. The city at the time of Frank's death contributed $500 to the Frank Scott Memorial Fund so that was done immediately following his death. And there was a lot of talk at that time about Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 some sort of memorial because Frank was probably, had the largest impact, or he spent just the hardest working volunteer for youth sports that I've seen in my time here. In terms of the time that he contributed to the city so there was a lot of discussion at that time, but there's no criteria currently that the City Council has for memorials and so we have nothing to base it on. It's something the community should be talking about so I'm glad that Greg came in and if anyone else. Franks: Well you know, I think I'm the only sitting commissioner right now that was actually here on the commission when Frank was active, and so if there are any of the rest of you would like to come up and just let everybody else know about Frank, I think it'd be really appreciated. Joe Scott: I'm Joe Scott, 7091 Pimlico Lane in Chanhassen. I'm not related to Frank and I guess I wish I was, but my work with him involved, I'm currently the president of the Chan/Chaska Soccer Club and I got to know Frank through that organization and that was, the thing that really amazed me about him was that most people who would volunteer to a youth sports organization have a kid in it. So it's like I'm the president as I mentioned. My d ' aughter s in the club. Is it selfish? Yeah. Maybe not, but he didn't have anybody in any of these organizations. He did have one grandson for a couple of years. I mean but he was totally into it. He could always be counted on to do stuff, and as Greg mentioned, you just, he was like one of these people. You would see him at, it appeared anyway, at every youth sporting event. He'd be there watching. He'd be there directing traffic. Concessions and so forth, and he was so beyond what you would normally expect from a volunteer. And I know at our school district level, volunteerism is one of the seven things that we really want our kids to consider. And this might be kind of a fitting way to do this, and if there's any sort of memorial, I think it's important that not only do you have the person's name, but volunteer or something like this so people know that this person was a volunteer and this is the length to which we as a community go to make sure people understand who these folks are. So that, those are basically the extent of my comments. Thanks. Franks: Thank you. Greg Hromatka: Good evening. My name's Greg Hromatka, 7580 Canyon Curve, and I moved here in '90 and got involved with the CAA a year or two after that. When my oldest daughter hit about 5-6 years old, and met Frank early and the spirit of volunteerism with Frank can be epitomized by, you have jobs to do and you know you're begging people to come and do whatever, and Frank would show up with the hard hat. And that was it. I mean he was always there and I can't say enough about him. It would just echo on but we could go all night with it, what he said. Thank you. Franks' Well we like to hear from everybody so. There's always time on this commission for that. Jack Jensen: I'd feel left out ifI didn't say something. I'm Jack Jensen at 8480 Pelican Court. I'm the current president of Chanhassen Athletic Association, CAA which they alluded to. Frank, I mean I was also at the first meeting Frank was at. I was the president that was stepping out at the time and I came back. But yeah, what's that? Ruegemer: Quit having kids... Jack Jensen: I know, geez. But it was, Frank was, I mean I see now what Frank meant to our group of the CAA. I know he helped out with the Chan/Chaska Soccer Club and the Victoria group too and his daughter helped out fight after his passing and when he had gotten sick and it Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 was just so much that he had done that our volunteers almost, you know I don't know if they, you know they appreciated everything that he did and he did more than what was asked of him. He was like they alluded to before, he was always at everything. I mean even things with the city. He'd go up to the Easter Egg Hunt, that type of thing. I mean he was, you'd see him everywhere you know I mean, and I think he's, if he' s, I think he's a Chan resident that lived in Shorewood right on the, I think his water bill ended up being our' s so that' s why he was one of us. So it was, and he did have some grandkids in the area. But that's not, he just wanted to keep going after he retired from his job and he wanted to help and give back to the community and he saw that it was a need to help us here and we appreciated the help. We needed the help. And he almost just like almost single handedly took things in his own hands and make them work. You know if the plans were each of the different committees, whether it be soccer, baseball, softball. I mean he just took things to the end and just helped the board out. Myself and I know that Greg was on the board. Joe's been on the board. Greg's been on the board, so it's just so much help that he's just dearly missed in our organization and just a sweet, sweet person. So, and with the other communities, I mean he'd always stand up for what we needed. If we needed fields in different communities, he'd always be there for us to make sure that, you know he was at the meetings for all these different communities. You know being the president I know there's just every conzmunity has different meetings in baseball, softball, soccer, I mean you're just going all over the place for the meetings and he was at all of them and just spent so much time doing it and I think it would be just a great honor if we somehow just remembered him in something that, like was also said that you know that the kids and the seniors and the people could see that, how much he meant to us and boy, he's dearly missed. That's all. Franks: Thank. I'd like to bring this back to the commission, if there's any comments. Spizale: He sounds like a fantastic person. I wish I would have known him. There's no precedent of doing something like this before, right? Hoffman: There's memorials. It's been more private basis for private residents have been made in the community. Benches, trees, those type of things. There are streets, parks that are named after individuals. That type of thing, but not in recent history has a memorial. Spizale: Dave Huffman. Hoffman: Yeah, Dave Huffman. There's a plaque at Bandimere Park. He was a commissioner that served on the Park and Rec Commissioner would probably be the most recent, public figure that's received a memorial on behalf of his family and... Spizale: I would see something sports related, if they're to do something like that, it sounds like it'd be a right venue. Franks: Amy. O'Shea: Yeah, I think it would be excellent if we could do something to recognize that. To also help promote recruiting fabulous volunteers, to use it as that outlet too. I think when we do this, and maybe this is a time to do it is, that we need some criteria because then when someone else comes that feels that they were an excellent volunteer, we need to have something that we're able to format it and fit other people into that I think is important too because there might be, there's a question of why we turn someone else down and why did we accept Frank Scott. But I think we should look at this and try to brainstorm later to come up with some ideas. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: Is that it? O'Shea: That's the best... Franks: Alrighty. Yeah, just a couple questions. I came on right as Frank was leaving and then it's like he didn't leave. He was almost every Tuesday commission meeting, there was some kind of issue or he was just going to sit up here and listen and make sure we did it fight. Sit out in the audience so he was sure committed. One of the things, questions that I have though from you all, either from the CAA or the Chan/Chaska Soccer, is have you considered developing your own like volunteer award within your own, within the athletic organizations? I guess what I'm wondering, are you looking, because you mentioned volunteerism and really focusing on volunteerism, and I had thought about that prior to that being mentioned. My thought up until that had been okay, looking at some kind of physical field or you know some kind of recreation amenity, memorializing that way but when you mentioned volunteerism, that sounds like something more active. Greg Blaufuss: Yeah, it's probably a good idea to have something like that on an ongoing basis too, to encourage volunteers to step forward and do their best...good idea, and I haven't ever been involved in a discussion...but there's a small audience. I thought city wide going to recognize his efforts and number two, to encourage others to do the same. And i£you're wanting to do it with, like I say, a small audience within 1,500 families, it's a one shot and it's gone and they move out... What I'm thinking is something where...the Dave Huffman plaque that remeinbers I think that mentions his volunteering in Boy Scouts. So yeah, a good idea. The plaque should be probably brought up...recognize volunteers from here on out and maybe even the past, but... Franks: Okay, so you're thinking for the city to take a look at this, or this commission to really look at something physical in nature, either a plaque or a naming a field or naming a building or something. That's what you're really. Greg Blaufuss: Yeah, and you know, to roll it in maybe with something else...put in a project or in the future. Maybe just a park, idea that she mentioned other volunteers. Maybe we start something that we could just keep adding volunteers of this caliber to and have a tradition, encourage people to do... Hoffman: One thing along those lines would be a large wall plaque in the recreation center named the Frank Scott Volunteerism Memorial. Maybe put Frank at the top and then we lay down a criteria for future nominations for that and then those are submitted to the city over time and other people aspire to fill that same level and their name, based on that criteria. That's one. Franks: Would it be too difficult to kind of combine the two approaches? One is for the city to actually house and maintain the plaque and you know put up the new plaques, but really have the Athletic Associations make the nominations and the decisions about their recipient of the award. Does that get too complicated? Stolar: Well I don't think, I think if we set up a criteria that we would look to you to provide us with the names but I wouldn't limit it to just them. We would have other opportunities but if we established a criteria, then I think anybody can submit them but the concern I would have, I agree with your idea. I like that idea. I just want to make sure we have a good flow of people so that doesn't have one name and all these blank names. I think we should work hard together to make sure we maintain, because again it's to promote volunteerism. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: Volunteerism in general or are we thinking volunteerism for our youth athletics? Stolar: I was thinking for community athletics. I wouldn't just limit it to youth. Hoffman: That's a good discussion for. Stolar: Future meeting? Hoffman: Yeah. Stolar: I mean I think we should come up with the criteria and determine what it means but I think we're pretty consistent saying maybe we honor him by making the plaque, the larger plaque in his name. Atkins: Yeah, I'd hate to see it maybe we should discuss whether it should be limited to volunteerism just in that capacity. It could include volunteerism in any capacity in the city. Possibly but if the name of the award was named after Frank Scott, that way he would be memorialized. Then I think that we should have input from the athletic groups... Franks' Well I hate to do this to you but it looks like you'll have some work to do, and that's your job. It seems to me to be appropriate to direct staff at least to take a look at the other types of awards that are presented by the city and the criteria that go along with them. And Todd, if you couldn't just apply that and come up with some recommendations that we can talk over and discuss. I'd also like for representatives from the athletic associations too to maybe get back in touch with you at a later date, after they' ye had some discussion about exactly what it is that they're considering too. Since the idea's really coming from you, I think it's pretty crucial that we have that input. Hoffman: I'll also contact Judy Scott and talk to her. Have a conversation about has the memorial fund ever been applied to a project, and if not, she may choose to go ahead and apply that, those funds to a project of this nature. Audience: I talked to Jim tonight, his son, and he said they haven't done anything with the funds but Frank, he thinks, they would prefer to use the funds on some type of a... Franks: Okay, great. But if you can both, if you can do that, go back to your organizations and say hey, you know what. It's obvious that as a commission we're really receptive to the idea of finding the most appropriate way to put out there for the rest of the city the values that Frank stood for. Children, athletics and volunteerism, so and then how we might combine that. If you want to get back in touch with Todd, that'd be great. Todd, if you want to bring that up to us at an agenda light meeting maybe, and then make sure it' s, the people here today at least for sure are notified that it's coming up on the agenda. Does that require a motion from us tonight? Hoffman: No. It's under visitor presentation. Franks: Great, thanks. Thank you. It appears we also have Joe Scott here tonight. MULTI-BAND BENEFIT CONCERT~ 2003 AND "TARGET MARKET" CONCERT PROPOSALSI JOE SCOTT. Park and Rec Commission Meeting -June 25, 2002 Joe Scott: Thank you very much. I'm at a different vein. One of the things that I've actually been kicking around with Jerry and Corey and Todd is, being a musician and we see the tent and the tables and chairs and stuff sitting idol during 4m of July, and there's always a great concert there on the 3ra. of July so one of the things that, and this is really hasn't, doesn't have a lot of specifics but what I was interested in getting your feedback on this concept is that, what I'd be willing to do and there's 2 other gentlemen who weren't able to be here tonight, would be to put on a concert and it would be involving different music acts that have at least one resident in Chanhassen. There'd be some adult acts. I know a couple of high school bands that would be interested, but what we're thinking about doing is having this to benefit something like the Carver-Scott Food Shelf and basically how it would be promoted is, we'd want to have one of your folks drive a dump truck or a pick-up truck or something like that promoting this concert through the parade. We would basically hold it in the tent and then try to get it started maybe a half hour before the end of the parade so that we have several thousand people downtown and it'd be very natural for them to stay in downtown and come and listen to the music. We're thinking maybe 3:00 to maybe 7:00 or 8:00. Something like that. So basically what I was interested in finding out how receptive you would be to that sort of thing. From what I understand, the utilities, I guess you guys are working on actually getting some better permanent power to that part of the field. We would supply the staging, the sound systems, the acts. I mean there'd be no expense to the city with the exception of you know driving the truck. What the concept is, is we're going to try to fill this truck up with, if you wouldn't mind Dale, but the concept is to fill this vehicle up with canned goods or something like that. So that's the first piece. The second piece, and this is I'm thinking about for 2003. The second piece is something that's a little bit youth anti-smoking group that's, it's a state organization that's funded by some of t It's the more immediate. I think some of you may be familiar with the Target Market Grou~ money fi'om the tobacco settlement, and my son Dan, who also is a musician, has been contacted by their regional group and they're really interested in putting on a target market concert in this area, in the District 112 area. And what that involves is, they're looking for a venue. They will fund the entertainment. They'll fund any sort of electricity that needs to happen. Security, trash, biffs, that sort of thing, and one of the venues that kind of stands out would be, and I don't know the field number, but when you come into Lake Ann you go past, there's like a football field. It's a softball field that points 'toward Lake Ann and it's almost like a natural amphitheater. It's kind of dug into the side of the berm there, and the thought is, would be to have some sort of a backstop there. The stage would be in that area, and I think it'd probably be less disturbing for the neighbors since it would be pointing out at the lake. So basically there's two concepts that we wanted to get your feedback on. One is basically utilizing the tent and so forth for 4th of July, 2003... work it out with staff based upon their criteria. Then keep us involved. Let us know what's going on. But so we're looking for at least your approval of the concept, but just basically more direction for us to work with city staff. And if they happen to have objections that can't be overcome, it's just not going to happen. The initial feedback is, it's a pretty sound idea. So that's basically what I'm looking for on those two particular items. Franks: Joe, do you want to stay up at the podium and see if there's any questions for from the commission. Joe Scott: I could. If this has to be recorded I should probably stay here. Otherwise I can sit down. Whatever you guys want. lljust stay here if you... I' ' Franks: Well we can hear you better with your mic. Joe Scott: Cool, okay. That's fine. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: Are there any questions from commission members? O'Shea: What does the city staff initially think about the 4th of July thing in the tent? Ruegemer: We certainly have talked about it and discussed it in the past, and it appears it has certainly the wish of this commission, or prior commission to kind of add something after the parade so this may be a good fit. O' Shea: We did do a performance of a melodrama act in the parade and it was... Joe Scott: It was wonderful by the way. O'Shea: ...and we had a huge crowd so I think people definitely would love to stick around and have something to do. Spizale: I think it' s a great idea, because unfortunately it' s like everybody kind of rushes out of the city and you have that traffic problem of everybody trying to get on 5 at the same time and being a newer resident of Chanhassen, I would definitely myself look for something to do after the parade, since we' re all here. And using the tent and the tables and everything that's there basically. Plus it goes for a nice cause. Joe Scott: Yeah. We'll raise the money necessary to get it working so that's, you guys don't have to pay anything for that. Atkins: Two co~runents. One, could the donation, whatever it may be, switch every year? So that non-profits could then kind of bid in and they'd say well we have a 100 volunteers that could help so is that flexible that it could go to? Joe Scott: Yeah, we just basically want to do something and it's a good opportunity to showcase some different musicians and I think that the people in town don't even realize there's a lot of actually fairly well known acts that are headquartered in Chanhassen. But as far as, we just want to donate something to an organization and the first thing that popped into our mind, because it's more of a physical, canned goods type of thing would be the food shelf but, and then also too, something like that it' s, we don't want to get into a situation where we're collecting money. That's just too risky, but if it's something where if you have something to donate, there's the truck. If you don't, fine. You know so it's, we'll just see how it works and maybe get more formal but I don't want to over engineer things. Basically what we're trying to do is, we'd just like to pull it off without any injuries and then learn from it. And talk to these guys and say okay, how did it go? A through F. Okay, what do we need to do differently? And then basically prove that it can be done safely and then turn it into something a little bit more organized the second time around and third and so fourth. Atkins' Okay, and then the only other thing is, when I read this, and I didn't jump into the case with the tobacco settlement. Right away I thought oh Target is involved. Joe Scott: No. Atkins: But that, I don't know if the name would be confusing to call it Target Market. Joe Scott: For the audience. The whole target market concept, and I'm obviously, I'm not in that demographic. But from what, when I talk to people who are usually, they're squarely targeting pre-teens and teens and I know a lot of kids in that age group and they're very familiar with it and Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 it's, they like it. It's kind of edgy. It gets the message across and I'm excited that my son's, well he happens to be like way out of town right now but they had a chance to chat with him today and he just wanted me to bring it forward. Have you guys think about it, but there's a lot of details that have to be done and you know, these guys are the detail meisters so they'll make sure it's on track and it's appropriate for what you guys want to have happen in town. Hoffman: It has it's own logo. Target Market. Stolar: Have we done anything like that before with specific groups like that? Allowing them to do these concerts. Hoffman: Not that I recall. Target Market will be at the 4t~ of July festival, or have they made that commitment? We had a call from the high school at least showing an interest to be up here at the street dance. I'm not sure if that's come about as yet so, but it's a good project I think for a community to be involved in and they're at the high school and so bringing that out into the large community I think we can only show support for good habits for our young people. Stolar: And the question becomes, like any other group, where do we have criteria that, so that we either one, make this a programmatic event where others can choose to do it. Whether it's the tent idea, which is separate from this one or not, and then at what point do we have to put in some criteria to say this type of thing is okay versus this type of thing? Because when you start getting into causes, political causes, which are somewhat what this is, I get a little nervous. I'm for this particular one. That's my opinion. I just want to make sure that, I think staff should look into it but we should be cautious and make sure we understand. I understand what they do, they just try to educate. Hoffman: We're not going to be, we would not necessarily be a sponsor of Target Market. We would simply write them a permit to utilize the facility and that's already covered under city ordinance. Stolar: Great. That's all I wanted to knOW. Hoffman: They get a group gathering permit and. Joe Scott: Loud speaker permit. Stolar: The big part I like about this, aside from the cause itself, but the idea of opening a venue that may not be fully utilized to something like this is a good idea. Both the tent and this other one and I think any time we can do that, that's great. Hoffman: The notion of having something after the parade has been kicked around for a number of years because the big tents and the chairs are sitting there, you can utilize them twice for one price. Some of the logistics I think if you put 500 people back under that tent they're going to want something to eat and drink, and so there's some logistics about concessions and those type of things and then making sure that the site is clean the morning after the dance so you have a clean tent area for this type of thing. Those are issues that I don't think... Franks: Thanks Joe. Joe Scott: Cool. Thank you very much. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: I think both ideas are good. The one about using the tent. I wish we had started earlier and were able to do that this year, but next year will be just fine with me. And the Target Market one, you know we allow groups that the city does not sponsor to take permits and use our facilities so, the NT Wakeboard tournament for one. We don't sponsor them but they certainly are issued a permit to use all of Lake Susan Park so I don't really see too much difference between the two, just so it doesn't conflict with whatever kind of schedules we have going on... already so. Are we in consensus as a commission to direct staff to continue conversations with Mr. Scott and/or representatives and kind of work out some of these details and when we start planning the 2003 July 4th celebration, maybe have a presentation put before the commission with maybe some more detail. I don't know how far they need to go through the permitting, applying for permits prior to coming to the commission or? Hoffman: On which one? On Target Market? Franks: On Target Market, yeah. Hoffman: That we'll leave up to them. You've said the idea is fine and the other one, the band concert with the 4th of July, we'll continue to work with Joe as a partnership and then the Target Market, he' 11 work on independently with those folks and get back to the city. Atkins: So the event under the tent for this year is out? It's too soon? Franks: Right. Joe Scott: ...I mean anything's possible. Hoffman: You'd have to just show up. Joe Scott: That would be what would happen. It would be certainly ad hoc. I would not... Franks' Sure. Well great, thank you. Joe Scott: Thank you for your time. Franks: Great ideas. Not seeing anyone else in the audience to address for visitor presentations, we' 11 move on with the agenda to the approval of the minutes. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Franks: Any commissioners with comments regarding the minutes of May 29, 2002? Atkins: Yeah, I'm listed under members absent and I'm pretty sure I was here. I was here. Franks: And I believe Tom Kelly was absent. Hoffman: That will change some things. Now there are probably some things that are said in there that are. O' Shea: That was my next one. On page 9, where O'Shea said, that was from Paula. I believe that Paula. 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Hoffman: You're going to get a lot of that stuff now. Anything that Paula said is going to be Amy so we'll have to make those changes. O'Shea: But page 9, isn't it Paula? I think you were the first one to start. Atkins: Yes. Franks: Alright. So that's throughout. Stolar: Not necessarily throughout but there's no distinction. Hoffman: We'll correct that. My apologies. Stolar: On page 20, just real quick. The number that should be used in my comment there is 9 percent of the people supported building a community center. Not 90. Just a little bit of a difference. So throughout that paragraph it should just be 9. And then actually the next one beyond that as well. Hoffman: Nann will get to know you all real soon. Franks: Jack, anything? Spizale: No. All my stuff is correct. Franks: Is there a motion to approve the minutes as to be corrected? Stolar: So moved. Franks: Second? Spizale: Second. Stolar moved, Spizale seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated May 29, 2002 as amended. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. 2002 4TM OF JULY TRADE BOOTH Hoffman: Thank you. The staff has reserved a booth for the 4th of July trade fair and for those of you who have been participated in that event, you know what it is. It's Chamber of Commerce and all of the retailers in town, service organizations, politicians and the commission has had an off and on tradition of being present at the trade fair attendance. It' s a great opportunity for some face to face contact with the community, and to gather some just to conduct a couple hours of public relations. So with that we've bartered for the $100 fee. The trade fair is still, the Chamber is selling concessions and that cost them 100 bucks so we traded that $100 for your fee for the trade fair. We have for your table, your booth, a table cloth, summer program brochures, the park and trail maps, the Chan promo magnet clips that you saw a little while ago, to hand those out. Suggestion box and cards, so people who don't want to say up front exactly what they're thinking will write it down on a card. It was very helpful the last time we did it, and provide some good ideas for the commission to start to think about and then anything else that the commission requests. We received today some little, the kids, what do you call them? Tattoo's. It's the parks 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 and recreation...but we need, I know Corey has contacted all of you and everybody has volunteered to work at the t-shirt sales and the other booth, so we need to start making some time slot adjustments to make sure that we have both of these areas covered. The fair is scheduled from 4:30 to 6:30. This booth will require 2 commissioners is best, and the 2 shifts that I have identified is 4:00 to 5:30 and then 5:30 to 7:00 and do you know what time Corey's shifts are? Ruegemer: I don't. Gregory: 6:30 to 8:45 and 8:45 to 11:00 on the 3rd. Something like that. Hoffman: Same night. So it only affects the first shift. Somehow I'll allow Chair Franks to resolve the shifts. Franks: Well we can start by resolving that easy because I will be there at 4:00 for the first shift for sure. Hoffman: We need more than that. Atkins: I'll work the first shift because I'm working for Corey from 8:45 to 11:00, so if I can do 4:00 to 5:30 and then I can have a break. Hoffman: Now I need 2 for the 5:30 to 7:00. Franks: Well let me see, Tom's not here and Dave's not here. Can't do that. Stolar: One of them said they weren't going to be around the 4~h of July either. I think Dave said that he wasn't going to be around 4°~ of July. Hoffman: Yeah, Dave will not be around. So we're talking 5:30 to 7:00. Stolar: Right, which does that overlap with the other stuff Corey has, right? Franks: Yeah, I mean I' 11 be hanging out Todd really technically until the end of the kiddie parade. So that's probably close, more to 6:00 or a little bit later. O'Shea: What was the first shift for Corey? Stolar: 6:30, so I'm on the second shift so I could do the second shift here. I'll confirm that with you guys, make sure nothing's planned beforehand. Hoffman: So you can do. Stolar: 5:30 to 7:00 potentially, I'll confirm it tonight and leave you a message. O'Shea: And I think I have the first shift with Corey so I could do 5:30 to 6:30 then. If that helps. Hoffman: Sure does. Yeah, that takes care of it because it's really done at 6:30. Franks: It really is. Thanks Amy. 12 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Hoffman: And I'll be there as well throughout the festival popping in and out. Stolar: This is the 3ra? Hoffman: Street dance. It's right up here in the second tent. So you'll have a commission booth and mingling with the people of Chanhassen about parks and recreation. Franks: I'm just remembering the very fh:st 4th of July I volunteered as a commissioner was in the trade fair, and we had that sucker prize give away thing. I think I gave away all the prizes in the first 20 minutes. I just couldn't help myself. Todd came by and he goes, where are all the bike helmets. I gave them away. I think he went up to public safety and got a few more. It was pretty funny. REPORTS: RECREATION PROGRAMS: 4TM OF JULY CELEBRATION Ruegemer: Well everybody knows that the big celebration is coming up next week. Corey's been working like a little worker ant. Running around like crazy and trying to iron out all the details. We do have obviously a few obstacles to overcome now that we've moved locations again where, you'll see our old location is 6 feet under the ground now, but with the change in location we are, somebody mentioned before that we are trying to overcome some power obstacles at this point. We certainly have a Plan B in place right now so we have a lot of those construction things covered. We need to iron out some more of those details but Corey's been working very hard, pretty much working out all the details to get it figured out. We've been looking at where food vendors are going. We did that pretty much all day today and locate for tents and really trying to lay out a nice area up to the north of city hall here where it will fall with people, as well as we're going to be utilizing north of the trail as well as the City Center Park and we'll have pony rides up there, hot air balloon, water wars, the racing games, a lot of those such things that will be north of the actual trail up at City Center Park so we'll be using a lot of that kind of open space up in that area. So we're really trying to kind of lay out things where we have power and where we don't have power and a lot of those things will fall into place here and of course.., come in early to try and get that together. Information has gone out for the schedule of events. More will be coming out. Everybody had a chance I'm sure to look at the schedule of events. Those are with your agendas. So as early as, you know the t-shirt sales have been okay. We're giving a lot of those out to our sponsors here. Those went out today and tomorrow and really just trying to get things all kind of pulled together. Does anybody have any questions? I know that Corey has talked to, as made mention before, on the trade fair conversations that he has contacted all of you about volunteering that evening so Corey would appreciate your help with that so, he'll have more specifics as far as kind of job duties that evening. Prize board sales and a lot of those types of assignments. Does anybody have any questions at all? Franks: Just something from me to pass onto Corey is, I don't know if you want to consider at some point in the evening on the 3rd, doing the t-shirt sale 2 for $15 or something because I know we're packing up boxes of those shirts at the end of the night so. Hoffman' Are we in control of that price? Ruegemer: We are not. Franks: We are not. 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Ruegemer: I don't know if anybody knows that kind of story behind the t-shirt design. Basically there' s an idea that kind of formed from the Chamber, you know the City of Chanhassen. A lot of people kind of came together on this with the idea of kind of having a community type of event. Have a kind of solicit I guess students from Chaska High School as well as Minnetonka High School. Kind of solicit their ideas for a t-shirt design, and basically for I guess- compensation if your design was the winning design they, well not donate but they, you have received a $1,000 check for your efforts and commitment I guess to that project. And then the art departments then each of the winning school then was presented a check for $250 for that. Basically the theme this year was patriotism so, and the design of the shirts then they had to include patriotism in that design. So it being kind of a community type of spirit and effort behind this, the price is the price. Stolar: No matter where you buy it. Ruegemer: No matter where you buy it, yes. Franks' Can you sell them for $12 then in the tent? Hofflnan' You bet. Franks: And the signage accordingly maybe. Hoffman: 12 bucks. Ruegemer: The proceeds then front the t-shirt sales will be going to the library project. O'Shea: Is there a good variety of sizes? Hoffman: There seems to be, isn't there? O'Shea: There's always so many extra larges. It seems like there's always a lot more really huge ones and I know that kids like to have them too. Ruegemer: Yeah, I think there is kids sizes in there actually. Hoffman: And it's next week. RECREATION CENTER REPORT. Marek: It seems a little odd to see you sitting in the middle there. Franks: I've been in the middle my whole life. Marek: Well congratulations on your position. Franks: Thank you. Marek: And welcome new commissioners. I'm here to tell you about the recreation center. I come 4 times a year and you missed my last one. It was a multi-media presentation. Today you're just getting me talking from a sheet of paper. Perhaps my next one will be a little more 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 vibrant for you. So this is my opportunity to update you on what is going on out at our rec center. I'm going to go right down the list here and add a couple of extra things along with it. I did have a beautification project to work on this year, and that included adding a perennial garden to the front entrance of the rec center. Has anybody seen that little half circle out there yet? Okay, not quite finished yet. We're finishing that park bench to go right in the...that's for a very minimal price of about $200, and some of Dale's labor. We were able to put that in there. We rescued quite a few of those plants from the entrance of the library. So we're happy about that, so it's going to be finished here in 4 weeks or so we get the bench. Other than that we've just been upgrading some of the other garden areas around the rec center, which has been kind of fun. I personally get to do that. The other thing with the summer, certainly our room rentals are much slower than they are during the school year. Our business there is seasonal. We also have the seasonal predictable decline in our fitness participants. But along with that kind of decline in traffic in our building we still seem to be attending to quite a bit of front desk business. Especially since the weather has been so horrible for 2 weeks of our summer programs, it's taken up quite a bit of our time trying to manage parents and children and finding alternate locations and canceling programs. So we're busy with that. Over the summer is our opportunity out at the rec center to assign staff to special cleaning projects so we've already started that, so that by the time September rolls around we're looking pretty spiffy out there. Big event that recently occurred, our annual Dance for Fun recital was held on May 4th at the Eden Prairie Performing Arts Center. There were 2 shows on that day with about 700 tickets sold for each show. The theme this year was Boogie Fever, and we had a pretty rough rehearSal in the fact that we had no music for the first hour and a half of that rehearsal so pretty hard to practice your dances when you have no sound. But we got through it and amazingly the shows came off flawlessly. Mayor Jansen was there and did participate in choosing some awards that were given out at the recital. Very successful program for us. Another special program we run every spring is the 5K in May training course. For the last 3 years we've had 20 people sign up for this class, where we take people who are novice runners or no running at all in their history, and put them through a training course so they are able to finish a 5K race. And one of my fitness instructors, Joann Killian is just does a wonderful job with that program and we're happy to have her conclude that for the third year. And amazingly I' ve lost a staff member off the rec center. Can you believe it? Hoffman: Somebody left. Marek: ... It's been remarkably stable out there, but Jon Effertz did leave the rec center and found a job in his career field. Closer to his career field and so we sent him off with good wishes. He still shows up for basketball at lunchtime so he didn't go very far. And in addition to what's included in my update, a very serious recent event did occur at the rec center. June 21st at 5:30 a.m. the recreation center and Bluff Creek Elementary School was struck by lightning. And so I just kind of wanted to recap for you some of the damage that was incurred. The exterior handicap assist doors were blown out. 4 fire alarm pulls...were blown out. Our security system was blown out. Our phones and computer lines were down for about 48 hours. Our cable service is still not working. And we have two exercise bikes that were blown their control panel off of them. This is just what we've found so far. As we go through and try to use some of these things, we expect we' 11 probably find a few more items. With the exception of the exercise bikes, everything else should be fixed yet this week. The only expense to the city is with regard to the Rick Rice's time in addressing the phone and computer issues. I've got a request out for pricing on fixing the exercise bikes but I presume that will probably be a little over a thousand dollars. To get those operational again. Hoffman: City Hall was hit the same morning and it took out a variety of computer components. All protected by lightning protection but the intensity of those just overwhelmed it. 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Marek: That's all that's been happening at the Rec Center. Hoffman: You guys remember that morning? Franks: Yes. I heard that one. I thought it was right in my back yard. That must have been the one that hit City Hall. Marek: Jon was just about ready to open the doors when the lightning hit. Franks: Now are you guys all going to go out and buy lottery tickets because the odds are about the same, right? Marek: We're in a tough spot because shortly after lightning struck and the power went out in the building, the fire alarms went off and our security alarms went off. Both of those systems are run by the computer.., so the trucks were out. Hoffman: Dale showed up about then. Marek: We didn't know until 9:00 that anything... Franks: Any questions for Susan? O'Shea: I have one. Do you do, this number 5 sounds real interesting. Do you ever do that for the Dave Huffman Run? Where you do a training like that? Do you already do that? Marek: No we haven't. O'Shea: Would that be a good idea? Marek: It would be if I had an instructor who could do it during that timeframe. What we're dealing with during, the program runs 6 weeks prior to the race date, which is a lot easier to do in March and April when the weather's a little cooler, than say the whole month of August into September. It's primarily a heat issue at that time, as well as instructor... It would be nice. O'Shea: You'd probably get the con2nissioners back... Hoffman: Anybody can gut out 5K. Franks' Alright, thanks. SENIOR CENTER REPORT. Wickenhauser: Good evening, and many of you who don't know me. I know there's a few new members. I'm Kara Wickenhauser and I run the senior center. I want to welcome you all to the commission, new members. Hoffman: And Kara's here twice a year. Wickenhauser: Twice a year, yep. Winter and during the summer. The senior center just completed celebrating some activities for the month of May, for Older Americans Month. We 16 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 held several special activities that honored that theme throughout the month. We had a Lake Ann picnic out at Lake Ann. Entertainment. We had a guest speaker on investments. We had special concerts put on by our Chan-o-laires at the recreation center. Two performances there for the elementary students there. We had also a performance at the Centennial Hills for the residents in town. We had a bake sale in conjunction with the Friends of the Library. There was a card tournament for 500, Hand & Foot and Bridge. We had a golfing tourney out at Red Oaks in Mound. And we also had a fishing contest on Lake Minnewashta which was kind of fun. I had an opportunity to go out there...really good time. All these things were well received. Next year they thought we should really cut down the activities because there was too many. Too overwhelming. Or consolidate it within a few weeks so we're considering doing that, but otherwise we think people really enjoyed the activities. Other than the special activities that we offer throughout the month of May, we continued to offer our monthly one day outing, extended trips, defensive driving class...foot care clinic every month...activities throughout the summer that include Bridge, women and men's club book club. Wood carving. We're up to 19 or 20 people, and that group is really booming. We have a bingo group. Golfing group. It's been kind of iffy this year. It's been kind of rainy and wet and so there's been some weeks when they haven't been meeting ......wrap up in June and they're going to resume back in September. I ~dn t Include a hst of their entertaining that t,hey did this last year. They've been doing an excellent, they're under the direction of...she s been doing an outstanding job. Currently I'm just working on fall programming with a committee that's set up-with the Chaska Park and Rec. We're working to partner with Chaska and...Waconia and Victoria Park and Rec and so it's kind of neat connection. We all take a turn offering a program once a month and then we have pick-up sites within our community. It's kind of a nice way to lessen our cancellation of trips so it's really a neat connection we have going there. I'm still...programs with Eden Prairie 3 times a year. Some of the new programs that are up and coming. I have an instrumental group that's been meeting every Friday they've been trying to meet. We have 4 saxophones. They get together to play for fun. I've had a couple new calls this week. I don't know what they played but I'm hoping something other than... We're hoping for another wind wood, I don't know we'll see but they're really, they play for fun. They'd like to maybe kind of hook up with the Chan-o- laires and so some singing music formation and they do like to entertain at some point. I think their biggest struggle right now.., some people just want to play polka and waltzes and their...likes classical, jazz so I with...get me to come out of retirement with my saxophone and I keep declining but he's working hard to get me there so. We also have...fall at the rec center. On October 25th and we're working in coordination with Beth Hoiseth, the Crime Specialist for the City. Sergeant Potts will... Chanhassen Fire Department, the Victoria Fire Department and the Victoria Senior Center and so we're hoping for that to be really good. Some of the topics will include scares, fire safety, con intervention, crime prevention, 911...medical emergency services. They'll have a luncheon and Beth has a thing so we're hoping that we'll turn up, well we do have solicitations out with the Lions and the Legion for some funding so we're waiting to hear on that yet. We'd like to keep the cost down to about 5 a person so that's up and coming. We have open house on July 3rd. We have our l0th year anniversary this year since the senior center's been open and we're taking lemonade and a magician show. And parking has been an issue for us in the senior center but it's been going surprisingly smooth. There's been a few problems today where someone parked and the library didn't...how to get to the senior center but other than that, people appreciate the city blocking off space for them and accommodating them so actually some people have said it's been easier to use the upstairs...actually go up the ramp from the front entering so we've been pleasantly pleased with that. Any questions? Franks: Thanks Kara. Thank you. Hoffman: What else do you do in your 20 hours? 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Spizale: I've got one question. Wickenhauser: Yes. Spizale: How old do you have to be to be a senior? 55 or is? Wickenhauser: 50-55. 60. I've got very few, I think the average age is, I'm going to say 65 or 70. I think if we did more evening programming we maybe would attract more of the working senior. It's hard to say. I'd like to eventually do some more of that. Hoffman: No discrimination. If you feel like you want to come up. Wickenhauser: Yes, anyone can come. But generally that's how old. Spizale: Show my AARP card. Wickenhauser: For defensive driving they were just talking, they're going to try to lower it to 50 for you to take the different classes, so there you go. Spizale: Okay, thanks. Franks: Any other questions or comments for Kara? Great, thanks. Wow. PARK AND TRAIL MAINTENANCE REPORT. Gregory: Good evening. I'd like to welcome all the new commission members, and for those of you who don't know me, my name is Dale Gregory. I am Park Superintendent for the City. Springtime is. Hoffman: Tell them how long you've worked here. Gregory: 31-32 years. Springtime is always our very busy time for park maintenance staff. Everything seems to be coming at the same time. Grass, mowing, ballfields, soccer fields, you name it. Anything Jerry and those guys can think of and that comes at the same time. We try to get our weed spraying done right away in the spring, and also our fertilizing. We get that going. This year with the weather we had, we did have a little bit of trouble. We had a lot of wind in the spring. We did have quite a bit of rain in the spring right away so fertilizing, we were able to get that in. Spraying, we were only able to get Lake Ann, Lake Susan and some of the, we got all the schools completely sprayed. We did get a few of the small parks and that but there was just too much going on and that for the staff I had. With that then we didn't have any of our seasonal help yet so we were really ~nd of pushed there and have to get things done. One thing we are looking at this year, and that is possibly getting into the fall spraying and do it in the fall and try to get the stuff that we missed now and hopefully not have to do so much in the spring so we're doing, I do it at home. It works real well so we're going to give that a try and see if that works and see if we' ve got more time. This summer, or this spring and that we were really pushed and that. We actually put the full time guys on 10 hour days for 2 weeks just to try to keep up with things and it seemed to work pretty good. I do have 15 seasonals that I get through the summer. Out of those, 5 of them are senior citizens and they have really been a big help to us. They run all of our big mowers so they were doing a lot of our mowing for us this spring so if it wouldn't be for those guys, we'd really have been behind. So my hats go off to those guys to come in and, like I say, 18 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 even in bad weather or what, they were out there and they were mowing. They're dedicated. I've got to give them credit for that. The Lake Ann road was finished this year. We had some problems with that last year with the building and that, it never did get completed so this year that got completed.. We currently have the restoration to do along side of the road going in. Our intention was to have that done before the 4th so everything would look good. The rains we've had in the past 2 weeks and that, it's just not going to happen. We just can't get in there. It's too wet and we wanted to have it done but it's not going to happen. So as soon as it dries up we will get in there. We'll get that finished and get that whole thing all completed. Downtown crew, they've been just as busy as we have and that. They only had 2 guys working down there this whole spring. They try to take care of as much of the spraying as they can. They are pretty much all done spraying. All done weed whipping and fertilizing downtown. Right now they've got a full compliment of crew downtown. They are constantly working trying to get everything to look good for the 4th of July. For the parade route and everything downtown, they're really working on that so. We also made a real attempt this year at with the library going in, we wanted to save as many of those trees as we possibly could. We had 35 to 40 trees marked, and we were only able to move about 10 because of all the utilities, fiber optics, and all that sort of stuff so we were not able to move everything we wanted to. So those, the ones we were able to we did get moved out into neighboring parks and that stuff so we are, they were saved what we could save. Other than that, that' s pretty much what's happening for this spring. If anybody has any questions. Stolar: Quick, with my first City Council meeting and they were talking about the City Center Commons and stuff going on there and one of my concerns I mentioned to Todd was, you know can we do something to save the trees. The fact that you saved 10, thank you. Gregory: Well like I say, when we originally looked at the plan, I mean we were hoping for a lot more than that. We had gone out. We had marked all of these trees, and I met with all the utilities up there. They went out and marked them, by the time they were done, there was only 10 we could really pull out and then the ones down main street were the ones I really wanted to save. They were nice trees and those lindens and that, and it just didn't happen so. But we tried. Stolar: And you got 10 So. Franks: Dale just one thing for 4th of July, Todd too. Some year I think we talked about after the fireworks display on the 4th, of having the frontage road out of Lake Ann be almost a one way. Hoffman: It will be both. Highway 5 will open this week. Franks: It will? So they'll be able to go both directions out of the park, okay. Hoffman: Carver County Deputies will stop traffic on the frontage road and allow traffic to go both ways, east and west out of Lake Ann Park. Franks: Perfect. Great, thanks. Gregory: ...one of the problems they were having, or did have. They wanted to open last Friday already but they were having trouble with power to the semaphores and also they wanted I think crosswalks and everything. They had to do the painting and everything. They had to have the road dry for 24 hours because they can actually do the striping. But it sounds like they're pretty much ready to open as soon as they can. Franks: Alright, I think the parks look great. 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Hoffman: Chair Franks, before we move on. I want to publicly acknowledge these 4 individuals in front of the commission. These are the people that make the department operate on a day to day basis. They make my job a pleasure and they're wonderful, committed employees and it's great that they stop down and keep in touch with the commission and I appreciate that they do that. A few things on Dale's crew. They maintain the downtown, 30 miles of trails within the community, 34 parks within the community and then something you don't think about is miles and miles of boulevard around Powers Boulevard and the frontage road and those different types of areas. He does that with 7 full time people, but then 2 of those are committed solely to the downtown, so now you have 5 individuals, including Dale himself, so now you're talking about 4 individuals. Full time status to do that work. In the summer, one of those, the park foreman by the name so Dean Schmieg is committed to managing the work of 15 seasonal employees, which takes up his entire schedule so now you're down to 3 people to complete the other tasks in our park system. The majority of calls or the highest percentage of calls I get from citizens are about park maintenance and so we talk about that a great deal. Dale and I and it's our philosophy that if we own, we want to maintain it to a level that meets people's expectations. But that can be very difficult on a public agency. We're probably staff far less than 50 percent of what say an Arboretum or a private amenity with private facilities, private organization would be, but these guys pull off about 90 percent of what they need to get done and 50 percent staff so very proud of that. Proud of what Susan does at the Rec Center. What Kara does with 20 hours at the senior center is absolutely amazing. Remarkable and Jerry, we call him, or I call him my right hand man. He sits right next to me. Has donethat for 12 years and I couldn't make it without him so again I just want to ac-knowledge all that they do for the city. They're a wonderful department. Franks: Thank you Todd. It's all true. Thank all of you. ADMINISTRATIVE: 2002-2007 PARK ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM~ CIP. Hoffman: Thank you Chair Franks, members of the commission. The rest of you are free to stay and listen, or to take off and rejoin your families as you see fit. Franks: Oh Todd, if I could back up one thing. Question for you Dale. How are the new trash receptacles working out? Gregory: They're working well. Franks: Good. Hoffman: Just remind them to put the covers on securely when they put them back. That's the only thing I noticed. Those covers are sometimes tough to get back on. Our seasonal employees just say the heck with it. Franks: Are we thinking about sticking with this variety? Hoffman: We purchased them for 2 years. We can purchase more next year and we have the entire system covered. Gregory: ...so we will be trying that this year when the bees and the wasps start getting bad. I've already got a product we're going to be trying.., and they say it works real well, so maybe 20 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 we can try to eliminate some of the complaints on the bee part of there too. The concession buildings and the park buildings...give it a whirl. If it works, we'll stay with it. Franks: Thank you. Alright Todd, thanks. Hoffman: So tonight we're going to continue with our work session and really open it up to talk about what you as commissioners feel is important in the area of capital improvements in our park system. You're all familiar with how the parks and other park systems around the metropolitan area, in your hometown where you grew up. Where you travel and what we want to discuss as a group is, in our system one amenity will create...best return on our investment so we have a park system of 34 parks. A nice mix of community and neighborhood parks. Rather than use them all, they tend to use the community parks more often, they have a very high affinity for the neighborhood parks because it's what is down the street. It's what they, when somebody says where do you live, I live near this park...what's there and so we want to make those areas, take our money and make them better. I provided a sheet, which is simply an inventory of the items and estimated cost of all the items which are displayed on our park, current park master plans. But I want to caution you that these park master plans are simply a document primarily from, a majority of them are 8 or 10 years old and so as you want to change the inventory list, you just change.., the park master plan and we update this and you add these other amenities. All these we're working towards a recommendation to the City Council. We have some financial data the commission's been asking for showing that primarily we've been over a half million dollars in revenues and park and trail dedication fees in the past 5 years. 4 years and so the revenues have been coming in nicely. The current fund balance is $1.85 million. Of course this year, huge projects being completed. Highway 101 north, Highway 101 south. That fund will go down by somewhere in the vicinity of a million or a million 2 so we're talking about having a much lower reserve balance, fund reserve balance at the beginning of 2003. You all received Dave' s comments. Dave had some, he's traveling to LA but he had some comments for the commission and I'm going to allow Chair Franks to go through the conversation with the commission. I'll be glad to answer any questions, and this is the first step. We can identify amenities which you feel are a value, and then we'll start plugging those into a spread sheet and start attacking it from a financial standpoint at your next meeting. So right now we're brainstorming. We're coming up with the best of all situations. Franks: Thanks Todd. Bring this back to the commission. A simple way to go through the exercise maybe we'd just go to the page where it starts with Bandimere Park on the handout in the packet and that lists amenities in the master plan. And maybe just begin to take a look at amenity by amenity. What we are interested in and what we are not, and then also to add any additions that anybody's come up with. Stolar: Todd, I sent you those materials with some of the criteria and all. Is that something we look at later as we start prioritizing later? This is just a brainstorm of what do we want in general? Hoffman: Correct. I have that. Thank you for sending that. If that applies at a future time I'll just come up with those criteria and we'll start plugging them in so it begins to work into what we're doing here. This is no time to be shy. Go ahead and speak your mind and if there's, we're talking big numbers and big projects but you have to say if you like it or don't like it or if we're missing something because that's the way this exercise is going to be most effective. Franks: Great. Well let's just start with Bandimere Park then. First thing on the top of the list is the silo restoration. Did everybody get Dave's email? 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Hoffman: Dave didn't like it. Franks' What I liked from his email though was, him actually going out and getting some of the comments from the neighbors that have to look at it each day. We have to look at it every time we drive by, but they' re looking at it all the time so. O'Shea: Is the silo on the master plan here? Franks' The silo is right there. Hoffman: Yep .... shelter rest stop. Stolar: On this map, the things that are listed here are all possible master plan items, but not all are listed here though right? Hoffman: Should be. Pretty darn close. Stolar: Well the trails for example aren't, right? Hoffman: Trails are in. Franks' Trails are in. Stolar: Oh okay. How do you distinguish those that are in and those that should be? It's just whatever's here is what's left to do? Hoffman: You bet. Stolar: Okay. Hoffman: Up here. This is the distinguisher. Franks: You -know we heard what was it, at the last meeting that there's nothing unsafe or structurally problematic about the silo the way it is. Hoffman: No. If we want to leave it like that for another 10 or 15 years we could probably just readdress how we close the stairway to it. The stair well to it to make that more permanent. It's in wood right now...absolutely take it out and make that a metal enclosure. And have some kind of an inspection on the facility to make sure it's not falling down. The thing that's going to go first probably is the roof. It will continue to rust and...infiltrate that so... Franks: And the other question I had too on Bandimere, Todd for you, the Phase II playground equipment you have here is $60,000 on this sheet but I'm looking at my old CIP for 2004, it looked like we had it out for $40,000. Hoffman: I increased it. Franks: Okay. We have a surfacing material out there now which is a poured in place rubber, which will cost $20,000 or $25,000 of that 60. That's my reason for the increase. Now that we've set the standard, I can't put pea gravel at Bandimere. 22 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: Just going along with the Phase II playground equipment, in a number of the parks we're all looking at developing with Phase II the playground equipment. I think a topic for discussion for us would be the investment that we put into that, when playground equipment already exists, and the return from that. And where we might apply those dollars someplace else within the system. Neighbors always talk about, and I would probably be one of them, that residents around your neighborhood park, you want the playground equipment. You want it, you want it, you want it. But you drive by a lot of the neighborhood parks at any particular time and the use is, you know sporadic at some. Very, very little at others and at times it can be used, so when you look at 40 to 60,000 for Phase II, what might we want to do with that as well and maybe delay implementing some of these playgrounds and Phase II' s until the pressure from the neighborhoods is greater. Stolar: Is there a difference between a community park and a neighborhood park, as far as utilization now? Of the playground equipment. Hoffman: There can be. Bandimere and Lake Ann, those all see high uses, especially during game time because there's siblings around them. But then there's other times when they're just empty because no activity's taking place and the neighborhoods tend to see more of just the casual activity during the week nights. The other thing to remember is there, we distinguish between Phase I and Phase II by age. So CPSC, Consumer Product Safety Commission, ASPN, those standards mandate that you have two separate play areas. One for age 2 to 5 and one for age 6 to 10 or 6 to 12, so now we separate these things for Phase I. The neighborhood generally picks and most the times they pick the older aged groups, so that one goes in and then if we do do a Phase II, it's for the younger kids. The age 2 through 5. You have to have physical separation between those two to meet federal regulations. Franks: Have you been receiving comments about Phase II playground installations throughout the neighborhood park system? Hoffman: Now as much as we did 5 or 10, 5 or 7 years ago. Franks: And what do you attribute that to, do you think? Hoffman: Aging of the kids. Aging of the neighborhoods and the fact that most parks have something and they just have not been, for a while there they screamed very loud when they didn't have their first set of playground equipment and then some came back and said you know, it's over run with kids. We need our Phase II, and we just have not been receiving that at the same level of correspondence with the neighborhoods as of late. O'Shea: And Phase II is of which age then? Hoffman: 2 to 5. 2 to 5, the little guys. Toddlers. Stolar: I guess going along with what you're saying though, I would think that, if we do make a judgment there, I would lean towards the community parks providing the alternative and not doing this in every neighborhood park to your point, unless we hear the clamorings from a particular neighborhood. Maybe their demographics change or whatever, that they can support it for a while but in the community park it'd be nice to have the alternatives. So for Bandimere, being the community park, I would think we'd still want it on the list. Again I'm not prioritizing, just brainstorming. Keep it on the list. 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Hoffman: That's good thinking. Do those community parks first. Did you receive my little correspondence back to Dave today explaining tennis courts? We jumped from playgrounds to tennis courts. Tennis courts were on every park master plan and starting to put those in, and the commission 10 to 15 years ago said hang on a second. Tennis' popularity is starting to slide. It's a very physical, labor intensive, cost intensive fixture so they took them out in many neighborhoods...local tennis people again did not appreciate that but they stuck to their guns and they said no, we're going to put these in banks of 4 courts in community parks. So Bandimere does, on the plan there tennis court is identified as a single court adjacent to a basketball hard court, but it's location is terrible as far as parking and access to a tennis court. So I'm not sure that it would ever be one of those things that we would want to invest our time or money in, because it simply is not very accessible. But there is space available for it. It's just in back of ballfield number 3. We have a four bank of tennis courts at the rec center. Four bank at Chan Elementary. Twin set at South Lotus. Twin set at North Lotus, and then the question came from David on Roundhouse. Is that a good investment at Roundhouse, and again my response was, the commission at that time talked about Roundhouse or West Minnewashta...option on the park master plan, and I' m not sure if it will ever be built, but I think it' s in keeping with kind of that thin~ng that was set up 10 years ago. Bandimere's the toughest spot. Just physically. Geographically in that location. Franks: I just don't see, and maybe I'm driving by at the wrong time but I'm not seeing our existing tennis courts getting a lot of heavy use. Hoffman: They're used at the conmmnity level for athletics and so high schools utilize the courts which is good. The rec center, student...I mean it gets utilized. Marek: Every morning we've got somebody there. Hoffrnan: Yeah, it's being used. Marek: Yeah, it's being used in the morning for lessons and the high school and junior high also. Middle school. Hoffman: It's a good plan the way they're built. By putting them at community sites. Lake Ann gets very little use. Gregory: Lake Susan gets quite a bit. Hoffman: Yeah, the other courts are there... It's a convenience factor. Franks: What makes, I was going to say, what makes those work I think is you can drive right up to the court and park and get out. And the lights too I think are also a big factor. Marek: You can park close enough to leave your stereo on in your car. Franks: Taking that into consideration, it just really doesn't appear that the tennis for sure in Bandimere really works because it doesn't really fit that location criteria in a way where it's going to get use, I don't think anyway. The other thing Todd on Bandimere where you have the hard court on the map, is that where the Phase II play area. 24 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Hoffman: It's in the same location. You would need to put in a hard court and then Phase II playground right in that general vicinity, and we're starting to run out of room so, I'm not sure a hard court would take precedence over the Phase II playground equipment. Stolar: What is the hard court for? Hoffman: Hop scotch, four square, those kind of activities. Franks: Generally speaking to the other question I had, and this comes up at Bandimere too, is the sand volleyball courts. And I'm just wondering if that's something that's gone the way of the 90' s or if those in these kinds of locations are going to continue to be used. Hoffman: At the beach they get used. Any other parks we really see very. Gregory: Very little. Franks: Even the quality courts that we have at Lake Susan, I mean those are pretty nice sand volleyball courts. Are those? Ruegemer: Picnics have a lot of use as well but general type of pick-up kind of volleyball, no. There's too many leagues out there at Fletcher's and other types of places that it's kind of... Hoffman: It's cheap. If somebody really wants it, they can stick it just about anywhere. Gregory: The only thing is gets to be a maintenance problem. We had one...in neighborhood parks, they just don't get used. We can't get the weeds out of them and all that. They're more of a pain than they are... Hoffrnan: They cost us $500 a year to maintain them. Franks: And you've got to mow around them. Gregory: Well tile weeds inside...makes it tough. Franks: Now about the ballfield lighting. What's the status on that? Hoffman' Well people always ask. Is there going to be lighting at Bandimere and we say yes. It's in the deeds for the Lundgren properties that there's a disclosure that those fields, those soccer fields will have lights, and I don't think it needs to happen in the near future. But at some point this city will run out of land and the kids will keep coming and they'll want the parents and these people sitting in the audience will want access to more fields and .so you have that ability here. " Spizale: Lights are expensive. Franks: Yes they are. Spizale: Six lights for $500. Hoffman' Six fields. It's about. 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Spizale: Oh 6 fields? Hoffman: 6 fields. There will be a lot of light standards. Spizale: That makes more sense. Stolar: Is there any way with regard to the ballfield lighting, as we do the extension to use the popularity and utilization to fund these? So for example, putting some reserve set aside from an entrance fee for an activity to go strictly to the lights? Don't know if we have that capability. Hoffman: There aren't any entry fees. Stolar: Clubs don't pay any rentals or anything like that? Okay. Hoffman: The one way to do it is to...is to go with the cell towers and we could take a look at that. Have a cell tower at Bandimere with the siren... Ruegemer: Have the soccer. Hoffman: Install new lighting with the, put up a cell tower as a part of that, and Bandimere's a good location for it so that might be an option. Franks: Were one of you were suggesting something like an assessment for like a, as far as the activity fees that the participants pay, that the city have like a 50 cent assessment or something like that for participants and we collect that and put that into a fund for lighting of our fields. Is that? Stolar: Well I was thinking if they were paying a rental fee more to set aside than anything else. But since we don't pay a fee, there's nothing to set aside. And that would just allow those that use it to pay for it and get utilization out of it. Atkins' Will there be a fee for using the picnic shelter there when it's there? Hoffman: For rentals? Sure. The picnic shelter is generally is thought of as a place for public restrooms, gathering point for, we have a lot of tournaments and those type of activities and you need just a central location so that is known as the location there. It's inbetween the soccer greens and the other ball fields, softball, baseball fields. Atkins: What is a ballfield shelter? Hoffman: A ballfield shelter will go in with a concession space would go in the center. The wheel of the ballfields. They' ve got these baseball fields and again a concession central location for, during tournaments, concession sales. Storage. Someplace you can get out of the weather. Those type of things. Atkins: So it's a concessions stand too? Hoffman' Yeah. There's a location that's been designated there in the center wheel for some type of building in the future. The other larger building, which is restroom shelter with, it' s stated here with an arm structure that, there's already the sewer and the water, both sewer and water has been stubbed out to that location. So those utilities are in place. 26 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: Well I'd like to see, now no jokes about my liking big ticket items but you know putting in a park shelter with the restrooms certainly makes Bandimere a prime location for a real solid tournament play because it provides that kind of base. I'd love to use this park utilized in that way. Kind of on the scale that we spent so much time creating it for. The similar is also the park shelter at City Center Park as well. My thinking too is, not that we want to tackle them all at once but based on the financial information you gave us, while it appears our ability to collect revenues is still fairly solid, that we really consider going forward with some of these substantial capital projects while we really have an ability to utilize some of the money coming in to do those. Hoffman: Please remember as you're going through these, that these are only the parks. Any trail capital plans that are not, we're not talking about at this time. But in that same breath the city is, has done very well with trail development in the half a dozen years and there are no large glaring trail improvements that we see in the immediate horizon. There are some small connector pieces and there are some larger projects which people wOuld like to see happen. Lyman Boulevard, east and west. What are some of the other ones? Highway 41, north to south. But those are slated to occur with road improvements. Lyman Boulevard upgrade and State Highway 41 upgrades so, that's really the trail, we've been pretty blessed within the last... Franks: So if we can kind of move onto some of the other stuff, but just my personal suggestion at Bandimere was really look at two projects. In a sense. One would be getting in that Phase II playground equipment, and then also looking at developing the park shelter. Stolar: Would we see a valid with pay back...center also to go along with the theme? Hoffman: It's a service. The cost to put it in and then it's going to be operated by the associations. It would not be operated by the city and so when they sponsor a tournament they would sponsor a concessions to help pay off their tournament costs. The city would take a percentage out of that, but we will never make the money back that we would invest in the building. Stolar: Okay. Franks: I know we had talked about at one point in having one of those concession areas with machines and the steel roll down door. I don't know, would that be included, something like that in the park shelter that we talked about building or, kind of a self service concession area. Hoffman: That'd be a discussion at that time. To go along with that tournament, what makes the tournament, or what makes it a nice event is when you have people selling concessions and it's full service. You can go there, and these tournaments, they last all day so you have restrooms. Someplace to get out of the sun. Someplace to get something to eat, and so those are the things that people are looking for when they go to a nice facility. Atkins: And the lights aren't necessarily needed to attract tournaments. Okay. Hoffman: No. Franks' Alright let's just, if that's enough on that. Let's move on down. Really the half court basketball on Bandimere Heights. You know it's a hike up the hill but, if we do a hard, I just didn't see the, if we do a hard court area in Bandimere Park, and then duplicate something fairly similar down in Bandimere Heights, I don't know if we want to. 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Hoffman: One or the other. Franks' One or the other is what I'm saying, right. Not necessarily both, but really one or the other. Hoffman: You can see it on the plan on the first sheet. There's a half court basketball. Franks: The thing you can't really tell from this sheet though is the trail going down, is really pretty steep. I mean it's a little hike up the hill. Hoffman: Half court basketball, there's simply a way to introduce hard surface into a green space which not only accommodates basketball but Big Wheels and all sorts of other things so it's a nice addition to a neighborhood park setting. Stolar: Where's that? Franks' On Bandimere Park still. Hoffman: Right on the...you can see the neighborhood. Bandimere Park is both a community and a neighborhood park. The neighborhood park was here before the other park was bought, right at this location. It was swallowed up by Bandimere Cormnunity Park, so we have two parks in one. The con-nnunity park and Bandimere Heights Park and that's showing a basketball court right down in here. Down in the neighborhood. And then the park, the basketball court on top is shown right here. Next to the tennis court. Franks: I mean one or the other. Or maybe even go with the hard court area by the play area. I mean I don't 'know if you want to combine them all but some -kind of plan. I really think just one of those 3 locations should go in. I don't know if we need, I really believe we don't need all 3 of them. Hoffman: Just a couple of the things listed on there to think about it... Franks: It would help to be able to see it. Alright. Everything's I think pretty straight forward as far as, unless anybody has any additions to Bluff Creek, Carver Beach. Hoffinan: Just keep flipping plans. Franks' I have one thing down at Chan Estates. You know what I'm going to say. I'd love to have some off road access of some sort to that park, so at least it'd be identified as useable. Hoffman: At Chan Estates. Franks: Chan Estates. And I don't know whether a curb cut with a couple of parking spots off Lake Drive. I mean something even as, well I know that's not simple because of the whole permitting and stuff but. Hoffl'nan: Do you guys know where this one is? It's the tiny little outlot across from McDonald's and it was a, what was it? A sewer. Gregory: Sewer plant. 28 Park and Rec Commission Meeting -June 25, 2002 Hoffman: Sewer plant and when they...the sewer plant, they handed it over to parks and there's a playground and a half court basketball there today. A row of trees. A park sign, but yeah, you can't park on Lake Drive. So we would have to create a parking lot. Atkins: Is there parking for the park? Franks: No. Atkins' You can park on the street inside Chan Estates near it? Franks: No. · Hoffman: You have to come off of, you have to walk from McDonald's or come in from the neighborhood, and those are only formal access points. Franks: Yeah, I can't imagine there'd be a tremendous amount of use at that park anyway from anybody that's not aware of the trail from Chan Estates in but, if there'd be a way to get a spot or two even just, you know off the street. I don't know if we can do that. Hoffman: We can, they're going to want to have it so you can pull in, turn around and pull back out. They won't do a curb cut there on Lake Drive and so, the problem has always been, we're talking 40 or 50,000 dollars to contribute to this little neighborhood park. This little pocket park. Franks: Okay. Chan Hills Park, unfortunately was put in before we had the great idea of putting loop trails in parks. Hoffman' Trail? Franks: Yeah, loop trail. It was in the park itself. So I don't know if that's, do we ever have a lot of extra asphalt to get rid of?. I think that might be a project to put in but maybe an in-house project. I think for a neighborhood that's one that is used pretty well. The neighborhood's fairly isolated. Hoffman: Fairly good access to the park. Is anyone familiar with Cathcart Park and the arrangements that we have there? Cathcart is in the far northwest corner of the city, and it's owned by the City of Shorewood, but resides in Chanhassen. It was given to Shorewood by the Church across the street for a park. Shorewood maintained it and invested in the capital improvements over all these years, and then Chanhassen grew up around it and our citizens were utilizing it. The people in Shorewood, the administrative people, the city people approached the City of Chanhassen to take it over. The final arrangement was that Dale would maintain the shrubs and trees and the grass in the summer, and Shorewood would continue to be responsible for the capital improvements. I just want to make you aware of that special arrangement that we have in that particular park. Franks: Are we moving onto Chanhassen Nature Preserve? Todd, could you put up on the map, just to orientate. Do you have like a large map, well maybe this will be good. Hoffman: Trail map upstairs. The Chanhassen Nature Preserve is being assembled out of a 60 acre donation from Betty O'Shaughnessy and the general configuration is like this. So she donated that 60 acres. She didn't want her name put on the park and so it was named Chanhassen 29 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Nature Preserve given to the park. There's also a concept of turning this into a memorial sites, so it would be Chan Memorial Park. Really the only amenity is the trail loop system which is going to be a very nice trail corridor around the exterior. The thought would be to put trail benches and those type of things and create a...park setting. That was discussed a couple of years ago by the commission. The other two pieces...are being acquired as a part of the development in this larger Arboretum Industrial Park, so the city invested all of it' s park dedication fees in acquiring this land and then when these two lots are built, this lot right here and this lot in this location, the applicant from Chan Business Park, through the development contract with the city, is responsible for completing the trail. So this trail segment and this trail segment will be built at the time that these two lots are developed, and that's fairly imminent now with the construction of the Century Boulevard interchange. So Century will come in and these two lots will then be highly desirable lots with Highway 5 with the new stop light...this trail system will be completed, and we'll have, start to get some very nice exposure to what is going to be the largest open space preserve within the City of Chanhassen that is...owned by the City. It's over 100 acres. Larger than Lake Ann Park, and larger, much larger than the Fox acquisition which was recently made in southern Chanhassen. And the trail, I can't recall the last time. It was about a mile loop going around the entire area of Chan Beach Preserve so. As far as capital improvements, the one area that we would be looking at is right at this location which is a parking lot for a trail head. And so we have one neighborhood to the south, and the neighborhood just right off the park boundary here off of 5 and Galpin, and then a neighborhood off of the east that can utilize this trail just from their homes, but we feel that a local or regional draw for people who want to drive, park and then take advantage of this one mile beautiful walk and so we have the, really the obligation as a commission and the city to provide that trail head and I don't believe we have that listed. Yeah, it's listed there. Franks: What's the difference though between the parking lot and trail head? Hoffman: One and the same. Trail head would have a gazebo, seating. A kiosk so if you wanted to get out of your car, then you have a place to gather under a shelter or have a picnic lunch, something like that so a trail head location and then go off on your walk. Two separate concepts. Spizale:, How many parking spaces? Hoffman: Probably about 15 to 20. It's a fairly small area if you drive down Coulter Boulevard and then we located this, it's on a high point right down there, so 20 some parking spaces probably. Spizale: You know it' s a shame that, if that's going to be developed with some type of development, the parking lot for the business that was there couldn't be used in coalition with that business. Hoffman: This one primarily. Spizale: Somebody is going to be building a parking lot like they have across the street. Hoffman: Something we can discuss with the developer. They're always hesitant when you bring the public into a private setting. This building will be a very nice, probably office building. Obviously they'll have parking there and then you would get into the conversation of compensation so we're offering parking at a private facility for public use. We want to discuss that. Find out the nature of the business, but I can guarantee you a facility like Rosemount would not want public parking in their facility for security reasons so, but it's a good idea. 3O Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Stolar: It's designated corporate industrial setting? Hoffman: Yeah. Corporate industrial office. It's a nice lot. If you've been out there, this is the nicest property. Nicest lot here. So it's a nice facility. Something different from what you traditionally see in the neighborhood or community park settings, and actually in surveys, this is what people ask for. Once this thing is developed and available to the public and people start to discover that they can go out and take their family, friends, their dog for a one mile loop around a very attractive nature preserve which provides wetland habitat, upland habitat, over story oaks, prairie type, prairie looking habitat, it's going to be a very desirable amenity. Stolar: What trail's already in there already? The C and D areas? Hoffman: C and D trails are in. The trail is in the back side of what is called Trotter's and then the trail comes all the way up this side, so it's about halfway. And we knew if we didn't put those in when those homes went in, that would never happen. In fact one of the neighbors down in the area...came in the other day and said, when is that trail, anything going to happen or can we take it out. Atkins: Todd, how many acres is the commercial lot? The desirable one. Hoffman: This lot, oh I'm going to guess right around 5. Atkins' Would that be a site that potentially could be for the community center? Hoffman: Yes. Atkins: Because then what you're saying, and to have a mile path for people to use that site. Hofflnan' It's been identified in the site research. Stolar: And along those lines, the other thing we did in Eden Prairie was one area, the guy that worked for the city to get it zoned for more of the entertainment type thing, the restaurants and all of which case people can enjoy the scenery. There was no trail there but so people could actually observe and it was the Pickle Parrot. Part of the idea of that was that whole wetland area there is beautiful but how do we get people to enjoy it? So we try to zone around there so that it attracts people who would want to do things and community center's a great idea. Along these lines. Hoffman: This lot here has the availability for restaurant zoning. Stolar: So it might be something later on we could at least give an opinion to the city and say, be help to utilize this area then. And maybe allow us to use the parking. Hoffman: This lot sits up very high and access down to the trail system is difficult. This is up on a hill. This is down below with the trail down below...whereas this lot here is, in relatively close proximity and it has a trail right in front of it that runs down into this location. And then as you take a parking lot and you make a direct access to this trail, it starts to have some very good access. It's an exciting project. We've just been in a waiting mode. Waiting for those lots to develop because the city's development contract is binding that developer to build those trails. 31 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: It just seems a little premature really to put in something like a trail head or a parking lot into a system that's really not usable for that yet. Hoffman: We'll just bump them out to 2004-2005. Franks: Do that. Thanks. The other thing too when you look at the observation points, we might want to consider too doing them in a staging process, unless that's not cost effective in any way but really getting one in. Get people using the park. Have some understanding that they're really using it and then maybe add in 2 and 3. Alright, great. Rec Center. One thing that I see as really may be taking a serious look at BMX on one of the inline skating rinks. Hoffman: That's a good idea. O'Shea: And is there room to add any more cardiovascular equipment? Franks: We're talking not inside the rec center but we're really talking about the park. Rec Center park, but that's a good question. We're about maxed in our workout space right now. We probably need some more space. But I think the idea of getting that, using that inline skating rink, that's just had a great surface. Getting some use out of it and finding a good geographic separation between the skaters and the bikers I think would be a nice way to get both of those in the city. Without much conflict. Hoffman: Good idea .... come up with a budget for the ramps and include that in a future tabulation. Franks: Anything else on the Chanhassen Recreation Center Park? Well then City Center Park. Stolar: Didn't we talk about at the senior gardens, given what they're doing with some of the commons areas, to maybe hold off on that to see how that goes and whether it meets the need. O' Shea: Is the skate park considered in this park? Hoffman: ...I agree with you. O'Shea: And you know I know, I wasn't on the corrunission when you talked about this, and I brought it up before but looking at trying to produce revenue is key, and I know it was originally funded through tax dollars. I did some research on existing parks and from the middle of July to October, by just charging a nominal fee in White Bear, they raised between $40,000 and $45,000 net, and then they're earmarking that money and they're hoping to dome the area and then they'd have a year round program. That I thought possibly that might find out the feeling of the people that live in Chanhassen, but I think more people don't use the park than do, even though it's our most heavily used, that I think they'd rather see it not as a tax drain year after year. That maybe we could at a future time look at how we could make that a revenue generating program and then that money that's generated would go to improve a dome and I think they said their staffing, it's one of the easiest program areas to staff. You know again I don't know from city to city if that follows what they' ve experienced but I think that's when we're looking at funds being less and less, that area I think we shouldn't just pass over. That we maybe should look at it a little closer to see if that could be a generating, revenue generating area. Because I do think we really need to continue to enhance that area. And also look at the problems with behavior out there too and how can we control that and make it a state of the art park. 32 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: I have in 2002 Todd, money was designated for the skate park. Hoffman: Yes. Utilized it on fencing and the shelter and then we were going to attempt, or wanted to add .another ramp but the additional fencing enclosing it all the way around used up the dollars and the landscaping. The stairway and the shelter. Franks: So to, we're looking at what, about a $15,000 investment to buy equipment of substance? Hoffman: 15 to 20, and I think we're going to shift away from all wood and go to the newer ramps which are metal and then they have the composite material, the plastic and the skate light on the surface. Just for longevity. The skate park has proven itself, we might as well buy the good stuff at this point. Franks: Yeah. I like the idea of, boy you know if we, doming it. If we had that field house as a part of any kind of rec center development and to set aside possible portions of that for year round skating park use, since we have the equipment and it just sits underneath the snow during the winter anyway, that would be an interesting use of that equipment. But part of my feeling on revenue generation is if we're offering something that's special, which would be more I think than what type of level. Hoffman: Tier I. Franks: Tier I. If we go above Tier I, then I think we're offering something that's above and beyond just you know, walk up off the street recreation. We could consider. Hoffman: Tier I is 3 feet and below. Tier II is the big stuff. The 9 foot ramps and hook and what do you call it, underpass which is in Hopkins. Franks: Is it something that we should continue to look at. Hoffman: Maybe the discussions about charging and should it be built with park dedication money, that discussion took place at the commission. In Chaska they said if you want to build this, you're going to have to raise your own money. And a commission at the time felt very strongly that no, we pay for playgrounds. We pay for ballfields. We pay for soccer fields. This is a use which is targeting a section of our citizens that we've been ignoring. We're going to pay for their park and we're going to build it for them and we're going to let them use it. So then to say now we're going to charge those people is again, you know it's a philosophical thing. Well then should we charge to use a ballfield or a soccer field? So it starts getting back into that. It would be a great avenue. We've got it fenced. It's very easy to go ahead and make money there, but it's that philosophical notion of now simply because we can, should we? Or should we again allow that to be free to the public and you're going to make money out of non-resident people right now, it' s probably half of the people that are not from Chanhassen that utilize that facility. So that's a good way to cash revenue. A good way to look at it. But then the other kids that are Chanhassen residents, should you go ahead and charge them for a facility where you generally provide all other recreation facilities for kids. O'Shea: One thing you could do though, this gets a little chippy, with that and I thought of that. How can you get around that? If you domed it, you know took out a 10 year bond from the city, you dome it, then you say to those people you get in free during the summer, but Chanhassen 33 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 residents but everybody else pays. That' s just one way you could possibly avoid the philosophical fight but. Franks: I think it's something that we need to continue to look at and consider. It's an issue I think that's in process as the city evolves and the needs for recreation and finances evolve too so, but I think in the near term we really, as you're saying, need to continue to expand the facilities there regardless of what we choose to do with looking at generating revenue. Stolar: Mr. Chairman? Franks' Yes. Stolar: Quick question. Do we, I apologize. I probably will have to leave soon because I have an early flight tomorrow morning. I did postpone mine until first thing in the morning, but I know that there are a couple of other items that David had brought up, just high level. If we can just plow through some of those and see if anyone has anything very specific that they want to hit. Franks: We can sure do that. Hoffman: Do you have a copy of those? A copy of David's comments? Franks: Out in rny briefcase but not here. Hoffman: I've got them. Stolar: I think talked about Kerber Pond. Didn't think the signage was, thought that was a luxury. Push it out. And I would agree. Franks: I would agree as well. Stolar: And I think in general we've made a statement that the sand volleyball courts in general would be on a as requested basis. Hoffman: He had a question about the Lake Ann Park road. Lake Ann Park road is in terrible condition. It does not represent the city in a good light based upon the quality of that park that we have in our city. The road just drags it down. Dave wanted to hold off until we just had this conversation about the high school or community center, and that's a good thought, but half of the park really cannot be utilized for those type of facilities unless you buy another Lake Ann Park somewhere else in the city to replace it because those lands were purchased with federal LAWCON dollars. So there's Lake Ann, the lake on the north side, and the...part of the south. This portion of Lake Ann Park was all purchased with federal dollars. LAWCON grant money, so you have access through this parcel of park which was purchased using just general city tax dollars. Actually a referendum. This part you can use, it's wide open for community use or change in the use. You could take out these ballfields and put in a community center. Take out these ball fields and put them in as part of a high school, but if you want to utilize this plan, at least how I understand it today, I do not believe a school or a community center would meet the intent of the LAWCON legislation that was used to purchase the property. And this is the old road needs replacement. It's 30 years old and it needs a full replacement or overlay. 34 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Stolar: I guess to me, this is a fairly straight forward question and I thought the consensus here was, that's not a use of park trail fees, but that we do believe, and I don't know how we want to bring it up at a future meeting, that the city should fix it because it is our showcase park. Hoffman: Correct. Stolar: And I'd be willing to. Hoffman: ...philosophy. Stolar: Right, and I think I'd be willing to make some sort of statement in a future meeting, maybe our next meeting, to that effect. Take it off our list as we've done, but make a statement to the city that we believe that, like any other road that needs maintenance, this road needs maintenance and it's one that's a showcase. Hoffman: There's other items where the Kerber Pond Park, $10,000 for interpretative signs. My reply was, we have about $100,000 worth of interpretative signage down the road at the Arboretum. At the Arboretum, if people want interpretation they can go to the Arboretum. It would be a nightmare for us to maintain and we do not have the expertise in-house to produce interpretative signage so we would be out consulting for that. Roundhouse Park, he talked about the round house. Again in it's park master plan has a hockey/in-line and then an ice rink all in the one similar to North Lotus Park or the rec center or here at City Center, where you put hockey boards up with asphalt and lights, so you can use it in summer and winter. We have not experienced the summer use on those rinks that we thought we would see, and so David is talking about that. Should we one, put in the hockey rink there? Should we two, put in asphalt for summer use, and then put in lights? Again, the neighborhood is not knocking our doors down and so I really don't think we need to program it because it's just on the park master plan but nobody's asking for it at the present. And then he talked about the tennis courts at Roundhouse and you've already had that conversation. Stolar: And sand volleyball and playground Phase II, we talked about here... Franks: We're like minded on a lot of these issues as far as how we want to develop these parks out. Glenn, I know that you're pushed for time so if you want to run through anything more on your list. Stolar: No, I just wanted to confirm some of these statements that Dave said. I mean I guess philosophically in summary right, I think Phase II playgrounds ought to be focused on the community parks where it helps to enhance their utilization. Sand volleyball courts, and I'm a huge sand volleyball court, volleyball player, but they aren't getting use and they may be going by the wayside. Community park tennis courts, I think the same thing. As long as, or I'm sorry, neighborhood park. Unless there's a demand for those that's specific to that neighborhood, probably shouldn't be a part of the master plan, deferred indefinitely. I mean we've got to focus because we don't have a lot of money. And Lake Ann Park, I just think the road there really doesn't belong in this discussion. Hoffman' And it's not. Stolar: And it's not, it was taken off, but I do think we need to make a statement as the Parks and Rec Commission about how that is a part of how this park looks and in the city's planning of road repairs, that they should consider that. 35 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: I would agree. For the purposes of getting through our CIP, I'd like to set that issue as a separate issue and... Stolar: Yes, absolutely. Franks: Take it out of here now. Stolar: ...future meeting, talk about it as a separate motion of recommendation. I think we said, in our working session with the City Council we were going to maybe talk about it. Franks: I think that'd be an excellent place to bring that up. Hoffman: Do you guys have that on your calendar? I think it's September 30th. Is the joint meeting with the City Council. September 30th I believe. That's the date that the council has set up. Monday, September 30th, joint meeting with the City Council and Park and Rec Commission. And you will be setting the discussion points for that meeting and we'll do that at your July agenda. They generally have an hour with the commission and council that night. I'll just mark that as one of the issues. Franks: And Phase II in neighborhood parks, just to kind of go back a little bit, on a case by case basis if the demand rises up for it. Stolar: Yep, but I do support and I guess if we have to, and I ~know we aren't prioritizing here but in the brainstorming I think if we see other things that help utilize community parks, that we think are proactive, I would be in favor of those types of things. Whereas the...utilization, whereas the neighborhood parks, responsive yeah. That's a good way to put it. Franks: Great. Do you just want to take it from here too? Make sure we get all your comments in about any of the other parks. Stolar: Well the other ones, I mean and using those philosophies there' s several of these that then I think we keep pushing out. There's Sugarbush Park and Prairie Knoll, and again I'm assuming these are all additional play areas. Hoffman: Yep. Stolar: Not that they don't have one and not that their's is in disrepair. So all of those, North Lotus Lake, which is my neighborhood park, push sand volleyball courts out. Play on grass if we need to. Franks: And you can rent the volleyball nets from. Stolar: Oh I have the nets, don't worry. I have all the equipment. Franks: Alright. Stolar: Thank you and I apologize for having to book out. Hoffman: Where are you going tomorrow? 36 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Stolar: Where am I going? Hartford. Hoffman: Have a good flight. Franks: Thank you Glenn. Stolar: Thank you. Hoffman: Thanks for making the accommodations for being here tonight. We appreciate that. Franks: I'd just like to back up a little bit then to Herman Field Park. I don't really am not in favor of any immediate improvements as far as facilities in that park at this point. Until we can really come up with a solid plan of what we want to do with Herman Field. Hoffman: It's been put on hold. Franks: Way on hold, yep. And the overlook area on Kerber Pond Park. Hoffman: Have you seen it? Franks: No. Hoffman: Kerber Pond Park. Franks: I mean I've seen it on the drawing, but it's hard for me to, and the point of that? Hoffman' Same point as pulling off at, well just having access to it. You can park on the street, but they don't feel comfortable. Atkins: It's pretty dangerous. Hoffman: Yeah, so this is like a wayside rest. Franks: Well that was my thought. I thought well, you can park there. Atkins: You don't want to get out of the car though. Franks: Alright. If it was there, would people be pulling off accessing the trail do you think? Hoffman: Yes. Franks: Alright. The mowed grass trail at Pheasant Hill Park again, you know we're not doing that now are we? We're not mowing that trail at Pheasant Hill. Hoffman: Nope. Franks: Is that the one that runs along where the high line? No, that's not. Hoffman: This is like a nature trail. We've got to clear and grub it and clean it up. 37 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: See those are the types of things that I see that we can add at later dates when we're really improved out our parks to the max. And then really look, well what's the one more thing we can add. Hoffman: Or a Boy Scout project. Franks: Or a Boy Scout project, sure. Hoffman: Whoever comes in to do a community project. Franks: Again, same thing hockey rinks, tennis court. We've talked about that already. Roundhouse Park. The one thing that's not in here is the round house restoration but we' re hoping that the volunteer committee continues their work in that direction. Hoffman: Yeah, it's presently a committed project. Franks' And Lake Susan Park. The one thing that we might want to consider at some point in the future is really making the kind of beach that's developed there a real beach. Between the trail and the lake. From the canoe rack, I don't know, down...so that's something we might want to take a look at sometime this summer too. Hoffman: We can just do that. Franks: We can do that just like that? Hoffman: Just like that. Franks: Just us cutting out the grass and putting the sand in, letting it wash out. Hoffman: That's it. Franks: That method. Hoffman: Just a site visit and the park commission and you're there to see it happen and I'll check with the wetland regulations which we own a mile of shoreline so we can develop it. Buy ourselves a permit and do it. Franks: It just seems that's the one piece that's missing from that park. It has everything else. Boat, dock, shelter, play equipment, tennis courts, ballfields, everything except it's right there on a lake and there's no usable beach. Hoffman: ...my one hesitancy is it's kind of like inviting over the neighbors to, and you don't have the house, the house doesn't fit the neighbors because quite frankly Lake Susan isn't always fit for swimming. So you build in a nice beach and then you're inviting people to come to a beach and the next thing you're going to hear is, why did they put that beach in at Lake Susan? That water stinks and do something about the water or take the beach out. Franks: Well we did do something about it though. We did our alum treatment and we're doing our wetland and shoreline restorations. Hoffman: We're working on it but Lake Susan will never be a Lake Ann. I swam there once. 38 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: Mostly what we're seeing I think are the kids going in, little bits here and there and splashing around but. Hoffman: Let's take a swim some night Rod. Check it out. Franks: Out in the middle of the lake I will. Hoffman: No. We have to, we need to walk in right out of the weeds. See how far the mud squishes between our toes. Franks: Well that's what we want to get rid of. And the warming house at Sunset Ridge I think is off the map too. Off the map. So do you have all those comments? Hoffman: Ido. Franks: And do you want to take those and put them down on a projection? Hoffman' Yep. A 5 year projection. Franks' A 5 year projection for us. Hoffman: And some staff recommendations and you'll...continue to move forward on it. Franks: Ah'ight, we didn't talk about all the things like trash receptacles and plantings and trees and stuff like that so we'll just count on you to add those in. FINAL DRAFT~ CHANHASSEN COMMUNITY CENTER~ REQUEST FOR INFORMATION. Hoffman' Included that for information only. Franks: Appreciate that. Hoffman: It was the organizations. The council did make a point of pulling this off a consent agenda last night and adding in, I believe it was Glenn's comment about experience and so that has been added in and once we obtain all the addresses, this will be mailed early part of next week. Franks: Thanks for your work on that Todd. You did a nice job of summarizing everything we talked about. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS None. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS None. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET, Franks- Anybody have any comment regarding the administrative packet? One from me is Todd, on the taking it to the streets, clean up Chanhassen. I missed the promotion for that. Hoffman- Missed the promotion? 39 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 25, 2002 Franks: Yes. Hoffman: It's coming up. Franks: Oh, it's coming up. I know but obviously people are already signing up and getting ready to go. Hoffman: This is a project by Westwood and Dean Swanson came in to see me and it's during the PGA when Westwood gets kicked out of the high school and then Westwood is meeting at the soccer field at Instant Webb and Dean is coordinating this part of the project where his church, he takes a dozen families and they go out and they clean up parks. We give them maps and he' s all set and ready to go so it' s something that Westwood is doing. I' m not doing it. They're doing it. Franks: They're doing it, okay. Hoffman: It's their project. And we had a second one from St. Hubert Church where Janelle, I can't remember her last name. Hieckel is coordinating students and they're going to clean up 6 parks in the month of June and July and so again, give them park maps. Trash bags, a little letter of thanks and out they' re going to clean our parks and trails so. Franks: And this happens, they're contacting you to get this set up? Hoffman: Yes. Franks' This is not something that you're promoting as a program? Hoffman' No. We get this 3 to 4 times a year where community groups want to do volunteer work and they contact us. Franks: Great. I love hearing it. Alright, seeing no other cormnents on the administrative packet is there a motion to adjourn? Spizale moved, Atkins seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 40