1j. Planning Commission Minutes March 6, 1996.1
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
' REGULAR MEETING
MARCH 6, 1996
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Chairwoman Mancino called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
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MEMBERS PRESENT: Nancy Mancino, Bob Skubic, Craig Peterson, Ladd Conrad, Mike
Meyers, Don Mehl, and Jeff Farmakes
MEMBERS ABSENT: None.
STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Planning Director; Bob Generous, Planner II; Sharmin
Al -Jaff, Planner II; John Rask, Planner I; and Dave Hempel, Asst. City Engineer
PRELIMINARY PLAT APPROVAL TO SUBDIVIDE 1.22 ACRES INTO 2 SINGLE
FAMILY LOTS AND A VARIANCE TO ALLOW A 10' PRIVATE DRIVE LOCATED ON
PROPERTY ZONED RSF, RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND LOCATED AT 8508
GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD, TED SLATHAR, SLATHAR ADDITION.
John Rask presented the staff report.
Mancino: Thank you. Do any commissioners have a question of staff at this point? Okay,
thank you. Mr. Slathar, do you wish to come up?
Ted Slathar: I don't have much to add except that, that's our main concern too is to save the
trees, along with the neighbors and I believe the city's. And we'd like to do that... variance.
We planted those trees ... The other thing that I'd like to suggest, if I could is, in our last
meeting the sewer was an issue. Putting it next to the Gilman's house and we put a sewer
line right with the existing house, about 2 years ago we put in a sewer line that is on the west
side of the property and if it would be possible, we'd like to just connect that sewer line with
the Lot 1. And that would take care of any problems that might happen with the foundation
or the other concerns that you have.
Mancino: Okay. I think that is addressed on, I don't know if it's a condition but it is
addressed on page 6 of our staff report which says the 12 inch sanitary sewer trunk line runs
along the west lot line of Lot 2. The plans propose on extending two sewer services from the
existing trunk line to service Lots 1 and 2. Is that correct Dave?
Hempel: Partially. The existing sewer service to the existing home, I'm not quite sure where
that runs through the property. I thought it went right through the middle of the property. I
guess it would have to be relocated when the new house is built to Lot 2.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Ted Slathar: It's more on the west end Dave. It's, well if you can see on, it follows west
under the house. Then straight down to there. So on this side, it comes off of this corner
Dave and then goes down.
Hempel: I believe the building department codes also require separate sewer services for each
home because that's on a smaller sized pipe and it probably is capable of one residence only
on it but I could verify that with the building department.
Ted Slathar: Would it be possible Dave to make a pipe, or use a bigger pipe to service both?
Hempel: Again, I'd have to check with the building codes. They do require separate service
for each home, but there may be some exceptions.
Ted Slathar: At any rate, if we could put that on the west side, that would at :least clear up a
few problems.
Mancino: Of getting too close to the Gilman home and the foundation of the home. Okay
We can certainly put that in as a condition that the applicant will work with staff to locate
that sewer line and make sure that it can be, it can travel on the west side if at all possible.
Ted Slathar: If you want it on the east side, that's fine too...
Mancino: Thank you. Can we have a motion to open for a public hearing please?
Farmakes moved, Peterson seconded to open the public hearing. The public heating was
opened.
Mancino: Anyone wishing to address the Planning Commission on this issue? Seeing none,
may I have a motion to close the public hearing?
Farmakes moved, Peterson seconded to close the public hearing. The public heating was
closed.
Mancino: Comments from commissioners. Craig.
Peterson: I think that the direction that we gave the applicant at the last meeting was
adequately addressed. I think it certainly does minimize the number of trees ... last time so I'm
very comfortable with the plan as it stands.
Mancino: Okay, thank you. Ladd.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Conrad: No, nothing. Looks fine. Much better than the last time in.
Mancino: Mike.
Meyer: Nothing to add.
Skubic: Nothing to add.
Mancino: Jeff.
Farmakes: It's fine.
Mancino: Don.
Mehl: I have nothing to add either. I support the staff recommendation.
Mancino: I do too. I have nothing to add. May I have a motion please?
Peterson: I'd make a motion that the Planning Commission recommend the approval of the
preliminary plat for two lots, Subdivision 996 -3, Slathar Addition and a variance from Section
18 -57, private street standard subject to the plans dated February 28, 1996 and the conditions
1 through 11 with the additional condition that staff look into the viability of connecting the
sewer line on the west edge of the existing home and sharing the same sewer system.
Mancino: Is there a second?
Skubic: I'll second it.
Mancino: Thank you. Discussion.
Skubic: Staff has...
Mancino: Right, question for you. Are you suggesting that we, that the motion is for the
revised conditions of approval?
Peterson: Correct.
Mancino: Dated March 6, 1996. That includes 12 conditions and then you're adding a 13th?
Peterson: 13th.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Mancino: Okay. May I have a second for that friendly amendment?
Meyer: I'll second that.
Peterson moved, Meyer seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of the
preliminary plat for two lots (Sub #96 -3), Slathar° Addition, and a variance from Section IS-
57(o), Private Street Standards, subject to the plans dated February 28, 1996, and the
following conditions:
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1. Individual grading, drainage, tree removal and erosion control plans will be required by '
the City with building permit application for Lot 2.
2. No more than two (2) homes shall be served by the ten (10) foot wide private street.
The driveway may be expanded to twenty feet in the future to provide access to other
parcels subject to city ordinances and approval.
3. The applicant shall prepare a development plan prior to final plat consideration. The
development plan shall indicate the building type, and lowest floor, top of block and
garage floor elevations for each lot.
4. The exact alignment of the sanitary sewer service for Lot 1 (existing home) shall be
determined in the field. The applicant shall then prepare a private easement agreement
for the sanitary sewer and water lines which encroach each lot.
5. The applicant shall provide a private driveway easement over the northerly 20 feet of '
Lot 1 for access to Lot 2.
6. The existing dwelling on Lot 1 may continue to use the well until the well system fails
At that time the well must be properly abandoned in accordance with City and State
Health Department codes and the existing home then connected to city water.
7. The existing pines along Trunk Highway 101 shall be trimmed back to irnprove sight
lines. The existing driveway shall be paved. Cross - access and maintenance agreements
will need to be prepared and recorded against the lots.
8. Full park and trail fees shall be paid at the time of building permit approval in the
amount in force at the time of building permit application.
9. The applicant shall comply with the conditions recommended by the DNR. as stated in
the letter from Joe Richter dated February 7, 1996.
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Planning ommission Meeting - March 6 1996
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10. The applicant shall be responsible for SWMP water quality and water quantity
connection charges in the amount of $368 and $911, respectively. These fees are
payable to the city prior to recording the final plat.
11. Lot 2 will be subject to a sanitary sewer hook -up and connection charge and water
connection and hook -up charges in accordance with current city ordinance at time of
' building permit issuance.
12. Lot 2 will be subject to a sanitary sewer hook -up and connection charge and water
' connection and hook -up charges in accordance with current city ordinance at time of
building permit issuance.
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13. That staff look into the viability of connecting the sewer line on the west edge of the
existing home and sharing the same sewer system.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
CONSIDER SITE PLAN REVIEW APPROVAL OF A RETAIL BUILDING OF 8,321 SO
FT. AND A PARKING LOT SETBAC . VARIANCE ON PROPERTY ZONED PUD, AND
LOCATED ON LOTS 2 AND 3, BLOCK 1, MARKET SQUARE, MARKET SQUARE 3
PARTNERS, INC., AMCON CORPORATION
Sharmin AI -Jaff presented the staff report on this item.
Mancino: So were you able to work with the applicant during this last two weeks on the
sign? And where the signs go on the frontage? I mean one of the things was we asked for
the applicant to work with staff on this.
Al -Jaff: One of the concerns that we have is if we allowed a variance on the signage to add
more than two facias of signage on the building, then we have the potential of Wendy's
coming in and requesting signage on a third side. The same could happen with the Edina
Realty's building, and that's what we're trying to avoid.
Mancino: So the other Market Square I, II, the other additions.
AI -Jaff: Could come in and request.
Mancino: But right now they are all following the PUD.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Al -Jaff. Correct.
Mancino: And the city ordinance.
Al -Jaff: Correct.
Mancino: Kind of one and the same. Okay.
Sharmin AI -Jaff continued with hei° staff repoit,
Mancino: And what we lack is having staffs review at this time?
Aanenson: That's correct.
Mancino: And seeing it prior to our presentation too. A lot of times we will get drawings
prior to Planning Commission night so that we can review it ourselves, the Planning
Commission, or come over to City Hall to review it so we haven't been able to do that, nor
has staff been able to do a review either. We'll go ahead and have their presentation and
have the time to review and if we would like to ask staff to do a formal review, we can do
that at that time. Okay. Thank you. Does the applicant wish to address the Planning
Commission?
Vernelle Clayton: I'm Vernelle Clayton. I live at 422 Santa Fe Circle here in Chanhassen
and we're here to take our proposal off the table for the purpose of discussing the three items
that were taking ... to the table. One, the materials for the... Materials for the building.
Additional signage options. Bill Brisley, our architect with Amcon will be showing and
discussing all of these. I should perhaps mention that while we are now two weeks away
from the last Planning Commission and your office is wondering why we didn't get this...
what we've done included in your packet. The deadline for submitting our... was two days
after the last Planning Commission meeting... Secondarily... dealing with materials involves
seeing, touching ... and we wanted to have a little more time... First I'd like to discuss the
owner's perspective... retaining wall is... We've eliminated plans for concrete block and put
up ... faced block with a color... Our approach to the signage question is more complex. We
will be showing you an alternative. We haven't come up with an...PUD requirements, the city
ordinance and... materials for the building itself-after discussions among ... and the staff we
concluded that (a), there was no clear presumption that a totally new set of materials was
anticipated. That was an option to explore and (b), that... additional materials to be used and
then ... We will be showing you, reflect our consideration of all the options. Our conclusions
are, (a), we will be showing you that stucco is the appropriate primary material for the outer
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' portion of the building. (b), that rough faced block is the appropriate material for the lower
foundation portion of the building and the retaining walls to match. Within that we ... some
modifications and include some changes in color densities... I'd like to premise Bill's
' presentation by providing some additional background for this project. Two weeks ago I
proposed a building which appears to be part of a larger shopping center... along West 78th
Street. I still believe that's true. I will also submit that someone else might make a
' convincing case that assuming there were no shopping center located in place, it would like
nice along West 78th with three distinctly similar building. Distinctive buildings. Three
small buildings, each different. Each ... But I believe this building will also accomplish that
goal that ... What we're doing is finishing the shopping center. We're filling... city and the
developer already have commitments and agreements set up. The city ... putting limitations on
architecture and on materials... that we should be able to rely on that agreement as well. We
believe that's what the Planning Commission... We're saying yes, we agree with you. We are
bringing the plan that shows consistent architecture and materials. We want it to look like
one shopping center and that is what we are compelled to do. The city benefits in that the
' plans... The materials we are using are the same as those for the shopping center. Colors we
are using are virtually the same as in the shopping center but we have more of them. In
addition, materials that we are using are the same as those which are being used up and down
' West 78th Street and ... the evaluation must include all of the commercial area. There's
nothing... simply a part of a commercial downtown area. Furthermore... located is a
commercial tenant. A tenant exclusive for development of retail building. Nothing other than
' that which is being proposed... Market Square is not a mixed use PUD... It is commercial retail
PUD. The staff report to Council on October 18th... referring to what the city got in the
earlier PUD. Quote, he current plan offers much in exchange including higher quality
' architectural design ... It also provides for consistent, that's an important word, and well
planned development of two free standing buildings and ultimately of Outlot A. It went on to
say the plans... prepared to build. After reviewing them we are satisfied that the building
offers a higher degree of architectural design. I would like you to know parenthetically here
that we all get compliments, and still get compliments... While the agreement referring to
' Outlot A said, quote, the design and materials used on any structures will be compatible with
the shopping center building, and we wrestled with that... The plan then being reviewed
back... At that time ... on tonight's site was evaluated on the basis that it's quote, architectural
' detailing promotes a visual identification with the main shopping center building. The
evaluation went on to say, quote staff expects to use a PUD designation to—with
architecturally compatibility to the shopping center and for... provided. When we proposed
Market Square II, we struggled to determine what compatible meant and the Planning
Commission determined that the building... was compatible. The word consistent and the
criteria of visual identification of the main shopping center however further defines the
' current development. Consistent means that ... and compatible but also means holding to the
same principles and practice. Compatible on the other hand is less specific... What we got is
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
the Edina building... somewhat compatible, is something less than we had intended and which
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does not hold to the same principles and... contained in Market Square I and was our intent for
the development of Lots 2 and 3 when the PUD was created. We don't intend to do that... It's
not that we didn't build a nice looking building... identify as a part of the main shopping
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center ... It was not a good thing to do for the shopping center. The ... whether or not it
complies with the PUD... materials, textures, colors and details of construction as an
expression of the design concept and compatibility of the same with the adjacent... Clearly
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our choice of materials make a further expression of the design concept and the test as to
compatibility must first be a standard set for the PUD ... We submit that the Planning
Commission perceived Market Square to the Market Square II building to be compatible with
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Market Square, then this building, which is ... of Market Square I, by the same measure, must
be compatible with Market Square II... By the same token, it must have been the conclusion
that the Richfield Bank met the compatibility test with respect to the ... to the east, Market
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Square I, then Market Square III as proposed must basically be pre - determined to be
compatible with Richfield Bank... compatibility aside, Richfield Bank with it's inherent
uniqueness of design, is able to stand alone in the city as a one of a kind, quality condition.
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The code book section of architectural standards states that the code is not ... However it is in
the best interest of the city to ... design with compatibility ... With that background... I'd like to
talk a little more about compatibility and a little about the needs of the primary tenant ... We
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continue with some of the buildings near by our project. Just beyond this building is
a ... building. Across the street we have a park. To the east is a brick bank building. Again, a
high quality, city standard type building. Also to the east are two wooden builldings,one with
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rock face block trim and the other one with brick trim. In short, there is no absolute standard
for compatibility within our building's immediate vicinity that, and there's no standard that we
believe... summer plantings are color coordinated... Market Square has a good reputation...
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People like to go there ... it doesn't just happen. The materials and light and bright. The
burgundy awnings are a warm color ... In considering Market Square's... You may have noticed
that all the buildings at the James' site have a very similar look, both in design and materials.
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That is being done only on site plan review. Here we have a PUD ... It is important that each
shopping center have an identity, marking it down shopping center by shopping; center and
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shoppers need to know how to... Our proposed building is light, airy, friendly and is
consistent with Market Square... light, friendly and cheerful, people like to come there... It also
has to be flexible. Ideas on what's on fun. What's the right color. What's the right texture...
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or absolutely nothing at all. Trying to change... Retail has to be on the cutting edge of those
changes. Therefore the construction has to be flexible. The entire ... To receive the advantage
of the ... On the subject of ..material I should say that we met with the residents after the last
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meeting and they do not want... They are totally convinced that brick should not be used ... We
also say that we have... Our mission was to review the materials. In doing so however, we
felt we should give brick some consideration. At the time we were designing the different
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materials, we prepared an evaluation of materials to use and each of them ... as , part of
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' development and re- development of downtown Chanhassen. We have prepared a chart that...
findings are that (1), wood is used on ... buildings, mostly the first buildings...as part of the
redevelopment... Stucco has been used on six of the 21 buildings, 4 of which were approved
' in 1995. Brick has been used either as a primary material or a trim on a number of the
buildings... we are coming... close to having entirely too much brick on buildings... warm and
friendly downtown. We would also like to point out that ... The green ... Ind' cate a rock face
' foundation pretty much throughout and yellow indicates brick... The red is stucco and blue
is ... on these two buildings on this end and two of the...
' Mancino: Vernelle, what's the new entertainment center going to be? Is that mostly brick
and stucco?
I Vernelle Clayton: Yes. Stucco, stucco, brick, brick, brick.
Mancino: Okay.
' Vernelle Clayton: And I put this one in ... in reality it's a depiction of the fact that we have a
number of small buildings... we have not had total success with all of them. This is why.
' This is what you see when you're driving west and this is what you see... I think you have
copies of this report in the... We'd like to show you now our ... and then I'll come back...
' Bill Brisley: My name is Bill Brisley, an architect with Amcon, a Market Square III partner.
We're returning to the Planning Commission tonight with a proposal for a stucco and rock
faced block building with some changes, some additions, some clarifications, and some
' justification. We feel strongly about the positive value of a stucco building in Chanhassen
and I will tell you why. We have responded to a perception that the gray look of the main
structure is too cold and have responded accordingly with an attempt to warm up the project
with color and crisp detail and material changes. We're also ... that the Commission did not
really have the opportunity to see what the building would really look like, and we've
addressed that issue with a large color rendering with all the changes and additions
incorporated in it. The building material known as drivit or stucco or plaster or effice, is a
quality material that has been clearly used by architects and buildings for decades in our area,
' and actually centuries in other parts of the world. It is compatible with brick, stone, glass,
and metal. It's use can be found on buildings of quality in any community. When you
picture a high end, traditional, old neighborhood like Kenwood near Lake of the Isles, around
' Lake Harriet, or even old Edina located west of 50th and France, you'll find as much as 30%
of the buildings with stucco as their exterior wall material. Of the quality building materials
used in those neighborhoods, stone, brick, stucco and wood, stucco is considered to be a
' permanent, maintenance free product which is generally regarded closer to brick and stone
relative to quality. Today this is commercially used for similar reasons. Durability,
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flexibility, design appeal. Any shape that can be formed out of wood or styrofoam can be
surfaced with stucco. Architects like it because you can create neo- traditional building
elements such as detailed... cornices, interesting window heads and sills, wall bases and...
These elements once only cut from stone or painstakingly pieced together with brick, can
easily be created with stucco and can take on some of the characteristics of their stone
predecessors. A marvelous example of this is found on the new Gap store on the corner of
Lake and Hennepin. As a wall material stucco is light and clean, in a spiritual sense. But
when used skillfully today can enliven and elevate the mood of the building to a warm, sunny
ambience. It is in this spirit of a light and inviting sense of place that the Redmond's strongly
desire to maintain this material on their new salon, Capelli. The following videotape will
show examples of buildings in other communities that have embraced this building material as
a quality choice. It also brings to mind the intentions of the owners... As an architect I'm
convinced that quality, permanence and fresh and innovative design issues is at the heart of
each of these buildings. The first building is D'Amico. A new million dollar renovation in
Uptown. These people had any choice of material at their disposal and this is what they
chose to do for reasons similar to... This building is ...Gallery in Edina. 50th and France. It's
placed right between Teja's and some other brick buildings. It's completely compatible on the
site. You can't see the difference in quality. They're all different... This is the Collective
Salon in Edina, 50th and France. All stucco except for a wood insert.
Mancino: The entire middle ... is wood and glass.
Bill Brisley: The valance changes the color... Dayton's at Southdale. Completely stucco...
very minor details out of marble. This is Uno across from Dayton's on France. A lot of
detailing here. This next one is a Room and Board. A little cleaner look... This is ... across
from the Galleria. This last one is the Infinity dealership in Bloomington where ... white brick
buildings, all brick buildings, it's kind of a compliment to that. This is all stucco, all the way
around. Now I'd like to review the new rendering here and I'd like to describe some of the
things that we've done. We added, what we did not have before we added sonic lines ... that
will catch shadows here, here and all along the... We also reduced the amount of coping and
created this out of stucco and so the opening will be as a sign band from top to bottom and
that will around the curved section as well. We changed the stucco from a white, rather cold
material that we used on the ... to a much warmer gray. I have two colors. One is used behind
the canopies. Inbetween the piers, the white piers and the other is...on the larger face...
Mancino: Would you show us where those are please?
Bill Brisley: It's hard to see in here but that would be in there and in there, in the slot and
then inside here. Unfortunately something happened to the—and knocked that off ...but there
would be a line right there with a little darker...
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Mancino: So the recessed are going to have the darker color?
Bill Brisley: Yes. To make them look deeper.
Mancino: To add more dimension.
Bill Brisley: To add more dimension.
Mancino: And then the sides of the recessed will be light but it's just going to be that.
Bill Brisley: Except they're—into this darker line behind. These are darker and then behind
the canopies, because the canopies are endless. Without end so you can see ... define that point.
Find the ... As you can see by their absence here, it appears that it kind of sails off and it
would be much stronger... The rock faced block is a much more ... We're buying from Sheely
who make the Keystone products so our retaining wall and our foundation block of the
building we'll get that... As for rock faced block, this building material. One of the things
that we liked about it is the texture match to our existing center, even though it's a little
warmer. It has a distinct foundation as a grounding or base for a building. It's thicker and...
The texture is representative of a ... stone wall... The architectural community has accepted this
product wholeheartedly ... with brick all the time. A little wider down below so it gets
stronger. These are kind of some of the reasons to justify using this particular product. It
will be identical to the retaining wall, just as I said before. Now let me discuss what we've
done with the site plan. Vernelle's already mentioned... The two lines here you see. That old
line is where the curb is now. The inside line. This outside line here is what a 26 foot ... and
then all the curbs are adjusted to fit that. I should mention, the stairway's moving over here,
down here so it's right in line. It's difficult because this is very steep in here and this
retaining wall right here so ... directly up with this part ... And then on staffs recommendation I
added, all along this entire retaining wall are intermittent groups of climbing vines, facing
south so there will be rock faced block and then vines, rock faced block and vines...
Mancino: If we're talking Italian, are there going to be vines on the building?
' Bill Brisley: ...On signage and lighting, what we're recommending is that we do use all four
sides. But as indicated on the elevation board, we do have a hardship with Capelli, the front
door... If we're restricted to two sides, Capelli would not have their sign over the front door,
' because the two most obvious places to have signage is on the north side and the south side.
And the last tenant, because he couldn't have it on the north side, nor the east side,...really
' only have one sign and that would be facing... another hardship for us. What we're
recommending, signage as indicated on the elevation board, based on typographic sensibility
and balance with respect to the specific wall rather than objective ordinance specification, and
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
they are reduced somewhat from our first request. We hope to have all four walls as shown
for this conception and variance from the city we would be willing to paint the sign and
wash, and use a wash light for the sign at night with an upscont type lighting or some other
inward facing lamp mounted on ... or standards. This will make the signs much more subtle
and attractive and wholly a part of the architecture. The lighting would light up each section
of the building above the canopy. The center section... three per wall adding a third
characteristic to the night view of the building. The lettering would be painted in such a way
that with the shadows and contrasting edges, that it would appear to be etched in stone with a
chisel... Right off the rendering but it won't show you what that would be like just with the
paint. We would be willing to have the commission put this item aside and come back if we
have to, to allow more research to be done on lighting types and a night rendering subsequent
...occurring showing exactly what the effect would be. Lighting on the north wall is the same
quality and density as on the walls in Market Square I as it's dealing with the... That lighting
is exactly the same interval as we have on the center so how the center sidewalk is lit is
exactly how we... It might either be stronger because... There are two alternative material
options that we looked at and ... to illustrate that. This is the retaining wall... One of our
alternatives, that it be an 8 x 16 brick foundation and remove the rock faced block. We'd like
to have it in the same color as what you see in the rendering. What I don't like about that is
the flatness. It's smoothness... the heavy face of the foundation but I think it could be... I have
a picture that kind of shows what that would look like and then a brick foundation. A second
possibility would be a brick foundation and brick vertically between the building masses. I
would like to see two colors and sizes... smaller and lighter color as it goes up between, the
same areas where we're going to have to have our stucco... I'm not pleased with those. I
think it's impure for the building itself but I've seen it done. That's a possibility.
Mancino: And do you have renderings of that?
Bill Brisley: I don't have a rendering but I have a sketch... This is one of the considerations
that I looked at was that I would take the foundation block all the way up and I thought that
was very cold and strong and boring with it so high in the air. But you can imagine that that
would be, if that were brick going up between these two. The stucco elements would come
all the way as if they were a building that's stronger and more hard ... and the lighter elements
coming forward and shooting out. Like I said, one would be just go completely with brick,
as the foundation. The second option would be to go all the up between. Another issue the
city had was, did you want to talk about signage? ...talk about being a 30 inch versus 36.
Mancino: Let's just see the difference.
Bill Brisley: 30 inch, it's very subtle but that 6 inches, that two lines I lose a lot. It flattens
Capelli. If you look at the rendering and look at it here. To have it fill out this space,
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typographically is was ... I have to squash down Capelli to make it Bt within that 30 inches.
1 It's an aesthetic issue anyway and I just really wonder if that 6 inches is such... But that's
what it looks like with 30. And that about wraps it up for me, unless there's any questions.
i Mancino: Any questions at this time?
' Farmakes: The facing brick that you're showing down there. That's what's the dark tan that
we see worked into the retaining wall and the base right there.
' Bill Brisley: 4 feet here, 5 foot...
Farmakes: But now, showing kind of a rough cut there, and the sample that you're showing
' here is kind of a wavy.
Bill Brisley: That's the retaining wall and this is the building wall. The retaining wall has
this shape added... Keystone.
Farmakes: Why the changing of the shape? Why not, can you be consistent with the shape
' down there?
Bill Brisley: That's a possibility. This is a product that Keystone makes that looks like that.
' The way it's shaped... There's an Allen block that gives this shape. They all have to have
some kind of..
Mancino: Bill, I have one question. What is the... the little squares. As clean and as simple
as that design is, now we have these little squares underneath the lights.
' Bill Brisley: That's a design element that came from the original shopping center. They're
ceramic tile or a material called Spectaglare. Kind of a ceramic tile ... kind of a concrete
block... We put that on Market Square ... so all of the lights are exactly... Medallion pattern and
the gooseneck burgundy lamp. It's virtually the same...
Mancino: But the reason why you had that on Market Square I is, for when you have those
peaked areas, and I don't know what those are called. They needed some sort of architectural
element and they used the squares there to give an architectural element. Do you feel that
' that's still needed here?
Bill Brisley: That's a real strong tie-in ... has a unique aspect to their business. They were
' going to provide us with... materials. I think the tie -in is the most important thing. The
combination of the lighting and the tile...
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Mancino: Any other questions at this time?
Mehl: Yeah. From the last time that we were talking about this, and we determined that that
wall in the parking lot was going to be about 6 feet tall. Is there any limitations with this
Keystone block as to how high you can go?
Bill Brisley: It will work, 5 -6 something like that. We're doing 4. It has to be engineered
And then when they do that, they put in a fabric that attaches to the block and runs back
underneath the dirt so the dirt holds that down...
Mehl: But doesn't the wall have to be slanted back...
Bill Brisley: A little bit ... if they're engineered, they can go straight up.
Mehl: Okay, thank you.
Mancino: Any other questions at this time? Thank you.
Dale Almquist: Good evening. Dale Almquist from Redmond Products, 28930 West 78th.
Last time I was here, well first of all I wanted to say as far as the materials of the building, I
certainly understand the vote the Planning Commission has in a recommendation but I hope
you will also consider Redmond's vote that we are doing quite a bit behind this product. We
think very highly of the way that the owner has designed it and planning to build it. It's a
beautiful building and we're putting an awful lot into it... As far as the signage, I'm here to
make the same speech I made two weeks ago... compelling reason why this should be a
variance issue. But I think two weeks ago we were asking for signs on only three sides of
the building... we're asking for the fourth. That's the difference. We think that there is a very
good reason, and I'm going to repeat what it was two weeks ago and then add to that. This is
not a building with a front and a back. It's a four sided building that has four very important
exposures. In a sense four front sides. The side facing West 78th. Then the side facing the
rest of the shopping center. And on our front entrance, which is of course very important to
us. That we have a sign above our own front door. I'm going to ask you to put yourselves in
our shoes, which of those three sides would you give up if you were us? If you were forced
to have only two. But the way we dealt with it, I think we try to deal with it as creatively as
possible and to think of the reason behind the ordinance which I think is more of an aesthetic
one rather than well, if you allow one person to do it, everybody's going to ask: for it. We try
to keep aesthetics in mind as a primary consideration and I think we came up with a very
creative solution, and that is to make the sign look like it's actually been etched in the
building. Carved, chiseled into the building. And very pleasantly lit at night with that
illumination. It's not going to be your typical commercial backlit canopies stuck on the side
14 1
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' Planning Commission Meeting March 6 1996
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of a building. It's going to have a very unique and elegant look. In no way garish and in no
way overly emphasized and sticking a person in the eye but it's going to send a really specific
and nice message I think to both community and customer that's a very elegant site. We
' really are begging for that. I don't know what else to do but that's very important to us to
have that signage on three sides. When you say that ... so thank you very much.
' Vernelle Clayton: I guess I don't have to explain why we were saying three ... and now four.
Because of the change in the type of signs and the fact that they ... blend in with the building
so we'd like to have one on the north side, one on the west, one on the cast ... look better than
' one here and one here. This one on three sides. Not on the side that faces the ... we'd be
happy to work with staff for another couple weeks and bring some definition to it. We'd like
to, for you to separate that issue from the rest ... so with that, I guess we're going to say
briefly... Market Square is at ... Market Square III is a part of that shopping center so this... The
building needs to look much more like Market Square than Market Square II and we need
to... It will house an exciting new concept in marketing for Chanhassen, brought to us by one
of our most highly regarded ... It will be an exciting addition to Market Square and ... intent of
the comprehensive plan in achieving excellence and originality of design, as well as assuring
that there's a plan for the PUD ... Thanks very much.
Mancino: Vernelle, I have just a couple questions, and I don't know if Bill would like to
answer them too. One of the, I went over and took a look at Market Square I and one of the
things that I saw with the stucco, because you have used stucco over there. You've used
wood on the top. You've used on the back of it just block, etc. So there are quite a different
materials there. I did notice with the stucco that when you change signs, so that when there
is a new tenant and there may be this, that it leaves quite a stain on the stucco. And I also
saw that the lettering, the signage underneath on the stucco, underneath the signage, there was
a lot of discolor on the stucco also. Is there any way to eliminate that on this building?
Because I'm thinking of this long term. I mean this is going to be in Chanhassen for 40 years
and do you just need to re- stucco the surface all the time? What is the maintenance,
especially when you're putting on new signs and you're asking for pretty good size signage.
Vernelle Clayton: Of course if we go with the second alternative, that would not be the
same issue. Then we would ... using the same material for the sign... I don't know that that's a
real good answer for that sign. It's just as ... almost works when you take the signs on brick.
I'm not saying that's...We have a rule at Market Square II that the only place you can attach
signs is to the grout, and that helps some but they don't always follow the rules. It's a
problem with wood... Changing signs are a problem. I suspect the only real way to solve is it
to repaint the whole area where the sign was removed... We can of course fill up the holes
and we should ... Do you have anything else to add about...?
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Planning Commission Meeting e March 6, 1996
Bill Brisley: Well I think the thing to do is for ... it is a very thin scale on the stucco material
Almost the last coat. These systems are sometimes 10 deep. It's the very last thing they do
is they put the color on it. They call it dashing.
Mancino: Okay, dashing. So there could be something in our conditions about the
maintenance above the signage, etc and the stucco. And I did notice some peeling off, some
big pieces of stucco off near Festival Foods too on, I think it's on the columns, etc. So I was
thinking about maintenance, etc.
Vernelle Clayton: We've had a terrible time... We've had ... done about three times.
Bill Brisley: Those are made out of fiberglass and plaster combination. They're kind of a
prototype and there's something funny about those particular ones because we have them
elsewhere and they're not peeling. So that's getting...
Mancino: The plaster adhering to the.
Bill Brisley: The paint can't adhere to plastic. It's just keeps popping off. It's the paint that's
coming off.
Farmakes: The biggest thing that you're proposing is, it's in the material correct? The
coloration?
Bill Brisley: Yes.
Mancino: Of the stucco.
Bill Brisley: It's the final coat. The coloration.
Farmakes: Right. It's not ... the Italian restaurant that you showed at the beginning which was
painted.
Mancino: Yeah, it has kind of a faux finish on the...
Bill Brisley: That was a really expensive wall.
Mancino: Thank you. Open this to a public hearing. May I have a motion please, and a
second.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Fwmakes moved, Skubic seconded to open the public healing. The public hewing was
opened.
Mancino: Anyone wishing to address the Planning Commission at this time, please do.
Seeing none, may I have a motion to close the public hearing. And a second.
Meyer moved, Fwmakes seconded to close the public hewing. The public healing was
closed.
' Mancino: Comments. Questions from commissioners. And I think that most of the
comments will center around the three main points that Vernelle brought up tonight. One is
in materials and the architecture and design of the building. That we ask for further
exploration. And the signage and whether we want to wait on that and see more detail. And
the third item was the retaining wall materials, used for the retaining wall. Jeff if you would
like to start on this?
Farmakes: The credibility for arguments is understandable. You talk about the ... you have
civic on one side and you have this on the other and the PUD issue, inevitably they're going
to have that because you have the ... You have an area where the public has an interest. And
certainly the position of this property is somewhat penalized by that. It's adjacent to civic
property. It's a concern I think. Now the applicant I think has done a good job of taking
what the critique was and coming back with essentially the same shape building but dealing
with the issues of modifying the materials into the detail. It's a good example there, it really
doesn't require a whole lot adding to the building to create a lot more character to the
building, and that's really what the issue is ... standard strip mall type building or is there
something extra to it. And how the foundation structure, the stone has been integrated now
into the retaining wall is good. Very good. The material, the rough cut of the material is
also very good. It creates a texture to it. It gives it character. It counteracts the smoothness
of the stucco up above, which is broke up by these recessed areas also... Gives it character.
When the sun changes in town, it makes it interesting. The issue of stucco, you spent a lot of
time talking about stucco. I don't think that there's really a problem or criticism with stucco
as much as the color and the argument being made that it's a continuation of gray from the
Market I area. That was an absolute. The problem I have with that is that out of the retail
argument, that's not an open air shopping center. Any place in Chanhassen in reality, retail is
a destination shopping. People don't wander up and down the concourse to shop. They just
don't... If you look at the reality of the situation in town, and other suburbs, it's destination
shopping. You go to Festival Foods because you need groceries. You need bread. Pick up
the stuff and you may drop off something at the mail place or pick up an ice cream cone but
you're out of there, and they're short periods of shopping. I'm not sure that the argument...
that I'm seeing tonight is a sort of a build -up of that. Where we're saying the building's going
17
Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
to somewhat change. The color's changed. I'm seeing it as a different building. I'm not
seeing it as a continuation. So I think it's been modified. Although that was not a
requirement, and to confuse everybody but that was not a requirement, I think a big deal of
what our criticism was. I just didn't feel that it was a compelling reason to say that that
should be a... So I don't want to spend a lot of time talking about that. I think that what's
nice about this, again is that it chose but without increasing a great deal the cost of the
building, some of these simple things being done to the building that really creates a nicer
building than what was here. Some modification to the color. I think the color's much better.
I think it's much more current and I think we can, hopefully use some of that to—early 80's
retail thinking out of this picture and try to come up to the situation where the public
appreciates this. The public appreciates it and they associate this with disposable income.
They perceive the value of this buildings are higher, that the businesses in them. And
hopefully we can continue to do that and I think we tried to do that in a couple of the out
buildings here. I think we were very successful with Wendy's. I think we were limitedly
successful with the other building but again, that was kind of a mix and match trade off type
situation. I really like, as I said before, how the retaining wall ... creates kind of a wavy band
or wavy pattern. But I would like to offer that if you consider cap stoning this. It's nice how
that would be in relationship to the cap stone ... and possibly being a lighter color with the dark
color. Again, that's the issue now...
Mancino: And you talk about compatibility with the rest of the Richfield and with the bank
that's to the west.
Farmakes: In terms of signage?
Mancino: Well actually materials, etc.
Farmakes: Well, they're real consistent. I don't think it's to be interpreted as the same as. Sc
I think the PUD issue, I think in terms of quality, rather than architectural issues when we
talk about that. In other words, is it a wooden clapboard type structure versus a stone
structure. That's what... I don't see that as a problem where it's a different structure we're
talking about ... so that may be a little bit a stretch of the imagination but it has some of the
elements of that. Whether or not it's compared to a more contemporary structure, the
Richfield building in materials I don't think is really something we should get hung up on... I
think the quality of the building is nice, particularly... The big issue we're talking about I
think is the issue of signs. I read in the paper there, the City Council upheld the issue of
Applebee's with additional signage. And with the previous meeting, our previous meeting, the
one 2 weeks ago, we talked about the issue of the tire operation. And I think we should be
consistent on how we deal with this and if the City Council feels, in their wisdom that they
wish to seek out compromises in this PUD ... I think we're going to be creating a lot of
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
problems. We have an applicant who's come in who has a customer who is committed to this
building. They would like to be in this building but the building's going to be here for a long
period of time. The customer may not. This operation is a new thing for this company, may
or may not be a success. And someone else may be there 10 years from now. I'm not sure
that the issue of, if it's carved in your, it appears to be carved in or painted out. It doesn't
seem to me that the issues, for aesthetic reasons that were put in to signage, that that's going
to solve that. That's just a way to get around that... If I was Applebee's I would be, why
them and not me. The building certainly could be more accessible to sight lines. And in
Chanhassen, we certainly have a low, low necessity competition for visual. We've seen these
buildings. Everybody believes that... these buildings, that they're—where they're located and
everybody in this room knows. Chanhassen isn't going to be up there and there's not going to
be hopefully that many more structures coming in here. To identify the building for the local
customers, you certainly have to see this from Highway 55 so, but you I don't think so. Or
TH 5 or TH 7 or you know, with our 80 foot pylon signs on the highway so they can see us
20 miles down the road. I know that as you look as the city develops, these types of
restrictions that we're putting on are a moderation tool to ... retail in the city. But they are
adding to the small... You're not seeing these columns made of plastic up and down the street.
As more and more buildings come up, you ... that moderation. I think people like it. I think
that that falls in line with 90's retail and I think I've talked too much so.
Mancino: So you would be in favor of denying the variance for four signs? Or do you want
' to see.
Farmakes: I would like to see that, the applicant has expressed an interest in looking at
' variations with staff—come up with looking at options that may be a solution to that. I'm not
sure that painting on one is a solution in my mind but if the city could come up and look at
that issue...
' Mancino: Okay. Don.
' Mehl: I think a lot of the improvements have been shown here over the last time. I'm really
very happy with the rock faced wall. We've been presented with a lot of things here this
evening that staff hasn't had an opportunity to look at, and respond to. I guess I might be
supportive of a motion to table it and let them have the opportunity to do that and then
through our discussion here we can perhaps give them some guidelines and guidance as to
' which way to go.
Mancino: Okay.
Farmakes: I'd agree.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Mancino: You would agree to that? Okay. Bob.
Skubic: I like the rock faced block. I think I agree with the three other commissioners that
there have been some improvements and, regarding the signage, I appreciate the applicant ,
attempting to meet the intent of our sign ordinance and it may be something that aesthetically
is consistent with what we're trying to do in the city. However, unless staff c�u1 somehow
make that work with the letter of the ordinance, I wouldn't be in favor of supporting signage
on the four walls.
Aanenson: Could I make some clarification? Just for your edification. We did not notice for
a variance so at this point, if they're leaning that way, we have to go back and re- notice so
we kind of want to separate those two issues. If they want, unless it's integral to their design
and they want to get site plan approval...
Mancino: Which they've already said they don't need that.
Aanenson: Right. So I would, if it's okay with the p
applicant, I'd separate those two issues
because we haven't noticed for a variance. Therefore we cannot consider that at this point.
So if you want to just consider the site plan portion at this point.
Mancino: And then do we need to make a motion about the signage or just ask for it to '
come back?
Aanenson: They have a right to come back with a separate sign... unless they want to make it
integral to the site plan. They don't want to approve it without the sign.
Skubic: I believe we're heading towards tabling this so those type of things can be...
Farmakes: ...clarify that, what were the options...?
Aanenson: Well, you have to go back and look at what we did for the entertainment. We
looked at that as something unique. They certainly a right to try for a variance. I guess we'd
want them to demonstrate to you the reasons behind that ... some concerns about, we talk about
changing the types of signs—But again, we'd like to separate those two because we didn't
elicit. If you want to give some direction on ... that would help the staff... If you want to move
forward with the site plan. Sharmin did have a chance to review this with them even though
we didn't get a chance with the site plan. We didn't see the complete presentation but
Sharmin spent a lot of time working with them between the time the staff report went out and
tonight's meeting.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Mancino: But she didn't have time to write conditions to the new?
Aanenson: Right. But really where the changes are ... So if you're comfortable...
I Mancino: Okay, Mike.
Meyer: No comments. I like the direction that it's gone so far. I think it's great. I guess
signage is a problem...
' Mancino: Ladd.
Conrad: I'm not going to make any comments but just some recommendations to the
' Planning Commission. I don't think I'd table the plat. I think staff is, can review materials. I
think we've looked at them. I'd send that along. I'd sure table the signage issue.
' Mancino: Thank you. Craig.
Peterson: I agree with Ladd. I think another mitigation factor is that we don't have another
' session for 4 weeks. Working session next time so ... them from getting going on the project.
So if staff is comfortable, I certainly am. I'm recommending going forward.
' Mancino: My comments are. First to thank the applicant with coming back with a very good
presentation. I really appreciate it. And as you can see it makes it much easier when a
presentation is this well done for us to make decisions and quickly and feel like we're good
Planning Commissioners for our community. When I came in tonight I must admit I was
concerned about the rock faced foundation because it's certainly something that I would not
choose. I must admit. But to see it with the stucco and how you explained it will look and
seeing it now, you've convinced me so thank you for the good presentation. I feel
comfortable going ahead with the site plan review. I think what we needed to help each other
' with a few of the add on conditions. Before we do, Vernelle? One of the things that we
wanted to put and I think it should be part of the conditions. The trash enclosure. That the
material will be made out of. That is the kind of last material things and that's something that
' you can work with the staff about but making sure that it is compatible and I'm not even sure
if that's a condition right now. May I have a motion...
' Farmakes: I'll make a recommendation that the Council approve the site plan for Market
Square III (995 -22) as shown on the site plan dated February 7, 1996 with the following
conditions. Or should we delete the issue or first clarify the issue of the signage?
' Mancino: Signage.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Al -Jaffa What you might want to do is propose the signage as proposed by staff and at a
future date, if they wanted a variance to the criteria that has been approved here, they can
come back.
Aanenson: Or you can leave it off completely. Whatever the applicant's may wish.
Farmakes: I'm comfortable with the way you have it here. I would like to make a ... on the
retaining wall materials. A recommendation that they have a ... consistency witl'i the
architecture of the main structure for the retaining wall. Did you want to tie in with the
retaining wall...?
Mancino: Yeah, I'd like to add a friendly amendment, or 21 that the applicant and staff work
on the materials for the trash enclosure. That they be compatible with the builAing,
architecture materials.
Farmakes: I added one so it'd be 22.
Mancino: 22. 23, do we need to add that the materials used for the building being what was
presented, precisely what was presented tonight. That would be 23. Is there a second to the
motion?
Peterson: Second.
Mancino: Any further discussion?
Meyer: Do we need to formally delete number 12? It's crossed out.
Mancino: Number 12 is crossed out. Do we need to delete that?
Aanenson: We do that when it goes to Council...
Mancino: Thank you. Any other discussion?
Mehl: One comment on your new 22. The trash enclosure. Is that, do I understand that
that's a three sided structure that they roof and doors on it?
Mancino: I don't think there's a roof but it's three sided with a door.
Mehl: With a door?
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' Planning Commission Meeting March 6 1996
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Mancino: Yes.
' Mehl: Okay. So people driving out along the road won't b
P g g e able to look in to a bunch of
dumpsters and boxes and whatever.
' Mancino: Yes correct.
' Mehl: Okay. I just wanted to make sure that it had doors.
' Mancino: Any other discussion?
Farmakes moved, Peterson seconded that the Planning Commission recommends that the City
t Council approve the Site Plan for Marfiet Square III (995 -22 SPR) as shown on the site plan
dated February 7, 1996, with the following conditions:
' 1. The applicant shall enter into a site plan agreement with the city and provide the
necessary financial security to guarantee compliance with the conditions of approval.
2. The applicant must obtain a sign permit prior to erecting any signage on site. There is
one existing monument sign on the site. The sign meets the following criteria:
' a. The height of the monument sign shall not exceed 12' 10" (the height of the existing
Market Square sign).
b. The sign shall contain no more than 41 square feet of sign area per face.
' c. The sign shall be constructed to reflect the architectural style of the Market Square
shopping center.
d. The owner of each monument sign shall be responsible for it's construction, repair,
maintenance and /or replacement.
The applicant is showing wall mounted signs on four elevations. The plans must be
amended to meet the following criteria:
' a. The letters and logos shall be restricted to 30 inches in height and must be lighted.
b. All individual letters and logos comprising each sign shall have a minimum depth of
five inches and shall be constructed with a translucent facing over neon tube
' illumination.
c. The signage shall be located on a maximum of two elevations of the buildings to be
constructed.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
3.
Approval of the site plan is contingent upon the consolidation of Lots 2 and 3 into one
lot.
4. Fire Marshal conditions:
a. A ten foot clear space must be maintained around fire hydrants. City Ordinance 9 -1.
(Relocate the Skyline Locust a minimum of ten feet away from the fire hydrant.)
Cross reference page SD -5 and SD -3.
b. Comply with the following policies:
04 -1991 - copy enclosed 34 -1993 - copy enclosed
07 -1191 - copy enclosed 35 -1994 - copy enclosed
29 -1992 - copy enclosed 36 -1994 - copy enclosed
c. "No Parking Fire Lane" signs along with yellow painted curbing shall be provided
on the entrance road east of the proposed building. Sign spacing must comply with
Policy #06 -1991. Copy enclosed.
5. Park and trail dedication fees shall be paid to the city pursuant to the city ordinances
and City Council resolutions at the rate then in force upon building permit application.
6. The applicant must provide staff with preservation plans for the eight (8) existing trees.
The applicant may not leave existing oaks and spruce in place during grading, if grading
is to come within ten feet of the tree. All existing and new trees will be guaranteed for
two years.
7. The applicant shall provide access on the southwest corner of the building; to Market
Square mall sidewalk.
8. The applicant shall verify that 31 feather reed grass plants will be used for landscaping.
9. The width of the existing drive aisle along the south side of the development shall be
increased to a minimum of 26 feet wide face -to -face. All driveway curb cut openings
shall be a minimum of 26 feet wide face -to -face as well.
10. The applicant shall work with city staff in relocating the existing utility and traffic
control boxes and the existing oak trees along West 78th Street. The plans shall be
revised accordingly. The applicant shall dedicate to the city a utility easement for the
traffic control box if it is located outside of the city's right -of -way or utility and drainage
easements.
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Planning
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11.
The steps along the southwest corner of the building shall be relocated approximately 30
feet to the east.
'
12.
On the south parking lot, the westerly shall be eliminated or the length of the parking
stalls lengthened by four feet. The
applicant shall add a retaining wall or equivalent
concrete wall between the southerly sidewalk and the southerly parking lot where the
deviation is greater than one foot in height.
13.
The applicant shall enter into an encroachment agreement with the city for the trash
'
enclosure and landscaping materials located within the city's drainage and utility
easement. The trash enclosure may be relocated to the northeasterly corner of the
parking lot.
'
14.
The
erosion control plan shall be revised to extend erosion control Type I fence along
the south side of the construction limits. The plans shall incorporate the City's erosion
'
control detail plate for Type I erosion control fence.
15.
Construction access shall be limited to the interior driveways and not from West 78th
Street or Kerber Boulevard.
16.
The landscape plan shall be revised to show the proposed sidewalks and steps on the
'
south side of the building and relocate plant materials accordingly.
IT
The applicant shall dedicate to the city a street and utility easement over the west five
'
feet of the northerly 60 feet of the lot.
18.
The applicant shall apply for and obtain the necessary utility permits for extension of
'
utilities to the building from the City's Building Department.
'
19.
All roof top equipment shall be screened.
20.
The retaining wall shall be consistent with the architecture of the main building.
'
21.
The trash enclosure shall be compatible with the architecture and materials of the
building.
'
22.
Materials used shall be precisely what was presented to the Planning Commission in the
applicant's presentation.
'
All voted
in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
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Planning ommission Meeting - March 6 1996 '
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PUBLIC HEARING:
PRELIMINARY PLAT APPROVAL TO SUBDIVIDE 11.8 ACRES INTO 23 SINGLE
FAMILY LOTS LOCATED ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF, RESIDENTIAL SINGLE
FAMILY AND LOCATED WEST OF STRATFORD RIDGE AND NORTH OF THE OAKS ,
OF MINNEWASHTA, OAK RIDGE OF MINNEWASHTA, GREG RAHN.
Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item.
Mancino: Any questions from commissioners at this time? Does the applicant wish to
address the Planning Commission please?
Tom Walsh: Madam Chair, my name is Tom Walsh. I'm ... planner for this proposal. Also
with me this evening is the ... Greg Hahn who is the proposer and Jeff... I just had a comment.
,
Three of the items recommended in the staff report... Item number 2, that the building pads
for the lot around the westerly cul -de -sac locate closer to the road in order to pull the houses
away from the existing wooded area in the northwest. I just want to make surf; that we had
'
an understanding that we're not going to pull those pads so close that we cannot meet setback
requirements so we're going to maintain the 30 foot front yard setback and we will build
within the parameters. Most of the pad sites on the entire development are ... deep by
approximately 80 feet wide. Really the proof of what's going to happen there depends on the
type of house... rambler or walkout or look -out. Item number 16, it's in the form of a
recommendation that the applicant shall revise the preliminary plat drawings to incorporate a
'
private street versus a public street and we are proposing a public street that meets all of the
ordinance requirements and perhaps this condition should be either scratched or modified so
that it's clear that we don't have to do a private street for this development. And then item
'
19. The applicant shall be responsible for payment of deferred assessments for Minnewashta
Parkway improvement including interest to date. In addition, the applicant shall be
responsible for seven additional lots ... in the amount of $760.00 plus interest from October,
1993. We've been trying to figure out if this was a 429 with special assessment project.
Nothing shows up on our records so I don't know if there was an assessment hearing and
they're presently certified. We have no evidence of that 1983 action. Or 1993. And what I'd
'
just like to suggest is perhaps having the City Attorney looking into it and get some
information back to us as to what the particular status of those assessments are... assessments
that were placed on the property... Other than that, we ... approve this proposal subject to the
three issues that we proposed.
Mancino: Thank you. Is there anyone else from your group that would like to present
anything?
,
Tom Walsh: We're tired.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Mancino: But you're here. Okay. This is open for, this will be open for a public hearing as
soon we get a motion and a second.
Skubic moved, Meyei° seconded to open the public hewing.
Mancino: This is open for a public hearing. Those wishing to approach the Planning
Commission on this issue, please do now.
Mary Blue: Hello. My name is Mary Blue and I live at 6560...Eden Prairie. We just recently
purchased a lot to the north of this development at 6770 Country Oaks Road and we looked
at the plans and ... storm sewer that will be built onto our home?
Mancino: Dave, do you want to?
Hempel: Sure. Maybe Bob could put up the overhead there to show her the proposed storm
sewer.
Mancino: Mary, why don't you first show where your property is that you just purchased.
Hempel: 7 or 6?
Mary Blue: 6.
Hempel: 6. That would be this one right here.
Mary Blue: Right. And I guess just what my husband and I were worried about is that there
is a berm that is on the back of our lot that was previously landscaped. It is overgrown right
now and there is some natural land. Anyway, we just are worried or hoping that the integrity
of our land will be as we have it ... We haven't started building our home but just hope that...
Mancino: Sure. Dave can you talk about, will there be a disturbance back there and how
much.
' Hempel: Certainly. The bottom shown in red on this drawing is a proposed storm sewer
pipe from the proposed ponding area located back in here. The overflow and take the runoff,
through the back yards of the proposed lots and right through the existing lots of Country
' Oaks. In this area here there was a drainage utility easement that ... on the property.
Mancino: So right on Mary's property?
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Hempel: That's correct. That area's been excavated now and is overgrown with... wetland
type vegetation. Cattails. Tall meadow grasses and so forth. And then the back side, I
believe the church owns that. There's some vegetation and landscaping back through there.
When the pipe is constructed will be about... disrupted back there, that property would be
restored as it is today. As a part of the road construction, it would also be disrupting most of
that lot as well so...
Mancino: How much of it do you disturb or do they disturb when you go in and put the
sewer? I mean are you talking about 20 feet? 40 feet?
Hempel: It should be relatively shallow storm sewer pipe. Probably 25 foot wide area. I
think the easement is like 40 feet wide so the ... would have to be contained within that
easement area. The pipe will be buried so... ,
Mancino: Will it change the ecosystem back there?
Hempel: ...typically a lot of the homeowners will sod that area back there. This is at the
very far end of the drainage area. Mostly likely it's up under some ... use it except for the wet
spring and runoff periods of heavy rains.
Mancino: Okay. But whatever is there now will be disturbed?
Hempel: Right.
Mancino: It won't be the same for a while. 1
Mary Blue: And I understand that and then when you do dig in the ground, you do get a
natural... and then just where the landscaping currently is on the berm, there is rock. There
are bushes. There's trees and stuff under there. And I don't know if the berm is going to be
disturbed or not or if it is only in the depression that currently seems to be there.
Mancino: Do the put the berm back Dave? If it's in that area and do the put the rock and
they they
the landscaping back the way it was? ,
Hempel: The berm I believe that you're referring to is the back slope. This is the bottom of
the ponding area in here. This would be sloping up towards the west, or towards the ... so that
would look like a berm but that slope will be restored. The elevations and the vegetation...
let you mow it or sod it.
Mary Blue: We haven't decided exactly what we're going to do but that was...
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Mancino: Good. Do you have any other questions?
Mary Blue: Not at this point, no.
Mancino: Thank you. This is still an open public hearing. Anyone else wishing to address
the Planning Commission. Seeing none, may I have a motion to close the public hearing
please.
Meyer moved, Peterson seconded to close the public healing.
Mancino: Commissioners, comments. Craig.
Peterson: I don't have a great deal of issues with it at all. It seems to be a relatively straight
forward plan. The developers and the city staff seem to have agreed upon the points. The
points brought up by the developer were just for clarification issues. They can take care of
those. No substantive comments.
Mancino: Ladd.
Conrad: Yeah, looks fine.
Mancino: Mike.
Meyer: Just maybe a question for Bob. Are you recommending that we delete number 16?
Aanenson: Modify it.
' Generous: Well I was thinking more along the modification that he could add a phrase at the
end of the sentence. Or verify that a public street works in conjunction with a storm, single
storm water pond for the site.
t Mancino: Can you say that one more time?
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Generous: Or verify that a public street works in conjunction with a single storm water pond
for the site. The only reason we even went to the private street is because we thought that
they might have to enlarged the pond and we wanted to get separation between the house
pads and the edge of the ponding areas.
Meyer: That's all I have.
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Planning ommission Meeting - March 6 1996
g g ,
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Mancino: Bob,
'
Skubic: I also have a question of staff regarding item number 19 that the applicant brought
up. Is there a need to re -word that at all?
'
Hempel: Sure. I can give you a little background on that one. Minnewashta Parkway was
upgraded back in 1991 -92. The assessment hearing was in 1993. It was a 429 assessment
projects There were numerous public hearings. I believe the initial assessment amount for
that project per unit was close to $1,800.00 or $2,000.00 per unit. But through the public
hearing process and neighborhood input and so forth, that per dollar unit was lowered quite a
bit. The initial feasibility report went through and generated a preliminary assessment role
based on how many units each parcel could ultimately be developed in. We were very
conservative in that number. I think we figured two, two units or 1.7 units per acre and I
,
think this plat here has 2.3 units per acre. So what typically happens, as each parcel's
developed, we actually see how many parcels are able to develop on them, the additional
amount of units created are then also charged the additional assessment for this Minnewashta
Parkway improvement project. The city did use MSA funds, State Aid funds, ]local funds and
a very small portion of it was assessed back so, we are attempting to recoup some of the
investments the city has put forth into the project by further assessments.
Mancino: So there isn't any way until now that anyone would know this? That there were 7
additional lots until the preliminary plat came in.
Hempel: That's correct.
,
Mancino: So Mrs. Hallgren wouldn't have known.
Hempel: We estimated 16 lots on this parcel. One assessment was paid. The other 15 were
deferred until development.
Mancino: Okay, thank you.
1
Hempel: City Council does have the authority to waive those additional fees, if they wish to
appeal that additional 7 lots.
'
Skubic: Thank you Dave. t
Mancino: Did you have a question at this time?
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Tom Walsh: Well Madam Chair, this really doesn't affect Mr. Hahn's purchase of the
property but the previous property owner was not really happy with a $16,000.00 assessment.
But the issue in question we need to have answered is can you, after the assessments have
been certified, then the after the fact collect additional assessments in projects. That's not my
' understanding of the process and that's what ... City Attorney look at it. Because once you
certified 16 lots or ... in the project, it's very difficult to add and subtract. The city's
recouped...
Mancino: I take it we've done this before.
' Hempel: Yes we have.
Tom Walsh: ...all we want is some clarification.
'
Hempel: We can certainly et that information.
P Yg
' Mancino: Thank you. Jeff.
Farmakes: I have nothing further to add.
Mancino: Don.
' Mehl: I have nothing either.
Mancino: Okay. I just have two questions. Bob on 17. The applicant shall add a 5 foot
wide concrete sidewalk along, is it the northern side of, or I mean the western side of Country
Oaks Drive?
' Hempel: We haven't determined that yet. To the south of the subdivision there's a 5 foot
concrete sidewalk going to extended along the west side of Country Oaks Drive. And the
' existing trail that's in the northern part of Country Oaks is on the eastern side so somewhere
inbetween we've got to.
' Aanenson: Because the park's on the east side.
Hempel: We'll work on that with the plan.
Mancino: So that hasn't been determined yet, okay. I wondered where that side was not on
here. The other question that came up from the applicant Bob was number 2. Pulling those
building pads towards the road will still keep this within the setbacks?
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Generous: Yes. He shows the building area that has just those little pads were pushed to the
back of where they thought that they'd locate them so.
Mancino: So we're able to save trees and still stay in the setback requirements'? Okay, good. '
May I have a motion please?
Peterson: I'll make a motion that the Planning Commission recommends approval of the
Subdivision 996 -2, the Oak Ridge of Lake Minnewashta prepared by Loucks & Associates,
Inc. dated January 19, 1996, creating 23 lots and associated right -of -way subject to the
following conditions 1 through 33 and adding to number 16, or verify that a public, I can't
read my writing. Imagine that. Verify that a public street works with a single storm water
pond. Does that sound right?
Generous: Yes.
Mancino: Is there a second to the motion? 1
Mehl: Second.
Mancino: Any discussion? Friendly amendment to 19. Dave, how would you like us to
word that as far as having a legal review?
Hempel: Consulting the City Attorney to determine the legality of the additional assessments
for Minnewashta Parkway.
Mancino: Thank you. That will be added to number 19. Will you accept the friendly
amendment?
Peterson: Yes I doe
Peterson moved, Mehl seconded that the Planning Commission recommends approval of
Subdivision 996 -2, the Oak Ridge of Lake Minnewashta, prepared by Loucks & Associates,
Inc., dated January 19, 1996, creating 23 lots and associated light -of -way subject to the ,
following conditions:
1. Forestation and replacement plantings for the development requires 77 trees chosen from ,
the City's Approved Tree List. Conifer trees shall average seven feet in height with a
six foot minimum height. The applicant shall submit a revised landscaping plan,
incorporating these changes to the city for review and approval prior to final plat
approval.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
1
2. The building pads for lots around the western cul -de -sac be located closer to the road in
order to pull the houses away from the existing wooded area in the northwestern corner.
3. The stormwater pipes along the northern property line shall be relocated away from the
tree line to preserve these trees. Any additional trees preserved on -site will reduce the
amount of replacement plantings required on site.
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4. Trees that are to be preserved on site shall be protected with tree protection fencing
pursuant to city ordinance. Such fencing shall be installed in conjunction with the
installation of the erosion control fences and prior to site grading.
5. Add one fire hydrant at the northeast corner of the intersection at Country Oaks Road
and Oak Ridge Court.
6. Relocate the fire hydrant from between Lots 2 and 3 to Lots 3 and 4, Block 1.
7. The proposed street names "Oak Ridge Lane" and "Oak Ridge Court" must be
resubmitted. The city already has an Oakwood Ridge and Country Oaks Road. With
four roads named Oak, we are trying to minimize confusion in the event of a police,
fire, or medical emergency.
8. A ten foot clear space must be maintained around fire hydrants. City Ordinance 9 -1.
9. In lieu of land dedication, the development shall pay full park and trail fees pursuant to
city ordinance.
10. A demolition permit shall be required prior to the removal of any structures on the
parcel. This should be done prior to any grading on the property.
11. The applicant shall be responsible for SWMP water quality and quantity connection
charges in the amount of $9,444. and $23,364. respectively. Credits will be applied to
these charges based on the applicant's contribution to SWMP requirements. The credits
will be determined upon final review of the construction plans. These fees are payable
to the city prior to recording the final plat.
12. The applicant shall retain a qualified wetlands delineator to prepare a report or letter of
clarification as to the status of the creek through Lots 7 and 8, Block 1.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
13. The applicant's engineer and city staff shall work together to reduce the amount of site
grading and the need for the westerly pond by means of adjusting street and house pad
grades accordingly.
14. The applicant will need to submit ponding calculations to determine if the ponds are
meeting SWMP water quality requirements. The ponds shall also be designed to
maintain the predeveloped runoff rate from the site. The outlet pipe from the easterly '
storm pond shall be relocated to minimize or avoid tree removal along the north plat
line. The applicant will be responsible for acquiring the necessary drainage and utility
easement outside the plat for extension of the storm water pipe through the church
property to the north of the site.
15. Staff and the applicant's engineer will be working to adjust site grades to preserve the I
tree lines along the north and south property lines of the plat.
16. The applicant shall revise the preliminary plat drawings to incorporate a private street '
versus a public street along Oak Ridge Court, or verify that a public street works in
conjunction with a single storm water pond for the site.
17. The applicant shall add a 5 foot wide concrete sidewalk along Country Oaks Drive.
18. Erosion control measures shall be implemented on the site to control runoff. All catch
basins shall be protected with erosion control fence until the site has been fully
revegetated and the streets paved. Rock construction entrances shall be installed and
maintained at all construction entrance points until the first lift of asphalt has been
installed.
19. The applicant shall be responsible for payment of the deferred assessments for the
Minnewashta Parkway improvements including interest to date. In addition, the
applicant shall be responsible for seven additional lot assessments in the amount of
$760. per lot plus interest from October, 1993. The City Attorney will be consulted to
verify the legality of the additional assessments,
20. Upon completion, the developer shall dedicate to the city the utility and street
improvements within the public right -of -way and drainage and utility easements for
permanent ownership.
1
21. All areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored
with seed and disc - mulched or wood fiber blanket or sod within two weeks of '
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
completion of each activity in accordance with the City's Best Management Practice
Handbook.
22. All public utility and street improvements shall be constructed in accordance with the
latest edition of the City's Standard Specifications and Detail Plates. Detailed street and
utility plans and specifications shall be submitted for staff review and City Council
approval. Oak Ridge Court shall be constructed in accordance with the City's private
street ordinance.
23. The applicant shall provide detailed ponding calculations for stormwater quality /quantity
ponds in accordance with the City's Surface Water Management Plan for the City
Engineer to review and approve. The applicant shall provide detailed pre- developed and
post developed stormwater calculations for 100 year storm events and normal water level
and high water level calculations in existing basins, created basins and /or creeks. Water
quality ponding design calculations shall be based on Walker's Pondnet model.
24. The applicant shall enter into a development contract with the city and provide the
necessary financial security to guarantee compliance with the terms of the development
contract.
25. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate regulatory
' agencies, i.e. Carver County, Watershed District, Metropolitan Waste Control
Commission, Health Department, and Minnesota Pollution Control Agency.
26. The applicant shall submit to the city soil boring information prior to final plat
consideration.
F
27. The appropriate drainage and utility easements should be dedicated on the final plat for
all utilities and ponding areas lying outside the right -of -way. The easement width shall
be a minimum of 20 feet wide. Consideration should also be given for access for
maintenance of the ponding areas.
28. No berming or landscaping will be allowed within the right -of -way.
29. The lowest exposed floor or opening elevation of all buildings should be a minimum of
2 feet above the 100 year high water level.
30. The proposed stormwater ponds must have side slopes of 10:1 for the first ten feet at the
normal water level and no more than 3:1 thereafter or 4:1 throughout for safety
purposes.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
31. Existing wells and /or septic systems will have to be properly abandoned in accordance
to the City and State Health Department codes. The existing home on Lot 12, Block 1
shall be connected to the sanitary sewer system within 30 days after the system becomes
operational. The resident may continue to utilize the well until the well fails at which
time the parcel shall be connected to city water service,
32. The applicant shall report to the City Engineer the location of any drain tiles found
during construction and shall relocate or abandon the drain the as directed by the City
'
Engineer.
33. The applicant shall include a drain tile system behind the curbs to convey sump pump
discharge for these lots which are not adjacent to a wetland, storm pond or catch basin.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING:
AMENDMENT TO SECTION 20 -482 OF THE CITY CODE REGARDING REMOVAL OR
ALTERATION OF VEGETATION IN THE SHORELAND DISTRICT.
John Rask presented the staff report on this item.
Mancino: Questions. Number 2 from the top. You're allowed to have 30 feet or 30% per
structure, that means primary and secondary structure?
Rask: Well you can have...
Mancino: Or is it 30 feet for both?
Rask: For both. Well what's showing here is, you'll notice it's not all clear. This would
show if somebody was to build a boathouse. They could clear for that separate use, and that's
allowed by ordinance now. Again it just wasn't, what we did was, if you create a view but
you don't have to put your boathouse in there. You don't have to put your beach in that area,
that you can work and clear vegetation in other areas as long as you basically adhere to the
standards that are currently in place.
Mancino: Can you clear for any other reasons? I mean what if it's not for view or you just
want to go down and clear?
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I Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
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Rask: Currently no, and with this would quantify that. The only thing, when developments
' come in for subdivision approval, that issue can be examined at that time and the Council can
be more restrictive or set other standards for clearing the lot of trees.
Mancino: Are you going to include these drawings in the ordinances?
Rask: Yes. I don't know if we'll include them all but we will provide examples in there.
Mancino: Okay.
' Conrad: Does this apply above the high water mark?
t
Rask: Yes. It'd be from the high water mark up, in most cases 37 1/2 feet and then
everything beyond that, like I said, is up to the property owner whether or not they want to
save there. And that's how the ordinance currently reads. What we're trying to do again is to
quantify what intensive vegetation clearing means.
Aanenson: So for example, we do have a lot of homes that have the wooded area going all
the way up the house, but there is that zone of influence and that's what John tried to show
you, that 30 feet that's adjacent to lakeshore that people do want to have an area to recreate.
To get their boat in and out of the water, to store and that sort of thing. And that's where
there's been some ambiguity and what we've attached as conditions of the subdivision to say,
complying with the shoreland regulations. Maybe the neighbors have certain expectation.
The developers have certain expectations of what that mean so we're trying to bring some
clarity to that. Certainly it's been an issue when we brought before you a subdivision where
there's wooded lots along lakeshore that you've maybe gone beyond that, so the Council
attach additional. But where we've had some weaknesses is the definition in that zone of
influence of the shore and that's what we need clarity on.
Conrad: Where the DNR has jurisdiction below the high water mark, what's their regulations
on clearing?
Rask: Basically it's mandated by the State that the municipalities implement the shoreland
regulations. Adopt the shoreland regulations so we get everything above that.
Conrad: Yeah, but what do they do? My recollection is they say you can clear a path to
clear it to open water.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Aanenson: Correct, and that's the sand, the blanket that John was showing and that you can
do the 50 foot blanket. That in addition to what the DNR would allow you to do and that's,
he's got that...
Conrad: So they'll allow 50 foot wide?
Aanenson: Correct. For the beach area. If we did nothing and someone had a property that
had a beachlot, they could go in and put the 50 foot wide, by the DNR regulations.
Conrad: The 30% of lot width. The lot has to be 100 feet on the lake. So what does the
30% do?
Rask: That would be.
Conrad: If there's smaller lots.
Rask: Yeah. We have a number of small lots on the lake so if they only have, let's say 50
feet, they'd be allowed to go up to.
Conrad: 15?
Rask: Yeah.
Peterson: Which is pretty small. It's a little tunnel.
Aanenson: Right. Actually it's 75 feet of width for most of our lakeshore lots.
Mancino: Can you get a boat down there? 15 -20 feet.
Aanenson: If you can meet the dock setback zones.
Conrad: Riparian lot is 75 feet wide?
Aanenson: Correct. Most of them are more than that.
Rask: At the lakeshore.
Aanenson: At the lakeshore, yes. It's in conflict with our ordinance which says 90. When
we went back and did the shoreland, we tried to make it consistent to the 90 feet but the
DNR went to 75 feet. I believe it went back to a different, because our frontages are 90 feet.
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I Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
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But where you have a pie shaped lot. We haven't had that many. Most people try to square
the lot off.
Conrad: With 75 feet, right at 20,000 square feet lot size?
Aanenson: That's how it used to be. When we went back and did the shoreland regs, now
we went back and said 15,000 because we felt like with our storm water management plan
' that we were already, the only place we didn't change it was on the natural environment
lakes. Lake St. Joe was...
Mancino: I was going to say. Lake St. Joe there was riparian had to be 20,000.
' Aanenson: Correct.
Conrad: So the integrity of a nice wetland.
Aanenson: Well that was still, that's a good question. That the wetland alteration permit
would still come into play, which again we'd look at that separately and that's where John
was saying we'd have to look at this when we go through the subdivision process. This is the
zone of influence but there's a wetland in there and then that's certainly different criteria than
just clearing the shoreland—wetland alteration permit but we tried to narrow those down and
not allow quite so much vegetation removal. Foot paths or whatever. Which we have done.
Mancino: John on the back page on number 1. Vegetation alteration necessary for the
construction of structures. So we need to be more specific?
Rask: Well we defined structures in our ordinance.
Aanenson: Yeah, that's a good question. I think the problem here is we pulled this off the
current shoreland regs and didn't show you all of it but that structures are defined in shoreland
regs. Dock and decks, as John indicated, and boathouses. Those are all defined... That's a
good question.
Mancino: Any other questions? Seeing none, may I, I'd like to open this for a public
hearing. May I have a motion and a second.
Skubic moved, Meyei• seconded to open the public healing.
Mancino: Seeing nobody here to publicly talk, can I have a motion to close the public
hearing.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Conrad moved, Mehl seconded to close the public hewing.
Mancino: Comments from commissioners. Don.
Mehl: I really don't have any comments.
Mancino: Jeff.
Farmakes: None.
Mancino: Bob.
Skubic: Nothing.
Mancino: Mike. Ladd. Craig. I don't either. May I have a motion please.
Mehl: I'll make a motion that the Planning Commission recommend that the City Council
adopt the amendments as described in the staff report dated February 28, 1996.
Mancino: Is there a second?
Meyer: I'll second that.
Mancino: Any discussion?
Mehl moved, Meyer seconded that the Planning Commission recommend that the City
Council adopt the following amendments to the Shoreland Ordinance, Section 20 -482,
described in the staff mpoft dated Febma►y 28, 1996. All voted in favor- and the motion
carried unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING:
AMENDMENT TO SECTION 20- 1255(9) TEMPORARY DEVELOPMENT S
SECTION 20- 1301(2) AREA IDENTIFICATION SIGNS, AND SECTION 20 -
DEFINITIONS.
John Rask presented the staff report on this item
Mancino: Any questions of staff at this time?
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I Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
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Peterson: At one of the last meetings we talked about conceivably a glitch in the sign
ordinance where you could have a stand alone, monument, or whatever 20 feet or so high that
had signs and I think one of the banks has it. It's got a sign for Century Bank or whatever it
is that's got the sign on all four sides or three sides.
' Aanenson: Yeah, that discussion came out regarding the interpretation of a canopy. I guess
staff felt, if someone was willing to spend that much architecturally, another person who had
' a canopy is Chanhassen State Bank. There isn't too many of those. It is an architectural
feature that adds a lot to the building. So that decision was made and ... if we got those again,
we'd leave it up to the Planning Commission to make that interpretation. I'd suggest that you
' may want to get the ... answer but I think when we do those sign packages as a part of the site
plan review, I think that would be good for you to make that interpretation. If you feel that's
an architectural feature, that's a canopy and it does specifically state in the ordinance a canopy
feature could have a sign. But we would think a better way to go is let the Planning
Commission make that interpretation ... You're right, we did talk about it.
' Peterson: Wouldn't it be easier though for us to put it in here? That a canopy can only have
one or two signs on it. So we have something to fall back on or is it just?
Rask: Yeah, I don't really recall how, the ordinance allows canopy signs right now and I
don't recall what our intent was when we adopted it. We do provide a diagram of that in our
definition section which shows a marquee with signs on it.
Farmakes: I believe originally when they discussed that, the canopy wasn't necessarily a four
sided piece. A structure. So then how it, when we're talking about two sides or one side, it
potentially could be an octagon. The question is what faces what frontage road? It may face
two frontage roads at the same time.
Rask: In the case of Century Bank, and this was put in, it was something that was discussed
when it went in front of the Council. They were asking for it. They showed signs on that
marquee feature and the interpretation given there was they took, they had one frontage so
they took the wall area and we determined how much signage they could put on the wall area
and they were limited to that amount on the canopy.
Mancino: On the whole canopy.
Aanenson: Right.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
Rask: So they could not, and it came out to 120 square feet maybe. I'm not sure of that
figure but the Council said okay, you can use that amount of sign area and put it on the
marquee as you see fit basically was how that all panned out.
Aanenson: So they didn't get additional signs. They just put it on a place where it maybe
was more visible. So and that goes back to what I said before. I think that would be an
interpretation for you to look at and then their commitment on it as part of the sign package...
Farmakes: I think that should be a concern because if they have, sort of a slap on arbitrarily.
Something like that just to get that.
Aanenson: Exactly Jeff, that's why I'm saying I think you should make that decision or
recommendation, whether or not you feel that's an integral part of the architecture because
some people—to get what they want.
Mancino: That's a good point. Premiere Video also has a side sign that's not... '
Rask: Yeah, that was granted as a variance with the Byerly's site plan. Actualliy I think they
came to in a separate sign plan package but they did get a variance for that. It's going to be
Hollywood Video too in a few days so, but their store can have two signs.
Mancino: I have a quick question. The one thing that I'm noticing on some of these main
entrance signs, and it's the one on Lake Lucy which is Pointe Lake Lucy. The amount of
light shining on that. It's a limestone wall and it has lettering and it's very well. done but
whereas the Lundgren development to the east of that has just one spotlight on their's, this has
two and it's just, we may want to look at wattage at some point on these entrance signs. It's
not like there's a big skylight in the sky yet but the wattage is twice, if not 3 or 4 times what
it is in other entrances. So you may want to just take a look at that... Can I have a motion to
open this for a public hearing please.
Faimakes moved, Meyer seconded to open the public healing.
Mancino: Seeing no one here, may I have a motion to close the public hearing.
Faimakes moved, Meyer seconded to close the public hewing.
Mancino: Thank you. Don. Comments.
Mehl: No, I don't have anything at this time, 1
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I Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
I
Mancino: Jeff.
' Farmakes: I'll go with the staff recommendation on this.
r Mancino: Bob.
■ Skubic: No comments.
Mancino: Mike. Ladd. Craig.
Peterson: No comments.
Mancino: I don't either. May I have a motion please?
Skubic: I'll make a motion that the Planning Commission recommend that the City Council
adopt the following amendments as described in the staff report dated February 28, 1996,
items 1 through 3.
' Mancino: Is there a second to the motion?
Meyer: Second.
Mancino: Any discussion?
Skubic moved, Meyer seconded that the Planning Commission recommends that the City
Council adopt the following amendments as described in the staff report dated Febivaiy 28,
1996:
1. Amend Section 20- 1255(9)(a) to read, "Not more than one (1) non - illuminated sign per
street frontage, provided that the total number of signs do not exceed two (2) per
' project.
2. Amend Section 20- 1301(2) Area identification /entrance signs to read: Only one (1)
monument sign may be erected at the primary entrance(s), which shall not exceed
twenty -four (24) square feet of sign display area, nor be more than five (5) feet high.
Any such sign or monument shall be designed so that it is maintenance free. The
adjacent property owner or a homeowners association shall be responsible for
maintenance of the identification /entrance sign. Such sign shall be located so as not to
conflict with traffic visibility or street maintenance operation, and shall be securely
' anchored to the ground.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
3. Section 20 -1, Definitions. Signs, ground low profile business, means a business sign
affixed directly to the ground, which directs attention to a business, commodity, service
or product offered on the premises.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
NEW BUSINESS:
Aanenson: Maybe I'll just take the seminary site. I just put this, included it fo:r your
edification. The Building Official, Steve Kirchman, through another matter was apprised of a
situation. He did go down. There's two homes on the seminary site and the one that they are
trying to get, or to vacate, is draining right into the creek there and it's pretty hazardous so
they are working with the owners of the property to get it repaired or vacate the property so
we appreciate his efforts in going down and investigating that. There was another issue as far
as ... extra measure to check on that issue and we appreciate that. Just as a side bar, we did
have a meeting with the DNR and watershed districts on the seminary site and we're moving
forward. It's part of our plan in that 1995 study area, so some exciting things are happening
there. Hoping to get the wetlands delineated there. Hopefully they'll be coming forward with
a proposal on that property which I think is probably one of the best uses for the property.
So I just wanted to let you know that hopefully we're stopping a problem down there. It's
very critical. If you had an opportunity to see the article in the Star and Tribune about the
seminary site. It's probably one of the most unique sites in the state as far as the type of
vegetation. The DNR is very interested in that property. Preserving it so that's exciting.
Mancino: Is that in the final stages?
Aanenson: It's pretty close. There's also somebody else looking at which may be a
compatible use too so, I think either one. Either way we're going to have a use that's going
to be low intensity on that property and hopefully get closure on it. The concern that we
have right now is that, in those outside the MUSA, there's enough motivation for people to
take that density and cluster it to try to do large lot developments ... destroy the integrity of the
property. So that's all I had.
Mancino: May I have a so noting of the Minutes please.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Peterson moved, Meyer seconded to note the Minutes of the
Planning Commission meeting dated February 12, 1996 as presented.
44
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
CITY COUNCIL UPDATE:
Aanenson: On the 26th of February the City Council heard several items. The meeting went
very late so they tabled the meeting and concluded it this Monday, March 4th. So on the
26th they tabled the amendment for the landscape nurseries and garden centers. They
approved first reading but they did table the second reading. To look at some other issues
there. They did approve the first reading of the commercial stables and kennels in the
business fringe district. They approved the preliminary plat in the Knoblauch subdivision.
They did leave off the condition that was a requirement for the additional right -of -way for
Mr. Knoblauch to dedicate to Mr. Donovan's property towards Yosemite. And they also
approved Applebee's restaurant site plan and they did deny the variance for the additional
signage. Then on March 4th, the items that were carried over were the code amendment for
landscaping. Tree removal for transitional buffering. They approved the first reading. They
did require a modification for second reading and that would be, if the neighbors wanted
100% screening, that maybe the existing ... the existing neighbor responsible for a portion of
that and ... So the second reading that change will be in place. And they also approved the
first reading of the bluff ordinance and side slope clarifications. They did want the staff to
investigate a couple pieces of properties they had some concerns on so ... they'll both be on the
consent on the 11th.
Mancino: Okay, thank you. Ongoing items.
ONGOING ITEMS.
Aanenson: I just wanted to let you know that we do have our work session set for the 20th.
I shared with Nancy earlier what we had set up. We're going to start at 6:30. We'll have
dinner. The first think will be tax increment financing. Todd Gerhardt will do that. Talk to
you on that. Nancy's going to give us an update on where we're at the park referendum.
Nancy and I will both be talking about where we are with the Bluff Creek study. I think it's
pretty exciting what's happening. I'll also be talking about the Livable Communities Act.
What we need to do as far as recommendations that we have to submit by June any ordinance
changes. So I'll be sharing with you what I'll be proposing there. And also we mapped out
now a whole strategy for what we're looking at breaking down the whole hearing process
timeframe for zoning the rest of the property that was in the 1995 study area. We did get the
other portion of the Highway 5 approved, as I indicated, by the Met Council. Now we
haven't brought it into the MUSA but the zoning's in place. So we're kind of working
through that process, and I'll break it down with the rest of that southern area. I did indicate
earlier that we may be looking at the IOP amendment. I have met with Barry Warner, the
consultant we're using on that. He did have a conflict with that meeting so we will put that
45
Planning Commission Meeting - March 6, 1996
on, it looks like we'll have a very light agenda on April 3rd so hopefully we'll be able to get
that one. 11
Mancino: The car dealership. INS
Aanenson: The IOP amendment, yes. So we'll have, just what we're doing is just calling
some other cities and looking at that issue so we're...with no recommendation. It's just kind
of for your information. Some other cities and what they've done.
Farmakes: We're actually looking at those things... presentation for them, it might be helpful
if we actually see the product, or at least ask them to enclose the product in their presentation
that you have. In other words, put the cars out in front of the building.
Aanenson: I guess where I'm coming at from still ... do you even want that type of zoning and
what are the issues.,. That's kind of first step and then what I'm asking, after the closure of
the next portion is to ask where you want me to take the next step ... if and, if and, so we're
taking the first component. If you want us to proceed, then we've got a couple other courses
of action that you want us to do. So the first plan is just look at some other communities.
What they've done. Some issues ... so that's kind of how we broke it down.
Mancino: So at this point we're not looking at Chanhassen and other sites?
Aanenson: Correct. I
Mancino: We're just looking at what's been done in communities around us and.
Aanenson: Issues with car dealerships.
Mancino: Open discussion. Did you want to talk about this?
Aanenson: Oh yes. We will be presenting, we're going to show you a couple of highlights
on this. This is something that Bob has put together every year. Just some interesting tidbits
for you. We'll be presenting this to the Council on March 18th at their work session. Some
interesting facts here. This was the first year that we actually issued more multi- family
permits than we did single family permits. We issued over 500. The first time- in the history
that we've ever issued that many. We also did quite a bit of industrial development...
A motion was made to adjown the meeting.
Submitted by Kate Aanenson, Planning Director Prepared by Nann Opheim
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