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Pioneer Pass & Riley Ridge Neighborhood Concept Plans and Park Names0 CITY OF CHAIVHASSEN 7700 Market Boulevard PO Box 147 Chanhassen, MN 55317 Administration Phone: 952.227.1100 Fax: 952.227.1110 Building Inspections Phone: 952.227.1180 Fax: 952.227.1190 Engineering Phone: 952.227.1160 Fax: 952.227.1170 Finance Phone: 952.227.1140 Fax: 952.227.1110 Park & Recreation Phone: 952.227.1120 Fax: 952.227.1110 Recreation Center 2310 Coulter Boulevard Phone: 952.227.1400 Fax: 952.227.1404 Planning & Natural Resources Phone: 952.227.1130 Fax: 952.227.1110 Public Works 7901 Park Place Phone: 952.227.1300 Fax: 952.227.1310 Senior Center Phone: 952.227.1125 Fax: 952.227.1110 Web Site www.ci.chanhassen.mn.us MEMORANDUM TO: Todd Gerhardt, City Manager FROM: Todd Hoffman, Park & Recreation Director DATE: April 1, 2011 SUBJ: Recommendation to Approve Concept Plans and Park Names, Pioneer Pass and Riley Ridge Neighborhood Parks 4 PROPOSED MOTION: "The City Council approves the proposed park concept plans for new neighborhood parks to be located in Reflections at Lake Riley and Pioneer Pass; and the park names of Riley Ridge Park and Pioneer Pass Park." City Council approval of this item requires a simple majority vote. EXECUTIVE SUMMARY As a condition of approval for the subdivision of both Reflections at Lake Riley and Pioneer Pass, the city acquired 4.8 -acre and 8.7 -acre properties using a combination of park dedication and cash purchase with the intent of developing two new neighborhood parks. The exact timeline for the development of these properties into functioning parks is currently unknown, but an important first step in charting this process is the approval of a park concept plan. Concept plans are utilized to educate potential home buyers about what these future park sites are likely to offer for recreation amenities, guide capital improvement planning, and lay the groundwork for the future adoption of park master plans. Staff will be making a short presentation to better introduce these new parks to the council and public. PARK AND RECEATION COMMISSION RECOMMENDATION On February 22, 2011, the Park and Recreation Commission reviewed the proposed park concept plans for both Riley Ridge Park and Pioneer Pass Park. The verbatim minutes documenting this discussion are attached. Upon conclusion of their review the following motion was made: Chanhassen is a Community for Life - Providing for Today and Planning for Tomorrow Park & Recreation Commission April 1, 2011 Page 2 "Wendt moved, Cole Kelly seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council: Approve the proposed park concept plan for the new neighborhood park in Reflections at Lake Riley; 2. Approve the proposed park concept plan for the new neighborhood park in Pioneer Pass with the following changes: flip flopping the basketball court and playground locations and evaluating the parking lot size of 24 spaces; and 3. Approve the park names of Riley Ridge Park and Pioneer Pass Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0." RECOMMENDATION Staff recommends that the City Council approve the proposed park concept plans for new neighborhood parks to be located in Reflections at Lake Riley and Pioneer Pass as recommended by the Park and Recreation Commission and the park names of Riley Ridge Park and Pioneer Pass Park. ATTACHMENTS 1. Location Map 2. Recommended Riley Ridge Park Concept Plan 3. Site Context Map — Riley Ridge Park 4. Recommended Pioneer Pass Park Concept Plan 5. Site Context Map — Pioneer Pass Park 6. February 22, 2011 Park and Recreation Commission Meeting Minutes gApark\th \pioneer pass park \commission report.doc OL • J PdWlt . 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Pioneer Pass Residential Development L it o 41 or 0 ANa 0 2010 NAVTEQ CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING FEBRUARY 22, 2011 Chairman Daniel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jeff Daniel, Steve Scharfenberg, Tom Kelly, Scott Wendt, Glenn Stolar, Elise Ryan and Cole Kelly STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Daniel: If there's any items that need to be added or deleted, please let us know. Ryan: I have a Red Birds update. Daniel: Excellent. Where do you want to put that Todd? Should we just put it in the visitor, or public announcements or do you want it at the end? Hoffman: Commission member reports. Daniel: Okay. Thank you Elise. Todd. Hoffman: I have a couple I'd like to add. Some dates for tours throughout the year so we can get those on your calendars, and then also talk about an invitation from the Environmental Commission for a couple of members to attend their April 13 meeting, and we can do those under Admin. Just after reports so item 6. Daniel: Excellent. Alright, anything else? Okay, then let's go ahead and approve the agenda. Tom Kelly: I move to approve the agenda with the changes noted previously. Scharfenberg: Second. Tom Kelly moved, Scharfenberg seconded to approve the agenda with additions under commission member presentations by Commissioner Ryan and administrative packet. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: Ruegemer: As of today the rinks are officially closed for the season. The kind of warm weather that we had last week, along with the snow that we had over the weekend and the effort to kind of, sun angles are getting so much higher and the rinks are really starting to really melt even Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 when it's below freezing. It's just at this point it doesn't seem worth the, for the remaining season that we do have so we did officially close the rinks today. Daniel: And how's that in comparison to normal rink shut downs? Ruegemer: You know I'd say we're you know, compared to last year, earlier than last year. I think we went into March last year. Cole Kelly: Last year was an unusual year. When my son was skating when he was younger outside a lot, this seems about normal. Ruegemer: It's about in that area. Daniel: Last week in February as I remember most of the official closes. Hoffman: Yeah, end of third week. And mostly due to the sun angle. The sun just takes it out on the north side of the boards. Basically it's just not worth the investment in time to clear off 13 inches of snow and try to get back in skating conditions. I think we'd fight a losing battle. Daniel: Thank you Jerry. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Cole Kelly moved, Tom Kelly seconded to approve the verbatim and summary minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated January 25, 2011 as presented. REVIEW CONCEPT PLANS FOR NEW NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS TO BE LOCATED IN "REFLECTIONS AT LAKE RILEY" AND "PIONEER PASS ", AMY BOWER, HOISINGTON - KOEGLER GROUP, INC. Hoffman: I'll start just with a little bit of background. Chair Daniels, members of the commission, tonight is really the first in almost a three part series of what the commission will work on for these two neighborhood park sites. Generally we want to get a concept plan on the board so we have, as we move into neighborhood meetings and publishing newsletters and those type of things that we have an official concept plan for the park sites and also for the developers in the area. That people moving in to give an idea of what eventually that site might look like. Once this is approved you'll make recommendation to the City Council to approve these concept plans. Then we'll move into at an appropriate time, a neighborhood meeting concept and it takes neighbors to have a neighborhood meeting so they want some of the houses to be built and some of the neighbors to move into the actual properties where these parks are sited. Obviously there are other adjoining neighbors already in place and then you'll hold a neighborhood meeting at that time. Receive any additional feedback. Make a final recommendation to the City Council for a park master plan. That then would move into the CIP process for the commission to continue on with the eventual development. You're familiar with both these sites so I'm not going to go through how we've acquired them. Pioneer Pass acquired through the development 2 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 with that name and then the Riley Ridge Park, which is being recommended as the name for the new park in the Reflections at Lake Riley neighborhood. That started as being known as Lakeview. Then it changed to Reflections at Lake Riley. The developer likes the name Riley Ridge Park and in fact they want to name the street out in front of the park Riley Ridge Drive so. And we have Amy Bower with Hoisington - Koegler Group here tonight. She'll walk you through the site plans that she's developed. Concept plans for each one of these parks and she's the landscape architect so Amy, come on up. Amy Bower: Thanks Todd. I have some context maps. I know you're familiar with where these parks are located but I thought it'd be helpful to have some context and see how the developing neighborhoods are, what phase they're at. The Pioneer Park Pass is over in this area, north of 212 and Audubon Road. Then you can see a lot of the areas which we developed and Riley Ridge Park is up near Riley Lake and south of 212 and north of Lyman Boulevard. Again you can see how the neighborhoods are yet to develop. Hoffman: And most of the commission has toured both sites but it's good to see in context where these are individually. Amy Bower: Okay. So I'm going to zoom in on Pioneer Park Pass. Sorry, Pioneer Pass Park. And here you can see the 8.7 acre park and you can see how it's located and these parcels are situated because they have great access to a public road and visibility. They're surrounded by residential areas and also they are both adjacent to some great natural features. You can see a big woodland area that's adjacent to the park. Zooming in closer I'm going to show you the concept plan. I think you have this in your packet. Wendt: Hey Todd real quick, that woodland area, is that, that's probably not going to be developed or is that part? Hoffman: It's part of the primary Bluff Creek corridor and it will not be developed. The property across the little alfalfa field, that could be developed and then the houses in the bottom corner are in Chaska. Wendt: Okay. Amy Bower: With Pioneer Pass Park concept plan, again I thought this was a great parcel to work with. We have plenty of room for the typical neighborhood park amenities that we want to put in. We have some great topography. You're going to be able to put in a sledding hill and some overlooks and again with some great natural features with the wooded area in the park and adjacent to the park. This parcel also has great visibility from Bluff Creek Boulevard. A lot of public viewing in and also has great connections to the future neighborhoods. All the sidewalks are connected by crosswalks in the plan. The ... to here you'll be connected with a sidewalk and some great connections. This park has the added feature of having a 10 foot kind of regional trail that links the rest of the city on one side of the park so really this concept only needs to put in a, kind of a loop here to complete almost a half mile loop within the park. Typical neighborhood parks is a really small parking lot for those that need to drive. It's a 20 stall lot. We have room for two age group play areas on a 5 to 12 and then a 2 through 5 and also a picnic 3 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 area. A shelter between those that offers a view of the open field area and views of the play areas. The half court hard, surface for basketball and other court ball games located near the parking lot and then there's room for a future ballfield with a backstop or kick ball or small pick up games of whiffle ball or baseball. As you can see they talk about ... this is almost 45, 35 to 45 foot drop in elevation so it's kind of a large sledding hill. We want to show here the brown trees would be new trees that need to be installed because I think this is a farm kind of field and then a lot of your trees are existing trees that would be preserved. So you can start with some wooded areas but you also need to do some plantings and get the shade and you just want more scenic park. I'm going to move on to Riley Ridge Park and then take questions. Cole Kelly: Amy can I interrupt you for a minute? I've got a question for Todd. Thank you for putting that back up. Todd I think you talked about this but just refresh my memory. The ballpark, and I see the open field that could be a soccer field type of thing. Now are we planning to open these up to some of the sports groups for them to play there or are we planning on this park just to be for walk -in for the neighborhood type pick up games or, what are the thoughts? Hoffman: Well the basis is that neighborhood parks are not scheduled but we have some that are and this one's large enough that I think it would become a point of conversation so the couple that are are North Lotus Lake Park. Meadow Green Park and those are the only, and then Sunset Ridge. Scharfenberg: Sunset Ridge, yeah. Hoffman: So we have a few neighborhood parks that are scheduled and I think this one would lend itself to possibly allowing for some practice activities because you have a parking lot which you could extend to even you know 24. Cole Kelly: And that's my question is if we were planning on that, the parking lot looks a little small to me and you know so what, you know what can we do because if you're going to have teams there and you know if the streets are big enough they're going to need to be out in the streets no matter what size we make the parking lot but you said there's room for the parking lot to be bigger. How much bigger and what are we thinking and should we be looking at that up front? Hoffinan: I think that's an appropriate conversation for the commission to have. Do you feel this is a site that could accommodate those activities. Scharfenberg: Is the Sunset Ridge parking lot a 20 space or is there a little bit more than that? Ruegemer: I don't think it's any more than 20. Hoffman: Not more than that because it's single stacked. It's not three stack like this one. Scharfenberg: Right. Right. Daniel: Are there parking issues there? 2 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Scharfenberg: I don't think so. The people that park at Sunset Ridge are usually able to, that are playing there are usually within the, I don't think I've driven by there when they've had t -ball that they're parked on the side of the road there on Lake Drive so I think that they're able to accommodate it for the most part. Because most of the people that go to the park at Sunset Ridge, if they're going to the park are neighbor people. They don't drive there to come to the park. It's people that are there to use the ballfield. Hoffinan: And the City before Bandimere and there was activities at Carver Beach. A variety of other neighborhood parks but those were pretty small and tight. Rice Marsh Lake, and a lot of parking issues and so that was the basis once Bandimere was developed that we would take those activities out of those neighborhood park sites but again I think this one lends itself. You know you heard tonight some of the desires of the candidates utilized and I think that would be one way. You wouldn't have to schedule this 5 nights a week but you could schedule it. Cole Kelly: Right. Well I'm looking at that you know, being a former soccer coach and player I see that nice, big field and it'd be a shame not to utilize it. You know especially put it in the rotation so to speak but you do, you know then you're going to have parking and cars stacked all over and so what's the answer to that? You know can we make the parking lot a little bigger and is the street going to be big enough to handle cars parking on one side or both sides and then do you have to put signs up no parking on this side or something like that. Hoffman: We'll get you the answers on the street. I'm not certain on what the accommodations will be there just yet. Daniel: Yeah and I think if there's going to be any concern it would be, I think multiple events with practices one after another or a combination of the ballfields being used with the open field practicing but you know certainly if we have to stay within the scope of the design right here, it would certainly limit what we'd be able to do but certainly I would be in favor of seeing it used in some sort of capacity. Cole Kelly: Right. Daniel: For recreation. Cole Kelly: I'd be in favor of a bigger parking lot if we can accommodate that. Daniel: Any other questions? Scharfenberg: We're going to come back to that. Amy Bower: You can come back to it. Cole Kelly: Thank you Amy. Daniel: ...specifics with regards to the discussion. 5 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Amy Bower: The Riley Ridge Park plan shows the context again. Riley Ridge Park is a 4.8 acre parcel near Riley Lake and as you can see there's no residential... but there's more yet to come. Again this is I think a great parcel because it has good visibility from Lyman Boulevard. To keep some of your Chanhassen open space visible from driving through it. Also adjacent to a really large open space wetland so it helps make that part of the park as well. Again it also includes zoom into the concept plan. The concept plan, I just told you that north is, to the east now... Lyman Boulevard is over on this side and again this park has great topography features that make the park interesting. It allows us to get a smaller sledding hill in here but nonetheless it has some very good topography. It's not just a flat plane. It has great woodland area already adjacent to it and a wetland in it and adjacent to it and a greater wetland overlooking it. The park is also going to be well connected to the neighborhoods. It has good sidewalk connections within this neighborhood. Crosswalks. Lyman Boulevard has a big city wide trail on the south side of it to bring people in from further. If I talk about the park features, this park's a little smaller. We have a 10 stall parking lot. Smaller trail loop that's a quarter of a mile and trail loop is nice because it starts angled to the woods and comes open spaces. We have just one room for one play area. A court. Hard surface court area and a picnic area, a pavilion could be nicely nestled right on the hillside overlooking the playground and also looking at slope and the woodlands. Park signs near the parking lot. It'd also be nice to have a park sign on the intersection of Lyman and Riley Ridge Drive so that people know this is a public park. I think it's yet to be seen how this outlot is handled. There might be an option for an informal trail out to, further into the wetland and a bench or something. A natural surface trail. Hoffinan: It's all going to be public space so it will all be owned by the City so the park will, in the end we'll actually call it you know 15 or 20 acres or whatever it is, the wetland. 10 acres maybe. Daniel: Is that publicly owned? Hoffinan: Yes. It'd be owned by the City. Daniel: Okay. Amy Bower: Again the concept is suggesting keeping the edge next to Lyman Boulevard more unmowed and trees and shrubbed up to add kind of a buffer on that side of the park and other areas, the darker being shows unmowed areas. Not mowed. Not high maintenance. And again the brown trees would be trees that would need to be planted because it's open space right now and if you try to preserve... Again both these parcels have pretty good natural features to begin with and we've fit in some of the typical neighborhood park amenities and you can see how they fit in very nicely and welcome any comments or any more suggestions you might have. Hoffman: One more thing. Neighborhoods need sewer and water lines as well and Amy if you can just describe how that ties into this site plan and what the impacts are. Amy Bower: We were working back and forth with this, with the engineer that's grading this and I keep sending my grading plans and they go okay. So the sewer lines, I think the idea is not G Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 to bury it too deep because it's hard to maintain but not to remove a lot of trees so where we thought, Todd I don't remember where. Hoffman: Right along the back and then it's going to be directionally bored from there up to. Amy Bower: It just serves ... so the compromise they came up with. Hoffinan: So the engineering staff, Hoisington- Koegler and then the developer's engineer worked on the siting for the sewer. Originally it was much higher up on the park and would have been a 30 foot trench and in the future you know a sewer line's going to have to be dug up at some point and you would basically destroy much of this park to maintain that sewer line so we pushed it down. Got it into a more appropriate location. Much of it is along that trail and so if you needed access for maintenance you could access via that trail. And then the last piece we worked with the applicant, the developer /applicant to directionally bore it so you don't disturb that mass of trees that goes through there and makes for a nicer trail experience as you walk this neighborhood trail. Daniel: Okay. Questions. Comments. I think obviously there's, if you look at a proposed motion, the name. Any concerns as far as activities. Anything's on the board here I think. Hoffman: And physical layout is important so we want your comments on the physical layout. Facilities that you see there so we can fine tune this for you. Cole Kelly: Again my concern is, and this one is more of a park where people are going to walk to but 10 stalls seems kind of light to me. Are we trying not to take down trees, is that one of the reasons or? Hoffman: Just there's no ballfield. Cole Kelly: I understand that. And I'm not saying we need a big parking lot but. Hoffinan: Historically in this kind of setting 10 stalls is going to accommodate. Cole Kelly: Okay. Majority. Daniel: What does Curry Farms have? Hoffinan: Vast majority. Daniel: Is that 10 or oh is that 8? Hoffman: Might be 8 or 10. Sugarbush is very similar. Basically it's moms and dads with kids with strollers and younger ones that drive down to the playground or taking a walk into it but I think it will accommodate and we have limited site here to expand. The other one. Cole Kelly: We do, right. 7 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Daniel: If you're really like where I live with Curry Farms. I mean you take away using the open space I guess once in a while for practices on the little kiddie soccer. Outside of that. Hoffman: Two cars. Daniel: Two at the most. Cole Kelly: Then it's not an issue. Daniel: Probably more popular in the winter for sledding. When they come over from other neighborhoods. Tom Kelly: I know as an adult I would really like that trail that goes through the wooded area. I know as a teenager I would really like that trail that goes through the wooded area. You have about 150 teenagers across the road in the Springfield neighborhood so I don't know if that's a concern that you have or not. Hoffman: No. Tom Kelly: Okay. It wouldn't be my son but it'd be all these other people. Hoffman: A good opportunity for the leaders in that group to lead them in the right direction. Scharfenberg: Tom, you can be the look out. Daniel: Scott. Wendt: No. I really like the design of the Riley Ridge Park. It's kind what we were picturing I think when we were talking about it all along so. Other than that, yeah I don't know how many parking spaces we could squeeze into the other one. What would make it worthwhile or not. I mean even if you got four 8's you know, that's probably a guesstimate probably, or park along the road if you know, for an event. Cole Kelly: So Todd is this in the CIP yet? Hoffman: No. The development is not. And Amy and her colleagues have, they've done some cost estimating. From what I can see, I believe that we'll be coming back once we get to that point with doing a lot of this work in -house and we have the expertise and the ability on staff to complete the majority of the work and then we can also act as the general contractor in the project. And I think create an ability to complete both of these sites in a timely fashion. Once the neighborhoods start to grow it's difficult to see a wheat field which is intended to be a neighborhood park and so we would like to work with the commission to hopefully facilitate their development and I think we can do that in- house. And so then you're starting to take a look at costs like playgrounds and asphalt and you know instead of overall development. There's you know, not that we want to keep the job market any lower with the dirt movers but there's a lot of, Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 that are involved in all that and we can do that stuff in- house. We have heavy equipment operators. People that can build these parks and that is really the basis of our entire parks, neighborhood park system. Most of them were built in- house. Cole Kelly: Okay. Hoffman: But no dollars are currently allocated in the CIP. You'll be seeing that as a part of this year's CIP process we'll start programming those dollars in. Or making recommendations to the program... Tom Kelly: I think a lesson, I know we're years away from it but a lesson learned from Bandimere that you may want to consider is, I'm not certain how useful a 2 through 5 play lot is because the kids seem to always migrate to the big one anyway so I don't know if you want to put money into two separate lots or just put money into one bigger lot because I think, if I could go back 5 -6 years at Bandimere and maybe we wouldn't put that second lot in. Stolar: When we did the neighborhood parks, I think almost all of them said they didn't want the 2 to 5. They wanted more money on the regular one. Hoffman: I think we had one mention it tonight. Lake Susan is popular because you get enough kids there. The younger ones want to migrate down or the parents to the smaller one but a neighborhood park setting we don't have quite that level of use. And it's also a CPSC, Consumer Product Safety Commission guideline and so as an agency we really should be taking a look at that and at least challenging the commission to say this is a neighborhood that should or should not have that type of facility. Tom Kelly: Okay. Ryan: I think it's a, I have kids between those ages and I think it's really nice to have that. The frustration comes or the challenge comes is that they're often put too far apart and so when you have you know a child that's 5 that may want to be, if you know he can play on the older structure. The little one's going to want to follow and you can't have them at two different places so I think the younger, you know the smaller age group would, it would get utilized more if it was closer to the bigger facility. Tom Kelly: One more question too about the other park. Not the one on the screen but the one over at Pioneer. I realize a sledding hill isn't as long as it is on Powers Hill but how does the gradient of this proposed sledding hill compare to the one at Powers? Is it as steep? Hoffman: It's going to be similar. Tom Kelly: Okay. Hoffman: And the difference here is this is going to be a southwest facing slope which is going to have more melting. 9 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Tom Kelly: Okay. Stolar: A lot this year. Hoffinan: Power Hill is west. Ideal. The other one, the smaller hill is ideal. It's facing north so. And then we're going to have to work with the runoff. The bottom runoff. The developer already performed some of the grading and so we're going to have to take a look at that and see if we have to modify the grading so we have sufficient runoff at the bottom of this hill because it doesn't matter if you call it a sledding hill or not. Once you have a hill in a neighborhood park or a community park site, it's going to be a sledding hill so we want to make sure that we design it and build it appropriately. Ryan: And what kind of pond is it? Is it any kind of a visual. Hoffman: It's a storm water pond. Ryan: Oh, okay. Hoffman: The developer might try to dress it up but it's a storm water pond. Ryan: Would there be an opportunity to put a wooded path down to that or is there nothing to really see down there? Down there with a bench or. Amy Bower: Yeah the developer just grading, maxing out the ridge to it and ... do you want people just to look at it or do you want people to wander down there and get too closer to it. Hoffman: Yeah I think the trails that we have there are appropriate for this kind of site. The one on the road and then the other. It's really a challenge to get down and back up that grade. Amy Bower: Yeah I suppose up here you could see down but from here to here... Hoffinan: Straight down. Ryan: Oh it is. Scharfenberg: Regarding Pioneer Pass, I get the whole loop thing but Amy did you look at potentially taking the loop and shortening it and bringing it more from the court to the south side or north side of the court and coming that way? Just as a ball player with a trail running through the middle of the outfield, sometimes if that, you know the field is used that way. Amy Bower: Having this trail on the outfield? Scharfenberg: Or just getting rid of that part of it and moving it way over to the. Amy Bower: Just bringing it in? 10 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Scharfenberg: Right. That way. Was that something that you considered at all or? Amy Bower: Yeah I think so that one time but then we didn't want to mess up this kind of space so it's. Scharfenberg: Okay. Amy Bower: And I don't know, having an edge to this helps just speeds up the ball right when it hits... And you know offering people views over the hill too. And I don't know 180, it's a pretty small... Hoffman: Yeah, there's not going to be a lot of kids there but to maximize that, if that trail stays there to maximize that separation is what you would be after if it stayed there. Scharfenberg: Yeah. Stolar: There's a question whether, given that's all you want to do in 180 feet, is that the best use of that piece of land or might that be something where you would have fields that you could use for other purposes. I don't think that's finalized yet has it? Hoffman: What would you schedule there? Ruegemer: You know probably young age. Probably 8 or so or under. Girls softball would be appropriate for that location. 180 feet is fairly standard for a youth sized field. Scharfenberg: Youth size, okay. Stolar: I guess that's what we have over at the Rec Center. Hoffman: And the scheduling would flip flop. I don't think we would want to put, for both the neighborhood and then the parking so if you scheduled Lacrosse or soccer on the open field you would leave the ballfield open for the neighborhood so if somebody came down to fly a kite or throw a Frisbee they'd have that space and vice versa so that would also play into the calculation of how many stalls we would be looking at for the parking. Stolar: So based on that usage the trail may not be an issue because it may be further out the teams will be retrieving on other than ones that get past them. Hoffman: At that age, yeah. A lot of them don't make it that far. Cole Kelly: So what we're looking to approve tonight is the plans? Hoffman: Concept plans. Cole Kelly: Yeah, concept plans and any modifications that we think necessary. 11 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Hoffman: Correct. Cole Kelly: I mean I like the plans how they look. At Pioneer Pass I think we should start out though with the largest possible parking lot we can get. That'd be my opinion. Even at Bandimere, which is a great, great facility. I've been there when there's parking issues and no matter what size we make the parking lot there's going to be parking issues and I know that so you look at it and say okay, what's the biggest we can fit to make it, for it to make sense and then we go with that and that's what it is, would be my opinion. Hoffinan: Well I would think if we, the largest neighborhood parking lot we have would be, this would be about it. We're already at 20. Stolar: What's North Lotus? Hoffinan: Less than that. It's close to this one. Stolar: But you can park on both sides. Hoffman: Yeah. 24 stalls. There's a point of diminishing returns as well so 24 -26 stalls is I think where we would stay. Trying to bring that in at. Stolar: The thing is there's really short windows of time when you're going to need that parking and there's a bunch of windows of time where you won't. Hoffman: Yeah, it's just blank space. Stolar: So figuring out that balance is going to be the tough part but I would say, you know how is this in relation to the size of like Lotus? North Lotus Park. About the same acreage? Hoffman: Slightly less. Stolar: Slightly less. Hoffinan: About 3 acres less. Stolar: So it would seem to me whatever we have over there. See I thought we had more. I thought we had about 20 over there too. Hoffinan: We'll have to count them up. Ryan: I think we need to be cognizant of, this is a neighborhood park and not everybody is involved in sports and coaching and what not and when we go to present this to the neighborhood to say that we're going to have a 26 stall parking lot that we're going to invite you know people from all around the community to come and utilize your park, you know some people may not like, you know like having that so I think we still need to be mindful of that. This is a neighborhood parking lot and you know to keep it within the scale of everything else. 12 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Daniel: I think going back to what Cole had said, the expansion of the parking lot. If it's feasible and if it makes sense and Elise I certainly have taken into consideration your same, given the lack of open space that we do have though and the need for filling recreational needs, 20 stalls in my mind I think is a good. If we're able to get a couple more stalls that'd be great. Out of it. I think just you're right, everything counts. I don't know the parking structure on what Bluff Creek Boulevard will contain and how much traffic there's going to be there so that I don't know if it's been studied or not but that's certainly to take into consideration. The small 2 to 5 age park certainly I would say in the future is something that we may not necessarily need to play for when we get to that point. My only other comment would be on Riley to make sure that there's no good humor on the park and recreation side of the business and you don't put the basketball hoop right next to the hill there. Just trust me, two boys who played down at Curry Farms all the time, they'll be walking all day long down that hill and missing. We're almost sending them out to the pond half the time so, but I think the overall layouts are taking advantage of exactly what we have. I do like the loops and I think actually that little dip into the woods there I think will be something very unique for a small neighborhood park. I don't know if we really have that in any of our parks. I mean as far as neighborhood parks are concerned. And then with regards to the, as I mentioned the amenities that are going to be available over at Pioneer Pass, they're both going to be just fantastic so I think when we get to the point of planning with CIP obviously you want to take into consideration, you're right Todd. It's just not an open field right now. What are the amenities are going to be important that we can start laying out, so they can start utilizing much sooner than later. Whether it be playground equipment to the paths, or the trails I should say to the basketball courts, whatever it may be. Hoffinan: Yeah what you're going to find in that process is it makes sense just about to complete the entire site. There's not a lot of steps that can be left out. Once you grade, mass grade you know and fill. Once you start on asphalt you build the parking lot. You build the trails. You build the basketball. It's done. You grade the site. You seed it. You start planting trees and so we'll put a package together. One thing I do, can we put that Pioneer Pass? Are you comfortable with that separation between that road and the playground? I hadn't really thought about that. I'd be interested to hear Amy's comments on that and then the commission's as well. Daniel: What's the distance from the, approximately? From the road to the edge of the playground. Amy Bower: ...the way this trail and with kind of a trail separation. Hoffman: 40 feet to the trail? Amy Bower: So maybe 60, yeah. Scharfenberg: So what is your concern Todd? That kids would run out towards the road? Hoffman: My concern is the, yeah. The buffer distance for a parent to grab a kid and stuff. So if there was some attraction on the road that the kid looked at and the playground and they started going for the road or the trail, did the parent have the reaction time or should we try to, 13 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 are people comfortable with that? Bluff Creek Boulevard is going to be a busy road. It's going to be a major connector to Pioneer Boulevard and there's going to be a large volume of traffic on that road. Daniel: I think if you start to move the orientation of what Amy has laid out, then we start impacting the open field spot. We start impacting other areas. I mean I can see possibly where you want to flip flop maybe the court would be, with the playground but then you've got other issues with the basketball court. Stolar: But with a basketball court it's a little bit less of an issue. Well for some would. Hoffinan: It'd be older kids on the basketball court. Stolar: Plus the other idea being able to see from the parking lot the kids on the play field if you switch them around. You have better visibility. Whereas here you would, yeah I know it's an older kids playground but you don't actually have visibility from the car to go back to the car. Ryan: As well as parents that have their kids playing baseball you know. Daniel: It'd be right there across the parking lot. That's a very good point. Same with soccer, lacrosse or whatever event they want to use for the other field. Maybe that's something that we would make a recommendation on is to have that, the playground and the court flip flop. Hoffman: Amy what were your thoughts when you designed it? Amy Bower: Oh, no that starts to make sense too because I know yeah if you have your kids and you're at an event, you want the playground nearby and that'd be quite a distance. It mainly was just to keep this whole area more, with a more open field. I think at one time we had the court over here. Daniel: You can still maintain it based off the width. We're just going, based off the width. Still length wise we can go out a little bit further. Stolar: Yeah, even if it doesn't keep that open, there's plenty of open space to either the left or right of it so yeah. Plenty. Ryan: And then you eliminate the actual 2 to 5 play area but maybe integrate some of the structures onto one. Hoffinan: You can't do that. Ryan: Oh you can't? Has to be totally separate? Amy Bower: And then if I bring the picnic area down you know to this area too so it's closer to the playground... 14 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Hoffinan: Yeah that's the, those guidelines mandate separated and if you do, either one or the other or both but you cannot combine them. Ryan: Okay. Hoffinan: It's just too confusing for the parents when they use these. Visually obviously it'd be very attractive. People would see that playground. I think you're still going to be able to see it on the other side of the parking lot if you choose to move it over there. Daniel: Oh I think you would, yeah. I know for years now that, it'll be years before those trees really develop or mature so you'll be able to see right through. Hoffman: Yeah, and there's enough separation there for a basketball. You can landscape it as well to slow down, keep your balls off. Daniel: I think that would be the, yeah. Put in shrubs or something or slight berm. Hoffinan: Are you comfortable with that? Amy Bower: So putting the court over here, yes... Daniel: I think the other thing you could do is, I mean you could put it certainly closer to the parking lot as well. Wendt: What size is that court shown there? Amy Bower: 55 by 55. Hoffinan: And what do we, 50 by 50's probably. Ruegemer: Yeah, that sounds about right. Tom Kelly: Is that a half court basketball or is that full court? Hoffinan: Half court. Tom Kelly: So you could line the baskets so it's, so missed shots wouldn't go into the street. Hoffman: Yeah, it's a single basket, yeah. You play half court. Amy Bower: Yeah, that would help. Play so ... 60 feet from the trail and stuff so. Stolar: So on the bottom here, is that, is there a development over here at the bottom? Hoffman: Oh huh. That's Liberty at Bluff Creek. 300 some units.\ 15 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Stolar: And they have access over here through these. Hoffinan: Either through the main sidewalk or to that, the main trail or the single sidewalk access point. The grades start to prohibit other access points as you move to the south. Stolar: So it's only these two right? Hoffinan: Yep. Amy Bower: So those exist right now. The sidewalks... We're proposing a connection into the park. Stolar: Because I was just going to say if you end up moving the playground here, if we end up doing that, when we talk about this now eliminates this open field. Then Steve's thought about, I don't know about necessarily getting rid of the one leg of the trail but you could have a trail going through the playground. That way a family coming from here, goes over here. Walks in and then goes straight to the playground. Through the trail system. Something to think about also. If we do that other move. Daniel: I would say based off the size of the development that is around both Pioneer Pass and Liberty Heights, Liberty Heights just has a pool and that's a community pool? That's part of their association fee? Hoffinan: Yeah I don't know what. Daniel: I don't know if they have a park do they? Maybe a small playground or. Hoffinan: Pool and a little walking... Daniel: Okay. Then you're going to talk about a very popular park. So I mean that's right at the heart of their center between obviously the round about there but knowing the development that's, I think it's going to be extremely popular. Hoffinan: They're very excited. They will be well represented at your neighborhood meetings. Daniel: So and I do think, you know I think everyone's agreeing that we're moving that park. That we should move the playground. Separate behind the parking lot on the west side there. Hoffman: Anything else on Pioneer Pass that you're seeing? We'll work, we'll play with that trail alignment as well. Those connections. People especially with strollers and really do like that hard surface connection to those type of amenities. And moms. Ryan: Yes we do. 16 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Amy Bower: So I hear you switching the court over here and putting the playground more central which really makes sense to me now that I think about it because with your kids out, they want to be able to see the playground. And the parking lot, you deem that suitable for now? Hoffman: Yeah, 24 to 26 I think is what we'll look at and see if it fits. And then we'll take a look at some of the larger and do a calculation on, if you scheduled you know 10 cars per team is. Ruegemer: Little light. Hoffman: Yeah. Ruegemer: I'd say 24. Add 12. Cole Kelly: If you say we're going to have a large volume of traffic on Bluff Creek Boulevard it's even more important to try and fit a few more cars in there I think. Hoffman: Yep, absolutely. Yeah the people that live out in the Degler developments are already utilizing this. They're very excited to have this second connection and the connection that's going to continue through this whole neighborhood over to Powers Boulevard eventually through the Dorsey property, you know that could be 10 -15 years so this is an important connector. Even when those other, that other connection is made, this is going to continue to be a cut through because people want to make their way over to 212 and this is a way they're going to go. Daniel: Alright Pioneer Pass, any other comments? Okay how about Riley Ridge Park? Hoffman: It's a tongue twister. Daniel: It is. Pioneer Pass Park and Riley Ridge Park. Ryan: I think we should again consider the, where the play area is in relation to the parking lot. If that matters on this layout or not. Stolar: Isn't it an issue with the grade though because of the hill there. Hoffman: Really what you're working with is the only available and useable space. Ryan: Okay. Amy Bower: There's a parking lot kind of a flat area and then 5% slope coming up to the flat area and then everything's kind of 5% maxed out and the intention here is to have to grade it and have berms here and here to separate the playground more from any streets. Daniel: What's the distance from the parking lot approximately? Best guess. The playground. Amy Bower: It's about 60 also. 17 Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Daniel: From the parking lot itself? So probably about, maybe 100. Amy Bower: Yeah. Hoffman: Is there an opportunity to put it at the base of the hill there or not? Amy Bower: Yeah, just move all. Hoffman: Right here. Amy Bower: We could have, you know the court would be at one layer and the playground at another. Kind of you know plateaus. Tom Kelly: Do you worry about runoff from water if you had the playground at the base of the hill? Is it always going to be wet? Hoffman: We have, could be a challenge depending on. Amy Bower: Yeah this is still all up high and then sloping that way. So you're saying you'd like to see the playground... Ryan: No I mean not that 1, I don't mind walking to a park certainly so just considering you know moms carrying a lot of their things and you know making the back and forth from the playground to the parking lot. Just something to consider. But if the grading doesn't allow it then I think that's understandable in this situation as well. Hoffman: You can throw your kid from the car to the playground. Daniel: What we could do what we did at Curry just put it at the bottom of the field, at the bottom of the hill down there. That's one heck of a long time. Ryan: I know. Daniel: Okay. Any other comments or changes that you would want to propose or suggest or discuss? Okay. If not why don't we go ahead and motion to, or propose a motion for the department's suggestions to the City Council with the addition of the changes to Pioneer Pass that we'll list and I think those changes are change, flip flop the basketball court and playground location and then evaluate the parking lot size of 24 spaces. Does that sound about right? Okay Someone want to go ahead and make that motion? Wendt: So moved. Cole Kelly: Second. Park and Recreation Commission - February 22, 2011 Wendt moved, Cole Kelly seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council approve the proposed park concept plans for new neighborhood parks to be located in "Reflections at Lake Riley" and "Pioneer Pass" with changes to Pioneer Pass Park flip flopping the basketball court and playground locations and evaluating the parking lot size of 24 spaces, and approving the park names of "Riley Ridge Park" and "Pioneer Pass Park ". All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0. Daniel: Will that work Todd? Excellent. Alright, thank you Amy. I appreciate it. CONSIDER 2011/2012 LAKE ANN PARK BEACH CONTRACT WITH MINNETONKA COMMUNITY EDUCATION AND SERVICES. Ruegemer: Thanks Chair Daniels. The City of Chanhassen has contracted with Minnetonka Public Schools for the provision of lifeguard services at Lake Ann Park since the 70's. 1970's with that so it's been a long time. Have had a long, really great history with the Minnetonka Public Schools. The City and Minnetonka have worked together to develop a new contract format which I believe now is our third multi year contract. Or third contract of a multi year. Hoffman: Arrangement. Ruegemer: Arrangement. Thank you for that. The City Council definitely has endorsed kind of this concept as well for a multi year. It really seems to be a really efficient way of doing the contracting with that and we certainly endorse it as well. The, going through the last multi year contract that was 2009 -2010 contract years we did reduce at that time the service hours and the duration of the dates and how long the beach was open during the course of the summer. That certainly did lower costs without affecting or impacting our beach users so at that time we dropped from the hours of 10:30 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. were the old hours and we did reduce those from 11:00 to 7:00 and that didn't really have any negative impact on our beach users and that really was a, really a great way of doing that. In looking at the attached list of options, I'm recommending that we take a look at Option A and that would essentially be the same contract that we've had for the 2010 season with that. We're going to take a look at that dollar amount, the 2010 contract amount was $27,388. With the new proposal on the table for 2011 and 2012, the contract amount increase $141 for basically the contract amount would stay the same for 2011 and 2012 so it seems to be a really good option for us for another 2 year contract to take care of 2011 and 2012 so staff is recommending that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council approve the attached 2011/2012 Lake Ann Lifeguard Services Contract with Minnetonka Public Schools. This contract includes providing lifeguard services 7 days per week from 11:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. The beaches will be open from June 11 through August 14, 2011 and June 9 th through August 19 2012. The contract fee is proposed to be at $27,529 per year and that is consistent with Option A on the list of options. Funding for this contract is included in the Lake Ann Park Operations budget for 2011 and will be again budgeted in 2012. Daniel: Okay. Jerry what do you mean by initially, the initial proposed 2011/2012 contract that you enlisted here was $26,674 for 11 and 12? 19