2j Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
WORK SESSION
DECEMBER 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen called the work session meeting to order at 5:35 p.m.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Boyle, Councilman Ayotte,
Councilman Peterson, and Councilman Labatt
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Kate Aanenson, Todd Hoffman, Jill Sinclair, and Teresa Burgess
PUBLIC PRESENT: Cindy DeFaco, Linda Walton, and Vicky Webber
A. DISCUSSION ON THE CITY CENTER COMMONS LANDSCAPE PLAN.
Todd Gerhardt introduce Damon Farber, the landscape architect for the library project to the City
Council members. Damon Farber then showed a slide presentation of examples of the projects his firm
has done around the country and examples of different architectural elements to consider. Mayor Jansen
asked the City Council members how to proceed with the process of appointing a landscape architect for
the project. Councilman Ayotte asked if there were time constraints to consider. Mayor Jansen stated
that hopefully the City would have a design concept in place by the time of the library's groundbreaking,
which would in April-May of 2002. She stated that the Library Building Committee could be asked to
continue meeting with the landscape architect on the Commons area as well as the library landscaping.
Councilman Peterson stated he was comfortable with that suggestion, if the committee was enhanced
with other members as well. Linda Walton suggested that someone from the Chamber of Commerce also
be on that committee. Mayor Jansen suggest that one member from the Park and Recreation
Commission, a City Council person, and someone from the Chamber of Commerce. Damon Farber
suggested that someone from planning and parks and rec would be critical to the process. After
discussion it was decided that the committee consist of the current members of the Library Building
Committee, one Park and Recreation Commission person, one person from the Chamber of Commerce,
and Councilman Peterson who would cover for both the City Council and Planning Commission for a
total of 9 people. Councilman Peterson suggested that if someone from the building committee were to
drop out, then to appoint someone from the Planning Commission.
Mayor Jansen then asked how the City Council wanted to proceed choosing an architect. It was decided
to continue this discussion at the end of the regular City Council meeting.
Be
UPDATE ON WATER TREATMENT PROJECT ADVISORY COMMITTEE
APPLICANTS.
Teresa Burgess outlined the applicants and stated she didn't immediately see any conflicts of interest
with any of them. Mayor Jansen asked about the committee make-up. Teresa Burgess suggested that the
City Council appoint all the applicants to the advisory committee but choose only 3 to assist with the
process of interviewing consultants. The City Council discussed the different applicants and decided
who they would formally appoint at the City Council meeting.
Mayor Jansen adjourned the work session meeting at 7:00 p.m.
Submitted by Todd Gerhardt
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
DECEMBER 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen called the meeting to order at 7:10 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to
the Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Boyle,
Councilman Ayotte, and Councilman Peterson
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Teresa Burgess, Todd Hoffman, Bruce DeJong,
Kate Aanenson, Jill Sinclair, and Kelley Janes
PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS:
Linda Landsman
Julianne Ortman
Melissa Brechow
Alison Blackowiak
Janet & Jerry Paulsen
7329 Frontier Trail
8698 Chanhassen Hills Drive No.
8634 Wood Cliff Circle
8116 Erie Circle
7305 Laredo Drive
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to approve the
following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
a. Establish 2002 City Council Meeting Schedule.
bo
Approval of On-Sale Beer License Request, February Festival, Lake Ann Park, Chanhassen
Lions Club.
Co
Approve City Code Amendment to Sections 20-575 and 20-595 Requiring One Unit Per 10 Acre
Density for Subdivision Outside the Metropolitan Urban Services Area (MUSA).
d.
Approve Amendment to the Planned Unit Development for Arboretum Business Park to Revise
the Permitted Uses within the Development Similar to the Permitted Uses in the Industrial Office
Park District, Steiner Development.
eo
Resolution g2001-85: Receive Feasibility Report; Call Public Hearing for the Trunk Highway
101 Trail, Project 97-12-3.
Resolution//2001-86: Approve Change Order No. 2 to BC-7 & BC-8, Trunk Utility
Improvement Project 00-01.
go
h,
Approve Water Treatment Request for Qualifications.
Approve Water Reservoir Winterizing Contract, as amended.
i. Approval of Bills.
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Approval of Minutes:
- City Council Minutes dated November 1, 2001
- City Council Work Session Minutes dated November 26, 2001
- City Council Minutes dated November 26, 2001
Receive Commission Minutes:
- Planning Commission Minutes dated November 20, 2001
- Park & Recreation Commission Minutes dated November 27, 2001
k.
Partial Release of Contract for Private Redevelopment and Partial Release of Site Plan
Agreement for Lot 3, Block 1, Park One 4th Addition.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 5 to 0.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
LAW ENFORCEMENT & FIRE DEPARTMENT UPDATE:
Sgt. Dave Potts: Good evening Mayor, Council members. I got on quick this evening. Man, things are
moving along. That's nice. This of course will be the early edition of my monthly report. Normally I'm
here in front of the council later in the month, but of course that falls on Christmas Eve this year so I'm
here a little early. With regard to the attachments I have to my memo for the month, do council members
have any questions regarding either the Sheriff's Area Report or the Work Plan Summary?
Mayor Jansen: Any questions for Sergeant Potts?
Councilman Boyle: Just one. Under traffic, or am I jumping ahead? Maybe not. 2001 year to date
shows 2,396 citations I assume. Versus last year we did 1,387. Or you did 1,387. That's quite a large
increase.
Sgt. Dave Ports: Why don't you give me.
Councilman Boyle: That's down at the bottom. Second to the last non-criminal.
Sgt. Dave Potts: Where it talks about traffic?
Councilman Boyle: Yes.
Sgt. Dave Potts: Okay, traffic would include traffic stops that officers make. That would include people
calling in to report some traffic hazards. Something in the roadway. It includes quite a number of things,
not specifically citations. We do have a citation report that hasn't been available to the council for a few
months now due to our software glitches and our new record system. But hopefully, as I mentioned in
the work plan summary, the software is going to be coming along and improving as we go on here and
we'll be getting a little better information.
Councilman Boyle: Okay, thank you.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Any other questions?
City Council Meeting- December 10, 2001
Sgt. Dave Potts: Okay. The only thing I have to mention then that was the robbery seminar that we did.
That was held, or hosted jointly by Chanhassen Crime Prevention and the Sheriff's Office. Was again on
December 4th at the Chanhassen Rec Center. Our Chief Deputy Denny Owens opened up with some
introductory comments and introductions of the speakers. I was the first speaker, clarifying the
difference between robbery and burglary because that's a common misconception that people have.
Where burglary is the breaking into a building or a residence, something like that and a robbery is taking
property from a person. Such as going into a bank and demanding money from the tellers, something like
that. And then went into explain how officers handle the initial call of a robbery, because a robbery is a
very serious crime. It's considered a crime of violence, whether or not any violence actually occurs.
And then Detective Roger Roach followed me and discussed the robbery investigations, but more
specifically talked about our Chanhassen robberies that have occurred. Kind of clarify some of the issues
and misconceptions that some of our business people might have regarding those incidents. Our County
Attorney Mike Fahey followed with discussion about prosecuting those cases and the follow-up from the
County Attorney standpoint. And Crime Prevention Specialist Beth Hoiseth finished up with talking
about security policies, procedures and employee training for businesses and services that she can
provide. So it came off very well. We had a lot of positive comments on it and something we'll
probably look at doing in the future with just different subjects that come to light from time to time.
Mayor Jansen: I'm sorry, did you say how many were in attendance at the seminar?
Councilman Ayotte: 14 businesses.
Sgt. Dave Potts: I was going to say between 13 and 15 businesses so I was pretty close there. And
maybe 25-30 people in attendance all together. Something like that.
Mayor Jansen: Well very good. Sounds excellent.
Sgt. Dave Potts: Worked out well. Any other questions or comments from council?
Mayor Jansen: Thank you for including your work report. Work plan report from 2001. Appreciated
that. Everything looked fine there. Thank you.
Sgt. Dave Potts: Okay. And I will be getting council, I thought I'd just do it by e-mail. Sending out a
blank form for 2002 and then getting on the agenda for an upcoming work session of the council so we
can discuss that as we have in the last couple of years. Put one together for next year.
Mayor Jansen: Very good.
Sgt. Dave Potts: Thank you.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Have a nice holiday. And do we have a representative from the fire
department here this evening. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm looking straight past you Mark. Sorry about that. And
then our update on the fire department from Mark Littfin.
Mark Littfin: Good evening. Fire Chief John Wolff was not able to make it tonight. He's on a business
trip in Portland so I got the honors to stop over tonight. At our December business meeting we had our
fire chief elections and John Wolff was re-elected to Fire Chief of the Fire Department for the next 2
years so everything will stay status quo on that. Calls for the year, up to about 736. We're about 66
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
ahead of last year. We're anticipating anywhere between 790 and 800 calls by the end of the year.
We're averaging about 18 calls a week right now. Our divers were just in the, actually we're doing some
ice rescue training tonight on one of the ponds but it's getting hard to find ice even this time of year. But
if we ever get any and we have to go under it, we've got about 10 divers that are certified to go under the
ice for rescue and recovery if needed so we're continually training with that. Last month our new fire
fighter probation group, we just had 7 of them just pass the state certification test and our own in-house
Fire Fighter I class so we have 7 brand new Fire Fighter I candidates on our fire department that can all
respond to calls. As far as calls within the city or outside, we responded to one neighboring community a
couple weeks ago for, with our HAZMAT group to help them with a meth lab. Taking out the chemicals
and inventorying and all that so we're starting to see a little bit of that. We haven't had any major calls
in the city other than an occasional medical or car accident or fire alarm so nothing major on that. No
anthrax calls along that line. We did recently send out 2 checks to, from our fund raising. They were
approximately $30,000 each. We found a couple of funds that, in checking out how they were going to
be distributed within the police and fire fighters in New York, those were mailed out about 2 weeks ago.
And we're just been approached also by the Boy Scouts to see if they want to do any type of a Boy
Scout/Explorer fire fighter program so we're going to be meeting with them this week here so. Evidently
there's high school kids that are on scouts that are, could be future fire fighters so we're going to start
tapping that resource.
Mayor Jansen: Oh, that sounds excellent. Great.
Mark Littfin: So looking forward to that. Any questions or concerns?
Mayor Jansen: Any questions for Mark at this time? No. No questions. Thank you for being here this
evening and the update on John Wolff being re-elected. Appreciate that. Hope you all have happy
holidays. Our best wishes back to the department.
Mark Littfin: Thank you. I'll pass that on so hopefully it will be quiet.
Mayor Jansen: Thanks.
DISCUSSION OF SERVICES TO BE PROVIDED AT THE CARVER COUNTY HOUSEHOLD
HAZARDOUS WASTE FACILITY IN CHASKA
Jill Sinclair: Thank you Mayor. The Carver County Household Hazardous Waste and Recycling facility
is proposed to open on July 1, 2002 when the current facility, Field of Dreams Recycling Center will
close. The proposed services to be offered are equal to those currently offered at Field of Dreams with
two additional services. A product re-use area and an educational resources and materials area. County
staff informally requested the City to provide them with any additional feedback, service request or other
information pertinent to the operation. At this time staff would like City Council to provide them with
direction as to how to gather this information or public input and after compiling all that, staff would like
to come back say in January with that information and have recommendations for the council.
Mayor Jansen: Great. Thanks for the update. Appreciate it. And I think all of council received the
invitation to attend the Environmental Commission meeting that's this Wednesday evening, correct? To
take a look at the facility to get an idea of exactly what services are to be provided. And of course
Councilman Ayotte is our liaison on that commission. Councilman, will you be attending that tour?
Councilman Ayotte: I'm out of town.
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen: Okay. I have it on my calendar. I will try to be in attendance to take a look on behalf of
the council. Unless anybody else wants to volunteer.
Councilman Labatt: I'll be out of town too.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. And then the Environmental Commission will be meeting and discussing needs
and issues. Okay. We did want to bring this issue to the public's attention in case they would like to
bring anything forward to the council or to the commission as far as any input that they'd like to have
into the services that the county will be providing at this facility. So appreciate your bringing this to us
this evening and we' 11 certainly maybe look to the Environmental Commission then for their advice going
back to the County if council's comfortable with that. Great. We'll wait to hear back. Thank you Jill.
CONSIDER ADOPTION OF 2002 BUDGET AND TAX LEVY AND CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT
PLAN.
Bruce DeJong: Mayor and Councilmembers. Thank you. We're reaching the end of kind of a long
process tonight. We' ve gone through preliminary levy setting back in September. Had some detailed
budget meetings looking at each one of the department budgets during the course of October'and
November. And now last week we had our Truth in Taxation hearing where it was an opportunity for the
public to conunent on the budget and the tax levy for next year. We received very few comments so it
pretty much remains an internal discussion regarding the amount of taxes to levy and the setting of the
budget for next year. What I'd like to do is go over some sheets that I had handed out to you, just for a
quick overview of where we stand. The first sheet is the stapled sheet with the 2002 revenue estimates
from December l0th. That's today. And as you can see on there, I have added a column for a 2001
estimated revenue. And gone through and looked at each line item in our revenue budget to see where it
is. Done some examination of what I think are likely to be revenues during the course of the month and
come up with an estimated total. That total is $7,158,000. When you look on the next sheet, which is
labeled 2001 budget expenditures, I have added a column to that also and looking at that and reviewing
that with the several department heads, it looks like we're going to be having expenditures someplace in
the neighborhood of $7,171,000 during the course of the year. So we'll actually have expenditures
exceed our budget by about $13,000. Now that's an estimate at this time. We still have bills to come in
and we have allocations that we need to do out of the general ledger for things like interest revenue and
some allocations in a couple other areas, such as fuel costs and stuff like that. But those numbers are
probably accurate to within $50,000 one way or the other. So what you're really seeing is that this year
the action of the council last December really did work. We have an approximately balanced revenue
and expenditure budget for this year. Now what I'm proposing for next year is.
Mayor Jansen: Bruce, maybe before you move on from there. I don't mean to interrupt but part of the
challenge that this council gave you at the beginning of the year, faced with what the budget vote was
from the year before, was to make cuts and eliminate, it was $250,000 in expenses, correct? To balance
the budget. So if anything I want to give you credit, staff credit for having been able to go back in and
make necessary adjustments so that we wouldn't be using our reserves. And I'm assuming part of this
also is some of the land, the city land sales also coming in that's increasing the revenues to cover some of
those expenses. So it was through some skillful work on staff's part and that windfall if anything of the
revenues coming in on the land sale that helped balance this.
Bruce DeJong: Well my efforts in this were pretty modest. I think a lot of the credit goes to the other
department heads in really trying to moderate their budgets as much as they can and a lot of the credit
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
goes to our city manager for being creative and really aggressively pursuing some of those land sale deals
that helped to clinch it.
Mayor Jansen: Very good, thank you.
Bruce DeJong: So that's a recap of where 2001 is. What I'd like to do it take you to the next sheet
which says 2002 budget expenditures, and that lists kind of a summary expenditure budget for each one
of the departments in our general fund. That's primarily where the tax levy goes to. What you see is a
grand total of expenditures for 2002, estimated at $8,118,474 and that ties out quite nicely with the 2002
revenue budget estimate of $8,118,500 so that we do have a balanced budget proposed for next year.
Mayor Jansen: And that represented a 6 ½% increase in total, correct? 6.4%.
Bruce DeJong: 6.4% increase in expenditures from 2001 to 2002.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. What that really leads to is the tax levy sheet that is in front of you
showing the 2002 recommended tax levy. For the general fund that's the $5,346,000, which is a decrease
of a little over $500,000 from the preliminary levy that we put together. We also have a decrease in that
levy of $171,000 for the two general obligation bond issues which you have chosen to call about a month
ago. What that brings us down to is a tax levy that's gone down by about $177,000 from the preliminary
tax levy that was proposed back in September and it is an increase of approximately 21.4% over the
previous year. We've already discussed some of the reasons for that, and I won't bore you with that
again. But I think that this is a very reasonable budget and I think that it has not promoted any new
programs. It has not gone above and beyond anything that's proposed before. This really is a hold the
line type budget in that it's just strictly expenditure increases that are due to inflation and benefit
increases. So with that I would recommend that the City Council approve the budget as presented
tonight.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff at this time on any of the information that
we've been given this evening?
Councilman Peterson: A couple quick ones. Bruce on the, what you just presented as far as moving
those bonds, paying them off, did you move all of them. We talked about last week moving all of them
or some of them, one of them at least off for another 2 years. Is that in or out of here? I'm trying to.
Bruce DeJong: That $220,000 is still included in the special assessment debt. That $1,134,000 figure.
That's there.
Councilman Peterson: So we still have the ability to bring that back in and lower the levy this year with
that amount.
Bruce DeJong: You still have the ability to reduce that by another $220,000. That is for the 91E bond
issue that you elected to call about a month ago, but our financial advisors recommended that we move
that to one of our other debt issues that has a very large capital payment coming due in 1994. So
reducing that levy amount in, or in 2004, excuse me, by the $220,000. That's certainly a legitimate
council decision and I don't have a great feeling one way or the other. I've talked at previous meetings
about my desire to try and level out many of those spikes in debt service as much as possible, but that's
your decision as a group.
City Council Meeting- December 10, 2001
Councilman Peterson: A couple more questions. When you built the revenue, and built the revenue into
the budget, were you able to use or did you guess what the incremental market value of Chanhassen
residents properties would go up? I mean did you use 5%? 10%? And then if you used a number from
the county or yourself, how does that translate into potential increase in taxes?
Bruce DeJong: When putting together the numbers, I really don't take into account the increase in
market value. Certainly we're going to see an increase in market value from 2 ways. Well 3 ways really.
The taxable market value will go up by the amount that each person's house or property increased in
value during the course of the year. For residential properties that' s really limited at this point by state
law to an 8 V2% increase. There will be a difference between what's called the true market value and the
limited market value on someone's property tax statement. But we also have growth in the community
through new buildings being constructed or additions to property, so that would come into play. And we
also have for next year two TIF districts that will be coming back onto the general tax rolls. So I did not
really include those things in factoring that. Mr. Ruff did when he put together an estimate on the
property taxes for homes at various levels. And like we talked about last week, those showed significant
decreases between 6 and 26% on a majority of homes in the city. So how all those factors interplay with
each other, I don't really have the numbers to tell you and I never do have the numbers until so late in the
process that it's really almost impossible to factor it in.
Councilman Peterson: Would that be the same for the tax capacity? I've brought it up I think last week
too. The tax capacity of the city of Chanhassen went up by 14.3% from 2000 and 2001, which has a
dramatic impact on revenue obviously. I mean, have we factored in or do we need to factor in 2001 to
2002 because that will also have a tremendous impact on our revenue line. I'm just trying to help build a
better picture at least for the community that our tax base is growing, by some people's standards positive
when their market value goes up, but you know taxes go up too but our tax base is increasing at a rapid
rate which gives a higher up side potential for not needing as much to tax the citizens.
Bruce DeJong: Well that' s, I think that gets to the point of confusion for a lot of taxpayers. Is that they
assume when their property value goes up, that we will automatically collect more in property taxes.
That really isn't the case. In most instances the only way that taxes go up on an individual property is
when the city levies more taxes on a gross basis. When the levy goes up is when we figure that the taxes
really increase. Because really we're not trying to manage the tax rate. There's 3 different parts.
There's the tax capacity. There's the tax rate and then there's the amount to be levied. And those factors
interplay. As I' ve mentioned before, if we had the same amount of property tax being levied from one
year to the next but all the properties in town went up by 100%, the taxes wouldn't go up by 100%. It's
just that the rate would fall in half so the same amount of taxes would still be levied, and so I want to try
and disabuse people of thinking that just because their value goes up, that their taxes will automatically
go up. That's not necessarily the case and I think as long as we moderate this growth in the general tax
levy for the City of Chanhassen, that we ought to be able to stay below the level of growth so that
people's taxes don't go up on a year to year basis as we go forward.
Councilman Peterson: Okay. A couple more questions. We've got two pending properties in the city of
Chanhassen, or pending sale. And one on West 79th and then the bowling alley property. I mean walk us
through if you would, what happens to those funds as they come into the process of the city.
Bruce DeJong: The West 79th property is in the downtown TIF district so that money would go to fund
460 and reduce the amount of deficit, and that estimated sale price has been shown in there as a potential
revenue really for the last couple of years. We have a proposed purchase of that property but it' s
contingent upon some leasing factors so I'm not sure if that will happen next year or not. But hopefully
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
it will so that money would not be available for general use. The sale of the bowling alley. There could
potentially be some but it's pretty minimal. We've already paid out an awful lot of money to actually
reclaim that parcel. And about $775,000 1 think to pay off the first mortgage on it and to pay off the back
taxes and I've forgotten what all the other expenditures are off the top of my head but they are significant
coming fairly close to a million dollars, aren't they Todd?
Todd Gerhardt: Well to satisfy the HRA's second mortgage on there of $140,000, some utilities
delinquencies that we had to absorb and some soft costs. And purchase price of that was a loan through
the city back to the EDA so there's some interesting carrying. We have this year's taxes carrying cost
and potentially until the sale prorated amount of taxes for 2002.
Councilman Peterson: Okay. Last technical question. And what I'm trying to paint here is, obviously
what we need to be concerned about to some degree is being able to pay off our TIF deficits down the
road if in the event that we do have them, and so as the potential sale of West 79th of $705,000 could fall
into that category of paying down debt on some of those TIF districts, as would the $1.1 million of
bowling alley cash, as would the $1.75 T~ grant that we just received, lowering down our potential risk
for covering in TEF. Then the last question is just, is talking about the general fund and we've got a
certain amount of cash there that is excess and that's in that $2 million plus range that we aren't required,
I think we're required to carry half of what the property tax levy is, is that right? Is that the.
Bruce DeJong: Yes. Your policy is established at carrying half of next year's tax levy on a proposed
basis. And the amount of state aids because those come to us, property taxes come in June and
December. State aid comes to us actually in July and December so we need to be able to cash flow our
operations for the first half of the year before we actually get the major sources of revenue coming in.
You re-calculated that on the sheet that I gave to you labeled available cash surplus versus potential
commitments. And I re-calculated to a date at about a million six. That's because our tax levy, because
of the changes in state law has gone up significantly from last year, and our state aid has also gone up.
Well, our state aid's gone down, excuse me. But we've taken some of that fund balance away or it will
be taken away because of the calling of those bond issues. That's going to be about $400,000 so we'll
have someplace around, I think it's $4.2 million. $4.3 million in general fund balance and we have well,
$5.3 million worth of tax levy for next year. Half of that would be about roughly $2,700. Subtract that
from the $4.3 million that would be available and the fund balance leaves you with the $1.6 that I've got
on the page here under potential available cash from the general fund.
Councilman Peterson: Yeah. Okay. Those are my detailed questions so far.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other questions for staff?
Councilman Ayotte: Just a, to make sure that I've heard you correctly and I think there's one point that
you made that I. Although the tax levy has gone up, we in fact, Chanhassen residents will have anywhere
between a 6 and a 21% property reduction.
Bruce DeJong: On their total property taxes.
Councilman Ayotte: On the total property.
Bruce DeJong: Correct.
City Council Meeting- December 10, 2001
Councilman Ayotte: And that we do in fact have a balanced budget with about a $13,000 delta either
side, correct? So we're about $13,000 off with respect to your estimate?
Bruce DeJong: That's for 2001. For 2002 I'm proposing a budget that's essentially balanced.
Councilman Ayotte: Balanced. And we are postured to deal with servicing the debt. Those are the
bottom line points, correct?
Bruce DeJong: Yes they are.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay. The reason why I wanted to state that for clarification for me and also the
other folks who might be listening because I think we're in pretty good shape. And a lot of times when
you say we have an increase in tax levy, people don't make the connection with respect to property tax
reduction and that's the point I want to stress. And it is between 6 and 21.5%, in that ballpark.
Bruce DeJong: Correct.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay. That's my.
Mayor Jansen: In fact the decrease range that you gave us, if this is still accurate from the other evening
was to 25.7%. Very specifically Councilman Ayotte you were correct that the 6% on $100,000 home. I
just found this very good information for all of us.
Councilman Ayotte: I was just slapping on $200,000 because that's.
Mayor Jansen: $200,000 was 22.1%. On a $250,000 home it's a 24.3% decrease and on a $300,000
home, a 25.7% decrease in property taxes.
Bruce DeJong: Now those were based off of the values in the Truth in Taxation notice and without
decertifying the TIF district~. So I believe that those may potentially be higher than, the decreases may
be greater than I' ve shown you.
Mayor Jansen: Oh, that would be good news. Okay.
Bruce DeJong: But I do remember Councilman Ayotte's question from a week ago, really wondering
what lowering the additional $220,000 would be on an individual property, and I' ve got those figures.
For $100,000 house that would be $15 reduction next year. Going up to the $300,000 house, a reduction
of about $46 so there is some difference that would be noticeable but that's council prerogative to try and
set that. I just want to provide accurate information for you to base your discussion.
Councilman Ayotte: Okay, thanks.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Any other questions?
Councilman Boyle: I didn't have any more questions. Excuse me Bob, are you done? Okay. That
haven't already been addressed. I want to say you and staff and everybody's come a long way since
September when we first got going on this. I compliment you.
Bruce DeJong: Thank you.
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen: Steve, any questions?
Councilman Labatt: I'll start out with first, the first time in 3 years we've had a balanced budget. Since
you and I, since we've been here so thank you Bruce and staff and Todd. But the second thing, I've been
whispering to Todd and passing notes back and forth here trying to decipher this police contract and I
don't know if now is the time to talk about it. To figure out what, how it all breaks down and how to
read it.
Mayor Jansen: If you think it's going to affect the total amount that's actually in the budget, then
obviously we'd need to walk through it. If you need a better understanding of the numbers maybe more
time spent with Mr. Gerhardt or.
Councilman Labatt: Well that's what Todd suggested is we maybe meet this week with the sheriff.
Councilman Ayotte: Talk a little louder Steve.
Councilman Labatt: Todd's suggested maybe we meet this week and talk with the sheriff. He and I and
the 3 of us just to get these questions answered and try and figure out exactly where the multipliers and
dividers come from and what's the basis for these numbers.
Todd Gerhardt: Just for the rest of the council, this, the formula in calculating base line services and the
contract was kind of, goes back for several years when, I think it goes into where Chaska submitted a
lawsuit against Carver County regarding what base line services are going to be. And as a part of that,
it's a very complicated formula and I think what Steve's asking, that he get the opportunity to sit down
and understand that and go through it with Bud. I'd also like the opportunity to do that so. If worst case,
that we do find some bugaboos in there that it would go down probably more than go up and so, and if
that is the case we'd bring it back for your attention and modification.
Mayor Jansen: So as far as action this evening we could move ahead with budget and levy approval, and
any modifications to that you're suggesting would be going down so there revision would not affect how
much we'd need to be levying for.
Todd Gerhardt: Right. I would still recommend that you levy for the dollar amount established in the
budget. However if we're successful in finding some minor changes in there, that it would just be a
surplus at the end of the year for next year.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. I remember going through the formula back when we were evaluating that as part
of the task force, and it is quite complicated as far as figuring out what exactly all it is so, certainly it
wouldn't hurt, and especially Mr. Gerhardt for yourself to be familiar with how that' s calculated for us.
Okay. Any other questions then tonight Steve?
Councilman Labatt: No.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Okay. If there aren't any more questions for staff, we can move onto comments.
If council has any specific comments that they would like to make before we go to vote.
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, if I could just add one item in here. As I was reviewing the council's salary
survey, one of the things that jumped to me today, and I tried getting a call into Roger but I think he was
10
City Council Meeting- December 10, 2001
on his way here, is for special meeting pay. With the City Council now serving as the EDA and going to
the different commission meetings, I would recommend that this council modify their ordinance and
taking into account special meeting pay for City Council members. And I would suggest that you use
$50 for each special meeting with a maximum of $150 per month so there could be no question of abuse
and I've attended 5, 6, or whatever type special meetings. But with the number of Southwest Metro, the
different Highway 212 meetings that we're having these days, the EDA meeting and meeting with the
bowling alley property, you're meeting almost bi-weekly and I don't think you should serve as a council
member and lose money on the deal. I think you should be compensated for those and would ask that
you direct the City Attorney to prepare a modification to the ordinance for pay compensation. This
would not affect the 2002 budget as I understand it. It would be for the following year, 2003 that we
would have to budget for that and I make that recommendation.
Mayor Jansen: So it doesn't take effect until 2003.
Todd Gerhardt: That's correct.
Roger Knutson: Mayor, just point out by state law you can't have a change in your salary until after the
next election. You have to adopt it now. The effective date is after the election.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Okay, so council comments also on that modification or we can certainly consider
it. Would you need approval this evening or is that something you're throwing out just as a
recommendation for us to?
Todd Gerhardt: We would have to draft an ordinance modification and bring that back. I guess I was
looking for direction. You can either comment on it or I'll just put it on your next agenda and you can
comment at that time. I just wanted to let you know that I think it's important that we make that
modification.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you.
Councilman Peterson: I had one more question for Bruce. What are you estimating, at one point in time
you were estimating 3% for 2003, as far as an increased levy. Is that still where you're at?
Bruce DeJong: Well I wasn't really estimating that. I was just using that as an example I guess. I have
not done any real budget projects for 2003. Just using that for illustrative purposes.
Councilman Peterson: But assuming you had no increase in the core budget, in the general fund area, all
your other ones would remain the same. 3% would be your approximation, is that reasonable to say?
Bruce DeJong: That's probably pretty reasonable. Someplace in the 3 to 4% range, yeah. Depending
on inflation. Depending on benefit costs and things like that.
Councilman Peterson: Okay, thank you.
Mayor Jansen: Depending on what other changes the legislature decides to throw at us. Okay. At the
beginning of this whole budget process back in July, council had directed staff to make any appropriate
budget cuts that you possibly could. Specific direction was that we not affect any of our current service
levels and that was primarily, though I think the entire council had that philosophy, direction to you
originally as we were looking at any revisions we needed to make to this year. Our community survey
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City Council Meeting- December 10, 2001
had come back and said that we had 58% of our residents who would oppose cutting services to decrease
taxes and so I think we all felt as if we were inbetween a rock and a hard place because also our highest
concern amongst our residents is our high taxes. So how do you reduce taxes and not affect the service
level? And given that challenge, all of staff and you gave credit to the other department heads. I'll give
credit to all of the department heads as well as yourself and our city manager for going back and rolling
up your shirt sleeves and seeing what you could do within your own individual budgets. And I know that
everyone rose to the challenge and brought forward what you could without cutting services, some
proposals on materials and some of the behind scenes points to get those cut. So I do want to give credit
to staff for having identified some of those costs and then also to yourself and I assume the city manager
for having looked at our debt levy and the philosophy that you've been promoting since we've started in
these budget discussions and Councilman Labatt mentioned, this is our first balanced budget in the 3
years that we've been doing the budgets. You've continually professed that we should have a balanced
budget, meaning our annual expenses covering our annual, covered by our annual revenues. To have you
look at that debt service levy and how dramatically it increased last year. It was increasing again this
year. You identified a couple of the bonds that we could defease saving our taxpayers what, the
$171,000 in the debt levy this year. $220 that you're now recommending as more prudent to do on a
future issue, but also you quoted to us a $250,000 savings in interest on those bonds, which again goes
right back to our taxpayers pocket so you double saved them in taxes within the levy this year, in the
future levy and then cutting down the amount of interest that they were paying. So I really give you great
credit and I admire the fact that you were able to really look at that and come up with a one time
expenditure. That was what you've said all along since you joined us here at the city. If we can use our
cash reserves for a one time expenditure so we're not having to keep anniversarying that same
expenditure and somehow cover it, that would be the prudent thing to do. And not only did you
accomplish that, but you started whittling away at what is our biggest problem and that is our debt. And
have taken those reserves and started to work on that situation, you've saved us additionally in interest
and I think you deserve a great deal of credit for having brought that message to us continually. Stuck to
your guns and applied it as well as you executed it this year to help us reduce thi:s levy, and give tax
decreases to the community in spite of the fact that we had a, what was it, a million 2 in HACA and state
aid that we ended up losing that we needed to make up. So you did have to do some creative moves to
benefit our tax payers and keep our services at the level that they are so I give you great, great
compliment for having accomplished that and helped with our long term situation. You've given us a
best case and a worst case and heaven knows, the numbers are far apart and we certainly don't have a
crystal ball to look at that so all we really can do is implement a strategy as conservative as we can, at
least initially until some of these worst case scenarios play themselves out and we as a council can be
more confident about the action that we do end up taking with this cash. Because though we keep saying
that we have this surplus, it is all basically on reserve to cover our deficit. It's not as though we're sitting
on this golden egg that isn't in fact earmarked for something. And now you've already used $400,000 of
cash that we have to save us money additionally as well as trying to take care of some of that problem.
So I just have to give staff great credit for what they brought forward to this council this year as far as
this budget and how you worked on it. And how much it improved since we passed the preliminary levy:
We always end up passing those saying, okay. This is the worst case scenario and just hoping that we
can reflect some changes by the time we hit December and this certainly is an improvement. So thank
you for addressing that. Any other comments for staff? Otherwise I will call for a vote.
Councilman Peterson: I've got a few comments before the vote. I think that philosophically Bruce and I
have over the last year and a half went around and around on, and what I said actually last year is, is our
glass half empty or is our glass half full and I'm a proponent of it's half full, and .[ think Bruce would
agree with that and you can speak up if you don't. We are a city that I think is not in financial desperate
stakes. We are a city with a lot of cash, as our bond raters have noted numerous times. And this year in
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
particular our legislators have said that they wanted the lower tax rates across our communities and I
think now, today we're afforded an opportunity to give Chanhassen those lower rates and Bruce has said,
they are going to be lower, even with this 21% increase, but the legislators were expecting more than
that. And that's really what I've been struggling with is how to get them, our residents lower tax rates.
The residents in the survey have said that they want lower taxes and they have found it prudent to ask us
to find ways to do that. The TIF issues that we've talked about are issues in 2004. They're not issues
that are going to happen in the next year or 2 or 3 years and they're issues that if we use surplus funds
that we clearly have today, we can deal with the 2004 issue in 2004. Or 2003 we can refinance. That
certainly is certainly a opportunity that we can do. And you know I mentioned before that our tax
capacity is increasing at an increasing rate. That's a great thing. An absolutely wonderful thing that I
think we have to factor in that I think staff has done a good job of looking at alternatives but I think
they're conservative that I think our capacity is growing and revenues will be increased. The issue about
the 91E bond, you know I think there's an opportunity that we can move that bond up and not go out in
forward years and save another $220,000. But it comes back to available cash and potential
commitments and Bruce's estimate tonight, you know worst case is, $2.9 million in negative cash or $3.5
million potential surplus. And again that's years down the road and I'm offering to my fellow
councilmen tonight that we have an opportunity to wait and see. We can use the excess cash that we
have today to give the city more time to see if we actually need to tax the citizens to meet that capacity in
2004 and beyond. And we' ye got more cash coming in with the potential sale of the 79th Street property
and the property in the bowling alley. So we've got a lot of positive things happening and it doesn't
preclude that the legislators won't help us with those TIF issues as they did this year down the road. I
think that one of the comments that Bruce made a few weeks ago, maybe a month ago about not wanting
spikes in revenue and taxes and I guess at a minimum I think fellow counselors should look at if, at least
look at saving, moving the tax impact from all in 2002 to 2002-2003. So that our citizens aren't hit with
the 21% tax increase in one year, even though it's being decreased. Remember our legislators wanted
that number to be higher. And we're taking that away so I think as we continue talking and as we vote
tonight, I think those are important things to keep in the back of our minds is that we have cash. We're
not short on cash. We're not going to be short on cash for potentially years and we can move that risk
out. Make that decision when we have to. We don't have to do it now. Those are my comments.
Mayor Jansen: And though I certainly believe that all of council would like to be able to present a better
picture to our taxpayers, we have all received from the financial advisors a studied recommendation of
the best plan and the best action that this council can take in order to protect the future of Chanhassen. If
we don't deal with the problem right now and we do what's in our best interest as elected officials to
make ourselves look better, and we take all that cash and throw it at lowering the levy, we walk away
from our responsibility to this community for the long term and we leave our finance director with quite a
situation to have to deal with in 2004. I can't be that short sighted. I have to be a partner with staff. I
certainly am responsible to the community but I think the community relies on us to make the best
advised decision that we can. We're not financial experts. Though we know bottom line what we would
like to do for the community, we have to do it in the best interest of the long term for Chanhassen. So I
look at the action that Bruce has put before us and recommended as far as being able to decrease some of
this deficit, at the same time benefiting our taxpayers, we're at least taking a more conservative action.
Yes, there is cash that's there. It is earmarked for a reason and their recommendation has been to not use
the excess cash but to keep that on hand so that they can have their options open to them as things occur.
If you throw away your emergency reserves, you certainly can't react to some of these situations that
have the potential of arising. We would leave another council in the position of figuring out how to make
that work and I would rather take the measured approach that is being presented to us and take those
conservative steps and give staff time to come up with some of these alternatives, like defeasing some of
the bonds. We talk about refinancing, and I look at this $250,000 that we're saving our community in
13
City Council Meeting- December 10, 2001
interest, and there's a whole debate that could occur around what the philosophy should be there. The
benefits are in the community currently and the Tff~ district and the funding was used for the downtown
improvements that are in place now. And there is that philosophy that if the people who are using those
improvements should be paying for those improvements and unfortunately some of these things just
haven't been addressed well and we've been affected by the legislator and I'm certainly not throwing
stones but it certainly makes it interesting as a city finance director to try to figure out how you do some
of the forecasts, like this budget. A big chunk of what we're having to make up in our levy amount,
though the legislators wanted to pass along a higher decrease to the taxpayers at the same time they took
away our state aid. And we then have to levy for that so there's a lot to that formula that the taxpayers at
least through this action are still getting as high a decrease as we can manage and it sounds like that may
even increase as Bruce continues to see the numbers come through on the actual properties. So though I
realize your philosophy and what you would like to do and certainly make a big impact to our taxpayers,
I would tend to go the more conservative route that' s being recommended by staff and by our finance
advisors. Other council comments.
Councilman Ayotte: Well I certainly know what 2 of the votes are going to be. Before I go onto that,
two sides of it. One of the things that Craig has done is provided some intellectual stimulus to look down
the road. I'm not in agreement with Craig's position for the here and now but I think what Craig has
presented is a catalyst for, not only a catalyst for thought but to keep on digging on looking down the
road in 2003. We're voting for a very specific period of performance and I think some of the dialogue
that's occurred should remain in the cranium and should be references for discussion as we go along
because it is dynamic. It is not static. And one thing that I think that I've been schooled in is the fact that.
as we go forward alterations can occur in thinking and in philosophy, but at this point in the game I'm on
the conservative side but I want folks to realize that it is a continuum and that the next step might be
changed based on outside influences. Once the $2 billion issue is resolved at the state level and a few
other things, it's going to be other forums for discussion so it's not a yes, no tonight. It is a benchmark
tonight. It's a balanced budget tonight and for opportunities down the road. So what I'm saying to you is
although I don't agree with you totally at this point, I think some of the points that you've brought up are
important to keep in mind and as a reference as we go down the road. Okay. And I want to say that
publicly. And now you know where my vote's going to go.
Mayor Jansen: Okay.
Councilman Boyle: Are you all done Bob?
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah.
Councilman Boyle: Craig, you made some very good points. Some very good points and I agree with
what Bob said about looking down the road a little further. I'm going to take the more conservative
approach of holding onto our emergency fund. I think it's very important at this particular point in time.
Nobody wants any worst than I do to reduce that levy and save more money for the taxpayers this year
but I don't want to do something that would cause maybe a bigger problem a year from now or 2 years
from now. I believe in holding onto the funds. When you look at why the levy increased, we've got a
library referendum that's coming into effect. We've got a park and rec referendum. These are things that
taxpayers asked for that they want. We also know that the state giveth and the state taketh. And they
took back another million dollars so somewhere in there we have to make that up and still not make it a
humongous burden on the taxpayers so once again I think staff did a tremendous job under some very
difficult challenges.
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen: Steve, anything to add?
Councilman Labatt: Just short. I was conservative last fall and the fall before that and I'll be
conservative this year too. I believe in having the life vest... I took us on the cruise one year, remember
that? We packed this whole life vest in life boats so Bruce is doing it again this year so appreciate Craig
and his wisdom but I believe in conservatism so let's move on.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. With that if I could have a motion for the 2002 budget adoption.
Councilman Boyle: I'll make the motion that the 2002 budget be approved as presented.
Mayor Jansen: And a second?
Councilman Labatt: Second.
Resolution ~2001-87: Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to adopt the 2002
budget and tax levy as presented. All voted in favor, except Councilman Peterson who opposed,
and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1.
Mayor Jansen: And the vote passes 4 to 1. Moving onto part (b) of our discussion, the capital
improvement program adoption. Staff report please.
Bruce DeJong: Mayor and council members. We've gone through another long process with the capital
improvement program and this is really forecasted expenditures for major capital outlays we recorded for
the next 5 years. So this includes expenditures for next year and also some estimates from 2003 up
through 2006. At the last council meeting you made a couple of modifications to this. The first is
moving the fire department, the underwater or dive team boat back 1 year to determine really the
necessity of having another vehicle, another watercraft for them. And the other thing that really
happened was we changed the park and trail item number 28. That was duplicate of the Bandimere to
Chanhassen Hills for $200,000 and changed that into the City Center Commons landscaping because that
just came up recently so, and we moved that from 2003 up until 2002. With those modifications you
have in front of you and approximately $36 million worth of expenditures over the course of the next 5
years, but they seem to be fairly straight forward. There wasn't a lot of contention amongst the council
members regarding any of these projects and I would recommend approval as presented.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff council? No questions. Any comments?
Otherwise I'll call for a motion.
Councilman Ayotte: Did we resolve the issue, never mind.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. I'll never mind. Can I have a motion please?
Councilman Labatt: I will move that we approve the capital plan as recommended by Director DeJong.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Do I have a second?
Councilman Boyle: Second.
15
City Council Meeting- December 10, 2001
Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to adopt the 2002-2006 Capital
Improvement Program as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 5 to
0.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. And thanks again to staff. That was a long process and appreciate all of the
number crunching that you did on our behalf and answering our questions and those of the public so
appreciate it.
DISCUSSION OF LIBRARY INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR DESIGN.
Public Present:
Name Address
David Happe
Conrad & Lois Fiskness
Linda Landsman
Julianne Ortman
Melissa Brechon
Kathy Perschmann
604 Summerfield Drive
8033 Cheyenne Avenue
7329 Frontier Trail
8698 Chanhassen Hills Drive North
8634 Wood Cliff Circle
Councilman Ayotte: I'm a little concerned about this presentation. They brought bricks in with them. 4
or 5 bricks.
Mayor Jansen' They haven't resorted to throwing their bricks yet.
Pat Mackey: After your long discussion, this is kind of a pivotal point in what you do every year. If you
want to go and take a break.
Mayor Jansen: Do you need time to set up?
Pat Mackey: We're going to set up...
Mayor Jansen: Appreciate that. We'll take a 5 minute break. Thank you.
The City Council took a short break at this point in the meeting.
Mayor Jansen: We'll go ahead and resume the meeting. Thank you. We have two representatives here
from MS&R. Pat Mackey and Leanne Larson. Appreciate your coming tonight.
Pat Mackey: Appreciate you having us. A little background here. Where we are at this point of the
library and design. The last time we talked, we talked about or the last several times we've talked, we've
talked about the exterior. First of all was placement on the site of the library and then a preliminary
interior layout of the library. Thus far council has signed off on the siting and certain aspects of the
interior layout. I'd just like to bring you up to speed very briefly on where we sit in the process and in
the plan. We're in the middle of construction documents right now. We've got 7 or 8 weeks until we
want to bid this. At this point we are fairly...to make sure that the water stays out and the building stays
warm. At the same time really the final effort is on to nail the interior details and make sure everything
goes together as we had intended. With that we'll jump to the plan here. This is a, although nothing
16
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
major has changed from the kind of the elements of the library plan since the last time you've seen it. I'll
walk through very quickly here. You can see the entrance of the library is on the north near the parking
drop off that sits to the southwest of City Hall which is roughly right here. As you come in, now there's
a lobby, a lounge and a couple of associated spaces. Vending display area in the front and corridor to the
meeting rooms over here. The toilet rooms flank both sides of that hallway at which point there' s a
security gate that can be deployed across this opening allowing use of the meeting rooms, toilet rooms
and this lounge while the library is closed. When the library is open, this gate is open and there's a
circulation desk here. It won't be this curved shape but again we're kind of thinking of things faster than
we can draw them on the plan so there will be a couple instances where I show you something and it's
not really, I' 11 try to point it out. An immediate peel off to the children's area right here which prevents
kind of the traffic of excited children through all corners of the library. They' 11 be able to peel off pretty
quickly into this area. There' s a story area for the children here and then access to the meeting room for
when they' ve got large group presentations. On the center here there's the reference desk which is kind
of the our intended destination for most people as they enter the library. Up to this side there is the
internet, the audio visual and some of the new books features off to this side. A lot more of a retail kind
of environment. We say retail rather than something like a large stack just because this is where the
popular materials are. It's lower fixtures. It's a more open and kind of browsing space. Off to this end
of a main cross bind, which then defines this portion of the building. Off to this end there's a 20 person
conference room and on this end is the teen room which is set off of the teen and young adult area right
here. A little bit of a microcosm of the library collection at large. It' s got teen periodicals, teen fiction,
teen non-fiction in their own area with a little bit of a different feel. A little bit of a different d6cor off to
themselves. Beyond the reference desk is the reference area. Fairly self explanatory. All sorts of
reference materials and electronic resources. The non-fiction area over here with plenty of reading and
study tables throughout here. Three little break out areas, actually two that we're calling porches which
are seating and more casual reflecting areas. Over here's the fiction area with the higher fiction stacks.
Some more reading study and then back here the periodicals area which is, well the status, the popular
periodicals and newspapers. Back issues of periodicals. Some reading areas. Double faced fireplace and
some seating lounge space up here with good daylight coming in from the southwest. Is there anything
on the plan that anybody has any questions about?
Mayor Jansen: Councilmen?
Councilman Ayotte: I do have a generic question, not with respect to the specifics of the plan and I
should have called Todd about this earlier today but I didn't and it was something that occurred with the
discussion I had about a Hennepin County building. Hennepin County building downtown Minneapolis
where they've had to do some things since 9-11. And the Hennepin County building is a very poorly
designed building with respect to the concerns that have been raised since 9-11. It's a wonderful building
so on and so forth but for security purposes it has some significant drawbacks. Is there, is it out of the
realm of possibility to have a look see with respect to...developed for our building? Should that be a
concern? Am I being over concerned? Before we go too much down the line. What would it take to
have a 9-11 reference point?
Mayor Jansen: I guess I would suggest that maybe some of the specific questions be shared with Mr.
Gerhardt so that.
Councilman Ayotte: I don't have specific questions. I'm asking with respect to whether or not it makes
sense to even.
17
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Pat Mackey: It does and actually we have, through the code review or plan review with the City of
Chanhassen. The 9-11 events were obviously unique in that, from anybody's but one in that the very
buildings themselves were used as really weapons and elements of destruction. What has been addressed
here, where it really wouldn't, the specific point that was addressed here was ensuring that, in the case of
a fire, or an intentional aggressive action, somebody were to close this gate and trap a portion of the
people inside, you know primarily a crime reference more than anything else and we've altered the plans
or we're in the process of altering the plans to provide more ways of egress, even concern when this gate
is closed. Normally we would consider that this gate would be open at all times that egress would be
necessary because if there's a fire at midnight, yes it's a tragic thing but nobody's going to be in here.
There's a lot of books and a lot of property damage but the life saving issue that's. We're open to
hearing any concerns because.
Councilman Ayotte: I'm not an expert. I'm just raising the issue as to whether or not it should be, not
here tonight but referenced as a point to be considered for discussion.
Pat Mackey: Certainly. Well the learning curve on everybody is...
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, who the heck knows.
Pat Mackey: ...so it's a relevant question.
Councilman Ayotte: Alright. I'll give you a call.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Anything else? Alright, thank you.
Pat Mackey: That walks us through the plan. Maybe we could march, walk briefly through the volumes
and while right now this looks a little bit like a pancake, you may remember on the model, which we
don't have, although we do have building elevations with us, is that the bulk of the building is, well it's
entirely a one story building but there are higher volumes, higher masonry volumes at the meeting room
and a clear story vaulted ceiling at the entry area here. Obviously this tall central spine with a vaulted
ceiling up around 22 to 24 feet, and the periodicals area which is also a tall open space. Just to give you
a sense of what the up's and down's of the space are. The ceiling in this area is more or less 10 feet high,
which is about the height of the ceiling in this room. The ceiling on the other side, the south side of the
spine is more or less about 13 feet 6 inches high with some vaulted coves. So we're talking about a fairly
tall space with, punctuated by even taller spaces. I think at this point with reference to this plan, Leanne
should start walking you through the interior finishes. I guess before that happens is the point that we're
looking to reach tonight is not a final sign-off on all these colors and materials. On all these colors
because there are, you know an endless variety of colors and endless choice of one op's and tweaks.
What we're looking at is approval of the materials and the selected material types such as carpet, wood
species, even wood. Counter top material. Where there's paint. Where there's not paint. Where there's
fabric. So that we can continue on with our detailing and our cost estimates. After this point certainly
colors of paint may change. Colors of all kinds of materials, tile and tack board and fabric can change,
but at this point of the sign off we're looking for is on materials. That being said, these are our
recommendations having done this a few times and also having worked with the building committee on
the library stuff.
Mayor Jansen: And that's the key to what Pat just said as I'm watching the panicked expressions on a
couple council faces. Your committee has, the building committee has reviewed the materials so what
was presented has already been reviewed by the building committee and what you're seeing is what is
18
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
being forwarded, mainly to see you know if we're completely off as far as what, how you foresee it
furnished as far as carpet or not. And that's why Pat just went through the fact that we're just looking for
more the big scope approval from you and then otherwise, the types of materials. And then there will be,
we' ve got one public hearing also scheduled so that the public can also see the selection as far as some of
these generals. It' s not set in stone from here but in order to bid it out, some of the larger parts of the
project like carpet are included. Wood species would be included in that bidding process so obviously
you know paint color can change. Those sorts of things can change and it's just the direction on material
that we' re.
Pat Mackey: What we're not showing tonight also is furnishing. Furniture because that's a separate
contract and that requires quite a bit more work. That would be coordinated following the lead of the
selection of these materials.
Councilman Peterson: I guess I'm somewhat confused. I would have presumed that we would have
formally approved the building architecture 100%. Went through Planning Commission before we
started picking interior selections, and maybe I'm missing something but that would have seen the logical
way to proceed.
Councilman Ayotte: How about the design standard too? Do we do the design standard in with that too?
Mayor Jansen: The Planning Commission has had the review of the exterior of the building. I'm not
sure what exactly, because it went to Planning Commission for review then to ourselves for review on the
exterior. The site plan came through. Then the exterior came through. You've done 2 presentations to
Planning Commission, haven't you?
Pat Mackey: Yes. One as a sign-off and one as more of where we are today.
Mayor Jansen: Okay.
Councilman Peterson: My assumption was we hadn't approved the formal building plan yet. Maybe I'm
wrong, or maybe I was out that meeting but. I could be wrong. Have we formally approved the building
plan?
Mayor Jansen: Were you not here that meeting? I don't remember. When Pat brought in the, you
brought in the model at that point correct?
Pat Mackey: Right, with the exterior materials. The brick, copper and windows.
Councilman Labatt: You must have been down with the kangaroos in Australia.
Councilman Peterson: That could have been.
Mayor Jansen: I don't recall.
Councilman Peterson: Could have been. I just, I guess I haven't, in my mind I'm not past the building
yet so.
Pat Mackey: They're being brought up more or less at the same point and there are certain
characteristics of the materials that are going to lend themselves regardless of the configuration of the
19
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
building to certain areas. You're going to want harder materials in your entries. Quieter, softer carpet
and stuff and so forth in your stack areas.
Mayor Jansen: Todd, could you just make sure that Councilman Peterson gets a copy of the color
renditions that we had had of the exterior. I think those were brought up to date with all of the
improvements. The exterior, yeah. Okay. And if you could do one of the color photos like you did with
the interior materials, that could be very helpful. Did you receive those over e-mail? Okay.
Pat Mackey: We've got those here referenced tonight.
Mayor Jansen: For the exterior, okay.
Councilman Labatt: Craig, do you have this?
Councilman Peterson: No.
Todd Gerhardt: That's the interior.
Mayor Jansen: That was in the packet for tonight, wasn't it?
Councilman Peterson: Oh this packet, yeah.
Todd Gerhardt: Not the exterior.
Mayor Jansen: This is in the interior. Okay, we'll See if we can get one of these for the exterior then.
Todd Gerhardt: We didn't put one of those together for the exterior. It was just samples that were...
Mayor Jansen: Planning's looked at it.
Pat Mackey: Looked at material and in conjunction with the model. Material and siting.
Councilman Peterson: Have you discussed the, going back to the interior. What the plan is, you know
we're not going to fill the library up the first year. How do we transition the library from being half full
to full in 5 years or whatever the percentage actually is? Has that discussion, I don't want to reiterate the
discussion but I think that has to some extent impact on how you decorate it too.
Pat Mackey: To some extent. Yeah, it affects the furnishings. A couple ways to do that is, generally the
short answer is that is to spread the collections, spread a smaller collection out over a larger area say in
any given 7 foot tall shelf you've got 6 shelves. Until you have the collection that will fill all those, you
don't shelf the bottom or the top. You put fewer books on shelves. You buy all the shelves. Keep them
in storage knowing that you'll need them and that you need to buy them as a system at one point, but
you'll also provide more talk right off the bat, more seating and more study tables. Then as your
collection grows and gets more dense, you first fill all those shelves and then second you can either
increase the density of the shelves which is less common now or just push tables out of the way. Take
tables and chairs out of circulation to accommodate more shelves. It is a common problem with building
library collections. How to not appear empty on opening day or the first year.
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City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen: So why don't you go ahead with the interior material review and council, just don't
panic. Unless there's something that really just stands out as something that you don't feel you're
comfortable with, thank you.
Leanne Larson: Okay. I set up the table to correspond with the handout that you have so you can kind of
look in both places. However the color rendition, we have those handouts as you can see are not 100%
accurate. It's best to use the actual samples. I think I'm going to just talk about the flooring materials
first and then we'll work our way up to the walls from there. The major portion of the library will be
carpet. I'm recommending that you go with carpet tile, for a couple of reasons. One is flexibility. The
other one being it' s durability and ease of maintenance. The portion of the building that I'm
recommending to be carpet would be from the security gates inward. The children's area. All the public
space here. The meeting room. And possibly the work room, although I've got another option for that as
well. It's linoleum so we can talk about those two issues as well. Going back to the carpet tile, there's 4
samples laid out on the floor here that give you a better sense of what it is. I don't know if anyone is
familiar with carpet tile. They come with a vinyl backing to it and so you simply glue this down with a
green...adhesive material directly to the concrete floor. And what that does is say you spilt something on
it and you clean it and just can't get it off. Although...but if for some reason, you know maybe
something happens and it rips or something and you have to replace the tile. All you have to do is,
there's this thing where you can, it's kind of like a suction cup thing. You put it on the carpet and the
just go, and it lifts it off. You just take this up, throw it away. Put down the new carpet tile and it will
look like new.
Councilman Ayotte: Do you have to keep those on, do you have to keep x number on hand for repair?
For replacement.
Leanne Larson: Usually what we do in a base bid of the carpet is, we tap out a certain percentage and
then just keep that in the storage room so that way the dye lots are the same carpet and they'll match.
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah. And the selection that you've made is there, for life cycle concerns and
interest, you know you buy ~his lot this year. In 5 years, have you taken that into consideration so that
the lot doesn't go away in year 3 and then.
Leanne Larson: Right. The issue with carpet in general, any manufacturer that you go with, the
possibility that they' 11 discontinue a color is always there. The great thing now...what the original carpet
was and it should not be a problem to go back and manufacture the carpet to match what we have.
Pat Mackey: With the 10% tile excess pretty well covers that. I mean this kind of product is tested for
durability and a wear that you're not going to need to replace it...unless somebody comes in and takes a
torch to it.
Leanne Larson: Right. A couple things about the carpet is, the backing itself is made out of 100%...
material. It's a vinyl composite so that means that if you do spill something on here, coffee or something,
it won't soak through to the backing which is important for a couple reasons. Say like a typical broad
loom carpet which is what this is, if you spill something on this it will soak direction into the backing of
that product and even though you clean the carpet and it looks like you've gotten all the stains out, you
can come back in a couple of days and the stain will reappear.., and that happens because the backing
soaks up the stain and it' s virtually impossible to get it off of the back. So what this does is, it will never
penetrate this backing so you'll never have that problem. The other great thing about this carpet is,
the...which is what all these colors are, is 100% solution dyed nylon so that means that the color is put
21
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
into the fiber during the manufacturing process so while it's a liquid rather than like a stain of yarn that's
dipped into something to get your color...so you can clean this stuff with bleach and it won't take the
color out.
Pat Mackey: So that was one of the, as far as durability and the weave, the color fastness of it and the
easy ability to replace it if something does go wrong. Another aspect is that, as Leanne has shown,
depending on which way you orient the grain of it, you can create fields in different patterns showing
where, you to highlight different areas. Traffic patterns here. Fields and the pathways as well as you can
take another supplementary color or complimentary color. You can mix it right into the system and
create patterns that way. There's just a great flexibility here versus a one sheet of two acres of carpet
where you're going to get a lot more obvious...
Leanne Larson: Right. One of the big issues with carpet installation for a typical woven product or a
broad loom is getting the seams to match, especially when you do a pattern. And with this product we
can make a pattern and the seams or where the carpet tiles come together, laying it down...
Pat Mackey: Unless you choose to. Unless you make it...So while we're not saying this is the final
carpet color, we are, everything has to start with a major portion here and the carpet is kind of a
foundation upon which a lot of the other materials are selected. So while paint colors can really change,
and the carpet colors can change, one thing that is fairly integral here is not only the carpet system but
some of the colors in the carpet. Some of the ideas that we're recommending and that have been well
received by the building committee.
Leanne Larson: The next flooring item that I will show to you is terrazzo flooring, which I'm sure you're
familiar with. It's used a lot in schools. Commercial buildings where there's high traffic. And I'm
proposing this for the vestibule area of the lobby into this lounge space and then it would stop at the
meeting room doors. We're also suggesting that we run it into the bathrooms as well. Terrazzo is a
mixture of ground up aggregate and marble chips and then they pour it on site, it's an epoxy material.
Resin and then they grind it all down and then polish it. So basically with terrazzo our colors frankly are
limitless. Our patterns are limitless. You can, we were talking about putting the Chanhassen maple leaf
symbol either in a pattern in the carpeting, which would be easy to cut at the factory and then installers
would just put it together kind of like a puzzle piece, or we could pour it separately in another terrazzo
color to compliment this in a central lobby or maybe in this lounge area. Again, terrazzo's extremely
durable. It basically doesn't wear out. It's more durable than a concrete which can crack. We control it
with joints... Questions about that?
Councilman Labatt: So you're able to select your own colors in that?
Leanne Larson: Yep we can. You can pick out what you want the background color to be and they can
tint it to virtually limitless possibilities.
Councilman Labatt: So if we wanted to make our maple leaf like in a fall color rather than...
Leanne Larson: No, I think this would be like more of a field color and then we can go in with other
colors of terrazzo and.
Mayor Jansen: And they can do it solid.
22
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Leanne Larson: And you can even specify how big you want the aggregate chunks to be. If you want it
to be bigger than this, we can say that or if we want it to be really tiny.
Councilman Labatt: Well I think that'd be neat but just as long as you get the color of leaf is...
Leanne Larson: Other flooring material that I was alluding to earlier is linoleum and linoleum is also a
natural product material. It's made out of linseed oil and cork. Ground up cork and ground up wood and
there's two other things I'm forgetting. Oh yeah, it's got a jute backing. There's also limestone colors.
And it's extremely resilient. It's very quiet. It hardens over time so it actually extends it's life long. It's
life span is extended as time goes on. Easy to maintain...dust mop it daily with a dry mop and then
weekly with wet mop it.
Pat Mackey: Just part of a, no real special building maintenance for any of these.
Councilman Labatt: Does that come in a tile piece like that or is it?
Leanne Larson: Oh, I'm sorry. This comes in roll goods. They're usually 12 foot rolls and then your
distance is limitless.
Mayor Jansen: And that would be in the work areas, correct?
Leanne Larson: Yeah.
Councilman Labatt: That will be all in the staff area, not the public area?
Leanne Larson: Right. Staff areas. And again you can get many different colors. You can do patterns.
You just heat weld the seams. Moving on then.
Pat Mackey: Just moving on in order of prominence or level...material. Obviously there's going to be
quite a great deal of carpet. Even smaller, although a' greatdeal of terrazzo as well. Your next, besides
the paint colors, the next greatest impact the material's going to have is going to be the wood species
because this is going to affect the finish carpentry. Certainly the library shelving and millwork and
equipment. So there's going to be a lot of this if you don't like it.
Leanne Larson: So what we're recommending is going with a clear finish cherry. Plain...very soft. It's
not like an oak that has, that oak door where you see the really strong zebra stripes, yeah. And cherry, a
couple characteristics about it is it darkens over time. So when you first open up the library everything
will look lighter and then as the sunlight hits it, cherry ages. It will darken. It's not going to get that dark
but it will turn a little more, a little deeper.
Councilman Labatt: Is that a laminated cherry then or is that solid cherry?
Leanne Larson: This one I have right now is just a laminate veneer. It's actual wood. It's just not solid.
It's not a hardwood piece but we would do it so the, all the millwork faces would be a veneer and all the
edges that get a lot of abuse would be a hardwood piece.
Councilman Labatt: Okay.
23
City Council Meeting -December 10, 2001
Leanne Larson: Then paired with the cherry on all the service desks, the reference desks and the
circulation desks, we're recommending you go with a granite countertop. A black color. This one is, it
has a finish on it called a diamond A finish which is unique to this company. It's a special processing
finishing process that they perfected... Anyway, the great thing about this finish is, it's not polished, this
piece. So it doesn't reflect as much light. It's not as hard on the eyes. And it doesn't show fingerprints
like this will. So that's why...
Pat Mackey: It's just a good, nice matte. Gentle looking. It's all, you know still as hard. Still as durable
but for some reason the shininess of this kind of stone is a little off putting to some people. It just seems
harder and colder than something like this. Now to all of these, or to many of these finish choices we've
got alternatives here. We've brought them along to kind of show you, if you have questions. What were
some of the ones that were not chosen. We can get to some of those but.
Mayor Jansen: Why don't we stay with the selections.
Leanne Larson: So the wood would be all the millwork, all the end panels, we'll try to match all the
furniture to be cherry as well. All the trim for the baseboards and public areas would be wood. Public,
let's see. The staff area's baseboards would just be a mild base. Basic color.
Pat Mackey: This for reference is the, representative of the exterior brick. Obviously it's more than just
one color. There' s a little bit of a mix like the wall behind you, but some of the brick is also brought
inside as well along this major circulation spine down this way. So again, part of the, a lot of the
materials have been chosen for their coordination with the exterior building materials which were already
chosen.
Leanne Larson: Just another way to tie it all together. Another material that, if I can hand out, what we
have here is just a plastic laminate. What your countertop is there. This would be for back of the house.
Staff counters, as well as some of the public rooms. Maybe the study rooms. Those would be plastic
laminate. They would have a wood edge so again keeping in mind that durability issue where you're
going to rub your...All of the hardware will be antique bronze. So that's like the door handles. The
window trims are also this dark bronze color.
Mayor Jansen: Is that the highlight of all of the major materials then? As far as what you need to have
designated that council is okay with your materials.
Leanne Larson: Yeah, why don't we talk about a couple of the ceiling issues.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Okay.
Leanne Larson: There's a few areas...some of the areas are jib board. Painted jib. Other areas is the
acoustical ceiling tile.
Pat Mackey: Just a white, a lot like the courtyard conference room upstairs. There's a ceiling tile up
there that's, it's similar. It's a little more textured than we'd be using but it's the 2 by 2 lay-in ceiling
tile. Acoustic ceiling tile.
Leanne Larson: And then a few areas have fabric wrapped acoustic ceiling tiles. So it's just something
like this. It's a.
24
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Pat Mackey: Well it's kind of a burlap finish. It just knocks the sound down a lot better in areas like
children areas where you're just want to tame the sound a little bit better. It also offers a little bit more
design flexibility. There are more colors available and you're able to do patterns and kind of achieve
some nice effects with this. There are also longer panels that aren't in the 2 by 2, and this is obviously
just a sample. There are other products that are available in more linear patterns. So you can make a
really nice kind of featured ceilings, say in the lounge area or some of the areas...and like I said, it
knocks down sound because with the terrazzo floor, or a hard surface floor area, you're going to want
something to really knock down the reverberation. If you have a hard ceiling and a hard floor, you're
going to get a very acoustically active space that is, for a lot of people uncomfortable.
Leanne Larson: The only other ceiling finish that I should mention is, we're proposing to do another
ceiling wrapped panel in this main spine area, and this is the fabric that we're thinking about. This is a
tapestry that kind of echoes what's going on in the floor so they'd be hung at what, 22?
Pat Mackey: It's an arch so it's low end is about, slightly under 22, 21 feet. It's high end is up around
24. I'm probably getting those numbers wrong but you get the idea that we're quite a ways up there.
And it' s another way to get a good feature and some good color reflections off the ceiling. Another bit
about this is that this is up in the ceiling and it's lit from below and it's immediately inside the clear story
windows. The high windows that are running all along this spine so it's a good way to get colored light
spilling out of those windows visible for quite a distance away. So it's one of the approaches that we're
taking to that, the high windows throughout here is looking at just how this is going to appear at night.
Or at 4:00 in December. How we can really start to animate some of the outward appearances of the
building other than just with the exterior materials.
Leanne Larson: And the one other material I will mention that's shown on your drawing is this, is a
mecho.shade. All the windows will be, you know it's a roller shade so you can pull it down. The great
thing about this is, if you hold it up to the light you can see through but it still blocks out the light. And
having a neutral color like this, it will kind of just blend in with the walls. The higher windows we'll put
it on a mechanical switch and just keep the switch down...
Pat Mackey: The nice thing about this stuff is, as Leanne said, you can pretty much look it up, if not
directly at, comfortable in the direction of a sunset through this stuff. I've done it. It's kind of amazing. I
mean you can, it's a little bit of a veil. The other thing is, the alternative to this is mini blinds or blinds or
some sort which tend to collect dust and tend to, once they get jarred or out of alignment, they don't look
so good. When these aren't in use they just roll up into the window head and go away. So we've had
great success with them in a lot of libraries. In rooms that otherwise would be unusable during certain
portions of the year when the sun is just really cruising along the horizon. There are certainly, you know
we've all been in rooms where it's just uncomfortable to be sitting in that much glare. I think that covers
the families of things that we're talking about. We have a ceramic tile in the bathroom walls. Solid
surface at bathroom counters. Things that we're looking at because we've seen other products, other
finishes put in there and we've seen them start to come apart after a couple of years so we're trying to
keep in mind, not only the appearance of these things, also the maintenance and certainly the durability
here because there's going to be quite a few people using and abusing the new space over the next
several decades.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you very much. So council, any questions at this point for the consultants on
any of the materials?
25
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Councilman Peterson: I guess comments more than anything else. I think that generally I like the color
selection. My only concern is really cost. I mean from what I look at and my knowledge of building
materials, you're in the upper cortile at least, if not higher on cost versus other alternatives and that
generates some angst as to, are we going to lose functionality because we're putting so much in the
finish? You've got some very expensive stuff there. Very expensive stuff.
Pat Mackey: It is. Some of it is. One thing that has to be factored in though is the nature of the public
building, and something like an internet counter or certainly a circulation desk is, if Melissa's projections
are correct, and we have every reason to believe them, that somewhere in the neighborhood of a million
books will be pushed across this surface in a year. And if not, if she's way off, then half a million.
That's quite a lot to ask of a material. We're, I think everybody can appreciate the value of doing it once
and having the top last a long lifetime rather than replacing it 3 or 4 times. You're right. To answer
more directly to your point. That's factored in when we're talking about a $6 million library. We know
through the numbers of, this is the kind of class of library we're looking at with our costs per square foot
figures, these, this family of materials is figured in. We could go a lot, a lot more expensive. We could
go a lot cheaper but we found this to be, well the family that, or the range of materials that just kind of
works. It hangs in there. Another thing is we're trying to keep it to something that's not going to get
obviously as dated. You don't want to be replacing something before you have to just because everybody
comes in and says wow, that's really ugly.
Mayor Jansen: I think the one bid alternative that you mentioned was potentially on the wood species?
Leanne Larson: I've got another sample here and this is oak, like the door but instead of plain...like with
that door you see the grain, this is ridge cut. So you'll always get this straight row of grain. And then
they stained it to be a natural cherry color. So this would be a deduct alternate when it goes out tO bid.
So if this comes in too high, then we'll see what the price was on this and we might have to go that route.
And I think with this too, you ~know it's still, it works in the whole scheme of things.
Mayor Jansen: I think you explained that there could be a swing in the price of species depending on the
time that this was.
Pat Mackey: ...cherry from day to day cherry will cost this much or that much. But maybe more to the
point, there's only a certain number of materials that are going to perform to the satisfaction and say
across the range of granite versus a solid surface which is another material we look at quite often. In this
case, first of all they're running right now about neck and neck to install and there's quite a bit of
quantity in bulk. In the areas where we're, we've got great quantities, carpet, we're pretty convinced that
carpet tile is the way to go. There's nothing wrong to go with roll carpet but just for the design aesthetic
and kind of the durability, carpet tile's not going down or drastically, well I don't know. Is it about neck
and neck?
Leanne Larson: It's comparable with a woven carpet which is typically, if we don't go with carpet tiles,
what we reconwnend for libraries, just because you know it has to last for 15-20 years so, and we know
that and.
Pat Mackey: We're within the, at the last estimate, which is always revising, we're within where we
wanted to be. We're within the budget. It's just that the nature and the kind of abuse and wear and tear
that these buildings get, even if the public weren't in here running a book cart across the carpet is a
terrible thing to do if you want it to last so we have to kind of go with this...bullet proof carpet. Right
now we're still on, we're confident that, we're always wary of it and we're always a little fearful that
26
City Council Meeting- December 10, 2001
forces outside our control are going to take over but we're confident still to this point. It is expensive but
it was within our numbers.
Councilman Peterson: Just remember, just because you've got a balance in your checking account
doesn't mean you have to spend it.
Pat Mackey: Just because you have checks doesn't mean. The bulk of the materials, I mean
overwhelmingly is drywall. It's a steel structure. Fairly straight forward structure. The drywall, you
know it's paint. Paint, you can get a range in paint but we're looking at, you know if we were hanging
wall tapestries on every wall, etc, there'd be a good reason for concern but we're kind of hitting the, a
little bit out of balance here because most of what you're going to see is carpet and paint. Just as far as...
Mayor Jansen: You might show your images at this point. That might be the best visual impact.
Pat Mackey: Thank you. What these are, and I said something early on about to take these with a little
bit of a grain of salt because the colors represented here are electronically modeled facsimiles of what
you've just seen first hand. What this is is more, intended as more of a key of what this space and how
the material and colors would be arranged. If you can zoom tighter on this. What this is, is a view down
the large central spine towards the teen area. So this direction is north. We're looking west out onto, I'm
sorry, we're looking.
Mayor Jansen: East.
Pat Mackey: What looks like an endless sky but what we would be looking at right now is the building
and the bank beyond. We're looking in that direction. You can see the carpet here again, the color didn't
come off exactly faithful to what we're looking at. Some of the brick. Higher vaulted space with some
darker accent paint and you can just see some of these ceiling panels peaking out from beyond
these...beams. Here's another view of the space. What we're looking at here is roughly the area of the
central circulation or reference desk looking back towards almost the same direction. Slightly more to
the north. Just again a feel for the space. The type of light fixtures that we're starting to look at indirect,
bold, pendant fixtures and what some of these colors and the tones are what we're trying to flush this out.
Again, there was an image circulated to the building committee and depending on what printer we print
on, it's just very hard to get a accurate depiction or even a consistent depiction so that's why we bring the
real materials so we're treating this only as a reference.
Mayor Jansen: ...throughout, though they're beautiful.
Pat Mackey: And the paint may change. You know we don't want to fluctuate wildly but we're still
recommending a pallet and we're trying to get to a warmer, more. If you're putting up 20 to 30,000
square feet of paint in a color you don't like, again it, make sure you like it. So we're working with the
building committee. Library staff... We get the benefit of seeing hits and misses with a lot more
frequency than, there will probably be only one major library built in Chanhassen in the next year or two
so we're trying to take advantage of all the resources available to us to look at other people's work and
see what's working and what's not.
Mayor Jansen: Great, thank you. So as far as the list of materials and the major materials, is council
comfortable with the proposal that's been, as it's been brought forward? As far as going out to bid on
carpet, wood species and so forth.
27
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Councilman Boyle: You know Linda, I'm not an expert at this. I kind of wonder, we have experts here
making a recommendation. We've got a building committee that's recommended. I think as long as it
fits in the budget I'm a happy camper.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Any other comments? We are scheduled to have a public review, show and tell of
the interior materials on December 20th. We did want to be sure that as we are approaching that, that
council's in the loop and comfortable with where we are so appreciate your having sat through the
building material review. And I should have mentioned before we got started, this almost feels like a
library building committee meeting. And maybe for the council's benefit I should point out our building
committee members. Linda Landsman is the Carver County, or sorry. Chanhassen representative on the
Carver County Library Board. Melissa Brechon I think everyone knows. Our Library Director. Dave
Happe is our citizen at large representative on the committee. And then Lois Fiskness is the
representative from the Friends of the Library on the committee so I mentioned to council earlier as we
were having a conversation around the landscaping, how dedicated all of you have been because this has
turned into multiple meetings and reviews of materials and I think all of you have also participated in the
public hearings. At least come to hear first hand any of the comments that have been shared so we
certainly appreciate your dedication to the project and again I think you've all been here also for the
council meetings each time we've reviewed this for appreciate your time. Thank you. Thanks.
APPOINTMENTS:
Mayor Jansen: If council doesn't mind, shall we flip flop A and B and have a conversation around the
water treatment project advisory committee since we have staff here?
Councilman Ayotte: Yep.
Mayor Jansen: Okay. Why don't we start there. Staff report please.
WATER TREATMENT PROJECT ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
Teresa Burgess: Thank you Madam Mayor and Council. This evening we are asking that the council
name the members of the water treatment project advisory committee. We have, in your packet you
should have applications from 9 committee applicants. We are recommending this evening that 3 to 4 of
those applicants be named to assist staff in selection of the consultant with the entire 9 being named to
the project advisory committee for the overview of the project and assisting in that direction. However,
because we will need to meet several times on a relatively quick basis, we'd like to only have 3 or 4
named for selection of a consultant. And if there are any questions I'd be happy to answer those.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Any questions for staff at this time? Council? Okay. Okay, then if we
could have a recommendation then for the appointment of the 3 to 4 members to the committee. That or
you can put it in the recommendation. Put it in the form of a motion.
Councilman Boyle: I would move that Angela Bober is it? Larry Anderson and John or Jack Thorson be
appointed to the water treatment project advisory committee. These members will interview the
consultant firm, reconnnend a firm for consideration by the City Council, advise the consultant firm and
act as liaison to the Chanhassen neighborhoods. In addition, Mark Anderson, Glen Gerads, Nan Nelson,
Dale Dawson, Colleen Weber, Tim Savaloja, are also named to serve on the project advisory committee
to advise the consultant firm and act as liaison to Chanhassen neighborhoods. Did I get all the names?
28
City Council Meeting -December 10, 2001
Councilman Ayotte: I think you missed Thorson.
Councilman Boyle: Thorson was on the committee. Advisory committee.
Mayor Jansen: I didn't check them off as you said them. So the appointment to the PAC of the 9
members will be Mark Anderson, Glen Gerads, Nan Nelson, Angela Bober, Dale Dawson, Colleen
Weber, Tim Savaloja, we've probably now all massacred it. Larry Anderson, and Jack Thorson. Just so
we know we've gotten everyone named.
Councilman Boyle: Yeah, they're all there.
Mayor Jansen: Okay, great. If I could have a second to the motion please.
Councilman Ayotte: Second.
Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to appoint Mark Anderson, Glen Gerads,
Nan Nelson, Angela Bober, Dale Dawson, Colleen Weber, Tim Savaloja, Larry Anderson and Jack
Thorson to the Water Treatment Project Advisory Committee. Angela Bober, Larry Anderson
and Jack Thorson are also appointed to serve on the committee to assist in selecting a consultant.
Ail voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 5 to 0.
Mayor Jansen: And we certainly appreciate all of those residents stepping up and Offering to serve on
this committee. We certainly appreciate their involvement and dedication to doing that for us. Thank
you Teresa.
Teresa Burgess: Thank you.
COUNCIL APPOINTMENT TO THE SOUTHWEST METRO TRANSIT BOARD.
Mayor Jansen: Then going back to item 6(a). The council appointment to the Southwest Metro Transit
Board. We covered this a little bit in the last meeting. I think Councilman Labatt was absent and we
managed to resist appointing you. The conversation involves the appointment of one member to the
Southwest Metro Transit Commission, which is a joint powers agreement that we serve in with the cities
of Eden Prairie and Chaska. And this is my position that I've now held for the last 2 years. It's typically
a 3 year term. I' ve been on for 2 years, but at this point if there is someone else. The City of Chanhassen
has handled it differently in the past. I'll clarify since you're wondering about my 2 terms and this being
a 3 term office. In the past the Chanhassen representative has turned over annually and the commission
has always recommended that there be at least a 2 year term, if not a 3 year term so that there's at least
some continuity and that you don't constantly have the learning curve to catch up on with issues on the
commission. So we did extend it. This council extended my term for another year so I did serve 2 years
and now it's typically up for reappointment at this time. So whatever this council would like to do. I've
served for 2 and if someone else would like to now serve on the commission, I'm certainly willing to step
down and have someone else have the experience.
Councilman Ayotte: I'm going to be, I think this water treatment activity is going to be pretty intense. I
don't see my ability to do that and the Environmental Commission and this. I just.
29
City Council Meeting- December 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen: Certainly understood. And we didn't discuss that this evening but you have also been
appointed to the same commission that we just named the residents to and we appreciate your stepping
up and serving in that capacity.
Councilman Labatt: What nights does this meet?
Mayor Jansen: It's the third Thursday of every month.
Councilman Ayotte: In the evening?
Mayor Jansen: Yes. At 6:00.
Councilman Boyle: Where?
Mayor Jansen: At the transit hub in Eden Prairie. There are also two committees that are also
represented by the commission members. You only need to belong to one. One is the development
committee. The other is the budget committee. It's just a smaller subset that does the review before it
comes to the commission. But those are not frequent meetings.
Councilman Boyle: Steve, I'm not throwing my name in the hat so it's all your's.
Councihnan Labatt: Craig?
Councilman Peterson: I just worry about my travel plans. I travel an average of about 3 times a month.
That's usually on a Wednesday, Thursday timeframe so that's my only concern. I don't want to say yes.
I'd be interested in it but I'm afraid I'd miss a third of the meetings so.
Mayor Jansen: This is the type of a cormnitment that I think is significant enough to Chanhassen because
of the fact that it is a joint powers agreement. There are financial decisions involved. There's
development that's occurring at the hub. We do need to be well represented at the meetings in order to
be able to ensure that Chanhassen's interests are being best represented. I complimented Mr. Gerhardt
earlier today in that Julie Hoium, am I pronouncing that correctly? Is the staff liaison to the commission
and she has been very consistent in being present and before her it was Cindy Kirchman. No.
Todd Gerhardt: Kirchoff.
Mayor Jansen: Kirchoff. And I would say Chanhassen staff was the most diligent in attending the
meetings. And the best informed as far as what was going on with this commission. So if my time
commitment needs to be to hold that position and make sure that we will monthly have a representative
there, I would certainly step up for another year. I can't go beyond that, but I would just inform the
commission that I would be taking it on for another year. Not a 3 year term. But I'll throw that out as an
option. This is one that I have been very consistent in attending and I do participate on the, I'm on the
budget committee currently. And then I have served as the commission's representative to the STA,
which is the Transit Authority' s. So you've got Burnsville. You've got Maplewood and all of the other
opt out, but that's been by choice. So that again we're just in the loop with some of the other opt our's
and I can then be aware of what's going on with the other opt out's to best direct Southwest Metro. So it
can be a larger time commitment if you choose to make it that.
Councilman Labatt: So it meets on the third Thursday, and what time do they start?
3O
City Council Meeting- December 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen: At 6:00.
Councilman Labatt: How long do they typically run?
Mayor Jansen: They can go til 9:00-9:30. I don't think we've ever gone later than that.
Councilman Peterson: The committee is the same night too?
Mayor Jansen: Typically they try to schedule those prior to the meeting. Otherwise we've held quite a
few morning meetings due to other people's work schedules. And then there's a citizen representative,
rider representative, Randy Herman who has served on the commission for gosh, I want to say yeah, quite
a while so at least we have that consistency too. And he's just been an excellent representative of the
community. He's very financially conservative and has given good direction to the commission and to
staff.
Councilman Peterson: Well Steve if you don't want to do it, I'll do it. How's that?
Councilman Labatt: Well I was thinking about doing it. What I was thinking about doing is asking you
if I've got a conflict, if you'd be willing to.
Councilman Peterson: Easy. I mean that's not ideal for the group but I think we potentially.
Councilman Labatt: Well it's better than having nobody there.
Councilman Peterson: Exactly. I'm very open to that. Absolutely.
Councilman Labatt: So, why don't we do that. I can do it.
Mayor Jansen: Somebody quick make a motion. Can I have a motion please.
Councilman Ayotte: So moved.
Councilman Boyle: Second.
Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to appoint Steve Labatt to the Southwest
Metro Transit Commission. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 5 to 0,
Mayor Jansen: And if there's ever anything that I can be of help with, just yell. Okay.
COUNCIL/COMMISSION LIAISON UPDATE.
Mayor Jansen: Any reports from commission liaisons.
Councilman Boyle: I' 11 be meeting with the Senior Commission next week from Friday.
Mayor Jansen: Great. Okay. Very good.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS.
31
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Mayor Jansen: Anything under Administrative presentations?
Todd Gerhardt: Just that we continue our discussion on the selection of a landscape architect.
Mayor Jansen: Thank you. So if we can maybe finalize now our discussion that we began in the work
session on the selection of a landscape architect for the library project. As to how council would like to
proceed with that. We've now at least had a touch base and a glimpse of what this project could entail
and council at work session has suggested that we approach the library building committee to see if it's
members, who have been so dedicated in their service, would step up and also then provide some
guidance and assistance on the landscape piece for the commons park that will be right next door so we
will be approaching the building committee members to see about doing that and adding some additional
representatives. We talked about adding a commissioner from the Park and Rec Commission. Craig
Peterson would like to serve as an additional council representative on the committee and oh, we'll be
approaching the Chamber of Commerce to appoint a representative on behalf of the businesses. Did I get
all those? I think those were the 3. I said Parks and Rec. Okay. So at this point where we left that
discussion was deciding how to proceed with the selection of a landscape architect. Whether we should
go ahead and work with the landscape architect who's working with the building architect on the
landscaping right around the library, or if we should be going out with an RFP as far as selection of
another architect. Anything you'd like to add?
Todd Gerhardt: No. The fees are going to fall in pretty much at the same level. We did the same thing
when we selected architects. It was pretty much at that same rate. I think the architects were around the
9% area and there was no wiggle room there but if you wanted to designate a fiat rate fee, you could do
that. But sometimes you wonder what you're going to get for that too.
Councilman Ayotte: Is there any risk with the current architect that's working with the library architect?
Mayor Jansen: You know one of the pluses I guess that's standing out to me has been his dedication to
coming to the public hearings. It certainly wasn't something that was a requirement, but in his mind to
truly have a feel for what the whole breadth of the project might be, though he was focused on what was
happening right around the library, he attended those public hearings to at least get a sense of what his
part of the project would need to look like.
Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, I guess that's my point. We've got so much ground that's been gained
already, A.. B. Your point that we want to have a concept in place by ground breaking of the library,
and if there isn't much risk to it and if there isn't anything inappropriate with respect to not sending out
an RFP, why not?
Councilman Boyle: I'd like to make a motion that we accept Damon Farber and Associates.
Councilman Peterson: One more question. How did he go about, excuse me. How did he go about
bidding the percentage if we're going to do it in phases and we end up with a million dollars in landscape
architecture over 5 years, is he going to put a percentage on a million dollars?
Todd Gerhardt: Why don't you allow me, I mean if Damon is the one you want, how about between
Roger and I we work out a contract system with him that works into the phases. That you do maybe a fiat
rate on the design portion and then percentage based on the different phases. Have you done that before
Roger?
32
City Council Meeting - December 10, 2001
Roger Knutson: Yes.
Mayor Jansen: So why don't we go ahead with a motion to recommend that, you know directing staff to
do that.
Councilman Peterson: Didn't you just do that?
Councilman Boyle: Well I'm going to.
Mayor Jansen: So at least we're on the record approving.
Councilman Boyle: Right. I make a motion that we approach Damon Farber and Associates for a
contract for landscaping beyond the library. How's that sound?
Mayor Jansen: Appropriate? Okay. Do I have a second?
Councilman Ayotte: Second.
Councilman Boyle moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to appoint Damon Farber and Associates
as the landscape architects for the City Center Commons area and direct staff to prepare a
contract for City Council approval. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 5 to 0.
CORRESPONDENCE DISCUSSION. None.
Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to adjourn the City Council meeting. All
voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:45 p.m.
Submitted by Todd Gerhardt
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
33
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
DECEMBER 11, 2001
Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 6:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Rod Franks, Jack Spizale, Jay Karlovich, and Mike Howe
MEMBERS ABSENT: David Moes and Tom Kelly
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Superintendent; Susan Marek, Recreation Center Coordinator; Kara Wickenhauser, Senior Center
Coordinator; and Dale Gregory, Park Superintendent
APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
Hoffman: Can I add two items? A letter to your administrative packets, and then the commission needs
to make an appointment to the City Center Commons Design Committee. And you can probably do that
during your committee reports.
Lash: City Center what?
Hoffman: City Center Commons. The space left over after the library is built. That's the name that's
being used currently. '
Lash: Okay. Do we have the letter that you want to add or not?
Hoffman: Yep, got them. Should I hand them out?
Lash: Sure.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Hoffman: Mike and Dave weren't there and then they had all sorts of quotes so we're going to get that
all straighten around. Nann is working on it as we speak.
Lash: Mike and David were not there that night?
Hoffman: No.
Karlovich: We still hear them when they're not there to vote.
Lash: You guys are going to have to start adopting a little more distinctive voices for Nann.
Hoffman: Jerry's got us on TV tonight. Are we live? No?
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
Lash: Good. Okay, so other than redoing them all and identifying the right things.
Hoffman: I haven't heard anything else.
Lash: Anybody here see anything else that we need to change? Okay. So I guess we'll need a motion
that would be contingent on filtering out all the voices and getting them identified. Can somebody do
that?
Franks: I move that we approve the Minutes as to be amended.
Lash: Okay, is there a second to that?
Spizale: I'll second it.
Franks moved, Spizale seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission
meeting dated November 27, 2001 amended to reflect that David Moes and Mike Howe were
absent. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
PRESENTATION OF FEASIBILITY REPORT, HIGHWAY 101 TRAIL PROJECT NORTH OF
HIGHWAY 5, HTPO, INC.
Hoffman: Thanks Chair Lash, members of the commission. I'm pleased to have with us Lori Johnson
and Joe Rutherford from HTPO. They' ve prepared a feasibility study on behalf of the City Council for
the stand alone trail project, or what is referred to as a low impact trail project. And the reason the
council is taking this approach is they would like to continue moving both projects forward. As the trail
by itself, and then also the road project in combination with the trail. The meetings continue on the road
project in combination with the trail. MnDot would like to get rid of this road in the worst way possible
but some things need to be done to that road before turnbacks are accepted. So there's still negotiations
in that area ongoingl In the event that the road does not, the road project does not become a reality,
which has been a problem for what, almost 10 years now probably, so there's some skepticism out there.-
Then the council had the ability to move forward on the stand alone trail project and we'll have these
plans, or at least this feasibility study ready to go and can move forward with the trail project and let the
road argument continue from there. So with that I'd like Lori to go ahead and give you an update and run
through the feasibility study.
Lori Johnson: Chairman and members of the commission. As Mr. Hoffman mentioned, I'm Lori
Johnson with HTPO. We're consulting engineers for the City of Chanhassen and we have prepared a
feasibility study for constructing a Iow impact trail along the west side of Highway 101. The northern
limits being Pleasant View Drive and the southern limit, West 78th Street. And at West 78th Street this
will provide a pedestrian link to, there's an existing concrete sidewalk that ends there in front of the
tennis courts. And as Mr. Hoffman also mentioned, this feasibility study was prepared for a stand alone
trail project and it is independent of any road improvements on Highway 101. The trail is proposed to be
8 feet in width and the alignment has been designed to provide as minimal impact as possible to those
adjacent residents and to the environment. In addition to that, the alignment has considered drainage and
safety issues which are MnDot's two primary concerns for this project. Where possible, we will be
placing the trail a minimum of 10 feet off the existing roadway as is shown in the bottom cross section.
And then we will have a drainage ditch between the trail and the existing roadway. In areas where we
have difficult terrain or where we have limited right-of-way, the trail will need to be moved closer
towards the existing roadway as is shown in that top cross section. And for safety reasons we will then
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
need some kind of physical delineator between that trail and the existing roadway. Now this could be a
guardrail or a curve or some vertical elevation difference between the trail and the road for safety
reasons. Retaining walls, railings and fences are all going to be required on this project in some of these
difficult terrain areas. A bituminous surface is recommended for the trail for the entire length for two
reasons. The first one being, it would pro,~ide a smooth surface to provide ADA accessibility. The
second reason to minimize maintenance costs hopefully in the future versus a gravel surface. I guess an
exception to the bituminous surface would be the two areas of wetland that extend out from Lotus Lake.
In final design we would ask that a boardwalk be considered in these areas as an option to try to
minimize impacts to those wetlands. The City has applied for a matching funds grant from the DNR and
in order to qualify for this, the trail design has to meet ADA standards. In addition to the standards, we
feel that consideration should also be given to placing a few benches along the alignment for rest areas,
and we have included 3 benches in the project cost of the feasibility study. The majority of the trail will
be on MnDot's right-of-way, thus necessitating the limited use permit from MnDot so we will need to
work very closely with MnDot to get this approved. We will also need easements from private properties
along the alignment. The majority of them would just be temporary construction easements, but there
will be a few permanent easements will also need to be obtained. And the City will be responsible for
maintenance of this trail even though it is on MnDot' s right-of-way. The total estimated cost for the
project is $1,275,000. We are expecting the funds to come from the DNR matching funds grant in an
amount of $500,000 and the rest of the monies to come from the City' s park and trails fund. I have
brought more detailed plans with if you are interested, and I would also be happy to take any questions.
Lash: Okay. Anybody have any questions for Lori?
Spizale: Lori, does the trail ends at a sidewalk on the north side?
Lori Johnson: On the north side there's nothing to tie into.
Spizale: There's nothing so at Pleasant View the trail would stop?
there's nothing? There's no sidewalk. At that point it just ends.
On the north side of the trail so
Lori Johnson: No. The nearest, there is a trail on the east/west section of 62 that's in Minnetonka. But
there's nothing along 101 further north.
Spizale: Okay.
Hoffman: We would want to incorporate two connections. One to the north and one back to the west on
Pleasant View. And there's a trail what, 3 blocks to the west on Pleasant View and then we would also
want to make that connection around the comer of 62.
Howe: Lori when you talk about EDA, I'm sorry I was a little bit late. Other than the surface being
bituminous, there are I imagine grades that have to be incorporated. A minimum grades. What are some
of the things that ADA would require of a trail like this?
Lori Johnson: The major thing is a maximum of a 5% grade on a trail.
Howe: Okay. Thank you.
Karlovich: On page A3 of the, this study, it shows kind of different right-of-way lengths from the center
line and it appears as though Sunset View Addition is an older one and then Kurver Point 2nd Addition I
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
know is an earlier plat. From the center line, how wide is the right-of-way along Sunset View Addition
and then how wide is it along Kurver Point 2nd Addition? From the center line. Is it 33 ½ feet on one
and then like 50 feet on the other or what were they getting on the plat dedication?
Lori Johnson: Yeah, I believe the right-of-way varies from 33 to 50. This particular stretch, I'd have to
get my scale out and check because I don't remember.
Lash: What's your question? I mean the point of wanting to know what that is.
Karlovich: Well I would think if you're getting 100 foot right-of-way, you're anticipating that it's going
to go to probably 4 lanes at some point. A lane is like 12 feet.
Lash: So you're talking down the road expansion so to speak?
Karlovich: Down the road.
Franks: The boardwalk. Two sections of boardwalk. I was looking in the back at the price breakdown
and I didn't necessarily see the per foot cost of the boardwalk construction.
Lori Johnson: We had put an estimated, I think it was under the options of I believe an additional
$35,000 to construct boardwalk versus the bituminous surface.
Franks: And additional what? I'm sorry.
Lori Johnson: $35,000.
Franks: So right now the plan is to go the bituminous surface through those wetland areas?
Lori Johnson: Yes.
Franks: For the $1.2 million.
Lori Johnson: Yes. And for the ADA accessibility I thinl~ the bituminous would be better.
Franks: Better?
Lori Johnson: Yes. The wetland impacts need to be looked at a little bit closer.
Lash: I had just a couple of quick questions. I think probably they're more for Todd, is that okay Lori?
Lori Johnson: That's great.
Lash: Wasn't there supposed to be some funding coming, I thought that Tom Workman was working on
funding.
Hoffman: That's the $500,000.
Lash: Oh, that's the $500,000. Okay. I was thinking maybe that was something separate. And then I
guess my biggest thing when I read this through, that julnped out at rne is that MnDot has denied this
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
permit at this point, right? So it says MnDot denied this permit and the documents sent to the City
Engineer on November 20, 2000.
Hoffman: Okay.
Lash: So what is it that we're working on to try to make the plan be something that MnDot is going to
approve?
Hoffman: Lori might be better at that.
Lori Johnson: We received a long memo from MnDot with very detailed drainage and safety concerns.
To get to that level of detail we would need really to go to the construction document phase to answer
their questions. I guess it's our opinion that we were at the concept stage when they were reviewing it
more from a detailed construction plan phase so we feel as we move into these next phases, if we work
with them, we can hopefully resolve their issues.
Lash: So you're confident it can be resolved? I mean at some point, we can't go forward without their
approval, right?
Hoffman: Correct.
Lash: So.
Franks: My concern was a little similar too, about looking at the physical delineation barriers, guardrails,
that kind of thing. I know in the past'that' s been a little bit of an issue with getting approval for barriers
and I know in our last round of trails it was pretty difficult to get approval for guardrails and such. Now I
don't know if you've had conversations with MnDot during this lengthy letter that they're actually
suggesting these things.
Lori Johnson: Yes, that was their suggestion.
Hoffman: You may recall in the 1996 referendum when we completed those projects in '98, we sought
and received limited use permits for both Highway 101 soUth and Highway-7 from the State of
Minnesota. The Department of Transportation. And they have certain requirements that they want you
to meet and in this case, I'm not sure if they were overly stringent or not. Obviously they want to build
this, upgrade this road as well so I'm not going to read into it at all.
Karlovich: On the last page, November, 2002 it says assessment hearing if Chapter 429. Who's going to
be assessed for what?
Lori Johnson: The way this report is presented right now, the only possible assessments would be if
individual homeowners want additional landscape screening to screen their properties from the trail, that
they would have to pay for that screening.
Karlovich: In the cost estimate, is there anything for the right-of-way that has to be bought or
condemned?
Lori Johnson: There is an estimated easement cost in the total project cost. On page 6 of the main text
of the report.
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
Karlovich: And how was that arrived at? How many parcels is that or how much property or?
Lori Johnson: I believe it was based on a square footage and some dollar figures that the engineering
department gave us based on a recent project of their's. If my memory serves me right, there are over 30
parcels that would need temporary easement acquisition and 4 parcels that would require permanent.
Lash: So that's a best guess?
Lori Johnson: Yes.
Lash: Did you get what you need Jay?
Karlovich: Yeah.
Lash: I'm going to go to the time line or the schedule on the back page. And the only thing again that,
and maybe this is normal and typical. It just seems out of order that in January we'd be seeing public
hearing where they, no. The council authorizes easements and negotiations and condemnations and then
we're not looking really for approval from MnDot until March. So we would move ahead with possible
condemnations and negotiating terms of acquiring easements before we even have approval from
MnDot?
Lori Johnson: This schedule was put together to assure completion of the construction in 2002. If we do
not start working on the easements before it goes to MnDot, I do not know if that would be possible.
Lash: But you can't move it, you can't move the MnDot time line up?
Lori Johnson: MnDot will want to see final construction plans and we need a couple months from
authorization to get those prepared.
Lash: Okay, so that's a normal, that's a normal sequence? That's the way it usually goes?
Hoffman: Not much is normal about 101 north so.
Lash: To me that seems like it's kind of putting the cart before the horse because.
Hoffman: Yeah I think if you go back to what Lori said earlier about the MnDot proposal, they want to
see such detailed plans prior to their approvals that you have to prepare plans in order to send them over
to MnDot for approval. And if we start down this project, rest assured that there's going to be some
conversations over with MnDot that it's not going to be derail once we order plans and specs and start on
down the road so. It seems a little backwards but it's the way it has to be.
Karlovich: What is the current status of what is going to happen, or possibly happen with the roadway?
Will it always be 2 lanes? Will it be 3 lanes? Will it be 4 lanes?
Hoffman: I'm not able to co~Tunent on that.
Lash: Crystal ball.
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
Franks: As part of the plan there's that 150 foot section that's 3 feet in width. That's the plan that
you're costing out at $1.275 million, correct? The concept plan has the 150 foot, 3 foot section?
Lori Johnson: That is what was proposed in the concept plan that was prepared a year ago. MnDot did
not look like would approve that. So no, these project costs reflect widening that.
Franks: Widening it, okay.
Lori Johnson: Yeah.
Howe: That was in the part, just on the curve right there? Just on Hill Street, is that where that? There's
a ravine that goes in, the 3 foot section. Just outside of town.
Lori Johnson: No, this is further north.
Howe: Is it further north?
Franks: But the cost includes widening that?
Lori Johnson: Yes.
Lash: So Todd, if Larry was still here, and we're talking about boardwalks, he's get all bristly about that.
So has there been changes in boardwalks in the past few years that make them more, what were some of
the concerns? They weren't durable and the maintenance and all those kind of concerns.
Hoffman: The more money you spend, the better boardwalk you get so.
Lash: But are they worth the money that we would invest if we wanted to go the boardwalk route?
Hoffman: I think it's being looked at as an alternative. It could be some future conversations in that
area. I don't have an opinion at this time either way if it's better to go. It's much simpler to go with
asphalt. But depending on how far it goes out into the wetland and what the experience is like,
aesthetically they're very nice. It's a long route. If they put a trail next to a road, a couple of little
relief's out into the wetland might be actually welcomed.
Lash: Okay. Anybody else have anything?
Karlovich: Todd in your memo it says $850,000 would have to come from the park and trail fund and
then supposedly we'd get another half million dollar grant. Then it says in the event that it is constructed
as part of a road project, the park and trail fund amount would decrease due to transfer and cost sharing
but would we still get the half million or how would that work or, if you're going to do a comparison
there? Would we still get that half million and we'd have some other type of reduction in the $850,000?
Hoffman: One of the difficulties in the half a million is that it has to occur in 3 years. Construction has
to occur within 3 years and so if it goes onto a road project, that may not be the case. That construction
time line may not be met. The half a million goes away but state aid turnback dollars come in to replace
that and then it lowers down those state aid dollars would lower down the cost of the park and trail fund
from about $850 down to about a quarter million from what I know today. So state aid turnback dollars
would make up the difference there. Because the trail is eligible under those.
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
Karlovich: And how much do we have in the park and trail fund?
Hoffman: Approximately a million 8.
Lash: So we'd still have a million dollars left?
Hoffman: Yes. Plus or minus.
Howe: Have we ever spent anything like that on anything else before? This by far would be the biggest
one shot out of our fund.
Hoffman: By far.
Karlovich: And we're going to be spending an extra $600,000 to have it done now as opposed to at a
later date?
Howe: It's a what if.
Hoffman: Yeah.
Lash: You mean the later date thing is kind of the catch. The later date could be next year, the year
after. It could be 20 years. Nobody knows.
Hoffman: I think everybody hopes that it's completed with the road because that's got the road project
underway as well but there's been, if you recall the referendum language in the brochure, it said Highway
101 trail will be built as a part of a future road project. And Highway 101 north trail was the highest
priority trail in the city at the time of the parks and trail and open space referendum was put together.
The committee agreed to take 101 out and put the other 6 segments ahead of that as long as there was that
disclaimer down there so the council still feels very strongly about making sure that that promise is kept
with the residents of Chanhassen.
Lash: And what were we estimating the segment, the southern segment that we want to try to do between
Mission Hills?
Hoffman: $200,000.
Lash: Okay. So that's still doable?
Hoffman: Yes.
Karlovich: So I'm trying to understand that last comment about the referendum. What did the
referendum?
Hoffman: The referendum had a note underneath which said the Highway 101 trail will be built at the
time of the future road improvement project, and that's why it's not in this package. And so the City
Council still wants to keep that, you know make that statement ring true.
Lash: But that said it was part of the road project.
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
Hoffman: Well the hopes is it's a part of a future road project. Where the council finally said you know
what, this road project is so messed up that we've been dragging this thing on, it's gone past 10 years
now that we've talked about putting a trail on 101 north so they ordered a feasibility study for a stand
alone trail.
Lash: So their promise isn't that it will be part of a road project. Their promise is that it would be
complete.
Hoffman: The City's promise, yes. It will be built.
Lash: Right. Okay, anybody have anything else?
Franks: Well I sure hope it goes in as part of a road project soon too because I'd hate to spend that
money on construction and then 2 years after that rip it up and realign the road and the trail and
everything.
Howe: ...doing but you'd have no way of knowing.
Karlovich: But just think of the other trails that could get completed in the meantime. The ones that
have the nice bridges along Highway 5 and some of the other projects.
Howe: It's an important trail though.
Franks: Yeah.' The people north have been waiting a long, long time to get connected.
Lash: And that's the problem. That's been our catch for, you know I don't know howmany years we've
been talking about this but we always say well, it just makes sense to do it as part of the road project, and
it does. I think we will all agree with that and probably the City Council agrees with that. Our problem
is we don't have any control over the road project going in and it could be, we don't know when. I mean
the worst scenario I can imagine is that we're going to spend a million dollars and put it in and then the
next year they're going to all of a sudden approve the road project and.
Spizale: If they approve the road project, where they took to build out, would they have to put it back in
again? Would they pay for that or would they have to pay for it again? I mean say they did have to go in
and tear that trail out.
Franks: But isn't the idea that what they're hoping is that the County tums over the road to the City. So
then it all becomes the City's responsibility.
Spizale: It's a MnDot road though.
Hoffman: It's a MnDot road now. It may go back to the County or the City.
Franks: The County or the City?
Karlovich: Doesn't it usually go to the County first then?
Hoffman: Usually, but take a swipe of a pen and it could come right down to the City.
Park and Rec Commission - December 11,2001
Lash: So if the road project went through, would this whole trail have to be ripped out?
Hoffman: Oh probably, sure. And it would probably be rebuilt into that project. I don't think the City
Council is, you know they're afraid of that, just as afraid of that scenario as you are. Nobody wants to do
that.
Lash: But they're willing to take that risk?
Hoffman: Oh I don't know.
Lash: Well they're the ones who ordered all of this to be done so I'm guessing that they are.
Hoffman: Well what they're, they want to guarantee that if the road project just goes away and
everybody walks away and says you know what, live with it. We won't be back for 5 years, then they're
going to build the trail.
Lash: Okay, so this is only as a part, this is only.
Hoffman: I can't say what they're thinking Jan. I don't know.
Lash: Okay.
Karlovich: If you look at the trail, it's well within, you know mostly within the right-of-way and some of
the right-of-way's only 33 feet on the center line so unless you're going to go on the east side of 101 to
widen the roadway, the trail has to be demolished when the roadway is done.
Lash: Okay, this is scheduled to go to the City Council in January. So if they approve to go ahead, they
· start moving forward, where would be the point of no return where if all of a sudden MnDot and the
Council and the City all come together and say well, we decided we are going to do the road project.
Hoffman: Any time prior to awarding the project.
Lash: Ordering the project?
Hoffman: Awarding.
Lash: Awarding. Which is April?
Hoffman: Yep.
Franks: What would be the cost to the City of going forward with this project all the way through to
detailed construction plans? Maybe you can just reference the page for me. I'm sure it's in your report
someplace.
Lori Johnson: I believe we gave the City a proposal for that construction documents. Are you talking
and easements or?
Franks: Well back to that other question but.
10
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
Karlovich: No just to, just to prepare your plans, what would that cost?
Lori Johnson: Yeah, I think we're talking about $150,000.
Franks: And how much is.
Karlovich: To prepare the plans?
Lori Johnson: Yes. That would include like all the surveying, easement exhibits.
Franks: And that's including what's been done so far to develop the concept plan?
Lori Johnson: Well it would depend a little bit on how much things change I guess but.
Lash: Okay, what is it that you want us to do tonight?
Hoffman: Nothing.
Lash: Okay.
Franks: Well we're good at that.
Karlovich: I think we need to, there's got to be some type of recommendation that. I don't understand
why we're going forward with this. Possibly spending an extra $600,000 out of the park and trail fund,
and to say possibly that oh, maybe we're just getting the plans in and we won't go ahead. Then we've
just blown $150,000. There seems to be a lot of other projects and I think this trail should have to wait
until the road project comes and the state aid money comes.
Howe: That may never come. I don't disagree. It's a lot of money to put on the wheel.
Karlovich: Then I think we should do another referendum where it doesn't say that it will be part of a
road project' and see if the voters want to vote for us paying all this money to an $850,000 trail along one
segment that possibly might be torn up in the relatively near future. That roadway is terrible. It needs to
be redone and redesigned for safety purposes and, and to handle any traffic flows. I don't know, it just
appears to me to be kind of an irresponsible course of action that we're going on.
Lash: Well I think the reason, you said you don't know why we're doing it. I can tell you why we're
doing it. The City Council has elected to move forward with a dual track schedule to assure the trail is
built. Which means this is one track. The other is the road construction.
Hoffman: Yeah, they're making decisions as they go along. If the negotiations over the next few weeks
don't go well with MnDot and the County, they could push this out. Push this out another year. Again, I
don't think the council's willing to, it's not their strong desire to spend $150,000 on a set of plans that
are just going to sit on the shelf if they're going to build the road as well so, they'll be making those
decisions as they move forward and the best way to keep in tune with that is to attend that meeting or to
give those folks a call before...what they're paying for. Send them some type of a recommendation from
the commission this evening.
11
Park and Rec Commission - December 11,2001
Lash: Well they're not really asking us for a recommendation, or for our opinion on it I don't think.
They've already elected to move forward with it.
Karlovich: Yeah, but we're spending half of the park and trail fund on one trail that was never intended
to cost this much and there's other projects in the city I think that the money could be spent on and this
one could wait a little bit longer until we get some turnback funds which would seem to make a lot more
sense for the greater good and the public.
Lash: I don't disagree with your thinking. If we want to try and figure out some way of communicating
our feeling on it to the City Council, I suppose that would be, this would be the time to do that but.
Spizale: Todd, was there money set aside for this trail at one point?
Hoffman: The previous council to this council.
Lash: So is that money still there?
Hoffman: Oh sure, yeah. The money that was set aside was the park and trail fund money. The
$850,000.
Lash: So that's been identified for north 1017
Hoffman: It was identified in 1999. 2000.
Franks: I thought it was $400,000?
Hoffman: Well it kept going up. It was 800 and some thousand identified at a council meeting. At a
budget meeting in December of 2000.
Howe: I think it was last year.
Karlovich: Are we also paying money to have at least plans done for the trail being part of a road project
also, or are we just doing the one set of plans?
Hoffman: Well there's no plans being developed on the road project. There is no project.
Franks: And are these plans for the trail being funded by general fund dollars or park and trail fund
dollars? Do these cover engineering or?
Hoffman: I don't know. I've not heard the, they're not included, are they included in the 1.27 Well,
then you know where they come from.
Lash: So the $850,000 1 want to check and see, was that something we had in our budget that we sent to
the City Council at one point?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: They did that, okay.
12
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
Franks: It's not currently in the CIP.
Hoffman: Yes it is.
Franks: Right now?
Hoffman: Yes.
Lash: But the City Council put that in there?
Hoffman: Correct.
Lash: That wasn't something that we worked on?
Hoffman: Right. It's your call. You recommended that the $200,000, or I think we had $250 set aside
for 101 south. That be set aside and moved up to 101 north. And that was simply increased to cover the
cost.
Karlovich: Is there any risk that we won't get the half a million dollars?
Hoffman: If we don't finish the trail in 3 years.
Howe: There's a time, I know that.
Karlovich: But that's just it, the time constraint?
Hoffman: As far as I know. I don't know what the recent budget shortfalls have that money in risk or
not.
Howe: Well that's what I'm wondering. Anyone...experience and again you're reading tea leaves here
but with the economy where it is and the fact that they just even re-surfaced 101, does that, would that
indicate that well you're probably not going to see any money come there for 5 years or 10 years.
There's no way to know that, is there?
Hoffman: There is not. The only thing you can say is that Representative Workman acquired those
funds or worked on acquiring those funds and a call to Tom might be in order. See if those monies are
safe or not.
Lash: One thing I want to be kind of careful of, I seem to recall we took kind of a hit when we put in the
pedestrian bridge with grant money and then there was all of the buzz about, well you know of course we
put it in because we got the grant money so wasn't that a good deal and then people were a little, not very
receptive to that because they figured it was a bridge that didn't go anywhere and no one ever used but.
So I want to make sure that that getting a $500,000 grant with a time constraint doesn't then push our
hand to do something that in the long run is not wise investment of money just because we're going to
get $500,000 from someone.
Hoffman: Yeah, so far anybody I've heard talk about this is not afraid to lose the $500,000.
Lash: Okay. Okay, well it sounds like there's some.
13
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
Franks: Are we in agreement as a commission that while we recognize the necessity to move as
expeditiously forward with constructing this trail, we also recognize that it's, it would be best for this
trail project to be combined with any future road reconstruction of 1017
Lash: I think that would be the most financially responsible position for us to take, and for our city
council to take. So do we want to send a message on?
Karlovich: I think the other comment is, you know either say you're going to go do the project and spend
the $150,000. Don't just say we're on a dual track and we might spend $150,000 on the plans and then
not follow through on doing it. I think if you're going to spend $150,000 on construction plans, you'd
better follow through on the project.
Lash: Okay, we need to I guess make a decision on if this is just for our information. If we want to just
accept it and move onto the next item or if we want to send a message to the city council if we have some
type of a unified opinion on something, we might as well share it with them.
Spizale: I don't think any of us feel real comfortable with it and I think we should maybe send a
message.
Franks: ! think we should clarify comfortable with the financial aspect of the project because I think you
know looking over the concept of the trail itself, it looks perfectly acceptable. So it might be good to
make that type of distinction just to be clear. That the trail, the concept plan for the trail as proposed you
know certainly looks great. Looks like it's fitting in with what MnDot's requirements would be. Where
our difficulty comes in is how the trail project itself is potentially going to be financed.
Lash: And the time line, which kind of is a.
Hoffman: You support the trail and you hope it's built with the road.
Lash: Right.
Franks: To sum it up.
Lash: Yeah, that would be our, that would be by far our first hope, wouldn't you say?
Karlovich: Yeah, I would totally agree with that. I think the trail is great and it's unfortunate that we've
had to wait so long for the trail but when you look at how narrow the right-of-way is there to go spend
half of the park and trail fund on a trail that really needs to be ripped up in the relatively near future, just
doesn't seem responsible expenditure of the public money, even though we're getting a half million
dollars for free, but I guess that's all coming out of our pockets at one point you know there anyway.
Lash: Okay. Can you summarize that somehow and send it off to them?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: No? Okay, then somebody else summarize it.
Howe: Do we need a motion?
14
Park and Rec Commission -December 11, 2001
Hoffman: I don't need a motion if you don't want to make one. If you want to make a motion, let's have
it.
Howe: Well I'd like to make a motion that you make the motion.
Franks: I've kind of summed it up twice so. You never can repeat it. Hopefully our minutes of this
meeting will be read and they'll certainly get the flavor of our comments and faith without just reading
our two cent summary so, it's a complicated issue and we all have some different feelings on it. I don't
know if we can all sum it all now, all of us.
Lash: ...sum it up by saying that, the commission feels the most financially responsible option is to hold
off until the road project is complete if we have some, if the City Council has some type of a projection
that it will be done within a fairly decent timeline. For me it would be 5 years. I don't know how you
guys feel. If they get a message that it could be redone in 5 years, I would wait. If it' s going to be more
than 5 years, then I would be more inclined to go ahead and do it as a stand alone project. Because in 5
years a trail gets a lot of use.
Karlovich: Todd, what was our, the life cycle for a trail anyway?
Hoffman: Somewhere between 7 and 10 years you can overlay it. And you know they last longer than
that so.
Karlovich: Yeah for, I don't know for me at least a 1.2 and I think the budget will probably, actual
budget will go a little bit higher but I think you're probably up to about a million and a half dollars I
could see at least waiting 10 years for that, even though half a million of it is not Chanhassen money, it's
still public money.
Lash: But that would be gone by then so.
Karlovich: Right.
Hoffman: I think that's a broad...
Franks: We can't even settle it.
Hoffman: I think that you support the trail is the number one thing here. This project is complicated and
it needs everybody to be backing this trail. Now I don't think there's any different feelings at the council
level than here. They're the elected officials. They're not going to try to spend money in a.
Lash: I think we support the trail wholeheartedly as a part of a road construction. We support the trail as
a stand alone project with hesitation. I do. Because that is a lot of money that could be wasted.
Karlovich: As a commission, if it was sent back down to us and made our decision, would we use the
money elsewhere?
Lash: If it was stand alone?
15
Park and Rec Commission - December 11,2001
Karlovich: If it was stand alone. Here we need $850,000 from the park and trail fund to go do this or do
we want to, where would we put it on our C]~?
Howe: You mean if the time frame were clearer and everything were clearer? Would we build it, is that
what you're saying?
Karlovich: I'm just saying would we put other projects first.
Howe: I don't know. I think it's pretty important. I think it's an important link.
Franks: I think historically this commission has had strong support for the Highway 101 North trail and I
know personally that if it were not on the radar screen that the road reconstruction was in any way
imminent I'd be personally in favor of going forward with the stand alone trail project. But one of the
neat things that the trail system of Chanhassen has done is connected our city, which is divided by major
highways. And especially that north/south division done by Highway 5 and the corridor trail down 101
would go a long way to reconnect those two portions of the city so they're pretty much stuck up there and
I think right now the only way to get into town is to hop in your car.
Lash: And there has been quite a bit of public input on how much they want it and how long they've
waited for it. That's gone on a long time. My only drawback is that fear that we do it and then within a
couple of years the road project goes through.
Franks: Right. And it's my guess that's the council's fear too. They have to answer.
Howe: Should we make a motion? Should we take a stab at one?
Lash: Sure. Why don't you try.
Howe: I move that we fully support the trail. The plans are good. That we as a commission have major
concerns about the timing. We'd like to see it part of a major road reconstruction project.
Franks: If at all possible it be conducted in conjunction with the 101 reconstruction.
Lash: Is there a second to that?
Spizale: I'll second it.
Lash: Okay, all in favor.
Howe moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission fully supports the trail
for 101 North, but have major concerns about the timing. Would like to see it as part of a major
road reconstruction project. All voted in favor, except Karlovich who opposed, and the motion
carried with a vote of 4 to 1.
Karlovich: I'll just, for the record, I just, it's just too much money for a temporary trail for me and that's
something that I cannot get past and I just think $200,000 here and there builds some other really great
trails throughout the city and I think that it's unfortunate but we should, I think the city should really
pursue getting that road turned back or get it turned back to the county and get those state aid funds and
spend this money elsewhere.
16
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
Lash: I think we all agree with that. That's why we said in the motion that we want it as part of the road
project. Okay. Okay, thanks Jay.
RECREATION PROGRAMS: TREE LIGHTING EVALUATION.
Ruegemer: Any questions?
Franks: Did Santa show?
Hoffman: It was nice. Very nice. That little park down there with the old St. Hubert's all lit up and the
lights at old village hall, the crowd had a good time.
Lash: Good. Sounds like the bonfire was good. Sounds good. Thanks Corey.
RECREATION CENTER REPORT.
Marek: I'm sure you can all read what I put in the packet. Nothing new and interesting going on at the
rec center. I do know that the City Council is exploring closure on Sundays. Has that been determined?
Hoffman: Open.
Marek: Stay open for another year, thank you. The only new information coming out of the rec center is
the tri-fold brochure that you have in your packet, and any comments you have on that would be
appreciated. That's all I have.
Lash: Looks good. Okay. Anybody have any questions? Okay, thanks Susan.
SENIOR CENTER REPORT.
Wickenhauser: Well currently I'm working on oUr holiday social that we're going to be hosting at the
Rec Center this Friday. We have a catered luncheon. It will be catered by Milly's Deli and
Entertainment. I roughly have 95 who have registered for that program. Other trips that are coming up
are the holiday lighting tour that's being sponsored by Southwest Metro Transit on their new trolley.
And that is full. And I also have a Doc Severson program at Orchestra Hall at the end of the month.
That is also completely sold out so other than the busy programs there. The program itself has been
busy. We had 135 seniors that received flu shots this year. Daily activities continue to do well. We
have our bridge and card club activity continue to have 40 people a week for that program. Our wood
carving group have added I'd say 3 new people or so to their program, and I believe they've been having
I'd say about 12 people a week so it's kind of a great group. Our Chandoliers, which is our singing
group, they continue to sing at nursing homes or retirement facilities. Their latest performance was at the
Chanhassen Target for their senior shopping day on December 4th, so they had a big crowd. Besides
good weekly attendance numbers, I've also continued to see new people stop in to be on a mailing list or
to collect information on the senior center. The notes...half of them have been from the Chaska area so.
So to combat that I would like to start a welcome committee that would maybe meet a couple months.
The type of program that would offer to have them come in and have a complimentary luncheon and
show them a video that the senior commission and senior advisory board have developed that kind of
details the senior center activities and some of the accomplishments of the senior commission has done
over the years so we'll be ready to start that in the year 2002. Lastly, I'm working on a report for the
17
Park and Rec Conm~ission - December 11,2001
senior commission that kind of demonstrates the growth of the senior center since I took over in 1985 to
the present. And there's some tables in here. It's very rough draft but I thought it'd be interesting
because they only need...twice a year just to see what kind of numbers I'm coming up with. I do want to
put it into a bar graph form so you can see a little bit more visually where those numbers sit but it is kind
of interesting so. Besides these 3, the monthly attendance numbers. Daily activity attendance averages
and daily attendance averages by the day. They also want me to break it down as far as when the highest
peak of the day is so, on Monday was the highest usage. All this is, this report has kind of been
requested because they're interested in the space. The library space needed. We continue to see growth
and so they want to demonstrate that for argument sake for possible additional space. So once I've
completed this I will share this with you in the next couple months packet or I'll just return in June and
give you the final report so other than that, Merry Christmas. Enjoy your holidays. That's all I have.
Lash: Good.
Franks: I like the numbers. Like seeing that.
Wickenhauser: I hope to complete it in the next few months. It took a while to go through ali those
numbers.
Lash: Okay, thanks.
PARK AND TRAIL MAINTENANCE REPORT.
Gregory: I've got kind of a good news, bad news report for you and the good news is the weather has
been great. We've gotten all kinds of stuff done. Odd jobs around the parks. Our ballfields, soccer
fields all really held up very good this fall and that through all the use. We had a little bit over use on
Lake Ann out in the soccer bowl area and we corrected that. Taken care of that area. And so we've had
a chance to get everything up and running good for the next year. Bad part of it is the weather's too
good. Ice is really out quite a ways. I just, I punched up the 10 day forecast today and the coldest night
is 17 degrees and the days are running anywhere from 30 to 37-38 degrees and there's just no way that
we can do anything. We need really cold weather for a week to get frost in the ground and then we need
another 7 days of 24 hour a day flooding to have ice and it' s not looking good right now for a while.
Lash: You might just get them going and then it will be time to close them down.
Hoffman: Yeah, once February hits, the days get too long and the sun comes around and we start, last
year we went to March for the first time in our history.
Gregory: Last year was one of our longest years. We were already flooding at this time last year and we
went into March.
Lash: I saw on the weather last night, it was 11 below last year on this day. 1 was the high.
Gregory: Might be just the opposite this year. That pretty much covers it. I just added some on the
bottom about what some of the guys are doing in schools and stuff upcoming. Re-certification and that
type of thing that...little bit more time and we're working out there now and that. We're trying to get all
our benches and everything kind of set up and that and once we get it all set up and that, it would be great
to have you come out.
18
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
Spizale: Yeah, would like that.
Lash: Okay, thanks.
ADMINISTRATIVE:
2002 MEETING SCHEDULE.
Lash: Does anybody see anything that jumps right out at you?
Hoffman: Kind of tough to read. Did you guys get color?
Howe: Yes.
Hoffman: There's a couple of alterations in there. You moved to a Wednesday, is it in May? Because
of the holiday. And I think that's the only major change.
Lash: We couldn't just, we can't just move it up to the 21st? So we alternate with the Planning
Commission kind of, right?
Hoffman: Yeah, planning was off Wednesday and they moved to Tuesday.
Lash: Okay. Anybody see anything there? Okay.
APPOINTMENT OF 2002 CHAIR AND CO-CHAIR.
Lash: Does that have to happen now or would it wait until we have new, we have 3 people who's terms
are up, correct?
Hoffman: Oh, wait til April? Typically you'll select annually for this so you should select by your
January meeting. But you have 2 members absent. Table it until January?
Lash: Yeah. Well you're up right Mike?
Howe: I'm up in April.
Lash: I'm up and Jay, you're up?
Karlovich: I'm up.
Franks: Chair, I would move that we table this, making the appointments of the Chair and Co-Chair until
the January meeting when we can have a full compliment of commission members here.
Lash: Okay, is there a second to that?
Howe: Second.
Franks moved, Howe seconded to table the appointment of Chair and Co-Chair for 2002 to the
January meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
19
Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS.
Lash: Under committee reports we can do the appointment to this new committee. The City Center
Commons Design.
Hoffman: Here's a publication from Damon Farber and Associates showing you. They gave a
presentation to the City Council last night. Generally where this space is situated. There's two locations.
City Hall and then the library sits down in the corner. And primarily we're talking about 2 football fields
right here on the intersection on West 78th and Market Boulevard, so there's a space here that's 2 football
fields in size and that's what we' re referring to as City Center Commons. The old bank building is right
here which will be demolished here this spring. And this is the location, this is a secondary space which
will be included in this study, but it's not. It's an important space. You need to make a connection but
this is the simple layout.
Lash: So it's basically green space in town?
Hoffman: Well it could be green space. It could be a more of an urban park setting. It could be more of
a gathering spot for large events. There's 101 different ways this can be built.
Franks: How many people do we get to appoint to the committee?
Hoffman: Park and Rec, one. One from the downtown, probably the Downtown Council, the Chamber
of Commerce. An additional council member has stepped forward. That's Councilman Craig Peterson.
And then the six members of the Library Task Force which includes the Mayor, Linda Jansen and the
other members of the Library Task Force.
Franks: Traditionally as a commission we review and approve park plans. Will that be the process as
you understand on this City Center Commons?
Hoffman: Don't ~know.
Franks: Don't know?
Hoffman: Don't know.
Lash: I guess that's, sort of piggy backing on Rod's question. I guess I'm just kind of wondering why
we weren't just given direction to just be the people to work with the guy. What's his name? Mr.
Farber. I mean if we were doing City Center Park or some other kind of area like that it would just fall
under our area. This seems like this committee, while I can appreciate the people on the library
committee have an interest in it because they've been involved in the library design, to me the, this 2
acre, or this 2 ballfield space outside of it is a different issue and it seems to me like it should just fall to
the park and rec commission as a task to you. So I guess I'm, it just seems like there's being a committee
developed to replace what could be normally our function. So I guess that's my concern. It just seems
like it's an unnecessary committee when we could just be the appointed body to do it and be done with it.
Hoffman: Well the council directed us to do tiffs.
Lash: I ~ow. That's why I'm saying it. Okay, somebody want to jump right in this committee?
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Park and Rec Commission - December 11, 2001
Spizale: I'd like to, yeah.
Lash: Okay. Good Jack.
Spizale: I'd be interested.
Lash: It will be so, thanks. Okay, so that's taken care of.
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None.
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET.
Lash: We have this new letter, right? And then did anybody have anything under the packet itself before
we go onto the letter.
Ruegemer: We will not be starting hockey practice the 17th of December.
Lash: Okay, so Todd on the skate park. Will that be on our agenda in January then? To go back and re-
visit?
Hoffman: Yep.
Lash: Great. Anybody have anything else on that? Okay. How about our letter from Tamara and
Samantha, I remember them when they were in kindergarten. Little twins. So they're requesting some
lights at Power Hills. Power at Power Hill.
Hoffman: Correct.
Franks: Well I know for me darkness approaching has always been a good excuse to get the kids off the
hill and back towards the house so.
Lash: Except when it's dark at 4:30.
Franks: No, that's what I'm talking about.
Lash: Where do we have a light? Do we have a light out in the parking lot area there?
Hoffman: No, no. There's no lights...
Lash: There's no lights at all? So we don't even have power there, right?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: Well that's an easy answer then.
Howe: It's a precedent too. It's a great idea but.
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Park and Rec Commission - December 11,2001
Lash: Well I commend these gals for taking the initiative to write a letter and I certainly think, I
sincerely think we need to reply and say we appreciate their suggestion. We don't have electricity out
there at this time.
Howe: I think you should write, there's no power at Power Hill.
Karlovich: Are there any homes near-by?
Hoffman: Sure.
Lash: Yeah, they're all over.
Karlovich: Because I know the pond behind our house, we run a cord down there and put in our own
lights.
Lash: Oh, you wrote a letter already. It's on the back. I didn't see that.
Hoffman: There's street lights probably at Flamingo.
Gregory: Yeah, but not right at the entrance.
Hoffman: Kim said the girls wrote the letter and they'll probably show up at a council meeting.
Lash: Good.
Franks: Will putting in that light for the skating rink at Chan Hills Park, what was the cost on that, do
you remember?
Hoffman: $30,000.
Franks: Because that'd be a similar type of project.
Hoffman: Oh, much more extensive I think. You're talking power poles down the sides of the hill.
Franks: Oh no, I was thinking just like a flood light at the top or something. So just for what happened
at Chan Hills, that was like $30,000?
Hoffman: That was the budget. I don't know if, I don't think it, believe it ended up costing that much
but running the power...
Lash: Okay, anybody have anything else? Okay, is there a motion to adjourn?
Howe moved, Karlovich seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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