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3. First Annual Review, Use of Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit Route as a Snowmobile Trail1 1 1 1 1 TO: 1 FROM 1 DATE: SUBJ: 1 P n r CITY OF 3 �HANBASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937 -1900 • FAX (612) 937 -5739 Action by City Admmt IRM" Don Ashworth, City Manager Todd Hoffman, Park & Recreation Director August 8, 1995 Endorsed W Modified Rejected DO- Date Submitted to Commts*n Date Sn "miffed to Co UGA j- 1q 1S First Annual Review, Use of Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit Route as a Snowmobile Trail The Park & Recreation Commission reviewed the aforementioned issue on July 27, 1995. The attached report was submitted to the commission. Upon concluding their discussion on July 27, the commission made the following motion: "Commissioner Andrews moved, Commissioner Roeser seconded to recommend the city council approve the use of the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit Route as a snowmobile trail for the 1995/96 snow season. This use to be governed by a 30 mph speed limit and an 11 p.m. to 7 a.m., seven day a week curfew." RECOMMENDATION It is recommended that the city council confirm the recommendation forwarded by the Park & Recreation Commission on July 27, 1995. Specifically, that the city council approve the use of the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit Route as a snowmobile trail for the 1995/96 snow season. This use to be governed by a 30 mph speed limit and an 11 p.m. to 7 a.m., seven day a week curfew. Attachments: Park & Recreation Commission Report dated July 20, 1995 0 Residents in close proximity to the trail Chanhassen Snowmobile Club MEMORANDUM CITY OF �8AN8ASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937 -1900 • FAX (612) 937 -5739 TO: FROM: DATE: SUBJ: Park & Recreation Commission Todd Hoffman, Park & Recreation Director July 20, 1995 ;;�K i First Annual Review; Use of Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit Route as a Snowmobile Trail I On October 10, 1994, the Chanhassen City Council acted to: "Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the request by the Southwest Metro Trail Association to utilize the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route as a snowmobile trail with a speed limit not to exceed 40 mph, an annual review, and additional details regarding curfews and enforcement to be worked out at the next Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed, and the motion carried with a 4 to 1 vote." Subsequently the Park & Recreation Commission established a 30 mph speed limit and an 11:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m., seven day a week curfew. Following this action, the necessary permit for this use was secured from Hennepin County Park Reserve. After four months of debate, the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route, within the corporate boundaries of Chanhassen, was approved as a snowmobile route. And then... precious little snow fell. Over the winter, I noticed some snowmobile tracks on the trail, though I cannot recall ever seeing a snowmobile. The city, to my knowledge, did not receive a single complaint during the 1994/95 snow season regarding snowmobilers on this trail. Nor did I hear a single exclamation that approving the use of snowmobiles was the "best action the city had ever taken!" Simply put, no one could love or hate the snowmobile trail during the winter of 1994/95. Snowfall adequate to tell the story never arrived. MEMORANDUM Park & Recreation Commission July 20, 1995 Page 2 Recommendation It is recommended that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the City Council approve the use of the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit Route as a snowmobile trail for the 1995/96 snow season. This use to be governed by a 30 mph speed limit and an 11:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m., seven day a week curfew. Attachments 1. Trail location map. 2. Letter to Chanhassen Snowmobile Club dated July 18, 1995. 3. City Council minutes dated October 10, 1994. 4. Report to Park & Recreation Commission dated October 21, 1994. 5. Park & Recreation Commission minutes dated October 25, 1994. c: Don Ashworth, City Manager Scott Harr, Public Safety Director LeRoy Biteler, Chanhassen Snowmobile Club - -- 2300 -2200 1 -210C -2000 -1900 -1900 -1700 160 -1300 -1200 - 1100 -1000 1 S S S S o o S O n a o g ° o 8 0 0 ° o $ g ° o ° o ° o ° o 1 G ' 700 600 500 1 1 0 '00 ♦ n � 300 O C. T 200 % i n S 7 4 c IV AUOUPON I -- �- - �,. _. � I (T.M 1017 R� 'L = 1= 1 s a 1� IOG 0 PT n J o O U Y w N O b a 0 0 0 O 0 0 Q O Q O 0 0 O O O 1 s � July 18, 1995 CITY OF �8AN8ASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937 -1900 • FAX (612) 937 -5739 Chanhassen Snowmobile Club c/o Mr. LeRoy Biteler 910 Penamint Court Chanhassen, MN 55317 Dear Mr. Biteler: Thank you for your inquiry regarding the continued use of the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route as a snowmobile trail. This issue has been scheduled for review by the Park & Recreation Commission on Tuesday, July 27 (see enclosed agenda). Contingent upon the commission making a recommendation to the city council, the council will review this issue on August 14. A copy of my report to the commission will be forwarded to you. Good luck as you continue planning for the 1995/96 snow season. Sincerely, Todd Hoffman, CLP Park & Recreation Director TH:k Enclosure c: Don Ashworth, City Manager Scott Harr, Public Safety Director CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 25, 1994 Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Dave Huffman, Jane Meger, Jan Lash, Fred Berg, Jim Manders, Ron Roeser, and Jim Andrews STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor; and Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor ESTABLISH PROPOSED SPEED LIMITS AND HOURS OF USE FOR SNOWMOBILES ON THE SOUTHWEST REGIONAL LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT ROUTE., Todd Hoffman gave the staff presentation on this item for the commission. Andrews: Thank you Todd. At this time I'll invite people from the audience to make comments. I'll just remind you, this is not an opportunity to discuss pro or con. Do we want snowmobiles anymore? It's to discuss speed limits and curfew times. If there's anybody from the audience that wishes to make a comment regarding the speed limits or the curfew times, please step forward now. State your name and address and make a brief comment for the record please. LeRoy Biteler: LeRoy Biteler, 910 Penamint Court, Chanhassen. I don't have a great deal to comment at all. Todd pretty much summed up exactly what we would like to see. The 30 mph speed limit, 11:00 curfew. Numbers have been tossed around from 20 mph to 40 mph. We actually have a number of 30 mph speed limit signs. We'd like to use those up. I guess the other comment that I'd like to make, with our thinking of patrolling this trail, when we can't get the DNR out there or the Carver County out there, and what I would personally tell them, if they were putting up a speed trap, is that anything over 40 mph would automatically get a ticket. No questions asked. No ifs, and's or but's about it. 30 mph just keeps them down that much slower. That's all really I have to comment unless you have questions. Berg: What's the speed limit in Chaska? I know in Shorewood it's 20. Do you know what it was in Chaska? LeRoy Biteler: They really don't have any trails where they have a posted speed limit, other than the inner city, in town and that might be 10 or 15 or 20 mph. Otherwise, statewide the speed limit is 50 mph unless it's posted by a roadway or something like that. 1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994 ' Hoffman: The memo from Greg... states that no speed limit. Speed limit. No snowmobile may be operated in excess of 10 mph on any street or in excess of 20 mph at any other ' location within the city. Andrews: Is there anybody else from the audience that wishes to make a comment? Okay. I'll ask for comments from commission members please. Or a motion would be. Berg: I have a couple of comments. I guess I'd like to see uniformity and I'd suggest ' uniformity across the board and maybe because I suggested 20 mph originally when I was talking about it a few weeks ago. In my mind, because Chaska has a 20 mph and as does the Shorewood trail and we're consistent with our time curfew, I would just as soon see it ' consistent with our speed limit as well. Just a suggestion. Andrews: Personally I feel 20 mph, especially in the daylight, is a crawl. I mean that is ' really slow and I just think it would be ignored. That's unnecessarily slow and I'm, I don't know a snowmobile. I hate them, to be honest. I'd much prefer to walk or cross country ski but 20 mph is, I mean they don't like to run at that speed. ' Lash: You know I'm not actually, I'm not super knowledgeable about them but I know that you have a lot of problems with over heating too and at slower speeds if the air temperature is a certain amount. Do you know more about that Dave? Huffman: I know if I go faster, I get there sooner. Lash: I know but I have snowmobiled in the past and I tend to. ' Huffman: It's a doppler effect. I have a smaller doppler effect. Lash: I tend to be kind of a conservative driver and I don't drive very fast and I've been yelled at many times for driving too slow and then my engine starts to over heat and then you have to stop and... Roeser: I think that Shorewood trail has lots and lots of roads crossing it. You know from Hopkins and Victoria, you go through a lot of intersections. On this trail down here, there's ' two. I think 30 is really reasonable. Lash: Do you know what it is going to be in Chaska? Have they decided yet or not? For ' this section. Their section of this trail. LeRoy Biteler: They've made no decisions and don't intend to. 2 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994 Lash: So they're not going to post it at all? LeRoy Biteler: You're speaking about a speed limit in Chaska which is on city streets to get on and off. Roeser: Yeah, that's a different thing. City streets is different than a trail. LeRoy Biteler: Yeah, we're not, Chaska isn't talking about a speed limit of 20 mph throughout their entire trail system. As you get out into the further countryside of Chaska, there's additional speed limits going up. Lash: So it'd be the State guidelines. LeRoy Biteler: That would be the State guidelines at that point. Lash: And they have not discussed posting this particular trail? LeRoy Biteler: No. Hoffman: This trail property ends right at Chaska. Huffman: The other thing is this trail is very small. It's a very tiny segment of this whole thing and all you're doing is this is a highway. It's not an off and on ramp. It's getting from Point A to Point B and trying to get out farther. That's my understanding. Andrews: I also think for people that may get on this trail in Eden Prairie with the hope of getting out to the countryside, you know the difference between 20 mph and 30 mph adds a significant amount of trail time to get out to the open country. I don't think 30 is an unreasonable time. I think Mr. Biteler's comment about that they already have an inventory of 30 mph signs, I mean that may sound silly but that's a good reason in my opinion to use them too. If there's a problem, we can always make a change at a future date. I mean we're not bound forever to stick with a posted limit. Lash: When this comes up for the annual review, will it come to us first and then go to City Council or just come to us or what kind of a process do you think that will be? Andrews: I don't believe that City Council put this up for annual review, did they? Lash: Yes they did. 3 0 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - October 25, 1994 Andrews: Okay. Hoffman: Annual review. Come back to the Park Commission. Huffman: Could I make a recommendation? I'm sorry, if somebody else wants to. I was just going to make a motion that we offer the 30 mph speed limit on our section of the trail, 11:00 curfew 7 days a week. Andrews: I guess one clarification Todd. Is there a starting time? I mean if you curfew people off at 11:00, what time are we letting them on? Huffman: Let me amend that motion to 11:00 p.m. off trails to 7:00 a.m. to be consistent with Chaska. ' Andrews: Is there a second to that motion? Meger: I'll second that. ' Andrews: Any further discussion? ' Huffman moved, Meger seconded that the Paiiz and Recreation Commission recommend a 30 mph speed limit and an 11:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m., seven days a week, curfew be established foi- the Southwest Regional Light Rail Tiansit Route. All voted in favor and the motion carried ' unanimously. LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL: REZONING OF 49.9 ACRES OF PROPERTY, ZONED A2. AGRICULTURAL ESTATE TO R4, MIXED LOW DENSITY RESIDENTIAL AND PRELIMINARY PLAT OF 49.9 ACRES INTO 982 TWIN HOME LOTS AND ONE, OUTLOT. LOCATED NORTH OF HIGHWAY 5 APPROXIMATELY 1/4 MILE ON THE EAST SIDE OF GALPIN BOULEVARD, LOTUS REALTY SERVICES, LAKE ANN, ' HIGHLANDS. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. ' Andrews: Is the applicant here? ' Hoffman: No, he's not. Andrews: Or a representative of the applicant. ' 4 CITY OF �HaNHassEN 1,I 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 ' (612) 937 -1900 • FAX (612) 937 -5739 TO: Park and Recreation Commission FROM: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director 4AJI L DATE: October 21, 1994 SUBJ: Establish Proposed Speed Limits and Hours of Use for Snowmobiles on the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit Route On Monday, October 10, 1994, the Chanhassen City Council took the following action in regard to the aforementioned issue: Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the request by the Southwest Metro Trail Association to utilize the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route as a snowmobile trail with a speed limit not to exceed 40 mph, an annual review, and additional details regarding curfews and enforcement to be worked out at the next Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed, and the motion carried with a 4 to 1 vote. In response to the Council's action, the commission shall establish the speed limit, which shall not exceed 40 mph, and hours of operation for this trail. The Cities of Chaska and Shorewood currently enforce an 11:00 p.m. curfew seven days per week. The speed limit on the Shorewood rails to trails snowmobile route is currently 20 mph. Staff Recommendation It is recommended that a 30 mph speed limit and an 11:00 p.m. seven day per week curfew be established for the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit Route. Attachment 1. October 10, 1994 City Council Minutes. PC: LeRoy Biteler, Chanhassen Snowmobile Club MEMORANDUM F-il I � 0 Li �J City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 bed being displaced in the northeast comer of the site shall be improved to provide an entrance feature for the sidewalk. The final design shall be subject to staff review and approval. 17. The sign package must come back to the Planning Commission for approval. 18. Either provide stormwater pass - through openings in the bottom of the Perkins' trash enclosure, reduce the size of the enclosure, or move the enclosure west to permit stormwater to flow unimpeded into the storm sewer /catch basin located in the corner of the parking area 19. Increase common driveway aisle from 25 feet wide to 26 feet wide face to face and align the access onto Target Lane with the existing curb line in the Target parking lot. 20. No window signs will be permitted. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Councilman Wing: Could I just, as a follow up comment, because Mark's really hitting something here that I think we've got to deal with and I'd like staff to take it real seriously. You've got Mark's comments on the trash. Kate Aanenson: Yes. Councilman Wing: As I drove out tonight looking at the Abra and the Goodyear, trash is trash. I don't care what you do with it. It's on the highway and it looks terrible and it makes those, it looks like somebody's back yard and I agree with Mark 100 %. 1 think this is really worth pursuing aggressively. No more of this outdoor, it's simply trash and it really does take away from what we're trying to do with an attractive nature. And also remember that we talked about buildings forward. Parking lots and all the stuff on the other side. I wish now we could redo Abra and Goodyear and definitely put the building's forward and the trash on the back because it really does detract, so I appreciate Mark's comments. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. CONSIDER REOUEST OF SOUTHWEST TRAIL ASSOCIATION TO UTILIZE SOUTHWEST REGIONAL LIGHT RAIL TRAIL ROUTE AS A SNOWMOBILE TRAIL., I Public Present: Name Address Doug Brown 10 Fox Hollow Drive Brad Blomquist 7141 Derby Drive Guy P. 7521 Chippewa Trail Franlde Evanoff 1401 Hesse Farm Road Bill Kullberg Southwest Trail Assn, P.O. Box 34, Navarre David Johanning 931 Butte Court Charles Littfm 7609 Laredo Drive Charles Westfahl 6870 Redwing Lane 15 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Kristine Oppman 532 Lyman Rick & Diane Riegert 520 Lyman Ben & Jill Schaefbauer 621 Broken Arrow Drive Rick Halver 10271 Great Plains Blvd. Mark & Deana Hagen 7737 South Shore Drive Jim Andrews Park and Rec Commission Jan Lash Park and Rec Commission Jim Manders Park and Rec Commission Fred Berg Park and Rec Commission Gary Delaney Bluff Creek Inn Todd Hoffman: Mr. Mayor, members of the City Council. To begin with, this is an aerial photo showing the trail corridor as it divides southern Chanhassen. The upper right hand corner you start at Pioneer Trail terminus in Eden Prairie and continue southwest crossing Highway 101, crossing Bluff Creek Drive and eventually terminating at the southern end in the city of Chaska. You got two additional letters from residents this evening at your desk. There's also copies of those letters for the audience on the chair around to my left. In addition to that, Susan and Bruce Breck also called residing at 1180 Hesse Farm Road wishing to voice their opposition to the use of the trail. Some brief background information. On March 22nd of this year LeRoy Biteler, who is in the audience this evening, representing the Chanhassen Snowmobilers and Southwest Metro Trails made a visitor presentation before the Park and Recreation Commission regarding this issue. They did submit a written letter request dated March 14th in this regard and that was presented to the commission. The commission... discussion that evening directed staff to formally place the issue on a future agenda of the Park and Recreation Commission. That review occurred on June 28th of this year. The Commission reviewed that request. The item was published in the Chanhassen Villager, as it has been in subsequent meetings. A neighborhood letter was distributed to residents in the area of the trail and the snowmobile association was notified. That evening the commission reached a split decision on this issue with a 3 to 3 vote. With no alternative available, Chairperson Andrews chose to pass the issue onto the City Council with that split vote. On August 22nd of this year you reviewed this issue for the first time. That discussion resulted in 17 pages of verbatim Minutes. Upon taking public comment and concluding your discussion that evening, you chose to table the request of the Southwest Metro Trail Association awaiting further resolution by the city's Park and Recreation Commission. On September 27th of this year, at the direction of the City Council, the Park and Recreation Commission reviewed this issue for a second time and they took the following action. Commission Huffman moved, Commissioner Roeser seconded to recommend the Chanhassen City Council make the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit Route available to snowmobilers during the winter months. No other motorized vehicles will be allowed. Signage, hours of use, speed limits and other enforcement rules will be worked out with the Department of Public Safety officials, city officials and other pertinent folks pending City Council approval with this recommendation. Commissioners Lash, Meger, Huffman and Roeser were in favor of that motion. Commissioners Berg, Manders and Andrews were opposed. The motion carried with a 4 to 3 vote. Tonight I asked the City Council, in order to bring this nearly 7 month process just one step closer to a resolution, that you render a decision in this regard. As you are aware in the events that a motion in favor of the snowmobilers is forwarded and a formal request from the City of Chanhassen must be, for winter use of the trail must be submitted to Hennepin Parks in order to utilize the section of trail under their jurisdiction. The outright ownership of the entire corridor down to Highway 212 and then slightly beyond is held by the Hennepin County Regional Rail Authority. The ultimate purpose of this corridor is for light rail transit at some point in the future. In the interim Hennepin Parks, Hennepin County Parks, regional park providers, signed on with an agreement with the Rail Authority to utilize the trail down to Bluff Creek. They were at fast going to terminate it at Highway 101 because their real intention was to get south to Shakopee and to travel down to their southern most 16 0 L u i City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 parks at Murphy Hanneran and Cleary Lake Park. However they felt Bluff Creek, where there's wider right -of- way and more subtle grades at the crossing was a better location for the terminus of their section of the trail. They have constructed a parking lot ..trailhead identification. The city's seen the advantage of the trail system and then picked up an agreement with the City of Chanhassen with the City of Chaska and completed the segment from Bluff Creek to Chaska. Now Chaska this fall will continue it at TH 212. It will not cross over the bridge at TH 212 as is the case at TH 101. That bridge will be replaced next year but they will travel north half of Highway 212 at that point and connect with downtown Chaska. So again this request has to go to Hennepin Parks. Hennepin Parks has the authority to say yes or no. Even if the City Council approves the use this evening. And again, Hennepin Parks in their agreement may grant such approval or they—not. We do have members of the Park and Recreation Commission present in the audience this evening, if you would wish to receive input from them or have questions of them. Otherwise we're looking for a decision from the City Council this evening. Mayor Chmiel; Okay, thank you. Prior to opening this up I just wanted to mention two things. Number one, we have had an opportunity to read all of the information that is contained in these two documents. Secondly, that if there is someone wishing to indicate something new that has not been discussed, we would be more than happy to listen to that presentation. What I'd like to do is to try to limit this to probably at least 3 minutes each to indicate your concerns, one way or the other. And if it's repetition, if you'd please just stay seated unless you feel there's something new, as I mentioned, that you'd like to inject into this. Then feel free to do so. So with that I would like to open the floor for anyone who has something new that we can listen to at this time. Yes. Please state your name and your address and come up to the microphone. Frankie Evanoff. Good evening. My name is Franlde Evanoff. I live at 1401 Hesse Farm Road. I'm right off of Bluff Creek Road. I've been snowmobiling for, since 1969. I've lived in Hesse Farms for 15 years. All of our trails have been taken away and this is just one opportunity for us to get from Point A to Point B. I've snowmobiled elsewhere on railroad beds and it's, we don't go off of them. It's just a way for us safely to get to where we're going. And as far as noise where I live, to be truthful I will never hear that noise. I don't see any other way there possible for some of us in the neighborhood ... snowmobile to get to Chanhassen or Chaska with all of the housing developments. So this would be a very easy way and a safe way. As far as the property that goes down to the tracks, I don't know if you've ever walked that railroad bed. Most of those homes are on bluffs. As far as snowmobilers going off that trail and going onto private property ... I can't imagine anybody going off at that point into the neighborhood ... some of the people who have voiced a concern, they live on the other side of the road in this development. Quite a ways away from that railroad bed. They would never hear that noise. Even the 18 wheelers that are coming up Bluff Creek Road, that's more of a noise than these snowmobiles would be. I hear a lot of traffic from that road and that's—traffic so I think that this should go through. I think that the snowmobilers should have a right to use this trail. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else? Gary Delaney: My name is Gary Delaney and my wife and I, Ann, own the Bluff Creek Inn which is just off of Bluff Creek Drive. This afternoon I had a chance to make a few calls to check with some of our neighboring communities and I checked with Eden Prairie to see how they had dealt with this issue and you folks probably well know already that they declined it. Second of all I spoke at length with the Deputy Assistant to the Sheriff of Carver County, Mr. Jim Castleberry and Jim classified the problems in working and trying to make sense out of the existing snowmobile trails throughout Carver County and Chaska, which you probably know he's a City Council person within Chaska also. And from the law enforcement standpoint his quote is, it's a nightmare. He said it's very dangerous. What happens is that it's not the responsible parent that works with their machines 17 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 nicely and correctly but it's later on when the teenage kids frequently get a hold of them and off they start roaring. He referred to it as completely unable to cope with the problems which they have with snowmobiles throughout Carver County. So that led me to check with Scott County, which I did. Scott County, unlike Carver County, has an enforcement police force and two deputy sheriff groups and I'm not sure exactly how it works but they also own snowmobiles and they have organized trails that go from Shakopee to Belle Plain that are well staffed, policed and are maintained. But what we're talking about here is 2 or 4 miles that's kind of isolated that would require, I hope, some kind of policing that we don't have available within Chanhassen since we contract with the County to do this enforcing. And also from out standpoint at the Bluff Creek Inn, we have many guests at all times of the year that are walking that trail and if it's during the winter, what we have found, and ourselves, we walk that trail. If you folks have done it since you've been on that trail since it's been paved, it's marvelous. It's beautiful. It's a major asset to this community. There are snowmobile trails in this community already ... some problem for folks. I think it'd be nice to get a chance for our community to have some ambience with some well groomed ski trails. What Eden Prairie is doing is they're waiting to see if the community asks them to accept the ski trails down and to groom them and they've done, just kind of sit back this first year. What we would be doing is going right into the middle of the system. Chaska, according to what Jim said, would not be in favor of having this motorized traffic on it but there is no parking. I'm sure that there is 1 or 3 people that might have snowmobiles that would love to use it. Well, you would be bringing in trailers with the big snowmobiles on it and a small parking lot that's made for bikers. And that, trying to unload them and then the logistics of thinking that it would only go from sun up to sun down, as I understand that was one of the proposals. I don't know that that would really work so I think it's unenforceable. It would be setting a precedent and as far as I know, it's the only suburban community that has taken one of these abandoned railroad tracks and allowed a portion of it, or all of it to be used for snowmobiles. The Luce Line trail which I think you're all familiar with, and other abandoned railroad tracks throughout the suburban Twin Cities area, do not allow this and there are hundreds of miles of trails that are close by within the outlying areas, the suburban areas. A major one right over here in Scott County. I don't think we need this. I think it's premature to decide to allow it and the trail's only been there a short time and we would like to think that all of us would be able to use it for some peaceful, tranquil uses that the ambience of this community should be fostering rather than trying it into a semi commercial... Appreciate your attention. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone else? Todd, in regard to the city of Chaska What position has the city taken on that right now? Todd Hoffman: The President, LeRoy can you maybe respond to where they're at. LeRoy Biteler: Yeah, the city of Chaska, both Park and Rec and the City Council have approved. Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. Yes. LeRoy Biteler: I do have some comments. I'm LeRoy Biteler, Chanhassen Snowmobile Club. A couple of things to address Gary Delaney's comments. Scott Harr, and I thought he might be here this evening but I had a discussion with Scott Harr with respect to the potential of policing this trail and other trails in our area simply because the situation with the bike patrol came up that we had this summer. We had a person patrolling our trail systems by bicycle and I also am aware that Carver County has two snowmobiles. I asked Scott Harr if it's possible that this person that's on bicycle might be able to police our trails a few times this winter. He did comment to me, he did get back to me and he said that he had had some discussions with Carver County. I can't name those particular people that he discussed it with because I don't know but he did say that there's a good possibility that we may be able to accomplish some of this kind of policing with that kind of personnel. 18 ' City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Also in the past, as I reiterated to you before, we have called Carver County on their snowmobiles and we have ' been out policing our trails with them in the past. It's been done. As we mentioned, Chaska has approved the railroad beds. There are railroad beds in our community. One that goes between Victoria and Shorewood which we have snowmobiling and walkers on. The other thing that I'd like to address, and this being new information. I have come to find how far or how close some of these houses are to the railroad bed. That seems to have been a question that has come up. How close are they? How far away are they? In looking at the aerial map we were able to determine by scale, that we have one house at approximately 135 feet. We have two houses at 150 feet. And we have one house at 200 feet and the rest of them are at 200 feet or more away from the trail. ' Without giving you more information, of which you've already received, I want to reiterate a couple things. The testing that's been done on snowmobiles is 50 feet away. At 50 feet away the snowmobile at 40 mph is a decibel of 78. That's machines that are 1980 or newer. Highway traffic at 50 feet is 70 decibels. An automobiles stepping on the gas at 50 feet is 78 decibels. The decibels of the traffic in front of Shorewood City ' Hall at 50 feet away, 75 decibels. Now these sounds were all taken from out of doors. The point I'm trying to make here is that this snowmobile trail is 3 times the distance away from 50 feet. 50 feet, the homes are 150 feet away, most of them. And their windows are closed so to speak, most of the time in the winter time. The sounds of the snowmobiles on this trail is not an issue. It is going to be less than the sound of the traffic crossing the highway. That's the new point that I wanted to make to you. As snowmobilers, this is a public trail. We pay taxes on this trail system, like the rest of us. There's 462 registered sleds in Zip Code 55317. ' We feel that they have the right to use that trail in the winter time and this Club will provide the service to the community and those users of snowmobiles on that trail. We're not creating 35W, as some of you make it sound. There's going to be a few users during the week and more users on the weekend. I don't know those percentages. As a matter of fact, there's going to be no sleds on there if there's no snow. Our proposal to you, ' as we've talked a little bit before and in the letters that I've written. We would like to see a 40 mph speed limit. We'd like to see a curfew during the week at 10:00 and possibly 1:00 on weekends, but that's up for discussion, as I'm sure the rest of this is. We would sign and take care of this trail and maintain it. The fact that we're packing it down may also allow for people to have more of a desire to walk on it. If nobody's maintaining it, I'm not so sure how much they're going to even walk on it. Basically that's all I have to say. You may have some questions of ourselves from previous meetings. I'd be more than happy to answer those. ' Mayor Chmiel: Good, thanks. Let me ask you one question. Have the balance of those easements yet been gotten? LeRoy Biteler: It's been difficult to secure the easements on a cross country basis because we had to tell people, well we haven't got a trail yet. We're working on it and we describe the situation that we've been working on for 7 months. Our trail at this point, to access the railroad bed will be down CR 17 all the way to Pioneer Trail. ' We will take Pioneer Trail eastbound until it crosses the railroad bed. We will pursue our cross country path should this be approved and we have contacted some of those homeowners. Or not homeowners, landowners already. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thanks. Anyone else? Councilman Wing: Could I just ask a question on access. Another thing we're working on tonight on Lake ' Minnewashta is what used to be your access off the northwest comer of the lake along the creek. Homeowners and the new development's coming in are, I'm assuming are going to say no to that. Have you got an access, cross country access off that lake or a new one or a different location? C S I 19 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 LeRoy Biteler: We are aware of that. We've been spending so much time on this issue, we haven't hit that issue as hard as what we would like to. We're looking at a couple options. As you cross the lake, if you can visualize it as you cross the lake from Lake Minnewashta Park. We hit that reservation area. There's another little finger, I think it's to the north of there where a section of water comes in. We're looking at getting off the lake right there. We're also looking at the possibility of going, coming onto the lake from the park and going directly towards Highway 5. Taking Highway 5 out. Councilman Wing: Okay. That's what I was curious about. LeRoy Biteler: But we realize that we're not going to use that reservation, or that area this winter. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Anyone else? Rick Halver: My name is Rick Halver. I live at 10271 Great Plains Blvd, down close to the trail down there. I've lived in that area for 37 years and I find it real interesting that up until a year and a half ago, nobody paid any attention to this strip of land. Railroad track at all. None. The concerns of noise. Of snowmobiles. It didn't seem to be an issue when they built homes along there with freight trains going by. What's louder, a freight train or a snowmobile? And as recent as a year ago, I was down on that track when it was pieces of broken ties, weeds, engine blocks, nobody cared at all about that strip of land. Suddenly somebody improves it and people are coming out of the woodwork deciding who is going to be able to go on it. That's self serving. It's for everyone, isn't it? It's for everyone in the community and to not allow everyone in the community to use it, assuming there's going to be problems, isn't fair to everyone in the community. If everyone would work in a positive fashion, you could accomplish all sorts of things. If you go to Shakopee and run the state trail, which is an abandoned railroad bed. It runs through Shakopee to Chaska. They walk their dogs. They ride horses. They cross country ski and snowmobile on there altogether. It doesn't seem to be a problem. Suddenly a small group of people come out of the woodwork and decide who's going to be able to use this and who's not. Not everyone rides a bike. Not everyone cross country skis. And not everyone walks. And as a community it's only right for everyone in the community to appease everyone in the community to have an equal right. If there's a problem down the road, you deal with the problem as it comes up. But to disallow it, assuming there's going to be a problem, just isn't a positive move for everyone in the community. And I just can't imagine that this would even be an issue until it's tried because you never get anywhere unless you try. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Rick. Anyone else? Ken Durr: My name is Ken Dun. I have property on the northwest corner of Lake Minnewashta. The gentlemen here was referring to the reservation and I didn't know this subject was going to be on the agenda tonight. As long as it is, I'd like to make a couple of comments about the misuse of property by snowmobilers, particularly on the northwest side of the lake. I've owned property there for a number of years. I own the reservation that has been referred to tonight with snowmobiles have been exiting Lake Minnewashta for a number of years. We have put up no trespassing signs. We put up no snowmobile signs. We even fell a tree across the trail and put up signs. Some came with chainsaws and cut the tree away and removed it and continued to use it. We put haybales across. They've been removed. There's been complete disregard of private property. If that is the way that snowmobilers are going to use properties in this city, I think it's something that should not be considered because I tried for several years to control snowmobilers on my property to no avail. And I think there's complete disregard for private property. I had discussions with one of the people several years ago who indicated he was the Chairman or the some capacity in charge of snowmobilers asking if they could use that property. I said, no. From a liability standpoint, and just the standpoint of bringing 20 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 people out there to see the property, we didn't want that activity on it. The activity never diminished It continued just as though never was ever discussed. Nothing ever said. Signs removed. Complete disregard for property. So I hope that you people will control what is done, at least on my property, 20 acres of land along the shore of Minnewashta that has been misused over the years. ' Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Ken. Anyone else? Jill Schaefbauer: My name is Jill Schaefbauer and I live at 621 Broken Arrow Drive, and I agree with you sir snowmobilers should not trespass on people's property. My husband and I, we like to bike ride in the summer. Snowmobile in the winter and we're feeling restricted There's nowhere to go. The paths are being blocked off. Even right in Chanhassen on the main road by Target. There were signs went up last winter saying we weren't ' allowed to go that way. We had to find another route to get around to get to where we want to go. I feel we should open this path up and we shouldn't restrict people... I don't feel that snowmobilers should get a bad rap. ...into this community because they're hungry. I mean they drive in to the town and they want to eat. Also last winter we experienced in Excelsior on the lake, somebody had a heart attack when they were ice fishing and the ' cops were asking, they pulled my husband and I aside and said, can you please stay here and be available... Snowmobilers help police. They help the ambulance. They help the fire department. We're not here to hinder people and as far as noise levels. I lived in an apartment right next to the railroad tracks... I did not wake up in ' the middle of the night when a train went by. Other people...I was used to it. I don't...wake up to a snowmobile going by either. If they do put a restriction on time limit, we should follow it. I hope you can keep paths open and let snowmobilers go through. Thank you. ' Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Jan Lash: My name is Jan Lash. I'm on the Park and Rec Commission and one of the things that I thought ' could help clarify. I know that we had a close vote with it being 4 to 3. In the Minutes I'm sure you read my position was that I felt that we were providing a recreational activity for the residents of Chanhassen and that is what our mission is as a Park and Rec Commission. It was a close vote and I don't want to speak for any other ' commissioners but I know that they are here tonight and they may address it themselves but also in the Minutes I think you'll see there was discussion on an annual review of this and it's my understanding, and again I don't want to speak for everyone but it was my understanding that the people who were in opposition to it, were in opposition because of that particular point. It wasn't the general philosophy of the use. It was that particular point that caused them to have the nay vote. And if I'm mistaken, I'd certainly be happy for any of them to come forward and state their vote. ' Mayor Chmiel: Good, thanks Jan. Anyone else? Okay. If not, we'll bring it back to Council and have discussion in regards to this and any questions that might incur that any of the Councilmembers may have. If you would come back to the microphone and address those specific questions that you may be asked. Richard. ' Councilman Wing: Well we've certainly looked at this long enough now for my sake and I sat through the Park and Rec meeting the other night and was able to listen to all those opinions and I think the club agrees that snowmobiles are on their way out. They're certainly not compatible with the city as it grows but the thing that really hit me, and let me make it real clear too that all these letters that came in and the two phone calls I got on this, they weren't lost to me. I don't have a snowmobile. I don't like snowmobiles. To me they're just another motor that burns gas and makes noise and they're the winter time, and I'm going to be insulting because, they're ' the winter time jet skis and we've certainly dealt with those things in the past. But Janet's comments that we have a responsibility to provide recreation for everybody in this city, as long as it's compatible and can be done 21 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 safely, really hit home to me. I think the facts are that snowmobiles exist. Snowmobiling exists. They're here and I don't think it's up to us to just shut them off over night. I think they're going to take care of themselves as we grow and I think this particular request is reasonable. I don't have a problem with the noise because they've toned them down so much. The safety issues, you know we've got a lot of what if s but nobody's showing me any facts and being up on public safety here, we're not having problems. Checking on the Shorewood trail, Deephaven, all the way on out. The real issue isn't access for joggers or walkers in the winter time are because of the snowmobiles. I mean that's, they pack it down and then you can jog and walk on it. The problems they have on the trails has been in the summer between the bikes and the pedestrians because the bikes come tooling along and then the pedestrians are there 2 or 3 abreast so the only conflicts I'm aware of, even with myself, have been bikes and pedestrians in the summer. I have not seen a problem on the Shorewood trail with the snowmobiles because they're very isolated incidents if you will. They're heavy on the weekends and weekdays, week evenings, I just don't see a problem. Limited use in the winter. Snow conditions have to be right. Winters are short so as much as I really weigh with the neighbors and that's how I feel, I feel I really have to side and vote with the Park and Rec Commission to allow this. The question to me becomes what to do to keep this thing reviewed. The public safety issue Scott Harr can handle. If we need patrol out there, he'll get it but I don't think consistently that happens. I like the idea of the speed limit. I think it makes people think. Are they all going to adhere to it? No, but at least there's a limit there that we can kind of keep an eye on. Hours, I'm not sure what reasonable ones are. I don't like to hear those things going by at 1:00 in the morning and to me 11:00 seems to be a reasonable time, if this is a sensitive issue but again, I can leave that to Council. So I guess the big issue to me is not so much is this right or wrong. I think it's a responsibility we have to try this as part of our Park and Rec overall plan. It's the review process and my thinking was, if this was given a 3 year permit with a review at the end of 1 year by Park and Rec, that we can go over safety issues. Go over noise. Go over neighbor complaints and if in fact it's not working, it's time to cut it off and I have no trouble then in good faith saying, we gave it a try. The neighbors are right. This isn't a good deal. On the other hand, that is an isolated area down there. Much more isolated than the Shorewood trail and there are no complaints coming off of that one. So given the fact that this is a little more of an open area, I guess I'm assuming it's going to work better than the Shorewood trail, and that one has been fairly successful so. I support Park and Rec's recommendation with the exception of the issue of hours and how to review this for the best interest of the neighbors. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Colleen. Councilwoman Dockendorf. Well as usual, you eloquently stated my position as well and Jan, I appreciate you coming up and talking. I was going to quote you anyway about the mission. I clearly stated my opinion at the last meeting. Was rather disappointed that we pushed it off because I know Hennepin County wouldn't deal with it but I am glad that the Park and Rec Commission did talk about it again. The issue for me comes down to, are we suburban or are we still small town? And with every subdivision that we see and with every road improvement I fight that. The growth in this city and the realization is we're going to get the point of Eden Prairie where we're going to have to abolish snowmobiling altogether and I'm just not ready for that. I have the same position in regards to hunting. I don't like either of these, hunting or snowmobiling. I don't partake in either activity but I recognize that that's part of this town's heritage and I'm not ready to cut it off yet. One of the problems that, or one of the concerns that I do have is the dual use in terms of allowing snowmobilers and other walkers, skiers, etc to use the trail at the same time. I think the only thing that we can do is post it as a snowmobile trail and people, other people will use it at their own risk. I haven't seen any documented cases of problems coming about with that. No other motorized vehicles allowed. That's already been dealt with. The curfew, again I'm thinking 10:00 to 8:00 at night on a weekday and probably until 11:00 or midnight on the weekend. 40 mile speed limit and annual review I think is a good idea. And again I think we have to realize 22 C is J 7 I City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 that part of our mission is to allow uses for everyone in the community. This will be used 3 to 4 months of the year, at most. That's 1/4 to 1/3 of the year for these uses so I think it's reasonable to continue the use. Or to allow the use. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Michael. Councilman Mason: A lot's been said and quite honestly, I think Mr. Halver stole some of my thunder tonight. Sound is an issue. I don't think that's the only issue. Some notes I jotted down here were rights of individuals versus the rights of the community. Snowmobiling now, past and in the future. Hennepin Parks is an issue but I have a hunch Councilman Senn's going to talk about that so I'm not going to say anything. 20 years ago I was as avid an anti - snowmobiler as I suspect snowmobilers that saw me cross country skiing felt the same way. I know it because we didn't get along. That was 20 years ago. Every, I view the Chanhassen Snowmobile Club as a very responsible organization. I do know some of the members. I still do not snowmobile. I've been on a snowmobile once in my life and I, for some of the same reasons that Councilman Wing has stated. However, I think with more trails, usage has become a lot more responsible. And as a sidelight to that, for people that cross country ski, the skate skiing, I know for a fact doing both, that snowmobile trails are nice to skate ski on. They do much for diagonal stride. In fact they're no good for it but I guess I don't see that as an issue. I think we do have a responsibility in Chanhassen to allow recreational uses for all kinds of recreational use. That doesn't sound right but I think you know what I mean. I am not a snowmobiler and quite honestly it's tough for me to support this because I have some philosophical differences but I think the Chan Snowmobile Club, with ads I've seen and people I've talked to, are doing what they can to be a responsible group of people and I think that is good citizens and as good Council people, that's all we can ask for. Curfew is an issue. I think 10:00 p.m. is too late at night. I said it at the last meeting, I've been chewed out because I'm cross country skiing a half hour after dusk at Carver Park, which 1 still don't understand but those are those rules. I don't know that dawn to dusk is reasonable but I have trouble with 10:00 and 1:00. I'd like to have some sort of discussion with that. I think the year review or however, just so we can maintain some sort of handle on what's going on on the trail, I'd like to see some sort of review. But I agree with what Colleen said. Snowmobiling 10 years from now probably won't be happening in Chanhassen. It will be too big. There will be too many people. But I guess I see that there is, they ought to be able to use that trail for now. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thanks Mike. Mark. Councilman Senn: I don't know, I guess I've gone out and gone down the trail. I think the snowmobilers make some good points and there's good and bad snowmobilers everywhere I'm sure. The neighborhoods make some good points too. I hate to say it but for me really it's an issue that still remains beyond all that, just as I said last time. I think the issue here is Hennepin County to develop a park use plan for this trail and it should be in harmony and consistent. My sense is that the rest of the Council doesn't agree with that and I feel that if we go ahead and pass this, all we're going to do is once again take the pressure off Hennepin County, who I may add I don't think much of anyone holds responsible for much of anything. Because once we take the pressure off, nobody's going to bug them about this either so once again they're just going to side skate out of it and I'd really like to see the trail corridor as a major, I'm going to say regional resource. But in doing that I think it needs a rec use plan to accomplish that and this type of piece meal approach I think really is counter productive to achieving that so if we're going to push this to a vote tonight, I plan on opposing it for that reason because I think it's a piece meal approach. I think the pressure should go back and we should see the regional approach as it was I believe designed to be. Otherwise I guess I would think that we have ownership and control of this little segment of it, which we don't. So that's I guess where I sit. 23 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. In looking at basically what everyone else has said, what always come back to me is the last person and I hope... indicate some of the concerns that I have too with this. One is the speed limit. 40 mph. If that were to be restricted to 20 mph, what does that do as far as snowmobilers are concerned? I know that I live in an area that's in and adjacent to Lake Ann and Lake Lucy and living right on a corner I have snowmobiles going past my home and have had for 17 years, and probably 1 or 2 of my 3 sons at least have used snowmobiles but they had a time restriction that they had to be home as well. So time is another concern that I have. I think everybody should have a certain amount of use with this and I, myself have put up with this for, and our bedroom faces directly to that street side. And if we have had one snowmobile go by, we've had 15 to 20, maybe 25 in a given evening. The 2:00 a.m. and the 3:00 am. sometimes disturbs you a little bit when you're sleeping but with me, you'd probably have to have something fall on the house as well as shake me out of bed. But if I were up, or I decide to get up to look around and see what things are happening, you can hear those but they're not that loud either. In the early or mid to late 70's those things were not really creating that much of a disturbance but still they're there. But I would like to see some changes in the speeds. I'd also like to see the usage during the week to be until 10:00 p.m. And in addition to that I'd like to see that stopped somewhere about 12:00 p.m. on weekends. Enforcement with the times that we're talking and speeds are going to be a problem, and I don't know how we're going to do that and whether we have enough snowmobile members who will do that patrolling within. And I think that's all well and good but the ability to ticket, we can't do that. It has to be a certified police officer. We can't even use our CSO's, if we so choose, because they can't write tickets. They can call for an officer to come but that's about the extent. And I know there are good operators of snowmobiles and there are some that don't take people into consideration when they're traversing through their properties such is happening over on Lake Minnewashta. The only suggestion there is put up a chainlink fence that's 6 feet high and maybe that may deter but they may have cutters to open it up and go through if they've done all the other things that they've done, which I don't agree with. That is private property and private property is you cannot trespass on that. But I do believe that I see the City of Chaska has approved it. The City of Eden Prairie has not approved that portion going through their community. My understanding is if we do allow this, they may take another look at this next year. See whether or not their people could utilize that as well. So with that I would like to bring it back to Council and for us to come up with a position on this and somehow bring into discussion as well the enforcement aspects of this and let it go from there. Now I know that one other thing too. Some have indicated the littering problem and I know the snowmobile club does do that part of it as well in picking up so hopefully that shouldn't happen. If it does, the next time they go down that particular path, they will look at that and take care of that. So with that I would entertain a motion for this proposal and to consider some of the things that have been discussed. Councilwoman Dockendorf. Well, let me take a stab at it. And let me preface it by saying, I really whole- heartedly agree with you Mark except it's not going to get us anywhere as a matter practicality. We can push it off to Hennepin County and they won't do anything with it so for this year it will be foregone. I just don't see that as a viable alternative unfortunately. So I would recommend that we approve the use of snowmobiles on the, let me get it right here. Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route with the conditions that it be limited to 8:00 p.m. on weekdays and 12:00 midnight on weekends. The speed limit maximum 40 mph and we do an annual review to see how it's going. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Before we get a second I'd just like to ask in regards to the speed limit of 40. If that were brought down to 20, and of course how do we police that as well. But if we brought it back down to 20, what's the difference between the decibel ratings at 40 as opposed to 20? And also the 8:00 p.m. on weekends. Councilman Wing: Weekdays. 24 t City 8 Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Mayor Chmiel: Or weekdays, excuse me. ' Councilman Mason: While that information is getting looked up, could we consider, and I know some people are going to, well let me finish. Could we do something with the speed limit around that area where the homes are? And yes I know, let's face it, laws are for honest people. I mean people drive 80 on the freeway but. ' Mayor Chmiel: That's right. And that's why you have locks on your doors. ' Councilman Mason: Right, right. And I wonder if we're talking about speed limits here if it would even be worth it to consider lowering the speed limit in that what, quarter or half mile stretch. Mayor Chmiel: Well that was one of the reasons why I was suggesting lower speeds. Councilman Wing: You know what Scott would say, is it number one enforceable. And number two, if it's a 50 mph road, you can't post it 30. You can post any road you want 25 but if it's a 50 mph road, that's what the traffic's going to go. Mayor Chmiel: I don't know how that applies back to snowmobiles though. ' Councilman Wing: Well I guess if you've got a straight away, it's just an easy place to tool along at 20 mph... Councilman Mason: I think that's true but I know, I bet there are some places that you go the speed limit where other people don't because that's the speed limit and if it would slow traffic down, if it would slow any traffic down around Hesse Farm, maybe that's a legitimate compromise. ' Mayor Chmiel: Have you found that? LeRoy Biteler: Yeah. There's some information, if you'll just distribute those and I'll talk about it. As long as ' I can give you my thoughts. Your question was with regards to the sound decibels at 20 mph versus 40 mph. The best scenario that I can give you I think, if you'll look at this piece right here. See which one I'm holding in front of me? The Shorewood decibel test. Have you got that? Found that. On there it talks about 20 mph, 30 mph and 40 mph. And let's take Sled #5. I'm taking Sled #5 because it seems to be one of the louder ones. ' Yet in 1985, at 20 mph, it's average decibels were 75. At 40 mph it's average decibels were 78. At 30 mph, 76. Between 20 and 30 there's not a whole lot of difference. Again I reiterate, these houses are 150 feet away, not 50 feet away as was this test taken. The other thing that I'm going to reiterate with respect to the speed ' limits. This trail is very straight. There's not curves and winds in it. A snowmobile does make enough noise that if you're walking on that trail, you do see it or hear it coming as opposed to a bicycle, which can be fairly quiet if a bicycle were to roll up behind someone. t Mayor Chmiel: I guess that's another one of my concerns is if people are going to use this for jogging or walking, or even skiing, cross country skiing, I guess my concerns are for those people as well and it just not being termed as a snowmobile trail. And that's why I'm talking the speeds of a little lower miles per hour. ' LeRoy Biteler: Yeah, I kind of knew that's where you were coming from. I can understand that to a point. That's why I mentioned the motor does make enough noise when you're outside so people know you're coming ' when you're on the same trail. From a speed standpoint, there was some discussion as to having a speed limit at one particular place and a speed limit at another particular place. That can be done. A little more difficult I ' 25 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 think to police. A little more difficult for everybody to be certain that it gets understood. That there's two different speed limits and we will be posting it, whatever you decide. As far as the time limit, again a time limit such as 8:00 and 12:00, a little harder to police. I would sooner see you use a carte blanche 11:00 curfew. That is what Chaska has is an 11:00 curfew. Mayor Chmiel: That's a good point. Councilman Wing: Shorewood's 11:00 too. LeRoy Biteler: I'm not sure, Bill. Councilman Wing: It is. Mayor Chmiel: I think to be consistent with that, it would probably be best to hang in with those kinds of numbers. LeRoy Biteler: Enforcement Mr. Mayor, we have had our groomer out on the Shorewood trail late at night. Lights on, stopping people. If we see problems or violations, we have a telephone there. We call up the authorities and we take care of it. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Is that it? Councilman Wing: I wish Scott was here. You know on all these trails, and even the Shorewood one, I'd like to do away with half the signs they've got and simply a great big one that says all snowmobiles yield to the pedestrian traffic or foot traffic so there's a clear differentiation between someone on foot has the right -of -way and the sleds slows down and, how come we've never done that? LeRoy Biteler: How come we've never done that? Councilman Wing: Yeah. Because we don't have a trail... I just think this is a brilliant idea but anyway, for what it's worth. I think that the real issue here with everybody that spoke is if there's foot traffic, they've got right -of -way and they've got priority and it'd be nice if we could have that marked as such. Because then if you have a complaint you can say, I got run down and I didn't appreciate it and here's the rules. Let me get out of that one. It's like a bike going by me too fast and I'm jogging. It irritates me. I think as a jogger I'd like bikes to slow down. Make sure they have my attention and then go by. That's what I'm trying to say here. Jan Lash: Could I make a suggestion? Mayor Chmiel: Sure. Jan Lash: We were faced with this same thing and. Mayor Chmiel: Yes, I read that. Jan Lash: We spent a lot of time trying to figure out the in's and out's. I think the Park and Rec Commission would be happier, at least some of us would be happy to work with members of the snowmobile club and residents and public safety could come together with some guidelines as far as curfew, speeds, signage, 26 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 enforcement, all of that and put together a package that may be a reasonable compromise for everyone and send that onto you to review. Mayor Chmiel: I think it'd be a good idea. But I think at the same time there may be some movement here to ' proceed with what has been brought before us with some stipulations. Jan Lash: Well you could make the decision on the usage and then we could, basically that's what we did. We made the recommendation and then we just figured we'd iron out the details later because that can be very time consuming... Councilwoman Dockendorf. Can I revise my motion? Mayor Chmiel: Certainly can. It wasn't seconded yet so you can. Councilwoman Dockendorf. I would simply move that we allow snowmobiling in the Southwest Light Rail Transit, whatever it was, transit route. Details to be worked out by Park and Rec. However, I would stipulate that we do the annual review. Councilman Wing: Second. Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion? ' Councilman Wing: I'd be interested in Mark's comment about the overview. Todd, if you ever get a chance to just on an administrative memo on the big picture. To me this is a local issue of local control situation. This particular request and what we're doing tonight, but the big picture intrigues me a little bit. Where are they going and what is their intent? Todd Hoffman: Hennepin Parks? Councilman Wing: Yeah. Todd Hoffman: ...their intent was to get to, they don't like to do business in Carver County. Mayor Chmiel: We're well aware of that. Todd Hoffman: ...overall parks program. They have parks with a joint powers agreement in Scott County that they want to get this regional transit because they were in essence their hands were tied. They had to force it down into Carver County to get across into Shakopee... ' Mayor Chmiel: Good. Additional discussion. Michael. Councilman Mason: How will this work with details to be worked out with Public Safety and Park and Rec and ' whoever? Does that then come back to us again? Mayor Chmiel: Would you feel more comfortable if it did come back to us with those stipulations? ' 27 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Councilman Mason: Well I understand what's being said about everyone else has an 11:00 p.m. curfew. I think during the week that's pretty late, and I don't like that. I mean I can go along with everything else here but I, well I said my piece. Councilman Wing: Pick a time. What do you think? What's a reasonable time? Councilman Mason: Well I already said during the week, I don't know. I still like 8:00 but I can see that's not going to fly. 9:00 or 10:00? 1 don't know. I just think that's a late time to be out making noise and I'm not, I feel the same way for parties down the street. I mean there, our noise ordinances says until 10:00 p.m. Mayor Chmiel: Unless you're invited. Councilman Mason: Well okay. Alright. But I'm getting older you know. I'm getting older so I just see the, you know everything else aside here, I see the noise at 11:00 p.m. an issue for people. But other than that I'm. Councilman Wing: Then let's send that direction. That we want it, I mean I'm happy to go along with that. And you stated 8:00 so I think... Councilman Mason: Well that's what I... Councilman Wing: ...acceptable for weekdays. Councilman Mason: Well that is for me but. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, let it come back to Council for review. Councilwoman Dockendorf. Yes, please. Todd Hoffman: Mr. Mayor. This might become somewhat cumbersome in the fact that this recommendation needs to go from the City of Chanhassen to Hennepin Parks. If we forward it to Hennepin Parks without having the stipulations as to speed limit, they might ask the question also. We're not going to review this until you tell us what. Councilman Mason: Well fine, not to exceed 40 speed limits. Will not exceed 40 mph. Todd Hoffman: And then Hennepin Parks will have to make that decision whether or not they're going to grant the... Councilman Wing: And I'm going to suggest midnight on weekends and Friday and Saturday and 10:00 on weekdays. LeRoy Biteler: Could I interject one comment? Mayor Chmiel: Sure. I City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 LeRoy Biteler: The comment that I would like to interject is that we need to make timely decisions so that the ' snow isn't on the ground and the ground isn't frozen and now we have to, number one manufacture signage. Appropriate signage and try to drive stakes into the ground. Councilwoman Dockendorf. Can Park and Rec deal with it at the next meeting? Todd Hoffman: Sure. Councilwoman Dockendorf. Bring it back at that following Council meeting. Councilman Mason: With any luck at all there will be 2 feet of snow on the ground by then. ' Mayor Chmiel: But it still may not be frozen. Councilman Mason: But it won't be frozen, good point. ' Councilman Wing: Did I second Colleen's motion? Mayor Chmiel: Yes you did. Councilman Mason: Does that include the not to exceed 40 mph so we can have Hennepin County take, would you accept that? ' Councilwoman Dockendorf. I will accept that. ' Councilman Mason: Thank you so much. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Would the second accept that? Councilman Wing: He did. Any other discussion? LeRoy Biteler: One last comment. Mayor Chmiel: You keep getting up. Councilman Mason: Don't push your luck. Councilman Wing: Do you want us to pull the motion back? ' LeRoy Biteler: We'd like to get the statements on the map in terms of speed limits and times so when people open a map, they can get that information when they look at this trail. Again, it's a timely issue. That's what I wanted to comment. If we could make some decisions this evening, it would be great. ' Mayor Chmiel: Well if you feel that there's some areas too that should be posted at a lower speed, and specific areas of concern, maybe we can let you work with staff to come up with that as well. Okay, we have a motion on the floor with a second. Any other discussion? 1 29 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the request by the Southwest Metro Trail Association to utilize the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route as a snowmobile trail with a speed limit not to exceed 40 mph, an annual review, and additional details regarding curfews and enforcement to be worked out at the next Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. Mayor Chmiel: Todd, you will get back and let us know too as to what's transpiring on this. Todd Hoffman: We'll forward the action of the City Council to Hennepin Parks and we'll take this back to the Park and Rec Commission... REVIEW RECOMMENDATION FROM THE PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION TO, CONSIDER A 1995 PARK. OPEN SPACE AND TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT REFERENDUM. Mayor Chmiel: I just wanted to mention something before we go into that one, which I think we should probably have a work session on this to take into consideration some of these acquisitions and the referendum. And I think along with that, at that particular work session, I think we should work that out so we can as well have them bring their 1995 goals in with that so we can combine those two things, or maybe even three there might be. All in one ball so we can move from there. So with that Todd, if you'd like to just touch on that. Todd Hoffman: I'll require about 5 minutes... Mr. Mayor, members of the City Council. I would like to just explain on behalf of the folks in the audience how we reached this point and why the Park and Recreation Commission... Over the past few years, ask the Council, the Planning Commission, anyone in this city has seen, we are increasingly more aware that the City of Chanhassen has to be visionary and proactive in the area of open space acquisition and preservation being with all the development that is taking place in the city. A number of lost opportunities for acquisition of open space continue to mount as the pace of development quickens throughout our city. However, the more exciting issue is the number of opportunities remaining. Those are what the Park and Recreation Commission needs to see and to take advantage of. The Park Commission initiated an update of the recreation section of the Comp Plan nearly 2 years ago due to the rapid pace of development in order to assess the city's future in the areas of park, open space, trails and other recreational facilities. Ironically that efforts been put on hold a number of times due to the pace of development reviews which both staff and the commission... However, the commission quickly determined through a detailed study of the vacant lands remaining in Chanhassen, that without some action being taken, the future of our open space system would be jeopardized in the city. We looked at the lessons learned in other communities farther in and we also looked at their victories which other cities have attained over the years as a part of the inspiration. The Commission openly acknowledges that a major land acquisition effort will require the support of the city's residents, the City Council, and other community organizations. It is clear that the commission unanimously advocates a referendum, but they are not positioning themselves to jam it down anybody's throats. On the contrary, the Park Commission and staff stand ready to administer a referendum explaining the present status of development in the city and how the future of parks and recreation stands to benefit or be harmed by that development. Clearly none of the individual groups named, citizens, City Council members, Park and Recreation Commission, staff members, other civic organizations, can accomplish this initiative alone. However, united all those groups can help secure the city's future of the city's natural resources. At this time I'd like to present the City Council with a framed copy of a page from the October 29th, 1969 Chanhassen Maverick newspaper. Appearing on that page is an advertisement from a citizen group advocating a park referendum in 1969 in the amount of $250,000.00 to fund the initial acquisition of portions of Lake Ann Park and to complete other park 30 C I C C� I fl J li C Chaska Police Memo To: Wendy Beltrand From: Greg Schol Date: September 93, 9994 Re: Fall Newsletter Article Winter snows bring the return of snowmobiles which can be a great source of fun for the operators and a great source of aggravation for some others. According to Chaska Police Chief Greg Schol, there has been a progressive increase in the number of snowmobile complaints overthe past five years. In hopes of reducing snowmobile problems, the City has taken action to help. • The Chaska Park Board held a public hearing concerning a designated trail through Chaska and the City Council approved a trail adjacent to Engler Boulevard. In addition, the City Council passed ordinance changes to allow better regulation and enforcement. These changes include: • A curfew of 11 p.m. It is now unlawful for any person to operate a snowmobile within the limits of the City anytime between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m. • A speed limit. No snowmobile may be operated in excess of ten (10) miles per hour on any street nor in excess of twenty (20) miles per hour at any other location within the City. a Restricted operation. Snowmobiles may only be operated to travel by the most direct route from the person's home to the closest designated snowmobile trail or area and then only if travel on the adjacent street or highway right -of -way is allowed under this ordinance. • Must obey police signal to stop. An operator must bring his snowmobile to a stop and must switch off the engine when flagged by a police officer or duly uniformed snowmobile patrol member. • City ordinance and state laws provide for additional restrictions: Some of the most common violations in Chaska include: • Age - Persons must be at least 14 years old to operate on a city street and if under 18 years old, must have a snowmobile safety certificate as well. • Operating on private property or on city park land - It is a violation to drive a snowmobile on private property without permission. Except for designated snowmobile trails, park land, including the trail system is also off limits to snowmobiles. • Operating on prohibited streets and roads - Snowmobiles may not be driven on Highway 41, 11, 17, 117 or Stoughton Avenue except to make a direct 90 degree crossing. Other streets prohibited for operation include all those within one block of Chestnut Street in the downtown business district. ■ Operation on city dikes - Dikes are off limits to snowmobiles. A map of the snowmobile laws and trail maps are available at the Chaska Police Station located in City Hall. „e"if -szZ I City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 ' bed being displaced in the northeast corner of the site shall be improved to provide an entrance feature for the sidewalk. The final design shall be subject to staff review and approval. 17. The sign package must come back to the Planning Commission for approval. ' 18. Either provide stormwater pass - through openings in the bottom of the Perkins' trash enclosure, reduce the size of the enclosure, or move the enclosure west to permit stormwater to flow unimpeded into the storm sewer /catch basin located in the corner of the parking area. 19. Increase common driveway aisle from 25 feet wide to 26 feet wide face to face and align the access onto Target Lane with the existing curb line in the Target parking lot. 20. No window signs will be permitted. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. ' Councilman Wing: Could I just, as a follow up comment, because Mark's really hitting something here that I think we've got to deal with and I'd like staff to take it real seriously. You've got Mark's comments on the ' trash. Kate Aanenson: Yes. Councilman Wing: As I drove out tonight looking at the Abra and the Goodyear, trash is trash. I don't care what you do with it. It's on the highway and it looks terrible and it makes those, it looks like somebody's back yard and I agree with Mark 100 %. I think this is really worth pursuing aggressively. No more of this outdoor, it's simply trash and it really does take away from what we're trying to do with an attractive nature. And also remember that we talked about buildings forward. Parking lots and all the stuff on the other side. I wish now we could redo Abra and Goodyear and definitely put the building's forward and the trash on the back because it really does detract, so I appreciate Mark's comments. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. ' CONSIDER REQUEST OF SOUTHWEST TRAIL ASSOCIATION TO UTILIZE SOUTHWEST, REGIONAL LIGHT RAIL TRAIL ROUTE AS A SNOWMOBILE TRAIL. Public Present: Name Address ' Doug Brown 10 Fox Hollow Drive Brad Blomquist 7141 Derby Drive Guy P. 7521 Chippewa Trail ' Frankie Evanoff 1401 Hesse Farm Road Bill Kullberg Southwest Trail Assn, P.O. Box 34, Navarre David Johanning 931 Butte Court Charles Littfin 7609 Laredo Drive ' Charles Westfahl 6870 Redwing Lane 15 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Kristine Oppman 532 Lyman Rick & Diane Riegert 520 Lyman Ben & Jill Schaefbauer 621 Broken Arrow Drive Rick Halver 10271 Great Plains Blvd. Mark & Deana Hagen 7737 South Shore Drive Jim Andrews Park and Rec Commission Jan Lash Park and Rec Commission Jim Manders Park and Rec Commission Fred Berg Park and Rec Commission Gary Delaney Bluff Creek Inn Todd Hoffman: Mr. Mayor, members of the City Council. To begin with, this is an aerial photo showing the trail corridor as it divides southern Chanhassen. The upper right hand corner you start at Pioneer Trail terminus in Eden Prairie and continue southwest crossing Highway 101, crossing Bluff Creek Drive and eventually terminating at the southern end in the city of Chaska. You got two additional letters from residents this evening at your desk. There's also copies of those letters for the audience on the chair around to my left. In addition to that, Susan and Bruce Breck also called residing at 1180 Hesse Farm Road wishing to voice their opposition to the use of the trail. Some brief background information. On March 22nd of this year LeRoy Biteler, who is in the audience this evening, representing the Chanhassen Snowmobilers and Southwest Metro Trails made a visitor presentation before the Park and Recreation Commission regarding this issue. They did submit a written letter request dated March 14th in this regard and that was presented to the commission. The commission... discussion that evening directed staff to formally place the issue on a future agenda of the Park and Recreation Commission. That review occurred on June 28th of this year. The Commission reviewed that request. The item was published in the Chanhassen Villager, as it has been in subsequent meetings. A neighborhood letter was distributed to residents in the area of the trail and the snowmobile association was notified. That evening the commission reached a split decision on this issue with a 3 to 3 vote. With no alternative available, Chairperson Andrews chose to pass the issue onto the City Council with that split vote. On August 22nd of this year you reviewed this issue for the first time. That discussion resulted in 17 pages of verbatim Minutes. Upon taking public comment and concluding your discussion that evening, you chose to table the request of the Southwest Metro Trail Association awaiting further resolution by the city's Park and Recreation Commission. On September 27th of this year, at the direction of the City Council, the Park and Recreation Commission reviewed this issue for a second time and they took the following action. Commission Huffman moved, Commissioner Roeser seconded to recommend the Chanhassen City Council make the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit Route available to snowmobilers during the winter months. No other motorized vehicles will be allowed. Signage, hours of use, speed limits and other enforcement rules will be worked out with the Department of Public Safety officials, city officials and other pertinent folks pending City Council approval with this recommendation. Commissioners Lash, Meger, Huffman and Roeser were in favor of that motion. Commissioners Berg, Manders and Andrews were opposed. The motion carried with a 4 to 3 vote. Tonight I asked the City Council, in order to bring this nearly 7 month process just one step closer to a resolution, that you render a decision in this regard. As you are aware in the events that a motion in favor of the snowmobilers is forwarded and a formal request from the City of Chanhassen must be, for winter use of the trail must be submitted to Hennepin Parks in order to utilize the section of trail under their jurisdiction. The outright ownership of the entire corridor down to Highway 212 and then slightly beyond is held by the Hennepin County Regional Rail Authority. The ultimate purpose of this corridor is for light rail transit at some point in the future. In the interim Hennepin Parks, Hennepin County Parks, regional park providers, signed on with an agreement with the Rail Authority to utilize the trail down to Bluff Creek. They were at fast going to terminate it at Highway 101 because their real intention was to get south to Shakopee and to travel down to their southern most 16 n I I P� City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 parks at Murphy Hanneran and Cleary Lake Park. However they felt Bluff Creek, where there's wider right -of- way and more subtle grades at the crossing was a better location for the terminus of their section of the trail. They have constructed a parking lot ... trailhead identification. The city's seen the advantage of the trail system and then picked up an agreement with the City of Chanhassen with the City of Chaska and completed the segment from Bluff Creek to Chaska. Now Chaska this fall will continue it at TH 212. It will not cross over the bridge at TH 212 as is the case at TH 101. That bridge will be replaced next year but they will travel north half of Highway 212 at that point and connect with downtown Chaska. So again this request has to go to Hennepin Parks. Hennepin Parks has the authority to say yes or no. Even if the City Council approves the use this evening. And again, Hennepin Parks in their agreement may grant such approval or they ... not. We do have members of the Park and Recreation Commission present in the audience this evening, if you would wish to receive input from them or have questions of them. Otherwise we're looking for a decision from the City Council this evening. Mayor Chmiel; Okay, thank you. Prior to opening this up I just wanted to mention two things. Number one, we have had an opportunity to read all of the information that is contained in these two documents. Secondly, that if there is someone wishing to indicate something new that has not been discussed, we would be more than happy to listen to that presentation. What I'd like to do is to try to limit this to probably at least 3 minutes each to indicate your concerns, one way or the other. And if it's repetition, if you'd please just stay seated unless you feel there's something new, as I mentioned, that you'd like to inject into this. Then feel free to do so. So with that I would like to open the floor for anyone who has something new that we can listen to at this time. Yes. Please state your name and your address and come up to the microphone. Frankie Evanoff: Good evening. My name is Frankie Evanoff. I live at 1401 Hesse Farm Road. I'm right off of Bluff Creek Road. I've been snowmobiling for, since 1969. I've lived in Hesse Farms for 15 years. All of our trails have been taken away and this is just one opportunity for us to get from Point A to Point B. I've snowmobiled elsewhere on railroad beds and it's, we don't go off of them. It's just a way for us safely to get to where we're going. And as far as noise where I live, to be truthful I will never hear that noise. I don't see any other way there possible for some of us in the neighborhood...snowmobile to get to Chanhassen or Chaska with all of the housing developments. So this would be a very easy way and a safe way. As far as the property that goes down to the tracks, I don't know if you've ever walked that railroad bed. Most of those homes are on bluffs. As far as snowmobilers going off that trail and going onto private property ... I can't imagine anybody going off at that point into the neighborhood ... some of the people who have voiced a concern, they live on the other side of the road in this development. Quite a ways away from that railroad bed. They would never hear that noise. Even the 18 wheelers that are coming up Bluff Creek Road, that's more of a noise than these snowmobiles would be. I hear a lot of traffic from that road and that's... traffic so I think that this should go through. I think that the snowmobilers should have a right to use this trail. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else? Gary Delaney: My name is Gary Delaney and my wife and I, Ann, own the Bluff Creek Inn which is just off of Bluff Creek Drive. This afternoon I had a chance to make a few calls to check with some of our neighboring communities and I checked with Eden Prairie to see how they had dealt with this issue and you folks probably well know already that they declined it. Second of all I spoke at length with the Deputy Assistant to the Sheriff of Carver County, Mr. Jim Castleberry and Jim classified the problems in working and trying to make sense out of the existing snowmobile trails throughout Carver County and Chaska, which you probably know he's a City Council person within Chaska also. And from the law enforcement standpoint his quote is, it's a nightmare. He said it's very dangerous. What happens is that it's not the responsible parent that works with their machines 17 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 nicely and correctly but it's later on when the teenage kids frequently get a hold of them and off they start roaring. He referred to it as completely unable to cope with the problems which they have with snowmobiles throughout Carver County. So that led me to check with Scott County, which I did. Scott County, unlike Carver County, has an enforcement police force and two deputy sheriff groups and I'm not sure exactly how it works but they also own snowmobiles and they have organized trails that go from Shakopee to Belle Plain that are well staffed, policed and are maintained. But what we're talking about here is 2 or 4 miles that's kind of isolated that would require, I hope, some kind of policing that we don't have available within Chanhassen since we contract with the County to do this enforcing. And also from out standpoint at the Bluff Creek Inn, we have many guests at all times of the year that are walking that trail and if it's during the winter, what we have found, and ourselves, we walk that trail. If you folks have done it since you've been on that trail since it's been paved, it's marvelous. It's beautiful. It's a major asset to this community. There are snowmobile trails in this community already ... some problem for folks. I think it'd be nice to get a chance for our community to have some ambience with some well groomed ski trails. What Eden Prairie is doing is they're waiting to see if the community asks them to accept the ski trails down and to groom them and they've done, just kind of sit back this first year. What we would be doing is going right into the middle of the system. Chaska, according to what Jim said, would not be in favor of having this motorized traffic on it but there is no parking. I'm sure that there is 1 or 3 people that might have snowmobiles that would love to use it. Well, you would be bringing in trailers with the big snowmobiles on it and a small parking lot that's made for bikers. And that, trying to unload them and then the logistics of thinking that it would only go from sun up to sun down, as I understand that was one of the proposals. I don't know that that would really work so I think it's unenforceable. It would be setting a precedent and as far as I know, it's the only suburban community that has taken one of these abandoned railroad tracks and allowed a portion of it, or all of it to be used for snowmobiles. The Luce Line trail which I think you're all familiar with, and other abandoned railroad tracks throughout the suburban Twin Cities area, do not allow this and there are hundreds of miles of trails that are close by within the outlying areas, the suburban areas. A major one right over here in Scott County. I don't think we need this. I think it's premature to decide to allow it and the trail's only been there a short time and we would like to think that all of us would be able to use it for some peaceful, tranquil uses that the ambience of this community should be fostering rather than trying it into a semi commercial... Appreciate your attention. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone else? Todd, in regard to the city of Chaska. What position has the city taken on that right now? Todd Hoffman: The President, LeRoy can you maybe respond to where they're at. LeRoy Biteler: Yeah, the city of Chaska, both Park and Rec and the City Council have approved. Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. Yes. LeRoy Biteler: I do have some comments. I'm LeRoy Biteler, Chanhassen Snowmobile Club. A couple of things to address Gary Delaney's comments. Scott Harr, and I thought he might be here this evening but I had a discussion with Scott Harr with respect to the potential of policing this trail and other trails in our area simply because the situation with the bike patrol came up that we had this summer. We had a person patrolling our trail systems by bicycle and I also am aware that Carver County has two snowmobiles. I asked Scott Harr if it's possible that this person that's on bicycle might be able to police our trails a few times this winter. He did comment to me, he did get back to me and he said that he had had some discussions with Carver County. I can't name those particular people that he discussed it with because I don't know but he did say that there's a good possibility that we may be able to accomplish some of this kind of policing with that kind of personnel. 18 C City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Also in the past, as I reiterated to you before, we have called Carver County on their snowmobiles and we have been out policing our trails with them in the past. It's been done. As we mentioned, Chaska has approved the railroad beds. There are railroad beds in our community. One that goes between Victoria and Shorewood which we have snowmobiling and walkers on. The other thing that I'd like to address, and this being new information. I have come to find how far or how close some of these houses are to the railroad bed. That seems to have been a question that has come up. How close are they? How far away are they? In looking at the aerial map we were able to determine by scale, that we have one house at approximately 135 feet. We have two houses at 150 feet. And we have one house at 200 feet and the rest of them are at 200 feet or more away from the trail. Without giving you more information, of which you've already received, I want to reiterate a couple things. The testing that's been done on snowmobiles is 50 feet away. At 50 feet away the snowmobile at 40 mph is a decibel of 78. That's machines that are 1980 or newer. Highway traffic at 50 feet is 70 decibels. An automobiles stepping on the gas at 50 feet is 78 decibels. The decibels of the traffic in front of Shorewood City Hall at 50 feet away, 75 decibels. Now these sounds were all taken from out of doors. The point I'm trying to make here is that this snowmobile trail is 3 times the distance away from 50 feet. 50 feet, the homes are 150 feet away, most of them. And their windows are closed so to speak, most of the time in the winter time. The sounds of the snowmobiles on this trail is not an issue. It is going to be less than the sound of the traffic crossing the highway. That's the new point that I wanted to make to you. As snowmobilers, this is a public trail. We pay taxes on this trail system, like the rest of us. There's 462 registered sleds in Zip Code 55317. We feel that they have the right to use that trail in the winter time and this Club will provide the service to the community and those users of snowmobiles on that trail. We're not creating 35W, as some of you make it sound. There's going to be a few users during the week and more users on the weekend. I don't know those percentages. As a matter of fact, there's going to be no sleds on there if there's no snow. Our proposal to you, as we've talked a little bit before and in the letters that I've written. We would like to see a 40 mph speed limit. We'd like to see a curfew during the week at 10:00 and possibly 1:00 on weekends, but that's up for discussion, as I'm sure the rest of this is. We would sign and take care of this trail and maintain it. The fact that we're packing it down may also allow for people to have more of a desire to walk on it. If nobody's maintaining it, I'm not so sure how much they're going to even walk on it. Basically that's all I have to say. You may have some questions of ourselves from previous meetings. I'd be more than happy to answer those. ' Mayor Chmiel: Good, thanks. Let me ask you one question. Have the balance of those easements yet been gotten? ' LeRoy Biteler: It's been difficult to secure the easements on a cross country basis because we had to tell people, well we haven't got a trail yet. We're working on it and we describe the situation that we've been working on for 7 months. Our trail at this point, to access the railroad bed will be down CR 17 all the way to Pioneer Trail. We will take Pioneer Trail eastbound until it crosses the railroad bed. We will pursue our cross country path ' should this be approved and we have contacted some of those homeowners. Or not homeowners, landowners already. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thanks. Anyone else? Councilman Wing: Could I just ask a question on access. Another thing we're working on tonight on Lake ' Minnewashta is what used to be your access off the northwest corner of the lake along the creek. Homeowners and the new development's coming in are, I'm assuming are going to say no to that. Have you got an access, cross country access off that lake or a new one or a different location? 1 19 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 LeRoy Biteler: We are aware of that. We've been spending so much time on this issue, we haven't hit that issue as hard as what we would like to. We're looking at a couple options. As you cross the lake, if you can visualize it as you cross the lake from Lake Minnewashta Park. We hit that reservation area. There's another little finger, I think it's to the north of there where a section of water comes in. We're looking at getting off the lake right there. We're also looking at the possibility of going, coming onto the lake from the park and going directly towards Highway 5. Taking Highway 5 out. Councilman Wing: Okay. That's what I was curious about. LeRoy Biteler: But we realize that we're not going to use that reservation, or that area this winter. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Anyone else? Rick Halver: My name is Rick Halver. I live at 10271 Great Plains Blvd, down close to the trail down there. I've lived in that area for 37 years and I find it real interesting that up until a year and a half ago, nobody paid any attention to this strip of land. Railroad track at all. None. The concerns of noise. Of snowmobiles. It didn't seem to be an issue when they built homes along there with freight trains going by. What's louder, a freight train or a snowmobile? And as recent as a year ago, I was down on that track when it was pieces of broken ties, weeds, engine blocks, nobody cared at all about that strip of land. Suddenly somebody improves it and people are coming out of the woodwork deciding who is going to be able to go on it. That's self serving. It's for everyone, isn't it? It's for everyone in the community and to not allow everyone in the community to use it, assuming there's going to be problems, isn't fair to everyone in the community. If everyone would work in a positive fashion, you could accomplish all sorts of things. If you go to Shakopee and run the state trail, which is an abandoned railroad bed. It runs through Shakopee to Chaska. They walk their dogs. They ride horses. They cross country ski and snowmobile on there altogether. It doesn't seem to be a problem. Suddenly a small group of people come out of the woodwork and decide who's going to be able to use this and who's not. Not everyone rides a bike. Not everyone cross country skis. And not everyone walks. And as a community it's only right for everyone in the community to appease everyone in the community to have an equal right. If there's a problem down the road, you deal with the problem as it comes up. But to disallow it, assuming there's going to be a problem, just isn't a positive move for everyone in the community. And I just can't imagine that this would even be an issue until it's tried because you never get anywhere unless you try. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Rick. Anyone else? Ken Durr: My name is Ken Durr. I have property on the northwest corner of Lake Minnewashta. The gentlemen here was referring to the reservation and I didn't know this subject was going to be on the agenda tonight. As long as it is, I'd like to make a couple of comments about the misuse of property by snowmobilers, particularly on the northwest side of the lake. I've owned property there for a number of years. I own the reservation that has been referred to tonight with snowmobiles have been exiting Lake Minnewashta for a number of years. We have put up no trespassing signs. We put up no snowmobile signs. We even fell a tree across the trail and put up signs. Some came with chainsaws and cut the tree away and removed it and continued to use it. We put haybales across. They've been removed. There's been complete disregard of private property. If that is the way that snowmobilers are going to use properties in this city, I think it's something that should not be considered because I tried for several years to control snowmobilers on my property to no avail. And I think there's complete disregard for private property. I had discussions with one of the people several years ago who indicated he was the Chairman or the some capacity in charge of snowmobilers asking if they could use that property. I said, no. From a liability standpoint, and just the standpoint of bringing FIE City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 people out there to see the property, we didn't want that activity on it. The activity never diminished. It continued just as though never was ever discussed. Nothing ever said. Signs removed. Complete disregard for ' property. So I hope that you people will control what is done, at least on my property, 20 acres of land along the shore of Minnewashta that has been misused over the years. ' Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Ken. Anyone else? Jill Schaefbauer: My name is Jill Schaefbauer and I live at 621 Broken Arrow Drive, and I agree with you sir ' snowmobilers should not trespass on people's property. My husband and I, we like to bike ride in the summer. Snowmobile in the winter and we're feeling restricted. There's nowhere to go. The paths are being blocked off. Even right in Chanhassen on the main road by Target. There were signs went up last winter saying we weren't allowed to go that way. We had to find another route to get around to get to where we want to go. I feel we should open this path up and we shouldn't restrict people... I don't feel that snowmobilers should get a bad rap. ...into this community because they're hungry. I mean they drive in to the town and they want to eat. Also last winter we experienced in Excelsior on the lake, somebody had a heart attack when they were ice fishing and the ' cops were asking, they pulled my husband and I aside and said, can you please stay here and be available... Snowmobilers help police. They help the ambulance. They help the fire department. We're not here to hinder people and as far as noise levels. I lived in an apartment right next to the railroad tracks... I did not wake up in the middle of the night when a train went by. Other people ... I was used to it. I don't ... wake up to a ' snowmobile going by either. If they do put a restriction on time limit, we should follow it. I hope you can keep paths open and let snowmobilers go through. Thank you. ' Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Jan Lash: My name is Jan Lash. I'm on the Park and Rec Commission and one of the things that I thought could help clarify. I know that we had a close vote with it being 4 to 3. In the Minutes I'm sure you read my position was that I felt that we were providing a recreational activity for the residents of Chanhassen and that is what our mission is as a Park and Rec Commission. It was a close vote and I don't want to speak for any other commissioners but I know that they are here tonight and they may address it themselves but also in the Minutes ' I think you'll see there was discussion on an annual review of this and it's my understanding, and again I don't want to speak for everyone but it was my understanding that the people who were in opposition to it, were in opposition because of that particular point. It wasn't the general philosophy of the use. It was that particular point that caused them to have the nay vote. And if I'm mistaken, I'd certainly be happy for any of them to come forward and state their vote. ' Mayor Chmiel: Good, thanks Jan. Anyone else? Okay. If not, we'll bring it back to Council and have discussion in regards to this and any questions that might incur that any of the Councilmembers may have. If you would come back to the microphone and address those specific questions that you may be asked. Richard. Councilman Wing: Well we've certainly looked at this long enough now for my sake and I sat through the Park and Rec meeting the other night and was able to listen to all those opinions and I think the club agrees that snowmobiles are on their way out. They're certainly not compatible with the city as it grows but the thing that ' really hit me, and let me make it real clear too that all these letters that came in and the two phone calls I got on this, they weren't lost to me. I don't have a snowmobile. I don't like snowmobiles. To me they're just another motor that burns gas and makes noise and they're the winter time, and I'm going to be insulting because, they're the winter time jet skis and we've certainly dealt with those things in the past. But Janet's comments that we ' have a responsibility to provide recreation for everybody in this city, as long as it's compatible and can be done 1 21 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 safely, really hit home to me. I think the facts are that snowmobiles exist. Snowmobiling exists. They're here and I don't think it's up to us to just shut them off over night. I think they're going to take care of themselves as we grow and I think this particular request is reasonable. I don't have a problem with the noise because they've toned them down so much. The safety issues, you know we've got a lot of what if's but nobody's showing me any facts and being up on public safety here, we're not having problems. Checking on the Shorewood trail, Deephaven, all the way on out. The real issue isn't access for joggers or walkers in the winter time are because of the snowmobiles. I mean that's, they pack it down and then you can jog and walk on it. The problems they have on the trails has been in the summer between the bikes and the pedestrians because the bikes come tooling along and then the pedestrians are there 2 or 3 abreast so the only conflicts I'm aware of, even with myself, have been bikes and pedestrians in the summer. I have not seen a problem on the Shorewood trail with the snowmobiles because they're very isolated incidents if you will. They're heavy on the weekends and weekdays, week evenings, I just don't see a problem. Limited use in the winter. Snow conditions have to be right. Winters are short so as much as I really weigh with the neighbors and that's how I feel, I feel I really have to side and vote with the Park and Rec Commission to allow this. The question to me becomes what to do to keep this thing reviewed. The public safety issue Scott Harr can handle. If we need patrol out there, he'll get it but I don't think consistently that happens. I like the idea of the speed limit. I think it makes people think. Are they all going to adhere to it? No, but at least there's a limit there that we can kind of keep an eye on. Hours, I'm not sure what reasonable ones are. I don't like to hear those things going by at 1:00 in the morning and to me 11:00 seems to be a reasonable time, if this is a sensitive issue but again, I can leave that to Council. So I guess the big issue to me is not so much is this right or wrong. I think it's a responsibility we have to try this as part of our Park and Rec overall plan. It's the review process and my thinking was, if this was given a 3 year permit with a review at the end of 1 year by Park and Rec, that we can go over safety issues. Go over noise. Go over neighbor complaints and if in fact it's not working, it's time to cut it off and I have no trouble then in good faith saying, we gave it a try. The neighbors are right. This isn't a good deal. On the other hand, that is an isolated area down there. Much more isolated than the Shorewood trail and there are no complaints coming off of that one. So given the fact that this is a little more of an open area, I guess I'm assuming it's going to work better than the Shorewood trail, and that one has been fairly successful so. I support Park and Rec's recommendation with the exception of the issue of hours and how to review this for the best interest of the neighbors. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Colleen. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well as usual, you eloquently stated my position as well and Jan, I appreciate you coming up and talking. I was going to quote you anyway about the mission. I clearly stated my opinion at the last meeting. Was rather disappointed that we pushed it off because I know Hennepin County wouldn't deal with it but I am glad that the Park and Rec Commission did talk about it again. The issue for me comes down to, are we suburban or are we still small town? And with every subdivision that we see and with every road improvement I fight that. The growth in this city and the realization is we're going to get the point of Eden Prairie where we're going to have to abolish snowmobiling altogether and I'm just not ready for that. I have the same position in regards to hunting. I don't like either of these, hunting or snowmobiling. I don't partake in either activity but I recognize that that's part of this town's heritage and I'm not ready to cut it off yet. One of the problems that, or one of the concerns that I do have is the dual use in terms of allowing snowmobilers and other walkers, skiers, etc to use the trail at the same time. I think the only thing that we can do is post it as a snowmobile trail and people, other people will use it at their own risk. I haven't seen any documented cases of problems coming about with that. No other motorized vehicles allowed. That's already been dealt with. The curfew, again I'm thinking 10:00 to 8:00 at night on a weekday and probably until 11:00 or midnight on the weekend. 40 mile speed limit and annual review I think is a good idea. And again I think we have to realize 22 I n City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 that part of our mission is to allow uses for everyone in the community. This will be used 3 to 4 months of the year, at most. That's 1/4 to 1/3 of the year for these uses so I think it's reasonable to continue the use. Or to allow the use. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Michael. Councilman Mason: A lot's been said and quite honestly, I think Mr. Halver stole some of my thunder tonight. Sound is an issue. I don't think that's the only issue. Some notes I jotted down here were rights of individuals versus the rights of the community. Snowmobiling now, past and in the future. Hennepin Parks is an issue but I have a hunch Councilman Senn's going to talk about that so I'm not going to say anything. 20 years ago I was as avid an anti - snowmobiler as I suspect snowmobilers that saw me cross country skiing felt the same way. I know it because we didn't get along. That was 20 years ago. Every, I view the Chanhassen Snowmobile Club as a very responsible organization. I do know some of the members. I still do not snowmobile. I've been on a snowmobile once in my life and I, for some of the same reasons that Councilman Wing has stated. However, I think with more trails, usage has become a lot more responsible. And as a sidelight to that, for people that cross country ski, the skate skiing, I know for a fact doing both, that snowmobile trails are nice to skate ski on. They do much for diagonal stride. In fact they're no good for it but I guess I don't see that as an issue. I think we do have a responsibility in Chanhassen to allow recreational uses for all kinds of recreational use. That doesn't sound right but I think you know what I mean. I am not a snowmobiler and quite honestly it's tough for me to support this because I have some philosophical differences but I think the Chan Snowmobile Club, with ads I've seen and people I've talked to, are doing what they can to be a responsible group of people and I think that is good citizens and as good Council people, that's all we can ask for. Curfew is an issue. I think 10:00 p.m. is too late at night. I said it at the last meeting, I've been chewed out because I'm cross country skiing a half hour after dusk at Carver Park, which I still don't understand but those are those rules. I don't know that dawn to dusk is reasonable but I have trouble with 10:00 and 1:00. I'd like to have some sort of discussion with that. I think the year review or however, just so we can maintain some sort of handle on what's going on on the trail, I'd like to see some sort of review. But I agree with what Colleen said. Snowmobiling 10 years from now probably won't be happening in Chanhassen. It will be too big. There will be too many people. But I guess I see that there is, they ought to be able to use that trail for now. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thanks Mike. Mark. Councilman Senn: I don't know, I guess I've gone out and gone down the trail. I think the snowmobilers make some good points and there's good and bad snowmobilers everywhere I'm sure. The neighborhoods make some good points too. I hate to say it but for me really it's an issue that still remains beyond all that, just as I said last time. I think the issue here is Hennepin County to develop a park use plan for this trail and it should be in harmony and consistent. My sense is that the rest of the Council doesn't agree with that and I feel that if we go ahead and pass this, all we're going to do is once again take the pressure off Hennepin County, who I may add I don't think much of anyone holds responsible for much of anything. Because once we take the pressure off, nobody's going to bug them about this either so once again they're just going to side skate out of it and I'd really like to see the trail corridor as a major, I'm going to say regional resource. But in doing that I think it needs a rec use plan to accomplish that and this type of piece meal approach I think really is counter productive to achieving that so if we're going to push this to a vote tonight, I plan on opposing it for that reason because I think it's a piece meal approach. I think the pressure should go back and we should see the regional approach as it was I believe designed to be. Otherwise I guess I would think that we have ownership and control of this little segment of it, which we don't. So that's I guess where I sit. 23 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. In looking at basically what everyone else has said, what always come back to me is the last person and I hope... indicate some of the concerns that I have too with this. One is the speed limit. 40 mph. If that were to be restricted to 20 mph, what does that do as far as snowmobilers are concerned? I know that I live in an area that's in and adjacent to Lake Ann and Lake Lucy and living right on a corner I have snowmobiles going past my home and have had for 17 years, and probably 1 or 2 of my 3 sons at least have used snowmobiles but they had a time restriction that they had to be home as well. So time is another concern that I have. I think everybody should have a certain amount of use with this and I, myself have put up with this for, and our bedroom faces directly to that street side. And if we have had one snowmobile go by, we've had 15 to 20, maybe 25 in a given evening. The 2:00 a.m. and the 3:00 a.m. sometimes disturbs you a little bit when you're sleeping but with me, you'd probably have to have something fall on the house as well as shake me out of bed. But if I were up, or I decide to get up to look around and see what things are happening, you can hear those but they're not that loud either. In the early or mid to late 70's those things were not really creating that much of a disturbance but still they're there. But I would like to see some changes in the speeds. I'd also like to see the usage during the week to be until 10:00 p.m. And in addition to that I'd like to see that stopped somewhere about 12:00 p.m. on weekends. Enforcement with the times that we're talking and speeds are going to be a problem, and I don't know how we're going to do that and whether we have enough snowmobile members who will do that patrolling within. And I think that's all well and good but the ability to ticket, we can't do that. It has to be a certified police officer. We can't even use our CSO's, if we so choose, because they can't write tickets. They can call for an officer to come but that's about the extent. And I know there are good operators of snowmobiles and there are some that don't take people into consideration when they're traversing through their properties such is happening over on Lake Minnewashta. The only suggestion there is put up a chainlink fence that's 6 feet high and maybe that may deter but they may have cutters to open it up and go through if they've done all the other things that they've done, which I don't agree with. That is private property and private property is you cannot trespass on that. But I do believe that I see the City of Chaska has approved it. The City of Eden Prairie has not approved that portion going through their community. My understanding is if we do allow this, they may take another look at this next year. See whether or not their people could utilize that as well. So with that I would like to bring it back to Council and for us to come up with a position on this and somehow bring into discussion as well the enforcement aspects of this and let it go from there. Now I know that one other thing too. Some have indicated the littering problem and I know the snowmobile club does do that part of it as well in picking up so hopefully that shouldn't happen. If it does, the next time they go down that particular path, they will look at that and take care of that. So with that I would entertain a motion for this proposal and to consider some of the things that have been discussed. Councilwoman Dockendorf. Well, let me take a stab at it. And let me preface it by saying, I really whole- heartedly agree with you Mark except it's not going to get us anywhere as a matter practicality. We can push it off to Hennepin County and they won't do anything with it so for this year it will be foregone. I just don't see that as a viable alternative unfortunately. So I would recommend that we approve the use of snowmobiles on the, let me get it right here. Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route with the conditions that it be limited to 8:00 p.m. on weekdays and 12:00 midnight on weekends. The speed limit maximum 40 mph and we do an annual review to see how it's going. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Before we get a second I'd just like to ask in regards to the speed limit of 40. If that were brought down to 20, and of course how do we police that as well. But if we brought it back down to 20, what's the difference between the decibel ratings at 40 as opposed to 20? And also the 8:00 p.m. on weekends. Councilman Wing: Weekdays. 24 I City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 ' Mayor Chmiel: Or weekdays, excuse me. ' Councilman Mason: While that information is getting looked up, could we consider, and I know some people are going to, well let me finish. Could we do something with the speed limit around that area where the homes are? And yes I know, let's face it, laws are for honest people. I mean people drive 80 on the freeway but. ' Mayor Chmiel: That's right. And that's why you have locks on your doors. Councilman Mason: Right, right. And I wonder if we're talking about speed limits here if it would even be worth it to consider lowering the speed limit in that what, quarter or half mile stretch. Mayor Chmiel: Well that was one of the reasons why I was suggesting lower speeds. ' Councilman Wing: You know what Scott would say, is it number one enforceable. And number two, if it's a 50 mph road, you can't post it 30. You can post any road you want 25 but if it's a 50 mph road, that's what the ' traffic's going to go. Mayor Chmiel: I don't know how that applies back to snowmobiles though. ' Councilman Wing: Well I guess if you've got a straight away, it's just an easy place to tool along at 20 mph... Councilman Mason: I think that's true but I know, I bet there are some places that you go the speed limit where ' other people don't because that's the speed limit and if it would slow traffic down, if it would slow any traffic down around Hesse Farm, maybe that's a legitimate compromise. ' Mayor Chmiel: Have you found that? LeRoy Biteler: Yeah. There's some information, if you'll just distribute those and I'll talk about it. As long as I can give you my thoughts. Your question was with regards to the sound decibels at 20 mph versus 40 mph. ' The best scenario that I can give you I think, if you'll look at this piece right here. See which one I'm holding in front of me? The Shorewood decibel test. Have you got that? Found that. On there it talks about 20 mph, 30 mph and 40 mph. And let's take Sled #5. I'm taking Sled #5 because it seems to be one of the louder ones. ' Yet in 1985, at 20 mph, it's average decibels were 75. At 40 mph it's average decibels were 78. At 30 mph, 76. Between 20 and 30 there's not a whole lot of difference. Again I reiterate, these houses are 150 feet away, not 50 feet away as was this test taken. The other thing that I'm going to reiterate with respect to the speed limits. This trail is very straight. There's not curves and winds in it. A snowmobile does make enough noise ' that if you're walking on that trail, you do see it or hear it coming as opposed to a bicycle, which can be fairly quiet if a bicycle were to roll up behind someone. ' Mayor Chmiel: I guess that's another one of my concerns is if people are going to use this for jogging or walking, or even skiing, cross country skiing, I guess my concerns are for those people as well and it just not being termed as a snowmobile trail. And that's why I'm talking the speeds of a little lower miles per hour. ' LeRoy Biteler: Yeah, I kind of knew that's where you were coming from. I can understand that to a point. That's why I mentioned the motor does make enough noise when you're outside so people know you're coming when you're on the same trail. From a speed standpoint, there was some discussion as to having a speed limit at ' one particular place and a speed limit at another particular place. That can be done. A little more difficult I C 25 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 think to police. A little more difficult for everybody to be certain that it gets understood. That there's two different speed limits and we will be posting it, whatever you decide. As far as the time limit, again a time limit such as 8:00 and 12:00, a little harder to police. I would sooner see you use a carte blanche 11:00 curfew. That is what Chaska has is an 11:00 curfew. Mayor Chmiel: That's a good point. Councilman Wing: Shorewood's 11:00 too. LeRoy Biteler: I'm not sure, Bill. Councilman Wing: It is. Mayor Chmiel: I think to be consistent with that, it would probably be best to hang in with those kinds of numbers. LeRoy Biteler: Enforcement Mr. Mayor, we have had our groomer out on the Shorewood trail late at night. Lights on, stopping people. If we see problems or violations, we have a telephone there. We call up the authorities and we take care of it. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Is that it? Councilman Wing: I wish Scott was here. You know on all these trails, and even the Shorewood one, I'd like to do away with half the signs they've got and simply a great big one that says all snowmobiles yield to the pedestrian traffic or foot traffic so there's a clear differentiation between someone on foot has the right -of -way and the sleds slows down and, how come we've never done that? LeRoy Biteler: How come we've never done that? Councilman Wing: Yeah. Because we don't have a trail... I just think this is a brilliant idea but anyway, for what it's worth. I think that the real issue here with everybody that spoke is if there's foot traffic, they've got right -of -way and they've got priority and it'd be nice if we could have that marked as such. Because then if you have a complaint you can say, I got run down and I didn't appreciate it and here's the rules. Let me get out of that one. It's like a bike going by me too fast and I'm jogging. It irritates me. I think as a jogger I'd like bikes to slow down. Make sure they have my attention and then go by. That's what I'm trying to say here. Jan Lash: Could I make a suggestion? Mayor Chmiel: Sure. Jan Lash: We were faced with this same thing and. Mayor Chmiel: Yes, I read that. Jan Lash: We spent a lot of time trying to figure out the in's and out's. I think the Park and Rec Commission would be happier, at least some of us would be happy to work with members of the snowmobile club and residents and public safety could come together with some guidelines as far as curfew, speeds, signage, Orel r C P G' City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 enforcement, all of that and put together a package that may be a reasonable compromise for everyone and send that onto you to review. Mayor Chmiel: I think it'd be a good idea. But I think at the same time there may be some movement here to proceed with what has been brought before us with some stipulations. Jan Lash: Well you could make the decision on the usage and then we could, basically that's what we did. We made the recommendation and then we just figured we'd iron out the details later because that can be very time consuming... Councilwoman Dockendorf: Can I revise my motion? Mayor Chmiel: Certainly can. It wasn't seconded yet so you can. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I would simply move that we allow snowmobiling in the Southwest Light Rail Transit, whatever it was, transit route. Details to be worked out by Park and Rec. However, I would stipulate that we do the annual review. Councilman Wing: Second. Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion? Councilman Wing: I'd be interested in Mark's comment about the overview. Todd, if you ever get a chance to just on an administrative memo on the big picture. To me this is a local issue of local control situation. This particular request and what we're doing tonight, but the big picture intrigues me a little bit. Where are they going and what is their intent? Todd Hoffman: Hennepin Parks? Councilman Wing: Yeah. Todd Hoffman: ...their intent was to get to, they don't like to do business in Carver County. ' Mayor Chmiel: We're well aware of that. Todd Hoffman: ...overall parks program. They have parks with a joint powers agreement in Scott County that ' they want to get this regional transit because they were in essence their hands were tied. They had to force it down into Carver County to get across into Shakopee... ' Mayor Chmiel: Good. Additional discussion. Michael. Councilman Mason: How will this work with details to be worked out with Public Safety and Park and Rec and ' whoever? Does that then come back to us again? Mayor Chmiel: Would you feel more comfortable if it did come back to us with those stipulations? 1 27 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Councilman Mason: Well I understand what's being said about everyone else has an 11:00 p.m. curfew. I think during the week that's pretty late, and I don't like that. I mean I can go along with everything else here but I, well I said my piece. Councilman Wing: Pick a time. What do you think? What's a reasonable time? Councilman Mason: Well I already said during the week, I don't know. I still like 8:00 but I can see that's not going to fly. 9:00 or 10:00? 1 don't know. I just think that's a late time to be out making noise and I'm not, I feel the same way for parties down the street. I mean there, our noise ordinances says until 10:00 p.m. Mayor Chmiel: Unless you're invited. Councilman Mason: Well okay. Alright. But I'm getting older you know. I'm getting older so I just see the, you know everything else aside here, I see the noise at 11:00 p.m. an issue for people. But other than that I'm. Councilman Wing: Then let's send that direction. That we want it, I mean I'm happy to go along with that. And you stated 8:00 so I think... Councilman Mason: Well that's what I... Councilman Wing: ...acceptable for weekdays. Councilman Mason: Well that is for me but. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, let it come back to Council for review. Councilwoman Dockendorf. Yes, please. Todd Hoffman: Mr. Mayor. This might become somewhat cumbersome in the fact that this recommendation needs to go from the City of Chanhassen to Hennepin Parks. If we forward it to Hennepin Parks without having the stipulations as to speed limit, they might ask the question also. We're not going to review this until you tell us what. Councilman Mason: Well fine, not to exceed 40 speed limits. Will not exceed 40 mph. Todd Hoffman: And then Hennepin Parks will have to make that decision whether or not they're going to grant the... Councilman Wing: And I'm going to suggest midnight on weekends and Friday and Saturday and 10:00 on weekdays. LeRoy Biteler: Could I interject one comment? Mayor Chmiel: Sure. W . ' City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 ' LeRoy Biteler: The comment that I would like to interject is that we need to make timely decisions so that the snow isn't on the ground and the ground isn't frozen and now we have to, number one manufacture signage. ' Appropriate signage and try to drive stakes into the ground. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Can Park and Rec deal with it at the next meeting? ' Todd Hoffman: Sure. Councilwoman Dockendorf. Bring it back at that following Council meeting. ' Councilman Mason: With any luck at all there will be 2 feet of snow on the ground by then. ' Mayor Chmiel: But it still may not be frozen. Councilman Mason: But it won't be frozen, good point. ' Councilman Wing: Did I second Colleen's motion? ' Mayor Chmiel: Yes you did. Councilman Mason: Does that include the not to exceed 40 mph so we can have Hennepin County take, would you accept that? Councilwoman Dockendorf. I will accept that. ' Councilman Mason: Thank you so much. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Would the second accept that? Councilman Wing: He did. Any other discussion? LeRoy Biteler: One last comment. Mayor Chmiel: You keep getting up. ' Councilman Mason: Don't push your luck. Councilman Wing: Do you want us to pull the motion back? ' LeRoy Biteler: We'd like to get the statements on the map in terms of speed limits and times so when people open a map, they can get that information when they look at this trail. Again, it's a timely issue. That's what I wanted to comment. If we could make some decisions this evening, it would be great. ' Mayor Chmiel: Well if you feel that there's some areas too that should be posted at a lower speed, and specific areas of concern, maybe we can let you work with staff to come up with that as well. Okay, we have a motion on the floor with a second. Any other discussion? 1 29 rl City Council Meeting - October 10, 1994 Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the request by the Southwest Metro Trail Association to utilize the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route as a snowmobile trail with a speed limit not to exceed 40 mph, an annual review, and additional details regarding curfews and enforcement to be worked out at the next Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. Mayor Chmiel: Todd, you will get back and let us know too as to what's transpiring on this. Todd Hoffman: We'll forward the action of the City Council to Hennepin Parks and we'll take this back to the Park and Rec Commission... REVIEW RECOMMENDATION FROM THE PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION TO CONSIDER A 1995 PARK. OPEN SPACE AND TRAIL ACOUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT REFERENDUM. Mayor Chmiel: I just wanted to mention something before we go into that one, which I think we should probably have a work session on this to take into consideration some of these acquisitions and the referendum. And I think along with that, at that particular work session, I think we should work that out so we can as well have them bring their 1995 goals in with that so we can combine those two things, or maybe even three there might be. All in one ball so we can move from there. So with that Todd, if you'd like to just touch on that. Todd Hoffman: I'll require about 5 minutes... Mr. Mayor, members of the City Council. I would like to just explain on behalf of the folks in the audience how we reached this point and why the Park and Recreation Commission... Over the past few years, ask the Council, the Planning Commission, anyone in this city has seen, we are increasingly more aware that the City of Chanhassen has to be visionary and proactive in the area of open space acquisition and preservation being with all the development that is taking place in the city. A number of lost opportunities for acquisition of open space continue to mount as the pace of development quickens throughout our city. However, the more exciting issue is the number of opportunities remaining. Those are what the Park and Recreation Commission needs to see and to take advantage of. The Park Commission initiated an update of the recreation section of the Comp Plan nearly 2 years ago due to the rapid pace of development in order to assess the city's future in the areas of park, open space, trails and other recreational facilities. Ironically that efforts been put on hold a number of times due to the pace of development reviews which both staff and the commission... However, the commission quickly determined through a detailed study of the vacant lands remaining in Chanhassen, that without some action being taken, the future of our open space system would be jeopardized in the city. We looked at the lessons learned in other communities farther in and we also looked at their victories which other cities have attained over the years as a part of the inspiration. The Commission openly acknowledges that a major land acquisition effort will require the support of the city's residents, the City Council, and other community organizations. It is clear that the commission unanimously advocates a referendum, but they are not positioning themselves to jam it down anybody's throats. On the contrary, the Park Commission and staff stand ready to administer a referendum explaining the present status of development in the city and how the future of parks and recreation stands to benefit or be harmed by that development. Clearly none of the individual groups named, citizens, City Council members, Park and Recreation Commission, staff members, other civic organizations, can accomplish this initiative alone. However, united all those groups can help secure the city's future of the city's natural resources. At this time I'd like to present the City Council with a framed copy of a page from the October 29th, 1969 Chanhassen Maverick newspaper. Appearing on that page is an advertisement from a citizen group advocating a park referendum in 1969 in the amount of $250,000.00 to fund the initial acquisition of portions of Lake Ann Park and to complete other park 30