C Request Paintball PermitCIT OF
CHAN SEN
7700 Market Boulevard
PO Box 147
Chanhassen, MN 55317
Administration
Phone: 952.227.1100
Fax: 952.227.1110
Building Inspections
Phone: 952.227.1180
Fax: 952.227.1190
Engineering
Phone: 952.227.1160
Fax: 952.227.1170
Finance
Phone: 952.227.1140
Fax: 952.227.1110
Park & Recreation
Phone: 952.227.1120
Fax: 952.227.1110
Recreation Center
2310 Coulter Boulevard
Phone: 952.227.1400
Fax: 952.227.1404
Planning &
Natural Resources
Phone: 952.227.1130
Fax: 952.227.1110
Public Works
1591 Park Road
Phone: 952.227.1300
Fax: 952.227.1310
Senior Center
Phone: 952.227.1125
Fax: 952.227.1110
Web Site
www.ci.chanhassen.mn.us
MEMORANDUM
TO:
FROM:
Todd Gerhardt, City Manager
Todd Hoffman, Director of Parks and Recreation
DATE: August 4, 2003
SUB J:
Citizen Request to Permit Paintball within the City of Chanhassen
On May 28, 2003, the Park and Recreation Commission held a community open
house. The "hot topic" of the evening turned out to be paintball, a simulated
combat game utilizing CO2 powered guns referred to as "markers" and paintballs
as ammunition. The basic goal of any paintball game is to fire paintballs at your
opponents in an attempt to hit or mark them before you get hit. This activity is
played by adults and children, but has gained significant popularity among
young boys.
Paintball is not permitted within the City. This fact, however, has not kept the
activity from becoming quite widespread within our borders. In May, a resident
called to report a paintball "battlefield" situated within a city park preserve. The
resident did not feel that it was appropriate for games utilizing high powered
simulated weapons to be held in a public park. Staff responded to the site and
discovered a fairly elaborate arrangement of battle stations constructed of brush,
logs, and plywood. A reporter from the Villager newspaper wrote an article about
this "battlefield" and the game of paintball that appeared in the May 15, 2003
edition.
Summary minutes from the May 28th community open house are attached.
Residents in attendance asked that the city investigate a means by which paintball
can become a permitted activity within the city. It is staff's position that paintball
is not an appropriate activity to be carried out on public park land. Statewide and
nationwide the demand for paintball recreation areas is being filled by the private
sector. Permitting paintball on private land within the City may be an acceptable
alternative to using park property. This action would require an amendment to the
firearm section of the City Code.
The City of Chanhassen. A growing community with clean lakes, quality schools, a charming downtown, thriving businesses, winding trails, and beautiful parks. A great place to live, work, and play.
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
MAY 28, 2003
Acting Chair Spizale called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Amy O'Shea, Jack Spizale, Paula Atkins, Susan Robinson and Glenn
Stolar (Rod Franks arrived late to the meeting.)
MEMBERS ABSENT: Tom Kelly
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Superintendent
PUBLIC PRESENT:
Kent Ludford
Laura, Stephen & Paul Graves
Joni Nelson
Grant & Tim Moore
Jim Manders
Melissa Gilman
Jeff & Peter Fliss
Mike, Connor, Ryan & Linda Howe
Clay Muhlenhake
Tyler Farrell
Jason & Barbara Kayati
8615 Valley View Court
8634 Valley View Court
8610 Valley View Court
1812 Valley Ridge Trail So.
6791 Chaparral Lane
Chanhassen Villager
8710 Osprey Lane
2169 Stone Creek Drive
8040 Erie Avenue
2243 Boulder Road
8715 Valley View Place
APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
Stolar: Just a couple things on, I guess it goes under presentations. I should present from the
City Council last night. I was at the meeting, so if we want to add that. And then also, I was
wondering Todd maybe you could help us. Based on the meeting last night, do we want to have
at least an initial discussion on the conceal and carry law impact? Oh, you probably had gone by
then.
Hoffman: Yep. Certainly you can.
Stolar: I don't expect any action but at least to start the discussion. The fire chief discussed it in
his presentation.
Hoffman: Okay.
Stolar: Would that be administrative item e? 5(e)?
Hoffman: Actually it would be a commission member presentation to place it on a future agenda.
Stolar: Okay.
Spizale: Okay, anybody else?
Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
COMMUNITY OPEN MICROPHONE OPEN HOUSE.
Spizale: Right now let's open up to the audience. If anybody has, would like to come up to the
podium. State your name and address and what you' ve got to say.
Hoffman: First one's always the toughest.
Spizale: I see a lot of people ready to get up. Here we go.
Paul Graves: Hi. My name's Paul Graves. I just wanted to, 8634 Valley View Court in
Chanhassen. I wanted to address the paint ball situation that was addressed in the newspaper, in
the Chan Villager a couple weeks ago and just simply would like to just kind of state our thoughts
on that. We were playing paint ball in the Bluff Creek corridor in the area that was pictured in
the newspaper with our family and our neighbors throughout this entire year and it's really been
for all of us a pretty, real good positive experience. It's helped teach responsibility and safety to
the kids. It's been just a truckload of fun for us. We've gone down and the newspaper I thought
was somewhat deceiving in the article that was presented. In talking about littering and sort of a
disrespect for the area, and I think kind of quite the contrary. That there's been a lot of respect.
The kids have gone down and built bunkers in areas to play in. They've always plated with
supervision in that area. It's been a great area to play in because it's far removed from the path.
It has been one, just for safety sake. They've always played with proper supervision, whether it
be in the case, at least with our family and in our neighborhood, it's always required a parent to
be down there or appropriate supervision when they've played. There was some talk about the
people causing littering and so on and so forth. I think Michael actually had some demonstration
of that that they're biodegradable, and I just can't stress enough how much fun we've had with
this and what a good experience it has been altogether for us as kind of a whole neighborhood
group. Had just a ton of fun playing down there. And essentially didn't feel disrespectful like
kind of the way that the newspaper had put it, and would like to ask for consideration for a
variance or allowing people to continue possibly in that area. The area provides good shelter and
a lot of fun. It was set back where it didn't feel like we were interrupting anybody else's,
occasionally somebody might walk through. The times that we were down there, we always
showed respect when somebody was coming through. We stopped playing. Let them kind of do
their thing, and then would continue play when they felt. And would just like to I guess publicly
say that we would like some reconsideration of the rules around the people in that area.
Spizale: Okay, thanks for your comments. Next person.
Kent Ludford: My name is Kent Ludford, 8615 Valley View Court. We have my son with me
tonight, if you wouldn't mind him stepping up. I'm not sure, and I believe Michael brought this
stuff along to, in case you're not familiar with what paint ball is. The projectiles are sent out by
compressed air. Just to put it in quotes, the paint ball industry does not call them guns. They're
not paint guns, they're markers. The device that shoots the paint ball, which are these little 68
caliber, little biodegradable pellets and they have a little of paint in it. Do you want to explain
Michael?
Michael Ludford: These are just the paint balls that the...shoots. When they get wet they
dissolve and they're like 99 percent water and one percent paint. This is one broken up and it's
like, it doesn't stain anything so in the rain it will all just wash off and then it disintegrates...
This is a paint ball mask. It's made especially, there's special stuff on here made for paint balls
Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003
so if you get shot it won't break. Then on the markers there's a little safety, just like on any
regular gun. And this is a paint ball stopper for, you plug it into your barrel so if you pull the
trigger and the safety's not on, you have this in your barrel so the paint ball won't fly anywhere
else where you don't want them to go. So that's pretty much it.
Hoffman: You have a video you wanted to show?
Michael Ludford: Yeah.
Kent Ludford: When this is in the barrel then all the other players know he can't do anything.
The lens in here is specially made for these. This is actually stronger than safety glasses that
construction workers use, plus it's got full ear, mouth and chin protection, visor. This whole tape
that he's going to play is only a 10 minute take, and this one we got his first starter kit marker.
Came with that and with the helmet was second but this videotape came with the marker that we
bought. It's a Brass Eagle...manufacturer of paint ball equipment.
Spizale: Maybe Michael could pass the, could we see the paint balls too and see what they look
like and the solution. Thank you.
Kent Ludford: Just one question, we had...a couple ounces and you can tell, it's almost starting
to break down on that...
(A video was shown at this point in the meeting.)
Paul Graves: ...Safety is an issue. There are other people in outskirt Chan, 2 or 3 acre woods,
open fields and they've got an ideal situation for private land. We at Bluff Creek can't do it. So
we were using the city land, unknown that there was something stopping us. We apologize for
doing something that we had thought was perfectly fine because we weren't being destructive, at
least our group was not. We always had a parent down there with them. That was an ideal
situation. That was a set up part specifically for the purpose. It looked to me about the size of a
hockey rink, maybe a little bit bigger but now you can see why the kids needed the trees, the little
bunkers. They need places to maneuver. To take cover. And that's the ideal situation. Small
piece of wooded area. Could be roped off. We could put fences around it. Some signs requiring
the safety issues, but there is a lot of people in Chanhassen that really enjoy this sport. If the
commission can do something to make it easier for them to enjoy it, the closest park that I know
of that you go out and pay 20, 30, 40 dollars for an afternoon, you're going way up to Eagan or
Lakeville. There's nothing that I know of anywhere in the close proximity. So after school they
want to go out and play for half an hour, you can't run them to each side of the metro area. So
that's where our dilemma is. We'd like to see some controls. Make it somewhat legal so the kids
can have some fun, and there's good learning experience. Thank you.
Spizale: Thanks for your comments.
Hoffman: We'll acknowledge the presence of Chairman Franks.
Franks: On time as usual.
Jason Kayati: My name is Jason Kayati, 8715 Valley View Place, Chanhassen. I'm not
requesting anything down in that specific area but some place in Chanhassen, maybe the city
could set aside somewhere for a local paint ballers to play. I've got a couple good reasons for
that. It gives somebody, or it gives us a place to play when we want to play after school or
Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003
whenever, and it will attract more players around like Chanhassen, Chaska, Victoria area to play
there. And if the city wanted to they could set up a post where they can sell paint balls and refills,
C02, do that. It just gives us something to do after school where we're not bored during the
summer. Over summer vacation we have a place, things to do and that's about it.
Audience: I'm 10 and I play paint ball. It's a really fun sport if it's played properly and it's
really safe. Usually we play at Bluff Creek after school, or on the weekends. And I play with all
my brothers and some of their friends.
Franks: Thanks.
Barbara Kayati: My name is Barbara Kayati and I live at 8715 Valley View Place, and my son
Jason was just up here speaking. A couple points I wanted to clarify in the article that appeared
in the Villager that I think kind of didn't truly portray what really was happening. It had alluded
to the littering that was found back there. That litter has been there for a long, long time. We' ve
lived in that area for almost 9 years and my husband's gone back there with my son and said that
that litter and trash has been there for quite some time. The other thing the article alluded to was
parents didn't know where their children were and what they were doing. I knew where my son
was at all times and what he was doing. Just like Mr. Ludford said, we didn't, we weren't aware
that that was against the rules and illegal in Chanhassen for them to play paint ball. And just
what I'd like to ask the city is to consider an area where these kids can go and play paint ball.
Thank you.
Franks: Thank you.
Tim Moore: Hi. My name is Tim Moore. I live at 1812 Valley Ridge Trail South. One of my
sons, I actually have two boys 15 and 14 that play down there. I would ask that the city take a
good look at this sport and allow an area to be set aside, like you've done progressively for the
skate boarders. This would not cost a lot, and the reason I say that is, is that the area would not
need anything to, you saw, if you saw the article, what the boys did with the wood that was down
there. You know all the carts, and you could see the age group that it does cross, even Mr.
Graves has said he's played. I know I have played. I've not played down there, but it is
something that I think that could be done relatively inexpensively and I think you can get a lot of
kids who actually, if you did need to have people to be them to monitor that, you could get a lot
of children to do that. And probably for free. And when I saw that, if you do charge a fee for it,
to help replace like the grass and just keep it up, you can get a lot of kids that would want to come
there and then maybe they would be able to do it for nothing and be able to use the area as well
for nothing. So you charge the children 10 bucks, 15 bucks, 20 bucks. Like you say, they go to a
lot of places that can cost you $50 pretty quickly, and if you charge you know $25-30 and you
have an attendant there that's 18, I'm sure he'd want to play, he or she, and they could maybe
play for free. That type of thing to help offset some of those costs that would be involved with
that, but I know how aggressive you were with doing the skateboarding and boys really
appreciated that when they came on line. And I also know there was an expense in paving that
and buying a lot of equipment for that, but I think it's paid off in the long run. And I think that
something like that could be done very inexpensively. It can be done in an area that is away
from everyone else. You probably would even get adults to come there. I'd probably be willing
to do it you know, to spend weekends there at some point. And like the article said, I am one of
the adults that let my children go down there unbeknownst of not checking in before hand.
Claiming ignorance on that part, but we did know where our children were and we were very, we
knew who they were with. At the most with my boys, there was about 8 kids at a time and it
seemed like they never crossed paths with the other children that were down there that were
Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003
younger. The older boys never played with the younger boys. They always seemed to come at
different times and so forth, and I don't think that in that area, that particular area, no one was at
risk of being hurt because there is a pretty dense as far as any shots coming out of there. But
hopefully you consider that, thank you.
Franks: Thank you.
Jeff Fliss: I don't have the water because I'm long winded or anything. My name is Jeff Fliss. I
live at 8710 Osprey Lane and I walk through that area a lot and I walked through that area before
they started playing. My son plays down there and that area was really a mess before, and I do
agree that the article was really slanted. It came across as a very pristine nature area. It wasn't.
If you walk out there now there's old machinery, equipment, rusted pieces, fencing and really
that's probably a lot more dangerous than what's happening out there right now. You look at
these kids, they're all good kids. Good students, and I do really think that they've done a really
good job of identifying an area that gets them out of the way of everybody. If you look at that
specific area, it's down in kind of a hollow. There's a set of railroad tracks on one side, which
prevents them from encroaching on anybody's private property, and the possibility of hitting any
homes. And because they're down in that hollow it's pretty much contained so I think they've
done a very good job of finding an area that they can stay out of everybody's way and do the
thing that they like to do. And I do think that you should give them the benefit of the doubt and
give them an opportunity to find a place to play in Chanhassen. Thanks.
Franks: Thanks.
Joni Nelson: Hi. I'm Joni Nelson. I live at 8610 Valley View Court, and my neighbors have
been playing out there. My son wanted to play out there. I was a little not sure, but saw how
much enjoyment that they had, so I just want to again go over some of the article because I think
that's probably really not showing the full facts and kind of tough in the way that it was written.
First of all, right. The parents were not aware that it was illegal on public property, as well as
private property, that the paint balls are not allowed as per the article. Why would I think that it's
illegal? Because I've seen hunters with orange vests on and real guns. We also have the conceal
and carry guns right now and so to be real concerned about paint balls, I don't know if any of you
have ever played this sport. I have played this sport and I have been hit and I have had welts but
I've also played softball and I've also played baseball and those welts actually take longer than a
paint ball welt to go away. In fact I have one on my leg right now from 4 weeks ago.
Franks: We'll take your word for it.
Joni Nelson: But I was happy that Paul brought out really that there hasn't been any crossfire.
That there has been parents that have been supervising. Kent even talked about how their paint
markers, not a true gun. Mike was good at demonstrating that the paint will wash away. It's not
going to stain the sidewalk or the building sides and so forth. I too did not like the fact that
there's garbage. There shouldn't be garbage. Kids need to know what the boundaries are and so
forth. The rec center should not be hit by paint balls and so forth and I think those rules do need
to be set. I was curious that we had a concentration on that path that people looked at, it was
probably 15 to 20 feet away to find that paint ball field where if you just look 5 feet by the creek
you will see barbwire. And we have talked about barbwire in our area for quite a while when
those paths first went in and that was probably 5 years ago and even when we moved in 8 years
ago we talked about the barbwire. Do you know who's actually taking care of the barbwire?
You're looking at them over there. Do you know who's actually cleaned up some of that area?
You're looking at them over there. So should they clean up what's been there? Sure. And there
Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003
is rusted, old machinery out there. So I do look at this as a positive of what it's done for the
neighborhood. It has brought people together. In our particular development there's 70 houses
and when we were fa'st built we tried to get the city and our developer to actually put in a
playground. No one passed on that but we had a neighbor who built an unusually large
playground for our neighborhood. We have parents out there that are scrapping the pond off so
the kids can go out there and play ice hockey. We've got parents out there in the cul-de-sac
playing street hockey. Our parents are very involved with our kids and they do know where
they're at. And when I look at all the things that they have to do, I mean we're looking at kids
that are from age 10 to 15. They can't drive vehicles. They're on their bike. Our neighborhood
actually can't bike that far to the skate park. So we are looking at some kind of activity around
our area. Would I want my kids to bike over to the skate park? No, I feel that's too far. Would I
prefer my kids to play paint ball than go to Lake Ann? I'm sorry, I would. We've had a lot of
things happen at Lake Ann and paint ball is much safer. Problems arise, and as my company has
trained me, problems mean opportunities and we must understand them in order to provide an
opportunity and a solution. I do not feel that tearing down and vandalizing the forts that these
kids have spent hours on really resolve the problem. We actually need to find some kind of
activity that will keep these 10 to 15 year old kids occupied. And this article is telling us that we
should send our kids to another town. They should go to Buffalo or to Eagan to play. What are
we really telling them? Chanhassen isn't willing to allow them some kind of activity. We're
telling them to leave our city. Aren't we saying that already with our rec center. We go to
Chaska and we go to Eden Prairie. We have 500 acres of open space out there. We pride
ourselves in Chanhassen about that open space. We also have a tough budget. This is very cheap
land. Very cheap sport. My kids are responsible. They purchased their gun and they purchase
all their supplies. They're held responsible. We can also look at corporate America. Where is
corporate America sending their employees to learn strategic planning? It's to the paint ball
fields. That's where I learned how to play. The only disappointment I have tonight is we actually
don't have any girls that have played this sport yet. Thank you.
Tyler Fen'ell: Hi. My name's Tyler Ferrell.
Stephen Graves: Hi, I'm Stephen Graves.
Tyler Ferrell: And we're coming to the stand to tell you why we like paint ball. You go first.
Stephen Graves: We've had lots of fun with our friends and our family playing paint ball and it's
fun and a great opportunity.
Tyler Ferrell: Just recently it was my dad's birthday and we got him a paint ball gun so he could
play along with us. And he couldn't play with us anymore because the rock, or the article in the
paper and we're hoping that you can change that so that we can play again, instead of having to
go out to a way, way out, just to play for half an hour. This weekend we're going to Wisconsin to
play and we're going to...Wisconsin so.
Franks: Good job.
Kent Ludford: Frank, you missed we had a 10 minute video.
Franks: I saw a good portion of the video.
Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003
Kent Ludford: I was going to say we're welcome to leave it if you want to watch it or if anybody
wants to watch it again to catch any fine points. You're more than welcome to just let Todd or
Jerry know to get it back to me.
Franks: My personal experience is I've caught a few of those fine points right in the goggles so,
maybe it doesn't compare. Is that, anyone else wanting to come up and talk about paint ball?
We've, okay. We have.
Tyler Raymond: My name is Tyler Raymond and I live at 35...Parkland Way, Chanhassen and I
don't own a paint ball gun but I've been down there and I've seen them playing there and it
seems like they have a lot of fun and I think you should give them an area to play.
Franks: Thanks Tyler. Okay. You know we're open for all topics tonight. Not anything that
needs to be on the agenda. We just really want to hear from people and if there's anybody else
that's out there who has something that they want to bring up, just like this paint ball issue, I
really want to invite you to come on up and we'd like to hear what you have to say so.
Jacob Graves: Hi. My name is Jacob Graves. I own a paint ball gun and it's just a really fun
sport and we wouldn't want to drive way out to the places.
Franks: Thanks Jacob. They didn't help too much with the laughing did they? That's a lot to get
up and speak.
Clay Muhlenhake: First of all my name's Clay Muhlenhake. I'm the President of our Chaska
Area Football Association and very few kids are very passionate, as passionate and as willing to
get up as you guys are to talk about your sport. I've played paint ball and it's a blast. And it is
corporate America teaching strategy and when you get shot right away, you think wow. I thought
I was doing the right thing. That's not the reason I'm here tonight, but I'm glad I got to hear you
guys' point of view because the article was slanted. Now I know both sides of the story. No
matter how thin you slice a piece of meat there's always two sides. I'm just here to talk about
football and the program. The youth football program. We've been, I met with Jerry Ruegemer
and Todd several times about our football program, and just want to put in a bid to try to get some
fields done. We're going to put together a letter to offer some financial support to try and get a lit
100 yard field. Right now our current program has about 500 kids involved, all in District 112,
and once you get into the 6th, 7th and 8th grade you play on a 100 yard field. We don't have a lit
100 yard field other than the high school field right now. We've had conversations with Jerry and
Todd about making an offer, trying to get some money raised to put together a 100 yard lit field,
so every Thursday night our 7th and 8th graders don't have to leave town and get home late that
evening. So just like to consider that. We will be putting together a letter within the next month
or so and maybe hopefully by the 2004 season we'll...share the responsibility, as well as the
wealth of a program that's great. And if you guys aren't signed up for football.
Franks: Thank you. Well there's some faces out there that haven't stood up yet so, anybody else
have anything more that they'd like to add? Bring it up in front of the commission. Except for
you.
Ron Roeser: Hi, I'm Ron Roeser. I live at 222 Chan View and I'm a biker, not a paint ball
person.
Franks: And Ron is a former Park commission members.
Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003
Ron Roeser: Yeah.
Hoffman: City council member.
Ron Roeser: And city council. I've done it all, no. I was just wondering about, you know you
get down to the end of the big hill there, is that Audubon? If there's any plan to finish that bike
trail over to the comer where it picks up on Chaska's trail. That and Galpin ends kind of
suddenly too. Are we thinking about putting trails or finishing that?
Franks: Well it's all part of a comprehensive trail plan and what we' ve been working on is as the
parcels of land develop and we're able to acquire the trail through the development of the
property we connect all the pieces, but what that's left us with is, just like what you're saying.
Trails in one spot and then a gap.
Ron Roeser: It abruptly ends and all of a sudden you've got to go on Lyman, which is kind of
terror trail.
Hoffman: Lyman Boulevard is a county road, and we've been waiting and waiting and waiting,
just as you have, for the county to go ahead and upgrade that road. It's a cooperative project
between the county and the city. It needs to happen and all of the trails have dumped right down
onto Lyman starting at 101 you pick that up there and Powers, Audubon and Galpin and Lyman is
really seen as the east/west connector to allow for all those loops to come back and forth and also
to get down into Chaska. So independent of the county getting the road built, the trail won't go in
so we're simply waiting for the county to kick that project out.
Ron Roeser: Yeah, I was sure you were aware of that. I just thought I'd point it out. Also the
tunnel under Powers Boulevard's about the ugliest thing you can ride through. I'm just
wondering if they have any plans of painting it. Why not put a mural in there or do something
but it's really ugly. The other tunnels are great. You know really nice. So, and I love the trails.
Franks: Thanks. Come on up. There's no one out there that wants to come and talk about a dog
park? Alrighty.
Barbara Kayati: I own a dog. That would be nice.
Franks: Well come on up and get it on the record. You can have more than one issue tonight.
Oh yeah.
Barbara Kayati: Okay. Barbara Kayati, 8715 Valley View Place. I'm a dog owner and I'd love
to see a dog park here. A fenced in area where we can let our dogs run. So I'd like you to
consider that.
Franks: Great. We'd like to see that too. Well anybody else? Sure.
Audience: I'd just like to commend the commission, I've lived in Chanhassen for about 8 years
but I've had a business here for over, our 20th year now. And you have one fantastic park system
and I know I personally have sponsored a number of ball teams. I have a men' s team for 18 years
and a ladies team for maybe 15 and 16 years and the people who mn your park department on a
daily level are fantastic. I think they need a hand.
Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003
Franks: I agree with that. Thanks for sharing that because I know that they have to field all the
calls when things aren't going the way that we want them to go. And I think it's really great for
you guys to hear too that there' s a lot, most of the time things are going the way we do want them
to go. You just don't hear that enough so, you hear that tonight. Well if there isn't anybody else
that's even thought of another issue, since you came here maybe for something else and there's
anything else you'd like to get out, let us know. If not what I'd like to do is temporarily suspend
our meeting tonight and we're going to come down and give everybody an opportunity to just
kind of pin us in a comer and talk with us a little bit and we'll give you a little bit of feedback of
what some of our ideas are and then after that we'll try to move on with our business and you can
stay if you want after that or you can certainly leave if you'd like too. So do I require a motion to
temporarily suspend the business? I'll ask for that anyway. Is there a motion to temporarily
suspend the meeting.
O'Shea moved, Atkins seconded to recess the Park and Recreation Commission meeting to
hold an informal open house with the public at this point. Chairman Franks called the
meeting back to order.
Franks: The next item that is before us, well you know what, before we get to that. Todd, I'd just
like to thank you for advertising, for letting people know that we're having our community open
mic. We are kind of focused on one issue today but that's the way it goes. I'd like to consider
maybe doing this more than once a year. Just during some slow times of the year, so it gets to be
something that is known and gets spread around that you can come and bring up anything. Good,
bad or ugly. Hopefully good.
Stolar: Also if we could start a little bit earlier if we do that.
Franks: On those days it might be worth our while to start earlier. Keep the rest of the agenda
light.
Stolar: Do we need to take action on what we heard or have an opportunity to discuss?
Franks: When you're saying take action, if anything were to come up it'd have to be set as new
business on a future agenda.
Stolar: I'm sorry, I meant take action to discuss whether we want this on a future agenda. Not
take action today.
Franks: Discuss of whether any of the things that came up today we want on a future agenda?
Stolar: Yes.
Franks: Well let's take some time to do that. Well Glenn since you bring up the question, why
don't you start with comments that you have.
Stolar: Well I guess I heard three things. One prompted by our chair here. A place to play paint
ball, a lit field and a dog park. And I guess the question being is have these issues come up?
Obviously we're going to talk later about the capital budget which may influence a lot of this but
I think from the paint ball perspective the big issue there is the ordinance, correct?
Franks: Correct.
Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003
Stolar: So the question there would be is do we view this as a recreational opportunity for which
there might be an exception made if there's a designated area. Not saying we're building one.
Not saying you know a lot of other things but do we feel this is a recreation need I guess is where
I'm asking you guys, have you seen it anywhere else come up as a big issue?
Hoffman: It's come up at other cities as a big issue. There's really no one currently that I'm
aware of, and when I say no one I'm talking municipality or public entity that has taken it upon
themselves to say it's an allowed activity in public space. But it's a new issue. If we go ahead
and broaden that spectrum and take a look across the country we'll probably be able to start
finding some municipalities or counties or agencies that have done that. It's a very popular sport.
Very popular activity, but I think any time you talk extreme sports there's always that shock of
well is this allowed. Where do you allow it and once you have to start putting controls on it, then
how do those controls, how are they enforced and what are the activities. This little area, as nice
as it is could not be opened up as a public paint ball area. There's no access to it. The
neighborhood has great access but beyond that there's no public access to it.
Stolar: We did talk to them because I figured this area would not be an appropriate one, but the
question would be more generally like a state park, like or other municipalities and you answered
it, that have areas designated for this type of activity.
Hoffman: Since the article came out and the phone calls started ringing at my house that night,
I' ve had some, taken every opportunity to have a conversation, make some phone calls. We had a
Board meeting today of a statewide parks and recreational professionals. We brought it up as a
topic and it's an issue that people are talking about, but currently there are no public. There's
private, plenty of private ones across the metropolitan, or across the state and no public.
Franks: Well I'm not interested in letting that stop me since we pushed the envelope with a
public free skate park when it was the same kind of issue and it was just through exploring it that
we really kind of I think set the trend for municipalities like our's to go do it. And look around,
everybody's got one now and when we put our's in, nobody had one. So not to say that paint ball
is something that would be viable, but I think it may be, were it the same type of exploration.
Just open up the Fleet Farm ad any Sunday and you'll see how popular it is. They're not putting
ads space in their circular for nothing. They know that that stuff is selling so. Herman Field
Todd.
Hoffman: Need a place for a dog park. Need a place for a paint ball park.
Franks: So the question is, at some future point does the commission wish some report from staff
regarding paint ball? So, and is that something that commission members are interested in?
Okay. Some of the things I'd like to see then is, as Glenn mentioned, who else is doing it and if
they are, what are they doing and how. Some history on the ordinance and it's inception and
why. And liability issues. I don't know if the city attorney's involved in that. And just some
thought about possible locations, if any, required equipment and cost.
Hoffman: Okay. There's really two kinds of parks. The one you saw in the video. You could
fence off anywhere and put in artificial obstacles, or a location in a wooded location.
Stolar: ...where we talked about the Rollerblade rinks not being used that much. I don't know if
that's a good location but those are questions of do we have the space. And I'm not trying to
10
Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003
suggest that we should do this. I'm just saying they came en masse and we at least owe them the
diligence of exploring what options exist, if any.
Hoffman: Absolutely. Very good group. They contacted, well Kent hit me up in the hardware
store. When you get done buying that paint come and see me.
Franks: As far as the dog park you are indicating we're going to tour a possible site sometime in
the future?
Hoffman: Yep.
Franks: And then lights for fields always has been an issue.
Hoffman: Jerry can probably talk to that. 100 yard fields, I don't know that we have one.
Ruegemer: We do not have a 100 yard field at this point. What we've done for about the last 3,
4, 5 years we' ve played at Lake Ann Park on opposite nights of fall softball and that sort of thing.
What we've done is we've put 80 yard fields on Fields 4 and 5 out there, and kind of pacified
their need for a little while. They've played 3rd, 4th and 5th and 6th grade football out there. And
we've done fall soccer on Field number 1. What we're trying to do is kind of utilize our fields as
much as we can for different uses. And now the football association is relatively infant in it's
existence. This is probably their about fourth or fifth year too. We've kind of started with them.
They started with 150 kids approximately. Now they're going to be up over 500. No question
football has a need. There's a lot of kids from Chanhassen playing in that league. They are
getting to the point where they're kind of busting at the seams and need to have those types of
opportunities.
Franks: I'm just thinking that if we had a multi-use lighted field, soccer, football. You know part
of my vision at Bandimere was that it be you know a great tournament location and for that really
you're going to need soccer. A tournament location for that you're really going to need lights on
one of those fields.
Ruegemer: And that certainly could happen and we've had some issues with it being the fourth
wettest year last year in hundred years or on record or whatever. We did do some damage, turf
damage to our fields out there because of some football play. And certainly I've met with Clay,
Dale Gregory and I met with Clay and Rob Norby with the football association and kind of went
through a lot of different things. They're well aware, they want to be good stewards of the fields.
That can certainly happen. We talked a lot about where location might be for a lighted field in
town, and the commission certainly can direct staff on if you want to identify one of the
Bandimere fields, Lake Ann as a designated football field, we can certainly do that. And that
could be a dual purpose field, but you need to dedicate that, if it's going to be football in the fall,
then it needs to be football in the fall. We can't probably do both. And then what needs to
happen in the spring is we need to have some growing time before we schedule that field so do
we keep soccer off it til June 17 June 15th? That all can certainly can happen through creative
scheduling so. And I know Clay's going to put together a letter for the commission to review and
identify some potential sources of income to pay for those lights.
Franks: I know Glenn and I were talking about putting a cell tower up. Trading the lease space
for assistance in getting the lights up. I'm sure that's been done before.
Stolar: So for this one should we wait until we get the letter?
11
Park and Rec Commission - May 28, 2003
Ruegemer: I would wait until you get the letter and that's coming to you soon. So football has a
need. I mean soccer has a need and you can certainly double your...
Franks: I mean there's nothing that's going to happen this year anyway obviously, or probably
not next year either so.
Ruegemer: Yeah, it's a significant investment.
Franks: Alright, so we'll wait on that one. And as far as the paint ball, Todd we'll let you slip
that in when you're ready and then on an agenda for a meeting where it seems to fit and we'll
have the proper amount of time to deal with it.
Hoffman: Should be in June.
Franks: In June, oh okay. Any other comments? Questions from commissioners.
Spizale: I hear a lot of people still asking about the dog walking thing. I think that is quite a
popular thing to bring up. I have people asking me that all the time. I know we have a hard time
finding a spot for it but boy if we could, it's something that people really want.
Hoffman: We've got a potential spot.
Stolar: I was just driving in Chicago and they have a little beach by Belmont Harbor for dogs.
Just a beach, right on Lake Michigan by Belmont Harbor. It's been there for years. Kind of fun
to see those dogs out there.
Hoffman: The dogs typically are at either the Lake Susan public access or Lake Ann public
access as far as water's public access.
Franks: Any other comments? Questions? Again thanks Todd in your work in getting this put
together.
Hoffman: That went very well.
Franks: Cookies were a hit. So were the 20 ouncers. All the old people went for the cans and the
kids went for the 20 ouncers. Alright.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: O'Shea moved, Spizale seconded to approve the Minutes of
the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated April 22, 2003 as presented. All voted
in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
INITIATE REVIEW OF ACCESSIBILITY EVALUATION FOR CITY OF
CHANHASSEN PARKS.
Franks: We've set it up to take a look at the assisted accessibility evaluation for the city parks.
This was done a long time ago Todd.
Hoffman: Ten years.
12
· Aepsanl/qJedoJd pewao ~o eqt uo tllnq stJO~,
loedSUl pug qsuJt dn )tOld 'AJo§eJ~D elco tuepue~,ulJ®dns eougue~
-ulelN qJed puc 'i~el 'uetul4oH ppo. L JOtOeJlO.uolteeJoel:l pue ~Jed
ax:asa:8 >iaa:D $$ni{I u! pa.:'aAoas!p plaDap,~,~, q
· SBSd -- ~¢IIIA ueese~JeqO--- ~ 'g ~ ~W 'Aupmntu. '
·
Office of County Sheriff
~ Carver County Government Center
~ Justice Center
CARVER 600 East Fourth Street
COUNTY Chaska, Minnesota 55318-2190
Bud Olson, Sheriff
Emergency: 911
SheriffAdmin: (952) 361-1212
Admin. Fax: (952) 361-1229
Dispatch: (952) 361-1231
(Non-Emergency)
To:
From:
Todd Gerhardt
Sergeant Jim Olson'~
Date: July 22, 2003
Re'
Paintball gun use in city limits
I have concerns about changing city ordinance to allow paintball gun use in the
residential areas of the city.
People that play paintball use protective equipment for their safety. This protective
equipment includes face mask, throat protection, and heavy clothing. This protective
equipment is recommended by the manufacturers. Even with heavy clothing a paintball
can leave welts on a person. A paintball gun can shoot up to 200 feet and with a flat-line
barrel up to 300 feet. In my opinion this combination of the distance a paintball can
travel combined with the force of a paintball could lead to people that are not involved in
paintball being hit and possibly injured. I also believe that we would see houses hit by
errant paintballs. A paintball can dent aluminum siding on a house and may put holes in
vinyl siding.
There is not a city in the county that currently allows paintball use in their city limits.
There are not any regulations on paintball guns in the townships of the county.
A compromise that could be reached is allowing paintball use in the portions of the city
where hunting currently is permitted with landowner permission and a city permit. I have
included a map that shows where these areas are. These areas are big enough and remote
enough that I think it could be done safely as long as it is not hunting season. The
Council could decide if they want to regulate the use of paintball in these areas or leave it
up to the landowners.
Equal Opportunity Employer
Printed on 30% Post-Consumer Recycled Paper
City of Chanhassen
Shooting Area Map
I I I
i I I
I I I
· · ·
N
Bow Hunting Only
Gun and Bow Hunting
In addition to those areas indicated on this map, no shooting is allowed:
1. On any platted lot.
2. On any tract of unplatted land of less than 3 acres.
3. Within 500 feet of any building occupied by human being or livestock
or within 500 feet of any stockcade or corral containing livestock without the
consent or permission of the owner or occupant of such premises.
4. Within 500 feet of any road, street or highway.
5. In such other ares or under such other circumstances as shall be
prohibited by State law or regulations of the Commission of Natural
Resources of the State of Minnesota.
6. Within 500 feet of flails or parks.
The areas shown ara approximate only.
The city and its agents are not responsible
for any inaccuracies contained herein.
Indicate on the map the property on which you will be shooting. I have reviewed the above map
and am aware of the no shooting areas.
APplicant Signature
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
LAW ENFORCEMENT
7700 MARKET BLVD. * P.O. BOX 147 * CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(952) 227-1181 * FAX(952) 227-1190
SHOOTING APPIJCATION/PERMIT
PLEASE PRINT FULL NAME:
NOTICE:
* YOU ARE REQUIRED TO CARRY THIS PERMIT *
WHILE SHOOTING AND A COPY MUST BE PLACED
ON THE DASH OF YOUR VEHICLE
Name Date of Birth:
Fkst Middle Last
Address:
Date:
Fee: $10.00
Receipt #:
~(Applicant must initial)
Street City State Zip
*Gun Safety Cert. # Home Phone:
Address/Legal Description of Property Where You Propose to Use Weapon:
Work Phone:
Describe Weapon (Only Shotgun & Bow/Arrow Permitted):
Make Model Mfg.
Describe Vehicle That Permit Holder Will Use When Hunting:
Make & Model Color Lic. #
Purpose For Which Permit is Requested:
I am owner of thc property for which this permit is requested and authorize
to shoot on my property as described above.
Signature of Land Owner:
Signature Print Name
Address: Home It: Work It:
In making this application, I understand that this permit does not invalidate any other laws or absolve me from any safety requirement or permit
illegal trespassing. I have reviewed the map on the reverse side of this permit, and am aware of the no shooting areas as indicated on said map.
* Certificate number required for persons under 16 years of age.
adult's parent or guardian (signature to be made in person).
Signature of Applicant
Additional, for persons under 16, the application must be signed by the young
Signature of Parent/Guardian
Under the provisions of Ordinance 9B, this permit is hereby granted for the purposes described above and is valid only until
SEE REVERSE SIDE
Todd Gerhardt, City Manager
g:L~ffety~ormLshoot, app