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1h. Minutes/ k."- CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL ' REGULAR MEETING JANUARY 10, 1994 Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:32 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. ' COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Senn, Councilman Mason and Councilwoman Dockendorf. Councilman Wing arrived prior to item 3 on the agenda. STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Todd Gerhardt, Todd Hoffman, Paul Krauss, Kate Aanenson, Sharmin Al -Jaff, Charles Folch and Steve Kirchman ' APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve the agenda as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: PRESENTATION OF MAPLE LEAF AWARD TO CRAIG BLECHTA, PUBLIC SAFETY ' COMMISSION. Mayor Chmiel: I'd lice to make a presentation to Craig. It's my pleasure this evening to award Craig Blechta with the Maple Leaf Award in recognition of 6 years he has served on the Public Safety Commission. During this time Craig has served as Assistant Chair and also Chairman of the Commission. Craig has been involved with significant events that the Public Safety Commission has addressed including the development of the animal control contract program and the police contract system. Both of which have received national attention. In addition to devoting at least one night each month for the past 6 years to Public Safety Commission meetings, Craig continues to serve on the Chanhassen Fire Department, all of which exemplify why we are pleased to present him with the Maple Leaf Award And I'd lice to give you this Craig. As it indicates here, the City of Chanhassen Maple Leaf Award presented to Craig Blechta, Chanhassen Public Safety Commission 1989 through ' 1993. In recognition of dedicated public service to the city of Chanhassen from the City of Chanhassen Council. I congratulate you. Thank you. ' Craig Blechta: Thank you very much. Mr. Mayor, members of the Council and ladies and gentlemen. I'm very honored to accept this award tonight. The last 6 years that I've served on the Public Safety Commission have been very gratifying to me. This time that I've spent has taught me to really appreciate the complexities of managing a public safety department. The time served has also brought about a respect for the many fine people ' that I've had an opportunity to work with. People such as Mayor Chmiel, Don Ashworth, the members and staff . of the Public Safety Commission and the Public Safety Department. I'd be remised if I did not thank two other people in particular. First is a good friend that could not be here tonight. I'm sorry. I have the deepest respect for Scott Han. Scott is a man who has given a lot of himself to provide the very best Public Safety Department that a community could hope for. Thank you Scott. Second is my wife Patty who is with me tonight. Without her understanding and support I would not be standing in front of you tonight. Thank you once again for the great honor. It's really appreciated Don. PRESENTATION OF CERTIFICATE OF APPRECIATION, BARBARA MONTGOMERY, SENIOR COMMISSION. ' Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Craig. I have another presentation to make this evening. Barbara Montgomery, would you come forward please. Barbara Montgomery joined the Senior Needs Task Force in June of 1990. ' She volunteered for the project hoping to use her social service skills developed during her professional career. She was heavily involved in the project which set the stage for the city's future efforts in meeting the needs of 1 of 1991 Barbara was our mature residents. They had another word here and I didn' lik Senior Commission. She was elected as it's first appointed by the City Council to the newly created Chanhassen Chairperson and served in that position for 2 years. in '93 she relinquished her role as Chair but continued to serve as a comm issioner. Also in 1993 she w for ou She is te in ffollowingnthroug the Year by the Chanhas h on senior es. sen Chamber, which is a great award y oals such as Her dedication and commitment has been insttum transit th e s�°� and estaeli�g achie ving Linkage Line ' construction of the Senior Center, improving p we which is an informational and referral program. Although she is leaving the commission u Barbara. certain that the will continue to benefit from her efforts. I know we already have. 'Thank Y community ration. Be it hereby ordained that the Chanhassen like to present this award also to you as a Certificate of Apprec for the dedication and public service offered City Council has officially acted to recognize Barbara Montgomery e d Further that the City Council has to the citizens of our community as Chanhassen Senior Citizen Commissr on of the gratitude of this city for the ' hereby placed into the official Minutes this recognition as a lasting expre service you provided• have a say something, although I'll be q uick- I really ' Barbara Montgomery' Thank you. I guess I should really y m ts pl to be part of a lot to thank all of you for. I think it's been a wonderful c�d o v h add ,0 yea a maybe 1 5 ye to community that really cares about it's senior populati Of for the parents ou know the bell tolls for a ll of us. It's notes not very f down the your current age and that of your pare • Y seniors. We're laying the ground work and you are now for t la°o o f community that's been mo road. And I think its wonderful what you've been doing. Al -Jeff and Paul Krauss. They supportive and I thank you very, very much. And I thank espec h Sh d an overcome tit it but they have worked very ha overcome a lot of obstacles for us. have been just, I don't know top ful. Thank you very much. And I think all of us seniors are very grate and it's neat to have these kinds of people here. Mayor Chmiel: It's always a fun thing to do to comb' these kinds of recognit to our citizens who have really gone far beyond their responsibilities to a community Thank you. ORGANIZATIONAL ITEMS: Don Ashworth: Thank you. Would you like me to go through all of them? Mayor Chmiel: Right. it's business. Don Ashworth: Okay. Rules of Procedure. The documents under which the City Co�or c hange was made as ' The rules are primarily the same as the City Council operated under this Pas year. it dealt with the consent agenda basically establishing the procedure that the Council's currently following. Official newspaper. We did have two requests, Minnesota Sun as well as the Villager. However, the City State law requires that a city designate the paper. R You have a newspaper ' Attorney has taken the Po sition that designation. Accordingly, we're recommending the Villager. Official in your city, you must make that designs ' n State Bank operate Depository. We've received a request from Kevin McShane r recomm n g we mWe n ot recommendation that as the depository for the City. We're again making 1 there are the City attempts to obtain the best earnings as possible for our investment portfolio and add an As various firms that are used as a part of to investment ntransactions. �hsize o o c it y and how we continue � mw•tfiat additional name onto the required signature to City Attorney, we're recommending that Campbell, Kn the work that Fuchs Roger' office has done for our city. area. I might make a side n ote that I have really appreciated They are very timely in their responses. They give very soun d advice. I have yet to see us lose a case court. They continue to win every one of those, and I think they continue to be very cost effective for us. Again, Cam bell, Knutson, Scott is being recommended. Bond consultant. In a similar fashion I feel that Springsted P 2 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 i Y ware of the fact that the has done a very good fob for the city. You're a y had recommended several issues this past year for refunding. That was a savings of approximately $500,000.00. This year, in February, another 30 days, you'll be seeing another group of refundings and that will be a similar $500,000.00 savings. They continue ' to work the account very well. Acting Mayor. Staff makes no recommendation. This is an item that the Council needs to discuss and make the decision on. Weed Inspector. The Mayor is officially the weed inspector under State law. Typically the Council has acted to select Deputy Weed Inspector, Bob Zydowsky. He continues to be willing to serve in that capacity. Fire Chief. The Fire Department made a recommendation or held elections and they're recommending that Jim McMahon be appointed for a new 2 year team. And finally Health Officer. We have been using Dr. McCollum. We continue to make that recommendation. However I should note that we have not been able to catch up with Dave and so we do not have his agreement that he , would serve in that capacity. We'd recommend that the Council make that appointment but with the understanding that he confirm that. City Auditors. This is the second of a three year contract with Deloitte. They a very, very fine firm but if we were going to consider a change, this would probably be the time to do it. ' And I think that it's reasonable policy to take proposals on this type of thing every so often and this might be a good time to do that. You may want to table it. Have it part of a work session. You may want to, however the Council wishes to handle that item but again this might be a good time to look at fresh proposal process, and ' potentially Deloitte would come to the top of the surface again but again it might be a good time. Maya Chmiel: Okay, thank you Don. We have what the rules of procedures are and all of the balance of the others. One that we have as Acting Maya. I would like to nominate Mike Mason as Acting Mayor for this , coming year. In addition to the City Auditor, I've had some discussions with Don. There seems to be some concerns of our existing auditor but I thought possibly that we should sit down and discuss this with them prior to coming to a decision as to who we're going to have and see if we can get some of those things corrected and as he said, Deloitte and Touche have done an exceptional job for us. But I would like to get that opportunity to ' down with him and with them and come up with a conclusion to make sure that they follow through a little sit differently than what was transpired in the last year. Only because it does put us behind and it puts them behind and it causes some problems. So with that, I would like to table the auditors until we have a discussion and ' come back, if we have to, with a whole host of new auditors. So with that I'd like a motion. I'd make that motion to go through the process as he's indicated. The organizational items with the two exceptions, that having Mike Mason as Acting Mayor and to table the City Auditors at this particular time. Is there a second? ' Councilwoman Dockendorf: I will second the nomination for Mike as Acting Mayor. On the City Auditors, I'm not sure that I want to, I mean from what I've heard and seen in the past, this is an ongoing problem with Deloitte. So I'm willing to table it but first let's have a discussion among ourselves and with city staff before ' we take it to them. Mayor Chmiel: That's my position. ' Councilwoman Dockendorf. Okay. And I just have another comment on the official paper. I have no problems staying with the Villager. I just know in the past year we have had a comment from at least one citizen who said they did not receive it. I think they lived on Kings Road, so just a heads up for Dean to make sure that ' everyone in the city gets it. Thanks. Otherwise, I second your nomination. Or your motion. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion? ' Councilman Senn: I have just a comment. Given the amount of work that it takes to really go through each one of these things when you are going to review them, I think it'd really be beneficial if we set up some type of ' 3 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 rotation that allowed us to, like if we're going to look at the auditors and re- examine that this year, let's look at the bond consultant, the city attorney, let's put them on a rotation because I mean it's not fair to say to staff, you should relook at these in depth and that's why we use the multi year contracts. But a lot of our multi year ' contracts are kind of starting to run together in terms of in sync which means they're going to be forced to review them all at once and it seems it would make a lot more sense to set a rotation up where we kind of look at one each year and if there are any issues, deal with them and look at, you know look more specifically at getting our fees and bids and that sort of thing in relationship to them. Mayor Chmiel: I feel comfortable with that. I don't have any problem. ' Councilman Mason: That's a good idea. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Call the question. ' Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve the following organizational items: ' a. b. Resolution #94 -01: Rules of Procedures as presented. Official Newspaper - Villager. c. Official Depository - Chanhassen Bank and Resolution #94-02 approving a Hold Harmless Agreement. d. City Attorney - Campbell, Knutson, Scott and Fuchs ' e. Bond Consultant - Springsted. L Acting Mayor - Councilman Mike Mason g: Weed Inspector - Mayor Chmiel and Deputy Weed Inspector - Bob Zydowsky h. Fire Chief - Jim McMahon for a 2 year term. i. Health Officer - Dr. McCollum with his consent. j. City Auditors - Tabled for discussing at a City Council work session. ' All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve the ' following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: a. Resolution #94 -03: Accept Sanitary Sewer and Water Improvements in Lake Susan Hills West 9th Addition, Project No. 93 -5. b. Resolution #94-04: Accept Street Improvements in Ithilien Addition, Project 92 -13. ' d. Resolution #94 -05: Accept Street Improvements in The Summit at Near Mountain, Project 92-4. h. Approve Master Joint Powers Agreement, Chaska /Carver County/Chanhassen, Carver County Road Construction. j. Resolution #94 -06: Resolution Authorizing Increase in Heating Permit Fees. ' 1. City Council Minutes dated December 13, 1993 Planning Commission Minutes dated December 1, 1993 and December 4, 1993 4 LA 1 F City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 `' n. Resolution #94 -07: ve Joint Resolution with Carver County Requesting MnDot to Consider S P APIA ty �l 8 � Revisions to County Roads in Chanhassen along Kerber Boulevard and TH 101. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Maya Chmiel: We'll move the items of consent onto item 7(A). There is on this for Pauly's, and I'll just back up one moment. If there's any discussion in regard to that, which is item (m). If not, we're going to carry that ' over to item 7(a) which is at the end of the agenda unless you'd like to address that at this time. Russ, do you have anything? , Don Ashworth: Maybe I was mistaken. Maya Chmiel: Alright. So it will stand as corrected. ' VISITOR PRESENTATION. None. APPEAL DECISION OF THE BOARD OF ADJUSTMENTS AND APPEALS FOR A 7S FOOT ' WETLAND SETBACK VARIANCE FOR THE LOCATION OF ASEPTIC SYSTEM, SOUTH, EAST AND WEST OF LAKE MINNEWASHTA AND NORTH OF HIGHWAY S. JEFF PA PKE. ' Public Present: Name Address ' Cal Haskins 9480 County Road 43 Dr. C. Gustafson 1195 Duckwood Terrace Jeff Papke 6180 Cardinal Drive South, Shorewood ' Sharmin Al -Jaffa This is a peninsula located south, east and west of Lake Minnewashta. The applicant is requesting a 75 foot setback variance to locate a septic system 75 feet from the edge of a wetland, or the high ' water mark of a wetland. The ordinance, our city ordinances require a 150 foot setback. This is a lot of record. We do have some concerns with it with a parcel such as the type of soils that are on the site. The soils, the only survey that we looked at were, that was available to us was the Carver County soil survey and it showed us that the soils weren't suitable for a septic system. However, if and when the applicant puts in a septic system, it ' would have to be designed to meet all of the standards. It would be looked at by Steve Kirchman, the Building Official and unless they meet those standards, it won't be permitted to be located on this site. Earlier today the Mayor had some questions in regards to hooking up to sewer and water. There are, and the cost of hooking up ' to sewer and water. The hook -up would cost approximately $30,000.00 to $35,000.00 for an on site lift station. A typical residential single family would be assessed $8,000.00 for sewer and water so if we take sewer alone that's $4,000.00. The cost..As quite substantial. This variance is for a setback from the edge of the wetland only. It's not for the design of the system. Staff is recommending approval for the setback from the edge of the ' wetland. If there are any specific questions regarding the septic system, Steve Kirchman is available to answer questions that you might have. We are recommending approval with conditions outlined in the staff report. Thank you. , Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Sharmin. Is Mr. Papke here? Would you like to say something at this time? One of the questions that I have is if this does get approved, are you in agreement with the conditions that are contained within the recommendation? ' 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Jeff Papke: Yes I am. Just to I guess give you a little more information here. I'm now the owner of record. I'm currently in a purchase agreement with the owner and it would be our intent to build on that property in like ' a 3 year time frame. And one of the conditions of the purchase agreement is that the property be able to obtain a building permit so that's the reason why we're going through these actions. Our initial request was that the, or discussions were that the property itself will be reclassified because that's the only piece of property on that lake ' that's classified as wetland. When the survey was done and the classifications were established, the maps were incorrect and they showed the property to be About 3 or 4 feet below where it actually is and I think reality• when the wetland designations was given, it was because the maps were incorrect. It looked like it was lower than it actually is. If you surveyed the property it shows hardwood trees and certainly when we've done borings ' for the septic proposal, the modeling is at an acceptable level which means that over ... water has risen above the necessary levels. Now I guess to clarify—some of the tests that were done, and the proposal was not for your normal septic system. It is for a mound system which the initial look at from the engineer was, I think he ' approved it and he thought it looked okay as far as a mound system. I drink in general when the sewer was Put in that runs along the west side of the lake, if the intent was to make a connection onto that parcel, a lot of record, it certainly would have or could have been designed to run close at that point in time. i think it's about an 1,800 foot run and I know I've looked at some of the costs involved this far and I know Sharmin has too ' and .. $35,000.00 to $65, 000.00 for sewer and water, which really creates a hardship for the property' given the . distance from sewer and a connection would have to be made across a Class 3 wetland in order to do that. Again, I'm in agreement with the provisions and the caveats are included as part of the variance request. ' Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Is there anyone else wanting to address this at this time? If not, I'll bring it back to Council. In reviewing some of the analysis that were done, I was looking at Steve Kirchman's memo. I feel we're sort of putting a cart before the horse but at the same token, trying to buy the property is a problem in itself if they can't get a condition on it as they're looking for. It seems to me that some of the ... point of looking at the borings that were there was done as he's indicated in his first memo, was suitable for an on site sewage treatment system. He's indicating that that site is very marginal and moving it 10 foot in any direction could ' render it unsuitable. And I guess I'm thinking about our County Road 17 with the existing soils, although the. County had built a highway over some soils that were not conducive to the road and even though it did stand up. I'm trying to make a comparison is what I'm doing. I still have some concerns with the borings one side or the other and to have some additional borings from where the proposal is being looked at. And I feel more comfortable because I'm not sure as to what the balance of that site basically is. I look at it from a construction aspect and with unsuitable soils, there can be all kinds of given problems with a home going on that particular soil, on those soils. And I wouldn't want to see a house list one side to the other. I'm not sure as to what kind ' of foundations are even going to be going in. And I know that we're looking at just strictly drat 75 foot wetland setback but it all hinges on a few other things so I guess I'd like to just throw it back to Council. Richard, do you have something? Councilman Wing: When Highway 5 goes to 4 lanes, here we have another driveway going right into the new highway. Why is that? Aren't we thinking service roads or what's going to happen to this house when we go to 4 lanes? In the near future. Charles Folch: At this point Highway 5 is only programmed to a 4 lane out to TH 41. Mnl)ot really has no indication as far as timing and such from there on after. Conceivably at some point in the future, it is possible ' that that segment could be a 4 lane. In terms of a controlled access ... for a frontage road, I guess that really hasn't been studied at this point in time. I know we do have a similar situation just west of here on Lone Cedar where we kind of created a little frontage road to serve a couple lots there to help gain direct frontage off TH 5 and that was directly related to their request. It was them more wanting to get off direct access onto TH 5. But City Council Meeting -January 10, 1994 ' that issue really hasn't been valued in tarns of this parcel. It would to me that to have that driveway coming out onto a very narrow 2 lane, 55 appear , Councilman Wing: mph road in the middle of nowhere is going to demand turn lanes. I can't even comprehend allowing a driveway to go into that position even if though there's good sight lines either direction. But to suddenly have cars pulling in and out of that driveway and then slowing down onto, the traffic on Highway 5, doesn't seem to , be in the city's best interest or anybody elses.. I guess Mr. Mayor and C o� unc t, my frustration e've argued and property has known to exist for many, many, many years and the Arboretum g it and the Park and Rec should have never allowed this to happen. It should have been purchased by the . Arboretum, ourselves. It should have gone into a passive park. rig di no i.N it's ue chose by t o buy e ' else. It's up here for development and I don't think we have a Y We chose not to take it into our own park system and do what we knew was right in the first place, and we knew we didn't want it developed. It was the first thing in the Highway 5 corridor that w o diussed how many times has the Arboretum discussed that parcel and they haven't done anything I guess I' Dot about to say, with one exception. I don't think you should put the access onto Highway 5 and if we o think a that should be dealt with before we approve this. I don't think we shoo the having n't ma have any right to , driveway right in the middle of a freeway stretch$ fat aces proposal another issue. I think that has to be dealt say no to because we've already let this go by. with, as much as the Mayor's concerns about the building and soils so, those two issu es II have befo d that, they approve this. I'd like to see both those answered and clarified before I would approve , have a right to develop it. We chose not to. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Colleen. ' Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well, I have a couple questions and someone stop me if I'm incorrect. Our ordinance is 150 feet but we can go above and beyond probably what the rest of the State requires? In terms of, statewise it's generally 75 feet? Sharmin AI -Jaffa '!'hat's correct. ' Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay. bot And a h borings p and both of our sites were good in terms of the soil borings and yard and I know that we had good it still cost us $9,000.00 to put in and I'm wondering about the financial hardship that you're getting Yourself in for Mr. Papke. You know $30,000.00 to $35,000.00 for city sewer and water, whether g, ink it in or not I th you're going to face those same costs. Now if we, if a mound system does go in, Steve and this is directed mostly towards you. From what I understand, I mean if you put up a big enough hill of sand, it can percolate through and by the time it gets down to ground level, the water's basically clean. Steve Kirchrnan: That's correct. ' Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay. So if you want a big hill in your back yard, I don't know. I'm not trying to ut I'm saying there are going to be huge costs involved here and I know that from protect you from yourself b s I would b personal experience. I guese comfortable seeing a few more soil borings as well to make sure there , , how do you measure are acceptable sites because they were hard brought up b know a good poinThat s all I have to say right etc and I hadn't even thought of what now. 1 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 ' Mayor Chmiel: Michael. Councilman Mason: I think this is going to be one of those things that does come back to us one step at a time. ' I understand, I think I understand why staff is recommend the variance and I think I understand why Board of Adjustment and Appeals denied it unanimously. Under the circumstances 1, at this point in time and I think for this variance, I agree with what Richard is saying. I don't think Council has a right to say no. I do think as ' more variances come along the line, the building permit for example, and I know you're aware of that. You know, and I admire Mr. Papke's patience because I suspect this will take a number of years to figure out one way or the other. I have some personal feelings about buildability on that lot but that's not the issue right here. I see the issue as right now just being this and because there is the hardship there, I guess, well I don't guess. I ' think Council should in fact approve this one. But I think it as one step at a time. P, J Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Mark. Councilman Senn: I guess on this I haven't really changed my mind from where I sat on it as it relates to Board of Adjustments and Appeals. We had a couple meetings on it to talk about it. Looked at it very hard. From my standpoint I just cannot justify in my own mind saying yes because I think we should say no and I think the no is because there's no way we should allow a septic system at this elevation within 75 feet of the lake. We - have enough problems with our lakes and in terms of the stuff going into them right now. We don't have good grades on any of them that I'm aware of and this situation only aggravates that. I drink this property should be allowed to develop but I think it should be allowed to develop at the right time. The right time is when sewer and water is available to the site and I think that also comes back and deals with a lot of the issues over access and that sort of thing because really the point, that's all going to be resolved and sewer and water's going to go in is you know when the roadway probably expands. And I think this is premature and we're being asked to approve on a variance and I just can't again justify, at least in my mind, a variance for that type of situation. Mayor Chmiel: True. And this will come back each year if he's looking at 3 years down the road. He'll have to come back to Council 3 different times too for that to become valid. Mike. Councilman Mason: Question Steve on mound systems. I'm only mildly familiar with them because in the northern part of the State on the lakes you can't have outhouses anymore and lots and this that and they're all going to mound systems up there. And there are some right essentially on the lake and the State apparently says that's no problem. The mound systems are going to work. Do you have that much faith, do you have as much faith as the State does in them? Steve Kirchman: If they're properly installed and they've been in use for 20 -25 years in this state and other states and if they're properly installed, properly maintained, they'll work as well as any other on site sewage treatment and as well as, if not better than any municipal sewage treatment. Councilman Senn: According to present thought. You know and that gets to be the real amusing part here because I went through this up north and we were required to move the system or put in a closed system and we could have put it in closer to the lake if we had put in a closed system. Well now the State says, closed systems, which they were saying at that time were the cat's meow, are the worst thing in the world. And you keep looking at this and again it's proximity to the lake and I just, who's going to guarantee that the residues aren't going to end up in the lake and I just have a real hard time with that. Mayor Chmiel: Richard. 8 E 9 ' u ' Ci ty Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Councilman Wing: Well I guess one thing Mark has said does trouble me is, when the entire lake and the entire city on the lakes has gone to sewer, a metro sewer system, why would we want to grant a variance to put in a septic system? I mean if this maybe could fit in on it's existing land but to have to even go further to grant ' variance, I think you've got a good point. We're bending the rules for something we don't want in the first per• of bending the , Councilman Mason: Well I guess I don't see'granting a variance, in a hardship case, as a matter rules. I see what you're saying but there's a special set of circumstances here unlike anything else on the lake. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion? If hearing none, I would entertain a motion to also include as ' item 14 some additional soils borings of the recommendations for the conditions as such. Councilman Wing: And I would like to add number 15 would be a rather thorough study of the highway and ' access that that lot may create in that location. There's no shoulders there. There's no turn off whatsoever. You have to turn in a traffic lane. I don't think that's appropriate. Mayor Chmiel: We just recently corrected a location there by putting in a service toad because of a car being hit so that does have some. Councilman Mason: Yeah I wonder Dick. I think that that's something that has to be looked at. I wonder if ' that should be tacked onto this one. Just because they're separate issues. I don't know. Councilman Wing: Yeah, I don't know how to handle that. I would yield to whatever Council feels. , Councilman Senn: The question is, where else can it be tacked on? Councilman Mason: Well I don't know. I don't know. I'm just throwing it out. ' Mayor Chmiel: I think too though, putting it down as a separate additional item, it should be looked at and that way it's going to be covered Councilman Wing: But the soil borings don't relate to that septic system. They relate to the building so that's really a separate issue also. , Councilman Senn: Did I understand your's to be a motion Don? Mayor Chmiel: No. I just added one item to that. For additional discussion. Roger. ' Roger Knutson: Just for a point of clarification. If this is granted, staff and myself have to implement it. When you say look at the access, the highway access issue. I'm not sure. Do they have the variance and you want staff to look at the highway access issue, and what if we find the highway access is bad or good or indifferent? Do they still get to have the variance? Councilman Mason: Well I guess that's why I made that comment earlier. This is dealing with the mound system. They still have to get building permits. They still have to do this. They still have to do that. ' Councilman Senn: But none of those other things require them to come back. When they get a permit they do. To get a building permit they do. They don't have to come back to Council to have conditions attached and... ' 9 ' u Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Ci ty , Mayor Chmiel: If they comply with all conditions they don't have to come back, that's right. ' Councilman Senn: I mean that's not a condition that could be tacked on at that point if that's a legitimate concern. Roger Knutson: I'm just trying to understand what you want done. Do you want staff to look into the access ' issue independent of this? Just look into it and see if a design solution should be, or something should be done there? ' rea lly the jurisdictional authority on granting whether it would be acceptable Charles Folch: In terms of access, t or not is MnDot. I guess if the applicant is able to grant, or get a permit gran t from MnDot on their trunk highway, I'm sure if MnDot is concerned about it, they probably attach some conditions in terms o� la - oi~ ' Acceleration lanes. Deceleration lanes. Things like that. But if they were able to acquire a Perms I mean that pretty well addresses the access issue from that standpoint. They're the jurisdictional authority on that trunk highway. ' Mayor Chmiel: Okay. But on either of those for acceleration or deceleration. That would be MnDot's responsibility. Who's cost is, who gets the cost from that particular acceleration lane? Charles Folch: I believe the applicant for the access. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. ' Councilman Wing: The other option would be to table this until we have that information and the soil borings completed as requested. ' Councilwoman Dockendorf. I'd be more comfortable with that. ' Mayor Chmiel: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I think it's worth, there are enough outstanding question for me that I would also like it tabled so we could look into those two issues. ' Steve Kirchman: Could I have another point of clarification Mr. Mayor? ' Mayor Chmiel: Go ahead. Steve Kirchman: On the soil borings, were you concern ed about soil borings for the septic site a for the ' structure? Mayor Chmiel: I'm concerned for the septic as well. Steve Kirchman: Normally, before we approve the site, we do get additional borings and if borings are suitable, then they get a permit. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, but I want to make sure those borings are taken and that's why I'm putting it as an r additional condition. 1 10 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Councilman Senn: And by tabling it, are you asking ... come back to us? Councilwoman Dockendorf: I guess that's a good clarification Steve because I mean if thn� about the ' are going to b e done in order to build, to get the permit to build, then I don t have any co permit. Or excuse me, the variance. If those additional borings are a concern whether it's- buildable or not. you take additional borings, pollutant you want some in and ' Mayor Chmiel: I guess my concerns with those, even though g Y comes from that adjacent to what's there. What my concern is so that the additional, if any mound in itself, it's going to be going directly into the lake. From an environmental aspect, that's my concern. , So I want to make sure there's soil borings taken within a 10 foot interval on either side of that, just to make sure. , Councilman Senn: Well this may die but I'm going to move. Mayor Chmiel: Just a minute. Before you move, the applicant would like to say something. Would you like to come up to the podium? , Jeff Papke: Just a quick point of clarification. I know when Sharmin showed the plat before, there are �'O�� we that are required as part of that ..and I di and ty and Steve was there clear nd did witness those. o initial He didr ay those ' did were with a different layout o t prop out a little differently to provide a better access when before we would approve anything we knew where our house would go and be m i s we'd have to retest those areas. Actually before the permit ' it'd require retesting the soils. And in term the be so stru cture borings soil as the that s�� is and we agreement 'intent re that's one of the provisions ... is that there would agreement with that. , Councilwoman Dockendorf. So let me understand. The borings that were done aren't any good anyway? Jeff Papke: No, they were okay. Councilwoman Dockendorf: No, I'm saying but you've changed your footprint so. Jeff Papke: Actually one of them is in the existing 50 x 100 foot area and the back -up site we moved slightly ' and we would have to have that one tested. Before a permit would be granted. Mayor Chmiel: Who do you have do your soil borings? , Jeff Papke: Ron Hill. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. ' Councilman Mason: Well I think the access issue is out of our hands, isn't it? ' re COMM Mayor Chmiel: it's MnDot s re s po nsibility, that's co Councilman Mason: And it sounds to me, Don with what's just been said about that, are you okay with ' additional borings that Mr. Papke 's planning on making? 11 ' City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Mayor Chmiel: Yes. As long as they're going to cover some of the areas that are concerned, my concerns are. Just like again going back to County Road 17. Took some borings and all of a sudden- started digging and there ' were the problems. Councilman Mason: I will move approval of Variance Request #93 -9 for 75 foot wetland setback for the location of a septic system with the conditions as stated in the report. Including the Building Official recommendations which do talk about the two borings on each site sewage. Sewage treatment site. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is there a second? Without a second, I think it's going to die. Is there another motion? ' Councilman Senn: I'd like to move that we uphold the Board of Adjustments and Appeals decision to deny the variance on the basis that the property should be developed when sewer and water becomes available to it. And that we should stick to our policy and not allow a septic system within this close distance to the lake. Councilman Wing: I'm going to second that Mr. Mayor and that second is, with these other issues in my mind also. It's not a clear cut building site and I'm going to go along with Mark on that. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Some discussion. Roger. Where does that put the City? In what position by making that recommendation. Roger Knutson: It would be a decision. When you deny anything like this, I think our past policy has been to direct myself to prepare Findings of Fact. You need a record of...so the motion would be to direct me to prepare Findings deny it. I'm not telling you how to vote but that's. Councilman Senn: So amended. i Mayor Chmiel: I would suggest that we do that only from a standpoint in the event.that the applicant or the ' property owner were to come back at the City with a suit, this would give us some substantial backing as far as that's concerned. We have a motion on the floor with a second. Any other discussion? ' Councilman Mason: This is a lot of record isn't it? ' Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Councilman Mason: And in the past if we tell somebody that a lot of record isn't buildable, how's the city 1 culpable? Roger Knutson: The purpose in granting a variance is to grant a deviation from standards when if you do not grant that deviation it deprives them all reasonable use of the property. That's what a variance is all about. If you deny someone all reasonable use of their property, indefinitely, you could have a taking. When can you deny someone all reasonable use of their property? I could spend hours trying to simplify this point but in a nutshell, if you can demonstrate that the proposed use will cause a demonstratable pollution to the lake, for ' example could cause ... harm, then you have a basis for denying the variance. The courts look very carefully at any decision that says you can't use your property. Very carefully. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. ' 12 I 13 1 Council Meeting City Coun g - January 10, 1994 ' Councilman Senn: Again I don't, and Michael again. I guess I want to dust clarify my motion. I'm not saying I they should be able to use it, but there's a right time to be able to use they shouldn't use their property. think it. And I'm going to liken it to a lot of other discussions we've had out on Highway 5. In terms of land use The MUSA line ' and other things that are happening. There's a right time for it and there's a wrong time for it. governs when the right time is and a wrong time is in a lot of things. I think a variance is the same type of a tool. Can it basically say this is a right time or a wrong time? ' Roger Knutson: ...to a certain extent yes, I would agree with you. You don't necessarily have a right to that for a reasonable length of time. Not develop the property today. At least that's my. You can postpone But for reasonable length of time. When I send out the Findings to you, if that ' forever and not indefinitely. a passes, I will feel more comfortable explaining this in some detail in a letter to you. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, and with that motion and with a second, are you both acceptable to the Findings of Fact? ' Okay. I will call the motion and the motion is seconded. Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Wing seconded to direct the City � edge o a a wetland. of feet from th r. ' Fact denying the Variance Request #93 -9 to locate a septi y y� Councilman Mason voted in Dockendorf Councilman Senn and Councilwoman Chmiel and Councilman Wing we silent. The motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. opposition. Mayor ' Mayor Chmiel: It's been called as a motion with two ayes and three abstentions which indicate as an aye vote. Councilman Mason: No. I misunderstood Don. Let's repeat that again. Or let's go over that again I blanked out. Mayor Chmiel: Alright. We have a motion on the floor with a second. The question was called. All those in favor say aye. Councilman Senn and Councilwoman Dockendorf said aye. , Councilman Mason stated nay. Councilman Wing: I suppose it's too late for any discussion. , Mayor Chmiel: Yes it is. Councilman Wing: If not, I'll abstain. ' thing here as far as I'm concerned' With the one no and two ayes and two Mayor Chmiel: It's not the easiest quiet votes indicate that those are ayes. Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, I think it's really important that my silence really is with concern. I really I Mike had some vev points. l brou ,the very awkward support Mark's position but think piece oA lid points. The further movement on this issue is really going right on the lake and access to the t e property all around and that we're having a variance for septic system road and the soils. ' 13 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 ' Mayor Chmiel: And I think by the vote it's indicating that to the proposed person going to build on there for a single family residence. So there's a lot of considerations that are going to be looked at and continued to looked at and hopefully the building department is going to follow through with that. Okay, that motion is passed and i we'll move onto the next agenda item. COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT TO CHANGE THE LAND USE DESIGNATION FROM RESIDENTIAL LOW DENSITY TO RESIDENTIAL MEDIUM DENSITY AND CONCEPTUAL PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT FOR 26 SINGLE FAMILY ZERO LOT LINE UNITS ON 13A7 ACRES LOCATED ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF HIGHWAY 7 BETWEEN WASHTA BAY. ROAD AND ARBOR DRIVE, SPINNAKER WHARF, BOYER BUILDING CORPORATION. Public Present: Name Address Joe & Sue Fiedler 3121 Dartmouth Drive Jim & Jo Ginther 3131 Dartmouth Drive Joe & Eileen Boyer 3630 Virginia Avenue, Deephaven Joleen & Rob Roy 3110 Dartmouth Drive Lee Clark 603 Lake Street, Excelsior Tom Merz 3201 Dartmouth Drive Mary Jo Moore 3231 Dartmouth Drive John Blumentritt Boyer Building Corporation Bob Boyer Boyer Building Corporation ' Kate Aanenson: The Boyer Corporation is requesting to rezone 13.47 acres of property for approximately 26 zero lot line or clustered single family developments. In order to make this project occur two things are going to have to occur. Rezoning and a Comp Plan Amendment. Currently the way the ordinance reads, in order to allow for a cluster of this type of development, the Comp Plan amendment is required because the ordinance requires... single family, the RSF zone the smallest lot size would be 11,000 square feet. Only the medium density area are cluster developments allowed. So again..a Comp Plan amendment would be required. Staff was reluctant to ... medium density at this point. We felt it would be more ... to do a Comp Plan amendment. But ' in doing that you open up the application on the 5,000 square foot lots, which was a concern that the Planning Commission had, which we'll get into later. If I could briefly walk through the project ... bordered on the north by Highway 7. It's kind of—road topography and it has this unusual dredged channel that comes up through the ' property. Instead of having significant.-through a private street. The development itself, the 26 homes that I mentioned would probably be similar or may be slightly larger than the existing homes that are there. They range, entirely completely finished up to 3,000 square feet. Again ... the type of homes that are found ...There are two wetlands on the site. One an ag urban that runs along the existing channel and the other is a natural ' wetland. There are some poor soils in the area around the channel, which again this is just concept that we would need further study on to define whether or not those ...The original plan showed a connection, and this is a concern of the neighborhood. The connection of Dartmouth Drive over to Washta Bay Road. In looking at that with the staff and the topography, going across the channel and the degregation of the site, we felt that it'd probably be better to leave the existing access off of the Arbor/Dartmouth Drive which again is a concern of the neighbors going out. There was another issue that the staff investigated that wasn't acceptable to the applicant and that was using the existing older home on the site. Just off of Dartmouth Drive. It does have direct access ' 14 f! Councilman Wing: Is it to Council already? I Mayor Chmiel: Well no. I thought you wanted to say something• You started to move and I thought you wanted to. I 15 , Ci ty Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 onto Highway 7. We looked at possibly putting a cul- de-sac on the end of this and bringing that street up. This wasn't desirable for the applicant since he stated that these two homeowners would then be double fronted, although this would be a cul-de -sac and this sweet would tie up into Shorewood. Make that a T intersection, that , would be desirable but the developer is reluctant and has stated that those two homes, that was not desirable for lot of concern with the neighbors was the beachlot. The applicant them. The other issue on this was, that was a was asking for, again this is a PUD. It opens up what the number of boats they were looking for. One dock One being if this was developed slip per unit which would be 26. Staff looked at this a couple different ways. in the traditional single family and you could get maybe 6 lots on the Lakeshore and each could have 3 boats, that would give you a fixed number. And if you look at the beachlot ordinance and said ff you a beachlot, of 3 docks, 3 per dock, that would allow you 9. Originally staff had recommended you could have a maximum and the 12 but in rethinking it, we feel that based on the fact that we've gone through that hearing process The as I mentioned, would be private internally. The number of boats, that 9 may be more appropriate. streets• department is recommending that there be a cul-de -sac in this area here to allow far maintenance of in ' engineering our streets. The other issue as far as parks and recreation, they recommended taking full Park and trail fees approval of the rezoning and the Comp Plan lieu of park dedication. With that, staff would recommend Just to update you that with the Planning Commission, they spent a lot of time discussing this and amendment. really were reluctant to come up with a consensus. They passed it onto you without any final determination. to come up with what the smallest lot size would be One of their major issues is, a lot of the time that we spent came with the 11,000 square feet. In the past they've even turned some of those down and they in RSF, we were really reluctant to apply this city wide going down to a 5,000 square foot lots. So basically they didn't to some more feedback from you to see if this is the direction you ' make a recommendation. They wanted get really wanted to go with the lot smaller lots in the residential single family zone. As I stated, the only way to make this project happen would be rezone the property to medium density and the staff felt that was With that we recommend, or the staff had recommended approval with the ' inappropriate at this time because ... conditions. But then the Planning Commission just deferred it to you... Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thank you Kate. Just one quick question that I had. By making this a PUD, what is the , city really getting from this? Councilwoman Dockendorf. Echo, echo. ' Councilman Wing: Be specific. Kate Aanenson: Specifically? All the units are pulled to the water You water that s running There is a pro blem of storm adjacent to Highway 7. If you pull those away. from Shorewood into this area that's going directly into the lake which will be resolved with a nutrient pond of that picking this up. Preservation of the natural shoreline. We'd recommend clustering on one... preservation be away from that existing shoreline. They wouldn't have direct ' natural wetland. So all the units would pulled access onto that and just the preservation of the channel with all the development on the other side of that also. , Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Richard? Councilman Wing: Is it to Council already? I Mayor Chmiel: Well no. I thought you wanted to say something• You started to move and I thought you wanted to. I 15 , 1 1 t City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Councilman Wing: Well no. Mayor Chmiel: Maybe I misinterpreted the move. Councilman Wing: I've just got other questions of staff but I don't think it's appropriate now. Mayor Chmiel: Fine. Okay, at this time we'll have the developer go through their proposal so we can see what you're really bringing forth to the Council. If you'd just introduce yourself please. John Blumentritt: Thank you. To the members of the Chanhasse City Council. Good evening. My name is John Blumentritt. I am a member of the Boyer Building Corporation design team. I want to thank Kate for a nice job of the introductory summary. I think that she has touched upon a lot of the basics that we understand are going to be detail issues that need to be resolved. I'd like to walk us through this Spinnaker Wharf project and I'd like to do that by, just for a moment digressing and giving the City Council a brief planning history. About 9 months ago the Boyer Building Corporation office staff got together to discuss what possibilities existed for the site. We knew that the property was zoned single family residential but we weren't quite sold that this was the ideal family site. We looked at the existing property to the west. We found single family housing. We looked to the east and similar family housing. We looked to the south and of course Lake Mmnewashta which has a beautiful view and what else could we ask for. But it was to the north that created the problem and that being Highway 7. I'm not sure what your opinion might be but to us ... Toad has a traffic count of between 17 and 19,000 cars per day and children simply don't mix. We decided to look at other housing options where there was single family around. Out of all the options, what is it that we want to do. Do we want to build low income housing? Certainly some of the zoning laws encourage some of that Do we want to build elderly rental housing? Kitty corner across from this property we saw one other applicant going before the City of Shorewood. Still ... but we wanted to look at it as being. Did we want to build family? Did we want to build empty nesters? Did we want to build retirement? Did we want to build elderly? What was it that we actually wanted to build? Now as you can see we chose the empty nester market for a great deal of reasons but let us be more specific. A, it uses the land most effectively. B, the clustering offers ... in security as the home buyers, the empty nester home buyers... C, through establishing an association the grounds and the buildings would be commonly maintained. Now we recognize in the staff report, that through the staff report, that many agencies need to make many decisions before we are even able to break ground and indeed this City Council will hear two more planning, or will see two more planning stages with hopefully all of these agencies delivering a lot of decisions before you grant your final decision. We made a mistake at the Planning Commission level. We allowed a lot of unresolved details to interfere with what the true purpose of why we were here. Yes, there's going to be discussions about traffic. Yes, there's going to be discussions about what is the lakeshore and not lakeshore. Yes, there's going to be discussions about boat dockage. Yes, there's going to be discussions about wetlands and other issues. But these are details to the overall reason of why we are here. This is a concept. An idea. A vision if you will. And what we need from you tonight is what do you think of it? You know is this is a good idea to pursue...get rid of it. Do you care about the growing or the graying of the American people, because this is indeed what we're trying to pursue. Do we care about providing a house for mom and dad or grandma and grandpa? And having that integrate with the neighborhood or be segregated from a neighborhood. 1 think these are viable issues. I recognize and they're probably difficult issues. We recognize that. We really do. But again, you'd have to, we have to have your consent on this concept level in order to move on to expending a tremendous amount of time with ground referral agencies that won't be involved in this. Certainly a whomping sum of money as far as the Boyer Building Corporation is concerned. And a lot of the details will be brought up tonight will be viable issues at some point but we think that if the Council does not accept the concept plan, how could these issues, or...So I urge you. Hear the concerns of the neighbors, because a lot of these concerns to 16 t Cry i Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 are viable issues. I think they're completely legitimate. But I also urge you to hear the voicestoh ear and Those that are going to occupy e aw voices of the silent people that are not able to be represented. Thank you so much. we want this decision based on...I appreciate your time. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone else wishing to address this issue at this time? If anyone wishes to name and your address and I would like to limit the discussion to at address, please come forward. State your least 5 minutes per person if I could. Tom Merz: I think the developer has done, my name is Tom Merz and do you have that map that you could put Drive. Let's just talk about that. Let's look at that map. I live at 3201 back up. I live at 3201 Dartmouth Dartmouth Drive, which is the housing area to the west. And in that housing area it's approximately 13 acres You look at this 13 acre site and they're talking and I think there's 10-11, there's 13 homes. 10 to 11 homes. 27 homes. If look at the housing area to the east, and you look at the density. My concern yo that we What about you get treated, because we came out and bought this home, bought this area and we had a zoning• impact of this concentrated density and you're running doing is you're impacting what I feel is you're taking the it out Dartmouth Drive and down Arbor Lane and You re impacting what we say is a very passiv 3 or 41ots along Dartmouth Drive whether you're going to rezone, I guess perhaps maybe You should take those we can sell that and put 12 condo iniuu s if yyoou''re abo ber of that you'd be and concan one the mount main that goes into our, that's, I don't want Y is the an d impacting onto our area. And my other main conc ern 800 feet of lakeshore and if you go the area look at that area, re 8 boats. If back up? When you you west, all the way out to Nae'll probably see less than 7 docks and maybe 7 or gele's Point, you to see probably 6 to 7 docks and 6 take the area east and you go towards, back in that canal again, You're going the same restrictions on thi area - if we have a home along the ' or 7 boats and what I would ask is that you put designated home with a designated dock talk about one dock and 3 boats, bring lnkeshore, that should be a we as lakeshore owners do not live under those conditions. We have one dock and one boat. We cannot is that You take and treat that area two of our buddies out there and put boats at our dock. So my concern again the rest of us who live along the , under the same conditions that you are treating a d they, y;re �ve there' . anybody who should develop this, it should be the Boyers. They're gPeOP our neighborhood, then I impacting what we call If you can find a way to contain that area so that you're not have no further—thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Tom. Is there anyone else? Jim Ginther. My name is Jim Ginther and I'm speaking for my wife Jo and myself who live at 3131 Dartmouth Drive. We're residents of Sterling Estates and our house is about 3 doors from the proposed entrance to this new subdivision. And we also are familiar with the Boyers and I concur with Tom that we know that they're very responsible people and they're quality developers, so d not our concern is the developers themselves. In fact, when we moved into this area over 20 years ago, they lived across the street and the boys who are now no developers, were young kids growing UP in that household. So we're very familiar with the family and have si concerns in that area. But specifically we do have three concerns. One is changing the zoning from loo n' single family homes to zero lot line type development. Two, the sing access to the t jet vi develo uth Drive. And three, the proposed 26 boat dock slip that is in the proposal p , I think it goes without saying that with single family development on the west, which is Staling Estates, and another single family development on the east, to put a high density development right smack in the middle of that is going to dramatically change t h e c h a racter the north f sh opmen�No� a same developer i t would be a completely different kind of nerghbo ' 17 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 developed Sterling Estates 20 years ago and who at that point in time we recognized we had single family zoning to the east of us, is now proposing to change the zoning to fit the needs at this particular time and the zoning that was established was well in place and that's the zoning that we knew about when we made the investment. Bought our lot. Developed the homes and maintain expensive homes in that area. So we believe to change the character of the entire north shore at this time would orally have a very severe negative impact on the ... and the investments and many of us have lived there now for over 20 years and plan to live there for many more. I guess the question we would have twask is why has zoning regulations, is simply all that has to happen is every time a developer decides to come along and change a piece of property, the people who have invested around that property no longer have the protection that the zoning was there and intended to be in the fast place. Secondly, we're very concerned about the congestion that this particular type of a project would bring to specifically Sterling Estates as it's approved. Or as it's proposed. And the addition of 52 cars coming in and out of that neighborhood through one access street, making multiple trips in and out of the division daily with one access we believe would have a very definite negative impact on the residents of Arbor and Dartmouth Drive. Currently there's often a 2 or 3 minute delay in exiting onto Arbor Drive, from Arbor Drive onto Highway 7. Another 50 cars is going to create truly an intolerable delay to get onto what is already a very busy ' and dangerous highway. In turn, exiting from Highway 7 onto Arbor is already a very dangerous left hand turn against traffic on an uphill basis to get into Arbor Drive. Now what we're talking about is bringing 50 more cars a day to make that left hand turn and face that oncoming traffic going uphill. It's a dangerous area now. It's been already pointed out to the City of Chanhassen. This is going to create, we believe, a very, very serious safety hazard. One more item on safety that I think is very important. There are no sidewalks in Sterling Estates. None. Consequently the people who live there, the residents, their guests, the children who live in that area, all use the streets, and specifically Dartmouth Drive and Arbor Drive for foot traffic. Now what we're talking about is an increased amount of highway car access onto those same thru streets which are also our sidewalks. And we think that again all the density onto one access is going to present an extreme safety hazard that is a very real one. The only workable and reasonable solution that we can see, if this development or a similar one would go in, would be to have a second access on the eastern border of the property, which by the way happens to have a lot also owned by another member of the Boyer family, that could possibly then allow access out to Washta Bay Road and then give two accesses onto Highway 7 and we believe to be a very workable solution to all this congestion coming out of one access or ingress and egress. The other possible suggestion could be some form of a frontage road along Highway 7 that would relieve the congestion coming out Arbor, into Arbor Drive. Finally our third concern is the excessive amount of boats contemplated and I'm pleased to hear that your staff is suggesting the smaller number because we concur that what has been proposed is really doing mirrors with the unique particular piece of lakeshore that happens to have a man made lot. Or excuse me. A man made channel coming off of Minnewashta Lake up into this particular piece of property. Normally this would be about a 600 feet piece of Lakeshore land. The DNR apparently has labeled it 1,900 feet because they're taking a shallow, narrow channel and measuring all that lakeshore on that channel. It's unbuildable. It isn't lakeshore. It's been designated already as wetland and to call that channel lakeshore is an absolute farce. It's using mirrors and it just so happens to be there and getting that designation allows the developer to leverage something for concentrated lakeshore boats that just doesn't fit any other development on Lake Minnewashta anywhere. Consequently we think that a workable solution if something like this were going in or single family homes, ought to be limited to those homes that are truly on the lake, be eligible for lakeshore, as other lake homes are. Those that are off the lake would have to be subject to the same regulations that other off Lakeshore owners have been throughout Lake Minnewashta and which is consistent with the development totally around the lake. So we think that a workable solution could be... whatever development goes in here to the same regulations that apply to a legitimate ruling of what is truly lakeshore and whatever would come off of that channel, whatever body of water that represents would be limited to something in the form of canoes, rowboats, or some form of small boat that might be accessed up into the piece of property. But to be considered 1 18 E City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 r people Lakeshore is just totally unrealistic. Finally, we've been residents there for over 20 years, as some other e We have a very sincere interest in maintaining the integrity of have ted here this evening. all have represented re resen We think it's a special resource for Chanhassen. I think it's truly the responsibility of this body, that You have in this city the DNR, the County and whatever other bodies are involved, to maintain a resource best interest of all of residents certainly no one has a greater interest maintaining that is in the you for ur time�i� aour es there and to continue there. resource than those o spend r appreciate your interest. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone else? Joe Boyer. I'm Joe Boyer. I own the property -mid we lived in, I developed Sterling Estates..Anyhow, this to tax assesses, as of last Monday—what they consider swampland-.in bole land is valuable land according your Carver County. And there's nothing wrong with this land he says. Anyhow, if youconsi Well, rtuild an a Someone call pristine r land, I'd like to have a letter to present to the tax office. th pristine area at one time. All these lots, all our members here, all our neighbors... very pristine land at one tune. lots with dredging, filling back with Now every one of those lots, every one of those owners have improved their because it was all hauled across my land. And I understand their concerns and I appreci a There used ' sand. I know comments but everything they're afraid of here are some of the things that they've done themselves. there was probably every weekend where the shores fwashed Y far to be, when we lived over there, But as being pulled at 240 horse ... the ski boats and stuff like that. And I'm sure that s like p e. We can ill afford an live there, they're going probably retirees as the people who are going to it said upscale place and we're going to wonder who in the devil said we can't have 00 square � oc�°d. Now e On area it's 15, feet of land. gross 26 homes, we will each own 15,000 square of Sterling Estates• But when we We don't want to be a Part don't really claim to be a part of Sterling Estates. ad develop that area with your City Engineer... engineer. 1966. Archie Carter. And the reason that because Archie was planning future extension goes down between the Bob Roy's, over that land, is And so that's already established. all the existing lots have Plus development in there. a been dredged and sand hauled in and chemicals app het kill the weeds and then they all have 3 boats. dock, plus canoe for the kids to play with. Snowmobiles and part of the rowboat to get up to the swimming use trouble here are the accesses that have been granted° don' existing en residents. n oat on i if I don do that next boats I live in Deephaven. I have dockage. I don't use for is one boat per resident, And . All we're askrhg I'll lose it but the boat dockage shouldn't be a problem you're talking about than what year if you say 35, 50% of the people will use tat h privilege, it won't be any more We have to have something to sell. We can't go in and now. But what we have to have are some amenities. $300,000.00 houses and offer nothing. You can't use the lake. The neighbors don't like you using their are build lake. Well it's not their lake. And these people will be as responsible as we are. I think our concerns We to leave the lake in a little better condition than what it similar to the people who are complaining. want property was. That's what I did in Sterling Estates ... When we first moved in over there, the lake smelled like w and it into my p Excelsior sewer ponds over there. Same thing. was pumping their sewers Archie Carter and Bill Schcell from Schcell and Madsen decided that that lake ' went down into the lake. And so be area with a vegetated swaled area. With the small trees and brush or anything Planted access should a swaled , on it but...wanted to blacktop it so we blacktopped it. Then later on after we moved away, somebody We went to the city and got stuck for putting complained and they went underground. A culvert put in there. to the road, and you have the stale fermenting an underground culvert in there. Now you brought the water up more water comes down and pollutes the lake. I don't water in that culvert which every time it rains more and t into that one because Schcell and Madsen and Archie Carter m does ?lu e dead know who talked the city against that one. Then you talk about a trail system. Where are you going ' 19 ' City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 1 11 the trail system hook into anything? Where is there another trail system? There's no trail system down along the lakeshore. You can't traverse in front of other people's Lakeshore down there because they'd be in big trouble. But these same people train their dogs on my property, right? And the snowmobile tracks is tremendous... to put a house on that property, the way it is now with snowmobiles going by every 2 minutes. We don't need that kind of a trail system. But our Lakeshore, like somebody said here, is pristine ... The only reason it is muddy over where in Sterling Estates was before we bought the property, Mrs. Bodell was there for quite a few years. And during World War 11, with her austerity program, she brought in steers and talking to the caretaker, he said that on the warm days that those cattle were down in the water and they just ruin the beaches. Well they never did recover you know and so it's really what these people had, if they wanted a nice area, they had to do some work on it. And our area, now it hasn't any traffic on it and the ... nice sandy lakeshore. And whether we have docks on there or not, I suppose doesn't really matter. If we had docks on the channel, it'd be fine. In talking to the assessor's office last Monday, they contend that's all lakeshore and I know I'm being assessed for it because my taxes on that property, last year were $11,800.00. My taxes this year are a little less ... so I know we have to do something. I can't afford to pay taxes on property that's unbuildable. Or that we can't get a permit on. And the assessor's office considers it valuable property. Let's see, what else? I think that's about it. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thank you Joe. Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else? Joe Boyer: Thank you. Mary Jo Moore: Good evening. I'm Mary Jo Moore, 3231 Dartmouth Drive. I'm a resident of Minnewashta Shores which is adjacent to the west of Sterling Estates and I just wanted to add my objection to the changing of the zoning for this area I think it probably is a buildable lot. It's a beautiful piece of property. I would like to keep it at the same density that it is zoned for currently and also restrict the boatage. Lake Minnewashta, as I've been here before you many times, is just getting over crowded with boats as are all of our lakes and I want to protect that natural resource. Plus the traffic and I'm just adding my opinion to Mr. Ginther and the others. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Joe Fiedler: My name is Joe Fiedler. I live at 3121 Dartmouth Drive. I've been there 18 years. When we turn off of Highway 7 onto Arbor, Arbor Road goes directly into my front yard so this traffic is going to be a big deal for me ... The thing that I like about our lake and we go out there to drive around, there's just beautiful single family homes just the way we thought it was going to stay. I don't like the idea of always looking up there ... high density housing. So I'm not for the project period. I don't think it should be, that the zoning should change at all. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Joe. Anyone else? Bob Boyer: My name is Bob Boyer and I'm representing the developer.-.I really do appreciate the concerns of 1 the neighborhood. Their concerns are important to us, as well as to you. What you've heard is probably not uncommon. There's usually a certain amount of opposition to any development, particularly at this stage. I think what we want to do is, by way of reiteration of what John said, was note the concerns of the citizens. The people living in the area, and we do have some areas of agreement I think obviously on this development. But 20 E 21 ' City Council Meetin g - January 10, 1994 ' keeping our eyes on our objective tonight, which is to request that the City Council would consider a rezoning of for is that if we can all put ourselves back 20-30 years ago when this area. The reason we're asking that simply addressed, we were addressing a different type of demographic group of people. a lot of these zoning issues were The post war era. We were concerned about growing families and at the time, most all desirable zoning areas b ecause that was the housing type of demand. That's what people were zoned single family residential simply were buying and that's what cities were providing. Today we' re dealing with a slightly different demographic And these by the thousands, by the millions, ' group. We're dealing with a growing, aging population. people, are requesting that the cities that they raised their families in, cities like Chanhassen' provide alternative housing density. The already is types such as what we're providing here. We're not asking for additional property is 1.9 units per acre which is slightly less than what it's zoned m zoned for half acre lots. What were propos for. We're not asking for additional density. We're reconfiguring the housing so as to take advantage of the does have a lot of wetlands making it a difficult site to build unique topographical features of the site. The site it's a lot of natural beauty as well and I think by cluster building we can meet needs, the on. But yet got security needs s the people in the area, of the people that will be living here, as well as maintaining the We've done this before. I think we've integrity of the lakeshore and a lot of the natural beauty. of the development in Shorewood. We've also recently done some work with. It's turned issue is got some photographs out beautiful and I recommend all of you to go over and take a look at it again... Certainly the traffic we want to address. And th ere area number something we want to address. The dockage is certainly something of other issues the planning staff has brought up that we do want to talk about. But tonight what we're asking City of Chanhassen want to consider this you to do is just simply say is this a viable housing type. Does the type of housing in that particular area. Rob Roy: My name is Rob Roy. I live at 3110 Dartmouth Drive d I'm the Boy�slyliave of sing impacted by I the development because I'm right at the mouth of it. other I like this program because of the lots an d as far as the density issue, one way or the o , half And I've also homes on acre value of the homes that can be both close to Highway 7 and close to the lake. I'm fine with that. one the things that, there's a number of issues that seen their work and by the way I'm also related to them. of me but it's my understanding that this is not the time to talk about the boating or the traffic and so concern forth, correct? or is this the time to voice our concerns about this now? r basically are, it should be expressed at this time. Mayo r Chmiel: Whatever your concerns Rob Roy: So there won't be another meeting or? Well I'll take the time to do it then. Can I have a map major areas of pollution into Lake Minnewashta. I hear all of my neighbors please of the site plan? The three talk about it but they've never bothered addressing it. No, I need the other one first. There's an open storm that dumps a lot of pollution into Lake Minnewashta. It's down on our That t sewer that J talked about we met about some time ago and I raise it again. This will be the fourth time I've brought this up. want to address it or if there's more problems associated than 1 City, I don't know hasn't addressed it. Doesn't another drainage area which the Boyers are addressing, and now I need that site have been told There's also plan, yeah. With the pond here and that's going to take care of those, part of the problem over in Shorewood. the City's, and the Boyers are addressing , The other part is located down in this area here. And these two are a chance in this developm an taku►g aog �m ething this one. What I would like to see about Is do right and slap talking care o the for the city to something putting in a road this way and building another settling pond here so this area totally will be filtered, rather than One that's sort of mine is of course the traffic what we currently have right now. It would solve two issues. have access out to Washta Bay Road. You'd also settle this pollution problem that's cominte � 'pa and you'd it's from across Highway 7 and building a sediment pond. And I think the city should parti ' again 21 ' 1 ri 0 1 These are existing, I think the city ought to clean up it's act in our neighborhood, which is the drainage that's in the outlot area. As far as my neighbors feel, my neighbors talk about a pristine and taking care of the lake as long as, and that issue was never addressed and it should be. So here's a chance to clean up 3 areas. Well, two in this one development. If the city would take another access because the land is available from Washta Bay Road into this development. When you talk about lakeshore I'm reminded of when we were here for our� and the statement was made to me by Councilmember Wing and as he stated ... when you have the props of lakeshore, which it has been designated by the DNR, to be legal and fully developable. If you meet the requirements as you did, as you mentioned Richard, you have the legal requirements, you're allowed the boat dockage. I don't have a problem with boat dockage. They talk about the pollution ndso forth �h and boats, I'd just like to see people quit using chemical fertilizers on their lawn an d dump more ds so forth and start, instead of talking the talk, walking the walk. Again, as far as the rezoning is concerned, I'd like to see it rezoned this way because I think we're going to get a higher quality of development in there on the dollar basis and on the off...towards Highway 7 there will be a better value than if there was single family homes. I also look at the traffic issue from single family homes. If we have families in there, and the Boyer's are allowed to develop 26 home sites, of single family homes, then I see teenagers and children. I see a lot more traffic than I do with this development. If you haven't seen the p l an . There's one master bedroom upstairs and one bedroom downstairs for guests. 3,000 square feet. So when I look at this development, to me this is more attractive. Especially the traffic area that I'm located in. And one of the council sug gested was nen I'll be bounded by three block off or planning sides block of hi or road, tannadkleI find tl►at�very unacceptable. Thank You- Mayor Chmiel: Thanks. Anyone else? uncil k Blumentritt: For the purpose of the City Coing why we are pursuing the rezoning, can 'request either from Kate or Paul to explain what the current Comp Plan allows and doesn't allow. Just as a refresher and also for the purpose of the neighborhood also to understand why we are rezoning this Property- mayor Chmiel: Kate, would you like to do that? Kate Aanenson: Currently this property is zoned residential single family. The way the PUD ordinance allows now, the smallest lot you could go would be 11,000 square feet and again you'd have to average it to 15—The only way a 5,000 square foot lot would be allowed would be under the medium density so we'd have to zone for a higher density. As I indicated earlier, staff would be reluctant to do just a straight board rezoning. If this project was dropped and someone else picked it up. We felt that it would probably be more-if we'd go ahead and make a Comp Plan amendment allowing clustering in the low density development. So that's what the issues, part of this rezoning. Comp Plan amendment. Mayor Chmiel: okay, thank you. Nancy Mancino: So that would be city wide? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Nancy Mancino: That would be in those areas, � could do 5,000? sin Wit f amil y average of tha ,000 wo uld after this, he works through half that thing if Tom Merz: Could you re- explain that. I didn't get what she was, could you re- explain that? How you're -00 22 1 23 City Council Meeting _ Janu 10, 1994 taking this piece of property and allowing 27, You're allowing 5,000, you're allowing a ho me for 5,000 square feet. Is that what you said? Kate Aanenson: We're allowing the clustering. Yeah, the overall density is still, as we indicated in the staff if it developed as regular 15,000 square foot lots. report, the overall density is similar to was out roads and criteria. If it was developed as 15,000 square foot lots based on the usable net t�hosee out over 26, 15,000 is, instead of spread those ' wetlands, they could get 26 units. What we've said here foot lots, we're clustering those units. Putting more common Spam and 5,000 square foot lots. square the PUD. 26 -5,000 square foot lots and the rest would be common space an Mayor Chmieh Okay. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Excuse me Mr. Mayor. And would that defacto be saying for all other PUD's, as of 5,000 as opposed to 11,000. ' Nancy pointed out, that we would be changing our ordinance to a minimum Mayor Chmiel: That's just about close. Yes. Paul Krauss: The average, the 15,000 square foot average is still there so you're not all of a sudden going to see 20 homes on an acre. , allowing more flexibility with our PUD ordinance' Councilwoman Dockendorf: No, we're just Kate Aanenson: The density's still there. They're just clustering it. Paul Krauss: One of the problems is the building sdea itself- Single we thdetached ce� if these units wo were are kind of a newer phenomenum and aren Y ific. But because they stuck together and had common walls, we would know how to handle it and...more spec' it's treated as a single family, a standard broke them apart, it becomes a free standing single family home and And clearly that's the problem in this development. single family homesite. Councilman wing One other question I'd have, as long as you have the floor is, the last few that have come not having cul- de-sacs. Or the ' su And this one, it's not even mentioned. It seems like if through here, we've been really adamant and you've really one being restricted or multiple access into these areas. a road and have an access into this area. there's adequate room here to map Paul Krauss: When we first started working with the Boyers, they had sketched a larger development with a is it crosses an extensive wetland to thru road to the east. We preferred the thru road connection. The problem folks it would land on the east side are none too excited about that either. get there and the where Councilman Mason: Excuse me, it's an ag urban wetland right? , Kate Aanenson: For... correct. . Councilman Mason: Where you're talking about putting the road through is an ag urban wetland right? Paul Krauss: Right. That was the earlier plan. Now it turned out given m� on that side. Although there believ many units, nearly Y is the wetlands to be located, you would" t get as 23 I Council Meeting - Jan 10, 1994 City g January e some buildable ground on that side. There's a question of deadheading a road. You know if there are no units in this...how do you get the road connection through here? Plus, this woman I believe and this person testified at the public hearing at the Planning Commission that they were not too excited about that proposal. Now, the Boyers came back with a considerably smaller development that only had the one leg. We still would prefer a thru street but it doesn't seem all that realistic. A, to figure out a way across the wetland. B. to support it financially. And C ... without any development on that side of the wetland. Councilman Wing: Do you know the history of that channel? I've been there since 1952 and all our recollection is of the in -laws and the grandparents is that it was dredged illegally and was supposed to have been filled back in. It's a man made channel. It's starting to fill in. It's becoming non-navigable if you will. I think the Boyers are talking 1,900 feet of shoreline and you're talking about putting this number of houses on a closed channel like that that goes to the lake, if we want to discuss pollution issues. Every one of those houses, if they're going to use any type of fertilizer or whatever, we're really adding. But that's a separate issue with that channel. I guess if they want to count it as Lakeshore, then I'd just as soon see them use it for boats and docks because it's not navigable. It's filled with milfoil. Getting worse and filling in and it's going to be non- existent and they don't have the option now or in the future to ever dredge it, improve it or do anything with it. So if they want to count it as lakeshore, then I want to use it. Let's call it lakeshore and let's build it and let's put the docks and boats on that. I mean they're counting it as lakeshore but they want to get the boats and docks out onto the main lake. Does that seem a reasonable argument? Paul Krauss: Well, staff's position was somewhat in the middle. I mean we recognized that it was artificial. We asked the DNR for a read on it and while they acknowledged it was dredged, they're declaring it as part of the lake. Kate's recommendation did not include that area towards their allocated dockage. Kate Aanenson: In addition, the DNR is saying that they would consider it natural shoreline and they haven't used it in their calculations either so. Councilman Wing: It's just, the area is so dominated by milfoil and infiltrated by milfoil that I'm just concerned about the use of the lake. The dockage. Boat access and all. I mean for power boats, it's inaccessible this past summer. It's not going to get any better. I don't want to be approving this and suddenly have these people say what are you going to do about the milfoil, because we're not going to do nothing about the milfoil. Paul Krauss: In the channel or? Councilman Wing: The channel and the entire lakeshore is infestated heavily and it's not treatable. It's not going to be treated. The City's not going to do anything with it. I want to make sure that that issue's on the table too that they're building right into a milfoil farm and it's kind of tough luck. We're all living with the same problem. But that's just another side issue. I just was curious about the history of that channel and how we were looking at that. Paul Krauss: We don't honestly know when it was put in. It's just always been there. Councilman Wing: I was there and I can't remember. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other questions of staff? Councilwoman Dockendorf. I have a question just before I forget. Paul, do we have any, where are the, our 24 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 1 swamp funds or our project's priority list? The ones that Mr. Roy addressed. Are they on our list anywhere? Paul Krauss: Well actually yeah. We identified those. We've identified this major flowage underneath , Highway 7 down into here. It's on our priority list. As for the other ones, I'm not sure if they are. It's a problem that I think our staff is aware of. We have not allocated project dollars to this area yet. Traditionally, when we have an opportunity to try to piggy back on a development, I think this one is a case where we had that possibility. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay, thanks. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other questions of staff? Councilman Senn: I guess I'd like to hear your response Paul to, you know I heard the statement made a couple know, where are we creating open space? times now regarding by clustering we're creating open space. You Paul Krauss: Well I think you'd be looking at that design in perspective, you'll see that large portions of the site is buildable ground on the east side that is are being untouched. Now, and that includes both sides of, there There's buildable ground up by Highway 7 ft's berg left open. ' being left open. Councilman Senn: So you're saying that that strip along the east side is buildable ground? Paul Krauss: Portions of it, there is buildable ground on there, yes. Councilman Senn: You can put a street in there and put houses in? Paul Krauss: It's an ag urban wetland. You can build a portion on it and excavate another portion. It's realistic but it's theoretically possible. theoretically possible. I don't know that it's financially Councilman Senn: Without filling in the channel? Huh Councilman Mason: How wide is that strip? Do you know off hand? Paul Krauss: On the east side? Councilman Mason Yeah. I'm sure it says somewhere. Councilman Senn: I couldn't find it. Kate Aanenson: 120 feet. Councilman Senn: 120 feet. How could you fit it in? I mean I don't understand that. How can you fit it in ' with setbacks and stuff? drive and if it's a private drive, you only need 30 feet of right -of -way. Kate Aanenson: ...a private Councilman Mason: Yeah. Because it is ag urban, a lot of that can be filled in. City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Councilman Senn: I can see why everybody on the east sides happy and everybody on the west sides not ' happy. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Michael. Councilman Mason: I think some very interesting questions have been raised with this. Alternative housing. Zoning issues 30 years ago as opposed to now. A side bar, every, before I really get going on this, every PUD always has a blurb on affordable housing and we have yet to have a PUD come through that addresses the issue ' of affordable housing and I'm not going to argue that this is the spot for affordable housing but, and I haven't, how many times do we have to go through this with PUD's. I don't personally see what the city is getting on a PUD on this. I don't know what this will look like when it's done from Highway 5. Excuse me, from Highway 7 or from the lake or from Dartmouth or for Arbor. I do know what I felt when my view of Minnetonka was ' completely obliterated by all those townhomes that went in right in downtown Excelsior. Now I know this is not as massive but, 5,000 square feet? I think as a Council we really need to talk long and hard about that. I don't deny that perhaps there should be some zoning changes in this city. I think the people that live around this area ' have some compelling arguments about whether this is the particular spot that should be rezoned or not. So maybe we need to talk about that. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I'd like to get some comments back from Council. 0 r_ 1 1 Councilwoman Dockendorf. Well I'll go. I'll keep it short and sweet. I mean the purpose of this is concept approval and in concept I don't like it. I don't think it's a good transition from the neighborhood. I certainly am open to the study of alterative housing. I think it's a very appropriate and very needed. I just don't think it fits into this neighborhood, and just for Planning Commission and staff s and the rest of Council's future considerations, I think we need to look at the minimum square footage on a PUD. And I'm not adverse to bringing it down to 5,000 to fit in this type of housing. But that's a separate issue. For this piece of property I don't think this is an appropriate use. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Michael. Councilman Mason: Well, I raised some of my concerns and I guess right now I'm inclined to agree with Colleen about whether this is appropriate use for this site or not. Before I reject it out of hand, I guess I'd be curious to know what it would look like as an RSF. I'm struggling with the transition here between Sterling Estates and everything around it and this. It looks really nice. I'm not rejecting the development but I'm agreeing I think with Colleen here about the transition in that whole neighborhood. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Mark. Councilman Senn: I like the type of housing that's being suggested but I have to agree, I don't like it on this site. Basically I spent a long time ... out there and looking at it and it, I just can't, oh I don't know, through any picture in my imagination make it fit. The real problem I see is that regardless of what the history is in the channel, it seems to me the channel is what's gumming it up. And the reason I think it's gumming it up is if you could do reasonable transitions between both of the existing neighborhoods and what you're suggesting here, it may be more viable. But with that channel there, in whatever form it's there and I don't see how that's really a comparable, given the fact that I don't think the site really fits. The concept in terms of the housing. The only way to change my mind is to adequate buffer it and if you can adequate buffer it to the one side but I don't see any way you can adequately buffer it to the west at all. So I just have a real hard time with this fitting in 26 F City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 1 this. ' Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Richard. ' Councilman Wing: Well living out there I concur with the neighbors. I think when you think of Boyers you think of quality and they go hand and hand, so from that standpoint I'm really comfortable. I don't believe that Joe would come in here, put in low income affordable housing in this particular piece of property. Like he stated, it's a very valuable piece of property. So right now I guess I'd like to see that RSF standard subdivision with the quality work that Boyer does and I think we'd wind up with something pretty presentable there. If I was to approve it tonight, first of all homes that you see suggesting, I've looked at over in Shorewood and they're very impressive. They caught my eye jogging down the track and I said, ooh, what's that going on and I walked up there and I found them to be these old people homes. What did he call them? John Blumentritt: Empty nesters. ' Councilman Mason: That other thing I don't think is what you call them. 1 Councilman Wing: No it's not. Well I'd like to live in one. So we've got the quality there. Frankly the clustering I can accept. If we're gaining some environmental issues here. But one thing that I think is the greatest gift we could give the city in this project is to drop out Arbor Drive, which offsets from Seaman, which you can't make a left turn in which has always been a nuisance. Drop out Arbor into a small cul- de-sac that affects almost nobody and then T this development and Dartmouth into an intersection. A T intersection with Seaman Drive so at someday a light could go in there or access to that highway could be provided with turn lanes and so on and so forth. So that really concerns me. So to approve this tonight would be, I would accept ' the quality. I think I could buy the clustering but with the roads going in, there'd be less homes and maybe this thing would be a little less obtrusive per numbering. And also the boat issue. I don't want to go back to 1981. That ordinance was put in there to say you're not going to come in with 13 acres and just put in all the homes ' you want and then tie them to the lake and everybody gets a boat. We've discussed that. It's no longer an issue. It's a dead issue. So we don't have to discuss 26 boats unless they want to come in and develop all this 1,900 feet of Lakeshore. Then the docks and the boats are entitled to go on that channel. I don't have any ' problem with that. If they want to try and use that channel. But in a standard subdivision, we get 6, 7, 8 lots on that 800 feet, we know that we're going to have one dock per lot or shared and we also know it's going to be going through very heavy swampland areas into a very mucky bottom and it basically is unusable. And two wrongs don't make a right. I believe, I think Sterling Estates has been abusive in the past in filling in and dredging and so on and so forth but that's the way it was in the 60's and 70's. But it's the 90's and two wrongs don't make a right and that isn't going to happen here. That option isn't available. They can't dredge it. They can't mitigate the shoreline so we don't have to discuss that. If Sterling Estates was wrong and Joe Boyer did it ' right or wrong, the neighbors that came in did it right or wrong, but that won't happen again. We know have rules and regulations and we're now thinking visionary and it's the 90's. So let's not back track what people did in the past. So I'm comfortable with the standard subdivision right now. And before I would look at this conceptually, although I really do favor it, I think Joe will do an excellent job here with this particular idea ' Even going down to the 5,000 and I'm not shutting it out but I'd like to see what this road connection would look like. How we could do it and what a standard subdivision RSF would look like before we approve this conceptually. A standard subdivision RSF may look worse than this and we may say, well this is the way to go. We don't have to approve it conceptually. This is what we'd like to see done here. So I don't have the answers in the road issue. I don't have the answers in what this would look like as a standard subdivision. And if I could just digress mildly on that, express my concern about that is when we approved this townhome above 27 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 ' B erl r 's , or this new townhome g oing in,1 hones and truly thought that what we looked at and the pictures we were shown, that that was sort of in line with the village Apartments up on the top of the hill and then going north. I'm dumbfounded to see that the picture I was shown is nothing like I thought and those are being built right down into the hill. Right into the city and I don't have enough information to address the conceptual issue right now. I want to emphasize my enthusiasm for Joe Boyer and these homes. Go look at them. They're fast class. And if they're going to cluster them and it's going to protect Highway 7 and the lake, I think it's going to fit in. But I want to know more about the road and I want to know more about a standard subdivision first. Maya Chmiel: Okay. I guess from just looking at this and changing that zoning from low density RSF to zero ' lot line, than PUD medium density, I have some real concerns because we're going to be establishing precedent and with that, that means that that's going to be the name of the game. I'm not for that game right now. There's no sense to going into reiteration as to what has been said back and forth here because it's, many of the ' feelings that I still have and I do, in looking at the overall picture of it, and with what staff has recommended, putting that to even a 9 boat slip dock I strongly would support that and not any different than that. So with that I would now call for a motion to support, deny or whatever position you'd like to take. But I do want to establish one thing. That we would be having a precedent for the approval as to what they're proposing for the comprehensive plan amendment. Councilman Senn: I'm confused. Do we pass a motion on a concept review? ' Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Correct Roger? 7 L 1 Roger Knutson: Sure. Mayor Chmiel: You have to. You have to have a vote in order to move it. Councilwoman Dockendorf. I would move that we deny the concept for the Planned Unit Development to rezone 13.47 acres of property zoned RSF to PUD. Roger Knutson: Mayor, again my suggestion I made before. We should have Findings so when you deny this, if you're going to deny it, so I'd recommend that the motion be to prepare Findings... Councilwoman Dockendorf. So moved Mayor Chmiel: Is there a second? Councilman Senn: Second. Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded Any other discussion? Michael. Councilman Mason: Yeah. I want to back track a little bit to what Richard was saying. I'm right now inclined to vote with the motion but I think there are some issues that are unresolved here. So I would hope that if it does get turned down now, we as Council could direct staff and the Boyers to look at what our concerns are. And see if they can come back with some sort of compromise. Is that kind of what. Mayor Chmiel: Roger, what's the time period of that once it, if it's a comprehensive plan or the amendment would be. tJ� 28 E City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 1 John Blumentritt: I think that's our preference. We don't want to deny this and just have this lag on forever I 29 Roger Knutson: If the motion on the floor passes, and you wanted to take another look, it would have to go back through the process. Go to the Planning Commission, in front of the public hearing and then back here. ' Maya Chmiel: Right. But is there not a period of time that this is established? Roger Knutson: Where you'd have to act on a comprehensive plan amendment or rezoning? No, there isn't. ' Councilman Mason: We're at the discussion phase right now right? So if this motion doesn't pass, and there was a motion to table, I'm thinking out loud here. ' Councilman Senn: I guess that's what I was coming back to. I mean, and maybe that's where I'm uneasy with it. It seems to me that we really would like to see some alteratives and a lot more information. If we're being told to act on this tonight, which is probably a bad way I asked my question before, I'm going to vote no on it. ' Okay? If we can go forward and say see some more plans on some subdivisions or standard subdivisions. More standard subdivisions. As well as some of the alternatives and see some of the questions answered. I mean to me that's the way to go right now. , Roger Knutson: If you want to keep this, if you want to see more information and more variations and iterations of this, or compare it what a single family would be, if you want to keep it say alive for now, then I'd recommend the tabling rather than denial. Unless you want them to go back to the beginning and start all over ' again with a new application and new public hearings. Councilman Senn: And tabling doesn't set any clock in motion or time in motion that forces us to turn around , and take some kind of an action? Roger Knutson: Because this is not a plat, where you have that time clock running. Councilman Senn: Okay. Roger Knutson: On a rezoning and Comp Plan, there is none. ' Maya Chmiel: Okay. At this time we have a motion on the floor. Councilwoman Dockendorf. I'd like to withdraw my motion because I guess I do want see the lesser or two evils. I would like to see what an RSF development would look like. Maya Chmiel: Okay, and with the motionee making that remark, with the second automatically dead. ' Councilman Wing: Then I'd make a motion to table this and the table specifically directs staff to review the options of a standard subdivision. Assuming quality homes will go in. We can make a map up to show the ' maximum we could do to this property and destroy it. 75 feet on the highway. I don't believe Boyers have ever done that and ever will so I'd like to see a realistic standard subdivision proposal addressed. Kate Aanenson: Can we ask the applicant if they're willing, if they're interested in doing that before we pass ' that? ...maybe they just want the denial. I don't know. John Blumentritt: I think that's our preference. We don't want to deny this and just have this lag on forever I 29 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 and ever. This is one concept. One avenue that we had selected If there is a multiplicity of avenues and one that you want us to review with the staff, then please table this. We'll review this to the staff. We'll work this out with the staff and come back with something that you visually then can see the alternatives and then come to your decision. ' Councilman Wing: Yeah, my motion to table is not to kill the cluster, because I'm not so sure I don't support that. But I do want to see the options of a standard subdivision. I would like to see Seaman and Dartmouth T'd and how the roads might work City roads going through there. What else do we have? ' Councilman Senn: Well I'd like to see something that straightens this out more and gives better buffering to the neighborhood to the west. And negating use of that road system which I think you've already kind of asked. ' Councilman Wing: I think we've all said pretty clear that this boat issue simply isn't going to be addressed. We're not bringing the 1981 ordinance back and I think that if that's the case, I'm going to support a standard subdivision and put in all the lots you want on the lake and then put in your boats at the docks but it's going to ' be less than 26 and I'm really, I support the neighbors on that issue. I think that's justifiable. Councilman Senn: Well to me the boat issue is a non -issue until you decide what the heck..going to be. Councilman Mason. So the motion is on the table? Mayor Chmiel: A motion is on the table to table. Councilman Mason: I will second that. ' Mayor Chmiel: There is a second to table with the additional information that we're looking for to receiving at whatever the next presentation comes through. Councilman Mason: If I could. I also, this is a tough one because this is obviously a class act. I share the Mayor's concern about, if it was just this area that would be 5,000 square feet, I think I could say well yeah. But if we're going to open up this city wide, that's a whole other issue too so I'm glad we're choosing. ' Mayor Chmiel: It's something we have to address. Councilman Mason: I'm glad we're choosing to table this and certainly not deny tonight and let's see what we ' can work out. Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, I think Mike's concerns were reflected by the Planning Commission meeting. That it's probably the number one concern in this case. Councilman Senn: I didn't see anything in there though that addressed how we deal with that. ' Mayor Chmiel: No, they didn't. Councilman Senn: I mean did that mean that we create a new section in our zoning ordinance? 1 Mayor Chmiel: That's the point that's my concern. 1 30 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 1 Jerry Rypkin 150 Flying Cloud Drive ' Tommy Geekel Attorney for Moon Valley Roger Knutson: At least most of the Council's been intimately involved in this obligation for a number of years. ' I won't go through it's history. I believe you are familiar with it. The Judge has remanded Moon Valley issue to the City Council to make a finding on one issue and that is, what is the appropriate amount for a restoration fund. To help guarantee that the site will be restored to a reasonable slopes when this area is mined out. You ' have calculations in your background materials based upon the history of how much aggregate has been moved in the past. And how much money it will cost to complete the restoration and a suggestion that based upon all those considerations, 20 cents per cubic yard go into that fund retroactive to the date when the ordinance was 31 Paul Krauss: We were just discussing that. I mean there's a possibility of modifying some of the language in the PUD ordinance that's quite specific. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. But all these modifications that we keep putting into, we're lowering the standards and I ' don't like lowering the standards period. Councilman Mason: Well are we lowering them or changing them? ' Maya Chmiel: Well that's the point. Councilman Mason: Right. Well I throw that out too and I'm not disagreeing with you on that. ' Councilman Wing: But if I was to bring back my 22,000 square foot lot with an 11,000 PUD with a net lot of 18,000 and any options you want, we're still going to get to that density issue. Then after we get to the ' density... Councilman Mason: No, no. Affordable. ' Mayor Chmiel: By the way, we're going to have some meetings coming up. Maybe you'd like to. Councilman Mason: I would like to be a part of those, very definitely. Please keep my informed. ' Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Motion's on the floor with a second to table. Call the question. ' Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to table the Comprehensive Plan Amendment to change the land use designation from Residential Low Density to Residential Medium Density and Conceptual PUD for 26 single family zero lot line units on 13.47 acres for additional information. All ' voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. CONSIDERATION OF THE AMOUNT REQUEST FOR SITE RESTORATION FU FOR THE MOON VALLEY GRAVEL OPERATION. ' Public Present: Name Address Jerry Rypkin 150 Flying Cloud Drive ' Tommy Geekel Attorney for Moon Valley Roger Knutson: At least most of the Council's been intimately involved in this obligation for a number of years. ' I won't go through it's history. I believe you are familiar with it. The Judge has remanded Moon Valley issue to the City Council to make a finding on one issue and that is, what is the appropriate amount for a restoration fund. To help guarantee that the site will be restored to a reasonable slopes when this area is mined out. You ' have calculations in your background materials based upon the history of how much aggregate has been moved in the past. And how much money it will cost to complete the restoration and a suggestion that based upon all those considerations, 20 cents per cubic yard go into that fund retroactive to the date when the ordinance was 31 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 effective would be appropriate. You will note that 20 cents a cubic yard will not by any stretch of the imagination come close to providing the $2 million, in all likelihood anyway, that will be necessary to restore the site .... of the restoration fund, the primary funds anyway of the restoration fund, will be to make sure there's at least enough incentive to the owner, whoever that is at the time, not to walk away from that site and leave it a mess... The financial incentive is the money on deposit that in all likelihood there will be enough money, ' enough incentive so the site will be fixed up. And yet the amount will not be so onerous as to prevent the operator from operating. Based on those considerations as laid out in the report in front of you, we'd recommend you adopt the Findings that are prepared and that you approve the 20 cents per cubic yard. I'll stand ' for any questions you have. I know the applicant and their attorney is here and I'm sure they'd like to make a comment. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thank you Roger. Does the attomey for Moon Valley or whoever is represented care to ' address us at this time? Tommy Geekel: Good evening Mayor and members of the City Council. My name is Tommy Gleekel. I'm a ' principle with the firm of Siegel, Brill, Greupner & Duffy who's represented Moon Valley Aggregate throughout the entire litigation and Mr. Knutson referred to. I have a few quick comments. One I, although I was initially. involved in the litigation, I've not been involved for quite some time. Due to some scheduling problems we couldn't get over, Mr. Brill, who's been dealing with Mr. Knutson and Mr. Scott, the City Attorneys, was not able to come this evening. I do have the basic knowledge of the operation and what I believe to be the basic issues and the intent behind the City's request, First I want to address the basic assumptions, and I think Mr. Knutson referred to those, or at least the city's concern being some financial or some incentive for Moon Valley to not walk away from the property. We used this quits a bit and I think Mr. Knutson has probably heard this argument but we stand by it...permanent representation in Moon Valley and other gravel operators within the metro area. I think that quite some time ago, probably before my time there were many or a few gravel operations and there still are a few. Maple Grove in which the property's were leased and not owner operated, ' in which those operators walked away from the project because they had no contractual obligations to the landlords, nor the incentive to maintain the property, (a) to mine it responsibly so they could develop it, and (b), to maintain the value of the property because their entire interest was to extract various minerals from the ' property. Here the property's owner operated. Another example of that is one Mr. Knutson as well is familiar with is in the city of Apple Valley in which a client of our's is in the process of moving it's mining operations in Apple Valley and is currently developing gravel operations that have been mined for quite some time for ' lucrative residential developments. I bring that up because I think that's a basic assumption to be made when thinking about what type of value to put on it or what basis the city is determining to have this incentive. The incentive is the value of the property and in an owner operated property it would be ludicrous to believe that a property owner would walk away from a valuable piece of property that could be developed such as the one in ' the Moon Valley property. Specifically, I didn't do this ... but Jerry Rypkin who's with Moon Valley Aggregate made several phone calls to various operators within the metro area and in Elk River, Shakopee, Maple Grove, Lakeville, Empire Township, Inver Grove, Burnsville, to name a few, to discuss with them what their, either was ' there a restoration fund or a bond fund that they was imposed by the governmental authority or governing authority and in those there were either none or the amount was less than this 20 cents per acre. I think there's only one where there's an actual, or two where there was actual amounts and that was $5,000.00 totally for an ' operation. That's just to give an idea Granted that the city can base it's assumptions on what it specifically that it sees are the facts with it's city but that's an idea Generally I believe this may be your only existing operating pit of this kind. Permanent or in a sense interim use pit within the city. The issue comes down to economics, as most things often do. Here, 20 cents per cubic yard is excessive in that it basically takes the competitive edge ' off my client's operation. Moon Valley is an operation which competes with various other operations in the 32 1 r City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Carver County, Western Hennepin County area. Dakota County. However, this operation is able to compete and sand and aggregate materials and compete with the economics the way it is provide reasonable clay and other today. An example of that would be recently Moon Valley Aggregate had a bid for I think a bridge job was • _ ' only 7 cents, or his closest competitor was 7 cents higher than heeryhsetnall and competition is excessively With the 20 cents added to that, and fund, it basically just an example. fierce, the margins added to that, I think competing with other operators that don't have this Prices, just to give you an idea of from 50 cents a cubic ' for almost 45% of the a takes the competitive edge off the operation. for to $1.50 a cubic yard for good sand. So 20 cants a cubic yard g that's being sold, and " yard clay figure for clay to a smaller'for good sand. But it is a significant figure per cubic yard from my understanding as Mr. Brill had stated to me is that , that's how the minerals are sold. What was done, ing in the Scott County, or Carver Count)' court sys t e m. It's gone back and had, this had gone to Judge Kann If ` . we forth and back and forth. It came to you as the Judge bu really not relevant for today's discussions We not agreed upon by us, I'm sure that we'll end up W. it's either been forwarded ' Pew and I understand figure for have, what I have been given the authority to do, and I r is to suggest a kind of a stepped up procedure• 996 to Krauss and Mr. Scott and/or Mr. Knutson, cubic yard. 1996 to 97, 10 cents the dollars into this fund• And that is from 1994 to 1995, 5 cents per in 2003 to the closure of the , putting the year per cubic yard '98 to the year 2002. 15 cents per t has been recommended cubic yard. And 20 cents that you are, that Cif operation, 20 cents per cubic yard which is the by the We are here to request that that be the motion or that be the r�tl ins are veappro small and this evening. and erg Council this evening. For the reasons stated about competition ' And to keep in mind the basic idea of why, the basic idea of where the ration. will affect Moon Valley's ope is the value of the property itself because this is an owner is and the incentive to restore the property of Moon Valley is to develop the value and the operator. It's not leased property e value to Mr. Zwiers, the once it's been mined himself- Thank You for your time. ' property Chmiel: Thank you. ' Mayor Roger Knutson: Concerning the issue of the competitive edge. On August 30th Judge Kar!ninan the o P rovide Order, Valley Order that stated, within 60 days of the fili o ree fund amou nt which is not unduly burdensome to Moon ' with the information necessary to determine to Hempel 's calculations, you're looking at a lied. According Valley. That information was never su pp by staff would raise, based upon proposed restoration cost of some $2 million. A substantial cost. The 20 cents is a a small part of the actual cost of what You can see that's past excavation activities, roughly $27,000.00 a year. ' restoration would be. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Any que stions by Council? If hearing none, can I have a motion? Councilman Senn Why, a question if I could. Mayor Chmiel: Go ahead. I don't have any history of this way or the other but why are we at 20 cents when ' Councilman Senn: you're sitting here saying that it wont co ver the Roger Knutson: It's a low figure. We d'dn'ut I her some doubt 20 cen� think he certainly could• It's d know b P� for make a living at it? I operator 33 r n ' City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 ' enough to give him an incentive but not enough to be burdensome, as suggested And that number was discussed with Judge Kanning. Councilman Wing: Well I do have the history on this and I'll just, at least for discussion, move staff ' recommendation establishing a restoration fund in the amount of 20 cents per cubic yard, retroactive to January 1, 1991. ' Roger Knutson: That would be, Councilmember, could you move adoption of the Findings of Fact as set facth in your packet? That had the 20 cents in it. ' Councilman Wmg: If your comments show on the record, I would so move. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, is there a second? ' Councilman Mason: Second. Maya Chmiel: Moved and seconded Any discussion? ' Councilman Wing: Well I'm just, having sat through this for how many years now and had the battle go on with this group and we've tried to be fair and reasonable and I guess reading through the facts that we have in our packet, the Judge has sat down with you and their attorneys and said here's what's reasonable and fair and give ... and I think you've presented what the Judge has agreed and their attorney in fact has somewhat agreed here. ' Roger Knutson: The Judge has not agreed on the 20 cents. It was discussed with him. That number•..the Judge has not found' it to be, the Judge wants your input before making a decision. ' Councilman Wing: Okay. And I don't know if I can say the 20 cents is the right number. That's where we have to fall back on staff I think. Maya Chmiel: Well I think from what staff has looked at, and what Dave has gone through, I feel quite ' comfortable with it. Plus the fact that when we requested the information be provided to us, this has been going on for so long it's getting ridiculous and I know they did not provide the information to us as we had requested And I just think it's time for us to move on and I think I will. Go ahead Michael. Councilman Mason: Just real quickly. For whatever reason they chose to have no input in what that charge should be, which I think is, well that was their decision and I certainly, I supported staff down the line on ' whatever's gone here. I see no reason not to support staff on this now. Councilman Senn: What are we trying, or I guess what I'm trying to get is what are we trying to accomplish as a city as it relates to mining? I mean get it done more rapidly and be done with it? Manage the amount that's ' going out? Roger Knutson: No. What we're trying to do is have a situation that is under control that is not causing erosion ' problems, safety problems, and when you're finished we have a site that can have another end use and we don't have a scar on the earth forever. I mean there's storm water problems-Issues is quite extensive and I believe we're down to this one item. to 34 E City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Councilman Senn: Are those lessened by the way you manage the removal or are those problems inherent in the operation and there's no way you're going to resolve them until the operation is done? Roger Knutson: Some of the problems are ... on the table with this issue. A lot of the operational problems can , g be solved by proper management, proper storm water control, what have you and those have been dealt with But this issue is the final grade. Final slopes. , Councilman Senn: There are proper systems or whatever in place now in terms of managing? Roger Knutson: It's not everything we would like, that's for certain but what we have to realize is this is not a , new pit and when the Council, a couple years ago, issued a permit, said here's the conditions, it took them to fact that it was an existing non - conforming use. If you'd like a full briefing on it, maybe the best I would suggest would be after the meeting. ' Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I think that's right. Okay, so with the discussion we've had, I'll call the question. r ••. ei,. ^T Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to adopt the Findings of Fact establishing a ' restoration fund in the amount of $.20 per cubic yard retroactive to January 1, 1991, to be used to insure the restoration of the Moon Valley gravel pit. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. lDvrVTVW Rm+acrRrr.TTV r.Titnv ioR TH 5 SOUTH FRONTAGE ROAD (AUDUBON ROAD TO ' Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. I'll try to be brief with this. Basically what you have in ' your packet is the feasibility study for a rather large capital improvement project proposed through the area between Galpin Blvd and Audubon Road south of Trunk Highway 5. It involves... through Audubon Road... ' reconstruction of the portion of Galpin Blvd from Timberwood Drive north to Trunk Highway 5. It does involve the extension of trunk sewer and water main improvements to that general area...is about 200 acres of land that's-At this point the staff recommendation is to formally receive the feasibility study... Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Charles. Any questions? ' Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yes.. The report addresses assessments. I'm just wondering who gets assessed , here. Councilman Mason: Timberwood gets it all don't they? Charles Folch: ...the actual assessment numbers are being, still being worked on at this point in time. We hope to have those to you within the next week or so and would be adding an attachment to the document...at the public hearing. The property's in general would be for assessment at this time that are identified are the school ' site property, city owned property, Highway 5 Partnership which lies east of the school site, the ... McGlynn site ... and also land owned by Heritage Development... Councilwoman Dockendorf: Great, thanks. And a related issue. The semaphore at Galpin. I thought that that ' was going in a couple weeks ago. Charles Folch: Actually a couple weeks ago, a couple council meetings we discussed in November the Council I 35 ' 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 did authorize a petition, joint petition with Carver County requesting MnDot to proceed with doing an ... implementation of a temporary signal at that location. The problem with the ... sometime early '95. By the time we get the signal in but that.-get it in by late summer or early fall of this year. Councilman Wing: What are the chances at Audubon and TH 5, is there a light scheduled there also? Charles Folch: Not at this time. But it is likely that that could occur sometime in the next 3 years. Mayor Chmiel: But I think you're right Charles. I thought they were going to take those signals that we had on 78th and Great Plains and move those from that location. Charles Folch: Yeah, actually we—and they got them back. Maya Chmiel: Well I didn't think we were going to let them get them back. Charles Folch: I looked into, with their signal operation department to see if there was a mechanism or a way to be able to hang onto those to fast track them down to Galpin and there really wasn't a way... Maya Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion? Councilman Senn: Move to receive. ' Councilman Mason: Second. Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion? ' Resolution #94 -08: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to receive the feasibility study for Trunk Highway 5 south frontage road, (from Galpin Boulevard to McGlynn Drive) and Galpin Boulevard (CSAH 19) from Trunk Highway 5 to Timberwood Drive, and area trunk utilities, Project No. ' 93 -32 and call for a public hearing at their regular meeting on Monday, February 14, 1994. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. 1 CONSENT AGENDA: G. SET SPECIAL MEETING DATE, CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Don't we have to set some dates here? I mean I don't see us moving. Mayor Chmiel: Well I think that's what we have to do tonight. Everybody pull out their calendars. Councilman Mason: Before we pull out calendars Mr. Mayor, in the past they've been supplied by a certain Mayor who's just. Mayor Chmiel: Haven't they gotten here? I'll let you use mine. Councilman Mason: I'll take notes. 9 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Don Ashworth: Somewhere in the packet we do have a listing of all of your meeting dates. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Oh do we? Mayor Chmiel: Yes, there was one. Councilman Mason: There were no dates down anywhere are there? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, they're here somewhere. Councilman Senn: There was a full schedule of all the meetings. Councilman Mason: Oh, oh, those. Yeah. I thought you were talking about the special meetings. Mayor Chmiel: Oh no, no, no. And I think that's what we have to schedule inbetween. Those respective meetings that we have. ni and Councilman Senn: I'd Like to renew my and two reg ular meetings a monath until get up get ttus start having two work sessions a month 8 stuff done. Councilman Wing: There will always be' something to do. Make it a motion so I can second it. Councilman Senn: I did. Councilman Wing: Second. It's a rare Council that doesn't do it now in a big city. Mayor Chmiel: We're not big city yet. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Are we big? Councilman Wing: You bet we are. We're getting really big. Some major issues. Mayor Chmiel: We're only at 15,000. Councilman Mason: I'll agree to that with the, I mean are you saying that we absolutely have to meet every off Monday? Councilman Wing: I could fill up every single one easily on issues that. Councilman Senn: Well what I was thinking Mike was, at least until we get the stuff done and get further notice, I don't know inherent in that to me is that if there's a list of issues, I mean I've got Don l which 1 think is Don's list and I think there's others. I mean you could probably ask the five people sig here and you'll get other lists and it seems to me the next step to this is let's all put the issues on the table. If that be a 37 1 �J LI I City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 ' list of 25 , Pn going then let's prioritize it so we can start oin through and knocking off 1 to 25. Now that's not to say that in the midst of knocking off 1 to 25, 10 more number one's aren't going to pop up. I don't know. But I ' mean at least at that point we have some kind of an order and process that's in place to get going and address some of this. ' Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'd be willing to do that. I just don't want to show up on a Monday night and say, well guys what do we talk about tonight. I mean I want an agenda. Mayor Chmiel: No, I think we're going to have to, and I don't disagree because many Council's are going through that same process. The size that we are is dictating more and more attention be given to the things that we're not addressing as we should be. And I think that going through the process of having it on every other Monday is I would say very, something we should follow through with. Making sure that we do have things on ' that agenda that are going to be meaningful and eliminating given problems. Rather than just discuss and table. Table. Table. ' Councilman Wing: I'd like the agenda to be Council driven. Not staff driven. Councilman Senn: Yeah. Like I say, establish the list of priorities and let's get it out. ' Don Ashworth: Well you've got to tell me what you want. �7 Councilman Senn: Don, we can use your list as a basis and each one of us should give you our list and we should put them all together at the fast meeting and we should sit down and look at it. Mayor ChmieI: Now, what I would like to suggest. A time frame and I think it's something that we should have with a good 2 hour discussion. Councilman Mason: I would like to have some time parameters. And I would. Mayor ChmieI: 7:00 to 9:00? 5:00 to 7 :00? However you'd like it. Councilman Senn: How about 5:30 to 7:30? Councilman Wing: Well 5:30 to 7:00 and then if we spill over. We know we have to be here at 7:30 but 5:00 to 7:00 is enough time to get some... Councilman Senn: I'd really love to set a 7:30 blow up time. Councilman Wing: What's that? Maya Chmiel: That's it. Councilman Senn: Yeah, that's it. We're done at 7:30. Councilman Mason: Well we're not, are you talking about doing this on Council night? Mayor Chmiel: No. 38 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Councilman Mason: He is I think. Mayor Chmiel: No, we're talking about doing it on off Council night. Councilman Wing: I won't be here because I can't quit the Fire Department. I've got pension involved. I could make it until 7:00. At 7:00 I have to head over. Councilman Senn: A lot of times we'll be done. The only thing Dick is let's put a 7:30 blow up on it so we don't go past that. Councilman Mason: We will not go past 7:30. Mayor Chmiel: Right. Don Ashworth: You're going to have holidays in there so... Councilman Senn: We can't meet on the holidays is my understanding. Councilman Mason: And we clearly can't meet on the 31st. Councilman Senn: Why not, we're meeting tonight and it's mine. Mayor Chmiel: With all those ... you're going into February. Okay, starting. Don Ashworth: We could get at the 31st depending on the agenda. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yeah Don, you don't need to be here. Don Ashworth: For all of them. Councilman Wing: Why not on Council night from 5:30 to 7:00? Councilman Senn: That makes a long night. Councilman Mason: When we get these to midnight shots, I can't be here 6 1/2 hours. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Not only that, you end up discussing that night's agenda. Councilman Mason: And that's a good point. I don't want to be doing that. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. S o as we're looking right now. Is 1 I 0 .1 J I � Councilman Senn: So we'll all get our list to Don and then our first meeting will be to address the list of , priorities. Don Ashworth: And again, if the Council wanted to get together on the 31st, I mean Todd can be with you on 39 11 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 that evening. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that's a big day if I remember right. 21 years or 22? Don Ashworth: Oh yeah. Would the Council be available to do that on the 31st? Councilman Senn: ...between now and the 31st don't we? Don Ashworth: Interview candidates? Councilwoman Dockendorf. On the 17th? No. Not unless you moved it. Councilman Mason: Can't make that. Councilman Wing: Well that's another issue here. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to spend my time interviewing, after I sit in these commissions and listen to them go through these interview process. Make your recommendations and if there's some problem with the Council, then we can interfere but I'm not sitting through an interview process. I'm too busy. Councilman Senn: Well can't we do that on the 31st? Councilman Mason: That is a comment that Don had raised also that I think might be worth a couple minutes. I mean I guess I agree with Richard. I have enough faith in the commissions and the people that run our commissions that if we have the opportunity of maybe talking to the top 3 or whatever. But I don't need. Mayor Chmiel: That's what's recommended. Councilman Mason: Okay. Mayor Chmiel: Rather than 15 minutes, I think that's a little too long. I think you can do it in 10, and at least that's what we did at Public Safety. Councilman Senn: But can't we do that the 31st without Don? We don't need Don there to interview the candidates, do we? And that meeting, couldn't we do that and set the priorities at that meeting basically and then we've got kind of our game plan laid out for the next month. Mayor Chmiel: Let me put it this way. Rather than look at the top 3, if there's only 2 candidates or 3 candidates out of 5 and they make a recommendation of 1, I think that's what we should do the interview on too. Councilman Mason: I won't agree with that. Mayor Chmiel: Why? Councilman Senn: Because if you only have 2 candidates, I'd lice to see both candidates rather than the recommendation of only one. VD M E City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 1 Mayor Chmiel: Yeah but why? Councilman Senn: Because I'd like to see what's available myself. We're supposed to appoint. y°u know we're ' Vs less supposed to basically appoint them. I think we should see. If there's more than 3, let's se e we're forced to pick than 3, I think we should see them. I don't think we should ever be put in a position one. That's just my opinion. ' Mayor Chmiel: Well, yeah that depends on what the rest of Council feels. Pau 1 Krauss: ... you might want to take some time to lay out some parameters. I know every year it's. ' Mayor Chmiel: It's different, you're right. Don Ashworth: I think we have a number of candidates on for hat just has 2 candidates, this time arogund.n't we? So I mean they're likely not going to have a c ' Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, no. Not this time... We had more than that. I think there was 3. You had 5. For what? , Paul Krauss: Well the Board of Adjustments only has ... we've had the same 3 people for years. Councilman Mason: You ended up with 5 for Planning? ' Mayor Chmiel: How many did you have? Paul Krauss: We had 5 or 6, yeah? Now Jeff Farmakes I think technically is Your fourth candidate but Jeff can be re- appointed. You . also, do you want to re- interview your existing? Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yes. ' Mayor Chmiel: The existing candidates that have been on the commission? Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yes I would. , Councilman Senn: I would say if we run into a situation as Paul has h and they' the two people on Adjustments and you have two applicants and they re the only two app ' there, we should just waive the interviews. I meanI think is only fair to talk to them and to� s if you only have two compare them. , the deal right? But if you have other people, than Councilman Wing: When I was on Public Safety and we had so enthusiasm d kly w e tcommission i back �''s ' we looked at demographics. Personalities. Professional versus ym balanced help or want it. We tried to get a commission. Now all of a sudden you get a politic is here they're, Council and suddenly we're not meeting the needs of the commission. I think those People- i , of course the theory goes the other way and I don't deny that. But I'll stay out of this because I Pro bably will be out of town for those meetings. Mayor Chmiel: Oh you'll be on time. You'll be here. ' 41 r M . January 10, 1994 City Council M g Councilman Senn: Not if he's flying that airline. ake the decision ' Councilman Mason: Well the process that we've had where we talk with the top 3 involved in interviewing 10 based on one, I'm happy with. I don't want to get, I have no intention of getting people. That's where I'm at. Councilwoman Dockendorf. Yeah. Don Ashworth: So I've got notes, you want to do it off Mondays. 5:30 to 7:00. Blow up of 7:30. Want to do interviews on the 31st. You want to interview the top 3. You'd like to set it closer to anou want 10 minutes d y to take and look at prioritizing the future agendas. Mayor Chmiel: I'd like to make a suggestion that we do it upstairs in the atrium rather than here. You sit ' where we're at looking down at them. ' Councilman Wing: Let's get serious about what's for dinner then. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'm not a vegetarian. ' Councilman Wing: Could you fly in some seafood? Councilman Mason: But you know, Dick you made a comment before about it being Council driven. And you know we went round and round and kind of said I think it has to Don i wan both. a�know s. I want this on right but then I think that also gives us the responsibility of saying to drive it. the agenda. You know. I mean it's easy for us to say Council driven but if we're not doing anything Councilwoman Dockendorf: So on the 31st, come with your list. Mayor Chmiel: Well and I think too Don, you should prepare a list as to what You see are the needs as well. ' Councilman Senn: I'd like to get our list to him before the meeting so he can take it and come in with a whole list at the meeting that we can look at and prioritize. lik to maybe ' Don Ashworth: Since your first one is going tom with the ca wouldn't o uld not You eating front of th�ema little and early or schedule them for 6.00. I mean so y you ' Mayor Chmiel: Let's try to keep that down to a 10 minute interview rather than 15. Councilwoman Dockendorf. And start them at 6:00. ' Don Ashworth: Maybe that would be a good idea to do the prioritization first. ' Councilman Wing: I'll be out of town that meeting. Councilman Mason: So they'll be at 6:00 then? That sounds good. ' Mayor Chmiel: Alright. We've got that. We'll get that pulled together so we know what our calendar is. I ' 42 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 ' need a motion to, well we're not pulling it together yet so we won't have to have a motion for that one at this particular tine. Do you want us to table that one until you get this pulled together? Don Ashworth: Yep. ' Mayor Chmiel: Okay, can I have a motion to table? Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to table setting special meeting dates ' until after the January 31, 1994 work session. AU voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. I. RESOLU AUTHORIZING THE SUBMITTAL OF A LOAN APPLICATION TO THE METROPOLITAN COUNCIL'S RIGHT -OF -WAY ACQUIS LOAN FUND (RALF): AND ' AUTHORIZING THE PURCHASE OF PROPERTY IN THE HIGHW 212 CORRIDOR WIT PROCEEDS FROM THIS LOAN. ' Councilman Senn: Paul, question. If I'm reading this correctly, we have to up front a ll the costs, or am I not reading this correctly? Paul Krauss: No, you're reading it correctly. Now I asked Bob to follow up on this. I was involved with this ' action a couple years ago. When this first came out and that was the understanding at that time. I had Bob check on that... In fact in the past, I've had a few inquiries over the last 2 or 3 years about this and I go well, we're willing to do it but... What I've found though is that Chaska and Eden Prairie have been ...and winding up ' getting a lot of... Councilman Senn: Well good for them. MnDot or what? Paul Krauss: Well, something functional with this. That's what the program...that's what you do. I mean unless you act in advance of MnDot so you can resolve... problems that the potential of having a highway inflicts on a property owner. I mean they've been talking about this road for 37 years and it casts a pale of what you ' can do with the land. The one that we have in question here has come up once before. to get resolved for a couple reasons. First of all we do, I think we gave you a copy of what Chaska did with the comprehensive analysis... 1 Councilman Senn: Let me shorten this because I'm not trying to lengthen it out. I have no problems with the program. I have no problems with what you're suggesting to do. What I have problems with is were sitting here ad nausea trying to figure out you know geez, now we're $33,000.00 short or $40,000.00 short and we're sitting here looking all over the place for how we come up with money and then this comes in and you're saying we're going to basically pay MnDot and come probably damn close to $30,000.00 in up front cost to do this. To me that doesn't make sense. ' Paul Krauss: Well these costs are reimbursable. ' Councilman Senn: I understand that but that's 5 -10 years down the road. Mayor Chmiel: No, no, no. Paul Krauss: It's reimbursable immediately. If we close on the deal, which is through... 43 ' City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Councilman Senn: I thought it said when the projects goes in here. Paul Krauss: Well if it does, that's misleading. What happens is, we pay the appraisal and if they drop it at that point, they walk away, we may be stuck with the bill. But if they go ahead and we pick up the land through the RALF fund, we can stick that appraisal cost into the acquisition cost and rebated that from the Metro Council immediately. Councilman Senn: So this is wrong? Because this says we don't get it until the State buys the land from the city. Paul Krauss: No. My understanding is we get it right away. ' Mayor Chmiel: Okay. You feel that? Paul Krauss: If you want to put that as a condition, that would be. Councilman Senn: Yeah, I yeah. Councilman Mason: We probably should make that a condition. ' Councilman Senn: Let's make it a condition and then I'm happy. ' Paul Krauss: But you do understand that there is an element of risk. Councilman Senn: I understand the elements of risk. Move it with that. ' Councilman Mason: Second. Resolution #94-09: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the Resolution ' authorizing the submittal of a loan application to the Metropolitan Council's right -of -way acquisition loan fund (RALF), and authorizing the purchase of property in the Highway 212 corridor with proceeds from this loan, with the condition that the City be reimbursed immediately by the Metropolitan Council. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. K. APPROVAL OF ACCOUNTS. Councilman Senn: It's late. Why don't you just move this separately and I'm going to vote no because there's a number of items in here. Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the Accounts Payable as presented. All voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of4tol. M. APPROVE FINDINGS OF FACT AND DECISION PAUI,Y'S BAR LIQUOR LICENSE TRANS REQUEST. Councilman Senn: I don't know whether it makes any difference or not but under Findings of Fact I assume you want all true statements and number 7. Under the City Vision 2002 goals, I wasn't aware that we had any 44 City Council Meeting • January 10, 1994 1 iJ goals under 2002 yet. We're still in the midst of the process to develop the goals I thought. And you're basing a premise on that. For whatever it's worth. Roger Knutson: I've not seen the 2002 goal statements. I received that from staff as something that a councilmember stated. I have no personal knowledge of the subject. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I think you're right Mark. ' Councilman Senn: Yeah, I think that's just a coc=oon. That's all I'm looking for there. I assume you didn't ' want something that they could turn around and say we're wrong. Roger Knutson: I'd suggest if you want to approve these, delete number 7. Councilman Senn: Delete number 7. ' Councilwoman Dockendorf. Or couldn't we say under proposed Vision 2002? ' Roger Knutson: If that's accurate. Councilman Senn: And I still don't like the one year extension but that's alright. ' Councilman Wing: But let's adopt the vision. I think the HRA has clearly made that statement in the past. Mayor Chmiel: Of what those goals basically are. ' Councilman Senn: They are in existence. ' Roger Knutson: You're just deleting paragraph 7. Todd Gerhardt: He has until May. , Councilman Mason: I'll move approval of item 2(m) with deleting number 7 under Facts and Findings. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, is there a second? Councilwoman Dockendorf: Sure. Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to adopt the Findings of Fact and Decision, deleting condition 7, for Pauly's Bar Liquor License Transfer Request. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Don Ashworth: Pauly has not contacted us regarding extending that lease. Councilman Senn: Oh, surprise. At market rate? ' Don Ashworth: At any rate. ' 45 ft I City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 1 7 ,7 L O. ESTABLISH 1994 PARK AND TRAIL DEDICATION FEES. Councilman Senn: I thought we had talked a little bit about making an item on one of our work sessions looking at the issue of whether we wanted to maintain the standard that's basically the bans for this whole thing. And it just seems to me that where we are, kind of setting it in place for '94 and where we should be is kind of looking at the standard and saying is it a standard we want to maintain? Councilwoman Dockendorf: The standard being so much per so much? Councilman Senn: Yeah, the 1 acre of land for every 75 persons. We said we were going to talk about that and see if it was something we should really look at changing. I know we've been busy on 100 other things that we haven't but. Mayor Chmiel: Do you want to touch that one Todd? Todd Hoffman: The one thing I can say about the standard is that in every case that I've been involved with, our standard of 1 acre per 75 people has resulted in the city acquiring less land that► if you would take a straight 10 %. Council could... Councilman Senn: No, I understand. But when we looked at really adjusting the standard. Saying it's not realistic for us to look at funding a program that basically says we're going to buy an acre of land for every 75 people. Or get an acre of land for every 75 people. I mean in some cases we have city need wide parks. don't accommodate know if you call them broader scale parks that can suffice the need, we don't necessarily all of those smaller parks. As this current ratio would suggest. Roger Knutson: If I could jump in a second. I don't know if it suggests that. I don't know whether it's the proper number but most of the time you get cash equivalent and you can take the cash dedication from lots... subdivision and then buy one big park, if that's what you want. This does not say you have to buy your lots in little totlots. I don't know whether you can debate whether 1 per 75 is, that's your discretion. The reason, just so you understand the reason. The reason we start there is because you have to relate the dedication requirements, the need generated by the development. Councilman Senn: Well the way we've been using this is a subdivision comes in and we start pounding the houses and we say, you know there's x houses here. We need to set aside acreage in that area to create a park and that's, I don't have problems with what you're saying but what you're saying and what we're practicing are two different things. Roger Knutson: Yeah, you certainly, you have the discretion obviously to have a little todot in every subdivision. Or you can have no totlots and one huge mammoth park someplace or whatever. Mayor Chmiel: And those dollars can be consolidated into one to acquire that park is what Roger is saying. Councilman Senn: Okay. So that's an overall issue. Okay, I'll just put that on my list. Roger Knutson: I'll suggest that the 1 per 75 is a national standard that is widely accepted, not by everyone of course but by a national standard. 1.1) 46 Ll City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 1 Councilman Senn: Okay. Then basically on the fees the question is, why are we increasing, or I guess, I ' thought what you were doing made some sense and then all of a sudden it didn't make sense. We're increasing basically the single family by 50%. We're increasing the commercial industrial by 50% but we're raising the multi family apartments by far less than 50%. In fact it's, well not far less but I mean by less than 50%. Why , are we not just maintaining a par or equity going through if you're saying? Todd Hoffman: Yeah, I think it's closer to about 40 %. ' Councilman Senn: Well, about $800.00 would be the right number if you're looking at 50% on the multi- family rather than $750.00. Todd Hoffman: Essentially that's because we had it a little high the last go around in the multi- family...It's not a big discrepancy the way I saw it but I did notice that as well. Councilman Senn: Does it make any sense on a commercial industrial to tie it more to employment base than to acreage? Todd Hoffman: Some cities do that, sure. ' Councilman Senn: That's the primary cause for use or heavier use. ' Mayor Chmiel: But I think we have to look at it from the standpoint of however it's going to best facilitate the city. Whether it be numbers of employees or going through our process. Roger Knutson: Mayor? Again I don't want to prolong this but under the Statute, there's a Statutory formula ' that you have to follow that says in any subdivision you can require the dedication or a reasonable portion of the property or the cash equivalent. So that's the Statutory ... you have to deal with. ' Councilman Senn: Or the cash equivalent. So you're saying that these cash equivalents are equal to the dollar or the value of that portion of the property it would take otherwise? Roger Knutson: I didn't. Todd. ' Todd Hoffman: That's what we try to reach. That's our goal. ' Councilman Senn: And these reflect that you think? Todd Hoffman: They reflect it much closer than any other cities in the metropolitan area and that's a problem ' which I've been discussing with other directors. Councilman Senn: I mean how could you combine commercial and industrial under that premise. I mean that ' totally baffles me. Commercial's the most expensive. Industrial's the least expensive. Todd Hoffman: You really can't and I know that in the report that commercial is probably 4 times as much as ' industrial. Todd Gerhardt and I have discussed that prior to making the report. It comes back to your point which you made that you maybe should tie it to employment and your industrial users simply... ' 47 i Council Meeting - Jan 10, 1994 City 8 �Y Councilman Senn: You're just saying you're short of money. I'm trying to come up with ways to give you more money. Roger Knutson: I'm suggesting, I don't know how you would tie one into that equation. The reason the portions of the property are cash equivalent. Councilman Senn: Yeah, I understand. If that's your premise then, Yeah. ' Roger Knutson: That's the legislature's premise. Councilman Senn: How do the other cities do it that tie it to employment? ' Roger Knutson: They don't that I know of. If they do, they're doing it improperly. Todd Hoffman: The city has tied it directly to land values in the past as well. 4 or 5 years ago it was 10% of ' the sale price of the property and then McDonalds bought a parking lot for something of a million dollars and we wanted to charge them 10% to the parking and then that didn't fly either so it's been tested. Councilman Senn: Okay. Well it's late. I'll move that to a discussion item for later. I'll move approval with the change in multi- family to $790.00. Councilman Wing: Well, I'll second that but $790.00. I also want to make a comment on this. Mayor Chmiel: I guess my question might be, I don't think we're going to deter any builders from building. Does anybody feel there should be any alternative kinds of cost established in here other than up some or down some? Councilman Senn: Well I guess what I was trying to get at at the beginning is rather than set this tonight, I'd really like to see us have a session to discuss that and look at the issues we've talked about. Councilman Wing: The big picture. Councilman Senn: Instances and then set this if we can wait. Now if you're forced that you have to act on this tonight, that's a different story. Do you need this tonight? Todd Hoffman: I'll sign permits tomorrow under the new fee. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Otherwise they stay at last year's. Councilman Senn: Can we set these are temporary? Todd Hoffman: Sure. Councilman Wing: We can approve this and then after our work session. Mayor Chmiel: Well yeah, we can put them as temporary. 48 1 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 1 1 Councilman Senn: Yeah, I'd just like people to know our intent and our intent is this is kind of temporary stuff yet and , Mayor Chmiel: And they could go higher. Councilman Wing: But I want to address that before we talk about it. We have a motion and a second and I'd I like, when you're ready, I'd just like a quick discussion. Maya Chmiel: Okay, discussion. ' Councilman Wing: There's some powerful words in here and -you don't have, you didn't have the money to go out and buy that little parcel out on Lake Minnewashta. No one wants to address it. You don't have money to ' go out and get the parkland. We're looking at $30,000.00 an acre of property in Chanhassen and we're below that and I think when we, I'm not encouraged, I don't want to encourage people to come into Chanhassen. Maybe it's going to get more costly to move into this town. Now it's filling up. The density's increasing. Traffic's increasing. I'm not coming down here unless you do something with those stop lights. I mean not to ' use that as an excuse to hit you here but the town's growing. It's developing. We're either going to go for parklands, parks, and keep things up now or we're never going to do it. So his recommendation of $25,000.00 I think is pretty generous. Pretty conservative as far as I'm concerned and I have no qualms about telling my kids ' if you're coming into Chan or myself, if I ever build or change houses, that you're going to start paying for some open land and parks in this city if you want to come into Chanhassen. So the $25,000.00 is not an unreasonable number to me and I would, my only interest. My only interest here is to approve the $25,000.00 which ups your's a little bit but that $25,000.00 is still below our acreage currently and its going to accelerate ' rapidly to a.. so I'm opposed to this whole thing' unless we go with the $25,000.00. That's why I'm so excited about your $790.00. At least it says something that we're, let's start bumping the park fees up for the future of the city and we're talking long term visionary. Long term visionary and there's going to be no parklands ' available unless we get them now. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Then it's a vicious cycle I mean. ' Councilman Wing: It's not coming out of taxes. It's just a cost that you're going to pay to come into Chanhassen. If you don't like it, go to Victoria but as soon as the demand's here, they're going to fill this city up right to the brim. It doesn't matter if we triple that fee. They're going to come in and pay it when it I becomes feasible to be here and it's in demand. Councilwoman Dockendorf: And it's all passed onto the home owner. ' Councilman Wing: Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am. Mayor ChmieI: That's where it boils down to, exactly. ' Councilman Wing: You can exclude it from affordable housing but other than that. Councilman Senn: Then you get into a wonderful argument about what existing paid under their scenarios , versus future people and then. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. ' 49 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 r Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well I look at it as, I'd be happy to go along with the... ' Mayor Chmiel: Okay, is that acceptable to the motionee and the second? Councilman Wing: Well we're going to $790.00 right? ' Councilman Senn: $790.00. I mean other than that we were going with this. Don Ashworth: Temporary fees and you want it as a work session. Okay, got it. ' Resolution #94-10: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Wing seconded to establish the 1994 park and trail dedication fees as presented by staff amending the multi -family rate to $790.00. All voted in favor r and the motion carried unanimously. Todd Hoffman: Clarification. Do you want the one -third collected up front? The ordinance change. r Mayor Chmiel: Yes. ' Councilman Senn: We passed what you wanted otherwise. Mayor Chmiel: One -third the cost of park dedication fees. ' Councilman Senn: And you didn't even have to say anything - P. APPROVE GRANT APPLICATION MULTI -CITY /SCHOOL DISTRICT COOPERATIVE AGREEMENT. Councilman Senn: Hey Don, what you're looking at here between the school districts and the city and the one stop service and stuff to me makes wonderful sense and it's like full speed ahead and that's kind of what you ' addressed in the cover memo here but then I go back into here and it seems like we're also approving the study of public safety. And that again, I mean it still really bothers me. I mean it seems like there's two... Don Ashworth: I'm sure of this rec side and I haven't paid a whole lot of attention on the public safety side. If . r the Council wants to knock us out of that side, fine. That doesn't bother me. I've got more than enough to do on the rec side. ' Councilman Senn: Yeah I, you know, I'm just going to restate an earlier problem. I have real problems comparing ourselves to the other member cities as it relates to the public safety functions and just think it's a big waste of staff time and everybody else's time to enter that into this as it's being suggested. On the rec hand I ' couldn't agree with it more. I mean it really makes some sense. Don Ashworth: One of the reasons I see us in this thing is, I really believe that we provide services at a very reasonable cost at whatever you want to look at. And if as a part of that we can help document it so somebody r comes in and says, you bunch of idiots you know. You're not providing this as police costs. I can pull this thing out and say no, no. We had an outside study done and we really are providing this at least cost. r Councilman Wing: The last time this came up we discussed it you defended it and when it was all done I said, I 50 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 think we agreed. At least the majority that this was in our benefit. Councilman Senn: It wasn't just details and outlines. Councilman Wing: You defended it to the point where I was comfortable. I don't remember how you voted. Councilman Senn: Well I thought at the time that there was no definition to it. They were going to look at the services to be studied and stuff and. Councilman Mason: Does anyone, how does Scott feel about this? Does anybody know? Councilman Senn: 1 mean I know the ... animal control but to me, rather than waste our time... (There were a couple different conversations going on at the same time at this point.) Don Ashworth: If there is part of it that faces with the commission, then I would bring it back to the commission. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that's what I was discussing with Don. If there's anything dealing with the Public Safety aspect of it, and there's something that he needs help, to go to the Public Safety Commission so we're not side stepping one of the commissions with this. Okay. Ahight, we have a motion on the floor with a second. Councilman Wing: To delete this? Mayor Chmiel: To delete that part of it. And just accept the. Councilman Mason: Well how does Scott feel about this public safety thing? Do you know? Mayor Chmiel: Well basically this is being supported by the Metropolitan Council. The Metropolitan Council paid for this portion of it. So in other words, we'd have somebody from them come in and do the study in itself. It wouldn't cost us anything. Councilman Senn: ...all of our staff resources to go into it. Councilman Wing: But it does inventory who we are, where we are and what we're doing. We may look really good. Mayor Chmiel: And that could be very well true too. Councilman Senn: Well I mean if you're more comfortable, I'll withdraw my motion and let's table it and hear from Scott. I don't care. Maya Chmiel: Okay, when do we have to have an answer on this Don? Don Ashworth: Today. Councilman Senn: Always. 51 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 , 1� 1' Council Meeting - Jan City Coun g torn' 10, 1994 Mayor Chmiel: Last week. ' Councilman Wing: What does the City Manager recommend? Don Ashworth: I don't think that it's that time consuming for us. The public safety side of it, I don't get that ' excited about. But on the other side, there may be a positive aspect of documenting really what our costs are per capita and some of those other type of things. ' Mayor Chmiel: We get to know as well. Don Ashworth: I don't know. ' Councilman Mason: Well it's not like we're getting tied into anything is it? C I J n Don Ashworth: No. Councilman Senn: No, but it could re -open some issues relating to public safety and this, that and the other thing. Councilman Mason: Well I'll just make one quick comment and then, I don't know if there's a motion or not but it seems to me. Mayor Chmiel: Well Mark withdrew his. Councilman Senn: I said I'd withdraw it if we could table it and we can hear back from Scott. But that doesn't sound like that's possible. Councilman Wing: I think this is between the City Manager more than Scott. Don recommends it. Don Ashworth: I don't think Scott would have a, I don't think he'll have a problem. He hasn't said anything to me to date and I've given him copies of stuff so. Councilman Mason: Well I think it's okay to know, for the left hand and the right hand to know what they're doing. I don't have any trouble including Public Safety. I mean I hear what you're saying but it doesn't look to me like we're going to lose anything by taking part in the public safety side. Mayor Chmiel: True. Councilman Senn: But the study also says that they're going to go ahead and suggest strategies to forming a government cooperation. Councilman Mason: Well fine. That's good. I mean if a strategy. Councilman Senn: It benefits a lot of 1 mile square towns if you ask me. Councilman Mason: Well but we don't know that and I think to shut that off before we know that is doing a disservice. Personally. tp 52 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Councilman Wing: We don't have to do a thing. ' Mayor Chmiel: Right. We can drop it. Councilman Wing: Public safety, we are in the driver's seat. , Councilman Mason: Sure we are. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. There's a motion on the floor. There wasn't a second as yet. So that would then die. I ' would need a motion. Councilman Mason: I'll make a motion to approve grant application for a multi- city /school district cooperative agreement. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, is there a second? Councilman Wing' Second. Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the Grant Application for a multi- ' city /school district cooperative agreement as presented. All voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to I. Q AUTHORIZE MODIFICATION TO TAX INCREMENT REDEVELOPMENT PLAN. ' Councilman Senn: This is tax increment dollars to build a parking lot, trail and landscaping around the Hanus facility and old Apple Valley Red -E -Mix site. Query. Why is the city doing that? Don Ashworth: So you can't see the site from Highway 5. ' Councilman Senn: But why are we doing that when we already have an agreement in place for a party to buy it back from us at a set price which brings us no benefit for doing these improvements? Don Ashworth: I'd have to go back and research the agreement but my understanding was that we would buy , 000.00 or whatever we anticipated. 100? For the parking improvements and Kurt the site for x. We added $20, could buy it back for the inflated price. ' Councilman Senn: But we've already gone over that level I thought. I thought we already did the Parking improvements? ' Todd Gerhardt: No we haven't. That's this parking lot improvement right here. We let a bid, awarded a bid ...this past November... Don Ashworth: They were rejected the fast time. Awarded the second. t Councilman Senn: The question is, then basically anything we put into that property we get back through the agreements on the price? ' 1 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Don Ashworth: That was the intent but I, you know. Todd Gerhardt: It's going to be close. The rents ... on the building are $25,000.00 and dug's ... going to get. We collect rents and own the building right now. We're collecting rents on that. Councilman Senn: That doesn't enter into the repayment on the $100,000.00? Don Ashworth: No. That's a totally separate. Councilman Senn: What I'm saying is ... reflects the cost of our improvements. Is that a fair statement? Don Ashworth: Right. Todd Gerhardt: No. I mean... Mayor Chmiel: Two different answers. Todd Gerhardt: We're going to put more into it than we're ultimately getting back. Mayor Chmiel: How much more? Todd Gerhardt: I'm trying to remember what the bids were on it but some of the land that we are going to retain. I mean we are landscaping half of the berm out there is BRA owned land. Councilman Senn: Well I'd like to move we table this until we have that answer. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. There's a motion on the floor. Is there a second? Don Ashworth: Doesn't this affect some of the timing as far as the hearing? That means the hearing and everything gets pushed back. Can we delete out the item regarding the Apple Valley Red -E -Mix thing? Todd Gerhardt: All you're doing under this is you're calling for the public hearing. You're not approving any ' of these conditions. I will get your answer for this. I mean all you're doing is calling for the public hearing. And at that public hearing I will have that answer, or even sooner if you want it. ' Councilman Senn: Alrighty. Mayor Chmiel: Do you want to move that? ' Councilman Senn: Sure. ' Councilman Mason: Second. Resolution #93 -11: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to authorize modification to Tax Increment Redevelopment Plan. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. R. REQUEST TO REALLOCATE THE 1994 CONTINGENCY FUN ($33,000.00) TO FUND REDUCED REVENUES. 54 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Councilman Senn: I wanted to pull this one for a study session rather than some kind of hurried decision. Consent agenda or Council meeting. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I guess it really doesn't have to be moved immediately anyway does it? Don Ashworth: No. The further you get into the year, the harder it is to find places to cut. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. And that's very true and I agree with that. Can we have that as a priority item to -be addressed number uno? Don Ashworth: Sure. Are you saying the 31st? Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Why didn't we see this coming? I mean it's only been 3 weeks. Councilman Senn: We ... a contingency and one week later it's gone two times over. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, can I have a motion to table 2(r)? Councilwoman Dockendorf. I will. Mayor Chmiel: Is there a second? Councilman Mason: Sure. Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Mason seconded to table the request to reallocate the 1994 contingency fund to fund reduced revenues to a Council work session. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, is there any Council presentations? Mayor Chmiel: No. Councilman Wing: Would the Mayor just allow a brief comment? Very brief comment. Mayor Chmiel: Very brief comment. You were late. Councilman Wing: That's true and I have no right to. Mayor Chmiel: You're right. Why don't you bring it up at the next meeting. Councilman Wing: Because it pertains to what we did tonight. Mayor Chmiel: I don't want to talk about it. Okay, go ahead. Councilman Senn: I move to adjourn. 55 7 0 City Council Meeting - January 10, 1994 Mayor Chmiel: Move to adjourn. No, go ahead. Councilman Wing: Nothing, just the newspaper. I'm really disturbed that were continuing with them. I pick thw paper up and I get nothing. The only way we can communicate with the community is through that newspaper and when I get home, I pick up the weekly news and I see Chanhassen Council did ...and in other action Council did.... I go to Victoria. Council. I keep track of what's happening here and in other cities. He picks one or two items. Gets front page and then there's some, here somebody goes to France and is sitting on some monument and that's front page story and there's nothing about the City Council or our action or what the city's doing. We're not getting covered and I don't like the paper and I don't want to continue with the Villager. Mayor Chmiel: I can tell you that was in the other paper. About what was happening in France. Councilman Wing: Okay, I agree. When I come home from out of town I get the weekly news to find out what's going on in town. The Villager has been no help to me whatsoever in beeping... Councilwoman Dockendorf. I agree. Councilman Mason: Maybe the publisher should be talked to. Mayor Chmiel: Maybe that's what we'll have to do. Can I have a motion to adjourn? Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:00 p.m. Submitted by Don Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 56 � CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JANUARY 5, 1994 Prior to the regular meeting, the Planning Commission held a work session on the Highway 5 ' Corridor. ' Acting Chairman Scott called the meeting to order at 8:45 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Joe Scott, Diane Harberts, Ladd Conrad, Matt Ledvina, Nancy ' Mancino and Jeff Farmakes STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss, Planning Director PUBLIC HEARING: CHASKA SCHOOL DISTRICT AND CITY OF CHANHASSEN PROPOSE TO REZONE APPROXIMATELY 42 ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED A2, AGRICULTURAL ESTATE TO OI, OFFICE AND INDUSTRIAL DISTRICT AND CONCEPTUAL PRELIMINARY 1 PLAT AND SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A 107.690 SQUARE FOOT ELEMENTARY SCHOOL AND RECREATION/PARK COMPLEX, AND WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT. THE PROPERTY IS LOCATED AT THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF ' HIGHWAY 5 AND GALPIN BOULEVARD. Public Present: Name Address Farmakes: Paul, can I ask you a question? Can you give me a quick synopsis? I didn't pick ' this up from the report. What is the positioning of this school overall in the 112 school system? Is this seen as a long term replacement with our elementary school over here? I ' know that's 30 -40 years old now, isn't it? ,. 4 J David Leschek Hammel- Green - Abrahamson Bob Rothman Hammel - Green - Abrahamson John Gockel Chaska School District #112 ' Wallace & Maxine Otto Waconia Craig Harrington 8140 Maplewood Terrace Patrick Minger James Dornholt 8221 Galpin Blvd. 8251 West Lake Court Roger Schmidt 8301 Galpin Blvd. t Paul Krauss presented the staff report on this item. Farmakes: Paul, can I ask you a question? Can you give me a quick synopsis? I didn't pick ' this up from the report. What is the positioning of this school overall in the 112 school system? Is this seen as a long term replacement with our elementary school over here? I ' know that's 30 -40 years old now, isn't it? ,. 4 J i Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Krauss: It's not a replacement at all. It's supplemental to it. ' Farmakes: I realize that but I'm talking maybe 20 years down the line. How is this positioned to serve for instance, is it an expansion situation on the landscaping, what we're looking at now, is this something that's envisioned? Does this solve current problems and does it take into consideration future growth? These are the type of things that I did not pick up in the report so. ' Krauss: Well, I'm working off of memory here because this goes back to this committee that we served on with the School District and they had Barbara Luckerman from ... Metro ' Council ... Ibis should handle the growth, as I understand it, that they expect to be experiencing in this part of the school district. Ultimately they need another middle school in this area someplace but this should handle the elementary level growth into the foreseeable future. Now when they did their projection, we gave them what we felt to be the ultimate development of Chanhassen and there in fact parts of southern Chanhassen they may still use the Chaska Elementary School because they may be closer. ' Farmakes: That's the figure in about the low 30's somewhere? Krauss: Which one? Farmakes: That's the figure in the low 30's somewhere that you're talking about the ultimate ' development? Krauss: Right. Right. Long term the school district may well need another school out in Victoria. Victoria would prefer that this school be built in their community anyway but as long as they can project, it's my understanding, this would satisfy their elementary needs. ' Harberts: What is elementary? Grades what? K thru 5? Krauss: It's up to 5. Harberts: Middle school is 6 thru 8? ' Krauss: Yeah, except for kindergarten. ' Scott: Yeah, ECC. Yeah, 1 thru 5. With the City of Chanhassen getting involved in basically getting another school sited in our community, do you see the same process happening obviously if the middle school is needed? Have we gone through the same process and saying, well here's a good spot for a middle school and continue this process for that? 1 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Krauss: Well, as I said earlier, initially we thought that this was going to the middle school because that was what they thought they needed at the time. We later found out that , in the State of Minnesota, it gets pretty bizarre. If you're going to locate a middle school, you almost need 70 acres because it takes so many football fields and baseball fields to accommodate it that we just couldn't fit it in here if we wanted to. They still have a long ' term need for a middle school site. We've shown them, they've sat down with us a couple of times to see what exactly is available but the words available and land in Chanhassen don't go ' together anymore and I'm not at all convinced that they're going to find a place for it in this community. We haven't identified one. Scott: Okay. Any other questions for Paul? ' Harberts: I have one. I don't know if this is to you or the applicant or the architects or buses integrating into this plan given the high whoever. How do they see the public transit that are provided each and every day to the school site currently? degree of rides ' Krauss: Well, maybe I can let them answer that. There are separate bus pull offs for this. y Southwest Metro to figure whether or not It's a pretty ideal type of a site. I'd leave it up to we need a separate bus loading area. Harberts: I don't know if we're asking about separate. I'm asking really was that a factor into the decision making process that it's an element that's there. ' Krauss: I don't know. To the extent that you're working with the school district now, I've got to believe it was because... ' Harberts: Okay. Maybe the applicant can address that. , Scott: Yep. Any other questions? I'd like to hear from the applicants if we could. Just for folks be talking about more specifically your notes. I know Paul mentioned that you would about the building design. Roof unit detail and information on ra rig ouo if you can just ' cover those as briefly as you can and then well fire some questions y David Leschek: Good evening. Is this working okay? My name is David Leschek and I'm With me tonight is Bob Rothman, also with , an architect with Hammel- Green - Abrahamson. HGA and John Gockel who is a representative for the School District #112. Paul has covered fairly well the background information for the project as well as significant portions of the , site. This plan that you have in front of you, as we refer to it in our submission to the Much is the building at this time. We Planning Commission, is a master plan for this site. as in the phase of the project and we have just received ' are at the design development portion Plannin g Commission Meeting - January-; 5,,.1,994 back our first design development level estimate. And as we receive that estimate, we then go back, what we do to go back and value engineer portions of the building or site, whether it be vegetation or some of the building materials or the amount of case work that's in the building so that that budget then is eventually in line with the original project budget. What ' we have done here is taken an educational concept from the District #112 as well as a recreational program from the city of Chanhassen and developed those programs to their full potential and as we get into the design development and we begin to get the estimates back, ' we begin to value engineer those programs if you will, keeping the spirit as well as the intent of those programs intact but maybe in a smaller. ' Mancino: The execution might be different? David Leschek: Not different. The concept is there. For instance an example would be the ' plantings that we have indicated on our drawings were of a 4 inch caliper which is in excess of what the minimum standards would be for the city of Chanhassen which would only require 2 1/2 inch. So at that point then we would go back to a 2 1/2 inch for instance rather than a 4 inch, which would still be in keeping with the requirements of the city but yet less than what we have originally shown on our documents. As Paul mentioned, we have a bus drop to the south of the site. Staff parking as well as a service entrance off of Galpin to the west of the building. We have provided for, and this may answer part of your question Diane. We have provided for a looped drive at the front of the ISD portion of the building as ' well as a drop off area, for whether it be cars or buses. Harberts: Oh good. ' David Leschek: Whether it be for the youngsters or even the physically handicapped. As Bob gets up here and goes through the portion of the building, you will note that the Early Childhood Family Education portion of the building is located in close proximity to this drop off on the west side of the building. ' Harberts: Can you tell what the distance that is? From the drop off for the children as well as you said from an accessible perspective. And is this covered? David Leschek: I'll get that scale and then I'll answer your question. To the south of the building we have this bus drop off which we envision is the bus drop that will receive the vast majority of the students. The individual houses which contain all of the classrooms are oriented to the south and off of that bus drop. So you will have students basically entering the building from the south. Staff from the west and you will have a community entrance back on the east side. We wanted to obtain that separation for security reasons as well as that was a requirement of the educational program established by District #112. This is about, 2 Harberts: What's the radius turn on that loop? David Leschek: I can't be certain at this time Diane. You know, I'm sure that our civil ' engineers have sized that not for a full sized school bus for instance but maybe one that would. Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 well excuse me. This is about 90 feet from this drop off point here to the front doors. Closest to the. Harberts: The main entrance? , David Leschek: Yes, that's correct. And we have approximately 180 feet from the bus drop houses. One of the reasons for that was that as a part of the up to the student entrances at the program for this building, exterior spaces wanted to be included in the educational ' educational program for the building. So for instance in this portion, this lightly colored area here that it, is area of prairie grasses which would you can see has concrete lines extending into this an be incorporated into the site plan and used as a teaching station for instance. Where a science ' class could go out, you know see the prairie grasses and develop some educational curriculum it into that curriculum. Again, back on the east that would accent this space and incorporate side of the building is the major entrance for the community portion of the building and again Again another ' the separation was desirable from all clients, or parties involved in the project. to the building but also just to allow drop off area to access not only the community entrance not to drop off maybe their children who are participating in activities that ' parents and what are going. on and allowing them to drop them off. Get them going and then going to park their vehicle. Either side of the building contains, at this point we have developed again And again I remind you that what ' some exterior educational type classrooms, or courtyards. for this portion of the project. A cafeteria located on the we have here is our master plan north side of the building. Again, a playground area that can both service not only the park ' but also services ISD 4112. This is the ISD #athletic ntary school as it would be for their need for athletic fields is not nearly as great at an elem fields. school and that's how the city has become involved in developing , instance at a middle additional soccer, softball fields. An ice rink in this area. Two ice rinks in this area and four additional tennis courts. Harberts: Could you just go through that lump again with regard to the public transit. I see where it would enter in. ' David Leschek: It would enter in at this point here. There's a, you can see how it was sort And then would loop back out. of recessed back at this point indicating the drop area. you Harberts: What's the radius turn on that loop? David Leschek: I can't be certain at this time Diane. You know, I'm sure that our civil ' engineers have sized that not for a full sized school bus for instance but maybe one that would. Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Harberts: 30 feet? 30 to 40 feet? That's what we're looking at. David Leschek: I do not think that it would be 30 or 40 feet. ' Harberts: Then it's not a public transit access point. So someone may want to talk to us or we talk to you about that. The only other thing is, is there the opportunity of using that turn around loop? 1 n I] David Leschek: There is the opportunity of using it which allows you to gain access. But again this turn around loop here has the same purpose as this one, because after hours when we require the vast majority of the recreational facilities being used, this staff parking lot would then become available to the community to use the park. Or to drop off their children and allow them access into the recreational area. Harberts: Okay. I'd like just to raise that as something to look at and to have further discussion with Southwest Metro. Thank you. David Leschek: Thank you. Any additional questions? Anything that I've missed? I do believe that we have also cut two sections. This one starting here will be up on that ridge that Paul spoke of by Timberwood Estates. The grade begins to drop down and .you have that large buffer of existing trees. The boulevard area that you will see in this location, the bus drop off, our area of prairie restoration, which is this area in front of the plan. Harberts: Excuse me, where's the access boulevard? David Leschek: The access boulevard, well the access boulevard is actually here. Farmakes: Is this is an east/west angle that we're looking at the building? David Leschek: This is a north /south. Farmakes: North/south? David Leschek: That's correct. Scott: No, no. It's cut north /south but we're looking west. David Leschek: Yes, you're looking west. That's correct. The prairie restoration area. The building itself, we refer to it as a diamond terrace but that is this portion just off of the cafeteria for the building and the playground which is off to the north side. And then the z 6 n Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 athletic fields, and then eventually Highway 5. ' Farmakes: Can I ask you a question about the prairie grass? My only familiarity with using this and the treatment that you're using down below has been with corporate, and to be honest, over a period, a short period of time they converted it to, they got rid of it essentially. Is there precedent for this where this has been used successfully for this type of use? Intensive children and so on. ' David Leschek: We have an ongoing project with IBM at Rochester. Farmakes: I'm familiar with the building. ' David Leschek: A corporate client and they have asked us to develop this sort of prairie restoration at their facility and we have found that it works quite well for them and see no ' reason why it would not work very well for the school as an educational tool. ' Farmakes: Is that location in front of the building? Or it would be facing Highway 53 then? That you're talking about IBM. David Leschek: I believe it faces Highway 53 as well as, you'll probably forgive me. I'm not that familiar with the project, although I do know that we are involved in it. I believe it is that portion that faces Highway 53 as well as I believe some of their courtyards are now , being done. Farmakes: To the north? ' David Leschek: Right, exactly. , Farmakes: Has it been used again in a school situation with elementary children accessing a point? ' ' tell you that we have done that David Leschek: I can't to y , no. Farmakes: Okay. Does this have to be burned every so many years? ' David Leschek: It would have to be burned every so many years. I believe it's every 3 years and we have in fact discussed that with the buildings and grounds people with the District , and they see no adverse affect doing that as far as from a facilities standpoint. r� I� 7 t Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Farmakes: How does that affect the other trees? Just curious, being that trees aren't normally ' in a prairie situation? David Leschek: Well I think what you find is that this lighted portion here is the prairie and we do have. ' Farmakes: I don't think we can see you over the podium there. David Leschek: I think the site section that you see here is a little misleading with the trees ' that I'm showing. You may be seeing, I believe you would be looking from this direction this way and you would be seeing this back drop of the trees but for the most part ... sort of on the perimeter of those prairie grasses. ' Farmakes. • Actually was more concerned about the trees in the front. The primary one here y is from the northwest and I'm just curious if you're going to torch that, how that would affect the other trees. We do have, I think a couple of cases. I think DataSery at one time when it was CPT did prairie grasses and burned is off. irierass. It's an attempt the ear I'm sure that t in ly stages of DataSery but I think Eckankar also d p g prairie grass restoration in front of their place. Mancino: Well there are red oaks right in the middle of the prairie grass. There are quite a ' few of them according to your enlarged plan of the bus drop off sheet. That these all are red oaks in through the prairie grass so we'd have to make sure they're shielded. ' Farmakes: That was my concern. Because about once every 10 years we get very dry around here and just, I believe these types of maintenance issues have been problems in the past with other sites. And that's why I was asking if we have any precedence on this type of ' thing. ' John Gockel: We have not at an educational building. Farmakes: Okay. ' David Leschek: This concept has been developed along with the District at this point. That's as much as I can tell you. Any other questions? I want to get back to, I have one additional site section that takes us east and west through the site looking to the north. Galpin Boulevard in this area and we begin to slope down to the staff parking and drop off that we had discussed with Diane. The front entry more or less to the s t h he site begins school l itse away to the ' entrance to the community portion of the building and then g Bluff Creek. So we have tried to maintain that natural slope of the site as it goes and works ' 8 �I Ll Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 J it's way east towards Bluff Creek. And you can see the background, Highway 5 remains ' above our site and the trees that we would, that were proposed in the master plan along Highway 5 in keeping with the development plan for the Highway 5 corridor and again this area back here is where Paul had mentioned he would eventually have access underneath , Highway 5 along the corridor which would run north and south along Bluff Creek. Mancino: I have a question about the landscaping and that's, it looks like on my enlarged ' plan, between the, let's see it's facing the south access boulevard is mostly sugar maples, correct? David Leschek: Yes. ' Mancino: They are very sensitive to salty soils so what's going to happen in a few years , when there's a lot of salt that's been snowplowed up into that area? This is a University piece that I have about the salt injury to landscape plants and the one that they list as very sensitive is the sugar maple and also the red maple, which you have on Galpin. ' David Leschek: I am not able to speak for the landscape architects that have developed our landscaping plan, other than to say that I'm sure they've taken that into consideration. I can , address that to Paul along with addressing Diane's concerns. In letter form. Any additional questions? If not, I'll turn the presentation over to Bob Rothman of our office who will take you through the building as well as the elevations. , Bob Rothman: Thank you. As Dave mentioned, there are three primary entrances to the building. For the school district, for the students and for the community. I'll briefly run you ' through the building. The school is designed for 625 students and that is 125 students per family cluster. Family cluster is first grade through fifth grade in an integrated program so they would be mixed within their cluster. So that occurs down south in proximity to the bus , drop off. Because the feeling is the students spend a majority of their day down in that area of the building. In the central portion of the building, that be the INC which is the media center which, when I was growing up was the library. Across the corridor from that is the art ' and music. We've designed this, we felt that the art, music, is all kind of brought together in this one common area with some display cases and an open library so it's open and accessible to all students. Behind that, with close proximity to the front entry is the administration for , obvious reasons. For general supervision of the school. Who's coming and going and that sort of thing. Also by the front entry we've located the ECFE, which is the Early Childhood ' and Family Education which is a 7 day a week, morning, night time sort of program. So again that desires to be close to the main entry. Also behind that we have some of the back of the house. The boiler room. The electrical room. Smaller seating area. And located onto the main access of the building is the cafeteria with, as Dave described, playground and fields 9 1 11 1 Ll ` j 7 Planning Commission Meeting - January, 5, 1994 to the north of that which the students, you know gobble down their sandwiches and get out and hit the playground. To the east of that we've got the gymnasium which is a shared gymnasium. Half of it is during the day, half of it, the southern most half would be used by the school district with the northerly most half being used by the community of Chanhassen. Also in this area we've got a series of four meeting rooms which are expandable into, can be paired or used singularly or as one large meeting room. We also have a fitness room and aerobics room and corresponding locker rooms and some storage areas for both meetings areas and the gymnasium. One of the challenges of this building was, due to the educational program, we were left with what seemed to be the best opportunity to be a one story building. As I said, one of the challenges is with the large building of this 112,000 square foot facility, is trying to break it up in mass and form. To give it some interest so it doesn't feel quite frankly like a pancake. And so how we've chosen to do that, this is the south elevation. We're looking at developing each cluster as it's own mass who each has it's own identity so there's the four, or the five rather are all fine and it gives us a nice sense of rythym and shade and shadow as well as using these spaces for defining the entries to each of those houses. The primary material of the building is kind of a molded brick which is very traditional in feel. If you're familiar with Jonathan Elementary, this is the brick that's used on that. It was the District's desire, as well as our's, to try and provide a family of buildings within the District. This is also brick that we're looking at using on the new Chaska High School so that it can be identified as a community building. Primarily we've got a flat roof. I can turn the model here. Primarily we've got basically a flat roof building but a few areas where we've chosen, would it be better if I. Scott: Apparently if the stand, I don't know if our camera can get down low enough. Can you, should he put it on the easel? Bob Rothman: This is primarily a flat roof building. Where we've chosen at the family cluster centers to raise that. Mancino: Where are we supposed to be looking? Scott: It doesn't work in the monitor so I guess the folks at home are going to have to pass then. Bob Rothman: So mainly we've got each of the clusters defined by a half vaulted room form, which will help give it a little bit of mass and a little bit of rythym. Farmakes: And we're seeing it from the view now where we would be on Highway 5. 10 1 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Bob Rothman: Right. You're coming off of Highway 5. And keep in mind that Highway 5 , is about the same elevation. It's slightly higher at Galpin and then you'd be dropping down to actually below the floor level. Or below the floor level of the building as it's coming up. Some of the other roof forms. The gymnasium is just an extruded form with of course a higher building mass. Cafeteria again, because of the larger volume of the room, we've , brought the roof up slightly. Within the INC, again we're going to use some bow ...trusses in there and make it kind of a nice, interesting space as again one of the harder programs being ' the INC. And Paul mentioned the. Mancino: Is that a glass dome? Bob Rothman: No, it's not. It'd be a metal roof. Farmakes: You're showing lighter colors there. What would that. Bob Rothman: It would be a metal roof with some clear story lighting. I Farmakes: Okay. The tan areas that you're showing next to the brick, what would that material be? I Bob Rothman: Those are the circulation areas. That would be a burnish masonry material. Again, to help define the circulation. ' Farmakes: Like Target? That's the description of that. Krauss: The burnish block? ' Farmakes: Yeah. Krauss: There is some burnish block. I Bob Rothman: I'm not sure what Target is. We have got some samples. Some samples here. And again, that's keeping in the concept of the site with defining these lines. We've carried , that through conceptually within the building also. Paul addressed the issue of these penthouses. We're looking at trying to bring those down. Those would be developed in probably a synthetic stucco material. These two and some of these other ones and this will I be brick. Mancino: What's a synthetic stucco? I 11 I 1 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Bob Rothman: It's called ethos. It's a plastic material. Mancino: You put it outside and it's impregnated with color or something? Bob Rothman: Right. So actually from where, you wouldn't see that much of it anyway but where you would, it would probably appear to be brick. Mancino: Okay. But from what I see right here, this elevation. I mean it's almost as tall, proportionally as tall as your one level. Bob Rothman: The one thing that's a little bit misleading about elevations is the fact that you're never going to see the building in that angle. Again, you're seeing everything straight on. As you approach the building from this way, you're going to be down and plus, unless you're 16 feet tall, you don't really see those things straight on. So they'll be recessed back in the background. And again we are looking, working with our mechanical engineers to bring that down. Are there any other questions? Farmakes: With the elevation of this building, to TH 5, you actually even with trees in there filled out, you will be able to see down into that a bit. Krauss: Highway 5 is pretty much at the building elevation. It's not too different... Bob Rothman: You can see right here. David Leschek: As the site goes to the east, it begins to drop below Highway 5. Bob Rothman: You see Highway 5 is approximately the same elevation of the. David Leschek: The building elevation itself is at 958 and I believe that Highway 5 at the west end of the site is approximately 960. So it's approximately only 2 feet higher than the main floor elevation of the building. But then as the site begins to go towards Bluff Creek, it begins to drop. It begins actually to step and we terraced the athletic fields to be in keeping with the Lake Ann complex which has been developed by the city of Chanhassen and that concept there was to try to get a little additional interest in the landform by terracing the land that the fields sit on. So we have done that same thing as something that the Parks Department wants to make as their signature, if you will, of their parks. To accomplish a terraced feel to that. Mancino: What about from Galpin? Galpin is lower? x-4 12 rl E Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 David Leschek: No. Galpin is actually higher. I think if you refer back to the site section here, you will see that Galpin is actually right here and it is actually higher. As the road. Bob Rothman: It starts to come down at this point. Again, as Paul mentioned, this being the high point of the site and it starts to drop down at that point. Mancino: Where that southwest wall is? Bob Rothman: Right. Correct. So when you're down here, directly south of the building, you're actually what, a good 8 feet below. David Leschek: Well you're about 6 to 8 feet below the building. Bob Rothman: First floor elevation. Mancino: So when you stand by McGlynn's Bakery, you're going to be looking down onto the top of this building? Krauss: I don't recall ... McGlynn's Bakery... I I 0 Mancino: I'm just trying to get perspective. David Leschek: One of the concerns that Paul listed in his staff report was the idea of the rooftop mechanical equipment and one of the reasons why we're now having to go back and adjust some of our mechanical penthouses is because we have put all of the mechanical equipment into these penthouses. So the roof is devoid of any sort of equipment that's up there. It is all self contained within the penthouses of the building. Mancino: Equipment in a penthouse. Scott: Peanut butter and jelly on the dining terrace. One of the things that, I know that a number of the buildings in the school district is currently studying is the concept of what's called multi -age grouping. And what I wanted to hear from you is how the potential of that concept being used at the elementary level, district wide, was utilized to design this particular building. John Gockel: What it is is that the houses consist of 5 classrooms. What we have here is. Bob Rothman: Grades 1 thru 5 are all in each of the clusters. 13 t4 C 1 L Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Scott: So you have five groups or I thru 5? Bob Rothman: Exactly. So instead of one of these clusters being out here as here's one all grade 2, they're all integrated with each and the school district will then develop their programs on using that notion. David Leschek: I have to apologize for not having a larger scaled plan. However if I could lay this here, and again we'll let the folks at home use their imagination. You asked the question about the multi -age groupings that this facility could occur, or could occur in this facility. This is an enlarged plan of two of the houses within the building and the houses ' themselves consist of 5 classrooms with a teacher planning area and one larger classroom in this location here which is designed to be, or could function as a kindergarten classroom in the future if they were to ever have kindergarten here at this facility. This building is ' currently proposed to handle only 1 thru 5. Mancino: Where does kindergarten go? David Leschek: They use the Early Childhood Center in Chaska currently. Which you know ' they've just done an addition to which houses first graders now but may in the future eventually contain additional kindergartners. In the center of the house then is a team center, as we refer to it, which is used by any one or all five of the classrooms. The classrooms for ' instance, I mean they're grouped in five because you have 1 thru 5 grades here. So when you're talking multi -age, you could have a house could consist of 1 thru 5 or it could consist of five groups of 3rd graders or they may actually mix or match 1st, 2nd grades and 3 -4 someplace else. The flexibility has been designed into each house, whether it be through the number of classrooms or the types of spaces. Whether they be larger spaces, such as this, or the smaller spaces so that they can accommodate large as well as small and function for grades 1 thru 5 or all fifth grade or a multi -age grouping of 2nd and 3rd graders. Scott: Also, another modeling you're probably familiar with is the inclusion model for unique learners. Where are the, and this is great but usually there's an area, and I think most people are familiar with special education. Where is that particular area located? I think I may have missed that. David Leschek: That particular area is located throughout the facility. So when we talk about for instance teacher planning areas, this is where the teachers are for this particular house and included in that staff, if you will for this house, could very well be a special education teacher. So that what they want to develop here is this interaction between not only the teachers of that particular school but also that special ed person who may be i responsible for that person so they can better coordinate that curriculum for that person. ' 14 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 1 �1 L_ A Scott: Okay. David Leschek: Any additional questions? Scott: If there are no additional questions. Mancino: I have a couple more. Was there some stone detailing on the building? Did I read that somewhere in the staff report? ' Bob Rothman: Yeah. Again, going back to the, as Dave had mentioned. As we get our budgets in, one of the things we listed was stone as with a ... alternating. So we're looking at these. Originally we had hoped that these would be stone and now we're looking at bumish masonry but we are looking at some stone accents. For instance window sills might be a Mankato stone or something of that nature. , Mancino: Chaska stone. ' Bob Rothman: Or Chaska stone. Mancino: Yeah, that would be really nice to pull that in. Okay. And, what's the green that I ' saw on the. Bob Rothman: That's a metal roof. A standing seam metal roof. ' Mancino: Do you happen to have a sample of the color of green? Bob Rothman: No, I'm sorry I don't have one. Mancino: Is it a dark? Light? Medium? Bob Rothman: Probably looking at a dark, kind of a forest type green. Any other questions? Thank you very much. 1. � Scott: Good, thank you. This is a public hearing and members of the general public are encouraged to ask questions, express opinions. These are the applicant, the representatives of city staff, Planning Commission members. Are there any members in the audience tonight who would like to address the Planning Commission or any of these other parties? Let the , record show that there are no members of the public who wish to speak. Can I have a motion please to close public hearing? 15 1 1 1 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Farmakes moved, Mancino seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. IMe public hearing was closed. Farmakes: I'll go back to the landscaping, to begin with. I'm concerned, as you brought up some points here on some of the trees that are adjacent to road salt areas of the, I believe it's Galpin and the entryway for the buses to the south to the structure. And I think that that should be looked at. The Arboretum here, the report that she has here and I went to the. same conference she did. There are established trees that are tolerant to salt and I realize that you're not here to talk about that tonight or you don't have representatives of that, but we did have several landscape people there and the Arboretum of course is a well known authority with that kind of stuff. And you may want to look at the survivability of those trees. The other issue, the prairie grass area. I think that that sounds good. The teaching things also may sound good on paper. I'm wondering how translatable that is to practicality and I would advise the school to look closely at that. It is, it has been used and it is being used in some locations here in Chanhassen. They haven't been terribly successful as of yet. As I understand it, and the prairie grass area that I visited in Illinois. They have a park there that they're trying to redo prairie in Illinois where they had bison and it's a lot more rolling acres and so on. As I understood the educational part of that, for prairie grass to truly be prairie grass, there is a lot of different species and there is a total ecosystem that goes with that. Failing that, there is a lot of artificial maintenance that has to be done to maintain it and I'm wondering if the educational value of that may be better served with a wetland or a pond. Or something of that nature that's more indicative of what's here. I also understand that for true prairie grass to thrive, it needs little human contact and as I understand it, all of the kids will be dropped off right in front of the prairie grass so there are some practical aspects to that that you may want to review. The second issue, and the city report touched on this a little bit, is how the movement of people translates to some of the park areas adjacent to the creek. Bluff Creek. And how that works up into some of the recreational facilities on the school property. And I'm not sure that I'm seeing anything there but did the Park Commission look at this? Krauss: Oh, yes. Farmakes: So they looked at this closely and they're satisfied that what they see is integrated well? Krauss: Yes. Farmakes: Okay. These fields, these are K thru Little League? Is that the type of fields that they're going to be? 16 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Krauss: The ballfields are, you're right. They're not adult size. 1. The one thin Farmakes: They're 60 footers for basebal g that I was concerned about is the view of the facility from Highway S. I like the view that they've done from what would be the front of the building facing south and from the east. Or excuse me, from the west. And I like what they've done with the different forms. Making up for some nice shadowing and things that you often don't see on schools. Basically they're, particularly it seems like all the ' ones in the suburbs here built in the 60's, are these big blocks. Mancino: And that's what you see from TH S. Farmakes: Well, this happens to be what was being built back then. I like this much better. Maybe 50 years from now they'll be complaining about it. I am somewhat concerned looking at it from the north and from the east, as you come. When you look at it there's sort of flat expanse on the roof line and when you look at it from the north, it looks like the back of the school. And if there is something that possibly could be done behind the gym area where those windows are to take that facade and break it up a little bit. That would be on this side. Mancino: Now, isn't there a planting there though? ' Farmakes: Well there's several plantings inbetween it. David Leschek: And a vine of sorts too. To sort of help break up. Farmakes: A veining situation coming up the side of the school, yeah. I David Leschek: Yes. And you realize too that that space being a gymnasium space requires that mass. So we tried to address that. Farmakes: Even if it was something to break up the roof line. The tangent line that runs across that large scale box. I know that from the stuff they did at the U of M works nice to ' that effect. The other issues I think I'll leave for some of the stuff that you talked about and I'd just be repeating it and I don't want to take it all. So I'll let you take over. wanted to add one more tree for you to check Mancino: Oh thanks. Dust wan lease on the salt Y P sensitivity. And that would be the red oaks are very sensitive to aerial salt spray and you have the red oaks on the, let's see east side of Galpin in that northeastern area. So if you ' could check with your architect about that. Paul, a couple questions for you. How does this process work? I mean has the School Board of District #112 approved this site plan? I mean as it comes to City Council. City Council. Does it go to the School Board? 17 1 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 1 Krauss: It's not a sequential process. It's not very neat. John Gockel: The School Board is not, they've approved the schematic design. What you're looking at now is about 90% of design development. That will go before the School Board approximately the end of January. Mancino: And what if we have things, if the City Council has suggestions that they want changed in what they see, does the School Board recognize those changes? I mean what happens? John Gockel: The School Board recognizes that it's an ongoing process. One of the things to be aware of is that the, what you're looking at is two separate ownerships also. There's District ownership and there is the city ownership. For example, the gymnasium form that you were talking about is not the District's property. It would be the city's property so there's a blending here. In order for the school to be open in the fall of '95, it has to be under construction this spring so we're going down several parallel paths at the same time. One with the District. One with the City. One with the Planning Commission and various other bodies. Another parallel path that we're going down is the purchase of the land. That should take place by the end of January. The joint use agreement and joint powers agreement and development agreement, all these things are taking place simultaneously. ' Mancino: Now when the City sells the land to the School District, is it obligatory of the School District to build an elementary school there by 1995, and that's the only use it can use it for? Is the whole contract and the whole... predicated on that? And if it doesn't happen, if ' there's not a school being built on it, it's null and void? John Gockel: The District is purchasing the land. That's an agreement. The City and the District will have a joint developers agreement to develop the site. To put buildings out there and ballfields and roads and so forth. That's a second agreement. Not dependent upon the first. The third agreement would be the long, the agreement with a long life and that is how the two governmental entities jointly use the property. Maintain it. Mow the grass. Plow the snow and so forth. Krauss: You're raising an interesting point. I don't know exactly how that will be ... I've got enough to deal with ... but you raise an interesting point. From what I understand about the process, there's relatively little chance of that happening ... I mean there's a $45 million bond issue that was approved... What I'd be a little more concerned about, and I'm not even too concerned about that is, what if the School Board comes back and says gee, this is much too expensive. We've got to go cinder block. - . 4 18 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Mancino: Yep. Krauss: At that point, I mean the School Board is a free agent, same as a developer is. I mean you can come up with conditions that you impose on a developer and they can decide to walk. If the School Board, you're approving a project here. It's like any other project you approve. If radical changes come about, for whatever reason, between now and the tim wed built, then we have to make a call whether or not this is consistent with what you app and if it's not, it's got to come back. I think that's always the bottom line and nobody's really talking radical changes. I mean it's a massive project. There's going to be a lot of fine tuning. But if something really went out of kilter, you still have the site plan approval. It still has to be consistent with that. It's being zoned office institutional so there's not a whole lot else that can go here, which is why we picked that district. Farmakes: Well if there's joint ownership, isn't also the City part of this applicant process right now? Krauss: Exactly and we will continue to own 20 acres of it. Farmakes: But also structure as well, correct? Krauss: A.portion of the structure. Mancino: I can't remember, I lost it. Thanks. Oh I know what it is. If we do rezone to IO, it limits that to schools, public buildings, offices and related uses. What are the related uses? Krauss: Whatever we construe them to be. It's the ordinance gives me the authority to make some interpretations. Failing agreement on that, my call can be expanded by the City Council. It's never been a question. I mean it's a pretty restrictive district. Mancino: I just want to know worst case. Krauss: Well I suppose worst case would be an office building. I mean if you had an office building go on this site, you could say that a daycare center is ... It wouldn't be a truck transfer terminal. Mancino: Going to wetlands. On wetgands were put on the wet designated and I assume that those the grading sheet those that are drained. They're not operational. But they are on here and I just wanted to make sure. ti 19 n r� r_1 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 i Krauss: Yeah, it's kind of confusing. They really don't belong on there and that's what we've ' done over the last two months, three months of clarifying. It's a very confusing subject. It's, by State law you're supposed to use the 1989 Army Corps Handbook. I've been told by people ... that they can go into your back yard and find there's a wetland using that Handbook. So you've got everybody and their mother out there selling services now. There's long standing firms that have been in the wetland identification business and now every surveyor, every engineer is all of a sudden a wetland expert and you're getting a lot of conflicting information. We went the extra mile on this and sent our experts out. We went back and consulted Frank Svoboda who helped us write our ordinance. We've bounced it off the Army Corps and obviously they're comfortable with what we're doing. Conrad: But these were not ma n mapped o our official wetland map. Krauss: We had notes, survey notes of the thing. Of at least one of them on our map and we identified it as a drained wetland. And when we went back in there, the State log, the historical definition of how long had it been drained. The State law is worded so that there's a disincentive for example for authority to drain a wetland and turn around a year later and sell it as developable. But these have been drained as long as anybody can recall. We even checked the Soil Conservation Service and they said, they've been supporting farm measures on this for decades. Mancino: The south, let's see. The widening of Galpin. When I read your report it said that Galpin was going to be, there's four lanes from the south access boulevard up to Highway 5. When I read the Barton - Aschman report that we got, its from Timberline Drive up to Galpin. Krauss: I think what's happening is the road, you don't just go to 4 lanes. You've got to taper it. And the taper does start about that point. 1 Mancino: Okay. I didn't see anywhere in that Barton - Aschman report...I didn't see anything in the discussion for berming and landscaping. Krauss: There isn't and that was a point that was raised by ... City Engineer and it's going to be taken care of Mancino: Okay. The other, I thought I read it in the Barton - Aschman was that there was no mitigation wetlands for that south access boulevard where in your report there is a 5110 of a mitigation that needs to happen where it crosses the creek. Krauss: Yeah ... there may be some and the jury's, we don't have a final... grading plan. How much is going to be impacted. You know, as I say, we've been trying to figure out ... exactly 20 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 where the wetlands are. By and large the wetlands cease to exist at the property line between Timberwood and the farm fields ... So the road may in fact not. What, the road does not cross any standing any wetlands but it does cross Bluff Creek and Bluff Creek at that point ceases to be a very channelized creek as far as ... what is a wetland. So I think there is some and we'll clarify that. Mancino: And it will be a 2 to 1 mitigation, starting in '94? Krauss: We've got to figure out. It's supposed to be as of last Friday or whatever. Yeah, January 1. This is a project that's been in the hopper for 6 months. We've heard of a lot of communities that willy nilly kind of pre - approved all kinds of project before the deadline. We haven't done that. But in this case we're comfortable with the fact that we've worked... It was a project that was submitted to us in October. For a number of reasons we pushed it , back and we'll have to see. Mancino: Well 1'd like to compliment staff on two concerns that I had that you brought up and were very well written in the report about the penthouses and how big they are. I would like to see those scaled down also. And also the reclamation of the corridor creek. I think that's wonderful and I hope we do it north of Highway 5 also. That if there is going to be r development, that we do have that 100 foot buffer of get it back to the original native whatever that is. So I commend you on that. My last thing has to do with bees. I don't ' know where the bees came up but I don't know. That was very interesting. I looked at some of the trees and said, you know crab apples, yeah. They have flowers and they're going to have bees. Lindens. American lindens have flowers. They're flowering. Washington hawthorns are. Clover. I mean we're going to have bees around this area. I don't know. It just doesn't seem to me to be that important. So I like the crab apples and I like the lindens and I like the hawthorns. I like the use of them. I wouldn't want anybody who's allergic to get stung. There's no question about that. But I don't have a big problem with the flowering plants and the trees. And that's it. Scott: Alright. Ladd. , Conrad: Not too many questions. I like what I see. The parking seems to be a long way away from ballfields and stuff like that. I assume we've checked it out for ambulance access and it's there. It can get, we just don't have a problem. Okay. Picking up on the last point in the staff report, or just the point we just covered. Restoring Bluff Creek. Paul, your staff report says, in the recommendations it says per the staff report but basically you are saying per DNR standards. Or whatever DNR says. So that's really what we're saying is talk to the DNR. Restore. 1 21 1 I Planning Commission Meeting - January S, 1994 Krauss: Right. If I knew the answer to that ahead of time, we would be more specific. We don't but we're working with people who I think will tell us. Conrad: Okay. I think that's a neat piece. The only other thing I've got is Bluff Creek access. I'm not a real, I really don't understand the whole corridor but I know you need access to utilize it. For real people to get there and, is this going to me? Scott: News flash. Conrad: It's a news flash. I can't talk and read at the same time. But anyway, here we have an education site that connects to Bluff Creek which is, in my mind, just a perfect place for a real access to Bluff Creek. Now maybe there are other accesses with parking lots and what have you so you can really utilize the corridor. Maybe there are. I don't know that but here we have one. It connects. It's at a school. It should really be integrated into Bluff Creek. - Right here. So again, I love what I see. My only comment is, if we want to make use of, if we really believe in Bluff Creek and you want to put a lot of attention to it and restoring, let's make sure people have a way of getting there and a place to park their car. This looks like to me the place to do it. That's all I have. Scott: Good. Matt. ' Ledvina: Just a couple more things to add. I think, I'm very concerned with the construction of this south access boulevard as it relates to the trees along the south property boundary. Now as I read the engineering plans, there's more than a 10 foot fill in the lowest spot where that quasi wetland area is. And if the roadway is going right up within the dirt line of the trees and you've got a 10 foot fill, that's not going to work. So without damaging those trees and I don't know the extent of that tree line and what significance that would have to the ' folks associated with Timbercreek but I guess what I want, and I know that's not at issue here today and I know that that will all be revisited but again, I just want to raise my concern as it relates to the grade of that road and potentially the alignment. I know perhaps it could be shifted just slightly to the north to accommodate retaining walls or fill slopes or whatever is necessary there. But again. Krauss: The City Engineer and I have looked at that and we had the same question and we're pretty certain that if need be, and we need to get the details on that, that the road could be routed 15 -20 feet north in most places and not really compromise anything on the school site and just going to provide that separation in the roof lines. Ledvina: There's also some grade changes that can be done to reduce that fill down. I don't know how much but you know maybe 2, 4 feet. Every little bit helps when you're in that 22 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 situation. Let's see. I guess the only other thing I have to add, and we've touched on this as it relates to Bluff Creek and I see the plan calls for grading within 20 feet of the center line and I wouldn't want to see the plan move forward. The grading plan in this fashion. I think that may be too close to the center line and if we are looking at essentially an all dirt drainageway here, we are trying to restore it, well then that has merit and there would be grading right, all the way into the center line if that's the case. But when I looked at this, these plans I assumed that the channel was in it's natural condition and maybe that's not the case so, through filling, you know erosion and sedimentation of the agricultural areas here. l could see that. I would definitely support the restoration to the original conditions for the corridor. Scott: Diane. Harberts: I guess I look at it from a public safety perspective. I know schools are very in tune to the whole public safety liability. Has our Public Safety Department, committee taken a look at this? Do they need to? Krauss: I don't know if the Public Safety Committee has. We've circulated copies of the plans to the Public Safety Department. Harberts: That might be redundant because I'm certainly aware of how much it's scrutinized by school districts or schools. The only other comment I made earlier was that I'd like to see a recommendation number 8 added with regard to working with Southwest Metro in the designing of the drop- off /pick -up turn around elements for public transit because it is so heavily used by the elementary kids. Scott: What's the status of the trail system? And I'm thinking from the standpoint of having kids from adjacent neighborhoods who will be walking or will any child in this, you might now know this right now but will every child who goes to that elementary be taking the bus? Krauss: I think basically, well I don't know ... In terms of the trails, with the upgrading of Galpin ... the County does their piece and the County by the way is using city money ... Turn back of TIF dollars so we can finance the upgrade of Galpin...If that happens, we'll have a trail down Galpin. Basically from Highway 5 to Lyman Blvd. We've already had Hans Hagen build a portion of it. With the east/west collector, which is also .... by the time the school opens, we could well have the trail I hope basically over to Audubon. There's a chance, or shortly thereafter when the school opens. And with what's happening on the Centex property and the Opus property, we may have it over to TH 41 on the other side. What we won't have in the near term is a way to get across Highway 5. But you will have a signalized intersection at Galpin. 23 1 fl n 1 t 1 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5jA994 Harberts: I have a question for Paul. Or maybe John. You know I've been working with some of the school districts with regard to the shortings that they have in school bus funds and when you put a location like this out in the sticks a little bit, has the school looked at the access by kids walking? By kids riding their bikes. You know have they looked at it from how practical will that be? Is there a safety issue that they have to address with that? Has that been part of the discussion in terms of the design like this? You know what's the current ' track? Is it to have the kids ride bikes or whatever, and if we're going to have community facilities like this, you know what's that element like too in terms of that kind of access because with what we're seeing for growth, with what we're seeing you know earlier tonight in terms of land use. You know some single family, multi - family even adjacent to that. What's the trail system going to be like to like I said, make that more pedestrian friendly access like that? Has that been integrated into the discussion at all? John Gockel: Yes. One of the attractive aspects of this particular site was it's proximity to anticipated trail systems. As far as, you know obviously safety is very important to the district. We, I think we almost came to blows over who was more concerned about caring for the kids and the school. Whether it was the parks commission or the principal. They both claimed to be the end all of being concerned about that. You know as far as kids riding ' bicycles to schools like many of us probably did. We don't live in those kinds of communities any more. We're all out in the suburbs with people spread all over the place and roads separating. So most of the kids will come by bus. Like I said, one of the attractive aspects of this site was it's proximity to the trail systems. Many sites didn't even offer that potential. So this building, this facility is not in the sticks ... as some of the sites we looked at. Harberts: Are there going to be bike racks put into this facility? John Gockel: There will be some bike racks. Harberts: But it's not the feeling that there's going to be a lot of access, at least for school class time by bike but maybe Paul by, for the community or the city rec. Krauss: Oh eah. I think when you look, when this lace opens u b the way, we may Y Y P P P� Y Y� Y also have the link completed if this Chan Corporate Center develops and comes in, we might have the link down to Bluff Creek railway crossing which would mean that ... and all the industrial, the people working there will be able to hop on that trail and go up to the ballfields and yeah. That kind of thing will occur... Harberts: You know recalling my younger days which weren't so long ago, right? You know with that pedestrian bridge that's going over on Highway 5, I can see people from the north side of town, central city here, crossing over and riding, walking, Rollerblading, or whatever 1 1 24 f n Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 even down to that location. It's not really that far if you're out on a Sunday afternoon or whatever. And if there's activities like that in the summer, that's the kind of thing and that's why I see that pedestrian bridge being real key too in terms of that kind of trail system. I mean that's not that much of a hike. It's probably going to be a nice walk or however they want to use it. So I guess that's, and I guess part of that public safety, you know like I said, I'm very well aware of it and how well school district's scrutinize that but it's just a question. That's it. Scott: Okay. Can I have a motion? Harberts: I'll make a motion. Scott: Okay. I Harberts: Let me look at my page 13. I'll recommend that the Planning Commission approve Site Plan Review #93 -6, Rezoning from A2 to OI and Preliminary Plat for the School District #112 /City of Chanhassen Recreational Complex, subject to the following conditions. Number 2 we would add letter (e). To revise the landscaping plan as follows. To address the salt spray with some of the landscaping elements suggested in earlier comments. Number 8. That ' the applicant work with Southwest Metro in the designing of the drop off, pick -up, turn around element that will accommodate public transit. I just have one question for Matt before I close. Did you want to have anything with regard to supporting that it's restored to the original conditions of the corridor that you talked about? Ledvina: Sure. Mancino: Isn't that in here? ' Harberts: I'm not sure if that's fully covered. Scott: Well number 4 doesn't quite address, because it just says stay out of the flood plain ' but that has nothing to do with the restoration. Ledvina: No, that'd be appropriate. Harberts: Yep, and how would you like to see that worded? Ledvina: I would think that. Harberts: This would be added to number 4. i 25 L Planning Commission Meeting - January 5,'1994 Ledvina: I would think that we could state that the applicant shall investigate the feasibility of restoring the Bluff Creek corridor to it's original alignment and. Krauss: I'm sorry but does 2(b) get to that? Harberts: It's hard to say. Ledvina: Provide plans that respond to the goal, I would think so. I'm sorry. I didn't see that. Harberts: Okay, so you're comfortable. Mancino: You could put it on page 7. Harberts: Okay, as described in the staff report on page 7? Ledvina: Sure. Scott: Is that strong enough? Okay. Harberts: Okay. So basically we want to amend 2(b) to add that in the staff report as outlined in page 7. And I'll move that recommendation. Scott: Okay. Is there a second? Mancino: Second. Scott: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion? Farmakes: What about the roof line on that gym? Harberts: On the west side? No, it wasn't on the west side. Farmakes: It'd be on the northeast comer. The gym and the city portion of the building. Harberts: Yeah, is that covered in number 1 or not? I wasn't sure. Farmakes: I'm not sure it does. Mancino: ... a little bit better specifically? F. 1 t Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Farmakes: We could maybe word it, the city should look at alternatives to dealing with the tangent massing roof line created by the gym and the support areas. Harberts: Considered as number 9. Farmakes: We could add it as a separate motion. Scott: We'll skip the friendly amendment stuff. I think you're. Harberts: That would be added number 9. What Jeff had just stated. Scott: Are we all comfortable voting on that motion? Do we all understand what the intent is and so forth? Farmakes: The reason I bring it up as an intent is I'm wondering from that particular comer of the building, based on what we've been reviewing with other applicants, whether or not we would approve that. I look at it as say Target. I don't think we would approve that and why is the city any different? Harberts: Are you clarifying the intent of number 1 then? Or are we. Farmakes: Well I didn't see that as, I saw that as more towards the issue of penthouse but if you want to interrupt massiveness. Krauss: You're spanning the scope of 1. I think the ... came up with and just tack it on to. Farmakes: Tack it on? Harberts: Okay, as number 9? Krauss: Or rather as expand 1... Harberts: Oh, just expand 1, okay. I understand that intent. Scott: Okay, so basically expand item number 1 to include reviewing the external treatment of the gymnasium section so that it appears. Farmakes: Break up the roof line. Scott: Break up the roof line. 27 1 I � I r-1 I I � i r Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Farmakes: Alternatives for breaking up the roof line. Scott: Okay. We've moved and seconded. Is there any discussion? I think we just had discussion. Harber s moved, Mancino seconded that the Planning Commission recommend that the City Council approve Site Plan Review #93 -6, Rezoning from A2 to OI and Preliminary Plat the School District #112 /City of Chanhassen Recreational Complex, subject to the following conditions: Revise architectural plans to verify that all rooftop HVAC equipment is concealed from Highway 5 and other views by enclosed penthouses, respond to staffs proposals for minimizing the massiveness of the penthouses and make provisions for a concealed trash enclosure as outlined in the staff report. Also, that the applicant look at alternatives to the external treatment of the gymnasium section to minimize ifs massiveness. 2. Revise the landscaping plan as follows: a. Provide reforestation for the knoll located in the southwest corner of the site. b. Provide plans that respond to the goal of restoring Bluff Creek Corridor as described in the staff report on page 7. c. Provide a chain link safety fence between the roadways and ballfields. d. Revise parking lot landscaping as required to meet current ordinance requirements for tree species and green space. e. To address some of the landscaping concerns as related to tolerance to salt spray. 3. Provide a trail connection between the terminus of the creek trail at soccer field #2 and ' extend it to the access boulevard. Provide a sign indicating the presence of a temporary dead end for the trail component running north from soccer field #2. 4. Provide final grading, utility, erosion and ponding plans for City approval. No building or grading is to occur until final plans have been provided. Grading plans are to be revised to protect the Bluff Creek Corridor and stay out of the flood plain. 5. Project approval by the Riley/Purgatory/Bluff Creek Watershed District. 6. Revise the plat to describe the right -of -way for Galpin, the access boulevard, to the outlot and the future right -of -way needed for Highway 5 widening. Revise plans as necessary to stay clear of the future Highway 5 right -of -way and Galpin Boulevard right -of -way and maintain a minimum 35 foot setback from Galpin Boulevard. 28 E Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 1 1 7. Relocate the staff parking lot as required to maintain 50 foot setback. 8. Word with Southwest Metro Transit in designing the drop -off, pick-up and turn mound elements to accommodate public transit. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Scott: And this will be going to the City Council? Krauss: On January 24th. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Farmakes moved, Mancino seconded to approve the Minutes of the Planning Commission meetings dated December 1, 1993 and December 4, 1993 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ADMINISTRATNE APPROVALS. Mancino: You know this packet, the two letters you wrote to Brad and to Mr. Hiscox. You're talking about our schedule for the next two months or, my life is planned now. On February 2nd my question is Paul, we're going to look at a Chanhassen Corporate Center concept PUD. Will that have some conflict of again Highway 5? And having the Highway 5 draft approved and everything? Krauss: Well it puts you in the same ballpark that you were in when you reviewed Opus and you reviewed Centex. That you're being asked to do something and ... a concept and anything you do would be contingent upon adoption... Mancino: Okay. Just so close to Highway 5, I was wondering if we'd want to wait and do anything on Highway 5 until after City Council is done. Okay. Scott: Okay. Any other administrative approvals or open discussion? Ledvina: I had a question on the Industrial Performance Standards. Why was this review initiated? Krauss: ...regarding documents that need ... We read a book ... so I asked Bob to check it against our standards to see if we were still current. 29 1 t 1 1 1 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Ledvina: Okay, so this was regulating city planning type stuff? Krauss: Yeah... Farmakes: Are we still in open discussion? Scott: Yes. Open discussion. Farmakes: I have a question of Paul. At the end of our meeting ere, or work session we g , saw a couple of developments. I'm surprised we haven't seen something from the Mill's property. Has there been any further bringing forward of what their development would be or are we expecting to see several possible developments from the future either taking into regard the work that was done on TH 5 or totally disregarding it? Is that the, is there anything else out there in the closet? Krauss: Nothing that I've been made aware of. You know I think I reported to you that... where they thought the road should be with MnDot and ... talk to us. Farmakes: Interesting. Well we'll get a very disjointed road I think by the time we're done. It will be quite a patchwork. I was I guess surprised by the developments that were brought forward. I don't know if anyone else was expecting to see a golf course. I had heard rumors about that... I'm just wondering if we're looking, it hasn't been altered as I understand for the last couple of years. Mancino: It was never brought in front of the Highway 5 Task Force. Farmakes: Well he said it was a possibility I believe. He did get up and mention it ... or at least as we know it. Scott: Well, and like I kind of shared with some of the other people. I'm the first one to say that I'm not a golf course designer but I do play a fair amount of golf and I'm very familiar with what the USGA specifies as far as tee to green minimums and maximums for different par lengths and just from what I know as a golfer, that golf course layout would not, he would not be able to get that approved by the USGA. And it looked like it was pretty maxed out as far as tee to greens but. Krauss: Well also when you look at that, I mean Mike needed, he has 11 homes on a private driveway. I mean he's got an existing driveway curb cut now for his home and he's entitled to have one access to the highway but nobody's going to be very desirous of having him expand that so that you serve a golf course, club house and family homes. Then he had a u 30 E Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 multi family senior building with another driveway. The fact is, you need a road to serve that someplace. Farmakes: The park commission, once I saw that drawing, is the park commission, a little bell went off in my head. Have they looked into the long term connectiveness of that leg to Lake Ann, going around to the trail system that the city already has? Krauss: I know that they have. I know they've talked about it ... and I believe it's in their current comprehensive plan update. But in the past, you know there were some links in there, it's been showed ... links that got knocked out around the north side of Prince where there's kind of the isthmus between the two lakes. Farmakes: I'm very familiar with that property. I Krauss: ...and I think that was knocked out 5 -6 years ago. Farmakes: Well, there's no reason to knock it out. There are current trails there following, even before Prince was there. There is a natural trail already that follows the lake and goes out to right in front of his, in fact it connects with the existing park and beach. And none of that area is developed and it goes all the way around to the creek on the north side that divides Prince's property from the park that the city owns. And there is a natural trail there. In fact there is a natural trail that goes around Lake Lucy also and connects on the other side. I assume that these were deer trails at one time and they're probably expanded by the previous owners and I know. Mancino: Horses. Farmakes: Well Larson owned the property before Prince. I believe he hired a caretaker couple and their job in the winter time was to cut out the dead fall and keep those trails open. And it is, it's an enormous asset and I know that a future asset but I know that by the topography of the land, and the setbacks that the State currently requires, much of that land would be difficult to develop. And if we do have some leeway with trails, I know that there's some difficulty putting trails in the back of people's homes. But based on what we've already invested in Lake Ann, it would seem to me that at least in the long term scope, that maybe they should start thinking about that a little more seriously. Krauss: I'll raise it again to Todd. I know it's something he's discussing... Farmakes: Because Prince owns the majority of, owns all of that property around the lake and I don't know what any pieces missing would be. I a 31 1 ' Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Krauss: Yeah interestingly we've, I think I mentioned this, we've had some fairly serious sounding interest in developing Prince's property. I mean beyond somebody just making a wild call and saying, what would you let me do on this property. It sounded like some people... Farmakes: But the division between Lake Lucy and Lake Ann, the strip that goes up there and then as it gets to the west there's sort of a rise of the land and down on each side there's quite a slope that comes out. If you take the setbacks required and any roads that would have to access that property, it's undevelopable. You cannot develop it. And if you put a road plus the setbacks, that's all you're going to get because there isn't going to be any room for a 1 house. And at least that's really, if you take that into consideration, you've got 3/4 of the lake there already. And except for that west side that connects and that little bit of the south where, I don't believe he's developed a beach area there. It's essentially wild. Krauss: If you go on our beach and walk to the end of our... Farmakes: Right. And there is a little trail there because I've walked it many times over the years and it goes back through there. Connects back to Prince's property and then you go up a hill and then you go down and basically there's an existing trail that people have driven cars on. That goes around the lake. So it is a, it'd be a real future resource I think when something like Lake Harriet comes to mind. Scott: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I concur with that 100 %. Ledvina: I have a question regarding Highway S. Now to kind of change the subject but we talked about an ordinance that is going to be ready for us to review. What's the schedule on that? Krauss: Well basically the standards are in the back of the plan. Ledvina: They're in Chapter 7, is that correct? Krauss: Yeah. Ledvina: Okay. So that's going to provide the framework for the ordinance? Krauss: Right. We're having the attorney just take that and put it into ordinance form so that he can review that... 1 Ledvina: So that's two meetings... 1 32 1 L' Planning Commission Meeting -January 5 1994 Harberts: Do you think the public hearing will go two meetings? = Krauss: I hope not. Harberts: That's full meetings. Or one full meeting. Ledvina: The reason that I ask is we didn't even scratch that in terms of Krauss: Oh well the next work session next Wednesday, is devoted to that. Mancino: And nothing else? I Krauss: Well, we've got to finish up a couple of these land use things. Scott: I've got a quick question too on a work session. My personal opinion is that a work session is for the Planning Commission and staff to work things out and it's nice to have people talk but personally I don't think there's any place to have outside input, unless it's something that we ask somebody to do ahead of time. But I'm not familiar with what we can and can't do at a work session. But my guess is. Conrad: We have control. Scott: Yeah. Then I would rather not see any of that kind of stuff unless it's been requested by city staff. Krauss: ...when Mike Gorra says he's been talking about this for 2 years. I don't want to argue with him but two years ago the city was talking about a golf course and I believe he met with Don and said well, I might like to do that someday. Scott: Weren't they talking about potentially buying Bluff Creek Golf Course? Krauss: Yeah. Right, and Mike ... said you can't do that because I'm going to plan a...golf course and every time we said, well you know if you're really serious, show us ... I didn't think you could squeeze one in on 140 acres. I talked to Fred Hoisington and he said you could but you've got to use up all the land. Well, he's taking 10 acres of it for those houses and then he's got that senior so I don't know. big residential development on that roe Scott: I have a feeling were going to see a g P property rh' and not a golf course. I 33 1 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Krauss: Yeah, well it's... Harberts: Do we have a time on that meeting next Wednesday? Is that at 6:00? Krauss: Was it on the schedule for 6:.00? Harberts: Yeah. Would you like send out a reminder or something or have someone call us. Conrad: When do we elect a new Chairman? Scott: When do we adjourn? Krauss: You can do that right now actually if you feel like it, before you adjourn. Conrad: Brian's gone? Brian's gone. Krauss: We did not send Brian a packet, I'm assuming that he's formally off and Brian wasn't planning on coming I gather. Conrad: Oh I thought he was. Mancino: I thought we were going to wait until we got the new person to elect... Farmakes: Well the seat's been taken so I don't think that Brian's going to show up anyway. Scott: I think we should wait to do anything formal until we have our new person on board. Or do you care? Conrad: No. That doesn't mean anything. Scott: Okay. I just figured out courtesy. Conrad: No. We don't care. They don't know how to vote. They'll be invalid to vote. Scott: That's kind of like when the 3 of us were voting. Krauss: Whatever you want to do... Harberts: Let's just do it. I nominate Joe for Chair. 34 Planning Commission Meeting - January 5, 1994 Ledvina: I second that nomination. Harbetu moved, Ledvina seconded to appoint Joe Scott as Cludrnan of the Planning Commission for 1994. All voted in favor and the motion canied. Conrad: For Vice Chairman, Chairperson, I nominate Nancy. Scott: I'll second that. Conrad moved, Scott seconded to appoint Nancy Mancino as Vice Chairman of the Planning Commission for 1994. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mancino moved, Fatmakes seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carved. IMe meeting was adjourned at 10:38 p.m. Submitted by Paul Krauss Planning Director Prepared by Nann Opheim W: 1 1 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING DECEMBER 14, 1993 Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Larry Schroers, Jan Lash, Jim Andrews, Jim Manders, Ron Roeser, Jane Meger and Fred Berg STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Coordinator; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor; and Dawn Lemme, Program Specialist APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Lash moved, Roeser seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated November 16, 1993 as presented All voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. NEW CHANHASSEN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL /CITY COMPONENTS DESIGN, DEVELOPMENT INPUT. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Schroers: Space requirements, as we can see here is, it's limited. I mean what there is is what we have and in the task force we have tried to do everything reasonable to best take advantage of the space that's available by having dividers in rooms. By having dividers in the gym and by sectioning off the gym. Putting in a number of retractable basketball hoops so we can have half courts and 3/4 courts and that sort of thing and use the space that we have to the fullest. Is there any comment or question regarding the space issue of the rooms or the gymnasium or what they can potentially be used for? Andrews: Are we supposed to go through this like room by room. Make these little ' questions and answers here. Hoffman: Yep. Yeah, there's room for general discussion but these are the specifics that ' came out of that meeting. Schroers: Okay well. We may as well start then with room 43. It's kind of hard to keep ' switching over but it's pretty easy. Andrews: I guess for Room 43, the sign board. I guess my main concern there would be vandalism. Is it going to be the type of board that is covered up, enclosed and locked. And 150 square foot room which is also the entryway, I don't think allows enough room for a pay 1 � I I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 phone to be put in there. Schroers: I think it's better to have a pay phone in the lobby because the phone is more ' likely to be used there for legitimate reasons. I mean kids wouldn't be. Andrews: ...phones which they will be better probably to have in the lobby. Better supervised. More secured. Schroers: Okay. Room 44. Should 3 to 5 vending machines be located here? Berg. YP • Is there anyplace else they can go? ' Schroers: Who said we had to have 3 to 5 vending machines anyway? Lash: Don't have to but when I think about it, I think a lot of times people, they take a break from their game or right after their game if they're dying of thirst, it's kind of nice to have a pop machine. Roeser: I'd rather see vending machines than video games. Berg: Okay, that's what I thought they meant by vending machines when I first saw this is those blasted video games. If we have those within 100 yards of the place. Lash: ...school during the day so kids couldn't go out to the vending machines during the school day. Hoffman: Well, there's going to be doors there. Whether or not they're locked from the school to the facility. Most likely they'll end up locking it. There will be a security camera there that will be in the administrative office and in the office of the rec center. ' Lash: I guess I don't have personally a problem with a couple of vending machines. Manders: Yeah, that'd be fine with me. Lash: Snacks or candy or something. ' Roeser: But I'm not sure video games are good. ' Meger: No video. 1 1 2 0 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Andrews: No video. I think we've got consensus there. Schroers: Okay. Lash: Okay, so we said no to video games and you said yes to the following? Roeser: Yeah. Lash: What would be the purpose of the display cases? Just out of curiosity. What would you put in there? Hoffman: Community artwork, awards, special displays. Schroers: How about an events calendar. - You could Hoffman: An events calendar would go in the display y down the display b case out this also duplicate that on the interior. There was once push to P lobby but there just wasn't enough room. Lash: Like what kind of awards? I guess I'm just not getting an idea of what would go there. Hoffman: It's miscellaneous stuff. The City's a member of City U s a We could sponsor or get a variety of things. Even the community things on behalf of people. Those types of things. Or we could focus on some times the teams, the community .teams get a trophy and nobody wvill wants cruet classes classes o�that and those could go out here. And then general, there nature in the community rooms. You could have focus every 3 months ... and put those type of displays in there on what type of classes... Lash: What kind of expense does that? If they're very expensive I guess I wouldn't be that inclined to go for it. But if they re not that expensive, then I guess. Hoffman: ...the time to put them in, if you're going to put them in, is right off the bat because you have to plan for the recess of the cases. Andrews: I think we should do it because I think if we don't, I think we'll probably wish we had. K t fl I I 7 ..J u Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 �i Lash: When you're saying opposite Room 11, you're talking about that first wall ...? What ' are you saying when you're saying opposite Room 11? Schroers: There will be no shortage for things going into the display case. If nothing else, ' somebody will make something artsy and put in it. Hoffman: Right on this wall. ' Lash: Oh, right there. ' Hoffman: So you lost me. We're into the vending machines. The video's out? Lash: Yep. ' Hoffman: Okay. And we considered the a hone should be there but the vending Y PYP g machines, that's obviously an adult perspective. We consider the youth perspective, what they're going to go to this center for. I just want to be safe in that regard. When we talk about Filly's and why the kids go there. We talk about why kids go to certain locations. ' Dawn and I, while we had the conversation among staff is how we want that lobby to feel. Do we want it to be a hang out or is this going to be all youth or adult. Schroers: I think we're promoting parks and recreation, not entertainment. I think video game in my opinion is kind of entertainment and not really part of a rec, parks and recreation program. ' Lash: Well and part of my fear, I know what it's like when a kid starts playing video games and they get started and then they lose total track of everything else. So if they are there 5 _ minutes or waiting for their game and they're going to play a quick video game and then they're not going to get into their game, or if you're supposed to be waiting in the parking lot to pick up your kid after the game and they stop there for a few minutes to play a quick game and then they're all hung up playing the game. Roeser: Is this going to the City Council besides here though? Hoffman: ...decision? Roeser: Yeah. Berg: We're promoting family activities. Video's not it. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Lash: I mean if we get a huge outcry because it's not there, we can deal with it then. Right now I think everybody feels pretty strongly. ' Berg: I think it ruins Chaska when you walk in there. ' Lash: Absolutely. Berg: A gang of people playing the video games. That's not my idea of recreation. ' Lemme: We had that lengthy discussion. , Roeser: She was saying something. Lash: So what was your position Dawn? Now we want to know. ' Lemme: ...because like Todd said, you have to look at it from a perspective of what is the image that you want to portray and who are you attracting to come in there. And so as t rying not to look at it from just my opinion on video games. I'm sure you've all weighed both sides. , Lash: Did we go with the display cases? Berg: Yes. Andrews: I'd like to see casual upholster type rather than the plastic sterile type. ' Lash: I was thinking something nice. I always liked the look where there's sort of island with the seats all around. Maybe a planter or something in the middle and then you could have, if there's room, a couple of odd chairs or bench type seating around the walls. Berg: Speaking of plants, that's not anything that's on here but I was just touring a new ' school today and very much institutional except the thing that saved it was lots of green. If we could have some real green plants in this lobby. n ' Hoffman: That whole wall there is glass. That entry wall. This is all glass coming down. The school has a very long corridor and the doors would start right here after you're all in there. The security doors between the school and... Lash: And which is the glass wall? 1 t,o 5 1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14; 1993 Hoffman: This entire wall is glass. All the way down in the school hallway. Berg: That gives such a feeling of warmth. ' Hoffman: We started to sketch in this wall, right here as you look out the reception area will be lowered to a half wall so you have the full view of the lobby. And we talked about a couch type arrangement in here with the table and seats to create that island type effect. Any ' vending would go in here. The phone location would probably go in the center of the lobby somewhere. We also thought about some benches. Potentially this is a comfortable bench out in front of those windows. You could offset those with planters. This will be the place ' for green. In addition, inside these rooms. You know the dancing room is probably not a plant type of a room. ' Schroers: I don't know if it's premature yet but are the custodial people from the school, are they going to be taking care of our part of the building as well? ' H Most likely. ' Schroers: As far as cleaning and that sort of thing. Hoffman: Yes. We will probably cut a contract where they will perform the inside of those ' maintenance and we will perform the exterior maintenance—as to holds. ' Schroers: If you had someone else doing it, the upholstered furniture's really nice. If you've got to do it yourself, you don't want it. i Hoffman: There will be staff here all the time and those people will be able to ... intermediate type maintenance duties. What we'll find is they probably won't have a lot of time. Schroers: The upholster looks real nice w Ii acc'umulp � p l�t t and fuzz from sweaters and hair looking real tacky. Worse than a plastic. and that sort of thing and it's kind of a high maintenance item to keep clean. Lash: What kind of flooring is going to be in that area? And walls. Hoffman: In the entryway I believe it's tile. We start with some tile. Lash: The lobby area? C P ark and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 .' Hoffman: Yeah. ' en how about the walls? Are they Just plain walls or is it buck? Lash: And th h I �� them to ' ,concrete masonry block. Concrete block painted• block into Hoffman: Masonry exciting• Can we Put some broken face type incorporate it. I said that's not very process, all these t to understand that as we went throug this ' the program? You've go to come in low shoot you a price and then what they try real P� so �ey're architects come m and they ht now, they obviously because they want to make their budget el l et. ll t o ' And they said well we'll look at some Ad on ot some the add g. painted concrete masonry of thin alternates. Sometimes your b base , s block of Wig... Would you rather come into a painted block type ' High there. Where the got their gym etonka West Jr you've been sent to a maximum Andrews: Go into that, aimed Minn and you feel like y facilities. It's that blue p ' security prison. brought up But well now I guess Lang Lash: Maybe we could have a mural or f th et u p o ls � ed• I like the look of it but if it's , the concern about, I like Jim's idea too of he up going to look tatty right away. ' Andrews: You can have a combination too with padded seats but plastic backs. Hoffman: Or wood. Have wood arm rests and cloth seats. ' 're nice. They the deal is that they ou don't al nice but they require quite a lot of m aintenance and the Schroers: Yeah, I have re bunch of those and they, of comfortable. They look look dirty. They've g c et to maintain them on regular basis, they g over them. They've Sot popcorn stuck down in the cracks and they're They've got lint a ll o ' quite a bit more work. options or would that take too Lash: Is it possible to get a catalog that shows some different ossibilities are. long? I mean I can't even envision what some of the different p om onent of you'll be buying this later on down the line. This is not a fixed c P Hoffman: Yo ' the building so. Lash: Well maybe we need to look at that one a little more- 7 , Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993. Schroers: In regards to other seating and furniture, is your question pretty much answered on that? Hoffman: In the lobby area, yeah. ' Berg: Why do we need a television? ' Schroers: That's what I say. Andrews: It's one thing you look at that room, it's too small. I mean there's just not a floor plan. Schroers: Who's going to sit there long enough to watch TV? Meger: And why would we want them to. Berg: Why are they there. To create couch potatoes at a community center. Lash: Another thing. If there's a major outcry, you can hang one on the wall. I wouldn't have a problem with that. If you wanted to redo it now and then someday. Roeser: I just think if kids sitting around waiting for someone to pick them up and things like that, that sometimes it's not bad to have a TV set in a room like that. ' Lash: I guess that's why I think it would be fine to put in the jack and then we can see if it's something we want to put in later, at least we can. i Schroers: That's reasonable. I like that. Hoffman: The other potential about a TV jack would be that if we ever get into an electronic ' bulletin board of activities being posted like you see at many facilities, that might be a real good way to do that so you can have an ongoing updated, you know this is in this room This is in that room. That kind of stuff. That can be real... Schroers: Okay. Then going over to Room 40A. Staff has proposed that sections A and B have vinyl tile flooring and Sections B and C be carpeted. What is our opinion? Hoffman: The two end ones would be vinyl and this would be carpeted in the interior. Roeser: What was that again? Do that again? 1 N. Park an d Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Hoffman: Tile on th two ends and then carpet throughout the center. Manders: I guess the way this one reads, it doesn't read that way. ' Lash: It says A and B would have vinyl. ' Manders: A and B, which are the bottom two. ' Lash: A -B have vinyl. C and D have carpet. Hoffman: It's the two end ones. And what that is based on is that then use doors s wall ' craft and this wall would be ... operating time. These two rooms are things and the flooring which is oriented because they have the kitchen sets and those type where you ' conducive to th at. And the center area can be a t for meetings of a lternatives though that is one ve a more relaxed type atmosphere. There that came to bear so you can switch those around a lot. When the doors. about When y ou have an about how it will work, when you open up a der, they're when you talk you have sp activity, which way is it going to be oriented and we think if Y podium here and you're going to orient YO onto the the o c We stalked about if we have the center car g oin g to be at a po et and the two ends spilling over ' wedding in here, you would probably have the band, DJ down on one end or of a y ou have a down the center. That typ ' other. Perhaps the food line on the back side and of activities which would be scheduled and layout so we're trying to come up with some type for our input. how that flooring would w ork with activities. So we're looking y Berg: One of the things that the high school that somebody brought up that I had never , thought about, is there any concern with the carpet that there are chemicals in the carpeting that over the course of time c an be injurious? ' Hoffman I saw that on what, 60 Mi nutes . Something of that nature. I think we can bring ' that up when we go through specs- tile oes Lash: My initial reaction was to have both the carpeted ones right together then a d bot be the s together so that when you opened the door of the on guess the other way makes sense too. I , kind of floor. But with the ... that you dust made just didn't understand the reason for doing that. Schroers: Is it real necessary to have a carpeted area for the meetings? I mean you just don't have a meeting atmosphere if you have a tile floor? ' 9 1 Ci Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Lash: Is it acoustical more than anything? Hoffman: Yeah, think about putting a 12 x 12 vinyl tile floor in here and how comfortable would it be to come in here for meetings. ' Roeser: Yeah, or if you're going to have receptions. If you're going to use the thing for wedding receptions and things like that. I think it's better with carpeting. ' Lash: The other thing I thought was, if you are having the two craft rooms and you have them next to each other, you'd have both rooms with sink facilities so if you had a larger group that had to have sink facilities, you'd have them right next to each other and you could take the wall down. ' Hoffman: That's a good point. We're also not sure what those little kitchenettes are going to end up looking like... I Lash: How about economically, I would think it would make more sense to have the plumbing, no? ' Hoffman: It will be running up and down this whole corridor. Restrooms. Andrews: I like your suggestion Todd of the carpet in the middle. I think if there were to be ' a food service operation, it would, it's going to take up some space and that could be in the file section. Then the people could seat in the more comfortable carpeted area if they wanted to do it that way. And I think it makes sense to have it as you suggested with the two middle sections as carpet. Manders: Especially if you have all the floor open. It works out well that way. Hoffman: I think we talked a lot about the gym and the active space. I think this room is ' going to be programmed to the hilt. Lash: And then the other two rooms are what? One's aerobics and what's the other one? ' Schroers: Fitness room. Hoffman: And aerobics. Lash: So like workout equipment? 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Hoffman: Workout equipment, rubber matting flooring, wood floors, mirrors, dance classes, aerobics. ' Berg: What was the carpet, those health concerns of mine? Hoffman: Yeah, that was a big deal. Schroers: Okay, are we in agreement that will work with the carpeting the floors? Okay, , then let's move on to the Room 41. The fitness room. What would you like to see? Lash: Do we have to do the Section B and D first? ' Schroers: Well we kind of covered it. I Hoffman: How i ... to the commission? Andrews: I think they're important. I don't know how you can do food prep without the ability to heat food. Lash: Even for crafts. A lot of crafts you have to have a stove. , Hoffman: Okay. ' Berg: Are there bathrooms in this whole corridor, along here somewhere? Hoffman: R m estroos are located here and here. They will be moved to the north and this , storage room as noted will go down next to the office. We have office, storage ... restrooms right across the hall. ' Berg: So there are plenty, okay. Andrews: Todd, I know this sounds kind of wacky but with what's going on in the computer world today, and they talk about the electrical, the 110 and the cable TV and so forth, I would hope they're going to wire this for a data, separate data path too for the whole building. I mean there are going to be things that e can be done that we can't even envision right now and the cost to rewire it again would b Lash: I guess I would see that in the meeting area room too. A lot ofpe people will have VCR's and TV's and things for different presentations. And anything else that you would need like a screen ... any of those kinds of things I guess for presentations. Mic. A mic jack. %:p 11 fl L_J fl Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 ;- -. Hoffman: The chamber has a speaker... technology that kind of blew the doors out for the city for a while and they really expanded... Schroers: Okay. Are we down to how much are we willing to spend to insure that they stay in the program? Todd, how are you going to come up, are you looking for a figure? Andrews: I just think we say it's a high priority. I mean to me without eating facilities, then I think we're really taking away a potential important use. Hoffman: I think it's going to get down to fire safety. The fire marshal's going to look, if ' you're going to cook, your stove top, that type of thing, they're going to want exhaust hoods, a tent, all those types of things. We can't get into that so we might have to compromise and list our uses which will specifically be on there. I'm not sure, the senior center did not end up with a stove. Lemme: And they regret it now. t Hoffman: Yeah, because of that reason. Schroers: For what it's worth, our facilities get used a whole bunch and all we've got are microwaves. Hoffman: Your meeting rooms like this? Schroers: Yeah. Hoffman: You can heat food in a microwave. Lash: No, but I think of Scouts. If we have Girl Scouts there and they're making _something, you don't microwave it but usually you bake it or, and you're making fudge or you're doing something that is cooking. Hoffman: It's going to be a tough decision. I'll let you know how it goes. Lash: I guess we'd have to know the cost before I could... Hoffman: Something will probably... Schroers: Okay. Anything else on 40? I think we've kind of covered it. Okay. 41, the fitness room. What would you like to be programmed into this space? What should the ratio 12 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 of machines like Stair Masters, Nordic Track, free weights and open space should be. time I o to Chaska, you can't get on the Stair Masters or ' Andrews: All I can say is every g the Nordic Tracks but you can get on the free weights pretty easily. have enough of Stair Masters here too. You can't , Berg: That's exactly what I've got noted . and Nordic Tracks. seem to the most popu You go down there and they're just Andrews: Stair Masters ways al busy. always b lot of people that are into free weights do those at home. I've never really seen big lines or big crowds around the free weights. ' Ber g : or they belong to a club that has a lot more of them than we could supply. Hoffman: The thing I thought about when I went through this. Remember Shoreview and ' how packed they were in there and how... Lash: They wanted more open space in that Hoffman: They wanted more machines. ' Lash: Oh, they wanted more machines. Because I was trying to figure what you were ' getting at. If you wanted open space in there, I didn't know what it would be or. Meger: Well, you could have some open space maybe for some stretching, warm-up before you got on the equipment. Schroers: Are we going to be consulting an y kind of a professional, you know someone that ? Or are we looking for any a gym or a fitness facility ' knows something about managing guidance there or are we kind of doing this on our own? Hoffman: I think that would be ... a lot of manufacturerana e ut the to Pr front ju tlieo out there. Buy a bunch of machines, plug it into the wall p machine. Depends on how you want to staff it. What kind to place on consult with somebody on a this area. Do you want to hire somebody ? bad idea. , consulting basis? It probably would n e 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 ' Lash: Gosh, wouldn't you think that the companies that make these things would be more than happy to come in. Hoffman: Certainly Nordic Track would be. Lash: For free? Hoffman: Sure. Schroers: Yeah, but they're not going to sit there all day long and coach people. Lash: Oh no, I thought you meant to come and talk to us. Schroe rs: Is that what you're talking about? Hoffman: Yeah. I referenced both issues in there. When you Yin �Stuff, d o Once its up t to buy? And we could ask some trainers, consultants decide what y feasible to put a staff an d running, I don't think for this size of an area, it's financially ' person. Lash: No. Andrews: Wouldn't it be nice if we could convince Nordic Track to kind of use this as a testing for their equipment. You never know. ' name of, he's a Phy Ed instructor at the Middl Berg: I d like to glut you the e School who is very much into conditioning and knows an awful lot had ou h e p at lea � not, he'd least Scott could come in and talk to us if he felt he 8 know who'd to get in touch with. Scott Stalling. Meger: Most of those pieces of equipment too, Nordic Track and Stair Master, they usually provide videos on instruction so if we didn't want to have somebody staffed in there, we could have the video available for viewing. Lash: Need a TV jack in there too. Meger: Somebody is always willing to help you out too. Hoffman: It's a given. it's a given that you'll need one in the lones now. the fitnes J all the just for that purpose. Videos. Nordic Track makes all the ma 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 stair. If you give them an exclusive, they might dump them all right in there. I don't know what Chaska Center got with them... Andrews: Let's invite them over. Hoffman: I've got a small in there. Schroers: What an ideal situation. I mean they are so close that. Andrews: Help relieve their inventory over crowding. Schroers: Service or whatever. Lash: All the latest products for. Berg: Make it a test market. Schroers: They maybe have some kind of something for corporate or business or whatever but. Hoffman: ...machines. We'll get the fitness model ... health club are not the same as the home. Schroers: Okay. What more direction are you looking for in the fitness room Todd? Hoffman: That's it. Schroers: Okay. Aerobics room. Comments. Andrews: Any railings? Meger: Mirrors. Lash: When you said railing, you're talking about the thing for you to put your foot up on? Okay. Berg: How about built in speakers? The step things that they step up on and. Hoffman: Yep. And we have storage for those. 15 j Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Me g er: Mats. ' Hoffman: Nice wood floor. That cushion wood floor. Lash: You know what would be kind of nice, is there going to be a place for.. coats and their boots in the winter? You go in there and you're going to have to put your boots somewhere and put your aerobic shoes on. I' 1 t fl I Hoffman: We talked about two different things. Providing space in each of these rooms for coats and storage. We talked about having permanent coat storage out front. I thought people would be uncomfortable with leaving it out there and so we brought it into the rooms. And in the fitness and aerobics room, there will be a space for coat hooks ... and your personal stuff and then where the lockers are. And then we'll have portable coat racks to be stored in here so when you have a big event you can roll those out into the lobby area. Schroers: Okay. Room 11. Reception desk, office, and we don't have an outline for this. Hoffman: That's this room here. You can see it's shown in one configuration. We did bring these storage room down so it's much more convenient to go back and forth. This would be an open desk. Counter. We talked, there's no need for a security drop door because when this building is open, the desk will be open. And when it closes, the desk will close. What type of things do you see are going to be necessary there? We know we're going to have to staff it full time. 6:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. at night. 5:00 a.m. until ... at night so there's going to be one person there throughout the day. Roeser: You need a cash register and all that stuff, money. Lash: What would people have to get, why would you need a cash register? Roeser: To get change. Andrews: Phone calls. Vending machines. Candy bars. Hoffman: Open gym. Lash: You have to pay to get in for that? Hoffman: Sure. Some programs—have to pay to get in, that's the check point. Manders: How about like, the aerobics room or weight room. Will there be a fee? 16 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 I decision can be made b , Hoffman: It could be an operation y the commission later on. Berg: What I liked about Shoreview was how comfortable it was when you came in. So , whatever we can do to minimize that looking like a reception area. Andrews: Hang up some local artwork. Artists. ' Schroers: Basically what that's going to be is a information and support office. That's the ' thing. The people using the building there are going to, well who do I ask about this. Can I move these tables? Can we stack up these chairs? You know. How much stuff can be stuff in the stove? Whatever. That's probably going to be the biggest need is someone just to answer questions and direct traffic. Hoffman: Do you feel it's going to have to be securable so everything can be locked or is ' that person just for that very reason... Manders: Some kind of intercom system. . I Hoffman: There will be an intercom where you can speak into all the rooms. Lash: There need to be phones ... Could you have the storage area, have a doorway that-would , come into that area so the person could go into the store room and that could be lockable so if they needed to put. Hoffman: It'd be most likely from the office to the storage there will be a door and then probably out into the gymnasium floor. Okay. Schroers: Anything else? Okay. Room 6A and B. Lash: Are ou talkie about hand towels...fabric, those roller things or paper ones? ' Y g Hoffman: Paper. Schroers: I like having the option of both. Electric dryers are fine except when you want to wash your face or wipe off your glasses. , Berg: Or if you're in a rush. ' Schroers: Yeah. Then there are times when I really don't like the electric dryers at all. 1 17 �p 1 L.l Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 i Lash: How about the hand towels Larry. Do you have trouble with kids put hand towels in the toilets and stuff? Schroers: Absolutely. And they love to build fires with them also. I mean it is just, it kind of depends on how attractive you make them also. I don't see in this facility, in the way it's going to be used that, it just doesn't, I dori't get the feeling that that's going to be a place that kids are going to target for mischief. Lash: Not because they won't target it for mischief. Berg: I wouldn't agree with that either. If it's there, it's a target. Somebody will but. Lash: But I think for the convenience factor too, I think it makes... Schroers: If you're in the gym and you're all, you go in there and you're all sweaty and you've got sweat running in your eyes, I mean the hand dryer's not going to do you much good. Hoffman: ...they make it recessed so they're flush with the wall. You know the waste receptacle and the towels where you have to bring them out so if you ever think you're going to want to take them away. Lash: Well you can just not stock them. If it's really a problem. I think baby changing stations would be real nice in the men's room. Hoffman: They're added. Lash: You don't have to put them in the ladies. Berg: Is there anything they can use for partitions that can't be carved? r Lash: Chicken wire. Semi private. Hoffman: My comment was, whatever you do out here, what you make it out of, make sure the fasteners are good. You see so many restrooms where they're just hanging from the wall. It looks kind of beat. Andrews: Right. Metal with good fasteners. I Hoffman: Good. That janitor's closet, that's got to be... ' is J Park and R ec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Schroers: I know one problem with all janitor's closets is that they're too small. Hoffman: I think this has got a 3 foot door on it so it's a big door. , Berg: Is this where they'd be storing the... Schroers: For vacuum cleaners, floor scrubbers, mops and buckets and all that. Andrews: It's going to have to be wide enough to get those brooms through. , Schroers: Okay, Room 5A. Storage. Hoffman: Is that okay...? Berg: Yeah. Schroers: 5B, gym storage. Hoffman: In that block next to the gym. ' Schroers: I think this space will be inadequate. That seems f seem to be a priority nd all� • I mean storage space for a cost per square foot lust does They'd rather haul it to another building someplace. Lash: How tall is the ceiling in there? Is it just a regular 8 foot or is it taller? Taller? Hoffman: Taller, yeah. Lash: Like way taller or just a little taller? People never utilize this space at the top. If you could figure out some way of accessing that. Sc hroers: hroers: Have y ou ever been in a well lit storage room? You turn on one little light and ' you can never see what it is that you're looking for. Hoffman. Come and visit our's. I'll take you to all of them. Half of them are offices. • Lash: Go to the school district, they're classrooms. I Schroers: I think you want to mix the lockers. You should have some that are stacked half and half and some full length. I 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Manders: The full length ones are nice to have. Schroers: The full length ones are the nicest but they don't, you know if you go with all full length one then you can't accommodate as many people. If you come dressed to play basketball and you just brought your bag along, a half locker is fine. But if you stop after work and you're in business clothes of whatever, a full locker is nice. Lash: What, is there some way to secure these? Manders: Bring your own lock. Schroers: Or rent one from the city. Lash: Is that something that we'd want to provide? Schroers: Absolutely. Hoffman: ...we have towel storage. Meger: Who does the towels then? Send them out. Hoffman: Towel service. Lash: Well, what would you need towels for? There's no showers is there? Berg: Yeah. Lash: Oh, there's showers there? Andrews: Read on Jan. t Schroers: I think the ceramic tile and removal matting is standard. I've seen it every place that I've been and I like the matting versus the bare floor. y Lash: What are y ou talking about? I don't even know what that is, removable matting. r Schroers: It's that thick stuff that you walk on instead of the floor when you're barefoot. s on staff and the Hoffman. There's some health club advocate Y want to carpet the lockers. 20 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Berg: I'd like to see a scale in each locker room. Schroers: Digital. Digital read out. Berg: Only visible to the person standing there. Lash: And only go up to a certain number. Berg: Right, there you go. Hoffman: Does anyone have any feelings for how many lockers need to be available? Lash: How many adult games can go on at the same time? Two? Hoffman: Two or four. Meger: Plus you could have an aerobics class. Lash: Okay, how many guys are on each team? Hoffman: It depends on what court you're playing. Lash: Well what would be the most? Meger: Volleyball. Lash: So how many on a team, 9? Ruegemer: ...90% of the people attending these types of activities are dressed and ready to go by the time they get there and they probably won't be using the facilities. Hoffman: We're thinking 35. Andrews: That sounds good. Schroers: Is there also a place for a coat hanger? Or I mean a coat rack. Hoffman: A coat rack will be available and then the full length mirrors as you walk out. There will be coat hangers there. This shows too many lockers right now and they'll be pulled up and there will be a full length mirror as you walk out. Okay ... too many, too few? 21 I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Berg: I wrote down 6 but I think probably 4 is appropriate. Lash: It depends on how big the space is. Hoffman: We might have to expand pand rt to put 6 in. t Berg: 4 is perfect. Hoffman: No family lockers in this program Is this going to haunt us? Andrews: Yes it will. Berg: Based on Shoreview, it's going to come back real quick. Lash: But that's a whole different situation because that's the pool. I don't really see where a kid would have to come and do major changing here. Manders: You're going to have this here whole entertainment area that you're probably going to have to ... environment there. Berg: You don't change for that though. Roeser: The family locker rooms are basically for people who go swimming as a group ' aren't they? I mean you don't have families coming in, not everybody's, families don't come in together to play volleyball. Meger: And if they do, they'd probably be dressed. Lash: I mean when kids are going to be coming here to play, they're going to be coming ready to play. I would say 99% of them will be coming in. They may just pull off their sweats. L� Roeser: We'll wing that. Hoffman: The other ...is the guardian. The person of an opposite sex is a guardian of a person. Some sort of visibility. Andrews: If you're stuck, you could go into the bathroom. Go into the stall and change up and get out of there. 22 Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Park and Rec Comma 8 Berg: Maybe you want to think of that when you're staffing the entry area too because there female there that could help in that kind of situation that could might be somebody, a male or j be trusted too. Andrews: ...creating a real small, private changing room for that situation. You're only We have a 6 x 6 cubby hole for going to have a very rare occasional need for that. could that. Hoffman: I don't think we'd ever want to do that, what Fred was thinking about it. Sending is where they ran into it where they had a staff person down... Canterbury Downs the example no restrooms for two people to go in the opposite sex that needed to go in so they We'll talk to the manufactured ... made a unisex private bathroom. Something to think about. These could be private restrooms but right now architects about it. See if they ... trends. they're so large that doing that would not fully utilize your space. Where you lock the doors and go in. Then you've got the gym. sPP C � be? � Is 0� from s way e or d . Lash: Can you show us where the bleacher seats a � f there? So that's just like a major game that Berg: Across. Lash: Okay, so it's just provided for the one gym. Berg: Center court of Chanhassen. Schroers: The gym is the school's, it's not oar's. r Hoffman: During the evening this will all come down and then if you play tournaments, to have about the best we can do. you're going to have seating here and you're going ...that's The school doesn't need it for then s. We want to put it in our program. that is the pits Lash: That is, I'm telling you though. I go to a lot of basketball games and it is. Even if we have folding sitting on the floor. For an hour and a half, or whatever I know Chan they used to, you could go and get a folding chair and bring it in and ' chairs. at put it against the wall. At least you're not sitting on the floor the whole time. Andrews: It seems like a lot of seating to me. Roeser: I was wondering if that's a lot. 23 1 I 1 1 1 1 1 1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Andrews: If you figure, the intent here is interested family members. If you had 10 kids on a team that's, I don't know. Hoffman: They were coming down originally and one of the thoughts is you can push these in and have three rows out. Or you could pull them out. If you had, what would you call it. An auditorium type events where you set up the focal point here. You pulled out these seatings and then you did auditorium seating up to the front. That would make a pretty decent layout for that just one type of use. But again, when you have tournaments going on, you're going to have seating here for this court So you're probably going to play your major games up here but then this is going to play second fiddle right here. Lash: I could see for, and I don't know what's in the new elementary school plan for this kind of thing but I know at Chanhassen Elementary and some of the other schools, there's really a lack of space where you can have a program for more than one grade level at a time and be able to seat all the parents. Andrews: Like a music program. Lash: Yeah, that kind of thing. We really are lacking that at Chan Elementary and there's no way that they can accommodate that now. So if this could be used for things like that I could see the 200 seating. It's just for basketball it seems like a lot. Hoffman: This shows 7 rows so you go 30 wide on 7 rows. You've got 210. Roeser: Well I'm sure you're going to get at least that much. That's 80 -90 feet long at least. Hoffman: So go 5 rows. Andrews: I think probably if you're looking at cost, it's going to be $200.00 difference. Why worry about it. Hoffman: We talked of, this shows it going all the way out to the end...so we have more space on the sidelines. Andrews: Any accommodation for spot lighting or. Hoffman: Lights. Spot lighting. We did not talk about. Roeser: Any overhead lighting that you could, say if you had a concert or the chorus were singing, sitting in front of that seating. It seems to me that there should be some kind of 24 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 lighting that you could throw down on whatever you're doing there. At least the plugs and the things that you need to go in with some, you know ... and things like Lash: Also mic, again mic jacks. Hoffman: Mic jacks are in there. You try to stay away from a lot of things in the floor. They end up being a problem so we're bringing that in from the. Roeser: How high is the ceiling of the gym though? Hoffman: ...high enough. Schroers: Basically we're saying here that we like that it holds 200 seats for the bleachers. And the 6 fully automated baskets? Andrews: Yes. Schroers: Very much so, yes? Berg: I was going to say, is that all you can put in there? Andrews: That's all you can do. Manders: Is that a wall then there, and the basket's in the middle of those two? Hoffman: Portable wall. Manders: Oh they're just hanging down from the ceiling. Hoffman: Fully automatic. Andrews: Are there supposed to be automatic both recline as well as adjustable height for the youth versus adult? Ruegemer: The basket? Yes, they will be electrically. You can adjust the height. Berg: Good question. That's real important. Schroers: Okay. Floor hardware for volleyball and tennis standards. 25 e 1 t L Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Roeser: Tennis is not going to be a big one. Playing tennis on a wood floor is bad news. It limits. Then only a few people can do this. I don't... Andrews: The volleyball a definite must. Schroers: Permanent floor striping is an issue. Which sports are essential? How comprehensive do we want to be without cluttering? Andrews: I think you need the floor striping for those two sports. Lash: Is there something else that we're not thinking of? Hoffman: ...the school gym, they probably have badminton, floor hockey. Potentially we thought we could incorporate that into basketball. Shuffleboard... tennis. Ruegemer: Yeah, we could eliminate those. Hoffman: Except the major ones. If you do anything else, tape it. Roeser: Go with the major ones and see what kind of demand you get. Hoffman: Okay. Schroers: Okay. What did we miss in the program? Hoffman: Scoreboard. Lash: The what? What was that? Andrews: Scoreboards. Hoffman: We're talking about portable. You just...We need four portable scoreboards. You could put one here and you could probably put it in their gym ...and then you have to run them from a central point. We have scores out there when we have the leagues and these portable ones come, they're fine. What do they cost, $800.00 a piece? Ruegemer: Yeah. Manders: Another thing I would mention is clocks in these other rooms so that there's... 26 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - Decembe r 14 , 1993 1 Hoffman: Water fountains are here. Ruegemer: At the entrance of the gym. Lash: That's it? Roeser: Yeah, you don't want them in the gym. Hoffman: Yeah we talked about putting them in the interior of the gym. You don't want them on the floor. So going into the gym here and at the entrance so these People can come out. Andrews: Any chance you can have drop curtains going the other direction too for volleyball? Like at Chaska they don ' t do that and man it's just really bad news. Hoffman: ...will be just purchasing. Schroers: Okay, anything else indoor? Lash: That just doesn't, I'm sorry but that just doesn't sound like enough drinking fountains to me. Andrews: For Chaska they have one drinking fountain area serving the two gyms. It's just like that really. It's fine. ys Lash: Okay. Berg: A lot of them bring their own water stuff anyway. Water bottles or whatever. Lash: When kids are playing, if there's four games going on at the same time and then everybody has half time at the same time. Andrews: That's plenty. Schro y ers: Okay, let's move to the exterior program. What design and surfacing should be utilized in the construction of the hockey rinks to accommodate both winter and summer skating.] Lash: Are you talking about Rollerblading? 27 i Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Hoffman: Yep. In line skating. Pretty fired up about this... Andrews: What'd you find out? Hoffman: We need to have, they build it for speed skating—and within 2 years it's going to be an in line skating facility with ice on the side. Schroers: So what do they use for, what are they going to, the ice is not going to be in the same area? Hoffman: The ice will be there about 5 months out of the year and they'll skate... Schroers: Okay, then what surface are they putting the ice. Hoffman: Poured concrete. Lash: Okay, so can we do that? Ruegemer: Sure. Hoffman: It's just an expense deal. We're going to be innovative in this. I sat with about 35 Park and Recreation Directors today at this meeting up there. We talked a lot about, people are, they're just taking normal hockey rinks and blacktopping them. There's not very many surprisingly around and what the original intent was for getting a smooth and even ice surface and getting it earlier and having it stay longer because when you don't have the grass underneath it, it doesn't break up. And then nobody ever thought about in line skating. Then all of a sudden that became fashionable. One concept is just to put a big sheet of concrete out there and do the light standards probably on the exterior ... with permanent boards of some type. On this slab, probably have the interior area. Some lights as well, light standards. You have icing here obviously in the winter. Then you have in line skating and hockey, in line hockey in here in the summer but then you also can utilize the exterior for in line skating as more of a recreational. Andrews: I like that. Hoffman: Recreational type. Then you block these areas so ou don't et skating ...It's going Y g g 8 g to be expensive. HGA is going to snub their nose at us. They're going to want to put blacktop in. But concrete, brushed light green finish on concrete is really the way to go. Maintenance wise we're really trying to find a new, a nice board to put up here. There should be some new materials out there. If you can stay away from wood, from a 28 _ Park and Rec Commission Meeting December 14, 1993 maintenance rotting. They weather. But we don't know what that is yet. e Andrews: How about that poly propylene stuff they make P ark benches out of? Hoffman: Possibility. Because you use the glass, the poly... Roeser: Is permanent the route to go on the boards and everything? Hoffman: For summer hockey, sure. You go ... where you tak e them down but then you don't have the boards for hockey. Lash: What do you mean summer hockey? Andrews: In line hockey. That's getting big. Hoffman: So that's the current exploration. I think se , it without lights ° the ••• some comments on what we do about the lights but a y ou can see tennis courts and ... how are we going to operate without them. have to, you know an option may be Phasing it. Doing it kind of in phases in I would Schroers: We y for something substandard. I mean order to get what you want rather than settling halt and I would think that you would really want � phases rather than settling for something less than we prefer to do something like th P want. Hoffman: Yeah, they're going to say concrete's twice as expensive or three times as expensive but it will last 15 years... to flood a dark surface, I would think you're going to get ice a Andrews: Plus when you try surface. lot faster with concrete and longer. And it is a much better skating Hoffman: Okay. We'll continue to go for that. And the play areas. The problem is we ate don't have the exterior program... As you recall they separate go ? Right now it's located the... older children. Do you have an idea where you want building which will be located on this site. on the east end of the site. Not near the central And some general comments, guidance in that regard. Lash: The District is providing one play area. That's directly ousl be for older c l right? s And we' providing one that's further east. So theirs will obviously our's would have to be for the younger. 29 1 i � F� Commission Meeting 3 :. Park and Rec Co g - December 14, 199 Hoffman: Where would you provide. What they're saying is, you can provide them both right in the same general area but separate them. Their's will not be for that 3 to 5 age. So that should be the first phase if you're going to. Really what we'll be doing is allowing space for it because we're not buying it with the initial program... would want them in fain close Meger: So I would thuilc you o Y proximity so that if you're a P parent and you have one child on one playground and one on another, that you can see both of them. Lash: And if it's more centrally located, if the one the District's providing is behind their building. If our's was more centrally located, say, I think there are four fields? So if it was more between the two middle ones. Because when it's smaller children, you'd be more comfortable with them staying as close as possible to where.you're watching them play. So to have it way at one end would be too far for some people to send their little ones. Hoffman: There's no hope for having supervision at both sites at once. Lash: No, but if you're, if you're there, you're probably watching one kid play and then if it's an older one, you probably wouldn't be as concerned with watching but a smaller one, you'd want to be able to see more. Hoffman: Got it. Fred, do you want to update us on what you know about money? Berg: Yeah. I guess maybe this should be off the record a little bit. I'm not sure that the liberty that I. (The tape recorder was turned off at this point.) ESTABLISHMENT OF FIELD SCHEDULING POLICY REGARDING ORDER OF PRIORITY. p Jerry Ruegemer Rue resented the staff report on this item. Lash: When you're talking about local youth organizations, is that like CAA and scouting? Ruegemer: Correct. Lash: Would that be for these activities too? Or not. Ruegemer: What kind of my, really the driving force behind this kind of had to do with 1 30 Ll I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 really the baseball leagues and some of the youth groups. As far as South Tonka Little League and CAA's baseball program. Look at the Lake Ann #2 scen b out them a lot more they want to convert that over. I think we just need to start her� lot of Chanhassen now. As far as, because South Tonka by rights, y know we residents that play up there. Maybe not as many yes me typ of Association bt distribution hank d for need to take a look at that too. You know they got so bases, I think they should have a right to play on our fa�e facility ssoc y' t o.paying citizens as well as the majority of people that might Lash: I think on a proportional basis, it would be fair. Ruegemer: I think really what staff would like to have is maybe some guidance. It'd be just sort of brainstorm. If you have ideas already written down. After reviewing just some of the information that I provided as far as from districts, maybe just read �e of ugh a that. Maybe it sparks a couple ideas. That may be my system m developing g re Andrews: I think the first thing you've got to do is define what's yo t At t p t d o w e go from youth to adult, because there will be somebody ouch or in the case where youth is get their group in. You know they're young enough to be y ther a disadvantage or too old to be youth and they ought to be n he T 3 hoof District- , strict.I tthink distribution s the way to do it. There are many, we live i nka School have many situations where we have a team that's entirely m ta�nly t ease times when we District using Minnetonka park facilities but yet we would, would need to use Chanhassen facilities and we're not part of the CAA. Ruegemer: I think your situation too Jim is kind of that do play Tonka United a be e as well. There's a lot, some of your neighbors that live up in your development whatever. Andrews: They virtually all do. Ruegemer: Yeah, because they're Chanhassen residents, they still need a place to practice and. that's right. Andrews: And I ... it's been we been treated second � line' I don't dent that are participating in There also are teams that are only partially Chanhassen Tonka Park and Rec programs that need practice space t° much I ware they called o do what this, when you look at a team, where are they from. Now so school district are they but how many of them are Chanhassen people and then use that, because that's really, that's who's paying the bill are the Chanhassen resident. I think that 31 f t Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 has to be. Lash: I agree it's where they're from and I think that's been the outlook all along. At least that's the way I felt but when, if you're talking about scheduling a practice as opposed to a game, I guess I don't have a problem with some of the fields for practice. I think what gets in demand is Field #2 at Lake Ann and if there are kids from Chanhassen in CAA or South Tonka or wherever they're from and they're not able to play their games on the best field because another team is using that field for practice, when you can use other fields for practice. I guess I feel like if there's a shortage, the best field, which I think is #2, isn't it? Ruegemer: Correct. Lash: Okay. That should be more for the games and if you're running into a conflict. Andrews: Yeah, games should take precedence over practices. There are teams that I think over practice. We've got teams that are practicing 4-5 nights a week. I guess I'd rather see that team be forced to practice one less night and offer another team a chance just to play, so I agree with Jan on that. Meger: Do you build in some timeframes too as well as, for instance maybe I'm McGlynn Bakery and I'm in Chanhassen and I'm going to call 3 months ahead because I want to have this activity on this field and then one month before there's a youth group from Chanhassen. that wants to use that same field. So do you have to consider. Ruegemer: Typically in that case, a lot of that's on the weekends where a lot of the existing fields are available. During the week we really don't have any picnics or types of, at times we do but we do have our leagues and then there are Little League programs and girls softball programs and that going on so... Lash: But you still do run into the problem with South Tonka. I agree that Jim's team maybe is all kids from Chanhassen and then there are teams, a couple of teams that maybe half of the kids are from Chanhassen but then there's a bunch of teams where maybe none of the kids are from Chanhassen. So you, I don't understand how you'd even be able to figure that out myself. Ruegemer: Right. Andrews: By roster. I Ruegemer: Yeah, some type of a, like Jim said. Maybe, I don't want to get in the business 32 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 of checking kid's ID or something. That's really not where we're at but I believe that we do need to provide some type of facility in that case. Andrews: It's a real, fore think you've heard me talk before how frustrating it is. I mean we've been told, or heard people say well, if you want to use the Chanhassen facilities, and work you go talk to CAA. CAA tells you, well as long as you're in Tonka, g P charge with them. So there is a lot of this passing the buck back and forth Of who's really y unPortant. and who should get priority and I think getting this kind of a priority list And I think it should be, who are the kids. Or who are the people. Now who are the e is or where the team is, where their league is. I mean the point is, our duty citizens of Chanhassen. It doesn't matter if those citizens of Chanhassen happen to choose to Minnetonka Park and Rec league. They have paid the taxes that have provided p lay in the Now a team that only these facilities for the youth and that who sho only h st fi p Chanhassen residents on it, to me happens to be called a Chanhassen team that does not deserve priority over somebody that's all a Minnetonka team that has 20 Chanhassen residents. Roeser: Is it a common thing that there are teams with 2 Chanhassen residents on it playing in these leagues?' Andrews: Yep. Because it happens in Tonka. I know it works both ways. Lash: Kids get ... teams? Andrews: Oh sure. Yeah, we got kids on soccer teams that are coming from all over the place. Lash: In CAA? Andrews: In Tonka. And I'm sure CAA is the same thing. Roeser: Well why do they do that? I i mean what' t be in e tint? auwhy would yo �e league in the South Tonka League, if i going t kids from Chanhassen or anywhere else and put them in these leagues. Andrews: That's school district lines is a lot of it. Hoffman: Where you identify, Victoria comes this way and they go to Chaska. on what their line is and where their church is. 33 i a 1 It depends I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14,J993 Roeser: But Victoria of course is Chaska School District. Andrews: But like for Tonka, most of the sport teams are kind of school affiliated. I mean that's who the kids know. Lash: Didn't South Tonka change their thing last year or whatever, and they grandfathered in some kids but that's about to end and in the end wouldn't that mean fewer kids from Chanhassen playing on it? Andrews: No. Ruegemer: That was kind of...type of thing. What that is, the boundaries now are realigned. The ... and the East Tonka Baseball Association. It all has to do with population. East Tonka now, they just sanctioned now another charter so now they just expanded their whole ... I guess their whole broad league now. Now South Tonka does not have to rearrange their boundaries now so we're at the same really point where we were a year ago. Now their, South Tonka's line now goes all the way down to Pioneer Trail. Andrews: It's getting more and more confusing. Ruegemer: It is. It is. And that's why it is important to get this type of a policy. Lash: I guess what I was trying to say Jim, and we're maybe crossing here. If you have a couple of teams on South Tonka that are all Chanhassen residents, yes. I think that they should have as much right to a field as any of the CAA teams that have Chanhassen kids on it. But then if you've got half of the teams or more who have no Chanhassen kids, are you going to be able to say, well your team and your team and your team, you can come and play r over here but the rest of you guys, you can't come and play on these fields because none of you live in Chanhassen? r Andrews: That's what we're saying, yeah. Lash: But you're saying that? Andrews: You have to, yeah. Lash: Well I'm thinking that but I didn't figure you'd be thinking that. Andrews: Well you have to draw a way to prioritize and that's the way to do it. I mean how 34 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 else can you do it. I Roeser: The other way you could do it is to keep the kids in Chanhassen playing in Chanhassen leagues and the kids in Minnetonka playing in Minnetonka leagues. Andrews: That ain't gonna fly... Roeser: Some kind of decision's got to be made. Andrews: School di strict lines cross. I mean that's how it's set up. Lash: The kids who live up by Pleasant View are going to want to play with their friends from school. Berg: Does the bias work the other way too? Does Minnetonka have a hard time letting kids who live in Chanhassen who go to school in Minnetonka, do they have a problem with those kids playing in Minnetonka? Andrew: No. They are actively accepting peop le. The Y 'll take any, all you want. Schroers: I have friends that take their kids to Minnetonka to play for several reasons. It's . I closer. There's more programs to choose from and they feel that they have better competition and a number of things. So I think there's why to get to people haul then �dsanes and a lot of it is convenience. Where they have to drive in order Andrews: It makes it tough with the two school districts because that seems to be the pull, at least with the younger ages. But I think we've got to, like Jan said and I agree exactly with what you said. There's no other fair to do it other than y could re t. our re be That's our first priority. I don't know of any other Y Y ou you know you've got some Tonka park and rec teams that may come over here and say g eez, y one team over here. They're in Chanhassen practicing. Why can't we? Well, the reason why is this is a Chanhassen team. That's the best answer you can give them. Berg: I've got no problem with that. Lash: I don't either. Would you be able to figure that out Jerry? Ruegemer: I could start kicking around some type of a percentage... ,© 35 1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting = December 14 1993 Andrews: For soccer it's easy because the people that are doing the Minnetonka Park and Rec leagues live in Chanhassen. Ruegemer: Dave Rouse. Andrews: Dave Rouse, yeah. Lash: Well I don't have, with your 1, 2, 3, 4, I don't have a problem with your suggested way of computing who gets first dibs with that example. Does somebody else have a problem with that? Roeser: You've got park and rec activities and then local youth organizations. Is that Chan Athletic Association? Ruegemer: Local youth organizations would be CAA, South Tonka, Soccer Association, Girls Softball. A lot of that criteria too has to go with past use. Are people really using their space to the maximum or are they just kind of blocking out space and not using it. A lot of those components are going to be used as well ... determining future use. Andrews: The pressure's just building incredibly for s _ g Y ace. Where we had to chase for P soccer games this fall was just absolutely crazy. Schroers: Do you need any more direction on that? Ruegemer: No. Schroers: You got what you need? Ruegemer: If anybody el h g se as any comments or any questions, you can call... ESTABLISHMENT OF TIME LINE: UPDATE OF RECREATION SECTION OF COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. Schroers: I'm going to let the rest of you comment on that. Basically they're asking for a second meeting per month in order to get the comprehensive plan updated. Lash: I would move that we extend our schedule to meet twice a month until we accomplish the comprehensive plan update. Schroers: Is there a second? 36 I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Meger: I'd second it. Better to do it now before summer. Andrews: Discussion. Would this be after the, or meeting the second Tuesday in January then or starting in February then? Hoffman: It'd be in January. Andrews: Okay. . Y Hoffman: Unless you want to start in February. Andrews: No, I support the sooner the better. Lash moved, Meger seconded to amend the Par and Romp ac complish the Comprehensive Plan schedule to include a second meeting each month Update. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Hoffman: ...that's the other thing we need to address at some point..-who wants to go onto the Tree Board. The Tree Board will turn into the Environmental Commission that would provide the Tree Board, the Recycling Committee... Swamp committee... Manders: At that first meeting, are you going to have some dates in terms of time lines so for scheduling purposes? Meeting dates. Hoffman: Meeting dates are the fourth Tuesday. Schroers: I guess I have a question there. Do I give up my...give up this commission spot? Do they go kind of hand in hand? Hoffman: ...the position that the Tree Board is represented from the Park Commission... ADOPT 1994 PICNIC FEE SCHEDULE. Jerry Ruegemer presented the staff report on this item. Manders: What has been your experience in terms of groups that have signed up? Is it mostly residents or is it outside? Ruegemer: Surprisingly it's probably 60 -65% are non - residents. The businesses coming in Victoria, from V , Chaska. 37 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 Lash: So what kind of people were complaining about. Ruegemer: ..for family amply reunions. That type of thug. Birthday parties. Maybe some weddings. _ Andrews: Let's drop the fixed number and try to emphasize it but not mandate it. Lash: Otherwise people are going to start lying anyway. Ruegemer: Well, if you drop it it's kind of a double edge sword. You're going to be losing revenue if you do that. If you drop that... I Lash: Well what if it's a business? Ruegemer: If it's a business located in Chanhassen, I give them the resident rate. Lash: What if we have a commercial rate, a business rate, resident and then non - resident and then we just have a resident rate and then that would just be a flat rate. Has anybody ever called that's not a resident and wants to have a private parry here? Ruegemer: Oh sure. You bet, and they'd pay the non - resident fee. People are generally honest about that. Schroers: So the problem is, that you're saying that citizens get upset when they want to reserve it for a date and it's already taken by someone who doesn't live in the city? Lash: No. If they don't have 50% of their group, they have to pay more. What if it's just a resident who books it, they get a resident rate. If it's for their group. If it's a non - resident calling to book it for a non - resident group, then they don't get the resident rate. Hoffman: I think some of it that we talked about as well, that 50%, we need to get away from that ... calling a resident to reserve it. I'm a Victoria person and I'd say I want that resident rate. I call my friend up, they reserve the thing for my party... Lash: You have a friend who lives in Chanhassen? Hoffman: A couple... Lash: But how do you ever know? 38 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 -11 f Ruegemer: ...You know I'm not out there every weekend checking ID's. Hoffman: I live in the city. I pay taxes. I deserve to use that facility... Schroers: I mean that does seem reasonable. If you are going to have a family reunion, I mean chances are these days that your family isn't going to live in Chanhassen and you're going to have to pay an out of town rate, I don't think that's fair. Hoffman: Okay. Lash: So the person who books it. If they're a resident, they get a resident rate for the group. What we're doing is just dropping the 50% condition right? Andrews: For personal use. Other than business use. Ruegemer: Make that specific too. Lash: I would be more inclined to want to give a company that's a local company, I'd rather have a commercial rate and have it be for a business. A resident business and a non - resident business and stick it to the businesses and not the residents as much. Manders: What kind of dollars are we potentially talking between somebody booking a resident instead of being a non - resident? Andrews: $53.00. Manders: But I mean, I'm talking just dollars if somebody switched. Schroers: We haven't had the shelter going for an entire season either. Ruegemer: The shelter's been a money maker. I look in that, really the majority of the people renting that facility have been non - residents. We're looking at $185.00 a crack. Schroers: Yeah but you know, just to make it simple, a resident books it, they get a resident rate. A non - resident books it, they get a non- resident rate. A resident business books it, they get a resident commercial rate. A non - resident business books it, they get a non - resident rate. Andrews: I'll second that motion. Lash: We don't have a commercial rate though. Is that the same as the resident? A I 39 1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting December 14,> 1993 commercial rate the same as any other rate? Andrews: We've got a commercial rate and a resident rate. Lash: We don't now. We just have a flat rate for resident and non - resident. Ruegemer: We could draft some numbers and then come back in January. Schroers: Okay. And then as far as the rest of the fee structure is concerned, I move to accept the structure as it was set up in '93. Is there a second? Berg: Second. Schroers moved, Berg seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to adopt the fee structure from 1993 for the 1994 Picnic Reservation Fees. All voted in favor and the notion carried. Hoffman: Just a clarification. The rates will stay the same. Just the titling is going to change. Lash: Unless we come up with a commercial rate... PROGRAM REPORTS: FEBRUARY FESTIVAL TEAM. Schroers: He's asking for volunteers. Who says yes? Roeser: I'll do something. Berg: I'll do something, sure. Hoffman: We've got them all but... Schroers: Todd, buzz us through these in a hurry would you? FEBRUARY FESTIVAL FIREWORKS CONTRACT. Hoffman: Coming back to you next week. 0 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 TREE LIGHTING EVALUATION. Hoffman: Another ... The tree is still alive. Berg: That District High School choir consisted of 3 people though. WINTER PROGRAM UPDATE. Hoffman: The winter program update is for your information. Any response to that? Lash: Super. Andrews: Great. Keep .it up. I PROPOSED REAL ESTATE PURCHASE AGREEMENT: DAVID STOCKDALE AND ANGA MCBRYDE STOCKDALE, 7210 GALPIN BOULEVARD, EXCELSIOR, MN. Hoffman: You have the Stockdale letter, the response in your hands. Andrews: In other words, it ain't over til it's over. Hoffman: Yeah. All we're doing now is... CLOSING OF POWER HILL PARK SLIDING HILL. little memo to o along with it. If you didn't read it, I can explain Hoffman: That one had a g g it briefly. We seeded the hill and they have to put erosion control in there. So you've got all that ground opened up. Then we've got erosion control which is going to freeze into the ground. If people want to slide on it, that's a real hazard. So the city...A lot of people are upset about it. Chris Hones who was here this evening, in that area. Did not receive a call directly from him but I received a ton of phone calls. It's one of those unfortunate scenarios... Schroers: Is this just for the season? Hoffman: Yep. Next year we'll establish the seed and we'll be ready to go. IB Berg: I think what you did is right. 41 iA Park and Rec Commission Meeting - December 14, 1993 RETIREMENT OF LARRY SCHROERS FROM THE PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION -7 YEARS OF SERVICE, RECIPIENT OF A CHANHASSEN MAPLE LEAF AWARD. Hoffman: Last night Larry Schroers, our Chairman for the past 3 years and a Park Commissioner since '87, received from Mayor Chmiel the Maple Leaf Award. He packed the house. It was standing room only. Schroers: Not for that part of the agenda. Hoffman: He received a nice plaque signed by all the members of the Council:..Good standing member for the past 6 years, you get ...Great job Larry. Appreciate all your work. Schroers: The plaque is real nice. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET: Todd Hoffman gave a brief presentation of the Administrative Packet. Lash moved, Roeser seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim 42 PUBLIC SAFETY COMMISSION MEETING JANUARY 13. 1994 PRESENT: Don Chmiel, Brian Beniek, Eldon Berkland, Dave Dummer, Dave Johnson, Bill Bernhjelm ' STAFF PRESENT: Scott Harr, Public Safety Director Captain Ron Holt, CCSO Steve Winter, CSO t Sheila Losby, CSO Greg Hayes, CSO ' Outgoing Commissioner Brian Beniek opened the meeting at 7 p.m. The first order of g g business was the nomination of a 1994 PSC chairperson and co- chairperson. Brian Beniek ' nominated Dave Johnson Chairperson, Eldon Berkland Co- Chair. All voted in favor and the motion passed. ' Commissioner Berkland motioned, Commissioner Beniek seconded, to approve the minutes as written. All voted in favor and the motion passed. ' VISITOR PRESENTATION: Director Harr introduced part-time Community Service Officer Sheila Losby, and Greg Hayes ' as the volunteer reserve Community Service Officer. ' FIRE DEPARTMENT: Commissioner Beniek reported the reappointment of Dale Gregory, Duane Auseth and himself as Fire Captains. Chief Jim McMahon was re- elected for another 2 year term, with the City Council having so approved. ' CARVER COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: Captain Holt was introduced as the representative of the Sheriff's Department that will be the ' liaison with the Public Safety Commission. Captain Ron Holt announced that because of shift bidding, he and Sergeant Wittsack will be working with the 7 Chanhassen deputies. PUBLIC SAFETY - OLD BUSINESS Mayor Chmiel reported the Council will interview the 3 Public Safety Commission applicants on January 31, 1994. Director Harr asked the Commission if they would like to address the issue of limitations be Page 2 ' placed on future liquor establishments in the City. Mayor Chmiel expressed his approval and discussion followed. It was suggested to gather information from other communities ' concerning liquor licensing, and put this item on the April PSC agenda. Director Harr reported on the $15,000.00 that was allotted in 1994 for traffic enforcement in ' Chanhassen. With the recent Governor's cuts, there is the question whether the money will be available. Mayor Chmiel commended the Sheriff's Department for their ongoing traffic ' enforcement based on the recent statistics their reports. Director Harr expressed a desire to support Councilmember Wing's commitment to this program. Director updated u dated the Commission on the hunting/shooting boundary meeting held in ' December. Discussion followed, and Director Harr will have the revised map at the February meeting for Commission approval. ' PUBLIC SAFETY - NEW BUSINESS , The Sheriff's Department will sponsor a meeting on January 25 to include the deputies, fire department, public safety personnel, and Ridgeview ambulance. Director Harr commended ' the Sheriff's Department for this cooperative effort in having this meeting to discuss policing issues. Director Harr inquired of the Commission establishing goals and objectives for 1994 and possibly for the next 5 - 10 years. Discussion followed. Commissioner Johnson suggested the Commissioners bring suggestions to the March meeting concerning the police contract, ' crime prevention, emergency management, etc. The February meeting will be held at the Landscape Arboretum and further details will ' follow. Director Harr discussed the need for positive recognition of public safety contributions in the ' community. The possibility of the Public Safety Commission recognizing an individual or group during the year was addressed, and will be incorporated with the future goals and objectives discussion. Discussion was held concerning the memo from Dave Hempel, Assistant City Engineer, , regarding the stop sign placement at West 76th Street and Great Plains Blvd. The Commission approved the recommendation of the Engineering Department. Commissioner Beniek motioned, Commissioner Bernhjelm seconded, to adjourn the meeting. , All voted in favor and the motion passed.