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11f Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MEETING FEBRUARY 12, 2001 Mayor Jansen called the work session to order at 5:40 p.m. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councilman Peterson, Councihnan Labatt, Councilman Kroskin, and Councilman Ayotte STAFF PRESENT: Scott Botcher, Todd Gerhardt, Bob Generous, Kate Aanenson, Todd Hoffman, Teresa Burgess, and Andrea Poehler, City Attorney LIVABLE COMMUNITIES ACT PRESENTATION BY KATE AANENSON, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR. Kate Aanenson and Bob Generous gave a power point presentation to the City Council on the Livable Com~nunities Act. Why LCA was established. What is the LCA? Definition of Life Cycle and Affordable Housing. Why does Chanhassen participate in the LCA? What are the City's LCA goals? How were the goals set? A graph showing the number of different residential building permits issued sine 1974. How are the goals enforCed? What has the City done to meet the goals? Financial assistance available fi'om different resources to achieve the LCA goals. What has the City done to meet goals? How does the LCA tie into the City's Comprehensive Plan? A chart showing the affordable units in specific projects, owner occupied versus rental. Where Chanhassen is today in relation to it's LCA goals. What the LCA does not do. Then finally the implications of requiring all medium and high density housil~g in the city to 30% affordable. Mayor Jansen adjourned the work session meeting at 6:25 p.m. Submitted by Scott Botcher City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING FEBRUARY 12, 2001 Mayor Jansen called the meeting to order at 6:35 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Jansen, Councihnan Labati, Councihnan Peterson, Councilman Ayotte, and Councihnan Kroskin STAFF PRESENT: Scott Botcher, Andrea Poehler, Todd Gerhardt, Todd Hoffinan, Kate Aanenson, . Bob Generous, and Teresa Burgess Public Present: Name Address Fred Prinz Deb Lloyd Deb King Chuck Gabrielson Josh Ishierka Janet & Jerry Paulsen Carolyn & Al Krueger Bonnie Labatt Linda Landslnan Susan Engh Sherry Ayotte Carlnen McMeen Steven Berq u ist Beth Lehman Keith & Lisa Kupcho Mike Ryan Vemel ie Cla~rton Phil Larsen Jules Smith Mike Zumwinkle Karen Weathers Leah Hawke Rod Franks 408 Santa Fe 7302 Laredo 2351 Lukewood 2600 Arboretum Boulevard 569 Summerfield Drive 7305 Laredo Drive 1600 Lake Lucy Road 3981 stratford Ridge 7329 Frontier Trail Mt. Calvary Lutheran Church, Excelsior Cascade Pass 9391 Foxford Road 7207 Frontier Trail 7194 Frontier Trail 7723 Frontier Trail 2595 Southern Court 422 Santa Fe Circle 6493 Nez Perce Drive Metropolitan Council 7250 Hillsdale Court -7235 Hazeltine Boulevard 7444 Moccasin Trail 8694 Mary Jane Circle Mayor Jansen: Good evening. Welcome. Before we get started this evening, as you can see we have a rather large crowd here tliis evening so if we could just establish a few rules of procedure if we could during the meeting. We have a lot of people here I'm sure that are rather passionate about their issues. We want to encourage people to be able to comment and hopefully in the course of the meeting we can hold any, be it applause or hissing if you would, or comments on any of the-speakers, it would certainly be appreciated that we keep things hospitable in the course of the meeting so with that said, appreciate everyone being here this evening. City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to approve the agenda as presented. All voted in favor and tile motion carried unanimously. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: Mayor Jansen: Moving on to public announcements. I have a statement that I'd like to read. In light of today's notoriety that we received in the metropolitan paper. All attempt .was made today in the Star Tribune to typecast Chanhassen as elitist. The editorial was in fact inaccurate and misleading. It's important to note that Chanhassen has been meeting our housing goals width tile Metropolitan Council and is presently working xvith them on an unrelated project. This unfortunate and untimely attempt, I'm sorry, untimely attack on our community could unjustifiablyjeopardize our relationship with tile Met Council and put future negotiations at risk. Since this council has only been in office for 43 days, we have not had an opportunity to discuss the strategies we will pursue to provide life cycle housing in Chanhassen. All members are aware of this issue and stand ready to serve the best interest of this community. \*'e are responsible for' following the comprehensive plan. city ordinances and listening to our residents. The 1997 community survey will be updated during the second quarter of this year to poll our residents for' their opinions on community issues. Housing issues will be included in that survey. We are also acting to organize a COlnmunity housing forum so our residents carl be informed and educated about our housing needs and review and comment on Chanhassen's current housing goals. There were numerous inaccuracies in tile Star Tribune article. A couple of them include, and I won't address all oftheln. Ill fact I'll start with the Pulte Holnes rezoning and land use plan amendment that was initially denied in concept review was due to the fact that it did not meet specific criteria in city ordinances as was stated by nienlbers of the previous City Council directed that rental homes needed to be removed. In fact tile City has no authority to control whether homes are re~.~tal or ownership. Tile Star Tribune also suggested that voters ousted tile previous mayor because she pushed fora wider variety of housing in Chanhassen. In fact townhomes and apartments weren't an issue of great discussion. \Vhat Chanhassen residents were very concerned and very vocal about was the leadership of this community being responsible to them and not to the Met Council. Relationships with tile Met Council and participation on tile Mayors Affordable Housing Task Force were perceived to be hidden fi'om the public. Those were issues during the election, not whether or not we were going to provide life cycle housing. Every member of this council has voiced a conm~itment to serve this community's best interest. \Ve have to balance Chanhassen's goals rather than making them mutually exclusive. Personal, self serving agendas cannot be allowed to dMde our community. \Vhoever is responsible for this divisive and misleading assault on this community does not have Chanhassen's best interest at heart. Chanhassen residents should not tolerate this dMsive behavior. Tile campaign season is over. As community leaders we're charged with deciding what is in tile best interest of this entire community, participating with our residents to make that determination. That does not mean that one goal must be sacrificed at the expense- of another. As 3,our mayor I encourage all of our residents to unite and work together for the common good. We're in this for Chanhassen. Thank you. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the CiD' Manager's recommendations: Resolution #2001-07: Resolution Changing City Council meeting start time from 6'30 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. c. Approval of Lake Ann Beach Contract for Lifeguard Services. City Cotll~cil Meeting - February 12. 2001 d. Resolution #2001-08: Receive Feasibility Report for Century Boulevard Project No. 97-1 C; Call fora Public Hearing. e. Approval of Bills. f. Approval of Minutes: - City Council Work Session Minutes dated November 16, 2000. - City Council Work Session Minutes dated November 27, 2000 - City Council Work Session Minutes dated December 11, 2000 - City Council Work Session Minutes dated January 29, 2001 -City Council Minutes dated January 11,2001 -City.' Council Minutes dated January 22, 2001 Receive Commission Mil~utes: - Planning Commission Minutes dated January 16; 2001 h. Request to Rezone property; fi'om RR. Rural Residential to RSF, Single Family Residential for t>l'operty located at 1916 Crestview Circle, Tot'3' Walton. i. Apl~ointment to Chanhassen Library Building Committee. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. G. APPOINTMENT OF MARK KROSKIN TO THE CITY COUNCIL. Mayor Jansen: Can I have a motion please on 1 (g)? Councilman Ayotte: I so move to appoint Mt'. Mark Kroskin to the City Council. Mayor Jansen: A second please. Councilman Labatt: Second. Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to appoint Mark Kroskin to the CiD~ Council. All voted in favor, except Councilman Peterson who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 1. B. APPROVAL OF RESOLUTION ESTABLISHING PARK & TRAIL DEDICATION FEES. Councilman Peterson: The only question I've got was, what increase was that over from the previous year? What's the previous amount? I couldn't figure out an increase. Todd Hoffman: The dollar amount? Councilman Peterson: Yeah. Todd Hoffman: On the chart on the second page it says recommended Chanhassen and then the current Chanhassen. $400 park increase and a trail increase. City Council Meeting - February 12.200 l Councilman Peterson: Has that amount been budgeted or not? Is this kind of new revenue fox' tls if we do the increase? Todd t4offman: New revenue. Councilman Peterson: Okay. That's it. Mayor Jansen' Okay. comfortable? Councilman Peterson' 5 e.,. Mayor Jansen: Okay, call [ have a motion Fol' approval of item 1 (b)? Councilman Labatt: Move approval. Max'or Jansen: And a second. Councilnlan Ayotte: Seco~ld. Resolution #2001-09: Co~:lncilman Labatt moved, Councilmai~ Ayotte seconded to apl)rove a Resolution Establishing Park and Trail Dedication Fees as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. OATH OF OFFICE: Andrea Poehler pe~'fo~imed the Oath of Office to Mark Kroskin as a council member for tile City of Ch~:nhassen. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Mayor Jansen: Under visit.or presentations I would like to recognize, and I did not see llim xx'hen I came im Nick Olson. Is Nick with tls this evening? If you might stand up so we could recognize you. I received a letter fi'om Nick. and I'm going to read your letter if you don't mind. I am ill the Chanhassen Boy Scout Troop 330 and x:l3' current rank is Virst Class. I am working towards tile Citizenship ill the Community merit badge to advance to Star in rank. One of the requirements is to write a letter to the ma,'or about a suggestion I have to help the community. \Ve live in a development called tile Oaks. which is just north of the Slone Creek development. Our street is called Lukewood Drive. There is a path going through the woods to tile Oaks to Stone Creek. After ~A of the trail there is a steep steps that leads down to a bridge and then back up a hill. I think before the steps there should be sign put to say, Caution, Steep Steps. The ~iigns would protect people who are jogging or biking fi'om falling down tile stairs. I know of at least one person who was not aware of the steep steps and did fall. I respectfully present this concern to the City of Chanhassen. Thank you roi' your consideration. And we've passed your letter along to our Parks and Rec Department to address that issue and we appreciate your bringing this to our attention Nick ar,d good luck oil your badge. Scott Botcher: Keep in mix:d that as you're looking for an Eagle Scout project, that would be a good one. Fol' what it's worth. I'm axx Eagle Scout just fox' what it's worth. I'm watching you. No. congratulations. I appreciale it. City Council Meeting- February ]2, 2001 Mayor Jansen: If there's anyone ill tile audience then that would like to address tile council under visitor presentations, you're certainly welcome to come forward and state your name and address for the record. Steve Berquist: My name is Steve Berquist. I live at 7207 Frontier Trail. I just want to understand the procedure tonight. Tile Pulte project is under nexv business. It's not under public hearings and I want to knoxv what you're going to allow for speakers insofar as in previous council meetings you had intimated that you may be trying to minimize public input and rely on Planning Commission minutes. Mayor Jansen: I certainly appreciate yOUl' bringing that up and I did memi to bring that up as I address the procedures for the evening. As Mr. Berquist did state, we are using the minutes from the Planning Commission for the general comments on projects that were held in public hearing at the Planning Commission meeting. Realizing that this is an issue that's of concern to the public, we will at the time that we get to the Pulte prqiect, open it up for about 30 minutes of public comment and request that everyone keep their comments, out of respect for everyone else, to 3 to 5 minutes. And that's how we're planning on handling the Pulte section of the agenda. If that answers your question Mr. Berquist. Steve Berquist: Thank you. Mayor Jansen' You're welcome. Anyone else liking to address the council? Okay, seeing no one we will lnove onto our, oil. Susan Engh' Susan Engh, pastor at Mt. Calvary Lutheran Church isl-Excelsior, juSt another question about procedu,'e. When we get to the part about Livable Communities Actl will there also be an opportunity for public input or will that be just to the council? Mayor Jansen: \Ve can certainly.' provide a few moments for conversation on that since you do bring that . lap. Susan Engh' Okay, thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. \Vhy don't we, anybody else before I jump too quick. Okay. \VIE,' don't we move onto unfinished business. DISCUSSION OF ROUNDHOUSE RESTORATION PROJECT. Todd Hofflnan: Mayor Jallsen and melnbers of the City Council. Tile last City Council meeting the council asked for additional information regarding the renovation project at the round house at Roundhouse Park. If you've read the staff report I really have nothing further to add. I think we're at a point where council needs to discuss how they'd like to move forward and direct staff in that regard. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. We'll bring this back to council. As Todd stated, they've gotten back to us with the information that we requested in the last meeting. The main considerations for the council ' this evening are directing staff as to how we would like this project handled going forward. We had discussed during the last meeting, turning it back to the Parks and Rec Commission if in fact we want to turn it back over for inore public comment and review. But direction should certainly be given as to the budget that we would be looking to. Have the city potentially address on this project. So with that, if council has comments. City Council Meeting - February 12,2001 Scott Botcher: And maybe I'I1 just refl'esh, maybe and I don't know Mark if you're aware of this or not but I'll give you tile cliff note version real fast. Originally there was $40,000 in the budget, capital budget for this project. It was subsequently increased to $80,000. Todd has bid the project twice, and I'm sure you all have probably received copies of the same e-mails I got today before the virus hit. There was one of tile letter writers I think that I got fi'om you Linda. you forwarded it that questioned whether or not we had gone to bid on this and we've actually done it twice. And tile bids have come ill substantially higher than even the $80,000 number. And so I guess in a n.utshell Mark that's where we are financially. Councilman Kroskin: I had a question. Was there $40.000 that was raised during tile '97 park and trail referendum? Is that part of the l¥1. olley? Todd Hoffinan' Yes. Councilman Kroskin' Okay. And then the other $40.000 was CIP Fol' the year 20002 Todd t-IofFlYlall: Con'ect. Councilman Kroskin: Okay. And so that's where the Full 80 is coming fi'om. Alright. Mayor Jansen: And I believe, iFI'm not mistaken, you mentioned in one of our last meetings tile park and trail referendum budget ran over the amount of the referendum, correct? That Was overspent. Todd Hoffmal~' Yes. Mayor Jansen' 5;0 x'im~allv that Fund is unavailable as far as the 540,000 there as a Funding source. \Ve'd be looking to tile CIP cun'ently. Todd Hofflnan' Park and trail dedication fees. Scott Botcher: Todd had recolnmended somewhere in the report a transfer. I think it said in this report. That is meant to offset that deficient position whereby then you can move ahead if you wanted to with the $80,000 that's contelnplated. That still leaves the question above the 80 but that gets you to 80. Mayor Jansen: And then also in addition in the last meeting I think we spoke 'to the Fact that $20,000 has already been spent on this project. Scott Botcher: About, approximately. Mayor Jansen: For tile engineering fees I believe it was. Okay, so $20,000 has already been spent. Councilman Ayotte: Ma5' I? Mayor Jansen' Certainly. IFyou want to pull your microphone closer so people can hear please. Councilman Ayotte: I'm sorry. IFthe nulnbers are going in the right direction, and I've received a number of e-mails, however. Based on our financial situation, the only tiling that I'm interested in doing at this point is stopping tile degradation and then charging parks and rec to figure out a better way of skinning the cat. I'm prepared to go no more than $15,000 to arrest tile degradation. To stop the water City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 fi'om coming in and to carten off the area to deal with the concern, tile environmental concern. Beyond that I'm not interested ill moving tnuch beyond that point. I'm very concerned over tile fact that we have a $20,000 design effort that quoted, or referenced I think it was about a $280 per square foot cost, and in this environment I don't think that's acceptable so I think ~ve ought to do everything we can to save it. I think xve should move forward to stop the degradation and to carten offthe area so that we don't have any concern for the lead chips and ask Park and Rec to come up with a better way of skinning the cat. Mayor Jansen: And just so I clearly understand, you would put a cap on a. ny additional spending of $15.0007 Councilman Ayotte' Correct. May,'or Jansen: Okay, thank you Councilman Ayotte. Anyone else with comments? Councilman Labatt: I'll share mine. Somewhat along tile same lines as Bob, although I'd like to even look at it fi~rther back to the Park and Rec Commission to do, and I wish I would have brought the e-mail fi'om the lady that I call give her credit fol' the idea. But similar to what the folks in Excelsior did with the steamship M innehaha when they pulled that up fi'om the bottom of Lake Minnetonka and they used private fimds and fundraising and it sat dormant for a while but they utilized a great resource there to keep a historic piece and I'm not, once you teal' it down it's gone and I'm not one to do that 3'et. I'd like to see what the Park and Recreation Commission can come up with. Fundraising and maybe neighborhood input and work that out over there. So, but I'm okay witli B°b's stopping the degradation. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Do you have a dollar amount roi' the city's funding in mind? Councilman Labatt: \Vell I guess we've got $40,000 in the CIP that we've ah'eady allocated to it. I'm okay with leaving $40,000 in there. Mayor Jansen' \Ve've spent 20. Councilman Labatt: Well, I'm okay with leaving 20 in. Mayor Jansen' Okay. So capping it at an additional 20 so that the total is 40? Councilman Labatt: The 20 we've spent, is that ah'eady out of the 40 fi'om tile CIP or is that out of some other fi~nd? Mayor Jansen: Well that would be a determination that we would ill fact make but $20,000 in funds have been spent towards the project. Todd Hoffinan: It's actually slightly less than that. The architectural contract was $11,000. $7,000 roi' lead base paint and asbestos $780 so, and some other ~niscellaneous costs. Scott Botcher: But those are not general fund monies. Those are the referendum park and trail so. Mayor Jansen: Right. So now you're correcting the 20 to more like 15, is what you're saying? Todd I-/offman: Yes. City Council Meeting- February 1'~,~.o001 Mayor Jansen: Okay. So actually' you could put a total cap, i£I'ln hearing you correctly, you're comfortable with tile 40 total with what's been spent and getting up to 40. Cotmcilman Labatt: Yes. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Anyone else? Councilman Kroskin: I guess I see of the 80 there's approximately $25,000 left. I'm willing to allow that to be spent on it and I'd like to see, you know I agree with Councitmai~ Labatt and Councilman Avotte. I'd like to see where the rubber meets the road with the community as far as raising the necessary ful~ds to get this restored, iFthat in fact is what the community wants. Mayor,lansen' Okay, thank you. Councilman Peterson' Well Madam Mayor; I'm i guess not that dissimilar. I'd like to have the building remain. I don't think that I want to spend 5140.000 to do that. 1 don't see the utility value being that substantial. I mean it's going to be a xvam~ing house. I can't see it being used in the summer extensively just because of the structure. You just don't get a lot of people that want to go inside in all enclosed building then. And as far as utility value for a warming house, we've got a 2 story building that we're ooin,, to be heatin~ which based upon the monthly cost that all of us are experiencina right now. and if tl~at number doesn't go down for the cost oft~el, it's going to be a substantial cost just to wal'llq it. So I don't know if' it's. I'm not ready to say an additional 15 or an additional number because we didn't really ask that question as to what it would cost to stop the degradation. Give the community an opportunity to raise molley rio I'm not really ready to say that $15.000 will do it. If maybe up to $15,000 xvhicl~ is logical money wise. tfit takes 5, let's not spend 15. Councilman Avotte: So a not to exceed. Mayor Jansen: Did you have a comment Scott? Scott Botcher: Well Steve likes my picture here. My only question is this. and you can send it back to Park and Rec but I would hope that, part of me says that if we do ]5, to pick a number we've spent $35.000 and we stilt don't know what to do with it. And maybe-I'm just being an old Norwegian but it's, and I think the idea of throwing it out to tile COmlnunity and saying if you want to save this, put tip or shut up, is SOl't of what you're all saying. I think it's a good idea. But I think you need to consider that if we get to a date certain where nothing happens we've got to be honest with ourselves and sa5, you know, this building, whicla is not, to me it's not a historic building. It's an old building they moved there and cut windows into and cut doors into and everything else. It doesn't have much utility, maybe we shouldl~'t spend city money on it. So I'm not opposed to that but just understand that I'd hate to just avoid putting off a decision because we sort of have warm fuzzies for this old thing without a date certain saying okay, this is the date. For xvhat it's worth. I think Park and Rec's job is difficult to try to figure out hov,, to skin the cat so to speak. Mayor Jansen: Well and what I am hearing is if these additional funds are going to be spent, they need to be spent physically on the building and not on additional planning so if we're rolling up to actually doing plans with community input, I'm hearing that this needs to be a functioning warming house that the $15.000 or up to 40 total, depending on where we end up, needs to be applied to the building to have it become a warming house with additional funding and volunteer work coining from the cornmunity. Am I summarizing that appropriately? City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Councilman Ayotte: No more studies. Scott Botcher: And I understood Bob's comment is, let's just create some stability with the building. Let's just not lose the building. That's what Bob, if I'm reading you right, is suggesting that we buy with the 15 grand. And that's great. But then I think what we need to say okay at some point, because you know Bob. He runs buildings. That 15 grand will stop it from degradating only for so long. And then you're going to have the same problem again and you would have spent 15 grand plus the 20 grand, you'll be back in the same position and I don't think that's a wise use of tim money. Mayor Jansen: Mr. Hoffman. Todd Hoffman: The only thing we'll do if we want to take this back to the Park and Recreation Commission is put that fence up around the building. We're not going to be able to do that until we can drive a fence pole into the ground. So by the time we get done with the public hearings, or neighborhood input meetings at the park commission, we will not have spent a penny and we can repo~t back to the park commission. Mayor Jansen: In approximately 60 days? Todd l~loffman: Sure. Yeah. Mayor Jansen: Is that enough time.0 Todd Hoffinan: And then when the ground thaws enough to put a fence up arOund it so we can alleviate the concerns over the lead paint on the exterior, then we'll do that and then that building will either be renovated through a neighborhood/city effort or razed. Councilman Ayotte: I'd like to make one additional comment because I don't want to be tainted as being warm and fuzzy. Scott Botcher: I would never suggest that. Councilman Ayotte: But regardless of to go forward because there is the abatement requirement, lead based paint and so on, so if we were to take it down, we'd still have to address those issues. That's why I feel that it makes sense to keep the structure up, arrest the degradation, protect the public and that's my thougllt process. Mayor Jansen: Okay. I think that takes care of it and we'll hear back in 60 days. Do we need any sort of a lnotion or did you just need direction at this point? Scott BOtcher: Direction works for me. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. REZONING REQUEST FROM A-2, AGRICULTURAL ESTATE TO PUD, PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT; A LAND USE PLAN AMENDMENT FROM LOW DENSITY TO MEDIUM DENSITY RESIDENTIAL, COMMERCIAL OFFICE TO MEDIUM DENSITY, AND OFFICE INDUSTRIAL TO COMMERCIAL; PRELIMINARY PLAT SUBDIVISION OF 120.93 ACRES; City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT; CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR DEVELOPMENT WITHIN THE BLUFF CREEK OVERLAY DISTRICT; AND RECOMMENDATION AND REVIEW OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT WORKSHEET FOR A MIXED HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (383 UNITS) CONSISTING OF CLUB HOMES, MANOR HOMES, COACH HOMES, VILLAGE HOMES, AND RENTAL TOWNHOMES ON 89.5 ACRES AND 2.9 ACRES OF COMMERCIAL USES ON PROPERTY ZONED A2, AGRICULTURAL ESTATE; LOCATED ON THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF HIGHWAYS 5 AND 41; ARBORETUM VILLAGE, PULTE HOMES. Kate Aanenson: Thank you Madam Mayor and council members. What I'd like to do first is kind of fl'ame up my pol~iOn of the discussion what I'd like to go through. Included in your packet is an executive summal')' That's the format that you've requested that the staff look at. This is a very complicated issue. Mayor Jansen' Thank you. Kate Aanenson: Tile second attachment is tile update that went to tile Planning Commission. And tile third attachment is the original staff report. Unfortunately the changes that were made to the staff report was not tile one that you received in your packet. I did hand out those changes and I'll go through those briefly tonight. So tile developer is here, available roi' questions. I've asked him to.just be prepared to · ansxver questions. They will not be making a presentation so I'm going to keep my format just'to tile executive summary. The salient points. If you have specific questions I'd be happy to answer them. If I need assistance then I would call upon the developer. Councilman Avotte: Can evervboclv hear her? Audience: Not real well. Kate Aanenson: Project area. Arboretmn Village, tile developer tSulte Homes. Approximately 120 acres gross. The developer is asking for 379 units consisting of club homes, manor homes, coach homes and village homes on a net density of less than, on the 120, approximately 89.5 and also commercial on 2.94 acres of property. This prqject has 6 different requests before you. A comprehensive plan and preliminary planned unit development, a subdivision, a site plan review, wetland alteration permit, environmental assessment worksheet and a conditional use permit. This process began with the city ill the summer of 1999. As you are aware this area was brought into tile city's MUSA area, urban services itl tile 5'ear 2000. Development is being driven by the fl'ontage road alignment and the provision of municipal services being brought to the site. Tile developer has been hard working with tile city in trying to meet some of the goals. Again the n-lost westerly portion of this area ill tile Bluff Creek Overlay District and the acquisition of the right-of-way for \Vest 78th Street was not included ill the original project so everything west of Century Boulevard is being dedicated by the developer. I'll go through r~..ol'e specifics on tile density and that allocation ill a minute. As this project evolved, and when it originally came in, what you have also seen in your packet, we worked hard to get product diversity which is a goal of the city under the housing goals is try to get different product. We worked hard to get 4 different styles in 4 different price ranges. While 41% of the project is the affordable, a purchase price of under $134,250, there's no mechanism ill place to guarantee that these homes have a minimum price value. Again this is market driven. There's no screening of applicants for those price points. Again the goal is to provide that opportunity. Early in the process, over a year ago we met v,,ith Westwood Church when we learned that they were buying the property. School District 112 and the developer to try to xxork that out. The original vision roi' this property was either medium density, I'm talking at the corner 10 City Council Meeting - February 12,2001 of Highway 41 and Highxvay 5, for institutional use, industrial use or medium density. So when we learned that the school district was looking for another elementary site and that Westwood was looking at the 67 acres a site, we tried hard to collaborate some shared opportunities for the school, maybe working with Westwood, moving people around. We spent several hours negotiating, looking at positives. As it turned out, it seemed unlikely that the objectives of the different parties could be inet. So Pulte retained ownership of their property. Westwood maintained ownership of their property, which is the property just west of this site on 41. Tile recently adopted Bluff Creek Overlay District, when we pointed this out xvith the primary zone, allows for density transfer. The only way to transfer the density is to up zone the property. Is consistent xvith tile comprehensive plan as stated as far as number of units. But in the current zoning there's only 3 zoning options and those are the 15,000 square foot minimum, the twin homes or tile PUD xvith 11,000 square foot. Our goal has always been as stated to the developer that we want to preserve that area, 11 acres in the primary zone. Again the tool wasn't in place. That's what forced tile request by tile staffto up zone tile property. We had to go to the medium density to allow for cluster zoning. Tile PUD ordinance specifically states in Section 20-508 that single family attached cluster, zero lot lines and similar dxvellings can only be allowed on property zoned medium or high density. Therefore precipitated tile request to re-guide the property. The Park and Recreation Commission made a reco~nmendation to accept full park and trail fees. Again thi.s is an estimate based on the number of units would be approximately halfa million dollars. And that would be at a 2000, 3'ear 2000 rate. Ill lieu of fees certainly there's other options. You can require land dedication. Again there's looking at tile formulas it may be approximately 8 to 11 units to an acre. One of the things that the Planning Commission looked at too is tile possibility of in that area where there's tree that we're trying to preserve adjacent to Highway 5, is using some of the park and trail fees to possiblybuy some of those trees. In looking at that again the developer has provided the open space as requested by the Park Commission so this would be in lieu of taking park and trail fees is buying additional trees. The density transfe,' as far as the ,'ight-of-way for West 78th Street,.as indicated west of Century Boulevard, is being developed, dedicated by the developer. The only thing the developer's responsible for is a'local street at 60 foot right-of-way so density could be given to the developer, which we've done in other - circumstances, in excess of that. Tile nexus is only require, the benefit to that road goes beyond this development. The PUD ordinance allows for private streets and that street, this street is shown as a private street. The way our ordinance reads is that if it's a private street you can use it for density. If it's a public street, you don't get to use it for density. The developer did put in a public street. He could certainly take that out. I showed different zoning. The narrowest interpretation, or the broadest interpretation that you may want to give that which would affect density and that is on page 7 of the staff report. Of that last staff report. Mayor Jansen: Of the new one? Kate Aanenson: Of the nexv one, correct. Again going through there's the executive summary. The second packet is the Planning Commission updates. The information they were studying. Kind of their salient points. And that third attachment, page 7 goes through the scenarios under the density transfer for road right-of-way. But again the city has used this in the PUD ordinance in the past. So this project is also being assessed for BluffCreek project. Bluff Creek, the 7 and 8 project as proposed. The assessments will be about a half million dollars. Again the assessments, the project is a fixed number so depending on how many units that gets it fixed. And if there's additional park space that would affect some of the adjustments. I just want to make sure everybody's clear on that. Some of the assessment numbers. Council~nan Ayotte: Actually that's $464,000. ll City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Kate Aanenson: Approximately, yes. 100. Then also tile Planning Commission spent numerous meetings going through, pushing up the architecture. They actually asked for additional changes. Included in your packet were also the changes they want specifically identified in tile design standards which are included with the adoption of this project which include design standards. Specifically they wanted additional architectural detail and percentage of brick called out so there wouldn't be any changes based on representation of pictures. Those are all called out in the attachments and become part of the design summary. This project holds in abeyance that commercial piece. That 2.9 acres. That would come back at a later date. We put the design standards in here. It's left in an outlot. That would come back at a later date for design reviexv. But tile design standards that'are in place in this document is what this developer will be held to. So the Planning Commission spent a lot of time resolving that. They also recommended 6 to 0 six motions that are in the staff report. Again just a final follow-up as far as the density and tile park and trail fees. There's one option to accomplish that. \Ve're looking at tile Bluff Creek. trying to resolve maybe transferring some of tile density back or taking some of tile park and trail fees and buying some of the additional which the Planning Commission had also discussed, too. Additional park land or some of the treed areas. \Vith that tile project does need some minor modifications which we outlined in the staff report. Some txx'eaking on some of the wetland setbacks, especially up in the northeast comer....we believe those call all be accomplished with minor modifications and this would come back before this council for final plat approval to show you that they've met those conditions. So you would see that again with the preliminary approval. With that I've included ill your packet tile motions. All six motions and again if you have any specific questions I'd be hnppy to answer those. Mayor Jansen: Thank you Kate. I actually have a couple in l'egards to some changes that have occurred since we saw this ii1 tile concept review. You touched tlpOll olle of them in regards to that stand of trees that is along Highway 5. Ill the original concept review it stayed 100% intact and tile proposal that we have before tls this evening ill fact takes out about 50% of that stand of trees. You mentioned that tile Planning Commission of course, and we saw that within tile minutes, had some conversation around using tile park dedication fees in order to protect that stand and actually purchase that property. Has there been conversation with the developer as to tile ability to do that? Kate Aanenson: Yes there has. I think part of the compression back into tile trees v,.'as a result of trying to provide this larger open space in this area. That pushed SOlne of those units back. The original concept plan also had that L design and what we were concerned about was tile view fi'om Highway 5. \Ve wanted to narrow that so it didn't add to the bulk so we wanted tile narroxvness of the building to give a good view. Also provided nicer space bem, een the units because these units all look into a green space as opposed to the L so xve felt that was superior but by elongating them it pushed them back into tile trees. So the Planning Commission discussed you know the importance of that and that's why they came back and said maybe it'd be better to lose some of those units in tile treed areas in some power through the compensation and eliminate some of the units so that was one of their options. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Because that is a COllCel'l~_ and that was an issue that of course all 5 council people a year ago really focused on was tile preservation of that pm-t of this project, just because that is such a major stand. Tile other focus piece that we discussed at length a year ago ,,vas tile comer interest and the fact that tile Highway 5 corridor study does designate this corner as the gateway into tile community, and of course we carried on at length about how to protect that view shed as you come into Chanhassen. The concept review plan had a much larger pond xvith a fountain and a boulder retaining wall that at least gave it some interest and the Highway 5 corridor study actually suggests the preservation and restoration possibility of the wetland on that corner, which of course was delineated as part of the EAW. Has there 12 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 been any further discussion? I mean obviously this has gone away from that concept and has there been discussion about being able to add that interest on that corner? Kate Aanenson: I'm confident tile developer would be willing to put trees in. That's kind of what we v,,ent back to the Planning Commission was some concern about a fountain at that location. I did meet with Peter Olin at the Arboretum. The Arboretum is contemplating a fountain on the other side. Sometimes those can be a problem on that busy of an intersection. Maintenance. Attractive nuisance sort of issue. The direction we steered the developer is going back to the study that Bill Morrish at the University of Minnesota looked at and that would be more natural type lafidscaping. Grove of trees. We do have a plan that was never officially adopted that called out different species of trees at the intersection. I'ln confident that was a condition the developer would be happy to come back with some specific plans roi' your approval on. Mayor Jansen: And actually enhance that corner further? Kate Aanenson: Yep. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Because it does look like you'd have tile potential again of losing some units as you were to expand that out so I didn't know if that was something that had been taken into consideration. Kate Aanenson: I don't know if you'd have to. it's dropping down quite quickly. That was some of the issue too about the viability of s0me of that. It drops in grade right there too so, but we can look at that. Mayor Jansen: Okay. The other point that we had brought up as part of the re{;iew was we were looking at doing this transition of density. Since we are rezoning that northern property fi'om single family, which would at this point allow for single family detached or twin homes. The current proposal as it's come back has the twin homes along tile northern border, but we had also specifically requested that the eastern boundary also transition with a single family like product as we stepped them up into the density which becomes you know the townhomes as part of the whole rezoning issue. Have you looked at that with the developer at this point? Kate Aanenson: Yeah, I believe those, I think tile product type itself, if you look at the depth within there to that wetland, I think the product type may be able to be split into two units. They're probably the same type ora dwelling unit. If you end up with the same, it'd just be split. But that's a possibility too. Mayor Jansen: Of putting the twin homes along that eastern border. Kate Aanenson: I'ln saying twin holnes but not necessarily this twin home. I think those products would be split into twin homes but it might not be the same club home type. Do you follow me on that? Mayor Jansen: Sure. So you're talking about yet another type of housing. Kate Aanenson: \Veil I think fi'om my understanding it would be the product that's there would just be split instead ora 3 or a... Mayor Jansen: Okay. 13 City Council Meeting- February 1° ,, 2001 Kate Aanenson' What you do is you split so you end up witln 2. It'd be tile same product and again that's. Mayor Jansen: Yeah I follow you. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, it's working wittn tile topograplny and the natural features down to tlnat wetland that I'm not sure that tile depth of that club home would fit on tlnat same site. You could make it twin homes by splitting them, or we can look at. Mayor Jansen' So they'd be smaller tv,'in homes? Kate Aanenson' Correct. Tlmt's my point. Mayor Jansen' Okay. I got you. Tlnose were tile 3 questions tlnat I lnad fi'om tile concept review. My other question roi' you came fi'om tile current staff report on the Miss Rosie's Farm. Within there we have a letter fl'Olll Ms. McAllister where she's withdrawing lner agreement to waiving that 300 foot setback, and I'm wondering if you've had tlnat conversation with lner because it does appear to still be xvitlnin tile conditions as part of the motion that sine would be waiving tlnat 300 Feet. and of course slne's identified the Fact, I know as we went tlnrougln tile wlnole review of her farm the big issue was trying to avoid her becoming or tlnat farm becoming a nuisance as we're building up around it. So that 300 foot was really to avoid anyone being so close tlnat she then subsequently becomes a nuisance xvlnen she's the existing propert3 at this point. Kate Aanenson: Tile way the Planning Commission addressed that, we knew finis project was coming doxx'n tile pipe as we reviewed the other and we pointed that out to the Planning Commission and we specifically said any single family type. \Ve looked at'finis project. I did get all opinion fi'om fine City Attorney's office based on our definition ofwlnat we put in that interim use. 300 feet fi'om any single family. \Ve didn't intend it to be this type of product. Because finis is not a single family type product. \Ve also put a condition ill there that the developer apprise all property owners of fine farm ill fine area and also that they apprise of the ground lnome in tile area, so that's how the Planning Commission addressed it. And tile City Attorney concurred tlnat ttnat was our original interpretation so we knew this project was coming ill and if it was something else. tlnen we'd want a greater setback. Mayor Jansen' I guess I'm curious about tlmt interpretation because what we're doing is we're putting more people ill closer proximity to it so even if you're living in a single family home 02' a multi family lnome, you're going to smell and hear fine same issues with fine farm. And I just looked at the feedlot regulations that were put in our packet from tile county as an example, and of course they're saying 500 feet fi'om residential and they're not getting real specific about single and multi family. Kate Aanenson' There's not Concurrence on whether 02' not there's a feedlot ordinance requirement or not. So tlnere's a difference of opinion on that. Mayor Jansen' Okay. Alriglnt. Council, any other questions roi' staffat this point? Councilman Ayotte: In tile packet, page 8, point 38 where they're talking about tile applicant will be responsible for escrow a portion of the cost of the future traffic light. Kate Aanenson' Correct. 14 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Councilman Ayotte: Was there any discussion with respect to what that breakout would be and xvhat tile balance of that amount would be? Who would pay what? Kate Aanenson' Teresa, do you want to answer that? Teresa Burgess' That was a recomlnendation, that condition was added by the Planning Commission. That was not added by the engineering staff. We concur that there's not a problem with doing that but at this time we do not kllow what the cost of that traffic light will be because we do not know what year one would become necessary. And as you and I discussed earlier, my recommendation is if the council does want to tie that down, we could tie it down by percentage or tile other option would be to say that tile properties xvill be assessed at the time of a traffic signal being placed based on their impact to be determined in a feasibility study at this time. That would allow us to come back and assess those properties based on what they're actually contributing to the cost instead of based on something that we arbitrarily set tonight. Cotmcilman Ayotte: I wasn't asking for arbitrarily setting tonight but to make it a matter of public record so that it is addressed at a future point. Teresa Burgess: And we could certainly address that before tile final plat is approved, which is when the developer's agreement would be signed at tile same time_. And at that time get comfortable giving you a percentage that we could attribute to this development. Kate Aanenson' \Ve have used that same-process on other projects XYe've required environmental or a traffic study on. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you Teresa. Any other questions for staff at this point? Otherwise I'm going to open this up for public comment. As I mentioned at the beginning of the meeting, and now we've had quite a few more people join us so just let me repeat myself. Because we have so many individuals here and we certainly recognize that there's some passion around this issue, if we could please try to be as respectful as possible for the speakers because we don't want to inhibit anyone's ability to stand up at the microphone. Heaven knows we're not all public speakers and everyone should have a right to be able to voice their opinions without be it applause or hissing or any comments. If we could just refi'ain fi'om expressing any opinions and let our speakers speak their minds tonight. We'll hold this to approximately 30 minutes. If everyone could maybe be conscious of everyone else's time to speak and hold their comments to 3 to 5 minutes we would appreciate it. So with that I'll open it up for public comment. If when you approach the podium you could state your name and address for the record please. Steve Berquist: You an old Norsk Scott? Scott Botcher: Aln I a? Steve Berquist: You intimated that you were an old Norske. Not as old as I am. Scott Botcher: Yeah, I've got that lefse and lutefisk at home. Steve Berquist: iX43, name is Steve Berquist. I live at 7207 Frontier Trail and once again I brought water so I don't go dry which I have a tendency to do. And once again I've written out my comments because I speak better fi'om written comments rather than extemporaneously. I'll keep it brief. The proposed 15 City Council Meeting - February~ 1 o~, 2001 project for the no;tlm'est quadrant of Highway 5 and 41 will prove to be a good first test for this, whether this current council will be leaders for the good of the entire community or people who's primary purpose lies in paying off political debt incurred to win an election. To me who has watched this whole thing transpire, this is truly what it boils down to. Those of you si~ing out there who were actually elected to serve this community all stated your desires to bring affordable life cycle housing to the city of Chanhassen. I've seen you nod your heads approvingly when talk turns to providing housing opportunities to people who work here and in the surrounding area. You'.ye nodded approvingly when empty nesters, school teachers, factory workers, retail employees and retired folks have been mentioned . as examples of those needing affordable housing. So here we are. This i~ a project before you that has gone through the process. It has gone through the park and rec depamnent and the Park and Rec Commission, which is made up of 7 volunteers fi'om the community. It's gone through the planning department and the Planning Commission which has 7 volunteers fi'om the community. It has been revised and reworked, polished and honed. There's still a liule bit to do. It's been hammered and formed. It has finally received seals of approval fi'om all the necessary entities and now it comes to you. The project is within the BluffCreek Overlay District. The BluffCreek Watershed ordinance was worked on by 20 to 25 volunteers fi'om the community. This is pa~x of the process. The methods by which this community resource should be protected were defined by these volunteers and then incorporated into an ordinance Form for implementation. Those of you with any experience at the city level, any level within the city know the impolxance of being proactive in a developing community. The Bluff Creek ordinance is a very proactive doculnent that will serve this community well for many years. And again now it comes to you. There are still meetings going on in the Longacres development where this project is being labeled as subsidized housing.- Why? After all the communications, all the meetings, why is this untruth continuing to be told? Is it because ora fear of crime? The Carver County Sherifffs Depallment and the Chanhassen Crime Prevention Specialist have both publicly stated that criminal activity in these types of owner occupied units are no higher than in neighborhoods like Sunrise Hills or Minnewashta Heights or Longacres. Is it because of concern over property values? The Maxfield Study has quantified that there is no discernable difference in prope~%, values when mixed use. mixed density projects adjoin single Family neigliborhoods. Is it because of school district impacts? Given the student average per housing type, minimizing the unit per acre density may provide more students for District 112 to educate than the higher density units proposed. Is it because of fear over those people who would live there? List of professions that make up the folks that live in Walnut Grove makes for real interesting reading. There are account executives, accountants, financial planners, teachers, auto mechanics, bank loan officers, aMine pilots, forklift drivers, food service workers, company owners, insurance executives and bus drivers. The opposition to this housing project is insulting to those people who live in Walnut Grove and Mission Hills. It's insulting to everyone looking for all opportunity to own a home they can afford. And so now it comes to you. The Chanhassen Chamber of Colnmeree has publicly passed a resolution in suppo~1 of affordable housing in Chanhassen. The church leaders and lay groups in town continue to advocate for affordable housing in Chanhassen. Members of the school boards and district staff believe it to be an impo~xant issue. So now it comes to you. AUempting to cloud the issue xvith talk of ignorance to Chanhassen's long stated goal of a 30% overall affordable housing mix versus 30% development is an obvious a~empt to undermine the project and it only serves the Purpose of duplicitous elected officials, not elected leaders. Leaders are concerned with the entire community and make decisions with the long view in mind. Whether or not people will suppo~x them in the next election. Leadership is about addressing needs and to finding solutions without political ramifications clouding the consideration process. Leadership is believing with your head what your hemx tells you is right. You all must get past this point. You'll upset some people who have done their work to upset this project, but you'll have enhanced your position as leaders of this communiU,. Thank you. 16 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Mayor Jansen' Thank you. Anyone else who would like to address tile council. Susan McAllister: I know we're all playing a game of chicken. I decided to be next. I do have some handouts that I wish to present the City Council with very quickly. Mayor Jansen: Certainly. Susan McAllister: My name is Susan McAllister. I live at 7461 Hazeltine Boulevard and I am officially Pulte's 01112)' neighbor. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Susan McAIlister: Do you wish me to do tile Bluff Creek ordinance presentation like I did before? Mayor Jansen' I think we're all familiar with the ordinance Sue. Susan McAIlister: Okay. May' I just put tile board tip with the photographs so the council can... Mayor Jansen: Certainly, if you'd like. Susan McAllister: I'ln just going to say tile different areas and then I'm just not going to touch oil this part anymore. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Susan McAllister: Okay. Here we've got Highway 41 looking south. Tile north wooded area on tile left and I I acres on tile right. So the 11 acres is oil this side and the north wood acre that abuts my property is half these trees are... Here's tile I 1 acre preserved area west of Highway 41, looking west so actually I was ill my driveway right here looking to the west at tile 11 acres. The new wetland area west of Highway 41 is the same as this area up here, but this is xvhere the proposed new wetland is going to be. And this is it in tile summer time. I'm looking east from Highway 5 so I'm standing, you know west looking east, fi'om the north to tile south tree line. This happens to be my farm over here. This is the fence row of trees. In here is that treed area to tile south that's just on tile north side of 5. That 50% or so is going to be removed I guess is what they sa3'. I'm not sure. Here I'm ill the wetland fi'om Bud Olson's property and I'm looking to tile south. And this is the entire you knox,,, north side of that wetland area. And Longacres is actually down this way about 1,000 feet or something. Here I am on the trail ill Longacres and I'm looking at a 2 ½ to 3 acre piece that's also supposed to be preserved, so I'm actually oil a trail right here, Longacres trail and I'm looking towards Bud Olson's house. And here I am on Highway 5 going east, traveling east. Well actually traveling west so this is another view of the treed area to tile south. It's a gorgeous, you know a wonderful, wonderful trees and it definitely is very important to me because I was one of the volunteers that was on tile Bluff Creek ordinance. Tile corridor study actually and I just want everybody to -know how important it is. It's hardly anything from what it was xvhen this was first settled in, I can't remember when it was. Over 100 years ago but there's hardly anything left and when you think about it, it used to be the Big Woods. There's hardly any of it so I really wish to protect every possible tree we can. Okay, I'm going into the, I'm going to address my petting farm ordinance now .... page 34. It happens to be a Planning Commission meeting, June 6th. I'm just going to read a couple of things. It seems to be reeked with concerns that I should be protected by this 300 feet. Could some, I'm asking, could somebody explain what is this 300 feet because I did not know what was going on at that point. Kirchoff: That is for noise purposes and also for smell. Kirchoff 17 City Council Meeting - February 12. 2001 goes on to say, no I'm just talking about noise in general. Noise ii1 general. We receive numerous, nt~merous complaints about noise. I;11 turn to the next page which is again, here I am again wondering about this 300 foot thing and I talk about 300 feet. What exactly is that going to mean to me then? When you say tile 300 feet, I keep referring to that because that makes me a little nervous. That's me speaking. Kirchoff: That's measured fi'om the barn to tile dwelling. Not tile property line. It's not to tile property line. Just to keep that 300 foot separation between the two uses. Susan again. Between what? Between tile barn anti the property line of what? Kirchoff: Dwellings. Deb Kind.. Conmqissioner Kind. Between the barn and the house. Tile physical house. There's not 300 feet betxveen the barn and tile house I say because there wasn't, and they said the new house. Not your house but a new house. Okay, then I started to get it. Planning Commission meeting April 19th. Commissioner Blackowiak states, if indeed the proposed development goes through, which they're probably talking about Pulte. we're going to have all kinds of' neighbors that are going to be right up next door and there will be complaints and that's just a given. That;s going to happen regardless of the fact that she was there first, there are going to be people that are not going to be happy about it. Page 39. From tile Planning Commission meeting June 6th. Commissioner Kind' Mr. Chair. I'll start with the question I was going to ask Sue and maybe you guys can help me. Tile 300 foot between dxvellings, is that al1 issue with this plan? Will she be at least 300 feet fi'om a dwelling? Aanenson: Pulte Homes, I believe so. Kind: Yeah. so that's not even all issue for this particular plan. We need to put it iii there roi' the standards. Page 26 of the January 16, 2001 Planning Conqmission meeting. Ladd Conrad states, if somebody makes a motion I think you've got to know what's there and I'm asking tl~at, making that number up, I don't know how we call make some motions tonight without talking about tile McAllister property. Because once you put tile plat iii effect or the site plan you are saying you can put a house here. Aanenson' \Veil I think what you could sa>.' is. unless that gets removed you can't put a house there. It's going to go forward to the City Council and by tile time tile>' do final plat you're 2 months out. But what my recommendation would be is that. unless the conditions on tile interim use were modified, that those txvo units would not be able to be placed there. Unless tile conditions are modified. Blackowiak: Are you talking about 23 and 24? Correct. - Okay. Okay, the two units iii 24. or I'm sorry. I just need to clariS'. Are there 2 units in 24, 1 and 2? Then there's Building 23. 1 anct 27 Aanenson' Those are going to be within the 300 feet or,he barn. Just so you know that tile ordinance states 300 feet from all structures and storage areas, not just the common barn. I have 5 barns on my property and that is shoxvn iii your packet. Blackowiak: So which txx'o units are we talking about? 24. So it's Lots 1 and 2 in 24, okay. I didn't know if you said 2 buildings. I;m sorry, 2 units. Okay. If I may add, I believe it also affects actually that manor home on the south side. That's only minimal impact but it's really that. Aanenson: From the barn? Yeah, I'm not sure. Can anybody find that? 200 feet. Yeah. it should be the first 2 units. The lb'st :2 units should be Lots 4 and 5 ill that block and would it not touch on 23 on tile nol~th? Aanenson: Those would be eliminated unless the other plan is modified. That would resolve the issue. Meaning I should, you know like I at one point was going to say that I was not going to go, you know that tile 300 foot to me, I was making a terrible mistake. I'm just telling you. I made a terrible mistake. I was not looking out for myself and I need to. I've included in here an ordinance fi'om the model ordinance fi'om the, darn it. Minnesota League of Cities. Model ordinance. I'm sorry. It talks about how different you know cities do not want wild animals and so on and so forth itl their cities. I'm just going to make this brief. They talk about farm animals and it's a model ordinance and it's been tested in court and so oil. Been able to be stood up. Farm animals shall only be kept in agricultural district of a ciD, or residential lot of at least 10 acres. Well unfortunately I don't have that. In size provided that no animal shelter shall be within 300 feet of an adjoining piece of property.'. Then v,'e go into, I talk about my background. About how I initially you know was going to go, I was trying to be a very workable person but like I said itjust isn't going to work out for me because I'm really cutting my own throat and this is the letter dated January 23''d that I do not want that condition added. I want it removed. I go into the Carver County feedlot management ordinance and by the way I will become a permitted feedlot because I just spoke to Rachel 18 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 from the Carver County Environmental Services today and she said there is no problem. I am a feedlot and that's the way it is and according to this ordinance, even though Carver County does not regulate incorporated cities, okay. They still go 500 feet fox' a residence in tile unincorporated parts of Carver County. Now I want to ask you a couple of questions. Do you think manure smells sweeter in Chanhassen than it does in an unincorporated part of Carver County? I don't think so. Does a donkey bray louder in an unincorporated part of Carver County than Chanhassen? No. What about a goose? What about chickens that crow? No. I'm sorry, it's tile same thing. So therefore I'm just going to leave that as that is right there and I'm going to go on to say that because I'm trying to be a fair person, and I believe in fairness, I've lived on that comer for quite a long period of time. That corner has been a virgin corner fox' as far back as I can tell, 146 years. I really believe that now is the time that we need to, that I need to also let it go because I really was protecting it fi'om everything that I could possibly protect it fl'oin and I love to see green fields and I don't want anything to change on that corner, but tile only thing I can protect is iny farm. And I aln, you know I only own where I live and therefore if I want Miss Rosie's Farm to be something fi'om the early 1900's, that's going to be up to me. And I can only do that and I hope that the people will enjoy you know v,,hat I call do. And I don't knoxv if this project is a vision fol' you, the City Council members but I want to tell you tonight, make it very clear that I do v,'ish Pulte to be in this city and that the developer, Dennis Griswold has worked very hard to be where he is tonight. I have actually been helping him fo,' a year and a half. I'm going to tie it up real quick. To get through the city and to try to make it as easy as possible and I really feel that this is something that tile city needs so, thank you very much. Mayor Jansen' Thank you Sue. Councilman Labatt: I've got a question. Susan, on this map here of your place_. Susan McAIlister: Yes. Councilman Labatt: Okay;, what's nunlber 5? Susan McAllister: Which packet is that in please? Is that the purple? Councilman Labatt: I can show you tile map. Nlayor Jansen: It was tile one that you did I believe roi' tile County feedlot diagram. Susan McAllister: I don't bare it. Kate, do you have it? Kate Aanenson: Sure. Susan McAllister: It wasn't attached so I'm sorry, I don't have it. Just a second. Mayor Jansen: Do you want to just come up and look at Steve's? Susan McAllister: Okay. Councilman Labatt: I want to know what buildings 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are... Susan McAllister: Building number I is tile standard barn. Building number 2 is the horse, a 20 x 20 foot horse barn. Building number 3 is a goat barn. Building nmnber 4 is a potbelly pig, ,,','ell actually 19 City Council Meeting- February 12. 2001 it's., the new chicken coop is going to go there. Number 4. And number 5 is going to be where I'm going to be compostixlg, you know dead animals and that you can do that. Don't get upset but that's how you do it. \\fell it is. Mayor Jansen: I'm really glad you asked Steve. Councilman Labatt: And I'm glad everybody knoxvs lie\x.'. Susan McAllister: ...be ill that building... Councilman Labatt: Proposed fei' what'? Susan McAllister: Possibly adding another building a~ some point but l'l]l not stlre... Councilman Labatt: Okay. Mayor Jansen' Thank you Sue. If anyone else would 'ike to address the council at this time, please step for~vard. Kim McReavv: Hi. Mx' name is Klm McReavy and I live at 2751 Piper Ridge Lane which is ill Minnewashta Manor so it's not real close to this but it's close enough. It's an area I drive bY quite fl'equently. Just to address some. I don't have anything prepared. I just came tonight because I;m concerned about this property and I'm concerned about the image of Chanhassen and I'm certainly not worried about the crime that was alluded to before. I'm not worried about the.types of'jobs the people have that may live there. \Vhat I am worried about is t{le increased traffic that is going to come from this level of' density of development. 5 and 41 is okay now but it's pushing the limits at rush hour and I just can't imagine xxhat all additional almost 400 units, so probably 800 to 1,000 people is going to do to that area and I know you're trying to alleviate that with the 78th construction. I'm also concerned with tile gateway appearance of Chanhassen. I think tile plan that was shown tonight was, the mayor, Linda Jansen mentioned the gateway area where the fountain and things would be ill the concept plan and the concept plan sounds great and I wonder what happened to that. My husband and I have only lived here fei' a year and I haven't been following this real closely until the last couple months but boy, I'm concerned with the gateway appearance and then also tile removal of trees which was another isstie that , ou had said ill tile concept plan that was going to be saved and I'm a little disappointed that those two issues which seem like a really big part of this development have both been pushed to the back burner to allow fei' more units and different siting of the units and I think that's unfortunate because I think those are issues that not only concern me but concern a lot of other residents in Chanhassen. I know that this propelly has to be developed. I'm not unrealistic enough to think that we can save the property as it is, although that would be nice but I realize that can't happen. What I would like is, in3, main concerns are again, I'd like those trees saved and I would really like a nice gateway into Chanhassen so when you come ill it's not looking like a Brooklyn Center or Brooklyn Park where these super dense, multi family units. You know and I have no problem with multi family. That's fine. I know we need affordable housing. I just want the first glimpse that people get o1: Chanhassen, £or them to think wow, what a great natural city because the city has done a really good job of preserving the integrity of what Chanhassen has always been. \Ve're not jumping on the band wagon of Eden Prairie or of Brooklyn Center or any'thing else where we're smashing all of our multi family right as you come in the city so those are my concerns. Thanks. Mayor Jansen: Thank you fei' your comments. 20 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Tom Green: Respected members of the council. My name is Tom Green. I'm Vice President of Mills Fleet Farm. Mayor Jansen: If you might raise the microphone a little close. Tom Green: Vice President of Mills Fleet Farm, Mills Properties. I personally acquired that property for our company in the early 80's and we acquired it after being encouraged b.y the then ciD, manager and the then mayor to come to this community. And after we started working on it, we did...the history. Minnetonka Inc xvanted to put an office complex on that corner. Chanhassen didn't xvant it. We wanted to put a Fleet Farm store there and Chanhassen didn't want that either. And noxv you've been presented with a project, in my opinion would be an asset to your community, and it appears you don't want that either. So xve're at a loss as to what to do with our land. We're in support of this project. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Just so everyone's aware, we will be wrapping up tile public comment at about I 0 til so we have time for' another speaker' or two. Rob Moschet: Madam Mayor, honorable council members. My name is Rob Moschet. I'm a resident of Chanhassen. I reside at 7006 Cheyenne Trail and I appear before you tonight in support of the Pulte proposal. Several months ago as a member of Mt. Calvary Church in Excelsior I became involved in a group at the church that has been studying the issue of affordable housing and trying to educate myself and educate our church membership about the problems of affordable housing and I've learned that there is a real problem out there. And it's a bigproblem and it's a growing problem. It's not going to go away and I've learned that one of the better ways to address the problem is through the concept of inclusionary housing. Tile type of concept that I believe the Pulte proposal addresses quite well. I don't have to stand up here and educate you about xvhy it's necessary. Why it's important that people who live in this community, excuse me, people who work in this comlnunity also be afforded the chance to live in this community. I'II quote the lnayor fi'om the Chanhassen.Villager article ora couple of months ago. After attending the University of Minnesota Extension Service forum when the mayor was quoted as saying, when resident hear about why it's important for people who work here also to live here and hoxv this will affect our economic success, we won't be able to expand out' tax base if businesses aren't willing to locate here because their work force isn't able to locate nearby. So you understand the importance. There are many different ways to address the problem. I know there are regional plans. There are statewide plans. What concerns me is that if we do not give effect to a quality proposal like the Pulte proposal is, if as a gentleman who preceded me says we are against every item of development on that property, something is going to be forced upon us. The problem of affordable housing is a large one. It's not going axvay. I read somewhere the other day that 40% of Minnesotans, and this is astounding to me. 40% of Minnesotans cannot afford the average 2 bedroom rental apartment unit. Noxv in view of the magnitude of that type of problem, if we do not act locally when good, well thought out projects like this- come along, I believe there is a real danger that other solutions are going to be imposed on us fi'om outside. Solutions that are going to be much less palatable than the project that you have before you tonight. As a resident of the city I'm impressed with two things. I'm impressed with the diligence that this council has shown in reviewing this project. I'm impressed by the diligence of staff. I've read the staff reports. They've done their homework. These are the professionals. It's time that we listen to them. Yes, there might be some tweaking that needs to be done but this is a quality proposal and we need to pass it. Because, and this is my second observation. And I mean no disrespect to the mayor's comments at tile beginning of the meeting when she read her statement in opposition to the Minneapolis Tribtme article today. Frankly I don't know what is fact and what was exaggeration. The fact is that that's the perception. That's the perception that's out there and if this council is going to turn down this 21 City Council Meeting - February 12.2001 proposal that has been itl tile works for a long time, that has gone through staff approval. It's gone through the city Planning Commission approval. Then I'm afl'aid that those people that are out there that are calling us elitist might be right and that concerns me. I urge that the council approve the project. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Jillian Berquist: Madam Mayor and council lllelnbers and staff. I'm sorry I'm a llless. I just came fi'om aerobics so I apologize. I clean up real nice so I look kind of like a kid right now but my name is Jillian Berquist and I just graduated fi'om the University of Wisconsin Madison and moved home and I love Chanhassen. And I read a letter to the editor in last summer's Star Tribune where someone was arguing against another editorial someone had wriuen about oh, community in the United States these days is just gone. Nobody cares about community. Oh you know, just belly aching about those facts. And this le~er to the editor said you know what? As Americans we have no right to bell>.' ache about the lack of community right now because the only reason people move anymore is because of an economic opportunity or romantic interest. And I polled a bunch of my fl'iends and we all kind of, you know that's right. That's xvhyI would move or this is why I would go places and all my fl'iendsjust graduated and that's where they went. Seeking those two things. And this writer challenged me by saying, if community's really impo;xant to you, why do we just move for those reasons? If you find a community that you've grown up in or a community that means a lot to you. You have a 10t of fl'lends there, why not try and maintain that community. Be a pa~x of that community instead of this idea well I just graduated fi'om college, I should go live in Uptown Fora fewyears and then maybe I'I1 be able to afford to move out to the suburbs. I'm a teacher, l'll never be able to afibrd to live here unless programs like this, unless proposals like this get passed. I love this community. I've grown up in this community. _You know someone was just talking about what Chanlmssen has always been. I think about Chanhassen and what it's been and I think of the bait store and Pauly's on West 78'~' Street, but I don't know how many of you remember that. But that is. Chanhassen is this inclusive community where I~can move back to. But right now there's no place in this town that I could afford, and praise be to God that my parents are not going to charge me rent for a while because substitute teaching is not, you know not paying that much. But I just would really encourage you, if community is important to us, to continue to pass this proposal and look at future proposals that are also going to allow people that this is impo;xant to live here instead of waiting for 50 years and assume well maybe I'll be able to move back when I have a big bank account, because I never will. Thank you. Mayor Jansen' Thank you. \Ve have time roi' Olle 1]lore speaker. I don't want to inhibit a~-~yone fi'om getting up and speaking is anyone has a real desire but if we can hold to one more that'd be great. Dave Hurrell: My name's Dave Hurretl. I live at 7460 Bent Box',' Trail. And I work for a non profit corporation. I think that there's one thing that really needs to be clarified because I have been a Chanhassen resident for several years and what really bothers me is the perception that's being played by people who have written speeches as if they were delivered to them that actually suggests that tile people of Chanhassen are against affordable housing. You knox',, it couldn't be fal'ther from tile truth and I think that's v,,hy I'm here tonight is to clarify that we're not against affordable housing. We're against density. And I think that it should be said that Pulte is a profitable company that's here to make as much money off the community of Chal~hassen as they can and if we allow them to build 6 story high apartments of any qualiu', if it gave them more profit, in my perception they'd do it. And if they could destroy more environment, they'd do it to build what they perceive as tile best in their interest. We're here to support the community of Chanhassen. We'll always be here to suppo~t the community of Chanhassen and all we're asking is that we re-look at the appropriate density. That's really the issue that I perceive is 22 City Council Meeting- February 12. 2001 density. And we're the people of Chanhassen, a proposal from the council should support the people of Chanhassen and not the corporate interest of those who are not a part of our community. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. If there's anyone else who xvould like to speak, otherwise I am going to bring our public comments to a close. I appreciate everyone remaining respectful as you did and I'm feeling inclined to actually respond to a couple of the things that were stated. Just so everyone has a clear idea of the proposal before us. Affordable means different things to different people and there is a perception, when we have not educated our community, that affordable means something that's suggesting subsidized or projects and it does raise a concern in residents when it's not properly explained. That is why this council is pursuing pulling together a housing forum. You heard tonight that I had gone to an affordable housing workshop. There are experts out there that do a wonderful job of explaining what it is that communities are trying to accomplish by bringing in starter homes. All we're talking about within this Pulte project, on the corner, not the entire project. We're talking about just south of the frontage road. because it is zoned medium density, you can build affordably priced homes, meaning starter homes. Your community, meaning your city, is not putting any sort of subsidy into this to hold those prices at affordable levels. You've heard me say over and over again that in3' issue with hoxv we handle affordable is that it doesn't stay affordable. We build these townhomes. They go out at market rate. They sell once at an affordable rate. The Met Council identifies this as a problem because you turn around and as soon as that townholne is marketed again, it's up above the affordable levels and we're not helping our substitute teachers. We're not helping the workers in our community. My concern is how do we put a mechanism in place so that all of you who are here and passionate about affordable. You know I'm passionate too about wanting to have homes that people can afford. Now we need to do something and have it be effective. And right now that's not being addressed. When I'm looking at this project I'm looking at a corner that does contain units that are priced such that I could go in and buy one. There's no income qualifying for these units. There is no guarantee that the people who need them are going to be able to purchase them. So we're rallying passionately around a market rate project that isn"t necessarily going to meet our housing goals. So I'm hoping you're hearing that I am not being ingenuous about this because it is identified as an issue by the Met Council, by the people who are trying to encourage affordable projects in the communities because they're not remaining affordable. So though I'm hearing what everyone is concerned about here tonight, we don't have a mechanism in place. I have already spoken with staff earlier today asking what is there that we could put into place as a mechanism to try to keep some of these units at those affordable rates? How can we qualify buyers so we know the right people are actually getting to live in these units? So I'ln going to acknowledge 3'our passion but as we move forward with this project we also have ordinances in place, and if we're going to step down fi'om those ordinances and those standards, I want to know that there's a guarantee that we're actually getting something that's going to be maintained because we can't go back and recoup what we gave up as this moves out of those affordable ranges. And as far as political debt, I'm going to go back to the concept review and all of the issues that I brought up. My position has not changed. The campaign has nothing to do with this project. This project could have coine through the system before the election was ever ovex'. This is nothing about politics and to say that it is, I think you may have noticed a void in comment fi'om the Longacres residents here tonight. We had one gentleman get up and speak from that area that I've never met. I have worked diligently with these residents to explain what affordable means and it has to be a message that we repeat that everyone has to hear because they're not against starter homes. When you start talking about the fact that these are starter townhomes, it's very disarming. There's no problem in that. That's all we're talking about in the project and I've worked very hard to get that message across and when that editorial ran today, I found it very disturbing that this was again being made such a divisive issue. It doesn't need to be. We have to work to make it so it isn't and by throwing it out there and trying to aggravate people and alarm people, we're not going to get this accomplished. We need to bring everyone together and I mean that sincerely. I had two of our senior gentlemen that I was speaking 23 City Council Meeting- February~ 1')~,, 2001 to last week. \Ve had a young man approach our table, tie was absolutely horrified at tile fact that we were talking about affordable housing near him. All I had to explain was it's not subsidized. We're talking about starter homes. End of issue. And that is all it's about v,'hen you get to understanding xvhat the issue is and I'm sorry to carry on at length, but I am disturbed and concerned that we can't have this issue dMde our community. And as we start looking at this project and it comes back to council and we start making comlnents, realize that the only affordable opening priced homes are on the southern side of this project and we do have ordinances in place that we instructed back during concept review, needed to be applied and we gave specific direction a year ago...be speaking to it. But 2 of us made very specific comment and you will hear us say probably the same things again. But I fippreciate everyone's comments. If anyone remains with questions when we bring this to conclusion, please call. Please e- mail. I would be more than happy to sit down and cover what exactly it is we mean and what we intend to do going forxvard. And I hope we have the same turnout that we do tonight at our housing forum because this would be great. I'm afraid we're going to hold it and we're not going to have anyone there so I hope we have this same sort of a turnout and I'd encourage everyone to participate in that as we go forward. So council. I'ln sorry. I probably took more time than I intended to but I do think there were things that needed to be addressed and maybe clarified. I would like to open it up for comments fi'om council and I already specifically mentioned from the concept review the issues that I for one was concerned with when it came through on concept and any discussion around those issues further would be appreciated. Mr. Kroskin. Councilman Kroskin: Yes, I'd like to go first for reason to be fair to my fellow Councilors so they know this up fi'ont. Even though I feel that in my study of the Pulte project and following it through various Park-and Rec. Planning Commission meetings as welt as council meetings last fall and winter and tile extensive study I've done oil this, I will be abstaining my vote today on this issue, but I do have some comments. Number one is I did Ill)' homework for putting my application in to filling tile vacant council seat. I studied the COlnpl'ehensive plan and also the 1997 survey. A couple of things that strike me as I went through that, I looked at tile survey and in the survey 61% of our residents support a tax increase for tile preservation of our open space before it's lost to urban sprawl. Tile reasons for people living in Chanhassen. 27%. small town ambience. 18%, the rural nature. 13%, the parks and open space. 19%, convenient location. I look at our park use. 70% of our community uses it's local neighborhood parks. 64% then also use community parks. And as I'm looking into tile comprehensive plan, you know one of tile things in tile natural resources and land use, we're looking at tree cover. Residential areas we're strMng for 50% canopy coverage. I also read tile minutes fi'om tile concept reviexv fi'om tile council. Studied them; re-read them and you know looked at some of the initial phases or, or the initial concepts of the Pulte plan. As a resident, the things that I'm concerned about are this. A. I know that tile council is the body that sets policy. Sets tile policy for the staff. It sets policy for our COmlnissions. The commissions don't make policy. If I were to be voting on this, I want that park space for the neighborhood park. For this development. I took a drive this weekend through Walnut Grove and went through there and I saw that there isn't a lot of open space. There isn't a dedicated park space for that development. The residents in that development have to travel across Galpin to go to a park. They're traveling across a busy highway. As long as I sit on this council I am not going to do that to any neighborhood. I feel that people should have and enjoy'the open spaces. That's what this is all about. I want the tree cover that initially ,,',,as supposed to be saved. I want that intact. I don't want to see any of those trees lost in this development. Another thing that concerns me is it is a gateway to our community. I would like to see, I don't know if we need a fountain on that corner but I would like to see that natural wetland enhanced. So those are some of my initial concerns on that side of it. From protecting our natural resources that our COlnmunity, as I'm reading the survey, feed are some of the most impol-tant aspects of Chanhassen. On the affordable housing side of it, I have my younger sister. She's got a doctorate in psychology. She lives in Madison, \Visconsin. They come here for holidays. They love 24 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 coining to my residence here in Chanhassen. They'd like to move back to the T,vin Cities. Basically they've, she's married. She has a son, my nephexv. They live in a $40,000 house. As they've looked around the Txvin Cities, as they xvant to come back because she wants to further her career. Her husband wants to further his career, I xvould love for them to live in Chanhassen so I can see my nephew all the time. They can't afford to live in Chanhassen. So that hits home to me personally and I realize the need fo,' tile ability of people to come into a starter home and be able to live in Chanhassen. I admire the young lady that just graduated from college. I know how that feels. I think a lot of us do. Wanting to come back to her comlnunity and live. I couldn't go back to Plymouth ,vhen I got out of college initially and buy a home and so I know what that feels like. However, I am concer'ned about the fact that ~ve don't have sustainable affordable housing. The day that Pulte's open I call xvalk in and you know, like Mayor Jansen said, I can purchase one of those homes. I want to see affordable housing going to the people in our community that genuinely need it. I want to see some type of screening to make sure that people that aren't quali~,ing because they make too much income are taking advantage and getting those homes. That's a major issue to me. I would like to see some guarantees fi'om the developer and some concepts fi'om tile developer, you know how are you going to help us maintain this affordability? I think the city and the county have some discussion that's got to go forward on this. I want to see affordability, affordable housing, life cycle housing be able to come into this community. And I'I1 close on this. I feel, fi'om sitting back and watching this, this has been a divisive issue. I'm not happy about some of the information that I've received on this. You know maybe if Pulte xvants to help out Chanhassen, if this is all about affordable as they and their individuals, even their realtor Dan Cook's been in our community talking to various community leaders. Religious leaders. You know pounding the ground on affordable housing. \Veil maybe Mr. Cook's realty firm will do this deal and take 10% of the original commission that they were looking to take. Possibly maybe Pulte will do this deal roi' 5% over hard finish cost and donate tile rest to help us subsidize the affordable units. I'dJike to see 30% in this development. See it maintain affordable. I think there's a lot of issues here that have to be looked at again. That's pretty much it. Mayor Jansen: Okay. thank you. Councilman Ayotte: I just love being called freshman councilman. And I can't remember xvhen I graduated fi'om college. Politically incorrect I am, I have a lot of friends in Longacres. Good people. This gentleman who comment about, from the church. I think what I want to bring out is that, because of the due diligence of a number of people in this room, because of the due diligence of people outside of this rooln, we have a better product with Puke. It's a better product. As I've been following this thing, traffic ability wasn't as much addressed as it was earlier. Now it is. In one of the motions traffic is being addressed xvhen it gets to a level D. Delta. I think that's a good thing. Tile infrastructure's beginning to be addressed. That's a good thing. Tile issue associated with tile number of students coming out of the 379 residents is not an issue as it was originally. That's a good thing. Nov,, we're discovering things. I think a little bit more issue on tile traffic ability is a must. I like Mr. Kroskin's comments about maybe Pulte giving some of it's margins over because I'm sure when they were beating the street they were looking in that direction, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. In terms of margin. I am concerned about green space. I am concerned about green space and the product's getting better. Let's address green space within tile constraints of ordinance. That's my only hard point. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Councihnan Labatt: Craig, you or I? 25 City Council Meeting- February 1 ~., '~ 2001 Councilmal~ Peterson: I'd be happy to go. You know I've spent as llltlch, if not more time probably on this project over tile years on the commission as anybody has so I've got some sense of ownership to it and I think that, I truly believe it fulfills a vision for what we set forth for the 5 and 41 area years ago and I think that ,,vas probably tile driving force in developing my thoughts fox' this project and tile affordability issue is really secondary to the fact that it's a good PUD. And you look at tile ones that we've had over the last 5 years, whether it be Walnut Grove or Autumn Ridge or Mission Bay or North Bay or this one, this is a darn good product. And staff has worked diligently. The park and fee's have voted for this. The Planning Commission voted unanimously for it. And Pulte has worked with all of them to get a better product and I think that is certainly commendable. A~id I'd be proud to have this development in the COlnmunity. Right now some of my fellow councilmen have spoken about green space. You know I clearly would like more green space but right now tile project has got 44 acres of open space. That is. in compared to 6 acres ill Walnut Grove. 5 acres in Autumn Ridge. 2 acres ill Mission Hills and 6 acres in Nolnth Bay. It's a big.., and l-hr tls to go back and ask more, I would sa3; is to some degree unreasonable. Linda. I guess I'm intrigued by the east side split that Kate talked about and I think that, as the project is presented tonight, that'd be the only question that I'd really have and I guess if it didn't raise the price substantially, I'd probably support that. To break up the building. I'd be concerned the price would raise when you start splitting them and this project is at 41%, it offers tile least affordable percentage of any of those projects I mentioned too so. So as you can probably tell by my comments. I think we need to move this ahead now. I think althouoh tile comments fi'om my fellow councilmen are interesting, I think it will unduly delay the project, if not end it by trying to get answers to some of these difficult questions. I think let's move ahead and work on those in tile next project. Let's . move this one Forward. Mayor Jansen' Okay, thank you. Steve. an31hing to add? Councilman Labatt: Oil yeah. Mayor Jansen' Tonight, Councilman Labatt: I've got to go to work tonight so yeah. I am in a hurry. Cmmcilman Peterson' This is part of his 3 minutes, right? Councilman Labatt: Okay. I've got several pages of talking points here I want to please be covered and quickly respond to the political payback debt I think is a gross exaggeration al!d I think it doesn't need to be spoke anymore. Thanks for responding to that Mayor. Some of our speakers tonight talked about the Highway 5 corridor plan and the Bluff Creek ordinance and how they're sound guiding documents they are. And I thank them fox' that. If we apply those principles in those doculnents to this project, they don't quite meet up 3'et and I'm going to point those out. The Highway 5 corridor district represents tile heart of Chanhassen as well as the dominant image of those passing through the COmlnunity. I'm going to take, these are all quotes out of the documents themselves. Development must be designed with a greater sensitMty to the environment and high quality. Okay. Section 20-1450. The purpose of the district is to protect significant stands of mature trees through the use of careful site design. Okay. And then Pulte's 3 designs, the one from 9-1-99 which shows the significant stands as there. And then the revised edition of 9-28-99 it's been cut a little bit here and saved a little bit there. And then we see today's version on the cover here where there's, as Linda you said, 50% has been chopped out. I think it's a bit more than that when I went into...blueprint and actually, let me find the. I'll get there. Bear with me. Okay, well I went through the time of highlighting the thing to show what's really going to be gone on this project and...significant. And I think that this latest rendition here is with one less spot. It's considerable. 26 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Mayor Jansen: Can we put tile originals up oil tile screen, just so tile audience can see what it is? Councilman Labatt: It's a small version. Mayor Jansen: Can I grab those guys7 Councilman Labatt: \Vhat do you want, these? May'or Jansen' Tile originals. Just so tile audience can see. Kate, v,'ould you mind putting those up on tile table. Councilman Labatt: The highlighted yellow area here indicates all the trees that are going to be lost with the big cluster of trees on Highway 5. Tile field row of trees and the row up on tile edge of the primary ZOlle. Kate Aanenson: Not to be disrespectful but I just want to point out, tile product also changed too and that's what we pointed out, and the open space. That's... indicated that was pushing it into the. Councilman Labatt: Right, I realize that. Kate Aanenson: This was your first one. Councilman Labatt: Because they're dated on the bottom right corner. Is when. that's when we received them. Kate Aanenson' ...tile park space, yeah. Mayor Jansen: Yeah. Just demonstrating tile changes to date. Councilnqan Labatt: Okay. So tile intent of the district, Section 20-1451. Consistency with all the provisions of the comprehensive plan. Preservation of the natural conditions found on each site to the greatest extent to minimize removal of trees. Okay. Does this project meet that? That's for each one of us individually to answer that. Section 20-1454. Architectural design standards. Monotony of design both within projects and between it surrounding is prohibited. Okay, we've seen the different projects and the designs of them. Noxv I'm going to cover the BluffCreek Overlay District, which one of the neighbors was very involved in. Section 20-1551. The purpose of this is the development within the corridor must be designed with tile utmost sensitivity to tile environment. Utmost sensitivity to the environmelm Protect tile Bluff Creek corridor, wetlands, bluffs and significant stands of mature trees through tile careful site design. I feel that Pulte does not meet that standard right now with the amount of tree loss. Encourage a development pattern that allows people and nature to mix, spanning multiple ecosystems. Development in the corridor should be ecologically designed and built around features such as trees, wetlands, significant natural features, should impact development rather the development impact significant stands of natural features. And that's in Section 20-1460(c). The natural qualities should be preserved. Does Pulte meet the standard? I don't think so. The comp plan. Both the 1998 revision and 1999. Colnp plan is a guide to the city and it's residents. It's a covenant and guide for decision making. Tile Pulte concept is in conflict with our comp plan... People of Longacres have been criticized for their dissatisfaction or questions about this proposal. Well remember back to the Marsh Glen development, those residents bought their homes over there with the understanding that the open space around there 27 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 was guided for lox'', density housing. People at Longacres, including myself, and I made that clear to Pulte on tile first meeting that I live in this neighborhood and they're well aware of it. That we looked at this property and the property south of the swamp, and what is it zoned for? What's the guiding on it and the guiding to the north of West 78'~ in this area is lox'',' density housing. Single family. Twin homes. So we made a commitment to the Marsh Glen folks okay, it's zoned that ,,,,,ay. You bought you homes that way. You made 3'our point. I just want to remind the council of that. As far as the parks and open space. The Park and Recreation Commission voted to accept the cash payment o.f$513,000 in lieu of the land dedication. In the early, early minutes, meeting back on September 1~t of '99, one of the residents also ' brought it up and said there are parks. I don't see much in the green space here. I'm looking at where all these kids are going to go on their bikes now. We're not providing them with a neighborhood park. We have a park system that;s going to need to be thought out better in this location with a few more residents. And the berming is a question that I have a concern xx'ith and the fact that, in looking at tile height of this berm. Kate can you help me. In trying to review tile grading plan. are they going to raise the elevation approximately 12 to 15 feet towards 5? IfI read that right, it was like 980. And they're going to raise it. Kate Aanenson: Yes, that's correct. Yes, I looked at tile developer. That's correct... Councilman Labatt: Okay. Okay. And then the plan is to put a 4 foot berm? Kate Aanenson: Correct. \Vith trees. Landscaping. corl'ect. In the EAW it also stated noise attenuation and that xx'as all issue fOr the Planning Commission. I just wanted to expand on that. Air conditioning units will be itl each, required for each unit and tile>' are supplying those. That was the standard and that was for noise attenuation. _ Councilman Labatt: Okay. 1 also have great concerns about tile traffic. Having lived ill Longacres now for several ','ears I know what it's like to try to get out onto ~1 at rush hour. or what it's like to turn into Longacres on 41 ill l'ush hour when you're going southbound. And fl'ankly I'm surprised tha~ no...have been huFt or killed there. At the turn off. And I think by putting in 379 more units, which how many homes are in Longacres, 190.o Kate.o Kate Aanenson: \Veil if you add tile two together itl Walnut Grove, it's close to like 300. Councilman Labatt: Well l'm just talking Longacres. I'm just trying to get tile 41 exit at Longacres Drive. Kate Aanenson: Approximately. Councilnqan Labatt: Approximately 1907 Kate Aanenson: Yes. Councilman Labatt: So we're almost doubling that and it's terrible getting out there in rush hour and getting home. Getting back in there and I can't imagine what it's going to be like at West 78th. So I have a great concern about that. And contrary to what some of our planning commission members feel, and it's stated in tile Highway 5 corridor, this is the gateway of the western pa~-t of the city. It's not a qum~ter mile west at tile Arboretum where there's a swamp and a sign that says \Velcome to Chanhassen. This is the gateway. Let's make it a gateway and take our time with it. You know Craig you made tile comment, unduly delaying it until xve get tile difficult answers to question could hurt the project. I would beg to 28 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 differ with that. I think we owe it to every resident that we get every answer, every question answered. And get everything cleared up so, I'll leave it at that. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. In trying to maybe bring eveiyone's comments together. One point that Councilnlan Peterson brought up as far as the parkland and the comparison to the different projects. One of the things that I had gone and taken a look at was because we have the mirror reflection of this project oil the south side as far as all application of ordinances, being both the Bluff Creek Watershed and the Highway 5. That project in fact has 48 acres of parkland and open space dedication iii it. And I guess the part that struck lne as tile most significant in that statement is that the city was dedicated tile 12 acres of high ground within that development to do again preservation. There isn't an active park. The city also applied $200,000 worth of funding to purchase an additional 11 acres so I'm looking at the aggressive stand that the city took towards preservation and open space because of the Bluff Creek Watershed ordinance and I don't knoxv that everyone truly understands the vision of that plan. And the only way that I know how to describe it is to say, is a reflection of what Minneapolis park system has done in their corridor. Their green space corridor for' their residents going fi'om Lake of the Isles down to Harriet, Calhoun. Down Minnewashta Parkway and it goes all tile way down to tile river valley so you have a recreational corridor that's a communits, asset that is being preserved in it's natural setting in the middle of ali of those homes and traffic. So that residents within walking distance as well as driving distance. I don'{ know if everyone else enjoys that area as much as I do. I like to drive iii there just because you can walk around the lakes. You carl go clear down the parkway to tile river. It's a wonderful amenity that they have that Chanhassen has adopted this watershed plan to have the equivalent in our community. It xvould be astronomically expensive, as it's been identified, if the city were to go in and ti'), and purchase this corridor. So tile plan has been to take through dedication as much of that corridor as we proceed down through the community. So this is the top of that project. This is the start of that vision and as I expressed during tile concept review, this project oil the north side of the frontage road doesn't reffect what I anticipated to see in that vision and that's that there is more ora community open space along that corridor. Along that trail where the community is going to be traversing along this wetland. There's a proposal within that plan that addresses actually doing a restoration of that wetland and by the time the community addresses and hopefully it's through our watershed district's cooperation with us, tile restoration of that wetland and tile big woods, you're looking at tile potential of several hundred thousand dollars going into just that particular project. $200,000 for tile wetland and an additional $150 was reflected as land acquisition. So as we're looking at these developments as they occur up against that corridor, we're charged xvith looking back to that plan and are we getting all of the pieces as we go along? If we miss one, we've missed all important part of the total. Of the loop. Arid yes, there's a trail there now. There's tile homeowners association actually keeping the easement up to tile trail, and what I envision is something ora conflict bem, een public coming through people's back yard areas. Tile community as we had Kate Aanenson come in mid do a Bluff Creek watershed presentation to the council, being that we have numerous new members, we all need to get up to speed on these visions so that we're not missing oil a major project like this. And what was shared with us is that oil one of the projects that came in prior to there being a Bluff Creek ordinance, staff had tried to...have homes inbetween tile public view and the creek side. One of the most creative PUD's that was drafted in this community was gosh, back in 1987. The whole Lake Susan Hills area. If you're familiar with the Lake Susan Hills west side of that lake, there's an open strip of open property. That was dedicated as part of the PUD to remain as community open space. It's one of the most fabulous community assets that that council stepped up and made sure that they protected on behalf of the community. So again there's the view shed. It's a community asset. As I'm looking at the parkland, I'm going to come back to the comments that tile council has been making and that we made back in the concept review. I would like to see the city go and work with tile developer to have that parkland dedication, and I realize that there are some potential concerns from our park department that they'd like to build our fees in order to be able to 29 City Council Meeting - February 1o,.., 2001 address maybe other community projects, and I can appreciate that. They worked hard on this. They're trying to COllle up with a balance. But in trying to accomplish that vision of that plan, and be consistent with xvhat we did on the south side of the road, I feel very strongly about making sure that we're protecting what we can through land dedication of open space prope~W on the northern side of this project. And there's 8 to 10 acres that ill fact xve could be working from to do that. There is a density transfer that's allowable within tile Bluff Creek Watershed Ordinance. So that density transfer, I feel very strongly about protecting the 11 acres that are on tile west side of the road. So that needs to remain in place. I don't see that as something that we compromise because that is ill tile primary corridor and it is part ora conservation easement. Even adding the 10 acres to the currer~t open space, and I'm not sure where tile total number came fl'Oil] Craig that you shared. I had a different number fi'om tile numbers that we had been given as fat' as open space and it wasn't even close as fat' as tile percentage to the total of what's oil tile south side. So because of what was on tile south side, I saw as consistent. One requirement to the next, north to south. So if what we're going to do here tonight, and what I'm hearing other council people say. Are \ye leaning toxx'ards giving direction to staff to go back and work with tile developer on some of the points that everyone brought up? Should we be coming up with our consistent set of points to direct tile project back? Any comments? Councilman Ayotte: Tile one additional point that Councilman Kroskin made about helping tis determine hoxv \\'e make sure we keep those houses as affordable is a point that I think has to be worked with the developer. Mayor Jansen' \Ve can make that one of our points to staff to \\'ork \vith tile developer on the affordable percent, of in fact go back and see what we might be able to do through tile county as fat' as qualifying buyers or if that's what you're leading to. So let me see if I can come up with what our common points \vere. and cel'tainly anybody jump ill ill miss one. I'm hearing that we \vould like staffto go back and \\'ork on tile park land dedication \vith the developer to get the full comtoliment of land versus fees. We're not taking land. We are ill fact just not accepting tile fees so it's not as if it's a burden on tile dex'eloper. It's not capturing tile fees. Councilman Ayotte: Is that a 10 acre target? Mayor Jansen: They would have to work that out because it is a calculation of population within the area and of course as you take land you end up diminishing potentially some of the units and that would be a calculation, correct? Okay. So we've got tile parkland issue. I heard everyone address the stand of trees on tile south side along Highway 5. Maintaining those. Working with the affordability to see if itl fact that call be a qualified buyer and what we might be able to do to also maintain tile affordability for whatever period of time. If you can work that out. That requirement of course only applies to the south side of the fl'enrage road because those are tile only units right now that are even within that affordability price range. So that's where that would be worked out. Councilman Labatt: How about tile gateway issue? Mayor Jansen: Thank you. And then we've got the gatev,'ay accent on the corner. Councilnaan Avotte' I'd like to, we don't want to limit it with tile comment about a fountain. Councilman Labatt: No. 30 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Mayor Jansen: No. We're xvorking out a reasonable gateway accent, yeah. If the fountain in fact is a complicator, within tile Highway 5 corridor study it actually talks about a wetland restoration and orchard and xve can let them work out those details. Councilman Labatt: I think tile point maybe wasn't, maybe I need to get clear with my rendition of everything. I'm not out to kill tile project. I just xvant a project that comes in and meets the ordinance. Councilman Kroskin: I agree with that. Mayor Jansen: Agreed. Councilman Labatt: And I think this call be ail asset to our community. Just bring it in under the colors of the Bluff Creek Overlay District, Highway 5 Corridor and the Comp Plan and tile ordinances. Mayor Jansen: And I think we all recognize that, and again I don't mean to discredit Pulte at all. In fact I probably should have said this sooner and I do apologize that I didn't. I want to thank you for tile xvork that yot! have put into the project. You know certainly you have worked diligently with staff. You've heard the comments fi'om the Planning Commission. Hopefully you're hearing us really just repeating some of the things that we emphasized a 3'ear ago during tile concept reviexv so there aren't any surprises amongst tile comments. If anything I'm hearing a good deal of consensus around the same issues that we did bring up tile last tilne. And I appreciate your taking the time and the effort to bring ill a quality project that in fact is compatible with Chanhassen and our residents. I'm sure you've identified the level of conlmunity pride. We will cOntinue to work hard to make sure that we're communicating the issue as far as this being starter townhomes. We will do our diligenc_e to try to make sure that we keep this down to an amicable exchange on your project. Again I think you two recognize tim{ we've worked hard with the kongacres residents and let me thank all of you for as hard all effort as you've put in to giving us comments on tile project. And trying to understand what it is that the community is trying to accomplish and if anything I have appreciated the openness and willingness on everyone's part to listen and really work xvith us on this. I spent tile last couple of weeks meeting with concerned residents and constituents here ill Chanhassen that have called me up all concerned over this project and I think we are all concerned about tile same issues. I agree with what Councihnan Labatt said. We're not trying to kill this project. We're trying to give the guidelines that we held as our goals a year ago that we lneet the Bluff Creek ordinance because there is a vision oil this property and this is a key component of that. That we xx'ant to see put into place and that will set tile precedence and hold to tile precedent as v,,e move dov,,n the cor,'idor because there will be many more developments because we're not purchasing tile corridor. We're having to rely oil development as it occurs in order to make that vision happen. And to all of you that have rallied around tile affordable issue, stay with us on it. You -know we need your voices. We need you to be involved in our housing forum as we're working this out and trying to figure out how we put tile mechanisms in place to make projects like this non-controversial. And they don't have to be. And it's not as if we won't make that tough judgment call. Actually this is an easy one. It's zoned medium density. It's zoned for townhomes and it's just simply going to happen according to ordinance and zoning code so it really doesn't need to be contentious and I think we're all committed to doing what we need to do to make it happen. So with that, have we given clear enough direction? Kate Aanenson: Can I just get a point of clarification for myself?. We have preserved all the land that was designated in the primary zone. What I'm hearing you say is you want to embellish that or look at the tree option so what I'm hearing you say is come back with a couple different scenarios. Scott Botcher: \Veli we've got a couple things first. One is that absent an extension of time. 31 City Council Meetino- February 1'> 2001 Kate Aanenson: Correct. Scott Botcher: From tile applicant which they are not required to give. Tile council will be put ill a position tonight to make a decision it. Or have a decision forced upon them so that's understood. Then at some point you'll need to broach that with tile developers before you take a vote. Mayor Jansen' \Vhy don't we go ahead and maybe address that issue now, if we could. We are at the end of the 120 days? Kate Aanenson: It's more than that. Scott Botcher: \Ve've had p~'evious extensions. Mayor Jansen' Okay. And we're looking for all extension Kate ofhoxv long? Do you need to work on the issues tha! ~ve'vejust discussed. KateAanenson: I think we can get it back on in 2 weeks, l guess I'd ask... Scott Botche~': I think you're looking more than 2 weeks Kate. Mayor Jansen' \Ve may not have a quorum. Ill fact we're still working on how many members al'e going to be here because you need 4. con'ect? 4/5? It's spring break. ScottBotche~': I'd go til the March l?council, isitt?? Council meeting. I'm guessing on tlle date but xvhatevet' that meeting date is. Kate Aanenson: Con'ect. Councilman Labatt: \Veil xvhen's >'ou~' spring break for Minnetonka schools? Kate Aauenson: Ap~'il. Scott Botcher: \Ve don't have spring break Steve. Mayor Jansen: Staff doesn't get a spring break. Scott Botcher: It's during tile Final Four tournament. No meetings during tile NCAA tournament. Mayor Jansen: Mr. Griswold, it sounds like we're looking at probably March 12tn then on tile issues that we've discussed tonight and I don't know if you'd care to step forward and acknowledge whether you would be willing and able to come back and work with staff until that time and grant an extension. Dennis Griswold: Thank you for your comments tonight, Mayor and council. Is that, I'd like to get a clarification. Is that the second council meeting that we would be. or tile third? Scott Botche~': That'd be tile first regular council meeting of March. Kate Aanenson: Right, it'd be 2 meetings fi'om tonight. 32 CiU' Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Scott Botcher: Correct. Dennis Griswold: Okay. I think that's a reasonable extension. Scott Botcher: Okay, thank you. Kate will follow up with a request to have that in writing in the morning. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Well I think we can put it together right now. Scott Botcher: Or you can do it right now. Or she'll beat me up ifI don't ask. _Tile other thing I just want to inake sure is clear, and I don't have a problem with the stuffin there but I guess Ijus_t want to make a comment to Steve primarily, and to Linda. We absolutely are trying to follow the guidelines in the overlay and the Highway 5 corridor district but understand that most the stuff that Steve read, and I didn't mental ticker, almost every one of those standards was subjective. And so understand that as xve go to apply those standards to this development, or any other development, heck tile 5 of you are going to disagree on the application of those so just so everyone is clear about that. We have attempted fi'om tile get go on this to apply those standards and iike's been said, we can, shoot oil developments that coine through our office Kate and I m'm wrestle over them in the office and that's just part of the massaging process so everyone's clear about that. I don't want to come back in 2 meetings and have you say, what in the heck were you doing because they are subjective to some extent. Mayor Jansen: And that is a good point to make because that does have a great deal to do with tile difference in maybe the acceptance as it came up through the system and what our. . Scott Botcher: Yeah. I mean even your advisory comlnittees wrestled amongst themselves and came out with opinions and comments and that's part of the public process. Mayor Jansen: Sure. Kate Aanenson: I just want to go back, thank you for those comnlelltS. Scott Botcher: You're welcome. Kate Aanensoll: I just want to go back to, so what I'ln looking at is a couple different scenarios. I also want to make sure we have preserved what's in tile primary zone but what I'm hearing you say is you xvant some additional, to continue that corridor. I also want to point out that our sewer project is running along tile edge of those trees so we're going to come back and show you some of that tree loss that's through our project to provide municipal sen, ices, just so you know... Councilman Labatt: No, no I know. Oil tile sheet behind the one I highlighted it shows which trees are lost to MnDot, to Pulte. Which ones are saved and all that so. Kate Aanensol~: Okay. Great, okay. So we'll show that and then we'll show a couple different scenarios, I mean assuming that's what 3'our expectation is and you know what, some different options of how the plat, where the park should be and get some input from the City Forester and that and preserving some of that. I also think, if it's alright, that we'd probably add the Markert issue. That seems to be an issue that was still kind of hanging out there. Tile implication of that feedlotjust to make sure we've City Council Meeting- February 12.. 2001 identified that. There seems to be some question on the interpretation of that, so we'll add that to the list. If that makes sense. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Scott Botcher: I think it's fair to give that whole; the whole issues the cursory review if nothing else. Mayor Jansen: Okay because, and I guess I just want to be clear, having sat on the discussion of the farm. I would be very uncomfortable encroaching into that setback becaus'e I do think we're just setting ourselves up for conflict with future residents. \Vhether they're in a townhome or a single family, and I guess I had taken that into consideration when we were reviexving that part of the conditions and realized that we were providing a nice buffer roi' any homes that would go ill anywhere near. Be they toxvnhomes or single family. Councilman Labatt' Is it possible on any of these maps to get that 300 foot setback. Kate Aanenson' Sure. xx'e can show that. Councilman Labatt: Delineated on some map fi'om tile 1.2.3.4.5 that she has on her map so we can see how bi,, that is. Kate AallellSOll: Yes. Councilman Ayotte: Especially tile dead animal one, number 5. Councilman Kroskin: lhaveaquestion. Oneofthecomments'thatCouncilmanPetersonmadethatI agree with is UnlaecessaD' delay, ls there a way for us to be able to view the. I don't know the procedure of this, the instruction to staff so we as council people can read that and make sure nothing's missed. Things that are impo~xant to us that we've N'ougbt out as individuals. Mayor Jansen: As to how this is proceeding between staff and the developer in tile process? Councilman Kroskin: \Veil just, ifxve're going to give new direction to staffhere, is there a way for us to kind of look at the summary ofxvhat possibly is going to be proposed here to make sure when it goes to staff, we've got all of our concerns, we want to make sure that all of our concerns are listed so we don't come back here on tile 17 and something's been missed. Mayor Jansen: Sure. Scott Botcher: I try to make bullet point items here and I guess what I'll do is I'll put those to an e-mail and then...and then I'I1 just ship it out because there's not, I've got what, 5 down here. That's tile easiest way to do it. Councilman Kroskin: Yeah. without tile Anna Kornakova virus please. Mayor Jansen: Good suggestion, thank you. Okay so we'll be seeing this back on March 17. You don't need all}' nlotiol~, or anything? Kate Aanenson: We need a motion to table. 34 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Mayor Jarlsen: Okay. I need a motion to table please. Scott Botcher: I xvould just reference tile, just for CYA, reference tile extension granted. Given tile extension granted by Pulte, I so move to table until March 12th. Something like that. What they used to do in Delafield is what he said. That was the official motion. What he said. See I'm saying that, just to help you out here. Councilman Labatt: So moved, right? Scott Botcher: Works for me. Councilman Labatt: Move to, given tile Pulte extension until March 12th I move that we table this until that date. Mayor Jansen: Do I have a second? Councilman Avotte: Second. Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that given tile extension granted by Pulte Homes, tile issue regarding Arboretum Village will be tabled until March 12, 2001. All voted in favor, except Councihnan Peterson who opposed and Councilman Kroskin who abstained. The nlotion carried with a vote of 3-1-1. Mayor Jansen: Okay, tile motion carries with a 3-1-1. 'Thank you very much tbr coming ti'tis evening. \Ve appreciate everyone's comments and thankyou for tile extension Mr. Griswold. We appreciate all your efforts in working with staff on this. Why don't xve take a 5 minute break so everyone can go ahead and depart. LIVABLE COMMUNITIES ACT DISCUSSION. Mayor Jansen: Okay, why don't we get stat'ted again. Thank you everybody for gMng us that brief break. We're onto poiut 4 which is our discussion of the Livable Community Act. We had gotten all update on all of the history and background of the Livable Colnmunities Act agreement and why it's in existence and how it came to be and how if affects us as a community during our work session: Actually Kate Aanenson is doing numerous presentations with us as we're getting all of council up to date on the background of these numerous big discussions. Whether they are planning documents and of course this case, the Livable Communities agreetnent has a great deal of background and history on it so thank you Kate for tile presentation that you did. The reason that we have it on the agenda this evening is that there was some previous discussion when we were first approving the agreement with the Met Council this year. There was some confusion between what exactly we were establishing with the 30%. And I guess as I'm fi'aming this up I want to maybe explain my viewpoint, if you would, and I can't speak for the rest ' of council but this agreement is an agreement between ourselves and the Met Council and at this point there is conversation that's occurring. The legislation apparently hasn't been presented as of 3'et. There is discussion around the Met Council desiring to make our goals mandatory. Whereas at this point the goals are strictly voluntary. There really aren't an), teeth in communities needing to meet those goals. The conversation that is occurring and the mayor's affordable task force recommendation to the Met Council and now to the legislature is that they feel that because communities are not stepping up and actively pursuing their goals, that they should be making them mandatory goals and putting some, as 35 City Council Meeting- February 12. 2001 they're saying it, teeth in tile ,Act so they call in fact penalize communities i£they're not meeting their goals. And the one thing that Chanhassen has been fortunate ill is that we have made stead:>, progress towards meeting our goals and we in fact are currently working with the Met Council on, what I don't want to be too premature mentioning but a project I know I'm excited about and because the other council people have talked about the significance and heard about the significance of senior housing in the communitT, I think we're all anxious to see the Met Council step up and work with tls on that project so we are working with them in moving forward with some of these affordable issues. So they know that we're at tile table. And that we're working with them on it so it's not out ora walking away fi'om the goals that this is being mentioned as a discussion. My concern, and one tfiat I'd like to maybe have us all speak to, is that with the Met Council now considering making these mandatory and potential penalties around not reaching them. if we focus just on the agreement. It's a document that has tile potential of having teeth ill it. If we look at that document as being a minimum so that it's something that is achievable. That we're not setting ourselves up to miss. Part of the discussion that we had during the work session and what Kate reviewed with us is that right now we are, we're well short of the rental affordable. \Ve're making the goal of having that be one of the housing needs that are being met. It's one of the issues that we've been able to bring apamnents into the community but because of the dollars and cents of it. none of them are coming in at the affordable rates.-And it was seeing those two projects come forward with 400 apamnents in them and our not getting a single affordable unit because of the prices, that I became concerned about our Livable Communities Act goals. If they're going to be made mandatory and we did our due diligence to try to get affordable units into those apartment complexes and couldn't, if we're not going back and reviewing those goals and bringing them down to achievable levels, we're setting ourselves up to be penalized by Met Council, though right now they know we tried. They know we tried. They helped us on one of them in trying to get the affordable units in there. They in fact . had to release us fi'om part of an agreement, and we did some shifting and negotiating, ill order to have the apamnent building be able to go forward. So they have shown some flexibility. They have mentioned that they will show flexibility oil this incoming project that we're working on currently, but we all know that those people turn over. And as change occurs and people are looking at these goals, if in fact they go back and they look at them and they decide they need to hold us to theln, if we can't achieve them. we're now looking at penalties. And I don't want to be unrealistic about it, and I'm not trying to sound a warning alarm. I'm trying to be as conservative as possible on a paper document that we're in with the understanding that it's just a goal. We need to re-evaluate that goal under the premise that they lnight be putting teeth in it and we might be ending up with penalties. What I had requested staff do and Kate, we didn't address it in the work session, was that if' in fact we only achieve 30% of medium and high density projects going forward. If they only have the 30%, did you share with tls. Oh, maybe you did. Did you share with tls what percent that ends up within the community overall? Kate AanellSOl-~: Yes, I did. We would be short 1.300 some units to meeting our goal, correct. If we only went with medium and high density. Mayor Jansen: So we ended tip at 18% do I remember? Kate Aanenson: Yes. Bob Generous: 17.6%. Mayor Jansen: Alld the minimum that Met Council is really discussing at all is :20% in any o£the documents that I've seen that where they're trying to set a minimum in communities to say you've got to at least do this. 36 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Kate Aanenson: lfI could just reiterate on that point too. I did get a voice mail from Guy Peterson who I hadn't talked to him but lie saw this oil the agenda. Jules Smith, our representative is also here tonight. We are way under the benchmarks and we explained to you itl that work session, we went through a lot of exercise explaining why our densities, why these numbers work for Chanhassen and we've always tried to keep it very parochial. But we are significantly already under the benchmark requirements but xve stand by those numbers and we can defend them and what we've done every year in our report is shown to the Met Council what we tried to do and they understand that v,,hen we go through this process, so by even going fiu-ther down, I mean we're underneath. Guy also mentioned that next year the Met Council's position, based on the new census data that they'll be getting, that they ,,,,,ill probably go back and look to the communities to re-evaluate their goals and see where they're at. Maybe looking at the standards. So I just wanted to share that. Mayor Jansen: So ill fact, and I guess I'm not cleat' oil how the census data would help with that as fat' as what we're seeing. Kate Aanenson: \Ve bare the demographics for your seniors. What your needs may be. May'or Jansen' So actually looking at it ill comparison to need. Scott Botcher: \Veil if there's a shift ill tile demographics of your community then tile)' can apply tile standards and the benchmarks that they wish to to achieve the diversity of housing and some of the life cycle housing that they wisli to achieve based upon the demographic cut that they make within tile different segments. That's genei'ally how people use the census data to do that. Mayor Jansen: So the benchmark could go up? Scott Botcher: Or down. Kate Aanenson' Or down, right. So somewhere between, but tile point he was making is that we are significantly below the benchmark. I mean at 30 we're not much above the 20 which is, if you're looking at the ownership, was between 60 and 90, which we delnonstrated clearly we can't meet that. Mayor Jansen: Right. Kate Aanenson' And tile affordable isn't the problem, and in my opinion they understand tile complexity of the rentals. It's not just Chanhassen. It's metro wide the complexity. Mayor Jansen: So there wouldn't be any surprise on their part if no,`,`, that we've got two major rental projects ill and potentially we only have one more apartment complex that. Kate Aanenson: Again, when we get a project in, you know we make tile calls to the different agencies. We call Carver County because we said, we want to disclose that upfront that there's an opportunity. We call the Met Council if it's a rental project. We look at those. We look at those opportunities to present those very early in tile process and so xve always let the Met Council know what we're doing and I think clearly as in Lake Susan Apartments, they understand why those numbers didn't work and it's a problem bigger than Chanhassen. So I think again, going back, my relationship, the City's relationship is in good faith that we're doing out' best to try to accolnplish it and sometimes it's just bigger than this city. 37 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Mayor Jansen: And I absolutely agree with what you're saying, and I know that you have an excellent relationship with the Met Council and it ce~-tainly has been to tile benefit o£the community. My concern is those relationships change with tile people who are in place and not meaning to reflect that I'm afl'aid that someone is going to renig on any sort of an agreement, but tile agreement as it stands right nov,, is more this good faith effort and were it to become more cfa mandated, I don't know how xvarm and fuzzy those lines then remain. Tile rental number that we reviewed tonight, and I had not seen that number >,et. That was tile first that we saw o£ it, certainly...that 35% just doesn't seem at all achievable at this point based upon tile high percentage of our rental base that we have in in comparison to what we still have to come on line. Kate Aanenson: \Veil we have a project that nobody cares to talk about maybe right now but the Lakeview Hills project. I mean there is ways to accomplish it. It's depending oil what our will and maybe that's a discussion for tile housing forum where we want to put out' priorities but'thel'e are some opportunities to achieve it. Scott Botcher: I think one of the things that a housing forum, as well as tile census review that Met Council, or Guy Pelerson referenced on behalf of the Met Council oil the voice mail tonight, is simply tile oppommity again to establish a new baseline as to where you are. \Vhat has been built since we negotiated these? What are the opportunities for meeting ce~tain things that we agree upon? And what are tile oppommity costs that we've spent by making the choices we've made. That'sjust what this is and .you know fl'ankly ill terms of the LCA. it's an agreement like anything else. It's a voluntary agreement but it takes two pal'ties to make an agreement. And I don't know what Met Council's position is and fl'anklv sometimes, and we do have a good relationship with Met Council staff and Jules, your staff has been very, very receptive you know to sitting down and talking to us and as we just talk about tile realities of economics. But when you stm~t to getting to discussions about Livable Communities Act and things like that. it moves a step beyond fl'ankly staff. I' mean it goes on a relationship between tile Met Council. The council itself and tile City Council, you folks. Yourself, and it's not Kate and I anymore. And I know. and I've shared this with Linda. I guess I just want to sa.',' this fei' tile record. I've had discussions with senior staff at Met Council about their legislative priorities and I guess if I'm incorrect Jules can stand up and throw something at me but their inclination to me is that there is lie legislation ill tile pipeline at all for this legislative session contemplated by Met Council to even ask anybody to submit. Am I close oil that? I mean I don't mean to make you. Jules Smith' That's absolutely correct. Scott Botcher: That's my understanding. Jules Smith: \Ve are not proposing. That's not ping of om' legislative agenda by any means. Mayor Jansen' And Mi'. Smith I would have certainly acknowledged you ifI had realized that you were sitting in tile back there. Scott Botcher: He's in the dark. Mayor Jansen' You probably haven't met half of us. Jules Smith is our representative on the Met Council. Jules Smith: Actually I was hoping that sometime when you don't have too big a work schedule to come in for a formal discussion with tile council so I'll get that on tile agenda. 38 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Scott Botcher: Give me a call. We'll figure that out. Mayor Jansen: Thank you for being here tonight. We appreciate it. Scott Botcher: And I didn't mean to put you on the spot and I didn't mean to overstep my bounds but I just want that to be clear in terms of, and I've been straight with Linda Ol~ this. To me, whether or not you have your goal at 20% or 30% isn't, to me it's not a huge deal. Mayor Jansen: Okay, and that's why I'd like to bring it to council to just see where everyone in fact stands on it and I appreciate your opinion. However, when you attend tile workshops or you discuss, I don't know it' it's just with you that you're not hearing adding teeth or going for legislation. Maybe they're just trying to spread that around at these workshops to put a little fear. Scott Botcher: Oil sure they are. Mayor Jansen: Ill fact one of the things that I noticed at the workshop where there were 200 people fi'om around tile metropolitan area there, there were only 3 elected officials and I was 1 of them. So if they are going to try to get this message across to elected officials, there is a pretty effective way of doing that and that's you start rattling and talking about mandating things that they're not going to fund. That we then end up having to foot the bill fol' and I do get concerned about that as a COlnmunity issue. ' Scott Botcher: And fi'ankly Met Council Comes under assault by all'sorts of people. Should they be elected? Should they not be elected? Should they be appointed by somebody besides the governor? Should they not? I mean, and that's sort of beyond us but I just think, it's a very complicated issue and we all need to be... Now whether or not you all; what you think is LCA is sort of Separate and apart fi'om that. but like I said that is a relationship that you all have with tile council itself via the written document. Mayor Jansen: Sure. So I don't know if after tile presentation with Ms. Aanenson that we're prepared to d'iscuss this tonight and reach a conclusion or if council would in fact like to review tile documents and information ful-ther. I'll leave that up to. Councilman Labatt: Can we get copies of your power point presentation? Kate AallellSOll' Absolutely. Councihnan Labatt: I'd like to get that and read that more and. Mayor Jansen: There was some good updated information ill your presentation. That was great. Councihnan Labatt: Some of tile questions that were posed about you know large tract landowners and they don't want to develop. That needs to be addressed when we lose 150 acres to one person. Scott Botcher: I think what I hear Linda saying, I think your gut is probably right in terms of where those numbers are going to go because of the land that's been used already. I think you're probably right on that. But again if we're going to try and quantify that, which I know Bob will ask about, how do we quantify this stuff because he is a fi'eshman, warm and fuzzy guy, I mean that's what that census data will do that. In conjunction with Met Council and we can make determination are the goals acceptable or not? Do we want to agree xvith these? And if we don't, we walk away and if we do, we do the deal. 39 City, Council Meeting - February lO_, _9001 Councilman Avotte: One of the other things I'd like for the record, but to find out, maybe do a little bit more fact finding to see why with tile construction of the apartment complexes we've missed the mark. Mayor Jansen: \Ve call get that quantified roi' 3'ou. Councilman Ayotte' Thank you. Because if we can go back to that point, it might influence how we go forward. Okay? Mayor Jansen: Very good. Anyone else care to comment? Councilman Peterson' Yeah. I think it's a reD'; very complex issue and I think nuniber one. I would personally like to have the right number there. If30's not it, then let's be sure what the number is versus sax'in~, ~ let's just =oo doxvll tO 9_0 rOI' the sake of going to 20. Because I think that could have a negative impnct too. Seeing a council change their goals unilaterally without going through the proper due diligence I think is disrespectful of the process itself. So I'd vote certainly to. or share my thoughts that we should get more information and try to get more questions ansxvered. Mayor Jansen: Okay, any other comments? Councilman Kroskin: I agree with Councilman Peterson. I'd like tile opportunity to read through Kate's presentation fi'om the work session so I can sort of get my arms around it and understand all the detail. Mayor Jansen' Sure. Let's do that then. Kate. if you can provide tls copies of your power point presentation, that would be wonderful. We also then of course do have the housing forum that we're moving forxvard with as f~x' as t~'ying to get that planned. Councilman Labatx: Any possible month that might happen in? March? April? Scott Botcher: \Ve have some serious scheduling to do tinda. \Ve have to pick a date. \\.'e've got a bunch of stuff. \Ve've got the budget. \Ve'll just... Mayor Jansen' I think tentatively as we were kickino it around, we were lookino_ at April or May. Yeah, as far as timino because we're also trx'in~ to time it around the community sut'vev that will be done Scott Botcher' You have a busy calendar coming up. Coulmilman Labatt: I'm going to Canada fishing in Ma3; so. Mayor Jansen: Tell tls your vacation dates. Scott Botcher: Do you want tls to COllfirm with Guy or other Met Council staff as to what their plans are? Like confirming the census thing. Do you want us to do any of that? I don't care. Mayor Jansen: Let's do get son~ething of a statement as to maybe where they're going and what they're looking at and their intention so that we do have something to direct us because there are numerous representatives fi'om tile Met Council that are talking around this putting teeth in it point of view, so I'd rather heal' it fi'om maybe Guy Peterson. 40 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Scott Botcher: I just you know, they may offer us opportunities or present threats. We don't know. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Scott Botcher: You know, and I'm the first one to say that you get into the last weekend of the session, there's a budget bill, they could throw something like that in. It's a garbage bill. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Are we clear on out' direction? Kate Aanenson' Yep. Mayor Jansen: Are we set? Okay. \Ve don't need a motion. That was just open for discussion. I did not open it up for public comment. We were going to try to go ahead and move on though. I don't want to cut anyone off if we have 1 or 2 people that would like to take 5 minutes to say something. Kate Aanenson' I would just make available, anybody else that's interested in that report is welcome to get a copy of that. Mayor Jansen: Oh thanks for mentioning that. I don't know if you could hear Ms. Aanenson over the speakers. She had done a wonderful power point presentation for us, gMng us all the background and detail and numbers and she just offered to be able to make a copy or, that for anyone else who would be interested in getting a copy. Okay, thank you. Then we will move on to point 5 on our agenda. APPEAL DECISION OF PLANNING COMMISSION DENYING THE REOUEST FOR LOT SIZE AND LOT COVERAGE AND BUILDING SETBACKS TO PERMIT CONSTRUCTION OF A SINGLE FAMILY HOME; LOTS 998-1000, CARVER BEACH, 960 CARVER BEACH ROAD, ANITA BENSON. Public Present: Name Address Bob Nelson Kermit Austad Keith Peterson 970 Carver Beach Road 980 Carver Beach Road 921 Hiawatha Drive Bob Generous: Thank you Madam Mayor, council members. As you stated, this is 'an appeal ora denial of a variance request. The applicant has a lot that is 9,000 square feet less than the 15,000 square foot minimum lot size. It's 30 feet less than the 90 foot lot width and even granting those two variances to comply with ordinance we need to provide another variance approval. Either from impervious surface coverage, requirement for a 2 car garage, requirement for an improved driveway, or the requirement for a minimum house size. The applicant has submitted a plan that fits within the setbacks established under the zoning district. It does require a variance to permit 36% impervious surface coverage. The standard is 25%. Staff has analyzed our ordinance to see what a minimum requirement is for a two story home. 30% impervious surface coverage does seem appropriate. Were the city to require that it be a ramble design to meet the ordinance requirements we would have to provide a variance to permit 36% impervious surface coverage. Staff believes that the applicant's original request is a reasonable alternative and we're recommending approval. Thank you. 41 City Council Meeting - February 12,2001 Mayor Jansen: When you're saying original request, tile one that's before tls tonight, correct? Bob Generous: Correct. Mayor Jansen: Okay. An3; questions roi' staff?. Councilman Ayotte: I've got a couple. First offwe did get legal counsel.and the description and I forget the section, 20-58, Benson does ill fact meet tile definition of undue hardship, correct? Bob Generous' Correct. Councilman Ayotte' Okay. Number two. A number of the residents have stated ill correspondence I've read that there was requests made of various people to see whether or not tile lot was buildable. A number of residents said that ill fact they' were told it was not buildable and I understand that we do not have an31hing in our records to demonstrate ctocunlentation to that effect, is that true? Bob Generous: That's correct. Councillnan Avotte: Do any residents have documentation to that effect? Bob Generous' Nolle that they've provided. Councilman Avotte' Nothing that's been provided. Ah'ight. In that particular area the percent of variances requested compared to tile other variances on an average basis, is there anything extreme? I understand that that area has had a lot of variances. Is that true or False? Bob Generous: Carver Beach was platted in 1927 so we do have a lot of substandard properties that are developed ill there. Not in this immediate block, but throughout the enti~'e Carver Beach area. Councilman Ayotte: I don't know if I'd use tile term substandard but ill temls of variance, there's been a bunch of thenl but not in that inlmediate area? Bob Generous: Correct. Councilnmn Ayotte: Okay'. And the recommendation on the part of the commission was primarily because of the height of tile structure? Bob Generous: I believe that was one of their primary concerns. That the size of the structure would not fit ill with the rambler and split entries that were predominant oil that block. Councilman Ayotte: And tile commission hasn't seen why Benson has proposed at this point? Bob Generous' Yes they had a copy of that. That 3 stol'>,. Councilman Ayotte: But is there another, is there another structure that's being proposed? Mayor Jansen: Hasn't it been modified since the Planning Commission say,; it because didn't the setbacks in fact. it now comes within the setbacks? 42 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Bob Generous: That was an original, a separate proposal done back in December. It was working with Habitat for Humanity for a 2 level home. Councilman Ayotte' But I thought there was another one since then. Bob Generous: No. Councihnan Ayotte: No. I'ln confused. Bob Generous: \Ve had the Habitat proposal and then this one. Kate Aanenson: Habitat was denied. They' withdrew. Councilman Ayotte: Okay, and so there's another one? Kate Aanenson: ...went forward. Councilman Ayotte: And the commission had seen tile other one? Bob Generous: Yes. That's the one that's in this packet. Councilman Ay'otte: Okay. Councilman Peterson: Is that the one that's been denied? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Bob Generous: They denied both of them. But the applicant didn't appeal the first decision. This has an alternative because they, the first one had setback variances that were also requested. This one has eliminated the setback variance request. Kate Aanenson: Habitat roi' Humanity was the first applicant. They chose not to appeal or pursue it. Councilman Ayotte: Got it. Okay. Kate Aanenson: This one was appealed. Councihnan Ayotte: Got it. Councilman Labatt: So the only, they're requesting a variance to lot size. To put the house on a 9,000 square foot lot, right? Bob Generous: Oil a 6,000. Councilman Labatt: Or 6,000. 6,000. And the lot width and lot coverage requirements but as far as any of the setbacks. Bob Generous: They comply v,,ith tile setbacks. 43 Git>' Council Meeting - February 12.2001 Councillnan Labatt: They comply with the setbacks. Thank you. Mayor Jansen: And tile decision then that really is before us is that, because this bas been designated a buildable lot, is this an acceptable structure meeting the fexv variances that now staff has tried to apply to this structure because as I understand it fi'om reading tile city attorney's memo, unless we plan on purchasing this property by making it a taking, there is going to be a building on this prope~%,. Councillnan Ayotte: Yeah, no matter what. The buy back, what would the city eat Oll a buy back? Mayor Jansen' I don't know that we want to be speculating you know where we end up there. I mean this is a buildable lot and the applicant has. I mean where the city attorney is going is that they have a ~'ight to build a structure. Councilman Avotte' But at this point it's either' that Benson builds or we could face a buy back at this point, or doxvn the road another buildable. Kate Aanenson: \\/ell there are a couple other scenarios. You could decide to give a variance to a different type of proJect too. I mean you could say we'd rather have a rambler and we'd acquiesce and give variances here if. there;s all kinds of things. This is the proposal that they have in fl'ont of you. You. have discretion to sa>'. Bob Generous: 30% hard coverage for instance or limit it to a 2 story structure. Mayor Jansen' And if we were to go to a rambler al this point, can it make the setback t'equirements? \Vhat you'd sa,,', it's a 960 square foot minimum. Bob Generous' That would be the assumption, it would have to be a L shape structure around the garage. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So if we were to designate that it could be a rambler, we're not now stepping it closet' to the neighbors. My concern is I would want it within setbacks so we're not expel~ding then towards the neighbors as we go to say a single level. Bob Generous: \\,'ell the ordinance says you get, minimum rambler size is 1,050 square foot. There's about 1.600 square feet in the buildable envelope. So with a 576 square foot garage and the 1.050 you're .just slightly over but. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you for addressing that. Appreciate it. I don't see the applicant here tonight, unless I'm missing her. Okay, alright so no applicant comments. This is not a public hearing because the public hearings were held back at the Planning Commission. We do have everyone's comments that were included in the Planning Commission minutes. We have all of the memos that v,'ere in fact addressed to us. If in fact anyone has anything new to add, if you would like to add something new, I'm going to keep it limited to 5-10 lninutes do we can get this accomplished and again, same ground rules as earlier. Ifxve can keep this focused on just the issue and keep everything amicable, that would be wouderful. So if you'd like to step forward and state your name and address for the record. Keith Peterson: My name is Keith Peterson. I live at 921 Hiawatha Drive and we have a sheet here of people in the neighborhood that are opposing this... I heard you talking about buy back. I don't know if .you have our letters. \Ve have offered to buy this lot for a profit. I don't know, do you have that letter? 44 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Councilman Labatt: Yeah. I read it. Keith Peterson: Okay. So and it is more than she paid for it so. Our problem is that we see it as, if this gets approved it's for profit. She's not going to live in this house and it states right in the code ifa variance cannot be permitted if it is for a profit so that's ,,,,,here we have a real hard problem with it. When the city tells us that it's not buildable, you knox,,, xve should have had it tape recorded or something, but you kuow how do you document that. Mayor Jansen' Appreciate that. Thank you. Anyone else caring to address tile council? I'm going to bring this back to council. If anyone xvould care to start with colnments. Councilman Ayotte: In light of the new information that I just heard from Kate and Bob, I want to push it back to tile Planning Commission. The reason wily I want to push it back to the Planning Commission is ultimately I think the Planning Commission should deal with these sorts of issues, one. Two, I'd like to see the research, more research on what would be proposed with respect to a rambler. Three, with these 48 signatures, I don't know if it's fully understood that if this council disapproves, that something's still going to get built on it so I thin it's got to be worked out with the Planning Commission because I don't think it's clea,'ly understood the implications of the situation. So that's where I'm going to go to push it back there so that all tile alternatives are discussed and understood and then dealt with. And I don't think it is. Mayor Jansen: Okay, because traditionallythe way that we have handled these in the past is because the Planning Commission has seen this project, we would be directing staff as far as the conditions that we would now be applying to this. If we're saying that you know we would accept a rambler versus a two story and if it meets the setbacks and tile variances versus sending it back to the Planning Commission to wo,-k it through. Councilinan Ayotte: That might be tile case but given tile fact that I don't think that tile residents are educated to all of the points and given the fact that there are other alternatives that haven't been researched completely, I still feel that the Planning Commission should. Mayor Jansen: I'm not sure what alternatives you're referring to because they're all presented within the staff report as to tile buildable area of the lot. . Cotmcilman Ayotte: I missed the issue with the rambler until just now. Mayor Jansen: It's in tile staff report actually, respectfully Councihnan Ayotte. Councilman Ayotte: I missed it. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Other comments? Councihnan Labatt: Kate, just to piggy back on Bob here quick. The review deadline date is 2-157 Kate Aanenson: I just got asked that. We can take an additional 60 days. What we would do is turll around and send a letter to the applicant that said additional information is requested. We are going to ask for tile additional 60 days. Councihnan Labatt: And then if she doesn't grant that, then where does that put us? 45 City Council Meeting- February 12. 2001 Kate Aanenson' \Ve have tile right to ask for 60 days if we have legitimate reasons. Cotmcilnlan Labatt: Okay. Well I guess you know we've got a document fi'om our attorney that says this is a buildable lot and we have choice A or B. Now what's going to have tile least impact on the neighbors? And whether that may be looking at t3 with having the 2 story or rambler on there instead, maybe we can look at that lot but she's entitled to build on it and we have to respect th'at. \Ve also need to respect tile neighbors position and that's where it gets down to minimize the impact on them. Councilman Kroskin: Well I agree with Councilman Labatt. I actually looked at tile lot myself and tile ordinance and tile variance for profit, I think if'you apply SOllle colllmoll sense to that. it's preuy much aimed at existing structures. You know you call park anything on this lot and you're going to increase tile value of' it. And again it is a buildable lot. Something's going to go on there. I guess I would be interested in hearing fi'om tile residents. With that being the case. what type of' structure tile.',.' would prefer, you know taking their concerns into consideration. That's it. Mayor Jansen' Okay. CouncilmanPeterson I would concur with Mr. Kroskin'sstatements. I don't really want to pick. I don't think that's what we're here todo. We've got a buildable lot and I think we call seek some more Feedback from the residents ~llat are out there and move ahead with that recommendation. Mayor Jansen' Okay. Right now you've got a recommendation from tile Planning Commission for denying a 2 stol'>', or3 story structure on this property so I'm of the assumption that we're not going higher. $o if\\'hat we're doing is coining doxx n t° a rambler, if that's tile direction, yOLI know. Councilman Peterson: I think tile problem though is that a rambler will be closet' because you're going to spread it ot~t. closer to file neighbors and I think if they were posed with that question? tile>' may not say rambler. Mayor Jansen: \Vhat l"m hearing staff say is that it will be within tile same setbacks that this structure is meeting, correct? C'ouncilnlan Laban: L shaped rambler rather than some flat, rectangle box. It will be all L. Mayor Jansen' Because I'm al\rays itl favor of as ilqtlch input fi'om the neighbors as a project can receive but I guess what I'm seeing is that the first option was not a consideration as far as the Planning Commission was concerned and looking at and having spoken with at least one neighbor on one side, and I'm sure I'm assuming he's probably reflective of the opinions of the homes immediately impacted by this home, and correct me if I'm wrong. Do we have the neighbor from the other side here? I'm seeing Wally here this evening. If we could, and is council okay with this? We have 2 homes that are immediately impacted by this project and you've seen the Planning Commission now has declined the 2 story structure. Is that the direction that you two would like to proceed in as far as if there's going to be a structure on this prope~W, and we're being told by the city auorney that there xvill be, is a rambler a be~er option? Is that the direction you would like to give council as far as the structure? Or are you comfortable speaking? Bob Nelson: ...no structure is the third option. I think ordinances are a little ambiguous. 46 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Kermit Austad: It will be all eyesore and it's going to reduce the value of our property. Mayor Jansen: Okay, well. Bob Nelson: You're looking at 12,000 to 20 some thousand square foot lots. Mayor Jansen: If you wouldn't mind maybe speaking at the podium for us so that we do have your comments on the record, I would certainly appreciate it and state your nmne and address for us for the record. Bob Nelson: My name is Bob Nelson. I live at 970 Carver Beach Road which is directly to tile west. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Bob Nelson: I also O\Vll the property v,:hich is a mirror size right behind that as part of the property that I have. So l've got 26,000 square feet and my property, Wally and Keith both have 12,000 in their's and now you're going to put a 6,000 because it's a buildable lot, which we were unaware of. You're going to put a 6,000 square foot lot in there and house. You're not going to be able to, a rambler, you know you were talking about an L shaped rambler. There's still a garage going to be built on that. So it's going to be a box. It's going to be a square. That's what it's going to be, and it's got to be a double garage. Mayor Jansen: And again, I guess the point that we're faced with is that because it is a buildable lot, legally a structure can be built on tile property and that is what we have been advised by the city attorney's office so our options are limited to gix, ing direction oil xvhat is in fact the acceptable structure and I certain ly sympathize with all of you. When you've grown accustomed to an open area next to 3,our homes and certainly this is all established neighborhood so it does make it even more difficult to accept when you've all been oil your properties as long as you have been. So I certainly feel the discomfort of having this occur and we're trying to decrease the amount of impact if you would. Bob Nelson: Maybe a nice triple garage would work. Just a garage. We've already made an offer to Ms. Benson regarding that. You have a copy of that letter with what our intentions were to do. If you limit her to a rambler, I cannot see a 2 story building being put in there. It does not fit into that neighborhood at all. All the other homes are ramblers. If you limit it to a rambler, it's going to be a small one. Very small. I guess that would be my suggestion. Mayor Jansen: Okay. To keep it consistent with the neighborhood. Okay. Bob Nelson: If she wants to build a small rambler, then let her build a small rambler. Mayor Jansen: And I'm sure you all realize that the smaller the home, tile smaller the value possibly as far as it impacting your own property values. Bob Nelson: That's why we're here now. Mayor Jansen: Tile more value that ends up on that property probably the better for your own property values, versus it being you know a smaller home. But I certainly understand what it is you're trying to accolnplish. I just, as far as propel%, values it's just something to take into consideration. Not that you want a huge st,'ucture next to you. That's not xvhere I'm going. 47 City Council Meeting - February 12. 2001 Bob Nelson: I understand. I know what you're saying. Mayor Jansen' Okay. Bob Nelson: But I think to be consistent with what's in tile neighborhood, one the lot's not in tile lb'st place so I guess if you have to build on it, you folks are the ones that are making that decision. We told you what we want. You're telling tls we can't have what we want so we'll let you guys make tile decisions and then we'll let things go fi'om. You know iFyou want to go back to the Planning Commission...because of setbacks, it's a 6,000 square foot lot amongst 18 and 20 or 10 to 20,000 square foot. It just does nOt fit. Mayor Jansen: And I ce~'tainly' identi~' with what you're perceiving coming out of the Planning Commission. They lvill reach a point too. ifa rambler comes in where tile>.' will not be able to deny, because it does become a taking. \Ye're now taking away tile property owners rights ifxve deny anything to be built on it. Bob Nelson. So what we're saving, you know what we want. You know what you can do. That's why you're all elected to your positions. That's why the commission is where they're at. You make the decision. \Ve're asking you. And we have to live with what you decide. MaxorJansen: \\'ell and l app~'eciate your feedback on this. ExCuseme. CouncilmanAvottehasa question roi' xou Mr. Nelson. Councilman Ayotte: Mr. Nelson. I've got a question fo~' >'ou. Do you believe Benson would enter discussions xx'ith you to possibly purchase portions of someone's property to increase tile setback? And would you entertain that and would the option fora larger home be an option? If the. Bob Nelson: ",'es. i-1o. i-1o. She already has talked to me about it. I've been on the phone with hera number of times. Mayor Jansen: ~And I don't know that lye want to do those negotiations. Bob Nelson' No. the back piece is not for sale period. So that's why you guys get elected. Make those decisions. Mayor Jansen: ,And paid tile big bucks. Thank you. Appreciate your comments. So I guess I'm hearing that council would like to have more public input to the issues still. Craig's shaking his head. Councilman Peterson: I think youjust got it personally so. Councilman Kroskin: Yeah I do too. Mayor Jansen' Okay. Councilman Labatt: \Ve'll entertain a motion, Craig go ahead. Mayor Jansen: Just a minute, we've got legal counsel wanting to. 48 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Andrea Poehler: If I could interject here. Maybe if you could since you can take the additional time, if you could table this to the next meeting and at that time you could have findings available. Councilman Peterson: I'm comfortable with that. Motion to table. Mayor Jansen: And that's if we're going to be placing a rambler on the property we need to table for the findings. Andrea Poehler: Right. You'll be denying the impervious surface coverage variance request. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Kate Aanenson: I'm not sure that they need to do that. Bob Generous: They would just put an additional condition that it would have to be limited to a rambler design. Kate Aanenson: I guess my question is can we make the recommendation, could this council make the recommendation subject to approval of the Findings of Fact at the next meeting? Andrea Poehler: That'd be fine. yep. Kate Aanenson: Okay. Then we'd put that on consent. Councilman Peterson: So moved. Mayor Jansen: \Vhat she said, right? Councilman Ayotte: Do the residents understand it? I mean that's not. Mayor Jansen: Okay, the council is putting a limitation on the applicant that this could only be a rambler style home that goes onto tile property, is tile condition that's being added. And now it would be going back to have the findings added. Kate Aanenson: Right. So it will meet the setback requirements and the impervious surface requirements. That's going to be the definition and we'll come back for findings. Bob Generous: No, they need the impervious. 36%. "~ O Kate Aanenson' o6¼, right. 36%. Mayor Jansen: So it will meet the setbacks and it will meet a 36% impervious surface. Scott Botcher: So it will be going back to Planning Commission? Kate Aanenson: No. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Everyone clear? 49 City Council Meeting - February 12. 2001 Councilman Ayotte: Yes. Mayor Jansen' Okay. And I think we had a motion. We need a second. Do I have a second to tile motion? Cotlncilman Labatt: Second. Mayor Jansen: Okay, I have a second. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Labatt seconded that the City Council approves Variance #2000-14 for a 9,000 square foot variance fi'om the 15,000 square foot minimum lot size to permit development on an existing 6,000 square foot lot and an 11% variance fi'om the 25% site coverage to permit site coverage up to 36% for the construction of a single family, rambler style home based upon the staff report and the following conditions: A building perlnit must be applied for within one year of approval of the variance or the variance shall become null and void. Sanitary sewer lateral connection charges, watermain lateral connection charges, truck sanitary sewer hook-up and trunk xvatermain hook-up charges shall be paid prior to tile issuance ora building permit. . As part of the building permit submittal, a grading, drainage, and erosion control plan must be pl'etoared tbr city review and approval. . The trees along tile l~orthern property lille are to be saved. Tree protection fencing shall be installed prior to site grading. Three trees shall be replanted on the property, at least two of which shall be located in tile fi'om yard. 5. Approval of Findings of Fact prepared by the Git.',' Attorney. All voted in favor and tile motion carried unanimously. Nlayor Jansen: Alld neighbors, I appreciate your patience with the system. \Ve certainly identify with tile fact that tile change is difficult and I appreciate your comments to help tls guide tile application so that it at least is a little bit more palatable for everybody. But thanks for being here tonight. I have a question in regards to everything else that's on tile agenda. Councilman Labatt has suggested that he might be deserting us at 10:00. Councillnan Labatt: No, I call stick around a little longer. I got it worked out but I've got to desert about 11:00. Mayor Jansen' Oil okay. We'll lllove along. Okay. DISCUSSION OF THE CHRISTMAS DISPLAY ON LAKE LUCY ROAD. Teresa Burgess' This is additional information that came in after tile deadline. I was not able to get it out. The first one in that larger packet is the e-mail that I sent to councilrnembers. The remainder is other comments fi'om tile property O\Vller. And then I also have a typed up,..information fi'om tile 50 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 deputy. And I won't go through tile comments from tile property o~vners. They're very similar to the ones that we've received previously. We have received comments both in support and in opposition to the Christmas display. We are not here to discuss those this evening, but we did request comments just for council information. What xve're here to discuss this evening is the 5 violations that have been listed out ill the staff report and I'll run through those very quickly for those people that haven't seen them. The first one is that parking is prohibited on both sides of Lake Lucy Road. The display is designed. Mayor Jansen: Excuse me. Could you pull the microphone just a little closer for us, I'd appreciate it. Teresa Burgess: The display is designed to encourage drivers to actually stop and get out of the vehicle and the property owners actually provide treats on certain evenings encouraging people to get out, come visit Santa Claus, have sonic hot cocoa and in doing that we do have people parking on Lake_Lucy Road. Loud speakers are used to play music and when I say loud speakers I don't want to imply that this something like a car lot. It's not. It is much smaller than that but they are loud speakers. They do fall under the requil'enlel~t of our ordinance. They do not have a perlnit for those. Portions of the display are on city right-of-way and I do have tile pictures. You also received them in .-,,our packet. We'll go through those real quick just so you can see exactly tile concern re'ea. Tile signage that was put up this year was put up by tile property owner. It does meet tile MMUTCD, and I apologize for using the jargon in the report. That is tile Minnesota Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices. It didn't catch it when I wrote the report. Nobody called and asked me what it was. The display is in violation of the city's light ordilmnce. There are several locations in the city code that do address light ordinance. And then also tile display is in violation of the setback variance to tile fi'ont yard setback. And I hope all the planners didn't leave because if you have questions on that, I do have to defer to thein a little bit. Just to go through real quickly. The pictures that I have, and call you put those up on the screen? It's okay because I brought hard copies just in case. There you go. This is coming froln tile west side as you approach tile property. And you call see right ill here, it's difficult to see I know on this screen but this is the start of the display. This yellow sign right here is actually a sign that shows, it says hidden driveway. And we only put these up when there's a severe visibility problem. It just goes to show that there is a problem out in this area. This is approachillg fi'om the west, and this is the area where the right-of-way concern, is a severe concern for it. These two posts right here were installed by the property owner to light this section of the display. This section of the display is actually on the right-of-way. The biggest concern are these two posts. They are sunk into tile ground and the property owner told us he could not remove them because they are so securely installed at this point and with the fi'ozen ground, he cannot get theln out unless he cuts them off at the ground. This is a concern for traffic. If we were to have a vehicle go errant and hit one of these, l'ln sure Councihnan Labatt has seen an unfortunate number of these in his profession. The city would be liable for placing, for allowing the placement of a structure in the right-of-way that was struck by a vehicle. It also causes problems for snow removal and the city is responsible for snow removal although the property owner has done a lot of snow removal in this area to maintain access to his display. This is just a close up of some of the additional parts of the display and you can see how it does encourage people to get out of their vehicle and come up and look at it. The other thing I'd like the council to note is how close, this is the curb line right here and I've actually been out there a number of tilnes and seen people standing about right here to be able to see this display. They cannot get off the road and see the display. They're standing in the street as they look at the display and you can't see it from a nloving vehicle. You can see the detail in this display. And so it is a severe safety concern to have, in the evening I was there the child that was standing here was probably about 7. And that child was still standing there when I came back the other direction so they had been standing there, if you've been by this, it takes about 20 minutes to go by and come back. And that child was there when I came through the first tinle and there xvhen I came back. This is just some more detail on the display. Again you can see the alnount of detail that's encouraging people to come in. You can see the amount of detail 51 City C'ouncil N/Ieeting- February 12, 2001 in the back that you can't even see fi'om your vehicle. If you want to see this, you do have to get out of your car. And this is coming up on the end of the display. This is the tail end of the prope~1y. And just a close-up of exactly what that is. That is in a nutshell the display. We tried to take night pictures just so people could see what the traffic looked like and unfo~unately those pictures did not turn out. With all of the headlights and the lights fi'om the display, what we ended up with was just a white glare across the entire thing. And we could not get good pictures of that. However we did ask the deputies for feedback. We also asked our CSO to spend some time out on this site and to give us some feedback. And real quickly, we didn't receive a lot of complaints this year. We did receive a number of calls for the noise. We received a lot of calls for parking problems, where people were parking in private driveways. Those are not listed here. The complaints that are listed here on specific evenings regarding specific items. At one time the deputies made a comment that they had seen 30 to 35 vehicles parked in the area. A mix of pedestrians and motorists passing by slowly. Parked vehicles, etc. We've also heard fi'om the deputies that there are children in the road. Parents with strollers, etc and then you'll also see a couple of comments fi'om prope~xy owners in there. What we're asking the council this evening, and the reason we're brin~in,, it back to council is we were ziven, and when I say we. I mean city staff because I obviously was not here. XYe were given direction at one point verbally to look the other way on some of these violations. Now at the time this was a much smaller display and the violations were not nearly as severe. At that time the real concern was the parking on Lake Lucy Road. Last year when this issue came up, Sco~ Botcher, the former Mayor Nancy Mancino and myself met with the prope~xy owners. We discussed the parking issue and the pedestrians on the road and felt that it was important that we at least issue a parking permit allowing people to park because they do park. At that time the council did authorize a parking permit for this prope~Xy during the Christmas season. Since that time these other issues have come up fi'om other depmgments that they started to approach me and say there are these other' violations that we have not pursued. None of the siving council members were pa~2 of that council that directed us verbally to look the other way. We're asking for your direction on how should we approach these? Should we ask the property owners to go through the process and to get approvals on these items? Should we be looking at these, we'd like to do it now so we can approach the prope~xy oxvners and make sure that they are having plenty of time to address this because this is a display that is looked forward to every year by a large population. People come fi'om miles around to come and see this and we want to make sure that we are not stopping something that is a good thing. We just want to be able to make it fit into our community and meet our current ordinances. X¥ith that I will turn it back to the council and answer any questions. Nlayor Jansen: Thank you. I appreciate that. \Vhy don't we go ahead, if the Kendall's would like to make a statement at this point. This is not a public hearing and we have certainly appreciated the large amount of response that we did get out of the neighborhood as far as providing tls with written comments and we certainly would like to encourage that again this stays as to the point and to the issues as possible. We realize that it's turned into again, a rather emotional and passionate issue for the neighbors and we ce~xainly can appreciate that and identify with it but xvith that. if you'd like to go ahead and share your comments with us, you're welcome to at this time. If you'd state your name and address for the record please. Bob Kendall: I'm Bob Kendall. 1645 Lake Lucy Road. I'm responsible for the Christmas display. Mayor Jansen' And we appreciate it. Bob Kendall' \Veil thank you. I wish I wasn't here tonight but. Mayor Jansen' All, all, please. I didn't mean to cause my own uproar, but thank you. 52 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Bob Kendall: It's unfortunate. It has been sensitive but it does bring a lot of glory to people. I don't know if all of you have been there. If you get to spend time there. If you're there momentarily for a few minutes or you're there for 3 or 4. Some people can spend an hour and a half there. I don't knoxv ifI should tell you that or not but we're going to. Some of the issues that come up on the road with the city ordinances I'm aware of. After we have discussed them. One was the poles. Next year I'm going to move the poles back. If it's an issue with safety. One other direction I have with the council is that ifI have poles there and I don't have any problem moving the poles back, but what do we do with mailboxes? What do we do with other obstructions that are on roadside tfiat we're concerned about getting hit? Those are, you know, other buildings the bear house. Those have been all set back. I think they're very, very close to the setback line and those issues. I do plow the road. I keep the road clean. I keep it curb to curb. I go from Yosemite almost to the top of the hill, especially when we got a lot of snoxv. Went all the xvay to the top of the hill, all the way up to Whitetail Dove and all the way around the comer. And I've also cleared that comer out well so you can park on the road and try to have decent safety there. I think a lot of people saw the new signs that were put up this 3,ear with the cones. We did a lot of verbiage on the west side coming around the curve. There was 6 signs on that side. Then we went to barricades. If the city's worried about pertinent of safety there, I agree we shouldn't have any parking there. I don't think we should have parking in front of the display. I don't think we should have parking across Craig and Deanna's yard and to the neighbor's other concern about the blocking of the driveway. I don't think the neighbors should have people turning around in their driveway. That's something else I'd like to address. I can verbiage that. I can verbiage it so that if someone wants to turn around in the driveway, you can get a ticket. I don't know how and where all these people are going with that though but. Regarding trying to get the posts out. Jeff contacted me after the city talked to them. He said you need to move the posts. I said okay. 1 said if you told me this a couple weeks earlier before we got all the snow and the fi'ost in the ground with people trampling the frost into the ground, I probably would have been able to remove them but there was a liard chance that they were ever going to come out of the ground at that time. Not to say that the stakes were going to come and go put up on top of the hill. And to say to further motion, I lnean to put that into more. I talked to Teresa on the phone about the accessory setbacks. I mean I had the display up, I don't know what exactly date it was, but the display was already up. I ah'eady had snow pack. I had ever3rthing going as it was. Steve, or Jeff at your CSO mentioned it to me once. Keith Walgrave was there once and he said not to worry about it. He's one of yom' deputies at Carver County. I also would possess that the safety of the road with the traffic being on it's calmest, and also with the Deputy Keith Walgrave that has spent !~ours there with his dog over seeing this display this 3,ear, to find out and comment to him where he thinks these people are standing in the middle of the road. Where they're dashing out of their cars, because it does not happen. And I've spent many hours on the road. There is a concern, but I think some of the neighbors that drive by see certain things at particular times and you know if they are slowed down, that traffic is almost to a halt. I've talked to Mark a little bit about it previously. If you want to put the no parking zone on the street and not give me, you know the happiness to put out a Christmas display, I think you've going to have even worst problems with traffic. I mean I talked to Inver Grove Heights. They have a big Christmas display. It's many houses. There's not ever house participates, but do you want traffic backed up from 17 to 1177 Even this year the traffic moved and I was up there on weekends on the heavy nights to make sure the traffic kept on going. To make sure the traffic wasn't in the driveways for the people too so. I'm totally not prepared but I appreciate, you know the issues I'm always willing to deal with. There's a lighting ordinance. I don't know if we even got into that. I never even knew about that ordinance. Nancy Mancino, the previous mayor said that I was supposed to get an invitation to give my voice on it. Evidently 2 neighbors got their opinions on it. I did not. Commenting on violations that they've been there for, I mean the display's gotten larger and larger. I think we added 2 buildings, Keebler House, 53 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Choir House, and Santa Claus House, and there were some detail ill the display but that's what makes this whole thing go. I could keep going. Mayor Jansen: Okay, tell you what. Can I ask you some questions and we'll also have council maybe pose a couple to you. Bob Kendall: Yes. Mayor Jansen: I certainly. I auess I want to start out by savino I'm sure tliat on behalf of the community we all appreciate the effort that you put into your property and the significance of the display and you know the contribution that you make to Christmas. With the efforts that you put in. I hope that in whatever we do accomplish here this evening that it's not perceived by yourself as our wanting to necessarily put a burden on you. I think you've spoken with a couple of us nov,,' and you've acknowledged our concerns that at this point there seems to need to be some il'lore amicable agreement reached with the people who are tile most impacted on a nightly basis. So that people who do journey into the community to witness youF display once, twice, three times in a season, that they can continue to do that and enjoy it and that it's not burdensome on everyone but, you know please don't take whatever we end up accomplishing here with you this evening to be a slam on the wonderful job that you're doing with that display. Now, one of the things that )'ou addressed as far as Femoving the poles. I'm hearing you say you'Fe fine with doing that and I'm sure come next year it's not something then that you would need to be repeating. I'm heaFing you committing to pulling them out this year and respecting the right- of-xvay and the setbacks then for next year. That sounds like that's amicable to you. Bob Kendall: Yes. Max'of Jansen: Okay. The other point that the lighting oFdinance that >'ou mentioned here at the end-of the discussion. That was a general residential lighting oFdinance that was put into place. It is community wide and we in fact have a community wide industrial/commercial ordinance. In Fact our envil'onmental commission has been very active in addressing light pollution and they've been printing articles in tile Villager and trying to raise all of our awareness of the night skF, and not to say that you're tile major impact on that, but what we discovered then was that we don't really have anything even within our residential areas to be able to do all,,,, soft ora control on the lighting there. In Fact your issue with your neighbors as we've been reading through all of the comments, is that our 11:00 within our ordinance is still too late for them because of the impact of the lights on their holnes. I know you've had some discussion with them on the potential of being able to shut them off by 10:00. Is that something £or next year that, I mean our ordinance isn't going to control you on that and a lot of these people are seeming to be disrupted more by the hour than by tile existence of the lights. Bob Kendall' Okay, just let's go back to tile neighbors now since this has all came about I've made more effoFt tO talk to my neighbors. Deanna across the street, as you will see, the reflection of letters that you received and the comments within it. Mayor Jansen: If we could maybe not be overly specific because we do have a, you know I was logging how many and each one of the categories and there's a breath, and it was more the hour of the operation. Bob Kendall' \Ve agree, yeah. I have talked to Craig and Deanna. 10'00 is fine. They were fine with 11'00 on the weekends. I also talked to Sandy and we were going to try to shut the display down on the 7th. Regarding the sound, which I don't think we really talked too much about. I wasn't aware, they're just computeF speakers with a headset driving them. One night they were a little loud but I guarantee you 54 Cit)' Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 that I xvill keep those down to a fiJll minimum and I will go with the sound ordinance to keep those off when need be. Mayor Jansen: Okay. And I guess that's where I'm going with my questions and I'll open it up to the rest of council. I'm getting the sense offofyou that though xve have ordinances, that we do need to direct staff because of the liability issue with the city, we will need to direct them to do the enforcement. But it doesn't seem as though within the guidelines of what you need for your display that we're necessarily inhibiting what you xvant to do. Probably the biggest issue that we're going to need to deal with council at some point, and staff, xvill be this whole parking versus trdffic issue. And I guess we end up putting that back xvith yourselves and the deputies as to enforcement and how you would handle that. Teresa Burgess: Madam Mayor, ifI could. I wish that one of the planners could have stayed for this part but tire, lily notes according to tire zoning code violation, the setback variance, that is 30 foot fi'ont yard setback fi'om the property line. Not from tile curb line. That is a significant setback. You're talking allnost 40 feet fi'om the curb. I'm not sure that. Bob Kendall: From the curb or fi'om tire center line? Teresa Burgess: From the curb. You're talking 30 feet from the property line and we own approximately in the right-of-way approximately 10 feet fi'om tile curb so you're talking ahnost 40 feet fi'om the curb line that you're going to be set back. So I'd just like to point that out so that tire prope~W owner is aware. That is why we're bringing it to you now so that if we are directed to enforce these ordinances, tire property owner lias sufficient time to prepare an application and go through the Planning Commission process to get that variance is tire>, desire to do. so. Councilman Labatt: That's for an accessory structure? Teresa Burgess: An accessory structure which with nly notes, it says whether temporary or perlnanent in character and so that would be, those structures that they do have out there for the Christmas display would qualify as an accessory structure according to my discussions xvith the planning department and also with Roger Knutson who is out of town and Andrea is here this evening. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Thank you for mentioning that. So that would need to be worked out then between the applicant and planning department. Teresa Burgess: And that is someplace where the council will have, or the Planning Commission will have as this comes through as a variance, if the property oxvner chooses to apply for one, that is a place that conditions can be applied for the hours. Our ordinance does say 11:00 p.m. but this is an area where if they choose to do that, this is a place where they council could address some of those issues and place some limitations requesting and formalizing that negotiation with the property oxvners instead of leaving it to, as was done this year, the property owners were requested to make some changes by their neighbors but it was never formally stated by the city that it was a requirement. Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Andrea. Andrea Poehler: Mayor Jansen if I could interject here as well. I don't know if you're hearing me or not. Te,'esa had raised one point xvith me earlier Thursday or Friday of last week that I've looked into as well and that is a concern about the display being located in the public right-of-way and the fact that we may have some issues there regarding tile establishment of religion clause. 55 City Council Meeting - February 12,2001 Councilman Ayotte: Establishment of v,,'hat? Andrea Poehler: Religion clause and that we could have a concern about violating that. Where you're allowing, or in essence you may be perceived as supporting a religious display in the public right-of-way, 3'et if somebody else came to put something in the same right-of-way you would possibly be excluding them. So there are some issues. Mayor Jansen: Interesting facet, okay. Alright, thank you for mentioning that. Council. does anyone have any additional questions for Mr. Kendall while we have him at the podium? Councilmal~ Labatt: ...I do app~'eciate it and my kids do and my wife does so. How many years have you been doing this? Bob Kendall' At my presel~t home? COUllcilman Labatt: At your present home. I know you moved there fi'om. Bob Kendall' 4 years. Well this xvill be 5 years. Councilman Labatt' Your fifth year. Bob Kendall: 6vearresident. Councilman Labatt: So 1996 appl'oximately'? Bob Kendall: Correct. Councilman Labatt: Okay. And have you ever observed a tralTlc accident in fl'oat of?ur place? Bob Kendall' No. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Have vou ever observed a pedestrian get hit? Bob Kendall' No. Councilmal~. Labatt: Okay. Teresa, as far as our light ordinance. \Vl~_el-~ was this last revision was 7-25 of 2000? Teresa Burgess' I believe so. I was not involved in tlm actual light ordinance adoption, but the last cop>' I have is... Councilman Labatt: Last summer. And I recall in discussions of that that we have, as a city, Lake Ann and Bluff Creek Rec Center, they're also in violation. Tel'esa Burgess' Correct. And in this case we are simply asking For direction. Mayor Jansen: Those aren't of this. 56 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Scott Botcher: I don't know if that's true or not. Teresa Burgess: That's a different situation though. This is residential. It's an interim use. Councihnan Labatt: It's a different zone but it's, well okay. It's a different zone but. Teresa Burgess: And to be honest, the lighting is only one of many issues in this case. If it was the only issue we would simply be discussing with the Kendall's you're in violation and you need to work with us. Because it is so many issues, we're bringing it to the council for direction. Past verbal direction has been to ignore the violations. We're asking council do you want us to continue to do that? Do you want tls to work xvith the property owners to get them to go through the process? The only item on this list, I take that back, there are 2. The lighting ordinance, there is not a permit for light ordinance. The only other item on this list that there is not a permit or a process for' is the items in the right-of-way, which fi'om what 1 have been able to gather, there is no way for us to give that permission. So other than those two items there are processes itl place for these items to be addressed and we are asking do you want us to direct the propel%, owner that if he wishes to continue he go through that. There are also, in conjunction with that there are with these violations repercussions to the property owner and enforcement issues and we ueed to have direction fi'om the council if we should be working with the property oxvner to avoid all enforcement issue. Councilman Ayotte: Would it be inappropriate to ask roi' involvement fi'om the neighbors ill conjunction with the Kendall's? And would you welcome that so thatwe would have fi'om the get go interaction with everyone involved? Is that inappropriate? Mayor Jansen: There have been. fi'om what I understand, numerous neighborhood meetings. Is that an accurate? Bob Kendall: Well we had one this 3'eat' before Christmas. This fall. Councillnan Ayotte: Oil I'm not talking about a neighborhood meeting. I'm talking about with the effort to acquire a variance, that there would be input sought by not only the Kendall's but also the neighbors so that the buy ill is there on a consistent basis. Is that inappropriate or not? Teresa Burgess: A variance request would require a public hearing before the Planning Commission and so that would be a public hearing. It would be noticed to the property owners. In fact our meeting this evening was noticed to the same property owners that would have received a public hearing notice. We chose to send those notices out to 500 feet from the property owners. However, you also received a copy of that letter. It says very clearly in there that xve were not looking for spoken comments this evening except from the Kendall's. They xvere the only ones that an invitation was extended to to speak this evening. We asked roi' written...but they would have a chance to speak at a public hearing. Quite often when we have an issue that is a little bit contentious, we do recommend to the property owners that they maybe have a public meeting before hand so that they can be prepared to address the public hearing issues. Try to work them out in advance so that they, so that the public hearing can be a more pleasant experience for' all involved and that, in most cases can address a lot of the issues. If the Kendall's are aware of what the issues are, they carl then come to the city Planning Commission and say, these are the things we're willing to do that we're hearing from the property owners. And then the public knows that the property owners and adjacent know that they've already been heard and they don't feel a need to step tip to tile public hearing forum. 57 City Council Meeting - February 12,2001 Mayor Jansen' Okay. \Vhile Mr. Kendall's at the podium, were there any direct questions for Mr. Kendall or can we go ahead and have him sit down? Councilman Labatt: No. Mayor Jansen: Ah'ight, thank you. Appreciate it. Bob Kendall: Alright. Mayor Jansen: So as we're bringing this back to council, as stafFhas indicated, they're mainly seeking our direction as to whether or not we would like them to work with the applicant to go through the processes that would be required to legitimize the display basically within city ordinances and city code. And there is tile opportunity roi' them to request tile variances and come through tile process and permitting processes. Have I summarized that okay? Teresa Burgess: And at this point they are not all applicant. They have not applied roi' a variance. They have never been required to at this point. Mayor Jansen' And at this point we would be directing you to in fact proceed in that direction as far as making sure that the city's needs are also met as far as making sure that we're not putting ourselves out there for any liabilities at this point. You mentioned several liability issues on tile city's part. Teresa Burgess: That is what we're looking roi' is council direction. Should we be asking them to go through tile process or continue with past practice ofxvorking with tile Kendall's informally but not asking them ~o go through the formal process. Mayor Jallsell' Okay. So we're lq. Ct determining tonight whether or not we're granting variances. That would go back to the Planning Commission if they choose to come in with an application. Just so we're all clear as to what staff's requesting fi'om us. Councilnmn Labatt: Let's assume Teresa. the Kendall's apply fora variance to the Planning Commission. It gets approved through them and approved through us. How long is that variance good forever then or is there a cap on it or they have to come back and apply every year again? Teresa Burgess: I've discussed that with tile planning department and there is tile option of it being something that is attached to tile Kendall's ownership of the property. That it could be something that does not require a full variance application every year. Or it could be a yearly application. It either is an acceptable option, it's just which direction the council directs, feels is better or xvhich direction the Planning Commission, if you leave it to them, feels is more appropriate. If we did go with a continuous every year, we would probably be bringing it back xvithout the public hearing just to make sure that any conditions get added or subtracted as they seem appropriate. Scott Botcher: You need to do it annually given the perpetual change in tile display. You're going to want to do it annually. Councilman Peterson: Couldn"t you get a conditional use permit and do it, set tile annual target. Scott Botcher: You can do something like that but I think you need to at least have some sort of' annual review of the display and tlle impact tile display has had upon tile community. 58 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Councilman Ayotte: As things change. Scott Botcher: Absolutely. Mayor Jansen: And that can be deterlnined as it comes up through tile process then as you said, determining tile va,'iances. Scott Botcher: Tile bottom line is, and I told Linda this today. Wejust n~ed to know do you xvant us to enforce tile rules or not. Ma)'or Jansen' Yep. Scott Botcher: And we get. contrary to respectfully Mr. Kendall, I personally have seen more people jut out. blow out in the traffic than I care to count. It's a collector street. It's not a residential street like in Inver Grove lqeights. There's some significant differences and I just want everyone to know that if we secure these variances, and we have some basic rules that we may have to apply, it very well may significantly impact tile display. And keep itl mind, this is a residential neighborhood. Mayor Jansen: Understood. Scott Botcher: And we spend a lot of time up here arguing over 6,000 square foOt lot, 2 feet here, 2 feet there but we've got this display that's a pretty impactful display that, you know let's remember when we do this. if we apply some of these rules and tile variances, that it may reach a point where they may not be willing to alter tile display to the standards that tile city may feel is necessary so. I don't want to make it sound like it's get a variance and we're done because I don't think... Mayor Jansen: No, I think we understand the implication. Let's bring it back to council. If we want to come tip with a consensus of what tile direction is to staff please. Councilman Kroskin: I have olle question. What are tile variances with respect to tile parking, or tile no parking on either side of Lake Lucy? Teresa Burgess: The city has a policy that is ill place for lifting, a temporary lifting of no parking zones. Lake Lucy Road is designated Ilo parking and as a requirement, both because of it's collector status and also because of it's funding through the Minnesota State, the Department of Transportation. We have that policy that states that you make an application to the city for temporary lifting of no parking. Our policy states 48 hours. However in this case we brought it to the council and said could you lift it for a little bit longer than that and the council formally did lift it for the duration of the Christmas season from approximately Thanksgiving through January, the New Year's weekend. We'd like to point out the display does go up usually about October and it's up right now. So that gives you an idea of the timeframe that we are looking at. The no parking on Lake Lucy is something that is necessary' during general time periods. We do have some ability to limit how much of that area can be used for parking in the parking policy when we lift those restrictions. We can designate only a limited area for parking area. Mayor Jansen: And that would be something that we would be reviewing next 3,ear as a permit would be coming through tile system. 59 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Teresa Burgess: \\/e would review that as the permit comes through the system. Mayor Jansen' Okay. It's not something that we would be determining at this point? Teresa Burgess: And again that's an enforcement issue. This year we did li~ parking, the no parking restriction on a large portion of the street because we knew people would park t here and the deputies have not traditionally enforced no parking. It seemed more appropriate to li~'the no parking than to leave the no parking in place and not enforce the issue. It puts the deputies in a very poor position to ask them to turn and look the other way and it we felt it was more appropriate to li~ the no parking zone than to leave it in place and ask the deputies to do nothing. Ma>or Jansen' Okay. Do we have a general consensus Oll the council to direct staff to work with the applicant to go through the processes on the points in code and ordinance that is affecting this display? Cot~ncilman Avotte' So moved. Mayor Jansen: You're making that a motion? Councilman A>'otte' Yes. Mayor Jnnsen: Okay. He's motioning what she said. Cot~n'cilmnn Labatt: I guess tho alternative is we toll him to shut it down ifxve don't. Max'or ,lansen: Correct. Councilman Labatt: Well I'm not willing to do that at all. Councilman Peterson' Or we have them look the other xx'ay which l'm not really motivated to do either SO. Councilman Labatt: No. No. Nlavor Jansen' Can I have a second, since we have a motion on the table. Councilman Laban: Second. Mayor Jansen: Okay, so we have a second. Open for discussion, sorry. I didn't mean to cut anybody off. Okay, so we have a motion and a second. Conncilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to direct staff to work with the applicant to go through the processes on the points in code and ordinance that is affecting this display. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Mayor Jansen' Staff are >'ou clear on direction? Teresa Burgess: I am clear. 60 City Council Meeting- February 12. 2001 Mas'or Jansen: Thank you. And thank you to everyone for coming. Appreciate it. \Villard Johnson: Mayor, may I make one comment? Mayor Jansen: Certainly. Willard Johnson' If you look back in tile city records at tile Lake Lucy Road...they wanted to re-widen it again when it reaches to Lake Lucy Road...people that live along there call tile city hall and get a permit to park and that was, if you check back in the city records... Mayor Jansen: Okay, appreciate your COlnments. No, this wasn't a public hearing. We had everyone's comments within tile record that were submitted in writing. Thank you. DISCUSSION OF THE 2001 STREET IMPROVEMENT PROJECT ASSESSMENTS - PROJECT NO. 01-01. Teresa Burgess: Well it has to be really brief because I can't stand very long and I have to put this up oil the board so I can explain what I'm talking about. Councilman Ayotte: Do you want to sit down Teresa or do it fi'om tile seat? Teresa Burgess: I'll be fine. In 30 seconds or less I'll give a quick lesson on pavement management. \Ve'll go over this in a little bit more detail with tile council members when they come through council orientation but. Mayor Jansen: Excuse me. if you wouldn't mind maybe stepping out. We'rejust going to finish up. Thank you. Not meaning to scoot you out but. Teresa Burgess: Ill 2000 tile City did a study of the entire city's street system and we put together a street pavement system management plan and that's what this book is. And just to run through it real quick. \Vhat the intention is. when you have a street. These are actually points. Each of these scattered points is the, an actual street that was inspected by someone physically going out there and looking at it and they gave it a ranking and that ranking is based on the number of cracks in the street. The number of cuts for utilities. The number of patches. How good tile street looks, and then also some information that we have fi'om our public works department fi'Oln looking at what they know fi'om how many times they've covered up some problems out there for us and that's what all of these scattered pieces are. Now then the computer went through and it created a model. This is the top line. This is tile bottom line. The one ill the middle is approxiinately what the city of Chanhassen's streets do. And this is based on actual impurical data that tile city has collected. The intention, when you're doing proper pavement managelnent and xvhat the computer is trying to tell us to do is to catch the streets in this end right here. If you catch the streets right about here you can do what's called a mill and overlay. Every time you do that you bump the street condition back up to 100. Theoretically you can do that for eternity. The discussion that I've had when people have asked me to explain that in normal household terms, a mill and overlay is putting new shingles on your roof. It's something that every time you put new shingles on, if you sell 3'our house they ask when was your new roof put in and you say the year you put in the new shingles. Once the pavement gets down into here it's not very cost effective to mill and overlay. You might as well wait until it starts to fall off down into here. Now once you get down into here you're talking about a full reconstruct. A full reconstruct, to put that into household terms is when you take, and instead of just putting on new shingles, you put on new sheathing, new tar paper and new shingles. So 61 City Council Meeting - February 12.2001 we're talking about a significant change in tile cost of the project fi'om here to here. Tile only thing that that doesn't work on is when you're up itl here and you have a street that you've done this with and you've done this recycle and continuous mill and overlay and then you have a watermain problem. And we do have one project in our area that we're proposing for this year that has a severe watermain problem. It automatically bumps down here because you cannot do watermain repair, sanitary sewer repair, significant repairs where you've got to dig up the street up in this area. You have to dig it up. You have to dig trenches and so the only hope is to come down here and in those cases a lot of times we'll let a road deteriorate for cost savings benefit. Now when you look at this fi'om a cost benefit analysis, there's another thing to keep in mind. As you're up ill here, your maintenance o£this pavement to keep it driveable is what would be considered reasonable. Ollce yotl get out to here, we Call keep this pavement driveable out here at this end. This plateau out here. We can make it so you can get into your house, no problem. It's what it costs us. And we are seeing at this point in the city of Chanhassen mill and overlay projects, we're seeing overlay projects every 2 years. Not the mill and overlay but the overlap projects every 2 )'ears. \Ve should be seeing those every 15. So you can see that we have a significant cost increase in our maintenance program. The city currently funds that maintenance prograln 100% out of general fund budget so if we continue down this road we have a lot of streets that are in great shape right now and we'ct love to keep those streets in good shape. Longacres is an excellent example. They're relatively new. They get taken care of now. We could be for the next 30 years enjoying the benefits ora xvell built street. If we don't do those things though, we will eventually have every street in this city needing those 2 year overlays and the maintenance costs will be astronomical. \Ve can't aftbrd to do that. And so looking at that, one of the things I did is I drew up an assessment roll looking at the potential assessments to be able to do a project this year. And I did burn the~e on the computer so we can talk numbers and tile council may need to think about this fora while but lookino= at our 100% assesslnent roll, with Otll' 300//o indirect cost, and that's that first spreadsheet. This is what our current policy says we're supposed to do. We're looking at assessments ranging from $20,849 per parcel to $1.201 pet' parcel. That $1~201...is one of those mill and overlay projects. You get a lot of bang roi' the buck. At 520,800. when we saw that number in our department there's no way that we could send that out to a neighborhood and ask then~ to foot that cost without council consent that that is a reasonable request. \Ve all kind of gagged and we're used to dealing, you know we've been dealing with Highway 5 and we're talking millions and I looked at that and thought, I'd have to mortgage my house. \Ve then did some number crunching and you' 11 see in there several versions of my number crunching as I tried to come up with something reasonable and tile problem we run into is tile shortfall. Tile city Shortfall ill this whole thing. \\;e start talking about. Councilman Labatt: Is that your Attachment D? Or E? Teresa Burgess: That would be Attachment E. We're looking at anywhere between, and keep in mind the shortfall does not include the ciD' assessments. We assess ourselves. We're looking at anywhere between $300 and $37,000 and $1.4 million in shortfall. Now we can certainly defer some projects. We have some fancy footv,'ork we can do on the financing to bring that number down, but it really is pretty significant what we're talking about. Looking at that first one under there, this is probably the most cost effective fi'om tile city standpoint if we don't consider the property owners because we would be using funds out of our sewer and water utility fired to offset some of the costs that people have already paid for once. Tile only downfall of doing that is that then our water rates need to be adjusted to account for that additional use that we are currently not burdening that fund with. That fund is paid for through water hook-ups and through utility rates. If that is something that the council is interested in pursuing, we would have to do a rate study to see what that impact is to the water rates and the sewer rates to give you ail idea. At this time we don't know how much that dollar amount would be and what the impact would be to resident bills. Looking at some of the other options as we get into, the other one that I drew out 62 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 here xvith tile 40% assessment of the street. You look at those numbers, we're talking about general levy dollars xvhen we start looking at those offsetting costs. The majority of that money does come out of the general levy and so that's a significant impact for the council and I know that this council has discussed, tile majority of this council has discussed the issue of budget and trying to cut back and noxv I'm standing here saying can I have $1.4 million. So with that in a nutshell, trying to tell you why it's important we do it, I xvould like some council direction on what I should do with these projects. The only one that I am extremely concerned about, the others I'm willing to defer a year ifI need to, is this one. Those of you that have talked to me about this project, this is the area where xve've had in excess of 20 watermain breaks ill a 2 block area. The property owners are aware of the issues. We are looking at a significant probleln. If we experience another waterlnain break in this area, we probably will not try to patch it. Instead what we will do is hire a contractor under emergency situation to replace the waterlnain. We've reached tile point where there's not enough there to hold it together with a saddle. We'll have to have them come ill, relnove the pipe and put in new pipe. The entire neighborhood is not in that situation but there is all area in there that if we experience a watermain break in that specific area, we can't fix it. Councihnan Labatt: How old is tile watemlain in that area? Teresa Burgess: Tile watennain is as old as the l~eighborhood. Councilman Labatt: Late 60's? Teresa Burgess: \Ve would estimate tile late 60's. It is common for watermains to have problems after 30 years. The city ofChanhassen has hot-soils. What that means is they're very acidic. They dissolve things that are placed ill them. \Ve've had problems with pipes of different ages, depending on tile materials that were used. \Ve also had a batch of what looks like faulty bolts that came through tile city at one point where we had bought a batch of bolts and as we dig up those valves we find a lot of those bolts have, they're not there. There's nothing there. Tile dirt is what's holding it together. So we do have some watem~ain that vary in age. Some as young as 10 .-,,ears old that is some significant problems. In this case it's just a function of the neighborhood. The soil conditions. We've had some shifting. Some settling and then you know watennain breaks happen and unfortunately we have a lot of them in this area. So tile other projects I aln fairly confident deferring for future but this one is something that it is time roi' tls to address this neighborhood and take a serious look at it. Mayor Jansen: And ~neaning this 3'ear on this one, when you're saying potentially not tile Others. It's not shifting it long term but potentially next year. Teresa Burgess: Right. Tile other ones we could shift a year or two. This one needs to be done, if not this year next spring at the very latest. We need to have plans on the books very soon so that we, if we did hit that emergency situation, we would have plans prepared. Otherwise we would probably be out there by the seat of our pants designing in the trenches. Mayor Jansen: So now I'm really looking at that project, and because of the computer virus I'm not sure what your answer would have been back to me but on this storm water, the storm sewer amount. I think one of my questions was, is that amount also one that could be funded out of the sewer and water utility fund? It wasn't one that you had grouped with tile no assessment for watermain or sanitary. Teresa Burgess: It is not eligible out of the sewer and water utility fund. It would be eligible potentially out of the SWMP fund. 63 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Scott Botcher: Let me ask the question. I guess I think. Teresa Burgess: Here's those numbers that I couldn't e-mail to anybody and I don't know if you call zoom in. If you can zoom in on tile last line. That's tile most important one. Let's look at this one down here, this 18%. That leaves the ciD' with the legal costs of the project. Tile only thing that tile 18% covers is design and construction engineering. We're not covering administration of the project. We're not covering legal costs. We're not covering any of our printing or anything like that. 'We're basically eating that as a city and saying you know that's what we're here for anyway. But the 18% is something that you know, we'll have to hire a consultant to do this project. We don't have staff on hand to do it. \Ve don't have tine computer software to do it and it's a legitimate cost tile city bears. If you look at this one without the sanitary sewer, the watermain or tile storm sewer, you can see we're getting down to about $11,000. The shortfall that you see there is the sanitary, tile storm and the water. And looking at just that top line. that's that neighborhood that has tile significant watermain break. Now our water utility superintendent has told me he's comfortable as long as we get authorization to do this project in the next year so we're talking by 2002 we have a project out there for bid. Scott Botcher: For District 1. Teresa Burgess: For District 1. The rest of them could be pushed off'slightly longer, but tlnat one we need to have bids out next spring and we should be bidding by this time of year next year, at the very latest. I would like to get this project done this year if possible; but I understand that what I'm asking you is some pretty significant questions and xve-may not be able to do that this year. Councilman Avotte: But the base line question, because I'm not interested in being tile first councilman assassinated, is to get rid of the 100% assessment. Teresa Burgess' And there are lots of options for doing that. There;s everything fi'om setting a cap. Still going with 100% assessment and setting a cap to setting some other form of assessment roll. NYe did do. I have enough paper up here to keep... \Ve did do all informal telephone survey oftlne surrounding communities and we asked them what they do for assessments and you'll see that as Attachment D. I apologize how bad this thing got but I couldn't think of a better way to do it. Shakopee currently assesses 25% ora reconstruction project. 25% of an overlay. They do not assess for Sealcoat, watern~ain, sanitary sewer or storm sewer. They build tlnose into their fees. Chaska assesses 25% of reconstruction. Their overlay, tine5' are debating what they should do right now and so they've left that as a not applicable because they don't know what they do. They currently assess 100% of water, sanitary and 25% of storm. We were confused fi'om out' conversation with them. If they assessed 100%...sanitary sewer. We were not able to get that clarified. \X/hen we talked to them we still left a little bit confused on that. Eden Prairie has a cap. They assess 100% up for a cap, and quite fl'ankly I'm glad I don't have a reconstruction in Eden Prairie this >,eat' because that cap is much higher ttnan I think is reasonable. And then they assess versus, they have a funny assessment process where they go through a cap but they adjust the cap for inflation. Minnetonka does not assess for anything. They pay for it out of general fund and out of their water utility rates. 100%. Councilman Ayotte: Tile road out of their water utility rate? Teresa Burgess: They pay for tile road out of their general fund. And tlney pa:), for the water and sanitary out of their utility. Councilman Avotte' Okay. 64 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Teresa Burgess: They set that up in 1996. They had to do some pretty painful things at the beginning but they are now in a position where they do not have to assess at this point. Wayzata did. Mayor Jansen: So if I might ask, do they then have as one of their levy items an ainount for tile road projects? That's just an ongoing annual amount as part of the levy. Teresa Burgess: They have a budget item. Scott Botcher: Capital replacement fund. Teresa Burgess: They have a capital improvement program that includes that as a line item in their general fund. Mayor Jansen: So it's really taking tile assessment and spreading it throughout tile community alld everyone bearing tile same burden, if you would for the road construction? Teresa Burgess: It's very similar to what tile city of Chanhassen has done only instead of doing reconstructs, we are doing maintenance and we are spreading it across our entire population because we pay for our maintenance out of our general fund. And we are stm-ting to struggle to be able to lneet tile maintenance needs in our current budget. , Mayor Jansen: Okay. Understood. So it's similar, their general fulld lex'3' amount other than the fact that we would be adding reconstruction to our lev3'. Teresa Burgess: Right. \Vhere we show sealcoat, they show reconstruct. Scott Botcher: I guess, you know what I'd like to do is, again I can assume, ti'3' to wrap this tip because y'ou've got to go Steve, right? I assume then ilo olle wants to be assassinated so we won't, v,:e can go on tile assumption that tile assessment process is not looked upon in favor. Because I guess then if that's tile case, a second question is I'd like, and I think we can probably do this Teresa and colne back in 2 weeks. I'd like to have 2 weeks to talk to Mary Ipple. Councilnlan Ayotte: Sa)' again? Scott Botcher: 2 weeks to talk to Mary Ipple. There's some processes and procedures that. Mayor Jansen: Financial advisors. Scott Botcher: Yep. Mayor Jansen: For those who aren't familiar with. Scott Botcher: Our bond attorney. I'm sorry, our bond attorney. I apologize. And just I guess take Teresa's request and I'll just assume that you're saying at this point assume that we do District number 1. And assulne that we will not assess for it. And if those are the scenarios that you're communicating to me now. I can go work and talk to Mai'3, Ipple. Is that what you're saying? 65 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Mayor Jansen: I think we probably need to talk about it, and maybe bring this back so we can address District 1 because if in fact what you're saying is you know no assessment, and I don't know that I'm willing to go there. Scott Botcher: I assumed incorrectly then. Mayor Jansen' Okay. You're talkingaboutwov~,, yeah. $610,000. Okay. Well, if you want us addressing specifically District 1 tonight, then we can bring it back and have that discussion and then I'm anticipating that council may need a little bit more information on tile different funding vehicles for whichever one of these percentages we were to decide we were comfortable going with. Teresa t3urgess: And to be honest, the intention of bringing it tonight, I was hoping roi' an answer but I was not counting on one. And not expecting one. I know the size of this issue and I'm trying to bring it to tile council so that you call think about it and give me some direction at some point. One of the things to keep in mind is, if we are going to assess, we have to be able to defend these assessments and I do not feel I can defend tile $20,000. And I don't, I'm not comfortable with those numbers without the council endorsing them. The number that I was shooting for, to be honest, is $5,000 roi' a reconstruct. $2,500 For a mill and overlay and those numbers just come fi'om discussions in our staff. Discussions with other city engineers and gut reaction ill saying you get some value back. Councilman Avotte' Are defendable numbers tile 5K and the $2.500? Do you have the ability. Teresa Burgess: There's nothing out there to base our numbers on. They're reallyjust a gut reaction saying, we think we call do it. The way you have to do these assessment defenses is if somebody can test an assessment, you have to show that they received at a minimum the benefit equal to the assessment. So we would, if somebody contested it. we would either have to be able tO show beyond a reasonable doubt that they had received that benefh through comparisons of similar projects and similar properties. Or we would have to do an appraisal before and after. Councilman Avotte: To go back on. I really am against 100% assessment across tile board. I'd like to see an infl'astructure general fund. You know I've talked to you about that and I'd like to see where there would be updated tile Fee structure For Future development activities to feed that infl'astructure general fund and I'd like to see all across the board levy to everyone to beef that up because what the picture that you paint right now is a need to deal with reconstruct roi' a long time. Teresa Burgess: It's an eternity. \Ve will be dealing with it as long as the city of Chanhassen is here' and one thing to keep in mind, and I would caution the council, whatever we decide to do with District 1 will direct us on tile rest of it. We will at a minimum have a precedent to deal with and we can certainly do that and like I said, the water utility superintendent tells me he can hold it together roi' another year, but we've got to address that district. At a minimum I've got to have plans out there on tile books for bid letting next spring. Councilman Ayotte: That's why I like Scott's idea to get more information with respect to it. Now I'd like to also tie in, you knoxv what we talked about before with water. You know we also got the water conservation issue and the metering that has to be addressed. Wily not roll that all up together because that call help pay fox' the mains, right? Mayor Jansen: That's part of'the direction that council needs to discuss as far as coming up with a consensus as to how we're going to direct staff. 66 City Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 Councilman Ayotte: Well now you've got my opinion so. Mayor Jansen: To pursue that so I appreciate your comments. One of the tilings that I think those of you xvho were not intimately involved itl the budget and may not realize the implications of this street number. This is a huge number that would be going against our general fund. So as far as our needing to determine what percent we assess, we're going to need to take a real hard. look at what that's going to mean to that general fund leD' because as Teresa threw out that $5,000 for a reconstruct, I go down to the schedule that's fora 40% assessment and that's half. Her $5,000 is halfo'fxvhat is being reflected here in this assessment so now we're talking we're going down to a 20% assessment, and the rest of it's then going against the general fund and it's a huge amount. Going against the levy. Teresa Burgess: \Veil if you see those ntnnbers, it's tile last one on tile last page at tile very bottom.' That's where I get to my $5,000. I'm at $5,500. That's as close as I could get. Councilman Labatt: That's 18%. Teresa Burgess: That's 18%. The city is eating tile legal costs. Tile city is eating tile administrative costs. \Ve're only paying a consultant to do design and inspection. Councilman Kroskin: And you get a shol-tfall of about $1.5 mil. Teresa Burgess: Right. By the time you add ill tile city, tile 30% indirect costs, we're about $1.5 mil. And keep ill mind that 30% is an average. One project will run 33. One project will run 22. You kllow it really is an average across tile board. 30% is what we charge when a developer comes through and asks us to do a project for them. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Is council open to having some discussion and comment about direction that you're comfortable with? Ayotte has ah'eady voiced part of his opinion. Whoever would like to. Scott Botcher: And please don't misunderstand. I think you need to have the discussion. I'd just hate to have you.., without all tile information. Nlayor Jansen: l think itl general, exactly. No, more so looking roi' comments as far as what everyone wants to be looking roi'. If it's more information, let's direct staff as to additional charts and numbers that they need to come back with but I'm hearing we at least need to have some initial maybe feel from council. Teresa Burgess: We need enough from council, because previous direction was 100% assessment. We need enough fi'om council to say go find something better. And we can certainly go work with the financial advisors and come up with a better proposal. Scott Botcher: Play with spreadsheets. Mayor Jansen: And show us what it's going to end up doing for the leD'. Teresa Burgess: But tile purpose of tonight was, we've already been given direction and we do not feel comfortable with that direction and so we're coming back for clarification. 67 (Tit>' (Touncil Meeting - February 12. 2001 Mayor Jansen: Okay, thank you. Is anyone here comfortable with 100% assessment? No. Comments fi'om council. (Touncilman Kroskin: \Vell I think starting fi'om a little bit higher overview. Just as I'm sitting here I'm, one of the things l'm not happy about is tile Fact that District 1, we're finding out ill February that District 1 's ~,ot to be done this year. I think that. Teresa Burgess: And I'd like to answer that real quickly. We need to do the plans this year. We've got to have that set of plans out for bid next spring at tile very latest. We'd li~e to do it this year. Councilman Kroskin: I understand that. \Vhat nay point is, is that I think that you've got potentially if you're going to get this done. it's going against tile tax levy. Or it's going against this year's budget and tile levv Fol' this year is set in December. I guess it's unFol'tunate that at this point with. this wasn't kllOW back then. I guess this is one of those expenses that was bantered about that could rear it's ugly head during tile course of 2001 ill those discussions. And it's just an unfortunate scenario. I think that I would like to see a little bit more heads up. Foi' us to find out about this in February and it's got to be done this year. that's not enough notice on all,',' project. On any kind oF expenditure like this. Tile ¢OUllCi[; the city should know. Mayor Jansen: And just a little to staff"s defense. It is being rolled up off' of the pavement management plan as Far as. as coming Forward with this proposal and I'm sure timing ill tile Future would be different on these p~'oposals to know farther in advance. Councilman Kroskin' Okay. Mayor Jansen: So appreciate 5'ou~' point taken. Councillnan Kroskin: I guess I'nl not interested in incurring any debt to pay For this. Fol' tile city. I think SOllq. e oFthis is going to have to be assessed. I don't have a magic number For the percentage. I guess I'd like to look at, you l,:noxx' I think you've got a pretty good spread right here. I just don't see it being Feasible getting it doxvn to where the city on District. what's tile hit on District 1 if we do a 5I( on tile reconstl'UCt? Roughly. Nlayor Jansen: Is that last chal7 correct? Councilnmn Labatt: 4.37. Mayor Jansen: Just that one district. Tile short£all is almost 700. 670. Councilman Kroskin: That's a big hit and we're setting a precedent, t don't know if we can do that. I think there's~ot to be some.~ it's =ooing to have to be hiozher~, than that. Mayor Jansen' Okay. Councilman Peterson: Talking about tile precedent question. Is it truly a precedent? I mean why can't we do something different in area 1 and something different in area 2? Because tile degradation of the road ill area number 1 is substantially more. 68 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Teresa Burgess: One thing the council needs to be aware of is that, as a property owner in area 2 receives their notice, they will be aware, from past experience, property owners come and they investigate and they find out and they will ask what has been done in the past. There's nothing that says we can't do that. We could make tile statement that we are going to pay for this with this set assessment and that we will then make an evaluation, but tile property owners xvill be aware of that and we will have to address those issues when they come back later. And so the council just needs to be axvare that even if it's not intended as a precedent, we will have the political side of it to take care and quite fi'ankly I'm not elected so that's something that, that's why I'm asking you. Mayor Jansen' We got that. Councihnan Labatt: But tile scope of the project could be different for area 1 to 2. Teresa Burgess' Correct. Councilman Labatt: So the precedence could therefore be different fi'om 1 to 2. Teresa Burgess: Correct. Scott Botcher: If you can get tile citizens to buy into that. Mayor Jansen: Tile percent that they're picking up thougli is tile precedent. Not the road condition. Councilnlan Labatt: But when you go and you look at tile scope of the work and you dig down below tile top layer of the papers, for me it;d be easily defendable but saying well folks in district 2, you know or district 1, whatever it is. If you got assessed 50% in area I and all of a sudden something else comes up differently and you know another district gets shot up with 60% assessment, well if the scope is different, then I'd be justified in saying your assessment was different. Scott Botcher: I think what Linda is saying that it will be different because of the cost of the project, right? Mayor Jansen' Yes. Tile percentage will be tl~e same but the cost of the project is going to vary for the more serious one, they're going to get hit for more. Councihnan Labatt: Oil right. Right. Mayor Jansen: But tile percentage needs to be consistent or you're not being fair. Councilman Labatt: If you have area 1 and area 2 that both need complete watermains and reconstruction, everything's the same but the size of the project is bigger. Mayor Jansen: If you look at the difference just within the two, the two top ones are reconstructs and there is a variance between the amounts that each are receiving. Councilman Labatt: Right, and is it the size of the project that's dictating that? Teresa Burgess: That's a part of it. Tile number of parcels that we're able to spread it out across. 69 City Council Meeting - February 12.2001 Councillnan Labatt: Yeah, 33 to 50. Teresa Burgess: Tile other difference is that the one street is closer to city standard and xve have in our estimates we have assumed that we will bring these streets as close to city standard as possible. \Ve have not expanded the widths of the existing streets to bring them up to width standard but they do not currently have concrete curb and gutter. There streets are receiving concrete curb and gutter to bring them up to that standard. That's something that a developer would be required to build. We are building into our standard fora 7-10 roadway. Mayor Jansen: \Vould it be reasonable if this evening we were to. Mr. Botcher I guess I'm directing this to you. Ifxve were to identify of two of the options to say take these two. Go back. Tell us if you can in fact justin: the assessment amounts within each of the different proposals and also show us then what the funding options are and what the impact is on the lev3'. Would that be appropriate for direction tonight? Scott Botcher: Sure. You can come up with any percentage you want. I guess ill my, I think the biggest question here is how you're going to finance it. How you're going to pull it together. Tile numbers, you call pick 30 or 40 or 50 or whatever and then obviously tile numbers will change. What I think is more critical is tile methodology that you're going to employ in getting this done. Because without seeing that tile numbers, tile size of the numbers are ce~-tainly going to drive some of your choices, but I think that there's just fundamentally some financing structure that you call look at. We talked about setting up a capital fund roi' improvements. Frankly until we get out past 2004/5 and...TIF, we don't have tile wherexvithal to do it but we need to do it. You two I know have heard that fi'om staff. Bruce and I in particular, but sure. If you want to pick txx o, we call run spreadsheets until we're blue ill the face and break out all different levels and that's not a hard thing to do with Excel. And then just tie my . conversations with Mary Ippel into what xx'e can do to those specific nun~bers tile best we call. Mavor Jansen: And when we're talking about tile different funding options, we're also going to tile possibility of doing the rate restructuring so that that's also part of that whole discussion. Not that you call give tls that nulnber, fi'om what I heard you sa3.' earlier. Scott Botcher: Yep. One of the things that we talked about at budget time when we talked about the rate issue, if you guys remelnber, was if something happens that, but we didn't really before Teresa came on board, our engineering department was not as interested maybe or proficient at using tile pavement management study. And she's got some good experience with it and has taken it, as you can see, and use it tile way you're supposed to. And what Mark said is right, we should be getting these things several years in advance and la3.' this thing out against tile CIP and sa3,' here's what we're got and here's how v,,e budget. But Teresa hasn't been here that long and she comes to me and says goll we've got 20 breaks and it's held together with baling wire. So this is one we sort of need to do. Tile rest of them we can all throw into tile budget process for next year and really just make it go as best we can. Mayor Jansen: And you'd be able to give us something of a 5 year projection based upon the pavement plan as to what we're looking at. Teresa Burgess: Tile pavement management plan, actually what it does is if you plug in a number and sa,,' this is my budget, it will go through and say this is the most cost effective way for you to apply that ll'lOlley... Councilman Ayotte: When you sa), rate, you talk about rate structure. Or rate. 70 City Council Meeting-February 12, 2001 Scott Botcher: Well we're talking about the utility rate. Councilman Ayotte: Utility rate structure, yeah. Scott Botcher: Correct. And we had sort of said we're going to put it off because the audit kept coming back saying rate structures that support current demand and I always said that's true unless a surprise comes up. Well, I think maybe now is the time to maybe get more serious about that rate. Councilman Ayotte: As an incentive rather than just a revenue generator, right? So for example, if you use less water. Scott Botcher: Or our loss ratio is just a whole other discussion. Councillnan Ayotte: Well that's meters... Scott Botcher: Yep, yep, absolutely. Mayor Jansen: That's a different ordinance. Scott Botcher: That's a different topic, different day. Mayor Jansen: Okay. Scott Botcher: So do you have two numbers that you want us to pla5, with? Mayor Jansen' Is council at all comfortable or do we nee. d to bring this back in 2 weeks after we've look at this and give direction at that point as to the different numbers? I'm seeing Craig looking for the 2 weeks. Councilnlan Peterson' I would like tinle to. Councilman Kroskin' I would too. Scott Botcher: You could think about it and. Councilman Labatt: And see what Mar5, Ippel. Scott Botcher: Maybe she has some ideas. Councihnan Labatt: See if they have a recommendation. I mean I don't...numbers until you're blue in the face. Scott Botcher: Maybe we can structure a spreadsheets all linked together and we'll just change the number. Mayor Jansen' There you go. But I think you've got your direction that your 100% assessment call was appropriate so, thank you. Teresa Burgess: I was looking for tonight just direction that I could get away from the 100%. 71 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 Mayor Jansen' Yeah. I ti-link you got that. So you don't need any motions? We're set? You've got tile direction? Okay. Let's go on to number 8. DISCUSSION OF WATER RESTRICTION FOR PHASE II OF THE LAKE LUCY WATER RESERVOIR RENOVATION PROJECT NO. 00-02. Mayor Jansen: Are we prepared to lose Councilman Labatt as far as any. Councilman Labatt: It's all just direction lerOl]l I'lOX, V Oll. isn't it? Teresa Burgess: This one is a resolution. Iqow many votes do we need on the resolution roi' tile watering restrictions? Scott Botcher: Majority. Teresa Bu~'gess: So we can do it without Councilnlan Labatt. Councilman Kroskin: Are you=oln=o ' o to be here on the ~. Councilmnn Labatt: I'm going to be here but it's going to be a verb' shol~t meeting. Scott Botcher: Oknv. And then call me sometime so we can talk about Fairviexv Hospital. Councilman Labatt' Yeah. I-oot= a phone call fi'om them. l haven;t called them back because I don't know anyth ins about it. Scott Botcher' Call me fil'St. Okay. that's it. (Councilman Labatt left the meeting at this point.) Mayor Jansel!: You're just with tls all night aren't you? Scott Botcher: \Ve only have her for a couple n-lore months. Mayor Jansen: \Ve hardly see you at all and. Teresa Burgess: Trying to get the last few months out of me I guess. What we're looking for tonight is council to approve tile resolution for Phase II of the watering restrictions for the Lake Lucy water tower. Phase I was done last year and everyone I'm sure remembers those watering restrictions. We have restructured tile restrictions based on what we learned last year and also because Phase II of the water tower is significantly different than Phase I. Phase I was the interior of the tower. Phase II is the exterior. It's a much shorter project. We are more weather dependent but it should be done more quickly. We have explored SOl¥~e options to be able to not do watering restrictions and what xve discovered was, you Call actually paint the tower while it's £ull. So what we discovered is that in doing that, first of all we can't get a warranty. And tile second thing is we would have to cancel our contract which would require us to pa>; TMI, our current contractor, and then rebid the project and pay roi' it again. And based on that cost, a 5 week watering restriction didn't seem too bad. We have restriction this year to be a 5:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. \Ve tried to make it as simple as possible. People are still 72 City Council Meeting - February 12, 2001 restricted to the odd/even restriction. That is a city ordinance that goes into place Ma), 1 st through September 30th every year. We are uot adding to or subtracting. We are just add to that odd/even. We are just adding the 5:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. restriction for lawn irrigation and garden irrigation only. If the council has any questions, I'd be happy to answer those. Mayor Jansen: And our biggest difficulty with last year's restrictions were the hours that they were allowed to actually water their lawns because it was an obnoxious hour of the early morning. Council was accused of setting the hours because we all had timers I think was what the accusation was, but I think these hours won't in fact have people marching on us over that. An~t then the other, thing, and not to go through it tonight. The other issue was our public education campaign. At some point, not this evening, you could prepare. Teresa Burgess: Which is why we're asking for it noxv. Mayor Jansen: Okay. The outline of what you're proposing for us to get a feel for that. Teresa Burgess: If it's okay with council I'll just send you an e-mail real quick later in the week that details what we're going to be doing. The intention of asking for it now is that, so we can get it out in the nexvspapers. \Ve can get it out in publications. We'll be doing a direct mail. All of that, we need time to be able to do that and so we're asking for you to authorize the resolution now. We can start preparing our presentation in the neighborhoods. Start getting the information out and hopefully have a much more successful restriction this year than we did last 3,ear. Mayor Jansen: We learned a lot coming through last year, to say the least. And this is a reflection of that. Council. any questions for staff? Scott Botcher: Got a lot of snow. Good snow melt. Mayor Jansen: If I could call for a motion please. To approve the resolution. Councilman Peterson: Motion to approve the resolution as presented. Councihnan Kroskin: Second. Resolution #2001-10: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Kroskin seconded to approve the resolution entitled, Resolution Prohibiting Use of City Water Supply System for Specified Purposes, Waiving Required Landscape Escrows, and Postponing Required Planting as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 0. APPOINT COUNCIL MEMBER TO TH 212 CORRIDOR MANAGEMENT PUBLIC ADVISORY COMMITTEE. : Teresa Burgess: I'm assuming this will be an easy appointment since he's gone. MnDot has, is setting up an advisory colnmittee for the Trunk Highway 212 Management Corridor Group and as part of that they are requesting an elected official to sit on their public advisory committee. They refer to it as a PAC, and a technical person to sit ou their TAC. Technical Advisory Committee. Engineering and planning will supply the TAC person. Hoxvever we are looking for one of the council members to be named as the PAC representative. Looking at past projects that have been similar done by MnDot, we're probably looking at the very beginning with a once a month. Eventually probably going to once a 73 City Council Meeting February 1'> o001 qum'ter. It is unknown how long this will take. If it will be a one yem' or if it could go, become all ongoing thing that just lneets periodically to discuss tile corridor itself`. It does not relate to, and I just want to stress so everybody is aware of it, it does not relate to tile aesthetics of the roadway as far as design goes or the alignment of the roadway for design puqooses. It is just the management of the con'idor. And with that, if there's any questions. Mayor Jallsell: Any questions fi'om Council? · Councilman Peterson: Do you know when they meet? During the da>.' or evenina, any idea? Teresa Burgess: I have not received the correspondence yet. I would expect them to meet during the daf'. However. because this is elected of,ficials, usually these groups are governed by tile committee members themselves. They will meet tile first time will be set by MnDot but at that first meeting tile members will state their pref,erence roi' both fl'equency of`meeting and time of`meeting. And it will be set that way. The one thing we have asked at this point is that all correspondence be sent to our of,fice since we did not know who tile individual would be on the group. \Ve would like to keep copies so that if`that person changes, that we have copies and we have a continuous file in the engineering depa~-tment. Both for inf,Ol'mation f,or the rest of`the council and also in case that gets changed, they don't have to worry about who to mail stuf,f`to. Mayor Janse~l: Sul'e. that sounds reasonable. Do we have any volunteers? Anyone interested? Councilman Avotte: Obviously you haven't been in the military. You never volunteer. :¥Iavo~' Jansen: I am about to nominate Avotte. This seems right up your alley. All those in Favor of, Councilman Ax'otte serving as the ~'etwesentatix'e say aye. Mayor Jansen nominated Councilman Ayotte to serve as the elected official from Chanhassen on the TH 212 Corridor Management Public Advisory Committee. All voted in favor, except Councilman Ayotte who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 1. Teresa Burgess: Just for clarification, would the remainder of`the council like to have copies of'all con'espondence or would you like just f,or us to send it to Councilman As'otte and as he has. as he deems it appropriate to make all update at that time? Mayor Jansen: Depending on tile size of'the amOUllt of' inf,onnation. I think it's p~'obably appropriate to have him reporting to us..As long as he can keep it shorter than the packet. Sorry. Teresa Burgess' We will keep a file in engineering if there's any questions or somebody wants to check. Mayor Jansen: It's getXing late. can you tell? Sorry about that. Didn't mean to pick on you. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: PARK & RECREATION COMMISSION RECOMMENDATION TO PURSUE LOCATING A YMCA IN CHANHASSEN. Scott Botcher: I;11 f,ollow the technical request of Mr. Hoffman and that is I forwarded the commission's recommendation to the City Council. I don;t know if any of you have some inclination of what you would like to do with tile recommendation. My personal opinion is that I think there are some questions 74 City Council Meeting- Febl'ual'y 12, 2001 that need to be discussed and addressed and I think that if you have any interest at all in entertaining this, that we schedule this for a discussion at a time when we're all coherent. There's some basic questions that I have with Todd is that ifxve have a rec center, why do we want to encourage a YMCA for competition? Why don't we just sell them our rec center. All these different types of questions, and answers fi'ankly that I don't have. I don't know. Councilman Peterson: Or there's lnultiple, or there's pending multiple for profit businesses that are still taxable that want to come in. Scott Botcher: Absolutely. Councilman Ayotte: It's too important not to talk about. Rod Franks: Point of information Mayor. I am the designated Park and Recreation representative to be available to the council and the Mayor to answer any types of questions that may be available. May'or Jansen: Thank you Mr. Franks. Appreciate it. Scott Botcher: So that's sort of my report. It's up to you all. I've done Todd'sjob and. Mayor Jansen' I guess when I went through this. one of the things that popped to me is that tile YMCA does have a feasibility study that they put into place, or they execute to, as it states, to evaluate the program and facility ,leeds and desires of the community. I maybe see that as an excellent vehicle for them to be able to get more specific about what the need and feasibility is in the community. So they could actually deterlnine that on their own seeing that they have an interest in coming into Chanhassen. I543' thought as far as what the commission has requested as far as the community survey is that we may potentially want to leave those questions more general in nature and related to the different issues, l'ecreationally I guess an exalnple I'd throw out is the community more in favor of a golf course versus a community center? \Vhe,'e it's going to rank amongst tile needs and recreational issues in general. And that the YMCA would be able to go lnore after the detail of what that facility should be all about. From thei,' feasibility study. But those were the two things that popped out as I went through the report. Councilman Ayotte' Well tile other part of it is I'd like to see the community survey validate the YMCA study. So it'd be a conlplimentary type of thing. Mayor Jansen: Well I don't know that the community survey would get as specific. If there was one general question as to interest in a YMCA, that might be lnore appropriate with the general questions again going to what are the facilities. What are the recreational needs in general, because the survey's meant to be more gene,'al and not at all specific to type of. Scott Botcher: Understood. We can certainly touch on the issue in the survey. Councihnan Ayotte: I'm too tired to beat it up tonight. Scott Botcher: No, I don't' think we're in any condition to do it but, because I think the discussion ~vill be rather lengthy in itself. And I think you can talk to Park and Rec officials and Todd and whoever but I've just started fi'om a fundamental position as to, do we partner with a for profit organization like they've done in other cities? Encourage them to come in and generate tax revenue. Do we set, you know work to set the YMCA up and if we do, are we setting up somebody to compete directly with our own rec 75 (Pity Council Meeting- February 12, 2001 center that we've worked very, very hard to get close to tile break even point? All those types of very basic organizational questions that I think you ought to chew on a little bit. Mayor Jansen' So are you suggesting that you need to prepare a more detailed staff report or are you wanting this to be pa~x o£ our discussion with the commission in a joint meeting? Scott Botcher: We can prepare a more detailed staff report you know directing the staff report towards sort of the issues that maybe Todd and I and you all can forward to us ifypu want us to address. I guess if you have no interest in talking about, you can tell me that. If you have an interest in doing that. we can formulate a staff report and put it on the agenda fora future date. Councilman Ayotte: I'd rather just sit down and talk with tile commission to tell you the truth. Scott Botcher: And you can do that as well. But it's entirely up to you all how you want to approach it. Mayor Jansen' Let's have it on our agenda as part ofthe general discussion with the commission and if we need a second joint meeting, we can certainly do that. But those joint meetings are set up for like March 5th, Scott Botcher: Then l ' ll hold oFf on a staFF report til you guys talk. Max'or Jansen' Yeah, Scott Botcher: Sounds good. March 5~. Mayor Jansen: Okay. So then vou must have been assigned to point 10aswell. COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT BLOCK GRANT UPDATE. Mayor Jansen: Yep. Just the memo's in there. We can compete for the CDBG grants, unless you all sa,-,' no. Kate is going to submit all application on behalf of what's been called Powers Ridge Senior Housing, which is that one unit that will just be for seniors. Or, she's going to apply roi' both. Presbyterian Homes which we haven't really talked about at len~h but at this level but we have had some discussions about, xx ith Presbyterian Homes people to go into Villages on tile Ponds roi' some senior housing and one unit possibly being the dementia unit, which will be for all of tls. But, not really. So unless you guys have a problem, we're at least going to throw out hat in the ring and see i£we can get some flee money. Mayor Jansen: If everyone okay with pursuing tile two senior housing projects? Councilman Avotte: Absolutely. Absolutely. Mayor Jansen' So be it. Councilman Peterson' That's like 50 grand on average? Scott Botcher: Yeah. I just have to work with, Presbyterian Hornes. Just mention that. I won't go into any detail. 2-26. The rest of you folks, Craig you're going to be gone? The 26~1~? Councilman Peterson: Yes. 76 City Cotmcil Meeting- February 12, 2001 Scott Botcher: Okay, so Craig's gone. Anyone else? Mayor Jansen: Stevejust said keep it short. Scott Botcher: Okay, I'll do my best. Mayor Jansen: He is planning Oil going out of town? Scott Botcher: He wants to blow out of town. And then on Fairview Hospital, similarly to what I COmlnunicated to Steve. I know you all have all been contacted by Fairview. Craig called me with the question today on the agenda so we sort of had our Fairview discussion today. But I guess I'd recommend that if you have a chance to talk to either myself or Todd Gerhardt, give us a call in the next couple days and we can talk about Fairview. Linda knows so she doesn't have to but you and Mark might want to talk to us about Fairview. Mayor Jansen: And they're scheduled to come in. Scott Botcher: March 12th. Mayor Jansen: March 12'h. Councilman Ayotte: I didn't get back to that person. Mayor Jansen: Talk to them first. And otherwise they are scheduled for March 12th fora council discussion. Scott Botcher: So that's all I have so thank you. Mayor Jansen: Thank you. Any correspondence discussion? Motion to adjourn? Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Kroskin seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion ca,'ried unanimously. The CiD' Council meeting was adjourned at 11:22 p.m. Sublnitted by Scott Botcher City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 77 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JANUARY 23, 2001 Chair~voman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Fred Berg, Mike Howe, Rod Franks, Jim Manders, Jar Karlovich, and David Moes MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Approved as presented. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. 'DISCUSS THE POSSIBILITIES OF LOCATING A YMCA CENTER IN CHANHASSEN. Hoffman: Thank you Chair Lash, memberS of the commission. I'll go over briefly"the documents that were distributed in this packet. At the request of the commission this was originally scheduled for January 9th. That evening ran late. Tabled it until this evening. Brian Hubbard has responded to the three questions posed to him. What acreage is needed to build a YMCA? His answer or response, most are situated on 8 to 12 acres of land. The second question is the planning and construction time line? And he goes through that and what the total there is about 2 years. Little more thm~ thatl Almost 3 years. Then what are the top benefits the YMCA to the local community and then he gives a broader answer. Talking about the uniqueness of the Y. The mission driven organization, community focus, leadership, etc. If you were to ask Kevin McShane the day of the Chamber meeting it was because you can have a piece of ice sheet in it. That's a paying benefit to a YMCA. They have a pool and the other people that chimed in and says yeah, we pay the same kind of taxes as any other town and we want those facilities so that's what we get out of the Chamber meeting. The final item was the map that Kate Aanenson and I put together. Chanhassen, oh probably 5 or 10 years ago was 'known as a land rich community. It is no longer a land rich co~nmunity. There are limited sites. These sites are located all on the south side of Highway 5 and basically along the corridor between Audubon Road and Highway 41. And as noted, most of these sites would, or all of them work out, would work out as far as a location. Some of them are already under development pressure. The intersectiOn of 41 and 5, the south and west side is being looked at by Fairview for a medical center. There are other uses being contemplated on other parcels as well so. That's the background information that the commission was presented and that's really all staff has to present to the commission prior to opening it for your discuSSion. Lash: Okay, thanks Todd. Is there anyone want to throw out some questions first to Todd? Maybe just kind of open this up. I think this... Franks: If there an order in which you want to kind of deal with the general areas of'questions like land or facility or where we want to go? Hoffinan: Jail can decide that. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23, 2001 Franks: Jan? Lash: What? Franks: Do we xvant to break this discussion down? Lash: Any way you want Rod. What works for you? Franks: Well l'm a linear thinker and so. Lash: Okay. ,go ahead. Franks: Grasping like a discussion maybe of what ty'pe of facility would took. or and then more ora discussion of what possible areas would work and then move into a discussion about the type of' facility. Lash' Okay. Hoffman: Process. Franks: Process. I'd like to open then with tile basic kind of report. If we could entertain a discussion amongst the commission about possible sites roi' the YMCA. Lash: Do ;'ou want to start us offf?. I think you have some thoughts. Franks: I do have a couple of thoughts. Are you going to put tile map up on tile? There's 2 parcels that I was interested ill. A couple of parameters that I set when I was looking at these places was to stay as close to downtown or population area so it's integrated into the more downtov,'n area. And then to stay close to tile Highway 5 corridor as well so it's accessible to both north Chan and south Chan as well. Deals them equal sense 0foxwmrship. Also Highway 5 is a conduit going east and west as welt to draw ill members of the other communities, Victoria and Eden Prairie. The piece that really struck me first was the kind of triangular shaped piece offPowers Boulevard to the west of Lake Susan. And Todd as I understand it, that little kind of trapezoid kind of piece right to the south and west of that, is that parkland already? Hoffman' Yes. Franks' And does that follow that. Hoffman: Creek. Franks' The creek. And so ~vho currently owns that? Hoffman: ...tile originator of tile NordicTrak. Lash' Where are you? I'm lost. Hoffman: Right there. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23,2001 Hoxve: That's the railroad tracks just north of it there? Franks: Yeah. Karlovich: Where is tile park land? Hoffman: Park land is right here. Franks: And then it goes across of course Powers into the Lake Susan Pai'k. And what I liked about that was it's on Powers Boulevard, which is a nice, big 4 lane divided and then connected to Lake Susan Park makes it kind of nice. And it's still pretty really convenes to that ~vhole downtown area. Hoxv much land is that parcel? Is that a little bit more than 8 or pretty close? Hoffman: It's larger than 8. I don't have the exact size. It's probably closer to 12. Franks: Now is that, I hate to even ask this question. I could look in the map but is this parcel included in any of that Bluff Creek area? Or is that tributary into Lake Susan or that creek, is that? Hoffman: No. Different xvatershed. Franks: Different watershed, okay. So we're safe. l-Ioffman: ...on this propetxy. \Voods as well. Tile building itselfxvould be somewhat tucked away up on top of the hill, which is, not much people need to see... They're going to know xvhere it's at. Franks: Is it a usable site for that considering the parking and everything that need to occur? Looking at the topography. Hoffman: Sure. That's why we picked it. Franks: The other one of course is over by that business park. Hoffinan: Which one? Franks: Up on top of. Hoffinan: 5 and 41 ? Franks: Right by your finger. South of there. Right up on top of the hill there. Isn't that where that oak knoll is? Hoffinan: Yep. Lash: But that's not part of the Smith Memorial Park now? Hoffinan: No, it's an industrial lot that's part of the Arboretum Village. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23,2001 Franks: Right, and so I thought that'd be another nice spot close to 41 and 5, and then right next to Memorial Park too so it'd be a really nice setting. Those are just some of my thoughts about possible sites. I'd like to hear other people's thouglnts too. Karlovich: I have a question for Todd. If money wasn't ali issue, what do you think would be the best site? Hoffman: Different variables. Both of those sites are very nicely situated in natural resource settings which are a benefit to oh, kind of the tnow you feel once you;re tlmre. Oui of those two I like the one to the east simply because it's centered a bit more in the area of Chanhassen. And then the sites that are up around. 1,2arlovich' Do they need Highway 5 visibility is kind of'? Hoffman: Yeah. These sites. 1.2.3, 4 that would have some Highway 5 visibility. And then tlmse two. the txvo that are situated around the wetland complex are also a pretty nice size as fat' as being able to put a YMCA and xx. ho knows what's going to be there but you're going to have some outdoor activity wlnere people are going to be able to either look out at large expanses of windows or be outside and look over a natural resource area rather tlmn looking over Highway 5 or tile street. So these four sites offer some of that. These four sites offer more visibility and also the, presumably more expensive due to the Highway 5 fl'ontage. Karlovich' Do you have any idea like in price per square foot, what the difference is? Do we know? That prime property right oil Highxvay 5, I mean is that like twice as much or do we have any' clue? Hoffman: I wouldn't know at tlnis time. I didn't look at that. I didn't make a...point of pricing out property. $2.00 to $4.00 per square foot at least. And a little bit lnigher than that up on Highway 5. Franks: Do you know what the underlying guiding or zoning is for these properties just off tine end ah'eady? \Vould they need a zoning of institutional? Hoffinan: All of them would accommodate a Y. Frank: All ofthena would accommodate? Hoffman: That's why they were selected. That's why I included Kate in ttmt process. Manders: My opinion is ttiat that first site that Rod mentioned was my top vote getter for location and tying in with tile current park structure and you know visibility to downtown. Lash: That was tiny thought too. That was my first choice. Accessibility. We've got a trail system there on Powers. I think it'd be a nice setting too with the woods. It would give it a nice feel or essence. Moes: Well speaking for northeast Chanhassen, it would certainly be in a prime location as far as access is concerned versus getting too much farther down the Highway 5 corridor. This is a, they're looking at the available lots, the closest ones to northeast Chanhassen. I know tlmre is strong interest in a YMCA up in that area. People that I've talked to. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23,2001 Lash: I guess I xvent more with accessibility xvhen I did my choices and because of that I wasn't really even thinking price and I wasn't thinking vista so I ~vas looking the ones more along Highway 5, with the one closest to Lake Ann as my second choice but given from Todd's input about the wetlands and the ones down, is that Galpin? No, Audubon? Hoffman: Audubon. Lash: Audubon. You knoxv those xvould have some pluses too. I just think they'd be more difficult to get to then the one on Powers. Hoffman: Well and you al~vays have views of Lake Susan. Franks: Right, fi'om tip on top of the hill. Howe: And you're near fields too. I mean ball fields, soccer fields, archery. All that stuff is there with that one. Hoffinan: Yeah, I think this exercise is more about just showing that there are possible sites and less about which site at this time. Lash: So xvhat xvould be our options as far as trying to somehow acquire a piece? Hoffman: Again I think that's discussion is probably premature ofxvhere we're at with this process. Lash: But if we want to go forward. I mean if we want to go forward, but in the end I want ;to Spend weeks and weeks talking about doing this only to find out that there's no possible funding source. To try to get property. Howe: Well there's not until we raise money, right? Isn't that one of the catches? There had to be fund raising. Wasn't that xvhat we talked about? We have to have an organized effort. Lash: We would? Howe: Well not we but the Y. Lash: Yeah but they want tis to pony up the property so. Franks: That's what they would like. Lash: Well yeah. Hoffman: I xvould not know what the mechanisms for the joint powers would be. Again that's all negotiable as Brian has always stated. If the commission would like to make a recommendation to the City Council and investigate this, I think what needs to be kept in mind is the timing. The City Council is very interested in a community survey and they're not going to do anything until that community survey is completed and so if you're interested in pursuing this, I would recommend that you talk about some, sort out some of the issues. Send a recommendation up to the City Council to include the YMCA in their community survey. I believe they've got a timeline set for the first quarter or first half of 2001 to get that Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23. 2001 done. I don't think this fl'eshman council is going to move forward on pursuing acquisition ora Y site without some tbedback fi'om the community. Berg: I think that would only help us. Lash: Yeah. and that would be a perfect oppommity For us. Berg: Great opportunity. Lash: So good timing. Franks: Well and good to know that if it's not something that the community is really interested in that we waste a lot oFtime on it. Hox~e: Right. that's also true. Berg: But >'ou know they will be. That's the beauty of it. They will be really in favor of it. Karlovich' Well I think the question would have to be worded to make sure that they understand that a can offer. All the different Facilities that would be there possibly. Franks' What types of Facilities would, I mean as a commission who's represented kind of the interest of people as t~r as recreation and parks, what kinds of Facilities would we be interested Berg: Pool. I think xx'e start with a pool Hoxve' Water park. Pool/xvater park. Lash: Fitness. Franks: Indoor? Indoor water park? Karlovich: Well the one that I have in mind is just the Lifetime in Plymouth that has. I don't think it has an indoor water park but, Franks: It does, It has the indoor zero entry pool with a water slide, And then some other. Lash: It had a lap pool because that didn't.., Franks: Yeah. that was separate. And then it had a dive pool. That was separate, In their aquatic center I think there were 3 separate pools. Karlovich: And then there were ice sheets next to it, weren't there? Franks: Two ice sheets, Lash: And then there was outdoor aquatics. Franks: And then there was an outdoor pool and water park as well. Zero entry pool, Park and Rec Comlnission Meeting - January 23, 2001 Berg: The ice might be something that this district would be interested in looking at with us too. Franks: And what ~vas nice, what I liked about that Lifetime Fimess in Plymouth is, it overlooks that whole wetland area and so when you're out there in that outdoor pool, I mean you have this really nice view all around. Lash: How about a pool? Would the district be interested in a pool? The. y don't have a pool at the high school. Berg: They don't generally have them at high schools. There's not going to be one at the 9th grade building either. I don't knoxv that they would like, I can't speak for them but I don't know that they would be. I think they're. Lash: You think the middle school is adequate? Berg: I think the middle school is adequate for what they need now. Pools generally are like that. Manders: Is it so important that we discuss necessarily the amenities of this in terms ofxvhat should be on that survey? But to consider how lnuch people are xvilling towards this such as X number of dollars per $100,000 of property taxes or something like that? Karlovich: My question was just kind of the worry about, would you like to have a YMCA in the city and then have not a real good response because people really didn't understand. Franks: What it would be. Karlovich: What it would be so that was kind of the fear I had withjust a survey question. Manders' Yeah I agree. Lash: And possible amenities would include. Could include and we could maybe list, check ones that they'd be the most interested in or prioritize or something. Berg: I think we can scale down the size a little bit because I don't think xve need a lot of meeting rooms. The new library's going to take care of that. So that would help in terms of keeping the square footage down a little bit. Because I knoxv they provide a lot of those things too, which we might not need. Hoffman: If Ron were here he would say performing arts. Franks: Well that's a very nice theater that the Chaska Community Center has. Very nice. Berg: Very small. Lash: Well that's certainly something that could go on the list you 'know. And if there appears to be, if it's one of the, you know I don't know how many numbers down we want to go to find out top priorities for people. I suppose people who have done surveys would know better. I'd say 5. Then you take. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23, 2001 Manders' \Ve've done surveys in tile past. Has there been anything in terms of a community center type question on past survey's? Hoffman: Tile last survey had that question on it. Manders' Do you recall what was involved? \Vas it a single question, >'es or no or did it expand on? Hoffman: I'll rull upstairs and grab it. Lash: You know the other thing, information that I suppose could be provided is, v~:ould you be interested in a Y? This would be the kind of amenities that could be included and you know would you yourself be interested in being a member knowing that, what are the dues? $45.00 or something a month. Yes or no? I mean some people might be interested in having a Y there just to be able to go occasionally and swim or just sign up for swim lessons but would have no interest whatsoever being a member. And that'd be helpful for us to know. Probably for the Y to know also. And also would they think it would be in their best interest as a citizen For it to be a joint effo~x between the city and the Y. Knoxving that there could be some advantages to being a resident. Franks: I think if we had, i like that if there's some way' that the council and us as well could get a sense that the citizens would really like the city to pa~tnership with a group like the YMCA. that would really go a long way in creating a working relationship. Because then they'd feel like they really have some mandate to really move forward in that direction. Hoxve: Oile of the differences in a Y and a Lifetime is some of the programs that come out ora Y. I don't know hoxv, it's going to be hard to surve> I think. Maybe we need to just gauge if there's inlerest before you go into, what would you really what your Y to have and do you realize that there's programs here like davcare and classes and swim lessons and a lot of things that in a survey I think you're going to maybe lose people if you, and I think they're very impo~xant questions but I think it's important including in the whole mix. That Y's can.do more than just a Lifetime, okay. And that's what he's alluding to here, Brian. But I think that's impo~xant to get that message out too. Karlovich: I think the input that I get fi'om at least my neighbors, is that they're either driving to Northwest on 62 or they're going down to the Chaska Community Center and an>~hing, whether it was Lifetime or the Y or an>¢hing, would just be a breath of fl'esh air for them to have something in ou::' communit>'. Berg: The one thing that's going to have to be discussed is xvhat we do with the Rec Center. Well maybe xve can again, work out a deal somewhere with something. Someone or something. Some organization. Franks: Because the possibility exists that we run that business right out of town basically by opening up a big facility like that. Jerry, what's your... Ruegemer: I mean that certainly is a possibility. I'm not sure that...as meeting rooms and that sort of thing but you know our bread and butter is fimess out there. Where we make a majority of the revenue. And the gym of course but we don't really make money on the gym but it's certainly a community asset. And I mean I think that thought was always there in case something should happen, you know the school district would certainly be interested in talking. Franks: You don't think they could use the space? Park and Rec Commission Meeting- January 23, 2001 Ruegemer: Oil I'm sure they can use the space. Franks: I'm being funny. Karlovich: I thought that one dance studio wanted rnore room too. Franks: Well the dance depal'tment or the dance program, they want like a lot more room. Yeah. . Ruegemer: But I mean that certainly is a possibility. I mean that certainly has to be discussed. You know we could be cutting our own throats certainly but. Berg: I think that'd be one of the things the council's going to come back with right away. What about the Rec Center? Franks: Well the other thing though is we operate that at a loss every year. Lash' I can't imagine it'd be difficult to rent out the space, and at the very least to, I don't know who but daycare facility. You know maybe the school. Does Bluff Creek, your kids don't go there? Do they have school age child care program there? Before and after? Howe; I don't know. Franks: My guess is tile school district would snap that building up. Hoxve: I would think they're desperate for space ill those grades, that they'd be interested. Karlovich: It seems as a commission it seems like we should look at the big picture and I think that space there would get used up pretty quickly and we should look at what's best for the community as a whole, not bypass this opportunity. Lash: I don't think anybody was suggesting that. I just think we need to cover the bases because we need to pre-plan roi' that question because that question is going to come. So we just need to deal and prepare for it. Do you have any thoughts Todd? Hoffman: The recreation center? Lash: Yes. Franks: Out' concern is that, you know if we go forward and push for another fitness center to come into town at that kind of scale, that we push the recreation center right out of business. Hoffman: Out of business, what does that mean? Franks: Well since most of the revenue from the recreation center comes from the fitness operations. And people will look at how they can spend their dollar and get, I'm assuming from a YMCA would, at least what I envision would staff, or have equipment, much bigger equipment area and more fitness availability and that kind of thing. That people would go spend their money than spending it at the rec center. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23, 2001 Hoffman: There's always been that discussion. Tile recreation center operations may change. They may evolve into SOlnething else. They may lease the building back to the school district. You sell the building back to the school district. Really the recreation center is a meeting room center and an extra gym and a couple of small rooms. So xve take the 35 pieces of equipment out of the fitness room and close it doxvn and make it dance or aerobics or turn it into a dance studio. Many things could happen there. The one thing, xvhen you think about the building itself, we also need to remember Nye have a 20 acre park on that site. And so if we walk away fi'om the building you're still left with a 20 acre park that I don't think the school district is going to want to take over. With the win'ming house and a double set of hockey boards and those type of things. That's not to say we can operate that independently. You do that here up at Chan Elementary so. I think all questions that need to be answered and thought about, to be a responsible proposal. Once you sa).', tell the community you're going to build a YMCA, you're also going to have to tell theln, because they're all going to be thinking, well what are you going to do with the Rec Center so it's going to have to be discussed and thought up. The question in. 52 golf course. These stand for strongly suppo~t, somewhat support and then you go into tile opposed column. So we get the Full blown recreation center. That's 55. And so you have 51 on the side of the strongly or somewhat support. 42 on the other side. Lash: For ice. that's way over 50%. 75%. Berg: \Vl'~elq xx'as this done? Hoffman: This was '97. January of '97. Franksl What are the numbers down at the? Hofflnan: These numbers are support on this side and oppose here and then this is don't know or don't care. Franks: But it looks like, so it's 29 and 27 support the construction ora full service community center? Hoffman: Oh you're right. We're down there further. Franks: Yeah. so it's higher than 56. Lash: That's what I was looking at for the ice. That's what I thot~ght was tile ice. Karlovich: Now you say the middle one doesn't support it? I just remember back to surveys and statistics and the central tendency of people to pick in the middle. Berg: It seems to me, remembering again fi'om statistics when we did the referendum, that that negative is pretty high. Those are the ones who are definitely going to vote, I want to say that we were looking for a 2/3 support before we went to the referendum. Was that right? Hoffinan: I recall it was 2/3 but throughout the entire, this is the executive summary. It states that Mr. Morrish did not recommend as you recall, that we move forward with the referendum because of the negative tax.., and the task force and commission I recall struggled with that and they eventually moved forward. These numbers were more favorable than the remainder of the, as I recall. Some of these numbers.., were a bit more favorable. The community center's the highest one here, is it not? 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23,2001 Moes: Yes. Berg: Yeah, just to play devil's advocate. The larger number on the disagree still bothers me though because those at 56% is all for it until they figure out they have to pay for it. The no's are not going to be no's no matter what it is. Lash: The flip side of that is, this is a community center versus a YMCA so it wouldn't be all community funded. So this is a little different scenario to the taxpayer. Berg: Right. Absolutely...offer more than a community center in terms of programming. Franks: Without having to worry about running it in the red year after year. Berg: Yeah. Hoffinan: The City Manager is currently interviewing Bill Morris who did this survey and some other firms to get an idea of what a community survey is going to involve in the city so these numbers will get fi'eshened up. Berg: So at this point do you want us to recommend that we have an item on the sm'vey regarding the, asking the community's interest Hoffinan: How would you express your interest in a YMCA project to council and recommend that they include that as questions regarding that in the survey. Lash: Okay. Does anybody have any additional thoughts that you want to add? Howe: Can we have some input on those questions? We need to have that I think. Lash: Well as an example in this particular one, and I guess I'd be confused why someone would separate indoor swimming pool fi'om a community center. I mean wouldn't that be a given that they'd be together? Or even the ice. Berg: It might be like a Richfield pool... Lash: I think ~ve'd be crazy to invest in an indoor pool without anything else. Berg: That doesn't say indoor. Oh, it does say indoor. Maybe they were just looking for a cheap. Lash: Besides if you go the whole...the whole thing. Have a pool. Have programming and have all the stuff listed there as one and not have them separated out. Hoffman: I can only anticipate that that survey was forwarded. They're going to be looking back to each individual question to look at their questions. There will be law enforcement questions on there. There will be street questions. There will be planning questions. Lash: so this would come back to us before? 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23, 2001 Hofflnan: I would think so. I don't know for sure. Berg: Well I would move that we first recomlnend, first let tile City Council or tell tile City Council that we are interested in pursuing looking at a YMCA in the city of Chanhassen. And secondly that we have questions on the community survey that is going out concerning, testing community interest on said YMCA. Lash' Okay, is there a second? Was that a lnotion? Berg: Yes. Hoxve: I'd second that. Berg moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommends to the CiD' Council that the Park and Recreation Commission is interested in pursuing locating a YMCA in the City of Chanhassen and asks that questions be placed on the upcoming community survey to test the community's interest in a YMCA. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. 2001 LAKE ANN BEACH LIFEGUARD CONTRACT. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Lash. members of the commission. On all annual basis we do review tile summer contract for tile Lake Ann beach provided by the Minnetonka Community Education Services. It's that time of year again. Before you tonight is tile, kind of updated contract with tile updated percentages and totals itl that included for your approval tonight. As you can see, the contract does include tile total expenses of the program, and that includes benefits, the supervisors, expenses, those sort of things. Postage.. printing, cellular phones, pagers, uniforms, all that is included itl the contract itself. The City's 2001 total expenses is the same percentage as last year, 29.53%. That's basically in the, based upon that percentage tile total lifeguard bill for 2001 would be $22,791.63. Basically if the contract is approved with ttiat total, this total would be divided into three different payments, and those are three equal payments of $7597.21. Basically Minnetonka Community Education Services sends an invoice for that alnount or whatever tile pre-determined payment would be assessed, invoice that and versus one lump sum we'd just pay that in three separate invoices. I.ash: Anyone have questions or comments for Jerry on this? Manders: I have a question. This $22,000 nunlber Oll tile fl'ont, how does that jive with the second page from tile back where it says lifeguard, $62,000? Under exhibitor. Ruegemer: What Minnetonka does with the, in Exhibit A, that's tile expense of the whole program. And it basically breaks out our percentage that, of the $77,000 on the bottom, 29% of that should equal the $22,761. Manders' Okay. Ruegemer: Jim, did you see tile other percentages for the other Exhibit BP Manders: Yeah. 12 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23, 2001 Lash: So if you total those all together it totals the $77,000. You okay Jim? Manders: Yep. Lash: Okay. Any other questions? Moes: Just curiosity, what was our dollar amount for 2000.9 Realizing the percentage ,,',,as the same, do you know offthe top Jerry? Ruegemer: It xvent up approximately $900 to $1,000 this year. Moes: Okay. Still sounds pretty reasonable then. Ruegelner: I xvas trying to go through my brain last year what it was and I think the difference was about $300 per payment. $300 or $400 so it's approximately $1,000. In that ballpark. Lash: I think given the 2000 beach season, we would be wise to keep our lifeguard services intact. Moes: Money well spent. Lash: Yes. Any other comments? Okay, is there a motion to approve this or recommend it? Anyone? Franks: I move that the Park and Recreation Commission approve the agreement for summer lifeguard services at the Lake Ann beach for 2001 as provided by the contract with Minnetonka Community Education and Services ill the dollar amount of $22,791.63. Lash: Is there a second? Moes: Second. Franks moved, Moes seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommends to approve the Agreement for summer Lifeguard Services at Lake Ann Beach for 2001 as provided by the Minnetonka Community Education and Services, in the amount of $22,791.63. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. RECREATION PROGRAMS: 2001 FEBRUARY FESTIVAL. Lash: Under recreation programs, reports and the first one is Corey's Feb Fest update. Anyone needing any more information or anybody wanting to comment on it? Ruegemer: Yeah I was just going to go through it. I was just going to kind of go through the report and see if anybody had any questions. Just a general overview. Coming up again on the 3rd everybody has pamphlets for that. Corey wanted me to ask, I know some of you are committed for the volunteering that day. I think I need to talk to Jim or Rod. See if you guys would like to participate somehow that day. Ally volunteer opportunity. We can talk after the meeting if you'd like and we could get you in. Franks: Hey, I've been there every year. 13 Park and Rec Comlnission Meeting - January 23, 2001 Ruegemer: And then Fred, Corey wanted me to let you know that he'll be in contact with you about the emceeing. Berg: Okay. Franks: So the radio station? Ruegemer: Tile>' changed formats. Franks: Oil yeah that's right. Ruegemer: And sort of kind of go out' own way... So Corey's been busy working o1'1 that. The contests will be similar as last year. Ticket sales are certainly going on right now with tile bulk of the ticket sales going on the ice that da3.'. Probably 60-70% of the tickets are sold on tile ice that da3" so last year sold approximately about 1.200 tickets. So we want to beat that this >'eat' so. Lash: So if)'ou had your druthers, does it make life easier if you sell them ahead of time or doesn't it really matter? Ruegemer: It would make us breathe a little easier. It's not such a crap shoot but we certainly understand that. I mean it's been pretty consistent in tile last 3-4 years since we moved to Lake Ann. 'That we're up around that 900 to 1.100 range. 1.200 range so. Franks: Call l just lnake a suggestion about sign-up, and I don't know if this would work or not but I knoxx the years that I've signed people up when it's cold, tile pens don't work so I don't know if using pencil would work or SOllle kind of a writing implement that is temperature sensitive. Ruegemer: Even with tile felt tip pens? They don't work? Moes' Well after a while no one puts tile cap back on because they're filling out and running. Franks' I don't know what the deal with that and then they could use pencils to fill out the forms. It gets so cold that tile pens quit working. Last >,eat' they worked fine. It was warm. Lash' It was warm, yeah. But if. this is just an idea and it may be it would screw everything up but if it makes life easier to have people pre-register, maybe you want to sell the pre-register tickets for less than on tile ice. Hoffman' We used to do that. It didn't make a difference. Lash: No? Okay. It didn't matter? Hoffman' 2 bucks doesn't matter to anybody. Ruegemer: People want that flexibility to see what the da), is going to be like. Berg: Do you know if you changed the prize board so that... 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23,2001 Ruegemer: I xvas going to bring up, if you had any suggestions. I know we had talked about it a little bit before, but refresh me. Lash: Well remember we were doing the every 30 second thing and we almost lost our minds so. Ruegemer: Well that changed. Lash: Last year it went better and I think we did, and what did xve do? We wrote them and then we had a runner or took the numbers up and posted them and then the emcee was'announcing which helped. But one of the things that makes it tough is if they come up to us and say, you knoxv I won. I won. You kno~v just give us their number and we've got 500 numbers written down. It can take forever so I think the 4th of July seems like it's easier because of the timing and they can look at the prize board and say I xvon. My name was read at 7:05 and it's easier for us to find it than when we all we have is their number. Kariovich: That's what I'm signed up for, isn't it? And I saw Cheetos or hot chocolate or something. Lash: No. we really can't... Ruegemer: Would it be helpful to put numbers on the boxes? Going across somehow and say I won prize number 10. It's a gift certificate to Houlihan's. Would that help? Lash: If it matches the thing that. -_ Ruegemer: Is pulled. Lash: Right. So if it's done consistently so that we can just look at our record and see yeah, this number matches here. Berg: It would also be easier if we could combine the prizes and not have them every 30 seconds. Lash: Well we didn't do that last year. No, I think we backed offand did it. Ruegemer: I think we just drew a bunch at a time and then every. kash: 5 minutes or whatever. I think we drew 10 every 5 minutes or. Berg: If they had some easy way to look at the board and could come up to us and say I have prize number 8. Ruegemer: Well we can certainly correspond what it says on the board onto an 8 1/_ x 11 sheet of paper as far as number sequences, we can do that. You want to try that? Lash: Yes. And then I think last year too we did, didn't we combine and we didn't have as many little prizes? Or we talked about that at one time. Berg: I think we talked about that for this time. 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23,2001 Lash: For this time? Okay. You know we had a lot of little grab bags when they opened it up and then there's, as Fred said there's a sinker and a bobber or something. It doesn't seem like it's hardly worth coming over to the table. So don't know what you have. Ruegemer: It's wo~% at least $5.00. Your entry fee. Lash: It is? Okay. Berg: Because we have a lot oL oh~ Lash' Not impressed. An3~hing else on that? I thought the new, I read about the medallion hunt. I think that sounds Ruegemer: They're having a nice prize for that. Lash: Yeah, it's like $700 or something. That kind of gets community involved even if they're not real hot on the fishing contest thing so I think that's cool. Ruegemer: There are other ways to get involved so. That's our goal is to become the St. Paul Winter Carnival. Lash' Well we're getting there. Berg: Yeah. it's a good goal. Lash: Anyone else'? Okay. Well tell Corey good job. Good luck. We'll be there. 2001 4TM OF ~'LY CELEB~TION. Ruegemer: Coreyjust wanted to let you know, kind of what's been going on up to this point with the 4th of July. The dates of the events that are going to be coming up this year in 2000. As you know Casablanca ah'eady is booked for this year. We did that back in August I think of last year. And Corey's going to get through Feb Fest here first before he really staIxs hi~ing it but he's kind of geeing things together ah'eadv for concession vendors and talking to people. Talking to concession people ah'eady as far as geeing maybe a couple more vendors down here to kind Of create a festive atmosphere. Berg: Are xve selling Dippin Dots? Lash: I was going to say I have two words for Corey. Ruegemer: Dippen Dots? Lash: Dippen Dots. Oh how about no carnival. Karlovich: It was at the Excelsior A~xs Fair. Lash: I know. See, and they were out at Carver County Fair. You know they mal<e it to some of these places so. 16 Park and Rec Com~nission Meeting - January 23, 2001 Berg: And no roxvdy carnies. Franks: I agree. No rowdy carnies but a wonderfully clean and fun carnival ride atmosphere. Family amusenlent area would be wonderful. Berg: And every xvorker has to have 5 fingers on each hand. Lash: Didn't we also talk about last year, I'm having a flashback of sort of child center, adult center format where if xve were going to, we needed a spread out. It seems to m~ like we needed more space and we talked about maybe more of the kids stuff up here and we also talked about potentially having baseball bats again. We thought that might be worth gMng around again. It was very popular back whel~, didn't the Rotary used to do it? Hoffinan: Yes. Lash: I think it was very popular. People liked that a lot. Yeah, I did. And St. Hubert's might want to put it on. It's a huge fund raiser. They make a ton of money, so. Ruegemer: Corey also is working on tile fireworks also and that so. We'll probably bring that in February. The contract for that so. Lash: Yeah, and we definitely talked aboutwe need more food vendors. We talked about a different way of grouping who xvas cooking the burgers and stuff last year, was that the Boy Scouts? Hoffman: Boy Scouts. Lash: You know it's confi~sing when they're set up on one side of the tent and other food vendors are somewhere else because you don't really notice and then the beer set-up was way... Ruegemer: I'ii shed a little light on that. We'd been encouraging the Boy Scouts to kind of do their own thing for as long as they've been doing it but they don't want to spend money on a tent or a trailer whatever and basically they take the fi'ee tent space for that just in case of rain or power and that sort of thing so we'll certainly try to have conversation with them to try to get them out. Lash: Well even if they were on tile opposite, the side of the tent where the food vendors are. That'd be more visible I think. Ruegemer: Well we'll take that into consideration. With the trade fair going on before hand and everybody getting set up, it's hard to coordinate all those efforts but we'll take a look at it. Lash: Yeah that's true. Berg: If the beer could even just be back a ways. Ruegemer: Away fi'om the tent? Berg: Away fi'om tile tent. Tile lines made it impossible to walk on that side. 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23,200I Lash: And that's because they werejust serving, they didn't have an efficient set-up but we talked about maybe they need to have a square set tip with people working tile middle and then people could come up on all Four sides of the workers instead oFjust one side because that just created such grouping and long lines. And people hate to wait. Franks' Two beer trucks. Hoffman: More beet' faster is all I can hear. Franks: Everybody told me. I say that funny but I did get eomlnents. It was so hard to get a pitcher of beer. Lash: And probably more of those little pitchers available too. Franks: I think they've learned. They'll be ready. Lash: And a lot of that's weather contingent too but this band is a huge drawing card for you know boozers so. Actually we went and saw them just last month, tile end of last month in Chaska. They were playing at the Chaska Balh'oom and it was Fun but it was a neighborhood group that went and several people said you know, it's just not tile same as the street dance. They just didn't have nearly as much tim so. I thought that was sort of' sad but cool at the same time. Franks' The parade, this will be tile first >'eat' now that the city will be. Ruegemer: No. To my kno~vledge what they're still going to be doing is. we put the ff~ll ainount, well there's money in the budget but they're still going to kind oFgo on their own and do their Fund raising. Then iFthere are shortfalls, then tile city will cover the shortfalls and therefore it won't be the Full $8,000 that they were looking for. Franks: Okay. Lash: Anything else? Moes: I was just trying to think when we did tile discussion right after the 4th of July last year. Was there discussion on, I mean we used the City Center area for like one day and we were going to try and expand that and utilize it For tile second day as well just so that,-I lnean we expend a lot of energy putting up tile tents and getting everything ready for kind of, really an evening crowd starting on the 3''d in essence but to ti'5.' and utilize that time and effort for activities on the 4th as well. Lash: We did talk about that and a lot of people after the parade started asking, well what's going on over there because they see the tents and they have an expectation that something else is going on. Moes: Right. Lash' I know at one time I suggested trying to, and it kind of pooh poohed but moving the trade fair thing to that day and having it, but you guys said that you really thought that the Chamber wants to keep it the night of the street dance but even if we had a Taste of Chanhassen or could we try an art thing or I don't know. 18 Park and Rec Commission Meeting- January 23, 2001 Berg: Hoxv about Bingo that day? Lash: I think people like to drink and play Bingo... Berg: How about go along with a Taste of Chanhassen? Lash: Yeah, could do that. Moes: I suppose you could push tile parade back til 11:00. Lasts til noon and they'll all feel comfortable because it's afternoon. Hoffinan: Tile whole issue of having anything on tile 4th that involves bringing in a whole lot of businesses or volunteers, it's a national holiday. Lash: Oh. The other thing it competes then with xvhat we're trying to do at Lake Ann Park too which is, that's another thing. Moes: I xvasn't sure if there was, I was trying to go back, if there were activities at Lake Ann Park that could be expanded or brought back up here and I just, I'm just kind of recalling our follow-up conversation after last year to see if there was a xvay to use the space because it is all set up. I can't think of anything off hand that it could be used for but I thought I'd at least throw it out. Hoffinan: A 2 day carnival, I think that was brought up. Franks: You know then you could give food vendors tile whole 2 day deal. I'm sure that'd be more attractive to them as well. Hoffman: We thot~ght about using tile tent but it was difficult. Ruegemer: Yeah for all tile reasons and then for staff wise too as far as if we're all busy doing somethil~g at Lake Ann and I'~n doing the parade and Corey's at Lake Ann and Todd's at Lake Ann. You know not that it can't be done but coordination certainly is an issue. Lash: Then it's just another whole day of events to try and plan and coordinate too so it's like double. Moes: Oh I understand. It's been you know, it's been brought up. There are a lot of activities, if we can spread them out but right, the coordination or thinking up new events I think would certainly be very difficult to do because there are plenty already going on. It doesn't matter that something was growing so big that you might want to move it. Lash: You kllow xve've never had an art thing. Arts and crafts. I don't know how you'd even begin to do something like that. Hoffman: It takes a real initiative and you start and you move on. These art fairs across the state are huge but they are 20 years old. There's a real tradition to them. And I also think if we're serious about that, we need to watch and see what happens with the library and the town square and what kind of a feel we're going to have down there and where's the event going to be in the future. Because I certainly think 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting- January 23, 2001 there's, we made a big investment in setting up those, all of those physical needs that are out there and if you can continue to use them the next day and... Lash: Well you guys can definitely kick around ideas too. You know maybe somebody's going to have a brainstorm that we haven't thought of. Berg: I see some of the things they do in Eden Prairie and they have an awful lot of outdoor festivals in Eden Prairie with Scooner Days and all those other things. Maybe we can get some ideas fi'om them. Franks: They have carnival rides at Scooner Days don't they? Lash: No. Berg: I don't believe they do. no. Hoffman' I just talked with...staff members over in Eden Prairie and they're taking a look al all of their f~stivals and they may in fact be dropping some or changing some because of the changing nature of the community. So these festivals are 15 and 20 years old and they're not. they don't have the appeal or the same l~el as they had 10-15 years ago so, things are changing. Lash' Okay, anF~hing else for festivals and celebrations? Okay. ADMINIST~TIVE: 2001 MEETING CALENDAR AND 2001 REPORT SCHEDULE. Lash: We've got our meeting calendar. Anybody see any obvious conflicts? With holidays or anything. I don't see anx~hing. Fred, you're going to be happy to hear this. I will not be here on the 27th. I have' parent teacher conferences. Berg: February9 Lash: Yep. Ho~ve: Nor will I. Berg: Oh boy. Lash' We get nervous now. Hoffinan: Down to 5. Lash: If anybody else is planning on missing, we'll be geeing, rtmning pre~ sho~ so. Anybody see anF-~hing else? Hoxve' Todd, the CAA as we know it is now they've changed that? I didn't hear about...baseball association. Hoffman: Well just the, yeah the baseball pa~ of it has changed. Berg: He so~l of violated the rules and jumped way ahead. 2O Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23,2001 Howe' Oh I'm sorry. I thought administration. I'm sorry. Lash: Do we need to vote on that calendar? Hoffman: No. I also have a second calendar which is the 2001 schedule for Park and Recreation Commission attendance at City Council meetings and on the back it has all of your terms, voice mail, faxes, e-mails. Lash: Thanks to you Norma for calling me today because our e-mail's been down for 2 weeks so I wouldn't have known. Karlovich: With regards to the scheduling. At least 3 volunteers on the 2nd and 4th Mondays I'm in Mahtomedi acting as their city attorney so I can't make it to these so if anyone's interested in March 12th, June 25th or September 24th. Lash: \Veil I can switch with you in June. That won't be a problem. And we don't have to attend, is that correct? Unless there's a park issue. Hoffinan' Correct. You'll be mailed if it's there. Lash' So why don't, I'll trade with you J. ay. -. _ Karlovich: Well I can't really trade. I mean every. Hoffinan: These are always 2nd and 4th. Lash: Oh. oh, oh, okay. Franks: Todd can you if something comes up. Lash: Just call one of us. Hoffinan: Okay, I'll just note those and if we've got a hot item that night I'll call the commissioners. Manders: As usual I mean you guys contact us if we need to be here. Otherwise it's a not. Hoffinan' Yep. We've added it on there an agenda and park commission items will be delivered to you a week prior to your assigned dates if they're on the agenda. It's just automatic. Lash' Okay, and then our next item is to move to go have quarterly reports from our managers and superintendents and whatever all the titles are so, does anybody have questions or comments on that? Sounds like a good idea. Any committee reports? Michael? Howe' Well Rod and I attended the first meeting in 2001 of the Dave Huffman Race Committee. Just want yotl to know. It's September 15th. We're moving ahead. 21 Park and Rec Commission Meeting- January 23, 2001 Lash: Okay, anybody else who's on a committee? We don't have very mall3: committees going these days. And our memorial committee is pretty much defunct now because that's pretty much just going, right? Hoffman: Yes. Lash: Okay. Commission member presentations? Anybody have anything fox' that? Berg: Well Michael and I attended tile City Council meeting last night an'd addressed the round house issue. I was speaking fox' myself. I felt pretty good xvhen we were done. I had a sense that they wanted to, there wasn't an axvful lot of sentiment to keep it when we started. If you couldn't sort of guess fi'om tile tone of the e-mail, you probably heard me screaming. Lash' Now you're going to have to back up. What e-mail? I don't get e-mails so... Howe: I've got a cop>; of it. Berg: Michael's got a cop>' of it. So we went up there and what they're going to do before they're, and fill in, before the:>' were willing to look seriously at spending $125;000 to renovate, they want to test the waters again in terms of the community'. They want to do another survey and get some feedback from them. Which seemed last night to be a pretty good compromise based on where it might be going. It looked like it might be going at the start. Hoxve: So it was 4 to nothing they tabled it. To get sonic more of that more input and if they could just refurbish the outside and leave the inside and if the lead paint was indeed a serious environmental hazard and that had to be looked into so. Hoffinan: They tabled it but only with one directive. They tabled it with tile thought that they may go out to the community in the future but all they asked for was a cost of not completing the entire project but just doing the outside. Berg: Fox' cosmetic appearances. Hofflnan: So they want to know that number first before they would go out and introduce the project to the neighborhood again. So we're working on that number. I don't support it. It's either in my opinion all or nothing, but we'll get that number to the City Council at their next meeting and then they'll have additional direction for staff. Karlovich: What is our expenditure down to then if no trail, no round house? I mean what are vce even doing in 20017 Hoffman: The playground out at Stone Creek Park and some other minor items. There's not a lot left. Lash: I was reading the e-mail so I wasn't able to multi-task. What did you say happened last night? Berg: They directed Todd to find out how much it would cost to work on tile exterior. To refurbish the exterior and not do anything to the inside. Lash: So what would be the point of that? 22 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23,2001 Berg: They wouldn't be spending as much money. Lash: But it also ~vould be. Berg: They ~veren't interested in hearing an3, discussion about xvhether that was a good thing or bad thing last night. They were, I had a sense they were, they wanted to discuss whether or not we should even continue the discussion or just raze it tomorrow. That's-being a bit overly dramatic. Lash: Okay, so what happened? They tabled it? Berg: They tabled it xvith the direction to Todd to come up xvith a cost for xvhat it would be to just refurbish the outside. But they also talked unofficially about redoing the survey of'the neighbors to see if ' they wanted to spend that kind of money to do, as one person said, just do the round house. Franks: You mean are you suggesting that they had an idea like, if there was $125,000 to spend, would that area prefer to spend it on refitrbishing the round house or would they prefer to spend it on like a hockey rink? Berg: Hockey rink, yes. Yes, that's exactly what. Franks: Is that kind of. Berg: That's exactly the sense that I got. Hoffman: Mayor Jansen heard fi'om neighbors while campaigning in that area that they wanted the park to be finished. 'They wanted the other components of the park to be finished, not necessarilythe round house. But it is ugly but we want more playground equipment. We want our hockey rink. Lash: I thought there was kind of actually a push against the hockey out there because we ended up putting that pretty Iow on the priority list because it seemed, as I recall, the neighbors weren't especially supportive of hockey. Hoffinan: Yeah, I presented the neighborhood, findings of the neighborhood meeting to the council last night. Number one was the playground. Number m,o was refurbishment of the round house. Franks: So they were presented with that information? Hoffman: Yes. Franks: Okay. Lash: But they still want to survey the neighborhood? Hoffinan: Well due to the cost, the escalating cost of the round house. The commission did mail a letter to the neighborhood, I think it xvas last July stating that the costs had escalated up to the $80,000 mark but the neighborhood at large is not aware that it is now at $120,000 price tag. Council believes they may feel differently. 23 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23; 2001 Lash: Well do we want to schedule a meeting and invite the neighbors Hoffman' Council may do that in the fi~ture. They haven't chosen to give that directive just yet. Karlovich' How long will the process take of doing another survey? Hoffman: Oh it'd just be a neighborhood meeting I think. Franks: So the council would direct us as a commission to hold a neighbcSrhood meeting. Is that what you're saying? Hoffman: Correct. And tile>, may or may not do that. Councilmember Peterson brought up that it should be stated in this new letter that you either come ill and talk about your desire to keep the round house or it's going to be torn down. That's what tile letter said last July and we had very little response at that meeting when you upped tile budget to $80,000 to determine to do that so., but we can try that again. Lash: So did anyone last night address the question that the city manager had regarding this project? Hoffinan' Yes. Lash' Okay. And did the City Council seem to understand that, you know, tile logic behind or tile emotion behind some of those reasons? Berg: The council was really split. You had one council person who seemed to be very much in favor o£ tile reconsmendation, and would have gone along with the idea. Another council member who doesn't want to spend the money to have it done. And then yotl have two in the middle who are willing to look at this. Ho£finan: Tile council as a whole, that council, tile new council as a wholejust has not been involved in tile. project, the 4 >,ear history so they just want to take some additional time to make sure that they're. Berg: And Michael did a really nicejob of pointing out that we're llOt a willy hilly group that goes out just fi'ivolously spending money and I was struck not only with how well you did with that but how the city I think and tile council doesn't know that because they don't know us at all. Half of them have never seen us in operation. So I walked out of there feeling that this is an okay compromise because again tile>', we have to build up their trust with these people too. Lash' So they're just basically trying to take some time then? Berg: Yeah it would be wrong to imply that I think it would be that there was some of sinister move here to delay things before we tear it down. I didn't get that sense at all. It seemed to be a very open, give and take. Hoxve: And they really wanted our opinions. I mean they debated this an hour and a half and they really, I mean a couple of the council members were very, you know we need to hear from Fred and Mike and gee good points Fred and Mike and I didn't really know that about this and, I was, they seemed open to listening to our views. Lash' Okay, so they want to get input fi'om tile neighborhood and then what? 24 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23,2001 Hoffman: No they don't. At this time they want to know what it would cost just to maintain the exterior of the building. Berg: It seems that the next step might be to get input from the neighborhood if, depending on what these numbers say. Lash: Well I don't have a problem I guess with getting more information but if in the end the building isn't functional for anything, then it's been patched back together so it's not an eye sore, I don't know that that's really serving the xvhole purpose of what we had in mind. If in the end we're still going to have to pay the rent to have a warming house out there, but the round house looks nice on the outside, that doesn't seem like it's functional. Berg: Depends on what tile numbers are. Howe: I think one of their proble~ns was, for, and I can't say I disagree with them. I think we're looking at more of. as Fred would say an advocate and this is historical and it's a beautiful building. It could be but I got the sense fi'om a lot of the members that alright, you want to spend $125,000. You've got 20 into it now. This is going to be a warlning house for 2 months in the winter and what are you going to do with it in the summer and I think there's uses for it in the summer but I don't think we can sa), for sure that oil yeah we'll have Bingo in there every Friday night. We don't know enough and I think they thought gee, for that limited use of what this may be, it's a lot of money. They kept going back to that. Lash: And what do we pay for warming house rental? For a trailer. Hoffinan: About $2,000 a 3,ear. Berg: So it'd be 50 years before we'd have it paid off. Hofflnan: They went through all the numbers. Karlovich: Did tile point get across though as to how much we normally budget for total programs in a year and where we are right now. It just seems like we're not really doing anything in 2001. We put a lot of things offto future years. We try to stay around a quarter ora million dollars and now we've had like our two biggest projects ill 2001 have kind of gone out the window, or at least are put off. I guess. Hoffinan: It was not brought up. I don't know that that would have any value. The council wasn't going to approve projects or change their minds simply because we're not doing the projects that were budgeted. They want to make sure that they feel comfortable with them. Lash: It's money well spent, yeah. You know one of the points that, and you guys maybe raised this. I'm sure Michael did eloquently last night but I look at Roundhouse Park as not just a typical neighborhood park because they are so isolated from town. That this is the only thing that those people out there have and we worked hard to try and finally get something out there so if we end up getting something that's a little bit special, you know that doesn't. Hoffinan: We talked that way. Lash: And I'm as cheap as tile next. 25 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January _o, 2001 Hoffman: Commissioner. Lash: Yeah. council member can be so, but I have a bigger heart for that particular park. Okay. Okay, well you'll keep us updated on that, right? And if you need more. l'm sorry, I'm not getting e-mails. I easily could have come last night so. Franks: Todd, just as I remember correctly, on our 5 year CIP. there's nothing else scheduled for that park. Hoffinan' Correct. Hoxve: That was brought up last night too. Hoflhnan: Due to the upfl'ont investment that you made. it's time to give the park a breather and move on to other things in the community. Lash: Okay. \Veil thanks for going last night you guys. Anything else under commission member presentation? Anyone? Now Mike. under the Administrative Packet. \Vas there something that caught your eye? 'Hoxx. e' Sorry [ rushed that. Todd explain to me this nexv. this CAA baseball. It's going to be combined xvitl~ Carver. Chaska and Chanhassen now so a bigger league I would sa>.'. Hoffman: Fairly. After Frank passed away there's been a lot ofjuggling of,, and fallout really of where these things, who's going to pick them up. Who's going to organize them and some folks that were involved with the baseball association or the baseball program said we're not quite happy with how this is going so tile>' met with the leadership of the (2AA and they said. here's what we'd like to do and they all agreed to combine. Howe: Thanks. Lash: Anybody else? Anvbodvhave anvthin_~else in this whole ' oo . ~ . . ~ thru=. Who's Robert Peterson? Hoffman: Yep, Bob Peterson. Bob Peterson was the Project Manager for both City Center and Bandimere Park. Franks: Where is Safari Island? Hoffman' West of Waconia and north ofHighxvay 5 at the new middle school. It's a new middle school and community center tied into one. Franks: So that ,,','as a city/school district collaborative effort. Lash: That will be kind o£neat to follow and just kind of see what kind of a go they make of it. Hoffman' They're starting fi'om scratch. Lash: Yeah. Will we be privy to that kind of... 26 Park and Rec Commission Meeting- January 23, 2001 Hoffinan: Oh sure. Chris...the new Parks Director is formerly from Eagan. We get together and chat and she started from ground zero. Franks: Do you have any idea offhand how much the city has invested into that project? Hoffinan: No, I don't. It's in the 4 to 8 million range. I'm not sure what exactly it is. Lash: How did they get the money to do that? Hoffinan: I don't know. Berg: Do you think that'd be a good field trip sometime? Hoffinan: Oh sure. Yeah, once they're up and running. Ruegemer: Just to give the commission an update. I did run into Para Mueller with the INT water ski show down at the Boat Show last weekend and they would like to do it again but there will be more ora formal presentation coming on the February commission agenda. It sounded like they xvanted to do tile first weekend in June. It did work out better for everybody. Lash: Hoxv'd it go last year? '_ Ruegemer: You know what? Really good. Lash: Good. Ruegemer: We didn't hear really ansrthing fi'om the residents on the lake so just to give you guys a heads up if you want to do any homework prior, I'm going to bring it in February. Hoffinan: The lake aerator went in today for Lake Susan. Oxygen is going down. It still is a safe level but it may dip below that. It's the first time in 3 years the aeration has gone in. Lash: Here's, you xvant these tonight and then are you going to reschedule that? Hoffman: Yes, xve'll reschedule for February. Lash: Anyone else have anything? Howe: Well Todd, one thing. Can you get us some time in front of the City Council just to tell them about the Dave Huffinan Race again? Hoffman: Sure. Whatmonth? Howe: I don't care. Just to tell them we're going to do it. Just a formality thing. We did the same thing last year. Hoff~nan: It's really busy itl February. 27 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23, 2001 Howe: March is fine. Berg: Why don't you schedule it for March 17 and then that ,,,,,ill take care of one of Jay's meetings. Howe: I'm still coining down fi'om last night. Hoffman: Good idea. I believe also the council is scheduling a work session with all commissions on March 5'~. So if you can check your calendar; I believe that's... Manders: [ wasjust going to ask a quick question if there was any feedback on the Villager article on the Fox property? Hoffman: No. Franks: That was a well done m~ticle. Really well written. Lash: Thanks Melissa. Hoffman: I called Eric. Instead of calling Melissa directly I called Eric. I thought she did a really nice job. We met there for a couple hours on the site. Took a long tour through the propelW. The background information that she came up with was more than anyone here at City Hall has known about the property with phone calls to the different people so. Lash: Okay, an?thing else? Karlovich: I guess I have one last thing. I got a couple of telephone calls fi'om Sue McAllister and I suggested that she contact you Todd to talk about any future preservation of her property and the proximity to Bluff Creek and I don't know if she called you or not. Hoffinan: She stopped by today. Karlovich: Okay. Hoffman: What I got out of the conversation is that Sue's in her mid 50's. She's looking to try to make something out of this property and this petting farm is going to take some pretty big capital to get that going. If in this future, this property could be in the hands of the City, would there be an interest in providing a down payment to allow her to invest in her petting farm. Maintain that for 10 or 15 years and then after that time period the City v,,'ould take ownership of the property for something like a living history farms. I don't know who's been at the Brooklyn Park, what's it called?...and I stated that that kind of an arrangement I would think would be the only kind that the City would be interested in. We would not want to run a petting farm and so she would need to run that idea past the commission so. And obviously in that kind of arrangement, for appointed or elected officials to go along with that, to tell the citizens that we're going to pay for property that we're going to gain access to in 15 years is almost a life estate type of arrangement. It has to come at a reduced price and so. she gets the benefit of an upfront payment and being able to utilize the land but then we get a reduced price in the future so, it's something that she ina3' be presenting to the commission iix the future. Lash: Thanks Jay. Anfthing else? Hearing nothing else, is there a motion to adjourn? 28 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 23, 2001 Howe moved, Moes seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 29