j. Park and Recreation Commission Minutes dated May 8, 1995CHANHASSEN PARK AND
' RECREATION COMMISSION
SPECIAL MEETING
MAY 8, 1995
Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m.
' MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Jan Lash, Dave Huffman, Jane Meger, Fred Berg, Jim
Manders and Ron Roeser
MEMBERS ABSENT: None.
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Supervisor; and Dawn Lemme, Recreation Supervisor
Andrews: Due to a possible confusion of published starting times, we'll begin with item 7
' which is program reports and we'll start at item 7 and go through item 10 and then we'll go
back to the beginning at that point.
PROGRAM REPORTS:
' A. PARK PRIDE DAY.
Ruegemer: Thanks Jan for helping out with Park Pride Day.
Lash: Oh you're welcome.
' Ruegemer: Park Pride Day was April 29th. We had a fairly decent turnout this year. Kind
of rainy but nonetheless we collected nearly half a ton of garbage. Filled a city dump truck
with a wide variety of things picked up ... appliances, deer skulls, everything.
Hoffman: Dave's back yard.
' Huffman: You didn't get my yard cart?
Ruegemer: But we had a good turnout for that. Probably 100 to 175 people. As far as Park
Pride Day II. The centennial committee dedicated a ceremonial tree which has been donated
by Wilson Northwest Nursery. We had Mayor Chmiel out there and he said some very nice
words and kind of a blessing I guess of the ceremonial tree and the Chan-o- laires were out
' singing. It was really a nice touch as part of the centennial. Centennial year. Medals were
given for kids that collected the most refuse and we found that... thinking next year have it for
every participant. We'll give them either a medal or a certificate or a ribbon or something
' like that. Just so everybody feels that they did a good job, which they did this year. So ... as
far as the revenues... so, does anybody have any questions about anything? Good.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lash: It was great Jerry.
Ruegemer: Thanks for helping again Jan. The dogs were the best yet. Good job.
ADULT BASKETBALL LEAGUE.
Ruegemer: The adult basketball league evaluations. ...played adult basketball.
Roeser: I don't know why we just don't drop adult basketball after reading that. Those
reports, I'll tell you. Before somebody gets killed.
Berg: The referees take it in the chin all the time but at least half of them were going after
the time keepers.
Roeser: Time keepers, the referees, they're all.
Ruegemer: Yeah, it's really that way across the board. Across the whole Twin Cities area
with adult. It's not just Chanhassen. Chaska have problems with their adult basketball
league. It's one of those deals. There's 5 times or 10 times worse than softball players out
there. It's really that way every year but we certainly will look ahead to next year and try to
improve things... see that program continue.
Hoffman: Can we ask them to coordinate their own?
Ruegemer: Totally coordinate the whole thing?
Hoffman: Sure. Many communities help coordinate their adult sports through ... have some
correspondence with the baseline organization, whether it be a park department or park board
or city staff.
Andrews: So in other words, they'd just arrange for the space and they'd administer the
whole.
Hoffman: ...they administer it. If they want referees, they hire referees. If they needed a
bus, it's their ball.
Lash: So sort of a CAAA. Chanhassen Athletic, Adult Athletic Association.
Hoffman: Just for this single sport. Let them see the other side of the fence.
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I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Huffman: Well you can do this down at Northwest. If they were to do this kind of behavior,
' they'd throw them out of the building in 30 seconds. We're not allowed to do that and normal
people don't.
Berg: Do we lose any control over the scheduling if we have them go independent?
Hoffman: We would have to do scheduling.
' Berg: So we wouldn't lose anything there.
' Lash: Maybe we could go into next year with the suggestion Jerry's got in his report but say
to them, we're open as to this. Here's another option, are you interested in that and if they
say yeah, let them go with it. If they say no, say well, then this is your last chance. If you
' can't be good this year, then next year.
Berg: Maybe that should be said now.
Huffman: Look at them right now and say here's the deal folks. You screwed it up. You've
t lost it. You come up with the officials. You come up with everything. We're going to rent
you court space or whatever. We're done. It's all in your hands. We're finished.
Berg: We saw these same reports a year ago.
Huffman: It's over. It's done. No more.
' Ruegemer: Even with increased suspension...
Huffman: No. You guys do it. If you can't do it, go away and go home.
Andrews: I agree. I mean why, dump the headache on them instead of us.
Ruegemer: One big problem is the perceived official problem but they did call, after an
incident they did call ... the rest of the year so they didn't seem to have a problem...
' Manders: I guess if that's what you would rather see, that's fine with me too. That they
would call their own games and forget about organizing officials.
' Ruegemer: That's you know, in my opinion I think that would be the much better option at
this point for them calling their own games.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Andrews: That's what Todd's saying. Let them administer their own game.
Lash: No, Todd's saying let them just schedule.
Andrews: That's right. Schedule it. Get the refs.
Lash: Now Jerry's saying, just let them officiate. He'd be the organizer.
Berg: He'd still be the coordinator.
Lash: He'd still be the coordinator but they'd be their own officials.
Andrews: It's not a heck of a lot of difference to be honest. I mean if you just say, here's
your, you've got x number of hours on this night, this night and this night.
Ruegemer: With that too, as far as turning over the league to them, it might pose to be more
of a maybe a hardship in maybe getting space... facility process is kind of set up. You know
if we sponsor the program, it's easier for us to get space versus an independent. So that
might be an issue they might want to look at. They would need to provide their own
insurance.
Huffman: I'd rather see them do this. This is a pain. So what? I mean you've got to do this
too and it's a problem. They're not doing anything to get better. Go clean your own house
up. Let them do it. I've got no issue with that. I don't care if it's their problem. Let them
take care of it. You can schedule through you and if it saves you a headache and you a
hassle, I'm all, I mean we've got kids out there we're trying to work with and help get better.
I don't need some yo -yo jumping up and down complaining.
Berg: And setting a bad example.
Andrews: I'm sure it's just a few that wrecks it for the majority, as it always is. There's
always a few people that get their competitive juices going a little bit and think they're
professional material when they're not and they can't control it. You know, they just get out
of hand.
Hoffman: If they coordinate it themselves, that forces itself... whereas the other players ... city
of Chanhassen would be the coordinating agency...
Andrews: We get all the whining calls. This way it will be self whining, which is what we
want. Do you need a motion to make this happen?
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Hoffman: That would be great.
Huffman: I'd be happy to make a motion. Is there somewhere in here that I can actually
read something?
Andrews: No. You have to.
Huffman: That the adult basketball league next year be required to come up with their own
organization and own system. That it creates their own officiating. Their own time keepers.
That we still maintain space and they have to go through the Recreation Supervisor to find
' space and schedule time but all other duties and responsibilities are incumbent upon the own
adult basketball league.
' Andrews: Second. Any more discussion?
Huffman moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct the
' Adult Basketball League to come up with their own organization and own system for next
year. That it creates their own officiating. Their own time keepers. The City of Chanhassen
Park and Recreation Department will continue to maintain space and the Adult Basketball
League will have to work through the Recreation Supervisor to find space and schedule time
but all other duties and responsibilities are incumbent upon the Adult Basketball League. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Lash: You guys play hardball here, whoa...
' Berg: I think with these kind of people too, they're not going to learn unless you hit them
between the eyes with a 2 x 4.
Huffman: I played with those yo -yo's for years and years and Jim was right. They think
they're somebody. Play basketball. Enjoy the game. Don't, you know, you ain't in the
playoffs. You're not in the big's. Go play.
Andrews: It's not life and death.
' Huffman: And they can't get it and they're going to use Jerry and Dawn and other people's
excuses instead of facing up to the reality that they're not really that good and it's just a
game. Go play.
Lash: So do you have a way of doing that. Contact people for you to just send letters to.
Make sure it's plenty of time so that they know they need to get their act together.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Ruegemer: Yeah, I'll do that sometime during the next week here. Draw up a letter and get
it out to them. Players that played in 1994 -95.
Andrews: Okay, good. Item 8.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
A. MAY 15. 1995 JOINT CITY COUNCIIAPARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
MEETING.
Hoffman: If this meeting came as a surprise to you, it did to me as well. The Office
Manager said that they ... did you know that the City Council has scheduled your joint meeting
for May 15th? I said, no I did not. We'll go ahead and facilitate that so it's a Monday
evening. The City Council has their present work schedule or their work sessions. This is
our time with the City Council. I was asked that the Commission... suggestions regarding the
agenda for that meeting. I probably know where you're headed and we can go ahead and
offer some suggestions for a meeting format. It's been formatted in a variety of ways.
There's a couple of ways ... more effective than others so ... request in that regard.
Lash: Didn't we just have a joint meeting with them?
Berg: Yeah, to discuss the referendum.
Hoffman: Yes.
Lash: Okay. So that doesn't count as our annual joint meeting?
Huffman: Can't we just do that again and look at it and say, we're back? Do we have
anything else to discuss?
Hoffman: They approved the referendum task force. Forming the task force last evening.
Andrews: I know last year I thought the joint meeting, and we made an effort to have an
agenda and it just kind of didn't happen. If I remember it correctly, we just sort of talked for
like a half hour, 45 minutes. I didn't feel it was very productive. I thought it was.
Lash: I think last years we got hung up on the goals, on staff goals which to me could be
done with just staff. I really personally don't think we need to sit and.
Andrews: I agree. This is our opportunity for the long term picture here. What are.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
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Lash: I'd be interested in having more open communication with them regarding this
' referendum deal and the task force and the priorities and see if we're in sync here with them
before it moves too much further.
Berg: I'd like to hear more their point of view.
Andrews: I guess another thing I have an interest in, which is not directly related to Park and
' Rec. And incidentally I'm going to be out of town that day. Is there any way when they
create these TIF Districts, that we can capture any money for trail construction on some of
the areas. Again, the Highway 101 or possibly Powers or Galpin or whatever, and we can
' capture those TIF dollars. Everytime I've ever talked to Council people or Todd or Don, it's
been kind of presented to me that these TIF districts are kind of fading out. They're dying.
There's really not much more we can do and then I read in the paper that they've just done
' another one. It's like, which is it? Are they available or aren't they? Can they be tapped for
any park activity? It seems like it can be a fairly deep pocket as far as dollars go. I've heard
discussions, this so called entertainment complex downtown. Is there any role for Park and
' Rec in talking about that? I guess I think there probably should be. So I'd like to see us
included more in Council's ideas of the downtown when it comes to recreation and activity.
' And also with the HRA, I know sometimes they get a little excited about spending money.
I'd like again for them to talk with us or us talk with them if they're talking about doing
things that we can do some coordination on. For those of you that are new here, a couple
years ago, the HRA came with their vision of the Rec Center.
Lash: Well, at this site.
Andrews: Yeah, and we'd never heard a thing about it. So all of a sudden here's our $12
million or $6 million program. It's like, oh great. When do we get to have our input but
' anyway, that's just. We need to have better communication with places where the money is
and HRA is one of them and TIF districts are a potential other so.
Lash: I also heard a little rumoring of some type of a youth, some talk of a youth center
somewhere or, actually specifically somewhere, and I guess I'd like to hear more about that.
If that's something that's coming from City Council or if that's private enterprise. I've heard a
' little bit of both I guess and I think that's something we need to have some input into also.
Andrews: Any other issues? I can't make it that night. What was the starting time of that
' going to be?
Hoffman: Probably 7:00 or 7:30.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lash: Will you be sending us an agenda?
Hoffman: Correct.
Andrews: Please let me know what the starting time is because I'll be getting back early
evening so I might be able to make it so I'll try to make that.
Hoffman: A couple of comments... open communication on the referendum. The City
Council asked for more information on the referendum and last night that was presented. At
the meeting they said, you're going to have to bring more information than what ... and they
said, well. We really ... they saw the Star and Tribune article on Monday... they're talking about
preservation of open space and also trying to...
Huffman: You did a very nice job in that article also. Quoted very nicely.
Hoffman: Talked for 10 or 15 minutes and the reporter when she first called asked me, how
in these times of tight taxes can you even think about having a referendum... My response... as
the commission and city looks at those issues, it'd be irresponsible for us not to. ...and talking
about increased valuations and tax levies across the community so they see both sides but
they're more than willing to take a look at... The Manager's comment in regard to bonding,
you know simply as we stated before, whoever gets in line first. If the storm projects get in
line before the referendum, they're going to get funded. We have the $10 million annual cap
in order to keep our bond ... in order for bonding limitations. The golf course could be sold
through revenue bonds so you didn't have that limitation. It's not part of that $10 million. So
they talked about that as well. They say, well if this is what the people of Chanhassen want,
that's what they're going to get and we'll put this...
Lash: Did you get a feel on any of the items?
Hoffman: They appreciated the prioritization. They thought, when you went ahead and
provided that list, that they were in priority starting from 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and they seemed to
think that that's how it ranked ... those that did make it and those that didn't make it and I
expressed to them that it was your opinion, at least in rough numbers, that most likely all
those things had a chance of being funded under that $4 to $6 million cap. We've notified all
the landowners and they've responded. I've been very upfront that I said the city's in no way
going to force anything upon landowners. If you're not a willing participant, thank you very
much. Our interest in your property was sincere but we're not going to chase it down. So we
had three landowners represented there last night. None of them spoke to me and this item,
which occurred at 11:30 last night at the City Council so maybe that was... And the
landowners stuck throughout the entire meeting so they're obviously interested in what the
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process will become. The task force now, notification will go out. The map will probably hit
the paper. I know ... today picking up information so you'll see something this Thursday in the
Villager in regards to this ... The TIF District, DataSery is looking at expanding and the tax
increment financing that will be produced by that expansion of DataSery has been talked
about for the TH 101 trail. I spoke to Tom Workman last night and Tom said there is some
activity on Highway 101 at the State level so he said ... find out exactly what the discussions
are that are taking place there. The downtown entertainment complex again ... movie theaters
and that type of thing. I don't believe is included as any public recreational facility at this
time but I'll find out for sure what elements that includes. For the most part I think it
includes moving Pauly's into the Filly's building and building the movie theater. As far as the
youth center, it's two fold. Mayor Chmiel has been a very strong advocate of trying to have a
youth center. In fact at one point he proposed taking Pauly's out of their lease and operating
that as a youth center. Then the other one was... called and said, there's too many keg parties
in the school district. Can we do something in lieu of that? How can you help us out?
There's been correspondence with that person that ... with the Mayor and some other contacts
on that effort. One of the concepts is to go ahead and schedule the Friday and /or Saturday
nights either at Lake Ann or Lake Susan Park. Have the City Council authorize after hours
so youth can stay in the park from 9:00 until midnight and then offer, you know Lake Susan's
a perfect location. It has a lighted parking lot and access boulevard. You have the baseball
fields, volleyball and basketball and park shelter. So and then, the person that I spoke to,
Gary O'Neill, lives out in Utica Circle said well, they're already doing that and I think if you
talked with Scott Harr ... half a dozen of them in out of Lake Ann ... so we've got to form our
programs so they have an alternative to the programs they're involved with.
Andrews: I think you ought to look at some sort of musical entertainment if you really want
to get kids involved.
Lash: Okay, and this is all ... and so I heard the private thing and I heard the Mayor's feeling
on it too and I bounced it off my daughter, who now is at prime teenage years, and she
thought the ... idea of something at Pauly's was great and I said, well like what kind of things
would you want to have. You know pool table, ping pong table, pinball machines, foosball,
you know I'm thinking. No. We just want a CD player or some kind of a music system and
some open space so we can just go up there and hang out and sit around and dance and be
together.
Huffman: Call up the malls.
Lash: And I would be very leery of some kind of deal at one of the parks because there's
too, I look at that as ... too many opportunities of slipping away into the woods and who knows
what all kinds of stuff could go on back in there. Unsupervised. To me that would be, I
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
know. So personally I wouldn't even let my teenager go to that if we sponsored one so. I
wouldn't get into that. I think something inside that can be closely supervised of who's
coming in. Who's going out. Some of those kinds of things are fine but...
Andrews: Maybe we need to look at a high quality stereo system for over at the new rec
center as something we can, you know portable. We can put it in the closet, but when the
kids are there, you can roll it out. Have some music.
Berg: Well and some way to have some pizza or something like that. They'll come if there's
pizza's there too. They're real cheap.
Andrews: If you really want to get the kids excited would be to say, here's a budget. Tell us
what you want.
Berg: We do have the Youth Commission. That might be pretty valuable in helping with
this. Get some ideas.
Lash: And it would be certainly easy enough to round up a couple of kids too and get, local
kids and just get some input. You know put in some vending machines. Couple of pop
machines and some junk food and add a little music. Cheap stereo set -up.
Andrews: Not cheap. Good sound. Anyway, okay.
Hoffman: Additional items on the Council update last night. There was, as I informed you
earlier, the Harstad plat was approved. Preliminary plat. That included the 8 acre park and
Kings Road ... next month, month and a half. At the time of final plat, they'll make the
signatures. The City will...park property. In the meantime, we need to make a determination
on the fate of the buildings. We've written into the development contract that it would be
their responsibility to raze the buildings but we need to determine if there's any value there.
The problem is not, the round house, the water tower house has, as was quoted last night,
historic value and I believe that's within a 2 block radius of this that that has historic value.
Andrews: I think we'd better get those buildings down as fast as we can. Because otherwise
somebody will try to keep them and then they can really mess up the active use plans we
have out there if you've got buildings to work around.
Hoffman: ...and stop thinking about public ... and start thinking about development.
Lash: How about development? What can we look at as a timeframe there?
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I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Hoffman: Plug it into the 5 year CIP. The park budget will be on the hook for the entire
' $30,000.00 an acre which will be times about 6.2 acres by the time you get through with the
dedication. And then we'll also ... for half the assessment of the road.
I Andrews: About $50,000.00.
Hoffman: $110,000.00 to $120,000.00.
Andrews: Is our share?
' Hoffman: Our share of the road construction. $200,000.00 for acquisition. $120,000.00 for
the road. I set aside $350,000.00 in reserves. The current operating budget of the...
' Andrews: That's what it's there for. I mean we're using it for what it's there for and we're
going to get a super good quality park out there. That will be good.
' Berg: Is there any point at this meeting on Monday to revisit the old horse of trying to get
some budget out of the City Council?
Hoffman: Absolutely. The change in the budget structure of the park maintenance under the
assignment of the Park and Recreation administration, we can capture some additional dollars
but we have not captured a single dime from general budget for park acquisition...
Andrews: We do now have a full time, heavy equipment operator for the park budget?
Hoffman: Yes.
' Andrews: So that person would be capable of doing like rough grading on a site like the new
Minnewashta Park.
'
Hoffman: You bet. You mean earth moving?
Andrews: Or dozer or whatever.
Lash: So could we do final grading and seeding?
Hoffman: Sure.
Lash: At least if we can get that done, it's usable.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Andrews: Yeah, for something. Soccer games.
Roeser: You soccer people are certainly one, narrow minded.
Andrews: Soccer and TH 101 trail, that's me. Alright, let's move on here.
Hoffman: ...In light of the agenda, I would think that we may have some people showing up
at 7:30... we've gone this far. They probably saw the 7:00 start, which they're used to,
because... that's all I have.
Lash: What about the 23rd? Is there anything that we need to know about that, besides the
fact that you won't be here?
Hoffman: No. The report will go out...
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS:
Andrews: Any commission member presentations tonight?
Lash: I have one quick question. I noticed now that I've been down on the trail between
Greenwood Shores and Lake Ann that there are a lot of trees that were taken down back in
there. I'm assuming that was city staff or someone like that. I mean they were diseased or
what?
Todd Hoffman's answer was not able to be heard on the tape.
Lash: Okay. I personally didn't have too much of a problem with the clean -up but I did hear
from someone that they thought there wasn't a very good clean-up job done so if you want to
check into it.
Hoffman: ...further up and natural areas along side there.
Lash: Well, and once everything grows up, you're not going to see.
Manders: Well I've been through there and I didn't think it was that bad.
Lash: Yeah, I didn't think it was that bad either.
Berg: I have one question and one comment. Any more communications with Mr. Kraft?
And his concern about the way the equipment was selected.
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Hoffman: I spoke for about 45 minutes the evening I received that letter and I believe for the
most part, he's very interested in getting the most for the neighborhood of Power Hill Park
and coming from a corporate atmosphere where things are very strict and you analyze and
make recommendations. Those were some of his, the analysis behind the reason why he
thought the staff... field of park and recreation and he went through the explanation... Hard to
put a finger on anything. That's why the conversation went on for 45 minutes. Mr. Kraft
was also...
Lash: But it says on here, that we do not even know. The Park and Recreation Commission
does not even know what they have approved.
Hoffman: That's based on the fact that the... playground had to make some adjustments and
they were very ... changes and they were approved.
Lash: So his basic frustration is that we didn't get your expert opinion, or that you didn't
make the choice, you being more knowledgeable in this field?
Hoffman: That's part of it.
Huffman: Does Mr. Kraft also realize that that's not their park. That's our park. That's the
city of Chanhassen's park and that we're trying to make everybody's decision and make
everybody happy.
Hoffman: I think so. That's why the commission has been appointed...
Lash: Did you mention to him that at the previous meeting that I had suggested that the
neighborhood get together and come back and tell us if they had any suggestions for the
playground equipment and if they knew the age range and all of that? Does anybody
remember me saying that? I don't recall seeing anything come back from them so.
I Hoffman: ...he's concerned about the, he's got 4 boys I think.
Lash: So he says here that he'd like to know what needs to be done to challenge and revisit
this decision. Does he want us to pick someone else? What does he want?
Hoffman: Yeah, I said ... he was fairly comfortable with that. Obviously this letter was on my
desk at 8:00 in the morning so he wrote it that evening after the meeting.
Andrews: I've got a couple of items for commissioner requests. Commission member
requests for you Todd. One would be to do what you could to keep me updated on this TH
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101 activity. I'm interested in it privately but I also think as a commissioner it'd be nice to
keep closer touch on that. That's a pretty major trail section that's been difficult to get
coordinated. Also, as a result of our prior meeting and our inspection of some of these
properties that we drove around, I don't know if you had any contact with Tonka United
about the Tiche property.
Hoffman: Sure did.
Andrews: There's a real interest there and I don't know, if as a city if we really can provide
much assistance there but I think it would be to the benefit of the city if that were to be
obtained for a recreational use. So whatever you could do to help those people.
Hoffman: Called them back and I think the property is sold.
Andrews: Is it already? Well, that's the way it goes.
Hoffman: I'm tracking down the realtor to confirm that. If that's a pending offer ... and also
left a message with Tonka United.
Lash: I was curious on the 4th of July logo. If you had set up, tried to set up a contest or
some kind of thing.
Ruegemer: Yeah... contacted both High Schools. Kim Roderick down in Chaska too ... and
then also ... up at Minnetonka High School and I did mail out some information... but it sounds
like he was going to make it a class project and ... so that was I guess a little bit uplifting...
Lash: Did you decide to go with a cash prize or scholarship?
Ruegemer: Scholarship.
Lash: Okay. I mentioned it my daughter and of course she immediately thought of a fellow
student who is just artistically.
Berg: When I talked to, as a matter of fact today I talked to him. He hadn't heard anything
about it and.
Lash: Right, and she was just with him Saturday night and I said, did you happen to mention
anything about this contest? Does he know anything about it? And she said, no. So I told
her about it and she said, kids would really rather just have the money. So I'm sure that's
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probably true. $75.00 seems like a lot for a kid and a scholarship when they're a freshman of
sophomore seems like.
Roeser: I have one thing. You know we only talk about TH 101 north all the time, as far as
the bike trail is concerned. TH 101 south is bad, if not worst. Is there anything, I mean in
the trail, coming up with this referendum that's going to do anything about that? I talked to a
lady who lives on County Road 1, you know. She says there's kids, there's no way they can
get to Chanhassen safely on TH 101 south either. It's as bad, if not worst than TH 101 north
and I think we've got to think about that part of TH 101 too. I realize with 212 and all this,
that we can't do anything but if we're going to develop Bandimere, I think we've got to think
about a trail, some safe way of getting from here to the bluffs. Yeah, or down to Bandimere,
yeah.
i Hoffman: ...because of that extension of TH 101 south and the new road. Again, that will...
The land use as you drive south and you see that vacant farm property there off to the east,
on the left hand side, that will not change. You know Mission Hills will develop and there
will be some other residential there but the 212 right -of -way has to remain in an open state.
So then you have, should we build on the old TH 101 or should we wait until the new TH
' 101. The Chanhassen Hills folks have been, they've been trying a long time for this trail
connection into downtown Chanhassen or into Chanhassen or into Lake Susan Park. That
will happen this year so that will appease some of that voice... Chanhassen but as far as the
' Rice Marsh Lake trail, and be down old TH 101. Lyman Boulevard will be upgraded within
the next 3 to 5 years. Lyman Boulevard will have a trail running east and west ... go from
Rice Marsh trail to Lyman and then at that point.
Roeser: You'll be into Bandimere at least.
Hoffman: ...it's probably...
Roeser: I just think it's something we've got to think about for those people down that way
too.
Hoffman: Old TH 101 will be ... and to reach that coming north, as you reach that tight area
there, near the lake, that will be cul -de- sacked and all the traffic will be traveling on the new
TH 101... Chanhassen Hills. What I'll bring forward is on the feasibility studies. The
feasibility studies for Highway 101 south was the ... long ways back, about a year and a half,
' two years ago and that included all of the pedestrian and bikeway accesses...
Andrews: I guess the point being that if we ignore TH 101 south, it will become just like TH
' 101 north. It will be urbanized and difficult to develop so.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lash: Well and with that, I think for many years with the idea of Bandimere being
developed, I think one of the goals was as it would be developed, there would be some kind
of a trail connection, because there's no way a kid would ride their bike along TH 101 to ever
get to that park.
Andrews: Let's wrap up. Any more comments on either Commission member or
administration section? If not, let's flip back to item 1 which is unfinished business.
Lash: Can we just skip the administrative section?
Andrews: Well I just asked for any comments on that?
Lash: On the administrative section?
Andrews: Yeah, I just asked for any comments on that.
Lash: Oh, okay.
REQUEST FROM CITY OF SHOREWOOD; CATHCART PARK CAPITAL
IMPROVEMENTS.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Lash: Does anybody else think this is about the dumbest thing you've ever heard? This
whole thing. Why is this, why if the park is in Chanhassen, would the city have donated it to
the city of Shorewood to start with?
Hoffman: The church?
Lash: Yeah.
Hoffman: Because the church was in Shorewood and at that time Chanhassen was a long
ways away from what was going on up there in Shorewood.
Lash: So the property used to be in Shorewood?
Hoffman: No. It was in Chanhassen the whole time but ... church was built across the street
in Shorewood. At the time the donation occurred, Chanhassen was a long ways away and
there was nothing over there and so the donation, from the church to help the neighborhood,
which the neighborhood was all Shorewood people, went to the city of Shorewood.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
L�
Roeser: Yeah, they just gave the city of Shorewood some land in Chanhassen.
' Andrews: I agree with Jan's comment. This is about the most goofy thing that I've ever
seen.
Berg: I don't understand why they need people from Chanhassen to come and help them
build this.
r Lash: If it's people in Shorewood who live there.
Hoffman: Well now the neighborhood has grown up around there and Chanhassen folks are
using it. That was the reason for the joint agreement. I'm not going to ask to deliver a
lawnmower every Tuesdays and Thursdays so we can mow the lawn.
'
Andrews. I • a with Todd that y ou have to fall back on this joint powers agreement.
agree you
If we don't, this thing is just going to keep coming back for a little bit more. A little bit
' different. I mean it's all good intentions and I agree with all that. It's good causes and good
intentions but this agreement was negotiated in good faith and full knowledge of both parties
and I think it's very clear as to what the intent was and I think we ought to follow that as a
' guide.
' Huffman: Do you need a motion or something?
Andrews: Yeah, I think we do.
Lash: I move that we accept staffs recommendation.
Roeser: Second.
Andrews: Any discussion?
1 Lash moved, Roeser seconded that the Chanhassen Park and Recreation Commission
respectfully decline the invitation from Shorewood to be involved in capital improvements at
Cathcart Park, consistent with the joint agreement between the two cities. All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
' POWER HILL PARK PLAY EQUIPMENT VENDOR, CONFIRMATION OF MINNESOTA/
WISCONSIN PLAYGROUND.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lash: I have one comment about this plan. As I recall, I had a thought last time that if two
of the swings were deleted that there'd be the potential in the future of possibly putting a little
extension on. Putting a tire swing there, down the road. So I'd like to make sure that the
swings are not centered in such a way that that wouldn't be able to be accomplished.
Hoffman: Pop this out?
Lash: Well, whatever needs to be done. If that's what it takes.
Andrews: I agree.
Manders: Is there any way to know sturdy the swing is as compared to the one at Pheasant
Hills or whatever the one that we were sampling down there that was a little bit shaky?
Hoffman: This is a 5 inch diameter, or excuse me. What this one has, the leg configuration
is different. It has this kick out leg design. At the end... You should find that this is
satisfactory. I have spoken, but just out of curiosity, Minnesota/Wisconsin Playground gets
their equipment, they used to be looked upon as not top grade equipment... colors and those
type of things... Since that time they've completely renovated and upgraded their materials. I
was aware of that at the time of the meeting. I spoke with the City of Champlin and the City
of..With that.
Lash: Good. And I'm assuming the green is a dark green. Right? It's not some ugly green.
Hoffman: It's a dark green and a tan.
Huffman: Dark green may be an ugly green.
Lash: Well, you know what I mean. Not like lime green.
Huffman: And that's ugly?
Lash: Well, for playground equipment, yeah.
Huffman: I have a leisure suit like that.
Hoffman: There is a lime green available. The one statement you could make is that the
decks, the rubber decks, coated steel decks, either come in brown or beige...
Lash: I think it looks fine.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Huffman: Anybody from Power Hill Park area want to make a comment?
Hoffman: With that, it's recommended that Minnesota/Wisconsin Playground be confirmed in
the amount of $21,995.00 for the purchase of Phase I playground equipment at Power Hill
Park.
Berg: So moved.
Andrews: With the stipulation that Jan made. That we allow room for a potential future tire
swing.
Berg: Correct.
Lash: Second.
Andrews: Okay. We have a motion. It's been seconded. Any more discussion?
Berg moved, Lash seconded that Minnesota/Wisconsin Playground be confirmed as the Power
Hill playground equipment vendor for Phase I in the amount of $21,995.00, and that enough
room be made for a tine swing in the future. All voted in favor, except Huffman who
opposed, and the motion carried.
Huffman: Opposed. I voted against it last time so, it doesn't matter.
APPROVE PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS, AUTHORIZE EXPENDITURE OF
CONTINGENCY FUNDS; POWER HILL POWER PARK BASKETBALL AND PARKING
IMPROVEMENTS.
' Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Roeser: Do you think you're going to get any heat for putting one 10 foot and one 8 foot
basket?
' Lash: It was a request.
Roeser: Was it?
' Lash: Yes.
1 Roeser: I mean I think it's a good idea.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Huffman: It's the greatest thing in the world. You get kids at one end. You get other people
at the other end. Kids who want to play on the taller side, absolutely. You don't need a full
length basketball court. I don't know any 13 year old in this town who can run the full length
of the basketball court without falling over.
Roeser: No, I think it's a good idea too. I'm just wondering.
Huffman: No, I think it's a great idea.
Lash: I have a couple of questions. One was, and it probably can't work any other way, but
one comment that I think Fred made was, isn't going in an east /west configuration so that
you're shooting into the sun in the afternoon? Not a problem? Okay.
Huffman: Let it go.
Lash: Well I just thought if it could run the other direction, do it the other direction. If it's
just as easy. Plus then you don't have the hill to contend with.
Huffman: It will improve accuracy...
Andrews: Life is tough when we're worrying about the sun being in somebody's eyes.
Huffman: This is wonderful. This is a blessing. This is great and if anybody complains
about it, they can go out and take one...
Manders: One question I have is on the surface of that parking lot area as it is now. I don't
know if there's any other ... or is that the way it is now, sealed? Just painted.
Hoffman: It's not...
Manders: No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm just wondering.
Berg: Any relationship between the people who wrote the letter about the basketball court
and the City Manager in Shorewood?
Hoffman: Yes.
Huffman: Thank you to the Hurm young men for taking an active interest in writing Mr.
Hoffman. Very nice.
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I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
I
Lash: I think this is going to be a great addition to this park. The playground equipment and
' this all going in this year, I should think the residents should be very happy this year with the
addition.
' Berg: Don't bet on it. We haven't finished the lower part of the park yet. Then they'll be
happy.
' Lash: I think they should be happy this year with what they're getting. They're getting more
than was anticipated.
Huffman: I make a motion that we approve the attached plans for Powers Hill basketball and
parking improvements, including authorization to expend the contingency funds.
Lash: In the amount of, not to exceed.
' Hoffman: $5,000.00.
Huffman: $5,078.86.
Lash: I'd second that motion.
1 Andrews: We have a motion and a second. Is there any discussion?
Huffman moved, Lash seconded that the Pant and Recreation Commission approve the
attached plans and specifications for Power Hill Park basketball and parking lot improvements
including authorization to expend contingency funds, not to exceed $5,078.86. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
Andrews: Oh, we forgot again. Is there anybody from the neighborhood?
CHANHASSEN RECREATION CENTER OPERATIONS.
Dawn Lemme presented the staff report on this item.
Andrews: So what you're asking for is to focus in on our hours of operation first?
' Lemme: I would like to get that covered....signage and things that we're going to need to be
getting done.
' Andrews: Let's take this one thing at a time. If we decide who's going to, yeah.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lemme: Before we get into fees or priorities, if we could do this first, that would be really
helpful.
Andrews: Okay. So let's start with hours of operation and days of operation. I assume we're
going to operate 7 days a week.
Lemme: Yeah.
Andrews: Okay. Any suggestion from board members here on hours of operation.
Roeser: Why would you change to 8:00 to 8:30 opening on Saturdays?
Lemme: I'm saying 8:00 to 8:30, when I looked at other places. Some opened at 8:30, some
opened at 8:00. I was just giving you...
Lash: Typically do the people not get up early enough on Saturdays?
Lemme: According to this, looking at other facilities, no. They do not. Unless they have a
pool, then they would open it earlier because people want to do an early morning swim. But
as far as the activity that we have, there probably will not be a lot of people doing aerobic
class 8:00 in the morning on Saturday. They may do that during the weekday because you'd
be open...
Berg: Well I'd like to see us open as early as possible. I circled all the earliest dates for
opening and the latest times for closing.
Lash: That's just what I did too.
Andrews: So you like 6:00 to 10:00. 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.
Berg: 6:00 to 10:00.
Andrews: Monday through Friday and 8:00 to 10:00 Saturday and Sunday.
Roeser: The only night you might close a little earlier is Sunday night.
Huffman: Saturday in reality, I mean you can close that earlier too. People don't workout
generally, some people do...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
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Lemme: The one ... city of Apple Valley. They opened it up in those late hours on Fridays
and Saturday evenings for...
Lash: Did you say team?
Lemme: Teen. Jr. High, High School.
Andrews: Let's talk about who uses it after we decide how long we're going to be open,
otherwise we'll get into too many what ifs.
Lemme: Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 10:00.
Andrews: Okay. And Saturdays and Sundays, what? 8:00 to 10:00 or 8:00 to 8:00?
Roeser: Let's go 8:00 to 10:00. Why not start big and if
Manders: You can always back down.
Huffman: It's easier to back down than it is to go up.
Andrews: You bet it is.
Lemme: Saturday and Sunday, 8:00 to 10:00?
' Andrews: 8:00 to 10:00.
Berg: Is Saturday and Sunday, excuse me. Is 8:00, does that then eliminate getting any
' churches in there? If we open up that early.
Lemme: No, they'll probably want to be in there, I'm guessing ... I haven't gotten any specific
' times. If they want to be there before regular hours opening, that could be arranged and that's
another question... Can we make special arrangements if someone wants to do a lock -in...
Lash: Sure. Well if we think that we want, if we think that we're open to running it Sunday
mornings consistently to a church, then we need to change our hours of operation because it
wouldn't be open to anyone else. So we'd have to then have our opening on Sunday be noon
' or whatever time they...
Andrews: See I have a problem with taking our rec center away. Completely.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Huffman: I am vehemently opposed to renting it out to a church on Sunday morning. I'll
give up my golf course completely before we do that. I think that's a very, very poor idea.
Lemme: One option is to allow the community rooms to be rented out Sunday mornings and
not the gymnasium.
Andrews: That's my concern that I don't think any one group should take it completely over
and deny access to the rest of the city. Completely. I guess that's my concern. And I don't
care if it's a church or any other group. I mean we shouldn't be blocking, if we're going to
block it out week after week after week, then like Jan said, take it off the schedule because
it's no longer available to the city or the public anymore.
Lemme: Correct...
Lash: I think that's a hard commitment to make the first year. For us.
Roeser: Maybe for a year we shouldn't.
Lash: You know at this point we have no idea what kind of
Huffman: That's a community recreation center.
Andrews: I think we should stay away from that too for the first year at least.
Lash: If it looks like, after the first 6 months, if it looks like it's never used Sunday morning.
Berg: Yeah, it can definitely be a philosophical question too. Through Community Ed I'm
finding out that they're getting hit everyday with churches requesting the use of the schools
for example...
Huffman: I was in the real estate business in Phoenix for 2 years. There's a church every
day that comes up and wants a new deal on a new place and new thing. I mean it's a
constant.
Berg: But the philosophical question comes up though because it's, and I don't want to get
into it now but it's tax dollars that are supporting this. These are taxpayers in the district or
the city.
Huffman: ...non - profit, non tax paying purpose...
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Lash: I mean we wouldn't be talking about giving them the space for free. There would be a
rent. Right, I would never consider it for free.
Berg: Right, absolutely not. I would agree waiting for a year is a good idea too.
Lemme: I would like to point out that on Sundays, I put ... 8:00 and people are home and I
think it would be actually the opposite. I think it would be harder to cut the hours back than
it would be to expand them.
Andrews: On Sundays?
Roeser: So you're saying going to 8:00 on Sundays, is what you're recommending?
Lemme: You know I didn't put that in there but that was generally what I found. I think it
would be easier to expand. If we're having enough demand here on Sunday night, we'll open
it later. But to cut back, open until 10:00 and say sorry. We're cutting back to 8:00. Were
still going to get a few people...
Huffman: Can we put that new mens basketball league in there from 8:00 to 10:00 on
Sunday night?
Roeser: Lock them in. 8:00 to midnight. And then let the survivors out.
Lash: So 8:00 to 8:00?
Andrews: 8:00 to 8:00, Sundays.
Lemme: Okay, just so I'm clear. On Monday through Friday the hours will be 6:00 a.m. to
10:00 p.m. On Saturdays from 8:00 until 10:00 and then Sundays from 8:00 to 8:00 and we
would be open to looking at lock -in's or additional hours for people who are...
Manders: One other question I would ask is, is there a, or did you notice anything in terms
of seasonal hours? If it was adjusted at all. Not that I really want that but I would think in
the winter you would have more demand than you would in the summer.
Lemme: The information I received was information that was collected throughout the fall
and the winter and as far as I know, those times don't change. Some of the programming
times changed. In the summer they would have less open gym programs and ... other things.
But I haven't seen any other changes. I think it gets confusing for people.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Andrews: So we have the easy part done. Like to attack the fees next?
Lemme: I'd like to, if we could, attack the fees first of all by categories. I understand that
you feel...
Andrews: Well I kind of like your approach you used here which would establish the
resident as the base rate and then everything else was either an up charge or a down charge
from that. It makes it easier to come up with a logical system. Plus then if we adjust rates,
we can just sort of follow that pattern on the percentage.
Lash: I have one quick question I was going to ask you about this. Is there anyone who
would just be free?
Lemme: At this point I guess we're not looking at that.
Lash: Okay, the first thing that came to my mind was Scouts. Scouts are always looking for
a place to meet.
Huffman: I was an Eagle Scout. That's part of your deal is to get space somewhere. I don't
want to be giving it away.
Lash: I mean they can't afford to pay for space. They can't.
Huffman: You know when we're talking about giving away stuff though, I mean we've got a
real jewel and I want to be real careful about giving away anything in this place. Anything,
real careful. Because if you give away the Scouts, it's like this Cathcart Park deal. You
know the agreement said it's gone but you can always change it. And I get real nervy about
this. We've got a great jewel and a great opportunity. If we give it to the Scouts, we're
going to have the guy from the American Legion down here going well, we gave $5,000.00
here, can't we have Lake Susan at a given time, etc, etc.
Andrews: I guess another reason why I don't want it free is that you don't want a group to
reserve it and then decide not to use it and not even bother to tell us that they don't want it
and if there's not some dollar figure attached, there will be groups that will just say, reserve
us the gym for June 5th, which is Saturday let's say. They're going to have their outdoor
soccer practice that day but in case it rains, they want to be able to come inside and have it.
But it doesn't rain so they go ahead and hold it outside and the gym sits empty and it's
wasted. And people will do that, I guarantee you they'll do it. If it's free.
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' Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lemme: Just to let you know, currently we get a lot of calls from troops. I'd say weekly.
' They want to use the senior center. They've been somewhat pushed out of the schools. Or at
least the schools have given them less time availability and so we've currently been directing
people to the old Village Hall. A lot of troops. Some are open to that because of it's
' proximity to ... and the downtown area. And some have requested to use ... I could tell you that
we could fill up every single day after school with troops, whether it's paid or not paid. I
have a feeling they're going to want...
Lash: Well, I'm going to have a problem. I mean what was this built for? This was built
because we needed more space in town and not every organization is a profit making
organization but they still need to have space and that was the whole intent of building this
building. We knew the school was crowded. We knew another school was coming. Scouts
' is a, to me, a very worthwhile thing. It's not a money maker. It's something you want to try
and encourage. They learn some great life long skills but if they don't have anyplace decent
to go, and I don't consider Village Hall a decent place to have a meeting. There's no
facilities. Many times in Scouts and Girl Scouts, you do cooking things or craft things that
require sinks or ovens, things like that and you need to have some place for them to have it
and have it accessible to the school, you know the kids in downtown Chan are going to be
' using the elementary as much as they can here. And they probably will be using Bluff Creek
as much as they can too, but there's not those kinds of facilities in the classrooms if you want
to, you know use a stove and that was one of the reasons why I personally wanted to see
' some kitchen facilities put in some of these rooms. For some of those kinds of things that
need to be done. Some have banquets. They have father - daughter things. They have all
kinds of things going on and to me that was the whole point of having this building. I don't
look at this building as being a major profit center for us. I look at it as providing
opportunities for people to go somewhere and do the things that they haven't been able to do
in the past.
' Andrews: To be fair, you'd have to say non -profit civic organizations which really opens up
to a ton of groups.
' Lash: I know it opens things up but I think it's something we need to look at and discuss and
figure out a fair and equitable way of doing this. And if we charge everyone across the
t board, I don't want to say it's discriminatory because it's not. It's fair but you have these
groups who don't have the availability of funds so they just will be excluded from using that
facility for that reason.
Huffman: Jan, there's nobody here that loves the Scouts more than me. I sat on the Viking
Council Board for 3 years. I am an Eagle Scout. For 5 years I carried a brown paper bag as
a pack. We camped under tarps. That Village Hall is phenomenally exciting as a meeting
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
place. I mean are we so, to the point now where unless we have a cushion under every
touche, that's a great place to meet. That's a great room. You can divide up and you can do
100 things in that room. And I really am nervous, and I'll just follow Jim's point of
reasoning, that you've ... We sit here and argue about playground equipment. Is it ADA
accessible? Do we have enough property? And to kind of open it up to a particular group
like the Scouts, I just, a rate structure that we come up with or something. We did bake
sales. We did car washes. We did a thousand things and there wasn't any poor inner city
troop that I belonged to in the country than the one I grew up with. We went everywhere in
the world. These kids in Chanhassen can do the same thing. It's a great learning opportunity.
Lash: I look at the way that lifestyles are now, Scouts generally tend to be after school and
parents are working. So there's no way for the kids to get from their school to some other
site for their meeting. So if they can't do that, they don't have the meeting. They almost
have to have the meetings be in the school and if the school is, the school is limiting them for
some reasons. I don't know what those reasons are, but if that's what's happening, then
Scouts are going to get squeezed out because they're not going to have places accessible and
they're not going to be able to afford to pay to go somewhere.
Andrews: How about if we do this. How about if we figure out resident and non - resident.
Business, resident and non - resident and come back with what we want to do with the "non-
profits and disadvantaged" groups last because I think that's an area we all struggle with. I
know Minnetonka for instance is quite open to accommodating non - profit groups.
Lash: Even if we designated one room as one that could be, I don't know.
Andrews: You could have a lot of, you could have all kinds of arrangements but I see both
sides of it too. I know it's tough but I also am concerned that if we say we'll take care of
non - profits civic organizations, there will be more groups than we'll have space for and so
we're right back to it. But anyway, why don't we come back to that. ...The rooms that we
have available to rent out are all approximately the same size?
Lemme: The community rooms. The community rooms...
Andrews: Okay, and we're talking about a unit as being one - fourth of that overall room?
Lemme: Yes. One meeting room.
Berg: And two of those have kitchens.
Andrews: Yeah. We can surcharge those or up them for whatever.
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Lash: So what's the difference between a conference room and a community room? Or the
' meeting room?
Lemme: The conference room is, there's a small room with ... and video stand. A big, large
conference table. Somewhat like our Manager's conference room. Our conference room
upstairs for small meetings to take place and if you need a video screen...
Lash: So smaller meetings than in a meeting room?
Lemme: Right. That's what we call this ... The community room is the one large room
i divisible by 4.
Andrews: I'm trying to find the Minnetonka schedule here.
Lash: Its the second page from the front.
Andrews: Yeah, the Minnetonka Community Center is somewhat similar to what we're doing,
is it's mainly meeting rooms. I mean we do have the athletic space attached but. I guess one
' thing that scares me is that we're going to make this so complicated that nobody will be able
to figure out what it is.
' Lash: Well let's not. Let's just make it simple.
Lemme: I think my proposal here on the... categories, and then just either giving a discount to
or adding a surcharge makes it simple enough because when you ask people what's your room
type, you just go down the line... discount for renting 4 rooms but they may be charged more
on the other end because they're a non - resident.
' Andrews: Okay. So if we assume the resident as the 100% space rate, okay. Suggestions
for what a non - resident should pay above the base rate for a rental.
Lemme: And the reason this is difficult is because, you know... double what the residents pay.
Minnetonka, they only charge double for non - residents. But every place is different. It's
' really based on what you're comfortable with charging residents and non - residents...
Berg: I think before we look at anything else we have to decide what a resident is going to
' pay. What's the 100% charge that they're going to have?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lash: Well maybe we need to look at blocks of time too. Minnetonka are for a 5 hour block
of time. Like for their community room is, during Monday through Thursday it's $50.00 for a
5 hour block of time.
Andrews: I'm trying to come at this a different way which is let's come up with a percentage
schedule first and then we just go up and down the line and say this much for this room.
This much for this room. This much for this room and everything fits right in. So if you say
a resident's 100 %, a non - resident is 100% plus a 50% surcharge or whatever so we can kind
of establish the grading first and then come back and tack numbers on everything...
Lemme: So if you want to charge, so what you need to determine first off, how much more
do you want to charge non - residents than residents?
Manders: No, I'm up for double.
Roeser: Are you really?
Huffman: Well, it's Chanhassen Rec Center, correct?
Andrews: Plus 100% so.
Lemme: So double.
Lash: Yeah.
Andrews: How much to add for a business? So if you get, are we going to have businesses
divided by resident and non - resident?
Lash: Pay half as much for a business.
Andrews: To be honest, I don't think we should, I think businesses, resident and non - resident
it doesn't matter.
Huffman: Now you're talking group type.
Roeser: Oh, I think it should matter.
Huffman: Well what about just non - profit versus everybody else?
Andrews: We'll come back to that, non - profit. We'll get to the non - profit last.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Huffman: But what I'm saying, if just two categories. Not 20. Non - profit, everybody else.
Lemme: We do have some difference, on our field schedulings, we do charge commercial
and business different than just regular residents and a discount is given to non - profit groups.
So there's three categories in that. That's why there's three now.
Huffman: But are we required to follow that?
Lemme: No.
Huffman: That's why I'm saying. Why not non - profits get over here. I mean create an all
encompassing to support that non - profit.
Berg: Is it easier for you when somebody calls, if we're consistent with what Jerry does with
the fields too? Is that why you proposed that originally?
Lemme: You had asked me to take a look in comparison to what we do with our fields.
' Lash: I thought it'd be, I suggested that. I just thought it would be easier for us. We've
already struggled with this issue with the ballparks and the picnic facilities so why not just
use that as a guideline and go with it...
Andrews: We're even more brutal on our park reservations than 100 %. We're 200% up.
Lemme: At Lake Ann pavilion. When I was looking at that I was saying Jerry, wow.
Huffman: $60.00 to $120.00.
Roeser: But we do sell it. I mean we don't have any trouble.
Lemme: No, we do not...
Andrews: So we're looking for 100% surcharge for a non - resident. So how about a resident
business? 100% above resident, base resident? So we're going to have double businesses.
Lash: And then a non - resident business maybe again? Another 100 %?
Andrews: Yep.
Manders: That's sound a round number. I like that.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lemme: Could you repeat that please?
Andrews: Okay, a resident business will pay 100% more than the resident individual rate, so
to speak. And a non - resident business will pay another 100% more so 300% above the base
rate. Does that make sense?
Lemme: So non - resident is...
Huffman: We don't want to force them out of the market but.
Lash: I don't think we're going to have a problem. I think there's going to be enough
resident...
Andrews: At the same time, the last thing you want to do is say to your resident that geez,
the business down the highway has booked space. Sorry, we don't have any room for you
and their people paid for it. If the place is sitting there empty, when we know what we need
to do.
Hoffman: Can we get the percentages...?
Andrews: We're adding 100% on so it's a plus. It's 100% added on. Another 100% added
on so a total of multiple of 3 for non - resident.
Lash: So we'll just say, if it was $100.00 for resident. It'd be $200.00 for non - resident. It'd
be $300.00 for business and $400.00 for a non - resident?
Andrews: That's not the way I.
Lash: No? Okay, well...
Andrews: I was going to say. A business, a resident business would be $200.00 and a non-
resident business would be $300.00. So that's how the price grid would work. Now we can
go back and say.
Lash: Or how about district? If we go right down the yellow list. The school districts.
Andrews: Districts.
Lemme: Would districts be considered non - profit?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Roeser: Oh I would think so.
Lash: Yeah, I guess. So if we have resident, non - profit and non - resident, non - profit?
Andrews: No, I don't want to get into that. That's too complicated. I mean how can you be
a resident, well.
Lash: Okay, so what if Eden Prairie School District wanted to come in, we'd charge them the
same amount?
Andrews: Well let's talk about. So we have 276 and 112. So we have schools and then
we've got non - profits and civics, right? Suggestions? Just home districts, half the rate?
Lash: Half the resident rate?
Andrews: Yep.
Roeser: Yeah, 50% discount. That makes sense.
Lemme: That would be the church, civic and non - profit?
Andrews: No, that's just the schools at this point.
Lash: And other school districts, there would be a surcharge of 50 %?
Huffman: How far do you define what that includes?
Andrews: What is it, District 276 and 112?
Huffman: No, I understand that. What does that include? District 112 calls up and says we
want to rent x space and we send over Future Farmers of America's. That's the kind of
group? That kind of thing?
Andrews: If it's a district sponsored event, I really don't care.
Berg: If they had a girl's basketball team that needs a place to practice.
Lash: Or they need to have an organizational meeting.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Huffman: German Club or whatever, okay. That's fine. I did not know what was all in
there. Thank you very much.
Andrews: Other school districts, non - resident rate?
Roeser: Yeah. I think we're not going to rent to them.
Andrews: Yeah, I agree. Let's just have them pay a non - resident rate which is plus 100 %.
And I guess my feeling would be for non - profits, that's a tough one. I've really wrestled with
that one too. I feel at the very minimum we've got to cover our janitorial and space costs.
We can't just say come on in and mess the place up and we'll pick up the tab. I don't think
that's right.
Huffman: If there's not some value attached to it, some monetary value attached to it, there is
no value. That's a fact.
Manders: My thought is that we can always back off on whatever we decide. Re- evaluate
this next year, which is going to be a situation with the parks. We look at them every year
and it's going to be easier to back off than I think to step up something and we'd be better off
having some type of a fee.
Andrews: I guess I agree. I think we should charge a fee and if somebody really has a
problem with that, they can apply for a hardship and we'll deal with it but I guess my
inclination would be to say no.
Berg: I think charging a fee.
Andrews: Flat fee or percentage?
Berg: A percentage, increases. I think it makes the place more valuable to them and they're
more likely to take care of it but I'd like to see it a nominal fee. I would go so far as to
throw it on the table to discount those groups 75 %.
Andrews: I was thinking the same thing.
Roeser: Non - profit?
Lemme: Civic and non - profit.
Roeser: I notice it says senior here too.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lemme: On Jerry's...
' Andrews: Same thing. 75% discount. Does that sound reasonable?
' Lemme: 75% discount would go for civic, non - profit, and that includes schools, and...?
Andrews: Yep.
' Huffman: And seniors in there too.
' Lemme: And seniors.
' Andrews: Anybody we missed?
Lash: Well you know there's going to be bugs in it and we'll have to work out the bugs as
we go. When they crop up, we'll look at it.
Andrews: I don't think we should have a resident and non - resident non - profit. I don't think
' that is necessary.
Roeser: No. As long as priority would go to the resident non - profits anyway. And seniors,
' you're going to have to use your own judgment on that I would think.
Andrews: Okay, so that's the, that gives us a grid to work with. Okay now, now we need to
' come up with dollars.
Lemme: Well let's keep going on these categories, if you don't mind. Would you consider
' giving people, or would you consider a weekday rental as a regular rental and then the
weekend rental. I notice a lot of the places do charge more on weekends, obviously. As far
as renting out.
Andrews: I'd like to see us start out with just a straight grid to start with for the first year
and see because it's a brand new facility. We don't even know what's out there. I'm just
' afraid of making an administrative nightmare. If somebody would ask me, what's the policy
out there and I'd have to say geez, I don't have the faintest idea. I mean I understand what
you're saying is that you can extract more money over a higher demand period but I'm not so
sure I would support that we'd take that approach right away.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Berg: And the other side of the coin is, you might be able to get more people to come at
10 :00 on a Tuesday morning when there's not going to be anybody there, if it's a little bit
lower rate.
Lemme: Most of the places, they consider the weekdays Monday through Thursday and then
the weekend rate for higher charge on Friday.
Lash: I don't have a problem with a different rate, although I, again I go back to this, the
whole point of having this here is not to extract money from people and to be a big money
maker. That was never my intent. It was to provide space for people because we didn't have
enough space. But Fred's got a good point. If it's a senior group, they may pick a Tuesday
or a Wednesday because it would be cheaper for them to come on a Saturday or a Sunday
when working people, that would be their only time to go so.
Roeser: I don't know if there's that much difference from Saturday and Sunday.
Lemme: There's a higher demand for facilities for like the community room as far as, we're
looking ahead to showers, potential weddings, those kinds of things are generally more
weekend oriented and I think that the market out there ... and that's why they're charged the
higher price. So I think it should be a higher demand.
Berg: There's going to be a much higher demand for the gyms on the weekend.
Huffman: But would it also be better to establish for a year a baseline to find out what the
market is? I mean Jan's point is true. Find out for a year. Come back and say now we've
looked at it. We realize at this point this is too much. This is too little and therefore we
don't want to be a profit center but adjust it. Everybody's adjusting. It's all going to work
out. Bring it down on the week, take it up but establish a, we have no base. We don't know
what the demand is. We're guessing but establish that for a year and re -visit it at Christmas
or something like that.
Lash: So it looks like we're overflowing on the weekends and dead all week long, then we
know that's the time to bump the price. On the weekends.
Berg: Yeah, if we're getting a lot of people from other communities, because it's such a great
deal even at 200 %.
Meger: I guess I would disagree. I feel like we have a lot of information showing us that
the weekend is a more sought after time and it is also a time where there may be individuals
who can't come during the day and also going on the concept that sometimes it's harder to
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I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
raise the price or cut back on hours. The same concept that I would recommend we raise the
' price on the weekend to start and we can always bring it back down if we want.
Huffman: Add a 15% surcharge for weekends then? Just take whatever our base number is
' and it's 15% higher on the weekend.
Roeser: That's sensible.
Berg: No problem with that. Jane brings up a good point.
' Andrews: What's the weekend then, Saturday morning until Sunday closing?
' Huffman: Friday.
Berg: Friday night.
' Huffman: Friday morning. Friday 8:00 a.m.
Andrews: So Friday from opening until Sunday closing would be weekend rates?
Roeser: Right. Friday to Sunday.
Andrews: Well I agree. It's tough to come back and raise prices. Then everybody whines so
if we could come back and say geez, we're going to cut the price on weekdays because we
need to fill it up, I don't think anybody will complain.
Lash: Plus if we think we're going to come up with something halfway workable here, it
' saves a lot of printing and sign engraving and all that kind of stuff too so.
Andrews: Okay, next step.
' Lemme: Okay, the next category would be time. Do you want to charge on an hourly basis
as your base charge is an hourly fee? And do you want to look at offering a discount for
' renting for a half day or renting for a full day? I gave one example here, if you looked
closely at the materials, there were discounts given at some places. A day discount...
Andrews: Well there's a couple ways you could attack that. One would be to say here's our
hourly rate, with a maximum of x number of hours as your fee.
Lash: Minimum you mean?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Andrews: No, maximum. That you can't pay more than a certain amount. They can book as
many, you know there's lots of ways to do that. Discounts or maximums or whatever.
Lemme: ...up to 4 hours and then after that.
Lash: I think we're looking at a 4 hour block.
Andrews: I think 4 hour blocks. I think you need 1 hour blocks and 4 hour blocks, because
you will have groups, like soccer, that have team meetings or basketball, or whatever.
Berg: Yeah, basketballs's going to want it for 4 hour blocks.
Andrews: Yeah, that don't want it all day. Maybe they just need a quick team meeting.
They're in and out. Why tie up the room for 4 hours when somebody else might be able to
come in there.
Lash: But I agree with the idea of having either a cap or a reduction for the longer thing.
When you don't have to go in there and changing, putting up and changing furniture every
hour, that's...
Andrews: I think we need to look at 1 hour and 4 hour blocks. If you have a wedding, you
know 4 hour block. If they need more, they can take an 8 hour block or 4 + 1 or whatever.
Lash: 4 hour block, I was just looking at the hours and 4 hours is a nice divisionary number
for all of the days except for Saturday, which is, it's open for 14 hours but nobody's going to
want.
Berg: I can CAA asking for 8 hours on Saturday.
Andrews: Fine, two 4 hour blocks.
Huffman: I'm hearing a couple of things. Weddings. Showers, things like that. Are you
talking about catering food in? Are you talking about on service site things like that?
Lemme: Catering.
Huffman: Are you alcoholing on this place or is this alcohol free?
Lemme: Currently, no. That's the intention.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Andrews: It's on our property.
Lemme: That's one of the things to be decided...
' Huffman: So that's like a weekend deal. The kids are gone from school. School's shut down
so Friday after 5:00 and Saturday and Sunday you can do things like that? I'm asking. I don't
know.
Hoffman: They'll have no access to the rest of the building so the difficulty... such as Chaska.
If you're familiar with the community center. You can block off the remainder of the
community center and it's still open for use but you can't gain access to the community
center... banquet. They put up a gate across the hallway so you have to enter through the
outside separate entrance. So if we were to host a Friday reception... close down the
remainder of the building, the gymnasium would not be in service then to the remainder of
the community to allow you to go ahead and serve alcohol in... At least that's my inkling and
we'll find out more information...
' Andrews: You said that we'd have to shut down the whole place?
' Roeser: If you couldn't block it off.
Andrews: Well, we'd have to figure out a way, yeah obviously.
39
Huffman:
Well no, I'm asking is because what I'm hearing is, I mean we're walking right
down the path and this isn't the right time but, weddings. Receptions.
Andrews:
You won't get that without alcohol. Not many of them.
'
Huffman:
I ain't going to one.
Lemme: ...we
talked a little bit about the special permit to deal with alcohol. On site.
'
Huffman:
I'm asking for information here. I'm a little fuzzy as always, Fred.
'
Hoffman:
The concept of hosting a wedding reception and that sort of...
Andrews:
It sounds like a City Council.
Roeser: The City Council maybe will have to deal with that, won't they?
' Huffman: So that's like a weekend deal. The kids are gone from school. School's shut down
so Friday after 5:00 and Saturday and Sunday you can do things like that? I'm asking. I don't
know.
Hoffman: They'll have no access to the rest of the building so the difficulty... such as Chaska.
If you're familiar with the community center. You can block off the remainder of the
community center and it's still open for use but you can't gain access to the community
center... banquet. They put up a gate across the hallway so you have to enter through the
outside separate entrance. So if we were to host a Friday reception... close down the
remainder of the building, the gymnasium would not be in service then to the remainder of
the community to allow you to go ahead and serve alcohol in... At least that's my inkling and
we'll find out more information...
' Andrews: You said that we'd have to shut down the whole place?
' Roeser: If you couldn't block it off.
Andrews: Well, we'd have to figure out a way, yeah obviously.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Hoffman: There's a single hallway there so we could gain access to the gymnasium from the
school and so we could keep our end closed and gain access from the gymnasium... Where
there's a will there's a way and we'll take a look at it.
Berg: As long as they're talking about time, and I don't know if this is the appropriate spot.
What about, are we interested in any kind of discount for those kinds of groups that might be
going for a block of time for a season? I know we're going to get requests for basketball for
evenings for practice and for Saturdays for games.
Lash: Does the community center, do basketball teams, or the organizations have to pay to
use gyms anyplace else right now? Kids?
Ruegemer: Not to my knowledge, they don't.
Lash: Okay, how about the adults?
Ruegemer: If you use their facilities, they do not.
Lash: Okay, and the adults?
Ruegemer: Ah, no.
Lash: Okay. And with the Community Center in Chaska?
Ruegemer: No ... basketball pretty much they kind of joined powers with the City of Chaska
to run the league and therefore we are not in charge.
Roeser: But it's part of your fee.
Lash: Right. Well, I'm just wanting to make sure that I can see the road we're going down
here with the gym and I was having a little panic attack here that we were going to start
people to use the gym for basketball.
Huffman: I'm not going to be able to get on at 8:00 on Friday nights to go play with 3 of my
buddies?
Andrews: Yep.
Berg: 8:00 on Friday night won't be any problem. 6:00 on Thursday might be.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Andrews: If you're going to have a private practice, you've got to reserve. But if you just
want to go shoot hoops, you just go shoot hoops.
Lash: So if I'm coaching a 2nd grade team and we want to go over there practice some night,
our team is going to have pay to use that gym?
Andrews: I mean if you want it private, for your use only.
Berg: Or she's coaching a CAA team, how's that going to work?
Lash: And I call a practice and the gym is open.
Andrews: CAA is going to block time.
Huffman: Your league is going to buy time from there. You bet they are.
Lash: Well that's what I just asked. Are these organizations paying to use gym space in
other places right now?
Ruegemer: Currently, no.
Lash: Okay. So they're not going to pay to use the gym space there. They don't have to pay
anyplace else. They would think we were insane if we started charging them for space.
Huffman: No they wouldn't. Because there's no other place to go.
Lash: Well I'm really...
Berg: ...all of a sudden there's one building in the entire district that's charging them to
practice basketball.
Huffman: Well, okay. Walk me through this. I understand your concept. I'm walking with
you but I'm a taxpayer. When do I get to use it?
Lash: When it's not scheduled.
Huffman: It's my court.
Lash: It's the same as, you call and it's the same as anyplace else. If you want to go to
Chaska to the Community Center.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Huffman: So I've got 6 nights a week of sports. I've got soccer in there now. I've got
basketball in there. I've got baseball practice because it's wet outside so they want to come
inside.
Andrews: Well what you do is you block open gym times like every other facilities does and
you say Tuesdays and Thursdays night from 6:00 to 10:00, it's open gym. If you want to
come down and shoot hoops, you shoot hoops. A gym is basketball and the B gym is
volleyball. Go play. Monday, Wednesday and Friday, it's blocked out for leagues. Don't
come because you're not getting in. That's the way every other facility operates and we'll
have to do it the same way. But you're right, you have to have time blocked off for Joe just
to grab his basketball and come on down. Because if he can't get on that court and play
every once in a while, he's going to come throw rocks at us.
Huffman: I love your little leagues. Those are my kids playing in those leagues but I'm
writing the check and ... I've got an 8 and 5 year old and I understand that but daddy and
mommy like to go down there and play volleyball and basketball and...
Lash: Well if you go to play volleyball, you're going to be on a team.
Andrews: Not necessarily.
Lash: You and your wife are going to go play volleyball?
Huffman: We get our neighbors and we go down to the park and we've gone other places
and played, sure. The elementary school had the open gym a couple years ago for pick -up
games and stuff, absolutely.
Andrews: Chaska pick -up volleyball is heavily attended every Friday and Sunday.
Lash: But it's scheduled. Open volleyball.
Huffman: Open.
Lash: Right. I mean you're not going to just call up your friends some night and say, let's
run over to the Rec Center and play volleyball.
Huffman: Why can't I do that?
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I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
I
Lash: Because chances are it's going to be in use, is the whole point. It's not going to be
sitting open available at everyone's beckon call. That wasn't the intent. The intent was to
have more space to use because we don't have enough space.
Andrews: What Chaska does is, when a group says that we want to play volleyball, or let's
say you've got a group that likes to play badminton and you came to the coordinator and
you'd say, I've got 20 of us. We're really interested in badminton. They'd schedule you out a
' block of time. Maybe it's 2 hours on Sunday afternoon and they'll put up the badminton net
and they'll block you off a court and you go play. So you'll get your spot for your activity
but in general for open gym, you're not going to block off an open gym area to put up a
volleyball net unless you know you've got people that are going to play. Because otherwise it
sits there and doesn't get used, is what happens. And all the other people that want to run
around complain. So that's what every facility does.
Lash: No, I don't look at this facility as being just a pick -up spot. I think it's something
you're going to have to call in. It will be reserved in an organized fashion but that doesn't
necessarily mean to me that everyone who calls to reserve it is going to paying every time
they come in to use it.
' Berg: Yeah, if they have plans it's spontaneity.
Huffman: In reality, yeah. So we've built a facility that's already fully scheduled?
Roeser: It will be.
Andrews: Yeah, it will be. But it won't necessarily be scheduled purely for the benefit of
teams. Some will be blocked out for open gym. For volleyball night or whatever else.
Bowling, or whatever else you want to do. Golf You can put up a golf net.
Lash: That will be another whole issue and that will be the programming things.
' Roeser: Some of those things will have to be done by the professional staff I think. I'm not
sure, we can hash all that out here tonight and we'll be here until 4:00 in the morning.
' Lash: No, I just want to make sure that we're not going down some path of charging for
every single thing that's going to be available there for people to use. To me that would just
be a crime. I mean that's what people are paying taxes for is so they have the opportunity to
go someplace and play and their kids can play and right now everything is so crowded they
can't do it.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Andrews: I've got the perfect solution. You put like a gumball machine thing on the
basketball nets so the basketball goes up. It goes into the hoop and you've got to put a
quarter in to get it back.
Huffman: At Chaska Community Center also, you have to buy a membership if you're a
resident there, don't you?
Andrews: Yep.
Huffman: I've got to pay if I want to go down there $175.00. Chaska residents pay $100.00.
That's their tax dollars. That's their deal. I mean you are, space is at a premium.
Andrews: That's not free either. Even their open gym is not free. You pay to use it.
Berg: I need to be reminded. What access do we have to the school gym after school hours?
Hoffman: ...share the room.
Berg: Okay. Because that's going to clear up a lot of this problem if we all of a sudden have
two gyms. We still won't have enough space but it opens it up more for.
Huffman: Whether you get two activity courts or three activity courts and you keep one free
to wander up and down. But people do pay and I want to remind us that yeah, they do. I
want to keep it fair and free and equitable but they do.
Andrews: I think we've got to get back on task here or we'll beat this to death and be here
all night.
Lash: So should we look at a 1 hour and then a 4 hour block?
Andrews: And I think Fred's comment about what do you do about somebody that wants to
book a long term, I guess I would say that would be somebody that you just have a modest
discount on. I don't think it should be dramatic but I mean if somebody wants to come in
and book out a conference room for every Monday night from 8:00 to 10:00, great. They can
do that and they'll get like a 10% discount if they do it or something like that.
Meger: I guess I would go the other way saying you need to set a limit as to how far ahead
somebody can book because I don't want to take away that prime time...
Berg: That's why I said seasonal. I think I was thinking obviously just as a gymnasium.
44
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Andrews: Is it Minnetonka, I think you only can go, on a repeat I think you can only go like
2 or 3 months out and then you've got to rebook.
Berg: I think 3 months is reasonable.
Andrews: I can see your point but I mean, why deny another person a chance.
Huffman: Because they'll reserve it and not show up for a couple weeks because they don't
need it until the next season starts.
Lash: Here they've got at Minnetonka, it says a resident can reserve a room up to 18 months
in advance and non - resident up to 12 months.
Andrews: That's a one shot reservation.
Lash: Oh yeah, okay. I suppose you're talking a wedding or something like that and people
need it way down the road.
Andrews: Had you hoped to get the actual room fees tonight?
Lemme: No, no ... I wanted you to consider the categories that we want to look at. Just so I
can get this straight here. Is there going to be any type of discount for someone who rents,
not like every Friday but to rent the entire community room for a conference or a workshop
from 8:00 in the morning until 10:00 at night? Are you saying that there's no discount for
that? Or there would be...
Andrews: I guess philosophically, why would there be?
Roeser: No, I don't think there should be.
Lash: You don't have a bunch of set up and take down and clean-up inbetween where you
could have if it had been divided into 4 rooms and 4 different groups were in each room all
day long. That's a lot of extra work. Clean -up, set -up, all of that and you talk about a one
time set -up and a one time take down.
Huffman: I mean ostensibly our prices are going to be cheaper than any commercial deal out
there. They're going to be real reasonable. I'm assuming.
Lash: I was looking at it initially that the community room, that there would be a price if
you booked one of the four but that if you took the whole thing, it would be a little cheaper I
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
guess. I don't know why I thought that. I guess I just assumed because of the set -up and
clean -up.
Andrews: I guess I could see more of a discount based on an all day than I could on say
taking 1/4 or 1/2 or whatever because that has no bearing on our cost of operation. If you
take 2 rooms, 3 rooms or 4 rooms for 4 hours, it doesn't cost us or save us a dime, depending
on the number of rooms you took. But as far as your comment about if I took it all day from
opening to closing, that's only one set -up and one take down, that does save us money. I
guess with that in mind, I said yeah it might make some sense to say you know, if you take it
for the day, we'll give you a 10% discount or something. I think it should be modest because
you don't want to have somebody book the extra time just to save the money and tie up the
room when they really didn't intend to use it.
Lemme: Is that the decision?
Andrews: I think we're all kind of glazing over.
Huffman: Well I mean here's the fee. If you rent it at this room, it's this much. If you break
it out, it's more expensive to rent a smaller room, less time. It's cheaper to rent the whole
thing at one big pop. So if you want the whole thing all day, it's 10% less than the addition
of all the numbers together.
Lemme: That's what...
Huffman: Right. So if it cost $5.00 an hour for your hour, you want it for 8 hours, normally
in a small quarter room it would be, for the 4 hour segments, whatever that number is. If you
want all of it for 8 hours, for the whole deal, you know have a number.
Andrews: I was just saying, I didn't think that made sense. To say if you take 4 rooms
versus 1 room, we don't save anything doing that. It's the time is where we save. It's the set-
up is where we save. Not the quantity of rooms where we save. Are we on the same
wavelength?
Huffman: No. I'm somewhere orbiting an outer planet somewhere right now.
Andrews: Todd's over here grinning away.
Huffman: I don't know how you guys do this.
Lash: I hate it when they whisper over there and then laugh.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Hoffman: If we have weddings, we're going to have people using our bathrooms in the
locker room.
Huffman: I guess I'm coming back down to this idea of the use of the entire facility because
you talk tear up and set down, that's hotel catering lingo. That's verbiage that you have a tear
up and a set down. We have community rooms that have two kitchens, a conference table,
some chairs. I go over and I grab my chairs and I come and I pull them out and set them
around the table. That's the set up. Now all of a sudden I'm hearing set up and tear down
and I'm now envisioning Radisson coming in and managing our, I'm confused as to the
growth of this thing.
Andrews: Well, it could be a morning bridal shower, afternoon wedding. I mean that's two
clean-ups, two set -ups. If somebody takes the tables and chairs and decorates them all up and
you know.
Huffman: We have tables and chairs? I mean we have ... for 250. We have people who are
going to wear little deals and go around and do that stuff?
Hoffman: Absolutely.
Andrews: Yeah.
Huffman: My eyeballs hurt.
Berg: You just wanted to play basketball.
Huffman: I just want to play basketball. All I wanted to do there. Take a nice shower. Get
a steam. And go away.
Lemme: So you'd like to see a discount for people who rent for an entire day. Otherwise
you'd like to see people charged on the 1 hour rate with a maximum of 4 hours?
Andrews: No. I think we said there's a 1 hour and a 4 hour.
Lemme: 1 hour and 4 hour.
Lash: And if they want to have two 4 hour blocks, that's fine. If they want three 4 hour
blocks, that's fine.
Lemme: Okay.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lash: And if they want three 4 hour blocks, that's fine.
Lemme: And the number of meeting rooms is not a factor?
Andrews: Nope. It doesn't make sense to me.
Lemme: Okay...
Andrews: And one thing to remember is, when in doubt, mumble.
Roeser: Just say I'll have to check with Todd.
Andrews: Whatever you think would be fair.
Lemme: ...okay, the room type. As we said, there are three different room types. There's
the conference room, there's the community room and there is the gymnasium. A lot of this
information that was written on ... that had to do with their community, their meeting room ... so
your gymnasiums would be a different issue. If a church group comes in and they'd like to
rent the gym for a church party. Not a school district thing, are they going to be required to
pay a fee? And if so, would that be higher or lower than...
Lash: For the whole gym?
Andrews: Absolutely.
Lash: Oh, I think more than a meeting room. I mean to block out a gym, the whole gym to
keep anyone else from being able to use the whole gym.
Andrews: I guess we haven't established what any rooms are going to cost yet, is that what
you're trying to get at here?
Lemme: No, actually I'm not. I'm just... are your meeting rooms going to cost differently
than ... so you have different charges for different rooms?
Andrews: Yes. Absolutely.
Lemme: Okay.
Andrews: If they really want it bad, they have to pay more.
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I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
I
Lash: I look at having the kitchen in there as a slight upcharge just to make sure people
aren't taking the room with the kitchen who really don't need it. But nothing, a minor. Like
maybe 10% or something.
L Andrews: Would there be coffer service available that could go into any of the 4 meeting
rooms? So if somebody rents one of the rooms without a kitchenette, they can still make and
serve coffee. We're going to have that kind of equipment? ...we will, I'm sure.
' Lemme: ...We'll have to do something...
Berg: Tell me if it's just me. I have a bit of a problem with any group coming in and
renting the gym and closing the gymnasium off for a large block of time to anybody. I'm
talking about a church group for example. Private group. I'm not talking CAA.
Andrews: How about after hours?
Berg: After hours, I have no problem.
Andrews: Okay. Then we've got to figure out how to charge them for that.
Lash: Are you talking about the gym?
Andrews: Yeah.
Lash: And I look at the, maybe I'm really naive. I don't look at that as something that a lot
of people would book for anything other than sports kinds of things, would they? I don't
know.
Ruegemer: After hours?
Huffman: Absolutely.
Lash: What do you mean after hours? I look at like a lock -in maybe. Okay, what else?
Huffman: People use it for fund raising. You have groups come by. Put in carnival nights,
other things...
Roeser: You can rent it from 10:00 to midnight.
Huffman: ...you've got people walking in black heeled soles all over the gymnasium floor.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lash: We can't have that.
Huffman: No, we can't.
Berg: We've seen already we've got a problem with scheduling it with the guy who wants to
play a pick -up game and the organizations. I have a real problem with closing it off to
another group for any block of time.
Andrews: I do too.
Lash: I look at it as being available on off hours on a very limited basis. On something like
a teen lock -in or something that's highly supervised.
Huffman: At the end of schools.
Lash: No shoes.
Huffman: Kids after proms, things like that. After dances... Absolutely.
Lash: But I don't look at it as the place where one of the schools is going to have their Fun
Fair.
Roeser: No, they've got the gyms in the school already. They don't need.
Lash: I don't know what all other kind of things would be out there.
Hoffman: I can see that this meeting is going to be a heck of a lot more productive after
about the first quarter of operations...
Lash: Then we'll have something to fall back on.
Andrews: Dawn, I think we've got to tie this one up here. I think we're losing ourselves
here.
Lash: Okay, how about a difference between the conference room and one of the four
meeting rooms? Anybody see a difference there? Is there that big of a difference just
because it's equipped a little bit different?
Huffman: Absolutely, you want that because the people you're going to get there are going to
be coming in for...
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lash: Okay, a 10% up charge on that. Make it easy. If it's a kitchen, it's 10% more. If it's
the conference room, it's 10% more...
Lemme: We can end this at this point tonight and come back to it at another meeting...
' Lash: Well what else do we have? I'd rather keep chipping away here.
Huffman: Well the number of meeting rooms here, that's pretty standard. Yeah, let's go.
Roeser: We have this land development proposal sitting in front of us, don't we?
Andrews: And it's 9:00.
Huffman: Well you've only got 2 more things. You've got number of meeting rooms, set -up,
take down, and priorities. Can we hand you a hand written list after the meeting of the list of
priorities because we knew that last time coming in?
Andrews: No.
' Berg: No.
Lash: I think just by the fees alone. The percentages could... priorities, don't you think.
Residents have priority over.
Andrews: I'd like to bring this back next meeting and tie it up then.
Lash: I'd like to table it now and finish our other business and then see what time it is and if
there's time, keep going. I would rather try to wrap up as much as we can while we're. If we
wait 2 weeks or a month, we're going to be forgetting everything we did here.
I Roeser: No, Dawn's got it all written down.
Lash: Let's see where we go.
Berg: Let's table it and see where we are.
Andrews: Table where we are. Dawn, we may come back to you. I'm personally am against
coming back to you but.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
CONCEPTUAL AND PRELIMINARY PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT (PUD)
APPROVAL TO REZONE 24.85 ACRES FROM R12, HIGH DENSITY RESIDENTIAL TO
PUD, PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT; PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 46.57
ACRES INTO 85 LOTS, 2 OUTLOTS AND ASSOCIATED RIGHT -OF -WAY; SITE PLAN
REVIEW FOR 83 SINGLE FAMILY DETACHED ZERO LOT LINE HOMES ON 19.95
ACRES AND A WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT ON PROPERTY LOCATED ON
LAKE RILEY BOULEVARD, ON THE NORTH SIDE OF LAKE RILEY, NORTH BAY,
ROTTLUND COMPANY, INC.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
Lash: The Klingelhutz development to the east, how many homesites are proposed for that?
Hoffman: At last count I believe it was 64...
Don Jensen: Is it my turn?
Andrews: Yes, Mr. Jensen. If you would introduce yourself and make any comments that
you'd like to make.
Don Jensen: Sure. Don Jensen, Land Development Manager for Rottlund Company. You're
looking at another subdivision. I have on my right here an aerial of the city of Chanhassen.
The property that we are looking at developing, are we on tape, or do I not need to worry
about this?
Andrews: We are on tape.
Don Jensen: We are? Okay. Is bounded by a farm road on the west side. The Klingelhutz
development that was just described on the west side. The 212 corridor is roughly
immediately north of the existing farmhouse on this aerial photo. It runs at an angle through
the property. Roughly in this location. So development would be roughly just due west at
the service road to the apartments. Bearpath. Eden Prairie border. Chanhassen's right here
on the far east side of this drawing towards me and this is the parcel that is not us. Remains
to be developed as the last high density parcel, plus this in the Chanhassen boundary on this
zone. All the other lands are zoned the lower density. What we're looking to do is to
develop in the high ground in through here in this location immediately to the west of the
entrance road on parkland... development plan that you have in front of you. Since we
submitted these plans which were out in your packet, we've been able to get some
corroboration from the wetlands people ... We have modified a submittal before the Planning
Commission to look at the, the dwelling units now are slightly lower. It's about 75 dwelling
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I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
units compared to 83. We had a development review meeting with the planning and
engineering staff and understood that we would receive some comment from Todd's group,
Park and Recreation. What we are looking to do in moving the proposed Lyman Boulevard,
Lake Riley Road is the old road, or the current road I should say, is being upgraded quite a
bit to the north ... as you can see on the aerial photo. We're requesting in our plans to flatten
that road to the open space that is taken up by the ... parking. The driveway that's been out
over on this property for a long time. That opens up this triangular zone for development of
water quality ponding and it also... What we're proposing to do in that narrow, that... right -of-
way which helps for ponding purposes and setbacks from the buildings and makes land more
developable north. The parcel to the south from the lake is still undevelopable by city code.
Is to move the trail to the existing ... and other vegetation that we have, all along this south
arm and then bring it back up to the road right -of -way. As we get closer to the project
entrance, over on the easterly portion of the development, and that's what we're talking about
when Todd mentioned narrow right -of -way, larger right -of -way. The current plan engineering
had, had large right -of -way and the trails coming right up against the road. Separate the trails
in a narrow right -of -way. So that was our proposal regarding that trail corridor and Todd is...
We understand that. That that's part of the road project. Our request is to have some
concurrence that it makes some sense to put the trail away from the road.... That allows us
' to ... narrow right -of -way for other regional and local needs for development. One question I
had of Todd and for yourselves is we had understood that there was supposed to be a trail
along this new public street concerning... development. That's currently been called a sidewalk
on the plans. We understood from planning that that was to allow these residents to walk to
this other park which is in the Klingelhutz development. If for some reason there's not an
intent to have sidewalks or trails here through other subdivisions, I guess we don't see a need
to have it on our plan unless that's the focus of the city's future. We're certainly willing ... our
fair share built now and the trails... But we understood that was prorated and—We had an
opportunity on what would be the west side and south side of this new public road to provide
' a walkway through the development. Because it's a trail, we'd like to be able to have part of
the trail fees ... but it's going to end up going nowhere through the Klingelhutz plat, and I see...
Andrews: Todd, do you want to address that point right now about sidewalks? You gave us
a handout about that.
Hoffman: I provide that to Mr. Jensen ... The request for sidewalks... correct?
Don Jensen: Correct.
Hoffman: And sidewalks can be requested as part of the subdivision process and certainly as
a part of the PUD process. The concept here is that this is a large... residential street which
will not only allow access through this proposed development but then allow access through
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
the Klingelhutz proposed development down back to ... The City has not been in the practice of
discussing trails... trails in residential subdivisions. The city, where required, is in the business
of requiring the installation of a concrete sidewalk, 5 foot concrete sidewalk. There is not an
error in price. The trail fees... clearly brought out in the comprehensive plan. The
comprehensive plan identifies the trail system. If an applicant of a subdivision is dedicating
right -of -way or constructing a portion of the city's comprehensive trail plan, the city has
100% granted them a trail fee credit for that performance. But not in this case.
Lash: Sidewalks are a separate issue from us anyway since that's a condition of the Planning
Commission.
Don Jensen: That's correct and when we laid this plan out and presented it to everybody,
they were collating other departments wishes and that instead of trails, sidewalks was more
desirable.
Andrews: It would be.
Don Jensen: So that's maybe another department's agenda and not really something to talk
about here but I guess our question is just, in a lot of subdivisions, there's a changing... that's
going on. It's a tier that you can't plan ... big trail system. Once you get a real plan and you
decide you want to link it up.
Andrews: I'm not sure this is necessarily a part of a trail system but I think a sidewalk as
part of a high density, zero lot line PUD is not unusual for the city of Chanhassen so I would
say that, only speaking for myself at least, that we would want to see that stay there. But
again, I don't think that's necessarily a Park and Rec issue. That's a Planning Commission
and Council issue that we could perhaps provide some support for in our final
recommendation.
Lash: But it doesn't affect the trail fees one way or the other.
Hoffman: An example would be the Oaks development... across from City Hall. The
sidewalk was a portion of that project ... the trail system, which was identified in the
comprehensive trail plan...
Andrews: I guess another question I have for you Todd would be if we were to move this,
the trail that would be south of Lyman, would that be in the proximity to the road where, if
road improvements were made, that trail would be built as part of a road improvement or
would that then come out of our pocket as a part of a park and trail fee improvement?
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I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Hoffman: Lyman Boulevard would be upgraded and the trail proposed has been included in
1 that project.
Andrews: Okay, so we're not in any danger of
Hoffman: Taking a hit?
Andrews: No, okay.
Hoffman: One issue that Park and Rec mentioned and the staff works hard at attempting to...
east and west and you have an opportunity to take a look at Lake Riley, it's probably ... The
concern that I have though, and I'm not sure that Mr. Jensen's opinion ... is that it's not public
space which this trail system is proposed to go through. However you're leading the public to
a lakeshore area which is ... for a variety of things and I as a city staff member would have
concern over the ... uses in that area and having to deal with those incidence...
Lash: Who's property is it right there?
Hoffman: As I understand it the...
Don Jensen: Yeah, we've been led down a number of different discussion points here. The
' city has no need for it we've been told, to be dedicated as public park space. We have no
need for remnants along lakeshore. Therefore it remains in private hands. However, the city
would desire to put a trail that goes as close to the lake as they can ... as possible. So we're
kind of stuck inbetween trying to design something. You can't really develop where the road
is curling and you have slivers in your property. Really perceive that there's a whole lot of
public ownership over a remnant. And what we believe that we would like to develop and
what's on this plan is where we have a larger space currently, currently right across from the
entry, that's where we would like to have dock space for this neighborhood and a small
gazebo. The area to the west where we have the trail moving through the trees, as proposed,
1 certainly does seem in our mind to have a great deal of conflict of use. So it's been taken by
the public for all practical purposes by the way the road moves through there. The ownership
issue, we don't see that much of a problem with. We think it'd be a nice trail. We think it
makes better sense than trying to fit a road, water quality and existing wetlands...
Lash: When we're talking about a sliver of a remnant, what size piece of sliver are we
' talking about?
Don Jensen: It probably would be about a 3/4 of an acre to an acre of land that could in fact
be dedicated to the city.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lash: On lakeshore?
Don Jensen: On lakeshore. So if the city wanted to have a small piece for picnicking off the
trail, that's something that I'm just saying, could happen with this subdivision. Presumably
we would get some credit for that. I would think that would be a straight out gift but we've
been told today that that was not in the master plan so it's not something that you should
contemplate. They're possible. I guess what I'm really saying is, we don't see on the west
half that there's a conflict moving the trail away from the road. We think that's more
desirable to get the trail away from the road...
Andrews: I see Todd's point though too, which is people that go by there on bikes or
walking or whatever, some people are going to use it as a public beach. No matter what you
want to do.
Don Jensen: I think you have that for any trail corridor. You have that through any DNR
system. There's a whole variety of private /public relationships that exist...
Andrews: Now you mentioned about a gazebo and a dock. Have you been in contact with
the Planning Commission and City Council as to what the practices are for other?
Don Jensen: Yes.
Andrews: Okay. There's been some changes in that over the last few years.
Don Jensen: Yes. There's certain allocations based on the ... the lakeshore and ... that seems
appropriate. We're within those guidelines on our application.
Andrews: Okay. Anybody else have any questions or comments? If not, we need a motion
Lash: Now wait. I have a couple of questions. And I have a couple of comments too. First
I'd like to know if the Klingelhutz property is also proposed as a PUD.
Hoffman: It's not been brought back to the Planning Commission with an official application
yet.
Lash: Okay. So at this point, we have no idea.
Don Jensen: We don't know. They were an approved straight zone, standard subdivision.
Given all of the things that are going on and in order to get their value out of it...
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lash: Okay. I did some rough calculating here. If the Klingelhutz proposal was roughly 68
homes, this one is 83. That's 151 homes, 3 people per home. 450 people. Our general
guideline is 1 acre per 75 people. We're looking at a minimum of, I think between the two
developments of 6 acres minimum. We're getting 5 acres and of course with that, I wouldn't
have any idea at this point how much of it is really useable. I look at this development as
these people have no yards. You're not talking about any place for anybody to do anything.
Don Jensen: I guess to explain what the target market is.
Lash: Well you know, we hear that. We hear target market all the time and in the end, we
don't always end up with the target market but we end up with a whole bunch of houses
crammed together and no park and then we're, that's what we're stuck with. So I have found
with this whole thing, and I look again that this is a PUD. A PUD to us means we can
require above and beyond the minimum requirement. We don't know at this point if
Klingelhutz will be a PUD or not. This one is. We've got an acre of lakeshore that's a
potential for the city. I would have a problem with not even discussing the possibility of
getting an acre of lakeshore property out of this deal. I'm not ready to just go ahead and say
that I like this. I don't like this. I don't like this at all, for the reasons I just stated. I don't
like any development where people don't have a yard and I don't care if they're 60 or 50 or
40, people need some yards.
' Huffman: Todd, where's the closest park here? To this one. You've got the planted open
area. You've got Klingelhutz. There's another Rottlund development, townhomes going in
down there, to the next spot right?
Hoffman: The closest existing park?
I Huffman: Yeah.
Hoffman: The closest existing parkland ... in the city is Bandimere Park.
Huffman: So there's no park there right now?
Don Jensen: Well there's within, there is a lot ... Eden Prairie developed park which is within...
Huffman: That's our concern of reality. That's not our issue.
Lash: So what we're oin to end u doing is, we would get 2 1/2 acres, possibly, from
g g P
Klingelhutz and then have to buy 2 1/2 acres from him to end up with a minimum of 5 acres,
which I don't even think is enough for this to start with when we have the opportunity for a
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
PUD, trying to get something out of this deal and we're not asking for anything at this point
except for fees. I'm having a problem here.
Andrews: I understand but this is high density too. I mean that's the comprehensive plan.
Lash: But if it's zoned high density, it doesn't mean that they don't need park property.
Andrews: Okay, what we're also saying though is that we have an intention of providing
some parkland on an adjacent parcel.
Lash: And is it enough? And we're having to pay for half of it.
Andrews: I think the best we can do out of this is extract the maximum fee, which is 100 %.
If we're going to take that approach.
Lash: Is no one else interested in any kind of, if we ran the trail down by Lake Riley, of
trying to acquire some, and put a small beach in there?
Andrews: Well you have to provide parking.
Don Jensen: You can't get parking.
Lash: You can't put parking in there?
Don Jensen: Correct.
Lash: Okay, so it's a bike in.
Andrews: Comments?
Hoffman: Throughout the analysis of the city ... it's a very small beachfront. These type of
remnant parcels are difficult for anyone to deal with and the project developer before you... It
will be facing this at the Lake Minnewashta, Harstad parcel... neighborhood comment on what
that piece of property should be used for. This is ... not large enough for a public beachfront
or public amenity based on the fact that it's very restricted on what it can be used for... My
singular concern, and you've got the ... However the city does operate in the comprehensive
plan. If we deviate from that on certain occasions ... Klingelhutz subdivision ... 5 acres is tight
for a neighborhood park. We have requested that ... flat useable property and in some
rectangular configuration but again that is ... Carver Beach playground, which is 2 1/2 acres
which services a neighborhood ... Back to stress the point again that if we're going to have a
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I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
I
dock and a beach front and we're going to run a public trail by it, the applicant may not think
that's going to be an issue. I'm sure the residents who live there who have the rights to this
dock certainly will have an issue with that. When people walk off this open trail and gain
access to that dock or whatever purpose. If they want to sit on the dock and watch the
sunset. If they want to fish off the dock or if they want sunbathe off the dock. Those... city
staff members.
I Andrews: It's private property.
Hoffman: Well, it will be association property, sure. So the association will call and
complain to the City Hall. They're not going to call Rottlund Company.
Andrews: I would like to, I wish we could have a beach there that we could properly access
but it's not possible. I mean if we had a beach there, even if it's a bike in beach, we can't
have it be a beach because you can't get emergency vehicles down there. If somebody were
injured, you know in the lake or drown or near drown and we couldn't get at them with
emergency vehicles, we're dead meat.
Lash: What about the mini -beach at Carver Beach? Is that any smaller? Is that any larger
than this? It can't be.
I Hoffman: No.
Andrews: But you can get at that with a vehicle.
Hoffman: The overall size is...
' Lash: Well, yeah when you connect the whole thing but I'm just talking about this. The
mini - beach. That's very small. But it's used extensively. I think that any time you have an
opportunity to put in a little public beach, people are crying for beaches.
Huffman: North of that property, is that the Rice Marsh Lake on the back side? Is north
there. There is a comprehensive trail system eventually someday to go around Rice Marsh
Lake?
Hoffman: Correct...
Huffman: Where will it hook up with this neighborhood?
Hoffman: It will not. It will be cut off by Highway 212.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Huffman: Okay.
Lash: Where's the Klingelhutz park? Is it abutting this? The property that we want to get
for the park, would it be abutting this?
Hoffman: To the west.
Lash: So if we extracted some property, it could be.
Don Jensen: The park is in the center of the subdivision. That was the question. The park
property in the Klingelhutz subdivision is some distance away from the boundary line here.
Lash: So we wouldn't be able to extract some property here and have it, have the park be
larger? Right.
Hoffman: Not in it's current proposal.
Andrews: We just got contradictory answers here from the two of you.
Don Jensen: Well I saw a couple of concepts where it was further west and the original plat
on that was pre - wetlands... If I could take you to the aerial here, what your regulators are
talking about is that there's a zone roughly immediately west of the farm road. You can see it
on this aerial through here that on the record plat, which has expired for Klingelhutz, there's
now a wetland ... This whole zone through here is ... hillside if you will so there's no...
immediately adjacent to this. The westerly line of the project ... So it becomes, you would
have to fill wetlands in order to get more park space there and do it ... I don't know that that's
in the public interest.
Andrews: It'd be difficult at best.
Lash: How far is the road? If the road were moved back down the way that you are wanting
it be moved back down, how far would it be from the road to the lake?
Don Jensen: Approximately 100 feet. At the furthest, it is fairly, it's a little bit. What'd we
be trying to do is to get it about as close to the lake as you could see the existing alignment.
Currently over here on the west, and really try to just stay.Just as you are over here. Here
you're pretty high up on the bluff but there's quite a bit of trees through here. It's a little bit
tougher to see the lake. We've got some good open use through here. A new design takes
the road and curls it a little bit softer through here. Swung it up over the road. Current road.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
So we're looking to take it on the curve and then flatten it out. Really over this existing
gravel road right there.
Lash: The only, to me the only redeeming feature of this whole thing is if we were to be
able to extract the beachfront property. Run the trail down there. So it's a little bit of a
secluded spot. 100 feet for an emergency vehicle I don't even think is that bad. The beach in
our neighborhood is smaller than that and it's 100 feet for an emergency vehicle and it's used
a lot and people think it's the greatest thing. And to pass it up I think is a crime.
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Andrews: Make it fly. This is a democracy here.
Hoffman: Chairman Andrews, just to clarify my response in regards to Commissioner Lash's
question. Whether or not you could adjoin these two properties... identify the two drawings,
considerable common frontage to the north of those wetlands where joint property could be
acquired.
Don Jensen: To further clarify. We're responsible to delineate wetlands within the boundary
lines of the land we're proposing to plat. The Klingelhutz subdivision and the zone that I was
looking at on the aerial, we're not responsible to delineate a wetland on the adjacent property.
The wetlands representative, Diane Desotelle, in walking the site to verify what we were
showing the city, noted that the new laws that exist up and through this current legislative
session, there is a zone through here that would now end up being delineated onto
Klingelhutz. On any type of re- application that occurs there. So we're not trying to mislead
anybody by what we submitted but the areas that have known wetlands, on the previous
project, are very clear that they're—but the areas that were fuzzy, were those other areas that
just fall into the new mapping under the latest laws that we all have to follow. That could
change in 2 months. This may be no big deal...
Lash: But you're saying you could end up with a common piece between the two?
Hoffman: Sure.
Andrews: Maybe.
Hoffman: ...this property, that's not higher density... single family property.
Lash: What is the property value?
Hoffman: ...estimated for you.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Don Jensen: What the city is looking to acquire, I believe the north half of Rice Marsh Lake
and the 212 corridor... anywhere between $25,000.00 and $40,000.00 an acre. That's been the
going price... acquisition for that. Developable land to the north. Less developable land...
Andrews: The piece we're talking about here, it would have a lower value being that it's a
centered piece and not really developable anyway but it's, like I say, it's all fuzzy.
Hoffman: I've heard nowhere of a $40,000.00... Certainly $25,000.00. $20,000.00 to
$25,000.00.
Lash: And what kind of fees would we be collecting? Park fees from this.
Hoffman: $900.00 in park fees for each unit...
Huffman: Can we collect that trail fee on that $40,000.00 piece of land rather than the
$20,000.00?
Meger: Todd can you comment, one more time when you were looking at this property and
looking at the merits of the acre down by the lake, why you felt it wouldn't be something that
we'd want to maybe take a look at more specifically?
Hoffman: Public access, you'd certainly, we have very minimal parking at Carver Beach and
Carver Beach mini -park and... If you wanted to ... pursue acquisition of the property and some
form of public...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Don Jensen: ...$10,000.00 in cash.
Meger: So what did you say?
Don Jensen: $100,000.00 for 75 units. Not the 83 that you were looking at.
Lash: So you're looking at $100,000.00?
Don Jensen: That'd be $100,000.00, presuming we'd build out before you raise your fees.
Lash: And that's park and trail or just park?
Don Jensen: That'd be park and...
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I Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Lash: Okay, because I calculated at 85 units for just the park fees was $76,500.00 so we're
1 somewhat. I guess my recommendation that I'm waffling on right now. The minimum that I
would want to do is require the area by the lake. And I guess I'd like us to try and acquire
also an acre that would be adjoining the Klingelhutz property so we'd have a 6 acre site of
L usable property for both of these together. If that looks like it would be, if that part of it
would be just a real problem for everyone here, I'd be willing to back off on that one. But at
this point in time, considering the fact that this is a PUD, with the lakefront property, it's not
usable necessarily to the developer anyway. I would suggest that we not even give credit for
the lakefront. It would just be a condition.
Huffman: Why don't you make a motion?
Lash: Okay. Is there any other discussion on it? I mean do other people have.
Andrews: There has to be a second first.
Huffman: I second.
Andrews: So the way I'm understanding it, you're asking for an acre plus the lakeshore.
Sidewalks are going to stay obviously.
Lash: And we don't have any say about that. That's Planning Commission.
Andrews: Yeah. Okay. What's the scale of that drawing there?
Don Jensen: This is 1 inch equals 50 feet.
' Lash: I guess my question for Todd is, if we were to require an acre and it's abutting the
Klingelhutz property, is that decent property to put the park on or is that, if it's not a good
choice for the property, then it would be stupid on our part to require it.
' Hoffman: It's going to limit the application which can be investigated as far as acquisition of
parkland.
Lash: Right. But is that a decent site or do we want it, are we preferring a different site
further west because it was better property to develop?
Hoffman: Those are some of the reasons. It allows more flexibility as well for the current
applicant to locate the park ... park location along the east and west boundaries. These two
t parcels... Diane discovered this wetland property... Have the road connection to get to that...
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Berg: How close and how accessible is Bandimere from this development?
Hoffman: It's outside of the service area along ... It will be accessible across Lyman
Boulevard. Down Lyman Boulevard and crossing south on ... and accessing it through ... just
about a quarter mile wide. And then walking back over to Bandimere Community Park.
Berg: So it's not too far.
Hoffman: 3/4 of a mile.
Lash: Maybe the adjoining property is putting us in too much, it's too...
Andrews: I think it is. I think it's going to put us, we could end up with an acre that we
can't use.
Lash: Okay. And that makes sense to me. But I still want to make the motion that we
approve this with the condition.
Andrews: You want to amend your motion?
Lash: Yeah. Well actually I didn't even think I'd made a motion but it kind of got turned
into one. So that the motion would be amended, if I made one before, that we not require the
1 acre but that we require the lakefront parcel and that we still would collect full park and
trail fees.
Don Jensen: A portion of the lakefront parcel, correct? I guess I wouldn't want it so generic
as to a lakefront parcel.
Lash: I wouldn't want anything as generic as a portion of it.
Huffman: It's your amendment.
Lash: Right. I mean I don't know what you're trying to say.
Don Jensen: Well I described the westerly portion of the project where we're pulling the bike
path off the roadway as being an area that seems right for a credit for park purposes. Now
with that plan presentation, the easterly portion is an area we propose to retain for our
purposes of having beachfront access.
Lash: So how much would be left?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Don Jensen: There's approximately, on our proposed plat there's 1.9 acres down there that's
inside the little driveway. So there's a...
Lash: So a portion, an acre would be association and an acre would be city? But the trail
would go through.
Don Jensen: The trail would go through the portion by the city and hug the road and then a
portion by, if you look on Todd's plan, that would be association and then...
Lash: Okay, so the trail wouldn't be going right through the association part so we maybe
wouldn't have that much problem with it then.
Andrews: Would you want to say something as simple as 50% of the available beach right -
of -way be dedicated to the city and 50% remain under the control of the developer?
Don Jensen: That's the question I guess you're asking Council to debate. I mean that's
something I can take with the design. Something that makes some sense land use wise.
...removes conflicts between private and public, then that's certainly. We're going to ask the
Council to give credit for it. We're not going to want to just dedicate it free. Whatever our
lawyers tell us...
' Lash: Well and we'll make it now that there would be no credit for it considering the fact
that you're a PUD and that would be something that we would ask that's above and beyond
the normal.
Andrews: So the motion is that we would require approximately 50% of the lakefront right -
of -way.
1 Lash: And a usable portion.
Andrews: And a usable portion. The westerly 50% approximately. And we've got a second.
Did you second that?
Huffman: Oh god, I'm running on this one.
Andrews: Okay. We've got a motion and a second. Any further discussion?
Huffman: You going to put a guard tower up on your half?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Hoffman: Rather than trail ... do we want to clarify that? Typically... members of the beachlot
association ?...
Lash: He said it's not going to be.
Dan Jensen: Up against Lyman Boulevard on the easterly portion.
Hoffman: Okay, well on this plan it'd be...
Don Jensen: What we had submitted back to planning staff, maybe I can use your marker
Hoffman: You bet.
Don Jensen: Hot dog. Is that trail would run, roughly up to here. Connects back with the
road and goes out this way. Goes up this way and that is out of our current proposal to staff.
That's our current record drawing. It's squiggly now. The trees ... when you're out there, if
you drive it, you can see that it looks logical.
Andrews: Okay ... any more discussion? Any more questions?
Lash moved, Huffman seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that
full park dedication fees be collected per city ordinance. These fees are in lieu of land
dedication, except for the lakefront portion, roughly 50% of the westerly right -of -way. It is
recommended that full trail fees be collected per city ordinance. These fees are in lieu of trail
construction. Trail easements shall be dedicated as depicted on the proposed plat. Interior
trail loop system to be constructed by the applicant. All voted in favor, except Commissioner
Andrews who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 6 to 1.
Andrews: I'm opposed. Only because I think this beachfront's going to be a headache but
otherwise. I mean I like to swim and I like beaches but I just think it's going to be a
headache.
Don Jensen: If I could interject. If the intention is that you think that there's going to be a
docking facility with a roadway, road ramp, that's not going to be the case. Planning staff
was telling us there's no way—granting boat ramp.
Lash: No. Just a small swimming beach. People go down and sit by the lake with a picnic
table...
Andrews: Thank you Mr. Jensen.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 9, 1995
Don Jensen: Can we have a clarification here? ...the first dedication program it was talked
about townhouse as having different numbers, categories... This is typically a townhouse
development... Could we come back to this group or discuss with this group what your mix is
going to be or is that something that, who cares what the market is or what the target market
is, we're going to call it all single family? For example, on the plan.
Andrews: We have nothing to do with this discussion, I can assure you.
Don Jensen: I just wonder because this code, and I don't know whether we bring this in front
of the Planning Commission. Approximately a third of these dwelling units is a single level,
slab on grade dwelling where the buyer could option second floor space if they wanted. If
they have kids come back from school or whatever. Rock solid in the empty nester category,
you normally have two occupants in this townhouse platting.
Hoffman: Single family homes.
Don Jensen: The other's a little bit more tough. We can tell you what our target market is
but there's 2 or 3 bedroom plans so you'd probably say 3 per dwelling would be fair.
Hoffman: As I understand it, these are single family dwellings.
Don Jensen: They're on a townhouse. Called detached townhomes ... market.
Hoffman: The lower fees for a multi-family ... this is single family, detached...
Andrews: That's not our area, sorry. More dollars for the lawyers. Okay.
Lash: Okay, I'm ready to quit now. Didn't know this was going to be so hard.
Andrews: Any other business quickly here? Alright. Hearing none, is there a motion to
adjourn?
Lash moved, Huffman seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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