1d. Planning Commission Minutes dated February 16, 19941
kr
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
FEBRUARY 16, 1994
Chairman Scott called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Joe Scott, Ladd Conrad, Nancy Mancino, Jeff Farmakes and Diane
Harberts
i MEMBERS ABSENT: Matt Ledvina
STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss, Planning Director; Kate Aanenson, Senior Planner;
Sharmin Al -Jaff, Planner I; Dave Hempel, Asst. City Engineer; and Fred Hoisington,
Consultant for Highway 101 Realignment
PUBLIC HEARING:
REVIEW AND SELECT ALIGNMENT OF HIGHWAY 101 FOR USE WHEN IT IS
WMF.NR.D IN THF. FITTITRF._ APPROVAL OF THE "OFFICIAL MAPPI OF
EVALUATED STARTS AT HIGHWAY 5 AND RUNS SOUTH TO LYMAN
BOULEVARD.
' Public Present:
Name Address
Al Klin g elhutz 8600 Great Plains Blvd.
Fred Hoisington presented the report on this item.
Scott: Any questions?
Mancino: Yes. I have a few questions. Fred, which alternative is the most expensive?
Have you done pricing on 1, 2?
Hoisington: Well we haven't really done Nancy pricing but I can tell you that the two
alternatives, the one, 2 and 3.
Mancino: Are the most expensive?
Hoisington: 4 would be the next. And of course the cheapest one would be the use of the
existing alignment.
I
I Mancino: And are 2 and 3 twice as much as 4?
Hoisington: No. I wouldn't say they're twice as much as 4. 4 really takes a pretty good cut
through the topography. There's going to be a lot of cut and fill associated with that but I
would say it's twice as much or more than 1.
' Mancino: And between 2 and 3, do you have an idea which one is more costly?
Hoisington: I would say Nancy that they're very close to the same. The difference would be
that you're probably taking the two houses would make a difference but we're also leaving
right -of -way on the other side of the road so it's kind of hard to say that it would be that,
equal to the cost of those two houses. But very close to the same I would say.
Mancino: And another question Fred. When we, if we were to go in and do, let's see 2.
We would go into the wetland area which has considerable impact and number 3 would also.
' Where would the mitigation of the wetland take place?
Hoisington: That's a good question. Paul, have you given any consideration to where?
' Mancino: And is it 2 to 1?
Krauss: Oh it's 2 to 1. It may even be higher than that given that, depending on how you...
It would be easier to answer if MnDot was doing the planning. MnDot has the ability to...
this virtually anywhere in the State ... Now when we do projects in Chanhassen we have a
' desire to keep the mitigation within our communities since we want to keep the benefit within
our community. We don't know where that would go. I mean you really have to find out
exactly how much it is and then you actually have the obligation to buy up that area and do
i it. I think that there are going to be opportunities to do that. For example the Bluff Creek
corridor where we want to establish expanded wetlands anyway. We're working with Diane
Desotelle, our Water Resource Coordinator to establish—so there will be places we can
identify.
' Mancino: Okay. That's it.
Scott: Any other?
Conrad: Yeah. In terms of the wetland impact, other than sheer size, at this point in time
Fred how can you tell us what it will do to the wetland? There's a lot of functions to the
' wetland. Will it, in terms of filtration and what have you, will that function be destroyed?
Hoisington: Well Ladd there are a number of ways you can deal with wetlands. Paul and I
have talked about the possibility of building a causeway. It's not inconceivable but would be
very expensive to build a bridge. Remember, no matter what you do. Whatever you do with
Highway 101, you're going to impact that wetland to a degree. It's only a matter of degree
2
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
'
and alternatives 1 and 4 both affect it. They don't affect it to the same degree as alternatives
2 and 3 do. The third alternative, other than a causeway or bridge would be to simply fill it.
In which case there will be substantial damage to the wetland. There will be no wetland in
,
that location and it will simply have to be moved elsewhere.
Conrad: So the function of the wetland right now is what?
,
Krauss: Well maybe I can touch on that. It'. s...fairly good quality wetland. That whole
be
wetland, the Rice Marsh Lake wetland suffers serious problems. There used to a package,
,
sewage treatment plan or small—plan back before the metro plans were established. And I
also heard there was a, maybe Al can confirm that but a turkey farm or something... with the
at the bottom of the lake are very organic and basically ... and
'
result being that the sediments
it's been a problem for us that every time it rains, it washes that stuff out of Rice Marsh Lake
and into Lake Riley. So it's a problem that needs to be addressed. We don't have all the
answers to this Ladd and I think at this stage it's reasonable not to. When we designed...
'
Minnewashta Parkway, we don't allow the ... and those are the things that can be done. I
would say though, you've got to take the Rice Marsh Lake ecosystem in it's whole context.
You can't just pull out of the western corner of it and work with that. Because otherwise
'
those problems stay there. We're aware of it. It's probably something we can work out a
cooperative project with the Watershed District, which was exhibited a number of years ago.
,
Conrad: It's like I don't mind filling the wetland. I just mind it if it destroys a function that
can never be replaced. So if it's habitat, we can create habitat some other place. That's not
a big deal. But if it's a filtration that costs ... I hear what you're saying. It's sort of like saying
we can solve the problem yet we're going to pick an alignment and one has a rating of, a
system of less impact and one has more and it's really subjective. I don't mind the more
impact except if it's putting this into a real bad situation and that's sort of like trust me and
I'm not sure because we don't know yet.
'
Krauss: Well one of the things State law requires, and Army Corps is this thing called
sequencing. That we go through an alternatives analysis to see if it's possible to do this
without impacting the wetland. And the conclusion is, no. It's not possible. There's only a
'
narrow neck of land between the two water bodies. It's already occupied by the road. Yes
you can decide to do nothing. I mean that's one of the alternatives we're obligated to look
at. Or keep the right -of -way right where it is right now, which would severely impact all the
'
homes on the lake and arguably come up, you know if you expand the r., ..: . in place there,
you have just as much hard surface area helping all that much more water - ):Lito the Rice
Marsh Lake ecosystem. We still have to treat it. We don't know the answers to all that stuff
'
right now and I think it's a substantial design effort... I think it's really beyond the scope of
what we intend to do right now. We approach this as a land use and transportation issue.
3
1
0
1
n
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
We also approach it from the standpoint that there are people out there who's homes and
lives are affected by this decision and this thing has been up in the air for a number of years
and we thought that we owe them some resolution to that.
Conrad: Fred, when you take down 79 trees, and again I don't mind taking down trees.
What, unless it significantly changes the character. 79 as compared to what? When we take
down some old trees, what are we left with out there? Have we destroyed a large percentage
of the hardwoods? Have we destroyed a small percentage? What's the character that has
been left as we put this road through? Alternative 3 road.
Hoisington: Ladd ... in the course of the former alingment, the alignment further to the north,
as you know the vegetation there was impacted but it was not nearly the quality that the
vegetation is in this corridor. This will have a significant impact and I, there will be
vegetation elected on the east side. I don't believe there will be anything left. There will be
along the existing alignment of TH 101, some of the major oaks that are there will be left.
Vegetation will frame the road on both sides. As far as the percentage of the total stand
there, I'm not sure exactly what that percentage would break down to. All I can say it's a
significant loss. I think you have to make the assumption, this assumption. And Paul eluded
to this. That if the road is to be improved, there's going to be a substantial impact. You
can't avoid it. There's no way you can avoid it in this case. And if for example you were
interested in going with alternative 4, which appears to have a relatively minor impact in
comparison to alternatives 2 and 3, you also lose something in terms of the vertical alignment
of the roadway. What we're able to do in this case is to maintain a 1, for the most part a 1%
grade. There's a little stretch that's a little steeper than that but if you end up trying to put
that all the way down as low as you can make it so you minimally impact the wetland, you
end up with not the best vertical alignment for the road. I don't think there's any way you
can avoid a significant impact there. I just don't know how it would be done. And even if
we hadn't used, hadn't moved the road over already and tied in at this point, we'd still have
to confront these very same problems.
Harberts: I guess I just have comments. Fred kind of touched on it. That this is probably a
project that the community, in terms of the values that we try to bring to commission on the
environment. That 101 certainly is going to, is a road that's going to have a major, play a
major role in the community, especially in the area of development and from my perspective,
what I, Fred I think you did a very good job. You've certainly been working on this for a
while but it's probably one where we really have to look at the role that this roadway will
play in the commur ft and in a sense bite the bullet with regards to some of the values that
we're trying to bring to all of the developments. I guess I would just encourage this
commission, as well as the City Council, to look at the alternative that's going to best serve
the need of mobility in this community.
4
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Scott: Jeff.
Farmakes: I support 2. No further comments. I think the issue, if you want me to make
some further comments under open discussion.
Scott: Please.
Farmakes: This is something that has to be done and as the staff representative here has said,
there is no easy solution to this and the issue seems to me, if it has to be done and we're
looking at what's the best way to do it. The way with the least amount of impact does not
solve the issue of traffic, which is the reason we build highways because they're very
expensive and if we build them, we should build them well. I think all of us have seen areas
of the metro traffic system that break down in spots and are poorly designed and the reason
for that is, not necessarily that they had the opportunity to design them well. There were
extraneous, usually extraneous guidelines that they had to follow. Either politics or
neighborhoods or so on. I think that the issue affords to me the maximum return on the least
amount of damage and if there isn't a cost factor, the difference is wash between 2 and 3, I'd
go with 2.
Harberts: So your preference is number 2 based on if it's a wash of the complete cost?
Farmakes: It seems to me that the trees issue is a wash. The environment issue is a wash. It
seems to me that between 2 and 3, it has less of an impact and again, if you throw everything
up in the air, I see 2 I'd support over 3 but 3 would be a close second. I think it has to be
done.
Scott: Fred you were mentioning that by the year 2005 there's going to be 11,000 vehicles
per day to 13,000.
Hoisington: 15,000.
Scott: To 15? Could you give us an example of a roadway, it sounds like it's about half of
Highway 5. If you can give us an idea of the roadway here. Are we talking Powers? And
then if you could tell us also, how much traffic does TH 101 have on it today?
Hoisington: TH 101 as recently as, do you have the current traffic? The traffic has been
growing rather dramatically on TH 101. When we first started this study we were only like
2,500 vehicles per day just south of Highway 5. I'm going to guess now. That sounds
reasonably that we probably have closer to 4, maybe 5 at this point. Of course we've
dispersed that a little bit because we still have existing TH 101 which is the curly Q and we
5
r
7
L�
1 Planning Commission Meeting - Febru 16, 1994
' also have Market Boulevard. So we're now dividing that up to a degree so it's kind of hard
to say what the traffic is really there wanting to be in that corridor and once the old road is
' cut off, how much of it is actually over on the other one. As far as a comparable street as
far as traffic volumes in the city, with 15,000, is there another one?
I Krauss: Well TH 101 north of TH 5 operates...
Scott: Oh okay. And that is kind of 2 lanes, kind of 4 lanes. Mostly 2.
Krauss: In that state.
' Scott: Okay. Also too from a speed limit standpoint, who decides the speed and then how
does that work with who pays?
' Hoisington: Well MnDot has a great deal of control over your lives when it comes to setting
speed limits but typically the way it's established, I think it's 80% of, David knows that.
80% of traffic should travel at less than the speed limit that you set because you're going to
' have a certain number of people that are going to travel in excess of that speed limit in any
case. The problem is if you set it wrong. Let's say you set it at 40 and really it should be
50, then you've got a real problem in this case and I guess that decision will have to be made
later and if it's determined that it's a 50 mph roadway, then there will have to be some super
elevations. It won't change the alignment or anything Joe, it will just simply have a kilt to it.
' Scott: It will change the cost.
Hoisington: It will change the cost. Well, the cost probably won't be that much different. I
' wouldn't say there would be that much cost difference. It's just a matter of tipping it so that
people can stay on it.
Scott: Okay. And then, let me think. Also from a waiting standpoint, and I can appreciate
where you're coming from and having everything being equal. If the other commissioners
want to do this, do you feel it'd be appropriate to talk a little bit about which of these items
should be weighted more heavily than others, if any? Because I took at look at one, I was
trying to determine, what would be at least in my mind the least important and I have to ask
Fred a question about, when you talk about the impact on the trail. I notice that the third
alternative, I think if you took that particular�mpact out or if you minimize it's weight, then
the alternatives become within 1 or 2 points and it pretty much becomes a wash. So if you
could please tell us a little bit about your thoughts on impact of the trail and is it a cost item?
Is it a safety item? Is it both?
Z
I
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 r
• It's a grade separation situation Joe. With alternatives 2 and 3 you actually '
HoiHoisington: i s gr p Y Y can
run the trail underneath the roadway. With alternatives 1 and 4, you will have at grade
crossings. The whole idea was to minimally impact the wetland. Get the road down as low '
as you can get which means you can't pass a trail underneath it without putting a sump pump
or whatever down there to accommodate it. So it really is a matter of grade separation.
That's the whole difference in that. Now, I think that's pretty important and I would give '
that some weight but there are things, there are criteria in there that probably are not equal in
importance to some of the others in this case and we haven't tried to suggest that one is or is '
not. In that case trails is grade separation, that's what the difference is.
Scott: Okay. Do any of the other commissioners want to discuss the weighting at all or just I
take it as is and go from there?
Mancino: Let somebody else do it. I
Conrad: Joe, it's impossible to figure out.
Scott: Okay, good. I wanted to toss that out to see if anybody want to go with it. Any other '
comments or questions for city staff?
Conrad: Just one. There is a median in alternative 2 and not in alternative 3?
Hoisington: Both of them have medians. They're both almost identical roadways Ladd. 24 '
foot.
Mancino: I have a quick question. On page 17 under trails. The last paragraph before the '
park and ride transit. It says that a recreational lane will be separated from the auto traffic by
a jersey barrier.
Hoisington: Yes. '
Mancino: What's that? '
Hoisington: Up here on Highway 5, the railroad bridge has a jersey barrier. But I think that
one also has a fence above it. The reason it has a fence is because it's so tight to the traffic '
lane. I believe that's why there's a fence. This one we would not want to see a fence on top
of because we think it's ugly to begin with. But it'd be the same jersey barrier. Stands about
3 1/2, is it David, feet tall? And it's just one of those things to separate Nancy the traffic
from the pedestrian.
7 r
Ll
1
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Mancino: So if I'm looking at Figure 6, Section B? Or Section C and I go to the right side
of the page, where it says proposed 240 feet right -of -way. There is that 10 foot trail.
Inbetween the 10 foot trail and the right -of -way is this jersey barrier?
Hoisington: No. No. The jersey barrier we'll only have on the bridge. The Highway 212
bridge. That's the only place it will be.
Mancino: Okay, thank you.
Scott: Good. Any other comments? This is a public hearing so if anybody would either like
to speak either for a particular alternative or against a particular alternative, please step
forward and state your name and your address into the microphone and if you have any
exhibits or anything, we'll try to help you position them so they can be picked up on the
video.
Al Klingelhutz: I'm Al Klingelhutz. I live on 8600 Great Plains Blvd in Chanhassen. I
guess it's just too bad that Highway 212 is being delayed as much because virtually all of this
road would have been built by the State Highway Department because it's going to be a
major road into the city of Chanhassen. A collector street. I'm not going to talk about what
Fred mentioned before about the assessments. I think we can talk about that later. But I
really think it's time that the landowners, and I'm one of them. Keith Barts was ready to sell
his property in 1988. A lot of discussion on this road in '89. Where it was going to go.
I've got four purchase agreements in my file at the office that were offers for Barts' property
at that time and because of the fact the road alignment was never set, they all backed away
from it. Today I've got another purchase agreement on Barts property and I guess in order to
make the sale come through we're going to have to have a mapping of that road so that any
developer that comes in actually will know where that road's going to go. It's been a
problem. I know we've had 2 or 3 neighborhood meetings. A good share of the people at
these meetings approved alternate 3. Number 3. I don't think any one of the alternatives,
even though they're, put alternate 4 up there once more Fred. ...and to me I think alternate 4
would affect the wetland more than any one of the other alternates. It's closer to Rice Marsh
Lake and there is more potential for any more wetland in there.
Hoisington: This one you're talking about Al?
Al Klingelhutz: The one that swung out the furthest.
Hoisington: Oh, you're talking about alternative 2?
Al Klingelhutz: Yes. Where the road is now is the least amount of wetland and I don't
8
i]
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
Mancino: I think one was 79 and one was 74.
31cott: Yeah, 74 or something like that.
Farmakes: What I don't want to see happen is that we come up with an alternative that isn't '
going to work as a highway.
9
F
'
believe that if the road wasn't there, there would be much difference in the wetlands. That
wetland was filled and the bridge was put through underneath the road at the time and it took
away some of the wetland where the road is. You know but I would think, I sure hope that
'
you come up with a final conclusion on it and I believe alternate 3 that you're recommending
and the neighborhood seems to support it the most. There were 1 or 2 against it. I
understand one fellow bought the house and one guy in one house just soon get out right
now. And that's ... He's as old as I am. Probably not in quite as good a shape but he'd like to
get out so. I didn't like the one where the spread was about 300 feet inbetween. You'd have
a row of houses between two roads. In the business I'm in, I know what a problem it is to
'
even sell a lot between two major roads and the type of houses you'll get in there would not
benefit the neighbors who live on Lake Susan. Thank you.
,
Scott: Good thank Y ou. Would anybody else like to address the Planning Commission? Let
the record show that there is no one else. Can I have a motion to close the public hearing?
Mancino seconded to close the . All voted in favor and public hearing. Conrad moved, P g
the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
'
Scott: Ladd.
Conrad: I said what I had to say.
'
Scott: Okay. Any other comments? Can I have a motion please?
Harberts: I'm not making a motion yet but I would be inclined to go along with staff in the
report in terms of alternative 3 as a preference. I would just like to have a little dialogue
with the other members as to what. I know where Jeff stands or desires in terms of what was
a close call. 2 or 3.
Farmakes: 2 represents slightly less damage, is the extent of the difference. If there's not a
'
price difference, I don't. It's negligible the difference. Just figure the less is more.
forth.
Scott: And they both have about similar impact relative to the trees and so
Mancino: I think one was 79 and one was 74.
31cott: Yeah, 74 or something like that.
Farmakes: What I don't want to see happen is that we come up with an alternative that isn't '
going to work as a highway.
9
F
t
1
u
L
Planning Commission Meeting - February ,16.,,:1994_
Scott: That the highway's going to go from a scenic connection between Shakopee and
Chanhassen and kind of a local traffic, to now where it's going to be draining toward 212 so.
Especially heading south and going north so. I was kind of tossed between 2 and 3. I could
support the staff's recommendation.
Conrad: I can too.
Mancino: I can too and I would say for 3, the reason being is, or the pros that Fred put in
his report being that it was good buffering for the homes abutting Lake Susan and that there
was total use of land between existing TH 101 and the proposed alternate 3. I think those
were the strong points for me that were written in the report.
Scott: Okay. Are we ready for a motion?
Mancino: I move that we approve Alternate 3 alignment of Highway 101.
Scott: Is there a second?
Harberts: I'll second that.
Scott: Okay, it's been moved and seconded that we adopt the staff recommendation. Is there
any discussion?
Mancino moved, Harberts seconded that the Planning Commission recommend Alternate
#3 for the official mapping of Highway 101 from Highway 5 running south to Lyman
Boulevard. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Harberts: Paul, are we looking at like a 3 or 4 year perhaps actual build time when funding
can be found, at the earliest?
Krauss: It's possibly less than that ...As Fred mentioned earlier, what I'm beginning to believe
is going to happen, we may well need to build the temporary improvements to serve
development in that area long before anybody is ready to do it. The issue of MnDot funding
is a very tough one ... fallen another 2 or 3 hundred million dollars behind to committed
projects. This is one that they haven't been committed to since 1933 so.
Harberts: How did that Governor Carlson's State of the Address, I can never get it straight.
When he somehow found $94 million for highway. How does that impact 212?
10
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
Krauss: We're not sure. That was funding that they were reinstituting for projects that they '
had previous funded but cut.
Harberts: But did that include 212? '
Krauss: My guess is that it might but typically what happens is you've got to figure on '
outstate getting 60 cents on every dollar.
Harberts: I was just wondering. I hadn't had a chance to check out the numbers. ,
Krauss: Well $30 million doesn't buy a heck of a lot when it comes to roads.
• No it doesn't. Especially when it's...Wh '
Harberts. p Y Y is it the with that key funding,
that perhaps you're not ready to move ahead with this type of thing through the current
solicitation. '
Krauss: Well we're not sure which category to put it first of all. I mean I see it as a
wonderful program but ... is also underfunded. The feds approved it and they funded it at 80% t
of the level that they approved it at and people at MnDot are given actually less
transportation money throwing—than before. Plus there's more handout for it because '
communities like Chanhassen can get it for pedestrian bridges, to Southwest Metro and other
things. It all used to go to straight highway construction.
Harberts: Well I'm just thinking with the, looking at the innermotal aspect of this is the trail, '
the park and ride. I would think that it would certainly be a top candidate.
Krauss: Yeah but it unfortunately it is from a local standpoint and certainly desirable. But '
it's not a major highway in the regional system.
Harberts: Oh I see. So it's one of those minor arterials type of things? '
Krauss: Yes. '
Harberts: What about with President Clinton's funding proposal, what was it $400 million in
capital funding. I think that came out in President Clinton's budget. Is that an opportunity '
that ISTEA might be at a higher percentage?
Krauss: Diane I don't know but I've heard over the years, I'll believe it when I see it. '
Harberts: Okay, thanks.
11
1
L --1
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Scott: We have a second public hearing tonight and due to the situation of notices, vis a vis
the adjoining property holders, we will have a public hearing but we will continue the public
hearing until our next Planning Commission meeting which will be on the 2nd of March.
Also item number 3, Lotus Realty Services, we will have a public hearing but that public
hearing will be continued until our next meeting. So there will be no motions or there will
be no action taken on items number 2 and 3 of the agenda until the next meeting.
PUBLIC HEARING:
CHANHASSEN KINGDOM HALL FOR A SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A 3,800
SQUARE FOOT CHURCH TO BE CONSTRUCTION ON AN 87,113 SQUARE FOOT
PARCEL LOCATED ON LOT 1 BLOCK 1 CHANHASSEN BUSINESS CENTER,
' LOCATED SOUTH OF THE CHICAGO, MILWAUKEE, ST. PAUL AND PACIFIC
RAILROAD AND WEST OF AUDUBON ROAD.
Kate Aanenson presented the staff report on this item.
Harberts: Has Public Safety had a chance to look at this with regards to the circulation of
cars in the parking area?
Aanenson: Yes.
Harberts: And they're okay with it?
Aanenson: Yeah. The only issue that they raised was that the appropriate marking of...and
they felt that was fine.
Harberts: What about with regards to public safety.
Harberts: Right.
Aanenson: Turning radius of emergency vehicles?
Aanenson: Yeah.
Harberts: That works?
Aanenson: Yep.
Harberts: Okay. Was that in the report or it just wasn't...
12
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
Harberts: I think it needs to be somewhere around 8 to 10 feet. '
13
,
Aanenson: There wasn't a specific letter from the Fire Marshal but we did look at that.
Scott: Any other comments, questions for staff?
'
Mancino: I think I'll wait for their presentation.
'
Scott: Okay, good. I just have one question, as I recall going through the conditions. There
isn't a condition for approval that has to do with the construction of the berm or surety for
that, which we want to add when we do the motion on the 2nd of March. We'd like to hear
from the applicant or their representative. If you could please, if you'd like to present, please
step forward and identify yourself.
'
Steve Kern: Good evening. My name is Steve Kern at 6540 Devonshire Drive, Chanhassen.
I'm here mostly to answer questions. I think your staff did a fine job of presenting the whole
project pretty well. The main thing that's been taking place is that if we hear more input
'
with the approved project, we go along with and add to in a revised drawing. Those two
photographs that we showed you are from the Cologne congregation right on the Highway
212 and the purpose of sharing those with you, if you did get those in your mail, was that
they help address the ... and that top photograph shows a similar view to what we would see on
the elevation drawings only about 3 times the distance or 130 feet... And also the other view
,
that we've done, is very similar when you go to the south coming over the bridge. If you
look over that northeast—where we're proposing to break it up with large trees and break that
roofline a little bit. The shrubbery as an ... all the way around the building ... and we're
'
interested in making a real nice site that's going to be very eye appealing to the community.
The building itself is identical to these photographs with a few changes are down inside...
Harberts: How high is the drive thru canopy? How high is that? Maybe the real question is,
is it high enough to get a public transit vehicle through there? People that require—service.
'
Steve Kern: Yes.
Harberts: Do we have dimensions on that?
'
Steve Kern: ...construction drawing looking at the top and it actually gives the ... Last year we
built 200 of these around the world. Those issue! —e always addressed and being that you've
got the handicapped ramp that's presented in thu: ` " drawing that you have right there...
We're recognizing small buses and other kinds of buses might drop people off for a large
event. The ramp is there and the height requirement...
'
Harberts: I think it needs to be somewhere around 8 to 10 feet. '
13
r:.
L
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Steve Kern: I'm pretty sure it's taller than that.
Conrad: Kate, what's the impervious surface ratio of that?
Aanenson: 70 %.
Conrad: It is 70? What if the church grows? Do you add on or what happens?
Steve Kern: Well, we don't add on. ...always stay the same. Right now we have an average
of 90 people—and my guess is around 150 -170 and then they change our territory for maybe
some might be asked to go to Shakopee. Some might be asked to go to Cologne if they're
not growing very fast. You also have a hall in the Navarre area. Edina ... and if 20 years from
now they were all full or they didn't wish to participate, we have in the past doubled our
meetings so we have a Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday. Tuesday's a large meeting where the hall
is 90 or 100 and Sundays is 90 to 100. The Tuesday meeting is one ... so what we would do is
start a second congregation in Chanhassen and then they would use Wednesday night and
Friday night.
Conrad: Do you ever have times when you have a lot more people on site?
Steve Kern: It would be weddings, which in this particular group they're either very old or
very young. I don't see anything coming up. On the average once every 5 years we see a
wedding take place. The final drawings we show chair seating, we would put up about 155
chairs to be comfortable. Very extended browsing room in the back but the plan from New
York show that you can get 208 chairs in there which the parking was relied on ... to come up
with 73. So we could expand in a wedding situation...
Conrad: Kate, do we allow parking on Audubon?
Aanenson: No.
Conrad: So where do they go when they have those particular events? Because you're kind
of isolated right now.
Steve Kern: I think that, like right now we're only seeing 30 cars. 35 cars that come with
those 90 people and families. And so in a wedding per se, would probably bring us into that
73 range. I don't know if temporary permits are possible. What we sometimes have done
is ... a community center or school and get permission to use their parking and bus people back
and forth.
14
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
Scott: Kate, just one question. With the drainage of the NURP pond that either it is built or '
has yet to be built. Is there going to be replacement for the rip rap? Kind of overland
drainage or is that just always going to drain over land into the swale by the tracks?
15
,
Aanenson: There might be another user inside the industrial park they can shuttle them back
and forth.
'
Scott: Have you got any other questions for the applicant?
Farmakes: I don't see any landscaping in front of the sign area. I don't see any on the plan,
'
although there's not a detailed.
Steve Kern: Yeah being that the signage was drafted here just today I guess. The plans that
'
you have we have shrubbery around the building. Nothing ... but we certainly could add that
in the proposal. We want landscaping.
'
Farmakes: I think that would integrate it better to the building situation if you look at that. I
don't have any further comments on the structure.
Mancino: I have a couple comments and questions on the landscaping. In the staff report
there seems to be a mixture of Kentucky Coffee, maples, Ginkgo along Audubon. Where are
they? I can't.
Aanenson: They don't show up on this plan ... If you go out and visit the site, they're around
there. That was part of the improvement project we did ... in the city's right -of -way. What we
'
would want to—They have submitted another landscape plan...
Mancino: Okay. Well one of my suggestions would be that if we have boulevard
'
landscaping on Audubon, and let's say the trees are planted every 20 feet apart, etc that when
we go in and put the berm, the 4 foot berm and it is a continuous berm?
,
Aanenson: Well we'd like to see if that...
'
Mancino: That we use some plant massings instead of doing one every 16 feet or something
like that. I think that your choice of the lindens, the little leaf one is great. They get a
nice ... tall and have a good span but I would like to see some massing. And maybe some
'
other coniferous trees that will give screening all year. That would be my suggestion to add
to that because the main reason for putting that screening, according to our ordinance, is to...
parking lots and cars so we would like to do it also you know in a long winter light too: So
I'd like to add that to...
Scott: Kate, just one question. With the drainage of the NURP pond that either it is built or '
has yet to be built. Is there going to be replacement for the rip rap? Kind of overland
drainage or is that just always going to drain over land into the swale by the tracks?
15
fl
11
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Hempel: Once we review the final parking lot grading plan from the applicant here, we'll
determine whether or not the velocity of runoff is enough to require rip rap. We may be able
to maintain a ... area for the runoff to go through. Kind of sheet drain it through the parking
lot similar to what we've done in the Industrial Control out on Park Drive. Their parking lot
sheet drains... .
Scott: Drains to the creek, yeah.
Hempel: ...so we'll be looking at that in detail ... We recommended to the applicant that
they—to minimize runoff in one direction...
Scott: Okay. Any other questions or comments? Okay. Seeing none, this item will be
continued to the next Planning Commission meeting. Thank you very much for coming in.
PUBLIC HEARING:
LOTUS REALTY SERVICES FOR A SITE PLAN REVIEW OF A 9,660 SQUARE
FOOT OFFICE RETAIL BUIDLING (EDINA REALTY) AND A 2,533 SQUARE FOOT
FAST FOOD RESTAURANT (WENDY'S) TO BE LOCATED ON LOT 4 AND
OUTLOT A. MARKET SQUARE.
Sharmin Al -Jaff presented the staff report on this item.
Scott: We'll probably do questions and answers of staff and then have the applicant make
their presentation. Do that.
Farmakes: The contractual agreement the city has on a PUD, what is the time line in effect?
Does it go on ad infinitum?
Krauss: To the best of my knowledge... determination basically what you did back in '89 was
dropped the underlying zoning of the property and substituted the PUD ... I know there is some
language that was implemented in the Lake Susan Hills.
Mancino: So many years.
Krauss: Yeah. That -, an uncommon stipulation and I don't believe they put it here.
Farmakes: How do we apply, what if anything, has been changed in the interim of time to
consideration of this development? What was appropriate?
16
1
r]
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
Krauss: Well, this goes into one of those grayer areas where you know, I mean this is a
PUD. I can remember sitting in this chair 5 years ago arguing in front of the City Council
and the developer that a PUD was a contract and established obligations of both the city and '
the developer, which the developer objected to strenuously. This was one of the first that
established some criteria in that regard. Relative to new criteria that's been developed since
then, there's certainly been a lot, from the strict standpoint of the PUD itself, you probably
don't have a lot of leverage. From the aspect of any HRA financial supports they may be
receiving... leverage in that area.
Farmakes: Is the Highway 5 Task Force recommendations, how do those interplay with this '
g Y
PUD?
Krauss: The Highway 5 I guess we haven't reviewed it in detail... Highway 5 district would '
establish the downtown—to the best of my knowledge consistent with the general parameters
of that. But in essence we have a PUD in place that supercedes it, it's, I don't, the term '
grandfathered in...
Farmakes: And that includes four oudots that haven't been built upon yet?
Krauss: Yes. I
Mancino: My question on that is when is an outlot, what's the reasoning for making it an
outlot at the time of the PUD versus a lot? I
Al -Jaff: We speculated that possibly taxes but we really didn't find anything.
Mancino: I mean a lot of times we make things an outlot that we're not going to build on. '
Krauss: Well a lot of times you make things an outlot that will be platted at a future time.
All the future phases for example in Hans Hagen's development are platted as oudots and
when they're ready to plat homes on them, they come in and review the outlot status and do
final plat.
Harberts: There's a tax advantage to outlots versus...?
Krauss: I don't know if there is or isn't but you can bet if there was, that developer would
find one.
Mancino: g
in : And I mean who owns right now the land here? I mean who owns Outlot A and
Lot 4? Who has ownership?
17
1
u
1
7
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Krauss: At the present time, you know it's my understanding that the city owns it and we
have a purchase agreement in place, a standing agreement that we will sell it back to the
developer for a given price ... and that purchase agreement has existed for a number of years.
Mancino: Now we own it, the city owns it. And we have a purchase agreement with another
party. What if we don't want to sell it?
Krauss: What the City Manager's told me is that the city has the potential of exercising an
option to keep it. There are additional funds that need to be paid in that circumstance and it
was his impression... the agreement that obligates us to buy all four lots uniformally
throughout this site, the office site and the two unbuilt lots closest to the Subway restaurant.
We would then own all of those.
Mancino: We would own them and could we at a later date then sell them to another party?
Krauss: I honestly don't know and there may be some burden placed upon the city if we
foreclose upon development. There may be some limitations ... I don't know. If you'd like...
Mancino: I'd like to know our options as a city, what we can and can't do.
Harberts: Is there potential for funding from the HRA involved with this project?
Krauss: Yes. I do know that we do not have the ability to elect to just buy for example
Wendy's.
Mancino: Part of it.
Krauss: Right.
Farmakes: What's the zone. Has the zoning changed in regards to office retail since '89?
Krauss: Well, some of the PUD conditions have.
Farmakes: Is the PUD in regards to the office retail differentiate? That was before my time
here. Are we looking again at a similar situation as down the street here where it's listed as
an office building but primarily the lower levr in this case, it's a one story building, is
essentially retail. Is that a fielder's choice situation here with this particular development?
Or I understand one is a major tenant, is a realty company.
Krauss: That's true but I think you're right. Your characterization as some kind of an
18
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
f al is probably accurate. As I recall, parking inbetween type o animal p y p g will allow some retail use
in that building. It probably is going...
1 could be looking at retail signage armakes: So we potentially g adjacent to 78th, facing the J
city? '
Krauss: No. What you're going to get there. The signage is regulated by the overall PUD
agreement. That sign allocation was established 5 years ago and they can't deviate from that.
Now I don't, and maybe Sharmin can expand on what ... tenant.
Al -Jaff: It would allow two signs on two of the...
Farmakes: So I assume north and south.
Al -Jaff: Correct. Or east and west. ,
Farmakes: So there would be individual tenant signage facing the city and the park. I
Al -Jaff: The more I read the covenants, the more I was picturing the Medical Arts buidling.
As far as signage. '
Harberts: That would be an example.
Al -Jaff: Yes. The covenants ... or the existing signage on the Market Square.
Farmakes: And the use would be subject to change as the tenants would change, between
business and retail.
Al -Jaff: But then if they change, they would have to meet all the parking criteria and if they '
can't meet that, then we won't allow the occupancy to take place.
Krauss: But that wouldn't precluse retail use. It would preclude say a restaurant going up
with a liquor license...
Farmakes: The monument signage that we're looking at, are you recommending that it be the t
same height as the existing monument signage currently in Market Square?
Al -Jaff: As well as design.
Farmakes: Is in '89 the agreement, that agreement was included in '89 in the PUD?
19
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Al -Jaffa Correct.
Farmakes: On the height restriction. How tall are those signs currently?
Al -Jaffa I believe they are 8 feet high.
Farmakes: 8 feet. I saw in the agreement that it was higher than that on the report. Maybe
not.
Mancino: We don't have any signage...
Scott: No, but we have pictures there.
Farmakes: 14 feet?
Al -Jaff: Well that's what it says in the.
Farmakes: PUD agreement.
Al -Jaffa In the PUD agreement.
Farmakes: Which would be substantially higher than any other monument signage that we
have.
Al -Jaff: Correct. There is one monument signage that is at that height. However, it faces.
Farmakes: The highway.
Al -Jaff: The corner...
Scott: Are you talking about Center Drug?
Al -Jaff: Pardon?
Scott: Are you talking about the tenant in the corner of.
Al -Jaff: Right next to Center Drug.
Farmakes: Lawn and Sports?
20
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
Al -Jaff: Yes. Lawn and Sports. There's a 14 foot high monument sign. I
Farmakes: That's a part of the building though isn't it? 1
Al -Jaffa Yes and no really.
Farmakes: That's the overhang coming off that's attached to the structure of the building. '
Al -Jaff: Yes. And I think that's what this clause was for. But none of the other signs reach
that.
Farmakes: So the clause envisioned it being attached to the building? The structure itself? 1
So sort of a connected skyway to the pylon sign.
Al -Jaff: That's how I interpreted it. Because otherwise there's really no need to have the '
clause in there. That would be the only structure that would meet this criteria. 14 foot high.
But in speaking of the applicants, they indicated that the signs that they are proposing will
be ... signage that it is out there. The monument sign that is out there. And that's why we '
requested that they submit a plan that can be approved by Planning Commission and City
Council and we make sure that they are identical to what's out there. '
Scott: And we'll see that on the 2nd?
Al -Jaff: Yes.
Mancino: I think when we get these developments, to see the signage at the same time that '
we look at the site plan would be very advantageous so we can look at the materials. We can
look at everything as a unit. I mean as a whole. See how it works together.
Harberts: And when you're talking about the materials Nancy, you're also talking colors, '
things like that?
Mancino: Right. The real thing.
Farmakes: It would be advantageous to it to look rather than typically how we get a signage '
direction. We will see a schematic or an elevation drawing and we will see an example on
one tenant. Truly how you see each, potentially each minimum tenant has a sign so the
accumulation of that should be part of that, even if it's fictional. It should show what the '
maximum extent of that package would be.
21
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Harberts: This is a pretty focal point for the community so I have to agree with those
comments.
' Al -Jaffa It would be an anchor building for that corner... Market and West 78th. That's going
to be a prime area in Chanhassen.
Scott: Any other comments or questions? Okay. This is a public hearing so if anyone
would like to address the Planning Commission, please step up. Identify yourselves and we'll
' be interested in your thoughts.
(The following discussion did not get picked up very well on tape as people were not
' speaking loud enough or directly into the microphones.)
Vernelle Clayton: Since I recognize the rest of the people as being part of our group...
Vernelle Clayton. I'm representing Lotus Realty here tonight. Rather than a free willy
montage of facts and figures that you usually get from Brad, he had to be out of town
tonight, I'll present the project. However less colorfully but hopefully I'll be able to give you
' some background. Explain to you all, try to get a little bit ... and how it got there. And I'm
saying that because I understand, although I wasn't there, that that very question was, has
been posed to Council and staff by the Council. By legal counsel and staff. By the
' Chanhassen Council because there is some confusion I think and lack of understanding on
how we did get to where we are with the project. Partly because the project took so
incredibly long to get off the ground. Phase I did. The plan and the Planning Commission
' stage I'm sure, although I wasn't involved at that point, took place long before probably
everybody except Ladd was on the Planning Commission and I guess if you're not on the
commission or ... HRA, you probably weren't involved ... of what went on. I would like to say
' also that I don't want to spend all evening with you reviewing what ... thank heavens it's over
and ... breathe a sigh of relief but one of the things that occurred was that there was a change
' in the attitude of lenders and financing. And in fact we experienced a change in a lender.
One of the other things that happened, thankfully, the city was extremely cooperative and
helpful in filling that gap because they recognized the need for a shopping center and
' particularly a grocery store and it was a high priority item at that time. So in a nutshell, to
summarize what happened in several months and many meetings here, the city, as a way of
infusing the necessary additional equity that the more stringent lending requirements ... are
dictated, purchased this particular piece of land which is now comprised of two separate
parcels from the Bloomberg Companies. But unlike other purchases that the city, that -the
HRA. It was at the HRA... but this was the HRA that did it. Not the city itself... The HRA.
in other cases had purchased land outright and just plain owns it and uses it for development.
For example there's ... that the HRA owns that and can sell it or do whatever they want. They
could I suppose if they chose build something on it and manage it and operate it. This is
22
r-
L
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
different. This was purchased. They agreed to purchase the lot and in return for Bloomberg
agreeing to repurchase it. So there was at the time the purchase agreement was signed, an
option that was also an option to repurchase by Bloomberg... simultaneously. And attached to
that document is the purchase agreement that spelled out the terms under which Bloomberg
will close on the land. So that explains where we got, how you got to where you are. How
some people say gee, the HRA owns this land. Why is development being proposed on our
land perhaps? I don't know what all the decision might be but it was always planned that
this project would be developed as a part of Market Square and that Bloomberg would
exercise their option when a purchase agreement came, when a purchaser came along for
them such as Wendy's. And that's what's occurring now. There is a different agreement on
Lot 2 and 3 where unlike Bloombergs having an option to purchase, they didn't ... 2 and 3 but
I didn't want other misunderstandings going on here. That agreement is with Market Square
Associates Limited Partnership which is the owner of Lot 1, which is Market Square. Under
that agreement there is no option. There is a requirement that they, the partnership purchase
it. So they're not connected and they're separate agreements with separate entities. Now
because Paul remembers it one way and I went ... not having a million other transactions flow
across my desk. I can certainly understand how people coming on the Planning Commission
who may not have had a, may not have even lived here for all I know at the time this was
going on, would not have a clear understanding of what those documents say. They are in
addition to that, a little more complex. There is a possibility that the city could find a third
party offer and in that case Bloomberg has the right to meet that offer. Practically speaking
Wendy's wanted to be there and is offering a whole lot more than the city's contract with
them says, there is no apparent reason to me why if they came up with a third party offer that
Bloomberg wouldn't say yeah, I'll match it.
Farmakes: Can I ask you a quick question?
Vernelle Clayton: Sure.
Farmakes: Wendy's has a contract with the city?
Vernelle Clayton: Wendy's has a contract with, actually Lotus Realty who is coordinating all
of this. Bloomberg is the one that has the option that can be exercised but in order to
transfer all of the—deeper, we determined it would be wise to present one site plan for this
because two small site plans could lend to not a very good flow of the site. Not coordinated
landscaping. Not coordl�:.. ;.d construction and we wanted it all coordinated. So to
coordinate it we, Lotus ;: a purchase agreement with Bloomberg. Bloomberg will exercise
their option and then Lotus plans to transfer title to Wendy's as well as to a partnership
which will be comprised of largely the same partners that own Market Square I.
23
n
J
0
0
i
1
L
n
G
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Harberts: Vernelle, you commented that when Market Square was being developed or
proposed or whatever, that this was always the intent. This project with the intent of going
forward but because of financial difficulties or whatever, that's why it's so slow. When you
commented that this was going to, this was the intent, did that intent mean a fast food
restaurant and this type of other building that's being proposed or just that some type of
development would occur?
Vemelle Clayton: I said that there were financial problems. It was the whole world you
know fell apart for financing any kind of real estate and we had not intended at that point to
be developing these parcels along with Market Square. So they weren't, it's not true to say
that these parcels weren't developed then because of lack of financing. It was kind of an
extraordinary effort on Brad's part that he was able to fill 80,000 square feet at the time it
opened. Any more than that is typically planned when you do, most shopping centers of this
size, and particular those that are larger, have a major center and 2 or 3 other lots which ... to
Nancy and that we apparently call them all outlots and we refer to all of these lots, whether
they're legally Lots 2, 3 or whatever we call them outlots. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe
it's not...I may have misunderstood your question. But in any event, to answer your question,
yes. We thought there was a great likelihood that there would be a fast food restaurant here.
We also thought always that there'd be some kind of additional retail. We didn't think there
would be whatever might be proposed on Lots 2 and 3 because at that time, at the time that
the whole process was approved, the Council and the Planning Commission also approved a
vetrinary building and a drive thru for that site. So you'll see those on old plans when you
see old plans...
Farmakes: Wasn't there also another proposal of a bank building?
Vernelle Clayton: I'm sorry.
Farmakes: Wasn't there also another proposal of the Americana Bank building?
Krauss: Several years later.
Vemelle Clayton: Right. That was several years later. They proposed and that's how this
little snaffu with the outlot came about. They originally this whole area was called Outlot A.
Everything we're talking about tonight was called Outlot A. And they went at the time -the
Americana Bank wanted to be here, they only wanted half the. site sa.xhey went through most
of the approval process for platting that. The Minutes say it was going to be divided into two
lots. Somewhere along the line somebody instructed a surveyor to label it Outlot A. And
that's the best that we can, Sharmin and I have gone through—and can't quite figure out what
happened but it was apparently the intent from the dialogue that's recorded that they be two
24
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 r
lots. It simply was split into two lots.
Harberts: He didn't mention how Southwest Metro had control over the old... 1
Vernelle Clayton: Diane and I got to know each other by phone before we met. ,
Harberts: I think I was on board for 2 days. Interesting project...
Vernelle Clayton: So anyhow, that kind of gets to how we got part of the way to where we
'
are. As to why the HRA ... fact that the Bloomberg Companies has a legal interest in the
property and—exercising it's option. Under our proposal for Wendy's as I said will be
owning a parcel and a partnership, pretty much the same partnership as the one for Market
Square will own the Lot 4 and as I said ... As to the proposed development... one of the ways to
control property is to have or influence development on property is to have a PUD. This is
'
not a bad PUD from your perspective... And we have always gotten into the fact that we as a
developer and those folks that drafted the PUD agreement as well as other agreements
anticipated that there would be additional retail development on that site. And let me say
'
there's a need for additional retail. There's a need for traffic ... for Market Square. I don't
mean to imply that there are a lot of people that are close to going out of business. That
things are so tough down there but there are a lot of people that go to bed worried every
'
night I can tell you that. These people are all ahead of the time just a little bit. Everybody
that's moving into Chanhassen is ahead of time. They're positioning themselves because they
want to be here when we are fully developed and when the market catches up with what
'
we're doing here. There are probably a couple people in Market Square that can't wait that
long but it needs the synergy of newer folks out there that generate traffic.. We've spent a lot
of money out there generating traffic—that we have just to get people on site and Wendy's
'
will do a lot of that for us. We don't care particularly ... that they all go to Wendy's and
immediately hop over and ... or drop in at the hardware store but we care that they see it and
they see what's there and they can come back and support it. So, there's a development
'
agreement. There's a PUD. A development agreement. A redevelopment agreement.
There's a repurchase agreement and even restrictive covenants that restrict the height of
buildings... All of those have a lot of little things that limit what we can do and provide you
t
control for what we can do. It was drafted that way so that this project would be consistent
with what already existed in Market Square and we think that the project that we're bringing
in is consistent with those anticipations. As we an '. the presentation there may be
'
references to those. I think that Sharmin has alrc made some reference to various
requirements that set forth for example signage, parking, access ... As to the use of the
property, as I mentioned, it was rezoned PUD and the PUD agreement contains standard
'
language that the standards of the BG, general business district apply to this as if they ... Uses
are of course retail as we mentioned but we have proposed office and among... Getting at '
25
r
.
1
1
FJ
Planning Commission Meeting - February, 10 1994
;.
uses a little more, we screen uses probably as stringently as anyone there because of, although
it might be from a different perspective. We're concerned with respect to the mix of tenants
at Market Square. We have turned down several proposals from folks who want to be in the
area and possibly in the building because a similar use already exists in Market Square. For
example we've had ... uses which under the ordinance would be permitted. I really don't think
you'd like very much and we would not like very much either on the site. We, in deference
to Guy's, although unbeknownst to him, we turned down Taco Bell on the same site that
Wendy's is now going on. Even though his. lease has no provision to that affect. I
understand that he sent you a letter saying a couple things and I'm paraphrasing if you
haven't seen the copy. One of the things he said ... is not true and I trust you understand that
now that you understand... ownership of the parcel became vested in the HRA and then the ... I
need to say also that it is our intent to continue to protect, to protect him and others based on
what they were doing when they moved there—and he didn't ask them about changing his
venue ... that became that grill after we were already...
Farmakes: Excuse me. When you're referring to he, you're referring to Guy's?
Vernelle Clayton: I'm referring to Guy's. And I don't like any of those tenants over there
to be unhappy with what we're doing. I work with them on practically a daily basis. I talked
with Guy about this and he just sort of shrugged his shoulders. Apparently he didn't think I
was in any position of authority to do anything about it so he wasn't going to complain to
me ... with respect to this particular project. Wendy's began discussions with us last March
and one of the specific elements that was important to them was a site plan so we met with
staff and reviewed various alternatives and ... which was recommended by the staff. In the
next few months...and then we prepared some more formal renderings of the site plan and
elevations and presented them to the HRA and the comments with having preliminary
discussion with them ... prior to bringing it to Planning Commission and Council and that was
in late September. September 23rd I believe. We then were ... and so the site plan and
specifically the landscaping plan was used ... Kevin Norby prepared the landscaping plan ... as
well as through the Tree Board. At the same time this was going on, we were finalizing
.elevations and in the case of Wendy's making... elevations based on projections by the HRA.
We presented the—roughly in December. Anticipated Planning Commission public hearing in
January. We all know that the schedules were changed due to the accommodation linked to
the Highway 5 study. We thought... perfect presentation and before I introduce the folks that
are going to come up and make the presentation, because it is less than perfect, it's because
}1 we were trying ... but in any event, I think what we have, it might not be perfect or as perfect
and colorful in quality and visible ... less than ' 24 hours really to get the new site plan attached
to your packet together. He has not spent, that was at 3:45... Since then he's had a chance to
fine tune it a little bit and you'll see a fine tuned version here which incorporates a few
things ... by Friday afternoon. Then on Monday we learned that ... The other thing that Bill had
26
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
to do was ... Sharmin decided that she wouldn't, suggested we add some relief to the front in '
the form of bringing forward the gabled portion a foot and that meant that Bill had to go back
to the drawing board ... Monday morning on the elevations. Now all this time Bill had planned '
to be doing a really nice computer presentation of.-the building and so we're without those
tonight but thankfully we do have the most recent response to the most recent suggestions and
this also left Kevin in a little bit of a lurch since he had only I think today to do the revised '
landscaping... It's my thought that, since you've already seen the site plan, we might then
look at the landscape plan next since you kind of have those around in front of you and then
we'll talk about the buildings. And so, unless you want to see it in a different order. '
Scott: Go ahead.
Vemelle Clayton: I would like to introduce Kevin Norby who I think all of you have met in I
the past and he will make ... Thank you.
Kevin Norby: Again, I apologize for not getting a copy of this to you but I do have copies I
g
can distribute to you. I
Scott: If you want, if you can stick that in front of the podium. For the folks at home.
Kevin Norby: I guess what we've done here, I thought maybe Bill would be going fast and '
have an opportunity to explain what changes were made on the site. Staff suggested that this
area, which was previously shown and I think is on your copy, shown as 6 foot wide and '
suggested that that be widened to 8 feet to accommodate the planting of additional green
space. We've actually widened that to 10 feet feeling that we probably needed that extra 2
feet to insure that those trees would continue to thrive. ,
Harberts: Kevin, can you just kind of give us a point of reference where West 78th Street is?
It's kind of hard. '
Kevin Norby: Yeah, this is West 78th and north. This would be Market here and of course
Festival would be down in here. So this is I guess one of the changes that Sharmin had '
suggested of this being widened to 8 feet. We've widened that to 10 feet and incorporated
some trees in there. Sharmin had actually asked to have 5 trees planted in this median and I
was somewhat concerned about salt tolerance and the amount of traffic that runs through here '
splashing up on the trees so what we've done is provided 3 trees. We've . ' .anged the species
a little bit to provide some additional salt tolerance. We've landscaped the: area with lower
growing, ground cover type material that will take the snow loads and the salt tolerance. '
Mancino: What is that?
27
1
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Kevin Norby: In this case we've used fleece flower, the ground cover. The trees are
hackberry and ash and off to the ends we've got maple and linden where we think there's a
' little more space to accommodate those. We've also got this sidewalk that continues around
the site. Part of it exists. That will be extended across West 78th here and the city currently
has as part of their West 78th Street project 5 trees which are proposed there. We have a
' total of 32 trees shown on the site, 15 of which are required. 15 trees are required as part of
your landscape ordinance. Your parking lot ordinance.
Mancino: That's the minimum.
Kevin Norby: The minimum. We've got 17 shown in the parking lot. We've got another 10
' down there provided as far as buffering, screening. Quite a bit exceeded that in an attempt to
hide things like the trash enclosures, soften the building architecture and so forth. Again the
trash enclosure is located here. Bill will explain why that is there. It was the request from
staff to consolidate the two enclosures and ... will be accessed from both tenants buildings. I
guess in general I'll let Bill cover that sort of stuff but in general what we've done is tried to
soften the architecture. Tried to provide some green space. There will be some berming and
that sort of thing to help break up some of these views along here along West 78th and
Market. And then we've used again extensively ground covers and shrubs for both buffering
and for landscaping around the buildings.
' Mancino: I have a question for you. If I'm over at Country Suites and I want to walk across
the street and go to Wendy's, and I get on the sidewalk on Market, how do I get to Wendy's
in a pedestrian friendly way that I don't go around cars? Is there a pathway?
Kevin Norby: The hotel over here?
Mancino: Yeah.
Kevin Norby: You either walk the sidewalk which will take you to Wendy's ... allow annuals
around the buildings. Around the signs we've got more perennials. It will be both colorful
' and it will provide a lot of canopy cover.
Mancino: Is there the use of brick pavers for sidewalk or are we all cement or have we
' upgraded up to some sort of a brick walkway around the buildings?
Kevin Norby: I haven't been involved in those discussions and I'm not sure it's reached that,
quite that level of detail here but at this point what we're representing is concrete. Maybe I'll
let Bill kind of touch on some of the other changes here.
28
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Vernelle Clayton: ...so do you want to explain more about the site plan?
Bill Brisley: Most of the changes were driven by planning staff which you see there. I'm
sure there's a lot of rationale that they have that I'm not privy to that—but I certainly would
answer any questions on the site plan.
Harberts: Well one of the questions I have is with regard to the trash. And maybe it's just
my not understanding the total use of the other buildings but it would seem to me there's
more traffic generated potentially by Wendy's so why wouldn't the trash be located in the
other parking lot where I would think there would be less traffic to deal with. But then
maybe I'm just.
Bill Brisley: Well here's where Wendy's collects their trash in this area and then directly out
that door. And then a hauler would come in here ... pick up this dumpster.
Harberts: Oh because they generate more trash?
Vernelle Clayton: Right. They generate more and plus we have several experiences in
Market Square where anytime you have large dumpsters, which you want, because you don't
want...The hauler has to head in directly back.
Harberts: They have to back up.
Vernelle Clayton: Right. And up here they'd have trouble...
Harberts: So tell me how a trash hauler would go in there and do a 3 point turn?
Bill Brisley: This is all one way.
Harberts: So tell me how.
John Milga: We arrange the time for trash pick up so it just doesn't come in the middle of
the day or when it's busy and quite easily what happens is the trash backs in this way, pulls
up here and...
Mancino: Are you open 24 hours a day?
John Milga: No we're not. And we wouldn't anticipate trying to be open 24 hours a day.
Harberts: Can you describe that location where they collect the trash. Is that like an
29
t
1
1
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
enclosed room or something?
John Milga: Well first of all we compact our trash before we take it out to the dumpster.
Harberts: And that's done in that little room.
John Milga: Pardon me?
Harberts: That's done in that little room that you pointed out?
John Milga: This one here? This is a cooler and freezer and that's all enclosed. And then
when they would bring out the trash, they would bring it out here.
Harberts: And is that somehow screened? That trash ... or whatever it's called back there?
John Milga: Yes. There's very heavy screening all around the trash, except for this little
sidewalk here where the office people can bring trash in.
Al -Jaff: We're also requesting that there would be berming to create an impression... from
Market Boulevard as well as...
Bill Brisley: What happens is this site steps down ... and so where we take up some of the
changes...
Harberts: That answers my questions.
Vernelle Clayton: I'd like to bring, before we get off the site plan I'd like to bring up one of
the—Council and you should know about it too. These don't exist down here. They live
currently up in here and if you haven't noticed them, please drive out and take a look at
them. They're inconsistent with any kind of building design ... so we're proposing that they be
moved. And one of the reasons we're proposing that they be moved, the screen is
obviously ... and the other is that there's a requirement that there be nothing planted within 10
feet and they're closer than 10 feet to the sidewalk. You can't shield them from the
sidewalk. So we need to address, I don't think you'll find any arguments from anybody that
they're ugly but we might find an argument that ... so we're going to have to work on that. So
I just wanted to explain that and this will be 4� ,to provide screening...
Farmakes: What was your motivation in changing the roof line? What was it originally?
You discussed some of the changes you made to the main structure here.
30
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
Vernelle Clayton: To this one? ,
Farmakes: Yeah. '
Vernelle Clayton: Bill, well we were going to have Wendy's go on next but if you want,
why don't you talk about it. '
Farmakes: That's fine if you want to come back to that. '
Bill Brisley: Yeah, I guess I'm...
Vernelle Clayton: Okay. I think it would be nice if we did allow John Milga to talk a little
'
bit about Wendy's and he and...
John Milga: Well first of all Wendy's is kind of an upscale hamburger chain and most of our
'
customers fit the profile of Chanhassen's population base. Where it's a little more upscale.
A little more office related. People are a little more interested in salad bars. They're good
for your product and we kind of emphasize that. Emphasize the adult seating with the
'
movable chairs and tables. One of the things we have to consider is in trying to develop
here, what they have a plan that our building would match with the Market Square building
'
as well as with the Edina Realty building. So one of the considerations was to try and get a
dormer type roof on top of the building and also to match the brick. Now this artist has
shaded it in kind of a beige but we're going to match the same color as Market Square
'
building which is kind of a grayish color. And at the time we'll use the same materials so
we'll have the same brick materials as Edina as along with matching the colors of the Market
Square building. Now our logo colors are red and you can use this a little bit because we had
'
the rendering done before we had to make some other changes that Vernelle eluded to but
you can see the dormer treatments here ... Gary, you know all the colors a little better than I
do.
,
Gary: Well we're effectively going to compliment the colors of the shopping center. This
dormer treatment ... and add some red striping to compliment to the canopies used in the '
shopping center, which is a burgundy. And brick treatment, as I mentioned being kind of a
grayish ... This is what you call... '
Harberts: Is this a, and I don't know if I'm ... is this like a franchise store or is this like a
corporate store? '
John Milga: This would be a corporate operated store. However that doesn't mean that it
would always be a corporate store. We do have flexibility that we can sell stores to '
31
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
I franchisees and buy franchise stores.
' Harberts: Do you have any Wendy's that do not have drive thru or do all your Wendy's all
over the place have drive thrus?
' John Milga: The only place that we don't have drive thrus is if we're in a downtown area
like in downtown Minneapolis. Or inside of a shopping center mall. Other than that they all
have drive thrus. And the reason for that quite frankly is, about 30% of the business comes
' through a drive thru. Today people do their banking through drive thrus. In fact women are
the primary users of drive thrus because when they drive home and they have little kids, they
don't have to take the kids out of the car, or out of the van today. Bring them in someplace.
Worry about them running around and so they can have them all contained where they can do
their banking and...
' Farmakes: Your elevation drawing is showing burgundy striping on the building and your
sketch drawing is showing a matching red to the sign. What, do you have a sample of what
that would be or do you, any exterior samples?
' Gary: ...on the site?
J
Farmakes: Yes.
Gary: This is just a paint that's painted on. The top of the parapet is treated with ... What we
have shown right now is green ... red and beige.
Farmakes: So when you're referring to red, I'm looking and I'm seeing almost a burgundy
red and in the drawing I'm seeing bright red. What is the color?
Gary: It's red.
Farmakes: The red I see in the Wendy's sign?
Gary: Yeah.
Mancino: ...fire engine red, not burgundy?
Gary: Right. No.
Harberts: I thought I had heard the comment of your corporate logo colors would be.
32
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
Did I
,
Farmakes: I heard the awnings that are currently on the Market Square development.
hear that wrong?
,
Gary: Not a burgundy. It's kind of burgundy red. Sort of...
Farmakes: Well signage reds are color coded. They're specific. The red that you're using in
'
Wendy's I'd say is a 185 red.
Gary: ...Yeah. The signage in the shopping center are red.
Mancino: But I mean it's not going to be a subtle burgundy?
'
G No. Right. No, it's going to be red. And this...
�}'• g g g
Mancino: Where else are their signage up on the mansard or whatever you call that part of
'
the roof? I mean you have a drive up area.
Gary: Right. We have.
'
Mancino: In your other Wendy's you have a fair amount of signage.
'
John Milga: ...original pictures of our "standard building" may give a better idea. You can
see there we usually use a brick similar to the brick that you have in civic center...
'
Scott: And then all your rooftop, your HVAC and all that kind of stuff is going to be
screened? Actually contained underneath so it won't be visible at all.
Gary: Right.
Farmakes: Will the stone and brick that you're using is accented by a rougher stone in the
'
detail work?
'
Gary: Yes...
Farmakes: And this is the bronze metallic that you're referring to? 1
'Nary: Yes.
Harberts: And this site is supposed to have two drive thru windows? Is that right? '
33
II
L�
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
John Milga: Yes. That's the standard—and we are changing our signage. We're not going to
have Wendy's Old Fashion Hamburgers. Wendy's is Wendy's...
Farmakes: Okay, so on some of these other buildings where you see chili and frosty, all this
auxillary signage that you're talking about is restricted then to your...
Mancino: And is it lit, back lit?
Gary: Yes. It's lit. Basically this is one of our, what do you want to call it...
Vernelle Clayton: When you're talking about Wendy's signage ... but each building is allowed
signage on two sides...
Mancino: And that includes the pick up window?
Vemelle Clayton: Right. They might choose to have a sign on the side.
Mancino: But that's then 3.
John Milga: No, we'll have 2 signs and basically the way we go about our signage...
Farmakes: I think you're talking about an auxillary sign for the pick up window here or pick
up here.
John Milga: ...directional sign for example, we'll probably have a sign on this side which...
Farmakes: Sharmin, could I ask you something in regards to the fast food restaurant that has
a drive up and in many of these such as McDonalds and so on and essentially they're a
monument sign onto themselves. How do we treat that issue in relationship to signage
limitations in that PUD? ...we're talking about a limitation of 2 signs, building signs on two
sides. We're talking about auxillary signs. Pick up window here. Typically in a fast food
there's also a drive up collection. I'm assuming you have a drive up type situation where
there's a menu and usually colored pictures and so on.
Mancino: Yeah ... and also signage in the windows. 99 cents huge which is also signage.
Al -Jaffa Currently the ordinance does not allow ... I looked at the McDonalds and we did not
include that as a part of their signage...
Farmakes: I guess my question is, we do have criteria then that regulates the signage and the
34
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
placement for auxillary signage that buildings like these require other than the fact that we do
have restrictions when we're talking about the building signs themselves. For additional
obviously signage, do we have criteria that we use for that? I don't recall that...
Al -Jaff: ...that band then wraps around the building...
Scott: So you're saying if the corporate color is utilized as an accent on the building, which I
remember from the—corporate accent colors count as signage.
Al -Jaff: Convect.
Farmakes: We talked about that fairly extensively—how you determined that. How either
aesthetically or in ordinance you determined what effect it has...
John Milga: For example Super America likes to use a huge America flag to the point it
becomes when you see that on the highway, you know it's a Super America. I don't know of
anyone that counts that as a sign.
Farmakes: Particular fast food franchises, we could argue that at length but obviously Taco
Bell, Amoco, I can list off where the striping is an intricate part of their franchise building.
No question. A part of the signage. It's used to catch the eye. But I've seen it done
tastefully. I think Embers does a pretty good job of tastefully doing it. I've seen it done
pretty garishly.
John Milga: Then on the other hand, you take for example McDonalds has the golden arch.
Just because they use the yellow color, you couldn't say well, we have to use blue arches.
You're causing the corporation then to ... in some cases when you start getting into this, you
start violating other trademarks and...
Farmakes: I think the argument can be made though that red trim on a building is not a
corporate ID. It's not a trademark. The Wendy's logo and the fact that you're using and so
on, that could be...
John Milga: I'll give you an example of one that is a trademark...McDonalds ... lights on the
roof Their roof design with ... lights. That is a trademark by McDonalds...
Farmakes: I think the McDonalds was built many, many years ago. I don't think that would
fly any longer.
Harberts: The question I have is with the stacking of cars as they go through the drive thru...
35
r
F�
i
II
7
�I
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
Do you have a standard procedure where they stack up...
John Milga: Okay first of all there's a by -pass lane to get around the drive thru so if
someone was parked in say this parking space, if they want they could have two options ... or
they could back out and go around the drive thru ... Some companies do not have that but we
provide for a by -pass lane. Stacking wise you know, the reason we have the double window
is to move the cars through faster. They can pay while they're waiting for the pick -up and
then they move on to the pick -up window and ... One takes the order and one takes the ... so the
goals it always to keep ... and you could stack up all the way to here. That was one of the
features your planners came up with and the way we had it set up before didn't really provide
for an emergency that could happen. That wouldn't be an ideal from our perspective to have
a situation like that. But could that happen? Yes, that could happen so we provided for...
Harberts: Have you done that type of design before where there could potentially be stacking
up in that same place...
Scott: Yeah, what's the distance there?
John Milga: I think it's 24 feet.
Scott: Okay, and then cars are typically how long?
Gary: They're typically 20 foot ... A Suburban might be about 20 feet long.
Scott: I'm just thinking if you've got 26 feet across that lot and you have two 15 foot cars
that are supposed to be parked, and maybe you're not measuring the distance this way but I
think if you have a car parked there and you have a car parked there, and your stacked 7 or 8
deep, those people are going pretty much going to be immobilized. I mean if you take the
length of two cars and the width and you don't have that much space in that parking lot...
Gary: ...26 feet but the cars are only say 7 feet wide. That's the width that a car would...
car was standing here, you still have 19 feet for a park to back out...
Mancino: I'm sure you said this before but I can't remember. How does the brick get to be
gray? Is that, do you impregnate the color of the brick ?...
Harberts: Did Public Safety look at the traffic flow?
Al -Jaffa Well it was between ... Dave, and myself. We looked at the flow of the traffic and
we have not studied this specific plan in detail but this was...
KR
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) ,
Farmakes: It's not restricted to that? '
Bill Brisley: No it's not. '
Farmakes: It could be Block Buster Video.
Bill Brisley: Right. '
Harberts: Is there a, if the parking lot at Wendy's gets full, will people have the option of '
parking over in the other side then?
John Milga: Well in fact this parcel, and Vernelle you can help us out on this if you want,
there is parking on this side. This is parking that belongs to this land. However we're not
even counting that as part of our required parking. But there was overflow parking calculated
way back when, when it was thought of this as being retail then. Possibly a in service
restaurant.
Vernelle Clayton: We intend to have cross parking easements. There already are cross I
parking easements in place...
Harberts: Would a pick up, no. Let's start over. Would a Suburban with a 16 or 18 foot
boat be able to go through that? I mean realistically.
John Milga: But the question you raise is the same you have to ask in a bank. If someone '
were imprudent enough to come with a Suburban and a big boat, and that could happen in
this area. Someone could be that imprudent to do that, do go into a bank, they're going to
tear up everything on it just like the church. They did the same thing. If they pull in there.
Harberts: So I take it the answer is no.
John Y Y probably Milga: No. Probably wouldn't. The robabl could get through here because it's
g
wide enough but. ,
Gary: If there were no cars.
John Milga: Because with 22 feet, it would work but you know...
Harberts: Well we have Lotus Lake right there. We have a lot of traffic on 78th Street and I
37
� *1
' Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
think it's very conceivable and unless this person is smart enough to park their vehicle
outside of that area, I'm just wondering what kind of traffic tie up you could have in there,
' into the stacking, things like that.
Farmakes: Is the street lighting for Market H going to match Market I?
' John Milga: Yes, it is the same street lighting.
' Al -Jaffa We did discuss this at a meeting with the applicant and we suggested that they use
the same ornamental lighting that exists at Market Square right now, and we're hoping with
their next submittal that that shows on there.
Farmakes: And that will be part of any lighting situation within the lot also?
Al -Jaff: Correct.
Harberts: I'd like to just reinforce Nancy's comment earlier about seeing the colors and the
materials at the next meeting.
Mancino: And signage and where any accessory signage will be.
Al -Jaff: Do you want them to bring in examples? I mean actual pieces.
Mancino: Yes.
Conrad: Staff report took out sidewalks. I'm curious why we did that.
Hempel: Actually the site plan showed taking out the sidewalk with the grading of the site
and did not propose putting it back and that was one of the recommendations staff has, to
make sure that sidewalk on Market Boulevard is put back in place. And in fact the West
78th Street sidewalk.
Vemelle Clayton: If it said that, it was a mistake. It was never intended that we take out the
sidewalk...
Bill Brisley: We're not taking out any sidewalks. They're adding, or the city will be adding
the sidewalks...
Hempel: Let me clarify for the record as far as the city is going to be extending the sidewalk
along West 78th Street only. Nothing along Market Square or Market Boulevard. There's a
38
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
small segment of the sidewalk that was left out of the original Market Square development. '
We're waiting for the city to put the turn lane in and move the electrical boxes that were on
the corner. We've moved them back for a second time now. The location is far enough back '
to facilitate the extension of that sidewalk and development of the parcel.
Conrad: One thing that we hear on this Vision 2002 is, it's always interesting what people '
focus on and we're trying to figure out what we look like in 10 years or 5, or something like
that. We talked about pedestrian traffic and. although if Brad were here he'd be telling us
how the car moves us around, which is true. But on the other hand, the people that are '
looking at the city are real concerned with pedestrian traffic. Staff, you did not want the
connection, as originally in our plans, made to these sidewalks on West 78th and Market Blvd
based on the staff report saying eliminate them. Is that correct? '
Al -Jaff: No. Actually... '
Bill Brisley: The sidewalk comes here.
Conrad: I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the connectivity between the Edina
and the sidewalks that I perceive to be coming from the sides going out to the, right there.
Yeah. Now my understanding was staff said these pedestrian ramps should be eliminated.
Bill Brisley: Those were ones going across the street.
Hempel: Right. If I could clarify. There were previous on the landscape plan showing two
pedestrian crossings or access points out to West 78th Street and Market in this location and
another one out here to promote crossing mid block and ... We did request that they give us
some continuity between the sidewalk on Market and Edina Realty and Wendy's.
Conrad: Okay. Then I understand. And we're going to look at connecting Wendy's to that
same Market Blvd sidewalk, right?
Al -Jaff: Yes. 1
Conrad: I'm really interested in connecting everything together. This is a PUD you know
and I think that's what everybody has to really refocus on. This is not just a subdivision or a ,
site plan. It's really fitting everything together. I'm concerned with sidew . and accesses
to get a, I think the parking lot at Market Square has been a bone of concern for a long time.
I hope we're taking that opportunity. I'm not going to get into the business of being an
engineer but I really hope we're taking the opportunity to make sure that this thing all fits
together, and I'm not smart enough to critique it right now but I trust staff will do that. I
39
II
u
I
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
also trust staff will do that in terms of the sidewalks. Even though this little group that's
trying to figure out what we look like in 2002 has not come to conclusions yet, there's sure
some solid indication of what they're looking for and that should be wrapped into this. We
' shouldn't have to wait for this document to come forth. I think there's some clear directions
on that and this impacts it a little bit. So again, I just really hope between now and then that
staff has thought of those issues and making sure this all fits.
John Malga: Any other questions in regards to Wendy's?
Al -Jaffa I just wanted to add something in regards to the sidewalks. It's true as
Commissioner Conrad states that one of the main concerns of the 2002 Vision commission
was to connect the sidewalks and we did look at this site and what we had suggested was that
the sidewalks. This is where Edina Realty is. The sidewalk would continue along West 78th
but at the same time go along the interior and then go to the west until it reaches Subway.
The sidewalk that's right in front of Subway and I think that would complete that sidewalk
connection.
Mancino: But you still can't get to Wendy's on a sidewalk. I mean it's not pedestrian
friendly.
' Al -Jaffa Correct.
Mancino: You cannot get from a sidewalk to Wendy's without going through a parking lot
and I'm thinking small kids. I'm thinking bikes and all sorts of things. So it doesn't meet
those pedestrian friendly requirements.
Scott: Well another comment too with the Vision 2002 that's very obvious in the statement
that we all received is one of a civic center and obviously we have a civic center beginning
with City Hall. Potential City Hall expansion. Library relocation. Post Office. City Center
' Park and so forth and perhaps in this particular area, because the ownership, at least at this
point in time seems to rest with the HRA, you know they also put some interesting
' opportunities there to further enhance our civic center. So I had the opportunity to go to a
couple of the meetings. I know Nancy's probably, I think Nancy and Jeff went.
Mancino: In fact I just,got a mailing from the last meeting and I would urge everybody to
attend on the Planning Commission and one of the things that we're looking at as an ad hoc
' committee for 2002 is making this area, the city center, and I mean it was even brought up
maybe in this particular site is a public library. That may work out. I mean obviously the
committee has not come to any conclusions or recommendations but they are in the middle of
1
40
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
doing this. So it might be wise to listen to those much like the Highway 5 task force. To
wait until the Vision 2002 committee gets done and makes recommendations to the Planning
Commission and City Council because they're going to take the whole central business '
district as a whole and look at it and do some site analysis.
Scott: And also too to say, here's something that's on the table for this particular site. I
Mancino: Well there are lots of citizens involved. There are professionals involved and I
think that the HRA is the one that's funding Hoisington to facilitate all this. So it's a very '
real thing that's going on right now and it's addressing a central business district as a whole.
Scott: And I think we've got a very strong tradition of taking our ad hoc committees, citizen '
committees extremely seriously. But then again what we have to do, what I've seen too as
when there's an ordinance in the works, we always have worked with our applicants to say,
it's not here today. We don't know precisely what it's going to be but these are the things '
we can count on for sure and guide them that way. Any other, anybody else from the
audience wish to speak on this particular issue? '
Vernelle Clayton: Did you want to see the elevations?
Bill Brisley: Do you want to see something about the other building? '
Farmakes: Yes. '
Harberts: But we're done with Wendy's at this point right?
Scott: Yes. Okay, let's move on to Edina Realty. '
Harberts: Well it's coming back on March 2nd? I
Scott: Oh yeah. We're not going to be making any recommendations this evening anyway.
Bill Brisley: ...I'm an architect employed Amcon Corporation... and specifically tonight for
the proposed development by ... I was charged by the developer to create a modular, highly
flexible and—rental space to accommodate different combinations of retail and office service
businesses over the useable life of this building. Lease terms are relatively short in this
market, 3 to 5 years so the design of the building must accommodate frequent changes as
they inevitably occur. At the same time ... aesthetic influences in the context of this downtown '
area, my mission was also to create an architectural link between the shopping center, of
which this lot is a visible and legal relative, and an emerging Chanhassen city image defined
41
Lj
r
i
I I
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
by the new project such as the Country Suites, Medical complex, the apartment building
behind that, the bank across from Festival Foods, Brooks, and the older traditional landmarks
such as the steeple church and some of the main street homes further east. The PUD
agreement governing this lot also stated that the building should be compatible with the
Market Square shopping center which, from a massing point of view, was a combination of
gable and flat roof systems. What has emerged as a result of these ingredients is a small
Chanhassen compatible building with a moderately high pitch, being 8 1/2 to 12. 8 1/2 to 12
pitch hip roof or main roof with 6:12 12 gabled gables punctuating that roof for visual relief
and aesthetic interest. The shingles are asphalt type and as used on most of the buildings or
pitched roofs in downtown Chanhassen and are to be a green color to match the green used in
the shopping center coping metal. Samples of the actual shingles will be submitted to staff at
the time of construction to verify compliance with expectations of this concept. The gabled
dormers... adjacent shopping center details. The gray lapped siding, white with trim around
the windows and dark gray rock face foundation block sills under the windows came directly
from the ... and are specified to match the materials and colors of Market Square directly.
Square punched, four pane horizontal and vertical... windows on all four sides of the building
help to create a shop like vernacular as opposed to the typical linear store front kind ... of most
commercial strip shopping centers ... On Monday of this week Chanhassen staff requested that
the longitude in the walls be further broken for visual relief and the aesthetic interest by
offsetting them outward 2 feet is actually what we came up with. Not one. The corregation
with the gables. This effect is apparent in the enclosed computer model of the building. If
the Planning Commission's reaction is positive to this, I will be rendering a larger version of
these pictures with trees, people and cars for the subsequent meeting. Can I answer any
questions?
Scott: Any questions or comments?
Farmakes: What is the darker gray on the illustration that you passed out is the masonry?
Bill Brisley: That's the rock faced masonry.
' Farmakes: And the lighter gray is the clapboard?
Bill Brisley: The clapboard and the white verticals are the 6 inch trim that goes around all
' the windows.
Mancino: Windows are all the same size?
Bill Brisley: They're the same size.
Farmakes: If we were looking at this building then in it's true form, on two sides of the
42
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
building en would be the sin runners as per tenant correct? ,
g g P ,
Bill Brisley: Right. '
Farmakes: In the smaller area between the roof and the windows? '
Bill Brisley: Right. That might be Edina Realty ... Right now we're looking at about three
tenants. ,
Harberts: For the whole building?
Farmakes: In your revised perspective detail, this would be on both the north and the south ,
part of the building that we would be looking at or would it also be on the east and west
section? '
Bill Brisley: The signage you're talking about?
Farmakes: Where it comes out a couple of feet? '
Bill Brisley: No, no. On the end it cannot do that because we don't have that kind of slope. 1
Farmakes: Okay. So this would be on the north and south end of the building?
Bill Brisley: North and south. More of the gables... Actually the gables themselves could ,
protrude on the end. It's just that the wall can't go out because we're tight against the
setbacks. '
Farmakes: When the PUD from '89, was the overall covenant that was in place for
downtown development, where the ... line, I think it was consistent or ... There's a line where the '
development has to be, I'm forgetting the catch word that's used.
Al -Jaff: Compatible? ,
Farmakes: Compatible, yeah. Is that it? Besides this PUD, isn't there also an overall '
downtown development ordinance that also uses that word?
Al -Jaff: Yes. And it's basically downtown architecture is what it uses. '
Farmakes: Okay, but in the terms then of Market I and the PUD out of '89 for Market I,
ignoring the overall ordinance for downtown, compatible would be same as then as Market I, '
43
1
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
right?
Al -Jaff: Yes.
1
1
L
1
Farmakes: Okay. So the intent here was to replicate some shape or form of Market I? To a
certain extent you're nodding your head. Was that as part of the assignment?
Bill Brisley: That, was I intending to do that? No I wasn't. I was trying to pull parts.
Ingredients as I described from Market I and downtown. Market I details are kind of difficult
to put on a very small building. Market I, a lot of the expression on Market I came from the
fact that they are very large squares. Large boxes. And flat roofs. It would be easy to do if
it were a flat roof, just pitch up ... entryway but.
Farmakes: In '89 was the interpretation of that line, that the building should be of a like
quality within a development or that they physically should represent one another.
Al -Jaff: We wanted architectural elements that were similar to the overall PUD agreement.
The standards that were set for Market Square.
Farmakes: Okay, so similar in detailing. Similar in not just cost per square foot but similar
in, it looks like an extension of the building in other words?
Al -Jaff: Yes. It looks like an extension. It doesn't have to be a duplicate of the existing
building but would have to have some similarities.
Mancino: Then you're just talking about compatibility.
Al -Jaffa Yes.
Mancino: So you're talking about compatibility. It doesn't have to be similar in the
materials you use or anything but it has to be compatible with what's in Market Square I?
Okay. So we could go to full brick here and not clapboard or etc? I mean we have some
versatility?
Al -Jaff: Yes, you do.
Mancino: Okay.
Vernelle Clayton: Do you want the language? "Designed with proper building materials so
as to be architecturally compatible with the shopping center."
UJI
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
Mancino: So we get compatibility. I
Richard Wing: What was the date on that? ,
Vernelle Clayton: All of these documents were executed on February 28, 1992.
Farmakes: Now is that the ordinance for downtown that you just read or is that for Market, '
the PUD for Market Square?
Al -Jaff: This is Market Square. '
Farmakes: Okay. Why is that dated '92 and not '89? ,
Al -Jaff: That's when those documents were recorded at Carver County. ,
Farmakes: Oh I see. So the ordinance was recorded at that point, okay.
Scott: Any other questions or comments? Okay. Would anybody else like to speak about '
the Edina Realty portion? Okay, thank you very much. Yes sir.
Richard Wing: Can I just make? '
Scott: If we can hear you. I want to make sure we get you as part of the public record. I
Richard Wing: Richard Wing, 3481 Shore Drive, Chanhassen. The only thing I wanted to
just comment on, as I listen to the last couple of seconds of this was tying this into the '
existing Market Square. And I remember vividly, not only here but at the Council and
particularly HRA, that Market Square caught some real heated demand and we had just
started to move into the thinking of the 90's and new development standards and new quality ,
standards and HRA took some heat for just simply running this thing through. There was I
think some talk at the very beginning of scrubbing it because let's not make a mistake. And
in fact Market Square was built and some of the design standards such as the little parapets '
and so on were added at the last, the last second as a knee jerk reaction to try and get this
thing through and the developers were concerned about dollars and we couldn't redesign it
but yet we knew we really wanted to redesign it. I remember distinctly those discussions
Towards the very end and it went in but the thinking of the 90's started to take over
and that's been well represented by what's occurring in the city now and our standards are
increasing dramatically and we're not even close to being finished yet. We should have '
ordinances on line where we don't even have to discuss these issues. They're just so
demanding that as people come into Chanhassen, in this growing market, they're pretty clear
45
t
1
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
cut. Like Highway 5's going to demand glass, brick or better. So I'm very concerned that
there's discussion of trying to tie this into what I believe, and I think we documented it, was
thought to be a mistake. The old school. The old thinking. It's colors. It's architectural
style. It's roof lines, etc. To tie these buildings into that existing Market Square to me is
another mistake that I don't think we need to make so I guess I hope you can start to discuss
this as a separate entity that has quality and architectural standards and design that far exceed
what's there at Market Square now. I don't want more buildings that look like that and I'm
going to be very sensitive to those issues. So I think we're on the wrong track design wise
for that corner and it's premiere position. But just the history I think on the record with, I
think I'll hold my comments. I hope I'm not, I may be talking off the record but nonetheless
from the heart and to the best of my judgment that those comments were pretty prominent at
that time. But I think on the record, I think everybody involved said, well if we could just do
this again or if it wasn't so far along ... and put a little different coloring on it. A little
different architecture and protect it from the highway a little bit more. Bill Morrish kind of
came in and went ooh. Just what we're trying to get away from you're doing, but it was
done. So let's not do it again.
Farmakes: What I was trying to determine here Dick is what commitments the City made in
'89 to this particular PUD development as an outlot or extension before we critique what's
before us here. As I understand it, the city owns the property and there's a contractual
purchase agreement of some sort.
Richard Wing: To the best of my ability, from what I've been able to learn, I think there's
some knowledge that there was considerable concern at the end of the last Council meeting.
And basically what's going on and who's driving and who made these decisions and where
are we going and this is our pivotable corner. I tried to get that out 5 times ... had to spell it.
Pivotable corner. Premiere corner. Extremely sensitive corner. City Hall. City Park. Well,
you spelled them all out. So you're talking colors and parking lots and whether a boat trailer
will fit in there. We're talking land use ... who owns it. What's going on and where do we
want to go with it. And I think those will be real significant issues coming up on the 28th at
the City Council and probably part of the planning, a separate plan meeting to discuss these
issues. So am I for or against, I wouldn't address that other than there's some very sensitive
issues here and it's kind of an all or nothing situation. Either we let this go and develop the
way it is, or we buy it for public use. I guess as far as, to answer your question Jeff. To my
knowledge right now, we have an option. They have an option or they have a purchase -
agreement to buy for a private use. If they can find a private use for that land, they have first
option, first order to purchase that property. However, if the city should elect to take it for
public purpose, non - defined public purpose, we then would have to come up with another
$1.00 a square foot and buy it back, which I believe we have the option to do. There's a
major escape clause there for the city to take it for public use.
46
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
Farmakes: Some of these issues, I'm sure you may know, are covered in some of the work '
that was done for Highway 5. How they interplay with this particular application I think is
pretty significant and I'm fairly comfortable that my questions have been answered with
regards to what was committed in '89 versus now. Although you may take that up in more
detail with the Council.
Richard Wing: Another option you have is to buy the property so that it's all or, we win. ,
You know we want it all and then say we have a little higher standards than we thought.
We're willing to renegotiate this and we own the land now. Very valuable land—for '
something better or more significant. I guess before I'm willing to get excited here about this
issue one way or the other, I really want to know for sure who owns it, where it's going and
are there options and what are the land use, the best land uses there. I'm not real impressed '
with what's being offered considering the importance of that comer and the value of that
corner. I'm not real impressed with the quality of the buildings, the design of the buildings,
and I guess the other issue that came up at Council is fast food locations. We've discussed it. '
We've been worried about it. We just got done with the automotive issues. So there's a lot
of wheels turning here and it's really unfortunate. I think that these people certainly have '
some rights ... I don't want to see this tied into what I feel is sort of a haphazard occurrence
that occured in the 70's and 80's when we got Market. I don't like...
Vemelle Clayton: I need to respond to a couple things because he has stated he doesn't like '
gray. I mean I can say I don't like brown but at this point here ... when it gets to the Council
it makes a difference... We get a lot of comments, very favorable comments of what Market '
Square looks like so while there was ... example the back side in terms of how that might look
and we added extra trees to hide it, we made some accommodations to the city and the lot
and so forth which everyone, including in the city would know ... but we've gotten a lot of '
very favorable comments on how Market Square looks. And a lot of people really like the
gray. The other thing is, I think before we start using the argument that we can do this with
the property, meaning the city, or not, you must get clarification from the attorney because '
it's very clear in the documents. It specifically says, if the HRA gets a third party offer. In
other words, you decided to put something else on the property—Bloomberg can match it So
it isn't, you can't just say hey, we're going to change our minds here and tell these people '
they can't do what they want to do with their property. It's not that simple. The other thing
is, you do have to be careful these days that ... do constitute takings and so you need to be
thinking about that and you don't, because you don't make that decision. I had a third point. ,
Oh, the other thing is is f`o I guess I find it a little offensive to say that we had knee jerk
reactions. I wasn't directly involved in the architecture. Bill was and he was just shaking his
head back there that the parapets that we added were not added at the last minute and were ,
not knee jerk reactions and they were part of what people seemed to like about Market
Square. The other thing, and then I won't say any more, is that Paul mentioned to you earlier
47
t
L
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
with respect to the use of the property and the architecture ... were governed by the PUD is a
contract. You have a contract with us and we have a contract with you and that contract says
that these buildings will be compatible. So we have to try to do the best we can under the
circumstances and we, I think demonstrated that we're willing to make changes and that sort
of thing. All and all, it all comes down to what the public can bear. If you add things that
end up costing thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to the building, either it won't
be built or it will be built and tenants will come there ... and they'll have to pass onto, it's
not... economics but it's very real. If a building costs more, the rents are higher and the ... We
all want something nice here but we also want it to be ... impact on Market Square. A library
just doesn't cut it. You can say for example, you can look, if you don't believe me, that it
doesn't bring the traffic that it needs. Or frankly ... I don't think the city, people in
Chanhassen are very excited about coming to a city park- that is no activity. If you wanted a
park without activity, you go to the country. If you go to a city park, you want activity. You
want people. You want lights. You want action. That's what we're trying to provide, not
only for the whole synergy of the downtown but also for Market Square ... but we think this
can be done well. We'd like to work with you and cooperate with you. Oh I know the point
I lost. That I share the ... library. It doesn't bring traffic. It's quiet, somber and the proof of
the putting is, look at the State ordinance and look at the parking requirements. The ones with
the most traffic have the most stringent requirements ... I car for every 50 square feet. Retail
is 1 for every 200. Office is 1 for every 250. I can't remember library but it's less than all
of those. So that kind of makes that point. We need to have a viable downtown and just
because... we'd like a library on our most important corner doesn't mean that that's what the
city should ... Well I've worn out my welcome so.
Scott: Why don't we in the next 10 minutes maybe give general comments for the applicant
and then we continue this public hearing. Then we can go from there but at least give them
some formal feedback. Who'd like to start? Well I can. In my mind, as I mentioned before,
I think I'll just quickly summarize some of my thoughts. In my mind, having gone through
the Highway 5 task force, I felt that was city non - government at it's best where you have a
group of non - elected, non - appointed people in an ad hoc type situation, take an extremely
weighty task and coming up with some very viable and well rounded standards that quite
frankly, as a Planning Commission we passed on to City Council with a few minor changes
but nothing major. I think we have a similar situation with our Vision 2000 and I think it's
important because of there's the viability of the downtown. There's the view of it, and we all
understand what Vision 2000, or at least those of us who are in the city and have been
involved with the process. That's something that I personally take very seriously and paying
close attention to that -over the next 3 weeks because obviously we're going to see this again
so. I have questions about the property and what it should be used for. I would also want to
go on record personally, and if any of the other commissioners would like to second this, is
that if the, if indeed the HRA does own this property, which I believe they do, that we would,
48
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
I would ersonall be very upset if it changed hands within the next 30 days. And that's my '
P Y P g
personal opinion. Anyway, next.
Harberts: Are ou insinuating that if there's elected officials on the HRA that the may not '
Y g Y Y
want to consider running again?
Scott: No. I have nothing to do with that. I'm just saying that because of the sensitivity of
this particular property and the ownership position that the city has in it right now, that I'd be '
very upset if it changed hands.
Farmakes: I'll make a couple of comments. The reason I was again asking questions in ,
regards to ownership of this property. Whether or not HRA was making a commitment to it.
The city's been a partner, maybe not in the legal sense but. I shouldn't say partner. I should
say catalyst would be maybe the correct word to this development from it's inception. As '
one of the applicants said, the city in a way took the place of a bank getting this thing off the
ground, as a development. Market one. And obviously there are some self interests to
redevelopment of downtown at that time. Trying to bring Chanhassen into some form of '
viable downtown. In doing that I guess obviously the city becomes a direction or force
within that. It seems that at times when necessary, the city's a welcome partner and at other
times, they seem to be accused of interfering. I don't think they're interfering with this '
situation. I think that this junction that we have here is the pivotable area in the city. If the
city makes an investment to pilatzo or city square or whatever this is in the back yard here of
the City Hall area. It's obviously going to be a gathering place. A center to gather for ,
whatever city functions we have here. The property that we're talking about, as far as the
office building will be adjacent to that. When I saw the Byerly's development that came in
here, and I looked at the square foot type of development that was proposed there. I had to
say that I had hoped that that would be the type of quality building that we would see
adjacent to that property. Something with stone and something that followed along the lines
of what we had been working on the Highway 5 task force with architectural requirements '
and that would be part of that ordinance. I find this particular building lacking in that. I find
these gables way disproportionate to the shape of the building. I can see, it seems as if it's
again thrown out as a problem to a solution perhaps in negotiations talking about the function '
of the building. If I take the dormers away, coincidentally enough, it looks very similar to
the church that was proposed for the industrial building. Or industrial zone. Obviously per
square foot cost is the way you start out a retail building and the problem I've always had '
with what we do is our office buildings are quasi re buildings. There's not much of a
difference between the two. It could be a doctor's office and it could be a video, it seems to '
me as an issue of planning that that's very convenient for the developer but it's not very
convenient to plan a city and it seems to me we plan a city beyond 3 to 5 years that was gust
mentioned for the expectation of a retail tenant. We have to plan for beyond that and '
49
1
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
although I think that it's true, what we add to these buildings by demanding these things is
going to cost money. In the end in any business, that expense is returned to the consumer.
That's true. I feel that in the end that's a good investment. It's an investment in our
community here. I don't think that having basically an extension of the strip mall adjacent to
that corner is what we should do there and I'd recommend that the city not pursue that and
that they pursue a quality building on that corner. And if that means 5 years from now, that
means 5 years from now. In going over to the Wendy's building, actually I have to say I was
more impressed with the Wendy's building than I was with the office building, which is a
surprise that I saw a fast food building that impressed me more than the office building
adjacent to it. There are a couple of things that I would make comments on in that building.
The red striping I think is inappropriate and is not compatible with the surrounding
development as far as accentuating the architecture with it. Right attractive. I understand the
reason for it. In a competitive situation where you were surrounded by 12 other fast food
franchises, as they are in the Prairie mall over in, down the street here. You've obviously in
a different competition for sight from the streets and from potential consumers. You don't
have that problem here. You've got no competition. You've got cars that are going by at 25
mph and they have stop lights in front of you, or by your operation or where it's proposed. It
would seem to me very sad for us to get into a fast food franchise here that would pursue
bright garish colors as part of the architecture. It would seem to me to be incompatible. I
know as a citizen I wouldn't want to see that in our downtown. Now there may be issues of
legality here of the gray area between what is signage and what is architectural taste. Again,
the Highway 5 ordinance deals with some of that as an ordinance in defining the difference
between them. The actual signage package that you're proposing, it seems to me to be fine.
It's a moderate package is what we're looking for here. We're not trying to exclude
businesses from having packaging for signage. But we want a moderate proposal. We think
that's sufficient. If everybody has a moderate proposal, we think that you'll be seen.
Nobody's going by at 50 mph through here. Your position is too far away from the highway
to have a reasonable expectation that that brightness is going to be seen from the highway a
couple blocks away. So I certainly think, if you relooked at that, either as carrying the green
to the trim from the gabled or from the pitched roof, or picking up burgundy or something
from the Market Square development on it, that would be far more palatable to me. I like the
use of your stone and that looks quite good. So I'm trying to be constructive here with this
plan. I'm not sure that that's the location for a fast food development, although I am not sure
also, and the Council may want to look at this, of the viability. That if it's not a small
business, what small free standing business outside of that lot is going to be viable. If an
office building goes in there, is it going to take up the entire lot versus the split and I'm not
sure that that's a feasible market situation. But the city being the owner, they may want to
decide whether they want to put their money where their mouth is. I'm trying to come up
with something constructive to the office building here. I can't. I think it's, originally the
Americana Bank building was proposed for that area. I thought it looked like a prison. I
50
I
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
think this looks like the guard barracks, and I'm not trying to be facetious but I think the '
same things are in place. It's not trying to be anything more than what it is. It's trying to be
a retail extension that could be used as office and that's what we've got here. We've got a
square foot cost for a strip mall extension. And I think that that's not what that site calls for.
That's it.
Scott: Okay. Ladd. '
Conrad: Just two comments. One, I think the area does need, or Market Square needs more '
additional support in terms of retail or office. I think that just creates, I think that's important
for this area. And the other thing is, I just want to make sure we handle this like a PUD.
And I made those comments already. I want to make sure we're connected. I want to make '
sure staff has really thought out all the problems that we've heard of over there in terms of
traffic, and I assume they have but I just need that sense that we're solving problems. Not
creating more problems. That's all. '
Harberts: Well I would basically concur with the comments of Jeff and Ladd and I have to
agree too with regard to, I think I'm hearing there needs to be some kind of traffic generator.
'
I'm having a real hard time though seeing the, I like Wendy's but I'm dust, I'm dust not very
comfortable that it fits in what's being proposed with this and it's just the whole traffic
circulation and I think I would encourage staff also to the pedestrian elements here. That
'
came through loud and clear with the citizen input. But I'm just uncomfortable from that
traffic flow so I'm not very content that it's, maybe it's too much with what's being done. I
have to agree with Ladd that I think there needs to be another traffic generator there and it's
'
going to certainly enhance the mall but I'll just leave my comments at that for now.
'
Mancino: And I don't have too many new ones. I just want to say again how much I 100%
support, I mean I don't know what needs to really go at this corner. I mean I can't tell you
whether a Wendy's or an office building does. I do know that I do support what the Vision
t
2002 is doing and I would like to keep them focused on looking at the downtown as a whole
and getting back to us with their recommendations and that is from the citizens that are on
there, from professionals that are on there and I just know how important it was for me, what
'
I learned on the Highway 5 task force, and it's a lot of people putting in valuable time and
it's not citizens just listening to professionals. It's them asking the good what if questions
and saying what they want to see in their downtown and having some input. And if we cut it
'
off now, it's kind of like you know, here you've got me on this committee. .: giving all
my volunteer time and yet you're going to go ahead and just continue developing the
downtown. Can't you wait for us to get done and make recommendations and whatever those
'
recommendations are. I don't know what they're going to be but at least it gives us, the
Planning Commission, which we are supposed to do is planning and we can look over their
51
J
1
t
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994
I recommendations and then go further. So I would, I'm just 100% in support of that.
' Farmakes: I forgot to mention one thing in my comment. I want to make a constructive
criticism on the office building and I forgot to do that. Burnet Realty is building a free
standing building on Highway 5. The quality of that building stands out greatly from those
' around it. I think that the buildings around it are very typical of strip mall type buildings. I
think that the Burnet Realty building that they're building there is not and that's my example
of, you know it's kind of quasi Georgian, classic design. Nice materials. When you look at
that building, it stands out. I think that that's what we're looking for here. That's what I
think belongs there.
1
1
Scott: This item will be continued at our next meeting.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Scott: Can I have a motion to approve the Minutes of the last meeting?
Mancino: So moved.
Scott: Can I have a, second please?
Harberts: Second.
Farmakes: I have Minutes of the old meeting. I do have a correction. They had me saying
it cost $18.00 to house an institutionalized ... situation. It should be $18,000.00.
Scott: That was $18.00 a minute.
Farmakes: That's on page, I don't have pages numbered. If you could amend that from
$18.00 to $18,000.00.
Scott: So noted.
Mancino moved, Harberts seconded to approve the Minutes of the Planning Commission
meeting dated February 2, 1994 as amended by Jeff Farmakes. All voted in favor and
the motion carried.
Scott: Excuse me Shannin, do we have a City Council update? Councilman Wing gave us a
bit of an update but I understand that we have a new commissioner, Ron Nutting. I did speak
with him last night and invited him to come to our. Yeah, he was the fellow with the finance
background and who had some, actually worked for Trammel Crow for a number of years
52
r
Planning Commission Meeting - February 16, 1994 1
and so forth. So I called him. I talked to him yesterday and invited him to the next meeting
and we're going to get together with him, me or whoever and go over the night's packet and
try to break him in a little bit more. But anyway. Any other items from the last City 1
Council meeting that we need to know about? Okay.
Al -Jaff: Other than the one ... and that would be in regards to the joint meeting between the
'
Planning Commission and City Council.
Scott: Okay, when's that?
t
Al -Jaff: The City Council wishes to have a joint meeting sometime during the month of
April and it would be before your regular Planning Commission meeting. It would start at
'
5:30. You have a choice of either April 6th or April 20th.
Scott: Okay. Is that my choice? Well, we'll see who's paying attention. I'll say the 20th
'
and hearing no objections. Does that sound good for you?
Harberts: Do we have a Planning Commission that night?
'
Scott: Yeah. I don't mind doing that. Okay, good. Any ongoing items? No.
Administrative approvals. Anything you'd like us to talk about. I think we've had our open
discussion. Commissioner Harberts, may I have a motion to adjourn.
Harberts moved, Conrad seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the
,
motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:10 p.m.
Submitted by Paul Krauss
Planning Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
0
53