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1b Park Rules Sign Design ¸:% CITYOF C HASSEN 690 Cio, Center Drive PO Box 147 Minnesota 55317 Phone 952.937.1900 General Fax 952.937.5739 Department Fax 952.937.9152 Building Department Fax 952.934.2524 Web Site wwm. ci. chanhassen, mn. us MEMORANDUM TO: FROM: DATE: SUB J: Todd Gerhardt, Acting City Manager · Todd Hoffman, Director of Parks and Recreation July 5, 2001 t.~(~.. ~-~"..~ Approve Park Rules Sign Design, Layout, and Color In March of 2000, a conversation was initiated between Sergeant Dave Potts and myself concerning the City's park rules signs. The primary concern was that the "existing" signs have white lettering on a brown background. Deputies working the overnight shift find people in the parks who claim they did not notice the park rules sign. The deputies agreed that the signs were difficult to see after dark. This issue, coupled with the fact that our existing signs were printed approximately 8 years ago led me to pursue the purchase and installation of new park rules signs. In May and June of 2001, the Park and Recreation Commission finalized their recommendation for a new park rules sign design, layout, and color. All three options considered are included as attachments ~to this memorandum. The final design would list 10 rules using green lettering on a white background. The exception is the park hours, which are reversed for emphasis. The signs would be reflectorized, with 180 being ordered at an approximate cost of $3,915. The 2001 CIP includes $4,000 for this project. RECOMMENDATION On Tuesday, June 26th, the Park and Recreation Commission recommended the City Council authorize the purchase of 180 new park rules signs. These signs shall read as shown on the attached diagram. All voted in favor and the motion passed unanimously. Approximately 100 of the signs would be posted immediately, replacing the existing signs. The remaining signs would be stocked in inventory. G:kpark\th~ApproveParkRulesSigns2001 Cit~ of Chanhassen. A o'owh~e conmmn&, with clean lakes, aualit¥ schools, a charmin¢ downtown, thrivinv businesses, and heautihd ~arks. A ~'eat n/ace to live, work. and nlm: CITY OF (3HANHASSEN' PARK RI:LES No Person or Vehicle Allowed in Park After Hours No Parking on Grass Vehicles Prohibited from Off-Road Tr'avel'' I . Alcohol Restricted to Canned Malt Beverages- No Glass Containers Leashed Pets Allowed Only On Trails Pet Clean-Up Ordinance Enforced Snowmobiles Prohibited Littering La~vs EnforCed ,I OPTION B Approve Change REVIEW CAREFULLY! Please sign and fax back with approval by.~ Color [~ ~'-'~ Approved by: Size ~ ~ This drawing is the property of Sign Source, Inc. and may not be used, reprodu~d'or disclosed without written authorization. ~~~URCE CONTACI~ PROJECT: RLE NAME: chan-ruLscv DRAWN B~ f. douglass ext 204 DATE: 7/2101 REV: SCALE: Not to Scale 14530 Martin Drive Eden Prairie, MN 55344 {612) 975-4940 (fax) 975-9209 City Of Chanhassen Park Rules Park Hours 6:00 a.n~ - 10:00 p.m. No Person Or Vehicle Allowed In Park After Hours Vehicles Prohibited From Off-Road Travel Or Parking Alcohol Restricted To Canned Beer No Glass Containers Leashed Pets Allowed Only On Trails Pet Clean-Up Ordinance Enforced Snowmobiles Prohibited Littering Laws Enforced Note: Color examples will be available at Tuesday night's meeting. G:3~ark~th~Park Rules CITY OF CI;-IANHASSEN PARK RULES PARK HOURS 6am-10pm No Person or Vehicle Allowed in Park After Hours Vehicles Prohibited From Off-Road Travel or Parking Alcohol Restricted to Canned Beer No Glass Containers Leashed Pets Allowed Only On Trails Pet Clean-Up Ordinance Enforced Snowmobiles Prohibited Littering La~vs Enforced OPTION A Approve Change REVIFW CAREFULLYI Please sign and fax back with approval by~ Color ~ ~ Spelling ~ ~ Approved by: Size ~ ~ Th~s drawing is the property of Sign Source, Inc. and may not be used, reproduced or disclosed without written authorization. ~SOURCE CREATIVE S ~I.I.,I~'ION B CONTAC'~ DRAWN BY.' f. douglass ext 204 SCALE: Not to Scale PROJECT: DATE: 6/25/01 FILE NAh~E: chan-rul.scv REV: 14530 Martin Drive Eden Prairie, MN 55344 (612) 975-4940 (fax) 975-9209 CITY OF CI-JANHASSEN PARK RULES m,l:OPm PARK HOURSi:i6a No Person or Vehicle Allowed in Park After Hours Vehicles Prohibited From Off-Road Travel-or Parking Alcohol Restricted to Canned Beer- No Glass Containers Leashed Pets Allowed Only On Trails Pet Clean-Up Ordinance Enforced Snowmobiles Prohibited Littering La.ws Enforced OPTION B Approv~ Chonge REVIEW CAREFULLY! Please sign and fax back with approval by: Color ~ ~ Spelling ~ ~ Approved by: Size ~ ~ This drawing is the property of Sign Source, Inc. and may not be used, reproduced or disclosed without written authorization. ~~SOURCE CIE,~'I ~t~; CONTACT.. PROJECT: FILE NAME: chan-rul.scv DRAWN BY.' f. douglass ext 204 DATE: 6/25101 RE~ SCALE: Not to Scale 14530 Martin Drive Eden Prairie, MN 55344 (612) 975-4940 (fax) 975-9209 "l-F-ITT' '"'"I /'1'- X PARK RULES No Person or Vehicle Allowed in Park After Hours Vehicles Prohibited From Off-Road Travel or Parking Alcohol Restricted to Canned Beer No Glass Containers Leashed Pets Allowed Only On Trails Pet Clean-Up Ordinance Enforced Snowmobiles Prohibited Littering La~s Enforced OPTION C Approve Change REVIEW CAREFULLYI Please sign and fax back with approval by: Color ~ ~ Spelling ~ ~ Approved by: Size ~ ~ This drawing is the property of Sign Source, Inc. and may not be used, reproduced or disclosed without written authorization. OUECE CleF-AT I YF.. ~zOLUTIONS CONTACI~ PRQJEC~ FILE NAME: chan-rul.scv DRAWN BY.' f. douglass ext 204 DATE: 6/25/01 REV: SCALE: Not lo Scale 14530 Martin Drive Eden Prairie, MN 55344 (612) 975-4940 (fax) 975-9209 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MAY 22, 2001 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Rod Franks, Jay Karlovich, Mike Howe, David Moes, Jack Spizale, and Tom Kelly. MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Rod Franks asked that commission member presentations be placed after Old Business number 1. Todd Hoffman stated that the commission needed to elect a Vice Chairman. ~ISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Howe moved, Franks seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission dated April 24, 2001 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimausly. WELCOME NEW/RETURNING COMMISSIONERS. Lash: Under new business we will welcome our new commissioners, Jack and Tom. Welcome. And welcome back to Jay. Wherever he' s been. PREPARATION OF NEW "PARK RULES" SIGN. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: Okay, any questions for Todd? Moes: Just clarification on what the practice golf. Has that issue come up as a problem or a standard or an ordinance or? Hoffman: It's not an ordinance, but generally the park maintenance folks chase people away. It's an issue of public safety more than anything. Moes: What jumped into my mind right away was the public safety is flying golf balls. I was just wondering if they'd addressed that at all. I-Ioffman: Well deputies aren't going to write a tag for it anyways, so it's generally up to our people but if it's on the sign then they'll go ahead and enforce it. If it's not, they don't have anything to go up to and say see. It says it on the sign. Park and Rex: Commission Meeting- May 22, 2001 Karlovich: What does staff feel about the color? I mean that seems like we're getting...a red sign. Hoffman: White sign with red lettering. Karlovich: That just seems. Hoffrnan: It's an enforcement sign so it will stand out. Howe: How many signs do we make? Hoffman: We' 11 make a couple hundred. Howe: How much is that going to cost? Hoffman: Those are probably about 10-15 bucks a sign. Howe: Oh okay. Moes: What was Dave Potts' recommendation on the colors that are missing? Hoffman: Bright lettering. White background, red lettering. Karlovich: Neon. .. Hoffman: If you could get it. If you Could get it. Lash: I like strong wording that he had...alcohol restricted to canned beer only I think just is better flowing...Leashed pets allowed only on trails... Hoffman: So you said it different than he did. Lash: Yeah, I just switched only. Allowed only on trails. But I don't like pet feces...but they're both pretty direct. Moes: Yon drop them, you pick them up. Lash: Pet clean-up, would that be? Karlovich: Are you going to move the only then on the next line? Howe: Canned beer. Only canned beer? Lash: Alcohol restricted to canned beer. Karlovich: Only?... Lash: Oh well I think it needs to be, they need to be prioritized what we think is the most important because people don't always read the whole sign so whatever we want them to know the most needs to be first. Because if they're driving past they're not going to read the whole sign so. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 2001 Kelly: Okay so on both the alcohol restricted to canned beer period. Pets allowed on trails period. Very straight. Very direct. Hoffman: Shorter is better in the writing books. Karlovich: It seems like the ordinance of glass containers should be next to the alcohol. Franks: ! understand the usage of the word only with the leashed pets allowed on trails. That doesn't. Howe: Yeah I agree. Franks: You know what I'm saying? You can't be on trails and it doesn't mean...also be on the grass tOO. Lash: It's allowed only on trails. Franks: Yeah. What I understood from before is that the sheriff' s deputies are really looking for rules that are clear enough for them to be enforceable when they stop somebody and they don't want to have to sit and argue with somebody. Well it doesn't say it can't be on the grass. It says I can only, it says I'm supposed to be on the trail. It doesn't say I can't be on the grass so then they're like okay. This is dumb to sit here and argue with this person. Like no person or vehicle allowed in parks after hours. Even I of course assume that just with park hours being listed but when they're trying to chase somebody out of the parking lot or tell them there they want it I think very clear that these are the park hours and no person or vehicle allowed in the park after hours. Kelly: You probably could say if you want to be consistent with the alcohol, you coUld say leashed pets restricted to trails. If you wanted to have, if you want to be kind of consistent between the two restrictions. In terms of wording. Karlovich: No leashes are allowed on grass. Hoffman: Hey we had this same conversation last time so continue on. Moes: I like white background, red lettering. Okay. Hoffman: Start from the top Jay. Lash: Well we need the hours first and then I think it needs to say no one allowed after hours. Hoffman: Okay, so we like that. Check, check. No person or vehicle allowed in parks after hours. Moes: I would say in park after hours. These are individual signs for the individual park. Karlovich: So we're going to remove the s. Moes: Yes. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 2001 Howe: And I think this is good because you could say well my car's in neutral, not park. I'm not a lawyer. Lash: What's the next most important thing? Keeping cars out of the grass? Hoffman: Well that's one of the bigger issues. At least at Lake Ann. Karlovich: I would think it'd be alcohol, wouldn't it? Hoffrnan: They write more tickets for off road than just about anything. Lash: So you have off road vehicle travel prohibited. Vehicles prohibited from off road travel or parking. That makes it more clear. Moes: Well I'm confused though. If you take this off road part off, off road travel you have vehicles prohibited from parking? Lash: Off road parking. It' s supposed to mean vehicles prohibited from being off the road. Driving off the road or parking off the road. Hoffman: Off road travel or off road parking. Lash: Or parking only in designated areas? Would that be two different things. Hoffman: We tried that last time, didn't we? It didn't work very well. Yeah, motorized vehicles restricted to roadways and parking areas only. Karlovich: Since we're being nit picky, there are areas that are marked as spots anywhere that's pavement... Hoffrnan: Yeah, that's not the case so. Karlovich: Is that all we care about is the parking on the grass? Hoffman: No. We also care about them parking in designated spots. Lash: Parking in designated paved areas only. We're never going to stop them... Howe: If you just reverse it, off road parking or travel, does that make it more clear? Lash: Yeah, maybe. But again it's not restricting it to designated areas. Sometimes it's not all totally designated. It's not always clear. Moes: Or you could just...travel or parking prohibited off road. Lash: Say that again. Moes: Vehicle travel or parking prohibited off road. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 2001 Lash: How about off road parking. Hoffman: Generally anywhere that there should not be on street parking we have a sign. So that may take care of that. Lake Ann, anyplace along the roads you're not supposed to be parking, we have it signed. So then this says in addition to that, vehicles prohibited from driving off road or parking off road because sometimes the parking lots get full. They park on the grass. We send the deputies out to Lake Ann to write tickets for off road parking a great deal of the time. Lash: Off road parking or travel prohibited. Moes: But that sounds like there's two pieces to it. One being parking restricted to designated areas. The second component being off road vehicle travel...activities. Lash: So you think it should be broken up? Moes: Yes. Howe: Well I think if you drove by the sign quickly, as Todd said, you want to have the meat of it in the first couple words. I think you'd understand vehicles prohibited from off road parking or travel. I think' you'd know what they're talking about. Lash: Okay, so you want it worded like that? Howe: Well Dave has a good point but I think we need to make it as short as we can too. Moes: Yeah it's less thinking and I was making two short statements which is what I was trying to run through in my mind. One being the parking restricted to designated areas. And the second area is the same point being no off road vehicle... Hoffman: You can see that Dave organized this in a centering pattern. It looks nice. Okay, alcohol you're pretty much in agreement on. Leashed pets allowed only on trails. Lash: I'm guessing that the pets would be the next'biggest issue after parking and off road travel. Karlovich: Snowmobiles...last I guess. Franks: I think if it's lower on the sign it'd be easier to read. So I'm thinking maybe that one should go. Hoffman: Well let's get through the wording and then we can worry about order. Lash: Okay, alcohol restricted to canned beer. I think that's... Glass containers prohibited. That's easy. Snowmobiles prohibited. That's easy. Can we put pet clean-up ordinance enforced? Or not? Hoffman: Sure. Lash: Will people get that? Kelly: What is the ordinance? Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 2001 Moes: Pooper scooper ordinance? Lash: Is that what it's called? Itoffman: Feces removal ordinance... Franks: But there's no off road traveling. Lash: And littering. Littering laws enforced. I-Ioffman: So what's the pet one? Pet clean-up ordinance enforced? Is clean-up a word? Franks: Hyphenated. Lash: So that's all of them, right? o..I don't know, there's no ordinance regarding the golf. Hoffman: No. Lash: So we'll be back into the position with the pets because there's no ordinance for anyone to enforce, so I agree with Sergeant Potts. It'd be difficult for them to enforce it because people will want to argue. Howe: What'd we decide about leashed pets? Are we going to do the top restrict it? How do we write that one? Lash: We put leashed pets allowed only on trails. Karlovich: Remember I was against that. Franks: It doesn't have to be an ordinance for us to have a set of rules. Karlovich: I thought we said it was okay... Howe: That was another commission. Hoffman: Just because you' re doing it you' re trying to make yourself feel good. Lash: Well the problem I think with it is, we go right back to enforcement the same as the pets on the trails. It was an unwritten rule that pets were allowed on the trails, but not within the park. But there was no ordinance that said that so when people were in the park area and the police would stop them, they'd get into the...that we're supposed to be able on the trails but that wasn't clear so I think it's difficult to put something on a sign if there's not going to be somebody behind it...to enforce it. Karlovich: Right, there's no ordinance for them to charge somebody. Lash: Right. If we want to recommend to the City Council that they make an ordinance so we can do Ihat, I suppose we can do that... Howe: Do we see a lot of this? What parks? All the parks? Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 2001 Hoffman: North Lotus. City Center. Lake Ann. Meadow Green. Lash: But you know, look at all the stuff people want to do in parks. I mean something they want to do in the park is bat and ball. Fly a kite and running and they crash... Howe: Are they really swinging? I mean we're just chipping here. I've never seen anybody do it. Lash: I haven't either. Hoffman: Some are, some aren't. Lash: I mean if we have to restrict every activity from the park... Itoffman: I think I've only received a couple of calls of people that were complaining and I've seen it a lot more times than that and I' ve never had to go up and talk to anybody because when they were conducting themselves in this activity, there wasn't anybody else around. Spizale: I think it's a common sense thing. You knoTM, because people...chipping golf balls. There's nobody around, yeah. I might swing at golf balls. I don't think it's worth putting on a sign. Lash: Okay, so we've got most everything else that we need. Hoffman: 9 items. You have 9 items. Lash: Prioritized. Hours. No one's allowed in outside of hours. Parking I think is the next biggest issue. I would guess that the pets are the next biggest issue but Todd what do you think is the next biggest one? Hoffman: Yeah. Lash: So pets would be the next biggest one of being on a leash and picking up. They go hand in hand. Off road is the next? Or do you think alcohol is the next? Hoffman: I put that right in, I put vehicles right in after 2. 2, 3, 4, 5. Lash: Okay, so then alcohol. Hoffman: Yeah, then 6 would be alcohol. 7 would be glass. 8 would be snowmobiling. 9 would be litter. Karlovich: Before we word all the signs, are we going to see one? Or maybe we should discuss this color issue. Lash: Did you want that to be tan and green? They want white with red, right? Howe: That's your typical don't do this sign. Franks: White with green. Does that not show up enough, is that their concern? Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 2001 Spizale: I think white with green is more park like~ Franks: That's what I'm thinking. Sp]zale: Red and white seems kind of harsh. Karlovich: ...I've never seen park rules sign. Hoffman: They see it all the time. Karlovich: Whichever color it is...until somebody points out the rules. Hoffman: People use red as a attention getter. Red sells. Whatever you want to recommend. Spizale: It just doesn't seem very friendly. It's bad enough to come to a park and see all these things you can't do. Even though that's one of the things you look for to see what you can do in the park, maybe just a little bit more...the colors they've got in this brochure are great. Howe: That's a good point. Any opinions on what other cities? I'm trying to think at Minnewashta Regional, do they have signs up there? What colors are they? I can't recall. Hoffman: I don't recall either. Howe: All I think of is downtown no parking. White background, red letters and it sends a message. You can look at it and know it's something you're not supposed t'o do. You're right about the friendliness but if you want to, you can't do this people. Spizale: I think Hennepin Parks has brown and white. Hoffman: I don't know if they have it on the rules signs. I know they have a lot of directional signs. Spizale: I think on the rules too. Lake Minnetonka the same. thing. Franks: Can we go two color? I mean white background with green lettering and then a red.°. Hoffman: Christmas. Franks: It'd be suitable for all year round. Hoffman: It's not fiscally responsible. Lash: I actually don't really care. Howe: You don't care about this one? Lash: No. Karlovich: What does staff recommend? Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 2001 Lash: He did. He recommends red lettering on white background. Hoffman: It's universal language. Franks: Well I'd like personally I'd like to see the sign with green lettering on a white background. It just seems more consistent with our visual perception of park than red. Aesthetically I don't like it but then I also don't like the kind of the no that it says. Red in your face when we're supposed to be engaging them in activity, not... Lash: Personally ! would have liked to have seen all of the rules stated in a positive manner, but unfortunately I know...You know canned beer allowed only. That's positive. As opposed to saying no, restricted fight. Howe: Two sentences they get their message across. Lash: Yeah I know. Okay, somebody needs to make a motion... Karlovich: ...has anyone been to Excelsior Park in downtown Excelsior? They have little things with the...pooper scooper type stuff fight there provided for you. I mean if we're having enforcement problems, is that something we want to do? Lash: You've supposed to provide your own. Howe: I'll save my Rainbow bags from the food counter and. Lash: You're supposed to be able to produce. Franks: On your person. Lash: Yes. An instrument of pick-up. Karlovich: I was just wondering if we're behind the times by not. Hoffman: No. Many cities choose not to because then you've got to supply the little vending machines ,and the little gloves forever and ever and ever and no. Lash: Ws not that hard to have a bread bag tied onto your leash. Franks: Are you taking this down and developing this further or are you looking for a definite recommendation this evening? Hoffman: I think we've got it pretty well thought through with the comments from Sergeant Potts and ready to go up to the council and get these things put into place. Lash: Well you know...Sergeant Potts had it, you know that was a pleasing, eye pleasing thing. I don't know if our's will shake down that way. It'd be nice to see how it will, you know if nothing else if it went like this it would be okay but that' s .just kind of all over everywhere. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - May 22, 2001 Hoffman: This reads a lot nicer than that with the double lines like that. That doesn't read very well. We can do it like this. You know even with gaps. That will be fine. Moos: Okay. That's what I like about it. I like the left alignment. Just stating my opinion here. Spizale: I've got a question. Is this leaf the symbol of Chanhassen? Hoffrnan: Yes. Spizale: Could you do a leaf with the lettering, white lettering with a green leaf...? Franks: You mean a stamped, cut out shape of a leaf?. Spizale: Yeah. It'd still be square. These could still be in there. Lash: You're talking about the printing on the...would that be more expensive? Hoffman: Probably, sure. Franks: Aesthetically that would be-nice. I wouldn't want anything to detract from people actually getting the message. Moos: Before you do that Jay, just a quick question. When are we looking to have these signs put up? Is that something we' re shooting for next month? Lash: It's already the end of May. If we table it til June, then it has to go to City Council a couple weeks later. The signs will be... Hoffman: About the time we can put them up is this fall anyway. We're too busy. Kelly: One more quick thing. Do you think it'd be easier or harder to read if you put bullets onto the rules? Hoffman: I can come back with 4 or 5 different layouts for you. I can see where we're headed here. We're going to pick one out and vote on it. Karlovich: Okay, I' 11 make a motion for staff to take our input with regards to language and come back with a couple different choices on designs and possibly I guess also take our input with regards to color and designs and come back with a couple different choices for us. And that's about it. Lash: Is there a second to that? Moos: Second. Karlovich moved, Moes seconded to direct staff to provide the commission with a choice of park rule signs taking into consideration input regarding language and colors. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. APPOINTMENT OF VICE CHAIRMAN. 10 CITYOF '90 G~7 Ce~m'r Drive, PO Box I47 G~,tmsm~. Minnesota 55317 Phone 612.93Z 19~ Gm ~d Fro' 612. 93 Z 5 73 ~ E~g F~ 612.93Z9152 Pub& S~O, F~' 612.9M.2524 IV~ wu,md, chanh~zmn.~ MEMORANDUM TO: Park and Recreation Commission FROM: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director DATE: May 11, 2001 SUB J: Preparation of New "Park Rules" Sign The city's current park rules sign reads: CITY OF CHANHASSEN PARK RULES Park Hours: 6:00 a.m.-I 0:00 p.m. Motorized Vehicles Restricted to Roadways and Parking Areas Only. Glass Containers Prohibited Alcoholic Beverages Restricted to Canned Beer Only No Pets Allowed Snow,nobiling on Designated Trails Only HELP KEEP. YOUR PARKS CLEAN PLEASE DO NO LITTER PARK RULES ENFORCED The signs are 24" x 30", reflectorized with a brown background and xvhite lettering. The Carver County Deputies have suggested that the signs should be updated to include new rules and colors highlighted. Staff's suggested ~vording for a new sign: CITY OF CHANHASSEN PARK RULES Park Hours 6:00 a.m.-10:00 p.m. Pets Leashed Allowed on Trails Only Pooper Scooper Ordinance Enforced Glass Containers Prohibited Alcoholic Beverages Restricted to Canned Beer Off-Road Vehicle Travel Prohibited No Snowmobiling Practice Golf Prohibited Littering Laws Enforced 1' . I would recommend red lettering on a white background. i look forward to working on this with you on the 22"a. g:\park\th\newparkrulessignmemo.doc Park & Rec Co~nmission Meeting - November 28, 2000 Lash: I didn't get a chance to look at it yet. Franks: The tree is beautiful. Hoffman: Out front? Franks: Yes. I don't remember that tree being... Lash: So could we just leave it out there? Hoffman: It's the scale Rod. The scale is going to get larger so you don't see the tree. The water was just this week, Monday morning they put the water your yard hydrant up into the community garden so if you see a community garden developing up here on the corner of Santa Vera and Kerber so next year Jill will, Jill Sinclair will handle the reservations. We'll put a fence up in the spring and garden plots will be assigned. Water is there so it's one more element to the park system. ADMINISTRATIVE: INITIATE DISCUSSION ON NEW PARK RULES SIGN. Lash: Are we ready to tackle the park rule sign? The fight's been taken out of me so. Hoffman: We can start. Lash: Okay, we're not getting any subtitles. Hoffman: Issues with the sign with the law enforcement folks, they believe it's too park colored. It should stand out and prominently exposed. They're always asked to enforce the ordinances that are on the books when they approach these people. They always say that they didn't know the rules and they didn't see that brown sign located at the location that we currently have them in the parks. Karlovich: I didn't know you could have canned beer. Berg: I thought ignorance was no excuse. Hoffman: It isn't. Lash: We labored extensively over the wording. Franks: The only one that needs to be changed, really the line about pets. Hoffman: That's about the only one on this rendition, yes. There are other things that could be added or things here could be changed. Howe: Or the color too, right. Berg: Well if you want to get real picky, the 21st century phenomenon is plastic beer bottles now. So there's nothing wrong with plastic beer bottles. 36 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - November 28, 2000 Lash: Well I don't know, do we even need to have alcoholic beverages restricted to canned beer. Why don't we say no glass? Doesn't that cover it? Hoffman: No, because they can't have wine. Booze. Lash: Yeah, but that's in glass. Hoffman: The box. Lash: Oh yeah, I suppose. I forget about that. Hoffman: Because you can drink beer in any park in the city. Franks: You can? Without getting like the permit or anything? I didn't know that. Lash: Well you can't sell it. Hoffman: You can have a keg in every park. Lash: It's been done too. Howe: Voice of experience there. Hoffman: Across the metro, about 50% of the parks allow alcohol. About 50% don't. Lash: Well and that kind of goes back to the softball leagues when they would haVe their kegs and stuff out there. Berg: And it hasn't really been a problem. With intoxication. Hoffman: So I can propose a change of rules. I can look at other issues. Franks: Is there anything else that you feel needs to be added? I mean we could change the line about the pets and say something like, alcoholic beverages restricted to beer in non-glass containers. I mean those are simple changes but is there anything else that you see needs to be added? Lash: What about the snowmobiling thing? Ruegemer: Motorized vehicles. Hoffman: Isn't that mentioned on there? Snowmobiles on designated trails only. And that rule might be dated as well because there's going to be a bigger push here, in the coming years to have... Lash: But if we don't have something on there now, and they're still legal, then people will say well, nobody said I can't snowmobile all through the fields. Franks: It's posted. Ruegemer: Address the dog on the leash issue. 37 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - November 28, 2000 Lash: Leashed dogs on trails only or something like that. And pick-up. Karlovich: Oh, do we have to put that? We're going to put like a little picture like those others... Lash: Baggies required. Karlovich: Where the people are right there down with their catcher's mitt or whatever... Hoffman: Also, I'll send a message over to Sgt. Potts asking to kind of do an informal survey of deputies and perhaps we can do a more formal survey of the type of incidents that they do run into. There's lots of parking after hours. Hours are important. Lash: Well and parking, we've got something on that, right? Hoffman: Designated areas only. Lash: Yeah. So maybe we just need to be more specific, no parking on the grass? I mean it says in designated areas only, which means not the grass because that's not designated, but then. Ruegemer: Too much interpretation. Lash: You probably noticed in the rule signs around the world that many times they just go right out of the ordinance book. Just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I'm not so confident that our ordinances are in such good condition that we want to be quoting all of the ordinances° Berg: Let's be careful and not get too picky here. Howe: Let's keep it in English. Berg: I mean these people are not idiots I hope. I can't park on the grass but can I park on the dirt? How about if the top of my beverage is not made out of plastic but it's made out of metal... I know you're not going to but let's not get real, real pickyo.. Lash: Well what's the whole...they think they want that's not a park code? HolT-man: White with red letters. Franks: No, no. Can't we go like grayish with green? You know, could we do. What I'm thinking, could we do white with orange. Or beige with orange. I mean I'm trying to think of those colors of the maple leaf. You know trying to like work that in here... Howe: But you want people to see them. Hoffman: Have the maple leaf red. Franks: There you go. Get that maple leaf red... Lash: How about cream? 38 Park & Rec Commission Meeting - November 28, 2000 Berg: We'll trust you to come up with something. Lash: Yeah, make sure you avoid the Chapter 74, Subtitle 3, Paragraph 4. Hoffman: I've seen those everywhere. They put them up there. Lash: I thought that was directed personally at us. Hoffman: No, no. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. ~ Lash: Fred, do we have anything about the Memorial Committee? Is there something happening with that or are we waiting til. Hoffman: December meeting, you'll have a presentation on the memorial plan. The brochure. It seems to be quite popular among staff and those people that have seen it so far. Lash: You mean there's going to be a presentation here? At the park commission? Hoffman: Correct. Berg: That will be great. \j COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: Franks: Just one quick thing. What I'd like to do, and maybe get some feedback from the commission, is start thinking about next year and the presentation we had from Brian Hubbard from the YMCA and what we might like to do with that. I know one of the things that we talked about earlier was to set a time for a work session where we could actually talk about what it is that we'd be interested in or maybe hear more in depth about what the Y is interested in doing or maybe have some informal discussions back and forth about what we consider for our community and then like what the Y's process would be and what that process would be. Lash: So could we do that first just as a commission? Franks: Well, I think that we can. I'd prefer that we'd just maybe get together and have a little... Lash: Without him? Yeah, me too. And I think we talked about that the last time that we wanted to have just a work session but then you know. Franks: Because the idea is if we decide what it is that we're looking for, we can tell them and then they can decide whether that's something they want to be a part of or not. Then if not, then we all can move Oil. 39 PATROL DIVISION Memo To: Todd Hoffman From: Dave Potts Date: 3~23~00 Re: City Park Rules Signs Todd, The city parks have a rules sign at the entrances. The problem is they are dark brown signs, not well lit, with small writing. Deputies working the overnight shift continually find people in the parks after 1 Opm who claim they didn't notice the sign. Deputies don't feel right about charging people when the signage isn't very good. I agree on the signage problem. Here are a couple suggestions for your consideration: Replace the brown signs with larger signs, using a highly visible color contrast stating something similar to .... Park Ordinances Enforced by Police +CLOSED lO:OOpm-6:OOam+ No pets allowed. Alcohol Limited to canned beer only. Vehicle operation on designated roadways only. Parking in designated area only, No vehicles left in park after lO:OOpm Or, if that would not be feasible, an additional sign, standard white and black, that would highlight the closed hours. Thank you Page I