Loading...
1i Approval of MinutesCHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING JULY 9, 2001 Acting Mayor Labatt called the meeting to order at 7:05 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Acting Mayor Labatt, Councilman Ayotte, Councilman Peterson, and Councilman Boyle COUNCIL MEMBERS ABSENT: Mayor Jansen STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Todd Hoffman, Jill Sinclair, Sharmin A1-Jaff, and Kate Aanenson PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS: Name Address Deb Lloyd Janet & Jerry Paulsen 7302 Laredo Drive 7305 Laredo Drive OATH OF OFFICE. City Attorney Roger Knutson administered the Oath of Office to Gary Boyle. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: PRESENTATION OF ENVIRONMENTAL EXCELLENCE AWARDS. Public Present: Name Address Peter Olin Linda & Tracy Spevacek Camille & Katie Wood Brittany Bonnema Connie & Kelly Palmer Martha Jarrett Terry Hartman Don Huseth Ann Cathcart Mark & Kay Halla Jennifer Zbinden Minnesota Landscape Arboretum 1240 79~ Street, Victoria 711 Laura Court, Chaska 675 Essenlane, Chaska 2360 Bridle Creek Court 7071 Redman Lane 2510 Auburn Drive, Victoria 7332 Frontier Trail 7949 Autumn Ridge Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay, under public announcements we're going to have the presentation of the Environmental Excellence Awards by Jill Sinclair of our Environmental Department. So fin:st I'm going to have all of us down there to present the awards individually. City Council Meeting- July 9, 2001 Clay Smith: Good evening. I'm Clay Smith. I'm with the Environmental Commission. Jill's going to hand out the awards. Other than that, everybody ready? Okay, this if the first year for this award and so we had a lot of people entered. We're hoping for more next year so just remember in our eyes so far everybody was a winner. We have two categories. Category A, which is for residential, community and educational groups. And then Category B was for business or commercial groups. So starting off with the Category A, which is the residential, community or educational groups. The first award for Stewardship goes to the River Bluff Girl Scout Troop 1894 and Ann Cathcart receiving tonight. Ann Cathcart: We have 6 girl scouts and 5 are here tonight. One is at Girl Scout camp. Clay Smith: Anybody feel like describing your project real quick? Tracy Spevacek: Okay, we put together bird houses. Bluebird houses and we put them up in Memorial Park in Chanhassen and that helped the bluebirds find their homes because people chopped down their trees before birds had the chance to build nests. Ann Cathcart: Tracy, why don't you mention it's the new Memorial Park that's just being developed. Tracy Spevacek: This is the new Memorial Park just being developed. Clay Smith: Thank you very much. Onto the landscape or land management category we have Mark and Kay Halla. Are they here tonight? And company. Could you give us a quick description of what you did? Mark Halla: Yeah, I supposed we could. We had a unique opportunity because we had a lot out near our nursery, which is 2 V2 acres and we had a home that we actually bought that was in Edina and so we had a house mover move this house to our property and so there was a lot of different and unique challenges but it tested our skills and we had an opportunity to just start from scratch so to speak. Plunk the house down in the middle of it and develop landscape around it. Clay Smith: Sounds great. The ultimate in re-use. The next category is for the Reduce, Reuse and Recycle. That went to Marcus and Jennifer Zbinden. Do you care to give us a few words on what you did? Jennifer Zbinden: Okay, well I guess it's more what we try to do everyday. Everything from vegetables and fruit and what not never goes into the garbage, even in the winter. It goes out to the compost pile, which we anxiously await spring then. And all our yard waste, which we spend a lot of time landscaping, goes in there as well. And we try to buy things in the largest size packaging you can and those are the things that come to mind. Clay Smith: A master composter. Thank you very much. And then the last for Category A is the Other Category, and that went to the Sunrise Hills neighborhood. Donald Huseth accepting. Can you give us a word sir. Donald Huseth: Well I'd like to thank everybody here and especially the people in the Sunrise Hills area for all the work they've done for this. And I want to thank all of you. City Council Meeting- July 9, 2001 Clay Smith: Thanks sir. Okay, Category B, our subcategory for Stewardship went to St. Hubert's School of Fifth Graders. I have Lane Benzik and some of the fifth graders accepting. We have a plaque for them for this category and the plaque is made out of totally recyclable materials as I understand it. Lane Benzik: Anybody want to tell them what we did for recycling? Clay Smith: Anybody, come on. Anybody. Lane Benzik: We, every week, twice a week these kids work in teams to, we have a very large building. St. Hubert' s Catholic Community. All the offices, all the classrooms do recycling of all paper, newspaper. We also do aluminum but these guys don't collect that. Another group does that. They take it out to the bin. We worked on educating all the classes as to what can go in our recycling and what should not and they had to go back about halfway through the year and re-educate the classes because there was a lot of junk in there. So they spent their time and they really do it very independently. Worked very hard. Clay Smith: Thank you very much. Lane Benzik: This is by the way only a few of the 52 kids that worked on this. Clay Smith: The next subcategory is for Reduce, Reuse and Recycle under the business or commercial and it goes to the Chanhassen Child Development Center with Norma Johnson and Karen Canfield receiving. Can I ask one of you to say a word on what you did? Norma Johnson: Our school asked people in the community and the parents of the children that come to the school to bring in their used ink jet and laser jet cartridges from computers. We have a company that sends us boxes postage free and then we send it back to them and our school gets points for computer games and software and digital cameras, things like that. And in America alone there's 275 million that are thrown in dumps every year so this is just a start but we've collected a lot through the community already so we hope that it helps. Clay Smith: Thank you very much. Our last one tonight goes for the Landscaping or Land Management category. It goes to the Minnesota Landscape Arboretum. Mr. Peter Olin accepting the award. Peter Olin: Thanks very much. It's really an honor to get this award from the city and we're going to display it proudly. We've got a lot of different models up there, not only modeled back yards and gardens but model roadway plantings. Model parking lots and we're hopefully going to do a model using rain water disposals so you've got to all come up and see it. Thank you. Clay Smith: Thank you very much. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: b. Approve Park Rules Sign Design, Layout and Color. c. Approval of Water Tower Antenna Agreement, Sprint. City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 d. Approval of Private Redevelopment Agreement for a 32,000 sq. ft. Office/Manufacturing Building, Arboretum Business Park 2nd Addition, Parker Hannifin. e. Approval of Bills. Approval of Minutes: - City Council Work Session Minutes dated June 25, 2001 - City Council Minutes dated June 25,2001 Receive Commission Minutes: - Planning Commission Minutes dated June 19, 2001 g. Request for a Conditional Use Permit for Construction of Two Accessory Buildings and a Horse Ring within the Secondary Bluff Creek Overlay District, 1560 Bluff Creek Road, John Klingelhutz. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 4 to 0. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Public Present: Name Address Judy Severson Kent Kersten Cec Meister Robb Vaules Gail Felicetta 8736 North Bay Drive 8731 North Bay Drive 174 Lakeview Road East 8796 North Bay Drive 8795 North Bay Drive Judy Severson: My name is Judy Severson. I live at 8736 North Bay Drive. I'm here to speak about the Lakeview Apartments briefly. I'm the president of the association. Along with me this evening I have brought our entire board. Vice President, Cic Meister. Treasurer, Robb Vaules. Secretary, Gail Felicetta and member at large, Kent Kersten. I believe you've read the letter that I sent to each of you dated July 6, 2001 concerning the Lakeview Apartments. I would like you to be aware that the concerns listed in the letter did not include all our concerns or all the incidences we've had with the apartments, nor with all the criminal activity that has taken place there. But I'm not going to speak at length about that. That's not while I'm here. I wanted you to physically see people, the board that live in that community and care about that community. After the incident on July 5th we feel a real urgency in solving this long standing problem with the Lakeview Apartments. This incident has generated a lot of fear in our community. Since we are not a gated community and we share access, an access road into our community and thus into the Lakeview Apartments. We also share side by side property. We each have our own private beachlot. The Lakeview Apartments and the North Bay Townhome Association. We are feeling more vulnerable to any potential criminal activity generated from them because of our situation as far as location. We are a small community. We're 76 homes. We're all trying to live safe and honest lives. We are a community of people raising children, building careers, and enjoying their retirement. In fact many of the people hope to live out their lives at North Bay, as long as they're healthy enough to do that. We strongly feel the city government needs to exercise more pressure on the apartment owner. We are now aware that gang members are living in the Lakeview Apartments, which City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 adds to the urgency to do something now. We are aware that there has been a meeting today of Chanhassen and Carver County officials to discuss specifically Lakeview Apartments. We would appreciate any updates regarding your findings and actions taken. We want to actively participate with you in any way necessary to solve this difficult situation. As I said in my letter to you, our homeowners look to the board for answers to this problem, and the North Bay Board is looking to all of you for assistance in answering them. We appreciate your help in this situation. Acting Mayor Labatt: Thank you. Anybody else? Barbara Kreisler: Hi. I'm Barbara Kreisler and I'm here regarding the Fox Chase, the easement. I believe most of you have probably received an e-mail that my husband had sent you this morning. We've been working up until a month ago, two years with the city. We've been working about two years with the city, city attorney, our attorney, Todd Hoffman, and the Hedlund's to work on an agreement because the initial path, proposed negatively affected our property. It would take out much of our front yard and most of the side yard, and coming to the meeting a month ago we were here for the final vacation of it and the easement on the Hedlund's property. The main one onto the additional, the other lots. Once the neighbors found out about the meeting coming up, they hadn't had much notice. It was a matter of a few days that they had found out about the meeting coming up. They were very upset. Came down to our property, which we opened up to an open house and plotted out the path to show them, and I think most of the residents felt the path was where they had been walking for about 12 years, and that's not. That's private property. The path is all our landscape, our lawn. A good majority of the front and side yard. But when they came to us they said is there anyway we can come to an agreement and my husband, we ended up agreeing to, if we can do it on the lot line and make it very narrow, we wouldn't mind and we could even widen it further down on, toward the lake and then onto the Hedlund's property. So we ended up giving in on our agreement with the Hedlund's to compromise with the neighborhood and we came asking if the city could compromise too. If they could compromise by making the path only 42 inches, my husband ended up saying 48 inches. We have a very small front lot and it really would impact our property value. And I felt like when we left we lost both. It was now going to be, definitely go to the lake and they were still talking 5 feet. The neighbors had been notified the last time and this time we weren't involved because we were out of town and if I hadn't had somebody call me last night, we wouldn't have been here. My husband's out of town. We have had no input. We're the one with the property owners involved, as well as the Hedlund's and yet there's been no input from anybody since the last meeting. There were going to be feasibility studies. I saw one day when Todd Hoffman and Matt, a city engineer, out at the property and it was my impression that he didn't think it was going to happen. It's a serious grade issue. It's going to be a liability problem and we kind of, you know it just appeared like the city, it may not happen and there was a private surveyor out about 2 weeks ago. And then comes the plan about the stairs. Nobody talked to my husband and I. The Hedlund's. Any of the neighbors involved. The neighbors found out by getting this letter on Saturday, which was 2 days ago. We have concerns about the bikes and the strollers and I had Todd Hoffman had left a message today. We didn't connect, saying that the residents can continue on straight into Mohawk as they've done in the past. Well if that's the case, why are we spending $57,000, plus additional funds, because there's some other issues I need to discuss, to make the path go to the lake if the people on the bike and strollers still have to go straight through. And we have a light pole in our front yard, and we have utility boxes. Where are they going to go? What's that going to cost? I mean already my yard, we have an acre but it's very tiny in the front. We' ve got a third of it gone with easement and where' s that light pole going to go? Where are the utility boxes going to go? Nobody's discussed that with us. There's also apparently a possibility of a need for additional land at the back of the lot where it takes the L onto our, Hedlund's property to the lake. We haven't been, like my husband had said, come talk to us about it if that's needed. Nobody's talked to us and we have a letter in our mailbox and not everybody in the neighborhood got the letter so City Council Meeting- July 9, 2001 there were a lot of them that weren't informed about this meeting tonight. So I'm asking that this maybe be tabled so we can have meetings with the city, the planners, whoever did the feasibility studies, Hedlund' s, and Mike Wegler's involved too, and have input from all of us. This was all done without any input, any conversation with us. My husband's been waiting for calls to let us know what's happening and we find out through a neighbor on Sunday when we got home. Thank you. Mike Wegler: Mike Wegler, I live at 6630 Mohawk Drive. I received this map Friday afternoon from Todd Hoffman. I'm kind of concerned about the way it was drawn. There's no cut or fills. There's no stakes out on the site. Councilman Ayotte: There's no what? Mike Wegler: There's no cut and fills on this map. There's none out on the site. There's no staking. There's nothing there. Anybody could have drawn this up. I think we need to go out there and measure it out. See if it's going to work. I was hoping that it would be no steps. I know it's going to be a steep grade. Todd's got some figures of 25 % there. Without doing surveys and getting it measured out right, I don't think that's possible. I think it's going to be a lot less. But like I said, there's nothing out there to tell us that. That's all. I kind of shot it out with an eye level and stepping it off. I come up with different figures so. I think it should be, a little more research done. Ann Miller: Good evening. My name is Ann Miller. I live at 6561 Fox Path in the Fox Chase division and I thank the homeowners for letting me know about this too. I found this in my mailbox this afternoon. I' ve talked to the city and Mr. Hoffman numerous times about Fox Chase and for those, even though I look old, I've lived here in '92 from Kansas and I live in a house that was imported from Sweden and it's quite notorious. Anyway, for those of you who don't know it, Lotus Lake used to be called Long Lake and the Derrick Land Company are the developers of our 50 houses I believe that are there now. An Environmental Assessment was done. It was called Sunrise Beach. That north part of Lotus Lake at one time and I have a copy here. Also in last week's newspaper, I have one of notes from the City Council meeting I think it was. I saw the developer has purchased land and there would be, I think 6 or 9 lots developed along the shores of Lotus Lake. And I know in doing some research on my own property, the soils around where we live are pretty fragile. The ground water comes within a foot of the surface at any time of the year. It's not necessarily due to seasons. There are many ground water springs that feed both Christmas and Lotus Lake. And as far as the environment issues go here, should the watershed districts be involved? I know many engineering studies have been done on individual lots where I live also. At home I have a file that is this large considering all the hydrology. I did a lot of research on it because of water problems on my own lot and I really don't see, and there's also a covenant of condition, restriction easement for Fox Chase that was given to me by my realtor when we purchased our property. Also there's an inventory and evaluation of soil and water. Councilman Ayotte: Could you go to your previous statement? I didn't catch all that. Ann Miller: Yeah. We have a Declaration of Covenants, Conditions, Restrictions and Easements for Fox Chase that was developed by the Derrick Land Company. It was signed in 1983 and it's good for 30 years. It has 25 different sections and I guess none of these, if you would read some of these, have been followed to the letter and therefore I don't see why this particular path should be followed to the letter either. I think you should listen to the owners of these lots. I think we can make the lot, or the path shorter and why can't it go straight to the road? I don't see why it should go down that hill and make it an issue for the lake. It just doesn't make sense to spend all that money to do that when we could actually have a nice little path that goes straight to that road and then, roads are public so why not just City Council Meeting- July 9, 2001 leave it that way. I don't understand why you have to go all the way down to the lake and make the crazy path, even though it's stated somewhere on some legal document. Because I have lots of other legal documents here and those haven't been followed either. And you know as time marches on, if you, Derrick Land Company, where are those people? I have their numbers and phone numbers and addresses at home and they don't want to talk about it anymore. So I think you need to listen to the people who are here at the time and I think together the city and the homeowners in the area, the people who live in the area can solve it but I think you should have given us more time, just as the homeowners of these two sites mentioned. Thank you. Acting Mayor Labatt: Thanks. Anybody else? Charles Nagel: My name is Charles Nagel. I live at 6340 Fox Path. I haven't been involved in the past because I was hoping common sense would prevail but I'm not so sure that it is. I guess as a user of the path, bike riding, strollers, wagons and that sort of thing, I just have to say that a path or trail with steps is just totally unacceptable. No one's going to be able to use it. Most of the people that I've observed, you know the kids that use the path need to be able to negotiate it safely and I think we're kind of forgetting the reason we have a trail and that's so youngsters can get from Fox Path down to the lake. And a steep series of steps I think isn't going to work. I think that by using the original proposal, I agree with the homeowners that are involved, that with a minimal amount of grading you won't need to, and I can't vouch for that because I'm not a land surveyor but I think a path going straight down to Mohawk can be built. It could be used without steps so I'd just like to, I think going back and re-visiting these things is the only way to go. Acting Mayor Labatt: Thank you. Anybody else? APPROVE PLANS & SPECIFICATIONS AND AUTHORIZE SOLICITATION OF BIDS; FOX CHASE TRAIL CONNECTOR. Public Present: Name Address Barbara Kreisler Mike Wegler Greg & Barb Hedlund Chuck Nagel Ann K. Miller 764 Lake Point 6630 Mohawk Drive 748 Lake Point 6340 Fox Path 6561 Fox Path Todd Hoffman: Thank you, what do I call him? Todd Gerhardt: Acting Mayor. Todd Hoffman: Acting Mayor Labatt and council members. Well the Fox Chase trail connector is the topic of the evening so it would be my pleasure to go through the series of events that have taken place since last time we met on May 29th and June 11th. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay. City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Todd Hoffman: I have more copies of this available for those who are sitting out there in the audience. There's some changes to the trail map. This came in late last week on Thursday. Napa Drive is not shown on the plan.., so this is where the trail terminates and then it would come back on street and back in this location. So that's the change in the terminus of the trail. A couple of things we're noting in here. There's been some question about the grade, and without a field survey we can't document that but nevertheless, the hill to the lake is about twice as steep or a little bit better than twice as steep as the hill from the cul-de-sac to the back of the lot here. It does drop off from the back of the lots onto Mohawk even farther so that would increase this grade if that trail connection was the one that was built at that location. First of all I'd like to back up. There's obviously a lot of history. A dozen years, 13 years. I think this is about the second or third go around that I've given this trail on behalf of the neighborhood and the residents up there to get it through so everyone can have a, what I would call an improved trail segment in their neighborhood. It's unimproved currently. It's being used but there are people in the neighborhood who do not know it's available as a public easement and I think that's a detriment to those individuals who would look at that as inbetween two people homes and would not use it as a trail connector so I think it's our responsibility as a city to improve that connector as was discussed back when this neighborhood was originally developed. On May 29th there was a series of events which changed the direction of the current proposal. That evening it was staff' s recommendation that we simply take the trail straight down between the lots to Mohawk and make the shortcut. Do the switch in the easements, and when I talked about the switch that would take, under that proposal you would remove the easement from the Kreisler' s. Put it over onto the Hedlund's and for that exchange then the Hedlund's have this taken away from their lot. So they would accept an easement here and reduce this, or take this one away at that location. The neighbors you heard from that night said quite clearly that they did not want to see that happen. The trail was originally, the original intentions were to take it down to Carver Beach, down to the park and utilize that shoreline in that park area as a part of this experience. This trail experience. So the council and the people in the audience that evening were in agreement to that and the direction that evening was really about, let's see this on paper. Let's see a plan. What will it look like? Council gave staff direction to have a plan drawn up with a 5 foot trail in this location, going from Lake Point cul-de-sac down to the lake using the original easement. So these easements are unchanged from the original dedication. You have a 15 foot easement here. 15 foot trail easement here and a 10 foot easement here. Councilman Ayotte: Do that again Todd. Todd Hoffman: 15 feet. There's 15 feet, which is a narrow easement to begin with, and then 10 feet from here down to the lake, which is much narrower yet. You know I can stretch arms, you've got 4 feet more and you're trying to put a trail as wide as my arms in that 10 feet. It's not very big. And so when we talk about grading to change grade, or to change to lessen the slope, if you only have 10 feet that you're trying to grade into, you can't change the grade for the deal. You can't change the steepness of that slope. In order to do that, to any great extent, you take off the top of the hill. To fill it at the bottom you need a much wider area to do that so you can change the steepness or the grade of the hill to a minor degree but not to a great degree in that location. So this is the plan that we have drawn up. I called the consulting engineer first off and we went and visited the site. That individual wanted nothing to do with building a trail on a 20 or 25 degree slope hillside. We have two other locations in the city where you would see a trail similar to that. I would never intend to build one in the first place and I wouldn't want to do it again. There's a couple locations. There's one in Curry Farms, if you're familiar with that at all. Where it comes down from the top and into Curry Farms Park. And the second is out of, is the cul-de-sac in Chanhassen Hills that the trail goes to Lake Susan Hills Park. So those are two areas where these trails were built on a very steep grade. We receive a lot of calls about the safety. Why would the city build something like that? To compound this even worst at this location, if you were to make a 6 foot or City Council Meeting- July 9, 2001 an 8 foot asphalt trail down that, and then you'd have to take a 90 degree turn at the bottom and make a right hand turn to navigate that location. This one is not that much better, although it' s about half as steep so you're still, you're making a 90 degree turn here which is not ideal and we talked about that at the last council meeting. That's one of the reasons of taking the alternate route, which just simply takes you straight through was attractive because you have to make these 90 degree bends. The city, to have accept this easement in the first place, it wasn't thought out at the time. We're here. We have to live with it and so we're doing the best that we can. So we drew the plan. The council wanted the neighborhood to be involved, or at least to be aware that the, what the plan said. Or what it depicted so we mailed that out last week and the stairway I think is the best solution. It's safer than taking a trail down that hillside and people who want to bike can either walk their bike down along side the stairway or they can take the Mohawk exit, which a majority of the traffic takes today so. I'm comfortable with the plan. I think you're hearing a cry to talk it over and talk it over and I think we've done that a great deal up to this point and it's my or staff' s recommendation that we move forward. Approve the plan and take bids on the project. Acting Mayor Labatt: Questions? Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, I do. Acting Mayor Labatt: This isn't a public hearing tonight so, questions from the council. Councilman Ayotte: How much have we spent with the consultant and, I don't want you to go over the last 13 years but what do you think has been the cost of arguing back and forth this situation? Todd Hoffman: In the past couple years? It's in the thousand of dollars with staff time. Councilman Ayotte: $2,000? $10,0007 Todd Hoffman: $5,000 probably, or better. Councilman Ayotte: And I think the cost that you have, the...cost for this is 50 plus thousand. Todd Hoffman: $57,000. We have the breakdown in there. The majority of it is in that recycled stairway. And then the $20,000 for the bituminous. Councilman Ayotte: Is the cost driver the stairs? Todd Hoffman: It doubles. Yeah, it nearly doubles the cost of the project. Councilman Ayotte: And now if it was my kid going down on a bike, he would take the stairs. Of course he's the one that also got a concussion just a few weeks ago. Yeah, I am a little bit concerned about kids taking that route as probably something that we should at least recognize. The light post. Mrs. Kreisler did not mention her light post, but can we affect the position of the light post to the area that does not have the house? Would that be an amenable arrangement? We have to reposition the light post, right? Todd Hoffman: Well we talked about it. The light posts are in the street easement. You could move them over to get the trail as close to the lot line as possible. You could not move the light post and utility box and still build this trail within the 15 foot easement. It's just a matter of how close you want to get that trail to the lot line right there at the end of the cul-de-sac. City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Councilman Ayotte: Yeah I know Mrs. Kreisler had mentioned, and I don't know if any other residents have an issue with that. Barbara Kreisler: ...utility boxes... Councilman Ayotte: How do we know, in the distribution that you made the community you blanketed it with a letter stating what the intent of the city was. Todd Hoffman: The same council received this evening. The same item you received this evening was mailed. Councilman Ayotte: It was the same thing. Todd Hoffman: Yes. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. Mrs. Kreisler had mentioned that there were some number that didn't get the letter and some got it on a Friday and some got it today. Do you have a sense or maybe some percentage of folks that did not know about it? Whether they did or not, I don't know if it is an issue but. Todd Hoffman: It was mailed on Thursday, the same day we received the drawing from the consultant. It's mailed to a larger area. I don't know if it covered the entire northern most part of Fox Chase but it certainly is a more expansive mailing than we traditionally would do, or we would need to do. Councilman Ayotte: That was the question. So you did more than you typically do? Okay. Audience: I live next door to the Hedlund's and I didn't receive a letter. Audience: ...at the post office either. Mine was just a flyer in my box. Audience: And I did not either. Councilman Ayotte: I didn't understand everything that the lady was addressing with respect to a covenant. Does that have an impact one way or the other? That covenant that was signed in 1983 with, that dies in 2003. Do you know about that covenant? Todd Hoffman: I'm aware of the covenants. I think all she was trying to make a point of is that not everything in the covenant was followed so why we would want to follow this trail easement, and I don't know if that's relevant. Councilman Ayotte: It's like when I commit a sin, should he commit a sin type of a thing. Todd Hoffman: Two wrongs don't make a right. Councilman Ayotte: With the bid process, what is the time line? If we were to approve tonight, you would solicit bids and the turn time would be? Todd Hoffman: 45 days. Well 30 to 45 days to get it out on the street so it's going to be a fall construction. 10 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Councilman Ayotte: What would be the adverse affect of tabling a decision until the next council meeting to give the resident more opportunity to take a look at it? And I will say too, as a matter of record, I do agree with the stairs at this point as I see it. I don't think there's an option. I don't like the fact that it jacks the price up but I don't know if we have another option with what I've seen at this point. And the second question, have we conducted a survey in that area? And if we haven't, will we conduct a survey? Todd Hoffman: We conducted preliminary surveys to allow us to get to this schedule of a drawing. If we want to invest more money, I talked to the surveyor today who is ready to go and conduct the full survey with elevations and so we can prepare a more conclusive drawings for the City Council. $1,500 bucks. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. That's all the questions I've got. Acting Mayor Labatt: Craig. Councilman Peterson: Todd, are bicycles and the like going down that trail now that you're aware of? Todd Hoffman: Sure. Sure. But they're going. Audience: It's woods. Todd Hoffman: They're going down Mohawk. Barbara Kreisler: Yeah, they're not going down the hill. Todd Hoffman: No, they're going this way... They're not going this way unless a mountain biker randomly goes that way. Councilman Peterson: Okay. Yeah, I think where I'm at is, I guess I'll alter, then with my question just offer my just general comments. You know I'm leery to approve something that, you know we've been sitting on this for quite some time trying to solicit feedback and support from the people who live around that. For us to decide tonight sounds a little bit premature because I think the goal is, we want to get people involved and happy with that decision. I don't know if we're there yet. My concern is we build steps in there that it will defeat the use of bicycles going down there and baby carriages, etc, etc. Strollers you know won't be able to use it as readily as otherwise but, so I guess I'm just saying, should we ask the question. Is it appropriate to put a trail there based upon what we now have as more information? I guess that's a basic question that I've got. Should we spend $50,000 on a trail that may or may not be used that much? So there you go. Acting Mayor Labatt: Gary. Councilman Boyle: Well I don't have all the history nor did I hear this but everything I hear tonight says that the majority of the people that live near that trail definitely do not want it. They had a very short time frame. Quite a few of the people did not get the notice by the postal service. I don't know who might have put it in your mailbox. I question if it's really a benefit at this stage, and only because my lack of historic knowledge I would venture to table it until we have more information. 11 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay. Councilman Ayotte: Can I make one additional? Acting Mayor Labatt: Sure. Councilman Ayotte: I think if we do table it, it would not necessarily be to get more information with possibly the option of exercising a survey to see if something other than the stairs could be put in. I don't think they can. But consider that and the next time it comes to council in two weeks would be the way I would formulate a motion, that if we don't act on it at that point, it's killed forever. Because we're experiencing indirect costs. We keep on playing the same record and record over and over again so we look at it. The community has an opportunity to cut on it. We take Councilman Peterson's assessment in terms of whether or not grade can be affected in another fashion, and then we move for sure. Or kill it. I don't want it to come up to the stands again. Acting Mayor Labatt: Todd, if you were to go with just the trail from Lake Point to Mohawk and take out that other L, what's your cost estimate on that? Todd Hoffman: Well it'd be reduced significantly. Go down by the stairs $27,000 and the asphalt costs would go down significantly so you're closer to $15,000 or $20,000. Probably less than that. Councilman Boyle: Todd, in past meetings have there been quite a few people in support of this trail from the area? Todd Hoffman: Well sure. Generally the folks that supported out there but the supporters are, well at the last council meeting you received all the letters from people who supported it and those who, generally everybody supports it. Some of the ones that are closer to it and affected by it will have a closer proximity to it want to make sure... Audience: We want our access but it doesn't have to be that particular way. Acting Mayor Labatt: I guess I'm kind of going to jump on Craig's shoulders on this one and look at, based upon the cost at this point, maybe we just put the trail from Lake Point to Mohawk is what I'm looking at. But I mean I'm okay with tabling it Bob for 2 weeks and getting your questions answered. Councilman Ayotte: But then 2 weeks we make a decision, that's it. So anybody wanting input better get to it in that period of time. Barbara Kreisler: Will I have input...with the neighborhood involved? Councilman Ayotte: Well I think Mr. Hoffman, who has really enjoyed this particular project, should probably be the one put on the dime. Barbara Kreisler: Can I clarify the residents that want the path did not know that the path they're walking on is not the proposed path. It's all...and when they saw how it impacted us, they didn't care as long as they had an access, but they don't want it to take up my yard. 12 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Councilman Ayotte: There's a window of opportunity here for the community to get something and there's a window of opportunity for the council to save some money. And this poor guy I'm surprised still has a full head of hair so. Audience: Even when they had the referendum for the trail a long time ago... Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay, can I have a motion? Councilman Ayotte: I'd like to make a motion to table this particular topic for a 2 week period with the understanding that staff take one more crack at interfacing with the community to gain consensus. Councilman Boyle: I would second that. Acting Mayor Labatt: Any discussion? Todd Hoffman: Discussion. I'm not sure at the level that we want to get this thing publicized and a meeting held with the neighborhood that I can get it back here in 2 weeks so maybe we just ought to table it for a month. Councilman Ayotte: I think the community at large has a responsibility to gain the interest of those people. If the folks here have that interest, I think we should employ their assistance to get the community to meet with you. I think you should use them. Acting Mayor Labatt: What's your schedule like in the next 2 weeks? Todd Hoffman: I'll be on vacation next week. Councilman Ayotte: Oh that's it. Todd Hoffman: But we're going to need a month to get the survey completed, the drawings done, a meeting with the neighborhood and hopefully build a consensus so. Acting Mayor Labatt: So what are you thinking Todd? Todd Hoffman: Just a month from now. Councilman Ayotte: At what cost? You're talking about $1,500 for the survey. Any more beyond that? Your staff time. Todd Hoffman: Additional drawings. Audience: I don't understand why you need to do that. Acting Mayor Labatt: Let's not get into this, okay. Thanks. Todd Hoffman: So we're at the first meeting in August. Acting Mayor Labatt: Would that be enough time for you Todd? 13 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Todd Hoffman: Sure. Acting Mayor Labatt: Bob, is that okay with you? Councilman Ayotte: Yeah, but that's it then. We've got to get this thing off the dime. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay, so do you want to amend your motion then? Councilman Ayotte: To the first week in August. Acting Mayor Labatt: Do you amend your second, is that okay with you? Councilman Boyle: That's fine. Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Boyle seconded to table the plans and specifications and authorization to solicit bids for the Fox Chase Trail Connector until the first meeting in August. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 4 to 0. CONSIDER AMENDMENT TO CITY CODE AFFECTING PRIVATE STREETS AND FLAG LOTS, INCLUDING AMENDING DEFINITIONS FOR CONSISTENCY. Sharmin A1-Jaff: Acting Mayor Labatt, members of the City Council. Just a brief background on this issue. Approximately a year ago, during a subdivision application, issues were raised regarding ambiguity in definitions within the city code such as public and private streets, driveways, roadways. Also, issues were raised regarding the use of flag lots and private streets. The Planning Commission requested changes to the city code that would regulate the use and application of private streets and flag lots to give the city additional controls when considering subdivisions containing flag lots as well as private streets. In summary, the amendment that staff is proposing include definitions. We have modified them throughout the city code to be consistent. The other issue which was the flag lots and private streets would be allowed within the agricultural estate district, rural residential, residential single family and R-4, which is 4 units per acre, to be served via a private street only it would require a variance. Anything with a higher density would be part of an overall application such as a planned unit development or a subdivision. It's a fairly simple, yet technical, amendment. Staff is recommending approval as highlighted in the attachment. Thank you. Acting Mayor Labatt: Thank you. Any questions for staff from council? Councilman Ayotte: Yeah I got one. Just one. Acting Mayor Labatt: Go ahead. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. First off, I got this from Ms. Lloyd. I went through it a few times. Largely because I didn't get it the first time and I had to study it a little bit. But after I went through everything that the staff presented, the only question I have for staff to add clarification to these points is on the definition of shoulder under page 2. When we talked about roadway means that a portion of right-of-way improved design ordinarily used by vehicle traffic including the shoulder. So the only definition that I didn' t catch. Acting Mayor Labatt: Which one? 14 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Councilman Ayotte: Page 2. Under Chapter 18. So I don't know. Kate Aanenson: You wanted a definition of shoulder? Councilman Ayotte: Are the parameters that typically, because you defined every other damn thing. I'm thinking that, do we need to identify that also because you have right-of-way and the roadway, where the right-of-way is, and as I understand it the roadway falls within the right-of-way so if you don't have the definition of shoulder, is that clear for right-of-way? Acting Mayor Labatt: I think you stumped us all Bob. Roger Knutson: I understand the shoulder to be part of the roadway. You can drive your car on the shoulder. Councilman Ayotte: My point is, do we need a definition of shoulder? If the answer is no, I'll accept that. I'm just saying that that's the only part of this whole. Roger Knutson: I don't personally see a need unless someone else does. It's part of the roadway. Acting Mayor Labatt: It wouldn't be covered just under normal state statute and it's considered part of the roadway. Roger Knutson: Yeah. If you can drive there. It's a traveled portion of the road. You can only travel under certain circumstances. Councilman Ayotte: There isn't any, you don't see an impact by not having a definition? If the answer, I have no problem with it. Okay. Councilman Peterson: But that raises the question then in the width of the private drive, can you get by with a smaller bituminous and Class V on the shoulder? Is there a minimum width on bituminous? Sharmin A1-Jaff: Yes there is. It's 20 feet. Councilman Peterson: Okay. But can it be 10 feet? Does it say bituminous or does it say 20 feet of the road? Sharmin AI-Jaff: It says paved width. Councilman Peterson: Alright. Never mind. I retract my question. Acting Mayor Labatt: It was a good question though Craig. Councilman Ayotte: Hell, it was better than mine. Roger Knutson: Typically you wouldn't have a shoulder on a private street because of the low traffic volumes. Acting Mayor Labatt: Any other questions Bob? 15 City Council Meeting- July 9, 2001 Councilman Ayotte: No, that's it. Acting Mayor Labatt: Gary, I realize you got this thrown at you on Sunday afternoon, and keep in mind that Roger this takes 4/5? Roger Knutson: As of May 29m the rules changed. Now it takes 3/5. Acting Mayor Labatt: 3/5. Roger Knutson: As of May 29th. State legislature was in action again, as you might have noticed, and it's one of the things they did. Kate Aanenson: But for clarification there is a summary ordinance too though and that's. Roger Knutson: The legislature, although they changed the requirement for how many votes it takes to pass the ordinance, they did not change the requirement for the summary of the ordinance which still takes 4 votes. And please don't ask me to explain why. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay, so one of the votes tonight takes 4/5? Kate Aanenson: That would be the summary of what we adopted. The ordinance changed. Acting Mayor Labatt: This document here? Kate Aanenson: Correct. It's to be published to summarize what we changed. Roger Knutson: Just to point out what the summary is, so everyone's clear. The summary, by state law you have two choices. You can publish the entire ordinance, which certain people in the audience probably appreciate. But it costs a lot more and so the legislature's given us the alternative, rather than publish the entire ordinance, just to publish a short summary of it and say here. If you want to read it, come to city hall. The sole purpose of that is frankly to save you money. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay. So the big vote takes 3 tonight? Roger Knutson: That's right. The big vote takes 3, the small vote takes 4. Councilman Ayotte: That I understand. Acting Mayor Labatt: I just want to make sure that Gary, that you're comfortable. Councilman Boyle: Yeah, I'm not. I came for the big vote. I'm sorry. I hate to do that but there's a lot of questions when I go through. Maybe the simplest way, I feel uncomfortable. You asked me if I was comfortable and I'm not really comfortable because there' s a lot of questions that raises here if this is the right thing to do. Not on this portion. Acting Mayor Labatt: Right. Councilman Boyle: I'm not quite sure what this does when we get all done, what you call the big vote. 16 City Council Meeting- July 9, 2001 Acting Mayor Labatt: What it does is, I'm speaking for staff, it clarifies things and it makes it then consistent. Kate Aanenson: That's the main thing. And then also it requires a variance for those flag lots or private drives so there's more discretion to attach mitigation, reasonable controls in unique circumstances where you might want to have a greater setback, preservation of a tree, those sort of things. Acting Mayor Labatt: So in the event of a new development coming in, say it was going to have a flag lot, they would have to come in and get a variance for that? Where before they didn't. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Sharmin A1-Jaff: Correct. Councilman Boyle: Would it grandfather anybody? That may have already gone through. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, they would all be grandfathered, correct. They're in place. Acting Mayor Labatt: Currently platted development would be grandfathered. Kate Aanenson: Yes. Councilman Peterson: Part of what you were trying to do, and I've had my hands in this over the years I guess. And the real goal when we first started the issue, and the Planning Commission brought up, we need help. What do we do with flag lots? And we felt that the current ordinance didn't effectively address what to do. That we were flying blind at every situation that came up. We couldn't depend upon the ordinance to help us interpret and so it was...the goal was to have a decision that's it's more of a straight line. And what this ordinance does, and the changes to the amendment, gives us a little bit more consistency hopefully. At least I interpret it that way so that's really the goal. Councilman Boyle: These issues, okay. Thank you. Councilman Peterson: Kate is that? Kate Aanenson: Sure. Councilman Boyle: Anything else you'd like to add that would kind of tell me a little bit of history of what's... Craig's comment kind of put it in perspective. Kate Aanenson: I think that's probably a pretty good summary there. Just if you want to add additional controls for whatever reason, based on that specific neighborhood. Whatever seems to be the character of that neighborhood. You have the ability through the variance to attach a reasonable condition to mitigate that. Each subdivision or area would be different so through the variance, there's not a standard in place you can attach it based on what kind of that neighborhood standard would be. Acting Mayor Labatt: Yeah, I think if anyone doesn't mind I'll open this up for the people in the back row that are usually here to ask a few questions. So Mrs. Paulsen, would you like to step up? 17 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Janet Paulsen: My name is Janet Paulsen, I live at 7305 Laredo Drive. And it's not easy for me to talk. I don't know if any of you got our e-mail. Acting Mayor Labatt: Yes. Janet Paulsen: Then I would like to address the issue of private driveway. What exactly does this mean now in code with the new change? Because I think it's still there. It's still being used and it doesn't have any restrictions on it. It's not defined. It has a history. It was originally a private driveway ordinance and now it was changed to private street. However when they changed it to private street, they didn't address in Chapter 20 that the private drive is requiring a 20 foot, or currently now a 10 foot side yard setback and also a 100 foot frontage. It should have been applied to private streets but it was ignored. Now they're applying that to private driveways as was done in the Igel issue. I still maintain there's no such thing in code as private driveways but this change legitimizes it. I'd like to see you discuss that because that essentially adds more access in smaller areas and it ignores the shoreline code of a 20 foot setback from a street, whether it's private street or public street. It's supposed to be in a 30 foot easement, but now code does not say anything that it has to be in a 30 foot easement so what's going on? I guess that's all I have to say. Acting Mayor Labatt: Thanks Jan. Kate, will you care to respond? Councilman Ayotte: Put your mic closer to you okay? Kate Aanenson: I honestly don't understand the question. We didn't change any of that. Councilman Ayotte: I'm confused. Acting Mayor Labatt: It's on page 12. Sharmin A1-Jaff: Chapter 18. Councilman Ayotte: Section 187 Kate Aanenson: Oh sorry, Chapter 18. Acting Mayor Labatt: Page 11 ? No Article? Councilman Peterson: What page is it? Kate Aanenson: Let me give you a Section. It's Article III, Chapter 18. Acting Mayor Labatt: Page 11. Kate Aanenson: Sorry, page 11. And then turn to page 12. Turn the page over and the standards. Private streets. If you go to the headings, it says right-of-way width. The heading for private street. 30 feet, and then it gives you on the other heading the road pavement width. Those are in there. That's there. Acting Mayor Labatt: So the 3 that you've got bolded there, or in shadow box, are new or corrections or additions? 18 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Kate Aanenson: Yes. Acting Mayor Labatt: So, it's a private street. Councilman Boyle: I'm sorry Kate, they're additions? Kate Aanenson: Yes. Acting Mayor Labatt: So right-of-way width is 30 feet and roadway width is 20 feet. Kate Aanenson: Yes. Acting Mayor Labatt: And then for the higher density it goes up to 24 feet, correct? Am I reading that right? Kate Aanenson: Right. And then for commercial it'd be the 26 feet minimum. Acting Mayor Labatt: Thank you. Okay, any other? Janet Paulsen: If you'll show this diagram I'll show you the private driveway situation. This is the private street and the driveway goes right on up through one person's property into another. _ Kate Aanenson: The common portion would be, has to be the common portion is the only part that needs to be that way. Janet Paulsen: But because this is a driveway they say they don't need a 20 foot setback. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Janet Paulsen: In shoreland. Kate Aanenson: That was the opinion that was given before. That's correct. Janet Paulsen: So what's the necessity for a private driveway when a private street would do the same thing? Kate Aanenson: The common portion? Janet Paulsen: You don't need a driveway. You come up here. You've got a flag lot that could do that or you can use a private street all the way up to here and then somebody's driveway. Kate Aanenson: Well you'd have an extra, if you had a flag lot you would also have 2 access points onto the street so it'd minimize access points, which might be a benefit. Janet Paulsen: Then you can use a private street. Why would you need a private driveway? If you're going to use a private driveway then put it on that chart of what's required. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay, I think staff' s answered the question. 19 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Debbie Lloyd: Hi. My name's Debbie Lloyd. I live at 7302 Laredo Drive. And I'd just like to point in the, I didn't e-mail you. I sent you a memo. In the memo I pointed out Chapter 18-60, about all lots and I asked you to consider abut is the key. It goes to this issue here. A resident may subdivide and we're really talking about the existing neighborhoods because you have an opportunity to work through these issues when you're developing new neighborhoods. We're talking about tearing through existing neighborhoods and establishing scenarios that weren't there previously. So in subdivision code it says you must meet full minimum frontage on a public street, which would be like this scenario, on a private street, which is this scenario, or you need 30 feet minimum here, which is the definition of the easement. Don't let that go. What's being proposed is really letting that go because that was not recognized this past summer with the Igel subdivision. Councilman Peterson: I didn't interpret it that way Kate. Is that, we're not letting it go? Kate Aanenson: No, their opinion is they don't want that application being used. Councilman Peterson: Yeah. Kate Aanenson: Okay. That's the difference. If you look in the way it's worded on the top of page 16, that's how we, that option is in there. Acting Mayor Labatt: Under letter (a)? Kate Aanenson: Yep, top of 16, (a). And what I understand is their position is they would not like that option to be exercised. Debbie Lloyd: We would like the full right-of-way to be applied on what's considered a driveway and that, when you're subdividing because it's here and you might go further on down, whatever, that at least when you're providing access into a lot you're subdividing, you have 30 feet of frontage. That's what's required by a flag lot and that's the minimum requirement that has been in the code. Kate Aanenson: Well I would disagree with that. I mean the way it's being used in this ordinance is currently in the code. You would like it removed from the code. Debbie Lloyd: You're not using it. Kate Aanenson: That's your interpretation is that we're not using it correctly but that's how it has been used. And I believe that the city attorney made that interpretation also. That we have been using it correctly. Councilman Ayotte: I can't hear you Kate. Kate Aanenson: The city attorney made that interpretation that we have been using it correctly. My understanding is they would like to see that application of that use of the driveway be removed from a potential further subdivision. Debbie Lloyd: No. We'd just like to see you use the 30 foot right-of-way, which is the same as using a flag lot to subdivide. It's the definition of when it's a driveway, which was the original intent in 1990 20 City Council Meeting- July 9, 2001 versus what has become a private street. It' s really technical and it' s just keeping that minimum frontage there for every lot you subdivide. Councilman Boyle: Section 18-60 on lots, all lots shall abut for their full required minimum frontage on a public street is required by the zoning ordinance, or be accessed by a private street or a flag lot which shall have a minimum of 30 feet of frontage on a public street. Isn't that what you're saying? Debbie Lloyd: Accessed by. Kate Aanenson: That's our interpretation of this, that meets that interpretation. It's my opinion that they disagree with that interpretation. Debbie Lloyd: Or is this, are you saying this is accessed by a private street? The driveway? Councilman Peterson: Yeah. Kate Aanenson: That's the semantics part. Debbie Lloyd: Okay. I believe the full minimum frontage should be required on any lot you subdivide. I think that's what the original intent was and I provided support way back when. It was not to break up existing neighborhoods, and we're talking about RSF. Private streets are in the code for PUD's. We're talking about single family residential. We're talking about existing neighborhoods. We're not talking about new development. There you have the latitude to do many things, like you did on the last, the development on Lotus Lake. You changed the setback. You have latitude. But there are many opportunities within the city to subdivide existing neighborhoods and we're here to protect the existing neighborhoods. Let's try to make things right. Councilman Peterson: Mr. Acting Mayor, I think to augment that I think that this is only one tool in which we can control subdivisions. We sent back to the Planning Commission and staff to review how we can tighten up the subdivisions which we haven't had an opportunity to see yet. I think that's more of an opportunity that we need to use than just this situation on flag lots. Kate, would you agree or disagree with that? I mean we talked about it. Kate Aanenson: Yes. Councilman Peterson: It's one of those things it's hard to do but this is only one small portion of us having control over subdivision. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay. Any comments Bob? Councilman Ayotte: I'm confused as hell. I was getting it, but then when Deb brought up that additional point I lost it. I really did. Could you add clarification to that last issue? Could you re-state that to see if I can assimilate the information? Councilman Boyle: Maybe to help clarify for confusion, if we knew, well I'm not still sure what Ms. Lloyd's, how she would change this to read. 21 City Council Meeting- July 9, 2001 Kate Aanenson: My understanding is by allowing this to be, only this portion be common instead of requiring this to be 30 feet, you would therefore prohibit this. Acting Mayor Labatt: If you went a block in. Kate Aanenson: ...30 feet of frontage, it may prohibit this situation. Which would be a required frontage and that's what they would like to see those type of situations... Councilman Ayotte: Eliminate that scenario. Kate Aanenson: Right. Todd Gerhardt: Or make private driveways 30 feet wide and you don't want a 30 foot wide driveway. So if you're going to do this you have to put in a 30 foot driveway, if I understood. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Todd Gerhardt: No? Well then what are you saying then? That's what I was hearing you say. Debbie Lloyd: No, you have to have the frontage. Kate Aanenson: The 30 feet of frontage. Debbie Lloyd: We don't mean you have to put in a driveway that's 30 feet. You can have a 10 foot driveway. That's what we do now. We put in a 10 foot driveway, but it's 30 feet...going in and out. We're not talking about a house that sits on a street like I live on where...can get right into me. We're talking about a short, little private street and then all of a sudden a driveway and you've got an emergency vehicle. You've got the fire truck that was trying to get to this fire recently down here, who can hardly maneuver anymore because of this private drive, this driveway being so small. You've got to provide the turn around. The whole thing. Not just make it a 10 feet...protecting the neighbor who suddenly you don't have a setback requirement for, there was one down here on Pimlico where this street was going right under his bedroom window. I mean there's, it's just not a simple thing but I think the 30 foot frontage is in zoning code. Has been there forever. Roger was involved in drafting all these ordinances. What it does is it provides a measure of some degree of, it's the easement. The common portion is the part that both parties use. Uncommon portion is the portion that's the portion that the one party uses. But that should have some sort of requirement on it. I wish I were an attorney. I could argue this better. Roger Knutson: Just to point out one thing, it's pretty obvious at least to me. If you have a 10 foot wide width of driveway. 10 foot wide driveway and a 30 foot easement, I don't know that it's going to be a whole lot easier to get a fire truck down there if it isn't paved. It's just land. Kate Aanenson: That would be my point. If you have two driveways here...this lot at 30 feet. If it was a neck lot and this lot could be subdivided and it' s got 30 feet of frontage. Debbie Lloyd: Well there's another issue with neck lots. With neck lots or flag lots you're supposed to take the area up the neck out of the configuration on the area of the whole lot... 22 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Acting Mayor Labatt: Let's not, we're combining topics Debbie. And we're really getting, we're getting away from the clouds here. Okay, Kate. Go ahead. Kate Aanenson: I guess what we looked at is we tried to look at this was brought up by a specific issue. We tried to apply it city wide looking at neighborhood. Giving us the flexibility to look at neighborhood characteristics. When the Planning Commission looked at this, we gave them different options and we felt like this, based on the past interpretation over the last 10 years. How it's been applied, and the ability through the variance to look at each individual neighborhood, we felt gave us the best level of control in allowing for those specific cases. Roger Knutson: Just quickly point out that, a lot of discussion has gone into this, what you have in front of you and we've kicked around all sorts of possibilities, the staff did, and it can get incredibly complicated and we decided to eliminate a lot of that complication by inserting the variance requirement to try to look at each individual situation and impose reasonable conditions and determine whether a variance is justified rather than write a book covering every situation that could occur. Because there's a myriad of situations where this could occur and some will work and some probably won't work. Councilman Ayotte: I don't want to lose the opportunity of providing more definition, so that's why I'm worried about not addressing this tonight. And is there a way that, now with respect to the variance language, that is, you addressed it earlier Kate. Kate Aanenson: The application for a variance is for a flag lot or for private streets. Councilman Ayotte: Private street. Kate Aanenson: For both. Janet Paulsen: But there's no variance required for a private driveway easement. Kate Aanenson: That's correct. Councilman Ayotte: That's true Kate? Kate Aanenson: Yes. There isn't right now and we're not recommending changing this. Acting Mayor Labatt: Why is that? Roger Knutson: Just so we're clear what we're talking about. Virtually every single family detached, not every one, but virtually every single detached home has a driveway. I know I have one to my house. I'm sure most of you do. We wouldn't want everyone to go through the process of getting, I hope, a variance for every single family driveway in town. Acting Mayor Labatt: True. Okay. Any questions? Comments? Councilman Peterson: Yeah, I'm comfortable the way it is. I think some interesting comments were brought up all around the table I think that at the end of the day you have to make a decision and staff feels as though this is assimilation of numerous years of making decisions and I think clarifying the rationale for those decisions so, you know they're the ones that are going to have to administer this and the Planning Commission along with them are interpreting it and I'm comfortable moving ahead tonight. 23 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay. Bob, anything else? Councilman Ayotte: I'd have to agree with Craig. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay. Councilman Boyle: No further questions. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay. Kate, thanks. And Shar. It's a lot of work you've put into this and the Planning Commission. Thank you so I'll entertain, so if I could get a motion and a second. And so we need to treat this as a separate motion Kate or Roger? Roger Knutson: Yes. Because of the different vote requirements. Acting Mayor Labatt: So, which one do you recommend doing first Roger? Roger Knutson: I think we have to vote on the big one first because all the second one does is authorize the publication and you wouldn't want to authorize publication of an ordinance you haven't approved. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay. So if I could have a motion. Councilman Peterson: Of just this? Acting Mayor Labatt: Yeah. On the cover of the staff report. Amending Chapter 20. Roger Knutson: You're amending many chapters tonight. You had an arada sheet that was just handed out beforehand making, adding some s's essentially. Councilman Peterson: I'd make a motion that we approve the attachment amendments to City Code as presented this evening with all the new language, the shaded and deletions that have been struck through. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay. Is there a second? Councilman Ayotte: I'll second that. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council approve the amendments to Chapters 1, 7, 12, 13, 18 and 20 of the City Code concerning definitions, private and public streets, and flag lots as presented by staff. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 4 to 0. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay, and then the, then I need a second motion for the publishing of summary. Roger Knutson: Correct. Acting Mayor Labatt: That's the little one. So if I could get a motion for publicizing the summary ordinance. 24 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 Councilman Ayotte: I'd like to make a motion to publish the summary ordinance as specified in the previous vote. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay. Is there a second? Councilman Peterson: Second. Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to authorize the publication of the summary ordinance amending Chapters 1, 7, 12, 13, 18 and 20 of the Chanhassen City Code concerning definitions, private and public streets, and flag lots. AH voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously 4 to 0. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: Councilman Ayotte: Did you get a reading on the generators? Todd Gerhardt: I didn't get an update, I'm sorry. Last discussion I had with Kelley, our sewer and water superintendent is that he felt he was going to have problems accessing the site because of the lift in the generator. I asked Kelley to contact the homeowner to see if we couldn't get an easement, a temporary construction easement in that area where they would probably be removing trees anyway. And he was agreeable to contact the owner but I didn't get an update if he proceeded with that or not. Councilman Ayotte: Do you think it's necessary for us to get some information out to that area, justto know what's going on or should we wait for more information? Todd Gerhardt: What I' 11 have is Teresa e-mail the council to update you and then if you want to respond to her from that e-mail. Acting Mayor Labatt: Anything else? Councilman Ayotte: Yeah. With Teresa, is she back yet? Todd Gerhardt: Yes. Councilman Ayotte: She was going to get some update information on the water situation. She had some analysis she was doing with the meters and a revisit to the plan for water treatment. I was wondering if we could get some feedback on that. Todd Gerhardt: How about if we schedule that for a work session in the next couple weeks. Acting Mayor Labatt: Craig, anything? Councilman Peterson: No. Acting Mayor Labatt: I'd just like to take a moment to thank the Park and Rec staff for the fabulous 4th of July festivities they had out here in the front yard, soon to be the new library next year. And for the 4th of July fireworks. I participated in both of them with the family and we had a blast and so I think Todd and Jerry and Corey and everybody else in Park and Rec did a fabulous job this year. It was a packed crowd and the only comments, the only negative comment I heard was the tent was a little too small this 25 City Council Meeting - July 9, 2001 year. I supposed it's kind of hard to plan on the number of people that are going to attend it so maybe we could get a bigger tent next year. Same band. But kudos to those guys at Park and Rec. Fabulous event. Todd Gerhardt: I'll pass it on. Acting Mayor Labatt: And that's what I've got. Gary, anything first time? Councilman Boyle: No, I don't think so. I really had about 30 minutes worth but... Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay, good. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS. Todd Gerhardt: I'm going to be on vacation the rest of the week so if you have anything pressing, contact Karen. She can get a hold of me. Councilman Ayotte: Tell us where you're going. Todd Gerhardt: Boy Scout camp. Thought I was too old for that didn't you? Acting Mayor Labatt: Which one you going to? Todd Gerhardt: Stearns. Up by Annandale and so, other than that we're hoping in the next 2 to 3 weeks to set up the TI:F summit. Update you on Where we are with our TIF shortfall in the downtown and also the McGlynn District. So you'll probably be seeing that on probably your next work session. Acting Mayor Labatt: Alright. One other thing I forgot to mention Todd was, I appreciated getting the e- mail from you the morning after the Chaska incident. Right away. Thanks for the prompt notification to US. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, the last word I had was they have a suspect under custody and that he has given a written statement to the fact that he did commit the homicide so, but the investigators are still working on the issue. Acting Mayor Labatt: Okay. Good. Any correspondence anyone wants to discuss? No? Went a hour and 30 minutes for my first meeting. Can I have a motion to adjourn? Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to adjourn. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The City Council meeting was adjourned at 8:30 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt Acting City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 26 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JUNE 26, 2001 Chair Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Rod Franks, Jay Karlovich, Mike Howe, David Moes, Jack Spizale, and Tom Kelly MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent; Susan Marek, Recreation Center Manager; Dale Gregory, Park Superintendent; Kara Wickenhauser, Senior Center Coordinator APPROVAL OF AGENDA: No Amendments. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Franks moved, Howe seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated May 22, 2001 as amended on page 28 by Mike Howe. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. RECREATION CENTER UPDATE. Marek: Well welcome to the slow period of our finally hot weather and less traffic at the rec center. And not much new going on. We did buy two light fitness cross trainers. Spent $7,000. They're really nice and really hard so I challenge you to come out and actually try it. I was quite challenged just on a 20 minute workout there. It's a nice addition and they are well used already. Todd, where are we at with the rec center sign? Hoffman: The electrical connection. We talked with our electrician and he's coordinating the schedule and so within the next 3045 days it will be hooked up to power and you can look at that beautiful sign all year long. Investment in advertisement well worth, by the time we're done it will be $10,000 for the sign. A couple thousand dollars it will cut up but you can't buy advertisement like that off of Highway 5 so, people should know where we're at. I'm not sure if you've seen it yet but it says Chan Rec Center. It's right there on 5 so. Marek: Other news out of the rec center. After 3 ½ years of me being at the rec center, I'm expecting a major turnover in staff in the next 6 months so that's something coming up that I will have to deal with. As Andy Sauter and John Effertz are moving on with their careers having graduated from college. Jennifer has moved up to Winthorp and finds the commute a little bit long. And Rachelle is looking for a job in senior programming so all of these people who have been with the rec center for some time, and we'll miss them when they do find other jobs so if you have anybody who might be interested in employment at the rec center, now would be a good time to tell them to come out and get an application. Other than that, all of our programs seem to be running great and despite the warmer weather, our expanded fitness class offerings continue to be popular. I don't know, we've hit something there with adult fitness programming and people still seem to like coming inside to do the yoga class, the Pilates Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 class, and the stretching class so those are still going hot and heavy, even though it's summer. So we'll look for quite a bit of participation in the fall and winter coming up. Other than that, things are good. Any comments or questions? Franks: A lot of people are commenting about the sign. So I'm out there with the kids soccer and I'm just getting, people are saying wow, look at that sign. It's like they're noticing the rec center for the first time, even though they might have had their kids up there for sports programs forever so it was a good investment I think. Hoffman: We talked to the school. We were going to put Chan Rec Center/Bluff Creek Elementary but they didn't want a sign. They figured people knew it was a school. Kids come there by bus. You know it's not like they need to find the destination so. Lash: They don't need the publicity. Okay, anybody have questions or comments for Susan? Franks: Susan, just one more thing. With the conclusion of the dance program in May and everything, are they going to be taking the summer to look at space issues again or have those been pretty well worked out or? Marek: There hasn't been any request to adjust the space for the coming year. The class offering has already been determined and the space is already worked out for the next year. For the year after that, we may need to look at something again but for the next year I think we'll be just fine. Franks: Good. Marek: One other note before I'm finished. Elizabeth Cohane is exhibiting some large pieces of art at the recreation center. They're quite colorful. Abstract in nature. Lash: Are they paintings or what? Marek: Paintings. Acrylic on canvas. Like 4 feet by 5 feet. Very large, bold things. They look nice at the rec center. Hoffman: Buy one and take it home. If you have a big wall. Marek: She' s a Chanhassen resident and her show concludes at the end of September. At that point Ms. Kay Faust will have an exhibit and last time we had Kay up, I think we sold every single one of her pieces so we're looking forward to her show coming up in the fall. Lash: And is September the month that we look at the child care program? Marek: Actually there is a short update. Lash: Yep, I saw that. We're close. Marek: We're close. This was year to date. January through June 15th. Expenses of $3,337 and revenues of $2,968 so I'm about $400 off. Coming into the fall I expect that will make up with that as participation grows. And we do cut back the hours for the summer as well. But yeah, it's always just real tight. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Lash: Good. Okay, thanks Susan. Let's also go ahead and do Dale's report up too. PARK AND TRAIL MAINTENANCE REPORT. Gregory: Since the last quarter report that I gave you, and as I mentioned that this spring for us has really been a tough for us and that is the late spring. We had a lot going on. Then. into grass cutting season and that, we had no seasonals or anything like that. We ended up putting a lot of time in. I've only got a total of 7 guys in our department and so we ended up putting a lot of extra time in evenings and that just getting grass and everything kept up with. At this present time we do have our seasonals. We got them started as of June 15th. We have a total of 15 seasonals that work, will take care of the downtown. Out of those 15 we have 3 of them that are retired seasonals, or people that come in and they give us a big hand in cutting grass so they're able to start a little earlier and help out. We were able to get a couple of projects done in the spring right away. The Stone Creek playground Phase II, and that was the help of the residents and our staff, we were able to get that taken care of. And also we do put a new dock in at Lake Ann for the paddle boats for Jerry. And the old dock will be refurbished as soon as we get time and that, and that will go back in to Lake Ann for a fishing dock. So it will be re-used. I also had in there that we were really making an effort this year to get out and spray all our parks. We've had a lot of dandelion problems and that so this year we want to make an effort to get that. At the time I wrote the report we were at about 70% of the parks and I talked to the guy that does the spraying and we're just about at 100% right now. TheY have just about everything sprayed. We still have a few areas and that with thistles and that and...so we're working on that area to treat. We did have a chance to get a hold of the Sentence to Serve people. They work great for us and we had a total of 6 days of use of those guys this year. Usually it's 6 to 8 people. They took care of cleaning our downtown this spring. We usually get them back. That always works real good. But we also had them out at, cleaning around all of our city buildings. We had them out at the Pioneer Cemetery. I mean they did a great job. They completely raked that whole cemetery out for us and we finished up painting picnic tables and doing things and that so they give us a call every once in a while. Want to know if we've got anything to do and like I say, it works great because we don't have to supervise. They have their own supervisor and it works real well. So we've got a good working relationship with those people. The only other thing I have is our maintenance building and I don't know if anybody's been out there to take a look at it. It's coming along good. We're to the point of starting to get things and we can move in and they're hauling in rock today so we can get it blacktopped pretty good. And the road has got to be re-done yet but it's getting close so that's, we're getting kind of excited about that part of it. But that's pretty much where we are at this point. ._ Lash: Anybody have questions or comments for Dale? Franks: Two comments from residents of two different parks about spraying the weeds, and they thought it was great. So I mean you know people are even noticing that. Gregory: Well we're trying to get out and like I say, make a real conscience effort to it. We're trying to, I mean we put signs out that the parks have been sprayed so people know it. We've had a few people call and wanted to know what we're using for chemicals. We give them all the information and they're satisfied with that and just, they're just curious of when it was done and stuff so. Lash: I have two little questions for you Dale. Did you have anything else Rod? Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Franks: No. Lash: I'm sorry, okay. On the old dock that you're re-installing, where are you going to put that? Gregory: We actually right now don't have a plan. We'll work with Todd and Jerry and those and that, right now like I say we're just going to be refurbishing it when we get the time. And wherever they really want it to go in it will go. We don't have a place for it at this point. Lash: Okay. And then on the park maintenance shed. I know the plan includes a bunch of landscaping, some trees and stuff. Do you think that that will happen yet this year or? Gregory: Oh yes, definitely this year. Lash: Okay, that'd be good. Okay, thanks. Anyone else have anything for Dale? Hoffman: Jan, just for the information of the two new commissioners. As front line managers, we have Susan and Dale report to the commission 4 times annually as an informational session and then a time to answer any questions of the commission. Give you an update on those facilities so you can do your job better and then Kara, as the coordinator of the Senior Center, joins us twice a year as a half time employee. And so Kara would be next. SENIOR CENTER UPDATE. Wickenhauser: Thank you. There's not much new at the senior center. I just got back from maternity leave...and I kind of jumped into a busy month of May. We had a senior awareness month, which recognizes Old Americans Month and so we had two special activities a week. That is not normally planned so kind of came back and jumped fight into the swing of things and just feel like I'm... June has also been very busy. As you can see attendance, the monthly attendance tends to climb as the summer months and the spring months come. People are kind of coming back from their winter getaways and what not's so currently I'm just doing a lot of just programming. Trying to keep ahead. I can't believe I'm planning for the winter months already, and it's only June right now so. Other than that, we'll be having an open house on Tuesday, July 3rd when all the activities are going on. It's kind of a good plug and we pull at least, I'd say 5 or 7 new people in a year. That come in and see the senior center and just a good way to have an open door if everyone gets too warm or what not. Have people come and sit in. We'll do lemonade and cookies that day so. Other than that, our trips and our activities have been well attended. Our golfing club is going really well. We've got 19 people that come on a pretty regular basis so, people are pretty active and get out but the weather hasn't been cooperating very much. It's either been wet or too hot so. Other than that, that is all that I have. Lash: Okay. Anybody have questions on the Senior Center report? Okay, thanks. Hoffman: You're all free to go. I know some of you like to stay and listen but, whatever you'd like. APPROVE PARK RULES SIGN DESIGN, LAYOUT AND COLOR. Lash: Okay, we've got 3 options here, correct? Hoffman: Correct. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Karlovich: I had one question. Where do the seniors play golf? Wickenhauser: Red Oaks. Karlovich: At Red Oak. I go there with my kids all the time so. Lash: Where is it? Karlovich: It's kind of, Highway 19, just north of Lake Minnetonka. Moes: It's by Lakeview Golf Course. Lash: I know where that one is. Karlovich: It's the little one on the left hand side. Wickenhauser: They don't require you to be there every week so I mean people, if they can't make it, they don't need to make it where Chaska, you need to be there, a commitment every week so it's very flexible that way. Lash: Okay, thanks. So Todd, on the rules sign. The wording is all the same. These are just the 3 different color choices, is that the idea? Hoffman: Correct. And please double check the wording to make sure, we had a lengthy discussion that evening. I took it directly from the minutes. We weren't talking into the microphones so the minutes were somewhat vague and there were some lines skipped so I believe by going through and picking out the intent of the commission, but there may be some things that you'd still like to discuss. Then we have the 3 layouts. The red, the green and the green with the maple leaf and if you'd like to make a recommendation this evening to the City Council, we'd move that for your consideration. Okay, hand it back to you Chair Lash. Lash: Okay, anybody have any comments on the wording first? How about if we do that before we tackle the color combination. Karlovich: Save the hardest for last. Lash: Yes. Wording. Hoffman: There was a comment tonight from the lifeguards that they're talking as an 'organization, and one of their recommendations back to the city will be to band alcohol from any of the beach areas in the city. They think that' s a contributing, or could be a contributing factor in perhaps, if not these incidents, any future incidents so that's something they're considering. And if we're purchasing 300 signs, if you will consider that. Just talked to a lifeguard tonight. They went through a series of meetings because of the drownings. Lash: Okay, I have one little thing that we can throw out and just see where it goes because I don't even know for sure how I feel but the second one where it says vehicles prohibited from off road travel or Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 parking. I think for me is slightly confusing. It makes it sounds like vehicles are prohibited from parking. Karlovich: Just keep them running. Lash: You've just got to keep driving around the whole time. Drive, drive, drive through the park. So I know it would throw the balance off somehow but maybe we need to separate that into two things or something, or put parking prohibited from parking on grass or I don't know. That is the only one that I see as confusing. Spizale: To me I guess it' s not confusing, because it starts off saying from off road travel or parking. Lash: But we know what we mean. Karlovich: I wouldn't park my car. Lash: See. It's not legalese enough for you is it Jay? Karlovich: No, that's bad. Hoffman: This is bad? Karlovich: No, the parking thing. I think I'd go park out on the street and walk in. Lash: Because you wouldn't know what to do? Karlovich: Yeah. Lash: You just wouldn't park period. Karlovich: I'd go drop my kids off and park out on a city street. Hoffman: Vehicles restricted from parking. Lash: Prohibited from parking. Howe: If you just said parking on grass, that would be more. Lash: Don't you think? Howe: Yeah, I mean it's much more clear. Karlovich: I think you'd have the defense of entrapment with the stalls parking you know. The fact that we painted them and then prohibited it. Lash: Okay, so Jay thinks it's a little confusing too. I didn't know if it was just me. Karlovich: What if you say off road parking or travel, well then I guess. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Hoffman: Off road parking or travel clears it up? Howe: Yeah, I think that might. Karlovich: Off road what? Lash: Park, switch it around. Parking. Karlovich: Then you can't walk around the park. Hoffman: No four-wheeling, don't park on the grass. Vehicles prohibited from parking on the grass is what we' re mostly after. That's what we write all the tickets for. Lash: Right. Hoffman: Vehicles prohibited from parking on the grass. Karlovich: But then they're also prohibited for parking where there's no stalls, right? Lash: Right. Hoffman: Correct, which is true. We don't want them parking there. Lash: But they don't necessarily get tagged for that. Do they? Hoffman: Parking along... Lash: Well you know like when you're driving in the road and you go into the parking lot, there's lined areas but then, you know especially when the games overlap people end up parking along the edge of the grass of, I mean they just squeeze in everywhere and I don't think they get tagged there. Hoffman: If they're on the grass they get tagged. Lash: If they're on the grass, yeah. Karlovich: Does anyone ever think they have the right to go off road? Franks: Yes, I'm assuming that there's already some kind of ordinance or law about, within the traveling not on a designated street. Lash: Vehicles on road only. Franks: So I mean is that something that we even need to address within the park? If the sheriff's catch somebody driving through the park, they' re going to tag them whether that's on the sign or not. Hoffman: Pretty much we tag them for damage to property. There is no ordinance for driving off the road, but you tag them for damage to property. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Franks: I guess my feeling is, and this was confusing when we came up with the wording at the last meeting as well but, if the off, or parking in an area that is not designated for parking is the issue, then maybe that's what we should just address. Lash: Parking in designated areas only. Franks: Only. Lash: But we've had that. Franks: We had that before and that was not effective so. Howe: Well vehicles prohibited from driving or parking on grass. Karlovich: How about parking in stalls only? Lash: That kind of sounds twidley. Karlovich: It's better than the pooper scooper suggestion. Moes: That or do we just expand that one to say, I mean it's a little repetitive however you say vehicles prohibited from off road travel and off road parking. I mean it gets a little longer but it hits the point. Kelly: Or vehicles prohibited from off road travel or non-designated parking. Lash: That's a double negative. Prohibited and not designated. Moes: Well that's what I'm thinking. You expand it a little bit, although...you throw the off road in front of the parking. Lash: So what if we put on grass. Howe: Yeah, on grass covers everything. Lash: Vehicles prohibited from off road. Karlovich: Are out there tagging people? Is there parking along like the driveways? Hoffman: If they're on the grass. It's difficult to park along the driveways without getting on the grass. Most places they pull off on the grass and then they get tagged. Franks: Can we just say parking on grass prohibited or parking in grass areas prohibited? I mean if that's the issue... Lash: Well maybe it needs to be a whole new thing and just take it away from the off road travel. Karlovich: How about vehicles prohibited from grass areas? Franks: Well that covers it. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Moes: Well another option is, we could put meters up and we could say parking at meters only. Lash: Or we could put up a gate and charge two bucks to get in. Howe: Well seriously, do people drive on the grass a lot? Is this something that we see a lot? Hoffman: Driving on the grass? Howe: People cruising around the park to go to a picnic or back their car up. Hoffman: Sure, but that's an honest violation. People know they're doing something wrong when they're driving on the grass. People don't know they're doing something wrong necessarily when they park on the grass because people run out of parking but it' s an ordinance. They get tagged. And so it' s no parking on the grass. Franks: People know they're doing something wrong when they're driving on the grass but they might not be aware when they're parking on the grass that they're going to get a ticket so we need to have that posted. Howe: That's more important than. Lash: Well there's signs all over the place that say no parking. Franks: We're assuming everyone can read. I hear you. Hoffman: No parking on the grass. That's what the signs say, dOn't they Dale? Gregory: I think...say no vehicles, or vehicles prohibited from driving or parking on the grass. Lash: That works for me. Franks: Yeah, but then you're back to the same problem though, driving or parking on grass. Gregory: Well you're saying, no driving on the grass and you're saying no parking on the grass. Howe: If you think about it too much, I mean you don't drive and you don't park on the grass and I think we can all figure that out. Hoffman: You're paid to think about it too much Mike. Howe: That's what I'm saying. We speak English. Hoffman: $300 a piece for these babies and they're going up for 10 years. Howe: Right. It's got to be right. I think you should cover that but I think that gets the message across. Franks: What if you just made two lines, no parking on grass. No driving on grass. Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Spizale: At Bandimere I've seen non-Chanhassen vehicles driving on paths. Kind of cruising around taking a little tour of the...fields. I'm just kind of visiting. Hoffman: That's ~hat we like. Eyes and ears in the field. That's off road travel. Howe: That is off road travel. Lash: How about vehicles prohibited from grass? Franks: No. Lash: No? Franks: Can we get two sentences? Lash: Yes. Franks: No parking on grass. Travel on designated roadway only. Howe: That's nice and simple. Franks: Or driving on designated roadways only. Break it down into two sentences. Spizale: Write that down. That sounds like it makes sense. Franks: Simple but claritive statements. No driving on grass. Lash: And that needs to be first. I mean first after no people in after hours because that's our number one. Karlovich: No parking on grass. Franks: Yes, no parking on grass. Right. Driving on designated roadway only. And don't tell me that people are going to take their golf clubs out onto the streets. Karlovich: What about all the weeds we have? Hoffman: Driving on designated roadways only. Franks: Driving. That's just my proposal. Lash: That's clearer for me. Hoffman: No parking on the grass gets grass in there which is very important. Franks: Yes grass. Be clear. Hoffman: I like that. 10 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Lash: Well plus it ties in very clearly with what it says on every single sign. Does it not say every single sign, no parking on grass. So it's the very same wording. Franks: No parking on grass. Driving on designated roadways only. Howe: ...no parking on the grass, you can say that simply. Seriously. Lash: You can say no parking on grass more simple than that? Howe: No. Than the designated roadway. I like the no parking on the grass. I'm very happy. Hoffman: No off road driving? Franks: There you go. Lash: No vehicles on the grass. Howe: No driving on the grass. Hoffman: Well but they drive on the trails too. Franks: Right, they're driving on the trails so we have to stick to roads. Howe: Okay. Karlovich: I could throw some legalese in there. Hoffman: Vehicles prohibited from off road travel. Moes: Works well with the second one being no parking on grass. Franks: Vehicles prohibited from off road travel. Can you get that in? Karlovich: There's got to be plenty of room. Franks: One line. Lash: Alright. Are we okay with that? Alright, let's move onto the color. Franks: Have you got that Todd? Hoffman: We got that. No parking on the grass goes first. Lash: Yep. Hoffman: Vehicles prohibited from off road travel goes next. Lash: Okay. Comments on the colors. 11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Karlovich: We have made a difference in life. Hoffman: Did we go through the rest? Are we done with the rest? Lash: What? Hoffman: Are you done? Franks: The rest looked good to me. Lash: The rest looked fine to me. Howe: What are we going to do if the lifeguards come back and say we don't want any alcohol on the beaches? Lash: Is that not a change of more than just a park rule sign? Wouldn't that be an ordinance of some sort? Hoffman: Sure. Lash: Okay. Moes: What approval process would that require then? Hoffman: A review here and. Karlovich: Public hearings. Hoffman: Public hearing. Lash: So that would be all city beaches? Or all city parks? Hoffman: It could be either or. City beaches, that's going to be difficult the enforcement issues. They were drinking up on the beach. They were drinking up in the picnic area, swimming at the beach so I would think if the desire of the city as a community is to limit alcohol because of concern of safety, you would limit it all throughout the entire park system. Lash: Okay, let's go to the colors. That's easier. Well maybe not. Karlovich: That's more our scope. Lash: Yeah, specialty. Okay, any opinions on the 3 different layout plans? Kelly: Just a question. Is Option B orange or red? Hoffman: Red. Lash: Oh, because it looks orange. I thought it was orange. [2 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Kelly: I've been told I'm color blind so. Franks: And the background, white or? Hoffman: White. Franks: And on Option A and Option C, also white background? Karlovich: I just feel like I shouldn't be reading this. Very offensive. Hoffman: In your face. Lash: Okay, I'I1 start it out. I like the third one the best. Franks: Can we go with, does it raise the cost substantially to go to color as far as having a colored background and of course a color for the print? Hoffman: Yes. Franks: Okay. Lash: How do you feel Tom? Kelly: C. Lash: A, B, C, okay Mike. Howe: Well I really was a red letter boy and I really think, I'm not going to like the red letters anymore. ...the green would look nicer in the parks. I've finally come around and admit that. Hoffman: So A or C? Howe: Okay, C. Lash: Dave. Moes: I myself like option B. And the reason for that is, I was trying to think where I was over the weekend and there was a sign that was on the side of one of the buildings at a park and, it may not have been in Chanhassen but the sign just blended right into the building. It was the park rules blended into the building and I' m not sure if anyone would have even seen the sign blending into the building so I myself prefer seeing something that stands out a little bit more. If that' s offensive and in your face, but it catches your eye as well. I think it just lets people know that there are certain rules that need to be adhered to and it stands out and I think it can be done in a way that, you know from a positioning standpoint, that you're still able to send the message and not make it look too in your face so I'm with B. Lash: Okay. I like C. Rod. Franks: I prefer C. 13 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Lash: Jay. Franks: I'd really prefer C with a buff colored background. Hoffman: This is a screen print on a metal sign. Franks: But I understand that of course the cost involved in that would not be worth it. Lash: Jay. Karlovich: I like Option C. I think it does a really good job of setting out the park hours which is kind of one of the most important messages that we're putting across here. Lash: Jack. Spizale: I like C. I think it's perfect. Lash: What colors do we have now? Hoffman: Green on white. Lash: Just like this, okay. Okay, any other talking about this we need to get? Hoffman; Recommendation to the City Council. Lash: Yep. So I'll call for a motion. Karlovich: I'll move that we recommend to the City Council Option C as shown in the addendum to our packet here for the new park rules sign for the Chanhassen parks. How many are there going to be? Hoffman: How many signs? Karlovich: Yeah. Hoffman: A couple hundred. Karlovich: For a couple hundred signs. Lash: Is there a second? Howe: I'll second. Karlovich moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council approve Option C as shown in the addendum for the new park rules sign for the Chanhassen parks. All voted in favor, except Moes who opposed, and the motion carried 6 to 1. RECREATION PROGRAMS: 4TM OF JULY CELEBRATION. 14 Park and Rec Commission Meeting- June 26, 2001 Ruegemer: Coming up next week. A week from tonight you're going to be dancing. CVO's coming back again for the 3rd of July. Corey' s been working hard on getting all the details ironed out for that. We were kind of sitting down and going through a little mini-brain sessions around the course of the days here. Making sure that all the details are finalized and Corey's been doing a good job. He's been taking care of all the details and getting things pretty much put into, in line for that. He's been having seasonal staff work and kind of do some projects for him. Other members of the staff working for him so he's going to pull it all together and we're going to have some advertisers. There's been signs put out. There's information going out in the papers and schedule of events around town. The shirts are out. He's been working with sponsors on getting information out to them. He's been working with food vendors and power needs and layouts and working with the Chamber on the trade fair so a lot of that is starting to come together and we've been kind of going back and forth and talking over our petitions quite a bit lately and working out details on that so. I think he's going through it last year, I think it will help him with this year but we'll certainly be around to assist him in every way. He's pretty nervous about it. Going through his first one. All his responsibility so, he's going good. He's been working with the fireworks vendor and a lot of different people so he's going to pull it together just fine so, and we'll have good food too. Hoffman: I gave him the fatherly speech after hours tonight. He was up there working... Lash: Tell him to smile, have fun. Hoffman: Yep. Lash: Remember it's a party. Hoffman: It's a party. Lash: If you're not having fun, there's a problem. Ruegemer: And I have my marching orders that nobody leaves tonight without putting their name on this volunteer list... Howe: I won't be here either. Hoffman: Up north. Howe: No, out east. Kelly: What type of things do they need volunteers for? Ruegemer: All kinds of things. Traditionally the Park and Rec Commission's helped out with the priZe board. The schedule of events everybody had, one on their desk area or chair area. A t-shirt is there for you. Anybody needs a different size, let us know. We can take care of that tonight. Other than that, we're getting ready for the biggest celebration of the year. Lash: I happened to read in the City Council agenda in the paper that, I think it was the Rotary or someone was applying for a gambling license. Is that for this or? No? So it's not for bingo here? No? Okay. Just checking. 15 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Ruegemer: Had a pretty good response from the community organizations about doing carnival games and that sort of thing and I think there' s at least 3 or 4 that responded to that so. Lash: They were interested or not? Ruegemer: Oh yeah. They're lined up. Lash: Like who? Ruegemer: I think South Tonka's one of them. Susie Blake called with Chaska Area Hockey. Tonka United I think is doing one. So we've had a pretty good response to it so. Lash: Good. Hoffman: I think that was St. Hubert's Harvest Festival for the gambling. Lash: Oh, okay. I happened to talk the other day to one of the guys from the Rotary who usually works the concession stand and he said, he was talking about how much beer that they had ordered and how short they were last year and some of the problems they had, so I asked if they were thinking of maybe possibly setting up a different configuration or more pitchers. He said they' re definitely getting more pitchers. And that last year they gave a price break from pitchers, I don't know how many glasses, can you get 5 glasses out of a pitcher or something. Come on everybody. I know you get 5. But you got a price break and this year they're not going to offer the price break but they're going to have way more pitchers available to speed up the. Ruegemer: We're going to have to reconfigure because our tent is 20 feet narrower this year. It's a 40 by 160 versus a 60 by 140. Lash: And you're moving the prize board to the back end? Ruegemer: Back, yes. Back towards the back. It will be kind of set up in the trade fair area to begin with and then once they clear out we'll be back in the back area. Lash: So it will face the band? Ruegemer: Would you like it to face the band? Lash: I would like it because then we, who work could see the band. Moes: At least you'll get the people from standing in the middle. Lash: Yeah. Moes: There's a lot of people that were standing always behind the board trying to see the band and. Lash: Watch the prize board. Watch the band. Hoffman: The tent's 20 feet narrower because we saved about $2,500 bucks. 16 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Lash: Also on the prize board, I'm thinking last year, but I can't remember for sure that we started selling tickets a little earlier, didn't we? And that helped a lot. Ruegemer: Did we have a 6:30 start? A lot earlier than 6:30? Lash: Well what time? Ruegemer: 6:30's on the list. Lash: But you know what I mean, and then the drawing's won't start until 7:00, is that correct? Ruegemer: Yes. Lash: Alright, that's fine. Moes: If I remember right, we always have plenty of help and guidance in regard to staying on track with the drawings. Lash: Yes. But it's just such a mad rush at first. So many people want to buy tickets and then to be drawing at the same time and doing everything to sell tickets first and get the rush out of the way. Ruegemer: Sure, what do people buy? Lash: Usually, you know you get $5.00 or $10.00 worth. A lot of $10.00. Ruegemer: Should a person have $5.00 of tickets already stacked and separated. Lash: That'd be a good idea. When we started early, that's a lot of times we'd go in before we even sold and just start ripping them in the right amounts. It saves a lot of time. Hoffman: Remember, this is the last year for the festival on the front lawn. It will go to the back lawn next year and forever after so. Ruegemer: The petting zoo, the pony rides and the Remax hot air tethered balloon rides will be up on the north side this year. Lash: I talked to the Dippin Dots gentleman down at Art on the Lake. I said are you the guy who's coming to the street dance and he said yes I am. I said well thank you and bring lots. He said okay. I said I've been trying for 4 years to get you up there. Okay, anybody have any other? Kelly: Does that mean you're going to keep the prize board workers well, a stash of those for us? Lash: Of Dippin Dots? Not at $3.50 a cup probably. That's more than beer... Okay, any other things for Corey? No? Okay. Have you been there Tom, to this? Kelly: Yep. Lash: Jack? Have you been up here for this before? The street dance? Yeah, okay. 17 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Spizale: Yeah. Lash: Alright. Okay, good. SELF SUPPORTING PROGRAMS. Hoffman: There's no report in the packet unless Jerry has anything for you or not. Ruegemer: ...keep on with softball has been making up rain outs here. The week of the 4th of July, we don't have any scheduled games but I did schedule days for rain outs so we're making games up next week on Monday, not Tuesday, Thursday and Friday of next so. We're doing that. Fall softball information's going out in the next couple days. Other than that, basketball season will start up again in September so, that's it. Hoffman: I have a couple public announcements. Last evening City Council attended a dedication ceremony at Lake Ann Park, the Lion's Field. It was at 6:15. 3 members of the council were able to attend. Craig Peterson, due to his mobility issues did not come out to the park but he intended he would have liked to. And we had a large gathering of the Lion' s there. They had a picnic planned down at the pavilion that Jerry had reserved for them and we all gathered up at Field #4. Stopped play on the field and the Mayor read a prepared statement thanking the Lion's for their contribution of over $50,000 now since 1996 when they made that pledge of $98,000. Their pledge was contingent upon charitable gambling. Since they lost their charitable gambling they decided, can we do this? Can we continue to make this commitment to the City and they have stated formally that they will continue to work towards fulfilling their $98,000 commitment to the City, albeit $4,000 or $5,000 at a time on pancake breakfast and tree sales. Not $20,000 or $25,000 at a time on charitable gambling so. That was nice to hear from the Lion' s. A great event. They appreciated the council coming up to the dedication. If you haven't seen the great, beautiful monument, the Lion's paid for that as well. It was just over $5,000 to put up that monument there at that field location. The investment in Lion's park or Lion's field has been the installation of the lights and then spectator improvements with the hope that the Lion's at some point in the future sponsor a tournament, Lion's Tournament Softball Tournament, and then the final games, the championship games would be played right there on Lion's Field with the improved spectator seating and viewing from the concession stand. So that bit of business took place last night. In addition to that, the Council appointed Gary Boyle to the City Council. Gary has formerly been on the HRA and the EDA so I thought you'd like to know that. July will be a busy meeting for you with capital improvement discussions for 2002 and the 5 year capital improvement program. I will draw up a notice in the paper encouraging citizens if they have items that they would like to see in the parks, capital items that they either contact the commissioner or send a note to City Hall so, just so you're aware of that upcoming business. Lash: Okay, let's move onto Commission Member Committee reports. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. Howe: Thank you. We had a quick meeting today with the Dave Huffman Race Committee. Congratulations to Jerry because he won an award from the MRPA. The Award of Excellence in the events category for last year's race. Jerry. It said in the letter that I read that they may come here sometime this summer to make a formal presentation before the Council or whatever you wanted to do. Did you read that? Did I just make that up? 18 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Hoffman: City Council. Ruegemer: The August meeting they'll be here. Howe: They're working on more Chamber involvement, the City Chamber of Commerce. The Minnesota Arboretum just gave us their entire race list to send letters to which I thought was great. The people from Americlnn's pulled that off. And the Viking's link continues and that's it. It's coming up so if you haven't started running now, you're in trouble. Lash: I'm in trouble. Howe: That's all I have. Lash: Okay, thanks Mike. Anyone else? I don't think we have any other committees going right now. That's our only committee isn't it? Memorial Committee. Hoffman: We talked about this evening on our tour that there is a grass roots organization starting on the Seminary Fen. If that comes to fruition then a liaison from the commission should be appointed so I'll keep you informed about that. Lash: Okay. I had one I guess, this would be under presentations. We'll move onto presentations. Anyone have anything? Franks: In the administrative packet. Lash: That's administrative packet. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. Lash: Okay, I have a question. Is there any update on anything going on with the round house? Hoffman: I talked with Deanna Bunkelman about 3 weeks ago. The council has been inquiring about that. She stated, well first of all she e-mailed and asked me if she needed to report back to the City Council. I informed her that she did. The council made that a requirement of the neighborhood's efforts and so they have the budget. She said they've made a lot of contacts but she still has to come back and talk to the council about the plan. How they're going to get it done. The contributors. And I haven't talked to her since then. Lash: So she's working on the plan or she has the plan? Hoffman: She has the plan that the city had. She's working on her effort, she was meeting with the contractor that day. I mailed her keys to the building and so I' 11 call her tomorrow and check that out and report back to you. Lash: Okay. If it's possible, I'd like a monthly update since we're on kind of a deadline situation with that. What was our deadline? September, right? So I mean we're already. Hoffman: Halfway there. 19 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Lash: I don't want to forget about it. Okay, anyone else with a commission member presentation? Then we'll go onto the Administrative packet. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Lash: Do you have anything Tom? Mike? Howe: No. Lash: Dave? Moes: On the, just off of the schedule Todd. On the back page of Correspondence. Just, you can eliminate the work number there... Lash: And I just wanted to mention to Tom and Jack that this schedule is set up that if there is a park and rec issue on that agenda, Todd would provide you with the information that you need to be there. And if there's really no burning issues, it's not that necessary for you to go. Okay? Okay, and then I just wanted to thank you Todd. Thought you did a very nice j ob in your letters to Jim and Fred. Very nice. Hoffman: They both called. Lash: And I had one little question for, on the sheriff's report with Mr. Livingston. So it was deemed that he was not the dumper? Hoffman: No, he was calling in. Lash: Okay, I was confused how that happened. Okay. That's all I have. Did you have anything Rod? You had something. Franks: Herman Field continues to be a problem I guess, but really in the administrative packet you'll see in the back plans for the Chan Library. And Todd, were you able to confirm when that's coming before the Planning Commission? Is that July 19th for a public hearing? Hoffman: I wasn't able to confirm that. That's what they're talking about but there's been no submittals made to the planning, community development yet. So Kate is unsure of the exact schedule for that. Franks: Okay. I would just like to encourage everyone to take a look at the plans and this is probably our only opportunity to give comment regarding the library when it goes before the Planning Commission for public hearing so if any of you have questions or concerns or comments as a citizen with some knowledge of park and recreation issues in the city, I would encourage you to keep your eyes open for that meeting. Hoffman: There's a meeting on Thursday night, this Thursday. Isn't that a public meeting? Franks: This Thursday? Public meeting? Hoffman: Correct. Lash: Okay, anything else Rod? 20 Park and Rec Commission Meeting - June 26, 2001 Franks: No. But I would encourage, I've attended two of these public meetings already and they were just very, very enlightening so anybody who is interested in the library should really, really attend if they can. Lash: Okay, thanks Rod. Jay, do you have anything? Karlovich: No I don't. Lash: Jack, do you have anything? Spizale: I don't really have anything. Maybe I've got a question. Have there been any more problems with that Herman Field Park that we visited last time? Hoffman: I think this report was just immediately before or after we were there but since then, I actually drove out there that night. We had the neighborhood meeting with the Sergeant Dave Potts, Crime Prevention Officer Beth Hoiseth and about oh, 8-10 of the neighbors there that evening. Re-hashing some of the same issues. Drove out there that evening and it' s pretty darn quiet that particular night. We're going to do some environmental corrections. Placing boulders at the corners of those sharp drives. They won't be taking those corners, or they' re going to be smashing their vehicles. The light in the back in, the neighborhood would like to talk about this gating system and the commission asked that we conduct that survey. We wanted to have that meeting first and then I'll be mailing out a neighborhood mailing to them talking about those particular issues. They were really hot and cold on that one. Checked the file, the park. The land has to remain as a park. If the City no longer wants to utilize it as a city park, it automatically reverts back to Carver County as part of Minnewashta Regional Park. So same stuff. It's the after hours stuff that really bothers me, and they talked can we close Herman Field at 8:00 p.m. so then if there's problems after 8:00 p.m. they can call immediately because what they see is there's activity going on. Lots of cars and driving but up until 10:00 they really can't call. Once it's 10:00 they call and say there's people down there after hours so. Pretty good core group of people. Some of them are reacting to the problems in corrective fashion. Some are just getting outright negative you know. Don't want it. Get rid of it. Lash: Okay, thanks. Anybody have anything else? Spizale: That's all I had. Lash: That's all you had Jack? Anything else? No? Okay, is there a motion to adjourn? Howe moved, Moes seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 21