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CC 2003 09 08CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING SEPTEMBER 8, 2003 Mayor Furlong called the meeting to order at 7:10 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Furlong, Councilman Lundquist, Councilman Ayotte and Councilman Peterson: COUNCILMEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Labatt STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Justin Miller, Roger Knutson, Todd Hoffman and Teresa Burgess PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: Mayor Furlong: Good evening and welcome to everybody here this evening and those watching at home as well. The one public announcement this evening is, if I'm not mistaken the Dave Huffman Memorial Race is this coming Saturday, and participants are gathering, were you going to say something Todd? Participants are gathering I believe at the American Legion, is that correct? Todd Hoffman: Americlnn and they're bused over to Lake Ann. Mayor Furlong: Americlnn and Lake Ann, and what time should people arrive? Todd Hoffman: The race starts at 9:00 so they should arrive at about 8:00 at the Americlnn. Mayor Furlong: 8:00 at the Americlnn and if they have questions call City Hall and Park and Rec Department. Very good, thank you. CONSENT AGENDA: approve the following recommendations: Councilman Ayotte moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's Rice Lake Manor 2nd Addition, 8590 Tigua Lane, Kurt Miller: 1) Final Plat Approval. c. Approval of Sign Variance for Applebee' s Restaurant. eo Resolutiong2003-75: Authorize Advertisement for Rebidding Minnewashta Watermain Loop, Project 02-08. Approval of Minutes: -City Council Work Session Minutes dated August 25, 2003 -City Council Summary and Verbatim Minutes dated August 25, 2003 Receive Commission Minutes: -Planning Commission Minutes dated August 19, 2003 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Resolutiong2003-76: Call for Public Hearing of a Modification to the Tax Increment Financial Plan for the Downtown Chanhassen Tax Increment Financial District. ho Approval of Temporary On-Sale Beer & Wine License, Edina Realty Foundation, October 11, 2003 i. Resolutiong2003-77: Project Acceptance, 2002 Trail Connectors. Approval of Ordinance Amending Chapters 11 & 14 of Chanhassen City Code Concerning the Discharge of Bows. k. Resolutiong2003-78: Award of Bids, Kings Road Pond, Project SWMP 12-A-A. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0. i(A). APPROVAL OF SOUTHWEST LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT TRAIL AS A SNOWMOBILE TRAIL. Councilman Lundquist: The question I had was around the insurance certificate naming Suburban Hennepin an additional name to be submitted and as you read back through this it basically, if I'm not mistaken, that we agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless the park district, it's officials, everything that goes on with it and also talks about the city being responsible for repairs to the trail and lots of other things in here that seem a little bit, I guess I just wanted an opinion on it. If that's a normal practice or how often we've ever had to act on those repairs or if anything has ever happened before we agree to assume all liability and indemnity for what goes on in a trail that can be used by any number of people that that connects to. The way I read this, it looks like we're taking responsibility for everything that happens within the city limits of Chanhassen on that trail. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor if I may. We've had a relationship with the snowmobile clubs and the Southwest LRT route and they have come in and maintained that for any damage that has occurred due to the snowmobiles. I'm not aware of any expense that has ever come to the City of Chanhassen. The snowmobile clubs, as part of their dues come in and make any repairs that their club members or anybody that rides on the trail should make to that trail. So it has never come back to our responsibility. But Todd, do we have any relationships or agreements with the snowmobile clubs? Todd Hoffman: The snowmobile club, they mark the trail and do any maintenance for grooming. There's never been a damage claim back to the city due to snowmobiling. The majority of the issues on this trail segment are water related. Erosion during the summer and the park district, they take responsibility for those. The city attorney, if Roger wants to comment on the liability issue with the hold harmless agreement, that may be helpful. Roger Knutson: These types of indemnity agreements are fairly common but I'm just going to suggest an addition of some language, and I've just at the beginning of that paragraph I would just say, subject to the limitations and immunities in Minnesota Statute Chapter 466 comma. If you'd put that in there I think that gives us some protection. We just want to make it clear that we're not waiving the caps and immunities in Chapter 466. Councilman Lundquist: So that's on that second page, the Suburban Hennepin Regional Trail system, winter use permit. Is that what you're talking about? 2 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Roger Knutson: It's the first bullet on the first page. The City agrees to defend. So before that you just add the language, subject to limitations and immunities in Minnesota Statutes Chapter 466. And that's a common addition so I don't think you'll have any hiccups with that. Councilman Lundquist: Okay. Got it. Mayor Furlong: Do you want to make a motion with the suggested language or other discussion? Councilman Lundquist: None for me. Okay I would move that we approve the Southwest Light Rail Transit trail as a snowmobile trail. The application with the addition of the language on bullet point one that Roger, we'll have to get the details of that. Mayor Furlong: It was just read into the minutes. Okay, is there a second? Councilman Ayotte: Second. Mayor Furlong: Any discussion? Resolution g2003-79: Councilman Lundquist moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to approve the Southwest Light Rail Transit Trail as a Snowmobile Trail as amended. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0. B. RICE LAKE MANOR 2m~ ADDITION, 8590 TIGUA LANE, KURT MILLER. 2. APPROVAL OF CONSTRUCTION PLANS & SPECIFICATIONS AND DEVELOPMENT CONTRACT. Councilman Lundquist: In the staff packet it talks about that there are still some changes that need to be made. I'm assuming that they're minor but didn't know what those were and before we go ahead and just blanket grant the flexibility to administratively approve, I didn't know if Todd or Matt, Teresa, maybe you can go over just briefly what those changes are so that we know what to expect. Teresa Burgess: I do not know what the specific changes are. Matt has left for the evening so I can certainly get a hold of him if you'd like to table this and come back to it at the end of the council meeting but they are minor. It is a standard phrase for us to put in there. Councilman Lundquist: Okay. So we don't anticipate any major changes in that contract at all? Teresa Burgess: No. It would be coming into compliance with city code and city standards. Councilman Lundquist: Okay. I'm okay with that. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Would you like to make a motion? Councilman Lundquist: Motion to approve item 1 (b)(2), Rice Lake Manor 2nd Addition, approval of construction plans and specifications and development contract. Mayor Furlong: Is there a second? City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Councilman Peterson: Second. Mayor Furlong: Any discussion on the motion? Hearing none we'll proceed with the vote. Councilman Lundquist moved, Councilman Peterson seconded to approve the Construction Plans and Specifications and Development Contract for Rice Lake Manor 2na Addition, 8590 Tigua Lane, Kurt Miller. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS. Conrad Fiskness: Good evening. I'm Conrad Fiskness, 8033 Cheyenne Avenue and I'm here representing Riley-Purgatory-Bluff Creek Watershed this evening. The board at it's meeting last week asked me to come up here and on behalf of our Board of Managers, express to the City of Chanhassen in general and to Todd Hoffman in particular our appreciation and thanks for the opportunity to work with the City of Chanhassen on paying for the bridge that was constructed on a trail on the east, excuse me, on the west side of Rice Marsh Lake. We really very much appreciate that. A simple solution probably would have been to put in a pipe but that would have probably had some opportunity for hydrologic compromise of the Riley Creek at that point, and so we're really delighted that Todd and his group was able to come up with a plan. From our water resource manager's standpoint we're absolutely delighted with it. Last Labor Day weekend I drove my bike down there and I drove across it and it's really a wonderful amenity to the trail system. I think that might well be a mile post or a way point that people will kind of mark the trail system, you know meet you at the bridge or we'll go as far as the bridge so it has aesthetic value in addition to it' s hydrologic value. And if the, a check for $23,750 is sufficient enticement to get you to come out front here, we'd like to, the Watershed would like to have a picture of the fact that you're receiving this check. Todd Gerhardt: We can get him to do it for a lot less than that. Mayor Furlong: Well thank you. I know that was a collaborative effort between the City and the Watershed District and I know there are other projects that we're working on and discussing and it's nice to see our local units of government working together and we appreciate your involvement as well. Conrad Fiskness: We're happy to do it. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Are there any other visitor presentations this evening. Boyd Peterson: Good evening. I'm Boyd Peterson, 9860 Pioneer Circle. I'm representing Chanhassen Snowmobile Club. As the trail coordinator I'd like to thank the council for the approval. It's a pretty vital link for our people in the city, as well as friends that come out to ride with people in the city. To ride to get to the western part. We got a core group of individuals that do the work to lay it out. Got all the signs at my house. Very convenient. It's real close to that area. I'd like to thank Todd Hoffman and Todd Gerhardt for the support that we've gotten for years as a snowmobile club. Thank you. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there anyone else that wishes to address the council this evening? If not we' 11 close visitor presentations and proceed with the rest of our agenda. 4 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 REQUEST FOR A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT AND SITE PLAN FOR A GOLF COURSE LOCATED AT THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION OF GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD AND PIONEER TRAIL, SMG INC., CHANHASSEN SHORT COURSE. Public Present: Name Address Ron Saatzer Kevin Norby Denis C. Oukir Gerald Slocum David Walstad 9450 Foxford Road 6452 City West Parkway, Eden Prairie 9940 Deerbrook Drive 9920 Deerbrook Drive 100'/1 Great Plains Boulevard Kate Aanenson: Thank you. The applicant is requesting conditional use. This property is zoned A2 for a 9 hole golf course. It also includes, the application also includes a site plan review for two buildings on the property. As indicated this site is located on a plat that was vacated as part of the Halla subdivision, located at the intersection of 101 and Pioneer Trail. This application appeared before the Planning Commission two times. The first time it seemed like there was quite a few unresolved issues which the applicant worked hard to address, so they appeared before the Planning Commission at their August 19t~ meeting. Then again on the September 2na meeting and I'd like to just kind of frame up what seemed to the major issues. One was well impact. A letter was given to the staff from the DNR looking at the well impact issues. They're the ones that would regulate that. A permit would be required for that through the guise of the DNR. There was also a concern from the neighbors and the Planning Commission about what the actual impact, whether that, some of the neighbors were deeply concerned about the impacts to the well, and that was further addressed by additional condition that was added by, now again this is outside the Planning Commission recommendations but the engineering staff did add a condition regarding, and that's on the cover report, regarding a hydrologic study. One of the things that for findings of a conditional use, on page 4, if you were to go to conditional use permit, there's actually two criteria. Number one would be, would not be detrimental to endanger the public health, safety and convenience or general welfare of the neighborhood. And number 6, will not create excessive requirements for public facility or services or detrimental to the economic welfare of the community. I think the Planning Commission was struggling trying to get an understanding of what their role was in the well issue. So having said that, the engineering staff just added that condition and even though the Planning Commission didn't put that in there, just for another layer of comfort. Another issue that was brought up was the phosphorus and that was addressed in the condition. The Planning Commission did take that out, that that be applied by a qualified person to do that. Another discussion was MnDot will be putting a road improvement at the intersection of 101 and Pioneer Trail which needs additional right-of-way so there was discussion at that time, that the landscaping that's proposed along those two streets would have to be moved. So at this time the staff's recommending that a security be posted and that that landscaping go in at the appropriate time. In conjunction with that there was a discussion on whether nets were appropriate at that intersection. Those two locations kind of along Pioneer Trail and 101. What MnDot's saying that they'd like to go back and re-evaluate to see if the trees that were in place as a part of the landscaping would be sufficient to mitigate that, so that's still a condition that may need to be mitigated, which will be evaluated in the future. So with those concerns, the Planning Commission after much discussion did recommend approval with the conditions in the staff report, and I did want to make the caveat that that additional condition that was pointed out in the cover letter was added by staff. So with that I'd be happy to 5 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 answer any questions that you may have. Excuse me, I just forgot to mention the site plan real quick. The applicant is proposing two buildings on site. One for kind of a club house. There was a concern that, because it is a septic system, that it cannot be used for commercial purposes. That it wouldn't meet that demand and the applicant isn't proposing to do that at this time but as part of the conditional use we did address that. That there be no commercial kitchen with this. That doesn't mean that they couldn't serve snacks or something like that but there'd be no commercial kitchen with that. And I do have, from the discussion the Planning Commission spent some time on, because it's in an A2 zone, it's not in the downtown core, that we try to make it similar to probably what would be more residential in character so there'd be two buildings. One would be the club house and the other would be a storage unit, which we believe is consistent with what would be in the area so we are recommending you go with that. So with that. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Questions for staff. Councilman Peterson: Kate, just to clarify. There has not been a hydrologic study completed, is that right? Kate Aanenson: No, there has not. Councilman Peterson: And that was, as I recall, one of the wishes of the Planning Commission and staff. Kate Aanenson: Well I think the Planning Commission debated whether or not what their role was and what the merit was on that. I think there was some discussion that was a private issue. They were looking at staff to look at it. I'm not sure there was concurrence so staff did add a condition, if the council felt that was something that was critical. Teresa Burgess: If I could clarify. That hydrologic study is something that we discussed with the Department of Health as being the only way to determine if this commercial well would have a negative impact on the surrounding wells and they did recommend it as an alternative to a wait and see, which was very concerning to the Planning Commission. Councilman Peterson: Okay, thank you. Mayor Furlong: Other questions for staff? Councilman Ayotte: Yeah. We do have a water capacity issue from an overall standpoint, so if, even if they do their own well, doing their own well will have to some measure an effect on the total capacity. True or false? Teresa Burgess: If it is determined in the future, this well is quite a ways away from our's so we should not see any interference. If it is determined in the future that this well interferes with potable use, which would be drinking water, whether city or the residents in the area, their permit would be revoked and we have a letter to that effect from the DNR. Councilman Ayotte: I'm not questioning, personally I like the idea of having the golf course so I'm not really concerned from that standpoint. What I'm trying to find out, irrespective of whether or not it has an effect on potable water. The fact that we have a capacity issue in the city of Chanhassen. If this to some degree would have an affect on that capacity, is that true or false? 6 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Teresa Burgess: False. Councilman Ayotte: Okay. I'm satisfied now, thank you. Mayor Furlong: Other questions? Councilman Lundquist: The, either for Kate or Teresa. This hydro-geologic study, any idea what the, what something like that costs? How long does it take? How involved is it? What's it all about? Teresa Burgess: We have not performed one so I have no experience of cost. It was a recommendation of wording from the Department of Health, and I'm not sure how long or how much it would cost. Their concern was that the other alternative is to wait and see if there's any impact to the surrounding wells. At the same time they do not have any concern that it's likely looking at the well logs. Most of the surrounding wells are not as deep as this one is proposed to be. Councilman Lundquist: So if it was, normally in order to get this well they'd have to get a permit through the Department of Health, correct? Teresa Burgess: They will get their permit through the Department of Natural Resources. Councilman Lundquist: Okay the DNR, so before the DNR goes out and gives them the permit to knock the well in, they're going to look at the aquifer and all the surrounding stuff around there and do all of that good stuff. Would it be normal for them to go and do a hydro-geologic study if we hadn't requested that that be done? Teresa Burgess: No. Councilman Lundquist: Okay. That's all the questions I had. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Is it the expectation, based upon the wording of the hydro-geological study condition that that would be paid for and provided by the applicant? Teresa Burgess: That was the intention and we were trying to address the concern of the Planning Commission and the public that this well may impact the public properties. Mayor Furlong: Because that did come up in the public hearing, or public presentations at the Planning Commission. Teresa Burgess: Correct. The Planning Commission expressed a lot of concern and it came up quite frequently in the public hearing. Mayor Furlong: Okay. There were issues also on traffic and traffic flow along Pioneer Trail and the left turn lane, right turn lane. Could you address that a little bit. Kate Aanenson: I meant to discuss that in a little bit more detail. One of the things that the staff had recommended was the existing gravel road be realigned to tie into this intersection. It is of course sight line. The residents along that street chose to leave it the way it is and the Planning Commission ultimately concurred with that recommendation. Whenever there'd be an opportunity to mitigate issues, we try to do that but there was a concurrence on that. And the City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 other one was lining up this driveway with Foxford Road for the access in so, and that has been accomplished. Mayor Furlong: And with that aligning of the driveway access with Foxford Road, are there turn lanes there or is that where, I thought it was on Pioneer that they were. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, those are some of the improvements for. Mayor Furlong: That they're planning? Kate Aanenson: If you look at the intersection, there will be some tapering down through here and I think that's something that we'll be working with the County on to accomplish that. Mayor Furlong: Okay, and my question is relating to safety here and traffic, both congestion along that road for a vehicle traveling westbound seeking to turn in is going to be more obstructing than a vehicle coming east that's accelerating out of the intersection. They're going to speed up to slow down where someone coming from the east is going to be at speed. Teresa Burgess: Carver County's engineering department looked at this and the recommendation was that the construction of a right turn lane into, a dedicated right turn lane into the golf course be constructed as part of the construction of the new driveway. They did not feel the need for a left turn lane in or for a construction of a through lane at this time. Mayor Furlong: Okay, and is that part of the improvements to that interchange as well? That that's going to happen. Teresa Burgess: No. They conditioned the approval to include a left turn, a right turn construction into as part of this project. That was part of the Carver County comments. Mayor Furlong: From an engineering standpoint and a traffic standpoint within the city of Chanhassen, do we concur with that? Teresa Burgess: I would defer to Carver County on this one because they are doing that larger project at the intersection and have a larger plan and I have not been involved in that discussion of what exactly they have planned at that intersection. Mayor Furlong: The other question that came up as part of the Planning Commission, the process was with regard to the connection to the city's trail system and specifically the timing of this development relative to the improvements at that interchange and I guess my question was, are we comfortable that, if they make a connection to our city trail, they're due to open, if I remember my dates correctly, in the spring of '05. If that sounds right, and it's going to be about that time that they're going to be re-doing that interchange. Kate Aanenson: Right, and that's what we recommended that we take escrow for that. For those improvements including landscaping. Mayor Furlong: Oh so that landscaping would also include the trail connection. Kate Aanenson: Correct. So it'd be built after the road improvements are done and they didn't feel it was prudent to do it twice. City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Mayor Furlong: Exactly. That was my question. And you mentioned landscaping so thank you for clarifying. Thank you. Those were my, I guess a point of clarification. In the staff report on page 15, under the site plan review. The recommended proposal. The bullet numbers skip there between 4 and 7. Were some deleted? Is that just a typo? Kate Aanenson: Yes. Some conditions were probably deleted. It should be. Mayor Furlong: That's fine as long as it's a typo. Kate Aanenson: Yep. Mayor Furlong: The report's complete? Kate Aanenson: Yes. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Very good. Any other questions for staff at this point? Is the applicant here this evening? Would you like to make a presentation or do you have some issues with council? Kevin Norby: I'll keep this very brief. My name is Kevin Norby. I'm a golf course architect working for the applicant, Ron Saatzer. The majority of your questions or comments seem to center around the water issue, and I'll see if I can clarify that. I've had a number of conversations with the Department of Health and Department of Natural Resources, as well as two well contractors, primarily Tim Berquam of Bergerson-Caswell, and I understand that they are also the well driller who has done some work for Bluff Creek Golf Course, Halla Nursery, and I believe the City Engineer indicated that they've done some work for the city as well so I think they're probably highly recommended. But the bottom line is that there was a lot of discussion, both at the initial I think August 19m meeting regarding water. They tabled that and they tabled this issue so that we could further address the questions as to who administers the permit. Who oversees the process. What are the procedures, if there is a problem after the well is drilled, and so at the last meeting we provided additional information. As it tums out the permit is actually applied for through the Department of Health, and I think there' s a letter, a DNR letter that we provided here tonight. A permit is actually issued by the Department of Health, but because this is a project or a well that will pump over a million gallons a year, it is then administered by the Department of Natural Resources, the Waters Division. And so what they do at that point, once we have a permit to pump, they come out. Inspect the well. They do some tests on it to make sure that it's operating properly. They also check to make sure that surrounding wells are not being impacted and there is a process, a legal process for following through if there are problems with that well, reducing the capacity or reducing having negative impacts on the neighboring homeowners or whomever. What we do know, or what we believe we know is that there are two aquifers. There's a shallower aquifer that's in the 200 or 260 foot range, and there's the deeper aquifer which you've probably heard of the Jordan aquifer. That's a large sea of water under there. It is the same aquifer that Bluff Creek pumps out of, and that Halla Nursery pumps out of, and the majority of the homeowners are pumping out of the shallower glacial drift they call it. There are some homeowners in the area who's wells are as deep as 400 feet and are pumping out of this same aquifer. So the letter that you have from the DNR, from a gentleman named Dale Hommet. He's the Regional Hydrologist for this area. He's very familiar he said with this area. He says there are no issues as far as water capacity, water availability with the aquifer, the Jordan aquifer. And he said if for some reason conditions change or we screw up or they screw up, he said there is a process to go through. The name and address and so forth I think are on this letter indicating how to contact those people, and he said if it can't be resolved any other way, he said your well 9 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 will be abandoned, our well be abandoned and we'll be forced to look for other alternatives. So fairly close scrutiny I think. The second comment I'll just make here is that Ron has directed us on our plans with regard to the public trail, to indicate that because of the timing, he is willing to put in the trail from the club house to the right-of-way on Pioneer Trail. See if I can, I guess it's not on, yeah it is on this plan? So he's willing to construct this trail over to the right-of-way. He's asking that the City be responsible for acquiring the permits and the design of that public trail within that public right-of-way. As they did on the north side of Pioneer Trail recently I guess, so he would be willing to post a letter of credit and be financially responsible for the landscaping and the trail leading to...for improvements within the right-of~way. As part of the overall bike trail plan that I think the city has. That's all I have. If you have questions, we'll try to answer those. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Questions for the applicant. Councilman Peterson: You had mentioned that if the well was, needed to be abandoned, you would pursue other alternatives. Do you have any idea what they might be? Kevin Norby: Well it may be a well that is further. They talk about an area of influence so there's what they call a cone of depression. When you drill a well it creates a siphoning effect basically, and if there are other wells in the area which are impacted by that cone of depression, he may require that we drill a new well further from the residences. As it happens in this particular case we believe that our irrigation well will be located here. At the opposite end of the pond from our pumping station. It's possible that we may combine the pump station and the well into one unit and pump directly out of the ground to irrigate. Currently the way we're showing it on our plans, and we're theorizing is that we will actually pump into the pond during the day. We will irrigate out of the pond at night. So one of the alternatives would be relocating the well. Another would be a series of smaller wells, maybe two wells pumping half that capacity. We would be I think at that point open to basically recommendations from the Department of Natural Resources on how to solve the issue, if it were an issue. I will say this that, on the projects that we've done, golf courses in the past, we've not come across a situation where the client has had to do, the applicant has had to do a hydro-geologic study in advance of getting or applying for the permit. And I believe that when I spoke to Matt Saam, he indicated that if the city was extremely uncomfortable with this, that this would be another way to gain some measure of reassurance. But he did not expect there'd be any problems given the distance of these homes and the depth of the well. Councilman Peterson: Okay. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Other questions for the applicant. Councilman Ayotte: Would you possibly know what the cost of such a study would be? Kevin Norby: I don't. I'm again not familiar with that as a pre-condition to applying for these permits. I'm sure that it would be in the thousands. I'd be guessing whether it's 5 or 50, I have no idea. Councilman Ayotte: Thank you. Mayor Furlong: Okay thank you. Any other questions? Okay, thank you. I have a follow-up question for staff. The applicant raised the issue about payment of the trail. As the conditions currently read, is it our, how do the conditions currently read based on our understanding. 10 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Kate Aanenson: The Planning Commission left that condition in. That the trails be constructed. Mayor Furlong: That the applicant would be responsible for building this trail to the intersection? Kate Aanenson: Correct. That was the recommendation from the Park and Rec's department. As a condition for impact. And the Planning Commission did leave that in. The applicant also raised that as an issue at the Planning Commission that he chose, would prefer not to do that. The Planning Commission did leave it in as a condition though. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright, thank you. Councilman Peterson: One more question for staff. Teresa, once a cone of depression has happened, is that repairable through, not through man made power but will it come back? If cones of depression affects the houses in the neighborhood, you know do they have to re-drill? Teresa Burgess: If the well is shut off, the aquifer will recharge. It's a question of how long it takes but it will come back. Councilman Peterson: But it's months or years versus days, I would assume. Teresa Burgess: It varies from aquifer to aquifer and part of that will come when they do the test pumping. They'll look at how quickly it recharges. Once you establish that cone of depression, it does re-charge in the scheme of things relatively quickly. Councilman Ayotte: Say that again Teresa, louder. I didn't hear you. Teresa Burgess: In the scheme of things, in time, geologic time, it's very quick. Mayor Furlong: How long has this water been down there? Councilman Peterson: Isn't it longer than our term is? Teresa Burgess: As an example, we have the western side of town has three Jordan wells in it that do interfere with each other. The cone of depression does reach when one is pumping to the other one, and we typically see recharge within hours. When we shut down the well, does that answer the question? Kevin Norby: If I could, my understanding is that that cone of depression is, it's almost like when your sink is draining, of course the water's being sucked out of the aquifer so there's a depression around that. When the pumps are shut off, that will equalize and recharge and come to it's static level. It's normal level relatively quickly. It's not months or even weeks. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. I see Commissioner Slagle's in the audience. Is there any report or follow-up from the Planning Commission? Is there anything you'd like to add or emphasize as a representative? Rich Slagle: Mayor and council members. I think the only thing that I would like to add, and it sounds like it's being addressed tonight is, and it's not just this applicant but any, going forward with well and water usage, and I think that really, if there is a point to present to you, it's how do 11 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 we handle water usage, especially with what's happening I think today on the way home I heard 'CCO announce this was officially a drought. So that's really it. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. If there's any other questions for staff, I'll bring it back to council for discussion. Councilman Peterson: Mr. Mayor I guess where I'm at with this, I'm still, I do have a water question yet and I guess I'm not unconvinced that we shouldn't do a hydro-geological study because of all the what if' s I' ve kind of heard and concerns that seem to be certainly legitimate. And secondly what I haven't seen tonight is a fiscal impact of moving this to, going non- residential developable area. I don't know if a golf course is, from a tax perspective better or worst. I can make some assumptions but I don't know. Kate, what have we got for timing? Kate Aanenson: The 60 days expires on September 16th. You could ask for an additional 60 days for additional information. Roger Knutson: You can just automatically take the additional 60 days if you want to. Kate Aanenson: Correct. Councilman Peterson: To get more information? Roger Knutson: Yes. Councilman Peterson: So with or without the applicant's? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Roger Knutson: All you have to do is send him a letter saying we need more time to gather, for whatever reason you have and you can take the full 120 days. Councilman Peterson: On the surface I like the project. It's just a matter of whether or not it's appropriate for the water and whether or not it's appropriate from a fiscal responsibility standpoint to our city. And I don't have the answers to either of those tonight so that would be my general opinion this evening. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Other comments? Councilman Ayotte. Councihnan Ayotte: I'll add revenue generation. Even if we war game it and put a series of assumptions down, so not only the fiscal trade-off that Craig's mentioning, but also what's in it for the City. And I know everyone runs around with the shirts with the little alligators on it and so forth is going to love this but in terms of what it does for the city, in the fiscal manner. I go back to the, I'm a little bit, when you call out the word that we've all had difficulty saying, we have to go down and look at hydro-geologic study, I'm somewhat surprised that no one can give me a cost of what that is and it tells me that we haven't done a complete job of getting the information so that this council can make a sound decision so I favor Councilman Peterson's position. I want it but I want to look at more information. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Councilman Lundquist. 12 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Councilman Lundquist: My position, the water and the hydro-geologic, I guess my position is that there are processes, procedures, permits, everything already in place in jurisdictions that are outside of our control. Obviously the DNR and the Department of Health, we have to trust that they're going to do their job as well. Not knowing the cost of something like that, I think it's unfair to burden this particular applicant with an unknown cost. I mean who knows what it's going to be. Nobody in that area, the other businesses, Halla and Bluff Creek weren't burdened with it. It' s not a common practice for golf courses to do these types of things. I understand the concerns. However I think we're over stepping our bounds by putting an unnecessary condition on the applicant when there's already two state agencies, at least two state agencies or federal agencies that will, are in place to monitor and regulate that. As far as the fiscal impacts, I guess I'm looking at that right now as a vacant lot and putting something on there. I understand that things can happen and if we were to bring city and sewer and water out there, that there's certainly a possibility of having some development go on there. I think we could argue back and forth about how, if a golf course increases the value of that land and the ability to develop around it, or decreases it and the other thing to keep in mind is it is just a lease on this property. It's not a purchase so there's always the ability for the land owner to not re-up the lease and do whatever he so chooses on that piece of land so. I'm sensitive to Mr. Saatzer's timing issues on getting some of his grading and seeding and things like that done yet in the next couple of weeks so that he can get his course opened within a year. If we get too far out and the weather tums bad on him, he' s going to lose about 8 months on the process so I think we've done considerable amount of due diligence through the 6 or so hours that were spent by the Planning Commission on it and I think we should move forward and approve the conditional use and the site plan. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. On the, I guess my comments follow similar in terms of emphasis on the water issue. We're including a condition, and Councilman Lundquist you raise the issue, we don't know what the cost or the time to complete that is. Yet what I'm hearing is that the only other option is a wait and see type option, which while all indications are that it won't cause a problem, it'd be nice to know what the cost is. What the timeframe is to complete that hydrological study so we can find out if there's a problem up front rather than trying to address it after it happens, if we have that option. Not knowing what the cost is or the time to complete, I don't know if that would delay the project moving forward in a timely manner or not. There is an issue for a fiscal impact standpoint, I agree with Councilman Peterson. I think there, it's something to look at to the extent that this is a viable use you know. It may be something where the property owner has the right to do this, but from a fiscal standpoint, not only with taxes but also when that area does have water and sewer provided, what the potential effect of that would be from a financial standpoint. It's my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the conditional use permit stays with the property as long as it, the property owner or, in this case, the lessee chooses to do that, but chooses to continue to utilize that. Kate Aanenson: Correct. It runs forever on the property. Mayor Furlong: Okay so, the question was raised and I think it's a valid point, if the lease expires that doesn't necessarily mean the conditional use permit expires. Kate Aanenson: That's correct. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. And I think, Councilman Ayotte getting to your point of what's the benefit to the City? I think clearly as I mentioned we should look at the financial standpoint. I like it from the recreational benefit that it's going to provide the city and I like it from the standpoint that it's being provided to the residents by the private sector. That's what I like about it. This is going to be, I like the concept here and what they're trying to do and how they're 13 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 trying to do it. I think we have to be careful and move diligently to make sure that some of these questions get addressed. I can clearly see from reading the council minutes how prompt and responsive the applicant was in terms of going from the first meeting to the second meeting and how much was improved and all the questions were answered. Whether these other questions with regard to the fiscal standpoint and the water affect or impact can be answered in a timely manner, we don't know yet. But I guess I'd like to at least make sure that we look at it diligently and get the information so we can find out whether or not this request for the study is onerous and burdensome or not. Teresa Burgess: Mr. Mayor and council if I could. Staff had originally recommended a condition that had stated that the property would be responsible if there wasn't determined to be an impact on the neighboring wells, to either adjust their operation to eliminate the impact or to work with the neighboring property owners to mitigate the impact through either drilling their wells deeper or getting them an alternative water source. The Planning Commission rejected that condition and this condition was intended as a replacement for that original. That original condition is much less onerous because it is exactly what the DNR is requiring them to do anyway, and we were just stating it so it would be in the conditions of approval. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Are there any other comments or discussion from the council? Kevin Norby: If I could, is it a public hearing still? Mayor Furlong: No. It's not really a public hearing anyway, just an opportunity to discussion so, but unless there's something sir. Roger Knutson: Mr. Mayor? I just want to point out, the normal well interference process and how it works, just so everyone's aware of it. If the city digs a well, which we frequently do, and it's later learned that the wells that were in existence at the time we drilled were adversely affected. Dried up so to speak because of our action, there's a process through the DNR for the homeowner to go to the DNR, file a complaint. The DNR has a hearing. The DNR determines that your well has caused the other well to fail. You're required to pay the other guy to dig a deeper well. So you essentially have to buy them a new well. That's how it works on the municipal scene. Mayor Furlong: I guess if I can ask, what's the typical process and cost associated with that process? Roger Knutson: Digging a new well? Mayor Furlong: Not the well. The process to get the well dug. That you described. Roger Knutson: For the city it can be costly but my experience as landowner usually go to the DNR by themselves. They can. And the DNR, because what the landowner would do is go to the DNR and complain. Last year my well worked. They put in a new well. Now my well doesn't work. Or they'll just go and complain my well is dried up. Then the DNR staff goes out and sees what's going on. They look at the new wells in the area and they determine, they make their own judgment and then it goes in front of an administrative law judge, and that administrative law judge rules. And unfortunately for some of my clients they've written checks because when you have a big well like a community, a city well, it draws a lot of water and if you have shallower wells in the area, it can draw those down. So they get new wells from that result. 14 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there other discussion or additional discussion? None? Is there a motion? Councilman Peterson: I'd make a motion to table to get more information than we've presented to staff. Kate Aanenson: Just for clarification, assuming that that's the direction you want is impact, how much a hydrological study, timeframe and fiscal impacts. Councilman Peterson: Fiscal impacts. Mayor Furlong: Motion's been made. Is there a second? Councilman Ayotte: Second. Mayor Furlong: Is there any discussion on the motion? I guess a question I would ask, do we have any idea when we might be able to receive those, that information back? How quickly? Kate Aanenson: We'll work as quickly as we can. Mayor Furlong: Alright. Councilman Peterson: I mean I'd like to try to get it to the next meeting. If we can. That's the goal. Mayor Furlong: And I think that addresses Councilman Lundquist's valid issue with regard to timing. Is there any other discussion? If not we'll proceed with the vote. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council table the request for a conditional use permit and site plan for a golf course located at the southeast corner of Great Plains Boulevard and Pioneer Trail. All voted in favor, except Councilman Lundquist who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 1. Kevin Norby: Can we ask specifically what information you're looking for? How much the hydro-geologic study costs? Kate Aanenson: We'd be happy to meet with them tomorrow. Mayor Furlong: Do you want to work with staff on that? And I think they'll be responsive. APPROVAL OF 2004 PRELIMINARY TAX LEVY. Public Present: Name Address Sam & Nancy Mancino Ron Saatzer Chanhassen 9450 Foxford Road 15 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Councilman Peterson: Mr. Mayor, before perhaps we start this. I raised the question earlier to the city manager and we did get some new information as late as this weekend on this, and I don't know whether or not, and we're missing one council person here tonight too, which obviously would be nice to have him hear the same thing that we're hearing. And Todd I don't know whether we have any opportunity. It was a quick conversation in the hallway but if we were to have a special meeting next Monday to discuss this same exact thing, would we meet our timeframes, or what are our options if we have any? Todd Gerhardt: I know the deadline is the 15th of September. The specifics of the 15th, if that means it's got to be in the mail, postmarked, faxed down, what I can get further clarification on that tomorrow. But that is the deadline that has been mandated onto us so we have until September 15th. Councilmember Labatt is out of town until the 12th. He's at training in Des Moines, Iowa so he' s out state right now. I could try to get a hold of him by cell phone to see if he can make the 15th. Councilman Peterson: That may not necessarily be the critical point. The critical point is this is. Todd Gerhardt: To give you more time to. Councilman Peterson: Yeah. Getting this stuff on the weekend, and it was good stuff but a lot of it there. Todd Gerhardt: No I understand. It's a lot of information to digest. We threw at you a TIF issue. We threw debt service, general fund. So I understand the complexity of the issue so. Councilman Peterson: So I'd throw that out to you Mr. Mayor and see whether or not that's viable or not. Mayor Furlong: Roger, do you have any thoughts? The 15m, if my math is correct, as we're going into the, is next Monday. That's 7 days and obviously we won't be meeting by the end of business on Monday. Unless we, the assumption is, if the assumption is we meet Monday unless we met earlier than Monday as well. Roger Knutson: My recollection is, because I've never cut it this close is you have to adopt your preliminary levy by the 15t~. On the 15t~ or before. Todd Gerhardt: Midnight. Roger Knutson: As far as I know, you have to adopt it by the 15t~. You don't have to courier it there so I know if you adopted it at 4:00, I'm rather confident but 100 percent confident that as long as you act by the 15t~. But come the 15th you wouldn't have any more wiggle room. I mean that would be it. So as long as you adopt by the 15th. Councilman Peterson: Bruce, how do you normally send it, just regular mail or you e-mail them or what do you do? Bruce DeJong: Normally I just wend it by regular mail. Technically for everything else related to filing on time, such as your taxes, as long as it's postmarked by the date that it's supposed to be filed, that's considered filed on time. 16 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Roger Knutson: I believe the only requirement is that you adopt by the 15th. As far as putting it in the mail, well you can put it in the mail that day if necessary, but drop copy of the resolution is adopted so I think you can act on the 15th if that's what you want to do. Mayor Furlong: Since the point has been raised, is there any other discussion on this matter? I guess I'm. Councilman Ayotte: I agree. Numbers are difficult as it is and to do due diligence it would certainly make sense to have a little bit more time to study and then discuss down the road. Of course the question is are we all available on the 154. Mayor Furlong: Well we currently have a work session, joint council commission, or meetings with all the commissions scheduled for the 15th so. Councilman Ayotte: But in terms of meeting time, do we have pump something or maybe we haven't considered that. Mayor Furlong: Yep. Todd Gerhardt: Now the joint meetings are scheduled from 5:30 to 8:00. The last one starts at 8:00 so 9:00. Councilman Ayotte: Let's do this fh'st though. Mayor Furlong: Right. Councilman Peterson: I think this is more important, not that the commissioners meetings aren't but this is an atypical situation that I think certainly is worthy of a special meeting in and of itself. Mayor Furlong: Well there are a lot of factors. I mean in addition to the information, and the biggest one is looking at the debt and the projections for debt and the downtown TIF district and how we're going to handle that and that was a lot of the new information we received this weekend. In addition, you know I guess what I would ask, if there's a desire then by the council, that we could schedule a special meeting, I believe would be the correct term, for next Monday evening and we'd work with the commissions to reschedule those meetings. And I guess do we start tonight, ask some questions and give us some time to contemplate? Councilman Ayotte: Start earlier on Monday. Mayor Furlong: So just start on Monday when all of us are here. Councilman Peterson: If we start earlier on Monday and not change the, give ourselves an extra hour to talk about this. Spend some time giving Bruce potentially some more fodder to respond to the questions and more time for himself to respond to our questions too so I mean, I'm open to that. Mayor Furlong: Well we can certainly, would a 4:00 meeting on Monday work for those here? If that' s the preference. Councilman Lundquist: 4:00 for the special session or for the commission meetings? 17 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Mayor Furlong: I think we'd want to address this first. If for some reason this took longer, I'd prefer re-scheduling the commission meetings, but this is the priority clearly from a timeframe standpoint. Okay, and if that's the case then, would we want to start the discussion tonight or just hold it off so hopefully we're all here and we all hear it once and have the same questions. Councilman Ayotte: Well that and we have to digest the additional information so. Mayor Furlong: Agreed. Very good. Councilman Ayotte: So I'd rather postpone it. Mayor Furlong: Do we need to table since it's on a new business item or can we simply postpone and call for a special meeting? Roger Knutson: You can just continue it to the special meeting of, you could move to continue it to the special meeting of September 15th at 4:00. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Is that to be made in a motion or can we just do it without objection? Roger Knutson: To call the meeting it'd be good to have a motion. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Is there a motion to be made? To call a special meeting. Councilman Peterson: Continue the meeting to next Monday. Mayor Furlong: At the special meeting? Councilman Peterson: Yes. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Is that sufficient? Is there a second? Councilman Lundquist: Second. Mayor Furlong: Any discussion then on that motion? If there's none we'll proceed to the vote. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Lundqnist seconded to continue the approval of the 2004 preliminary tax levy to Monday, September 15, 2003 at 4:00 p.m. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0. Nancy Mancino: Will your special work session on the levy be televised? Mayor Furlong: Yes, it will be a special meeting and we will televise it. Yeah, 4:00 on Monday the 15th. Or as soon as the Mayor gets organized after that point in time. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS. Councilman Peterson: Southwest Metro is getting close to being built out. We've got Krispy Kreme is open and it had a phenomenal first week. Culver's is open. There's a strip mall there that's got multiple restaurants opening up in a few weeks. Ruby Tuesdays broke ground so it's, if you haven't driven by for a while, it's a big change. 18 City Council Meeting - September 8, 2003 Roger Knutson: What time does Krispy Kreme close? Councilman Peterson: I don't know that to tell you the truth. I now what time they open. Other than that, nothing atypical from Southwest Metro's perspective. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Other presentations? Councilman Ayotte: From the water treatment standpoint, I'm a councilman who has been interfacing with our city staff and we've packed, I'd just like to mention that we've had some discussion points and events that potentially exacerbate the situation in that our water treatment is basically not only a question of capacity but distribution and also compliance. I would ask this council and I'm sure the staff agrees that we need to expeditiously bring a final point as to what we're going to do with respect to water treatment in the near offering. I'm not going to ask for a specific time line but I am going to ask that we quickly identify a time line and that the action plan would not include the term quote study, and that we identify the requirements and the time line for those requirements with the cost of how we're going to meet those requirements, especially with respect to capacity and with respect to compliance, as a part of that action plan, statements to where we are and are not in compliance and at what risk to the city in those areas, and what is the likelihood of that not compliance. I'd like to state that as a matter of record, in the public record and that we ask city staff to get a mark in the sand. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Any other items under council presentations? Okay, very good. Thank you. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: None. CORRESPONDENCE DISCUSSION: None. Councilman Lundquist moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The City Council meeting was adjourned at 8:10 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 19