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1 MEMORANDUM
1 TO: City Council Members
Don Ashworth, City Manager
Scott Harr, Public Safety Director
1 FROM: Dave Dummer, Chair Public Safety Commission
1 DATE: June 10, 1992
SUBJ: Public Hearing on Liquor License Issues
II At your direction, a Public Hearng was held on May 14, 1992, on
selected liquor license issues. 'Alt the'input from those in
II attendance was supportive of cuErent- ity policies, no suggestions
were offered for policy formulation regarding the number and
location of future licenses.
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I have attached verbatim mintes of the hearing.
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PRINTED ON RECYCLED PAPER
CHANHASSEN PUBLIC SAFETY COMMISSION
SPECIAL MEETING
I MAY 14, 1992
Chairman Dummer called the public hearing to order at 7:05 p.m..
I COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Dave Johnson, Eldon Berkland, Dave Dummer,
Bill Bernhjelm, and Craig Bletcha
I CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Ursula Dimler, Tom Workman and
Richard Wing
1 STAFF PRESENT: Scott Harr, Public Safety Director; Roger Knutson, City
Attorney; and Al Wallin, Carver County Sheriff
I PUBLIC HEARING:
ALCOHOL LICENSING WITHIN THE CITY OF CHANHASSEN-
' Public Present:
Name Address
I Roman Roos 1727 Green Crest Drive, Victoria 55386
Rich Larson 8590 Tigua Circle, Chanhassen
Chuck Tiecle 110512 Windmill Court, Chaska 55318
Daniel J. Herbst 7640 Crimson Bay, Chanhassen
Jim Jude Chanhassen Dinner Theatres
Dummer: I'd like to call this public hearing on selected alcohol issues
within the City of Chanhassen. With us this evening are the Director of
I Public Safety, Scott Harr; City Attorney, Roger Knutson; the Carver County
Sheriff, Al Wallin; and members of our Council. At this time I'd like to
officially open the hearing on alcohol licensing and related ordinances.
This hearing is being conducted by the direction of the City Council to
solicit input from it's citizens on selected alcohol licensing issues
within the city of Chanhassen. At this hearing we'd like to receive public
input on two alcohol licensing issues. One, guidance for public policy
I within the city concerning number of additional on -sale /off -sale licenses
beyond the existing holders of record. And two, guidance for public policy
within the city concerning the location of new or incremental license
holders. We will first have Public Safety Director, Scott Harr review the
existing situation within the city and then we will open up the floor for
comment.
II Harr: Thank you. Briefly stated, this hearing came about as a result of
the City Council's desire to maintain an awareness of all issues affecting
the health and safety of the community. You'll recall that recently the
I Council examined the issue of tobacco sales and it's affect on the
community at large and chose to implement some additional restrictions in
that area. As a result of discussion about whether the City should
continue looking at other issues affecting the community, particularly
during this time of growth, the Public Safety Commission was charged by the
Council with seeking input from the community on the issues that you stated
Commissioner Dummer. That's what has brought us here this evening.
Public Safety Commission Meeting
May 14, 1992 - Page 2
Dummer: Thank you. I'd like to have comments from any of the other
members of the Commission at this time. Any of you. Mayor, do you have a •
piece you want to add?
Mayor Chmiel: I always have something. I guess I just want to reassure
everybody that we're not trying to put anybody out of business. Everybody I
is doing business within the community and it's not the intent for
eliminating licenses but to establish a total number to be held within the
city. So I just want to reassure everybody it's not the intent to lock up 1
your doors and throw away the key. We're here to discuss what we can do
for the future of Chanhassen and what can be allowable within the city. I
guess that's about it.
Dummer: Are there any comments?
Bernhjelm: Dave, we limited it, I guess in your opening comments to two
issues regarding locations and /or additional licenses and I noticed that in
the materials one of the other issues was minimum age of servers.
Dummer: Okay. Roger, can you put it together in about 3 minutes since
you've probably recited it four times over already?
Knutson: Yeah. By State Statute that's something we can't regulate. The II
legislature in it's wisdom has said that 18, 19 and 20 year olds can serve.
So we cannot regulate that.
Dummer: Okay, so it's a St. Paul issue, not here. '
Knutson: Call the Capitol.
Dummer: Okay. I'd like to open the floor for comments. For questions,
comments. We ask that you be brief and keep it to the point of what we're
addressing here and not get carried away with superfluous issues that we
are not attempting to address tonight. When you step up to the podium,
would you please state your name and address or organization if you are
giving expert testimony on behalf of a particular organization. Do we have'
anyone who wishes to speak?
Rich Larson: I can address a couple issues. Hi, good evening. Rich
Larson, MGM Liquor Warehouse. I'm also a resident of Chanhassen. Two
things. One that was just brought up by Mayor Chmiel. Personally, as a
licensed holder in the city of Chanhassen, I never did get the feeling,
just maybe to kind of help you out a little bit, that this was in any way all
threat or an attempt to regulate existing operations. And I can't speak
for other license holders in the city but for myself, I'm here as a
positive member of this group and am attending in the event that there was
some input that I could give you, especially. I would guess that I
probably would have about as much first hand knowledge of the reason that
we're all here and therefore that's why I'm here. A second quick issue
directed to Bill. And to the Commission as a point of reference is that
there was a little bit of interest brought up about the age of server and
server training. My businesses will not allow, even though the State
allows us to hire and allows someone to sell the product that's under 21
years of age, we just have a policy. Although in some cases we have gotten
Public Safety Commission Meeting
May 14, 1992 - Page 3
' ourselves into not back in but we've gotten tested a little bit as to
discrimination but we have as a policy within my companies not ever allowed
' anyone under the age of 21 to sell the product. We have hired people under
the age of 21 to stock the product or to carry the product out to the
customer's car but not to actually make the sale. Those are the only two
' points I've got and again, I only want to stress that I'm available. Any
questions or anything, I'm always around. You can find me so I'm here.
Thank you.
' Jim Jude: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Mayor, Commissioners. I'm Jim Jude, General
Manager of the Chanhassen Dinner Theatres and I would also like to go on
record as saying the Dinner Theatres applauds the efforts of the Council
' and you Commissioners. Both in the cigarette issue, tobacco sale issue,
and as well as the alcohol sales. We remain open to discussions and
whatever way that we can assist and help, we are certainly available,
' willing to do that. I would also like to comment on the age issue. It is
a matter of course that we hire only bartenders that are 21 years old and
older. It does however happen, or occur, in the dining room that some of
the servers, some of the food servers who also take and deliver drink
' orders are under 21. I don't view that as a problem. We certainly have
never had an issue with that. Again, we are open to whatever discussion
you would like to have about that situation. We feel as though many of
' those younger people who do work at the Dinner Theatre are entry level
positions and that we provide a very good working environment and an
environment that leads to responsibility and good work habits. We think
those people when they leave us are very solid employees. Thank you.
Dan Herbst: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Mayor, members of the Commission. My name
is Dan Herbst. I live at 7640 Crimson Bay in Chanhassen. Have been a
' resident here for about 22 years. My primary business is the Pemtom
Company. I'm a home builder and townhouse builder and land development but
I also have three specialty wine and spirit shops. I have one in
I Bloomington, I have one in Eagan and one in Woodbury and I just want to
relate to you some of the experiences with each of the cities. Bloomington
the ordinance is that no limit to the number of licenses and I believe
Bloomington has 80,000 plus people. There are 21 licenses there, off -sale.
I But they have some very, very strict ordinances and operating codes and I'd
be happy to bring those to you from my office if that would be any help to
you. Woodbury does have a limit. Ursula and I were just talking about it.
' I believe they originally set it at like 7 or 8 as the city was growing but
now they have just established that a limit of for every 5,000 population
over 40,000, based on a Metropolitan Council as of January of each year,
I then they'll only issue one license as they reach every increment of 5,000
over 40,000 in population. Woodbury has no limit also and it's a growing
town like Chanhassen. I believe it's about 19,000 there. It's growing
very fast and they probably have the least amount of ordinances that we had
I to contend with as far as getting a license. It was basically going
through the standard police report and everything else but it was a consent
agenda item when they went to approve our license. They told me I didn't
I even have to show up. At Eagan they made a very major issue out of it.
They had a public hearing and they made you realize that when the issued a
license to you, you had something that you cherish dearly. Those are my
experiences in the three cities. We have the same policy as the Dinner
Theatre and MGM in town. We basically will not hire someone under 21 but
Public Safety Commission Meeting
May 14, 1992 - Page 4
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we got into a real bind at Woodbury where we were going into a new center
that had a Target, a Rainbow, a Walgreens, a Barnes and Noble, a Burger
Brothers and Kohls, a Ciatti's. A number of things all opening up at one II
time and we advertised every place. In Ramsey, Washington County and we
ended up, we have one 20 year old lady that was at the University of
St. Thomas and we have her working at the store stocking the shelves. We I
don't let • her go behind and sell because of a matter of our own policy.
When you have a center like that that there's so many people out of a
population of 19,000, it was impossible for us to find a 21 year old
employee to fill that... Those are some of my experiences and I'd be happy'
to work with you. I know if you're on the Public Safety Commission or
Council and you know you can have an unlimited number of licenses it can be
a scarey thing. On the other hand, I've been asked in Bloomington at time
to meet with a group of other liquor operators to try and limit the
competition so to speak and that to me, I have a hard time getting on board
and doing something like that. It just seems unfair to me that once you I
get your license, you want to pull up the ground and not have any
competition. So I think somewhere in there you are just going to reach
some comfort. You've got a difficult job. I'd be happy to help you in any
way I can.
Dummer: Thank you. Apparently we reached everyone who wanted to speak
this evening I believe. I'll entertain a motion to close the hearing at '
this time.
Mayor Chmiel: So moved.
Dummer: Do we have a second?
Bletcha: Second. '
Mayor Chmiel moved, Craig Bletcha seconded to close the public hearing.
The public hearing was closed. ,
Dummer: I'd like to have discussion amongst the commissioners as to what
was offered to us and what we are contemplating and what we plan to suggest'
back to the Council for them to pursue. So anyone can jump in here and put
your issues in front of us.
Berkland: We did do a survey of surrounding communities. It's fairly '
consistent with at least a half of the communities that they tried to
legislate with the allowable on -sale licenses. The types of licenses going
in. Many of them just restrict on -sale future licenses. Just restaurants II
or hotel and motel type situations.' I guess personally I'd at least like
us to look into this issue of somewhat allocating licenses to various types
of establishments. '
Dummer: Mr. Johnson, any comments?
Johnson: Well I was a little bit curious about the one issue of location.'
Especially from churches...300 feet. I was curious how that might affect
the group that leases over close to where the Chanhassen Dinner Theatre is.
Apparently there's no problem but I wonder how much that 300 foot question II
comes into play.
Public Safety Commission Meeting
May 14, 1992 - Page 5
. Dummer: I believe the early discussions were concerning new licenses was
it not?
1 Harr: Yes.
' Dummer: So it would grandfather existing licenses. There was no concern
I believe for looking at the locations that we currently have.
Harr: Commissioner Johnson, you're referring to the church group that's
temporarily meeting in one of the areas about the hardware store and
Milly's, that area.
Johnson: So it was suggested to me, what happens if you go...300 feet.
Mayor Chmiel: It shouldn't affect that.
' Knutson: One thing. Once you've issued a license and the church decides
they want to live within, move within the 300 feet of a restaurant or bar,
that's their decision and their choice. It wouldn't be fair to kick a
business out because someone moved in after the fact. That would...
Dummer: The number 300 is just an arbitrary number at this time that's
' being bandied around? It does not exist in Code anywhere does it at this
point?
' Knutson: 300 what?
Dummer: 300 feet.
Knutson: Oh, no.
Dummer: At this point there is no. Theoretically someone could come in
' and ask to locate within 50 feet of a church or school. They could ask.
One of the issues I see here is, we would like to get a policy established
as a way of guidance to people when they come before the City Council and
I before they invest money and emotional energy in a particular site only to
find out later that it does not meet the Council's vision of what
Chanhassen should be in 2, 3, 5, 10 years from now. And I think if we can
set up these guidelines for the general population, I think it's much
I clearer for people to expand and develop in Chanhassen because they know
where they can site their particular businesses and not fees that it's a
personal turn down if they come in with an undesirable location without
' knowing that anyone would be turned down for that site. So I think that's
a benefit that we can have by identifying what's going on and how we want
to develop Chanhassen.
1 Bernhjelm: Dave, I guess the only thing I would say is I find it kind of
interesting that no, we didn't get any comment with regard to the general
concerns of alcohol availability. It seems that the liquor dealers that
' are here are taking a very responsible approach to the issue. We've not
heard any, as Mr. Herbst mentioned, you know we've got a couple now. I
think that's plenty. We didn't hear any of that. So that's all
interesting I guess. As far as it being a safety issue, it appears to me
that the issues that are before us right now are more planning issues than
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Public Safety Commission Meeting I
May 14, 1992 - Page 6
safety issues. I don't see any real pressing need , although h one of our '
Councilman, Dick Wing is one of our former members. I don't see that the
safety is the predominant issue that's being addressed.
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Tom Workman: Tom Workman, Chanhassen. One of the things and maybe we're
missing something and I can maybe let you guys stay here until midnight I
tonight. When we, due to a sting operation there were some violations of
uncovered of a sale to a minor. And when that happened I don't know that
the City and the City Council really had a process set up to handle what to
do and so the owners of the establishments were kind of brought in before
the City Council and we kind of put on our most stern looking faces to make
sure that they knew we were serious about this problem but I don't know
that we had the wherewithall to do anything or did we have a step by step '
process if they did it again or was this the first time. It felt like we
were kind of lacking in that and it would seem to me that the owners of the
establishments would probably also benefit by knowing exactly what those I
rules are because they were probably uncertain as to really how they were
going to get treated by the City Council or if the City Council felt like
treating them harshly that night or not. But I don't think we had the
I teeth to do that. I don't know if Scott can address that.
Harr: We were pleased at the response from the stores that were involved.
Every store responded, not hostilely but willingly to cooperate and we've I
seen positive changes then. We have as much ability as any other
community, Councilman Workman to maintain a vigilant awareness of the
situation and the Sheriff's office responds aggressively and properly to
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violations. We've seen a change just from that last situation. I think
that promoted good discussion and awareness even I think a stronger
relationship between the stores and the city. It wasn't a negative
situation.
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Bernhjelm: I guess there is a mechansim in place Scott for revocation or
suspension of a license if let's say in the future we were not to get the ,
cooperation that we have in the past?
Harr: Yes. That's an area that we could look at to make even more I
stringent but the City Manager and Council acted quickly on the last one.
We have criminal statutes to rely on. While we could firm it up even more,
that's not a proposal I'm hearing being made by the Commission or Council
because we have gotten such positive response and do have statutes
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available.
Dummer: Craig, you have anything for us?
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Bletcha: No...
Dummer: Bill, can you give me a short little summary of what we thought well
heard here and we'll be taking back with us to wrap up and present to the
Council?
Bernhjelm: Well my brief notes here, I don't think that we heard concerns I
about the issue that we're, I guess the topic of the discussion. We
haven't heard that we have too many liquor establishments. We haven't II heard that we don't have enough. We haven't heard that there's a problem.
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II Public Safety Commission Meeting
' May 14, 1992 - Page 7
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At least from the people that spoke tonight. We have a number of
businesses in town that are in the businesses and residents that are in the
I liquor business that have expressed support for the current state of
affairs in terms of the strict enforcement of the minimum age sales and so
forth. They've all offered to help guide us in terms of things that we
I want to do in the future.
Dummer: Good, thank you. One more comment?
1 Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. Just one more comment I'd like to make. Scott, in
relationship to TH 7 and TH 41. We put in that liquor establishment. We
had some real concerns at that time. Maybe you can address that to the
I Commission as well as the audience and making sure maybe that we look at
that particular part as well.
I Harr: Okay. As I heard the concerns expressed Mayor and add to them, if
there are additional ones. Concerns were expressed about the location of
that particular establishment for several reasons. It's proximity to
I neighboring residents. It's proximity to another store across the highway
and it's proximity to Minnetonka Intermediate School across TH 41. And
those were concerns that really started tonight's meeting by discussing
what effects possibly more applicants might have on the city. That's why
I the Council started talking about where do we want to go from here. As
Commissioner Dummer said, a concern was expressed that night because the
applicant came in for what he thought was going to be a rather routine
I application and quite a bit of discussion ensued. And I believe I heard
the Council state that night that one of the things they would like to see
occur is some more clarity develop for it. License applicants as well as
firming up what zoning requirements there were regarding where such an
I establishment could be. Regarding neighborhoods. The number of stores
around neighborhoods. And again, proximity to schools.
1 Dummer: Yes Richard.
Richard Wing: I'd like to make one comment. Richard Wing, City Council.
I I guess because Eldon and myself did this survey, I didn't want to let it
pass without just a couple of comments being we talked to a lot of other
neighboring cities and Eldon did all the surrounding cities and then I went
on and did a list of from Bloomington down through Golden Valley and
I Burnsville and so on. I guess as I talked to these other cities I found
that we're really not out of line and we've very much in line with
everything. By the way, just this evening, you know understanding this age
I 18 and I guess I'm not uncomfortable with that but really it kind of
surprised me. I use the word commend. I don't know if that's the
appropriate word but that the businesses are in fact seeing a need to kind
I of take an aggressive stand and just the fact that they're hiring 21 year
olds say that the owners and establishments are pretty carefully of
policing themselves and care about what's occurring. So that was kind of
reassuring to hear. I just wanted to point out a couple of things. Just
I strictly for information. Just for your thoughts and planning and that is
as we talked to these other cities. And I talked to the city clerks which
I still don't understand what clerks are in these cities and then the
I regulatory people. But they said do you want to know about our licensing
or do you want to know about our zoning? I said, aye ni ni so here would
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Public Safety Commission Meeting 1
May 14, 1992 - Page 8 '
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come 40 pages from zoning and here would come 60 pages from licensing.
This is regulating, this just happens to be Burnsville. This is just
regulating licenses. Granting of licenses and this is zoning. Where they 1
go and what they are and this one says, you have to have a minimum of 4,000
square feet. You have to do this. It has to be a free standing building
and so on and so forth. This one talks about how much it's going to cost 1
and goes oil and on. So I just want to make a couple comments here real
quick. A lot of them had distances from schools and churches and they all
for some reason used 300 feet. Nobody understood why and I think Roger's 1
explained.
Roger Knutson: If I could just interject. People are copy cats.
Richard Wing: Okay. And that 300 feet was solely for new establishments 1
if they should come in. If a church chooses to be across the street was
irrelevant. Burnsville said that all off sale have to be free standing II buildings and a mile between off sales. That's how they dealt with it.
Brooklyn Park had one off sale per 4,000 population and that number varies.
It went 5,000 down to 2,500 which I think Don Ashworth had alluded to in
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another city. All on sale are conditional use. They're all handled
individually and the minimum license fee in one city was 7,500 just to
apply. Another one that stood out was that in Golden Valley just to apply
for an on sale you had to have a building value at a minimum of three
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quarter of a million dollars so they're trying to get quality in there.
And then all of these that I think we talked to without exception, all new
licenses go only to restaurants now and restaurants were defined, minimum 1
of more than 50% food and then some went higher than that. But minimum,
50% were food so in all cases there's no longer bars or taverns allowed.
There are some grandfathered still but all licenses now are granted only to
restaurants and related to food service. Thank you. '
Dummer: Thank you. Hearing no further comments, this completes our
meeting. Thank you for coming.
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The meeting was adjourned at 7:40 p.m..
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Submitted by Scott Harr
Public Safety Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim I
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