8. Consider Size of Building, 4141 Kings Rd CITYOF
CHANHASSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937 -1900 • FAX (612) 937 -5739
MEMORANDUM
1 TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager
er g
FROM: Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner
DATE: March 18, 1992
SUBJ: Consider Size of Building - Lowell Carlson, 4141 Kings Road
On March 11, 1992, staff, along with Mayor Chmiel and Council members Ursula Dimler
and Tom Workman visited the Lowell Carlson contractor's yard site. The site visit was a
result of the last City Council discussion of this item where it was felt that there should be
an on -site visit to visually see the amount of equipment that Mr. Carlson has to determine
the need for the size of building that Mr. Carlson is proposing (12,000 square feet). The
City Council must determine what size of building should be permitted for storage of Mr.
Carlson's equipment.
The court settlement stated that Mr. Carlson had to provide a building and outside storage
• for his equipment, to be approved by the city, that all of his equipment must be stored
within the building, and outdoor storage and what could not be contained in these- areas
would have to be removed from the site. Mr. Carlson wishes to contain all of the
equipment on -site within a building rather than having anything remain in outside storage
where it can be damaged by the weather. As stated before, staff feels that a 12,000 square
foot building is too large for this location and has recommended that a smaller building be
provided and that outdoor storage be utilized for some of the equipment.
RECOMMENDATION
1 Staff continues to recommend that Mr. Carlson be permitted a maximum building area of
3,000 sq. ft. and a screened outdoor storage area of 2,000 sq. ft. for a total storage area of
5,000 sq. ft. The City Council should state what size of building they are comfortable with,
in addition to the size of outdoor storage that should be permitted. Mr. Carlson will then
have to provide a site plan conforming to the Council's recommendation, which is required
as part of the settlement agreement.
1
�07 PRINTED ON RECYCLED PAPER
1
1
I Mr. Don Ashworth
March 18, 1992
Page 2
1 ATTACHMENTS
I 1. Staff Report
2. Letter from Elliott Knetsch
3. City Council Minutes dated December 9, 1991
1
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1 •
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1
1
1
1
1
1 . .
1
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CITY O g�� w
1
i CHANHASSEN or
,.......
11 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612)937-1 900 • FAX (612) 937 -5739 1
1
MEMORANDUM
TO: Planning Commission and City Council
FROM: Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner ,
DATE: November 26, 1991
0 SUBJ: Lowell Carlson Site Plan 1
On July 10, 1989, the City Council revoked Lowell Carlson's II
conditional use permit for his contractor's yard 1pcated on Kings
'Road. The City then took legal action against Lowell Carlson to
clean up the site of the contractor's yard. The intent of the '
legal action was to have the site cleaned up. The contractor's
yard activity was grandfathered in -and had to be permitted to
remain. After going through the court process, Lowell Carlson '
pleaded guilty to maintaining a public nuisance. The terms of Mr.
Carlson's sentence are as follows: -4
`
1. Clean up all items , on the list by September 22, 1991.
1
2. All vehicles and equipment \stored on site must be
licensed, operable, and not missing any essential parts.
1
--i
. 3. Submit a site plan to the city by September 22, 1991. ,
Within sixty (60) days after the city approves the site
I
plan, Mr. Carlson may have no exterior storage outside a
building or an approved outside storage area.
The City Code now limits the size of an accessory structure in the
RSF District to a maximum of 1,000 square feet. The Code also
prohibits the use of unadorned, prestressed` concrete panels and
concrete block. Since it is the goal of the city to work with Mr.
Carlson to clean up his property allowing him to maintain his
business, the city will agree to the following:
1. A total storage area not to exceed 5,000 square feet. II
The storage area may consist of a building and screened
outdoor storage. The building may not exceed 3,000
square feet. ,
II
Oit
tie PRINTED ON RECYCLED PAPER
I
•
Lowell Carlson Site Plan '
November 26, 1991
Page 2
2. The building may be a metal agricultural type building
but it must have a pitched roof and be painted an earth
tone color. The building shall have landscaping to break
' up the expanse of the wall.
3. The screened outdoor storage must be enclosed by a 10
foot high, 100% opaque fence. All outdoor storage must
' be completely screened by the fence. No storage which
exceeds the height of the fence will be permitted within
the fenced area. The fence must be landscaped to break
up the expanse of the fence.
4. All storage on site must be either within the screened
' outdoor storage area or the building. The existing
storage sheds along the easterly border and all other
vehicles, parts, materials, etc. must be removed from the
site or placed in the screened outdoor storage area or
' building.
As part of the settlement agreement, Mr. Carlson submitted a
I site plan with a proposed building. The site plan proposes a
12,400 square foot building, similar to what Mr. Carlson has
proposed in the past. A 12,400 square foot building is comparable
1 to an industrial building found in the industrial office park. The
building greatly exceeds the size that staff had stated would be
acceptable. Therefore, staff's current position is that the
proposed site plan is excessive and cannot be accepted by the city.
1 Prior to replying to Mr. Carlson with the city's position, staff
felt the Planning Commission and City Council should have an
opportunity to comment on the proposed site plan and state what
they feel is acceptable. Staff is, looking for comments on how
large the building should be permitted to be, keeping in mind that
the site is in a. residentially zoned district.
ATTACHMENTS
1. Letter from Elliott Knetsch dated August 23, 1991, including
list of items on -site.
2. Letter from Elliott Knetsch dated August 24, 1991.
3. Site plan /building plan.
1
1
CAMPBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT & FUCHS, PA.
Attorneys at Law
Thomas J. Campbell
Roger N. Knutson (612) 456 -9539
Thomas M. Scott Fax (612) 456 -9542
Gary G. Fuchs August 23, 1991 .
James R. Walston
Elliott B. Knetsch
•
Bruce A. Olander, Esq. - 71
Attorney at Law;
200 First Street East
Jordan, Minnesota 55352 II
Re: City of Chanhassen vs. Lowell Carlson
Court File No. 78371
Dear Mr. Olander:
Enclosed herewith please find a list compiled from the City's
site visit to Mr. Carlson's property on June 11, 1991. The list
has two parts: 1
1. Items No. 1 through 31 must be removed .from the site or
stored in an accessory building or a screened outdoor
storage area.
•
2. Items No. 1 through 11 must be removed from the site.
By copy of this letter, I am sending the list to Judge
Kanning. Pursuant to the plea bargain between the parties,
'Mr. Carlson has ten (10) days from the date of this letter to
dispute any item on the list If the parties cannot resolve the
dispute, it will be submitted for by Judge Kanning.
Also pursuant to the plea bargain, Mr. Carlson has thirty (30)
days from the date of this letter to submit a site plan t� the
City. Please call me if you have any questions.
Very truly yours, 1
CAMPBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT
& FUCHS,.P.A.
BY:
Elliott B. Knetsch
EBK:mlw
Enclosure
cc: Judge Phillip Kanning
jJoAnn Olsen ,
Yankee Square Office III • Suire 202 • 3460 Washington Drive • Eagan.
AUG 1931
":!Ty OF CHANHASS
Tie following ite ave to be. removed from t site or stored in
an accessory builaIng or a screened outdoor storage area:
I 1. Kerosene, signs, wheel barrows and trailer;
2. Bucket (from backhoe) and miscellaneous pieces;
3. Blacktop roller, .
4. Trailer housing the oil, .grease and ladder;
1 5. Two Toyota "skid" loaders and one white "bobcat ";
6. Barrels and boards;
7. Anti- freeze and other barrels;
II 8. Landscaping dragger, bucket and miscellaneous tires and rims;
9. Two blue air compressors;
10. One rusty- yellow compactor, one orange welder, one orange lawn
mower, one yellow trencher and one blacktop roller
1 11. Red flatbed truck;
12. Pump;
13. "Step Van" used for storage plumbing;
I 14. Boat and Mercedes;
15. Steel rack;
16. Large barrel with fuel oil diesel;
I 17. Used oil barrel;
18. Transmission parts;
19. Material for the assembly of the building will be used when
the building goes up, remaining pieces to be removed;
I 20. One blue van will be licensed;
21. One blue trailer, one red trailer and "Foremans" truck;
22. The "tag" trailer for the backhoe will stay;,
I + 23. Big blue dump truck will stay;
24. Trailer with PVC storage and things on top as well as bigger
"tag" trailer;
I 25. Two tractors and backhoe; _
26. Two trucks (daughter's drive) will be licensed. Currently
have 1990 tabs;
27. Two Bulldozers 450C John Deer, one Ford - tractor, 955 .
Traxadator and blue truck with snow plow all stay;
28. White trailer;
29. Flat bed truck will be licensed;
I 30. Large field with areas of miscellaneous equipment will be
cleaned up;
31. Water tank and chain link fences, snowplows, culverts and
flares. .
I
The following items must be removed from the site:
I _ 1. One blue and white van used for storage;
2. Shingles;
3. Large rusty gas barrel container;
I 4. Fiberglass bathtub units;
5. Batteries;
6. Material for the assembly of the building will be used when
the building goes up, remaining pieces to be removed;
1 7. Blue cab for the semi- trailer with GW 117;
8. Small yellow garage;
9. Green building full of plumbing supplies will be removed when
11 the new storage building is built and the supplies removed;
10. Fishing houses;
11. Garbage pile.
1 .
-1
` i
CAMPBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT & FUCHS, P.A. -
Attorneys at Law
Thom . Cam hell
P
Roger N. Knutson
Thomas M. Scott (612) 456.9542 Fax (612) 456 -9542 I
Gan G. Fuchs August 2.4 , 1991
James R. Walston
Elliott B. Knetsch
Mr. Alec Wilson
(::(;
7080 Kings Road O ,
Excelsior, MN 55331 •
Re: City of Chanhassen vs. Lowell Carlson
Dear Mr. Wilson: 11
I have been asked by Scott Harr, City of Chanhassen Public II Safety Director, to advise you of the status of the case of City of
Chanhassen vs. Lowell Carlson. Mr. Carlson entered a plea of
guilty to maintaining a public nuisance. Prior to entering the
plea of guilty, remarkable progress was made in cleaning up the
site, although there remains a long way to go. The terms of
Mr. Carlson's sentence are as follows:
1. Clean up all items on the attached list by Setpember 22, '
1991.
2. All vehicles and equipment stored on site must be ,
licensed, operable, and not missing any essential parts.
3. Submit a site plan to the City by September 22, 1991. '
Within sixty (60) days after the City approves the site
plan, Mr. Carlson may have no exterior storage outside a
building or an approved outside storage area. '
Chanhassen City Ordinances regarding fill and grading allow
some activities without a permit. If you believe that Mr. Carlson
is exceeding the limited levels allowed by the ordinances, you
should contact the City Engineer, Charles Folch, or Scott Harr.
Very truly yours, '
CAMPBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT
& FUCHS, P.A.
B
• Elliott B. Knetsch
EBK: mlw
• cc: Scott Harr
Charles Folch •
✓JoAnn Olsen
Yankee Square Office III • Suite 217 • 3460 Washington Drive • Eagan/W:041 ; 991 1
:ITY OF CHANHAs .
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CAMPBELL, Y
KNUTSON, SCOTT & FUCHS, P.A. '-��
Attorneys at Law I
Thomas J. Campbell
1
Roger N. Knutson (612) 456 -9539
Thomas M. Scott Fax (612) 456 -9542
Gary G. Fuchs August 23, 19 91
I
James R Walston
Elliott B. Knetsch
1
Bruce A. Olander, Esq.
Attorney at Law ''
200 First Street East
Q2//'
Jordan, Minnesota 55352 4/----J 1
Re: City of Chanhassen vs. Lowell Carlson
I
Court File No. 78371
Dear Mr. Olander:
Enclosed herewith please find a list compiled from the City's 1
site visit to Mr. Carlson's property on June 11, 1991. The list
has two parts:
II
1. Items No. 1 through 31 must be removed from the site or
stored in an accessory building or a screened outdoor
storage area. 1
2. Items No. 1 through 11 must be removed from the site.
By copy of this letter, I am sending the list to Judge 1
Kanning. Pursuant to the plea bargain between the parties,
Mr. Carlson has ten (10) days from the date of this letter to
dispute any item on the list. If the parties cannot resolve the
I
dispute, it will be submitted for resolution by Judge Kanning.
Also pursuant to the plea bargain, Mr. Carlson has thirty (30)
II
days from the date of this letter to submit a site plan to the
City. Please call me if you have any questions.
Very truly yours, 1
CAMPBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT
& FUCHS, P.A. 1
BY: II Elliott B. Knetsch
EBK:mlw II Enclosure
cc: Judge Phillip Kanning
,.JJoAnn Olsen
II
AUQ 6 1991
Yankee Square Office III • Suite 202 • 3460 Washington Drive • Eagan. 1N D5122 I
':!TY OF CHANHASSEf
1
The following items ave to be removed from th site or stored in
an accessory building or a screened outdoor storage area:
1. Kerosene, signs, wheel barrows and trailer;
2. Bucket (from backhoe) and miscellaneous pieces;
3. Blacktop roller;
4. Trailer housing the oil, grease and ladder;
' 5. Two Toyota "skid" loaders and one white "bobcat ";
6. Barrels and boards;
7. Anti freeze and other barrels;
8. Landscaping dragger, bucket and miscellaneous tires and rims;
9. Two blue air compressors;
10. One rusty - yellow compactor, one orange welder, one orange lawn
mower, one yellow trencher and one blacktop roller;
' 11. Red flatbed truck;
12. Pump;
13. "Step Van" used for storage plumbing;
14. Boat and Mercedes;
15. Steel rack;
16. Large barrel with fuel oil diesel;
17. Used oil barrel;
1 18. Transmission parts;
19. Material for the assembly of the building will be used when
the building goes up, remaining pieces to be removed;
20. One blue van will be licensed;
21. One blue trailer, one red trailer and "Foremans" truck;
22. The "tag" trailer for the backhoe will stay
23. Big blue dump truck will stay;
24. Trailer with PVC storage and things on top as well as bigger
"tag" trailer;
25. Two tractors and backhoe;
26. Two trucks (daughter's drive) will be licensed. Currently
have 1990 tabs; _
27. Two Bulldozers 450C John Deer, one Ford tractor, 955
Traxadator and blue truck with snow plow all stay;
28. White trailer;
29. Flat bed truck will be licensed;
30. Large field with areas of miscellaneous equipment will be
cleaned up;
31. Water tank and chain link fences, snowplows, culverts and
flares.
The following items must be removed from the site:
1. One blue and white van used for storage;
2. Shingles;
3. Large rusty gas barrel container;
4. Fiberglass bathtub units;
5. Batteries;
6. Material for the assembly of the building will be used when
the building goes up, remaining pieces to be removed;
7. Blue cab for the semi- trailer with GW 117;
8. Small yellow garage;
9. Green building full of plumbing supplies will be removed when
the new storage building is built and the supplies removed;
11 10. Fishing houses;
11. Garbage pile.
i
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1991
Mayor Chmiel: That total amount of dollars 1
what? Paid to the consultant would be
Charles Folch: Basically our share, the total design fees are estimated at
about $320,000.00 of which the local share is $50,000.00. That $50,000.00 being
split by three communities and Carver County. Eden Prairie, Chaska, Carver
County and Chanhassen. So Chanhassen's actual share is .$12,500.00 of the
$320,000.00.
Councilman Workman: I would move immediate approval of this fine document.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'll second that.
Mayor Chmiel: A motion with a second to sign this document with Barton - Aschman
and Associates. Any other discussion?
Councilman Wing: Workman wouldn't have done that at 7:30. 1
Councilman Workman: Sure I would have. Are you kidding? This is the most
exciting thing on the agenda tonight. 1
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussions?
Councilwoman Dimler: I'm assuming legal counsel has looked at it and everything
is in order. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Just as good as you can get it. I did have some questions but I
think I'm going to forego those. The other question I think that Ursula asked
before is how many other consultants are there that could do this project as
well? Was this just provided to one respective consultant? 1
Charles Folch: This was chosen by MnDot. We really didn't have any control
over that.
Mayor Chmiel: You answered my question.
Councilman Workman: Barton - Aschman has done the whole thing. 1
Charles Folch: To maintain continuity through all the segments of the project.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dialer seconded to approve the Consultant
Services Agreement with Barton - Aschman Associates, Inc. to provide final design
services for the extension of Trunk Highway 5 from CSAH 17 west to Trunk Highway
41 in Chanhassen. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: LOWELL CARLSON SITE PLAN UPDATE, SENIOR PLANNER.
Mayor Chmiel: Let's just if we could, let's just skip a couple of these and 11
let's go to item number 12. Can we? I don't want Mr. Carlson to stay here all
night. He might get a little tired here. If that's agreeable with Council,
we'll move to item 12(a). Paul, are you going to address this?
1
41
1
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1991
II Paul Krauss: Yes Mr. Mayor. This one's got a long history and it's a little
confusing as to what's going on but I3think you'll recall that we've had some
concerns with the outdoor storage on Mr. Carlson's property for a number of
years and it finally resulted in legal action. Mr. Carlson pleaded guilty to 1
maintaining a public nuisance and the Judge handed down a sentence which the I
1 dates are not being adhered to that well yet but I think we'll all working
towards that which includes clean -up of all items. All vehicles and equipment
stored on site much be licensed and operable and he's got to submit a site plan
to the city showing that there's no exterior storage outside a building or
I approved outside storage area. Mr. Carlson attempting to comply with this order
did submit a plan to us. I forget but within the past 2 months. We've got some
real concerns with what he's submitted...square feet. That's larger than the
I industrial building that you just approved on Park Drive by way of scale and we
think it's somewhat excessive in that neighborhood. We developed sort of a
staff position as to what we would find acceptable here but given the fact that
this isn't an ordinance requirement, we wanted to bounce this off of you and the
II Planning Commission so we could get back to Mr. Carlson with a formal position.
Because this may well have to go back before the Judge. We felt that, in fact
Jo Ann's got the conditions, the four conditions. That the building should be
1 no more than 5,000 square feet, which is quite large for a storage building in a
residential area. We think it's quite huge for a storage building in that sort
of an area. That's the total storage area. I'm sorry and the storage area,
they consist of a building. The building is 3,000 square feet so there'd be
I 2,000 feet of screened outdoor storage. The Planning Commission agreed with
these outlines but again we wanted to come to you and get your feel for it
before we officially get back to Mr. Carlson and the Judge with our position. So
II - Mr. Mayor I'll throw it back to you and we're looking for guidance on this one.
Mayor Chmiei: Lowell, did you have something that you wanted to show to the
I Council? ,
Lowell Carlson: Yeah. When this whole thing started out it was to, we didn't
II have all the equipment inside storage. I mean I agreed and what they agreed and
this whole thing has turned into such a God forsaken mess that I don't even know
where we're at myself. Anyway this is all scaled out for this building. Some
of the equipment, this is all, each piece of equipment is scale to size. Some
I of the equipment was not home at the time this guy took the scale and took the
thing down for this particular building. They're trying to tell me a 3,000,
5,000 whatever is...stand outside. I tell you, I'm 57 years old and that last .
. ' snowstorm worked out, with a piece of plastic over my head, snow all over and
I worked with mud before that. Dear Council I am really kind of uptight. I'd
like to have a building. I'd like to live like a human being and be like a
II human being like, Mr....built a big building over here and nobody said anything
about that. You know I just got to the point where I'm too old to fight the
weather and conditions and for somebody to tell me how much square feet I need
to put and the rest should go outside. My equipment gets rusty. Most of it's
II diesel. Won't start. What it costs me for my men to get these vehicles started
and rust and started and froze up and you name it, I'm only asking for the size
building that I deserve and I've always been promised. They went over to Mound
I I and accepted when I tore it down. They renigged on their word. The Planning
Director was over there. She okayed it, Barb. Your building inspector was over
there. They okayed it before I tore it down. I brought it home. They said I
had to have a moving permit then and they've been at this thing, one thing to
42
II
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1991
another. I guess I deserve something before my time in my life. I'm asking you
people that I deserve the building of this size to only keep my equipment in
halfway decent shape and myself you know so we can work where it's warm and
decent instead of the conditions that we've had to work and trying to make a
living as a self employed excavator. Thank you. ,
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Basically what it boils down to is it's 140 by 80
feet and that segment that sticks out is the office portion there is roughtly 40
by 30. That entails as you're saying Paul 12,000 square foot?
Paul Krauss: That's the calculations that I have. Yes, 12,400.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. And Paul you're saying basically a total storage area not ,
to exceed 5,000 square feet. This was brought before the Courts, the Judge
accepted the 12,400?
Paul Krauss: No sir. The Judge set no limit at all. He asked that a site P lan
be submitted and that we see what we could live with.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay.
Councilman Wing: Has this been to Planning? '
Paul Krauss: Planning Commission did look at the same thing,,and agreed that the
5,000 square foot of storage space was about all they would feel comfortable
with.
Councilwoman Dimler: Paul, did I read that right that this is 6 acres total?
Paul Krauss: The site?
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes. '
Paul Krauss: Yes, I believe that's correct.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. And is this building proposed to be hidden somewhat ,
by trees?
Paul Krauss: No, I don't believe so. 1
Councilwoman Dimler: It's out in the open?
Paul Krauss: Well actually you've got quite an exposed site. There's very 1
. little in the way of trees. On about the fourth page there's a site plan and it
looks like it's.
Councilwoman Dimler: But we're not asking for any landscaping or anything? 11
Paul Krauss: Well again, we weren't recommending that this be approved so we
didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to make this work.
Mayor Chmiel: You do have this building on site right now right?
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'City touncil Meeting - December 9, 1991
Lowell Carlson: Pardon me?
Mayor Chmiel: You have a building on site? One structure. This one 40 x 80.
Lowell Carlson: Yes.
•
Mayor Chmiel: That's an existing building that you have now?
Lowell Carlson: No.
Mayor Chmiel: Oh it isn't.
Lowell Carlson: That was the building that was okayed...Butler Building that
• was okayed...come to the City of Chanhassen and wanted to go look at the
building and okay it to put on that property. That's been what, 6 years, 5
years ago. So this building has been lying there, on my property for 5 or 6
years and this thing's... It was okay at the beginning and I've been to Council
meetings, Planning Commission, planning board meetings...and at that time it was
11 under a special use basis which I was automatically grandfathered in...whole
thing caught fire. And like Paul was not at the courtrooth and the Judge says
okay, if I satisfy, I plead to guilty to storing debris on public property of
' one of those counts that was charged to me so I pleaded guilty to that one. The
Judge agreed that if I satisfactored the City of Chanhassen, clean my place up,
he said he'd see that I'd got the, he'd give me the building if',I did what
II Chanhassen wanted. I have redrew plans. I don't know if he's got one here.
I drew three of them. I gave you a topographic plan. I drew one of them... I
drew a landscaping plan of all the trees. I drew...plan. This is about, I
don't know how many plans on this particular one makes and still there's
' something rotten in Denmark somewhere but anyway. But I've given them
everything that...
I Roger Knutson: To give you a little bit of background. My memory's a little
fuzzy because this goes back a long time. The Council granted Mr. Carlson a
conditional use permit for a contractors yard. I forget exactly what year. A
number of conditions were attached to that approval and they weren't complied
with and numerous letters were sent and calls made requesting compliance and we
didn't get any compliance. The matter was brought to the Council's attention.
A public hearing was held and his conditional use permit was revoked for non-
, compliance with the conditions of approval. And that's pretty rare here.
Lowell Carlson: Why's that?
Roger Knutson: It's rare because we usually work with people and get things
taken care of. Following that, letters followed to Mr. Carlson saying you have
to pull back your business to the scope it was in under your grandfather rights
' and you have to get rid of the junk. We weren't able to get that accomplished
so relunctantly we resorted to litigation and the Judge, again rare, actually
walked the site and you don't find that very often. And he went through and
told Mr. Carlson he had to clean the place up. The result is we're back here
now trying on Planning staff's recommendation for site plan approval. I believe
that building, it's on the site now isn't that correct?
1 Lowell Carlson: Yes.
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City Council Meeting - December 9, 1991
Roger Knutson: It's component piece is on the ground.
Lowell Carlson: Yes. 1
Roger Knutson: And they're weathered pretty hard aren't they?
•
Lowell Carlson: Well, they're all still got...but in any longer number of years
gone by I would say they're going to be... It's an all steel structure.
Roger Knutson: It's a metal building?
Lowell Carlson: Yes.
•
Roger Knutson: Class V floor?
Lowell Carlson: Yes. Except the shop. 1
Councilwoman Dimler: Class V is dirt floor?
Roger Knutson: Gravel. '
Councilman Workman: Well if Mr. Carlson builds this smaller building, then what
have we got? We've still got stuff outside then right? Then we're going to go
to screening.
Paul Krauss: The g
proposal that staff developed said you've got this 5,000
square foot space, that's it. Nothing is stored outside of that. Also I don't
want to speak for the building inspectors but I know they have severe
reservations that that thing is salvageable. I don't know how many years it's
been lying there but I'm not even certain it's a legitimate structure anymore. I
know the building inspector's raised some reservations with it.
Roger Knutson: If I remember right, when it was brought to your site it was not '
a new building right? It was moved in.
Lowell Carlson: ...steel structure. They used it for all the people working
there for, I would say it was 30 years old.
Roger Knutson: So what you have is a building that's had, a metal building
that's had 30 years of use that's now been on the ground in piles for 5 or 6
years or something.
Councilman Workman: We11, can we require that he has to use new construction? 1
Paul Krauss: I think that whatever goes on there has to meet Code and I've got
very serious reservations that that thing will ever meet Code. ,
Councilwoman Dimler: So he couldn't use it?
Paul Krauss: I couldn't say with certainty but I don't think so. ,
Mayor Chmiel: As it shows here with all the items that were removed from the
site or stored in an accessory building, quite a few things that were to have 1
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City Council Meeting - December 9, 1991
1
been gotten rid of. Have most of those been taken care of?
II Lowell Carlson: Pardon me?
Mayor Chmiel: On the items that were listed be removed from the site. Have
II those been dispensed with already?
Lowell Carlson: Yeah. There's a couple items that got snowed in under...
II Mayor Chmiel: That's understandable this time.
Councilman Workman: Well I don't know how to otherwise distinguish between
II
whether 3,000 is enough or not. It doesn't sound like it's enough but I don't,
a square foot building is going to be unbelieveable out there I think. *I
don't know how to.
Mayor Chmiel: It's almost the size of what Cith Hall is right here. Pretty
close. We're 11,000 something.
1 Councilman Workman: I guess I don't see anything that we can do then other than
to approve staff's recommendations and figure something out from there. Now if
you can make a 3,000 square foot building out of what he's got there or how that
1 works. I don't know to follow that but what else do we have to go by?
Councilwoman Dimler: Didn't we pass an ordinance that restricts the size of
1 buildings? Accessory structures.
Paul Krauss: Yeah, but this is under, and again I defer to Roger but this is
I under a court settlement and I think that you have some latitude to do something
other than what the ordinance says. Now I think you should refer to that a
little bit as guidance. Keep in mind here too that we've had complaints from
some of the adjoining property owners for a long time.
1 Councilwoman Dimler: And would you refresh my memory what was the square
footage on what we approved for accessory structures?
1 Paul Krauss: It's 1,000 square feet maximum.
Mayor Chmiel: It becomes a problem really to look at it and see from what he's
II
proposing to do from what the recommendations are. Not to exceed 5,000 square
foot and storage area must consist of building screened outdoor. The building
may not exceed 3,000 square feet. But as Paul said, we don't have to do
1 accordingly. Even a 5,000 square foot, that's 50 x 100 and what do you wind up
with when you're looking at the total size that Mr. Carlson's looking at of
12,400? It's a vast difference. What he's going to do with the balance of the
equipment?
Councilwoman Dimler: Well, I don't know what the answer is but I sure don't
think I want to go beyond the 1,000 that our accessory structure limits
II everybody else to at this point.
Mayor Chmiel: This is a little different case as with what Paul said. Because
II this has been established by the Court so therefore you'd have that ability to
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City Council Meeting - December 9, 1991
make that much of a difference.
Councilwoman Dimler: But that building will be there maybe long after 1
Mr. Carlson has sold it or moved or whatever. I would be relunctant to go
beyond our ordinary ordinance.
Mayor Chmiel: It'd be hard to put a restriction on that as well I would think. 1
To saying that if he were to build a specific size, that something like we did
before with Minnewashta, that house. That building would have to be removed
either upon sale of the property or whatever.
Roger Knutson: Those things are extremely hard to monitor because the City has
no knowledge, when someone sells property, they don't send you a letter saying
we're leaving town.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. No, that's right. ,
Councilman Wing: We have to bear in mind that that's an extremely choice piece
of property. One of the finest pieces of property in Chanhassen so if it gets
sold, it isn't going to be to store machinery. Someone's going to put up a
magnificent home there if Mr. Carlson doesn't.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. That is excellent. '
Lowell Carlson: For instance...what square footage have they got...that was
approved.
Paul Krauss: I honestly don't know that.
Lowell Carlson: ...riding stables or horse barns or whatever. I'm just asking '
if all the neighbors...makes a difference or...
. Mayor Chmiel: That's a good question. Could all that equipment that you have
there be called Mustangs?
Roger Knutson: One thing to bear in mind, many of those buildings may very well
have been there long before your ordinance requirements are in and ordinance
requirements do change. This is a change.
Councilman Wing: The cases I'm aware of, that would be true. Mr. Mayor, I
picture Mr. Carlson, if I could be slightly colorful here, sitting up on the top
of his hill on a horse looking around saying, what's gone wrong. Where did this
change? I mean this is sort of the last frontier and Custard's last stand in
Chanhassen. He has a very labor intensive, very equipment intensive business
and when he moved out there and bought this property, nobody cared, nobody saw
it but it's an extremely prime piece of property. Very exposed and my real
concern almost is more for Mr. Carlson because in the very near future, and I
mean the very near future. Not decades but near future, development and housing
is coming in and every single house - is going to complain. Everybody's going to
want to move the horse stables out.. They're going to want to change it to their
liking and this type of business is not going to fit into that community. So
whether we like it or not or you like it or not, I think you're aware that
progress is going to squeeze you and I out We're just not going to be
47 ,
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1991
1
acceptable anymore. As the guy that builds his house right next to the horse
stable down south and the next day he doesn't like the smell of horses and he
wins. You know we just start shifting the city west and further out and you're
going to get caught up in that so my concern is, you invest money and time in
these buildings and all of a sudden the pressure becomes so great that you
1 simply cannot maintain the business anymore. The restrictions even here are
going to be very curtailing for you with the amount of equipment that you've
got. I just don't see an easy solution for you here. I see nothing but pain
II and trouble for you regardless of what we give because progress is going to be
so against you in the near future. It's disturbing.
Lowell Carlson: Where can you go? I'm only a... That happens to be my
livelihood and this started in 1973 with you people. I mean there comes a time
it's got to come to an end. If we would have built this building in 1973 like
'we were supposed to, a lot of, we wouldn't be here today... I mean I can't just
II keep on all my life being here at Council meetings...a building that was
accepted... They said he'll be at it again...because I didn't have a horse. The
rest of them all got buildings because they had a horse or whatever they had at
' the time. At what part of the smaller building, what sits outside and what
don't? What engine don't start and what boxes don't I need to shovel snow off
of before I get... What equipment sits and what don't? If any of you have got
diesel, sitting outside is pretty near impossible to get them going. You lose
II that much work and you lose that much on a job and the guy ask you why you ain't
there. I'm only trying to make a living.
II Mayor Chmiel: Okay, I guess we're going to have to come up with a conclusion on
this. Is there any other discussion that you'd like?
I Councilman Wing: Would you, I've done business with Mr. Carlson and know him
personally. Could I, would you allow me to bow out of this discussion? Mr.
Workman has taken the words out of my mouth. My heart and brain here aren't
going to come to terms on this.
1 Councilman Mason: That's my line.
1 Councilman Wing: I gave you credit for that. I quoted you.
Councilman Mason: You said Workman.
II Councilman Wing: Excuse me, Mr. Mason. I stand corrected.
Councilman Workman: Mr. Mayor, like I said before, I don't think the Council's
II going to say bo ahead with the 12,000 square foot building. I think we need to
find a happy medium. Median. Medium. Anything less is going to cause Mr.
Carlson irritation and so, I guess without just throwing out an arbitrary
' number, which I think is going to be unfair and that's why the Council's kind of
hemming and hawing on this one. Maybe we should go out there and try to figure
that out. Get a little better. Maybe we need to go out there individually
again. But I don't know what, I have a good idea what this 5,000 square feet
is. It's not a lot considering what he wants so it may not have any relevance
and maybe we're not supposed to care but I don't know how to make a decision.
I guess I can feel my temperature rising and I'm about ready to go home so I'd
II like to make a decision. Maybe we need to table this. I know staff doesn't get
48
City Council Meeting - December 9, 1991
excited about that but maybe we need to, in 1973 I was a young lad.
Councilman Mason: Were you even born then? 1
Councilwoman Dimler: Extremely young. I just wonder about tabling this. This
is our last meeting of the year. It will take us into 1992. '
Mayor Chmiel: Well nothing's going to take place on the site.
Councilwoman Dimler: The Judge left no deadline when this was done?
Mayor Chmiel: No, I don't think there's a deadline on this is there? Roger?
Roger Knutson: The things were supposed to have been done some time ago
, actually but we're the enforcement agency. We bring it back to the Court's
attention. He should have had this done back in September. '
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. I guess I feel things aren't going to get better
and I think staff is looking for some guidance. Tabling isn't going to give
them any guidance.
Councilman Workman: Yeah but I mean to pull an arbitrary square footage.
Councilwoman Dimler: Well we do have an ordinance and that's why I said that ,
earlier that I wouldn't want to go beyond that. .'
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah but 1,000 square feet would be so minimal you couldn't park '
my big toe in there. It's much too small as far as I'm concerned. I make a
suggestion we come up with a conclusion. If you want to table this, that's our
perrogative and we can bring it back. If you want to go out there and maybe
look and see total equipment. Or if you so desire, as I said tabling it, why...
Or come up with a conclusion as to total square footage. I think that the, as
everyone has indicated, the 12,000 square foot would be excessive but there's
got to be something that's going to keep Mr..Carlson in business. But yet as
you look at the 5,000 square feet which is 50 x 100, that's not going to do
anything.
Councilwoman Dimler: That's true. I'm sorry, I was confused. We were not
talking about a commercial building there on the accessory structure. That was
on a residential lot? Okay. Do we have an ordinance then that covers
commercial?
Paul Krauss: It's illegal. ,
Councilwoman Dimler: You can't?
Paul Krauss: No.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay.
Mayor Chmiel: That's why everybody's been wrestling with this since 1973: ,
Councilman Workman: I'm for taking one more look at it.
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City Council Meeting - December 9, 1991
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess in that we'd have to.
Mayor Chmiel: Make the motion.
I Councilman Workman: I move to table this so that Council can get a better grip
on what the square footage needs of Mr. Carlson are and come back the - first
Council meeting in January to make the decision.
II Mayor Chmiel: I'll second it. Any other discussion?
Councilman Workman moved, Mayor Chmiel seconded to table action on the Lowell
I Carlson site plan until the first City Council meeting in January, 1992. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
Lowell Carlson: Let me ask you one thing? What makes the different size is
II what that building is...long as wide. Nobody's going to build to the south of
me. Nobody's building to the west of me because I own property right up to the
west. Nobody down in the corner... The one who caused this problem...yelling
1 and screaming...but anyway. How two people or how two individuals, like I was
just listening to that dog deal you know. If one guy screams, you put the other
guy on the spot really... Anyway, the size to me, the length, this is going to
be to front...if-it happens. Whatever's :going to happen. It's only in length.
And to screen...
Mayor Chmiel: The other thing that bothers me a little bit about it Lowell is
I whether or not that existing building will even be in conformance with the Codes
as well at this time.
I Lowell Carlson: The Code, what I'd say...
Mayor Chmiel: State Building Inspector?
II Lowell Carlson: So that was always, it was Code when Tonka Toys had it because
all the people as far as...that thing was awful good construction...and
whatever. I called the Butler people and at that time it started way back on
I the snow loads and whatever...
Mayor Chmiel: More than likely you're going to see some of us there just taking
a look see.
Lowell Carlson: Okay...
II Councilman Wing: Lowell, before you commit a lot of money to this, I urge you
to remember my comments that you're the largest contractor lot in the Upper
Midwest right now right in the middle of progress. I mean progress is targeted
I at your lot. I'm concerned about you putting a big investment into something
that isn't going to be feasible for the future.
Lowell Carlson: I hear you. What happened to Mr. Wolf. I was at the same
time...it was farm land. That was all...but 1 never could understand...whatever
happened. Things just happened in the area and like I say, I've been there
since 1973 and he bought that property out there 10 years ago. I was here when
II it was still a township. Whatever. .
1 50
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City Council Meeting - December 9, 1991
Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, I'd also encourage Lowell to sit down with building
inspectors using 1991 codes to fihd out what's involved with that. To correct
one of the misconceptions. I think Roger was asking whether it was going to be
a gravel floor. I think a gravel floor is illegal these days. We had to pave
the floor in our maintenance shed and put in grease traps in there because of
all the equipment we have.
Mayor Chmiel: Even in our own buildings.
Lowell Carlson: Shop floor. The shop will be all that.
Paul Krauss: Right and it would have to have grease trap drains and you'll have
to maintain those.
Lowell Carlson: As far as me blacktopping the inside of there...
Paul Krauss: I don't know if it is or isn't but I encourage you to sit down
with the inspectors.
Mayor Chmiel: Lowell, why don't you come in and talk to our inspectors and have
them go out there and you can take a look see at that particular building. See
if its even acceptable.
Lowell Carlson: Okay, that's the third building permit...This one here was a
pretty high priced building. •
APPOINTMENTS TO COMMISSIONS:
A. PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION.
B. PLANNING COMMISSION.
C. SOUTHWEST METRO TRANSIT COMMISSION.
Mayor Chmiel: I understand that we do have a Council person, starting with item
(c) who would like to serve on the Southwest Metro Transit Commission. Mike has
indicated that he would and I would like to go backwards on this particular one
and start out with Mike because I've got someone's who... '
Councilman Workman: I'd move approval of that.
Councilman Wing: Second. '
Councilman Mason: Can I check with my wife first?
Mayor Chmiel: No. Any discussion?
Councilman Workman: Mr. Mayor, yes and there is, and maybe Ursula's going to
get to it.
Councilwoman Dimier: I was just going to say it but go ahead. 1
Councilman Workman: No, please go ahead.
1
51 1
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