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A Ice Skating ProgramCITY OF CHANHASSEN 7700 B/larket Boulevard PO Box 14/ Chanhassen MN 55317 Administration Pho'~e: 9522271 !00 Fax 9522271110 Building Inspections Phome 952 227 1!80 Fax: 9522271190 Engineering Phcqe 952227 1160 Fax 952 227 1170 Finance Pqc;l',,e; 9522271140 Fax 952 2271110 Park a Recreation Phme! 9522271120 Fix: 952 2271!10 Retreat om Ceqter 2310 Cou ter Boulevard Pi~cme 952 227 1400 Fax: 9522271404 Planning a Natural Resources Pho/(: 9522271130 Fax 952 22? 1110 Public Works 1591 Park R{aad Phomc: 952 227 1300 Fax 952 2271310 Senior Center P ~or, e 952 2271125 Fax 952 227 1~10 Web Site we, v,, ci cqanhassen rrm.us TO: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Dir FROM: DATE: SUB J: Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent ~,,% October 15, 2003 2003/2004 Ice Rink Season The City of Chanhassen's outdoor rinks will be open from approximately December 13 through February 15, weather permitting. Flooding will begin the first or second week in December, depending on the weather. The warming houses will be open Monday through Friday, 4:00 - 9:00 p.m.; Saturday, 10:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m.; and Sunday, 1:00 p.m. - 7:00 p.m. Portable trailers will be placed at North Lotus Park and City Center Park. Permanent warming houses are located at the Chanhassen Recreation Center and the Roundhouse, now that the building has been renovated. After last winter's warm weather and poor skating conditions, our department reassessed the outdoor rink policies and procedures. As you recall, only locations with warming houses and hockey/pleasure finks were maintained. The decision was made to concentrate on these main rinks because traditionally, they have had the highest number of users. Through this process, a rink flooding policy that established guidelines was developed. The policy is as follows: Ice Skating Policy Concerning Rink Flooding The following departmental policy concerning nnk flooding has been developed to better guide our department in establishing calendar dates of when it is appropriate or not appropriate to flood skating rinks. Opening Skating Date Flooding Policy December 20th or before December 21 st _ January 10th Flood all rinks established for the calendar year Flood rinks at Roundhouse Park, City Center Park, Chanhassen Recreation Center and North Lotus Lake Park or (warming house locations only) January 1 Ith or after Cancel season The City of Chanhassen · A ,;iro',~ng c3r,~rnuni~y ',~ith c~arq lakes quali!v schools, a charming do;vnto,a,,f~ thriving businesses wind no iraiis a~d beautiful parks A oreat pi ~,:s,,, to l,'u ,',,;,rk ird play Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director 11/7/2003 Page 2 The Park and Recreation Commission reviewed the skating fink locations and policies at length last season. It was the Commissioner's recommendation that all the pleasure and hockey rinks be flooded and that attempts be made to gather attendance numbers at the pleasure finks that did not have warming house attendants. The warm weather prohibited the non-warming house pleasure finks to be flooded, thus no attendance numbers were collected. Staff is in favor of flooding all pleasure and hockey finks for the 2003/04 season. STAFF RECOMMENDATION Staff is recommending that warming house locations be maintained at the Chanhassen Recreation Center, City Center Park, Roundhouse Park, and North Lotus Park for the upcoming season. Rinks proposed for these locations would include two hockey rinks and one pleasure rink at the Chanhassen Recreation Center; one hockey rink and one pleasure rink at City Center Park; one hockey fink and one pleasure rink at North Lotus Park, and one pleasure rink at Roundhouse Park. Staff also recommends that pleasure rinks at Minnewashta Heights, Pheasant Hills, Carver Beach, Meadow Green, Rice Marsh, Sunset Park, and Chanhassen Hills also be maintained. This totals fifteen finks for the 2003/04 season. Staff also recommends that the Park and Recreation Commission adopt the Skating Rink Flooding Policy outlined in the memorandum. STAFF UPDATE (11-7-03) The 2003/3004 ice fink season was discussed at the October 28 Park and Recreation Commission meeting. The Commission discussed the pros and cons of flooding and maintaining the finks identified in staff's recommendation. The commission felt very strongly that the neighborhood finks didn't have high participation numbers and that only the rinks that have warming houses should be maintained. In addition, the Commission recommended that a fink and warming house be added to Bandimere Community Park for the 2004/2005 season to service residents in southern Chanhassen. Staff would like to discuss the Commission's recommendations with the City Council during the work session on November 24, 2003. G:\parkXrinksX2003-04 Ice Rink Season Memo CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 28, 2003 Chairman Franks called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Rod Franks, Glenn Stolar, Amy O'Shea, Jack Spizale, and Tom Kelly MEMBERS ABSENT: Susan Robinson and Paula Atkins STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent; APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Glenn Stolar asked that staff provide an update on the budget process under reports, and Amy O'Shea asked to discuss user fees. Todd Hoffinan stated he would provide an update on the City Hall lower level remodeling project and City Center Park construction. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Kelly moved, Spizale seconded to approve the verbatim and summary minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated September 23, 2003 as presented. Ali voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. ESTABLISH 2003/04 ICE SKATING AND HOCKEY RINK PROGRAM. Ruegemer: Thank you Todd and Chair Franks. Rest of the commission. Good evening. I wanted to bring this again to the Park and Rec Commission. We did talk about this item at length last year. I wanted to bring this forward again tonight, this evening to shed some new light on the upcoming season. The rinks are scheduled to be open again December 13th through February 15th, and with the flooding beginning the first or second week in December, depending on the weather and if it's appropriate to flood. The warming houses again will remain open again Monday through Friday, 4:00 to 9:00 and Saturday, 10:00 in the morning until 9:00 at night, and Sundays from 1:00 to 7:00. Portable trailers again will be located at North Lotus Lake Park and City Center Park. This year we eliminated one warming house trailer. With the new round house renovation, it is our hope to use that as a warming house this winter, and also then with the Chanhassen Recreation Center obviously is a full blown, very nice warming house and out building for our use. Last year in early December it was relatively cold. We started flooding all the rinks, as you recall. Our warm up came right before, about the first couple weeks in December, right after we flooded all the rinks. Warm up, kind of pretty much, we went back to ground zero again as you recall. Last year we had talked about developing kind of a procedure with guidelines to kind of guide us through those warm weather types of situations. Located down below is a policy that we developed to hopefully guide our department and kind of take away some of that guessing. What I'd like the commission to do tonight is to take a look at the policy. If there's any changes that need to be made. Now staff's recommendation that the Park and Rec Commission adopt this policy. That we can put it into place and publish if we need to. That way it's kind of black and white, here it is. That way we don't get into situations, you know Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 what rinks we flood. What rinks don't we flood, that sort of thing so hopefully it's clear enough. It gives us I think some clear direction that we can show the public and really have a good policy put into place. As you can see, December 20th or before, flood all rinks as established and adopted by the commission on an annual basis. December 21st through January l0th, flood rinks and that's basically the warming house locations where we kind of get our most bang for the buck. That we can have a place for people to stay warm and skate and more concentrate on those locations versus neighborhood locations. And then after January 11th, or after, we would cancel the season due to really as we've talked about in the past, really our main focus has been to get the rinks going before the holiday break when kids are off for the most part, and that really is where we get a lot of our use during that time. After January llth, it's such a short season anyway, we figure that date would be really a good date that we just would, it's not worth the efforts of getting those up and going again. I would find that odd that we wouldn't flood by January 11th, but stranger things have happened, certainly in our climate and weather. We did review this at length last year. It was the commissioner's recommendation at that point that we flood all the pleasure and hockey rinks. And then I guess we'd go back then and I do have forms that we kind of developed back then with the schedules. We had commissioners scheduled at these particular locations that were rinks that did not have warming house attendants. As soon as we had all that established, schedules out, it got warm again and we didn't flood so that really was kind of a moot point last year and I kind of, I guess I'm waiting I guess for direction from the commission this evening as to what direction you'd like to go in that certain operation again. So concluding, it's staff's recommendation that the warming house locations be maintained at the Chanhassen Rec Center, City Center Park, Roundhouse Park and North Lotus Lake Park for the upcoming season. And then it goes on to conclude kind of what rinks are included at those locations. This also, staff recommendation that we include the flooding of the pleasure rinks at Minnewashta Heights, Pheasant Hills, Carver Beach, Meadow Green, Rice Marsh, Sunset Ridge, and Chanhassen Hills, and that would total 15 rinks for the 2003-2004 season. And then it also, then we touched upon policy that I touched on briefly, previously like that and I also would like the commission to review that this evening and make necessary changes and then make a recommendation to staff and to approve that policy. Franks: Thank you. What we'll do Jerry, if you just want to hang with us for a minute, is see if there's any questions from commission members. Jack? Spizale: How many less rinks are we flooding than last year then? Ruegemer: This would be the full gamut again as we have in the past. Last year we only flooded the warming house locations, which was North Lotus, City Center, Roundhouse and who am I missing? North Lotus, City Center Park, Roundhouse and the Rec Center, four. Spizale: So according to this we'd be flooding everything that. Ruegemer: We would, and that's what the commission wanted to do after last year's discussions to do those and then collect data. Kind of like going out at certain times throughout the course of, well this was over the course of December, January and then into February. Last year I had the schedule and the forms here with the hopes of kind of collecting that information and then having some information or data to then make a bigger decision on the fate of the rinks. Spizale: It's a shame we didn't get a chance to get into it last year but it sounds like we're supposed to get a real winter this year. Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Ruegemer: It sure looks that way. And just also I failed to mention that just on the attachment in the report...amenities, addresses and then on the back side, that is dots represent I guess the locations of the rinks kind of spread out through Chanhassen. Spizale: That's all I got. Franks: Thank you Jack. Amy. O'Shea: Okay I have two questions. Jerry, last year you proposed that you'd like to see the 7 rinks closed. What has changed in your mind from last year to this year with your thinking? Ruegemer: In my mind I really think the policy kind of steered me in the right direction, that we have some guidelines that we have put forth in front of us that kind of takes away the guessing game of what is it going to be. Also I think it seems like it's, I really was confident that you guys would take a look at that and either we do this again and give us really a full season to evaluate into the future, plus just again hearing from certain individuals from various parks that would like to see their rinks back again. So in my opinion, I don't know if they really got a fair shake was kind of given last year after we made the recommendation to flood all the rinks, collect the data and then we couldn't because of the weather so I really wanted to go forth in kind of a positive fashion and see, you know where we need to go. O'Shea: Okay, and then my second question and last one is, with the flooding policy, those dates are, and I might just be missing this. That's if it's warm weather, this is what the schedule will follow, right? Ruegemer: Right. O'Shea: So if it's still warm and the rinks aren't freezing very well, on December 21st it would just go to those indicated on the policy? Ruegemer: Yeah, certainly there's, certainly we have to kind of play those situations out and decide that, you know either through the commission or departmentally, but this is, I think this gives us a pretty good foundation with that and you could pretty much tell before Christmas or the holiday break and that kind of what direction it would go. O'Shea: But that's what those dates are saying? If it's warm weather, this is the policy we'll. Ruegemer: Correct, because it really is our, and we certainly want to be responsible and put our efforts and financial means into situations that's going to be I guess responsible and that's really why after those certain dates we want to concentrate on the rinks that are going to see hopefully the most use. O'Shea: Okay, thanks. Franks: Tom? Kelly: I don't have any questions. Franks: Glenn? Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Stolar: Let' s see, I have a couple. One, I noticed that there are no rinks south of Lyman, and then if we fall into this trap of the policy there will be none south of the Rec Center. So I guess one question would be, would it make, or would it be prudent but I'm asking your judgment, to hit one site south of the Rec Center just to cover that area of Chan, even afterwards. Otherwise it all falls like pretty much 5 and above. So that was my only concern is that, because I agree with your approach but at some point we're eliminating a good chunk of the city geography wise. I don't know if it's population wise but certainly geography wise. Ruegemer: I don't know if Glenn, if you were on the commission at the time we discussed this a couple years ago where we had discussed putting a rink possibly in the parking lots of Bandimere Park and we haven't, we have not to this point revisited that idea again. We somewhat lose park locations kind of in that southern part and southwestern part of the city. That doesn't mean that we can't find, try to find a location but typically it has been focused more so on the north side with the population. Stolar: Sure. I guess my thought would be that we consider after the 20~ potentially doing one of the southern sites just so that, let's say it does turn out to be nice weather starting the 21st or 22nd, you still have a good chunk of the holiday time that we can cover that area, so I understand these are guidelines so I guess this is just feedback that as we look at that, we might want to consider say like potentially Chanhassen Hills be considered for if the weather tums, that we're able to flood one of those. And then my other question was, the week of the 20th, I understand that coincides with break, but again if the weather tums to be more favorable for flooding, we have a couple weeks of break. So we might want to consider those dates a little bit flexible. I understand we have to deal with your staff' s holiday schedule also, be cognizant of that but. Ruegemer: Well their scheduled regardless and it's basically a phone call to cancel, or cancel the group, but certainly the dates are, I won't call them soft dates but I would certainly like to have some guidelines put into place that we can kind of base those decisions on a policy. Stolar: And logically surrounding that, if we can get it done before the holidays, let's do everything. If we can't, then let's focus more, and I agree with those guidelines but as long as we're a little bit flexible, and if it turns out that a day later it's nice weather, we can go ahead and do it. Or weather for flooding. Franks: Nice for flooding. Stolar: Nice for flooding. Hoffman: There's always that lag time in there too. Once you start flooding, it's 10 days before you have a rink. Stolar: Oh okay, that makes sense too. Because then you aren't getting into almost New Year's by that time. Okay. Franks: What is the approximate cost for like setting up and maintaining the pleasure rinks? Ruegemer: I don't have those offthe top of my head. Do you recall? Franks: I mean in a typical kind of season. Hoffman: What do you want to include in your costs? Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Franks: Well, you know there's definitely there's the, I'm assuming one of the biggest costs is the over time on the park maintenance crew for flooding. And I mean if we wanted to get really technical, we could work in the equipment usage as well. Hoffman: Last time we calculated it was for budget purposes for the council and it included labor. The equipment, the water and as far as I recall, it was right around $5,000. Franks: For pleasure, that's about what I remember too. Alright. Hoffman: And a good portion of that is the appreciation on the vehicles, fuel and then labor. Franks: Now as far as the budgeting for 03-04 season, has the all 11 rinks, including not only the warming house rinks but all the pleasure rinks, has that been budgeted? Was that budgeted? Ruegemer: Yes it was. Franks: And does that come out of what, the operating? Ruegemer: The warming houses and the warming house attendants comes out of our recreation program budget, 1600. Overtime for flooding rinks and those types of expenditures would come out of the park maintenance. Franks: Park maintenance. Okay. Are there any other questions? Kelly: Yeah I do have a question. I apologize. Franks: Go ahead. Kelly: You mentioned something a couple years ago about setting up a rink in Bandimere Park. Do you have the same cost structure as flooding any one of these other pleasure rinks or because it would be a new rink there'd be more cost associated with that? Ruegemer: Well certainly going into that type of situation, if I were to have to put some type of barrier between the parking lot and the rink itself, whether it be boards of some sort, it'd be kind of hard without some type of a structure to capture the water versus flooding it right on the asphalt itself. You know the possibility maybe to flood it on Field Number I that has an angle iron type of infield to do that. That we could do that type of situation where we keep the water on top of that. That would be a possibility. Kelly: Now I was wondering just because I know it's a lot more parking there than any of the neighborhoods so I'm just wondering if it wouldn't make sense to replace site 11 with Bandimere. Unless it's not, I mean their proximity is really close. It was just a thought. Hoffman: Good thought. Something to consider. Franks: Any other questions? If there aren't any more questions then we'll pull it back for comments. Stolar: Jerry, did you want us to do the survey this year? Or try to do some sort of survey. Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Ruegemer: That is certainly up to the commission, if you would like, I think we talked about empirical data last year. If the commission would like to have some information to kind of base that. We as a staff certainly can go out during the flooding process with our park maintenance staff and on a daily basis and check those rinks and kind of keep track on it as we have in the past. As far as a couple skate marks or you know kind of gauge the activity of that. We certainly can do that. I think it was the commission's wish last year to really go when the park maintenance crews were not out on the rinks at various times throughout the course of the weekends to see kind of what types of activities. Have some data to back that up to kind of base your decision on progressing with those locations. Franks: Okay. Any other comments Glenn? Stolar: No. Franks: Tom, comments? Kelly: I've got to, I mean I like what you said about we made a commitment to the residents last year to try the study. Weather didn't cooperate so it's almost like, I feel there's almost a responsibility for us to keep good on our word from last year and give it a year. So I hadn't thought about it in that terms until what you said. I was more leaning towards let's just do a few of them but I thought what you said made a lot of sense so that' s my only comment. Franks: Amy. O'Shea: My comments, because last year I was the one that said we needed harder data and statistics and then I was thinking, you know two years now in a row we haven't opened those so maybe it would be a good time to, because you felt so strongly that your statistics were solid on just low use, so I was surprised when ! saw your recommendation to open them after 2 years. So one, I guess I would like to still get some hard data. Not hard data but at different times that you're not capable to do with your staff, that we would volunteer to just get some numbers to get, and the only thing I would like to see if we do open those again, that the community, after being closed for 2 years, that that's really well communicated that if the numbers aren't there, we will close in 2004-2005 because I think if we open them now and then in a year later we were to close them, it's going to look really, if we don't communicate what happened, it's going to look real wishy washy. Alright, well they were closed for 2 years. You open them for a year. Not you take them away so I think if we communicate to remind them why they were closed for 2 years, and we're collecting usage numbers and if the numbers don't meet the minimum, we're just going to have to close some or all, depending on, is that possible to do to communicate? Do you think? Ruegemer: We certainly can do that. I know we had talked about last year that we necessarily didn't want to attach this to numbers because numbers can be doctored. As far as people coming out and, we just want to make sure that I think it seems like the people I've talked to in Pheasant Hills and Minnewashta area are certainly have a genuine interest in getting their rinks back. We talked about last year, ! think the neighborhoods are changing over in some locations. You know some have not skated in the past are being replaced with younger families that are looking for a rink so, but we certainly can communicate that to the neighborhoods. O'Shea: Okay, good. Thanks. Franks: Jack, any comments? Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Spizale: I agree, I think we should give it one more chance, Like I had said earlier, I think we're supposedly supposed to get a real winter this winter. It's a chance to test it out. And I think the idea of us going out and getting some of that data ourselves is good because it gives us a chance to go to the parks ourselves. See what' s going on and talk to any people that are there, if we have a chance to and get a feel for what's going on. That's all. Franks: Not to find myself in the minority again this year, but I was a little surprised too by kind of the reversal on the position and I would still be of the mind to advocate closing the neighborhood pleasure rinks and only maintaining rinks where we are able to site a warming house. And a couple of reasons for that. One is, fortunately how the weather over the last two years has helped us out in not really having active pleasure rinks, and you know I think not that we've gotten used to it but we've almost gotten used to not having them. And then just from observation myself, considering like a rink like Chan Hills or Sunset Ridge where you have to park. Walk down a path and get to the rink. It's not like you can sit in your car and put your skates on or whatever. There's no warming house. I just don't think those rinks are going to get used. They're going to be there. They're going to look great. I don't think they're going to get used. When we look at it, if we're talking $5,000 apiece for a pleasure site. Neighborhood pleasure rink, I mean we could be saving ourselves upwards of $35,000 this year. In some ways to me that strikes me as, in this era of diminishing resources and thinking about the conversations we've had as a commission the last couple of meetings, and the importance of how we're going to allocate our resources, I think that we could do a little bit more with $35,000 than take a shot on opening up neighborhood ice rinks without warming houses. You talked about getting the data again and I'll say it again, I think I said it last year and maybe even the year before too. We've been down that road over and over again and we've constantly been frustrated with our attempts to get meaningful data just because it's so difficult to acquire it. And then we're always left, that's why I think we're still asking the question is because you know this might just be data that we just can't get. That would be my feeling on it so I would be in favor of not opening up the neighborhood pleasure rinks and only maintaining ice at sites 1, 8, 7 and 5 where we're able to site a warming house. And I would also be in favor in considering at some point in the future opening up a site with warming house at Bandimere Park. That just seems to make sense to me. I don't know if we'd be capable of doing that this year or not. It sounds like as far as technology we wouldn't be able to set something up, but I think we should spend the next year really taking a look at what would be necessary to set up a really good rink at Bandimere. Stolar: But I thought you said, don't we have a trailer possibility or is it too late for that? Ruegemer: Well during the 2003 budget cycle we certainly did budget a trailer for the Roundhouse, so as far as the money is accounted for in this year's budget for a trailer. If we don't need one at Roundhouse, then we only needed 2 trailers and we had budgeted for 3. Franks: Well my feeling then, I guess I didn't understand that. Thanks Glenn for clarifying. My feeling then would then be to close the neighborhood pleasure rinks and open up a rink with a warming house at Bandimere, Ruegemer: Can I interject? Franks: Yeah. Ruegemer: One thing to consider is we don't have any type of light source at this point at Bandimere and/or power for a warming house. That's something we can probably incorporate Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 though and get that hopefully going in a relatively short time period here but that's something, certainly something staff can investigate. In getting that together. Kelly: There is a power source at Bandimere. Ruegemer: There is power but we need 220 power to run the heaters for the warming houses. So it's something we never had to be trenched before the frost goes in the ground in a couple weeks. And/or some type of a light source put in. Franks: Alright. Are there any other comments? Stolar: I do have one other question. You mentioned a couple things, and it seems like there's some more detail here that might be helpful in making a decision. One is accessibility and parking to make it easy to use some of these neighborhood sites, and you know some of it obviously is people in the neighborhoods just walking to it. And then the second question I have is just, you look at kind of the bunching here, right. There are two neighborhood sites that are fairly close proximity to some warming house sites versus you know again I go to south and there's nothing there. I'm wondering if there's a happy medium here where we try some neighborhood parks where the access is... Franks: Then we have one neighborhood that's you know getting a rink and then another one that isn't, and why, since we had one before are we not getting one and you are. And so I guess kind of the way that I'm thinking is, look if we site these in geographically or in the main park area like Roundhouse, City Center, you know the Rec Center and Bandimere, we're really looking at the more, not just neighborhood park settings but community park settings and we're installing a warming house. Kind of setting it up, this is really a city amenity, not just a neighborhood amenity. Stolar: The only thing I would add to that is, and though Roundhouse is unique because it actually has a physical warming house right there, but North Lotus Lake, which is the one I would use, that is a neighborhood park. It just happens to be identified, it has a built in rink already, but it is classified as a neighborhood park, isn't it? Franks: Right, and we looked at Roundhouse and North Lotus as a little bit unique because of the geographic separation from the rest of the city. One is Lake Minnewashta for Roundhouse and then of course Lotus Lake for North Lotus so we're making some concession there, but that was the thinking anyway. I mean it seems to make sense I think. Stolar: Yeah, and all I would actually be talking about is if we did a Bandimere or something south, and then we did number 3, which is kind of in the middle there. The rest of them seem like they're, actually where would Bandimere fall in here? Ruegemer: Bandimere would be right here. Stolar: Okay, so it's pretty close to where those other sites are. Hoffman: Something to remember with Bandimere and Site 11, which is Chanhassen Hills is Chanhassen Hills has been outfitted with a skating rink light. Franks: Right, and power. 8 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Stolar: Just so we've got south covered. Get straight north covered with 3, and some of these others are already permanent there, and that's 6 sites. Ruegemer: And the commission certainly can revise that list if they choose to tonight and certainly make recommendations to flood certain locations. Stolar: My only concern is if we go to just the 4 sites, then a big chunk of population doesn't have anything. O'Shea: The other thing I, oh can I throw something out? Franks: Go right ahead. O'Shea: The other thing ! noticed too is, a lot of neighborhoods that have wetlands have taken it upon themselves to flood their own rinks, which I think is a plus plus for the community. And they run water on them. They shovel them. They even have strung lights on some. I want to see that continue because I don't think the city could afford to put up that many rinks, so that's why again when I saw that you recommended to keep them all open, even though I was a real advocate to try it last year. This year I was going to come in and say you know, let's just have the warming, like Rod just stated. Let's just have the warming houses open because the neighborhoods seem to be taking care of themselves and then the kids can run in the house and be warm. That it seems that, and I was going on your statistics that you felt that they were pretty strong. That after 2 years of being closed would be the best time to not to re-open, because that's why I mentioned before, you know we don't want to look wishy washy. Two years they're closed, and then we open and then if the numbers aren't there, we close. So ! think maybe I'm leaning now towards more with Rod of warming house locations and keeping it at that and then, because I do think people haven't just quit skating. They have found alternatives in the last 2 years and I think the change has taken place, I think the hardest thing to convince people is to change. So nature has taken care of that for us because they made their own accommodations so I'd hate to then re-introduce something and then have it taken away and then they'd have to go back to a change. So that's why I'm leaning towards just staying with 4 or 5 locations with warming houses that are strategically placed and leaving it at that. I hope that didn't sound too wishy washy, and I know I was real strong on it last year, but again having them closed for 2 years and thinking what you said last year, how strongly you felt they should be closed. Seven should be closed. Before I got your packet I was thinking well you know what, let's go with Jerry. And then when ! opened it, I thought oh my goodness, he's gone my way that I wanted to go last year and now I'm going to go the other way. So that's. Stolar: Your strategy's working Jerry. O'Shea: I'll catch on next time. But that's why I'm leaning towards, does that make sense? So I need to, the residents have made the change already and I'd hate to reintroduce them and then in a year take them away again, because ! think they'll forget why they were closed for 2 years. That's why I mentioned before we really have to make sure we communicate what happened. Hoffman: All except for a couple people will not forget. O'Shea: Yeah, but and again, yeah if it's just a couple people then it would prove that the numbers are Iow. Hoffman: A couple of advocates will be around. 9 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 O'Shea: Yeah, but anyway that's my thinking. Hoffman: Chair Franks, if I could add, picking up on Commissioner Stolar's question about the budget. One of the items that is considered in our proposed operating budget, includes 10 percent cuts to our operating budget. Two of those items include the reduction of temporary seasonal labor by $12,600. That would eliminate all warming house attendants. The second is a cut of $4,600, or at least a proposed elimination that would eliminate all warming houses. All of the structures themselves. By eliminating the outside rinks, you're not going to save this money because the warming houses are still there. The attendants are still there. But you do start to modify the budget concerning staffing and labor because as we continue to compress our budgets, we're finding less time to do all the necessary work for the community so there is some savings in the labor force. But, and there are other communities across the metropolitan region that have completely eliminated their ice skating rink programs due to budgetary concerns so I just want to bring that to the commission' s attention as you continue to deliberate over this item. O'Shea: Do you have budgeted to heat the round house? Ruegemer: I guess what the thought was, was that we would have to pay for that monies out of the monies that we budgeted in the 2003-2004 budget for the warming house. For not paying for the trailer. That sort of thing, that we can allocate that money then towards some type of heating source. Hoffman: Baseboard heat, electric service. Ruegemer: We're kind of going into, that situation similar to what we did in the Rec Center. We had to have, when it first opened we had to have a full year. The next year's budget done before it even opened up the doors for this year so we're kind of in the same situation with round house. We don't really know how much power's going to be but we'd certainly like to address that in the future. Stolar: Just another quick question, just to clarify something. Is Chanhassen Hills Park capable of housing a warming house, a trailer? Hoffman: We had one there in the past. Stolar; Okay. And then these budget cuts, if those go through, this is all moot because we're closing all the rinks anyway. Hoffman: Correct. O'Shea: Wait, say that again? What did you just say? Stolar: Well if those budget cuts go through we're closing down the warming houses. Would we still flood the rinks, it's just there will be no warming house? Ruegemer: There would not be warming houses or warming house attendants. And it was my recommendation when I did that was to maintain the neighborhood rinks. Hoffman: Put ice out but no warming houses and no attendants. 10 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Stolar: So if we got rid of the warming, the exterior rinks, the neighborhood rinks that don't have warming houses, attendant, I thought you said we couldn't use that money then to. Hoffman: It's just labor cost. It's already there. Those are full time employees with some overtime wages that would be saved in salary but you can't transfer that money out and start using somewhere else. Franks: But that later on would be used to bond other projects that just aren't being taken care of throughout the year. Hoffman: Correct. O'Shea: So just redirected. Well I'm leaning towards just leaving the 4 with warming houses as is and not even adding another warming house spot. So there we go. Franks: Well there's two ways to go. I mean there's two ways to go. We can kind of lay them out. One is to go along with the recommendation from staff which is to really flood the city with rinks, so to speak. The other one is to really stick with just opening up and maintaining the sites that have a warming house. And then there's the additional idea that's come up that either this year or next year, my proposition would be that next year we work in the warming house site at Bandimere and then really stick to just 5 rink sites. Stolar: And a fourth option of not the warming house but flooding number 11 just to cover that area. Franks: With the option of just flooding number 11, sure. Since it's got the light. Stolar: Of the 3 down there, that's the one that's probably the most conducive, infrastructurally. Ruegemer: Correct. O'Shea: Can you remind, is that the one though that had the least amount of usage? Franks: One of them that had the least amount of usage, correct. Ruegemer: Correct. Franks: And I think the reason for that is one, it's kind of tucked away. And two, the parking is a fair distance from where the rink actually is. O'Shea: At Chanhassen Hills? Franks: Yeah. Stolar: Oh, that is one that has the parking issue that you were. Hoffman: If you look at your map and you draw squares around site 1, 8, 7 and 5, all the warming houses, it really services the core of the city and I know you're struggling with the 7 park but 1 takes care of the west. 5 takes care of the northeast. 8 and 7 are both in the heart of the city. Very accessible and it's just whether or not you want people to drive up 101 to City Center or Bandimere in the south. 11 Park and Rec Commission - October 28, 2003 Franks: Not that much of a trek to get from Springfield up to the City Center Park. Stolar: No it's not. Franks: Or from Chan Hills either. I mean that' s, how many times a day do all us do that? Stolar: Right. But there are a lot of houses down there.., Franks: And it's going to continue to develop more south of 5. That's why I think we should really be prepared to open up a rink at Bandimere, because there's North Bay, Springfield, and the development south of Pioneer Trail there too on the south side of Lake Riley. Hoffman: Yeah, if you want to plan for a rink at Bandimere, we should do some capital planning. Franks: Right. Like power. Hoffman: I think people feel much more at home during the evening in a winter in a community park where there's sufficient parking, lighting to accommodate use. They don't feel like they're intruding on a neighborhood recreational services. Franks: Well is anybody interested in making a stab at a motion? O'Shea: I can try to throw one out and we can, I'll just add, but I would recommend that we accept staff's policy concerning flooding of rinks when warm weather is happening, and that we flood the four rinks, Roundhouse, North Lotus Lake, City Center Park and Chan Rec Center where there are warming houses for the 2003-2004 season. With the possibility of adding Bandimere as a warming house site and rinks site in 2004-2005. Franks: Okay. Well, there's a motion before us. Is there a second? Stolar: Second. Franks: It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion? O'Shea moved, Stolar seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to accept the warm weather flooding policy as presented, and to recommend to flood only the four rinks, Roundhouse Park, North Lotus Lake Park, City Center Park and Chan Rec Center where there are warming houses for the 2003-2004 season, with the possibility of adding Bandimere as a warming house site and rink site in the 2004-2005 season. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. ESTABLISH RULES GOVERNING THE USE OF BICYCLES~ IN-LINE SKATES~ SCOOTERS, AND SKATEBOARDS; CITY CENTER PARK. Todd Hoffman: Chair Franks, members of the commission. It was quite evident that this policy would need to be discussed and approved by both the commission and the City Council prior to our opening of the park in the spring. The City Center Park Commons, or plaza has been a very popular location throughout the construction for the kids from the skate park and just downtown in general to try out all of these different types of vehicles on the variety of obstacles that were in 12